Health and Human Services chief RFK Jr. unleashed much-anticipated cuts this week, bringing the total to 20,000 jobs slashed from our nation’s premier health institution. This follows cuts in money for state public health agencies and funding freezes for research centers tackling everything from cancer to veterans' health. Secretary Kennedy says this is to streamline government agencies' practices which he says will ultimately make America healthy again. 

For too long, both parties ran the show without challenging the status quo. Meanwhile, trust in public health on behalf of a public desperate for action was plummeting. How much did that lack of change pave the way for the radical shift we’re seeing now?

To help make sense of it all, we speak with Jennifer Pahlka—author, technologist, and government reformer. A pioneer in bringing tech-driven innovation to government long before DOGE was a glint in Elon Musk’s eye, Pahlka has a lot to say about government efficiency, streamlining bureaucracy, and where these cuts might be leading us.

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest:

Jennifer Pahlka, author Recoding America: Why Government Is Failing in the Digital Age, and How We Can Do Better; former U.S. deputy chief technology officer under President Barack Obama where she helped set up the U.S. Digital Service.

Sources:

Fortune on Pahlka and DOGE cuts

https://fortune.com/2025/03/05/doge-co-founder-digital-service-jennifer-pahlka-code-for-america

Atlantic 

https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/archive/2025/01/elon-musk-doge-government-efficiency/681366/

Pahlka op-ed NY Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/07/opinion/democrats-elon-musk-doge.html

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Our team first takes on the drastic funding cuts shaking the medical, scientific, and public health communities before turning to a provocative question: What if, during the next pandemic, we avoided strict lockdowns, vaccine mandates, and widespread restrictions? What if schools, workplaces, bars, and gyms stayed open, and the government encouraged precautions rather than enforcing them? Would more people die, or would people comply? Does it have to be a choice between life and the economy? We speak with a firefighter, Barry Arata, who was told during the pandemic, he had to vaccinate or face termination from his position. We learned what he did next and how it changed his view on government and trust. 

To explore all this, we bring on Anders Tegnell, architect of Sweden’s controversial no-lockdown strategy. Sweden bucked the trend and stayed open—was it a success or a deadly gamble? How do Swedes view the balance between personal responsibility and public health? And while America is a very different place, should we follow Sweden’s example next time? With trust in the system where it is today, do we even have a choice?

(And yeah we ask him a couple of questions about ABBA. Because, Sweden.)

Anders Tegnell on Sweden’s response

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-11-state-epidemiologist-sweden-covid-strategy.html

New York Times' David Wallace-Wells on Sweden’s pandemic response

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/30/opinion/sweden-pandemic-coronavirus.html

Study on Sweden’s Covid deaths 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10399217/#:~:text=In%20conclusion%2C%20Sweden%20experienced%20relatively,to%20their%20version%20of%20reality.

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Amid a deadly measles outbreak, a fresh battle has erupted, pitting mainstream public health against MAHA, infectious disease against chronic disease, and Vitamin A against vaccination. It's a fight that hinges on a fundamental question: Is your illness driven more by infectious disease or underlying chronic conditions? One side argues that vaccination is the only way to prevent measles. At the same time, the other emphasizes diet, nutrition, and Vitamin A, even bringing up cod liver oil as part of the discussion. Then there's MAHA's passion to address America’s unhealthy diet. Should critics of MAHA separate what they agree with from what they don't? In this episode, we unpack the fight amid an outbreak and hear from Marion Nestle, one of America’s leading nutritionists and public health experts. 

Sources:

Vitamin A and Measles

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7076287/

Vitamin A deficiency

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022316622012238?via%3Dihub

RFK Jr on Foxnews:
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6369595673112

RFK Jr with Sean Hannity

https://www.foxnews.com/video/6369888081112

Interview of parents of child in TX measles outbreak death
https://live.childrenshealthdefense.org/chd-tv/shows/good-morning-chd/breaking-news-parents-of-child-in-texas-measles-outbreak-death/

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"Big Pharma" — two words that Americans love to hate. When asked about the pharmaceutical industry, most of the country responds with a mix of anger and suspicion, using terms like "corporate capture," "revolving door," and "profits over people" to describe its influence, a sentiment felt even stronger after the pandemic. And yet, we are a nation that depends on their life-saving, life-improving products. Americans demand innovation from Big Pharma, but are simultaneously frustrated and mistrustful of their motives and influence. Today, we delve into our complex relationship with the pharmaceutical industry. What fuels this mistrust? Is there a better system? Joining us is bioethicist, author, and TED Talk star hailing from Penn State University Jonathan Marks, who believes it doesn’t have to be this way.

