Season 1, Episode 3: Why Does It Feel So Wrong to Take the Afternoon Off?

Episode Description:

Ever feel guilty for stepping away from work before 5 p.m.—even when you’ve met your goals? You’re not alone.

In this insightful episode of Why Does It Feel So Wrong to Be Human at Work?, hosts Pinaki Kathiari and Chris Lee take a hard look at how we've been conditioned to treat time as the ultimate currency—and why that’s no longer serving us. From personal stories to historical deep-dives, they break down the emotional and cultural baggage tied to “leaving early,” and how organizations can create healthier, more human-first time policies.

They explore:

• Why the traditional 9–5 workday feels outdated in a knowledge economy
• The roots of time = money thinking, and how it drives guilt
• The psychological effects of overwork, burnout, and performance optics
• The cultural gap between policy and practice (unlimited PTO, 4-day workweeks, etc.)
• How trust and autonomy lead to more purpose-driven employees
• What managers and leaders can do to create a truly flexible work environment

From bartering wheat to tracking hours with timecards, to tracking outcomes over presence, this episode makes the case for trust as the new workplace currency.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 – Pandemic flexibility and #DisrespectTheNineToFive
• 05:00 – First time playing hooky: Wolverine 2 and peanut M&Ms
• 10:00 – Selling time vs. selling outcomes: Where do we stand now?
• 15:00 – Workplace guilt and why flexibility still feels “wrong”
• 20:00 – Historical breakdown: Why we started measuring work in hours
• 25:00 – The rise of salaries, the power dynamic of compensation
• 30:00 – Unlimited PTO, performance pressure, and cultural mismatch
• 35:00 – Agency burnout and expectations around overwork
• 40:00 – 4-day workweeks: Myths, research, and Nixon’s prediction
• 47:00 – Chronotypes, circadian rhythms, and Daniel Pink’s science of timing
• 52:00 – Why failure is part of outcomes—and why leadership needs to allow for it
• 58:00 – Managers vs. leaders: Trust, autonomy, and rethinking control
• 01:05:00 – Friday joy vs. Sunday scaries: What that tells us about our jobs
• 01:10:00 – Practical takeaways: What to stop, keep, and explore
• 01:15:00 – Hashtag your time off: #WhyDoesItFeelSoWrong

Books & Resources:

When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing by Daniel Pink

The Confidence Code by Katty Kay & Claire Shipman

Four-Day Workweek Global Pilot Study (2023 Results)

Mic-Drop Moments:

“If you don’t have the flexibility to work when you’re at your best—are we really getting your best?”

“Unlimited PTO means nothing if the culture tells you not to use it.”

“Trust is the new currency of an evolved leader.”

Connect with Us:

Pinaki Kathiari – LinkedIn | Local Wisdom

Chris Lee – LinkedIn | Gallagher Communication

Special Thanks:

Big shoutout to Local Wisdom for championing people-first work culture, to our brilliant producer Brielle Seracini, and to the production magic of SBX Productions for helping this episode come to life.

Take the Afternoon Off—Then Tell Us About It:

Check your calendar. Find a 2–3 hour block in the next two weeks. Schedule a meeting with yourself and label it “Why Does It Feel So Wrong?” Then actually do something that feels right—take a walk, watch a movie, take a nap. Snap a pic and tag us with #WhyDoesItFeelSoWrong. Your future self will thank you.

Connect with Us

Pinaki Kathiari – LinkedIn  | Local Wisdom

Chris Lee – LinkedIn | Gallagher Communication

Bree Bartos – LinkedIn | Local Wisdom

Special thanks to digital communication agency Local Wisdom (www.localwisdom.com) for really believing in our mission and making this podcast possible. 

If this episode made you think differently, laugh, or even yell out loud, we want to hear about it! Connect with us on LinkedIn, and don’t forget to rate, review, and share – maybe with your work bestie… or even your boss if you're feeling bold.

We also bring these important conversations to conferences and private workshops, creating space for real, meaningful change. Take the first step at www.whydoesitfeelsowrong.com.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Season 1, Episode 2: Why Does It Feel So Wrong to Say “No” at Work?

Episode Description:

Saying “no” at work feels risky—sometimes even dangerous. But why?

In this powerful and vulnerable episode of Why Does It Feel So Wrong to Be Human at Work?, co-hosts Pinaki Kathiari and Chris Lee dig deep into why the simple act of saying “no” can feel like an act of rebellion. Through personal stories, workplace psychology, and reflections on culture and leadership, they unpack how power dynamics, fear, and outdated paradigms have made dissent feel taboo in today’s corporate environment.

Together, they explore:

• Why “no” often triggers fear of judgment, failure, or loss of trust
• The roots of obedience—from ancient empires to public school conditioning
• The modern workplace’s struggle with psychological safety
• How trust, leadership style, and team dynamics shape how safe people feel to speak up
• What healthy conflict, feedback, and creativity actually look like in high-functioning teams
• Tactics for saying “no” with empathy, purpose, and confidence
• The difference between controlling behavior and collaborative leadership

This episode connects history, parenting, neuroscience, and communication strategy into one eye-opening conversation that’ll have you rethinking how your team talks—and how it listens.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 – Intro: The surprising weight of “no”
• 03:00 – Power dynamics and the leadership illusion
• 06:00 – Ancient history, cultural conditioning, and saying yes
• 10:00 – Horace Mann and obedience-based education
• 13:00 – Milgram experiment, Peter Gabriel, and fear-based compliance
• 18:00 – When control leads to dysfunction
• 22:00 – Coaching vs. commanding: What modern leadership demands
• 26:00 – Performance vs. trust: What the Navy SEALs get right
• 30:00 – Fear, failure, and team erosion
• 34:00 – Saying no at home vs. at work: parenting lessons
• 38:00 – Psychological safety defined (and misdefined)
• 44:00 – Crucial conversations: Non-confrontational confrontation
• 48:00 – The future of culture and feedback at work

Books & Resources:

• The Fearless Organization by Amy Edmondson
• Crucial Conversations by Kerry Patterson et al.
• Humanocracy by Gary Hamel
• Reality-Based Leadership by Cy Wakeman
• Simon Sinek’s Navy SEAL Trust Model Watch on YouTube
• Mental Health Commission of Canada – National Standard for Psychological Safety

Mic-Drop Moments:

“We’re conditioned to say yes, but innovation depends on the courage to say no.”

“Psychological safety isn’t about comfort. It’s about performance without fear.”

“If your team can’t disagree with you, you don’t have a team. You have followers.”

Connect with Us:

Pinaki Kathiari – LinkedIn | Local Wisdom

Chris Lee – LinkedIn | Gallagher Communication

Special Thanks:

To our community of listeners—thank you for creating space for hard truths and human-first leadership. Special shoutout to Brielle Seracini and our production team at SBX Productions for helping us amplify these conversations.

Join the Conversation:

When was the last time you said “no” at work—and meant it? Did it feel empowering or terrifying? Share your stories, insights, and questions in the comments or at whydoesitfeelsowrong.com.

Connect with Us

Pinaki Kathiari – LinkedIn  | Local Wisdom

Chris Lee – LinkedIn | Gallagher Communication

Bree Bartos – LinkedIn | Local Wisdom

Special thanks to digital communication agency Local Wisdom (www.localwisdom.com) for really believing in our mission and making this podcast possible. 

If this episode made you think differently, laugh, or even yell out loud, we want to hear about it! Connect with us on LinkedIn, and don’t forget to rate, review, and share – maybe with your work bestie… or even your boss if you're feeling bold.

We also bring these important conversations to conferences and private workshops, creating space for real, meaningful change. Take the first step at www.whydoesitfeelsowrong.com.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Season 1, Episode 1 (Live): Why Does It Feel So Wrong to Be Human at Work?

Episode Description:

Recorded live at the IABC World Conference 2023 in Toronto, this debut episode kicks off the Why Does It Feel So Wrong to Be Human at Work? podcast with a bold question: Are we slowly unlearning our own humanity at work?

Co-hosts Pinaki Kathiari (CEO, Local Wisdom) and Chris Lee (VP at Gallagher, President of IABC Toronto) take the stage to explore why workplace norms—from performance reviews to thank-you notes—often feel mechanical, outdated, or just plain wrong.

