Y Pumed Llawr - The Fifth Floor

A concluding reflection on the themes discussed in the series recorded at a live event in Cardiff. Chaired by Lee Waters the panel was Hannah White Director of the Institute for Government, Prof James Mitchell of Edinburgh University, former First Minister Mark Drakeford and former Education Minister Kirsty Williams. The event was hosted by Cardiff University’s Welsh Governance Centre and recorded at the offices of Capital Law on 13th October 2025 in front of a live audience.

You can watch it here:

https://youtu.be/NXPEhLC4mNQ?si=TVVjqoYVg8lvZHDY

BONUS EPISODE

The themes of the podcast were picked up by members of the Senedd’s Public Accounts Committee and put to the Permanent Secretary of the Welsh Government to respond.

Here’s the unfiltered exchange from 19th February 2025

They say that “Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made”.

This messy process is one of headaches Welsh Government Ministers face on the Fifth Floor of Ty Hywel . And this episode exposes it to public scrutiny for the first time.

Lee Waters speaks with fellow former Ministers, advisers, and civil servants to survey the main frustrations faced by those working inside the Welsh Government in getting things done.

The documentary podcast series has previously considered the range of Ministerial responsibilities, the pace of the civil service in delivering change, the relationship with local government, the weakness of scrutiny, and the management of political pressures.

The full set of interviews drawn on by this series have been published by Cardiff University :

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/2888677/Cathays-Conversations-Lee-Waters-2025-01-14.pdf

Welsh Government Ministers only have an office on The Fifth Floor with the support of their backbench colleagues on the second floor, and with enough votes in the finely balanced Senedd.

This episode looks at the art and science of politics that Ministers need to confront to get things done.

Former Government Minister Lee Waters talks to former colleagues about the pressures faced inside Government.

The full set of interviews drawn on by this series have been published by Cardiff University :

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/2888677/Cathays-Conversations-Lee-Waters-2025-01-14.pdf

The Welsh Government sets the policies and spends the money, and the Senedd passes the laws. But it's local government that delivers much of the public services.

In this episode of the Fifth Floor former Minister Lee Waters discusses with Welsh Government insiders how the relationship with Councils works - and sometimes doesn't work.

The full set of interviews drawn on by this series have been published by Cardiff University :

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/2888677/Cathays-Conversations-Lee-Waters-2025-01-14.pdf

The Welsh Government sets the policies and spends the money, and the Senedd passes the laws. But it’s local government that delivers much of the public services.

In this episode of the Fifth Floor former Minister Lee Waters discusses with Welsh Government insiders how the relationship with Councils works - and sometimes doesn’t work.

The full set of interviews drawn on by this series have been published by Cardiff University :

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/2888677/Cathays-Conversations-Lee-Waters-2025-01-14.pdf

How are Ministers kept on their toes? What are the main sources of scrutiny of Government and how effective are they? This episode considers the theory and practice of the pressure points on decision makers.

Former Minister Lee Waters takes into the fifth floor of the building where the decisions happen.

The full set of interviews have been published by Cardiff University :

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/2888677/Cathays-Conversations-Lee-Waters-2025-01-14.pdf

This is the second part of a look at the Welsh Government civil service, and why Ministers are frustrated at the pace of change.

Speaking to former civil servants, Special Advisers and Ministers the episodes explores the culture and structures that have developed which make it harder to get things done.

The episode is produced, written and presented by former Welsh Government Minister Lee Waters.

This episode is dedicated to the memory of Nick Powell.

The full set of interviews have been published by Cardiff University :

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/2888677/Cathays-Conversations-Lee-Waters-2025-01-14.pdf

This episode explores the role of the civil service, and why Ministers are often frustrated by the pace of change.

This is a two-part episode focusing on the impact of the constraints in the size of the Welsh Government, and the culture that has developed around it

Former Minister Lee Waters takes is onto the fifth floor of the building where the decisions happen.

The full set of interviews have been published by Cardiff University :

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/2888677/Cathays-Conversations-Lee-Waters-2025-01-14.pdf

Episode 1 - The pressure

Former Welsh Government Minister Lee Waters talks to Ministers and their advisers about the breadth of responsibilities and the volume of workloads faced by members of the Welsh Government on the Fifth Floor.

Welsh Government insiders reveal the inner-workings of the dynamics of political life in Wales.

The full set of interviews have been published by Cardiff University :

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/2888677/Cathays-Conversations-Lee-Waters-2025-01-14.pdf