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest:

Jonathan Marks, Director of Bioethics Program at Penn State University, lawyer, author The Perils of Partnership: Industry Influence, Institutional Integrity, and Public Health

Sources:

2019 pharma ranked least well regarded industry

https://news.gallup.com/poll/266060/big-pharma-sinks-bottom-industry-rankings.aspx

2023 Gallup on pharma  

https://news.gallup.com/poll/510641/retail-pharmaceutical-industries-slip-public-esteem.aspx

Lessons from Corporate Influence in the Opioid Epidemic https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32661741/

STAT on financial donations to Congress

https://www.statnews.com/feature/prescription-politics/federal-full-data-set/

NIH funds drug research 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5878010/

TED TALK: Jonathan Marks: In Praise of Conflict

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf8j5LFv3nI

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During incoming NIH secretary Dr. Jay Bhattacharya's confirmation hearing this week, he vowed to "establish a culture of respect for free speech in science & scientific dissent at the NIH"; he went on to call dissent "the very essence of science". Dr. Bhattacharya has been one of the most outspoken critics of what he perceives to be censorship and the deliberate muzzling of scientists during Covid. 

Today, we dive into the complex and contentious issue of censorship—one of the biggest drivers of mistrust in public health. Was it justified for the government to pressure social media companies to remove posts about COVID-19 and vaccines that they deemed dangerous misinformation? Or did that cross a line into stifling free speech? 

today, with the Trump administration now overseeing public health, issuing new executive orders aimed at limiting DEI programs, language and studies throughout the federal government. 

Do these actions cross the line into censoring science? Why are we caught in a battle between science and free speech, and how did we get here? And how do we move forward?

To help explore these questions, we’re joined by two individuals from very different backgrounds who emerged as important voices during the pandemic: Wilk Wilkinson, a trucking company manager in Central Minnesota and host of the Derate The Hate podcast who has joined forces with scientists such as Dr Francis Collins and Dr Jay Bhattacharya on various topics; and Dr. Maciej Boni, a biology professor at Temple University and infectious disease epidemiologist who worked on the front lines of various outbreaks, from swine flu, bird flu to Covid-19.

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guests:

Wilk Wilkinson, Braver Angels leader; Host of Derate the Hate podcast; manager of trucking operations 

Dr. Maciej Boni, professor of biology at Temple University; infectious disease epidemiologist

Sources:

Mark Zuckerberg’s letter to Rep. Jim Jordan

https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/PDFFiles/Mark-Zuckerberg-Letter-on-Govt-Censorship.pdf

Rep. Jim Jordan’s investigation into Biden’s “Censorship Scheme”

https://judiciary.house.gov/media/in-the-news/jim-jordan-launches-misinformation-investigation-uncover-biden-censorship-scheme

Free speech and content moderation

https://www.newsweek.com/covid-censorship-facebook-stretched-first-amendment-free-speech-lawyers-1945595

Supreme Court: Murthy v. Missouri 

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/whats-stake-us-supreme-court-case-misinformation

Supreme Court: Missouri v. Biden 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-censorship-proved-to-be-deadly-social-media-government-pandemic-health-697c32c4

Biden & Social Media 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/16/us/politics/biden-facebook-social-media-covid.html

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With measles cases spreading and reports of the first measles death in 10 years, all eyes are on the new health secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr, in what is his first real public health test. He said the measles outbreaks were not unusual. According to the CDC and Your Local Epidemiologist newsletter, 2025 has already passed 8 out of the last 15 years in annual counts of measles. 

On today's episode: In 2024, after Kennedy rose to join Donald Trump, what we got was a powerful union, between MAGA and MAHA. When Kennedy dropped his independent bid for the White House and endorsed Donald J. Trump, his MAHA supporters rallied behind the Republican candidate. 

