With All Due Respect

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out 

Do you need to 'experience' God in order to have real faith? Michael says he suggested this question because in his pastoral experience there are often questions about whether people should have had a spiritual or religious experience and whether you're a Christian if you haven't had one. 

What if you don't ever have that feeling some describe as an "immediate, powerful, palpable experience of the spirit" that can be of great encouragement to those who receive them? 

Megan offers the flipside to this, in that she believes that some in a more intellectually-based faith tradition are often questioned about their spiritual experiences in a way that makes them feel like they're in some way "dodgy". 

The way different faith communities deal with spiritual or religious experience can make this subject fraught. 

Michael says his views have changed and he hopes 'matured'. He believes God can give us religious experiences from time to time: they are individual and meant to encourage us. But because they are experiences we must be very careful, he says. We shouldn't normalise those experiences to the extent that those with different ones don't feel like they're Christians or don't feel like they have the Holy Spirit. 

Megan has a different perspective, coming from her observations of those who don't 'experience God'. "Without experience, faith is ailing," she says. "The experience of God must be present ... but whether we're noticing it is another thing." The way we talk about those experiences and how we teach people to understand them is sub-par in the church today, Megan says. 

How can we help people to be attentive to God in their lives. Megan believes a pastor must first be attentive to God in their own lives. "There needs to be more room for the contemplation part of the pastoral role," she argues. If you're also immersed in Scripture, you come to understand better how God speaks and acts. Michael says it's also about teaching people to pray. Bible study should also be a place for spiritual direction. It doesn't have to be just about reading the word and understanding the word, but about how to take that understanding into our lives to see the hand of God at work. 

Listening to others' experiences of God might also make us more attune to the work of God in our own lives, says Megan. It doesn't always have to be listening to God at the top of a mountain or in a cave - it's seeing God in your every day experience, how he meets needs. There is an attentiveness required. 

A lot of the time the people who say they haven't had an experience of God just need help with the vocabulary to use. 

Michael warns against the dangers of making experience so much in the foreground that we forget to parse it through Scripture. "We don't have a fresh revelation that overturns scripture." 

Also mentioned in this segment:

• The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James

The secret life of us: in which we try to figure out what makes the other one tick

Megan and Michael discuss their own religious experiences and how they've affected their faith. They look back at how such experiences were spoken about in their families of origin. 

Michael says he grew up in a Christian household often trying to deal with the tension of being treated as a Christian for as long as he could remember but also waiting for that moment of 'conversion'. He says he certainly had an intellectualised sense of the faith especially in later teens and university. 

Megan, on the other hand, says her mother is a person who has had many supernatural experiences and so she grew up talking a lot about those experiences and having some of her own. 

The duo also open up about when they've felt spiritually dry and how they've managed to come back to God. 

Also mentioned in this segment:

• CS Lewis’ Surprised by Joy: “For those who are still disposed to proceed I will only underline the quality common to the three experiences; it is that of an unsatisfied desire which is itself more desirable than any other satisfaction. I call it Joy, which is here a technical term and must be sharply distinguished both from Happiness and from Pleasure. Joy (in my sense) has indeed one characteristic, and one only, in common with them; the fact that anyone who has experienced it will want it again.” 

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones. 

Les Murray (17 October 1938 – 29 April 2019) was a prize winning Australian poet, anthologist, and critic. His career spanned over 40 years and he published nearly 30 volumes of poetry as well as two verse novels and collections of his prose writings. He was rated in 1997 by the National Trust of Australia as one of the 100 Australian Living Treasures.

Murray's poetry is full of his religious experience. He said it was because that was his experience. 

"The true god gives his flesh and blood. Idols demand yours off you." That quote, says Michael, which is from Murray's poem Church, should be on church signs everywhere. "It points to the significance of Christ in this consumer economy that sucks us dry," says Michael. 

