With All Due Respect

* Warning: you may hear Megan and Michael munching on "Tumnus cake" throughout this episode. Head to the "Marge and Dave" section below for the recipe.

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

It’s Christmas – but should Christians be feasting or fasting?

It's hard to avoid excessive amounts of food at this time of year. But should Christians be taking a counter-cultural approach, just as in Orthodox traditions where people have fasted during Advent for centuries?

Megan and Michael explore the theology of food and offer a biblical understanding of Christmas feasting.

Mentioned in this segment:

• Bible passages:
  "Physical training is of some value ..." – 1 Timothy 4:8
  "Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them ..." – Mark 7:15
  Jesus invites the disciples to a BBQ breakfast on the beach – John 21
  Jesus feeds the five thousand – Matthew 14:13-21
  Paul advises Timothy to drink "a little wine" – 1 Timothy 5:23
  Paul corrects abuse of the Lord’s Supper (communion) – 1 Corinthians 11: 17-34
  "Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers ..." – Hebrews 13:2
  "Do not even eat with such people" – 1 Corinthians 5:11

• Dietrich Bonhoeffer, German theologian – quote about isolation and community

Further reading:

• Aleteia article: Christmas is coming — time to start fasting?

What’s going on? Going deeper into what’s happening in the church

Dinner Church Movement

In this brand new segment, Megan and Michael explore the relatively new Dinner Church Movement (which is actually based on ancient principles) and key thinker in this area, Kendall Vanderslice.

Mentioned in this segment:

• The Dinner Church Movement Facebook page
• Dinner Church Collective website
• Kendall Vanderslice website and book We Will Feast: Rethinking Dinner, Worship, and the Community of God
• Bible passages:
  Jesus is the "bread of life" – John 6:35
  "One does not live by bread alone ..." – Matthew 4:4
  The walk to Emmaus – Luke 24:13-35

Further reading:

• Religion News Service article: Dinner Church Movement sets the table for food, faith and friendships
• Christianity Today article: Power in the plate
• Faith and Leadership article: Kendall Vanderslice: Feasting brings people together in community

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

Food in The Chronicles of Narnia series by CS Lewis

Mentioned in this segment:

• Narnia recipes: Try your hand at making "Mr Tumnus’s Sugar-Topped Cake" (which Megan and Michael are munching on in this episode) or "Mrs Beaver's marmalade roll"
• Mark Sayers' This Cultural Moment podcast

Further reading:

• Notable food moments in The Chronicles of Narnia Wiki on Fandom website
• Intersect Project article: Nourishment, delight, and fellowship: The purpose of food in The Chronicles of Narnia

Join in the discussion online

www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

*Content warning: In the Marge & Dave section of this episode, the Netflix series discussed contains sexual assault.

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Evangelicalism: is it on the nose?

"To own the name evangelical is a difficult thing to do in public these days ... It perhaps means what fundamentalist meant 15-20 years ago," says Michael.

Megan clarifies: It's often equated with being a Trump voter.

So what does the term evangelical actually mean and how does it apply to Australian Christians today?

Mentioned in this segment:

• What is an Evangelical?, National Association of Evangelicals (using evangelical distinctives of historian David Bebbington)
• NAE, LifeWay Research Publish Evangelical Beliefs Research Definition
• Lifeway Research Many Who Call Themselves Evangelical Don’t Actually Hold Evangelical Beliefs
• Joel Osteen – American pastor, televangelist and author
• Hymn And Can it Be That I Should Gain

Further reading:

• 12 ways to be a true evangelical
• Australian College of Theology's June 2019 Nexus magazine (edited by Megan Powell du Toit)
• Evangelicals: Who They Have Been, Are Now, and Could Be, Mark Noll (Ed), David Bebbington (Ed), George Marsden (Ed) – coming soon

Be our guest: opening up the conversation to others

Stuart Piggin and Australian evangelical history

Winner of the 2019 Australian Christian Book of the Year award, Stuart Piggin, knows more about the true history of evangelical Christianity in Australia than most. He has been at the forefront of religious history study in Australia for more than three decades as Director of the Centre for the History of Christian Thought and Experience at Macquarie University (2005-16) and Head of the Department of Christian Thought of the Australian College of Theology.

