It is not often that we get to say that there is a new translation of a classical text that has taken the world by storm. But that was exactly what happened when Professor Stephanie McCarter released her 2022 translation of Ovid’s Metamorphoses. We were honoured that Professor McCarter agreed to talk to us about the mysterious Ovid and her process of translation.

Stephanie McCarter is currently a Professor of Classics at the University of the South in Sewanee, Tennessee. She published a monograph entitled Horace between Freedom and Slavery: The First Book of Epistles in 2015 and a translation of Horace’s Epodes, Odes and Carmen Saeculare in 2020.

We would like to warn our listeners that this episode will touch on instances of violence and sexual assault. This is not one to listen to with the kids in the car.

Special Episode – Ovid's Metamorphoses with Professor Stephanie McCarter

Who was Ovid?

Ovid is one of our favourite Latin poets over at the Partial Historians. This is partially due to his work, which can be touching but also highly comedic. However, it is also because Ovid himself is hard to figure out.

He lived and worked during the reign of Augustus but claimed to have been exiled in approximately 8 CE. Academics are still trying to figure out what Ovid did that was so terrible… or whether he was making it up entirely!

Whatever he was up to, Ovid’s back catalogue is pretty impressive. He composed the Amores, the Heroides, the Fasti, the Ars amatoria, and his masterpiece, the Metamorphoses.

Translating Ovid for the 21st Century

Translation is an immensely difficult and often underappreciated task. We don’t mean getting out your dictionary and figuring out a passage here and there. We delve into the technique of translating an entire work, trying to make it accessible and enjoyable for a new generation, whilst staying true to the voice of the original author. Whew! What an undertaking.

Professor McCarter’s translation of the Metamorphoses is the first English translation of the work by a woman in many decades and it seems to have struck a nerve. There are many episodes of sexual violence in this work that have been softened or glossed over in previous translations. McCarter’s work aims to be more accurate and direct in the language, not shying away from the troubling aspects of these myths. This has allowed themes to emerge more clearly from text.

It was a delight to talk to someone as passionate and dedicated to their work as Professor McCarter. Her work highlights the way that translations often reflect the values of their creator and their context, hence the need for fresh interpretations.

Things to look out for:

• The powerful art of Elizabeth Columba
• An amazing New Yorker article on McCarter’s work
• The uterus and double helix cleverly woven into the mind-blowing cover art for McCarter’s book by Aiko Tezuka
• Professor McCarter makes reference to concordances as part of her process. These are essentially word indexes – very handy tools for translators!
• Exciting news about McCarter’s next projects!

Sound Credits

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Automated Transcript

Generated by Otter AI.

Dr Rad  00:15

Welcome to the partial historians,

Dr G  00:18

we explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad  00:23

Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. And

Dr G  00:33

I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad  00:44

Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of this city. Hello, and welcome to a special episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad,

Dr G  01:06

and I'm Dr. G.

Dr Rad  01:09

Now, Dr. G, you know that I break out in a cold sweat at the thought of translating anything. It's

Dr G  01:16

true. I think I do as well at this point, I feel Yeah. So I'm

Dr Rad  01:20

super excited to have an expert in translation on our show. Today, we are going to be chatting to Stephanie McCarter, who is currently a Professor of Classics at the University of the South in Sewanee, Tennessee. She published a monograph entitled horrors between freedom and slavery, the first book of epistles in 2015, and a translation of Horace's oppose, owed and calm and secular era in 2020. However, she has recently been spending more time with a man named of it, her 2022 translation of his Metamorphoses has received much acclaim, and this is what we will be focusing on today. However, before we start, we would like to warn our listeners that this episode will touch on instances of violence and sexual assault. Welcome, Stephanie

Stephanie McCarter  02:25

Thank you so much. This is this is a great treat. I'm super excited to be on this particular podcast because I spend so much time in Australia, my husband's and Aussie. So I sometimes try to my kids are all these. So this is exciting. It

Dr Rad  02:42

is very exciting for us to have you on the show and to talk about this particular translation. But before we get into the actual translating stuff, just so I can, you know, ease myself into it, not have too many nightmares. Let's start with a brief biography of of it, who is this guy? Well,

Stephanie McCarter  03:01

he is who he we think if he was who he would like us to believe he is. So most of what we know from him comes from his own poetry, we know very little about him outside of that. And you know, part of constructing his biography means picking and choosing the bits you want to believe, right. But we in terms of who he is, we know he was the last of the major Agustin poets, who were living in writing during the rise and reign of Augustus, along with Virgil and then Horace I tend to think of Virgil, Horace and Ovid is the big three. We need to be really careful with what he tells us because most of it comes from one poem, trusty 410, which he writes when he's in exile, and he's clearly trying to frame himself in a particular kind of quasi heroic light. So it's hard to know what's poetic fiction and what is fact. He was born in Salmo Italy in 43 BCE, but a year after the assassination of Julius Caesar almost to the day, March 20. Caesar, of course, famously killed on the Ides of March. And so he was about 12 or so when I guess this came to power. So when he really came of age during guesses rise, and then he died about a year after Augustus. So his life really straddles this period of Rome's own metamorphosis, right from a Republic into an empire. And so I think that might be one reason he's interested in the idea of transformation because one of the things he brings out in the metamorphosis is how states transform. So I think some of this is tied into his own experience in Rome. Um, his family was equestrian so that he was not from a super elite family, but certainly wealthy enough to send him to be educated in Rome along with his brother, who died when he was young. He clearly He received a stellar oratorical education which he put to great use in the poem. But he ultimately decided not to embark on a career as a politician or an order, and he decided that poetry was where he wanted to proceed instead, we know that he married according to what he told us three times, the last marriage lasted for many years, he had a daughter and he was a grandpa to which we don't really think of all of it as you know, a grandpa. But he tells us that he was. And perhaps the biggest event in his life was his exile. This is the one that we are spilling a lot of ink over. He was exiled probably the same year that Metamorphoses was published the year eight, he tells us that he was exiled because of a carmen et error, or a poem and a mistake. Most people would agree the poem was the Ars amatoria. Cause you could very easily if you wanted to argue that that's a manual for picking up married women and adultery was a crime under Augustus. But he wasn't exiled until eight years later. So the mistake is probably what really got him exiled. Nobody knows what that was. We know he saw something. I don't speculate because I think that's playing of its game. He wants us to speculate and he's never gonna tell us and He wants us to keep talking about this for 2000 years. And he wrote many poems in exile wanting to be recalled to Rome wasn't and so died, still in exile in Thomas on the Black Sea. So that's a very quick overview of his of his life.

Dr Rad  06:40

I would just like to highlight for our listeners that it is Augustus Yes. Augustus who is responsible for keeping this poetic genius and

Stephanie McCarter  06:52

some people think it has It has been speculated that maybe he's making the entire thing up. Oh, scandal. I actually I'm quite drawn to I don't think that's necessarily true, but I like the idea that maybe he's just, yeah, this is a persona. I don't we don't really think he was a pickup artist, do we? Even though he purports to be in the mores and ours on materia so it's the kind of funny thought that maybe we've been speculating for about something that he just just saw.

Dr Rad  07:21

The biggest prank? Yeah, I do. I do enjoy visiting him as like a creepy grandpa type of guy, the one that tells all the inappropriate jokes, and it's like, hugely embarrassing.

Dr G  07:33

Absolutely, that would be for sure. Don't invite him to family lunch, just in case. So the metamorphoses is a hugely influential text through time, and partly because it's so mythologically based tales of the gods tales of mortals. These are the stories that really draw people in to the ancient world in many cases for the first time. But it's more than that. And I'm interested in your view about what is the metamorphoses about and you kind of touched on that idea of the transformation of Rome itself? And I'm wondering if there's other ways into the text that are like that, or build from there as well?

Stephanie McCarter  08:12

This is such a difficult question to even start to ponder, because I begin to think, what is it not about? Right? It's, you know, it is about everything from the creation of the universe to have its own day, this is what he tells us the various transformations that have happened throughout all time, right? And so transformation brings us does is it simple, you know, it's sort of most straightforward theme. He tells us in the opening line, he's going to talk about shapes changed, right? New Task formats, that's metamorphosis. But it's about so much more like what changes forms, right? That's the big question. It's time. So it's about time and its movement, power changes, forms, frequently in this poem, and also, so much of it just focused around the body, right? This the probably the most important word, and the opening poem is corpora, which is bodies, its shapes transformed into new bodies. And so you think that's weird, because it should be body's changed into new shapes? And so, you know, he invites you to ponder, you know, what is a body? What does that mean? So this is why you can kind of think of the universe is a body, the state is a body. And then, of course, we as humans having bodies that are really subject to change and transformation. So it's about you know, what does it mean to have a human body? What does it mean to exist in a world that it changes the language of the body? And, and then it also invites us to think about identity. So it's about that what is the relationship between a body and the identity that inhabits it? Right when the shape is changed into a new body? What happens to the being that inhabited the body to begin with? Is it lost? Okay? So yeah, it's about so many different things. It's about gender, right? There's and and the way that that might relate to a body, you have so many characters in this epic who transform in terms of gender, and you have a big focus on female characters as well. And so how does an epic itself transform? When you shift the focus on to women? Right, this is I think, something that Ovid is really interested in, you know, so many of the epics that we think of the need the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Odyssey opens with the word man, right? It is a male focused genre for sure. And so just by changing that, that focus, he transforms the genre in so many interesting ways. So I could go on forever about what the metamorphosis piece has been about. But I think maybe what it's fundamentally about is how the force of change and transformation then connects us in so many ways, right? How all these things are connected, and you can't stop change. And that's actually a pretty good thing.

Dr G  11:05

It does mean that there's a sense that the text resonates continuously through time, because change is the one thing that we always are feeling and understanding. And even though we might resist change, there's a real compulsion to try and understand it better. And I think of it has done something supremely clever by tapping into this as that thematic focus.

Stephanie McCarter  11:27

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, it means he can he can be changed to write his texts can be changed and transformed through translation through art through adaptation in ways that will make him stay relevant always. It

Dr Rad  11:44

is kind of ironic, isn't it? That change is a constant in all of our lives. How important would you say this text was in his own time? And then in subsequent centuries?

Stephanie McCarter  11:58

Oh, goodness, I mean, from the very beginning, it was, it was important. I mean, he you can't have any of the epics that follow in the wake of it without this text. You know, one of my favourite epics is Statius is the by it, I absolutely love it. But it wouldn't exist without all of it, and Virgil. And so he's sort of folding both of those epics into the by it, you see its influence in art pretty immediately because of I mean, the frescoes you see in Pompeii that are clearly based on all of its metamorphosis, not just in Pompeii, you see this across the ancient world. And then of course, in our own time, and we, you know, in the English speaking world, he has resonated across the centuries. I mean, you have Shakespeare's most famous play arguably is Romeo and Juliet, you wouldn't have that without of its pyramids and Thursby you wouldn't have huge chunks of Midsummer Night's Dream without pyramids and Thursby as well. You know, I'm thinking of in terms of art, famously, art of it has inspired more art than any text apart from the Bible, and continues to one of my favourite painters working right now is a woman named Elizabeth colomba, who very often works with Ovidian material. She has a fabulous painting of Daphne that's responding powerfully to Bernini's Daphne and Apollo sculpture. So I mean, in some ways, because of it is so malleable, we can use him as something of a mirror in which we can see our own literary and artistic tastes change and react to what went before. So we've been using him for so long, I'm thinking also of, you know, his influence on you know, operat his influence on the stage in general, his influence on so many rewritings of myth that are coming out right now, I mean, you wouldn't have Madeline Miller's Circe, without all of its Circe, for example, you know, Mary Zimmerman's play the metamorphoses I'm reading right now another new play at Polaroid stories by Naomi Iizuka. I'm sure, I may not be pronouncing her name correctly, but you know, there's so many wonderful theatrical productions of all of it. Yeah, he's everywhere. He's absolutely everywhere.

Dr Rad  14:24

It sounds good that we're talking about it, then if it's such a crucial text from the ancient world, I think this is

Dr G  14:29

the sort of thing as well, well, this is like a small anecdote, but I was out yesterday with some friends from a broader circle of people. And they were kind of like, well, what are you doing tomorrow? And I was like, oh, you know, I'm going to interview this wonderful academic about Ovid's Metamorphoses. And they're like, what's that? And I was like, You will be surprised about how much you have already engaged with his text through one of the variations and adaptations that have happened over time. And I was like, I went straight to Shakespeare and I was like, Look, and then we move out from I'm there. And I want to, first of all just stand in all of you for a moment, because translation is a gargantuan task. And I think the further we go through time, the more history we have of translation and engagement with ancient texts as well. So every scholar of each new generation who engages in translation kind of has this whole history of what has come before, in order to encounter all of that before they get to their own translation, and how they're going to position things. And not even all academics get the chance to really engage in in depth translation work. So I'm wondering if you can walk us a little bit through your process as a translator? Oh,

Stephanie McCarter  15:41

goodness, this is, it's a little tricky to explain. I love my new shop. I love working in minutiae. I've always liked that. And I always was drawn to poetry. And so even from the time I was in high school, I loved poetry as a sort of secret poetry nerd. And I had to leave a lot of the English poetry I really liked behind when I chose classics over English literature. And so I guess about in the summer of 2016, I just sat down and started translating, but I had no process, I had no idea what I was doing. Really, what it took for me was to figure out that I wanted to write formal poetry in translation. And that became a real guide and friend, to me, because like a lot of classes, I was not terribly good at literary translation, we tend to be trained to do a hyper literal kind of translation, that doesn't sound so great to somebody who's reading the text for its literary quality. So it just, it took me a long time to work out any kind of process at all. With this particular translation I translated it's in iambic pentameter, I made it my full time job, I actually lived in Australia for most of the time, I was translating the initial draft of this, we were in Brisbane for the year. And, you know, woke up every day nine to five translating into iambic pentameter, so much that I started thinking. And then I, it took me several years to get the draft complete. A lot of that was due to COVID. And having two small kids. And then I one thing I always do, once I have a translation, as I always teach it, because I want to see how it goes with my students and how they react to it, where things are not working for them. And so I taught it. In a class, I was teaching on women's adaptation of Ovid, and they gave me great feedback. And then I spent months revising, and revising and revising and revising. But yeah, it's very mature. It's a meticulous process. So I'm sitting down with, I don't feel like translation for me is like a process of being inspired or anything like that. I'm using commentaries, I was having a conversation with somebody the other day about how I love concordances. I don't know if you know what concordance is, are, but they're the most boring possible, but so good. It's wonderful. Like, it's like every time, you know, an ancient author. So I was talking about my Horace concordance, and how much I loved it. But you know, you can Look up every time he uses the word good. Yeah. It'll tell you everywhere. So when it's really old fashioned kind of tools, like commentaries, dictionaries, concordances, spreading them all around and turning yourself into a bit of a, you know, maniac for buy, but I

Dr G  18:41

kind of love this. There's like the word nerd comes out, like, yeah, Look at this, and then it appeared here, and then it didn't appear for another 50 years, like what's going on? It must be special.

Stephanie McCarter  18:53

What? That's true. And so then how do you translate that word? That is a weird word that Ovid only uses? Once right? Then you have to reach for a weird word in English that that works there. So you know, just getting yourself into that space where you're kind of inhabiting lots of different roles at once it strangely so you're a scholar, right? You're using really scholarly tools where you've, you know, you're using your tools for literary criticism, so you're having to interpret the poem, always. And then you're also having to be an artist where you are trying to transform that into workable English literature. So it's a strange thing to try to do. But it's, I mean, it's I it's, it's a pleasurable thing. So I won't stop translating anytime they kind

Dr G  19:43

of love this as well, the idea of translation as another metamorphosis as well. I'm just going to put that out there. So are there particular translations that you that you that resonated for you when you were approaching your own translation?

Stephanie McCarter  19:56

Well, I think that I knew several of the translations pretty well. I mean, I've taught avid so many times over the years. And yeah, so I wouldn't say that I was committed to any translation I knew them. And because I had taught out of them so much I knew where the limitations of each one was, in the classes that I was teaching him in. It was mainly, I teach a course on women and gender in the ancient world. And then I teach another course on sexuality in the ancient world, so two separate courses. And then I also teach of it in like a Latin seminar where we are dissecting the Latin together very slowly. And so in the Women and Gender and Sexuality courses, I wasn't able to find translations that dealt with the aspects of sexual violence and what was going on in terms of gender in the body. I needed translations that brought those issues to the fore, and I just wasn't finding them. And then on the other hand, in my Latin seminars, I just wasn't finding translations that did poetically, what I needed them to do in order to teach the students who were dissecting the Latin and finding ways for them to see that reflected in the translations we were also looking at. So that meant that my goals became twofold. I really wanted to use a poetic translation. So this is, you know, formal poetry. It's iambic pentameter. I wanted it to be really success, like accessible rather, I, I tend to like poetry that is really accessible. And so my favourite poet is Philip Larkin. And he's, so straightaway, he's so accessible. And so much of the power of his poetry comes from its seeming simplicity of language. But then when you dig in, and you see how he's handling, metre, and alliteration, and all of these wonderful things, you can see it's artistry. And so it is, I think it's, it works, because it is so seemingly simple, but really artistically refined. And so I wanted to try to make something highly readable. But when you dug in, you can actually see the cool poetic stuff that Ovid is also doing. So you know, it's not hard to read, I don't think my translation I wanted to make something that you could read rather quickly, but then you can go in and it's okay, there's all this alliteration. Here's this enjambment. She's working with this Juras in the meeting, the line kind of like all of it is doing here's the reversal of this metrical foot that mimics what Ovid is doing. So that was one goal. So it's poetic readable. On the other hand, I want it to be really straightforward with with the sexual violence, and we've nothing ambiguous because it's not ambiguous in the Latin. And so I think a lot of that was me, being motivated through the feminist lens through which I had taught all of it for so long, and not wanting to know why I don't think that a lot of the previous translators were actively wanting to euphemized it, they just didn't have that goal. Right. It wasn't a goal that they had set out for themselves. And so they ended up you for maizing it for whatever reasons.

Dr Rad  23:09

Yeah, this is probably a great opportunity for us to delve in a little deeper and allow you to give us an example or two of how your new translation does allow for a more nuanced understanding of the meaning suggested by the Latin. So can you tell us a little bit about like one or two instances where you were, you know, meeting those goals about dealing with the sexual violence, you know, in a way that was probably needed in this sort of day and age, I suppose. Sure.

Stephanie McCarter  23:37

I mean, there are various ways in which this comes comes out, I think in the translation. First of all, I should say that it's an important thing Ovid wants us to wrestle with, right? I mean, he's really interested in the way power exerts itself on the body and causes it to transform. And I think he recognises that for for a lot of people. Rape is a transformative force that exerts itself on the body, and so it's part of the theme, and so you can't hide it. You shouldn't hide it, you shouldn't euphemized it, a lot of this is just in the link in the language he uses for rape. So, the basic word the Ovid uses to indicate rape is the Latin word for force, which is vis, V I S. and um this is a legal charge you could bring against somebody, and he uses two formulations of this one is to experience force that is, we would say, to be raped. The other word he uses is to inflict force, so when in theory, and that would be to rape they so there's no word in Latin that we can translate literally as to rape. I mean, this means only that and the way that the English word does, but his words are very clear he is clear Latin legal terms that would matter. add on to our word, or to rape and to be raped. So here's an example of that. This comes in Book Three. This is the mother of Narcissus. Her name is Liriope. She's a nymph. And obviously, he uses this formulation he at the river god Cessiphus inflicts force on her. So this is what we're, we're talking about, he raped her. I wanted to keep language of force in there because for me, it's really important to connect these things with other moments when Ovid discusses vis are force because it's not just rape, it's it's throughout the epic and it's just rape is one type of force that the Ovid designates with this term. They're all transformative. Right? So my translation says, kiss thesis once had trapped her there eIope in his curved stream and raped her forcibly is current snaring her. So I tried to use language so he raped her forcibly that's how I translated like he inflicted force. But also words that would suggest that this wasn't an embrace, right? He snake he ensnared her, he trapped her the word one word the Ovid uses in the Latin there is he wears it here implicavit, which means like, he entangled her right and, and then we have Yeah, vim tulit. So it is a very clear indication that he raped her. Some translations do this fine. David Rayburn, for example. He writes that the Cessiphus the river god caught her in the folds of His sinless stream, and then proceeded to rape. So it's clear right? Then you get other translators who are less less clear. So for example, we have Mandelbaum who says that within his waves he snared the Azure nymphs and had his way his way you're getting into very you can mystic territory with Yeah, then you get the one that is the most common way to translate a Ovidian rape and Humphries demonstrates this. This is Ralph embraces 1955. TRANSLATION were total denial of the river, the Liriope, whom the river guide Cessiphus embraced and ravished right in his and his watery dwelling, and you just get so many translations like that. So it's not about trapping, it's about embracing, and then ravishing, no longer means to re write when you can Look at the covers of a million romance book, not romance books, and they're gonna have the word ravish. in them. There's one I always show my students it's called ravish me completely or something like that you the in that way anymore. So to me, it just it becomes a comfortable way that translators can translate the language of rape without actually having to say, right, yeah,

Dr Rad  28:08

it's funny you say that because as soon as you said ravish, immediately, my mind went to a romance novel cover.

Stephanie McCarter  28:15

Absolutely. One thing I do all the time when I'm translating, I mean, all the time, several times a day is when I want to figure out what the nuances are of the words that I'm choosing. I'll go to Google Images and I'll type them in just to see what pops up. So if I want to avoid like language, that's too feminised thing or something for a character who's not in it's not in the Latin feminising language, I'll go type it in just to make sure. And so that brings me to a second way that I have tried to do things differently in my translation. And that is to avoid like gendering language when it's not present in the, in the Latin. So let me see if I can find an example of this. There's a couple of ways this happened. One is in the figure of Callisto, who you may know is a is a virginal Huntress who models herself on Diana and Diana is famously gender non conforming, right. And so Callisto also is gender non conforming in so many different ways. Not only is she taking part in masculine pursuits like hunting, she's also refusing to get married and have children she wants to say, a virgin forever so often describes her as as having messy hair. The Latin word is words are neglect toasts copy loose, so her neglected hair is really what this means. And the word copy loose with the word capillary from this, it has no gender connotation. She's just got neglected hair. So I translated this as messy hair. And I did a Google image search and I got lots of masculine presenting people and feminine in presenting people and I was like, okay, that works. When you Look at other translators, we have things like here's David Rayburn that she has loose, flowing tresses, right?

Dr G  30:12

Yes, men never dresses do they

Stephanie McCarter  30:16

never do. So if you go into Google Images and you type in loose flowing dresses, you're gonna get so many super feminine presenting hairstyles, right? So I was just being very careful with things like that. The way translate the body. What is this character wearing? If it's a female character R is her clothing. gender specific. Usually it's not so trying to avoid that it's very important for a character like Callisto. Right? Who doesn't embrace her femininity at all. She has no femininity to embrace. The other thing is little additions sometimes that translators will make. This is one I've talked about quite a lot. So Daphne's very similar to Callisto. She's a virginal Huntress. She wants to spend her time in the woods, and she actively rejects things that are associated with femininity, and Apollo attempts to rape her. Prior to this. He's looking at her body. And when he's looking at her, Ovid doesn't give her body any adjectives that would be feminising at all. He's just looking at her, her eyes and tells us that they gleaned it. They're kind of bright like stars. He mentions her lips, fingers, hands, arms, shoulders, so I didn't give them any adjectives. So I translated that as he sees her eyes gleaming like stars, her lips but those it's not enough to kiss to see. he marvelled at her fingers, her hands, her arms, her shoulders nearly bear the parts he cannot see he thinks are better. Other translators will add little things to end to feminise her. So for example, Ella Mandelbaum says that she has fingers hands and wrists that are unsurpassed. So he throws in an extra body part and gives it an adjective. David Weyburn says that he has that she has teasingly tempting lips, delicate fingers, shapely arms. And so it's just little things like that. That really does, they do make a huge difference. So it was not just the scenes involving the language of sexual violence, but also the way the bodies are described and the way that gender and sexualities are presented. I've

Dr Rad  32:36

just seen or the amount of effort that goes into this translation Sorry, I'm just like gobsmacked, I always suspected that this is what it was like. Hearing you talk about it, I won't even tell you how

Stephanie McCarter  32:46

many times translators mentioned breasts that are not there.

Dr G  32:51

I guess the temptation is real for some but so I think this is all really, really interesting, because it's allowing a way into the Latin through translation that maybe has not been available up until now. And part of this way of thinking about gender, I think, is also like, what sort of consciousness and experiences and ideas are translators bringing to the work that they do. And to segue slightly, you're the first woman to translate Ovid metamorphoses into English first in many, many years, there was Mary ins translation, which goes back to 1955. And more broadly speaking, how do you think your own perception and that you bring as a human being to translation? How do you think that has factored into the way you've approached this?

Stephanie McCarter  33:47

I think so much of this is to do with the fact that I teach young people who won't let me get away with anything else. I really think that that is what so much of it has boiled down to. There are, there are, there are women who translate who translate ancient texts all the time and replicate exactly some of these same things. So I don't and this is something Emily Wilson has talked about, as well. I think that one of the interviews she gave, I was just reading where she talks about, you know, she didn't arrive at her interpretations of these texts via the superpower of being a girl right?

Dr G  34:28

What No.

Stephanie McCarter  34:30

Women can women can replicate these these things as well. However, I think that for me, my own experiences, inhabiting my body and my identity as a woman, I think they have played in to my experience of the world that has led me to, to, to try to read and translate all that with a particular set of goals. Right. And so I just laid out clearly from the very beginning what my goals were. But so much of these goals have been formed by teaching young women, men, and I see what they go through in this world. And, and so there has been a real feeling of responsibility toward them. And so not just toward myself, but toward the young women who have had to live in a world that sees their bodies in certain ways that insists on seeing their bodies in certain ways that frames their experiences of coercion in certain ways. And, you know, I've been teaching women and men for, you know, it's awanee, for almost 16 years now, before that for a long time. And my motivations, were pretty much for my students and wanting to give them a text, no matter their gender, that would help them think more clearly about, you know, what is the relationship between their identities and their bodies? Like? What did you know? How can they see reflections in this text of what they're going through in this world, and I just felt they needed the tools to do that. And a really good, accurate translation that tried to capture those nuances was something I felt I could give to the young people who are going to be reading this epic, I hope for a long time to come.

Dr Rad  36:24

I think that's a really interesting thing. I think one of the things I like so much about your translation and reading about your translation is that you're not trying to hide your goals, as you say, you know, they're very much at the forefront. And I think I mean, personally, I believe that it's really hard for historians, Classicist translators to be completely objective when they're doing anything. And so I think being transparent about what it is you're trying to do with your work is important, because if you're not, it might lead people to maybe think that, you know, that you're maybe straying into the territory of say, inaccuracy, or something like that. But when you're when you're clear about, Look, this is what I'm trying to do. You know, I mean, they're you given some really great examples of where people you feel are being inaccurate to the Latin. But if you think about their context, it's probably their context that is leading them to make those choices, isn't it? Absolutely.

Stephanie McCarter  37:17

I mean, this is why I have felt fairly confident in calling it a feminist translation. Because I think that feminism has actually given me a modes and strategies through which to produce a more accurate translation. And I think that that inverts people's expectations in some way, we tend to think that a feminist translator is going to alter the text. But I think and again, this is something that Emily Wilson has also talked about, that a translator who is more kind of ideologically motivated, might better be better empowered to scrutinise their own biases in a way that a translator who automatically assumes that they, that they have no biases won't. Right. And, and I think that the to think of translation as ever being something we can do, completely, objectively is, is the kind of dangerous thing to do, right? We always need to recognise that any kind of interpretive framework is going to be shaped by culture, or whatever, we're gonna be able to exist outside of our culture and what we've, what we've learned, I think that what we should do is become not only good critics of ancient literary texts, but also good critics of our own culture, so that we can be aware of how we're being shaped by it. Oh,

Dr Rad  38:44

and you're juggling so many things when you're doing your translation that you're not necessarily doing when you're say, writing a history, which is not only being conscious of your own potential biases, but also the fact that you're juggling, as you said earlier, that artistic angle as well, you know, trying to translate that and it's a totally different language, you know, it's, yeah, it's just so many things you have to keep in so many balls in the air. That's

Stephanie McCarter  39:10

where the pleasure comes from. For me, it is the artistic process of translation, you know, so much. So much of my motive for doing this is, you know, to think about the themes of the gender and sexual violence and all of this, but on a day to day basis, I was wrestling with iambic pentamer.

Dr G  39:28

Like how am I gonna make this line work?

Stephanie McCarter  39:33

Why does it have to use this strange parenthesis here that sentence apart? You know, it's like you're

Dr G  39:38

ruining it for me over it's stuff that I think there's sort of like the technical elements of like playing with language because obviously, the way that Latin flows in its cadence is completely different from the way English operates. So the task is, is math to sort of go from the epic metre that of it is using one language to the kind of metre that works in English that is well established that people think of as naturally poetic and also mimicking natural a speech to a certain extent. Thinking about the modern reader of it, because I remember approaching of it for the first time in translation, and not being particularly enamoured of the text. And and I think so translation has a huge, influential role in the way that people get into texts like this. And for me, personally, the little historian inside me, I love the fastI because so it's packed with so much detail for the sorts of things I'm interested in, which means I haven't spent as much time with the metamorphoses. So what can modern readers gain from engaging with Ovid's Metamorphoses? Well, I think

Stephanie McCarter  40:49

for for any of his text, but especially the metamorphoses, I mean, the primary thing is going to be pleasure, right? He's a masterful storyteller. And probably, to my mind, some of his stories are the most delightful stories from the Roman world and the Greek world, you will read. And he's clever, right? His wordplay is something that drove me completely bonkers trying to reproduce, that's again, part of the pleasure. So so much of it is just going to be the sheer pleasure. We love stories, we love old stories we love. We love seeing that the playfulness with which all of it tells them and in those strange, inventive ways with which he connects them. So just the sheer joy of reading that. But I think probably more than in any other ancient work, we can think with all of it. I think he, he also, he challenges us continually across the ages, because they're always going to appeal no matter what the age is, that's reading them to the sense of abilities of that age, because he is so malleable. And so I think for some of my students, it's so shocking, that they will read this ancient text and you know, he has transgender characters, right? He has characters who are non binary, I mean, so explicitly, so if an incident can see that we haven't just invented certain concerns, right, that these have been here, we've been thinking about these things for so long. And so I think for a reader coming to this text, just you'll be blown away by the fact that we have the word we are still in our most current discourse, part of a conversation that's been going on for 1000s of years. And I think you can really see that with all of it pretty much more than with anybody, because I mean, in some ways, Ovid is so interested in exploring the experiences of characters who aren't going to be the centre, right in other stories. So the other epics that we have in the ancient world, as I was saying, they have, you know, a male protagonist at the very centre, they have a clear goal. Oh, it isn't interested in any of that. There's no protagonist in this story. There's no clear goal. And the most interesting characters are women. And so he's going to constantly be saying, well, what if we don't turn the lens on and do this, but we turn the lens on the people, the women around him, right, and we see the story through their eyes. So we see this in the Heroides, right, which is a series of letters that are written by mythological women who are often very victimised by these male heroes. And so from the very beginning of his poetic output, he's interested in in thinking, Well, what if we told this story through this side character's point of view. And so I think he's very good. As a storyteller of reminding us that there are more than one ways to tell every story, there's so many ways you can tell the same story and every single character involved in any event is going to have their own version. So he helps us to resist the idea of the singular authoritative tale. And so that's so fun to think with he, he leaves open so many alternatives. And so I think this is one great reason we returned to him again and again, because we are doing the very sorts of rethinking reframing that he himself has modelled for us. You know, so one carrot. One reason I love Elizabeth Columba'swork so much. She's the painter that I mentioned before, is that she is taking off his stories, and in completely reframing them, I think, in a way that he would love right? So he gives us a death or he No, He gives us a Daphne who has been shot by Cupid's arrow. Well, Elizabeth colomba has her standing there with Cupid's arrow. And so anybody who's listening to this, just go do a Google Image Search for Elizabeth colomba has Daphne. And so I think that he has he models how to be playful with stories and how to, you know, to see ourselves as as part of an ongoing dialogue in ways that no other ancient author to my mind quite does.

Dr Rad  45:12

You've definitely inspired me to spend the rest of the day perusing his work. Okay. So let me I have to finish off with another little peek behind the curtain in terms of this new translation. Because one of the things that struck me straight away when I first saw it was the cover art and the way that the text was formatted and that sort of thing. It just made me curious about how much input you actually had as to translate it into the publication and the formatting that went into this work and how you think the layout might affect the way that people engage with it. Sure,

Stephanie McCarter  45:47

I want to talk can I talk about the cover for a moment because I love I love I love the cover so much. I wish I were the person who would come up with the cover, but I am not. However, when I thought I was gleeful. What I told them was I didn't want an image of a woman being victimised on the cover. That was really important to me. Because again, it's how do we frame these stories becomes so important and so I wanted a way to frame it around women's agency rather than women's victimisation. So the one directive I gave to the art team at Penguin was I'm more interested in Philomela's Tapestry than her rape. And then they came back with this wonderful cover by it feature it features a tapestry by a Japanese artist, her name is Aiko, Tezuka. And she uses tapestry as a way to explore metamorphosis. So she'll often take old tapestries and weave them and re weave them, which is just wonderful for all of its perfect, perfect, and he uses tapestry so much is a metaphor. So his even from the very first lines of the epic, he asks the gods to spin out a song for him. And so it's a process of spinning, and he's going to weave it together. And then you have so many wonderful female artists in the epic. You have Philomela, who uses tapestry as a way to narrate her rape when she's lost her tongue because her rapist cuts it out. You have arachnid who weaves a tapestry in competition with Minerva, you have the mini ads, who are these wonderful set of sisters who tells stories while they're weaving. So it really I think it pits women's are in particular front and centre. And it's such an important theme. Because the colours are red and white. Those are the dominant colours on the cover. And those colours are so important throughout the metamorphoses,  Philomela's Tapestry is red markings on a white background. And so that colour combination was important to me. As well, it doesn't Be sure its central myth, just as of its doesn't In fact, the middle is kind of wiped out by the and weaving of the tapestry that's happening. So it kind of shows you there is no central myth here that we're going to be dealing with. And also it features some wonderful modern images. There's like a DNA double helix. There's also a uterus, I don't know if you notice that

Dr Rad  48:20

there's a huge I do not see that.

Stephanie McCarter  48:24

So I like this idea of the undoing of the body that the cover kind of evokes. So I just I love the cover. So much. I can't even tell you how much. I just am so happy.

Dr Rad  48:35

It's gorgeous. It is gorgeous. Yeah, the formatting inside, it's

Stephanie McCarter  48:40

probably a bit different from us other translators of the Metamorphoses because it kind of sets each tale apart, like it separates them and gives each like its own big title, those big titles are invented by me. Those are not in the Latin text. And that's a little bit different. And on the one hand, it kind of breaks up the narrative in a way that maybe other translations don't. And, and I can see how some people might be frustrated with that I had no input into that. On the other hand, there's something really good about it and that I think it highlights stories that could easily get lost. I was talking with somebody I can't remember who who mentioned to me that they had never noticed that after Niobe's children are all killed. We are told that pilafs mourns for her. And pilafs is famously the victim of the gods as well he or sorry of his own father, he was kidnapped by his own father and has the average shoulder and he was said to the gods, and when the gods figured out what his father was up to, they put him back together. And so he, I don't know he's just it's an interesting moment where this character can find sympathy for now be he's the son of an impious father and she's an hurt impiety led to her own kids getting to destroyed, but he can find space in himself to sympathise with her. And in my version that set apart like it gets its own title Pelops mourns for Niobe. And this person mentioned to me they'd never even noticed it before until they read my translation. So maybe it does that formatting can highlight stories that can easily be lost otherwise. Well, in

Dr Rad  50:21

terms of what you said about your goal being accessibility, readability and also thinking about the fact that as you say, you use this text as a teacher, and therefore you kind of approach it, I think through a teacher's lens. I think it does assist people who are using it in an educational sense and might be wanting to dip in and out of it. So yeah, I must admit, I personally liked that aspect of it. Yeah. I'm

Stephanie McCarter  50:44

good. And some of my titles that I give the different episodes are very different from the way other people have entitled those episodes. So I think that the episode with Callisto I just simply call that story. Jove rapes Callisto. And other I know, at least one other translator calls it like Jove in Arcadia.

