Why I‘ll Never Make It

Four years ago this spring, a new play opened off Broadway called Church & State. It dealt with the contentious intersection of God, guns, and politics and featured four actors on a single set. I consider myself very fortunate to have been a part of this production as the understudy for the two male actors. It was written and produced by two former guests of this podcast: Jason Odell Williams as the playwright and his wife Charlotte Cohn as lead producer.

In this special episode, they share the passion and persistence that goes into creating works like Church & State that can actually make a difference in the hearts and minds of audiences, especially on such an important issue like gun violence.

References in this episode:

by Jason Odell Williams

The seeds for this play date back to 2007. The issue of gun violence in America first became important to me after the shooting massacre at Virginia Tech. I went to UVA (Virginia Tech's “football rival”) and the images on TV of candlelight vigils by Cavaliers for their rival Hokies touched me profoundly. And I realized then, like many Americans, that we had a problem in our country. Guns were a national crisis.

Then the shooting in Tucson where Gabby Giffords was shot. And I watched the news, riveted and angry, scared and hopeless. How could this happen? To one of our own politicians? Will this force Congress to finally take action? When it didn't, I wondered, bleakly, if the response would have been different if something like this had happened to a Republican.* And I couldn't get that dark, nagging thought out of my head.

Then over the summer of 2012, I was talking to a friend from Raleigh, NC about religion and politics and a new seed was planted for this vague idea I had cooking for a play, somehow combing religion, guns and politics. And then in Dec. 2012, the tragic shooting in Newtown. And I'd had enough. I had to turn my rage and fear into action. So I did what I know how to do. I wrote a play.

A month later, in January 2013, I had a first draft of what would eventually become Church & State. I had three friends read the play with me in our living room. We talked about what worked what didn’t. I shared the play with a few director friends who offered some great feedback. And eventually one director, Ralph Meranto from JCC CenterStage in Rochester, read the play saw a lot of potential. He committed to producing it if we could develop it together.

So for the next few months, I’d write a draft, he’d ask questions and make comments and suggestions, I’d do a rewrite and we’d repeat the process. I think it was late 2015 when we felt good about the final product. I then shared the play with two friends in DC who loved it and wanted to do a reading for their Actors Salon. And that was the first public reading, January 2016. I knew then the play was basically ready. (BroadwayBox)

*Just a week after Church & State's Off-Broadway production closed, a gunman walked onto a baseball field at Eugene Simpson Park in Alexandria, Virginia, opening fire on politicians and wounding Republican U.S. Representative and House GOP Whip Steve Scalise of Louisiana and four others. 

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Why I’ll Never Make It is an award-winning, Top Theater Podcast hosted by actor and singer Patrick Oliver Jones and is a production of WINMI Media. Background music is by John Bartmann and Blue Dot Sessions is used under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.

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My on-camera agent Brian Keith Graziani and I have been working together since late 2020 for a range of projects--from commercials and industrials to TV dramas and docu-series. Brian himself started out as an actor and singer, and just sort of fell into casting, which then led to talent management and representation. While he still loves performing, this new career path has allowed him to have a greater impact on the careers and livelihoods of other actors.

Having had such wide-ranging experiences in theater, Brian is uniquely qualified to guide and represent actors like myself. And he certainly has a lot to say, he’s not one to hold back what he thinks at all, especially when it comes to auditioning, communication, and one of my least favorite parts of this business: self-tapes. He also answers five final questions on the WINMI Blog.

Audition and Submissions Tips When Using an Agent

by Brian Keith Graziani

A piece of advice: Say yes and get seen. Unless you feel like the quality of work you're presenting wouldn't present you in the best light, there is always merit to getting into the "room" and making sure casting knows who you are. If you have a major "why" then ask...but remember, every minute spent trying to convince you to submit for a job is a minute that could have spent submitting or pushing you, so trust the process. 

Are any traits that make for a successful actor? The answer is always "the actors who work the most and garner the most fruitful results from auditions are the ones who work with an agent daily to make their expectations clear". Clearly communicate what you will do, and want to do, just as much as what you won't do.

Connect with Brian and The Hell's Kitchen Agency - Website | Instagram | Email 

Get access to Audition Stories, the Final Five questions, and other bonus content by becoming a monthly or yearly subscriber to Why I’ll Never Make It. Producing this podcast is rewarding in its own way, but I’m essentially a one-man operation. So it is both costly and time-intensive to put together each episode. By subscribing you’ll be supporting these podcasting efforts, and have access to extended conversations and other bonus content. Your financial support of this podcast is greatly appreciated!

