Wrestling Payments

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Episode Summary Mid-market banks and credit unions are trapped between agile FinTechs and mega banks, held back by internal silos. On Wrestling Payments, host Elyssa Morgan explores how these institutions can break barriers and leverage their unique strengths.

Randy San Nicolas (Braid CEO) and Daryn Barney (Role FinTech Partners founder) reveal how to overcome self-imposed limitations. "To break through silos, you must step outside to see the world differently," Randy explains. They discuss Stripe's stablecoin move and its impact on traditional banking.

The conversation shows how mid-market size becomes an advantage, not a limitation. Guests share practical steps: inventory existing capabilities, foster innovation leadership, and recognize you already have the charter and foundation to compete.

Host-at-a-Glance

Elyssa Morgan - VP of Membership at NEACH  

Guides payment professionals through modernization challenges 

Find her on LinkedIn

Guests-at-a-Glance 

💡 Randy San Nicolas - Co-founder/CEO, Braid

💡 25 years in payments, empowering smaller institutions to compete 

💡 Find him on LinkedIn

💡 Daryn Barney - Founder, Role FinTech Partners
💡 25 years in payments/banking, builds FinTech strategies for mid-market banks 💡 Find him on LinkedIn

Key Insights

Self-Imposed Silos Are the Real Enemy Banks create barriers by over-depending on core vendors. Most obstacles are mental, not technical. Banks have the infrastructure—they need perspective shifts and smart risk-taking leadership.

Community Banks Hold Undervalued Advantages Mid-market institutions possess what FinTechs can't copy: banking charters, community trust, regulatory frameworks. Even Stripe needs this infrastructure. Decades of relationships position banks as essential infrastructure providers.

Innovation Is Closer Than Perceived Banks underestimate existing capabilities. ACH operators have technical knowledge matching startups—the difference is presentation. Small partnership steps, not complete overhauls, create momentum for bigger transformation.

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Episode Summary

Financial institutions struggle to identify and monetize revenue opportunities through FinTech partnerships while justifying upfront costs to leadership. Wrestling Payments host Elyssa Morgan speaks with Scott Goldthwaite from FinTech Futures, who breaks down where banks can find immediate revenue streams and build compelling business cases.

Scott explains that banks must develop strategies to enhance transaction fee income through sponsorship, acquiring, issuing, and faster payments like RTP. The key is understanding complete money movement needs—both inbound and outbound—rather than siloing into separate strategies.

Addressing cost concerns, Scott emphasizes plotting break-even points and understanding transaction thresholds. He explores emerging opportunities in cross-border payments, AI-powered solutions, and stable coins, providing actionable frameworks for banks ready to move beyond cost concerns and generate real revenue from FinTech relationships.

Guest-at-a-Glance

💡 Name: Scott Goldthwaite
💡 Role: Founder & Consultant
💡 Company: FinTech Futures
💡 Expertise: FinTech Operator and Payments Strategist with 24+ years experience, NEACH board member
💡 Connect: LinkedIn

Host-at-a-Glance

💡 Name: Elyssa Morgan
💡 Role: Vice President of Membership
💡 Company: NEACH
💡 Expertise: Payments strategist and growth leader driving member growth and advising financial institutions
💡 Connect: LinkedIn

Key Insights

Calculate Before You Partner
Banks must plot break-even points before entering FinTech partnerships. Understanding transaction economics upfront—implementation costs, staffing, compliance expenses—transforms uncertain investments into calculated revenue opportunities with measurable success metrics.

Think Holistic Money Movement
Successful partnerships require comprehensive infrastructure supporting funds flowing in multiple directions. Earned wage access needs both funding and disbursement; B2B solutions require receiving, holding, and sending capabilities. Banks understanding complete cycles monetize multiple touchpoints.

Prepare for AI-Driven Automation
Agent AI, stable coins, and automated payments will reshape partnership models within 18 months. AI agents will negotiate autonomously while stable coins execute complex payment logic automatically. Banks exploring these technologies now through manageable steps avoid future disruption.

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Episode Summary

Many financial institutions feel stuck, believing technology myths hold them back from innovation. In this Wrestling Payments episode, host Elyssa Morgan talks with Brian Anderson, VP of Banking Transformation at Finzly, about busting these myths and competing in today's payments ecosystem without waiting for core systems to catch up.

Brian explains how institutions can shift from core-reliant to core-complimentary thinking, transforming payments from cost centers into strategic revenue drivers. He details how API-driven platforms create flexibility and new customer opportunities, helping smaller institutions build stickier relationships and compete with larger banks and fintechs.

