Wrestling Payments

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EPISODE SUMMARY

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joseph Casali draws surprising parallels between professional wrestling and the evolution of payment systems. After watching WrestleMania 41, he experienced an "aha moment" recognizing that successful payment transformations follow the same narrative structure as compelling wrestling storylines.

The episode explores Donald Miller's StoryBrand framework, breaking down how every story, including payment innovations like check conversion to ACH and the digital transformation journey, features a character who faces challenges and needs guidance to achieve success. From the National Automated Clearinghouse Association (NACHA)'s early rules for check conversion to today's AI and crypto developments, each payment evolution represents its own hero's journey.

Listeners are challenged to identify their role in the payment industry narrative: Are you the hero navigating change, or the guide helping others transform? The host suggests that recognizing your place in the story can help financial professionals better navigate the continuous evolution of payment systems and build meaningful payment stories.

KEY INSIGHTS

Every Industry Evolution Follows a Classic Story Structure
The payment industry's evolution, from paper checks to digital transformation, follows the same narrative arc as classic storytelling. Just as Donald Miller's StoryBrand framework outlines, payment innovations begin with a character (organization) facing a problem (inefficient processes), meeting a guide (industry experts or associations like NACHA), receiving a plan (new technology or methodology), and taking action that leads to success or avoids failure. Viewing payment evolution through this lens gives professionals a framework to anticipate challenges and recognize their role in the larger industry story.

Identifying Whether You're a Hero or Guide Changes Your Strategy
Your role in the payment industry story—hero navigating challenges or guide helping others succeed—fundamentally changes your approach to innovation and problem-solving. Heroes face obstacles directly, implement solutions, and undergo transformation. Guides offer wisdom and experience to help others navigate challenges. Many payment professionals mistakenly position themselves as heroes when they could create more impact as guides. Being a guide—like Yoda in Star Wars—often creates more lasting impact than heroic action, especially for those with extensive industry experience who can mentor others through digital transformation or regulatory changes.

Success Stories in Payments Are Never-Ending Narratives
Payment innovation represents a continuous narrative where each success leads to the next challenge, unlike traditional stories with definitive endings. Innovations like check digitization and ACH systems solved immediate problems but created new storylines and challenges. Completing one transformation doesn't provide a permanent "happy ending" but instead opens the next chapter. This perpetual evolution requires viewing projects as episodes in an ongoing industry saga. Embracing this never-ending narrative perspective helps maintain adaptability, avoid complacency after successes, and stay prepared for constant changes driven by technology, regulations, or market demands.

Recognizing When You're the Guide, Not the Hero [00:15:40]
"If you look around the room and you don't see the person who's doing this, you are that person. Maybe you're a guide. Maybe you're a guide in the story. And that's not a negative. You're Yoda. How can you get better than Yoda? You are Paul Heyman in wrestling, you are the guide. You're the advisor, the wise man."

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EPISODE SUMMARY

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali sits down with Travis Dulaney, CEO and Co-founder of BalancedTrust, to unpack the ongoing friction between fintech startups and their bank partners. From missing compliance standards to misunderstandings around regulatory risk, Travis explains why so many good ideas hit a wall.

Travis shares lessons from his time launching and selling PayFi, where inconsistent feedback from sponsor banks highlighted a significant problem: no standard process for compliance approval. That frustration led to the birth of BalancedTrust, a platform helping fintechs and banks align risk tolerance, automate onboarding, and scale safely.

They also discuss why early-stage fintechs often fail to prioritize compliance—and how Travis's team offers a free tool to change that. This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to grow responsibly in today's complex financial environment.

GUEST-AT-A-GLANCE
Travis Dulaney
CEO and Co-founder
BalancedTrust
LinkedIn 
Noteworthy: 25+ years in fintech, building scalable, compliant solutions for banks and startups

KEY INSIGHTS

Lack of Standardization Is Slowing Fintech Growth

Compliance challenges aren't just technical—they're human. One of the biggest bottlenecks for fintechs trying to scale is the lack of standardization in how sponsor banks evaluate risk and onboard new partners. As Travis explains, different banks—and even individual BSA officers—interpret and apply compliance rules inconsistently. This leads to wildly different outcomes for the same applicant, creating confusion and wasted effort. The core issue isn't always regulation but the subjective way it's enforced. Fintechs often get rejected not because they're too risky but because they don't speak the bank's language or follow an expected format. This inconsistency drags innovation, limits access, and leaves founders guessing how to move forward. A more structured, transparent process would benefit banks and startups by aligning expectations and removing friction.