Follow WINMI: Website | Instagram | YouTube

———

Why I’ll Never Make It is an award-winning, Top Theater Podcast hosted by actor and singer Patrick Oliver Jones and is a production of WINMI Media. Background music is by John Bartmann and Blue Dot Sessions is used under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“There are few things that can cause joy, shame, contentment, anxiety and stress the way that money does,” says Korrena Bailie, Consumer Finance Editor at Forbes. “If your finances cause you stress and anxiety, it’s natural to want to keep this to yourself because you might feel embarrassed or ashamed about the decisions you made.” (NY Times)

Well, one artist who is trying to break down that wall of fear or shame when it comes to money is lighting designer and fellow podcaster Ethan Steimel. In this episode we both confront the stigma around such discussions. He shares three specific stories of his own financial journey, including how he paid for college and one important money issue that’s come up between him and his wife. 

Miata Edoga is a former guest of WINMI (Season 4) and is the CEO and Founder of Abundance Bound. For over two decades, she has been helping individuals of all backgrounds establish a healthier, more compassionate relationship with their money – whether they are just starting out, starting over, or starting to wonder how they should handle their growing wealth. Learn more about her Financial Empowerment Program. 

Why I’ll Never Make It is now an award-winning podcast, having been recognized by the Academy of Interactive and Visual Arts at their 28th Annual Communicator Awards. WINMI was given the Award of Distinction in the area of Featured Episode for producing a Tribute to Alvin Ailey. He was dancer & choreographer who founded the Alvin Ailey Dance Theater and spent his life preserving the African-American cultural experience through dance and music.

With over 5,000 entries received from across the US and around the world, the Communicator Awards are the largest and most competitive awards program honoring creative excellence for communications professionals. So it is such a thrill to be recognized for the work that went into this celebratory episode on the life and career of a luminary like Alvin Ailey.

Get access to Audition Stories, the Final Five questions, and other bonus content by becoming a monthly or yearly subscriber to Why I’ll Never Make It. Producing this podcast is rewarding in its own way, but I’m essentially a one-man operation. So it is both costly and time-intensive to put together each episode. By subscribing you’ll be supporting these podcasting efforts, and have access to extended conversations and other bonus content. Your financial support of this podcast is greatly appreciated!

Follow WINMI: Website | Instagram | YouTube

———-

Why I’ll Never Make It is an award-winning, Top Theater Podcast hosted by actor and singer Patrick Oliver Jones and is a production of WINMI Media. Background music is by John Bartmann and Blue Dot Sessions is used under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ethan Steimel talks with Jonathan Cerullo about seeing ourselves and our careers as more than an artistic craft in this special collaboration and presentation with Artistic Finance.

There are two fundamental sides to every actor: the artistic part of us that loves rehearsing and performing, and then there’s the business aspect which handles money, contracts, and other details. It is so important that our business side gets just as much attention and preparation as the creative side, because both are crucial to our success. While we are good at taking lessons, being coached, or joining classes to work on that creative side, we aren’t often as diligent or even aware of our need to build up our fiscal muscles and business know-how.

That’s where Ethan Steimel comes in and his podcast Artistic Finance, this Month's Artist Resource. He crunches the numbers and breaks down the nitty gritty of various financial concepts within the arts. Asking questions such as: Why some artists get big breaks and others never break through to financial security? Why do artists pursue careers that are guaranteed to hold financial risk? Why do some artists get paid more than others for doing the same job? These questions led to creating Artistic Finance in order to have honest conversations with artists about money. He even sat down with WINMI host Patrick Oliver Jones for an episode about his own finances.

Get access to Audition Stories, the Final Five questions, and other bonus content by becoming a monthly or yearly subscriber to Why I’ll Never Make It. Producing this podcast is rewarding in its own way, but I’m essentially a one-man operation. So it is both costly and time-intensive to put together each episode. By subscribing you’ll be supporting these podcasting efforts, and have access to extended conversations and other bonus content. Your financial support of this podcast is greatly appreciated!

Follow WINMI: Website | Instagram | YouTube

———-

Why I’ll Never Make It is an award-winning, Top Theater Podcast hosted by actor and singer Patrick Oliver Jones and is a production of WINMI Media. Background music is by John Bartmann and Blue Dot Sessions is used under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No matter how many conversations I have with artists, no matter how many episodes this podcast releases, I’m amazed at the variety of insights and lessons that each person brings to these discussions. In this episode, I think we hit upon one of the biggest obstacles, if not THE biggest, that holds us back as actors and creatives-- fear. The fear of the vulnerability it takes to give an honest performance, the fear of not making enough money or simply not being good enough to be cast.