Poems mentioned in this segment: 

• Poetry and Religion
• An Absolutely Ordinary Rainbow
• The Broad Bean Sermon
• The Last Hellos
• The Church

Further reading: 

• Greg Clarke reflects on Les Murray after his death: Not absolutely ordinary at all
• Les Murray's conversion experience, as written by Catholic Weekly
• Thomas Keneally on Murray's death

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out 

Can we (Christians, that is!) do politics without being partisan? There's been a storm since Australians discovered the outcome of the Federal election, particularly within the Aussie Christian community. Some Christians seem unable to believe that there are others of their faith who would have voted the opposite of them. And because the outcome of the election was so unexpected, there was a lot of "unvarnished" gut reactions on social media.

Megan and Michael discuss whether it's possible to remain a 'Christian community' when we are so tribalised. And what part should prayer play when it comes to praying for our leaders, especially for those with whom we strongly disagree?

Both Megan and Michael agree that Christians don't need to be apolitical. We are told to have a drive for justice. But how can we do it better? Megan suggests acknowledging real emotions on either side is a good place to start. The pair candidly share how they personally voted, discussing the reasons for their choice and try to model how to respectfully disagree on political priorities while holding to core truths of the gospel.

Also mentioned in this segment:

• Donald Trump turning up unannounced at a Virginian church in the middle of a service for prayer.
• Unapologetic by Francis Spufford

Discomfort Zone: ever think someone might think differently if they step outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that.

Michael gets to choose the book this episode and it is ... The Second Mountain: The quest for the moral life by David Brooks. Brooks is a Canadian-born American centre-right political and cultural commentator who writes for The New York Times.

Everybody tells you to live for a cause larger than yourself, but how exactly do you do it? Brooks explores what it takes to lead a meaningful life in a self-centred world.

Megan says she certainly wouldn't have read the book had Michael not suggested it. But she really liked it. "It's like the book that I would have written if I was a conservative dude," she says jokingly. But Brooks' emphasis on joy and community also captured her attention.

Michael says he sees this book as one that he can use in pastoring people, especially those in their 40s who are looking to disentangle from their individualism and look to something greater.

In his book, Brooks argues that such individualism makes people so disconnected that they flock to their "tribe", and contributes to the 'us' and 'them' issues we have in politics.

Read more on Christian discussion of David Brook's book:

• On The Gospel Coalition website: David Brooks on his journey as a wandering Jew and a confused Christian  
• From Christianity Today: How David Brooks meandered toward God 

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones. 

We're looking at Derry Girls this week. You can watch the first season on Netflix.

Derry Girls is a comedy set in Derry, Northern Ireland. It’s about the lives of ordinary people living under the spectre of the Troubles in the early nineties, all seen through the eyes of 16 year old Erin and her friends. Writer Lisa McGee bases the story on her own experiences of growing up in Northern Ireland as a normal sixteen year old girl amidst civil conflict.

How does a community with those deep divisions go about living in it?

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out 

Empathy has become immensely popular. Why?

We have a desire to be understood. We want empathy to be shown to us. And we want to be able to stand in other people's shoes so we can communicate to them.

Empathy is something Megan and Michael have been speaking about together for quite some time. And it may or may not surprise you that they disagree. Megan is pro empathy. Michael is not.

Michael has been reading Against Empathy by Paul Bloom which argues that empathy has become a substitute for morality. And while it has its uses, there are problems with empathy including:

• Empathy is biased. We're more likely to show someone empathy who is like us.
• While what's great about empathy is it focuses on the person in front of us, it makes it very hard to think of the thousands or millions who are suffering, from an empathetic point of view.
• Empathy can be manipulated.

Megan, on the other hand, says the way she views empathy has a Christian basis which may not necessarily be how the rest of society views it. There's an other-centred empathy that tries to get across difference, rather than an empathy that ends up directed just towards others in your own group - which is one of the critiques of empathy in modern times.

Megan and Michael grapple with the definitional problems with empathy: what is it, exactly?

