World Class Design Podcast

Katja Forbes has spent 30 years in digital and design. She built, scaled and sold her own design consultancy, led design inside corporate, and now calls herself "a recovering design leader". She is the author of Machine Customers: The Evolution Has Begun, and she flew from Australia to Paris for this conversation.

Her argument: the next customer your product serves may not be a person. It might be a shopping agent, a procurement platform, a factory ordering its own parts, or a port that runs itself. And almost nothing we design today is built for it.

In this episode:

→ What a machine customer is, explained without jargon (after a couple of attempts)

→ Walking the whole customer journey when the customer is an AI agent: awareness, consideration, transaction, onboarding, servicing, off-boarding

→ "Readable to an AI agent, otherwise it's invisible"

→ AI negotiators already closing supplier contracts, and why B2B is moving faster than B2C

→ Why the Global South may leapfrog everyone, from M-Pesa to government agents

→ User research when the user is a model: she wants to interview your AI agent

→ "Fixed customer journeys, worthless." Generative UI and going headless

→ What founders should do in the next 12 months: get hands-on

→ Why telling designers their craft is obsolete is hurtful, and the kinder way to say it

Chapters

00:00 Trailer

00:30 Australia to Paris, and a "recovering design leader"

02:30 Why design leadership is heavier now

06:30 "What happens if the thing becomes the customer?"

10:00 Designing experiences for non-humans

13:30 What is a machine customer? A port with no humans

17:00 Tyler the shopping agent, and stablecoins in plain English

22:30 The machine customer journey, end to end

33:00 The book

34:30 AI that negotiates: Walmart, Maersk, procurement

38:30 Governments, M-Pesa and leapfrog markets

43:00 User research when the user is a model

45:00 "Fixed customer journeys, worthless"

47:00 Going headless: good news for older users?

49:00 What founders should do in the next 12 months

52:30 The one thing she's certain of

55:00 "Your talk made me decide to retire"

57:00 Where to find her

Guest: Katja Forbes — The CX Evolutionist. Author, Machine Customers: The Evolution Has Begun.

thecxevolutionist.ai

LinkedIn: Katja Forbes

Substack: Field Notes from the Agentic Economy

Host: Guidione Machava, founder of World Class Design.

world-class.design

Maxime Frere is Partner and Principal Designer at Source Paris and leads a design team at Bpifrance. He has changed companies seven times, run a team of 25 as Head of Design at BPCE, worked at frog and Capgemini, and gone back to craft on purpose.In this episode he says the things most hiring managers only say in private:→ Why "taste" is the wrong word, and the 80/20 rule he uses instead→ Why he forced his whole team to go full AI, and what he now refuses to let them use it for→ Why designers who don't understand code are "trapped inside the tool"→ The one thing he looks at before hiring anyone (it's not the portfolio)→ Why "a lot of designers are lazy", and what he means by it→ The Capgemini feedback culture that made him ("it's not a line")→ The advice he'd give his younger self: take the risk, follow the manager, not the company nameWhat you'll steal: the 80/20 rule for every design decision, the "know when to stop AI" workflow, the schema habit that gets executives to say "I see what you mean", and the reason to build something this month even if the only user is your grandmother.Chapters00:00 Trailer01:10 Seven companies, one rule03:30 Kindness is not enough. Discipline.05:30 From IC to Head of Design: what actually gets you picked10:30 The schema trick: make people see, not imagine15:30 Follow the manager, not the company18:00 "We forced everyone to go full AI"19:00 Taste is the wrong word. The 80/20 rule.22:30 Prototypes between two user tests. And the slop risk.26:30 Trapped in the tool: why designers must understand code30:00 "A lot of designers are lazy"32:00 "It's not a line": the feedback that made him33:30 Don't design to make everyone happy35:00 Read the job description (Guidione's 80%)37:30 How they judge your AI use when hiring39:30 Know how to stop AI. Grab a pen.41:30 Advice to his younger self: take the risk48:30 "The chance is not for the shy"Guest: Maxime Frère — Partner & Principal Designer, Source Paris. Design lead, Bpifrance.LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maximefrere/Host: Guidione Machava, founder of World Class Design.world-class.design

AI as Designer? Regine Gilbert on Inclusive Design, Bias, and Ethical UX in a Faster Workflow

In the first episode of the World Class Design podcast, host Guidione Machava interviews NYU professor and author Regine Gilbert about how generative AI is changing design work, why speed-focused workflows can sacrifice user experience, and how AI outputs embed bias and accessibility gaps. Gilbert explains that designers shouldn’t assume AI is correct, citing ChatGPT generating a white image for Black inventor Garrett Morgan, and urges designers to do research, write clearer prompts, and check work with others. They discuss deceptive patterns, the tension between ethical design and business pressure, and practical tactics like quick pre-mortems to identify risks early. Gilbert reframes accessibility and inclusivity as reducing friction, highlights the financial and regulatory stakes, and argues designers’ lived experience, empathy, and judgment cannot be replaced by AI.