This fear is the cause of our self-doubt and uncertainty and it can hold us back or even paralyze us from moving forward. David Dean Bottrell knows all too well what fear can do to us. Though he's been in TV shows like Boston Legal and After Forever (created by former guest Kevin Spirtas), David has also battled fear as an artist and has even written a book to help us navigate the ins and outs about this business in order to become a WORKING ACTOR.

David joins the podcast to talk about three specific examples of fear...

Learn more of David's journey from Louisa, Kentucky to Los Angeles and New York, as he chronicles various roles and milestones. It highlights his struggle and successes as well as covers topics we didn't get to in this interview. Find it on the WINMI Blog.

Get access to Audition Stories and other bonus content by becoming a monthly or yearly subscriber to Why I’ll Never Make It. Producing this podcast is rewarding in its own way, but I’m essentially a one-man operation. So it is both costly and time-intensive to put together each episode. By subscribing you’ll be supporting these podcasting efforts, and have access to extended conversations and other bonus content. Your financial support of this podcast is greatly appreciated!

Follow WINMI: Website | Instagram | YouTube

———

Why I’ll Never Make It is an award-winning, Top Theater Podcast hosted by actor and singer Patrick Oliver Jones and is a production of WINMI Media. Background music is by John Bartmann and Blue Dot Sessions is used under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One of the main themes and messages of this podcast has always been that success can mean different things to different people and the path of how someone gets there, if they get there, is always unique to the person. Today’s episode is with someone that I had the privilege of working with in the musical adaptation of First Wives Club back in 2015 in Chicago (with Faith Prince and Christine Sherrill). We were gearing up for a hopeful Broadway transfer that unfortunately never happened.

However, Carmen Cusack gave a memorable performance in that show and a few years later went on to star in her Broadway debut of Bright Star and most recently Flying Over Sunset. Her journey to Broadway has been a very unique one – from Denver and Texas to London and Shanghai, but as you’ll hear in her stories, the bumpy road to success is as much a personal journey as it is a professional one...

The Final Five Questions

Learn more of the details of her journey from Denver to Broadway, as she chronicles her various roles and milestones. It highlights both the struggle and the joy of her time onstage, and finding the freedom to explore her own voice and artistry. Find it on the WINMI Blog.

Get access to Audition Stories and other bonus content by becoming a monthly or yearly subscriber to Why I’ll Never Make It. Producing this podcast is rewarding in its own way, but I’m essentially a one-man operation. So it is both costly and time-intensive to put together each episode. By subscribing you’ll be supporting these podcasting efforts, and have access to extended conversations and other bonus content. Your financial support of this podcast is greatly appreciated!

Follow WINMI: Website | Instagram | YouTube

———-

Why I’ll Never Make It is an award-winning, Top Theater Podcast hosted by actor and singer Patrick Oliver Jones and is a production of WINMI Media. Background music is by John Bartmann and Blue Dot Sessions is used under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Years after the failed Lerner & Loewe movie musical of The Little Prince, producer Joseph Tandet tried again with composer John Barry and a full Broadway production, which brought with it a whole new set of problems. The Little Prince and the Aviator began rehearsals in late 1981 and starred TV and film actor Michael York as the pilot with a 10-year-old newcomer in the title role, Anthony Rapp.

We talk about that troubled production, which never actually opened on Broadway, and we also discuss other shows like Rent and Star Trek Discovery. So in today’s episode you’ll be hearing four stories from his life and career:

WINMI Blog: The Final Five

Anthony Rapp has been acting and singing professionally since he was nine years old. Even with an extensive list of wonderful achievements, Rapp also knows the hardships and uncertainty of this business. And through it all he's discovered what truly matters most in his life and career. He gives further thoughts and insights in the Final Five.

Bonus Episode: Anthony Rapp Talks About You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown

This week's main episode is already full of intimate stories and insights from Anthony's life and career. But there's a special segment from our interview saved just for subscribers. He goes into details of the collaborative process to create this Broadway revival production and what led to it's short-lived run. 

Get access to Audition Stories and other bonus content by becoming a monthly or yearly subscriber to Why I’ll Never Make It. Producing this podcast is rewarding in its own way, but I’m essentially a one-man operation. So it is both costly and time-intensive to put together each episode. By subscribing you’ll be supporting these podcasting efforts, and have access to extended conversations and other bonus content. Your financial support of this podcast is greatly appreciated!

Follow WINMI: Website | Instagram | YouTube

———

Why I’ll Never Make It is an award-winning, Top Theater Podcast hosted by actor and singer Patrick Oliver Jones and is a production of WINMI Media. Background music is by John Bartmann and Blue Dot Sessions is used under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As an actor it is rare to have long stretches of employment, especially in theater. Television actors can certainly be a part of a successful show for years on end and same goes for movie franchises where roles can come back film after film. Unfortunately, for most of us, it is simply job to job; we work hard to land a gig, the show ends, and then we work hard to book the next one.