Also mentioned in this segment:

• The End of Empathy, article on NPR by Hanna Rosin
• Dark Sides of Empathy by Fritz Breithaupt
• Alan Alda's conversation with Paul Bloom: Is empathy good or bad?
• Daniel Goleman 'The EQ guy' on types of equity.
• Brené Brown on empathy

Discomfort Zone: ever think someone might think differently if they step outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that.

Megan asks Michael to watch Brené Brown's Netflix special on courage. His initial reaction was to say, "I thought that was a girl thing." Perhaps you can imagine Megan's response?

Michael says he enjoyed watching it and learning more about Brené Brown, partially because she's funny, but also because she can be very insightful.

Both Michael and Megan draw connections between Brené Brown and Jordan Peterson, though they come to very different opinions on both.

Brené Brown also talks a lot about shame, arguing in broad strokes that shame for women is around body issues and shame for men is showing weakness. Megan and Michael reflect personally on whether they agree with her analysis.

Also mentioned in this segment:

• Brené Brown's TED Talk on vulnerability
• Megan's review article on Brené Brown's Netflix special for Eternity

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones. 

Megan's choice this episode: The Darkest Hour, the 2017 war drama film about Winston Churchill.

Churchill and Brené Brown might seem to be an odd couple for this episode, but actually The Darkest Hour brings out a lot to talk about empathy in leadership.

The common perception of Churchill is all around the strength of his leadership. But Megan says what surprised her in this movie is his vulnerability and doubt.

Megan and Michael discuss what it takes to be a good leader, using Churchill and his experiences as their guide. Is having empathy enough?

Can you both love the church and think it sucks at the same time? Well, it's probably what Jesus thinks, says Michael. So we think yes, it's possible!

This topic, says Megan, is inspired by the With All Due Respect Facebook group and members (if you'd like to join, click here). In a thread where members introduce themselves, Michael and Megan realised there were a lot of people who've been really hurt by the church.

Michael suggests reading Paul's letters to the Corinthians in the New Testament, where Paul calls the Corinthians 'saints' and yet is pretty scathing of some of their behaviour. In the Bible, there is never a perfect church. It's about the people of God living out their relationship with God as sinners. That doesn't mean we're happy with that, but it does tell us there's a normality about it - tragic as that is.

Megan points to a movement called "Ex-vangelicals", a reaction against the church mainly in the United States, after evangelicals got tied up in support of Donald Trump. There are also plenty of memoirs about those exploring their faith and 'coming out' of conservatism. See Rachel Held Evans and Sarah Bessey, as examples.

Megan and Michael discuss the cultural stereotype that has arisen around the word 'evangelicals' and whether a similar movement of ex-vangelicals might be seen in Australia. As an evangelical himself, Michael is not so sure.

The duo also discuss how to respond to those people who have had a bad experience of church in a local community setting versus those who take broader issue with the church as an institution. Michael encourages people to keep up their search for a good church, and not to give up on meeting with other Christians because churches can fail very badly. There can also be great healing in the local church with fellow believers, he says.

And how should we deal with critiques of the church? Megan suggests that members of the church, and leaders in particular, need to be critiquing themselves as well as listening carefully to others. More on that in the Marg and Dave segment this week.

Also mentioned in this segment:

• Lego Masters Eternity article

Where credit's due: talking the influences that form and move us

This is a new segment, where Megan and Michael get to share things that they really like!

Michael get to choose this week: Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. 

Bonhoeffer was writing this book in the 1930s while he was in charge of a small underground seminary that had broken away from the German Christian mainstream movement because of its allegiance to Hitler. The seminary was set up on a farm and he was training pastors there, while trying to find new footing for the church.

"It's a very intense book. But I think it's amazing," says Michael.

Megan's impression was that Bonhoeffer is writing from a place of disappointment in the church, which makes it quite appropriate for this episode.

