WonkyFolk

In this special episode of WonkyFolk, Andy Rotherham and Jed Wallace sit down with education policy legend Dr. Mike Kirst—a man whose career spans six decades of shaping education in California and beyond.

From working in the Office of Management and Budget under the Great Society programs to chairing the California State Board of Education under two governors, Kirst shares an insider’s view of how education policy gets made—and remade. He walks us through his incredible journey from Harvard to Washington to Stanford, including his role in designing Title I, navigating political upheaval, and helping reinvent California’s education finance system.

You’ll hear:

• How Mike stumbled into K–12 education policymaking—and never left
• Behind-the-scenes stories from the federal and state levels
• Reflections on the evolution of school finance reform
• Thoughts on what California’s education system got right—and still needs to fix

This is a masterclass in education policy, history, and political resilience from someone who’s truly seen it all.

Show Notes:

• Andy on the ESA division question: https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/will-the-trump-administration-go
• Overview of California's "Local Control Funding Formula" (LCFF) enacted in 2013-14: https://www.cde.ca.gov/fg/aa/lc/lcffoverview.asp
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Join Jed Wallace and Andy Rotherham for an illuminating conversation with Margaret "Macke" Raymond, one of education's most influential researchers. As Director of CREDO (Center for Research on Education Outcomes) at Stanford University and Distinguished Research Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Macke has spent two decades producing the definitive studies on charter school performance that shape policy debates nationwide.

In this episode, Macke pulls back the curtain on how rigorous education research actually works, from the methodological challenges of measuring school effectiveness to the evolution of accountability systems across states. She discusses CREDO's groundbreaking longitudinal studies, the complexities of comparing charter and traditional public schools, and why context matters more than headlines suggest.

The conversation explores the intersection of research and policy-making, touching on California's "gnarly" accountability system with its 50+ indicators, the role of charter management organizations in scaling successful models, and the ongoing debates about how we measure educational success. Macke also shares insights from Stanford's "tectonics" project and reflects on how education research has evolved over her distinguished career.

This is essential listening for education policy professionals, researchers, advocates, and anyone who wants to understand the data behind the debates. Macke's expertise and the hosts' thoughtful questions create a substantive discussion that goes far beyond talking points to examine the real challenges and opportunities in American education.

Topics Covered:

•CREDO's methodology and longitudinal research approach

•Charter school performance measurement and accountability

•The evolution of education policy research

•State accountability systems and their effectiveness

•The role of research in shaping education policy

•Challenges in scaling successful educational models

Resources and Links:

CREDO and Macke Raymond's Work:

•CREDO Charter Schools Reports: https://credo.stanford.edu/research-reports/charter-studies/

•Macke's "Fun House Mirror" Hoover Summit Introduction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeklNPBF9RE

•Previous WonkyFolk CREDO Episode with Macke: https://www.charterfolk.org/wonkyfolk-vol-5-special-credo-episode-with-macke-raymond/

Hoover Institution Resources:

•Hoover Institution K-12 Education Work: https://www.hoover.org/focus-areas/reforming-k-12-education

•Education Futures Council Report: https://www.hoover.org/press/education-futures-council-unveils-report-ours-solve-once-and-for-all

• Andy’s PMC fundraiser mentioned in the episode: https://profile.pmc.org/Andrew-Rotherham

Additional Reading:

•Tom Dee's Ed Week Article on Research and Practice: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-high-quality-research-rarely-informs-classroom-practice-why/2025/09

•Diane Ravitch's New Autobiography: https://amzn.to/3JfpRne

•Andy's "Craft versus Politics" Article: https://www.the74million.org/article/rotherham-phonics-whole-language-balanced-literacy-the-problem-isnt-that-we-dont-know-how-to-teach-reading-its-politics/

•"Buck Up!" on Eduwonk: https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/buck-up

About Our Guest: Margaret "Macke" Raymond is Director of the Center for Research on Education Outcomes (CREDO) at Stanford University and Distinguished Research Fellow at the Hoover Institution. Her research has shaped education policy debates for over two decades.

Key Discussion Points:

•How rigorous education research methodology works in practice

•The challenges of measuring school effectiveness across different contexts

•California's complex accountability system with 50+ indicators

•The role of charter management organizations in scaling success

•Why context matters more than headlines in education policy

•The intersection of academic research and policy implementation

•Stanford's "tectonics" project and innovation in education research

Is a massive federal tax credit about to transform American education? 🎓

Join Jed Wallace and Andy Rotherham as they dive deep with Shaka Mitchell from the American Federation for Children into what could be the most significant school choice development in years. This isn't your typical education policy discussion – it's about a "seismic" shift that could reshape how families access educational options nationwide.

🎙️ What You'll Discover:

• The federal tax credit program that's flying under the radar

• What this means for families nationwide

• Why this policy could be a game-changer for low-income families

• What are SGOs, and how they will play a key role

• How it can look different in different states

🔥 Why This Matters:

While everyone's focused on the usual education debates, a quiet revolution in school choice funding might be happening right under our noses. Don't miss this insider perspective on what could be the next big thing in education policy.