This merger unites two groups that, at first glance, seem to have little in common. One is a populist movement, championing the working American who feels overlooked and dismissed by the elites. The other is a coalition of wellness enthusiasts and vaccine skeptics, critics of big business, and those wary of pharma’s influence over health policy and advocates of health freedom, coming together in common cause.

But what happens when the realpolitik of governing kicks in, with its focus on priorities, compromises, and funding? Will MAGA rally behind MAHA’s causes, especially if they call for more business regulations, farming restrictions, and higher health standards? Is MAHA wise to trust MAGA? Journalist Batya Ungar-Sargon, author, journalist, and vocal Trump supporter, joins the discussion, with a take on all of this that you won't want to miss. 

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest:

Batya Ungar-Sargon, columnist The Free Press, author Second Class: How the Elites Betrayed America's Working Men and Women

Sources:

RFK and Donald Trump’s alliance 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/09/rfk-trump-health-maga/680011/

The anti-vaccine movement 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9981160/

MAHA’s agenda

https://thehill.com/newsletters/health-care/5144511-rfk-kennedy-maha-era-begins/

What is MAHA?

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/what-is-maha-health-wellness-movement-rfk-jr-policies.html

MAHA’s legislative goals 

https://www.axios.com/2024/11/14/maha-movement-federal-health-agencies

Recent history of the vaccine skeptical movement  

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/the-anti-vax-movement-hustl/

The MAHA Commission 

https://www.axios.com/2025/02/13/trump-maha-commission-rfk-chronic-illness

Republicans and Democrats Views on Vaccines

https://news.gallup.com/poll/648308/far-fewer-regard-childhood-vaccinations-important.aspx

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This week, in his first speech addressing the Department of Health and Human Services as its new chief, RFK Jr.  said the path to the country earning back trust was through transparency. 

As Kennedy was saying these words to a packed audience,  Texas was clocking in more measles cases, in what is turning out to be its worst measles outbreak in 30 years. With rising mistrust in public health and declining vaccination rates, measles - a disease we eradicated over 20 years ago is making a comeback, worrying many in public health. 

But two MAHA moms in their fifties we heard from on today's episode ask a question we are increasingly hearing more often these days: what's the big deal about measles?  Both these moms got it as children and recovered, missed a few days of school and then had lifelong immunity. Is public health over reacting? They point to a classic Brady Bunch episode where the kids all catch measles, reflecting how the virus was once considered a rite of passage, a harmless childhood illness. If anything, doesn't getting a disease strengthen the immune system?

Before the vaccine, measles claimed the lives of 500 children every year and hospitalized tens of thousands more, and sometimes led to severe complications in kids many years after they got sick. 

But now that we have a vaccine, what’s the real risk of measles today? And why is the measles vaccine -- while still popular among the vast majority of this country -- losing the trust of a small but growing group of Americans? In this episode, we welcome back Dr. Paul Offit, a leading expert on childhood vaccines, to explore the questions surrounding measles and dig into the facts about pharmaceutical funding while aiming to model a more constructive conversation.

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guests:

Yesenia Muhammad, Atlanta, MAHA Mom

Melinda Hicks, Atlanta, MAHA Mom

Dr. Paul Offit, pediatrician, infectious disease and vaccine specialist

Sources:

States looking to create exemptions for public school vaccine mandates:

https://apnews.com/article/vaccines-whooping-cough-rfk-measles-exemptions-covid-27dae6f61505ef1953ca869a78c71942

Public Attitudes on the MMR vaccine:

https://www.kff.org/health-information-and-trust/press-release/poll-trust-in-public-health-agencies-and-vaccines-falls-amid-republican-skepticism/#:~:text=Among%20parents%2C%20about%20seven%20in,the%20benefits%20

CDC numbers on risk from Measles
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/signs-symptoms/?CDC_AAref_Val=https://www.cdc.gov/measles/symptoms/complications.html#

Measles compromises immune memory

Measles virus infection diminishes preexisting antibodies that offer protection from other pathogens

Clinical Trial data on MMR:

[Simultaneous administration at different dosages of attenuated live virus vaccines against measles, mumps and rubella]. 