On accepting this year's award for his book The Fountain of Public Prosperity: Evangelical Christians in Australian History 1740-1914 – written with Robert (Bob) Linder – Piggin said that we’ve “got our Australian history terribly wrong ... Jesus has been everywhere in Australia: in every community there are stories of him everywhere.”

On the release of his second book in the series, Attending to the National Soul: Evangelical Christians in Australian History, 1914-2014, Megan and Michael chat with Stuart about the massive impact of evangelicals on our nation.

Mentioned in this segment:

• Stuart Piggin's books (written with Robert D. Linder): the award-winning The Fountain of Public Prosperity: Evangelical Christians in Australian History 1740-1914 and the newly released Attending to the National Soul: Evangelical Christians in Australian History, 1914-2014

Further reading:

• A history of evangelical Christianity wins Australia's top Christian book

Glossary – Michael has been using big words again:

• Hegelian synthesis: the philosophy of 19th-century German philosopher G.W.F. Hegel which says there is a higher stage of truth that combines the truth of a thesis and an antithesis.
• Egalitarianism: the doctrine that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

Unbelievable

*Content warning: the Netflix series discussed contains sexual assault.

Michael leads us into the murky depths of the Netflix true crime series Unbelievable, starring Toni Collette. A dramatisation of the 2008-2011 Washington and Colorado serial rape cases, Unbelievable follows "Marie, a teenager who was charged with lying about having been raped, and the two detectives who followed a twisting path to arrive at the truth." The miniseries is based on the 2015 news article "An Unbelievable Story of Rape", written by T. Christian Miller and Ken Armstrong.

So what does this series say about the role not only of faith but of evangelicalism in society? Listen in to this episode to find out.

Also mentioned in this segment:

• Isaiah 6:8
• Song In Christ Alone

Further reading:

• This American Life podcast Anatomy of Doubt
• Article Unbelievable: Netflix Shows Christian Faith at Work

Join in the discussion online

www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Can social media be done well?

It's easy to dehumanise people in social media debates. Just look at the hurtful comments directed at 16-year-old Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg after she spoke at the UN's Climate Action Summit in September 2019.

So how do you disagree online without being aggressive? Is it OK for Christians to block or unfriend people? And how can Christians enter into social discussions without making Christianity look mean or dumb?

Mentioned in this segment:

• Michael's Facebook post about those who attacked Greta Thunberg for her Asperger's syndrome
• The Age of Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana Zuboff review – we are the pawns
• Michael's article: Through a Glass Darkly: Social Media and the Paradox of Virtual Intimacy
• Matt Anslow responds to Megan's article 'Social media spirituality': Social media and engaging rightly: in conversation with Megan Powell du Toit
• Megan's articles: Social media spirituality and How to negotiate the gender divide on social media

Further reading:

• Greta Thunberg's Digital Rise Calls Back to a Pre-Digital Era

You did WHAT now? A peek at what the other 'M' has been up to

Megan's article on how Christians should respond on social media to the same-sex marriage plebiscite 

During one of Australia's biggest social debates, Megan chose to speak out about how Christians should speak out online.

She raises this crucial point: What's more important to win arguments at all costs or our relationships with people and our gospel witness?

Mentioned in this segment:

• Social media and the SSM plebiscite: a how-to guide
• Bible verse: James 3:5
• The Guardian's review – The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray review – a rightwing diatribe

Further reading:

• Fact checking sites: Media Bias Fact Check, Associated Press Fact Check and Poynter International Fact Checking Network

Glossary:

• epistemologically - relating to a branch of philosophy that studies how we know things
• polemic - an aggressive attack on or defence of a particular opinion

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

Jan Fran's social media 

Can you review social media pages? Yep, looks like it.

Megan introduces Michael to Jeanette Francis, better known as Jan Fran – an Australian journalist and presenter, who is also queen of the short video Facebook post. There's a lot to learn from her about social media dos and don'ts.