📺 Perfect for: Education leaders, policy wonks, parents exploring school options, and anyone curious about the future of American education.

📚 Show Notes & Resources

• Georgetown's Edunomics Lab Analysis

• AFC Federal Tax Credits Overview

Recorded live at the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools’ annual conference in Orlando, this special episode of WonkyFolk features a candid and thought-provoking interview with education leader and author Steven Wilson. Hosts Andy Rotherham and Jed Wallace sit down with Steven to unpack his latest book, The Lost Decade, and explore what it means for the future of education reform.

In their signature style—honest, informed, and unafraid of disagreement—Andy and Jed also share reflections from the conference floor and dig into the hard questions facing the charter movement today. It’s a conversation rich with insight, nuance, and vision for what comes next.

🎙️ In This Episode:

• Steven Wilson breaks down the themes of The Lost Decade

• Reflections on leadership, accountability, and innovation in schools

• Why reform feels stuck—and what might move it forward

• Conference takeaways and real-time reactions from the field

• A few lively disagreements between Jed and Andy (naturally!)

This is an essential listen for anyone working in or thinking about public education today.

Watch it on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxLaJmygER8

On this episode of WonkyFolk, Andy Rotherham and Jed Wallace dig into the surprising 4-4 split from the U.S. Supreme Court on the controversial St. Isidore religious charter school case—and what it means for the future of public education, church-state boundaries, and the charter movement.

They also explore big-picture trends reshaping education, from the erosion of academic rigor in K-12 to the political dynamics behind school funding, college value, and the explosion of school choice across the country.

Plus, a deep dive into Steven Wilson’s new book on merit, equity, and excellence in education—and why it may signal a turning point for liberal education reformers.

👉 Topics include:

• Why the SCOTUS tie wasn’t just procedural—it was a signal
• The evolving politics of school choice and teacher pay in red states
• Are we underestimating the college-for-all backlash?
• Virtual schooling and its quiet but growing policy momentum
• Why merit still matters—and what Democrats risk by abandoning it

📝 Show notes include:

• Steven Wilson’s book
• Chad Aldeman on jobs
• Eduwonk (Andy's blog) post on books
• 4-4 Drummond decision
• Mark Walsh and Andy on SCOTUS cases
• The National Alliance’s standout amicus brief
• Jed and Starlee's conversation
• Texas virtual bill

Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review—every little bit helps us keep it wonky.

In this episode of WonkyFolk, Jed Wallace and Andy Rotherham do what they do best—speculate wildly about the forces disrupting public education today and what might lie ahead.

Prompted by Marlon Marshall’s recent insight on the need to “make progress amid the disruption,” the boys take on some of the biggest questions facing schools and policymakers right now. Will the St. Isidore Supreme Court case redefine what it means to be a public school? Could religious charter schools become a new frontier—or a new fault line—in education policy? What happens when AI enters the classroom faster than we’re ready for? And will federal funding keep pace with an increasingly decentralized education landscape?

As always, Jed and Andy mix sharp analysis with insider perspective, offering a candid and occasionally irreverent take on where things stand and where they could be headed. Whether you’re a charter school leader, policy wonk, or just trying to make sense of the headlines, this episode delivers insights, laughs, and a few eyebrow-raising predictions.

Takeaways:

• In this episode, we discuss the implications of the Supreme Court case regarding AI's role in education advocacy and school funding.
• We reflect on the challenges faced by school districts amid budget constraints and the increasing complexity of educational policies.
• The conversation emphasizes the need for education advocates to navigate the evolving landscape of technology and its impact on learning outcomes.
• We explore the potential consequences of the SCOTUS ruling on charter schools and the broader educational landscape across the United States.
• As we analyze the current state of education funding, we highlight the critical importance of maintaining equitable resources for all students.
• Finally, we express cautious optimism about the role of artificial intelligence as a transformative tool in education, while acknowledging the challenges ahead.

Notes:

Article from The Dispatch on SCOTUS decision on charter schools: https://thedispatch.com/article/supreme-court-religious-charter-schools/

EduWonk on SCOTUS: https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/wednesdays-department-of-education

US News on the changing role of States in education: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/knowledge-bank/2015/12/10/new-education-law-is-bad-news-for-accountability

Andy and Jed talk about the evolving landscape of education policy and its implications for both K-12 and higher education. They discuss recent developments, the complexities introduced by political dynamics and regulatory changes, the challenges faced by educational institutions, the impact of immigration on the workforce, and the necessity for reform in response to society's shifting needs.

Jed and Andy also explore the potential consequences of the Supreme Court's decisions on charter schools and the broader implications for educational equity and access. Ultimately, they assert the importance of fostering resilient educational systems that can adapt effectively to the demands of an ever-changing world. They wrap things up by wondering what kind of swag they should give listeners. What's your vote?