The conversation emphasizes that technology decisions are business strategy, not IT projects, requiring C-suite buy-in to reframe investments as essential for competitive advantage.

Guest-at-a-Glance

Name: Brian Anderson
Role: Vice President, Banking Transformation
Company: Finzly
Expertise: Helps institutions innovate through best-of-breed money movement strategies
Connect: LinkedIn

Key Insights

Core-Complimentary Revolution
Stop waiting for core providers. Build ecosystems using APIs to integrate specialized solutions, enabling rapid fintech capability deployment without system overhauls.

Payments as Profit Centers
Transform payments into revenue drivers. One bank generated 40% of income through payment services, creating sticky relationships and non-interest income streams.

Middleware Magic
Gain ultimate control with middleware solutions that prevent vendor lock-in while providing deeper money movement insights and switching flexibility.

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Episode Summary

Financial institutions face a critical challenge: modernizing payment operations through FinTech partnerships without compromising compliance. On Wrestling Payments, host Elyssa Morgan explores practical strategies for balancing innovation with regulatory requirements.

Mark Forbis (former Jack Henry CTO) and Stephen Coburn (Avalo Labs CEO) reveal what works when banks and FinTechs collaborate. Mark explains why most institutions approach partnerships wrong, while Stephen discusses cultural mismatches that doom relationships. Both have witnessed spectacular failures and quiet successes.

The conversation reveals hidden complexities of third-party risk management and why traditional due diligence overlooks critical warning signs. From fourth-party vendor oversight to recent industry shake-ups, this episode provides frameworks payment leaders won't find in regulatory guidance.

Guests: 

• Mark Forbis - Former CTO, Avalo Labs | 32 years at Jack Henry, multiple bank boards LinkedIn 
• Stephen Coburn - CEO, Avalo Labs | Built compliance-focused treasury platform LinkedIn 
• Mary Mumper-Morrison - Director of Education, NEACH | FinTech veteran specializing in risk management LinkedIn 

Key Insights:

1. Cultural alignment determines success more than technical capabilities
2. Fourth-party risks create hidden vulnerabilities requiring expanded due diligence
3. Early compliance integration prevents costly partnership failures
4. Contingency planning for FinTech failure requires clear data ownership protocols

Smart institutions prepare for scenarios most never consider, including partner failures and customer relationship transfers.

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EPISODE SUMMARY

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, Host Elyssa Morgan talks with Dr. Angela Murphy from Pidgin about the shift from competition to collaboration between financial institutions and fintechs. They explore why partnership is a critical strategy for shaping the future of financial services and meeting rapidly evolving customer expectations.

Angela addresses the common fear among institutions of losing control. She argues that fintechs like PayPal and Venmo have already changed the landscape. Instead of being a threat, the right technology partners can help institutions provide better digital experiences and augment the customer relationships they have already built.

This conversation provides a playbook for moving forward. Angela shares how institutions can analyze their payment strategies, find opportunities in the B2B space, and leverage technology to reduce risk. For any institution looking to innovate, this episode offers a clear path to seizing opportunity while maintaining control.

GUEST-AT-A-GLANCE

💡 Name: Angela Murphy
💡 What she does: Vice President of Marketing and Solutions
💡 Company: Pidgin
💡 Noteworthy: Known as the "Payments Elsa," with deep expertise in payments innovation and AI.

💡 Where to find her: LinkedIn

KEY INSIGHTS

Financial Institutions Must Embrace Fintech Partnership to Survive

Wrestling Payments host Elyssa Morgan interviews Dr. Angela Murphy (Pidgin's VP Marketing) about why banks and credit unions must shift from competing with fintechs to collaborating with them.

Key Takeaways:

Partnership Over Competition Customer expectations for seamless digital experiences now extend to financial services. Institutions can no longer provide everything in-house. Strategic fintech partnerships enable rapid deployment of innovative solutions while maintaining competitive edge.

Control Through Collaboration Many institutions fear losing customer relationships to fintechs, but services like PayPal and Venmo already changed the landscape. Smart partnerships strengthen relationships by adding necessary digital tools under trusted institutional brands, keeping institutions as central financial advisors.

B2B Payment Opportunity While consumer payments get attention, B2B payments remain inefficient and outdated. This creates massive revenue opportunities for institutions willing to partner with specialized fintechs to solve commercial client pain points.