There's plenty in this discussion about what good community as church really means. But also, says Michael, he appreciated what Bonhoeffer says about solitude. While we do need our alone time with God, that's part of being in community.

Our relationship with God is something we share with each other, says Megan.

What is some advice on returning to church for someone who hasn't been to church for a while? 

Megan suggests asking whether there is someone in their lives who they think, 'Wow, I'd love to have that person in a Christian community.' That might be a good place to start. Connect with them first.

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones. 

It's cartoon time! Megan and Michael take a look at The Naked Pastor cartoons. Michael is less familiar with them than Megan, who says there is a lot of take up of these cartoons by people who are feeling dissatisfied with church.

The artist was a pastor who has moved out of pastoring and it's not clear where he stands on Christianity.

"I help people lose their faith without losing their minds," the artist says.

The cartoons themselves is pretty much all critique, which Megan finds amusing often but Michael isn't sold.

Here are some of the cartoons talked about in this segment:

https://nakedpastor.com/warning-questions-will-lead-you-astray/

https://nakedpastor.com/becoming-my-most-popular-women-and-the-resurrection/

Notes on episode 16

Are we a persecuted people?

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Do Christians have a persecution complex? And are we being persecuted here in Australia?

Discussion around persecution has heated up since the Christchurch shootings where 50 Muslims were killed by a gunman who entered two mosques in March.

The conversation has ramped even further since Rugby player Israel Folau posted a message on Instagram with a list of people - including homosexuals - who would be going to hell if they didn't repent, and has been found in high-level breach of the Rugby Australia code of conduct, which means he could lose his job (and $4 million contract). 

Megan and Michael delve into the complexity of persecution, looking at the news reporting of Christian and Muslim persecution in different parts of the world and asking questions about whether there's more to persecution than just other people not liking Christians.

And they set about answering the question: how can we show solidarity with the persecuted church while at the same time not playing the victim-hood game?

Mentioned in this segment:

• Open Doors World Watch List 2019: an annual report which lists the countries experiencing the worst persecution of Christians.
• Al Jezeera article looking at Muslim persecution, December 2018

You did WHAT now? Looking at what the other M has been up to 

This episode, it's Megan's turn to read a few articles written by Michael.

The first is an article from 2013 on martyrdom (a subject on which Michael did his PhD) for ABC titled Christian martyrdom and modern identity: Against Candida Moss and Salman Rushdie.

The second, written for the Sydney Morning Herald was about the missionary John Chau, titled Like Jesus, US missionary accepted death as the price of reaching out. John Allen Chau who a young missionary who was killed by the North Sentinelese people on the isolated North Sentinel Island, seven hundred miles off the coast of mainland India in 2018.

Unfortunately, martyrdom has become tied up with suicide bombings, but Michael says Christian martyrdom isn't just about dying for your group. It's also about dying for your enemies. Christians died with words like 'we honour and emperor and pray for him'.

Megan questions our use of the word 'martyr' and how we decide who is a martyr. Some in the media have called Israel Folau a martyr, for example, though not as much in Christian circles, observes Megan. 

"Sometimes we use the idea of martyrdom' in order to justify actions which may not be necessary, or may be unwise, or just wrong," says Megan. 

Michael reflects that what sometimes happened in the ancient church was people would look for ways to become a martyr. But that's not right, says Michael. Martyrdom is not something we bring down on ourselves, it's something that is in God's sovereignty. 

So what about John Allen Chau? Was he a martyr or did he just do something silly? Tune in to find out what Megan and Michael think. 

Mentioned in this segment: 

• Arthur Davis writing for Eternity: John Chau's death raises serious questions
• The Exiled Preacher blog on martyrdom and the Christian life 
• The Female Martyrs’ #MeToo Message, Lynn Cohick for Christianity Today

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories but not always the same one 

Megan and Michael watch Silence, a Scorsese film (you can stream it on SBS On Demand). Martyrdom and persecution is at the heart of this story. 

