Why Should I Trust You?

In today’s episode: a conversation between two sides that don’t typically speak with each other—mainstream public health leaders and voices from the Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) movement. These groups often talk about each other, but rarely to each other.

Five MAHA members from their state chapter in Ohio. Five public health leaders. We had met and developed relationships with them over months of discussing their vision of health in this country. And a few weeks ago, we invited them to have a conversation with each other. They all agreed. 

On today's episode, we play the conversation in three sections. Following each section, we are joined by the Dean of Yale School of Public Health's Megan Ranney and MAHA Ohio's Grassroots Coordinator Elizabeth Frost who were on the call, to dig into their reactions.

This dialogue comes at a critical moment for public health and science, as the Trump administration slashes funding and jobs in a sharp reorientation of America’s health agencies and scientific research infrastructure. The divisions between these two camps run deep—over vaccines, the role of government, over health itself, and the polarizing figure of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the nation’s current health secretary. Trust is eroding on all sides.

So we asked: what if we tried to bridge the gap? Do these sides actually have more in common than they think? Would they be willing to be open and honest with each other? Would they get stuck on the conversation over vaccines?

What you will hear is an important starting point -- with more conversations planned for the future. 

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek 

Guests:

MAHA Grassroots from Ohio:

Elizabeth Frost**

Nancy Fuller

Donald Wiggins

Daniel DeLuca

Mark Harris

Public health leaders: 

Megan Ranney**

Reed Tuckson

Katelyn Jetelina

Craig Spencer

Paul Offit

**Were on the group zoom conversation with MAHA and public health as well as podcast guests today

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During RFK Jr.'s confirmation hearing back in January, many voices competed to be heard. But one cut through the noise: Senator Maggie Hassan of New Hampshire — a Democrat, a policymaker, and the mother of a son with Cerebral Palsy. Her emotional testimony about love, a mother's guilt, and the daily realities of disability struck a national chord.

Today, she joins us.

She tells us about where she finds yes, disagreement — but also, surprising common ground — with MAHA parents seeking answers about autism, vaccines, food, and chemicals. 

Can this Democrat from the "Live Free or Die" state help rebuild trust in public health, a field often tied to collective sacrifice? And with her party facing historic polling lows, how does she believe Democrats can craft a new health message, even as they fight to protect scientific research and Medicaid from deep cuts she sees as devastating?

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest:

Senator Maggie Hassan (D-NH)

Relevant committees she serves which relate to the subject of our podcast: Senate HELP Committee (Health, Education, Labor and Pensions); Senate Finance Committee; Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs

Source:

Clip from January 2025 of Sen Maggie Hassan at RFK Jr.'s confirmation hearing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEYj8x8f1QY&t=1s

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We’re joined by Emily Jashinsky, co-host of Counterpoints with Ryan Grim. Formerly with The Federalist and The Hill, Emily now serves as DC correspondent for UnHerd and hosts Undercurrents TV. She’s someone well-versed in this shifting media landscape.

Together, we explore the rise of the so-called “New Media”—a world where legacy outlets are giving way to right-leaning podcasters, YouTubers, and social media influencers. As trust in public health, science, and institutions craters, we ask: is this new media ecosystem fueling the breakdown, or finally reflecting a mistrust that’s been simmering for years?

And while critics on the Left call this new media machine unstoppable—blaming it for everything from Trump’s rise to the collapse of trust in science—we push back on that narrative. Could this shifting landscape actually offer unexpected opportunities for public health voices willing to step into the fray?

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett (off this week)

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek (off this week)

Guest:

Emily Jashinsky, former The Federalist, The Hill, co-host of Counterpoints web and podcast show; and the DC correspondent of UnHerd - a news and current affairs site and host of Undercurrents TV. 

Sources:

Media Matters "Bubbles" Graphic on Dominance of Right-Leaning Media

https://x.com/GoAngelo/status/1900959918040989731

Joe Rogan Podcast, Dave Smith, Doug Murray, on Expertise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah6kirkSwTg

Emily Jashinsky: Legacy Media Indict Themselves When They Blame the "Right Wing Media Ecosystem"

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In today’s episode, we speak with Evan Barker, a writer, podcaster, and former Democratic staffer and fundraiser who, in 2024, voted for Donald Trump. Raised in a working-class community by her mother, Barker's family lived paycheck to paycheck. Then she was diagnosed with a rare, potentially fatal chronic illness. 

Raised in a blue-collar Missouri community, Evan represents a much-needed voice at the table as America wrestles with how to get healthier. Does she feel MAHA represents the America of her upbringing? How did the party of Obamacare--which provided her insurance and thus the opportunity to go to college--lose her trust? And despite her vote for Trump, does she trust the Republican Party will hold the line on cuts to Medicaid, which millions of working-class Americans depend on?  Finally, does this former Democrat think either party has a health agenda that will rebuild trust with middle-class America and will make us healthier? 

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest:

Evan Barker: writer; former Democratic campaign operative; host of podcast Not Going Back

Source:

Evan Barker: I Raised $50 Million for the Democratic Party. This Week I Voted for Donald Trump. 

https://www.thefp.com/p/democrat-fundraiser-evan-barker-i-voted-trump

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Nation's Top Vaccine Regulator Just Ousted, Dr. Peter Marks: "Measles is NOT leveling off". 

This is in direct contrast to Secretary Kennedy's statement just yesterday that the nation's measles outbreak is under control. 

Plus why he felt he could not stay at the FDA anymore, his answers to parents' questions about vaccine safety, what he sees for public health right now and what he wants to do next. 

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Today, in a special episode, we’re breaking from our usual Thursday release schedule to bring you an in-depth conversation with Dr. Peter Marks—America’s top vaccine official, who just stepped down from his role at the FDA.

His resignation made headlines, sending shock waves through the public health world, especially after he said RFK Jr.’s newly installed team at the agency left him little choice. For years, Dr. Marks led the government group responsible for approving vaccines and in that role was a driving force behind Operation Warp Speed. That effort both fast-tracked COVID-19 vaccines at a moment when the nation was desperate for solutions and has helped fuel America's rise in mistrust.
Now, with that public trust in science, health officials, and institutions at a low point, we sit down with Dr. Marks to ask the hard questions: Was the COVID vaccine rushed? What does he make of RFK Jr.’s bold claim that he’ll uncover the cause of autism by September? And does he think the current measles outbreak is bigger and more dangerous than it appears?
Finally, we talk with this newly liberated public health servant about what it might take for America to turn the corner—and start trusting again.

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest:

Dr. Peter Marks, former director of the Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research within the Food and Drug Administration. He oversaw the FDA vaccine program. 

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On today's episode, we tackle a topic that sparks more fear, frustration, and mistrust than perhaps any other: health insurance. From denied claims to endless bureaucratic red tape and the dread of sky-high out-of-pocket costs, it's no wonder so many Americans feel trapped. While more people are covered than ever before, many are still skipping doctor visits, avoiding exams, and forgoing prescription refills due to the financial burden. The raw emotion was on full display in the shocking response to the murder of the United Healthcare CEO. Today, we sit down with Wendell Potter, a former health industry insider turned whistleblower who walked away from his high-paying job to fight for reform in the very industry he once served. In today's divisive conversation about making America healthier, is fixing healthcare the one thing we can all agree on?

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest:

Wendell Potter, former health insurance executive at Cigna; president of the Center for Health and Democracy

Sources:

I Was a Health Insurance Executive. What I Saw Made Me Quit

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/18/opinion/health-insurance-united-ceo-shooting.html

In US, Inability to Pay For Care, Medicine Hits New High
https://news.gallup.com/poll/658148/inability-pay-care-medicine-hits-new-high.aspx

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Health and Human Services chief RFK Jr. unleashed much-anticipated cuts this week, bringing the total to 20,000 jobs slashed from our nation’s premier health institution. This follows cuts in money for state public health agencies and funding freezes for research centers tackling everything from cancer to veterans' health. Secretary Kennedy says this is to streamline government agencies' practices which he says will ultimately make America healthy again. 

For too long, both parties ran the show without challenging the status quo. Meanwhile, trust in public health on behalf of a public desperate for action was plummeting. How much did that lack of change pave the way for the radical shift we’re seeing now?

To help make sense of it all, we speak with Jennifer Pahlka—author, technologist, and government reformer. A pioneer in bringing tech-driven innovation to government long before DOGE was a glint in Elon Musk’s eye, Pahlka has a lot to say about government efficiency, streamlining bureaucracy, and where these cuts might be leading us.

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest:

Jennifer Pahlka, author Recoding America: Why Government Is Failing in the Digital Age, and How We Can Do Better; former U.S. deputy chief technology officer under President Barack Obama where she helped set up the U.S. Digital Service.