00:00 WCD Podcast with Regine
01:23 Introduction
01:57 Meet Regine Gilbert
05:29 Design Ethics & AI Decision-Making
08:38 Bias in AI & Inclusive Design
33:18 The Designer’s Role in an AI World
38:27 Hot Take & Takeaways

More from World Class Design: https://world-class.design
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zORa7kG8Ls

Marty Cagan explores a broader role for product designers in empowered teams. The session examines the difference between delivering requested features and helping discover solutions to customer and business problems.

In this session:
• Feature teams and empowered product teams
• Giving teams problems to solve
• Design’s role in product discovery
• Experimentation and cross-functional collaboration

Recorded at World Class Design Conference 2021. Roles, examples and references reflect the time of recording. This recording also includes the event closing remarks.

More from World Class Design: https://world-class.design
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUUP46wAd78

Randy J. Hunt reflects on expanding his design practice from individual touchpoints to whole businesses and complex marketplaces. Drawing on experiences including Supermarket, Etsy and Grab, the keynote explores design at different scales.

In this session:
• Designing a complete customer experience
• Working across cultures and types of customers
• Creating the conditions for a design team to succeed
• Balancing a coherent vision with participation from others

Recorded at World Class Design Conference 2021. Roles, examples and references reflect the time of recording. This recording includes the event introduction before the keynote.

More from World Class Design: https://world-class.design
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuVu3OrVZ_I

Udhaya Kumar Padmanabhan explores the changing shape of design roles and the skills designers can develop. The session moves from specialist and broader skill profiles to reflection on career direction and design’s wider impact.

In this session:
• Building depth and breadth in design skills
• Understanding overlap between design disciplines
• Reflecting on when to specialize or change direction
• Considering social impact and future opportunities

Recorded at World Class Design Conference 2021. Roles, examples and references reflect the time of recording.

More from World Class Design: https://world-class.design
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89UWDZ8FbsY

Jamie-Lee Easton challenges designers to look beyond copying established products and processes. The talk explores how to understand real user needs, use familiar patterns thoughtfully and adapt the design process to the situation.

In this session:
• Using competitors as inputs instead of ready-made solutions
• Balancing familiar patterns with distinctive value
• Ideating and validating around real problems
• Treating the design process itself as something to improve

Recorded at World Class Design Conference 2021. Roles, examples and references reflect the time of recording.

More from World Class Design: https://world-class.design
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDXNrxoCWrM

Christian San Jose reflects on a design career that moved through illustration, freelance work, agencies and business ownership. The session explores experimentation, relationships and the freedom to change direction.

In this session:
• Why design careers rarely follow a straight line
• Learning through different kinds of creative work
• Building trust through client relationships
• Changing direction and helping other designers grow

Recorded at World Class Design Conference 2021. Roles, examples and references reflect the time of recording.

More from World Class Design: https://world-class.design
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmkE20geU74

Darshan Gajara shares how Product Disrupt began as a side project and created unexpected career opportunities. The talk explores starting with a useful problem, sharing what you make and learning through the process.

In this session:
• The difference between a side project and a side business
• Finding ideas in your own and other people’s problems
• Building connections through useful work
• Capturing interest and learning from a launch

Recorded at World Class Design Conference 2021. Roles, examples and references reflect the time of recording.

More from World Class Design: https://world-class.design
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLjCHR3nZ7Q

Jack Moffett reflects on moving from an individual contributor role into UX management. The talk explores learning to support other designers, letting go of hands-on work and finding satisfaction in a team’s growth.

In this session:
• Learning with and without a design manager
• Giving colleagues room to develop their skills
• Approaching management as a design problem
• Staying connected through critique, mentoring and making

Recorded at World Class Design Conference 2021. Roles, examples and references reflect the time of recording.

More from World Class Design: https://world-class.design
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lIk38c59nk