With All Due Respect

Happy Valentine's Day, listeners! 

"Give your loved one a book this Valentine's Day," suggests Michael Jensen in this episode dedicated to the love of books: The Good Book, other books and a book on good reading.

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

How should we read the Bible today?  Megan and Michael ponder how the Bible is different to any other book. What in the world does a "plain reading of the text" mean when we're talking about the Bible? What part does church play in how we read it? Can you be a better Bible reader than someone else? And what about the Holy Spirit's role in showing us the truth? (Pssst ... heads up ... they also touch on the role of women in the church and the varying biblical interpretations. Deep breath.)

Mentioned in this segment:

Graeme Goldsworthy's Gospel and Kingdom

The Suffering Servant, Isaiah 53

QandA: you ask us questions, and we answer without the spin.  

Megan and Michael try and answer a listener question from Rachel: “Should children be allowed to read fiction that is non-Christian in some way, specifically thinking about things like ‘Harry Potter’? And if not, why is it different to other fantasies like ‘Narnia Chronicles’ or ‘The Lord of the Ring’ trilogy?

Both agree that stories of all kinds can be enriching and helpful to our understanding of the gospel. The duo also outline how they attempted to direct their own respective children towards some stories over others. 

And, sigh of relief, they both declare Harry Potter as having some pretty big implicit Christian themes. Tune in to find out more, particularly about the Sorting Hat and to hear their discussion on  whether Harry Potter is a celebration of witchcraft and the occult (and whether that should be problematic for Christians). 

Mentioned in this segment: 

·       C.S. Lewis, Narnia

·       Tolkien, Lord of the Rings

·       J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter series

·       Phillip Pullmann, His Dark Materials series

Marg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same ones

This episode, Megan and Michael review Karen Swallow Prior's On Reading Well: Finding a good life through great books and discuss the politicisation of books, what that means for how we read and why it matters for how we talk to each other. 

Mentioned in this segment: 

·       Karen Swallow Prior, On reading well

·       Aristotle, Nichomachean Ethics

·       Background on Prior

In For Arguments Sake, Megan and Michael do us all a favour and explain what exactly is the culture war. With that out of the way, they try to put party politics aside and discuss examples of such warfare - and whether Christians should be trying to win these battles. Shockingly, Michael and Megan had starkly different reactions to that Gillette ad when they first saw it but they push through to explore the hot button topic of toxic masculinity. From here, it's head-long into the vexing issue of how to respond to the war "out there".

Michael puts Megan into the Discomfort Zone by asking her to read the enormously titled 'The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure' by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt. Perplexed by the choice of title and how it fuels the culture war, Megan also has some issues with the solutions offered to the problems raised by Lukianoff and Haidt. But what 'Coddling' opens up is a meaty discussion about resilience, morality and always placing your feelings or experience above everything else.

Finally, in Marg and Dave, Michael finally convinced Megan to see controversial musical The Book of Mormon (finishing in Sydney but about to go to Brisbane). With both stressing that it's a shocking show - "the most profane production I've ever seen," reports Megan - Michael upholds the other surprise factors on offer. Turns out you can get lessons on belief, suffering and Western stereotypes from the potty-mouthed creators of South Park.

• Michael’s SMH review 
• Michael’s Eternity article
  
  
  

In For Argument’s Sake, Megan and Michael tackle the upcoming visit to Australia by evangelist Franklin Graham (son of legendary preacher Billy). They focus upon the controversy surrounding Franklin Graham's visit and how he doesn't have the same ability to unite Christians as his father. With Franklin Graham's vocal support for President Trump stirring widespread debate, Megan explains she has other concerns about his relationship with the politics of power and sexuality. Both Michael and Megan ask: should you attend a gospel event led by a person you disagree with?

In Discomfort Zone, Megan asked Michael to do something outside his usual sphere - read Rebecca Traister's book Good and Mad: The Revolutionary Power of Women's Anger (particularly one lengthy section about President Trump). Michael has questions for Megan about solidarity between women around the world before our duo dive into the biblical concept of vengeance. Oh, and whether anger is only associated with men. And how can anger be responded to.