Sources:

Fortune on Pahlka and DOGE cuts

https://fortune.com/2025/03/05/doge-co-founder-digital-service-jennifer-pahlka-code-for-america

Atlantic 

https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/archive/2025/01/elon-musk-doge-government-efficiency/681366/

Pahlka op-ed NY Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/07/opinion/democrats-elon-musk-doge.html

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Our team first takes on the drastic funding cuts shaking the medical, scientific, and public health communities before turning to a provocative question: What if, during the next pandemic, we avoided strict lockdowns, vaccine mandates, and widespread restrictions? What if schools, workplaces, bars, and gyms stayed open, and the government encouraged precautions rather than enforcing them? Would more people die, or would people comply? Does it have to be a choice between life and the economy? We speak with a firefighter, Barry Arata, who was told during the pandemic, he had to vaccinate or face termination from his position. We learned what he did next and how it changed his view on government and trust. 

To explore all this, we bring on Anders Tegnell, architect of Sweden’s controversial no-lockdown strategy. Sweden bucked the trend and stayed open—was it a success or a deadly gamble? How do Swedes view the balance between personal responsibility and public health? And while America is a very different place, should we follow Sweden’s example next time? With trust in the system where it is today, do we even have a choice?

(And yeah we ask him a couple of questions about ABBA. Because, Sweden.)

Anders Tegnell on Sweden’s response

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-11-state-epidemiologist-sweden-covid-strategy.html

New York Times' David Wallace-Wells on Sweden’s pandemic response

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/30/opinion/sweden-pandemic-coronavirus.html

Study on Sweden’s Covid deaths 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10399217/#:~:text=In%20conclusion%2C%20Sweden%20experienced%20relatively,to%20their%20version%20of%20reality.

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Amid a deadly measles outbreak, a fresh battle has erupted, pitting mainstream public health against MAHA, infectious disease against chronic disease, and Vitamin A against vaccination. It's a fight that hinges on a fundamental question: Is your illness driven more by infectious disease or underlying chronic conditions? One side argues that vaccination is the only way to prevent measles. At the same time, the other emphasizes diet, nutrition, and Vitamin A, even bringing up cod liver oil as part of the discussion. Then there's MAHA's passion to address America’s unhealthy diet. Should critics of MAHA separate what they agree with from what they don't? In this episode, we unpack the fight amid an outbreak and hear from Marion Nestle, one of America’s leading nutritionists and public health experts. 

Sources:

Vitamin A and Measles

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7076287/

Vitamin A deficiency

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022316622012238?via%3Dihub

RFK Jr on Foxnews:
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6369595673112

RFK Jr with Sean Hannity

https://www.foxnews.com/video/6369888081112

Interview of parents of child in TX measles outbreak death
https://live.childrenshealthdefense.org/chd-tv/shows/good-morning-chd/breaking-news-parents-of-child-in-texas-measles-outbreak-death/

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"Big Pharma" — two words that Americans love to hate. When asked about the pharmaceutical industry, most of the country responds with a mix of anger and suspicion, using terms like "corporate capture," "revolving door," and "profits over people" to describe its influence, a sentiment felt even stronger after the pandemic. And yet, we are a nation that depends on their life-saving, life-improving products. Americans demand innovation from Big Pharma, but are simultaneously frustrated and mistrustful of their motives and influence. Today, we delve into our complex relationship with the pharmaceutical industry. What fuels this mistrust? Is there a better system? Joining us is bioethicist, author, and TED Talk star hailing from Penn State University Jonathan Marks, who believes it doesn’t have to be this way.

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest:

Jonathan Marks, Director of Bioethics Program at Penn State University, lawyer, author The Perils of Partnership: Industry Influence, Institutional Integrity, and Public Health

Sources:

2019 pharma ranked least well regarded industry

https://news.gallup.com/poll/266060/big-pharma-sinks-bottom-industry-rankings.aspx

2023 Gallup on pharma  

https://news.gallup.com/poll/510641/retail-pharmaceutical-industries-slip-public-esteem.aspx

Lessons from Corporate Influence in the Opioid Epidemic https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32661741/

STAT on financial donations to Congress

https://www.statnews.com/feature/prescription-politics/federal-full-data-set/

NIH funds drug research 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5878010/

TED TALK: Jonathan Marks: In Praise of Conflict

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf8j5LFv3nI

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