Practical Innovation Steps

• Analyze existing payment flows and costs
• Target top 20% of check users driving 80% of volume for digital transition
• Leverage AI partnerships to automate processes and combat fraud

Angela, known as "Payments Elsa," provides a clear roadmap for institutions to innovate while maintaining control, emphasizing that collaboration isn't surrender—it's strategic survival in rapidly evolving financial services.

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Episode Summary In this episode of Wrestling Payments, Joe Casali from NEACH sits down with Raphael Reznek and Ingrid Hebert from Mascoma Bank and Mascoma Technologies to explore an incredible success story: how a community bank built its own fintech platform from scratch. After years of vendor disappointments and legacy system limitations, Mascoma took the bold step of building in-house—and the results are remarkable. Raphael shares how their custom platform now runs multiple cores in parallel while providing real-time access to customer data, transforming operations from manual letter-sorting to automated efficiency. Ingrid reveals the cultural transformation that made it possible, including "Pivot Tuesdays" and Agile methodologies that kept stakeholders engaged. This episode proves that community banks don't have to wait for big vendors to innovate—they can lead the charge themselves.

Guests-at-a-Glance

Raphael Reznek CTO, Mascoma Bank and President, Mascoma Technologies A visionary leader who spearheaded the revolutionary in-house platform build, merging compliance with cutting-edge infrastructure to give community banks unprecedented control. LinkedIn

Ingrid Hebert Director of Service Delivery and Implementation, Mascoma Technologies The operational mastermind behind Mascoma's cultural transformation, driving internal platform builds that perfectly align technology with banking operations. LinkedIn

Key Insights

Building Your Own Path When Vendors Fall Short Mascoma's journey proves that sometimes the best solution is the one you create yourself. After years of vendor promises and legacy limitations, they built a data hub that integrates old and new systems without the risks of total replacement. Their platform now processes transactions that once required manual sorting (imagine a semi-truck full of letters!) and provides real-time visibility into data quality issues. The breakthrough insight: you don't have to choose between legacy stability and modern capabilities—you can have both.

"Pivot Tuesdays" and the Power of Agile Banking Mascoma transformed not just their technology but their entire culture. By embedding compliance, risk, and operations teams into every development stage, they created powerful feedback loops that led to faster pivots and stronger buy-in. When malformed data started filling their new exception queue, operations wasn't frustrated—they were thrilled to finally see problems in real-time. The lesson: successful banking innovation comes from building systems with the people who use them, not just for them.

A Scalable Model for Community Banking's Future What makes Mascoma's approach truly exciting is its scalability. Their platform already supports other institutions, especially during mergers, allowing banks to consolidate systems without starting over. Instead of "staples and gum" integration, banks can plug into a shared data hub that runs multiple cores and unifies digital tools. This isn't just internal efficiency—it's reshaping what's possible for community banking.

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EPISODE SUMMARY

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali from NEACH speaks with Glenn Fromer of Treasury Software about solving the critical "last mile" disconnect between small businesses and the ACH network.

Glenn shares how his journey from accountant at fast food chains to payment software developer revealed significant inefficiencies in payment operations. His company evolved from addressing bank reconciliation issues to creating ACH file solutions that enable small businesses to participate in the national payment system alongside larger organizations.

The conversation explores why businesses often attempt to build internal payment solutions despite the challenges of ongoing maintenance. Glenn explains that while anyone can write code, the real value comes from managing constant regulatory changes and technical updates – comparing DIY payment solutions to growing your own cotton to make a t-shirt instead of buying one for $10. This practical insight highlights why specialized payment software often provides better long-term value for financial institutions and their business clients.

GUEST-AT-A-GLANCE 

Name: Glenn Fromer

What he does: Founder & Executive 

Company:Treasury Software 

Noteworthy: CPA-turned-fintech innovator who streamlined ACH payment processing for businesses.

Where to find him:LinkedIn

KEY INSIGHTS

The Last Mile Matters Most in Payment Networks
The final connection point between payment systems and end users represents the most critical and challenging component of the entire network. While large institutions focus on core infrastructure, this "last mile" determines whether small businesses can effectively participate in modern payment systems. Like electrical grids that require transformers and distribution lines to reach individual homes. Without these connection tools, the payment ecosystem would exclude smaller players. For financial institutions, recognizing this connectivity challenge helps better support clients transitioning from legacy payment methods to electronic systems, ultimately democratizing access to payment networks.