For Steven Warner, he scored the biggest role in his life…at the age of seven. So what was next for him? In part two of our conversation we explore the years after The Little Prince and how his life and career took a dramatic turn. It’s a story of persistence and tenacity but also a recognition of the realities we face as actors and how it’s as much a personal journey as an artistic one.

Final Five Questions

As a child actor, Steven Warner was working with some of the most talented and famous actors and directors in Hollywood, but as a teenager his path took a turn away from film and has only recently begun a slow turn back to the camera again. In these five final questions, he addresses topics we didn't get to in this conversation and provides extra insight into the importance of determination and handling rejection. You can find his Final Five on the WINMI Blog.

Get access to Audition Stories and other bonus content by becoming a monthly or yearly subscriber to Why I’ll Never Make It. Producing this podcast is rewarding in its own way, but I’m essentially a one-man operation. So it is both costly and time-intensive to put together each episode. By subscribing you’ll be supporting these podcasting efforts, and have access to extended conversations and other bonus content. Your financial support of this podcast is greatly appreciated!

Follow WINMI: Website | Instagram | YouTube

———-

Why I’ll Never Make It is an award-winning, Top Theater Podcast hosted by actor and singer Patrick Oliver Jones and is a production of WINMI Media. Background music is by John Bartmann and Blue Dot Sessions is used under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today’s episode is going to be slightly different from most episodes of Why I’ll Never Make It, because it was born out of a collaboration between myself and another podcast called The Industry hosted by Dan Delgado. In some ways it’s the movie version of this podcast, focusing on the challenges and failures that go into film production and taking a closer look at some of the lesser known and sometimes forgotten stories of Hollywood.

One of my all-time favorite movie musicals is Alan Jay Lerner & Frederick Loewe's adaptation of The Little Prince in 1974. It starred such legendary performers as Bob Fosse, Richard Kiley, Gene Wilder, and Donna McKechnie. It may not have done well at the box office or with many critics, but there's a lot to love about this star-studded film. 

So I reached out to Dan with the idea for an episode about this film adaptation of Little Prince, and I am so grateful that he ran with it. Ultimately, it evolved into a two-part miniseries, covering not only the Lerner and Loewe movie musical, but also the recent Netflix movie adaptation and a couple of Broadway productions. So, today you’ll get to hear our commentary on The Little Prince movie musical, meet Steven Warner, and gain insight into what went wrong with one of my favorite movie musicals of all time. 

Get access to Audition Stories, the Final Five questions, and other bonus content by becoming a monthly or yearly subscriber to Why I’ll Never Make It. Producing this podcast is rewarding in its own way, but I’m essentially a one-man operation. So it is both costly and time-intensive to put together each episode. By subscribing you’ll be supporting these podcasting efforts, and have access to extended conversations and other bonus content. Your financial support of this podcast is greatly appreciated!

Follow WINMI: Website | Instagram | YouTube

———-

Why I’ll Never Make It is an award-winning, Top Theater Podcast hosted by actor and singer Patrick Oliver Jones and is a production of WINMI Media. Background music is by John Bartmann and Blue Dot Sessions is used under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Back in January 2022, this podcast held its first ever live event: a night of conversation with Emmy-winner Kevin Spirtas. He not only shared stories and struggles from his time on Broadway and television, but he also sang five songs that evening that highlighted the work he has done and moments that have meant the most to him throughout his career.

On today’s episode you’re going to hear a portion of this cabaret performance and discussion that was presented here in New York City at the Green Room 42. In fact, BroadwayWorld was there that night and called the evening “entertaining and informative.” They were extremely complementary of Kevin and his performance and even had a few nice things to say about me (as well as some well-deserved critiques). It was a rare chance to see Kevin Spirtas in a candid interview, opening up about personal and professional experiences that he doesn’t often talk about in public. I am immensely grateful to have shared the stage with Kevin and happy to showcase a portion of our honest and frank conversation with you today.

Get access to Audition Stories, the Final Five questions, and other bonus content by becoming a monthly or yearly subscriber to Why I’ll Never Make It. Producing this podcast is rewarding in its own way, but I’m essentially a one-man operation. So it is both costly and time-intensive to put together each episode. By subscribing you’ll be supporting these podcasting efforts, and have access to extended conversations and other bonus content. Your financial support of this podcast is greatly appreciated!

Follow WINMI: Website | Instagram | YouTube

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Why I’ll Never Make It is an award-winning, Top Theater Podcast hosted by actor and singer Patrick Oliver Jones and is a production of WINMI Media. Background music is by Eugene Gwozdz and is used under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices