Recorded live at the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools’ annual conference in Orlando, this special episode of WonkyFolk features a candid and thought-provoking interview with education leader and author Steven Wilson. Hosts Andy Rotherham and Jed Wallace sit down with Steven to unpack his latest book, The Lost Decade, and explore what it means for the future of education reform.

In their signature style—honest, informed, and unafraid of disagreement—Andy and Jed also share reflections from the conference floor and dig into the hard questions facing the charter movement today. It’s a conversation rich with insight, nuance, and vision for what comes next.

🎙️ In This Episode:

• Steven Wilson breaks down the themes of The Lost Decade

• Reflections on leadership, accountability, and innovation in schools

• Why reform feels stuck—and what might move it forward

• Conference takeaways and real-time reactions from the field

• A few lively disagreements between Jed and Andy (naturally!)

This is an essential listen for anyone working in or thinking about public education today.

Watch it on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxLaJmygER8

On this episode of WonkyFolk, Andy Rotherham and Jed Wallace dig into the surprising 4-4 split from the U.S. Supreme Court on the controversial St. Isidore religious charter school case—and what it means for the future of public education, church-state boundaries, and the charter movement.

They also explore big-picture trends reshaping education, from the erosion of academic rigor in K-12 to the political dynamics behind school funding, college value, and the explosion of school choice across the country.

Plus, a deep dive into Steven Wilson’s new book on merit, equity, and excellence in education—and why it may signal a turning point for liberal education reformers.

👉 Topics include:

• Why the SCOTUS tie wasn’t just procedural—it was a signal
• The evolving politics of school choice and teacher pay in red states
• Are we underestimating the college-for-all backlash?
• Virtual schooling and its quiet but growing policy momentum
• Why merit still matters—and what Democrats risk by abandoning it

📝 Show notes include:

• Steven Wilson’s book
• Chad Aldeman on jobs
• Eduwonk (Andy's blog) post on books
• 4-4 Drummond decision
• Mark Walsh and Andy on SCOTUS cases
• The National Alliance’s standout amicus brief
• Jed and Starlee's conversation
• Texas virtual bill

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In this episode of WonkyFolk, Jed Wallace and Andy Rotherham do what they do best—speculate wildly about the forces disrupting public education today and what might lie ahead.

Prompted by Marlon Marshall’s recent insight on the need to “make progress amid the disruption,” the boys take on some of the biggest questions facing schools and policymakers right now. Will the St. Isidore Supreme Court case redefine what it means to be a public school? Could religious charter schools become a new frontier—or a new fault line—in education policy? What happens when AI enters the classroom faster than we’re ready for? And will federal funding keep pace with an increasingly decentralized education landscape?

As always, Jed and Andy mix sharp analysis with insider perspective, offering a candid and occasionally irreverent take on where things stand and where they could be headed. Whether you’re a charter school leader, policy wonk, or just trying to make sense of the headlines, this episode delivers insights, laughs, and a few eyebrow-raising predictions.

Takeaways:

• In this episode, we discuss the implications of the Supreme Court case regarding AI's role in education advocacy and school funding.
• We reflect on the challenges faced by school districts amid budget constraints and the increasing complexity of educational policies.
• The conversation emphasizes the need for education advocates to navigate the evolving landscape of technology and its impact on learning outcomes.
• We explore the potential consequences of the SCOTUS ruling on charter schools and the broader educational landscape across the United States.
• As we analyze the current state of education funding, we highlight the critical importance of maintaining equitable resources for all students.
• Finally, we express cautious optimism about the role of artificial intelligence as a transformative tool in education, while acknowledging the challenges ahead.

Notes:

Article from The Dispatch on SCOTUS decision on charter schools: https://thedispatch.com/article/supreme-court-religious-charter-schools/

EduWonk on SCOTUS: https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/wednesdays-department-of-education

US News on the changing role of States in education: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/knowledge-bank/2015/12/10/new-education-law-is-bad-news-for-accountability

Andy and Jed talk about the evolving landscape of education policy and its implications for both K-12 and higher education. They discuss recent developments, the complexities introduced by political dynamics and regulatory changes, the challenges faced by educational institutions, the impact of immigration on the workforce, and the necessity for reform in response to society's shifting needs.

Jed and Andy also explore the potential consequences of the Supreme Court's decisions on charter schools and the broader implications for educational equity and access. Ultimately, they assert the importance of fostering resilient educational systems that can adapt effectively to the demands of an ever-changing world. They wrap things up by wondering what kind of swag they should give listeners. What's your vote?

Takeaways:

• The conversation between Andy Rotherham and Jed Wallace delves into the complexities surrounding higher education and charter schools.
• Both speakers express concern over the current state of higher education, emphasizing the need for a reevaluation of its economic model.
• Rotherham highlights the troubling dependency of higher education institutions on federal funding and its implications for autonomy.
• Wallace shares a poignant story about former students overcoming challenges, illustrating the transformative power of education in the face of adversity.

Notes:

• Dana Goldstein at NYT on college for all:
• BPC Commission on the American Workforce
• Emily Yoffe at the Atlantic about Race and Sexual Assault Cases on College Campuses
• Education at Economic Mobility - Ron Haskins at Brookings.
• Eduwonk on the Trump EO event
• Klein's interview with David Shor at the NYT about post-election polling.
• Abundance book by Klein and Thompson
• Why Nothing Works book by Dunkelman
• Shapiro on Bill Maher
• Gavin Newsom Takes Criticism About His New Podcast
• CharterFolk post - Graph of Century.
• Margaret Spellings Comment on Department of Education 
• Oklahoma Governor's comments on audit of Tulsa schools
• Eduwonk post - Religious charter schools
• College is worth it - especially if you are low-income (Time article)

In this live Washington, D.C. episode, Jed and Andy tackle the early policy shifts of the new Trump administration and what they mean for charter schools, education funding, and equity. They discuss the chaotic rollout of federal budget cuts, block grants, and DEI policies, analyzing how these moves may shape the future of public education—especially in blue states.

With federal oversight in flux, the conversation explores whether charter schools could be left without a seat at the table, the potential impact of religious charter schools, and the broader political realignment in education policy. The episode wraps up with a live audience Q&A, bringing in diverse perspectives on school choice, funding inequities, and the future of education reform.

Key Takeaways:

✔ The chaotic pace of policy changes under the new administration and how it differs from 2017

✔ The potential risks of block grants for charter schools, particularly in blue states

✔ The legal and political implications of religious charter schools and upcoming Supreme Court rulings

✔ Why charter school advocates must define their values and strategy amid shifting political winds

✔ The growing divide between red and blue states on public education policy

Notes & References

Eduwonk on IES cuts and the cultural moment we're in

Eduwonk on the recent "Dear Colleague" letter

SCOTUS Blog on the Oklahoma religious charter school case

In volume 22, we engage with Karim Ani, the founder of Citizen Math, who shares profound insights into the realm of mathematics education and its implications for democratic discourse. Central to our conversation is Karim's candid reflection on his personal journey, culminating in his decision to retire from American education, a choice influenced by both creative fulfillment and the formidable inertia within the educational system. Throughout our dialogue, we explore the necessity of reforming math education to better connect with real-world issues, emphasizing the importance of utilizing mathematics as a lens through which students can engage with contemporary societal challenges. Karim's narrative is not merely an account of his professional transitions; it is a clarion call for reimagining educational practices to foster a more engaged and rational citizenry. Ultimately, this episode serves as both a farewell to Karim's contributions and an invitation to rethink the foundational principles that guide our approach to teaching mathematics in today's rapidly evolving landscape.

Takeaways:

• The podcast features a profound dialogue with Karim Ani, who shares his insights on the evolution of math education and its impact on society.
• Karim Ani reflects on his personal journey through math education and the importance of using mathematics to foster rational discourse in democratic contexts.
• Listeners are encouraged to ponder the disconnect between traditional math education and its real-world applications, emphasizing the need for a transformative approach.
• The discussion highlights the necessity of supporting teachers with effective resources, thus enhancing the learning experience for students in mathematics.
• Karim Ani advocates for a shift from abstract math problems to real-world scenarios that engage students in meaningful ways through mathematics.
• The podcast concludes with a vision for a collaborative classroom environment, where students work together on community-driven projects to apply their mathematical knowledge.

Mentions in this episode:

• Karim's book, "Dear Citizen Math"
• Citizen Math
• Wheat and Chessboard problem
• Karim on Instagram

We missed our November recording due to me coming down with the crud. It left us a lot of ground to cover in a short period of time. Topics we touch upon include:

• Elections perspective six weeks later
• Linda McMahon reactions, including a somewhat surprising lack of acrimony across the political spectrum on her nomination.
• The biggest story in public education this year - Democrats embrace stasis, while Republicans embrace ESAs and vouchers. Are Dems approaching a "gray divorce" on their education priorities, while Republicans head into a "honeymoon period" on ESAs and vouchers?
• The biggest story regarding charter schools - Are charter schools in a "sweet spot" or in a "dead zone" headed into 2025?
• And our biggest reasons for optimism and concern headed into 2025.