Compliance Isn't Optional—It's a Growth Enabler

In the startup world, speed often wins. However, regarding financial services, speed without compliance leads to dead ends. Travis argues that compliance isn't a box to check—infrastructure helps fintechs grow. Too many early-stage companies treat risk management like a burden rather than a foundation. That mindset leads to breakdowns when securing a sponsor bank or raising capital. BalancedTrust was built to address this gap by giving fintechs a more precise roadmap: show where the risk lies, understand the rules that apply and know what actions to take. Travis points out that banks won't tell you how to fix your gaps—they're not liable for your mistakes. That's why having a structured, proactive compliance plan helps startups build trust, gain partnerships, and move faster with fewer surprises.

Stablecoins - The Missing Link in Cross-Border Payments?
While stablecoins are often discussed through the lens of crypto speculation, Travis highlights a more practical role: solving the long-standing pain point of the international money movement. Stablecoins, backed by fiat and supported by wallets on both ends, offer a fast, transparent, and secure alternative. They can bridge traditional banking and decentralized finance, creating a unified standard for moving value across jurisdictions. But Travis emphasizes that the real value isn't just technical—it's compliance-driven. If regulators and banks can confidently trace the source and destination of funds, then stablecoins will become more than a crypto tool—they will become infrastructure. That opens up new possibilities for inclusion, efficiency, and global reach in payments.

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EPISODE SUMMARY
This episode of Wrestling Payments tackles the critical topic of exposure limits in modern payments. Host Joe Casali and guest Sean Carter, President & CEO of Neach Payments Group, dissect an article by Jordan Bennett of Nacha, which focuses on payment modernization and digital transformation. Sean highlights a common misconception: viewing exposure limits solely through the lens of credit risk. He argues for a broader perspective, emphasizing operational risks like account takeovers and business email compromise.

Sean explains how current exposure limit practices often focus on the unlikely event of a business's complete failure, rather than the more frequent occurrences of chargebacks and return items. He advocates for a more holistic review process, considering IT security practices and overall risk management. Sean also discusses the challenges financial institutions face with third-party senders and the importance of consistent due diligence.

Finally, Sean challenges the common practice of assigning uniform exposure limits. He urges listeners to consider the unique risks of each originator and leverage available tools for efficient limit monitoring and enforcement. This episode provides valuable insights for financial institutions looking to strengthen their payment processes and mitigate risk.

Sean Carter
President & CEO
Neach Payments Group and NEACH
Payments risk expert advocating for holistic exposure limit reviews.
LinkedIn 

KEY INSIGHTS
Rethinking Exposure Limits 

Exposure limits are often mistakenly viewed solely through the lens of credit risk. This narrow focus overlooks the significant operational risks prevalent in today's digital payment landscape, such as account takeovers and business email compromise. A more comprehensive approach considers a company's IT security practices, overall risk management, and the potential for fraud, ensuring a more robust and effective risk mitigation strategy. Shifting the focus from the unlikely scenario of complete business failure to the more frequent occurrences of chargebacks and returns offers a more practical and relevant assessment of risk.

Third-Party Sender Oversight 

Financial institutions must extend their rigorous risk management practices to third-party senders. While institutions may have robust internal controls, neglecting the oversight of third-party partners creates a vulnerability. Ensuring these partners adhere to the same level of due diligence and risk assessment is crucial for maintaining a strong security posture and protecting the institution from potential fraud and operational failures. This includes implementing agreements and monitoring processes to guarantee consistent security practices across the payment ecosystem.

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EPISODE SUMMARY
It happens to the best of us. This session was recorded last year, but got lost in the shuffle. It may be a crime as the interview was with law enforcement and a member financial institution (at the time) on the topic of fraud... the show notes below.