Dr G  51:08

Okay. Yeah.

Stephanie McCarter  51:12

So I was very influenced by feminist criticism of newspaper headlines that want people to say upfront exactly what has happened. And I have gotten a little bit of pushback by people saying, when you say rape, it implies the author is making a judgement. And I'm thinking to myself, well, he is clearly telling a story about rapes, if they were stories about murders, could I not use the word murder? Because that would imply a judgement? Yes,

Dr G  51:38

definitely. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it. And I think I found the Section Breaks really useful, actually. Because it does allow a sort of a bracketing off. And it can also, I think, be an overwhelming kind of text to approach. This is true for any epic, but when you see the translation that laid out on the page, and it's like, I think to myself, what's my commitment to getting through the text, you know, like, how long before I get a real break. And sometimes when you're thinking about something like the Aeneid, or we're thinking about the Odyssey, you're like, I got a whole book of poetry to get through before I get a break. And it's like, if I if I don't sit down and make a commitment, we are in trouble. Whereas this allows for a more sort of a dipping in moment, a dipping out moment. And so yesterday, I was sitting down, I was like, You know what I'm interested in how Medea's story is being told here. And so I could go to that section and go through that part. It's in specifics, and that would be obviously good for me to contextualise later by going out and looking at the whole book and doing that. So we had approach but he didn't have to read the whole book in order to get there, which I think was really handy.

Stephanie McCarter  52:48

That's good to know. I mean, sometimes you need to catch your breath to I mean, it gives you horrific things happen here, right? It gives you a moment to death.

Dr Rad  52:59

And let's face it, researches and historians, they don't always have the time to read an entire text just for the one reference that they really need. And so I'm really I'm really pulling back the veil here on what we do. Yeah, I mean, if you're given a deadline for an article or book or something like that, you know, you only have so much time and when you're looking at an epic text, you're like, oh my god, I just want this flooding reference. I hate this whole thing.

Stephanie McCarter  53:27

You know, having taught Ovid many times I can say I had never read the entire epic through before, of course I had and someone who sits down is even taller, but in poetry. So this is another reason to become a translator. It's going to compel you to read carefully, all the things translating Catullus right now and I realised as I'm going through like they were poems I know so well. I basically have them memorised. And there are some poems. I didn't even know this. So it's nice to be compelled to read more. Absolutely.

Dr Rad  53:57

That's that's exactly what we all do. Let's be real.

Dr G  54:02

So heading towards the wrapping up phase of this interview. I'm interested in rewarding or interesting reactions to your translation that have touched you.

Stephanie McCarter  54:14

I think the most touching one was the book was reviewed in the in the New Yorker by DANIEL MENDELSOHN, which was wonderful, shocking. I'm still in disbelief that it was reviewed there. This was a letter that came in to the New Yorker after Daniel Mendelssohn reviewed it and this anonymous letter writer writes, I appreciate it no Mendelssohn's consideration of Stephanie McCarter's new translation of all of its metamorphosis, which presents the sexual violence that appears in the poem clearly. I reread the metamorphosis earlier this year 19 years after I was raped during the summer of my high school graduation. After a decade of therapy, I was struck by avid sensitivity to the complex social and familial dynamics that follow in the wake of sexual violence. As in his poetry, victims aren't simply transformed into other bodies they are abandoned, exiled and sometimes punished. She goes on to talk about Medusa. Medusa story is especially illustrative after Neptune rapes her in the nervous temple, the goddess turns her hair into snakes and banishes her to the farthest corner of the world to live with the monstrous Gorgon sisters, all who Look upon her who witnessed her in shame turned to stone. I know this phenomenon well. I have felt isolated in my biological and chosen families and have lost friends and romantic relationships because I stopped pretending. Even briefly that nothing had happened to me. People often turn away from what they prefer not to see McCarter's translation with its attentiveness to these elements of its poem is a gift to those who are ready to reflect on their experiences as victims of and bystanders to rape. I hope that it helps people learn to talk about this trauma and softens hard hearts. So that having that letter published by The New Yorker and being able to read that was something I mean, I wept afterwards. That's good to say on tearing

Dr G  56:02

up just hearing that letter. That's

Dr Rad  56:06

really powerful. Yeah. So that was,

Stephanie McCarter  56:08

for me the most. Still the the I can read that and know that all the effort I put in was, without a doubt, or every

Dr Rad  56:20

bit of it. Well, I think it just goes to show that you have certainly reached those goals that you set for yourself at the beginning of the translation. And it's so touching for all of us who are involved in studying the ancient world to think about the power that an ancient texts can still have in somebody's life these days. Absolutely.

Stephanie McCarter  56:40

And I think a good translation does show you that, you know, all of it isn't. He's not revelling in these characters, victimhood, right. And he's, he's, he's very interested in, in analysing what they've gone through and their trauma and to, to see that happen across millennia, is, I think, quite powerful. And it's been very powerful for my students. And it's been very powerful for me personally, as well, to know that there is this connection there across time.

Dr Rad  57:08

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I've had a growing appreciation, I think, the translation and I hope that this particular episode, really highlights for our listeners in an age of increasing discussion of AI and Google Translate and those sorts of features. I think it just goes to show that these sorts of things really can't replicate what you do with a translator of any text. But I think, particularly these sorts of ancient texts, you have to become, as you say, so familiar with the metre, the person, you have to think about their context, your context, you have to think about how the audience is going to respond. There's just so much, and so much careful choice that goes into a translation. I mean, as I say, I'm always in awe of translators, because language never came easily to me. And once I, once I started looking into it, the more I learned about it, the more I was just utterly gobsmacked it, I think it's something that we sometimes take for granted that we can just have translations of things into the language that we want. But it's really not an easy task by any means.

Stephanie McCarter  58:09

Absolutely, which is why it's been so great for me to see more classical translators getting some recognition and attention. So there I am with you, for many years, I didn't I didn't think about them, I took them for granted until I became one. And now Now I, I really hope that the field will start to recognise translation a lot more, I'm hoping that, you know, I'm hoping that we're really embracing it. And not just, you know, popularly but also, you know, through things like tenure and promotion, which translation has not always counted towards. And

Dr G  58:43

I think this is incredible that this field that sits right at the heart of a lot of the ideas of the university as well in its sort of historical formation, that translation, still, in this modern era is not necessarily considered the kind of work output that is relevant for the discipline. And it's like, and it's so essential, so absolutely essential. Absolutely.

Stephanie McCarter  59:07

I think I think for so long, a lot of that is because we embrace the languages so much that if you know, to be a real classicist, you had to set up Greek and Latin, right? And rather than there being a group of Classicist who could produce translations so that these can be broadly accessible, right? Classes, classics has not always been a field that embraced accessibility. It embraced exclusivity. And I think that's played so much into the way that we think have thought historically about translation. And it's not unique to classics, but I think it's been especially prominent in the field of classics. Oh, Look,

Dr Rad  59:47

at USP, you're preaching to the converted, but the more I learned about translation, the more I was like, why would one person ever take this on? It's like, it's massive. You clearly need more than one brain working on this or you need here. Huge amounts of funding because the time that effort that goes into it is insane. I mean, this is the thing, when Dr. G and I are working on things sure, like if you know, if we sit down and really put our minds to it, we can do a translation. But is it going to be any good? Is it going to really capture what that person is released

Dr G  1:00:18

one episode every six months, maybe?

Dr Rad  1:00:22

Yeah, it's just, it's just like, oh my god, like, why would we even bother if we don't have expertise? Like we rely on people out there to produce really great translations, you know, who have given their heart and soul to it as you have, and who loves delving into the minutia. Because otherwise, as you say, it's just a literal translation of the Latin. And so yeah, I've often thought this is clearly something that calls for a group effort, rather than one person slaving away, you know, translating the text every, like 20 years when something's changed in the context, and we need to do translation.

Stephanie McCarter  1:00:58

But then there's so many texts that have no good translations like, yeah, at all. And I have been told I was told when I embarked on translation for the first time by a colleague not in classics, but in a different field. But in an r1 Institute. We in the US, ICANN R1 institution, so it's primarily research based university. So we wouldn't give you gratitude not tenure. For

Dr G  1:01:25

and I'll never forget this. So telling.

Stephanie McCarter  1:01:27

Telling, yes, absolutely. But I am lucky that I'm at a and I get I don't think that this phenomenon exists so much in Australia, but at a liberal arts college. And so we are dedicated teaching undergraduate students and have a very broad view of what contribution to the field looks like. And the stars on campus are the creative writers. So we have a great creative writing programme. We have the Swanee review, which is the oldest continuously published literary quarterly in the United States. The Sewanee writers come Conference, which is a few weeks every summer where I sort of hide in my office because all of these wonderful writers I'm intimidated by come to town. Oh, no,

Dr G  1:02:12

you'll have to be in there next. Come on.

Stephanie McCarter  1:02:16

This is this is what I realised that novelists weren't actually gods that they were real people. Just be walking around and I'd see some amazing novelists. So we have you know, our have been I've benefited enormously from the context of my institution, they've been very supportive. That

Dr Rad  1:02:33

is good to hear. And Look, we'd love to wrap up with a final question. Are you working on something new at the moment? Or are you taking a well deserved break by the sounds?

1:02:45

There's no well deserved break. So I have a few things. So I have a book book that's coming out in September, called women in power. It's also published by Penguin. And it is a it's kind of an anthology, not a source book, but an anthology about ancient women, both mythological and real. And so we have a variety of existing translations, and then some new translations, but the women that you can expect to read about are people like Dido and Hypsipyle, and Omphale, and Semiramis. So legendary women, I translated Aristophanes assembly women in full for that, which is a lot of fun. And we have historical women. So we have Boudicca, we have Alexandra Salome, we have Amanirenas, Queen of Kush, we have a wide array of real women and historical or and literary women. And then so that's coming out in September, I'm also translating khatola. So that will be at some stage.

Dr Rad  1:03:46

That'll be interesting, because he's language is certainly a feature.

Stephanie McCarter  1:03:51

Gonna be fun. And then I just signed a contract to translate the Ars amatoria, yes.

Dr G  1:03:57

Oh, this is gonna be very exciting.

1:04:01

I'm gonna be returning both to Ovid and to Australia, because I will be coming to spend another year to there in 2025 2026 to translate the Ars amatoria.

Dr G  1:04:11

I feel like we're gonna have to take a flight to Brisbane.

Dr Rad  1:04:14

I was gonna say I think if you're up for it, we'll have to do an in person episode on your latest work if you're up for it. That

Stephanie McCarter  1:04:21

sounds wonderful. You know, you could always twist my arm and get me to come down to Sydney. You're in Sydney says

Dr Rad  1:04:27

oh, sorry. Sure. Cool down here. Not today, but in general.

Dr G  1:04:33

Don't right now. This summer has been just moist and awful.

Dr Rad  1:04:39

Yeah, throughout the entire interview, I've been like dabbing my my heart and my athletic going. Oh my god. Oh, well, Professor Stephanie micarta. Thank you so much for your amazing translation and for speaking to us about it today. listeners. I'm sure you're all dying to run out and pick up a copy of the gorgeously A decorated of his Metamorphoses for yourself. Thank you for listening to this special episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes at WWW dot partial historians.com. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes, just like this one. You can also pre order our new book right now. Your cheeky guide to the Roman Empire will be out later this year. However, if you lost all your money betting on a chariot race, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. Until next time, yeah yours in ancient room

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It is 403 BCE and we’re about to be blinded by some rhetorical fireworks. The situation between Rome and Veii is getting more serious.

Episode 150 – Rhetorical Fireworks

We've Got Chills, They're Speechifying!

As the Romans prepare for a long siege, the suggestion was casually made that the soldiers will need to remain in winter quarters. The Romans were not used to being in the field this long and the tribunes of the plebeians were immediately suspicious. Is this why military pay had just been introduced? To distract the people whilst forcing them to live in a state of slavery? Outrageous. Nonetheless, this is what the plebeians get when they keep electing patricians into office.

One of the military tribunes decides to hit back at the tribunes with their own epic speech. Who better for the task than the uber-patrician Appius Claudius? Let's watch those rhetorical fireworks fly!

Appius’ speech, with its’ mixture of conservatism and logic, is so effective that he wins some of the people over. As everything hangs in the balance, word reaches Rome of a serious setback at Veii. A sneaky night attack led to all the Roman siege equipment being destroyed by fire and some of the soldiers had died trying to extinguish the blaze.

Aule Metele (The Orator). A hollow-cast bronze showing an Etruscan male known as Aulus Metellus or Aule Metele in Roman-style clothing, dated to early 1st century BCE.. While this figure is not from our time period, the combination of Etruscan and Roman culture and the speechifying aspect of this statue seemed appropriate! Courtesy of https://www.collegesidekick.com/study-guides/boundless-arthistory/later-etruscan-art

This disaster tips the balance in favour of Appius’ arguments. Patricians and plebeians put their differences aside so that they could focus on the war effort. Those Etruscans were asking for it!

The senate no longer had to worry about whether the people were on board regarding winter service. Romans from various backgrounds were throwing themselves at the senate, begging to be allowed to go to war.

Who knew that war could make people so happy? That’s the Romans for you!

Please Sir. I Want Some… More?!

Camillus, one of the Furii clan, makes his debut in this year as one of the censors. In order to pay for some of these new expenses, the censors introduced some new taxes on unmarried men and …orphans. Way to be harsh, Rome!

Our Players 403 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular Power

• M’. Aemilius Mam. f. M. n. Mamercinus (or Mamercus) (Pat) Cos. 410, Mil. Tr. c. p. 405, 401
• L. Valerius L. f. P. n. Potitus (Pat) Cos. 392, Mil. Tr. c. p. 414, 406, 401, 398
• Ap. Claudius P. f. Ap. n. Crassus Inregillensis (Pat) Cos. 349 ?
• M. Quinctilius L. f. L. n. Varus (Pat)
• L. Iulius Sp.? f. Vopisci? n. Iullus (Pat)
• M. Furius – f. – n. Fusus (Pat)
• ? M. Postumius (Pat)
• ? M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 401, 398, 394, 386, 384, 381
• ? M. Postumius A. f. A. n. Albinus Regillensis (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 426

Censors

• M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 401, 398, 394, 386, 384, 381
• M. Postumius A. f. A. n. Albinus Regillensis (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 426

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy, ab Urbe Condita, 5.1-5.7.
• Dr G reads Plutarch, Life of Camillus, 1-3; Valerius Maximus 2.9.1; Diodorus Siculus, 14.35.1.
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Sound Credits

Our theme music was composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman

Automated Transcript

Dr Rad: Welcome to the Partial Historians!

Dr G: We explore all the details of Ancient Rome.

Dr Rad: Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other.

Dr Rad: I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G: And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. 

Dr Rad: Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. 

Dr Rad 0:32
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historian's. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:41
And I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad 0:44
So exciting Dr. G, because we are in yet another new recording setup.

Dr G 0:51
Oh yeah, this is very exciting, dear listeners, through the valued support of our honoured patrons, we've been able to purchase some slightly upgraded microphones, hello,

Dr Rad 1:04
I know and a mixer and everything.

Dr G 1:07
I'm feeling like a genuine sound engineer who does not know what they're doing.

Dr Rad 1:11
I Look at probably sounds crazy to you that we didn't have these things before. But hey, you know podcasting on a shoestring. And to be honest, it's also been very much affected by the fact that I have moved so many times that we needed to keep changing our microphones. Somewhere I was living about

Dr G 1:28
changing our setup every year or so trying to figure out what would work in what space? Yes,

Dr Rad 1:33
exactly. We're

Dr G 1:34
pretty excited for this.

Dr Rad 1:35
We are hoping that this is the sound

Dr G 1:38
to

Dr Rad 1:42
insert one of our high quality free sound effects you

Dr G 1:45
Oh, I'm gonna keep the vocal.

Dr Rad 1:48
But that is not the only thing that is new in our life at the moment. Dr. G. From these microphones.

Dr G 1:53
I'm so excited. We are absolutely thrilled to announce our upcoming new book. I know we never thought we'd write another book again.

Dr Rad 2:08
We really didn't. Particularly Not so soon.

Dr G 2:13
But we were absolutely floored to be approached by Ulysses press. Yes. And they are really interested in ancient Rome, but like with a bit of fun involved and a little bit of like, new Greatest Hits elements. And we were like very happy to provide that were like there are so many Greatest Hits when it comes to ancient Rome. Yes.

Dr Rad 2:38
So we are currently in the editing phase with this particular book. It will be out in November of this year, but you can pre order it now. It will be a little bit different to Rex in that we are going to be taking a slightly more populous turn, I'm going to say in a very wanqi way.

Dr G 3:01
What that means what that translates to is less footnotes yes, maybe no footnotes, more jokes,

Dr Rad 3:07
More drag race references that I'm sneaking in. Even if Dr G begs me not to,

Dr G 3:13
I can assure you that there are some Monty Python puns and references. So I'm excited for that.

Dr Rad 3:20
Yeah. So basically, it's us doing what we've always done, which is taking academic material, thank you academics, and translating it into something really fun and a little bit lighter to read so that if you're going on a holiday and you want some Roman history, you don't have to take every volume of Edward Gibbon with you.

Dr G 3:40
Well, that's gonna free up some space in the old luggage to

Dr Rad 3:43
ducted Gee, can you tell us just to give them a bit of a taste? What are some of our sections in the book?

Dr G 3:50
Oh goodness. All right now. So thinking about some of the sections of the book, we went for puns all the way down. Yeah, in chapter titles.

Dr Rad 3:59
I can't help myself when it comes to my one true gift and

Dr G 4:05
the one that I'm working on at the moment is Better Call Sulla. Oh, which I quite

Dr Rad 4:12
like I do like that one. And that was actually all you.

Dr G 4:15
Why, thank you. But you've got some great ones. Deadtime Stories.

Dr Rad 4:20
That is one of the sections where you will find stories of Notable deaths in ancient Rome. I did also like your ‘Animal Tales'. Wink Wink.

Dr G 4:30
and ‘We built this city on rock and roads.'

Dr Rad 4:33
They certainly did. To be honest, that's not a pun. That's just true.

Dr G 4:37
It's just the literal truth. It's not my fault. Somebody wrote a song about it.

Dr Rad 4:40
Yeah. So if that sounds like your cup of tea, please jump on and preorder now because I suspect that the more pre orders they are, the more our publishers will think yes, we need more of this kind of stuff. We want to commission more books.

Dr G 4:55
And I think this is the thing with modern publishing as well like pre orders do count. We're a lot of the sort of hyping up of something as well. So if you're interested and you enjoy our podcast, and especially if you enjoyed Rex, I think because this will give you a sense of comparison between the different styles that these kinds of writing of history could take. Because they're quite they're our personalities, I think, are going to come through and shine through really strongly. In both books, yeah. But like the way that they're laid out, and the way that they do the history is going to probably Look like a little bit different. So I think that's really interesting as well. Yeah. What I would say I

Dr Rad 5:36
agree. And because this is written in a series of short stories, I suppose that's really what it is kind of like short stories, and trivia and that kind of thing from ancient Rome. There's just huge diversity there, not too long. And it really is one of those things where you can just dive in and dive out, you know, you don't have to sit there and read the whole book in one sitting in order to understand it by what I know. Although you will, of course, miss the cumulative effect of my drag race-themed references.

Dr G 6:06
And we wouldn't recommend missing that.

Dr Rad 6:08
Exactly. But yeah, it is one of those things where you could definitely, you know, take a chapter for a class, not one of the

Dr G 6:16
I guess it depends on the school's policy. Well, yes. I

Dr Rad 6:18
mean, we do have a chapter on phalluses Whoa,

Dr G 6:21
you've let the cat out of the bag. I

Dr Rad 6:24
know. But you know what, I figured it was gonna happen anyway, with a phallic Thursday. So why not do it now? Because today will be a Thursday by the time we released this episode. That is our choice. That is That's

Dr G 6:35
true. Yeah. All right. All right. So without further ado,

Dr Rad 6:39
let's do it. Okay. So Dr. G, we normally don't spruik our book, we normally talk about ancient Roman history. We go at a snail's pace.

Dr G 6:51
We are trying to win the award for the longest ever undertaking of Roman history on

Dr Rad 6:56
important. Yeah, I think we can do it. I mean, you know,

Dr G 7:00
I know that we ain't got no rivals right now. Everybody

Dr Rad 7:01
else has already finished. Exactly. And when you go to your lab section in your library, and you see all the volumes of liquor, you think, wow, that's long.

Dr G 7:11
Just you wait, and you're up to book five.

Dr Rad 7:15
Not finished it just up to it. Yeah, yeah. All right. So we're talking about early Republican history, we last time, we actually covered a couple of years because there wasn't a huge amount going on. But certainly, Rome was at war. They

Dr G 7:30
were and you know, I've had it a dearth of sources for quite some time now. And I've really just got like place names, hints and tips about where Rome might have been having some like military dissatisfaction or satisfaction, depending on the day

Dr Rad 7:47
Miliatry dissatisfaction. I like that way of saying war. Yes, well, last time, we were setting up the siege they, which we know is going to be something that's ongoing and long. But we also were dealing with warfare against the Volscians. Good old Volscians. Yeah.

Dr G 8:08
What are those classic ongoing nemeses of Rome. Yes,

Dr Rad 8:12
exactly. And they actually had a bit of a victory against the Volscians thanks to a treacherous slaved. Can't get good help these days.

Dr G 8:22
Servilius Romanus so I believe his name was That's correct

Dr Rad 8:25
that well, that's the name. He was given a course after he turned coat.

Dr G 8:29
And what do you think he was called before he got that name all the way to

Dr Rad 8:35
Loyalest Mostest.

Dr G 8:38
Shining Star of the Volscii I tried,

Dr Rad 8:42
He was the best slave they ever had. But anyway, so they had some victories, which was good, because you know, the situation at bay, it's just kind of a bit of a standstill, if I'm honest. But we did also even a little bit before that something which I think is going to be significant to recap, we've been dealing with the issue of military paid Dr G.

Dr G 9:00
Ah yes. Yeah. Look, Livy's seems to suggest that, what 406 is the first year where military pay gets introduced, but we're pretty sure that's just a sort of a hint of maybe the professionalisation of the army that will come much later. Yeah. This seems to be a bit of a one off, maybe based on circumstance. Yes.

Dr Rad 9:21
And I think that's very much tied up with the situation out there. And since that's our focus today, I thought I'd better mention that, because we went through the whole backstory. If you want to hear more about it, please go and check out our episode on 406 BCE to hear all the details. But certainly there's a lot of debate about actually what was going on why it was introduced, was it introduced? What form did it take? They're just questions that are unanswered, where does the money come from? Other than money. So I definitely suggest checking out that episode if you want the full backstory. But with that being said, Dr. G, I think it's time to dive into 403 BCE.

You can't see us right now listeners, but we always do wavy arms when that happens

Dr G 10:29
we insert music later in post.

Dr Rad 10:31
And we have to remind ourselves by doing the way. All right Dr. G. Now I'm guessing that Dionysius is still keeping his distance from you now,

Dr G 10:41
How dare he, I'm so sad.

Dr Rad 10:44
He's the first man that I've known who's able to keep away from you.

Dr G 10:47
I do have some very exciting news though.

Dr Rad 10:50
What is that?

Dr G 10:51
I do have a new source

Dr Rad 10:54
Is it Valerius Maximus.

Dr G 10:55
Yes. And

Dr Rad 10:59
Feel like I'm in improvisation here. What's your other source?

Dr G 11:05
Plutarch, – gasp – I know.!

Dr Rad 11:08
Of course, Plutarch, dammit, I knew that.

Dr G 11:13
I was like, filler respects was How did she know

Dr Rad 11:15
that exciting stuff. That is exciting stuff. But Look, even though you have Plutarch, and Valerius Maximus and therefore actually out-source me. I'm still gonna let you do the magistrates, because I feel like it's kind of become your thing.

Dr G 11:29
And also, like, as fair warning, neither of the sources that I have annalistic in nature.

Dr Rad 11:35
Well, I had a feeling .

Dr G 11:36
it's all over the shop. So alright, so military tributes with continental power is the name of the game for 403. Is

Dr Rad 11:43
it just I feel like there are a lot of people. There

Dr G 11:47
are many, many people. At the very least there are six and at the very most possible nine. Wow. Yeah, just madness. Well, you know, there

Dr Rad 11:57
is a lot of conflict going on right now. Well, yeah. And even they insist on telling us that it's not because of that. I feel like it is because there's definitely something going there's nothing going on.

Dr G 12:07
There's a bit of bloating at the top at this point. Six military tribunes It's a lot. So we have Manius Aemilius Mamercinus.

Dr Rad 12:17
A name i know well.

Dr G 12:18
or Mamercus. Nobody sure about that one. Yeah. He was previously consul in 410. Yes. And was also a military tribune with consular power in 405. Yeah. So he's had a couple of tours of duty at the top. Yes.

Dr Rad 12:31
And I think also, this is a name that we're familiar with. I feel like it's a it's a family name that's been passed down because we've had we've had a guy with a very similar name before who's been involved in some stuff. Yeah. And

Dr G 12:41
the Amelii gens is one of these well known. We've got these famous families and This list is populated exclusively with very famous families

Dr Rad 12:52
Are you suggesting that it shouldn't be a patrician?

Dr G 12:56
I mean, the whole point when they said they were going to have military tribunes was to allow plebeians go and that's never happened. Clearly

Dr Rad 13:03
just a gesture. Like exactly to make people feel like they had to say but I hate it when they do that. Alright, so we've got Aemilius.

Dr G 13:13
number two is Lucius Valerius Potitus. Okay, yes. Also a military tribune with consular power previously in 414 and 406. Ooh, the notable year notable Yeah, so maybe popular pants.

Dr Rad 13:30
Well, the Valerii I generally a pretty popular family out they

Dr G 13:35
they say to me, yeah. Then we have Appius Claudius Crassus Inregillensis

Dr Rad 13:42
Boo Hiss!

Dr G 13:45
The Claudii are back in town.

Dr Rad 13:47
Yeah, it's been it's been too long. To be honest. I've actually been kind of missing their presence as villains in our story. Yeah,

Dr G 13:54
my note here is cool. Cool. Cool. Yeah.

I love it. Great. Fantastic.

So glad for that. Marcus Quinctilius Varus.

Dr Rad 14:05
Okay, new kid on the block

Dr G 14:06
number four. Yep. And then number five Lucius Iulius Vopisci maybe Iullus. There's a there's a whole bunch of I feel like we need some complicated names in there. Yeah,

Dr Rad 14:19
whenever we mentioned someone with the Iulii ‘s name I feel like there's always like a question mark. Iullus. Yes Your name

Dr G 14:26
Yeah, like there's like a refinement within the family tree. Oh, my

Dr Rad 14:31
Are their parents this cruel?

Dr G 14:37
And then we have Marcus Furius Fusus.

Dr Rad 14:42
thank God. The Furii have really been dropping the ball if I'm being honest. They're back. Yeah, so back and yeah, here we sit in our Furii t-shirts ready for action?

Dr G 14:54
I'm so excited. So these are the six who we are feel relatively confident. And confidence is a pretty low measure of things when it comes to this period of Roman history, because we've got the FastI Capitolini is essentially the source for these names. And we know it was created late.

Dr Rad 15:12
I actually have the perfect analogy for this. It's about as confident as I feel in a bikini. Oh, that's not much listeners, not much, but

Dr G 15:21
you Look great. And then we've got these three other figures who shadowing Yeah, they don't appear on the Fasti. Also, it seems weird that they have to be somewhere because they do things in this year. Sure. The first one is Marcus Postumius. And this might be a real furphy of a figure because we're about to have another Marcus Postumius Albinus Regillensis. I did notice that they were to be the same guy. But one we don't know their full name. Yep. But the really important one out of these three is Marcus Furius Camillus.

Dr Rad 16:01
See? Suspicious? Because why do we have two sets of guys with very similar names? I know, Camillus is the guy that you were reading about in Plutarch. So I know he's a he's a thing. But it's just weird to have two sets of guys with very similar names and question marks around some of them.

Dr G 16:21
Yeah, so we've got that Marcus Furius Fusus. As a military Tribune, yeah, we've got our Marcus Furius Camillus. Yeah, like, Okay, well, I mean, they are different names. But there's only one name. That's different. All right. Okay. Yeah, that's possible. But is it? Is it what's going on? And then the two Marcus Postumii? i Yeah, yeah. So we've got lots of questions. And not only that, those last three that have the question marks around them, as potential military tribunes with consular power. Two of them may have also have served as censors with more question marks. Yeah,

Dr Rad 16:56
definitely. It's not just question marks about whether they were censors. I mean, we have question marks about how official any of these sorts of positions really are. I know that it was actually quite a while ago that we did an episode about the census in the Republic. But nonetheless, there are questions about how the Romans really at this early stage regularly taking a census of a Oh,

Dr G 17:19
there. Yeah, these are the things that again, you know, it's we're just not sure about? Yeah, there's definitely been instances where the census has been referenced before show that we've just absolutely, yeah, whether they're doing a census now open to question whether these two guys, are the censors, even bigger questions, because the way that we understand the census, from later periods when we've got much better evidence, is that the censorship is kind of this additional mastery that sits above and beyond and slightly outside of the cursus. honorum. Yeah. But it tends to be the kind of position that you only take up once you've reached that whole threshold within the Cursus honorum. So it would be usually given to somebody extremely wise, extremely powerful. Somebody who's had the consulship before. And in this case, we've got a couple of what appeared to me maybe no names coming through.

Dr Rad 18:14
He's a Furii!

Dr G 18:17
Oh, yeah. But even so

Dr Rad 18:20
to be starting your career with this, which is what it seems like

Dr G 18:23
that's that's the way that the evidence is presenting itself right now. Yeah. And that makes us wonder, what do we know about the censorship? Really? Yes, period, which is not a lot. How does that compare to the later version of the censorship? We're not sure. And who is this Camillus character anyway?

Dr Rad 18:41
Well, exactly. And I mean, I think one of the things we can say about the censors and the census in this period is that, Look, if I was going to bet on anything, it'd be that they're taking account of the citizens, because that's just makes good sense. But as for the other powers that a censor has, they're the ones I have real questions about. So I'm

Dr G 19:03
looking forward to the sorts of details that Livy might have on this. And so then I can share with you the really bizarre details that I think I might have.

Dr Rad 19:11
Let me tell you 403 is another bumper year. It's kind of like the way that I make my stepkids have like only big birthdays every three years, four or six was a big year now for three is a big sorry stepkids. Anyway, all right. So let me set the scene for you a little bit and you can jump in with your Plutarch and your Valerius Maximus when you feel the need. So peace was to be found everywhere in Italy, except between Rome and Veii

Dr G 19:44
Wow, okay, well, that does not explain six military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 19:48
No. Now, as we said, we know that there was conflict brewing in this quarter that has been bubbling away for the last couple of years. Okay. Hence potential The Military Pay may be becoming a feature, right? So by this point, after a few years, they're both incredibly worked up. And I'm sorry, I'm just gonna have to use this analogy. It's a Harry Potter and Voldemort situation one of them has to go. They can't both survive at the moment. It's just at that point, it's going to be a war to the death this time. So both cities hold their different kinds of elections. Romans decided that they were going to go for military tribunes, as you've noted, and even Livy notes that there were more than usual, he gives me the number of eight. Oh,

Dr G 20:39
okay. Well, out of a possible nine. Interesting.

Dr Rad 20:43
Exactly, exactly. Now, the people are they they're channelling a bit of the feelings that the Romans had not so long ago, which is that they are O V A campaigning, year in year out. It's just military service. It's just fighting. So they decide that a way of dealing with this situation would be to elect a king. Oh, I know. Fascinating. I know. Right? Oh,

Dr G 21:10
well. I mean, so the Etruscans have kings. Yeah. They've had kings before. It's an option. Yeah. I didn't know they weren't doing it all the time.

Dr Rad 21:19
Well, yeah. This is the interesting thing, isn't it? Yes. And the other interesting detail I can add here is that the rest of the Etruscan people because of course Veii is just one city, out of many Etruscan cities, 12 ,in fact, and the other Etruscan people are horrified. They hate the idea of kings, apparently. And they also personally dislike the person who was elected. So it's a double whammy that that suggests

Dr G 21:46
that the politics of the Etruscans has really progressed since we last checked in with how they were running their show.

Dr Rad 21:51
I was gonna say they seemed very upset when Lars Tolumnius died. He was a king. Exactly. That wasn't that long ago. It was not that long ago. I mean, for us, it was years ago, of course, but for them, it was decades. Yeah, it is a bit strange. And it feels like

Dr G 22:09
a narrative of convenience. Livy? Look,

Dr Rad 22:12
it seems like it's been about 35 years since we've had an Etruscan King mentioned in a way that we can understand about Yeah, and nothing has been said about, you know, the Etruscans going down the Roman path of swearing that as God was theirwitness, they'd never have kings again.

Dr G 22:29
I'm throwing you out and you're staying out! Yeah!,

Dr Rad 22:32
so it seems like maybe the Romans are just assuming that everybody hates kings as much as they do. But it does also imply this weird thing that kings are somehow an optional accessory in the Etruscan state.

Dr G 22:44
Maybe they are an optional accessory, but doesn't sound like anybody Etruria is very happy about that.

Dr Rad 22:49
It's just so weird. But anyway, now the reason why crisis Yeah, yeah, that's true. Maybe Maybe their option of King is a bit like the Roman option of dictator. Maybe that's what it's about. But who knows, unfortunately, Livi gives me no more detail. He just goes on to trash the king in question. Now, the reason why he was disliked was that he was super duper wealthy and arrogant. What a terrible combination.

Dr G 23:16
I don't know why you'd put somebody like that in power

Dr Rad 23:18
I know. Now on top of that, his actions suggests that he's just not really a very kingly character. He had busted up a very serious sacred religious festival. I mean, that's sacrilege. Dr. G

Dr G 23:31
Literally. Okay. So the gods aren't on Veii's side at this.

Dr Rad 23:35
It was in a this is where we're going because yeah, basically, he was just angry about some perceived slights politically and so he was in a bad mood, and he decided he was going to ruin the Gods good time.

Dr G 23:49
Okay, do we have this guy's name?

Dr Rad 23:51
No don't think so. So anyway, he's not happy about the fact that the Etruscans had chosen someone else to be priest instead of him. He says get the better of him. Clearly somebody whose emotions not under control, which means it's weird that if they're only electing a king in a time of crisis, they turned to this guy.

Dr G 24:12
Yeah, you're not putting the best man in for the job. No wonder the rest of the Etruria is up in arms, being like, are you idiots?

Dr Rad 24:19
Yeah. And the Etruscans. As we know, the stereotype is in Roman sources that they are very religious, like more religious than the Romans. I mean, Livy basically given the impression in this account that they live for nothing but religion.

Dr G 24:33
Well, and a lot of Roman ritual seems to have been passed through in from that cultural lens of the Etruscans as well. So you definitely see where that idea might come from.

Dr Rad 24:43
Oh, for sure. Look, there's no denying that the Etruscans were religious people, but we know that something of a stereotype that they are, you know, it's like saying the ancient Egyptians were for religion like yeah, it was very important was very central, but we have to also remember, that's also just the kind of stuff that survived from their civilization. You know, the big stone temples and whatnot? Yes, they did take it very seriously. But we are only looking at part of the puzzle here. So I'm always a bit you know, hesitant about that kind of stuff but as we know they're also very big intellect religious rights, making sure that they are followed through properly. So this kind of thing, just not okay in the Etruscan rulebook according to the Romans.