Silence is a 2016 historical period drama film directed by Martin Scorsese with a screenplay by Jay Cocks and Scorsese, based on the 1966 novel of the same name by Shūsaku Endō. Silence is the third of Scorsese's films about religious figures struggling with challenges of faith, following The Last Temptation of Christ and Kundun. The film follows the story of two Catholic missionaries (Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver) who travel to Japan in search of their missing mentor (Liam Neeson) - at a time when Catholicism was outlawed.

Michael has reviewed the film for the IFES Journal.  

Notes on episode 15

War: what is it good for? We're talking about the God of the Anzacs + Australian war songs. 

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

War is a controversial topic among Christians. We have been divided in the past over whether war is something Christians should endorse. And there have been historical instances where religion was responsible for "whipping up" war, as Michael says, recalling the Pope and the Crusades. In this contemporary world we live in we still see a connection with religion and violence. So what do we do with this aspect of our faith? 

Megan and Michael discuss whether there is ever justification for Christians to not be pacifists? Might there be a case, thinking through the 'Just War' theory, where it is absolutely necessary to go to war? 

And then there's the Anzac tradition and the dangers of romanticising war. Michael says that while he believes it is important to honour those who went to war on our behalf, we should question whether we are glorifying bloodshed rather than bemoaning it. Megan wonders whether the Anzac tradition has changed now to be more like myth or legend.

Did you know? Much of the Anzac Day commemoration events were started by a Christian minister, Canon David John Garland? Megan and Michael say they have observed that much of the Christian 'commemorative' aspects of Anzac Day services have been stripped away, to become more about Australia and our national character which has been formed through bloody sacrifice. Megan also questions the male emphasis of Anzac, saying in her research Australian nurses were originally very involved in Anzac commemorations, but seem to have been sidelined now. "It's an exclusionary myth, and not just for women," she says. 

Also mentioned in this segment:

• Stanley Haerwaus - "the pacifist you want on your side in a bar room brawl" - has put a strong case for Christians not being involved in war. 
• Augustine and 'Just war'. Read more here or here. 
• Miroslav Volf's Exclusion and Embrace
• Canon David Garland and Anzac commemoration services (see also this ABC article on Canon Garland)
• The Great War nurses story
• Anzac Day: is it just for the boys? from the University of Melbourne. 
• David Malouf's The Great World
• A Peculiar Obsession, SMH: Professor Tom Frame (ex navy, bishop to defence, now academic) says it is important we remember that ''commemoration'' is different from ''celebration'' and from ''contrition''. The centenary is a commemoration, but if we are going to err it should be towards contrition.
• SMH article on Yasmin Abdel-Magied's infamous Anzac Day tweet

Be our guest: opening up the conversation

For this episode, Megan and Michael invite Daniel Reynaud, Associate Professor of History at Avondale College of Higher Education. David wrote Anzac Spirituality: The first AIF soldiers speak. Reynaud is also working on a follow-up book, tracing individual Anzac stories and their journeys of faith through the war. 

Daniel told Megan and Michael that God is big part of the Anzac story: "an unrecognised part". Daniel says that in his research for the book he was "shocked" at how often Anzac soldiers spoke about their faith in letters and diaries. 

Mentioned in this segment: 

• Anzac Spirituality: The first AIF soldiers speak by Daniel Reynaud
• Captains of the Soul: A history of Australian army chaplains by Michael Gladwin
• Gallipoli, 2015 mini-series

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories but not always the same one 

Megan and Michael dissect four war 'conflicted' songs: 

• The Band Played Waltzing Matilda – Eric Bogle (1972) WW1
• Khe Sanh – Cold Chisel (1978) Vietnam
• I was only 19 – Redgum (1983) Vietnam
• Bodies – Wafia (2017) – modern Syria

Notes on episode 14: 

Live and in person, it's 'With All Due Respect!' At least, it was last night when Megan and Michael recorded their first live episode at the invitation of PEACEtalks, an initiative of Paddington Anglican Church in Sydney.