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali engages in an insightful discussion with Matthew Hogan, CAMS, a detective with the Connecticut State Police and a Task Force Officer with the USSS Financial Crimes Task Force, and Ryan McKinnon, Senior Deposit Operations Fraud Analyst at South Shore Bank. The conversation dives into the complexities of fraud detection and prevention in the financial sector, highlighting the collaborative efforts required between financial institutions and law enforcement.

Matthew Hogan shares his experiences investigating white-collar and cryptocurrency crimes, emphasizing the critical need for timely reporting and effective communication between banks and law enforcement to combat fraud. He underscores the challenges of prosecuting financial crimes, particularly those involving international actors and the increasing use of cryptocurrencies for money laundering.

Ryan McKinnon discusses his role at South Shore Bank and the importance of education and community outreach in fraud prevention. He highlights the need for financial institutions to stay vigilant and adaptive to evolving fraud tactics. 

GUEST INFORMATION

Matthew Hogan
Detective
Connecticut State Police
(23) Matthew Hogan, MS | LinkedIn

Ryan McKinnon
Assistant Manager Fraud & Recovery
Charlesbridge
(23) Ryan McKinnon, CAMS | LinkedIn
(formerly Sr Deposit Operations Fraud Analyst with South Shore Bank)

KEY INSIGHTS
Financial Institutions and Law Enforcement Must Collaborate

Effective collaboration between financial institutions and law enforcement is crucial in combating financial fraud. Banks often detect scams but need proper communication to address the full impact. Law enforcement relies on detailed reports from banks to investigate and prosecute fraud cases. However, there's often a communication gap, with banks unaware of the outcomes and law enforcement not providing feedback. Bridging this gap can enhance fraud detection and prosecution, ensuring both sides work together more efficiently. Regular interactions and feedback loops between these entities can significantly improve the response to financial fraud.

Cryptocurrency is a Major Vehicle for Modern Financial Fraud
Cryptocurrency is a significant tool for laundering money and committing fraud due to its anonymity and ease of transfer. Financial institutions and law enforcement face scams involving cryptocurrency, from thefts to Ponzi schemes. Understanding cryptocurrency transactions and fraud tactics is crucial for developing countermeasures. As fraudsters innovate, staying informed and vigilant is vital. Preventative measures and investigative techniques must evolve to keep pace with the changing landscape of financial fraud involving digital currencies.

Fraud Tactics Evolve but Core Elements Remain Constant

Fraud methods evolve, but the core elements remain the same: urgency, a problem or prize, and a specific payment method. This consistency helps financial institutions develop effective detection and prevention strategies. 

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EPISODE SUMMARY 

Sarah Stapp, Chief Commercial Officer at Aeropay, joins Joseph Casali to discuss the evolving payments landscape, focusing on Pay by Bank. Sarah shares her unique journey into fintech, from Craigslist job ads to leading global expansion at Braintree, and dives into ACH rails and real-time payments. 

Why Pay by Bank Matters: It offers fast, secure payment options directly from bank accounts, bypassing card networks. Sarah highlights how RTP and FedNow are shaping user expectations around speed and control across industries like gaming and insurance. 

Key Topics: 

• Evolution of payment orchestration
• Understanding “guaranteed ACH”
• Signals of Pay by Bank's growth in the U.S.
• Consumer-driven adoption over regulation

GUEST-AT-A-GLANCE

Sarah Stapp Chief Commercial Officer, Aeropay LinkedIn

Noteworthy: Spent 12 years at Braintree, leading global expansion.


KEY INSIGHTS

Pay by Bank Is Here: Sarah explains how direct bank-to-bank payments using ACH rails and mobile authentication are gaining traction, especially in gaming. She emphasizes the importance of education for both merchants and consumers.

Instant Payouts: RTP and FedNow are changing consumer expectations for receiving money. Sarah discusses the impact on gaming, insurance claims, contractor payments, and rent reimbursements.

Guaranteed ACH: Sarah introduces “guaranteed ACH” to mitigate risks associated with traditional ACH, offering merchants fewer chargebacks and better cash flow.

Payment Orchestration: Sarah unpacks payment orchestration, highlighting its role in optimizing transactions, centralizing customer data, reducing costs, and enhancing user experience.
 
 

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Episode Summary

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joseph Casali breaks down three timely developments in the payments world. First, he tackles the slow adoption of faster payments among smaller financial institutions. Despite strong growth in RTP and FedNow, integration costs and a lack of clear pricing models continue to hold many back.

Next, Joe explores Square’s move to offer consumer loans through Cash App. With FDIC approval in hand, Square—under its parent company Block—is entering the credit space with small, short-term loans. Joe weighs the pros and cons of fintechs stepping into traditional banking roles, especially as regulators start paying closer attention.

Finally, the discussion shifts to stablecoins. The OCC has relaxed its stance, making it easier for banks to engage in crypto-related activities. Joe walks through proposed legislation and asks the big question: who should regulate stablecoins, and what does that mean for banks and consumers?

KEY INSIGHTS

Small Banks Lag in Real-Time Payment Adoption

Despite the growing infrastructure behind faster payments like RTP and FedNow, smaller financial institutions continue to trail their larger peers. Joe points out that big banks are six times more likely to offer real-time payments. The reasons? Integration complexity, unclear pricing strategies, and rising deposit costs. About 30% of hesitant institutions lack a pricing model, and 35% cite tech integration as a barrier. While over 70% of regional and national banks allow consumers to send real-time payments, only 44% of credit unions do the same. The opportunity is there—but hesitation remains.

Square’s Cash App Loans Signal Fintech’s Banking Ambitions

Square, now operating under parent company Block, has secured FDIC approval to offer small-dollar loans through Cash App. Joe unpacks how these short-term, low-cost loans are aimed at underbanked consumers facing steep fees from payday lenders or overdrafts. The average loan is under $100, repaid within a month, and has a default rate below 3%. With nearly $9 billion originated already, this product has clear demand. Joe raises important questions around regulation, noting that while fintechs offer convenience, they aren’t held to the same standards as banks—yet.

OCC Opens the Door to Crypto Activity in Banking

The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC) has issued new guidance making it easier for banks to engage in crypto-related services like stablecoin issuance and blockchain verification. This removes the previous requirement for individual “non-objection” letters, streamlining the process. Joe explains how this policy shift reflects growing acceptance of crypto in financial systems and reduces compliance hurdles for banks. But he also warns: without consistent regulation across fintechs and banks, consumer trust and financial stability could be tested.
 
 Stablecoin Legislation Could Reshape the Payments Landscape

Congress is actively working on several stablecoin bills, including the Stable Act and Genius Act. Joe reviews draft proposals that would require stablecoin issuers to hold liquid reserves—like short-term Treasuries—and submit to state or Federal Reserve oversight. One provision caps stablecoin issuance at $10 billion per entity, which Joe questions as being too low to make real market impact. With PayPal and other major players eyeing this space, the legislation could set the tone for how digital currencies coexist with traditional money movement.

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In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joseph Casali unpacks Project 2025 and its potential impact on banking regulations, community banks, and credit unions. The discussion focuses on regulatory shifts, compliance adjustments, and how financial institutions should prepare for possible changes in payment systems, digital assets, and risk management. While details remain uncertain, the conversation highlights key areas that could see significant updates, including FFIEC guidance and financial technology regulations.

Joe explores how Project 2025’s goal of reducing federal regulations may conflict with new policies surrounding cybersecurity, anti-money laundering (AML), and Know Your Customer (KYC) rules. He also examines the evolving role of digital currencies and stablecoins in financial transactions. Financial institutions must assess their technology infrastructure and compliance strategies to stay ahead of potential regulatory updates.

With sweeping changes on the horizon, banks and credit unions need to stay informed and proactive. Joe emphasizes the importance of monitoring regulatory developments, investing in updated compliance frameworks, and adapting risk management practices to ensure stability in a shifting landscape.