Dr G 25:23
What a lens. Yeah, now

Dr Rad 25:25
the Etruscans decided as a people like as in collectively, that they were not going to assist very in any conflicts. If they insisted on having a king. They actually took a vote on it. Wow, okay, you're out in your own. Yep. You absolutely. Oh, boy. The people were they did not tell the king this because they were really worried that given his temper, he was going to shoot the messenger.

Dr G 25:48
Seems like this is going to lead to some future problem. Yeah, yeah.

Dr Rad 25:52
He basically would have seen anyone who told him this as the head of some secret rebel conspiracy against him, rather than someone who was just simply reporting what had happened. Oh, yeah. Yes. So the Romans hear about this. And this is obviously good news for the Romans, because they now know that they is kind of on their own. However, they're also aware that that might not always be the case. And clearly, they're kind of aware that this is going to be a long game situation, just in case they decide while they're doing their season, that they're going to build double fortifications. One set looking to vai and one set looking in the general direction of Etruria. Which to be honest, I feel like they both have

Dr G 26:39
a very similar position. Just in

Dr Rad 26:43
case they decided like once things started getting real, that they were going to come to Veii's aid after all. Okay,

Dr G 26:50
so is the idea here that these fortifications are relatively close to Veii as opposed to Rome, Rome is not taking a defensive position here, but more, they're putting a forward fortification in place to enable them to have a position to easily attack from I

Dr Rad 27:07
wish that he gave me that much detail. I don't I don't really know. But the way it's described, it does kind of sound like it might be defensive fortifications for Rome, perhaps. And that's why maybe they're slightly different directions. Because obviously, if you would literally at they, why would you build double fortifications, you're literally on the doorstep? Well,

Dr G 27:28
it means that you can have like, sort of an encampment,

Dr Rad 27:31
I suppose. Yeah, that's true. They are setting up an encampment, so not a

Dr G 27:35
terrible military strategic. Really?

Dr Rad 27:39
I mean, I know that they are obviously deciding on a seat. Okay.

Dr G 27:44
So if we're thinking about the position of a relative to the position of the rest of Etruria. Yeah, Veii is directly north, not very far away. No. So you could have something that sort of positioned at the edge of the Tiber River, presumably, on Rome side, defensive fortification, but you could also have something off to the north east, potentially, on the side of the Janiculum. That would allow a sort of more advanced forward defence fortification,

Dr Rad 28:13
let's run with that the Romans seem to know what they're doing. So I'm going to assume that they're being smart about it. Let's hope so. Yeah. Now, this is obviously an interesting situation, because once again, we do have this division between the Etruscans, you know that they're not automatically going to fight together. Now, we've seen this before, it's very clear that each of the 12, Etruscan civilizations are free to act independently. It's not something you can assume that they're going to all come together and come to your aid and that sort of thing. However, it does show what we see the common bond between them that they actually get together and vote on these sorts of issues, as well as having religious celebrations which can be interrupted. So

Dr G 28:54
it's a well functioning League of states, essentially.

Dr Rad 28:59
Yes, exactly. Yeah. All right. So the Roman generals who are in charge, they have decided upon a siege, not just a straight attack at bay, therefore, the soldiers are going to be setting up winter quarters, which they have not apparently done before. Well,

Dr G 29:17
that doesn't make sense. According to 406 BCE.

Dr Rad 29:23
This is the thing I think this is how these stories are connected. And Look, I told you the chronology is messy at this point in time and things might not be happening quite when Livy's says they are in quite the order, etc, etc. But this is exactly what the plebeians had been suspicious about some of the complaints I should say, when military pay was introduced. So kind of like, Guys, this stuff isn't coming to you for free. Like there's always going to be strings attached. The patricians aren't just randomly nice, even though that's what you seem to be taking away from this situation.

Dr G 29:57
I'm shivering in this new camp. The made and even though they pay me, I don't know if it's worth losing all my toes.

Dr Rad 30:05
Dear Lucretia I don't know whose idea it was for us to wear sandals all the time, but I hate it. And why do we wear skirts?

Dr G 30:16
My balls are freezing.

Dr Rad 30:20
All right, sir. People in Rome hear about this decision, and they're not happy about it. Specifically, an a tribune of the plebs. Oh,

Dr G 30:31
I have no named characters. Oh. They're just out and about. I mean, I assume they exist. Yeah.

Dr Rad 30:39
I don't know who the tribunes actually are, except for the fact that they are once again troublesome, unhappy with the situation. Yeah, exactly. So Livy's says that it's because everything had actually been quite fine. And they've been given nothing to be upset about that they decided to make a mountain out of a molehill about this whole issue, because they needed to find something to be upset about because otherwise the plebeians weren't going to be unhappy with the patricians and things would be peaceful.

Dr G 31:03
I don't know about that just told them that they're gonna have to overwinter as part of this new military strategy. I feel like the plebs are pretty capable of being upset all by themselves,

Dr Rad 31:14
Pish tosh Dr G. It's quite clearly a situation of things being spun so that they Look much worse than they actually are.

Dr G 31:22
Oh, Livy's, revealing your conservative leanings. Exactly.

Dr Rad 31:26
Yeah. So the tribunes of the plebs decide that this is something they could make the plebeians angry about. And so they start doing that. They start pointing out, we told you strings attached, those are strings Pinocchio, where you told you that there would be some reason that money was being introduced to military service. We knew it, we knew it. We told you, so we're going to do the I told you so dance. Because they had suspected the patricians would never do something just to be nice. Young men are clearly going to be required now to serve endlessly. Where's the time for self care? Where's the time for family? Where is the work life balance? Winter has now been taken away from us. It's not coming. It's going. Why? Why? Because the patricians were trying to get virile young bands out of the city, so they could not campaign for anything or help the plebeians as a group. These were going to be the young men who were sent off to Veii, they of course, they're going to be worse off than the people in Veii because clearly they're going to be left defenceless and alone.

Dr G 32:21
Or use bad times. And I can see that maybe the tribune of the plebs have an interest in like whipping up the plebeians?

Dr Rad 32:46
Of course. Oh, yeah. And they're not done yet.

Dr G 32:49
I'm still having the visual of them dancing on like the rostra being like,

it's happening. We foreshadowed it is happening.

And everybody being like Booooooo! Yeah.

Dr Rad 33:03
Well, they point out that the people of Veii because they're the ones being besieged, they get to live in their own houses. They get to live behind their own walls, where are the plebeians going to be out in the middle of frickin nowhere shivering, that's adopted you the

Dr G 33:19
convenience of being the besieged. I

Dr Rad 33:21
know, the ones enduring food shortages and famine, potentially, I don't know. So the Roman soldiers are going to have the pressure of being constantly on the watch on the job. And they're doing it in winter conditions. Oh, you wait for Dr. G. They can no whip out the S word. This is slavery.

Dr G 33:42
Oh, my God. Yeah,

Dr Rad 33:45
not even the kings. Not even the consuls, and I'm talking about the consoles before there was the option technically of military tribune with consular power where plebeians could technically run for office, but they never get it. Okay, dictators, decemvirs. None of them as bad as they were had to treat the plebeians like this keeping them at war. Always.

Dr G 34:10
Who's gonna grow the food? Yeah, who's gonna defend the city if another enemy like, I don't know, the Volscii show up.

Dr Rad 34:18
Oh, and you haven't even thought of the worst situation. Dr. G. What if the men now trying to impose these conditions on the people ever became actual consuls instead of military tribunes with consular power or worse yet, dictators, Dear God, it would be a blood bath. But of course Dr G, the plebeians kind of deserved it because after all, they have yet to elect a single to plebeian to the Office of Military Tribune with consular power and now they were flanked by eight patrician options. What the actual hell?

Dr G 35:03
the argument that the tribute of the plebs are putting forward? Like you've had to chance, this is what you've done. I'm

Dr Rad 35:08
still channelling their voice. These are my points of view. No, no, no. You got I just got she's lost it. Truck finally got to it. No, no, no, no, this is what they're saying. They're like, Couldn't there be just one out of eight? To remind the patricians that the plebeians would like to see their families from time to time? End of story.

Dr G 35:32
We just need a seat at the table, guys. Yeah. And you didn't do it never voted anyone in

Dr Rad 35:38
exactly. And you know it to be honest, if things are happening the way that they say I actually do not blame them. However, it seems super suspicious that the plebeians would never elect one of their own. Like, it's just been too long at this point in time. And this is one of those things where we have to suspect the narrative of the conflict of the orders. It just doesn't make sense. It is

Dr G 36:01
a problematic narrative in many respects. And I think also part of our issue is that we would love to know more about how the voting system actually worked at this point in time, but it's very early days in terms of the Republican system. And the very concept of saying that there is a Republican system is maybe too soon for that. Absolutely. So is it the case that the plebeians are not in a position politically in terms of the nature of the voting to be able to get up one of their own? I suspect that's what I feel like if we Look at the way that voting systems turn out in a later Republic, that might be part of the explanation. But it's also Yeah, it just seemed weird. I mean, from Livy's sort of rhetorical perspective, because he's definitely bringing some light, you know, big, bold characterizations here. Some sweeping brushstrokes, and quiet like of the drama. is, there's this suggestion that there's this ongoing process of struggle that sits behind everything. Yes. And so that question about what is going on here, is never really fully resolved. Now, from a historians perspective,

Dr Rad 37:15
I think that's exactly it. As we've often highlighted, I just find it hard to believe that if the liens truly are a outnumbering the patricians, which seems likely given everything we've been told, and be able to elect one of their own to the most prestigious office in the state, it just seems so unlikely that they wouldn't have done it at least once in the past, what, 45 years or something, they've been able to do it, it just doesn't make sense. There has to be something else going on here. Which if we Look at the voting system, as you say, it might be that technically the rich, their vote counts for more, or something like that. Who knows? But it's got to be something like that.

Dr G 37:53
That certainly plays into later understandings of voting systems. But yes, yeah, yeah.

Dr Rad 37:58
Yeah,

Dr G 37:59
interesting and dramatic.

Dr Rad 38:00
I know. I think the thing that we that I reason why I have to highlight it is because it's just so disgusting. That Livy's makes it their fault, that their situation

Dr G 38:13
Way to victim blame Livy. Exactly,

Dr Rad 38:15
exactly, yes. Like, you know, oh, you can't afford to turn the heating on for your family. You can't afford good food for your family, it was clearly your fault for being poor. I just find those narratives too similar to some that we hear today as well.

Dr G 38:29
Completely demeaning, and inappropriate. Exactly.

Dr Rad 38:33
Now, you may have noticed that the way I was speaking just soon, as well, you did notice that it's kind of odd, because I wasn't actually giving you like a speech, per se. And there was no one named right. Lean into that because I think that's also I think that's also a rhetorical device because we're about to have our response that goes for paragraphs to what the tribune of the plebs said, which is just reported, it's not an actual speech, okay. It's likely to be paraphrasing what they're talking about. Okay. And they are unnamed, and

Dr G 39:05
he's now going to give a real like a speech in quotation marks as far as he's concerned. Yeah.

Dr Rad 39:10
He is now giving a speech – flesh rabbits. Boing, boing! to none other than Appius Claudius. Oh, no. He's back baby. Well, I mean, he's not, but yeah, his family is back.

Dr G 39:28
The Boys are back in town.

Oh, well, I can't wait to hear what a Claudii has to say on this matter. Yeah.

Dr Rad 39:36
It is quite a long speech. So basically, one of the reasons obviously for having 8 military tribunes with consular power is that some of them obviously need to be off setting up the siege against Veii dealing with that kind of stuff, but he can't leave the people of Rome completely unattended, especially if they're mostly plebeians. Who knows what they get up to Dr. G, and therefore, some military tribunes had been late. Left Behind specifically to snuff out any potential treachery and it's just as well, they did, because the tribune of the plebs has played right into their hands.

Dr G 40:08
Oh, boy. All right. Okay, that's the setup. It's not the case that you would want to have a military Tribune located in Rome, like you do almost every year that we've had military tribunes in exactly just in case. Yep. Somebody comes up from another area. Yeah. And attempts to attack road nothing to do while the other guys are out and about.

Dr Rad 40:28
It's not normal. It's not normal. It's clearly something concerning, there's something sinister going on. Oh, there is now Appius Claudius comes from a family very experienced with dealing with tribune of the plebs, and they like, and their attempts to stir up trouble. Now, although this is not the famous Appius Claudius, in fact, there's been a couple of famous Appius Claudii that we have dealt with over the years. This is not one of the ones you know, from the December and that sort of thing, but these are their descendants and therefore, as we have highlighted before, the Romans actually think they are very similar in character. This is a guy that we have mentioned before there, he was the one who a few years ago suggested the strategy of turning the tribune of the plebs against each other. Oh,

Dr G 41:14
yeah. Okay, this guy, this Appius Claudius. Yeah. Okay. Now, of course, cut from the same cloth,

Dr Rad 41:21
educated Roman. He's got the gift of the gab Dr. G. He's good with his rhetoric. And that's why he gets an actual speech apparently, and a name. They could now be no doubt that the tribune of the plebs were not really working for the benefit of the plebeians. They're just troublemakers. It's obvious. Whenever there may have been something wrong with their lives, emphasis on the word May, the tribune of the plebs just blow it all out of proportion and make it into such a big deal. Now, they were even stooping so low Dr. G, that they were trying to spin something good into something evil. Military Pay was designed by the patricians to restore peace to Roman society, but it is a cool way to claim that the tribune of the plebs just want to hate whatever the patricians do, regardless of whether it actually benefits the plebeians or not so ungrateful. I know. The Tribunes of the plebs only exists to solve political problems so they can then create them. Or they can just so they can stay in a job.

Dr G 42:35
If it's not dramatic, like why are we here? I mean, the people don't need looking after if everything's good, right, so things must be bad.

Dr Rad 42:41
Exactly. Now, the tribune of the plebs, jealously guard access to the lands and won't allow contact between the plebeians and the patricians because they don't want anyone realising how kind and magnanimous and just frickin amazing the patricians actually are because their loyalties might get transferred. They need to keep them angry and separated.

Dr G 43:07
Are we talking about the same Claudii, who have treated everybody so badly so often over successive generations? They have not treated me and you're telling me this, Claudius is now telling us that, you know, they've got a heart of gold and they've just been misunderstood. I think

Dr Rad 43:23
you will find if you examine the historical record that the Claudii have been harsh, but fair, oh, boy. So he basically likens this again to slavery. Interestingly, saying it's kind of like when the Masters won't allow other people to interact with their slaves in any capacity whether to you know, beat them up or give them a little kiss or something, because they just don't want them exposed to you know, any outside influences. That's what this situation is like. The champions of the plebs should clearly have spent some time fostering their kindly side, and by their I mean the patrician's kind side. And they should have been working on the plebeians obedience. Oh, Harmony would be possible. If the tribunes just you know, got on the good side of the patricians and made the plebeians obey everything they said, clearly,

Dr G 44:18
I think this, this whole argument rests on a fundamental misunderstanding of what the role of the tribune of the plebs might be. Well,

Dr Rad 44:26
I think you'll change your mind cuz I've got quite some time. Now, if there was internal peace in Rome because the patricians and plebeians were actually getting along with each other, the sky was the limit for Rome. It's this internal division that's holding them back. They would dominate everyone in the area. But alas, Tribune's.

Dr G 44:48
Okay, all right. Appius. Claudius,

Dr Rad 44:51
now he gets the actual point of military pay. So the tribunes of the plebs, were suggesting that no pay should be good. Even now, because it had not been given in the past. You remember that was one of the arguments they put forward in 406 that like how are you going to, you know, back pay these people? Yeah, how are you going to sustain this exactly unfair, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, but you are missing something here. It makes no sense to back pay, because the work conditions are new. Therefore, it's a new situation. Therefore, new pay has been introduced, things are just evolving in tandem with each other. And it's also normal for people to get paid work.

Dr G 45:35
Well, but surely it would also be normal for them to get paid for their regular summer military gig.

Dr Rad 45:41
No, no, that is not the case. Because he's like, it's stupid. That pre that people who serve previously and like volunteered for it are upset now. That is stupid. And that is because they got six months of the year off. They got to go home and see their families and farm and stuff. These guys aren't getting that. That is why they're getting pay. Okay? You can't have everything. Don't get greedy. Now soldiers are happy to receive pay. And in return, they should be okay with being away for a little longer just to touch.

Dr G 46:16
little icicles hanging off their moustaches. Yeah.

Dr Rad 46:19
And this is just oh my god, this this just seems like something that someone today could easily say. It wouldn't be right, if they got paid for a year service, but only worked half. What. So he's basically saying like, if we introduce military pay, but still allow them to go home for six months for years, they'd effectively be getting paid for like a year's work, but they'd only be working for half. That's what he's suggesting. Now, I know what you're gonna say logically, why not just pay them a little less and pay them for six months? Don't get carried away with ledger have

Dr G 46:49
they considered having a two levee system where they've got the summer army and the winter army and they rotate and people who want to get paid sign up for the winter army. And people who just like to Swan around in the sunshine, volunteer for some of military work.

Dr Rad 47:09
You know, I texted you. I'm at a point in the speech where Appius is getting uncomfortable talking about money,

Dr G 47:15
classics, patrician, it's

Dr Rad 47:16
crass. It's mercenary and crass.

Dr G 47:19
It's time to move on to something else. This this point is not well, with the crowd.

Dr Rad 47:24
His point is that we shouldn't really be talking about money, because quite frankly, this is a civic issue. You're a citizen of this place, are you not? And therefore why are we even paying you? Yeah, it makes you seem like a mercenary.

Dr G 47:38
Yeah, you're just doing your civic duty. Exactly.

Dr Rad 47:40
Defending Rome, so

Dr G 47:41
we can all enjoy it. Yeah.

Dr Rad 47:42
Why are we even bothering to nice to you? We are the state we are the government. It's just a fact. That room should not have started the war or should just get on with it. Like room would, which is awesome, obviously. And get it over with ASAP. I mean, we all know that Rome is going to win. Now. That's a very convenient argument. Because quicker get this done, the less we have to pay. It's great for him to say well, clearly Rome should have started wherever there's gonna be an issue. But we have so we've just got to continue. Surely, surely the Romans are fired up about they surely they want to finish the war. For that reason alone. All of Greece was happy to fight for 10 years over one woman. What is room's excuse at the moment? The Romans aren't even in that bad situation. They're barely away from home. They is really close and it's all going to be over really soon. Stop you're complaining.

Dr G 48:47
I love how he's brought in a reference to the Trojan War. Well, literally the Peloponnesian War was right there.

Dr Rad 48:54
I think it's just you know that the Roman historians are leaning into the parallels to the Trojan War. They're making this their epic. There

Dr G 49:02
is no woman and I'm disappointed because we don't get to talk about women in ancient Rome enough right now. That's true.

Dr Rad 49:10
That teasing us seven times strategy seven times he has started a war. Oh, we're actually in counting will Appius Claudius Okay, all right. Yeah. They never mean it when they forged truces clearly, because otherwise, why would they that multiple wars. Yeah,

Dr G 49:29
I mean, the six other wars explains that.

Dr Rad 49:31
They keep invading Roman territory. They keep writing Roman fields rude. They was behind the betrayal of Fidenae. And the Roman settlers who were killed there and the murder of the Roman and voice Oh, yes, we're going all the way back there. Yeah, they tried to turn all of a true warrior against Rome. And to this day, they wants nothing more than for Rome, to be wiped from the face of the earth. Well, they only just recently after all, were rude to the Roman ambassadors. Ambassadors don't know why but in in in there and threaten them with death. Clearly

Dr G 50:12
also rude. Yeah, clearly. Yeah,

Dr Rad 50:15
right we should be giving 110% When fighting such utter bastards, they is in a vulnerable spot room needs to take advantage of this, they're surrounded Dr. G, now is the time they've not been able to harvest or farm because after all, this whole situation has been going on for a while now. So if room withdraws, of course, Veii will just kind of go back to plundering Roman territory because they need the resources. So Rome would not really get out of a war if they backed off now, but rather would find war moved into their own territory.

Dr G 50:56
Now, for all the Appius Claudius actually kind of is is a terrible human. Yeah,

Dr Rad 51:01
he makes some good points there that that's a good point. And he also points out, how would the soldiers feel about this situation? After all the siege stuff they've built after all the defences, so much effort? Are they just going to leave all of that behind until the next season? Which makes me think that, you know, we were talking about before that it must be like, close today, and this stuff isn't really at risk if they leave? I

Dr G 51:25
think so. Like they've set up some equipment already, I think, yeah. Yeah. That would be my assumption. And if they've already started a siege process, yeah. Then they would have set up some land works for that. Exactly.

Dr Rad 51:38
Yeah. Apologies to all the military historians out there. I know that we don't do a great job. Mind you, maybe Livy could do better do? Well,

Dr G 51:47
I think this is the thing is that we're reading Livy, Livy has whatever extensive knowledge that he might have about certain areas, but I'm not sure that military matters unnecessarily. He's strong suit. And also, as an annalistic. Historian, he does tend to story eyes. That's true. That's true. I mean, that's not really word. But you know what I mean, Storify. The military encounters in such a way that you don't seem to have a sense of confidence about where things were anyway, necessarily,

Dr Rad 52:17
history, this is true. He has given me no geographic markets. So in other words, the soldiers would be upset because they've gone through all this effort constructing all this stuff, and they're just gonna have to leave it there. And then do all that hard work all over again. Next season, why not just stay in place and push on until it's all over? And what else might a delay lead to? Right now, the Etruscans not willing to help Veii. But what if their feelings change over time? The trust can so mad right now about that whole anonymous King issue. But what if negotiations change that down the road, there were a lot of things to consider, and a lot of potential repercussions people. The tribune of the plebs are just being weak. It's like dealing with a sick person who needs a strict routine in order to get better. But the tribune of the plebs, they want you to follow a path where you're just going to make your illness worse, and lasts longer, and perhaps make it more serious by giving in to requests for food and drink, when clearly what you need is nothing, no sustenance do not feed this problem. He's not done yet.

Dr G 53:32
Like always building up to something maybe

Dr Rad 53:37
even putting aside the actual war, it is important for Roman soldiers to get used to persevering to sticking around until the job is done. And not leaving when victory is close. Just because you're off the clock.

Dr G 53:52
You guys haven't been trying hard enough.

Dr Rad 53:55
Well, he's saying, Are you suggesting that the Roman soldiers are not tough enough to endure winter? I think you'll find that they are. The Romans are the toughest. The soldiers would also be embarrassed to find that people thought they were so weak, they couldn't handle a little snow. Room also needs to consider its wider reputation. Oh, yeah, here we go. If they become known as those people who weren't see a siege through well, they're hardly scary.

Dr G 54:30
It's just going to encourage the Volscii. Yeah, and the Aequians and the Sabines. Yeah. And anybody else who's ever had a problem?

Dr Rad 54:39
Exactly. So the tribune of the plebs. If you Look at it from this perspective, Dr. G and I am looking at from Appius Claudius perspective, are really on the side of the enemies of Rome. They want to throw they have a lifeline here that people have they would be thrilled to hear of internal problems. was in Rome and in its army, they right now seems unified, you know, in its own little way. After all, they even have a king. Don't worry about even breaking a sweat. And that's without help from the Etruscans may remind you one small. Normally, Romans who run away from battle would be beaten to death with a cudgel. But the Romans are so used to hearing outrageous things from the tribune of the plebs that they are thinking about this possibility, even though technically it's about betraying room. The tribune of the plebs only need to take that final step and basically poison the army and get them to turn on their commanders. Wow. Yeah. That's, that's it. That's the next this is the article. They're gonna go to the army. They're going to turn them against the commander. So that's the way this is headed.

Dr G 55:54
Okay, so this is some strong rhetoric coming through from Appius. Claudius. Yeah. Not only are the tribune of the plebs, obstructive, but they are now enemies of the state. They are hostis. Absolutely. In the Latin way of talking about these things. Intense. Yep. Liberty

Dr Rad 56:13
in Rome. Dr. G, clearly means that there is no respect no respect at all, not for the Senate, not for the magistrates, not for the laws, not for ancestral customs, not for institutions of the Senate, or military discipline. This is where it's led us. It's madness. I tell you madness.

Dr G 56:35
You might as well fold up shop and I will just die right here because it would be a faster way to go than the slow death that they're setting us

Dr Rad 56:43
up for. Yeah. Have you relieved to hear that Appius Claudius is finally done.

Dr G 56:49
In the back corner of the forum, a whole bunch of patricians are being like (clapping) and tribunes of the plebs after one side being like,

Dr Rad 56:59
exactly. Now, all of this rhetoric all of these points, which we admit not all are bad. Some have some logic to them, but some of them whoo boy. Some

Dr G 57:08
of them are very strong appeals to emotion. Yeah.

Dr Rad 57:12
He is doing well, though, against the tribunes of the playoffs. Okay. He's his speech is obviously quite persuasive.

Dr G 57:23
To patricians, all right.

Dr Rad 57:26
Well, this is the thing. The speech was probably that speech was probably given in the Senate, I would say, but we get the feeling that he's giving similar types of speeches to anyone who will listen but anyway, he's doing quite well. He's, I think, causing definitely enough confusion that the plebeians are like, hang on a second. Wait a minute. Wait, just a cotton-picking second. And then something went wrong at Veii. Oh, yeah. So as we know, there is nothing that brings the Roman people together more than when they're facing an external enemy. This is pretty much what happens. This gives Appius the edge over the tribune of the plebs, and like his documents, and that sort of thing, because something goes wrong on the very front. And the patricians and plebeians start to be more unified and their purpose because they understand that we need they need more energy at this siege. Allow me to tell you what was happening at Veii. So the soldiers had apparently pushed forward the terraces towards the town. Now I can only mean that this is some sort of siege equipment that is getting very close to Veii itself,

Dr G 58:41
move the turret.

Push the wooden rabbit further.

Dr Rad 58:49
Yes, to the point where the mantles have this terraces practically touching the woods. Now, for anybody who's even familiar with like mediaeval siege warfare, I think you could kind of picture the kind of equipment that they are using here. It's the same kind of terminology you sometimes get coming through for like castles and the kind of siege equipment you get for that as well. And that's Mantlet. So basically designed to protect any attackers from projectiles that might be thrown at them. So let's get a little bit set, you know, come up in the middle. From like a death, it's hard to describe efficacy, just take my word for it. Okay,

Dr G 59:21
so this is allowing the advancing force of the siege Yes, to go forward to go forward. Yeah, be somewhat protected, get a little bit closer and hopefully, do something that's going to disturb that wall or disturb the defenders on the wall.

Dr Rad 59:37
Yeah. And they seem to be doing pretty well. Okay. However, the army focusing very much on building up their siege equipment. So you know, they're working hard constructing as much as possible during the day, but they neglected to watch them overnight. And then all of a sudden, very Roman seems really stupid. Maybe they thought they were too big. I don't know. But all All of a sudden one evening the people have a suddenly throw open the case a huge number. So just rush out with torches set fire. Yeah, set fires are all the siege equipment, and just in like an hour, all their work building up the terrorists and the magnets and all that kind of stuff went up in flames, which tells me that it was wooden or something. Plus Romans died trying to put the fire out. Oh, trying to save them. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Dr G 1:00:28
This is bad news. Yes.

Dr Rad 1:00:30
And this is the news that really gives Appius the edge because obviously the Romans find out about this. Everyone feels very sad. The Senate is feeling very worried. They're like, what if we have to continue to deal with this, this questioning of the military pay? What if the tribune of the plebs decide to try and use this development to their advantage bragging that the you know, the war if it was all falling apart anyway, like, who knows what they're going to do with it? Suddenly, men in equestrian circles, but who did not have horses from the state?

Dr G 1:01:05
Oh,

Dr Rad 1:01:05
this specific group

Dr G 1:01:06
very true equestrians that got their own horses. Yes.

Dr Rad 1:01:10
came to the Senate. They had had a meeting, apparently, the meeting of the men who are equestrians but don't have horses from the state have their own horses,

Dr G 1:01:20
these the Knights who say Ni,

Dr Rad 1:01:23
they had talked and they decided they were going to volunteer to serve using their own horses. Well, that's very generous of those into chests, the Senate is overcome, and gives them an official vote of thanks. The people hear what is happening in the farm and the city of Rome, and they rushed to the Curia because the plebs don't want to be outdone by these jerks on horses, the infantry now want to do something special to and they declare, we will go anywhere, kill anyone, whatever you want, just tell us we'll do it. And if Veii is that location, well, then by God, we will stay at our person until that city is taken. They're

Dr G 1:02:08
like the problematic second child who feels like they never really had enough of dad's love

Dr Rad 1:02:13
Exactly. The Senate. I actually think this is probably a high point, I don't think they've ever been so ridiculously happy that they've got people throwing military service and saying we'll do whatever it takes whatever you want. They were so happy that it couldn't even just be taken care of with like a formal vote of thanks. They did not formally call the plebs into the Curia to hear their response. Instead, the senators overflowed onto the steps outside the Curia. They're going into the

Dr G 1:02:46
street doctor. They're thanking them in person. Each

Dr Rad 1:02:50
Senator personally called out or signed to the people how happy they were get out the party poppers stone for a celebration. The general message of the senators is that room was a blessed place. And because of the kinds of people that live there, they were going to live forever. No one was ever going to be ruined because they were unified. They were getting along the Senate, just lovely equestrians, the Senate has lots of opinions. The Senate has left this day. You knew what you have outdone even us the patricians for being awesome, sweet, kind and well intentioned, because I'm happy. And basically, this is where this all kind of starts to wrap up. For me. The patricians and the plebs all are out there, crying from happiness together until the Senate say this is really nice and all but like, time is money.

Dr G 1:03:44
It's been nice at all. I've just got this vision of senators, like doing slightly awkward hugs of plebeians. Kind of like I don't know when you love to wash. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:03:53
well, like just like getting out like a finger like an index finger and like poking them on the forehead and be like, BOOP.

Dr G 1:03:59
you're so cute.

Dr Rad 1:04:03
So what this means structure chain, and this is how four three kind of wraps up for me. The military tribunes, obviously, you need to hold a formal assembly to just thank everyone and tell them that the Senate will forever remember and treasure, this display of loyalty to the state. And they voted that all of these new volunteers who are not technically required to serve at this point should be paid.

Dr G 1:04:28
Oh my God,

Dr Rad 1:04:29
I know. And the equestrians were also granted money allowances making this the first time that the cavalry began to serve on their own horses but received money from the state for their expenses. It's like an expense account kind of thing, you know, reimbursing them for that kind of stuff. So these new volunteers they went today. They were on such a high that not only did they very quickly rebuild what had been lost, but they built even more. So the Roman They were pumping out the provisions with so much enthusiasm. It was scary because the Romans back home. After seeing everything that's been happening, they wanted to take just the best asbestos care ever have the best asbestos army that ever lived. The end.

Dr G 1:05:16
Wow. Okay, so some some queries. And so when we're talking about building siege equipment, yeah, in this period, yeah. This is vast amounts of manual labour,

Dr Rad 1:05:30
you underestimate how much happiness can help.

Dr G 1:05:34
But even in the original compliment of the siege equipment that they're trying to put together. Yeah, living makes it sound like there's quite a lot. All right, like there's substantial fires, people die and trying to put out those fires to save that equipment. Yeah, so you have to keep in mind that we're talking about cutting down trees. Right, that's labour, turning it into things that's labour, making sure that it really works. Turning trees into things, I think that I made the Siege Tower completely out of wood. Incredible. All it will take is one fiery arrow disaster. And all of that is happening. So they denuding parts of the landscape in the area,

Dr Rad 1:06:14
which I do not care for. No. Well,

Dr G 1:06:17
I mean, it's necessary. It's to be expected. There's lots of forest, I would assume much more in Italy, then than there is now. But the sheer manpower required for all of that is phenomenal. So the idea that happiness would replace all of that lost equipment within the year. It's

Dr Rad 1:06:36
not just happiness, it's tears of joy and song.

Dr G 1:06:41
They sang well, they work because I'm happy. Look, I understand that there was some joy, but the senators themselves aren't doing any of the work. It's all the volunteers. So the organisation of the manpower is substantial. Yeah. You think that the logistics of that getting them all out there getting that work done building rebuilding everything, essentially, yeah, turning up to that encampment for the first moment to realise that you're looking at a Bert field, essentially, of the things that used to exist. Like, this is tough work. I

Dr Rad 1:07:15
think getting caught up on technicality.

Dr G 1:07:18
I'm just trying to make this. Give it a sense of maybe if this is real. Okay, let's say where we're in a period of time where people are doing this kind of stuff. Whoa, what is

Dr Rad 1:07:29
If it's real? If it's real? I didn't just spend the last hour talking to you on the assumption this was fiction!

Dr G 1:07:34
Well, I know. And in the sense that this is a historical podcast, yeah. Obviously, something happened in the past. Was it this? I have some questions? Anyway, Look,

Dr Rad 1:07:46
to be fair, okay. And this is where I'm going to let you off the hook a little bit. I just enjoyed watching you try and put it together. He doesn't actually give me a timeframe. Okay. So when he says that this is what happened, he may not have meant it happened all in this one year, he might have meant that this is something that because of what happened in this year, this is what was possible. So this is what the Romans will achieve. Eventually. All right.

Dr G 1:08:11
I think this dovetails nicely into the small amounts of source material I currently have available.

Dr Rad 1:08:17
I hope it's another long speech from Appius Claudius,

Dr G 1:08:20
certainly not. I can reassure you on that excellent. I have died or a stimulus who gives us a few of the characters and military tribunes. Okay, get some of the names, right doesn't get the number, right. That's fine.

Dr Rad 1:08:34
Well, I don't know that we can say anybody like me,

Dr G 1:08:37
but then we also have this side quest, if you like, of what is happening with Camillus

Dr Rad 1:08:45
Ah, yes. Oddly, doesn't doesn't get mentioned in Livy.

Dr G 1:08:49
at all. And for me, this was the most exciting part of this year because we have somebody mentioned who's going to become really quite significant. So yeah, I'm not gonna give the game away about

Dr Rad 1:09:00
why but he's definitely like up there and like a career leanness kind of level. Yeah,

Dr G 1:09:04
he's gonna Yeah, watch this space. Camillus is gonna be a thing. Yeah. So Camillus comes to us for the first time. So I'm gonna start off with things that I like to do, which is delving into the name. Yes, please do. So his full name, as far as we understand it is Marcus Furius, son of Lucius Spurius, grandson of Spurius Camillus. Which means that his father was Lucius Furius. And his grandfather was Spurius Furius. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:09:37
The T shirt paid off.

Dr G 1:09:40
Never let it be forgotten that we were there first, Spurius Furius. Yeah. So there were there are a couple of Spurius Furii out there, yeah. So it's important to you know, hone in on who was who? Yes. And really we're talking about the father being likely to have been Lucius Furius Medullinus, okay, so he was a military tribune with consular power in 432 it's gonna tear

Dr Rad 1:10:06
I recognise that name so always makes me think of gold medals. He's

Dr G 1:10:10
won a lot of them. He has also in 425, and 420. So a relatively substantial career in that top job shop. And then we've got the grandfather Spurius Furius Medullinus Furus. Ooh, yeah, that's quite an name. And if it's this guy, he was the consul in 464 and the suffect in 453. So we've got this lovely family lineage that relates to the Furii and particularly our favourite Spurius Furius, who have come up in previous episodes, obviously. And then we have this guy Camillus, who's related into this group. Yeah. Not the first son. He's prime and Marcus, his father's name is Lucius. So he's presumably a second or third or fourth child, not the first one, always called the first one after yourself in that really weird Roman way. So we've got that. And then we have Plutarch's the Life of Camillus. Right, which is thematic in its nature. So I get very little about 403 specifically, I would say it should be here. It's a big year, clearly, but I mean, commercially,

Dr Rad 1:11:23
because of big speech. Mostly it is a speech.

Dr G 1:11:27
But, uh, let us give you a bit of a taste of things to come with Camillus through Plutarch. So he seems to be an incredible figure. And he wins many and great successes.

Dr Rad 1:11:43
I expect nothing less from a Furii

Dr G 1:11:45
Five times he will be chosen dictator. Wow. Four times he will celebrate a triumph. That's pretty good odds. And he will also become known as the second founder of Rome.

Dr Rad 1:11:59
Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. Haven't we already had a guy?

Dr G 1:12:04
That'd be like that. You arguing with poor talk right now? I have it.

Dr Rad 1:12:12
Apologies, please check.

Dr G 1:12:13
So these are the sorts of things to keep in mind. We've got this sort of foreshadowing of of this great Camillus figure. And it's not at all clear about 403 Except that he's listed as the sensor. Yes, some materials.

Dr Rad 1:12:32
Ah, yes. And this is where attacks comes in, does it not?

Dr G 1:12:37
Well, this is where we get some odd things. So this idea of like, what is this censorship? And what is going on with that?

Dr Rad 1:12:48
profound questions all Yeah. And

Dr G 1:12:51
apparently the the ideas that are connected to the censorship, forcing unmarried people to get married

Dr Rad 1:13:01
or attend attacks them? Well, no, wait for it. Okay. No, no,

Dr G 1:13:04
don't jump ahead like that. Okay. So the unmarried need to get their marriage on? Uh huh. And apparently this is because there's been so many wars and Rome has lost so many good men. Well, yeah, there was a lot of widows and widowers around,

Dr Rad 1:13:19
you might say, actually, that all we need is a few good men.

Dr G 1:13:26
Indeed, and Camilla is going to make sure it happens because there needs to be more children. Obviously, Rome cannot succeed if it does not reproduce. It needs its own men. needs little baby Romans a

Dr Rad 1:13:38
battlefield of a woman. It's not yes to give birth in a time with new medicine. Yeah.

Dr G 1:13:44
And you can imagine, you know, the women are sitting around being like,

well, I lost Marcus last year. And then this year, it doesn't Look like Lucius is gonna make it through. I've

Dr Rad 1:13:55
godammn sandals, who just offer no protection against the cold.

Dr G 1:14:00
He came back and he didn't have any toes. What

Dr Rad 1:14:03
am I gonna do with this sweater? It ain't gonna fit my next husband?

Dr G 1:14:08
I just don't know Cecilia. I just don't know if I can keep getting married like this. I frankly, sick

Dr Rad 1:14:16
of this all these letters

Dr G 1:14:20
So, you know, it's tough out there for Roman women in general. And you know, this now new requirement, apparently you because you gotta get married. Right. So that's it. And then the other thing that seems to be associated with the censorship, which seems particularly cruel, is the taxation on orphans.

Dr Rad 1:14:38
I was waiting to say much.

Dr G 1:14:41
Because guess what orphans? Yeah, you have not suffered enough in this life having lost your parents. In fact, there needs to be a specific orphan tax because if you don't pay your way, no one will.

Dr Rad 1:14:56
I'm presuming this is to fund the pay and also the equestrian stipend. But is this because there are so many orphans. Now, it

Dr G 1:15:07
seems to be the case that the the one to do with the unmarried people is like, right, you've got to reproduce. And the one with the orphans is you were brought into this world you weren't given life. You must continue on, and you must stay away. Yeah. And just because your relatives aren't around to do the good job of paying the tax that the state needs doesn't mean you get away with

Dr Rad 1:15:28
it. Toddlers, this is not a state where you get a free ride. Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 1:15:33
Yeah, you can pay in grain. That's fine. You must pay. Wow,

Dr Rad 1:15:38
ha, I saw that. And I was like, that must be wrong. But I knew that you were going to be looking into it sounds like I'm going to ignore it. Because it just seems weird and cruel.

Dr G 1:15:48
It does seem weird. And I don't fully understand it. And I feel like maybe I'll source material hasn't quite wrapped its head around why that would be useful or good or necessary. Certainly with the unmarried, Roman population. They're kind of like you're alive and you have a duty to create life. That's kind of why you're alive. So it's a very sort of, like, evolutionary determinist perspective being like, Wait, you're here. You better get on with it. Yes, that's what you're here to do.

Dr Rad 1:16:14
You're here. You're not queer. Get used to it. Yeah,

Dr G 1:16:15
you must. And you shall, and we will find a way to make you married. Yeah. And then the orphan stuff? I don't know, that's just a bit baffling.

Dr Rad 1:16:23
Is that a way of forcing people to adopt the orphans?

Dr G 1:16:28
I don't know. The tax seems to fall upon the orphan themselves? I don't know. Yeah, I

mean, that's the thing. I don't understand wandering up to adults being like, Please adopt me. For the tags, and what

happens to an orphan if you can't afford to pay the tag? I

Dr Rad 1:16:44
know, it's so strange. Sorry, Camillus, covering himself with Real Glory with that policy. Yeah. So

Dr G 1:16:51
I can't wait to see what he does next.

Dr Rad 1:16:53
I mean, the idea that this might be slightly anachronistic somehow or something like that, it kind of makes sense, because obviously, some of the details that have been brought up in my account, I've definitely questioned as maybe being anachronistic, like the idea that there was that specific punishment for Roman men who were cowardly in battle, you know, the idea that they got beaten with a casual, like some sort of penalty or something. We're not really short, like, it is true. The Romans did take military discipline seriously, particularly later on, which is where we have records of it, you know, coming through sources like I believe Cicero, I believe there are references and Tacitus for those particulars. Polybius. And that sort of thing to this sort of idea that the command might somehow indicate this person has to be set upon beaten. Yeah, and that sort of thing. But we don't know how far it goes back. And certainly I think the question is, does it get back this one? And as as often is the case? The answer is generally no. Well, we don't know. We don't know. Probably not. Just because as we've talked about numerous times with the military pay aspects, we just don't really show how formal any of this stuff is. So the idea that you would have, I mean, you don't have a formal standing army. I mean, sure. This is meant to be the rumblings of that starting, but you don't have it. This is just a special occasion kind of thing. Surprise. So the idea that you would have formal punishments for this kind of thing is a bit iffy. I mean, it's like it's not out of the question, obviously, because Rome is at war a lot. So maybe there are penalties. But the idea that this was like some sort of official accepted punishment, that's what people are questioning. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. And certainly, definitely, this idea of equestrians receiving some sort of reimbursement or pay and that sort of thing, which again, does happen later. There are some issues that we will talk about. I mean, it actually gets, I think, quite technical, the whole idea of the cavalry. This doesn't seem likely for this time period, as we've talked about, and this whole military pay thing. And certainly, these taxes, I think are meant to be feeding into this, but so none of it kind of adds up. Yeah, we've

Dr G 1:19:17
got more questions than answers, another classic partial historians.

Dr Rad 1:19:23
All we can say is unlikely. I mean, it's certainly all of these things will be introduced, for sure. There definitely will be because obviously the equestrians are essentially becoming like the cavalry. Right.

Dr G 1:19:37
And I think there's that thing where it's like stuff has to be mentioned for the first time at some point. Sure. Yeah. It doesn't necessarily mean it's the first time that it becomes regular rise.

Dr Rad 1:19:49
Yeah. And the cavalry when they were getting paid, did get paid more because they do have more expenses, I guess, and they are also looked at as being pretty special. But yeah, the idea that Rome has a specific cavalry and a specific infantry and they're each trying to outdo each other is the Senate. I vote no. Yeah, it all seems a little a little immature. A little bit early than Yes. At least trying to figure out where the money's coming from.

Dr G 1:20:20
Orphans. Yeah, exactly. We're gonna fund the whole thing on orphan

Dr Rad 1:20:24
lately logical to pay for rich people's horses. Putting a tax on it. Just when you don't room couldn't get any more conservative.

Dr G 1:20:31
Weird. Yeah. All right. Yeah.

Dr Rad 1:20:35
Okay. But that's I think that is all I have.

Dr G 1:20:39
Okay, in which case, I think it's time for the partial pick.

Dr Rad 1:20:44
I'm looking forward to this.

All right, Dr. G, tell us what the Partial Pick is all about?

Dr G 1:20:52
Well, there are 50 Roman Eagles up for grabs, across five categories Ding Ding!. And so we will see how the Romans score against those categories, the first category being military clout.

Dr Rad 1:21:07
Okay, I feel like there's some good and some bad, they are besieging. But then their stuff gets burnt.

Dr G 1:21:15
It was all going great where they got Whoa, and they

Dr Rad 1:21:19
get more reinforcements. And they seem to be more numerous and better than ever before. And morale is high. So I don't know how you want to take that.

Dr G 1:21:25
Um, I mean, on the balance five, okay. Although

Dr Rad 1:21:29
I will just point out that you gave them a six are actually conquering something last week. I feel like maybe, maybe a four, you know, like, like, you know, like they're asking a

Dr G 1:21:41
consistency from me that I don't possess, I might vote solely on my feelings.

Dr Rad 1:21:46
Oh, I think that's clear. All right. Okay. Well, let's maybe say for Shall we like, because like, it's, you know, it's consistent. I

Dr G 1:21:53
can go lower? No,

Dr Rad 1:21:56
that's ageing. And they haven't been technically defeated. They just lost some siege equipment. And seemingly some people, you know, they

Dr G 1:22:02
lost some people burnt to death. Well, yeah. But that

Dr Rad 1:22:05
was to see the siege equipment wasn't in warfare, per se.

Dr G 1:22:09
I mean, you telling me that saving the siege equipment during an act of war is not somehow part of warfare.

Dr Rad 1:22:15
It's not like actual battley kind of stuff, you know? Oh, in my we're gonna disagree on so much. Before moving on.

Dr G 1:22:26
The second category is diplomacy. Well,

Dr Rad 1:22:29
no, no, definitely no diplomacy anywhere. I mean, okay. If we say internally, I guess the fact that our days

Dr G 1:22:39
I don't think we we've agreed that diplomacy is not an internal. I

Dr Rad 1:22:43
was gonna say, I guess if you were saying internal, there's like, a bit of speechifying going on, but I don't feel like it's particularly diplomatic, because it's Appius. Claudius, you

Dr G 1:22:51
know, diplomacy. They don't talk to me. They don't try to talk down the new anonymous King, nothing like that. They don't send more ambassadors. It's no. I don't know what the other six or seven or eight or nine, whatever military tributes are doing. Not talking to anybody being

Dr Rad 1:23:08
scattered. Hide behind a different bush.

Dr G 1:23:13
The category is expansion.

Dr Rad 1:23:15
Yeah.

Dr G 1:23:17
That's a zero. They're trying very hard. But I would love to have a love to have not happening now. The fourth category is weird to us. Okay.

Dr Rad 1:23:29
I really hate to say this strategy, but I feel that by Roman standards, maybe we're seeing a little bit of that from Appius Claudius. You

Dr G 1:23:38
think so? I mean, he's doing some pretty big speechifying. It's not military, though. We haven't really seen that for a while, but it's not like he's demonstrating classic Roman manliness.

Dr Rad 1:23:50
I suppose. That's true. I guess he's just just playing classic Roman douchebaggery. I was mistaken. Yeah. You know, the

Dr G 1:23:59
classic blinds, issue. Yeah, sort of focus on whatever.

Dr Rad 1:24:04
He's rhetoric is impressive. But yeah, I don't know. I agree with you. It's not perhaps that impassioned. And it's

Dr G 1:24:10
not like he sort of calls forth the idea of Roman masculinity being on the line here either. Like,

Dr Rad 1:24:17
you know, he does talk about you know, like the masculinity of the soldiers. Yeah, you know, like being put into question how they feel if you feel like you're calling them a Blissey. I kind of like it. Well,

Dr G 1:24:29
that's true. Yeah. But is it manly to call another Roman on manly? Well,

Dr Rad 1:24:35
no, he's I think he's I think they are. He's suggesting that they are indeed, but that the tribunes are implying that they are somehow not man enough to take a by saying that they can't hack it in the winter that they're too, too pricy to hang out in some proper winter quarters.

Dr G 1:24:52
I think where we might see what we're tourists, aside from potential for obvious quarters because I feel like that's kind of it is a bit which is we Yeah, it's the equestrians coming along and volunteering with their own horses. Oh, yeah. And then and then the plebeians coming along. Not to be outdone by that, yeah. Volunteering into a situation where clearly there's been a lot of tension about having people out there.

Dr Rad 1:25:16
What else would make the senators shed a tear?

Dr G 1:25:18
Virtus to us coming from below.

Dr Rad 1:25:22
Sounds raunchy?

Dr G 1:25:25
Is that your weird jokes? are you just happy to see?

Dr Rad 1:25:30
Because if I'm a very man, I get turned on by that. All right.

Dr G 1:25:33
I think that's definitely okay. Yeah, for sure. And maybe potentially higher, because we don't have to Yeah, this is the moment that seems to bring a very specific class of equestrians out, that we've never really encountered before.

Dr Rad 1:25:49
That's right. The equestrians who are technically part of that order, but have their own horses but the state don't pay for them yet, but they will pay for them after

Dr G 1:25:55
this. That club that club. Yeah, very specific club.

Dr Rad 1:25:59
It's very exclusive. Maybe

Dr G 1:26:00
a sixth.

Dr Rad 1:26:01
Okay. All right. And

Dr G 1:26:03
our final category is the citizens score. I

Dr Rad 1:26:07
am so torn on it.

Dr G 1:26:08
It's a tough time. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:26:09
they are so clearly being manipulated, again. And they seem to be standing up for themselves at first. And we do have some good Tribune action happening here like the tribunes make some solid points. Mostly, I told you so. But the fact that they are nameless, we don't even know how many there are. They're not given a direct speech.

Dr G 1:26:29
And also, their points become completely ineffectual. Yeah, exactly.

Dr Rad 1:26:33
As soon as things start to turn at bay, people are just too concerned about what's happening.

Dr G 1:26:40
So it's not great, because, yes, there is the potential for pay. It has been suggested that that's about to continue for the overwintering. But on the other hand, this seizure is not going well so far. And a whole bunch of them seem to have died trying to save the siege equipment in unruly fire, and

Dr Rad 1:26:56
the rest of them have gone off to serve, which okay, yes, they're getting paid. But they could be stuck there for a while. We don't know how long are they going to be there

Dr G 1:27:04
also the orphan tax, not great.

Dr Rad 1:27:08
sorrowfully.

Dr G 1:27:10
And also being told that you just have to remarry all the time. Just keep going, guys. I mean, by why a modern standard that's a bit harsh by Roman standard, that's probably people are like, they're like, Oh, well, I kind of expected that. But

Dr Rad 1:27:23
it's really just legislating what people expected of you anyway. Yes,

Dr G 1:27:26
yeah. Annoying. But yeah, that will Yeah. Oh,

Dr Rad 1:27:29
wow. Okay, so I feel like it's maybe a one because the tribunes tried. Oh, yeah. And that's, that's all that happened. Yeah. Well, let's face it, the plebeians ,bless their little cotton socks, which hopefully they're wearing in their winter quarters under their sandals. They seem very happy to be part of this movement to dedicate themselves in this way. You know, they seem to have been completely won over by everything's happening, the atmosphere, the vibe, if you will. So I feel like they're kind of happy. Even sickly that they shouldn't.

Dr G 1:28:08
As long as they're happy. We cannot judge them for their own happy. Exactly.

Dr Rad 1:28:11
Yeah. So Look, I feel like it has to be a one. Yeah,

Dr G 1:28:14
I don't think that condition is great. So what it is all right.

Dr Rad 1:28:18
That's me instructed me that we have a grand total of 11, which I actually I was expecting more honestly, just goes to show rhetoric it blindsides you, I thought it was going to be much higher, but turns out when all you have is a winker going on and on and on about conservative values. Don't get high scores.

Dr G 1:28:38
Yeah, Look, I'm like can it be a high school when there's an obvious Claudius in the mix?

Dr Rad 1:28:44
But you know, and I am pleased about the fact that I am switching douchebag for wanker occasionally now. That's new. That's gonna be a new feature. Yeah,

Dr G 1:28:52
yeah, Look, I mean, it's been a decade it's time to introduce the

Dr Rad 1:28:57
new century is looming. Oh. Well, thank you very much for tolerating.Appius Claudius' speech

Dr Rad: Thank you for listening to this special episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes at www.partialhistorians.com. Music by Bettina joy de Guzman.

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We are thrilled to sit down with Neil, The Ancient Blogger and host of the Ancient History Hound podcast to explore space and place in the Roman regal period.

Neil, or ancientblogger as he's more commonly known, studied ancient history at degree level and then completed an MA in Classical Civilisation. Though he has a full time job he spends most of his time creating content on  Instagram, X, YouTube and TikTok – just search for ancientblogger. He also has a website ancientblogger.com and several years ago started what is now the Ancient History Hound podcast, where he covers a wide array of topics from ancient history.

He also gets the chance to volunteer at schools around Brighton where he helps students with Greece and Rome, the latter usually whilst  wearing his legionary armour. As his website states – he's all about ancient history and passionate about making the topic accessible to one and all.”

Special Episode – Exploring Place in Regal Rome with Neil, The Ancient Blogger – Part 1

Neil seems to have found himself in a museum of ancient vases while wearing a tshirt of ancient vases!

What was the landscape of regal Rome like?

There's no doubt that the topography of ancient Rome was very different to what we are able to see today. With the restraints around archaeological work you can expect in a city that is still as important and vibrant as the capital of Italy, it is partly through evidence on the ground and partly through reading the ancient sources that we can come to grips with what ancient Rome may have been like in its very early iterations.

The Palatine and the Aventine

Neil takes us through the importance of hills in general, in Italy, and for Rome in particular. Romulus has a connection with the Palatine hill and Remus is connected with the Aventine. Neil delves into the details of the wolves in this area including the development of the Lupercalia rites and the significance attached to blood sacrifice in cultivating the meaning of place.

The early pomerium

How did it the sacred boundary of Rome work? Where was it? What were the implications for trying to cross it with early armies? None of these questions can be answered definitely because evidence is thin on the ground archaeologically speaking, but considering later written sources offers some ways into the topic. Looking to read more on this topic, consider Koortbojian, M. 2020. Crossing the Pomerium: The Boundaries of Political, Religious, and Military Institutions from Caesar to Constantine (Princeton University Press)

The Campus Martius

The campus Martius ‘Field of Mars’ was the site of the potential murder of Romulus, Rome’s first king. The area covers a fair amount of land next to the Tiber and we consider some of its historical details.

The Tarpeian Rock

Bound up with the early defence of Rome is the Capitoline Hill where the earliest defences of the city were thought to have been built. We explore the stories that the Romans told about how the rock got its name. This leads into a consideration of how death was treated in respect to place.

The First Bridge over the Tiber

The Pons Sublicius was the first bridge recorded to cross the Tiber. Not only was the bridge of strategic importance, but it was also connection with rituals. Neil takes us through some of the geographical features of the Tiber and how understanding the ancient river is quite a different proposition to understanding the Tiber as it can be observed today.

The Janiculum and the Caelian

The importance of the Janiculum being on the far side of the Tiber as far as the Romans are concerned and the etymological possibilities for the names of some of the hills. The Caelian hill is often overlooked, but maybe it needs to find its spotlight especially for its connection to Numa, the second king.

Things to listen out for:

• The Oracle at Dodona
• Pallantium in Arcadia (Greece) and Evander
• Zeus Xenia and Lyacon
• The cultural significance of place and the development of the sacred
• The sacrifice of Iphigenia
• The clock face approach to understanding where the ancient hills of Rome were
• Hercules and Cacus the Giant
• Aelius Gellius’ Attic Nights
• Miasma, the Ancient Greek understanding of pollution
• Quintilian on the Tarpeian Rock
• Horatius Cocles
• The brontoscopic calendar of the Etruscans

Sound Credits

Our theme music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Map of ancient Rome showing the theorised extent of the Servian Walls built by Rome's sixth king.
The various hills and significant gates (porta) are also indicated. Note that the Janiculum is on the far side of the Tiber from Rome proper. Source Flickr.

Automated Transcript

Automated transcript lightly edited for our wonderful accents and the tricky terms in Latin!

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:30
And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 1:03
Hello, and welcome to this special episode of the partial historians. I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:10
And I am Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:13
And we are super thrilled to be joined by a special guest today. Welcome, Neil.

Neil – History Hound 1:21
Hello, thanks very much for having me on and call me special, which is something I haven't heard for years.

Dr G 1:27
We meant it in a good way.

Neil – History Hound 1:28
Oh I'm sure it was.

Dr G 1:31
So Neil holds a MA in classics and history from Birkbeck, University of London, and is the founder of the popular Ancient Blogger website. And for the last six years, he has also been the host of the Ancient History Hound podcast. So Neil has experience in ancient Roman reenactment. And yes, he does own a suit of legionary armor, we're so glad you've already asked. And he also engages in school outreach programs, bringing the ancient Roman world to life for the next generation. And we're super thrilled to be sitting down and talking today about a little bit of typography when it comes to ancient Rome, and thinking about exploring place, and particularly going right back into the Regal period of ancient Rome to do it. So welcome, Neil.

Neil – History Hound 2:23
Thank you. Yeah. Just on that, yeah. It's great to be able to go out and visit schools and do some volunteering work at schools wearing Roman armor. My back does not forgive me. Oh, it's, it's great fun. And it does make a difference. Because sometimes, I think if you introduce history, ancient history, to new people in a different way, that whatever age, I think it disrupts some preconceptions, because one of the questions I've asked, I asked, when I've had guests on my podcast, how did you get into ancient history? And for the most part, people tend to think, Oh, I was translating Cicero at the age of five on my father's knee. The reality is, I think, I think the one of my guests that she said that it was because she watched ‘The Mummy'. And it can be it can be stuff like that. So it's so important that people realize that it's somewhat the sometimes the incidental actions and events in your life that can lead you to becoming really fascinated by a particular subject. And so yeah, so it's good to be able to try and help with that. This is my only my second time I think I've ever been on a podcast that first time was right at the beginning. So I hope I'm a I'm a good guest. Anyway. So thanks again.

Dr Rad 3:33
Well, we're predisposed to like you is to teachers, I think it's very admirable that you are volunteering your time in such a way.

Dr G 3:41
Yes, I really hang out with children when they pay me.

Neil – History Hound 3:44
The I got to be honest with you, I don't know how the teachers do it. I always say that to them. But I get bossed around by a bunch of kids for the best part of sort of three hours or so. I've got I'm visiting a school in a couple of weeks. And we've got to the invasion of Britain for a bunch of nine year olds, which is easy and difficult, because there's some really interesting stuff there. But at the same time, it's quite difficult because you want to avoid the gruesome things, which is fundamental to what the Roman army did. So it's talking about other areas, and also try and develop extension exercises and things that different kids will do, generally trying to spread the enjoyment of the subject. And that's something I've always tried to do through my podcasts and everything else is just trying to get people who haven't necessarily come across the topic interested in the topic, and they can feel like an input because after all, ancient history is about people. And we sometimes forget that there. We have our basic emotions, and they would have been exactly the same in antiquity. People got up in the morning, they got worried about their jobs people had, you know, loves their breakups and everything else. And I'm just finishing on that there was an episode. I'm not gonna keep plugging my episode, by the way, but I went I just went I went through the oracle at Dodona. They found a bunch of lead sheets and the where people had written down their questions. And the questions, generally speaking, though, came from all sections of society, including women, which is great, because we don't have a great deal about that kind of information. But it was questions such as did, should I get a new job? Should I change my career? Should I move? Should one of them we should have an affair? There was quite a lot of can I? Who do I pray to to make my kids better? But these were genuine questions that people have today. So again, it's about trying to tie in what was ancient or what is modern and sort of shortening the distance between the two? So yeah, there we go. Anyway, we'll be we'll be talking about, as he said, about Rome, early Rome, about the typography and how important the typography was, and some of the spaces and areas in that and some of the discussions we can probably have that might throw a different perspective on things. So yep, looking forward to I've got my notes, and I'd be doing lots of research. So fingers crossed.

Dr G 5:54
Excellent, excellent. Well, we're pretty excited to explore this topic. Because as you know, we wrote a book recently on the Roman kings, and we're really focused on the human character side of it. So very much like you were saying, engaging with school children and bringing that curiosity to the subject. It's the people factor that really drives a lot of the work that we do as well. And so I think taking this different geographic angle is really interesting way to think about the whole thing from a totally different perspective. So one of the things that stands out when you think about Rome, and usually something that people tend to know about Roman geography, if they know anything at all, is that it's got seven hills. This is apparently a very special number gets bandied about a lot. But in the traditional foundation story, we have Romulus and Remus, and they start on different hills. And there are only two guys, one of them set up on the Palatine Hill, and one of them set up on the Aventine Hill. And I'm interested in what might be the significance of these two locations? And what could we know about them in this really early period, if anything at all.

Neil – History Hound 7:06
A great start, great place to start. Just before I go any further, I should say I bought your book downloaded onto my Kindle and loved it, it was very, very good. So if anyone's listening out there, this is not a promo, this is a genuine review, I really enjoyed it, because it does that thing of engaging people. It's got some really interesting stories in there. And it's got some interesting questions as well, which I think you should always be able to take away from a book. Before I start on the whole seven hills thing. I want to just cover a few basics about that, because people always think of hills and Rome, but not necessarily in the context of the causality and the importance of them. So to start with having hills was generally a good idea, because hills mean hillside forts, or hill forts, which means you've got a very good defensive position. That was a really popular thing. At that time the Etruscans are on it, you can pretty much go anywhere around the Mediterranean people like higher places because they're easy to defend. You can stick a wall around them, you can stick the important buildings in there, hey, presto, life is good. Where it becomes even more interesting and significant for Rome, or the area which became Rome is the actual location of Rome, because Rome is in Rome, it is at a affordable part of what you could fold the river Tiber around Rome. Why is that important? Well, if you think of the Italian peninsula, the Italian peninsula is quite narrow. It's around 180 kilometers, which is about 111 miles. I did a bit of working this out. And apparently that's the distance from Sydney to Mollymook. And it's also the distance from-

Dr Rad 8:39
Wow, thank you for the local reference.

Neil – History Hound 8:41
That's right. Yeah, I looked it up. And I always liked spending time on maps. And it's also if you're in Chicago, that's a distance from Chicago to Lafayette. So it's that it's quite narrow. And the problem or advantage the Italian peninsula has is down the center of that you've got the Appenine Mountains. So generally speaking, if you're traveling up and down Italy, you either do it on the eastern coast, or you do on the western coast, if you're doing on the western coast. At some point, you will have to pass and and traverse as it were the Tiber River. So just to just come back to it all. You've got a set of defensive positions right next to an incredibly strategic, important location. On that side on the western side of the app and ions. This is a great place. People sometimes ask why did Rome develop? Well, it developed for a number of reasons, and it achieved what it did for a number of reasons. But these were all fundamentally underpinned by the fact of where it was at this great starting location. And if anyone's listening who has ever played Civilization, the computer game…

Dr G 9:41
I was gonna say I was just having a Civ 6 moment.

Neil – History Hound 9:45
This is this is the ideal start position. This is riverside, plains, hills, your part is great. You've even in theory got some salt then nearby, which just makes yeah, the ears will be picking up for anyone who plays civilization on any of the versions. It's just a great start position. So that was really important. And we'll come shortly to the whole issue of the Tiber and how that changed and shifted, because that's really important to understand with early Rome. So you've got these these two hills, you've got the Aventine and the Palatine. So we start with the with the Palatine. The Palatine is very interesting in the way that it's handled. mythologically speaking, because it seems to have a prequel because it's linked to a number of events that happen prior to Romulus and Remus. But it also stitches in nicely with certain points in their lives. It stitches in with sort of Rites of Passage, which I'll get to shortly. So what you have, apparently, according to I think it's both Dionysus Halicarnassus and Livy. They both refer to Pallantium. Pallantium was a city or a small settlement whatnot, in Arcadia in central Greece, and it said that originally, Evander and some other Greeks came over, and they settled there. And I completely agree with the point you made in your book, Dionysius of Halicarnassus sees Greeks everywhere. He just did to him everything is greek.

Dr Rad 11:05
I see Greek people…

Neil – History Hound 11:07
Yeah, totally. Totally. He's, everything is great. Yeah, they just did it with a different language a bit later on. And in Pallantium, you have this initial settlement. Now that ties into Pallantium and Arcadia. Why is that interesting? It's interesting because Arcadia in the Peloponnese was an odd place. And it had some odd characters, even by the standards of Greek myth. One of them was King Lycaon. Now, people might have heard of him. King like Rome was famous because he did that one thing that you should rarely never ever do. And that's try it on with a God. He invites Zeus round for lunch, and to test if he's really that clever, he feeds in human flesh, which is just the more I mean, if you think that's a bad idea, just a map, just remember that Zeus was Zeus Xenia was an aspect of Zeus whereby he was the god of good good guests and hosts. So incredible amount of importance was based on being a good guest and a good host, presumably serving them human human flesh, bad idea that somewhat sort of crosses the line a bit, and you're doing it with a God who is in charge of that particular element. Zeus does not take this well, as you might imagine, changes him into a wolf. Now on Mount Lycaon, which is in Arcadia you had as an altar to Zeus, which was an a very long ash altar. And there were lots of things said about it. Without trying to go on a tangent. If you've ever listened to episodes on any podcast I've done by myself on werewolves, and werewolf myth. That is the that is the point that you always arrive at because people say, well, that's where you had some sort of wolf based ritual. Now tying that back in, why is that? Why do you tie that in with with Rome? Well, it's not necessarily just a tangent. It's because Rome obviously itself has some form of wolf cult, it has a wolf association, and in fact, I think it's living again who says that Lupercalia the festival where men would run around naked and hit people with goat hide thongs originated from the Lupercal, the cave of the wolf on the Aventine. And in fact, there's the Lupercalia is a very interesting festival because it seems to be one that existed prior to Romulus and Remus. It probably had them both of them grafted on to it. It has two functions. It seems to be a lustral rite, that is a purification, rite. But it also has some sort of fertility basics to it. So it was one of these, one of these things that by the first century BC/AD, people are trying to work out what it may have looked like but the reality is, like many Roman things, including the Saturnalia, for example, it started out in something very different, and ended up with something quite, quite divorced or estranged from its origin, shall we say? And yeah, so you've got this right before Romulus and Remus rock up. When they do. That's where they, they end up as babies. They're washed up there in their basket, which was a bit of a trope in antiquity, and also speaks to the point of flooding in ancient Rome, which again, is an important thing that we'll come to. It's also the place where they have their auguries, so you may have heard of the story where Remus goes the Aventine and sports has many eagles he can. Romulus does it on the Palatine, he spots more he wins, he gets to found Rome, it's possibly the location as well of where Remus is killed. What is interesting is there are a number of different myths. We have different versions for it. We have the version where it's just a straight out fight, because the two brothers are just not going to go on mainly because they're brothers and that's what brothers tend to do, though probably not that extreme. But also because their Romans and Romans were very good at civil war. They were very good at infighting and again, we have to remember that many of these myths have been created and worked on in the later periods or several centuries afterwards. We have Fabius Pictor at the end of the third century BC as the first acknowledged Roman historian who's writing in Greek. And then you have Livy's and Dionysius of Halicarnassus writing centuries after that. So the reality is they're getting to a point where they're trying to work everything out retrospectively, and they're seeing what what works for them in the modern world. Rome was a place of a lot of inner tension. And we have a lot of civil wars. So of course, it made sense that brothers would fall out and perhaps that would lead to a very nasty end. So there's a fight there, where Remus ends up, ends up it ends very badly for him. But there's also an element there of and this is something I'd like to check in with with either of your good selves of the pomerium, of this sacred boundary, because it's one of those things that sometimes it's a bit of an overreaction. Romulus killed his brother, because he jumped over his wall. And he mocked his foundations when I've been around. I've been round to relatives' new conservatory. I wasn't that impressed? I was not that impressed with it. But they didn't murder me. And so why is that? Why, why did you have this extreme reaction? And I think the thing is, we don't get the context. So foundations, particularly those associated walls had a sacred element to them. You didn't, You didn't mock them, it was it would be the equivalent mean there is no great equivalence, but perhaps it would be going to a cultural location where you just considered it on its as a physical presence. So for example, going to Uluru and just go and ask just a sandstone feature without realizing that that is Uluru. That's that's much more than what it is. Perhaps, I was thinking of the Statue of Liberty, you know, that's just a statue. But you don't get the cultural connotations, or the cultural connotations around those around that wall around that area. What's that it was incredibly important. And so by Remus mocking it and jumping over, it was committing a real crime, which, you know, instigated that response from Romulus, in that context, it doesn't sound too bad, again, extreme, but Romanus, as well, as you'll find, as you well know, wasn't, wasn't the most temperate of individuals, he often reacted-

Dr G 16:57
He was not a chill dude, Not a chill guy at all.

Neil – History Hound 17:00
But bearing in mind how he grown up, I mean, his entire existence, and the myth prior to them, it's basically family members falling out and hurting each other in various ways. So again, this sits within this whole myth of, if you've got a relative, it's gonna go Game of Thrones at some point, it's as simple as just a case of when rather than if. And yeah, so we have that there's also and something I always go to, and I, I apologize for this, because I got obsessed with human sacrifice after doing an episode on it. Not so much obsessed. Actually, that's probably that might get that

Dr G 17:30
That doesn't sound like a great way to phrase it.

Dr Rad 17:34
I was gonna say, Yeah, I'd stop, right there.

Neil – History Hound 17:36
Yeah, yeah, probably need to rephrase that. The, I found when I started looking and researching it, I saw it occurring more. Now, it occurs a lot in Greek myth, but they try and tidy it up. Great example, is Iphigenia, who's stolen away by Artemis, when she said to be sacrificed, and that was the idea of substitute sacrifice. So, you know, the Greeks do a kind of a good job of tidying up, though, occasionally leave it right in the open and just move on, such as Achilles in the Iliad, where he gets rid of the Trojan princess, and where Achilles is involved in the sacrifice of effort, you know, at the beginning, and where Achilles' involved in the sacrifice of Polyxena at the end of the Trojan War. So Achilles, yeah, he wasn't he wasn't particularly nice, or he had that element to him. But there is something of an argument to talk about how Remus dying is almost an essential requirement. Now, you can move that out into a conversation about how sometimes when cities were established large settlements, there is an argument that someone was ceremonially sacrificed to ensure the health of it, particularly around walls, Particularly around those liminal spaces. But I don't want to go into that too much, because I'm not entirely comfortable with the research on that I'm not that well acquainted to it. But when you look at the myth, and obviously, this is where I move fully within the realm of your respective expertise on this, the founding of the of the Republic, well, that was bloodshed that was that you have the death of Lucretia. You also have the death of Brutus' sons, you have these sort of repeated actions of if you're going to find something big, if you're gonna have this big, big setup, it requires a great cost. And that great cost can often be an individual being killed or being moved on as it were. So I think that's an important thing to notice about the Palatine. But there's also a good one Plutarch, Plutarch, it gives a more sort of amusing, and I wouldn't say he's throwing a bit shade but Remus gets annoyed at Romulus because he thinks he's cheated.

Dr G 19:38
I love that version of the story. That's my favorite one.

Dr Rad 19:41
I say I guess. Make sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Neil – History Hound 19:46
Yeah, it's a bit of a strange competition. It's like me going right? That we're going to win a car. The three of us gonna win a car, you just got to think of the highest number, but we'll say in order and I get to go last. I'm not saying one. I'm just gonna say the highest and yeah, so it's also interesting as vultures will often we have associations of eagle with ancient Rome, particularly with Tarquin when he gets his cap snatched by an eagle. But these were vultures, which again, is it? People may not know that much, but a trivia impress your friends stand stand your relatives. So we have that the so that's where we come to the Palatine. It was obviously pretty much where Rome is founded, and it becomes an incredibly important location. And before I go to the Aventine. Have I missed anything on that you think? Or is there anything?