Mentioned in this segment:

• Jan Fran’s Facebook and Twitter pages, as well as her website
• Jane Caro's Twitter page
• Julia Baird's Twitter page
• Jan Fran's video ScoMo: Scared of women? Or doesn't want to give up power?
• Jan Fran's video The Frant: Gender Wage Gap
• The Wife Drought – Why Women need Wives, and Men need Lives by Annabel Crabb

Join in the discussion online

www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Will the Religious Discrimination Bill be a good thing?

Freedom for Faith's executive director Michael Kellahan is in the hot seat, as Megan and Michael throw some contentious questions at him about the Religious Discrimination Bill:

• Don't we already have religious freedom in Australia?
• Can the bill actually create discrimination?
• Is a bill of rights – which also covers other freedoms – a better approach?

Mentioned in this segment:

• Draft Religious Freedom Bills – including the Religious Discrimination Bill
• Sydney Anglican Archbishop's apology over letter about religious freedom
• Hobart Catholic Archbishop case of religious freedom

Further listening/reading:

• With All Due Respect episode 5 – Public vs private schools, religious freedom and *that* letter on gay teachers
• A simple guide to the religious discrimination bill
• The Government’s Plans for Freedom of Religion Legislation

Discomfort zone: ever thought someone might think differently if they step outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that. 

The Madness of Crowds - Gender, Race and Identity by Douglas Murray

Michael chose this book knowing that Megan wouldn't like it. Guess what? She didn't. Written by a journalist for the UK's Spectator, the book tackles the epic issues of sexuality, gender, technology and race, as well as forgiveness and justice.

Mentioned in this segment:

• The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray
• The Guardian's review – The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray review – a rightwing diatribe
• Black Lives Matter movement

Glossary:

• Cultural Marxism: an ambiguous term and many believe that what it refers to doesn't really exist. The term is often used to flag behaviour that applies Marxist class theory to broader categories – such as race, gender and sexuality.
• Raison d'etre: A French phrase meaning 'reason for being'

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

The Post 

Megan introduces us to Steven Spielberg's gripping film on the true story of Washington Post journalists who attempted to publish classified documents about the US government's involvement in the Vietnam War. The film ring bells about the recent Australian police raids on the ABC. It also leads to the question: is freedom of the press worth defending, particularly in this era of fake news?

Mentioned in this segment:

• The Post

Further reading:

• AFP raid on ABC reveals investigative journalism being put in same category as criminality
• Katharine Graham's memoir Personal History
• Comparing 'The Post' to Katharine Graham’s memoir 

Join in the discussion online

www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Does the Trinity matter?

Warning: we're venturing into spiritually dangerous territory.

The Trinity has been in the news of late because of outspoken religious footballer Israel Folau. Folau and his church subscribe to a form of "oneness Pentecostalism", which doesn't hold to the doctrine of the Trinity – that God is three distinct persons in one.

So does the Trinity really matter or, as Michael asks, "is it just an arcane piece of theological knowledge designed to keep ministers busy?"

Mentioned in this segment:

• Eternity article by "Parent X" – Parent X: Why I told the SMH about Folau
• John Dickson's Facebook post about the Trinity
• Michael's (very old) article about the Trinity (written when he was five years old, reportedly) – The very practical doctrine of the Trinity

Further reading:

• Eternity article by Tom Richards – Israel Folau's problem with the Trinity
• Eternity article discussing the role of the Trinity, “Eternal Subordination” and gender – What the Bible teaches on women, according to a conservative subversive
• The Anglican Church's Sydney Diocese view on Trinity and gender – The doctrine of the Trinity and its bearing on the relationship between men and women

Clarification:

Just to prove the Trinity is a bit tricky, Megan and Michael confused each other at one point in this segment by talking about different things. So, when they are talking about the will of God, Megan was talking about the unity of the will of the Godhead while Michael was talking about the two wills of Jesus (divine and human).

Where credit's due

How our view of the Trinity is formed: creeds and confessions

Here's where we draw a line between the faith practices of our two favourite hosts: Megan is a Baptist, who are generally "non-credal" (ie. they believe the Bible is enough), whereas Michael is an Anglican, a denomination that has long used creeds.

So do we need formal statements of our beliefs? And which came first anyway: the creeds and confessions, or communal beliefs about the God we believe in, like the Trinity?