KEY INSIGHTS

Project 2025 Could Reshape Financial Regulations

Joe Casali outlines how Project 2025 could introduce sweeping regulatory changes affecting banks and credit unions. While the specifics remain unclear, the initiative seeks to streamline compliance, reduce bureaucratic oversight, and potentially open opportunities for financial institutions. However, there are concerns about how these changes might align—or conflict—with existing frameworks like FFIEC guidance, AML, and KYC regulations. Casali notes that while easing compliance burdens may benefit smaller institutions, it could also introduce new challenges, particularly for risk management and cybersecurity. Financial institutions should prepare by evaluating their compliance structures and staying informed on legislative developments to navigate these evolving regulations effectively.

The Evolving Role of Payment System Regulations

Joe discusses potential updates to payment system regulations, including the need for clearer guidance on digital assets and emerging payment technologies. He highlights how institutions may need to reassess their risk management strategies and technology investments in response to changes in regulatory expectations. Faster payments and real-time settlement solutions, including stablecoins and digital transactions, could become more mainstream, but this also introduces new risks related to fraud prevention and security. Joe advises banks and credit unions to evaluate their current payment infrastructures, ensuring they have the necessary safeguards in place to comply with potential updates. Institutions should also anticipate revisions to FFIEC guidance on retail payments, which could affect operational policies and compliance standards.

Community Banks and Credit Unions Face Unique Challenges

Community banks and credit unions may experience both relief and added pressure from Project 2025. On one hand, reduced compliance requirements could free up resources for innovation and customer service. On the other, adapting to new regulatory frameworks—particularly those governing digital assets, cybersecurity, and fintech partnerships—may require substantial investments in technology and compliance. Joe warns that smaller institutions should not assume deregulation means less oversight; instead, they must proactively assess their risk exposure and prepare for potential shifts in compliance expectations. He encourages these organizations to start planning now, reviewing existing policies, assessing technology capabilities, and considering new partnerships that could&

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Check fraud is skyrocketing, and financial institutions are scrambling to keep up. In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joseph Casali sits down with Sean Carter, President & CEO of NPG, to unpack why fraudsters are winning—and how banks and businesses can fight back. Carter explains the alarming rise in fraudulent checks, the organized crime networks behind them, and why simply “not writing checks” isn’t a realistic solution for many businesses.

The conversation dives into Positive Pay, a tool designed to prevent check fraud before it happens. Carter shares firsthand experience with fraud prevention, including how NPG caught a fraudulent check that would have cost years’ worth of fees. The discussion also highlights the surprising gaps in adoption—many banks assume businesses won’t pay for fraud prevention, while businesses often don’t even know the service exists.

Casali and Carter wrap up with key takeaways from a recent fraud prevention survey, revealing why businesses hesitate to adopt protective measures and what banks can do to improve adoption. Tune in for expert insights on keeping your business’s payments secure.

GUEST-AT-A-GLANCE
Sean Carter, President & CEO
Neach Payments Group
Leads fraud prevention, audits, and risk assessment for banks and fintechs.
LinkedIn  

KEY INSIGHTS
Check Fraud is Organized Crime, Not Random Theft

Check fraud isn’t just small-time criminals altering checks—it’s a sophisticated, organized effort. Criminals steal checks through targeted mailbox break-ins, sometimes even at gunpoint, and use advanced methods to wash, alter, and deposit fraudulent checks. Many businesses still assume check fraud is a rare occurrence or that it won’t happen to them, but fraudsters are systematically exploiting weak security measures in the payment system. Sean Carter emphasizes that stolen funds aren’t just lost money—they fuel activities like drug trafficking and other criminal enterprises. This highlights the urgent need for businesses and financial institutions to take proactive security measures rather than waiting until fraud happens to take action.

Positive Pay Works—But Many Businesses Don’t Use It

Positive Pay is a proven fraud prevention tool that helps businesses verify checks before they clear. According to Carter, companies using Positive Pay see a significant reduction in fraudulent transactions. Despite this, many businesses either aren’t aware of it or believe they won’t be targeted by fraud. The episode reveals a disconnect: financial institutions assume businesses won’t pay for fraud prevention, while businesses often don’t even know the service exists. The data supports Positive Pay’s effectiveness, yet many companies only adopt it after experiencing fraud firsthand. Carter argues that banks should be more proactive in educating clients and even consider requiring a waiver if businesses opt out, ensuring they understand the risks.