Takeaways:

• The conversation between Andy Rotherham and Jed Wallace delves into the complexities surrounding higher education and charter schools.
• Both speakers express concern over the current state of higher education, emphasizing the need for a reevaluation of its economic model.
• Rotherham highlights the troubling dependency of higher education institutions on federal funding and its implications for autonomy.
• Wallace shares a poignant story about former students overcoming challenges, illustrating the transformative power of education in the face of adversity.

Notes:

• Dana Goldstein at NYT on college for all:
• BPC Commission on the American Workforce
• Emily Yoffe at the Atlantic about Race and Sexual Assault Cases on College Campuses
• Education at Economic Mobility - Ron Haskins at Brookings.
• Eduwonk on the Trump EO event
• Klein's interview with David Shor at the NYT about post-election polling.
• Abundance book by Klein and Thompson
• Why Nothing Works book by Dunkelman
• Shapiro on Bill Maher
• Gavin Newsom Takes Criticism About His New Podcast
• CharterFolk post - Graph of Century.
• Margaret Spellings Comment on Department of Education 
• Oklahoma Governor's comments on audit of Tulsa schools
• Eduwonk post - Religious charter schools
• College is worth it - especially if you are low-income (Time article)

In this live Washington, D.C. episode, Jed and Andy tackle the early policy shifts of the new Trump administration and what they mean for charter schools, education funding, and equity. They discuss the chaotic rollout of federal budget cuts, block grants, and DEI policies, analyzing how these moves may shape the future of public education—especially in blue states.

With federal oversight in flux, the conversation explores whether charter schools could be left without a seat at the table, the potential impact of religious charter schools, and the broader political realignment in education policy. The episode wraps up with a live audience Q&A, bringing in diverse perspectives on school choice, funding inequities, and the future of education reform.

Key Takeaways:

✔ The chaotic pace of policy changes under the new administration and how it differs from 2017

✔ The potential risks of block grants for charter schools, particularly in blue states

✔ The legal and political implications of religious charter schools and upcoming Supreme Court rulings

✔ Why charter school advocates must define their values and strategy amid shifting political winds

✔ The growing divide between red and blue states on public education policy

Notes & References

Eduwonk on IES cuts and the cultural moment we're in

Eduwonk on the recent "Dear Colleague" letter

SCOTUS Blog on the Oklahoma religious charter school case

In volume 22, we engage with Karim Ani, the founder of Citizen Math, who shares profound insights into the realm of mathematics education and its implications for democratic discourse. Central to our conversation is Karim's candid reflection on his personal journey, culminating in his decision to retire from American education, a choice influenced by both creative fulfillment and the formidable inertia within the educational system. Throughout our dialogue, we explore the necessity of reforming math education to better connect with real-world issues, emphasizing the importance of utilizing mathematics as a lens through which students can engage with contemporary societal challenges. Karim's narrative is not merely an account of his professional transitions; it is a clarion call for reimagining educational practices to foster a more engaged and rational citizenry. Ultimately, this episode serves as both a farewell to Karim's contributions and an invitation to rethink the foundational principles that guide our approach to teaching mathematics in today's rapidly evolving landscape.

Takeaways:

• The podcast features a profound dialogue with Karim Ani, who shares his insights on the evolution of math education and its impact on society.
• Karim Ani reflects on his personal journey through math education and the importance of using mathematics to foster rational discourse in democratic contexts.
• Listeners are encouraged to ponder the disconnect between traditional math education and its real-world applications, emphasizing the need for a transformative approach.
• The discussion highlights the necessity of supporting teachers with effective resources, thus enhancing the learning experience for students in mathematics.
• Karim Ani advocates for a shift from abstract math problems to real-world scenarios that engage students in meaningful ways through mathematics.
• The podcast concludes with a vision for a collaborative classroom environment, where students work together on community-driven projects to apply their mathematical knowledge.

Mentions in this episode:

• Karim's book, "Dear Citizen Math"
• Citizen Math
• Wheat and Chessboard problem
• Karim on Instagram

We missed our November recording due to me coming down with the crud. It left us a lot of ground to cover in a short period of time. Topics we touch upon include:

• Elections perspective six weeks later
• Linda McMahon reactions, including a somewhat surprising lack of acrimony across the political spectrum on her nomination.
• The biggest story in public education this year - Democrats embrace stasis, while Republicans embrace ESAs and vouchers. Are Dems approaching a "gray divorce" on their education priorities, while Republicans head into a "honeymoon period" on ESAs and vouchers?
• The biggest story regarding charter schools - Are charter schools in a "sweet spot" or in a "dead zone" headed into 2025?
• And our biggest reasons for optimism and concern headed into 2025.

References:

* Tim Daly's piece: https://www.educationdaly.us/p/we-are-in-the-midst-of-an-educational

* Election reax: https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/shellacked-what-are-the-education

* Fiscal situation: https://www.pgpf.org/article/7-charts-that-show-how-the-nations-fiscal-outlook-worsened-in-2024/

* Andy and Lindsay Fryer discuss Linda McMahon: https://www.linkedin.com/events/7265157124941369344/comments/

* Musical chairs: https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/charter-schools-might-not-have-a