Mentioned in this segment:

• Baptist Church (NSW and ACT) statement of beliefs
• Anglican Church's Nicene Creed, Apostles' Creed and 39 articles
• Hillsong's song to the words of the Apostles' Creed – This I Believe – and John Dickson's role in the song's creation
• New Eternity podcast featuring John Dickson (thanks for the plug, Michael) – Undeceptions

Further listening:

• Hymn about the Trinity reimagined for modern audiences by Audrey Assad – Holy, Holy, Holy

Glossary - there's some heavy-duty words in this topic, so here's some definitions:

• creed: a formal statement of Christian beliefs
• Calvanistic: relating to the teachings of theologian John Calvin
• heremeneutical: a method of interpreting the Bible
• liturgy: a communal script used during church worship
• doxology: words of praise (often sung) during Christian worship services

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

John Donne: the poetry of the Trinity

Saucy, erotic and holy: three words you can use to describe the poetry of English writer and Anglican cleric John Donne. Megan and Michael venture into Donne's intimate exploration of the Trinity in a way that only poetry can.

Mentioned in this segment:

• “Batter my heart, three-person’d God”
•  “Wilt thou love God as He thee?”, along with Romans 8 and Psalm 8
• “Father, part of His double interest”
• Miroslav Wolf ("sexy theologian")

Further reading:

• Further poems by John Donne
• Eternity article on John Donne – Bringing Sexy Back 
• Article by the Gospel Coalition on the holy sonnets of John Donne – Battered by Donne: A Personal Appreciation of the Religious Poetry of John Donne

Glossary of tricky terms in this segment:

• lothario: a man who seduces a lot of women

Join in the discussion online

www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Are family values biblical?

What's more important, our nuclear family or our church family? Do we idolise marriage in the church and in society at the expense of other relationships?

Megan and Michael decode the cosy phrase "family values" and look at what the Bible actually says on the topic.

Mentioned in this segment:

• Book by Eli J. Finkel that outlines the history of marriage – The All-or-Nothing Marriage

Glossary:

Megan and Michael sometimes like to use big words, so here's a glossary of particularly lofty terms in this segment.

• deleterious: causing harm or damage
• raison d'etre: A French phrase meaning reason for being
• sesquipedalian: used to describe a word that's very long (OK this wasn't really mentioned in the segment but you see why it's applicable)

Be our guest

Dani Treweek and a theology of singleness

Our guest this episode, Dani Treweek, has spent a lot of time thinking about singleness and the church – as a single Christian woman, a minister and in writing her PhD on a theological and pastoral ethic of singleness.

"Part of the problem with singleness is that we see it as a problem because it's not marriage," she explains.

Michael and Megan chat with Dani about the biblical view of singleness and marriage, and how the church can better relate to singles.

Mentioned in this segment:

• Dani Treweek's blog on Sydney Anglicans website (addressing John MacArthur's views on singleness) –
  The "problem" with singleness
• Beth Felker Jones's book – Faithful: A Theology of Sex
• Singled Minded Conference

Further reading/ listening:

• Read the edited version of With All Due Respect's interview with Dani at Eternity – Single, not married, is the new church norm
• Other Eternity articles on singleness: Four myths about singleness and 10 dumb things Christians have said about being single
• Dani Treweek speaks about pastoring singles on The Pastor's Heart podcast
• Dani on being single and a Christian on the Centre for Christian Living podcast

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

ABC TV's Old People's Home For 4 Year Olds

This heartwarming ABC documentary raises a key social issue: our treatment of older people. "This is a bit of a weeping sore for us in the West," says Michael.

Megan points out that it also highlights the social isolation and lack of intergenerational contact in our society – experienced by both young and old.

Cue the church: "one of the only institutions left where we do have people of all ages coming together."

While the final live episode of Old People's Home For 4 Year Olds recently aired, you can watch all episodes in the series on ABC iview. Warning: box of tissues needed. (And stay tuned for Michael's suggested new series: Old People's Home For Teenagers. ABC, are you reading this?)