In front of a live audience, they break down:

• The habits we’ve inherited but never questioned
• Why “How are you?” is no longer a real question
• The workplace tension between productivity and authentic appreciation
• How performance reviews, workplace mandates, and default professionalism often strip away our humanness
• The origins of the podcast and how serendipity led to a live launch on a global stage

This unscripted, high-energy conversation mixes storytelling, audience interaction, and honest reflections on what it really means to be human in today’s corporate culture.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 – Welcome to the stage: Live from IABC World Conference
• 02:00 – What inspired the podcast (spoiler: it started at a bar)
• 06:00 – Rituals we never question: Email signatures, fax numbers, and apologies for appreciation
• 10:00 – The weirdness of annual performance reviews
• 14:00 – What it means to "unlearn" being robotic at work
• 17:00 – Why does it feel wrong to ask “How are you?” and mean it?
• 20:00 – Audience reactions: Code-switching, return-to-office, single parenting, tone-deaf messaging
• 25:00 – The human cost of transactional internal communications
• 28:00 – Why does it feel wrong to thank someone at work?
• 32:00 – Return to office: Rationales, resentment, and what’s missing in the messaging
• 38:00 – Emotional intelligence and new leadership styles
• 42:00 – Let’s stop calling it a “competitive benefits package”
• 47:00 – Psychological safety: Not a buzzword, a necessity
• 52:00 – Final thoughts and call to action: Be advocates for humanity

Books & Resources:

• The Fearless Organization by Amy Edmondson
• Reality-Based Leadership by Cy Wakeman
• The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho
• Humanocracy by Gary Hamel
• Good to Great by Jim Collins
• The Confidence Code by Katty Kay & Claire Shipman

Mic-Drop Moments:

“Why does it feel wrong to spend five minutes thanking someone, but not five hours chasing a spreadsheet?”

“If you have to explain authenticity, it stops being authentic.”

“Being human isn’t a distraction from work—it is the work.”

Connect with Us:

Pinaki Kathiari – LinkedIn | Local Wisdom

Chris Lee – LinkedIn | Gallagher Communication

Special Thanks:

A heartfelt thank-you to the International Association of Business Communicators (IABC), María Jesús Villagrán Cabanne, Letty Wong, and the entire IABC World Conference crew for helping us make podcast history on stage. And to our live audience—you brought the energy, vulnerability, and validation this show is all about.

Get Curious With Us:

What’s one thing you do at work that you’ve never questioned—until now? That’s where the unlearning starts. Hit play, subscribe, and follow along as we unravel the little (and not-so-little) things that make work feel… not-so-human.

Visit whydoesitfeelsowrong.com to learn more.

Connect with Us

Pinaki Kathiari – LinkedIn  | Local Wisdom

Chris Lee – LinkedIn | Gallagher Communication

Bree Bartos – LinkedIn | Local Wisdom

Special thanks to digital communication agency Local Wisdom (www.localwisdom.com) for really believing in our mission and making this podcast possible. 

If this episode made you think differently, laugh, or even yell out loud, we want to hear about it! Connect with us on LinkedIn, and don’t forget to rate, review, and share – maybe with your work bestie… or even your boss if you're feeling bold.

We also bring these important conversations to conferences and private workshops, creating space for real, meaningful change. Take the first step at www.whydoesitfeelsowrong.com.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Make sure to subscribe to the show! The season begins in June

Connect with Us

Pinaki Kathiari – LinkedIn  | Local Wisdom

Chris Lee – LinkedIn | Gallagher Communication

Bree Bartos – LinkedIn | Local Wisdom

Special thanks to digital communication agency Local Wisdom (www.localwisdom.com) for really believing in our mission and making this podcast possible. 

If this episode made you think differently, laugh, or even yell out loud, we want to hear about it! Connect with us on LinkedIn, and don’t forget to rate, review, and share – maybe with your work bestie… or even your boss if you're feeling bold.

We also bring these important conversations to conferences and private workshops, creating space for real, meaningful change. Take the first step at www.whydoesitfeelsowrong.com.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.