And... how handy that the federal election was called for the day of our live podcast, all about ... the election!

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Megan kicked off with a quote from Franklin D Roosevelt's inaugural address as President of the United States in 1933:

“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and of vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory. And I am convinced that you will again give that support to leadership in these critical days."

Last year, Michael wrote an opinion piece for Eternity asking: What are we worrying about?In it, he writes:

“What we need is to become a non-anxious presence in our chronically anxious world. Christians of all people have reason to be non-anxious. We believe that God is sovereign, the mighty Rock who is a stronghold against every threat. We believe we have even our sins dealt with, so that we need not worry about them any more. We have the resources in our faith to be an island of peace in a world that seems to be constantly in turmoil.”

The two quotes set the scene for Megan and Michael's discussion of our current political landscape. So, should we be afraid of fear in politics and is it a valid tactic?

The pair offer examples of fear-driven politics, including Donald Trump in the United States, and more recently the actions of Senator Fraser Anning in Australia in the aftermath of the Christchurch shootings which tried to instill fear of Islam (by the way, confirming Megan's statistics: Muslims make up 2.6% - 604,200 people - of Australia's population, according to the 2016 census).

Megan and Michael chat about the role of emotion more generally in politics including anger, pointing to political actions like the climate change protests by school students. "One of our deep fears is being powerless and not heard," says Michael.

Moving beyond ourselves 

Michael and Megan move on to talking about how to reach "across the aisle" and "speaking the language of the person you may be opposed to", which they feel is sadly lacking in today's political discourse.

They talk about what they believe the role of Christians should be in this political climate. "Of all people," says Megan, "Christians shouldn't be using [fear] ..."

And yet the pair can point to many occasions where fear is driving Christians and their political engagement, particularly when it comes to religious freedom.

Michael says he believes it's getting harder to be a Christian, but Megan says she just doesn't feel that in her personal experience and argues that it's the same people advocating for religious freedom who didn't want to give freedom to other people on issues like same-sex marriage.

Also mentioned in this segment:

• Michael was on ABC's The Drum this week and Megan mentions that what he said about the Get Up! attack ad (around 53:00) by conservative group Advance Australia was relevant to their discussion on tribalism and looking at 'issues' rather than 'parties' or 'groups'.
• Australian Conservatives QLD Senate candidate Lyle Shelton's campaign launch video.
• Freedom for Faith, an organisation advocating for religious freedom

Further reading on these issues:

• Michael arguing for emotions in politics on The Guardian and ABC. 
• The Conversation: Why fear and anger are rational responses to climate change

The secret life of us: in which we try to figure out what makes the other one tick 

Megan and Michael talk about the issues that move them and impact their vote, based on author Jonathan Haidt's moral foundations survey.

Megan scored high on care, equality, and autonomy; low on equity, authority, loyalty and purity.

Michael scored high on care, authority and purity; low on equity, loyalty low on autonomy.

(Pssst... their viewpoints on authority in particular cause some friction)

With their moral foundations scores as the foundation, the pair discuss what experiences have impacted their voting and what they believe to be the role of government and politicians.

Mentioned in this segment:

• The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt

Discomfort zone: ever thought someone might think differently if they went outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that. 

Michael asked Megan to read a piece he wrote in 2015 for The Guardian titled, We shouldn't trust orators, visionaries and dreamers to lead us which he wrote about Malcolm Turnbull becoming Prime Minister. Michael says he wanted Megan to read this article to draw out the differences in their perspectives on the role of politicians. Megan calls herself an idealist. Michael says he is much more pragmatic and believes the job of casting a vision for a nation is a dangerous thing to give to politicians because it can produce nationalism.

Hey guys! We're doing a live podcast in April in Sydney. You should definitely come along. More details here.