Further reading/ viewing:

• ABC TV's Old People’s Home For 4 Year Olds on iview
• Eternity article on Old People’s Home For 4 Year Olds 

Fact check:

Michael mentions a few statistics in this segment. Here's the research:

• 1 in 4 Australians live alone
• 10-40 per cent of community-dwelling older adults in developed countries experience depression, while up to half of people living in residential aged care facilities have significant depression symptoms
• "Older people who attend churches are happier and healthier"

Join in the discussion online

www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out 

As the NSW Parliament considers whether or not abortion should be legalised, Megan and Michael discuss the broader issues raised by the abortion debate:

• What does it mean to be pro-life or pro-choice? Can you be both at the same time?
• How do you balance the rights of the unborn child with women's agency over their own bodies?
• When does human life start anyway?
• Does legalising abortion automatically equate to an increase in the number of abortions?
• How should Christians respond to this increasingly politicised issue?

And what about the hot-button topics of gender selection and disability. Who determines whether or not a life is valuable?

Megan and Michael draw on the wisdom of a parent of a child with a disability, With All Due Respect listener Alison Preston, in debating this life-and-death issue.

One thing is clear: the law alone is inadequate in addressing a topic that requires a whole community response.

Mentioned in this segment:

• The NSW Reproductive Healthcare Reform Bill
• Alison Preston writes for Eternity about her decision to go through with her pregnancy and the joy her child has brought – The joy of having a baby with Down syndrome

Further reading:

• Eternity article on the Reproductive Health Care Reform Bill 2019 – Christians suggest changes to abortion bill 
• Eternity opinion article by Paul O’Rourke, CEO of pro-life media and advocacy organisation, Emily’s Voice – What the Bible says about abortion

You did WHAT now? Looking at what the other M has been up to

Michael, always prepared to put himself on the line, has been stepping into the charged abortion debate on social media and in the press in an attempt to change the tone of the conversation.

A descendant of "backyard abortionists", Michael is aware of the "real human cost of an unregulated abortion industry", as well as the moral complexity of the abortion issue.

He makes this vital point for everyone in the church: In a society where one-quarter of women will experience an abortion, "If you don't think you have women in your congregation who have had an abortion, think again."

So how can Christians respond graciously instead of aggressively to this polarising issue? Listen up to how Michael and Megan are doing it.

Mentioned in this segment:

• Michael's Facebook post and subsequent article in The Daily Telegraph – Pro-life or choice, abortion nothing to celebrate
• Michael's appearance on the ABC's The Drum program – Episode 154, September 5, 2019
• Eternity article on the first 'Stand for Life' protest – Thousands gather in Sydney in last ditch effort to stop abortion bill

Further reading:

• Eternity article on the second 'Stand for Life' protest – Abortion rally told ‘Choose Life!’
• Eternity opinion article by church minister Mike Paget – Yes, there's abortion in your church

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

Now we're squarely in Megan's domain: discussing Season 3 of the dystopian TV series The Handmaid’s Tale – in particular episodes 8, 9 and 13 (the final).

Why has this show become so connected to the abortion debate (so that just wearing a red cloak signals a pro-choice stance)?

Megan guides Michael, and listeners, through the undercurrents of death-happy Gilead, exploring the nuances of values, conflict, faith and society.

Here's a taste of just one of the profound revelations Megan uncovers: "Looking after children is more than just getting them born; it is about giving them good lives."

Further reading:

• Independent article on the show's connection to real life – The Handmaid's Tale compared to Alabama abortion law vote: 'This is happening in our country in 2019'
• Margaret Atwood speaks to Her about her book that sparked the TV series – The author of The Handmaid's Tale has plenty to say about anti-abortion laws
• Eternity articles on The Handmaid's Tale – Has The Handmaid's Tale become ho-hum and The Handmaid’s Tale: religion gone wrong

Welcome back! Season two of With All Due Respect starts with a bang ...

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out 

It's game on as Megan and Michael address the elephant in the room: the issue of gender in the church.

This topic marks one of the deepest divides among evangelical Christians, and the church in general. It's also one of the biggest disagreements between Megan and Michael personally (and the discussion that Michael's been avoiding because of the painful responses it can provoke).

So what should women do in the church and why does it matter anyway?