Clinical evaluation of a new measles-mumps-rubella trivalent vac

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A major source of mistrust in public health today is the belief that you can't sue a vaccine manufacturer if you suffer an adverse reaction. Many ask: Why should I trust vaccines if I can't hold vaccine makers accountable? For them, it sounds un-American, heavily biased toward Big Pharma, and proof that the system is rigged. It is something that the incoming health secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has spoken about often. 

But is it true? 

In this episode, we sit down with Dorit Reiss, a legal scholar specializing in vaccines and the law, to separate fact from fiction. We dive into why vaccine makers were ever granted any shield from liability to begin with. And we look at where America ultimately landed on this issue, by unpacking the facts and tracing the history. What we found surprised us. 

We asked: what recourse do people have if they experience a rare side effect and want accountability from a vaccine maker? What avenues exist today and do they work? Is our understandable desire to have available vaccines -- which have saved hundreds of millions of lives -- allowing room for a fair process to hold vaccine makers accountable for adverse reactions?

Plus, as Robert F. Kennedy Jr. now becomes the new leader of the Department of Health and Human Services, what potential changes could he bring to the vaccine landscape?

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest: 

Dorit Reiss, Professor of Law, University of California Law San Francisco; vaccine law specialist

Sources:

GAO report 2024 on how Covid vaccine compensation program is fairing

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-25-107368

New York Times from November 1986 on Reagan

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/15/us/reagan-signs-bill-on-drug-exports-and-payment-for-vaccine-injuries.html

Paul Offit on vaccine compensation history

https://pauloffit.substack.com/p/a-dangerous-time-for-americas-children-3bb

Washington Post 1987

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/03/06/administration-attacks-vaccine-law/a12c8353-e075-443c-b026-9a6ea00ff61b/

Time Magazine 2015
https://time.com/3995062/vaccine-injury-court-truth/

Newsweek 2023
https://www.newsweek.com/surge-vaccine-lawsuits-forces-biden-admin-hire-more-attorneys-1843385

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With the CIA now siding with the "lab leak" theory, President Trump reportedly considering cuts to “risky” virus research, Republican Senator Rand Paul firing off subpoenas, and President Biden’s pre-emptive pardon of Dr. Anthony Fauci, the fierce debate over COVID’s origins is only intensifying. And while many believe we’re no closer to an answer, the fight itself is deepening our national crisis of trust in science. 

In this episode, we sit down with David Wallace-Wells, science columnist for The New York Times who has written extensively about the origins of Covid, and Robert F. Garry, a leading virologist who found himself at the center of this storm after publishing a paper on COVID’s origins and being hauled in front of Congress. 

We explore how what began as a scientific question spiraled into a full-blown political battle, fueling a growing mistrust in science five years after COVID emerged.

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guests:

David Wallace Wells, science columnist, New York Times; author, The Uninhabitable Earth

Robert Garry, virologist; professor of microbiology/immunology/assistant dean, Tulane University School of Medicine

Sources:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/12/opinion/covid-lab-leak-theory.html

https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/45389-americans-believe-covid-origin-lab?redirect_from=%2Ftopics%2Fpolitics%2Farticles-reports%2F2023%2F03%2F10%2Famericans-believe-covid-origin-lab

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With Robert F. Kennedy Jr. testifying to become Trump’s Health and Human Services Secretary, optimism and joy are coursing through the ascendant Make America Healthy Again movement, while fear and confusion are taking hold in American public health circles. To critics, he is an outspoken vaccine skeptic and spreader of conspiracy theories. To supporters, he is a singular figure, a warrior able to take on a broken system that is responsible for America's chronic health epidemic. As the nomination was rolling forward, the Trump administration sent shockwaves through the public health community, freezing day-to-day operations and funding and overwhelming doctors and scientists who are asking: Is this typical fallout from a new presidential transition or the start of a campaign to control science? We’re joined by Travis Tripodi a longtime supporter of RFK Jr., as well as Dr. Katelyn Jetelina, a public health leader and author of the wildly popular substack "Your Local Epidemiologist".

Hosts:
Brinda Adhikari
Tom Johnson
Maggie Bartlett
Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guests:
Travis Tripodi, Braver Angels ambassador; independent consultant for health tech industry; RFK Jr. supporter (https://braverangels.org/)

Dr. Katelyn Jetelina, epidemiologist, author of newsletter Your Local Epidemiologist  (https://www.yourlocalepidemiologist.co/)

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