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Megan and Michael get straight into discussing child sexual abuse within the church in the wake of Cardinal George Pell's conviction and sentencing earlier this month on several counts of child sexual abuse while he was Archbishop of Melbourne in the 1990s. They consider whether there is something particular about churches that "makes us more prone to this kind of problem?" Megan suggests clericalism is one of the big problems, not just in the Catholic church but all denominations - putting pastors on a pedestal and expecting more of them. Megan and Michael talk about their own experiences as pastors, and what has started to change in the training and formation of ministers to avoid the abuse of power.

Megan also suggests that the fact that most pastors are male also contributes to the problem of abuse in the church. And while Michael says he doesn't necessarily disagree, he has had trouble getting an answer on what specifically would be solved by having more women in the priesthood, and in positions of leadership in churches. Tune in to hear the discussion.

If this episode has brought up any issues for you, Lifeline provides all Australians experiencing a personal crisis with access to online, phone and face-to-face crisis support and suicide prevention services.  You can call 13 11 14 any time – it’s open 24 hours.

Mentioned in this segment:

• Royal Commission in institutional responses to child sexual abuse
• Michael writing for Sydney Morning Herald, March 5 – 'Only hope for institutional Christianity lies in the truth'
• Michael on ABC's The Drum, talking about the conviction of Cardinal George Pell
• Josie McSkimming's letter to Sydney Morning Herald, March 6: "I appreciate Reverend Michael Jensen’s sincerity in responding to the pain of victims of abuse and the distress of church members (‘‘Only hope for institutional Christianity lies in truth’’, March 5). As one who has spent many hours with depressed and traumatised victims not only of church abuse, but also the more subtle and strangling experiences of the tendrils of church power, I suggest that the church could respond in a more constructive manner by examining how its institutional practices perpetuate the problems so decried. While you have only men in leadership positions claiming this is the created order for relationships between men and women, you have the potential for abuses of power to increase exponentially." - Josie McSkimming, Coogee(Josie McSkimming is a former Sydney evangelical and has spent many years counselling Christians about their personal experience of Christian fundamentalism and its effects on their sense of identity. She has written about this in chapters and articles)
• ABC's Q&A and Megan’s question on female leadership
• Megan writing for Eternity – 'Questioning power after Peterson, Graham and Pell'

Look - a new segment!
You did WHAT now? A peek at what the other 'M' has been up to. 

Megan wrote an opinion piece for Eternity seeking to bring together some similar issues that have arisen from the support by many Christians and Christian leaders of the Australian visits of Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson and evangelist Franklin Graham and then the response of some within the church to the conviction of Cardinal Pell. The piece attracted a lot of comments on social media, from Christians on both sides. Michael notes that in writing the piece Megan was applauded by some and accused of being a heretic by others.

Megan says she was trying to get across the problem of adulating particular people to the point where it is difficult to question them, and how important it is to not shut down questioners. Michael gives his own verdict on Megan's piece and the issues she was addressing.

This is a good example, says Megan, of the lack of respectful conversation among Christians (particularly online) when people disagree with a dominant view.

Mentioned in this segment:

• Megan writing for Eternity – 'Questioning power after Peterson, Graham and Pell'

Marg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same ones.

Michael and Megan watch Spotlight, the 2015 award-winning movie following the Boston Globe's investigation of child sexual abuse within the Catholic church in Boston. It is based on a series of stories by the "Spotlight" team that earned The Globe the 2003 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service.

Mentioned in this segment:

• Spotlight (watch trailer here), now on Netflix

We're going LIVE this April

With All Due Respect will be recording a live podcast special as part of Paddington Anglican's PEACEtalk series, on Thursday 11th April from 7pm. It will be a federal election special: a political and personal conversation minus the polarisation.

Join us at PEACEtalks with Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen as we explore some Christians perspectives as we approach the Federal election. Potential segments will include:
– For arguments sake: Should our politicians dream dreams and see visions?
– The secret life of us: How does who we are determine how we vote?
– And a live Q&A with the audience
This is surely to be a lively conversation in which we get to engage!