References:

* Tim Daly's piece: https://www.educationdaly.us/p/we-are-in-the-midst-of-an-educational

* Election reax: https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/shellacked-what-are-the-education

* Fiscal situation: https://www.pgpf.org/article/7-charts-that-show-how-the-nations-fiscal-outlook-worsened-in-2024/

* Andy and Lindsay Fryer discuss Linda McMahon: https://www.linkedin.com/events/7265157124941369344/comments/

* Musical chairs: https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/charter-schools-might-not-have-a

Andy and Jed discuss what the theme music for their podcast should be before shifting to their voting experiences and frustrations with the current political landscape. The conversation delves into polarizing views on education, highlighting voter behavior differences, the impact of California politics, and significant historical events influencing perceptions. The nuances of charter school regulation, accountability, and data-driven decision-making are explored, emphasizing the difficulties of balancing regulation with performance metrics. The importance of evidence-based advocacy, critiques of past and current administrations, and the need for a balanced approach to promoting a healthy educational environment are underscored. Finally, the discussion addresses systemic issues in education, the challenge of intergenerational advocacy, and the impact of political climates on education reforms.

Show Notes:

PPI report 

https://www.progressivepolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/PPI_Searching-for-the-Tipping-Point-paper.pdf

Parker Baxter Denver study 

https://publicaffairs.ucdenver.edu/docs/librariesprovider36/default-document-library/denver_systemwide_and_intervention-effects-technical-report-september-2024.pdf?sfvrsn=f4236bb4_1

Michael Bennet and Tom Boasberg on Denver 

https://publicaffairs.ucdenver.edu/docs/librariesprovider36/default-document-library/leading-for-equity-and-student-growth-lessons-transformation-the-denver-public-schools-sept-2024.pdf?sfvrsn=237174b4_1

Eduwonk on election

https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/come-talk-ed-politics-plus-heres

Chalkbeat on CO consolidation 

https://www.chalkbeat.org/colorado/2024/10/16/denver-families-for-public-schools-move-past-education-reform/

74 on school choice referendum 

https://www.the74million.org/article/school-choice-questions-dominate-november-ballot-propositions/

Show Notes:

Tim Daly on Finland

https://www.educationdaly.us/p/the-rise-and-fall-of-finland-mania

OG Eduwonk on Finland

https://www.eduwonk.com/2004/04/finland-rising.html

Eduwonk on DiAngelis

https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/the-bloom-is-off-the-seth-rose-what

74 on DiAngelis backstory

https://www.the74million.org/article/corey-deangelis-disgraced-not-by-liberals-he-trolled-but-right-wing-parents/

Denver Study

https://publicaffairs.ucdenver.edu/docs/librariesprovider36/default-document-library/denver-study-summary-september-2024.pdf?sfvrsn=60236bb4_1

Denver Public Radio story

https://www.cpr.org/2024/09/23/denver-public-schools-controversial-reform-successful/

Denver Post story

https://www.denverpost.com/2024/09/23/denver-school-reform-academic-performance-study/

Matt Landner on ESA finance

https://www.reimaginedonline.org/2023/07/arizona-governor-touts-misleading-narrative-on-arizona-empowerment-scholarship-program/

Bellwether school finance work

https://bellwether.org/publications/splitting-the-bill/

Rotherham in New York Times on when teachers unions fought their own teachers over innovation:

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/opinion/10rotherham.html

Jed Wallace on Don Shalvey

https://www.charterfolk.org/remembering-don-shalvey-a-mid-summers-nights-dream-of-loving-what-we-do-and-who-we-do-it-with/

Eduwonk on Don Shalvey

https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/don-shalvey

Don Shalvey on doing what you love (Part 1)

https://www.charterfolk.org/charterfolk-contributor-don-shalvey-education-equals-opportunity/

Don Shalvey on doing what you love (Part 2)

https://www.charterfolk.org/charterfolk-contributor-don-shalvey-do-what-you-love-part-2/

Andy and Jed explore the intersection of education and politics in a rapidly changing landscape. They start by analyzing the Democratic Party's surprising silence on education during their convention, delving into why education has become a party splitter and how this could affect upcoming elections. The conversation then shifts to Kamala Harris' role and what her presidency might mean for education policy, especially concerning the influence of teacher unions and school choice. The hosts also tackle the Republican stance on universal vouchers, the evolving dynamics within the GOP, and the broader implications for urban education in cities like Chicago and St. Louis. This episode is packed with in-depth analysis, covering everything from the NEA's strategic influence to the potential long-term consequences of declining public school enrollment. Don't miss this insightful conversation that sheds light on the critical issues facing American education today.

SHOW NOTES:

• Andy's Eduwonk post on Biden being a centrist
• Andy's Eduwonk post on Tim Walz
• Tim Daly's piece about grading the Biden Administration on education policy
• The cringy "Mommala moment" from the Drew Barrymore interview with Kamala Harris
• The full interview between Barrymore and Harris
• Derrell Bradford and Tim DeRoche's Op-Ed in the 74 about Milliken vs Bradley