Dr G 20:33
No I don't think so. I think there's something quite interesting about the idea of the blood sacrifice as a necessity, in terms of like establishing a sacral border. And what that means for other rituals that the Romans then participate in later on, for sure. And I think this extended narrative that has a way of connecting Rome back to Greece is something that Greeks across the ancient world would be very keen about, for sure.

Neil – History Hound 21:09
Yeah. Yeah, it's very difficult to really understand Rome without considering it through the filter of Greece and the Mediterranean was a real cultural melting pot, people were constantly exchanging ideas, cultures, you had Greeks in the south of Italy, and Magna Grecia, the Etruscans, who were heavily influential on Rome, big Greek fans. In fact, if you're, I guarantee, if you're listening to this, and you have a favorite Greek vase, the chances are, it was found in an Etruscan tomb. That's why it survived.

Dr G 21:37
They did love that stuff. It's everywhere there.

Neil – History Hound 21:39
Yeah, when I, when I first started studying I just studied all those years ago, I couldn't get my head around it: But this is an Attic vase, but it was found … what the heck was going to be? How did that work? And obviously, there's cultural transmission. But the stuff in Athens didn't necessarily survive as much. Or rather, if you're looking for, for an object to survive, you need to it needs to be in a tomb or somewhere away from everyone for a long time, and hopefully, dodge tomb robbers, and hopefully gets excavated, and it's still there in one piece. So the other thing about the Palatine is, when you're looking at the topography of Rome, it's quite important to understand where the hills were. Now I'm going to do a really basic thought experiment here, which is either going to fail or do well. You could see the looks on your faces. So when you think of the hills of Rome, the way that I try and do it is a clock face. And sort of, if you think at 12 o'clock, and going up north, you've got the field of Mars, that kind of thing. In the center of the clock face, you've got the Tiber which winds round from around 11 o'clock disappears around seven o'clock, and intersects with the Forum Boarium, which that's the main crossing point into Rome. At nine o'clock, you've got the Janiculum Hill, at six o'clock, you've got the the Aventine. And then you've kind of got that the Palatine just to the center just to the right sort of three o'clock ish, if you think of it like that. So if you're on the Palatine Hill, the Palatine Hill strategically is really important because you're right dead center on that crossing. So again, it is the most one of the most important hills, I mean, the Capitoline Hill is close as well. So is the Aventine Hill, they're not going to the Janiculum. These are not far from that that crossing. But if you're going to choose one first, you'd probably choose the Palatine Hill as being that initial place that you'd want to be. So again, we need to tie this in the myths into the sort of pragmatism of it all. Now I'm going to move to the Aventine. The Aventine Hill is interesting, mainly because it will it has an association with an unnecessary it's known right, so feel free to laugh with Cacus or Cacus, the giant who Hercules fights, and it's associated with him because again, you have a Hercules at Rome quite early on was certainly prior to Romulus and Remus. It also became a bit of a staging post, it became an emptying this is where people settle the Latins who were defeated on the anchors the third, fourth, fourth Roman king was given mixed up, a settles in there because he can't stop them anywhere else. So it's sort of a bit of a staging post overspill, that's where people are going to go and live. But the weirdest thing I found out about this when I there was something I hadn't realized. And again, I'm gonna defer to your expertise on this until the reign of Claudius in the first century AD. It was outside of the City's pomerium. This was not inside this, it was in there's discussion, it might have been enclosed by walls, but it wasn't inside the pomerium. And could you just for a moment just given because I've tried to find good definitions of what the pomerium was, but you able to just distill that if you can?

Dr G 24:48
Yeah, so the pomerium is, because it's the sacral boundary, it is marked out physically in certain ways. But it is is not something that is a physical barrier as such, so there's marker points for it. We understand it through archaeological evidence. And in order to shift, it becomes a huge deal, because that would be expanding the sacral boundaries of the city. So that has to be a very deliberate choice. The Romans are fundamentally a highly religious and God fearing people. So they don't make decisions without consulting the gods on any level, it doesn't really matter what it is. Whether it's in your home, whether it's in public, whether it's going to war, the gods have to approve, they need to feel that sense that their relationship is right with the gods. And so the pomerium is both an indication of what is inclusively believed to be part of sacral Rome, versus what is considered to be foreign and outside. So in the worst case scenario, it's not the physical walls of Rome that ultimately need to be upheld and defended, although they're very important, but it's making sure that that sacral boundary is never violated. So having the Aventine outside of that for a very long time, is conducive to the sorts of things that you're saying in terms of people coming into Rome, when they're slightly foreign. And they're considered to be migrant populations, they settle in the Aventine, because they're allowed to be there. And they're allowed to worship their own gods there without any problems. As soon as they cross that sacral boundary, it becomes an issue. You can't have foreign gods inside the pomerium. So everything to do with a multicultural life, which Rome increasingly becomes known for is going to be happening at those bleeding edges around the outside of the pomerium. And so having the Aventine outside of that for a long time super useful and will become super useful for the Struggle of the Orders. And I'm using my flash rabbits.

Dr Rad 26:57
I was I was going to say I remember thinking about this when we were talking about the second secession, the Aventine as a place in that particular narrative where there'll be an answer like, “You know what, screw you guys, we're not going to be proud of this thing anymore,” became important.

Dr G 27:13
“We're just gonna leave this whole town!”

Dr Rad 27:16
“We're just gonna leave and we're going to go to the Aventine,” Yeah.

Dr G 27:19
Yeah, “This is not Rome anymore. The Aventine is its own place, thank you very much.”

Dr Rad 27:27
“Yeah, it's its own thing. It's got different vibes, guys.”

Neil – History Hound 27:31
I live in Brighton. And there's a bit of a thing with Brighton because it's alongside Hove. And I know if you've you might have heard of this. But there's a sort of thing where people, whenever they say, Oh, you live in Brighton people would always say I actually, Hove actually. And “Hove, actually” became its own little thing. It got printed on T shirts. And I didn't grow up. I didn't grow up in Brighton, so I'm not aware of it all that much. But when I first started to talk to people, where do you live? Well I live in Brighton but I actually live in Hove. But I'm not saying that to be that person who's “Actually, Hove,” you know, that sort of thing. So we should get “Aventine, actually” T shirts. There we go.

Dr G 28:08
Yeah, probably!

Neil – History Hound 28:10
The idea of and I did a bit of obviously digging to work out why this might be so why wasn't wasn't included. And the general consensus in the sources seems to be no one actually knew. But they had some ideas. And there was a sort of historian who wrote called Aulus Gellius who write “Attic Nights”, which sounds like sounds like saying you find on Netflix and not know if she'd watch in front of your parents. I don't know. It's not quite sure when there's and he said he wasn't sure he said there are a number of reasons however, he quoted Messala who was a consul back in 53 BC, and apparently according to Messala he said that it was because of ill owned birds. The point of when that augury was taken.

Dr G 28:52
Right from the beginning Remus was wrong.

Neil – History Hound 28:55
Yeah, it was it was abandoned, and the whole hill that he did, and somehow that that had some association with it. But there is probably a more practical reason for this. And for this, I need to go back to that clock face I did earlier. So as you remember, you've got Field of Mars around 12 o'clock. And then you've got around nine o'clock, you've got the Tiber, and then you've got the Aventine at around sort of six o'clock. Now, when it came to moving troops around the field of Mars was where you marshal troops early on in Rome. At that point, Rome was obviously conducting military activities in a number of locations, but a lot to the south. If you take your soldiers from that point south, you face a big problem. Because if you have to cross the pomerium, as I understand it, and again, this is this is something I'm not entirely aware of. You've got to do a bunch of sacrifices and general rituals to cross over the pomerium. So you'd be it's a bit like when I suppose in some cities where you have a zone where you have to you can't you know, drive between these certain hours or whatnot or your car needs to be this type of setup or perhaps it's just pedestrianized, so you need to cross it, you'd be crossing it twice. And that could really forestall an army because it could take time. However, if the Aventine wasn't in the pomerium, then you can kind of take your men down the side of the eastern bank of the Tiber. And they don't have to worry about that. And they don't want to go the other routes because the two other routes from the Field of Mars if there was a pomerium immediately to the South would mean well, you've got across the Tiber, well, you can't cross the Tiber south, you've got to go all the way north and finding a decent crossing point. If you want to go east you've got to loop north and east around the hills. It that that when you're moving a large number of individuals, and again the logistics the Roman army is always an interesting thing, perhaps more so than what they actually did. On the battlefield though (I never said that). You move the slowest move the slowest thing in your army is the fastest you move. And often this will oxen, oxen, don't sprint, they don't move very quick. So you could lose a good day or two just making that progression, albeit if you have to cross the pomerium. If the pomerium isn't to the south, you've got easy dibs going. It's much easier to move troops. So why does Claudius do it? Well, apparently Claudius does it for a couple of reasons. Primarily because he's so amazing and he's expanded the Empire. Also it doesn't really matter it no one apparently really was that bothered by it. Because Rome at that time if you're an army you weren't stationed at Rome you weren't station really near Rome, you were stationed on the on the borders. So it didn't really have that same impact in terms of army and I think it's one of those things he he has his his big thing that he does or a big thing and everyone's like Yeah, cheers. Thanks for that. Yeah

Dr G 31:31
Whoooo

Dr Rad 31:34
New area code – yay

Neil – History Hound 31:36
Yeah, a really sad kind of a sad popper everything goes up in the background. And it's kind of just yeah, thanks for that. So yeah, so that's, that's primarily the to the to hills, or rather, that's the Aventine and that the Palatine. And it's interesting to see how I wouldn't say they necessarily take on the characteristics of their, of their forbearers, as it were, but there is something there to them. One is associated with everything about Rome, and how great it was. The other one is, yeah, well, and he's a bit weird. It's a sort of a black sheep of the Roman hills.

Dr Rad 32:11
I like that idea. So this is actually a good segue for us because we were going to ask you a bit about something to do with Romulus and to do potentially with troops and that sort of thing. So as you know, Romulus seems to come to a sticky end on the Campus Martius. So let's think about how the Romans might have understood Romulus as connection to this place and his legacy later on, because as you as you've already hinted at, the Romans are kind of trying to sometimes fit pieces together retrospectively.

Neil – History Hound 32:46
Yeah, it's really difficult as well, I think this is why I find the story of love the kings of the Regal period, so fascinating. Because it's a big disaster movie. That's what it is. It doesn't you know, it's not going well, you know, what's going to happen? They're not getting off the plane, it's, that's what's gonna happen. It's just how are they not gonna get off the plane? And sorry, if that sounded tasteless, by the way, but if you're gonna, if you're gonna put it within the context of modern day disaster movies, that kind of thing, this doesn't end well. And it's weird, because you have this internal tension in the narrative of isn't Rome, fantastic? Wasn't it founded, by the way, it's amazing. But also, it's not very good, because it ends really badly, because the thing that starts at all is ultimately a very bad thing, come come the seventh King. I mean, even if you make a good case for Servilius, the sixth king, he he's he does things, but he still acts in a sort of pseudo dictator fashion at points, because he does cheat the system. He doesn't have the proper elections and the interregnum and whatnot. It's just because everyone likes him that it's okay. So if you look at it from that the process is pretty broken by that point, in terms of how you elect a monarch, and what the monitor should be doing. And the idea of supreme power, and how it's wielded becomes a, you know, an issue, then it's not always just that when it's with the bad guys, and particularly the seventh King, it's more obvious because you were automatically not liking him. But it's one of those things that if your friends doing something that isn't morally good, you can be a bit more forgiving. But obviously, if somebody don't like doing it, well, then you're going to be entirely damaged. And I think that's that's what you have here. So it's interesting with a narrative of how how we move across with Romulus, and then you mentioned the Field of Mars, I find it and I again, it's laugh out loud funny when you hear the story of how he goes missing in the Field of Mars or alternatively is hacked to pieces depending on which you think's more likely, given that it's Rome, or we have Rome, where you never have political violence where it's always everyone's really happy with each other. And then afterwards, you have that senator appearing and telling the masses who are a bit worried about it. Don't worry, the ghost of Romulus appeared to me just mean no one else and told me don't worry, everyone, it's all good. Life is good. Don't kick up a fuss I've gone now be happy and that's it. But in terms of the actual location itself, nothing much happens. The Field of Mars in terms of have been developed until the late Republican period, simply because it's this big, marshy land, it's got lots of mosquitoes, very difficult to drain. And it's also useful. It's a useful kind of area where no one really knows what to do with it. Because you can have horse riding events there. They have some, they have a festival called the October Horse, which comes in later, I think, I don't think we can really date it to this period. But that that's linked to sort of horse races, and it doesn't enter work too well, to the winning horse. I should add, so I won't go much further than that. But in either case, it's a space that I think you've you've you said about how the promotion was important. This is outside so you can kind of anything, anything goes that you can get up to stuff.

Dr G 35:44
Oooo you can get away with hacking someone.

Neil – History Hound 35:45
Yeah, yeah. In theory, allegedly, allegedly, though, he know, he went up to heavens in a storm, because that's what you do. And I also found it interesting, because I think there and I haven't been able to get into going into this, but that's where you have the Theatre of Pompey, which is where Caesar met his end. So I think again, if someone listen to this, and they're tutting, I apologize. I didn't get a chance to look into this too much. But I know obviously, Caesar assassinated in the Pompey's Theatre, and I think that's where Pompey's Theatre was based. So if so you have two distinct events in Romans history where a a person in charge meets a rather unfortunate end, both in the Field of Mars. And it's also the only other thing that I can think of or found within the Regal period is it seems to have been the property of the seventh Quinctius Tarquinius Super-bus. Superbus obviously to have super bus because he's got a cape on.

Dr G 36:41
Superbus, I believe is how the Latin would would take it, but

Dr Rad 36:45
he's always Superbus to us.

Neil – History Hound 36:49
Put a cape on him, he's fine. It that's apparently that's that was his land. And when we're gonna call it Livy says the after he was dealt with, they took it back and dedicated it to Mars. So exactly what he was likely to do with that began perhaps that's, that was his land, perhaps had something to do with the the army perhaps it had something to do with controlling. It's not an area around really needs to develop at that point, certainly within a legal period, they've got more important places, which we'll, we'll speak about in a moment. Yeah. So that's the that's the I think, the Campus Martius or as much as we can, much as I've got anyway to talk about it.

Dr G 37:23
I mean, it's an interesting place, because it does have this famous sort of idea about it as this sort of area where people get together. And it's where a lot of voting happens later on. And things like that be precisely because it's outside the pomerium. But yeah, it's interesting that for the Romans, this idea that people could potentially be murdered, there doesn't necessarily mean that it changes the way that you engage with the space. And perhaps we shouldn't be surprised by something like that. I mean, that's true in the modern world, as well. as horrifying as that is if somebody is murdered in their home, for instance, it's not like the property will stand empty for all time, eventually, somebody will buy it, and it will be used again. So keeping on this sort of topic of violence for a moment, I think it's the Romans, it's not us, that's for sure. There is also the Tarpeian rock, which is this sort of infamous ledge that juts out from the Palatine [correction Capitoline!]. And you can still kind of make it out today, you certainly wouldn't want to be pushed off the top of it, it would definitely hurt. But it We're interested in how it comes to have that name. And this might be a bit of a Dorothy Dixer question, because I love the Tarpeian Rock. But also, why does it become so infamous?

So you just done that thing of asking me a question or a subject you're an expert in and I'm gonna fail horribly. Now. I'm gonna fall from that ledge.

You're not You're not.

Neil – History Hound 38:50
Okay.

Dr Rad 38:50
Not at all.

Dr G 38:53
If you if you get close, we'll catch you don't worry.

Dr Rad 38:56
Yeah, we also wrote that book a while ago. So the details are getting fuzzy.

Neil – History Hound 39:00
Just gesture at me wildly, no one can see. Yeah, when we got the Tarpeian Rock, I think the Capitoline as I think it's as alleged that's it's on the the Capitoline, which is interesting, because where it's located is also near a couple of other places that we're talking about, which are also to do with imprisonment or disposal, as it were. The story goes back and the story is the I mean, when you talk about stories in ancient Rome, and you say that doesn't really add up there a plotholes. The story of Tarpeia is one of the more bizarre ones because it really doesn't add up. So the story goes that you've got the Sabines who've taken the Capitoline Hill, and they've taken the Citadel, this is a really important defensive position. There's lots of problems, and they've done so by being betrayed to the Sabines. And the person who does that is Tarpeia. It depends which version, the myth you read, but she's either the daughter of the main man or who's in charge there, or she, I think, in some instances been referred to as a Vestal. I think that's, that that might be another version of it. And she basically says that she likes what the signs have on the left arms, which are bracelets, golden bracelets. If you give me some of those, I'll let you in. And so it happens. But she is then crushed by the shields because the [leader] Titus Tatius at the time, he's got the best name second best name in the Regal Rome after Mettius Fufetius. Who's who should be in the cast of Cats. I don't know why. But when you read a name, something pops up. I visioned him as some someone from Cats. So yeah, Titus Tatius, he ends up – treats her as a traitor – because she is so betrayed that she doesn't want to pay her also could be because he's not gonna give her the golden arm bracelets. And he's, she then gets sort of crushed by shields, and then that that location takes its name from her traitor, being a traitor. And that's where people who betray their own state and do very, very, very bad things are held from it. What's quite bizarre about this story, even within the context is that there was actually a version which I think Dionysus of Halicarnassus talks about Lucius Piso. And he says, actually, they got it wrong, because she was what she was trying to do was disarm the Sabines. And so she was kind of doing, she was acting as double agent, “I'll let you in, but you just dropped the shields, lever shields, and I'll let you in.” And then she would have presumably then told her father, whoever they were in command, and they would have been able to take out the sidelines easily. But it's a bit it's just a very odd. It's very odd myth by mythic standards, because there's so much internal tension. And there is a history of this sort of thing, in terms of people giving away unfortunately, betraying as it were, and being punished for betrayal, there was an individual forget their name who have betrayed a city to Achilles and she was killed. She was stoned to death because it's a case of well, you betrayed to me it's I can't trust you. So there are these sort of it belongs, I think white to a wider morality, tale of betrayal never ends well, as opposed to anything else. But I think it's also linked to an important point that you make in the book about how women are used, or women appear at really, really important moments within the legal history to make a statement about something or they use to make a statement.

Dr Rad 42:23
Moments of crisis. Yes.

Neil – History Hound 42:26
It can't Yeah, it can't be a man wouldn't betray them. And it had to be a woman who had betrayed and why would a woman betray them? Because of shiny things. And you look at that and just thinking, oh my gosh, it's just really?

Dr G 42:38
Thanks, Rome. Thanks. Yeah, establishing the patriarchy in such a visceral way for us all.

Dr Rad 42:43
It's a real vote of confidence.

Neil – History Hound 42:46
Even even people from 1970s British TV would look at that and go, “Well, that's bit That's a bit harsh. We can't do that. That's, that's, that's too much for us.” It's what the misunderstood heroine aspect, which I think is an important thing. We've also got this concept of bloodless execution. Now, one of the things that that is important, both that Rome and more so I think Greece that that's probably reflects more my study of it is the concept of pollution, miasma. The idea was that if you murdered someone, you are both polluted by the act, and this act could even extend to the objects themselves. In Athens, there was actually a law court that would prosecute objects used in murder. And those there were elsewhere. There's a story of a I believe it's in thesaurus or face us an island where there was a statue of a famous athlete. And it was a bronze statue. And every night, this guy turned up who hated this person, and hit it with sticks. And one day, it falls on him and kills him.

Dr G 43:52
Serves him right, stop hitting it with sticks, man.

Neil – History Hound 43:54
Yeah. There's a sort of it get out sort of, again, I don't know if people thought this might be a very nice reference, but Basil Fawlty, hitting the Mini with the branches. It's kind of a thing, and that they took the statute and got prosecuted by the deceased brother, and he got thrown into the sea. And we know about this because afterwards, they started suffering from various problems, harvest problems. And the Oracle of Delphi said, Well, that's because you need to recall all the exiles, and they recall the exiles, but it still kept happening. And then they said, Well, it's actually the athlete, you need to bring the athlete back. So they had to get fishing nets, go and find the statue and bring it back and stick it back into place. The point is that certain acts were both manifested pollution at Rome, not just and when we think of pollution, we think of it in the modern context, you think of fumes, you think of bloodstains, things like that, but it could be the act itself and having a top end rock, if someone's thrown from it, no one's actually killing you. Which sounds weird because obviously, you know, if I was to push someone off a cliff, I'd be convicted of murder. But the but the way it was seen so differently, it wasn't that you were sticking a sword in someone's head. or doing it in a more up to up close and personal manner. And it's also extended to how the how the Romans would sometimes deal with the defeated enemies that bring in that strangle them. So a lot of the execution What strange and so it What's strange in all of this is that you have the sort of the gladiators, you have the Colosseum and you have before it the Circus Maximus or other locations where you know, bloodshed is absolutely required. But it's a very different context. It's a very different space. So you've got this, this strange thing, and I again, I've got a question about the pomerium for you. Because technically, are you above the pomerium if you've been pushing a rock? So does this act still occur within and that's a thought exercise more anything else? Because there was paper, one paper I read and it suggested that you have these two spaces in Rome where people are disposed of or could be disposed of one of them is the Tarpeian Rock the other one is later becomes the Cacer or Tullianum, which we'll speak about. And in the in the one that's underground, people could be strangled in the one that's above ground people thrown from it. So, again, how does that interact with a pomerium? Because it's not happening on the ground? Is it still? Is it still affecting it or interacting with someone? I'm not gonna answer necessary expecting the answer on that. I just it was one of the things that came up and I thought, can I just throw them that one? They'll probably hate me for it. But

Dr Rad 43:56
I look, I think this ties into Dr. G's interest in the sense of the way that Vestals are disposed of when they've been thought…

Neil – History Hound 45:26
Oh, sorry. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Sorry. That was the best example. Why didn't I think of that? Sorry? No, no,

Dr Rad 45:41
No, there was really no, I was just saying, Yeah, I think it's very much in Dr. G's realm of interest. Yeah.

Dr G 46:39
Yeah. And I think it is a really interesting question. And it is one that I would want to think about more as well, because there is that sense in which the Romans do like creating scenarios where they can say that the gods kind of made the decision about that person's outcome, rather than themselves. And if you manage to convince somebody, either when you're putting them at a spear point, or whatever, to jump off that rock that's now in the gods' hands. And that would be then considered a naturally occurring death rather than one in which life has been taken by another human, and therefore the pollution doesn't happen. strangulation, I think would be a more challenging one to get the vibe, right for in terms of the moral justification. So I'm intrigued by that, because certainly, as a parallel to that, the situation with the Vestal Virgins was that the burial spot was always outside the pomerium, just just outside, so like, right on that edge, okay. And by having that underground chamber and providing a little bit of food and beverage, and then locking those women in, they could reasonably and morally claim that no person in Rome had killed that woman, the gods had decided that she had to die.

Neil – History Hound 48:05
I know in theory as well, I suppose you're, you've got the world if the gods really liked her, they've come and saved her.

Dr G 48:10
Well, exactly. She would have gotten out of there and presumably run away from the city, not come back. So did any survive? We don't know.

Neil – History Hound 48:19
Yeah. There is there is a philosophical exercise or an exercise that was done by in rhetoric, apparently relating to this. So there, you have Quintilian, apparently, who talks about what happens if someone survives the form? And the argument is, do you take them back up and ask for them? And ask them? Do you mind? Would you take them back up and redo it again?

Dr G 48:48
Yeah. Could you quite possibly, I'm sorry?

Neil – History Hound 48:50
How awkward for us. This is really embarrassing from us. So can you help us out here? And there's also these types of sort of, I don't know if there's necessarily an answer to that thing. It was just one of those sort of rhetorical discussions that you had as part of training, because another one that was similar to this was that tyrants were forbidden to be buried in in the city. But if you're struck by lightning, apparently, you had to be buried wherever you were struck by lightning. So if a tyrant was struck by lightning in the forum, they would have to be buried in the forum, or don't you? And again, it's one of those there's probably not a right answer. It's just a sort of how you how you would argue and how you don't argue counters and stuff like that. So again, the other thing about the Tarpeian is that apparently that's what the hill was called before it was called to cancel. Yeah, and it was only changed. I left this, they they changed the name because they found ahead when they were digging for the temple, the foundation of the temple.

Dr G 49:48
That head's pretty important. I think we need to change the name of this place.

Dr Rad 49:53
It's a sign that Rome was meant to be the dominant place in the whole world…

Neil – History Hound 49:58
I like the idea that it was found by someone and they're like, “Oh, I found this head.” “Yeah, it looks like the guy you had an argument with in the pub last night.” “Might be, no idea. I think what we do is obviously come from the gods we obviously meet need to change the name – doesn't look anything like that guy I had an argument with at the pub last night? No.”

Dr Rad 50:14
it's clearly a symbol of our domination.

Neil – History Hound 50:18
Yeah. So yeah, that's I mean, I think I've covered some of the aspects to it. But it's just the way it looks. Now, I understand is very different, because again, it wasn't something that should be said, if you're walking around Rome, now you're walking around in incredibly different Rome, even to the point of going back to say, the first century AD, I think the current archaeological level is around 10 meters below the current level, in most obviously. So in some places, it won't be, but in other places it will be. And in fact, when we want to come to talk about the Tiber, even the Tiber itself is in a very different place to when it was and this changed throughout the Republican period as well, which is a point again, that I'll come to I got obsessed by the Tiber River after a while. I read so many reports and geological surveys and gosh knows what.

Dr Rad 51:05
Well, you've given me a perfect segue here because the next thing we wanted to ask you about were bridges. So Rome's second king Numa is generally given the credit for building the first permanent bridge over the Tiber, known as the Pons Sublicius. Now, obviously, there are practical reasons that one would build a bridge over a river. However, this particular one also seems to have had very significant religious connotations for the Romans. So how was the Pons Sublicius entwined with Roman ritual practices in this early period?

Neil – History Hound 51:46
Thank you. Thank you, right. Yeah, I got obsessed by the Pons Sublicius, because when I was reading up and doing research on it, to talk about the bridge, you have to talk about the river to talk about the river tie, but you've got to make a couple of points about it. The first is the river Tiber now is in a very different course to where it was even in archaic Rome. So in archaic Rome, the likelihood was that it was around 100 meters, where it bends round and comes into what is the Forum Boarium in that area, it was 100 meters further to the east. So if you think the Via Petrocelli that was pretty much the riverbank of the time, if you look on a modern map, if you stood by the bank, now you'd be underwater. That's important for a number of reasons. Firstly, the Tiber was wider, therefore slower. The type of the course of the type of changes and it changes for a number of reasons it changes because of human activity, it changes because of natural mechanics such as siltation. There's also other things apparently are going on it's do with tectonic features, and whatnot. And everything else far too complicated for my for my shallow mind, pun intended, when it comes to that kind of thing. So that explains one practical – because I wanted to what the practical aspect of the bridge first – because it's famous because it's a wooden bridge built without iron. And it takes its name Sublicius, apparently, from piles, which are what it's built on. Now, anyone who's lives near river will realize that bridges are very dangerous. If the rivers starts misbehaving, if you've got a permanent bridge, a stone bridge, that can really cause problems, if the rivers changing if the rivers changing, cause if it's widening or shortening. If it's flooding you can cause it can cause you some serious problems. And it's not until the second century BC that you have the Pons Aemelius, which is the first stone bridge, possibly reconstructed from a wooden one. If you've got this little wooden bridge, and it's on piles, and it can be its mobile, you can do a lot with it, you can make it longer, you can make it shorter, if you think you can raise it, it gives you much more mobility, which is essential when you've got the Tiber which is changing, the Tiber seems to narrow at this point. So when you have a narrowing River as a general rule, said with my geography GCSE how often it gets faster, it gets deeper, so it becomes more dangerous. And that's why that's why we have the bridge in its form. And again, I can't overestimate just how much this does change. For example, the Tiber Island builds up apparently due to sortation in this period, so it's not that and I did read one, one account one myth, I don't know if this links in necessarily, because I'm not sure if it was this they were speaking about. But the myth related to the field of Mars, and apparently some wheat was grown there, because it was sacred to the god Mars, they couldn't, they couldn't eat it or do anything with it. So they will throw in the river and throw it in the river. And it's so cool, so big that it built up over time. And that's how you get the type of river type Tiber island. So I think I think that's one explanation that the Romans had. But in any case, even and this is really important, even if you you were living in the time. If you live for 300 years in from the Regal period onward, you'd have seen the type of move massively so there's something that I try and get across to people and it's very difficult because I I always thought of it as we think of ancient history as monolithic. So the people in 500 BC are the same as the ones in first century AD got the same taste, same technology, they're all ancient. Whereas the reality is, even in sort of between centuries, you've got big changes going on. You've got big change in attitude. When Martial has epigrams he does a guest he does a list of the gifts in the Saturnalia in those includes ancient vases. So what's an ancient vase? Well, well yeah, because it's not it's 300 years old 400 years old, it's gonna be ancient it's we don't have this one advantage for looking or one privilege looking now backwards and going everything before you know the year doll year zero as it were, was ancient and it belong to the same thing people within that period considered time as we do in the same way that we might look back and go the industrial revolution that was a long time ago, people in Republican Rome were looking back and going Romulus a long time ago. Or in theory anyway, if if we knew what they were thinking because bearing in mind that myth doesn't start coming around till later on. Anyway, I'll get back to the bridge. So you have the you have the bridge, which is said is built wooden, and I got it I got a question for your good selves on this. During – and this is where it links in because we have Numa as linked into the bridge, because he was said to have brought in the pontifex or the pontifices – pontifys – pontifesses. It doesn't sound right, it's probably the way I've done it isn't a scientific case. I'm stuck. I'm so gonna mispronounce that and make it a swear word. So I'll just I'll just say priests, I'm just gonna say priests from now on the so you have the priests that are associated with a bridge and the repair. And Plutarch speaks about this. But he says, I don't believe it, everyone else does. But I've I've got I have a thought. And it's not going to be an original thought. It's like many thoughts I have, I think they're really, really good. And then I googled them, it turns out, someone wrote a book about it in the 1920s. But at this time, you have Rome, really, really creating ritual associated to so many things. And one of the things is warfare, you have the doors at Temple thing is Janus, which are opened, close, depending on when Rome is at war, you have the fetiales the priests that you have to declare were in a rich war in a ritualized way, and Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus both tell us that this bridge was removed in times of war, primarily for practical reasons, it made sense, because that's the front door to Rome, they're not going across that if you leave the drawbridge down, problems are going to happen. So if you think about the declaration of war, and then you've got a move an object, and they're shutting doors, and they're dancing to declare war, why wouldn't that be as part of some sort of religious ritual? I mean, again, I'm asking the both of you if you you've probably read books on this already. So it's not a new thing. But could it be in that that declaration of war in the movement of the bridge was was a religious or brought into the religious sphere?

Dr G 57:51
Yeah, I think so. And look, you're not alone. It is, I think the bane of every researcher of the ancient world to come to the sad realization that a German scholar in the 19th century has gazumped you. And, really, you're playing a tough game of catch up. But yeah, certainly this idea of the bridge as being one in the caretakership of the pontifices. So already, there is a ritualized aspect to it, it's something under their purview, they need to think about it. And the idea that a waterway wouldn't have huge symbolic and ritual significance, in any case, I think would be misplaced. There's nothing quite as fundamental to ensuring that urban life is successful, then making sure that you've tended to the river and you Look after it, and it's part of the care and concern. And so having rituals developed around this kind of thing is super important and useful. Water is a cleansing agent. In many respects, it's one of the ways that you shift pollution away from the the sort of the urban area. So it's not a great idea necessarily to put heaps of stuff into your river. But if you'd need to it moves, and that's great, it's probably the fastest way to get it away. And in that sense, having something that traverses that space, allows you to open up one powerful opportunity ahead of you on the other side. But also, as you say, that's that really profound sense of the defensive quality that comes with a waterway and what a bridge does to sort of counteract that. So I think there is ways in which having rituals built up around a wooden bridge that you can shift and move and perhaps adapt to the situation. Super useful and important. And there's certainly no way that I can think of that that wouldn't be a religious thing from the Rome's perspective, from the Roman perspective. They see gods in water, they see gods on land, they see gods in the sky. It's all happening everywhere all the time.

Neil – History Hound 1:00:01
Thanks very much for that. And I'm glad that I wasn't having a moment just thinking that that was something and I completely understand what you're saying about how, when you have these fantastic ideas, you find out that someone has written a book in German in 1912 about it. That happened to me quite a few times. I remember when I was at uni, and I was coming up with great ideas and then finding various books written about it. No, it's quite, it's great, because on one level, you think you've made a real achievement. On the other hand, you get that that dashed quite quickly. But going back to the bridge, there is an episode the bridge is associated with, that falls out just outside just after the recall period. It involves a great name, another great Roman name, and I apologize for my associations when I read this name. Its name is Horatius Cocles. But I read it as a right when I first read it, it's Horatius, Horatius Cockles, made me straightaway, I was thinking of that he's in Dickens, he feels like he should be a chimney sweeper in Dickens or something. But he's, he's a he performs a heroic act. So what happens is you have the Etruscans, who are being led by Lars Porsenna. And they're attacking Rome, they take the Janiculum Hill, which I'll speak about in a moment. And then they look to attack Rome and get through the front of it through that bridge. And Horatius is still on the bridge. And he's defending against all of these individuals. And he asked that the bridge is dismantled behind him, so they can't make they can't make progress. He successfully defeats a few of them and then jumps in the river and swims to the side after being injured a few times.

Dr Rad 1:01:38
Excuse me, we have to mention that he was injured in the buttocks.

Neil – History Hound 1:01:42
Oh I didn't want to say anything? Well, actually, I didn't want to say anything about that. It links in if when I thought of that. I don't know if you familiar with the Battle of Stamford Bridge?

Dr Rad 1:01:53
Ah, yes, I think I am. Is that are we talking about something to do with 1066?

Neil – History Hound 1:01:59
Yeah. 1066. So prior to the Battle of Hastings, you have the Battle of Stamford Bridge, which is up in the north of England, where you have an invading sort of caught this army. Forget the name of it, is it Harold Bluetooth? Someone.

Dr Rad 1:02:12
Harold, Harold Hardrada, I think yeah. Yeah,

Neil – History Hound 1:02:15
Sorry, yeah. And they, they, they were attacked, and you have one individual defending against all of the, the the English as it were army on a bridge. And he puts up a heroic performance until someone goes under the bridge and stabs him from underneath it, and presumably in the groin, stroke, buttock area again. So, if just a just a general thing, if you ever find yourself defending against superior forces on a bridge, where everyone's got pointy things – just watch your backside, that's all I'm gonna say. That's a big weakness. Yeah, just handy hint there, you know, do what do what you will with it. And this, this became a huge, hugely important thing. And again, to the credit of your book, you write about exemplar, you write about the idea of particular events in Roman history being held up as this is how we do it. This defines this as a culture. This is how Rome saw itself, this is a defining moment, it I think, in a way it kind of gets overlooked, because that's at the time where you've got the Republic, being sort of born, you've got lots of things going on. It's like one of those years where you see what won the Oscar and you think my god that won the Oscar and all these other amazing films didn't win the Oscar, you think that would have won the Oscar any other year, but you had like four of them on you. And around 509 BC, you have all these big events are some big events going on, they they kind of almost, they take, they steal the attention from each other. But Rome was very, very keen on this becomes a sort of household thing within Rome. You have later emperors, using the imagery to announce how they're taking Rome back to traditional values, and how they're going to defend our own and things like that. So again, it's it's really important that bridges ultimately associated with that, because how you define that visually, is with a bridge. Because otherwise it's just someone stood there with a spear. You have to have something else in the image. Presumably you're not gonna have his buttocks being stabbed. You're gonna –

Dr G 1:02:42
Make sure you've got a strong pair of underpants.