Software Integration Creates Both Opportunities and Challenges
Modern payment operations increasingly depend on seamless software integration between accounting platforms and banking systems. The dramatic difference between QuickBooks Desktop and QuickBooks Online exemplifies how rapidly changing software landscapes can disrupt payment workflows. As software platforms evolve, businesses face migration challenges that ripple through their entire payment infrastructure. Financial institutions serving business clients need to understand these integration dependencies when advising on payment operations. 

Customer-Centric Product Development Drives Payment Innovation
Successful payment solutions evolve by addressing actual user pain points rather than chasing competitor features. Treasury Software's journey from bank reconciliation tools to ACH file creation demonstrates how listening to customer requests creates more relevant products than following industry trends. This customer-focused approach explains why payment solution providers often develop in unexpected sequences, addressing specific problems as clients encounter them rather than following predetermined roadmaps. For financial institutions, this insight emphasizes the importance of gathering direct client feedback about payment challenges rather than assuming standard solution paths. By identifying the specific payment operation obstacles their clients face, banks can better match those clients with appropriate technology solutions.

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EPISODE SUMMARY

In this third installment of the NACHA "Smackdown" Rules Violations in the Ring series, Wrestling Payments host Joseph Casali dives into NACHA's enforcement process, examining real rules violation cases and their consequences. The episode unpacks three enforcement cases involving micro-entries to invalid accounts, entries to invalid accounts, and failure to perform annual ACH compliance audits.

Joe walks listeners through each case, detailing how financial institutions responded to violations and the resulting penalties. The podcast highlights how even seemingly minor infractions can lead to significant fines. "These are the easy things," Joe explains when discussing a $5,000 fine for missing an annual audit requirement.

The episode serves as a practical guide to understanding NACHA's enforcement process, demonstrating how financial institutions can learn from others' mistakes to improve their own compliance practices and avoid costly penalties.

KEY INSIGHTS

Compliance Mistakes Cost More Than Just Money
NACHA enforcement isn't just about penalties—it reveals operational vulnerabilities that impact multiple stakeholders. When financial institutions fail to maintain proper controls, they face monetary fines, reputational damage, increased scrutiny, and potential customer impacts. The actual cost extends beyond the immediate financial penalty, including operational adjustments, staff time, and preventative system investments. Organizations should view compliance as a strategic business function rather than a checkbox exercise, especially when scaling operations.

Fraud Prevention Requires Evolution, Not Just Detection
Effective fraud management demands a dynamic approach that evolves alongside emerging threats. When patterns of suspicious activity emerge, institutions must rapidly implement countermeasures and be willing to adjust their business models when necessary. The most successful organizations build layered defense systems that can adapt to changing fraud tactics. This requires cross-departmental collaboration, regular testing, and the courage to disable vulnerable services when controls prove insufficient—even if it temporarily impacts revenue streams.

Regulatory Compliance Cannot Rely on Good Intentions
The financial services industry operates within a complex web of overlapping regulatory frameworks that require deliberate, proactive management. Intending to comply or being unaware of requirements does not protect from enforcement actions. Every organization must establish systematic approaches to tracking, implementing, and verifying compliance activities on an ongoing basis. Leadership must prioritize creating a culture where regulatory obligations receive continual attention rather than periodic focus during examinations or audits.

Siloed Compliance Creates Dangerous Blind Spots
Financial institutions face requirements from multiple regulatory bodies with overlapping but distinct compliance demands. Treating these requirements as separate, unrelated obligations creates dangerous gaps where violations can occur despite passing specific examinations. Effective compliance programs require an integrated view of all regulatory obligations to identify interconnections and prevent requirements from falling through organizational cracks. Organizations must comprehensively map regulatory responsibilities with clear ownership and accountability across all departments that touch payment operations.

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EPISODE SUMMARY:

QUESTIONS ALWAYS WELCOME. [email protected]

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joseph Casali continues his three-part NACHA SmackDown series, taking listeners inside the high-stakes world of ACH rules violations. Through compelling real-world cases, Joseph reveals the consequences when financial institutions fail to follow proper authorization procedures.

The episode examines Steward Bank's repeated failures to provide valid authorization proof, resulting in escalating fines from warnings to $7,500. Joseph also explores O'Leary Bank's improper SEC code use, demonstrating critical compliance errors that payment professionals must avoid.

"These are really places to learn how the rules apply," Joseph explains. "Look what happened here. This went wrong, and they got fined for it. It's a really good way to learn how the rules work." 

While emphasizing that NACHA's enforcement process doesn't recover funds for affected parties, Joseph provides valuable insights for operations managers and directors responsible for ACH compliance.