The Hidden Costs of Check Fraud Go Beyond Stolen Money

When fraud occurs, it’s not just about losing money—it creates disputes, damages bank-client relationships, and leads to costly legal battles. Carter explains that fraud victims often face unexpected costs beyond the stolen amount, including time spent investigating fraud, reputational damage, and potential double payments if a vendor’s check is altered. Financial institutions that fail to offer strong fraud prevention tools also risk losing business, as companies may seek banks with better security measures. The episode underscores the need for a mindset shift: fraud prevention should be seen as an investment, not an expense.

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In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali uses a unique metaphor—the spinning plates act from the Ed Sullivan Show—to explore the complexities of compliance, risk management, and operational efficiency in financial institutions. He shares insights into how organizations must continuously monitor and adjust their processes to stay in alignment with evolving regulations, emphasizing that compliance is not optional but a foundational part of doing business.

Joe examines high-profile cases, including Robinhood’s $30 million fine and Cash App’s $175 million penalty, to illustrate the consequences of neglecting a "culture of compliance." He highlights the need for clear risk assessments, robust fraud prevention measures, and proactive training to avoid regulatory pitfalls. These examples serve as cautionary tales for financial institutions striving to maintain trust and stability.

The episode underscores the importance of ongoing education and vigilance in financial operations. Joe’s engaging discussion invites listeners to rethink compliance as an opportunity to excel rather than a burden to endure.

To hear this episode and many more like it, listen here or subscribe to Wrestling Payments on Apple Podcasts,  Spotify, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts.

For show notes, transcripts, and other resources visit www.wrestlingpayments.com.

Host: Joe Casali, EVP, NEACH

#wrestlingpayments #wrestlingpaymentspodcast #paymentspodcast

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Episode Summary
Join us for this final episode of season 2. In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joseph Casali is joined by Sean Carter, President & CEO of NEACH, and Mary Mumper-Morrison, NEACH’s Education Director, for an insightful discussion on the evolving landscape of payments. The trio dives into the significant changes from 2024, including NEACH rule updates and the growing adoption of AI in financial systems. They reflect on the year’s challenges and how fraud has escalated, demanding innovative responses from the industry.

Mary shares her expertise on regulatory shifts, such as the CFPB’s personal financial data rights rule, while Sean highlights the importance of collaboration between operational and compliance teams to tackle fraud effectively. Both guests emphasize the need for clearer fraud definitions and better public education to combat scams and deception.

Looking ahead to 2025, the conversation explores emerging opportunities with FinTech partnerships, embedded finance, and AI-driven innovation. The episode wraps with hopes for reducing fraud and improving industry resilience.

 Guests-at-a-Glance
Sean Carter
President & CEO
NEACH
A payments industry veteran passionate about fraud prevention, NEACH rule evolution, and fostering collaboration within financial institutions.
LinkedIn  

Mary Mumper-Morrison
Education Director
NEACH
An experienced payments expert with 25+ years in banking & fintech, specializing in operations, audit, and regulatory guidance for payments systems.
LinkedIn  

Key Insights
AI's Role in Payments Innovation and Security

 Mary Mumper-Morrison explores the transformative potential of AI in the payments industry, from improving security to streamlining operations. She highlights how AI tools are already being leveraged to enhance fraud detection and support regulatory compliance. However, she also warns of the challenges in change management, urging financial institutions to involve employees in conversations about AI’s integration to avoid resistance and fear of job displacement.
 

The Growing Importance of Embedded Finance

Mary Mumper-Morrison discusses the rapid expansion of embedded finance and its implications for financial institutions. As embedded finance continues to grow, it will likely redefine how consumers interact with financial services and how institutions design their offerings to remain competitive.

Fraud Education Requires a Public-Private Approach

Sean Carter highlights the need for a collaborative strategy to combat fraud effectively. He explains that financial institutions alone cannot shoulder the responsibility of educating the public about scams and fraudulent activity. Drawing parallels to successful public service campaigns like Smokey Bear, Carter argues for impactful, guilt-inducing messaging that ties consumer behavior to the negative outcomes of fraud. By involving regulators, social media platforms, and telecom providers, the industry can drive meaningful change in fraud prevention and public awareness.