Neil – History Hound 1:04:22
Well, yeah, that the artists were so limited, you got coin, I've got a coin. That's all I've got. So it becomes a really defining moment for for Rome, and that bridge is part of that. So it can and it's also when we talk about space, in a way we have to talk about time. And when you have somewhere like and I should have mentioned this about Tarpeian rock, and about the bridge. These are both places that Romans can go to and feel and connect with the past as it were now not saying that we will kind of doing nice, guided tours of Rome getting in touch with it in a row. Humans, but at the same time, culturally, you have these points where you can say, this is where this happened. We have that now, you know, we have pretty much you can go to any city and it will have this is where so and so lived or this is where this particular event occurred. And the the actual location might look very different to how it did back then. But you can still, in theory, connect with it. So I think this is very important for Rome on a couple in a couple of ways. The only other thing I can mention about the bridge was because I'm gonna speak about how it linked in with the Janiculum. But the expansion, you know, the bridge allowed the broom to expand past its initial borders, it was that that thing which allowed it to get past the Tiber, which was ultimately there's something that hugely defined it, you know, the hills, keep it there, but the type is the thing that really defines Rome, or that's how I, that's how I perceive it. And you also have the, again, my pronunciation with Argive, the Argives, which has a ritual of purification that finished on the bridge, where they threw straw doles into the water as a part of purification of the city. So yeah, the bridge is really, really important. And it's something which doesn't necessarily underlooked think there's a lot of things to consider it right. But if you're thinking about Rome, perhaps think about the bridges next time we visit Rome, think more about the bridges as a way of going somewhere, just you know, go and stand and have a Look round. Think what what might have been,

Dr G 1:06:22
I was gonna say, you know, you're not going to have him like bending over showing his butt cheek to everybody. Disappointing Rome, you had a choice and you missed it.

Dr Rad 1:06:33
What would happen if you weren't wearing steel underwear at that very moment?

Dr G 1:06:43
Think of what would happen if they were made of wood and how difficult they would have been to cross? So we've been thinking about the major hills of Rome, we've been thinking about the Tiber River. And we've talked a little bit specifically about the Palatine and the Aventine because they sort of stand out in that sort of foundation moment for Rome. But there's definitely more than to the fabled seven. And you've mentioned already the Janiculum. A little bit. And I'm also wondering maybe about the Caelian Hill as well. And how did these hills start to feature into the Regal history as it starts to expand out and we get further into the Kings?

Neil – History Hound 1:07:29
Okay, yeah, I mentioned the Janiculum. So the Janiculum is inherently linked to Rome, because of that bridge. And it's the other side of the Tiber. The Janiculum in a sense is there for one reason, and it's there because you want to get it before anyone else gets it. And again, if you've if you've replaced civilization, you're thinking that big hill, it's near my city, I've got to put some units on that. Because guess what will happen if I don't. And it's, it's justified. Partly, and I think this is the this is interesting, because the other things about the hills is they get much more of a sort of cultural feel to them. With a genetic, you know, it's there. The sources pretty much say it's there because of trade. Because then if you've got that hill, you can govern what goes on on the river. And now the trade routes the other side of the Tiber, which apparently could be exposed to banditry, which is very common. It's also defense because if you've got the hills, someone else can't win. Interestingly enough, when you've got Horatius the reason that the advancing Etruscan army are able to do that and take the bridge or try and take the bridge is because they took the Janiculum first, it's the first place they went. So it's really important purely from a strategic point. Other Hills tend to be more cultural. The Caelian Hill is was settled by Tullus Hostilius from those people that he took from Alba Longa, which is where yeah, where he devastated it more or less after some thorough betrayal by Mettius Fufetius, who was torn asunder by horses. I think it's even even Livy's says that was wrong. Yeah, that was not a good time You crossed the line.

Dr Rad 1:09:04
That's one of my favorite names.

Neil – History Hound 1:09:09
Yeah, what again, I just think of him as the Cowardly Lion type character, but he wasn't; he was very – he was an ardent politician and, and a treacherous one at that. Which surprised really, because you would have thought you could have gone to the Tarpeian rock instead. But hey, you got horses, what are you going to do? Now in terms of it being named, it was named after apparently an Etruscan soldier called Caelius Verbena, or my personal favorite – and I like this more – it could have been named after oak trees. And if you think why would you name somewhere after oak trees I did. Did read that the Aventine apparently in association with the myrtle tree so that could have been a reason why it took its name. Esquiline Hill was apparently named after chestnut trees or could have been, and the Viminal after willow trees.

Dr G 1:09:56
That's a beautiful way to think about Rome. Just yeah, that's surrounding forest and much more peaceful but other options.

Dr Rad 1:10:03
Yeah, I was gonna say it sounds too much. It sounds uncharacteristically gentle.

Neil – History Hound 1:10:08
I know, it did stick out when I was reading. And I thought, that will be nice. I don't believe it. But that would be nice. It's more likely that we're going to name this hill after someone we through from after someone we cut in half, or it's, you know, doesn't always seem to be the most pleasant way that they find their names, but, but also considering just think of how Romans considered their space. And it was dominated by woods, forests, and trees. And obviously, you don't get that so much. If you go to Rome. Now, obviously, even they got some wonderful plane trees. And they they do have some, some lovely shrubbery, too. But as a general, you forget just how much it would have been dictated by so far, we spoke about hills. So far, we've spoken about geographical features, topological features, as it were. But we're also talking about sort of, you know, woods, trees, things like that.

Dr G 1:10:59
And I think this is ties in very much to what you've been saying earlier about, like that sort of monolithic approach to history. And the mistake in doing that, and it's like, this is a place that's just starting out as a place where people have settled and decided to build a life for themselves. It is immersed in nature, they're surrounded by it. And it's not like when you go to Rome today, and it's obviously a very urban place. And they do have a lot of big and beautiful gardens, but they're very contained. This is much more sprawling wildness. And the thing that is unusual is the fact that there are people living here.

Neil – History Hound 1:11:32
Yeah, yeah. The only other thing that I could really come into when it's talking about the calean is something that is, is I can find a great deal of evidence behind it. But the link to possibly Egeria or Egeria, she was the nymph who advised Numa Pompilius, the second Roman king, and who apparently helped him do anything there was there's a sort of shrine, apparently, or, or, or something near the Porta Capena, which was on the foot of the hill. And it for those that don't know, you can look at numerous in two ways. You can look at him this kindly, old man, or you can look at him as a bit of a bit of a traveling salesman. I always think of kind of those those in those films where you have the sort of preacher from the self in the United States, and they're sort of they're gonna cure you, and you know, all of that kind of stuff. And he feels a bit of light at times, mainly because he sorts of does things like, he convinces people to come around, look at his place and say, look, I've got nothing to serve anyone for a feast? Come back in a couple hours. Wow, look, I'm magic. There's, there's lots of food. And apparently people in Rome said, well, that that must be magic, as opposed to just knowing the caterer, which is more plausible response. But he was very much linked into this sort of spiritual mythology of Rome, he gave Rome or furnishes Rome, with a set of really religious, religious spaces where they just compete, because he seems to have taken root, he didn't want a job as king, he turns up, and then he realizes that you've got this really, really gruesome band of highly undesirable people who are being very violent to each other. Rather than keep it you've got to keep them away from declaring war. So we just give them a space where they can compete with that when he does that through setting up all the magistracies all the all the presets and stuff like that. So people can now sort of, I suppose, work out how they can graft across those that that competitive element into the religious element. And so presumed now people just getting annoyed that didn't get the right priesthood as opposed to running across and chopping someone's head off. So he kind of contains that. So you got to feel from that respect, but apparently he has a nymph, who teaches him lots gives him lots of special advice and information. She was linked in some way to this hill, or has a possible association with this hill.

Dr G 1:13:49
Numa he's one of my favorite characters from the Regal period, I have to say, and the fact that he spends what seems to be at least 50% of his time hanging out with imaginary friend in the forest is just fantastic.

Neil – History Hound 1:14:03
Well, one of the things I don't, I don't won't get the chance to talk about is Jupiter Lisius, or Licius the, the the magical sprats that he had, which would stop him getting hit by lightning and the fact that he could use an altar to Jupiter to conduct a storm and then read portents from it. I just think that's wonderful. That's just such a fantastic myth that you had him or rather in association with him, it sort of moves more to the whole of trust and brontoscopy, which is how you read the portents through through storms and I've actually got a copy of the brontoscopic calendar and I put it up on my Tiktok whenever it storms or go out and I read what it portrays do what it you know, it says weird stuff. Sometimes it's like, everyone will die. The crops will be ruined. Sometimes it's some sometimes it's it's nice. Most of the time it's not. Sometimes it's nice saying anyone called Clive, they probably need to check their their car insurance. It goes from the big to the really, really incidental, because presumably you've got 365 entries. So once you get the big things done,

Dr G 1:15:08
you just got to fill out the rest of the thing. You're like, okay, all right,

Neil – History Hound 1:15:12
Check. If there's Thunderhead check the back of the fridge, something might be off. It's that sort of a thing.

Dr G 1:15:20
Well, thank you so much for sitting down with us. And taking us through some of these sort of sprawling landscapes that make up this early, early period of Rome's sort of typography, the way it thinks about itself. And the way people might be engaging with those sorts of spaces. I think it's really great food for thought, to start to reimagine what this place Look like, how it operated, and how people operated within those spaces. And obviously, the modern city today inspires your imagination for some of those sorts of things. But when we're thinking about the Regal period, we're going back well before all of those ruined pieces of architecture that you spot in the forum, for instance. So it's like, we really have to get ourselves into a whole different zone to start thinking about the Regal period. So thank you so much.

Neil – History Hound 1:16:11
No pleasure, thank you very much for letting me come on give you weird analogies. jokes that probably to do well, and tangents, which is generally what I do.

Dr G 1:16:19
Oh no, I'm always up for a good shrubbery reference, you know.

Dr Rad 1:16:26
And I think that you have showcased to our audience if they aren't already avid listeners of your podcast, that in spite of the fact that you keep calling us experts, your level of research is amazing. And people should definitely go and check out your wonderful work.

Neil – History Hound 1:16:42
That's very kind of you. You're not expecting money for that. Are you? I have no, I have no budget. I can't.

Dr Rad 1:16:48
Well, naturally I don't want to have to pay you for plugging out book earlier, obviously.

Neil – History Hound 1:16:52
Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate being being on a on a podcast such as yourselves, which is obviously very, very helpful very well in high esteem.

Dr G 1:17:22
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there's a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time. If you're keen to chip in, you can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi, or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book “Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome” at partial historians.com Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Who is Servius Romanus you might ask? Well, in this episode we’re about to find out. But when we tell you it’ll be brief – we are telling only the truth! On the back of the putative introduction of pay for Roman soldiers in 406 BCE (a much disputed idea in scholarship), Rome is facing challenges from their neighbours. These challenges are coming from many directions, so it’s no doubt a relief when someone helps them out. Enter: Servius Romanus.

Episode 149 – The Brief Life and Times of Servius Romanus

Siege at Veii!

Watch out Veii, Rome is coming for you! Veii seems to be well aware of the Roman threat, however, and might just be looking to call in the broader Etruscan peoples to support them. How will things pan out for Veii in the years 405 and 404? We consider the fairly limited details for your listening pleasure.

But what about the Volscians?

Rome is facing trouble on multiple fronts (perhaps indicated by the sheer number of military tribunes with consular power listed for both the years 405 and 404). It comes as no surprise that pursuing an aggressive policy against Veii opens the way for more conflict from the Volscii. Listen out for mentions of places including Ferentium, Ecetra, and Artena.

Aerial photograph of the modern town of Artena in Lazio, Italy.
Photo by FrancescoSchiraldi85 via Wikimedia Commons.

Our Players for 405 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular Power

• Titus Quinctius T. f. L. n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat)
• Quintus Quinctius (L. f. L. n.) Cincinnatus (Pat)
• Gaius Iulius Sp. f. Vopisci n. Iullus (Pat)
• Aulus Manlius A. f. Cn. n. Vulso Capitolinus (Pat)
• Lucius Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat)
• Manius Aemilius Mam(ercus). f. M(arcus). n. Mamercinus (or Mamercus) (Pat)

Our Players for 404 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular Power

• Gaius Valerius L. f. Vol. n. Potitus Volusus (Pat)
• Manius Sergius L. f. L. n. Fidenas (Pat)
• Publius Cornelius (M. f. M. n.) Maluginensis (Pat)
• Gnaeus Cornelius P. f. A. n. Cossus (Pat)
• Kaeso Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat)
• Spurius Nautius Sp. f. Sp. n. Rutilus (Pat)

Things to listen out for

• Challenges with the extant source material
• The organisation of the Etruscan federation
• The Shrine of Voltuma (the Central Perk?)
• What’s going on with the politics of Sicily and Carthage?
• The intriguing modern history of Artena
• Military strategy re citadels in action
• Food security in the ancient world compared with climate change today
• A sneaky mention of Velitrae

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy, ab Urbe Condita, 4.60-61
• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 14.17.1; 14.19.1; Fasti Capitolini for 405 and 404 BCE
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Sound Credits

Our theme music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Painted terracotta Etruscan antefix depicting the head of Medusa. From the Portonaccio Temple at Veii, c. 510 BCE.
Held in National Etruscan Museum of Villa Giulia, Rome.
Photo by Carole Raddato via Flickr.

Automated Transcript

Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:30
And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:02
And I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:04
Welcome back, everybody! We are getting so very close to the turn of the century. Here, we're edging our way closer and closer with every episode. In fact, I think this episode, we're going to do two years in one episode, I'm just I just have a feeling.

Dr G 1:21
Look, I definitely have that feeling. But that might be because I have so many gaps in my source material.

Dr Rad 1:28
You're not alone. I don't have much in my particular source material this time. But we're excited to be talking once more about ancient Rome listeners, and what was happening at this particularly interesting time in their history.

Dr G 1:43
It is 405 BCE. And that's where we'll, that's where we'll be starting out in this.

Dr Rad 1:50
But before we do that, Dr. G, I think we need to do a bit of a recap, because the last year was pretty significant.

Dr G 1:58
It was, but I'll level with you. I can't really remember. But I think that's my source material.

Dr Rad 2:04
That's the best way to remember that something was important!

Dr G 2:08
It was all about the vibe. Wasn't it?

Dr Rad 2:10
Okay. So whilst there are, obviously, you know, some questions that we had, if we're going to believe the account that we have from Livy, who is our major narrative source at this point for ancient Roman history, it was the year that military pay was introduced. That's what we were talking about last time. Finally, there was an actual kind of more or less state funded military pay that was introduced in the previous episode, and everyone lost their collective minds.

Dr G 2:43
They did, because we also have what amounts to a dual or triple military sort of pronged situation where the Volscii are causing an issue. The Aequians might be also a problem. And then there's also the issue with Veii.

Dr Rad 2:58
Yes, the Etruscans once again, rearing their ugly heads in the north.

Dr G 3:04
And I think we should put a big asterisk next to soldiers pay, because this seems to be in at best, maybe a one off payment for some difficult conditions being faced, and potentially the need to overwinter in a location rather than return home, stay warm at home and nice and cozy, and then go back out in springtime, which is the usual way that Roman campaigning seems to have operated.

Dr Rad 3:32
Yes, this is a chilly money situation. It may not even be money –

Dr G 3:37
Show me that cold hard cash!

Dr Rad 3:39
Yeah because I will be cold. Yeah, no. It might not even be money. Obviously, it might be goods of some kind, obviously, food, food resources, food related resources.

Dr G 3:52
Nevertheless, it might set an exciting precedent for what soldiers might expect in the future.

Dr Rad 3:58
Oh, absolutely. As hard as we know, it's always hard to put a genie back in a bottle, Dr G. So whilst there are a lot of questions about how are they getting paid? Why were they getting paid? Were they even getting paid? Livy tells us that they were and that they were just so excited about the idea. And of course, the only people that were holding back a little bit were the tribune of the plebs. They were suspicious from the get go.

Dr G 4:27
Probably rightly, so. I'll give them that.

Dr Rad 4:29
Yeah, and that's because we kind of started out 406 last episode with this conflict with they starting to rev up. But nobody really having the enthusiasm or the energy to go and deal with it because they were already, as you say, fighting other enemies and dealing with other issues, and they were just kind of over it. But this whole military pay scenario and the way that the patricians handled it in particular, has really won them over and they're so excited that the Romans were able to declare war on they and have basically like a full volunteer army like there's no talk about the levy and that sort of thing. Ready to go.

Dr G 5:10
People are like, ‘Payment? Sign me up, I'm in.'

Dr Rad 5:12
Oh, absolutely they were like, ‘Hell yeah. Because, if you're going to pay me, I'm absolutely there.'

Dr G 5:17
Wait a minute.

Dr Rad 5:19
Yeah. I mean that to be fair, that's that's kind of my line as well.

Dr G 5:23
Fair enough. Yeah. All right. So that means it is time to turn our attention to 405 BCE.

Dr Rad 5:31
Certainly is.

All right, Dr. G. Now, I know that Dionysius has left you after some creative differences.

Dr G 6:09
We disagreed on whether he should leave his fragments behind for posterity and he just absolutely refused.

Dr Rad 6:16
I know that you probably know who the magistrates are, at least, so thanks to Broughton.

Dr G 6:23
Ah, dear Broughton, where would I be without Broughton's superior work? So apparently, and things are starting to feel a little chaotic from a magisterial perspective. Because apparently, we have six military tributes with consular power for the year 405, which is a lot, maybe too many. And so I'm going to give you a whole list of Latin names and everybody listening – and us – are going to feel slightly bad. Get ready for it. Get ready for it, because none of these names actually mean anything. Because I have no other source material. So I don't know what sort of weight to give them. Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus

Dr Rad 7:05
Familiar, familiar

Dr G 7:07
Previously consul in 421. So must be getting on a little bit now.

Dr Rad 7:12
I was going to say the Quinctii are definitely a family that we know well.

Dr G 7:17
They are. And we also have Quintus Quinctius Cincinnatus who previously military tribunes with consular power in 415. So two Quinctii already

Dr Rad 7:29
And not the famous Cincinnatus. This would be someone from that branch.

Dr G 7:35
Yeah, we're done with famous Cincinatii for now.

Dr Rad 7:38
Yeah, he's dead. Yeah.

Dr G 7:40
He's gone. Gaius Iulius Vopisci Iullus

Dr Rad 7:44
Ooo a Iulii.

Dr G 7:48
Indeed. And a recent military tribute and as well from 408.

Dr Rad 7:53
True, very true.

Dr G 7:56
Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus

Ahhh the manly Manlii.

Watch out for this guy. He's on the up and up. Lucius Furius Medullinus.

Dr Rad 8:11
Excellent. Gotta have some Furii in there.

Dr G 8:13
You certainly do, and a very illustrious one as well. So he was previously consul in 413, and 409. And also military tribune with consular power in 407. And is in the middle of a career, so he's going to come up again and again. And finally, we have Manius Aemilius Mamercinus, or Mamercus? There seems to be some confusion.

Dr Rad 8:40
There always is with this guy.

Dr G 8:43
This guy, yeah. Consul in 410. And we'll also have some future since as well coming up. So some pretty familiar names, I would say, I don't think anybody sort of stands out as being really unusual here, except maybe Vulso Capitolinus. But yeah, there's just a lot of them, which suggests that Rome has got a lot of military issues where they want commanders in the field.

Dr Rad 9:12
I think that's how we should probably read this, given what we know is happening in the background. But it's also really interesting to say this, because it's really like a who's who of the famous gens – the clans – of ancient Rome at this point in time. These are these are families that have just come up again and again.

Dr G 9:29
Yeah, they're all the big families. All of them have had previous positions. None of them are new families to these kinds of roles. So we've got a sense in which there is an elite that has really established itself over the course of this first century of the early republic, as far as our records take us. And we have to admit that they're kind of sketchy, I guess. So. Yeah. For instance, the Fasti Capitolini is the big inscription that we tend to refer to to get these names from initial late, but we understand that the Fasti Capitolini was a late creation.

Dr Rad 10:06
Yes, exactly.

Dr G 10:07
And we're not sure what documentation it was necessarily leveraged from? Was it from linen scrolls? Or is it from other inscriptions? Was it from family oral histories? So, I mean, the big questions are still there to be asked what is going on? And I feel like Livy is going to have the answers.

Dr Rad 10:26
Well, look, we do have a fairly big event for this year, but not a lot of detail at the moment. Okay, we're gonna have a banner year in 403. 405 and 404 are important just for the build up towards that point. So basically, what Livy tells me is that we've got all these different military tribunes and these are the guys that start the siege of they the first siege of Veii, so Veii being this Etruscan city that Rome has particular beef with probably because geographically, they just come into contact a lot more than some of the other Etruscan city. So they start this siege, not long after the beginning of the sage, the Etruscans come together to have one of their federal meetings. Now, just a refresher, in case you have forgotten, the Etruscans not all ruled by you know, like one major city or one person or even one group of people. As far as we can see a trust can share, you know, kind of like a cultural, linguistic connection with each other. But, you know, they can come together and unite. But there are 12 major cities that kind of form the basis of Etruria to the north of Rome.

Dr G 11:53
Yeah, so they tend to have what we think are 12 kings, so 12 regal representatives. And in a way you can think of Rome having gone through a similar kind of process, with having a king very localized the king of the place. Yes, and what Etruria has done is to sort of harness that kind of leadership into a broad coalition.

Dr Rad 12:15
Exactly. Yeah.

Dr G 12:16
And you might see this as similar to the what the Latin people were also doing. So we know that Alba Longa, up in the mountains to the south east of Rome had a king, for instance. So this idea of really localized magisterial power is not new for the whole Italian Peninsula. But the way the Etruscans are able to harness it into a coalition does seem to be a little bit more fruitful for them than it is for other groups within Italy.

Dr Rad 12:45
Yes, exactly. And we have talked about them having these group meetings before, so I kind of like to think of them as being like Power Rangers. They come together, and they discuss, ‘Is it morphing time? Is it?' So in this particular instance, we know that over the past sort of, you know, 50 years in particular, there have been some pretty epic clashes between they and drone. And we know there have been instances where the Etruscans have come together to talk about how involve everyone else should get in these clashes between their environment. This is again, one of those moments, where they meet at this place called the shrine of Voltumna. So again, we've mentioned this place before, when we've talked about these meetings, it seems to be their favorite hang. It's their Central Perk, if you will. Now, you're probably going to ask me, Dr. G. Where is this shrine? I cannot tell you.

Dr G 13:41
Oh, no, come on.

Dr Rad 13:43
I know. So we don't know an awful lot about either the goddess Voltumna, who is associated with this particular shrine, we know she's a very early Etruscan goddess, we know that there seems to be some sort of connection between her and the Volsinii or the Volscini. So presumably, somewhere in their region, their part of the world, but we really have no firm idea of where this particular shrine was. And we don't know an awful lot about her as a goddess, we just know that this is obviously an important place for the Etruscans to come together and it gets mentioned a few times.

Dr G 14:23
All right, so they get together this shrine of Voltumna, goddess of the unknown, to see about what they're gonna do. Sounds exciting so far.

Dr Rad 14:33
Yes, exactly. So there's heaps of people at this meeting as they're discussing whether they should get involved and make this a wider Etruscan versus Rome showdown, or whether they should just let they deal with it themselves.

Dr G 14:47
Do we come together and grind Rome under the Etrurian heel? Or do we just let they try to navigate this situation?

Dr Rad 14:55
Well, we can probably understand why they're a little bit should we because lest we forget this all apparently started because the people have they suddenly were very rude to. And so maybe the dress codes don't want to go to war because the people have a had bad manners.

Dr G 15:16
And that should never be rewarded.

Dr Rad 15:18
Exactly, exactly. So they're very unsure. They're going backwards and forwards and they're, they're really not sure what they want to do. Meanwhile, the siege that the Romans have started against Veii doesn't really go anywhere, because some of the military tribunes as well as a portion of the Roman forces had to go and leave to deal with the Volscians. And it was like, ‘Come on, Volscians we're sieging here, we're sieging here!'

Dr G 15:46
Oh, Rome, nothing is gonna let down a siege more than moving your troops away from the siege position.

Dr Rad 15:53
It is siege rules of warfare 101. And that's really all I've got for 405, Dr. G.

Dr G 16:03
Intriguing. Okay. Now, the things that I do have for 405 do not pertain to Rome in any way, shape, or form. I have Diodorus Siculus.

Dr Rad 16:14
Oh, okay.

Dr G 16:15
And as we know, he's a little bit untrustworthy at times, but he's trying to do a universal history of the Mediterranean. And Rome isn't where it's at right now. He knows that, the Romans don't. And so he generally speaking doesn't have a lot to say about them. But he does have some things to say about the unfolding situation in Sicily, and what's going on with the Carthaginians. Because Sicily has on the eastern coast of Sicily, it is now under the control of a tyrant called Dionysius. And that's fine, clearly a Greek. But he now wants to take the war to Carthage. Now the Greeks and the Carthaginians have been squabbling over Sicily for a while. And that's fine. But now we start to learn more about this tyrants character, right. And he's not just willing to take Carthage on, he wants to sort of launch an offensive rather than waiting for the Carthaginians to come to Sicily, he's like that, we got to take the fight to that. And then he's like, ‘how am I going to raise the morale of my people in order to bring this about?' And so he gets down in the trenches, basically, and starts putting in the hard yards to help build defensive walls. And to put in the work required just in case the Carthaginians do turn up before he's able to do the offensive. So there's a sense in which he's building his charismatic profile as a Greek tyrant in Sicily, and the people like he's out in the field, he's building a wall. Look at those, Look at those well oiled arms.

Dr Rad 17:53
Now, we should just say that generally people shouldn't feel excited about a political leader building a wall.

Dr G 18:01
I wouldn't recommend it generally.

Dr Rad 18:02
No, no, it's very different in ancient times.

Dr G 18:05
In ancient times, the wall is a pretty good idea. In modern times, I wouldn't, I'm not on the side of the wall. But nevertheless, he seems to recruit this reputation for one being willing to be part of the building process, which I can't foresee in this modern period ever really quite happening. But yeah, that's it. That's all I've got. I did not know about the shrine of Voltumna, although I'm going to look her up because that sounds really interesting to me.

Dr Rad 18:36
Definitely.

Dr G 18:38
And that's it, there's nothing going on. There's nothing going on.

Dr Rad 18:41
There's nothing going on apart from a siege that has stalled and presumably, we've got some more conflict with the Volscii on the horizon, so let's transition into 404 BCE.

So Dr. G, do we have as many military tribunes with consular power for 404 as we did for 405?

Dr G 19:29
Oh, Look, it's a mess. There's six more military tribunes with consular power. And again, I don't have heaps of detail to give you but I mean, I do have slightly more than I had last year. So it's good news. But like let's get through this epic list of names. We have Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusus consul of 410, military tribune with consular power in 415. Manius Sergius Fidenas: we're not sure about his exact name. So Livy apparently has Marcus as the praenomen. But the Fasti Capitolini lists the abbreviation M with the apostrophe, which is Manius. So there could be some discrepancies there in our source material. We have Publius Cornelius Maluginensis.

Dr Rad 20:25
Oh that's a horrible name. Maluginensis.

Dr G 20:30
Maluginensis. Hmmm, yeah. When and we're not really quite sure how this particular Cornelii fits into the broad again structure, either. Not really. It's a bit of doubt about where this figure fits in. Nevertheless, we have a Cornelii in here. We have a second Cornelii in Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus,

Dr Rad 20:53
Ah one of the Cossii.

Dr G 20:54
Yeah, and very familiar as well, was military tribune in 406.

Dr Rad 20:59
Yes, yes.

Dr G 21:01
Then we have Kaeso Fabius Ambustus.

Dr Rad 21:04
Ooo a fabulous Fabian.

Dr G 21:05
Yeah, so fabulous Fabian, and they still seem to be some discrepancy about the praenomen of this guy as well. Some people see it as Gaius. So that would be the C abbreviation. And sometimes it's the K abbreviation for Kaeso.

Dr Rad 21:25
That is unusual.

Dr G 21:27
It is unusual. And it means that we might actually be dealing with two different people, right? Is this Kaeso? Or is this Gaius? Later on we're going to have somebody with a very similar name, but a different praenomen. And so we're not sure two people, maybe one person with two heads.

Dr Rad 21:44
One of these is just like the other.

Dr G 21:49
And lastly, Spurius Nautius Rutilus, who was consul in 411 and military tribune with consular power in 419 and 416. So a lot of a lot of names. But what is going on?

Dr Rad 22:06
I know, I know, it's a lot. Okay. So there is definitely some military action in 404. Let's start with the Volscians because of course, they had to interrupt this seige against Veii to go and deal with them. So there was a big pitched battle with the Volscians between Ferentium and Ecetra, et cetera, et cetera.

Dr G 22:30
Okay.

Dr Rad 22:31
And the Romans were victorious.

Dr G 22:35
Intriguing.

Dr Rad 22:37
I know they've been doing pretty well against the Volscians of late. The tribunes then decided they were going to besiege a Volscian town, one Artena.

Dr G 22:49
Ah, yes, now I do have some details on Artena.

Dr Rad 22:52
Excellent.

Dr G 22:55
Now, unfortunately, it is one of these places, like so many in the ancient world, where we do not know the location of it. But there is a modern town called Artena, which is about 40 kilometers south east of Rome.

Dr Rad 23:11
Okay, that sounds kind of about right.

Dr G 23:14
It sounds kind of about right. Yeah. And the reason it sounds kind of about right, is because that this place changed its name in the 1870s, based on the theory that it was the location of the ancient Volscian town. So this town was known as Montefortino for many years. So a completely different name.

Dr Rad 23:38
Oh, I actually have heard of that place. I have no idea why. But I have, yeah.

Dr G 23:42
And they got this idea that maybe it was the location of the ancient Artena. So then they changed their whole town's name to reflect that. So it's a bit of a furphy because we're still not sure.

Dr Rad 23:56
Well, that's confidence. Yeah.

Dr G 23:59
And it's also the case that this modern town of Artena is also speculated to be one of the potential locations for the Volscian city of Ecetra.

Dr Rad 24:09
Right. Okay.

Dr G 24:10
So, we don't – to add confusion into the mix. The geography is all over the place.

Dr Rad 24:18
Yeah. That seems to be the theme that we're talking about places that we don't know where they are. All right, so the Romans do this by doing a bit of a sortie against Artena. This this place that apparently does not exist. The Volscians were therefore driven all the way back into the city by the Romans, the Romans were able to penetrate the city and they were able to capture everything except the citadel of Artena.

Dr G 24:50
Wow, okay. That's pretty devastating for the Volscii, I would say.

Dr Rad 24:54
It is, but it does mean that it's not quite the complete victory that the Romans would want. They've got A bunch of warriors that are holed up in the citadel. So the Romans have to then besieged the citadel.

Dr G 25:06
Oh, no!

Dr Rad 25:08
I know no matter what they tried Dr. G, they just could not win. The people inside. I mean, what's, what's their motivation, I suppose for giving up at this point in time, they're not going to surrender, they're going to stay there until the end, they had very cleverly move the town's green supply inside the citadel before the Romans had arrived. So they're also not going to starve to death super quickly, apparently.

Dr G 25:37
Okay, this spells bad news for Rome. Not only do they have their ongoing yet kind of failing siege with Veii, they're now in a situation where they're trying to besiege somewhere else, which has got a really clear food supply. And when we're thinking about the ancient world, I think we have to keep in mind that food supply and food security is a really big concern.

Dr Rad 26:02
Absolutely.

Dr G 26:03
So I think in our modern age of like, hyper convenience and food availability, that we don't tend to think about this in terms of the the worry and concern and the ongoing engagement with food supply, that would have been part and parcel of the ancient world.

Dr Rad 26:22
Definitely. But I mean, I think the interesting thing is, as we often talk about that, that will probably change. Climate change is going to affect what we can grow, where we can grow it, I mean, it already I shouldn't say is going to affect it is already affecting our ability to grow things. Like for example, if you're a fan of wine, I know that there are certain regions in the world that have had to change the types of grapes that they use, because the previous types of grapes can't grow in the warmer climates that now exists. But eventually, you know, it's going to get too warm to grow things anyway. So it's just going to be one of those things that we are going to have to I think engage with because, yeah, it is going to become part of our reality. And that's also applies to things like the damaging fishing practices that we use are damaging agricultural practices that we use. We have at the moment, sure, plenty of food in certain parts of the world. But that's not going to remain the case unless we start paying more attention to where our food comes from and how it is produced.

Dr G 27:21
Indeed, exactly. I echo your sentiments.

Dr Rad 27:26
Anyway, to return to this particular citadel with its grain supply. So the Romans obviously wanted to capture this place, lock, stock and barrel. They don't want to give up with a citadel. You know, still being held on to that's not going to be the victory that they're after. So they're in a terrible mood, because they're like, ‘God, dammit, we've done so well up until this point. The citadel is just a thorn in our side.' But then a slave betrayed the people inside the citadel.

Dr G 27:59
Gasp how dare they?

Dr Rad 28:01
I feel like we've had stories a bit like this before doesn't mean that they're not true. Obviously, it makes sense that things would play out in this way, but…

It is a bit of a literary trope as well, isn't it?

It is it is. Yeah. So the slave apparently allowed some of the Roman soldiers inside by showing them Sure, a more difficult, steeper approach, but like an alternative route that they weren't perhaps aware of, or thought that they could use because it was a little bit more challenging. And so as a result, the Romans were able to capture the citadel, they killed all of the sentries, and the rest of the people obviously, who were left inside the citadel, were just so freaked out that the Romans suddenly appear in their midst that they surrender without too much more of a fight.

Dr G 28:47
Wow. Okay, so the slave's like, ‘So if you're partial to being a bit of a mountain goat, yeah, I can show you the secret entry.'

Dr Rad 28:56
Exactly. I thought. Yeah, so this is obviously good news for the Romans. Perhaps this next bit explains why we aren't entirely sure where Artena is because the Romans apparently demolish the entire town, paying particularly close attention to the pesky citadel in the process.

Dr G 29:16
Well, well, well, somebody needs to write a stern letter to modern Artena and be like, ‘Excuse me, you were destroyed.'

Dr Rad 29:24
Exactly. Yeah, the Romans were so annoyed by that whole situation that they tore it apart brick by brick.

Dr G 29:31
Fair enough.

Dr Rad 29:32
So with that done, the Romans feel like they can officially leave Volscian territory and they can now fully dedicate themselves to this conflict with Veii.

Dr G 29:44
All right, okay, so the siege is back on.

Dr Rad 29:47
Well, I don't know that this siege was ever off. It was more just said it was maybe it wasn't getting all their attention and taking on they you know, the Romans know that they're not a pushover, so they they probably need to throw everything they've got at it, you know?

Dr G 30:02
Yeah. And Veii seems to be in a pretty defensive position, it sort of jumps out on a bit of a ledge. So it's not like it's an easy place to just rock up and take, you're definitely going to have to spend some time figuring out how to take it.

Dr Rad 30:18
Yes, exactly. Now, as for our slave who helped the Romans to achieve this victory, they were apparently, I should say, he was apparently given his freedom, and given the name Servilius Romanus, plus the property of two families as a reward for his betrayal.

Dr G 30:41
Oh, how strange.

Dr Rad 30:43
I know, I know. This is kind of an interesting little naming thing for us. Because that name, it's obviously trying to make us try to give him a name so that he would fit in with the kids on the playground, you know, he's got like a Latin name. But it is obviously signaling something about where he came from. In theory. Now, there's, as we know, there's huge amounts of discussion about the name Servilius, because one of the kings of Rome had that same name. And we know it doesn't necessarily mean that you were a slave.