Then, in Marg and Dave, Megan and Michael dare to enter Netflix series Black Mirror, a near-future commentary about humanity's misuse of technology. Megan and Michael watched the episode Nosedive - about one woman (Bryce Dallas Howard) experiencing a harsh rating system - and marvel at its clear parallels with our world. But what does judging each other have to do with Christianity? Oh, wait ...

We revisit episode 7 of With All Due Respect:

In For Argument's Sake, Megan and Michael tackle some holiday-themed sticky questions: Is Easter better than Christmas? Should we really be giving Christmas presents?

Megan points to an essay by G.K. Chesterton on the theology of Christmas presents. Find out why the duo think material gifts can be quite an important tradition, with a theological basis.

Michael suggests that Christmas is a display of God's abundance. It's also an ideal that can often be a terrible judge on those who don't match that ideal. And so, says Megan, "our abundance must not be a selfish abundance ... it should flow out onto the lowly, the unloved ... the lonely."

In a new Q&A segment, Megan and Michael answer a listener question: As two leaders in conservative denominations, how does the Holy Spirit move in your own lives? How open are you both to the prophetic and to signs and wonders? -- asked by Kirsty Farrugia (who also has her own podcast!)

Megan and Michael unpack what 'conservative' might mean in that question, running through their own denominations (Megan: Baptist, Michael: Anglican) and the variety of 'types' you can find in those denominations. Then they get straight into speaking in tongues, dreams and visions. Have either of them experienced such things? And do they think it matters if they haven't? Tune in to find out.

Check out some of the other suggested questions, here.

Then, in Marg and Dave, Megan and Michael review Christmas carols! What is the theology and background of the carols we sing every year.

Hint: they're not sure about Away in a manger ... of course Jesus cried as a baby!

They've created a Spotify carols playlist, for your listening pleasure. Check it out here. And here a few helpful resources to get deeper into the background of some of the most popular carols:

• Hark! the herald angels sing
• Mary, Did you know? (an example of the kind of discussion around this carol)
• O Come All Ye Faithful and the Jacobites
• Silent Night and war

In For Argument's Sake, Megan and Michael delve into the depths of confusion about what happens after death. They note that most Christians - well, most people actually - are pretty fuzzy on this topic. It was politicians answering Greg Sheridan's questions on what happens when we die, for his book God is Good For You, that prompted Megan and Michael to explore this more.

Both agree that our culture continues to have a "cartoon-like" understanding of heaven and hell, and they try to uncover what we do know from the Bible about the afterlife, and what remains a mystery.

Then, in the Secret Life of Us, Megan and Michael escape from the theoretical and delve into their personal experiences with death and grief. "This is where the rubber hits the road in living the Christian life, with these experiences of grief," says Michael.

In this segment, Megan shares about her miscarriage on Good Friday and experiences of suffering through depression. Megan and Michael grapple with the "sadness" and "badness" of death, and examine what a good response to death and suffering might look like.

Continuing the afterlife theme, on Marg and Dave, our dynamic duo check out the super popular Netflix series The Good Place. Warning: spoilers!

In For Argument's Sake, Michael and Megan talk about the "real blow up" that is the religious freedom debate circling around whether Christian schools should be able to discriminate in the hiring of staff and selection of students. Triggered by a bill from the Greens, there has been heated debate about a letter from 34 Anglican schools in Sydney, organised by the Anglican Archbishop Glenn Davies which supported the schools' right to uphold the Christian ethos of their school in their choice of teachers. Read more about the backlash, which included protests and apologies, here. Also, here is the letter from Anglican Principals, a letter in response from school alumni and the apology from the Archbishop. Phew. What a mess (and check out this Media Watch about the whole saga as it was reported in the media)  "It really went feral, didn't it?" Michael says.

In the discussion, Michael and Megan try to get to the bottom of what it is that Christians are actually arguing for in this latest iteration of the religious freedom debate? And ... is it a fair thing to be seeking to protect?

Then, Michael and Megan get into The Secret Life of Us, a new segment in which they try to figure out what makes the other tick. The topic? How their school experiences have shaped their worldview.

Just FYI: Michael went to North Newtown Public then Trinity Grammar (an Anglican boys school). Megan went to Loftus Public, Ferncourt Public, Campbelltown North Public, Kent Rd Public and Peter Board High. So, let the arguments begin about private vs public schooling.