KEY INSIGHTS:
The Enforcement Process Protects the Network, Not Individual Cases
NACHA's enforcement process exists to uphold system integrity, not recover funds for affected parties. The process identifies rule-breakers and imposes fines to discourage future violations, but consumers must look elsewhere for recovery. Understanding this distinction is crucial for banking professionals managing payment operations—rules enforcement serves as a deterrent while arbitration offers a path for financial recovery. This separation of powers helps maintain ACH Network quality while giving institutions multiple ways to address unauthorized transactions.

Authorization Type Must Match the SEC Code
SEC codes must align with the authorization type obtained from customers—a critical compliance point for operations managers. Converting a check into a WEB debit constitutes an automatic rules violation because the authorization types differ fundamentally. Payment professionals must understand that each SEC code requires its distinct authorization format. This knowledge helps institutions avoid costly violations while ensuring proper payment processing across different channels.

Progressive Enforcement Drives Compliance
NACHA's enforcement panel uses progressively increasing penalties to encourage compliance, starting with warnings before moving to monetary fines. For payment professionals, this highlights the importance of addressing issues immediately rather than ignoring them.

The panel's willingness to impose recurring monthly fines for persistent violators underscores NACHA's commitment to maintaining network integrity.

Proper Documentation Prevents Costly Violations
Under NACHA rules, the obligation to provide valid proof of authorization within 10 banking days is non-negotiable. Financial institutions must maintain organized, accessible records and ensure staff understand how to respond properly to authorization requests. 

Both cases highlight the importance of having knowledgeable staff (ideally AAP-certified) who can identify proper authorization formats and requirements. Operations managers should implement procedures ensuring authorization documentation matches receiver information exactly, as mismatches invalidate the proof and trigger violations.

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In this episode of Wrestling Payments, Joseph Casali launches a three-part "SmackDown Rules Violations in the Ring" series, examining ACH rule violations through wrestling metaphors. He analyzes two critical NACHA case studies that payment professionals should understand to avoid costly compliance mistakes.

The first case involves Glenn Transportation's unauthorized $50,000 reversal attempt against KJN Storage, earning them a warning letter as a first-time offender. The second, more severe case examines a complex arrangement between Macklan Development, Workforce Assist, and Processing for You Inc., where improper payroll reversals led to a substantial $100,000 fine.

Joseph details how the third-party payment processor initiated unauthorized reversals when their customer failed to fund payroll credits, causing consumer accounts to be debited multiple times. This "nested third-party" arrangement lacked proper oversight and controls, resulting in widespread harm to employees, businesses, and financial institutions.

"Just like in wrestling, when you try to reverse the outcome after the match is over, you'll find yourself facing the regulatory referee," warns Casali. "In the NACHA ring, proper reversals require proper cause, not just a desire to take back what you've already given."

Prevention Beats Correction in Payment Operations
The root of most improper reversals isn't misunderstanding rules—it's inadequate front-end controls. Rather than focusing on when reversals are permitted, payment professionals should strengthen transaction validation before payments enter the network. Organizations eliminate the scenarios that tempt improper reversals by implementing proper authorization checks, sufficient funding verification, and receiver confirmation processes up front.

Prevention not only avoids NACHA enforcement but creates more efficient operations overall. Smart payment managers know that building guardrails before transactions occur costs far less than attempting corrections after funds have moved.

Clear Accountability Is Essential in Third-Party Relationships
When payment services involve multiple providers, responsibility becomes dangerously diluted. The "nested third-party" arrangement in the payroll case demonstrates how quickly problems cascade when accountability chains break down. Financial institutions must establish explicit contractual requirements defining precisely who bears responsibility for compliance at each processing stage.

Regular audits, performance monitoring, and transparent communication channels between all parties are essential. The most successful payment operations leaders create relationship maps that establish clear lines of authority and ensure visibility across the entire transaction lifecycle.

Consumer Impact Elevates Regulatory Response
What regulators might treat as minor procedural issues in B2B contexts become major enforcement priorities when consumers feel the impact. Payment operations teams need separate, enhanced control frameworks for transactions touching consumer accounts. Payroll processing, direct debits, and other consumer activities demand heightened verification steps, stronger reconciliation processes, and faster exception handling. 

The immediate financial hardship consumers experience from improper transactions—and the resulting reputational damage—justifies investing in these stronger safeguards. Smart operations leaders recognize this regulatory reality and allocate resources accordingly.