Dr G 31:17
But there are a hints, like, it's that sort of thing where it's like, you've got a like a little bit of a rhyme, you've got like a sound connection. So you might be able to say, strictly speaking, doesn't mean that they're a slave. But when you say their name, everybody's gonna think it.

Dr Rad 31:34
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And it might be indicating something about the origin. You know, like, not everybody in the family obviously, is a slave. But it might be saying something about where the fame the family came from. So this particular name, Servilius, Romanus that's giving a fairly clear idea of what this guy's origins were.

Dr G 31:53
Like, ‘Sure, you can stay with us and be free. What we're going to call you though, is a slave of Rome.'

Dr Rad 31:58
Yes, exactly.

Dr G 32:00
That's your name.

Dr Rad 32:01
That's your name now. Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 32:03
Like, ‘Oh, gee, thanks, guys. I feel so free.'

Dr Rad 32:07
Now, there is a bit of discussion, actually, in Livy himself about the confusion about Artena and its location.

Dr G 32:15
Okay, well, that does not surprise me at all.

Dr Rad 32:18
Yeah, so apparently, some people thought that Artena was actually part of Veii's territory, not Volscian territory.

Dr G 32:26
That would be awkward for the people who have named their modern town Artena.

Dr Rad 32:32
I know, Livy, however, does not believe this, because whilst there was a city, more towards the north that had the same name, it was apparently demolish under the Roman kings.

Dr G 32:47
Okay, well, that's even more unusual.

Dr Rad 32:51
I know. I know. So there's just a huge amount of confusion about this particular place. Some scholars have even suggested that maybe it shouldn't be ARtena, but ORtena?

Dr G 33:02
Wow. I'm not gonna wait into that debate. OR not maybe.

Dr Rad 33:09
Yeah, exactly. I think we can just safely say, nobody has any idea where this is. We simply do not have the evidence. No, but I think it does make sense that, you know, this is a little Volscian conflict. You know, it makes sense that wherever they were fighting, it was the Volscians they were fighting at this point in time.

Dr G 33:30
And also that sense in which Rome's forces are split. So they're trying to do things on a number of different places. And that means that their chances of success in any place is compromised, because their forces are stretched thin.

Dr Rad 33:48
Yes, exactly. Now, that kind of wraps up for for, for me, they both pretty brief years, we can start 403 if you would like and it's a pretty monster year.

Dr G 34:00
I think we should save 403.

Dr Rad 34:02
Okay.

Dr G 34:03
Because it is it is an epic time to embark upon. And I think the I want to savour that.

Dr Rad 34:12
Fair enough. That's fair. No, it is going to be a bit of a gigantic year, I think but definitely

Dr G 34:16
Foreshadowing, foreshadowing

Dr Rad 34:17
For sure. Yeah, definitely. I think we can say by the sudden increase in the amount of military tribunes with consular power, we can see what's happening for Rome at this point in time.

Dr G 34:28
So the only other detail I have to add to any of this is that Diodorus Siculus does hint that there is an increase in the number of colonists that Rome sends to a city called Velitrae.

Dr Rad 34:43
Oh, okay. We did we have talked about Velitrae, yeah.

Dr G 34:46
Yeah, so this is a Latin city. It's in the southern foothills of the Albian Hills, which are the ones just just to the southeast of Rome. You can see them from the city and this means that maybe trying to like, establish a greater foothold in that area. It's not at all clear why they would be doing that, at this stage, particularly when they've got forces stretched over a number of different battle fronts. But nevertheless, this is a little detail that we're given. So Velitrae is part of the broader Latin league in 498. And then then it's conquered by the Romans in 494. And from that point onwards, it's a Roman colony, apparently. So even though there's some tussles and disputes they seem to be trying to reinforce an area, which is a little bit closer to Volscian territory, as well, potentially.

Dr Rad 35:41
I remembered reading about that. And I just suddenly thought, Oh, my God, like, it's just one of those things where it's a timing that's out, but I thought I was just quickly sneakily trying to, to check it. But

Dr G 35:52
Look, there doesn't seem to be – it's not adding to the narrative, particularly because I don't know what, like I don't have any sort of the puzzle pieces of like Livy's narrative to hook this into. This is something that comes up in Diodorus Siculus, he might be off by a couple of years, that's possible as well. But he does also name a whole bunch of the military tribunes for this year, and he gets most of them right.

Dr Rad 36:15
Well, yeah. And it does make sense because we know that Rome is suddenly becoming much more aggressive and expansionist, and they are, they are establishing more colonies and that sort of thing at this point in time and more control, sometimes, you know, they capture it, and then they lose it fairly quickly, again, but certainly the intention of not just focusing on their internal problems and defending themselves. They're definitely trying to build something here. Definitely.

Dr G 36:43
Exactly. All right. So that's – what – 405 and 404.

Dr Rad 36:48
That is 405 and 404, which means, Dr. G., it is time for the Partial Pick!

Dr G 37:01
The Partial Pick. So Rome has the possibility of gaining a maximum of 50, golden eagles. They are rated across five categories with 10 each. Let's see how they do.

Dr Rad 37:17
Let's see indeed. So what's our first category Dr. G?

Dr G 37:21
Military clout.

Dr Rad 37:23
Okay, not so great in 405. But there's some stuff happening in 404.

Dr G 37:30
I feel like they kind of balance each other out. It's not like they're successful of their seige of Veii. We know that's going to continue on for a long time.

Dr Rad 37:38
That's gonna take a while. Yeah, yeah.

Dr G 37:41
And they are eventually successful in Artena.

Dr Rad 37:44
They are.

Dr G 37:45
So…

Dr Rad 37:46
Artena seems to be fairly easy. It's just a citadel that takes them a little bit of work. And even then it doesn't seem like that much effort.

Dr G 37:54
Yeah, like, once they know the secret path. They're all good.

Dr Rad 37:56
Exactly. So, look. Ahhh but I didn't know what as you say, I don't know what a big deal Artena is. Certainly the fact that they raze it to the ground, they're sending a pretty clear message.

Dr G 38:07
It is, I probably give them maybe a four. Like it's a pretty big thing to take something and then raze it to the ground. That doesn't seem to be the Roman way very much in this period. They tend to take things and then leave again. Or they tend to take things and then put colonists in and hope for the best.

Dr Rad 38:24
This is true, but four? I mean, come on. That's a failing mark, Dr. G. I think we gotta give them a six, surely?

Dr G 38:30
Well, it's not like they're really winning. I don't even know where this place is.

Dr Rad 38:37
That's because they razed it to the ground! No, I think it has to be a six. They did capture this place and they were also successful in the other battle.

Dr G 38:46
All right. I will I think we need to be careful here because if I let you have a six, I won't negotiate later on a low score.

Dr Rad 38:51
Okay, that's fine. I just feel like this one. This one needs to be a six, I think.

Dr G 38:57
All right. All right.

Dr Rad 38:58
Okay. I, I appreciate the six.

Dr G 39:03
Our second category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad 39:07
Okay. Well, yeah, not a lot of that going on with warfare on pretty much every front.

Dr G 39:13
Yeah, I mean, can you consider their discussion with Servilius Romanus as a negotiation? I think it's a defection.

Dr Rad 39:23
It is. It's definitely that yeah, no, I think that there's no diplomacy to be had. I mean, we this would this wouldn't be points for the Romans, we definitely see the Etruscans practicing some diplomacy, but I don't think that right, we should get the score for them having a meeting.

Dr G 39:38
We're gonna have to change the whole Partial Pick, when Rome has like substantial enemies who are doing better than them.

Dr Rad 39:44
Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 39:44
We'll come back to that. So zero.

Dr Rad 39:46
Okay.

Dr G 39:47
All right. The third category is expansion.

Dr Rad 39:51
Well, as you say, like I'm willing to say that this could be a lower score because there's no mention made of what they do with this Volscian city that they raze to the ground, it doesn't seem like they have any interest in holding it.

Dr G 40:09
So they don't seem to be including it as part of their territory…

Dr Rad 40:13
No…

Dr G 40:14
if they're raising it to the ground, they kind of just getting rid of it and being done with it.

Dr Rad 40:17
Yeah.

Dr G 40:18
Having said that they send more colonists to Velitrae

Dr Rad 40:21
If Diodorus Siculus is to be believed.

Dr G 40:24
Well, how many options do I have up my sleeve?

Dr Rad 40:28
I agree. Okay, so maybe what like a two or three?

Dr G 40:33
Well, look, maybe a one. Look, let's face it. They already had Velitrae.

Dr Rad 40:37
Right. Yeah. True.

Dr G 40:38
They said you're just adding people to it. Maybe if we believe Diodorus.

Dr Rad 40:42
Okay, one.

Dr G 40:45
Okay. The fourth category is Virtus.

Dr Rad 40:49
Okay, not really, we don't I mean, for all the military tributes with consular power that we have none of them mentioned by name apart from when they actually get the position.

Dr G 41:01
Yeah, none of them are coming through a standout characters who have led the charge lead the sage broken into the citadel, gained the glory gotten the triumph.

Dr Rad 41:12
I know.

Dr G 41:13
Livy's letting us down. There must be a real gap in his source material as well, at this point.

Dr Rad 41:17
Yeah, well, and I feel that the next year is going to be a big one for personalities. So maybe he's saving himself.

Dr G 41:26
Alright, so zero on virtus.

Dr Rad 41:29
Yep.

Dr G 41:29
And our final category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 41:34
Very little detail on this front. Dr. G. I mean, they're away at war, which they're either winning or not losing. So, I don't know.

Dr G 41:44
Wow.

Dr Rad 41:47
They're still perhaps feeling pretty pleased with themselves for this whole military pay situation, but…

Dr G 41:53
This is true, but we can't judge the citizens on their past efforts, really.

Dr Rad 42:00
No, I know. It's an awkward one.

Dr G 42:02
I think we don't know enough to really give them a score. So that's, in a way, this is not Rome's fault. We because we just simply don't know. It's not like there's any detail coming through of a conflict of the orders, or a levy, or citizens falling a battle or poor strategic decisions being made that leads to the loss of life.

Dr Rad 42:23
This is true, this is true. I mean –

Dr G 42:25
We don't have anything,

Dr Rad 42:26
We have the victory. And we have the fact that they capture the city and everything inside it, which presumably means there's some booty to be had. But even then there's no specific mentions. I don't know how we want to handle that.

Dr G 42:40
Well, I would definitely be taking the grain out of Artena, that citadel so that's going to be a win.

Dr Rad 42:46
Yes, exactly. That's what I need. But where's it going? Like who's getting it? They dividing it up amongst the men, Dr. G?

Dr G 42:53
Hmm, these are the things that we cannot account for. And I think by that kind of standard, if we want to be really generous, we could assume that those things are benefiting the citizens, in which case we might give them a two or something.

Dr Rad 43:06
Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. I'm happy to give them a two. All right. All right. So Dr. G, unfortunately, that means Rome, not doing so hot. They get a grand total of 9 out of 50 golden eagles.

Dr G 43:22
A solid loss.

Dr Rad 43:26
Not looking great, but next year will definitely be interesting, I think. So we'll have to see.

Dr G 43:29
I suspect they might be on the up and up.

Dr Rad 43:33
There's definitely going to be some action around they the question of Veii, yes.

Dr G 43:41
I'm looking forward to finding out what's coming up in 403.

Dr Rad 43:45
I'll see you then.

Dr G 43:54
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there's a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time if you're keen to chip in. You can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book, ‘Rex, The Seven Kings of Rome' at partialhistorians.com. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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It is not often that we are fortunate enough to get to chat to one of our amazing guests a second time, but sometimes the gods are just that kind. We sat down to speak to the one and only Dr Victoria Austen about Augustus’ mausoleum.

Special Episode – Augustus' Mausoleum

Dr Victoria Austen holds a MA and PhD from King’s College London. She has lectured in the Classics at the University of Winnipeg and is currently the Robert A. Oden, Jr. Postdoctoral Fellow for Innovation in the Humanities and Classics at Carleton College, Minnesota. Her monograph Analysing the Boundaries of the Roman Garden: (Re)Framing the Hortus’ was released in 2023 as part of the Bloomsbury Ancient Environments Series. Vicky has recently been speaking for the American Institute of Archaeology on gardens and commemoration.

‘The Mausoleum of Augustus’ from Pietro Santi Bartoli, Gli antichi sepolcri ii, 1727. courtesy of Carleton College Special Collections.

What is Augustus' mausoleum?

Augustus did not rest on his laurels after winning the Battle of Actium against Cleopatra and Mark Antony. He set about consolidating his political position and figuring out exactly what that would entail.

Augustus set about transforming the city itself as part of his political machinations. Some of his key monuments include the Ara Pacis, the Horologium Augusti (think giant sun dial), and the mausoleum.

He started construction on this tomb in 28 BCE and positioned it on the Campus Martius (Field of Mars). This is much earlier than you might expect. Augustus’ position was not unchallenged and there was still much to be decided regarding his status in Rome. Nonetheless, Augustus set about building this large circular mausoleum, intending to use it not just for himself, but his family.   

Eventually the tomb would house the remains of numerous members of Augustus' family, as well as the princeps himself. Names you might recognise include Agrippa (his BFF and the husband of his daughter Julia), Marcellus (his nephew), Octavia (his sister), and Gaius and Lucius (his adopted sons).

After Augustus’ death, his family continued to use the mausoleum. Livia (his wife), the emperors Tiberius and Claudius, Germanicus, Antonia Minor and Britannicus would all find their way to this monument.

However, there was not an open-door policy for anyone with Julio-Claudian blood. The mausoleum became a sort of litmus test of who had fallen from grace and would be punished with exclusion… forever! You might already have spotted that Julia, Augustus’ only biological child, and her daughter Julia, did not make the cut. Ouch! Nor did the emperors Caligula and Nero. You had to earn your spot.     

Donati, A. (1584-1640) Roma vetus ac recens, courtesy of Carleton College Special Collections.

What happened to the mausoleum?

As with so many ancient monuments, the mausoleum has been repurposed many times. Tune in to hear about the Soderini family and their resurrection of the space, as well as good old Mussolini, who just loved to forge connections between himself and figures like Augustus.

Things to Look Out For:

• Augustus getting BURNT by Dr Rad on numerous occasions.
• Good-natured tolerance from Drs A and G about afore-mentioned Augustan burns.
• Deep-seated longing to see inside the mausoleum.
• Discussion of the recent restoration project.
• The need to pay more attention to the plants and green spaces in the ancient world. Won’t someone think of the greenery???
• The importance of green spaces in urban environments in both ancient and modern times

Sound Credits

Our music is by the highly talented Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Automated Transcript

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Read. And

Dr G 0:30
I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 1:01
Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of the partial historians. Dr. Rad and myself, Dr. G are thrilled to welcome back Dr. Victoria Austen to the show. And you might remember her fantastic conversation with us a little while back now about Augustus and temporal space and representation. And today we're going to be looking at Augustus his mausoleum. So a quick bio. Dr. Victoria Austen holds an MA and a PhD from King's College London. She has lectured in the classics at the University of Winnipeg and is currently the Robert A Odin Junior Postdoctoral Fellow for innovation in the humanities and classics at Carleton College Minnesota. Her research interests span the Latin literature of the late Republic and early empire, ancient Roman gardens and landscapes race and ethnicity in the ancient world, the reception of classical myth and the integration of digital humanities into the classroom. Austen's monograph Analysing the Boundaries of the Roman Garden: Reframing the Hortus was released in 2023, as part of the Bloomsbury ancient environment series, and coming up, Vicky is currently partway through a series of talks for the American Institute of Archaeology on gardens and commemoration. Welcome back, Vicky.

Dr Victoria Austen 2:34
Yeah, it's so great to be back. I'm so so excited to talk more things, Augustus as we know, I'm a big fan.

Dr G 2:41
Me too. Dr. Rad is already

Dr Victoria Austen 2:44
Eye roll already.

Dr Rad 2:46
I was I was going to say, Look, I'm very happy to see you again, but less happy to see your friend. Look, you know what, I am going to embrace it because I have some fantastic dad jokes here. So Augustus is mausoleum, you might say that everyone in the Julio Claudian period is just dying to get in.

Dr Victoria Austen 3:14
I mean, I

Dr Rad 3:20
so Look, let's start with the basics. Dr. Austen, or Vicky, if I may be so what is this thing? How did it come about?

Dr Victoria Austen 3:30
Yeah, so this is basically where Augustus wants to be buried. bold move in that, you know, he creates it when he's still living like this is very much his project. It's not like something that people put up for him. He's like, No, I'm gonna create my own team structure. And I'm gonna model it on potentially one of the seven ancient wonders of the world. Because, you know, he never He doesn't do anything small. So this is why it's called the mausoleum of Augustus, because it's based on we think maybe the Mausolus tomb, which was one of the seven ancient wonders of the world. So timewise it was finished in 28 BCE. So this is, you know, still kind of pretty early on actually, in his principle, you know, when you think he was there for you know, good, good more 30 years or so. So he was he was thinking about his afterlife, very concerned about his commemoration.

Dr Rad 4:26
Yeah. Like, yeah, like an Egyptian ruler. Yeah, thing. He's just very focused on that end goal.

Dr Victoria Austen 4:34
And kind of like structurally as well. It's obviously it's very impressive. It's like this huge kind of concrete structure, which and concrete in itself is a kind of Roman innovation, which was kind of relatively still new at this time period. You know, they're still experimenting with oh, we can use this new material. So we can do round things instead of like, oh, square things. So it's this big kind of dark, circular structure. domed and it's planted kind of all the way around, we think to kind of emulate what create a kind of monumental version of a traditional elektrischen type tomb, which is called a timless, which is, you know, in its most primitive form, that would be kind of like just a mound of earth. That was kind of your tomb spot. So August just kind of seems to have taken that idea, and then just done it, you know, huge, huge monumental scale as as he likes to do with everything.

Dr Rad 5:29
It sounds extremely presumptuous. Yeah. Within keeping of his character, yes.

Dr G 5:36
Very much. So. And I'm particularly thinking about the date of 28 BCE, because this is right before 27, which is usually considered a landmark for him in terms of like sealing the deal on his power. And he's already out there being like, oh, no, guys, I am a big deal. I know it, you guys know it, I've killed everybody who hates me by now.

Dr Victoria Austen 5:57
And I think particularly because there's this idea of it's such a big structure that clearly he was thinking of it in terms of it wasn't just going to be for him, it was going to be for other family members. So it's like, it's going to be like a dynastic kind of monument in itself. And I think, like you said, the fact that he's creating that so early in his principles that kind of speaks to, oh, he may have been doing all of his, I'm just restoring the Republic schtick. But, you know, I'm beside he's like, No, actually, I'm going to create this huge monument to the my family, or my heirs. So like that idea of like the family, dynastic structure, I think is very telling that he's already creating a very obvious building and structure like super early.

Dr Rad 6:48
Really to be fair, he wasn't a well man. Well, no,

Dr Victoria Austen 6:52
I think I think that's part of it. He had so much anxiety over death. And you know, then all of his heirs keep dying, as we know, along the way,

Dr Rad 7:01
it came in handy.

Dr Victoria Austen 7:02
He didn't die, you know. So I think I think it also the early day also represents a bit of that anxiety over you know, I've got to start thinking about my death and what happens when I die. Like, pretty early on. Really? Yeah,

Dr Rad 7:18
definitely. Yeah, Look, that's

Dr G 7:20
tough, isn't it that anxiety and and also that monumental ism, what a fascinating character. Yeah, I don't understand Dr. Rad while you're not so interested. I

Dr Rad 7:29
am intrigued, but it's more of a fact that I'm like, Why can't people just see through him?

Dr Victoria Austen 7:37
This last time, like I like I love him to study. But doesn't mean I think he's a great guy. I also see through him.

Dr Rad 7:47
Yeah, I think it's well, I think it's more Dr. G. I'm talking to me, she she genuinely likes him.

Dr G 7:56
I think it's just because in the portraiture, he comes across as being relatively good looking. So I'm willing to forgive him from things. So, but that's just me being really basic. Yeah. But thinking about the mausoleum and its location, like To what extent is it sort of part of his broader sort of sense of building sort of like a topographical thing for himself in a Gustin sort of way of thinking about Rome? Yeah.

Dr Victoria Austen 8:20
And so I think I was actually talking about this very topic with my students, actually, last week, because we were, we were doing the Augustan period, and Roman Art and Archaeology. And I was, I was saying that one of his innovations really is, you know, late Republican building projects, like kind of Pompey's theatre complex, Julius Caesar had his forum. You know, it's this idea that you're kind of entering a bit of a zone that is, it's like the Pompey zone, or the Julius Caesar zone, and we're kind of entering those spaces, and it's framed by that individual power. But what Augustus does is he's like, all of Rome is now my zone. It's not just a small bar. It's like, I'm doing this everywhere. So again, like in terms of scale, that's what's kind of innovative and the mausoleum is part of the Campus Martius which he is one of his kind of three main areas in the city that he really focuses on for his redevelopment. So we have the mausoleum, but we also have the our pockets, which I spoke a lot about on the last time I was with you. And then there's also this monumental sundial as well the heartland and they're all very close together in this Campus Martius area and I think again, it speaks to this kind of projection of a new type of power, because you know, you have your mausoleum, which is thinking about kind of commemoration long term, but at a family kind of dynastic level, you've got the altar of peace, the our parkas eventually, which is, you know, commemorating I've bought peace to Rome for the first time. And then with the sundial, I think that's, that's particularly interesting because it kind of I think it's also symbolic that he is kind of not just In charge of space, but also his controlling time, as well as all these three monuments, kind of we're all working together kind of past, present, future, there's like this temporal element. And I think so you can't just think of the mausoleum, you know, as a static kind of isolated entity in itself, I think a lot of its meaning also comes from the fact that it's connected to these other very important Augusto monuments. And you have to imagine, if you're a Roman, you're walking through the Campus Martius, like, you're gonna be able to see all three of these things within a very short walk, you'll be able to see them from each other, like they're very, very close together,

Dr G 10:40
and this association with the Campus Martius, in particular, this idea that there is a whole Augustan precinct and there is a really long history of how the Campus Martius is used. And now it's being sort of it's evolving under Augustus is sort of building regime as well.

Dr Victoria Austen 10:56
Yeah, absolutely. And I think what, what I think is fascinating, and also just kind of very telling about the building project in the campus. Martius is it's very representative of so many things that will go sisters in that he's kind of seen kind of political figures kind of use art and architecture and space and these building projects, to project their own individual power, but they never had the opportunity to kind of extend that on mass scale. And so now he's in this position where he can start to do this, in a way he kind of takes all of the seeds that have been done at an individual level. And he's just putting it all together, doing it to a huge, huge scale, and just really hammering it home, like everywhere you go. There's this sense of Augustus kind of framing your experience of the city like you have to imagine that there's not many places like right in the core, where you're not far from an Augusten building project because if you're not in the Campus Martius you might be near the Palatine Hill, that's where his house is, or you're in the forum and he redevelop the forum. So there's like, everywhere you go, there's this kind of just presence of him. And kind of framing your experience of the whole city, I think, which is very, very innovative. I

Dr Rad 12:14
think of him. It sounds like my waking nightmare.

Dr G 12:19
You're surrounded on

Dr Rad 12:21
escape. But I do appreciate I do appreciate that long before Doc Brown and Marty McFly, Augustus was thinking about the space time continuum and how to disrupt it. Yes,

Dr Victoria Austen 12:31
he really was. And I think there's there's a famous that kind of famous theory, I suppose about these kinds of three, three monuments, or kind of like working together in the campus. Martius is it has been suggested that the shadow of the sundial would go directly through the entrance of the Ara Pacis on Augustus' birthday. So it's like, yeah, it's basically I have conquered time, like I am in charge. And I think, you know, Julius Caesar, his uncle had her redone the calendar. And so the sundial was now with the Julian calendar in mind. And so again, it's just this Yeah, it's the way that space and time and with the mausoleum, there's then this idea of like an afterlife. Like, even though I'm not there, you're going to still be thinking about me. And it's the same with our parkas. You know, it was set up with this annual sacrifice in mind, and that's going to keep going on even when Augustus dies. So there's this again, it's like a kind of cyclical, eternal presence. I think that he's trying to establish there.

Dr Rad 13:37
I'll give it to him. He certainly does pay attention to detail and it suddenly hit me that Dr. G being an absolute Virgo. This must be what appeals to her. Oh my god.

Dr Victoria Austen 13:47
This is this is the connection. It's I'm

Dr G 13:54
it is all beginning to make sense. I use just so organised. He's thought of everything.

Dr Rad 14:01
I get it now and I will stop giving you crap about it.

Dr Victoria Austen 14:06
We can't help it. It's in the stars. Absolutely.

Dr Rad 14:09
Yeah. And I Look, this is probably my favourite part of Augustus has more saline to talk about because I mean, I'm sorry, there's no other way to say it. But he's such a dick, in that it's very much about who's allowed in who's not. It's my club. I'm gonna control that. Are you on the VIP list? Or are you not So who gets buried in this thing in the end and who gets left out because they've done something to upset him?

Dr Victoria Austen 14:35
Oh, that's a really good question. I'm trying to think exactly. Who was in there. I know the last person that is in there is Nerva actually, but in terms of in terms of like the Julian accordions, I don't know who is who

Dr Rad 14:49
we know that famously Julia obviously,

Dr Victoria Austen 14:53
does not. I bet she doesn't get in there.

Dr Rad 14:55
She does not say for those of you who haven't listened to our Millions of discussions about Augustus Julia is his one and only actual child, you'd think she'd be a shoo in. But no,

Dr Victoria Austen 15:08
yeah, but no, she's, she's morally Not, not on. Yeah, you would

Dr G 15:13
think in the end that, that in depth that he might allow it, you know, like, there'll be some sort of forgiveness, but he's absolutely no.

Dr Victoria Austen 15:21
And I think it really speaks to like the harshness of that like relationship and that he like, the the ability to, like, cut off the personal from the political that like, I'm, again, this speaks to its a dynastic monument, which is different from a family monument. And obviously, there are times when that overlaps, but the fact that as you said, it's not a, it's not by default that you get in there, like there are choices being made.

Dr G 15:53
And we see some like tragic moments, because obviously, Augustus is thinking about his own mortality, but he's also spending a lot of his time trying to figure out who's going to sort of come into place after him and a whole bunch of them die early. So like, my seller sends up in their Gaius and looses end up in there, you know, and it's like, in a way, despite the fact that Augustus is probably a terribly power hungry kind of individual, you have to feel a little bit of compassion for the fact that he's burying a lot of his young, male relatives that he had great hopes for. Yeah. And

Dr Victoria Austen 16:26
I think there is this sense that, you know, again, this may be speaks to why this was such an important building for him and that anxiety over the succession, you know, his entire project, it was only ever going to reach its complete fruition, if there was some kind of succession because the, you know, if that had not been secured, then there's nothing to say that you couldn't have just like gone back to a republic system, like, you know, it's not until that moment that Tiberius actually comes in, and he becomes like the next emperor, that it's like, oh, we can actually say now that we're doing something different here than just like a one man thing. So I think I think it's kind of possibly underestimated the amount of anxiety around that and just pick Yeah, he keeps picking these people, and then it's like a curse and then they die. Like, I choose you, and now you're dead. Like

Dr Rad 17:26
at the touch of death is like when Augusto says you're gonna succeed me.

Dr Victoria Austen 17:30
And then he's just left with Tiberius by the end.

Dr G 17:33
So it says explains Tiberius is reluctance you've seen the pattern. And he's like, just say, No,

Dr Rad 17:38
yeah, don't don't Look at me. Yeah. But I mean, it to be fair, to be fair, because I suppose it functioned in this way during Augustus lifetime. It's not just during Augustus, his lifetime that it is used as like a who's in favour and who's not kind of monument, that whole dynasty continue to use it in this way. Yeah.

Dr Victoria Austen 18:01
Yeah. So again, it's like that idea of so much. It's when we're thinking about commemoration. And I think this idea of like memory, and who is allowed to be part of that memory, like so many, that is a political choice that is being made along the way. And I think I think that's why I'm kind of fascinated with this temporal aspect and the the playing of time, because, you know, commemoration in general, it's something you're you're doing in the present, but it obviously engages with the past, because it's about kind of ancestors, but it also looks, Augustus is kind of looking to the future when he creates it, because it's this idea of any kind of ironically ends up burying their, like, who would have been the future and then the future is kind of like changing in real time. And so I think there's this really interesting, dynamic there with time. And, you know, one of the things that I'm particularly interested in, obviously, thinking about Gardens is that, you know, it's created with lots of plants and greenery around it, which I think, again, speaks to this temporal kind of cyclical aspect that, you know, the plants are always there, but they, so they kind of are the same, but they're not because they're continuing because nature is continually evolving. So it's like, it kind of appears to be this ever present feature, but that that feature isn't itself kind of always moving. It's not static. And so I think, again, he kind of taps into the power of plants, I suppose in that way to really enhance that kind of temporal aspect of the commemoration.

Dr Rad 19:38
Yeah, and it is kind of interesting to think that a lot of the people that end up getting buried in there are younger members of the of the dynasty, which I think kind of speaks to the fact that if you're if you grow up to be an adult, if you live long enough, you're gonna tick somebody off. Someone's gonna

Dr Victoria Austen 19:57
Yeah, all the all the young ones, it's just like didn't have enough time to do anything?

Dr Rad 20:01
No, no, they were like, Well, you were five. We didn't. We

Dr G 20:06
didn't hate you. Yeah, except for Agrippa Postumus. Yes, you know, there's always the exception.

Dr Victoria Austen 20:12
He's, he's, you know, he's, he's okay. He doesn't annoy anyone.

Dr G 20:19
But I getting back to this aspect of plants. So when we think about the Roman architectural landscape, it tends to be the case that people talk about the buildings a lot. And sometimes trees get mentioned. So in people's like, sort of imagination of that space of Rome, it's kind of like marble structures, clean streets, you know, it's all happening. There's carts and everything everywhere. And there's not necessarily a lot of room or space to think about how nature is incorporated into some of that, but with Augustus is mausoleum, there is a deliberate incorporation of nature into parts of the structure. And I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to that. Yeah.

Dr Victoria Austen 21:00
And I think the mausoleum is like a microcosm of what is going on in the Campus Martius, in general, in that there's this idea of, rather than how our modern eyes might see it, as you said, it's like a series of individual monuments and the monuments that comes first. And that's the kind of thing that you focus on. And then maybe ideas of plantings and stuff are more peripheral, or you're like, Oh, sure, they planted some trees. But I think we need to kind of invert that idea. And think of the Campus Martius itself is this huge kind of landscaped green kind of Park, almost like a kind of sacred grove, the sacral Adeleke type landscape, and within that are dotted a series of monuments. So I feel like actually, we need to think of it as the monuments are kind of part of this broader, kind of sacred esque type landscape, as opposed to, there are these monuments, and then there happens to be a few plantings around it. And I think that's really crucial to kind of understanding the experience of the Campus Martius in general, because, you know, Augustus wants people to experience the sights and be there. And so you, you're giving this kind of broad, open green space to a population who if you're living in the city of Rome, you know, you don't have your own garden. I mean, I think you have Roman Gardens is like from Pompeii, where you've got these individual houses, and they each have their own little nice courtyard garden. If you're living in Rome, you're in a stuffy apartment complex, sharing one room with, you know, 10,010 other people, and you don't have access to nature in that way. And so these kinds of more, quote, unquote, public areas become really important. And I think Augustus really understood the importance of like, putting greenery and kind of open space as part of that, because it creates this distance, I suppose, from their very urban, maybe small scale reality. And then suddenly, you can go to this wide open space that you're very much aware, I presume that Augustus is kind of its public, but you know, he's allowing us to be here, in that he's opened it up in this way. But it's just dotted by all of these reminders of Augustus being there. So I think, I think the plantings are actually, we shouldn't think of them as being, you know, marginal, I think actually, that's kind of like, that's the main thing. And then the monuments are within that. Interesting,

Dr G 23:39
interesting. All right, I will hold on to these thoughts because you're giving me food for thought. And now and, and I'm thinking about the kind of potential for a natural fallacy to emerge that somehow Augustan power is immersed and is part of and it's coming from nature. And but I won't go too far down that path that is an unformed thought. No,

Dr Victoria Austen 24:02
I completely agree because like so much of his imagery, and like we spoke about this on the previous episodes, so much of his imagery and kind of this connection to the gods he he created through the use of symbolic plants like plants were plants as symbols were so central to his kind of image image making in that way. And in fact, on the mausoleum, we don't have much of the kind of decoration that would would have gone on the exterior. It wasn't just like plain concrete, there would have been kind of marble decoration. And we know that either side of the entrance way. There were kind of carved marble panels that featured Laurel and like this is very probably symbolic of the fact that he has two Laurel trees either side, you know either side of the entrance to its house, which itself is meant to mimic the use of Laurel trees outside of religious buildings. And you know, the Laurel is associated with Apollo Augustus sees himself as Apollo. You know, even on coins, there's just these two Laurel trees and it's like that's an Augustan coin, like that's a symbol for him. And so I think the fact that it's like consciously on his mausoleum, like flanking the entrance, again, it kind of speaks to this idea that he's kind of harnessing these planty symbols. And and it's not by accident. There's like these repeated patterns. And so, yeah, with these two Laurel trees, it's like they're at my mausoleum. They're at my house. They're on coins. I wear them in my trial for crowns. You know, it's like, this is my plant. It's effing everywhere.

Dr Rad 25:39
Yeah, Branding! Well, I mean, this, this is this is not quite the same thing. But there is also that idea that comes through or Gustus that urban city life is not what made room great, it's an eight shades, the rural existence, it's being connected to the land and agricultural practice and that sort of thing as well, which is not quite the same thing. But

Dr Victoria Austen 26:05
But I think it's part of it, because I mean, the fact that he's doing this in the Campus Martius, which in itself is like representative of this kind of like it's like original kind of public type land. There's a lot of kind of literary by, say a lot, there's pieces of literary evidence from this kind of late Republican into the Augustan period, where one of the kind of moral tropes that kind of comes up is, there's a lot of anxiety about the loss of kind of sacred landscapes in the context of the Civil War. And so I think he plays a you know, he's a smart move, he's creating a new sacred landscape within his marshes, and he's like, I am at the centre of it. So my guess is, and again, that's, you know, about as close to declaring yourself a god as you can get.

Dr Rad 26:54
Like, I think I think I'm also sensing one of the reasons why I've perhaps instinctively disliked Augustus and that's the Australian in me is very uncomfortable with someone who's so openly being like, yeah, I am at the centre of everything. I am the shit.

Dr G 27:10
You want to some tall poppy syndrome.

Dr Rad 27:14
There is actually honestly, it is a cultural thing that Australians aren't comfortable with ambitious people.

Dr Victoria Austen 27:22
Interesting. Okay. Yeah. But I think yeah, Augustus would not fit in there then.

Dr G 27:29
Definitely not.

Dr Rad 27:31
I actually to come back to our earlier thing, I just thought her out of interest, I would have a have a Look at the list of people that ended up making it in his lifetime. So obviously, we know Marcellus Yeah, he's, yeah, he he's intended as numero uno, who unfortunately died very, very young and unexpectedly, the son of his sister Octavia Octavia. Of course, yes.

Dr Victoria Austen 27:56
There is in there. Yeah. So it's not just limited to men as well. We know it's quite like they allow he does allow some women in there. Yeah. Well, I

Dr Rad 28:03
mean, I get Octavia because after all, she's like the opposite of Julia the elder his daughter, and that she's very dutiful. Does what what is asked of her, you know, does her bid for the succession? Agrippa who is not a blood relative? Of course.

Dr G 28:21
No, but they're like brothers in that. Yeah. Say?

