This week Sunday Times columnist Prof William Gumede wrote that the solution lies in forcing political leaders to use public services in order to improve them.

In this podcast, Gumede, associate professor at the School of Governance at Wits, and Prof Busani Ngcaweni, principal of the National School of Government, join our regular host Mike Siluma to discuss the proposition.

Gumede defends and expands upon his argument, while Ngcaweni broadly agrees with Gumede but identifies potential shortfalls in the implementation of such a plan.