It's time for Megan and Michael to tie their colours to the mast: exactly what do they think about the "c word" (complementarianism) and the "e word" (egalitarianism), what's the biblical basis for these positions and how do they play out in the life of Christians and the church today.

While on opposite sides of the debate, both Megan and Michael agree that this is not just a "women's issue".

Further reading:

• Michael has written on feminism for Eternity – Perhaps feminism is not the enemy
• Megan has written on sex and power in the church for Eternity – Christians need to reform their ideas about sex and power

Also mentioned in this segment:

• Created Or Constructed? Great Gender Debate by Elaine Storkey
• Michael gives a shout-out to Matt Anslow, a member of the With All Due Respect Facebook group, who asked the following question (abbreviated): “My assumption is that God, being wholly good, gives us commands that are for our good ... Complementarians, at least as far as I’m aware, are unable to point to any objective good secured by prohibiting women from exercising these certain ministry roles. Usually the reason given for upholding these teachings is simply that God has commanded it in Scripture, and exegetical arguments ensue.
  Keeping in mind that such commands are seen by many Christians as only being intended for and applicable to their original contexts, what objective goods do complementarians think are being secured by upholding their teaching on ministry roles?”

Q&A: you ask us questions, and we answer without the spin

You can’t ask that! Oh but you did, and Megan and Michael asked you to. The pair field a handful of some 600 questions about gender identity and the church thrown at them by members of With All Due Respect Facebook group – a community of Christians committed to respectful public conversation.

Megan goes into bat for the "feminist egalitarian" team and Michael the "moderate complementarian" team.

Here's just a taste of some of the curly questions they address: Isn't egalitarianism just about women seeking power? Does complementarianism always lead to abuse?

Mentioned in this segment:

• Both Megan and Michael have chapters in the book The Gender Conversation: Evangelical Perspectives on Gender, Scripture and the Christian Life.
  Megan’s chapter is about gender construction, culture and Scripture, calling for both men and women to image Christ.
  Michael's chapter is about responding to domestic and family violence by understanding the new call to mutuality and transformed masculinity.

The secret life of us: what makes the other one tick

Time to get personal.

Michael asks Megan, "Am I a misogynist?"

Megan asks Michael, "Do you think I'm called by God?"

After this epic first ep for season two, our co-hosts may not have solved the issues around gender roles in the church but hopefully we've reached a starting point for mutual respect, understanding and further conversation. 

** With All Due Respect is taking a short break over August and will be back in the first week of September. First episode back with be about ... GENDER. **

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out 

It's been almost a year since the the first episode of With All Due Respect, and we're coming back to the question that started it all: Can we agree to disagree?

Megan says this has become even more crucial since the WADR project began.

But it's confession time and Michael jumps straight in:

There's one topic that Megan and Michael (and Michael in particular) have been avoiding so far: Gender and the church. It's a topic that marks a deep divide among evangelical Christians, and Christians more generally. It's one of the biggest disagreements Megan and Michael have personally, too. And Michael says he's been avoiding the issue on the podcast because of the painfulness and difficulty that discussing it can often invoke.

So how do we tear down those barriers with other Christians who feel so strongly and differently to us? We may never get to common agreement, but trying to find common ground and to understand where each other is coming from should be the aim.

Megan says one of the ways she tries to interact with people is remember that that person has just as rich an internal world as she does - with all their life experiences, hurts and joys. So labelling someone (Megan is often labelled as a "progressive feminist") flattens them. And she says assuming someone else's intentions is just as bad in this.

Cue: virtue signalling

Megan says one way you can assume someone else's intentions - especially online - is by saying they're "virtue signalling". That is, when you are expressing values in a way that people say you're doing it so that you can be seen to be a good person. In Megan's experience, it's often something the right accuses of people on the left.

"It's a destructive thing to say to another person and deeply cynical," she says.

"The place for dialogue is not where we draw out the worst in people, but where we address the best in people."

But telling someone that they're virtue-signalling is essentially shutting down the conversation and refusing to see that there might be other reasons for what they're saying.

Michael wonders if the same can be said when someone dismisses his opinion by saying, "You would say that, you're a white male."