Moving on to Marg and Dave, Megan chose the much-hyped Boy Swallows Universe by Trent Dalton and called it "one of the great Australian novels". While the novel takes a good look at the "underbelly of Brisbane society", Megan said she found it "quite a joyful novel". Does Michael agree? Listen in to find out.

The book, says Megan, asks questions like, What is it to be a good person? How can I redeem myself? What motivates someone to be good? Listen to Trent Dalton talk about the book's connection to his life on ABC's Conversations podcast.

For Argument's Sake

Michael wrote a response to an article by Stephen McAlpine, an evangelical pastor and blogger in Western Australia, on apologetics, which argued that the era of nice apologetics is over.

What is apologetics? It's nothing to do with saying sorry but it's giving a defence of the Christian message in the public square. Michael and Megan discuss Stephen's contention that artful persuasion doesn't work because it's perceived as a mask for power.

The Discomfort Zone

Michael persuaded Megan to read God is Good For You by The Australian's Greg Sheridan (Read Greg's profile here).
Megan wouldn't have kept going after the first chapter's polemic on the dire state of Christianity if she didn't have to, but in the middle of the book she found some riches she really enjoyed. Michael likes Greg's defence of Christianity as intellectually respectable but both feel that Greg glosses over the real problems that have afflicted the church.

Marg & Dave 

For The Love of God, a documentary by the Centre For Public Christianity, by contrast, is very honest about the stuff that the church has done badly historically. Megan says it answers a lot of the things she had problems with in Greg Sheridan's book but she has a quibble about the film's coverage of women ...

In For Argument's Sake, Megan and Michael argue over the validity of a new statement delivered from the US called The Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel, which suggests social justice movements are leading people away from Jesus. It's a topic Megan is particularly passionate about: she's doing her doctoral research on it, in fact.

The pair discuss the huge controversy over the statement, including amongst people you'd think would have agreed. So ... is social justice the gospel? And if it's not, how do you distinguish the two? Tune in to hear the arguments.

Here are a few other commentators that Megan and Michael refer to in this discussion:

Al Mohler. Ryan Burton King. Russell Moore. Tim Keller. John Stott.

In the Discomfort Zone, Megan suggests reading Lisa Sharon Harper's book, The Very Good Gospel, which Megan says gives a very 'social justice flavour' to the gospel. 

Then, in Marg and Dave, Michael and Megan listen to Hozier, and talk about the lyrics that can get under your skin, the visceral anger the artist has against the Catholic church and what Hozier, and the Bible, have to say about sex.

Michael and Megan disagree about the role emotion plays in theology (Michael edited a book on emotion, which you can find here). They argue about whether emotions are a source of theology, why (and if) evangelicals place so much emphasis on reason over emotion and Megan asks if it might be to do with the traditional view that men are more rational and women are more emotional.

If you weren't already uncomfortable, in the Discomfort Zone, Michael challenges Megan to read a section of John Calvin's Institutes on prayer which he says "transformed" his prayer life ... but Megan isn't too fussed with what she read. Instead, she offers a few books of her own on prayer that had a similar transformational effect (Prayer: finding the heart’s true home, Richard Foster and The Transforming Friendship: a guide to prayer, James Houston. She's also currently reading A Praying Life, Paul Miller)

Then in Marg and Dave, Megan suggests they watch Nanette, Australian comedienne Hannah Gadsby's stand-up performance for Netflix which has been heralded around the world.

Rev Dr Michael Jensen, rector at St Mark’s Anglican Darling Point, author, public commentator. 

Rev Megan Powell du Toit, ordained Baptist minister, Publishing Manager of the Australian College of Theology, editor of the journal Colloquium.

Episode 1:

• The Drum, ABC, 30 August 2018 (Michael on)
• Global Neighbour Index, Baptist World Aid Australia
• No Room Domestic Violence Report, Baptist Care Australia
• Tonightly Scott Morrison song
• The Wife Drought, Annabel Crabb 

The Handmaid’s Tale TV series, The Handmaid’s Tale book, Margaret Atwood

Megan’s articles on The Handmaid’s Tale: Ethos Season 1, Ethos Season 2, FHE Season 2