The event will commence at 7pm with a light dinner followed by the Live Podcast commencing promptly at 7:30pm. Supper will be served after the event. Parking can be tricky, so consider public transport or arriving early.

Notes from Episode 12: Is it a sin to talk about sin? 

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Megan and Michael dig into the giant topic that is: SIN. What is it? And what effect does it have on human beings? 

Christians have plenty of hang ups about using the word 'sin'. Megan says in some Christian tribes, it's not a popular word at all. 

Yet despite the wariness around the word, Megan says she likes it. "I find the word 'sin' is one where my evangelicalism and my feminism intersects." Tune in to find out how these "strange bedfellows" (as Michael puts it) come together. 

Meanwhile, the duo discuss the differences between individual and social/systemic sin and the traps in talking about one more than the other, looking specifically at #MeToo as an example.

When the discussion inevitably gets to 'Agency' and 'Liberty', Megan and Michael address one of their key differences. Michael is a Calvinist, Megan calls herself "a particular kind of Arminian" (don't worry - they give a quick crash course on those terms!) And so ... bring on the arguments about free will.

Mentioned in this segment:

• Not The Way It's Supposed to Be by Cornelius Platinga (Jr)
• Valerie Saiving “The Human Situation: A Feminine View.”

Q&A: You ask us questions, and we answer without the spin. 

Megan and Michael pick two questions to tackle:

• Are some sins worse than others?
• Does intent make a difference?

Marg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same ones.

Michael and Megan take a look at Kendrick Lamar's Pulitzer-winning album, Damn, though both say it's not what they would have chosen to listen to personally. 

However, Lamar is open about his own faith and the album has many references to sin, pride, lust and also humility and love. 

Looking specifically at the song Fear, Megan and Michael discuss what a 'fear of God' means and why Lamar chose to emphasise the fear over the love of God. 

Notes from Episode 11: If you're happy and you know it ... 

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Are we as Christians expected to be happy all the time and, if not, do we have a lack of faith? Michael posits that we measure things by 'happiness' but, says Megan, there are still different social narratives on how we think happiness is achieved and what kind of happiness is valuable. They discuss Paul Dolan's book Happy Ever After, which they both read for this episode.

So what exactly is happiness? And what about the recent claims that religious people are happier people? Megan and Michael take a look at happiness vs joy, dig in to what the Bible says on happiness and wonder over its temporal and eternal nature.

Mentioned in this segment:

• Happy Ever After by Paul Dolan 
• The Other Side of Happiness by Brock Bastian
• Is happiness in the Bible? Kirsten Birkett writes for Eternity News 
• Revealed: Religion does make you happier, Eternity News
• Pew Research Center study: Religion's Relationship to Happiness, Civil Engagement and Health around the World

The secret life of us: in which we try to figure out what makes the other one tick

Are we shiny happy people? Megan and Michael share their experiences of happiness and what they have meant in their lives. Megan shares candidly about her experiences of joy and depression. Is life worth living when we're not happy? How do we retain faith without happiness? And, if not to offer happiness, what is the point of faith?

Mentioned in this segment:

• Joy unerasable by Megan Powell du Toit for Fixing Her Eyes
• David Malouf: The Happy Life in Quarterly Essay

Marg and Dave: Reviews from two people obsessed by stories. But not always the same ones

SPOILERS AHEAD! Megan and Michael are talking Netflix and Russian Doll. If you haven't got to episode three of that show yet, you are now warned. 

Here's the premise: In Russian Doll, Nadia keeps dying and reliving her 36th birthday party. She's trapped in a surreal time loop - and staring down the barrel of her own mortality. 

Tune in to here what Megan and Michael think of the show that's been dubbed "the best show all year"  (and it's only February!)

Mentioned in this segment: 

• Netflix's Russian Doll is surprisingly, deeply Jewish - alma.