Both Megan and Michael refer to the With All Due Respect Facebook group, where they are trying to moderate the discussion in a way that reframes conversations and doesn't shut down discussion by the terms and phrases we use.

The duo take a look at other Christian podcasts out there who have attempted to frame their conversations in different ways and wonder if often our fences are too high. Is there a place for fences that discourage those who disagree with us?

The secret life of us: what makes the other one tick

Megan and Michael talk about how they've experienced the With All Due Respect journey and what's come up personally for them.

The WADR Facebook Group has been an interesting experiment to see how things in the podcast play out in real (or atleast social) life.

And Michael and Megan reminisce about how they first met and their first responses to each other.

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones. 

This episode, it's Megan's choice: Won’t you be my neighbor? (2018) documentary on Mister Rogers.

Fred Rogers (March 20, 1928 – February 27, 2003) was an American television personality, musician, puppeteer, writer, producer, and Presbyterian minister. He was known as the creator, composer, producer, head writer, showrunner and host of the preschool television series Mister Rogers' Neighborhood (1968–2001). Rogers would end each program by telling his viewers, "You've made this day a special day, by just your being you. There's no person in the whole world like you; and I like you just the way you are."

Megan thinks there are real connections in what they're trying to do with With All Due Respect. 

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out 

While beauty can be an abstract subject, it's also something that cuts into our everyday lives. Megan and Michael wanted to talk about this subject because they both feel the evangelical world can feel a bit confining when talking about beauty. Megan says her experience of baptists in particular is that they have a strained relationship with beauty.

"There's a suspicion of the beautiful, which goes back to the church fathers," says Michael. Something also happens during the Reformation, when Protestants want to get away from the visual, smash the statues and go back to the verbal. Luther even said that the ears are the organ of the Christian, not the eyes.

Evangelicalism is quite a pragmatic faith. "We're not cathedral builders," says Michael. "We want to things to make a difference," says Megan, so the feeling is that there's no time for "frippery".

Michael and Megan explore what beauty is - is it just 'high art' or is it broader than that? What can nature teach us about beauty? And is there a commonality of the experience of beauty that might be objective truth?

Megan has been reading Culture Care by Makoto Fujimura - an artist, academic and Christian -which issues a call to feed our culture's soul with beauty, creativity and generosity. As many Christians become more embattled in culture wars, Fujimura is asking how Christians can be people who draw others into beauty.

Also mentioned in this segment:

• The deepening crisis is evangelical Christianity in The Atlantic: "Evangelical Christians need another model for cultural and political engagement, and one of the best I am aware of has been articulated by the artist Makoto Fujimura, who speaks about “culture care” instead of “culture war."

Where credit's due: the influences that form and move us

It's Megan's turn to pick a book that was meaningful to her: Surprised by Joy by CS Lewis - the story of Lewis being converted to belief in God and then eventually to belief in Christianity.

Lewis' experience of beauty - which he calls experiences of joy - resonated with Megan, particularly when Lewis talks of creating imaginative worlds with his brothers as a child.

Michael says he picked up on the sense of longing through Lewis' work -  deep in the heart of humans there is something that longs for the eternal.

Beauty, says Megan, shows us that things are significant, special. As the poet Gerard Manley Hopkins writes, "The world is charged with the grandeur of God."

Further reading:

• Michael has written on beauty for Eternity – Are Christians scared of beauty? and Why is there beauty in the world?

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones. 

We're talking transcendent music and faith. And Michael wants to talk about Bach: "The Christian who has done more to advance the cause of beauty than anyone is Johann Sebastian Bach," he says.

Megan, on the other hand, says the music that makes her think of beauty is African American spirituals: "there's a beauty in the sadness, but yet the hope ... there's a beauty that comes out of a the experience of humanity." One song in particular featured in season 3 of The Handmaid's Tale during a scene of infant baptism, 'Down to the river to pray'.

Also mentioned in this segment:

• Well-Tempered Clavier, Bach
• Mass in B Minor, Bach
• O Sacred Head Sore Wounded (From St Matthew's Passion, Bach)
• Down to the River to Pray, Alison Krauss version as seen on The Handmaid's Tale