Dr Rad 28:24
Anyone deserves it. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I've asked this would have been Augustus without Agrippa. But he acknowledged that that much. And then of course, my man, Tiberius after Augustus. His death obviously, yeah. ends up in there, but so do people like Germanicus? Yeah. Yeah. Who we might expect as well. And Antonia Minor, huh? Yeah. Mother of Claudius Britannicus.

Dr G 28:55
Oh, yeah. Poor Britannicus.

Dr Rad 28:57
Tragically murdered by one of his own relatives, which is why it's kind of weird that he ends up in this really

Dr G 29:01
well, first I killed him. And then I put him in the mausoleum because that's the right thing to do.

Dr Rad 29:06
Exactly. Yeah. And, of course, of course, Claudius himself. Now I'm just going to point out, we are missing Of course, yeah. Nero, and he doesn't he's not in there. No, no, he's definitely not.

Dr G 29:21
So being a relative is not enough to get you in there it is, being an emperor

Dr Rad 29:25
isn't enough to get you on.

Dr Victoria Austen 29:27
And again, this is this is the point about that. A dynastic monument. We think of it because I think we're so maybe skewed by our idea of like modern monarchy, which is very kind of like family oriented, oriented and this idea that then it's the family and the dynastic part, they're not one in the same and obviously when it ends as well overlap, but you know, no one is there's no father son succession in the junior accordions, it seems, it's that's true. He's alive and who would we not want to merge I think you'll be the next one.

Dr G 30:02
Congratulations, you survived. Yes.

Dr Rad 30:05
It would be fascinating if the modern British monarchy was run along the same lines who's alive? And who do we not want to? Pick? Yeah, yeah. Oh,

Dr G 30:15
that would open up the field goodness not really worth it. So thinking about the mausoleum, not just in the Augustan period, but it does have a huge legacy over time. Like there's obviously part of the structure still remains to this day. And it's not like people after Ancient Rome or like, you know what, never going in there don't know what that's about. It was definitely it had many afterlives if you. And I'm wondering if you can take us through some of the ones that have really appealed to you when you've been thinking about this structure.

Dr Victoria Austen 30:47
I mean, I think this is this is what I found so fascinating. And this, this really started as a very small I was like, Well, what did kind of happen after the Augustan period, and it has opened up this whole new world of research to me, and now I'm looking at Pope's, and Who's In Who's in charge of Rome in the pre modern period. And it's, it's fascinating, it's but it's not like a linear kind of journey. It, yeah, it kind of comes and goes in these cycles in a really, really fascinating way. So as I think I just said, like the last burial that we can kind of officially associate with it is Nerva in 96 CE, and then it kind of, we have very, very fragmentary and limited evidence from when from that kind of peak use period as a burial plot. And then it really kind of like drops off. And we don't have like a tonne of information, it pops up in the 10th century. It's called the mons Augusta. By Gregorius, I think it is. And he refers to the site as this, like Mons Augusta. And then in the 12th century, we have this really interesting reference in the Mirabilia. Urbis Romae, which is essentially like a guidebook to the ancient city. And it's referred to as the Augustan. But it also includes this really interesting legend, which is actually not found in the ancient sources, but it's described in the Mirabilia, and it says that the mound itself has been is special, and people still, like kind of go to it and worship it. And it's still a special site, because he talks about the author of the memorabilia of that Augustus bought mounds of earth from all different parts of the empire, and put it on top of his put it as part of the plantings of the cool, so fascinating. And like, I wish we had any kind of hardly any hint of this in the ancient sources, but I mean, the, they obviously got this idea from somewhere in the mirror, but it's discussed as something it's like, this is the well known site that you're gonna go visit and you know, said that Augustus bought these mounds of earth from all over and like, that is such an imperial statement, again, this like, control of space and time, he's like, I'm literally bringing the Earth from all of the places and putting it on my tomb where

Dr Rad 33:13
I was gonna say sounds so on brand

Dr Victoria Austen 33:16
on land. And so I think it's also just really interesting that in the mirror abelia, it's like, the earthy part, is seen as the most kind of famous part of the commemoration. It's not the structure, he like talks about the Earth as being like, this central thing that they're gonna Look at, which again, when I think about these kind of the temporal aspects of plantings is and why people use them in commemoration, again, it's like it's always there. But it's changed over time. So yeah, that's a really fascinating little reference in the 12th century. And then we basically have like, nothing, and we don't really know what happened. This is a contentious time and in pre modern Rome, you know, the city in itself goes through various phases or kind of decline, and then people try and, you know, put more effort into it and all this kind of stuff. And you know, there's lots of anxiety kind of from the 12th to the 14th centuries about, oh, Rome, it was so great. And now we've let it go to ruin and, and you can kind of think about the mausoleum in that way. What we do then know is that then in the 16th century, when you know the Pope's they've been away in France, and then they come back to Rome, and they start to like really rejuvenate the city. And so as part of that kind of regeneration in the 16th century, it gets the site in itself gets bought by an elite gentleman called miss your Soderini is part of this Florentine family. And they're like, We want to invest in Rome and so we're gonna buy we're gonna buy some ancient sites. We're gonna make our mark in Rome and and The Soderini family they buy the mausoleum. And this is the kind of thing that I've been looking at the most is that they then Soderini turns it into his own sculpture gallery slash garden. So he kind of uncovers it. And there's this amazing letter, I'm going to bring it up so I can read it to you from 1549. And there's an Italian Giovanni Battista Vicini, and he writes to his friend, and he says, I am writing this letter to you in the middle of the tomb of Augustus, which my once in your Soderini has undertaken to redo and he has transformed it into a rather lovely garden with some rooms there for eating. And this is his past time, this place called the mausoleum is now a vegetable garden. And there are some fine salad leaves here. He's using the language of like a vegetable garden and leaves, but he's talking about the sculpture. So he's like, again, super interesting for me in terms of the language because he's playing on that dynamic, which Augustus did as well, of like, we're being all rustic, and, and old school, and we're tapping into old school nature. And he's describing these very aesthetic kind of sculptures, as like the rustic salad leaves. And so in terms of like commemoration, for me, this is really interesting as well, because by turning it, he has his like, private collection of ancient sculptures, and then they're being displayed inside the tomb. So it's like, it becomes like a site of commemoration to the ancient world in general, but also still to Augustus, because they still refer to it as the mausoleum of Augustus. But then it's also now starting to commemorate sort of renew his own identity, as well as like this elite kind of culture, like, I can collect all of these ancient sculptures. And again, it's a private collection, but then he opens it up to the public, and it becomes this site, it then again, it gets featured in a load of guidebooks from like the 16th to the 18th century. As like, this is a place to go like you got to go to the mausoleum. You got to see the sculptures. And yeah, so just think that's really fascinating that he like, kind of took took the outside plantings from the Augustan period. It's kind of turn the concept inside out to some extent now the gardens inside, and it's got all of his quote unquote salad leaves for us to Look.

Dr Rad 37:33
Well, you Look, I'm gonna thank you, because you've just given me a great idea for Dr. G's next birthday, so I'm going to start saving so that I can buy the mausoleum and turn it into a little place for her, you know, little thing with you. Honestly,

Dr Victoria Austen 37:47
I want someone to buy the mausoleum that will actually let me in there because I had such high this summer when I was there. And I met Dr. G. And we were like, yes, we're here. We're gonna do what Augustan things. And then once again, the mausoleum was closed, it's close to the public, because they are doing even more renovation work. I was gonna

Dr G 38:07
say there was a moment a few years ago, pre COVID, where it had reopened. Ah, I'm so excited because I was just about to go. And then I had to cancel the trip because of COVID. Thank you very much. And then by the time I could get back, it was closed again. I was like, Oh, no.

Dr Victoria Austen 38:23
I was like, This is my moment. And, and what's really fascinating though, one thing I did notice, when I was there in the summer is around the kind of construction they obviously have kind of barriers and on the barriers they have highlighted, like key dates in the mausoleum's history. And they've got dates related to Augustus. Obviously, they've got dates related to Mussolini, which we can come on to. But then also one of the key dates in this timeline is this 1549 day they actually have it as as a key kind of date. So this Soderini garden, I'm kind of interested when it's reopened if they're going to make a bit more of that part of its history in terms of like exhibitions or something like that, because there is like not a lot written on this. The kind of want one kind of key article kind of speaks more about trying to identify the sculptures that were in it, as opposed to like thinking about it as I am as this kind of continuation of garden, space and commemoration. But I think yeah, I was really surprised to see that the government or the kind of museum like it had this 1549 date on as part of like, the kind of key timeline and I was like, because I'm pretty sure not many people know about that. So yeah,

Dr G 39:41
I think it speaks to what is this broader legacy because there is something about circular buildings. It sounds like a segway. But there is something about the attraction of circular buildings or oval shaped buildings, which because they're quite rare. In terms of the architecture, generally speaking, they tend to stand out and they tend to garner attention. But this also affects how they might be repurposed and how people think about their repurposing as well. And so there is something about the visual of having a circular gallery, that you can kind of wind your way through and around. And that allows sort of ready to do this moment where he's like, Look, I'm a bit like Augustus here, and I've created this space, which allows you to engage with time and, and all of this kind of stuff as well. And perhaps there are some replanting is going on, who knows.

Dr Victoria Austen 40:37
And again, we don't have any evidence for this particular like the remnants of how Santorini had utilised it, there's no physical evidence of it, because as we can go on to like, it's then it goes through other phases of redevelopment, and it gets buried and built on and attached to and all of this stuff, but we do have a lot of engravings from these guidebooks are very consistent in terms of the imagery. And so I think we do have a pretty good idea of what it may be Look like. And so like, I'm looking at one on my screen now, and I can send you on for the for the website, is this idea of you've got this kind of walkway up to the front, and it's flanked by ancient statues, and then you kind of go in through the entrance way. And then the interior, it kind of looks like the sculptures were kind of round the edge. And then you've got like a planted series of kind of walkways, and like box hedges in the interior. And as you said, it's like you're guiding, you know, different pathways. And you're maybe you know, leisurely strolling round. And yeah, I just think it's, it's really, really fascinating I and yeah, just the kind of consistency of the engravings, I think, from this couple of centuries, I think we can get a fairly good idea of what it maybe looks like. But for some reason, from the 18th, kind of century onwards, it goes into another period of decline. And we don't really get much going on then until kind of, we get a period of like 100 years of kind of decline. And then we've got the next kind of key, infamous phase, I think, is when Mussolini comes along. I'm again, in terms of like commemoration and memory and identity. You can see this building is being used by different people at different times. You know, Augustus does it. Santorini is doing it in his own way. And then you've got Mussolini coming in. And his whole shtick is that, oh, it's gone into disrepair. Again, this idea of it being like buried and earthen. It's like undercover. And then miscellaneous thing was he comes along, and he's got his pickaxe, and he's like, I am uncovering or revealing the ancient city and it's like a make Rome, great, again, kind of idea. He's like, we have let our history go into disrepair. And so the Campus Martius area for him, become central to his whole kind of reorganisation of Rome. And like, this is an area that had been kind of turned into almost like a residential district. And he basically just cleanse like cleared it out completely. You know, people didn't get a choice. It's like, No, I'm going in there. I'm getting rid of all of the residential stuff. And yeah, I actually went down a rabbit hole a few weeks ago on YouTube and found some amazing YouTube footage of, I guess they were kind of like those, like Italian Government, like type newsreel type things that would have been shown. And it's like, here's Mussolini, like going and he's like walking up this what looks like this kind of mound of earth. And he's got his pickaxe, and it's like, Mussolini is revealing the mausoleum of Augustus. And it's like, caught on camera. And this is one of the things that he goes to and it becomes part of his whole kind of memory and, and his use of the ancient city, and recovering quote, unquote, the ancient city to regain this kind of power for himself, kind of again, shows this idea of like, the space time continuum.

Dr Rad 44:22
Well, Look, this will be familiar to many students of ancient history in Australia, and probably other places, but I know the syllabus in Australia, because we have close Look at the way that Mussolini and his cronies are involved in Pompeii and Herculaneum. Okay, so yeah, that the idea that Mussolini obviously is connecting to ancient rumours, propaganda, basically for his own regime will be will be familiar territory to them. Yeah,

Dr Victoria Austen 44:51
um, I mean, I don't think it's not unsurprising that he also really wanted to uncover Augustan monuments, like He's my guy like, yeah.

Dr Rad 45:03
Like, you're-a speaking my language. Yeah.

Dr Victoria Austen 45:05
You know, he would probably have called him a fascist, it doesn't come as a surprise to me that like, that is that is a particular area and like he wanted to do with the Ara Pacis as well, like he actually bought. He's the, I mean, he's the reason why we have it all nicely kind of reconstructed in the nice, beautifully air conditioned museum that it's in now. I mean, it's, it's just kind of fascinating to me that, that Augustus, these Augustan, monuments are kind of they keep being reused, repurposed. And for different forms of memory and kind of like tapping into memory, I think. Yeah.

Dr Rad 45:44
And like, it seems obviously objectionable that someone like Mussolini would be able to do this. But at least as you say, there is some preservation and interest involved, because I remember the only time I've ever been able to see it, it had fallen, as you say, into one of those states of disrepair. When I was there, which would have been in the early 2000s. It was covered in rubbish, I was told it was even unsafe to be in the area, because it was used as kind of a temporary refuge for people who maybe didn't have anywhere else to go. And so yeah, I mean, not that I'm saying Mussolini was a good thing, or that Fascism is a good thing. Yeah, he'd be very clear on that. But there is some good ideas behind the idea of governments investing in heritage. Yeah.

Dr Victoria Austen 46:30
And I think I'm, I'm kind of fascinated by the fact that, I don't know whether it's because of the size, or it's just kind of so unwieldy, or people don't really know what to do with it. But you would think, as such a key Augustan monument, that it would not have maybe gone through these periods of decline. I feel like it's one of the least well known Augustan monuments, probably because so few people have actually been able to like engage with it in any way. But it was like so sent like, To him, it would have been so central, he had been very disappointed at the lack of the deterioration. But, but then not

Dr G 47:11
to mention that Hadrian's mausoleum on the other side sort of now has precedent.

Dr Victoria Austen 47:18
So there's this idea that like, why, why did it fall into disrepair? And this is kind of the frustrating thing about this kind of gap in the evidence that we have from, I guess, like from the Imperial period, up until when it kind of crops back up in the in the pre Modern Period. I'm just kind of intrigued as to why why was it allowed to get into that state? Yeah, that compared to other buildings, that that's what doesn't make sense to me? No, I mean, part of me wonders, one thing I do want to Look into is that, I think as well, possibly the area that it's in the Campus Martius obviously, one of the things that good older gripper did was, you know, putting in this drainage system, which allowed them to build there in the first place. So close to the river. But it does, it has suffered over time from a lot of flooding. And I have to wonder, like, was a famous flood, I think, in the 11th, or the 12th century of the Tiber. And I have to wonder, like, whether that's part of why it got into this state of disrepair because of its location, and then if there was flooding and that kind of thing. So that might be part of it. But But yeah, it's kind of interesting how when it does get rejuvenated, it's always in the same kind of way like this. They're kind of using the Augusto model, but then doing their own kind of thing with it, which I think is really interesting

Dr Rad 48:48
evidence. It is really weird, as you say, because if we think about what Agassiz is doing here, as being a little bit similar to like, what an Egyptian Pharaoh would do is tend to thinking about, you know, long term, where am I going to end up what kind of monument do I want? You know, how am I going to use it design etc. I mean, the Egyptian government does not neglect that, you know, the pyramids, you know, to be on those are all the tombs in the Valley of the Kings like it's, if I mean, if I think about we've just had the Ramses exhibit, what sort going on actually at the time of recording to the Australian Museum here and going to that it was like being in a mosh pit. There were so many people crammed in to see this stuff. And it's like people care about this kind of stuff. And it certainly not neglected. So it is a weird thing to overlook, especially because I'm something we haven't really mentioned. It was weird to have people buried inside the city of Rome to have to have human remains inside the city that is rare in this particular culture.

Dr Victoria Austen 49:48
Yeah, I think that is again, that kind of speaks to this kind of bold, the initial bold statement that Augustus is making in is just it's not just in The location in relation to his other monuments, which we've already talked about, but as you said, the fact of having this, like grand burial monument, so, like, so close to the centre of like the central air, like, I mean, people kind of still want to think of the Campus Martius it's like, oh, it's like a little bit out there, but I'm like, it's still very set. Like it's not, it's not the suburbs like, it's

Dr G 50:24
like, Guys, it's an easy walk from the forest. You're gonna be fine.

Dr Victoria Austen 50:29
Yeah, you know, you can have a nice, you can have a Sunday stroll at the Campus Martius no problem. But But yeah, just kind of that in itself of that statement of, again, it speaks to his arm doing things differently, that he places it so centrally, you know? Yeah. Very interesting. Definitely.

Dr Rad 50:50
So broadly speaking, after having looked at the mausoleum and the Augustus context, and then looking about the legacy of that and the reuse of it over time, what do you feel we can learn by looking at this particular monument? Yeah,

Dr Victoria Austen 51:04
I mean, I think it for me, it's interesting on many levels, but I think currently the kind of things that I'm most interested in this idea of the kind of reuse of ancient monuments in lighting, and how, how they in themselves, can take on new ideological meanings, whether that be on a personal level, like Santorini, or a political level, like Mussolini, this idea of monuments in themselves, the kind of multi valence and the ever changing nature of like, how these monuments are received and what they mean. And I think this is like such an interesting, neat case study in how you've got this one thing. And it's like so many different things all over. I mean, I haven't even said like, it was also the site of a bullfighting ring at one point, I mean, that

Dr G 52:02
how did we skip over that,

Dr Victoria Austen 52:05
that kind of like continual reuse, and, and this, this kind of cyclical nature of like decline and regeneration of monuments and reuses, I think, is a really nice case study of of that. And then also my, my idea, my focus on on gardens and landscapes. Again, it really speaks to me of this need to not think of the kind of monuments as like physically monumental structures, and then kind of maybe plants or plantings or landscape as being this kind of marginal kind of nice to have thing. I think we really underestimate the importance of the collaboration of those two things. And I think we tend to think of things that have that relationship hierarchically, with monuments, like the thing. And then, oh, we've got some nice, like gardens and stuff that we may be looking at. Whereas I think the more I'm looking at the ancient world, and even kind of later receptions, the more I think that we shouldn't be thinking about these hierarchically, and instead in conversation with one another, and again, I just think the Muslims are really fascinating example of, of that trend. And so I think it can teach us, you know, quite a lot about those two broad ideas.

Dr Rad 53:27
Well, I mean, that's a very good point, because I think what we see increasingly in modern eras is a neglect of the natural world and the importance of that to ourselves, to our peril, basically, I

Dr Victoria Austen 53:40
mean, you have to think about, I mean, when I, when I lived in Winnipeg, a lot of a lot of people would always comment like, the downtown it had like, no trees or like plantings and like that, that conversation around like urban forestry. And like that idea of, we need to we, we created these urban environments that were like so devoid of nature. And now everyone's recognising the need that we actually need to put it back in. And I think the Romans were ahead of the game in that in that they, you know, they were not, they were not afraid to kind of just because it's an quote unquote, urban area. That doesn't mean it's devoid of nature. And I think, again, we've kind of thought of these two things as in our modern frameworks with thinking of these things very separately. But I think I'm kind of hopeful that with this idea of replanting, and kind of urban forestry and putting plants back into more traditionally urban environments, I think is a move a move in a in a more positive direction, because I think we kind of lost that idea that we can have both at the same time.

Dr Rad 54:48
Yeah, well, I think that's comes to that. That very popular idea of room being a city of marble and it's, no, that's just one part of it. And it's the same thing for us in Sydney. I mean, there are places like in Western Sydney and that sort of thing where we're recognising increasingly for mental health to help with, you know, heat waves and that sort of thing, it's really important to integrate nature into, you know, places where people are living, you can't just have brick and concrete. No,

Dr Victoria Austen 55:15
I don't mean Yeah, thinking about, like, the heat in itself. I mean, like, when you're just surrounded by concrete it is, it's like so much more oppressive than Yeah, if there's like, the minute you get into a bit of nature by some trees. And so you got to think of like the climate of Rome, like, this is part of the enjoyment of this area that Augustine created in like, it wouldn't have been nice if it was literally just like, I'm like, You're not gonna pave the entire Campus Martius in marble, and I mean, like parts of it were, but it just makes so much more sense to have this kind of collaboration of the natural and the, the ornamental.

Dr Rad 55:54
Yeah, I'm just picturing a lot of Romans like, you know, running along in their sandals and slipping around when it rains.

Dr G 56:03
Certainly, there was some grass around here. So to wrap this conversation up, and thinking about the way in which there is a tendency today, and maybe through time as well, the desire to restore structures to honour their original purpose, why they were first built. So Augustus is mausoleum has never been forgotten as being related and connected to Augustus through all of that time. And though people have reused it in various ways, such as the galleries and the bullfighting, and things like that there was that recognition that it did have this original purpose, it was related to Augustus. And now when we see the restoration work that's underway today with the structure, it is really about that gustan period of its history, and not so much about the things that came after it, or at least, it doesn't seem to be that way. However, I'd be curious to see what it looks like if they ever let me. So I'm interested in what are some of the implications you see in this sort of contemporary desire for restoration to original purpose? Well,

Dr Victoria Austen 57:09
I think there's such a fine line to be worn with that, particularly with the Mausoleum of Augustus, again, it's kind of an interesting case study for that conversation, because we actually don't know what it really looked like in its original format. Like, we have an idea, but because of all of the many layers of rebuilding and reuse, like it is actually impossible from the archaeological record, to actually figure out what the structure would have been like. And so most of the time, we're relying on the description from strijbos geography, which talks about that there's this monumental structure, and it's planted and, and all of this kind of stuff. And then there are these kind of all of the reconstructions have been based on that. And also, on its relationship, potentially as a model for then Hadrian's mausoleum. So, originally, like, there's this idea of it being this kind of multi tiered structure. And that's what people think of when they they try and trying to kind of recreate the original Augustan context. But we don't actually have we can't definitively say, based on the archaeology, if it was a multi tiered structure, because we've only got the base level of it. So I think it's a really interesting study and like projection of when we can't know the original, like, what then are we trying to create? Like, what? I struggle with them? Like, why do we need to actually know what it may have exactly Look like, I think there's often like this idea of like, we need to know what it actually looked like. So we can reconstruct it or like, show what it was, and you're getting that, quote, unquote, original sense of the monument. But we will never know the original like, because it's framed in the landscape in a completely different type of way, like the way we are engaging with it. We now are engaging with these, with these monuments, based on all of the layers of history, and we're coming to modern lens, like I said, very hard for people to think about it as nothing more than like a monumental structure. Like they're not thinking about the trees. And I mean, part of my research is like, you know, we're trying to if we are obsessed with the original, then we need to try and get back to well, like, how would they actually be viewing it? So I think sometimes we can get a bit caught up in trying to find some kind of essence, to individual pieces that we're like trying to hold on to and I think, you know, I think as humans we want that certainty and stability of like, we can say, this is what it looked like for people walking around in the Augustan period, and this is what they would have, quote unquote I experienced but you know, when we're moving through space and time, like that's a, we're just totally different individuals in that way. So. So I think it's important to recognise or try and figure out what it would have originally been like. But I think it's also important to recognise that these things are always evolving, and that there's not like this one static way of viewing.

Dr G 1:00:29
Yeah, and there's kind of like an impossibility embedded in that isn't there? It's like, I mean, I would love to know what it originally looked like, the chances of that ever. And

Dr Victoria Austen 1:00:41
then also, we limit ourselves by if we only focused on, but what did it Look like? I'm like, that's one part of investigating these monuments. But also, there are so many other questions that we can ask and, and interesting things we can kind of think about when it comes to monuments and memory and kind of what they mean. And, and yeah, I think just just focusing on like trying to reclaim some original purpose is, it's just kind of missing the point, I think of monuments and memorialization in general, because the whole point is that it's a continual process. So like, why would we want it to be exactly the same? Well,

Dr Rad 1:01:24
I think we can safely say that without modern technology, Augustus would not be averse to us making some improvements if it would make him even grander. So by all means, build it up, make it a frickin skyscraper.

Dr Victoria Austen 1:01:38
Yeah, it's interesting, we still we still kind of, even though it is rundown, and there's still a desire to reclaim it, even now that they've not given that no one's given up hope, like there have been these periods of decline. But it's like we should, we should do something with this, because it's kind of that implicit recognition that this is important, but we're not entirely sure why it's important, but we're gonna do something with it.

Dr G 1:02:06
And it has a substantial footprint in the spot where it is like, it's huge to try and walk around it, it takes a little while. And you're like trying to peek in through the gates being like, what's going on in there guys. Like it's a whole blocks worth in size.

Dr Victoria Austen 1:02:19
Yeah, the best view you can get it actually from inside the Ara Pacis is museum because you're a bit raised. And then, I mean, it's still blocked. Now it's blocked now because of all of like the scaffolding, but from the inside of the museum, you can at least kind of Look a bit over into what it is. But yeah, you're right. Like this is huge. It's not something you can never take it in in one go. Really, because this is like like the Colosseum, like you've got to like you're experiencing it from multiple angles and ways. And you can't just it's not a small thing that you can just stand there and Look at, like, you got to experience it in space. So

Dr Rad 1:02:57
well. And I think this also speaks to something about people. I mean, obviously, we've increasingly got digital areas and spaces for ourselves. But at the end of the day, much like we can't lose our connection with the actual natural world, we can't lose our connection with physical spaces, they still really matter to us. Because of the way that we're wired. We're not wired to exist only in a digital space. And so you've given me a lot of hope that I will be able to repurpose this as a space for people to come and ponder the greatness of people like Dr. G. Dr. Austen and also reflect on what a manipulative evil son of a bitch Augustus was.

Dr G 1:03:40
I knew it was coming and

Dr Rad 1:03:46
End episode. Exit stage left.

But it'd be Yeah, I mean, I think having a space to go and and yeah, and think about Augustus and all the things that he did. It's, it's good.

Dr Victoria Austen 1:04:05
I agree. One of these days, you know, the last conversation we had we manifested that we would meet in Rome, and Dr. Jean did meet in Rome. So now if we manifest that we'll be able to go in the mausoleum of Augustus. Maybe it will happen. Maybe this.

Dr G 1:04:22
Oh, yeah, we'll get Dr. Right over there. Yeah. surreptitiously record that conversation.

Dr Rad 1:04:28
Dr G and I are saving away for a partial historians expedition.

Dr Victoria Austen 1:04:34
So we will, we will hope that the mausoleum is part of that experience for you.

Dr Rad 1:04:40
Yeah, like I want to I want to Look at the remains of Augustus.

Dr Victoria Austen 1:04:44
Look him In the eye and tell him what you think.

Dr Rad 1:04:50
I see what you were doing. You didn't fool me.

Dr G 1:04:54
Goodness me. Well, on that note, thank you so much, Vicky for joining us and chatting all about the mausoleum, it has been fabulous to have you.

Dr Rad 1:05:09
Thank you for listening to this special episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy to Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to special episodes just like this. Today, we would like to say a special hello to Roman, Jesse and Dillon some of our recent Patreon members. Thank you very muchly for your support. However, if you just got mugged out in the dangerous streets of ancient Rome, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. That goes for our book as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Money, money, money! We’re in 406 BCE and although its well before ABBA's pop hit, let's this be a small hint of things to come. Rome finds itself in a bit of a tricky situation. Not only are they navigating the fallout of their conflict with the Volscians, but with the long running tensions with Veii seem to be coming to a head.

Episode 148 – It's All About the Money, Honey!

There’s a distinct lack of enthusiasm for more fighting from the people who would be levied. Things are not looking positive on the morale front! Combine that with some meddlesome tribunes of the plebs and the recipe is ripe for a changing time ahead.

What if we paid you?

The big topic that makes the 406 stand out is the assertion in some ancient sources that this year is the first time the Roman soldiers receive pay for their service. That’s right, Rome’s been trundling along for centuries without offering those who risk life and limb anything but the potential thrill of booty. But is this claim to be believed? We consider some of the challenges.

The Geography of Central Italy

Spoiler alert! Rome extends their sphere of influence further into Volscian territory in 406. Anxur is on the coast just to the east of Circeii. Map below for reference for just how afar afield Anxur is from Rome! Tune in for all the tactical details.

Map of Central Italy. Source Wikimedia Commons.

Things to Listen Out For

• Some tunic-ripping action!
• The introduction of Anxur
• Sound as a military tactic
• The power of ladders
• Grumpy tribunes

Our Players for 406 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular Power

• Publius Cornelius M. f. L. n. Rutilus Cossus (Pat)
• Gnaeus Cornelius P. f. A. n. Cossus (Pat)
• Numerius or Gnaeus Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat). NB Diodorus and the Fasti Capitolini have Numerius as the praenomen
• Lucius Valerius L. f. P. n. Potitus (Pat)

Legate

• Gaius Servilius Ahala (Pat)

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy 4.58-59
• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 14.12.1; Ennius’ Annales 4.162 V; Florus 1.6.8; Fasti Capitolini for 406 BCE
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Sound Credits

Our theme music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

The view of Anxur (known today as Terracina) from the sea. The cliff is VERY dramatic! At the top you can see the ruins of the Temple of Jupiter Anxur, which was built sometime in the mid-second to mid-first century BCE.
Photo by Gugli73 via Wikimedia Commons.

Automated Transcript

Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:30
And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 1:02
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians and I am one of your hosts, Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:11
And I am Dr. Rad relieved that you know who you are, Dr. G.

Dr G 1:16
This time, for once.

Dr Rad 1:18
Call back to an episode a couple of months ago?

Dr G 1:22
Yes, well, you know, I mean, the thing is, so we are tracing the history of Rome, from the founding of the city. And we are in what I think is going to be a very exciting year, because we're going to be talking about 406 BCE.

Dr Rad 1:43
We certainly are, but before we get into that, of course, Dr. G, I would like to recap where we were in 407 and I can do that pretty succinctly because not a huge amount happened.

Dr G 1:55
I was gonna say you really have to do the recap for 407 because I don't know anything.

Dr Rad 2:01
Well, we got the hint that something was happening with me it was very peaceful, very diplomatic. But they is once again being mentioned which okay, I mean, there's been some big conflicts with Veii and you know, issues with the Etruscans in the past, but it's been a little bit quieter for the last couple of decades. But they did appear on the horizon in our last episode, but nothing very exciting really happened. And then we of course had the slaughter at Verrugo, which I'm sure you remember because I know you hate that place name.

Dr G 2:35
I do. I mean, it just doesn't roll off the tongue nicely.

Dr Rad 2:41
Verrugo, Verrugo.

Dr G 2:41
Stop that, I'm shivering. Oh, okay. So Rome has this issue with Verrugo.

Dr Rad 2:50
It did.

Dr G 2:51
And that's that's kind of it.

Dr Rad 2:54
Yeah. Basically, they recently captured it. And they were feeling very smug. And then it got captured back by the Volscians, and the Aequians. And it wasn't a great Look, it wasn't a great Look, because they probably could have stopped that from happening if they'd been a little bit more on the ball.

Dr G 3:12
I was gonna say if they had sent a full military force.

Dr Rad 3:15
Yeah, well, I mean, they sent a military force, but they were just like, late. It was kind of the issue that they took their sweet time. And that poor little garrison out there. Killed.

Dr G 3:29
Well.

Dr Rad 3:29
All dead.

Dr G 3:31
Oh no, Dear Marcia, I write to you as I die on this battlefield.

Dr Rad 3:40
The blood is leaking from my veins, but my heart still pumps for you.

Dr G 3:50
The Romance.

Dr Rad 3:50
I know.

Dr G 3:52
All right. Well, I think that it is time then 406 BCE.

It's 406 BCE, and we have military tribunes with consular power. There are four of them, which is a pretty standard number at this point in time. We have Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus.

Dr Rad 4:46
I believe we know that name from recent years.

Dr G 4:50
Perhaps we do, perhaps we do certainly the Rutilii Cossi as a group as a sort of gens and then that particular family line well own at this point. And we also have Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus. So some more Cornelii in there. We also have a guy called Numerius or Gnaeus Fabius Ambustus.

Dr Rad 5:18
Ah haaa

Dr G 5:21
Numerius seems to be the more preferred of the praenomens here.

Dr Rad 5:25
Okay.

Dr G 5:27
Livy might disagree. We'll see.

Dr Rad 5:28
I'm not going to repeat my joke from last time.

Dr G 5:30
Booo! And Lucius Valerius Potitus.

Dr Rad 5:38
Another familiar name.

Dr G 5:39
Yes. Previously consular tribune in 414. And will also go on to hold that role in the future as well. Watch this space.

Dr Rad 5:49
Okay,

Dr G 5:49
So far what I can tell you so far is Potitus doesn't die.

Dr Rad 5:55
Spoliers! Yeah.

Dr G 5:57
And we also have a legate who has survived. So a military legate, we don't really know what they do right now. They're in charge of troops.

Dr Rad 6:05
We don't know what military tribunes do right now!

Dr G 6:07
We don't really know a lot. All right. But here we are. And we have Gaius Servilius Ahala Ahala Ahala. And you will definitely recognize this name because he was a military tribute in regards to the power in 408 and 407. So as early as last year, he was hanging around.

Dr Rad 6:36
So the Ahala definitely making a comeback through this particular man.

Dr G 6:40
They are they definitely are. So that's all the names that I've got. And I do have some details about this year. But I feel like Livy probably has a narrative to hook some of those details into so I'm keen to see what he's got.

Dr Rad 6:57
Okay, well, Dr. G, get ready to strap yourself in for what is going to be an epic year. So epic. I may need two episodes to tell you about it. And it's been a while it's been a while since we've had a year I think quite this epic. I mean, 409 saw some big developments. But this is action packed.

Dr G 7:19
Stuff happens

Dr Rad 7:20
Stuff does, stuff does happen. It does, indeed. Now, a lot of the stuff that happens is connected with Veii. So last episode, we talked about the fact that allegedly, the truce between Veii and Rome that had been established in their previous conflict was running out. And so everyone was like, We got to renew it. Gotta get that least happening again.

Dr G 7:45
Hurry hurry!

Dr Rad 7:46
Yeah. But 406 is generally given in our ancient sources as the year in which war with Veii began again.

Dr G 7:59
Now, okay, that sounds momentous.

Dr Rad 8:02
Yes. Now, it's not necessarily obviously all going to be the action of that war in this year, because this is going to be a 10 year conflict or so we are led to believe.

Dr G 8:14
Oh goodness, all right. Strap myself in indeed.

Dr Rad 8:17
Yeah. Now look, obviously, as I highlighted last time, dates, the amount of time that the Romans are going to go to war. It's a little bit, it's a little bit questionable at this point in time. Do they want it to go for 10 years because the Trojan War allegedly lasted for 10 years? Maybe? Who am I to say? Who am I?

Dr G 8:38
You telling me Rome views its conflict with Veii in-? Like in Trojan War terms? It's Homeric in its scope. Wow. All right. Okay.

Dr Rad 8:38
Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of that. So I'm just I'm just highlighting that now. Just to begin, what will be a constant warning, every episode I'm going to have to say this or now on that. Maybe the dates are off. Maybe it didn't last as long maybe it lasted longer really held this? Certainly not us, and certainly not Livy. Yeah. Anyway. So there are many ways we're starting in 406, a conflict that apparently is going to go all the way down to 396.

Dr G 9:17
Okay, okay.

Dr Rad 9:19
So, because this is a big deal, I thought maybe we should do a little bit of a recap about Veii. Okay. So geographically, I know you're very well acquainted with where Veii is now because it is super close to Rome.

Dr G 9:35
It is. So realistically we're talking it's about it's less than, like 20 kilometers away from Rome, centre proper

Dr Rad 9:43
Which in Australian terms is basically next door.

Dr G 9:47
Well, and even in Italy, it's basically like, let's not kid ourselves. You could walk there on a good day, and be like, Oh, hey, guys, it's the Etruscans a completely different people.

Dr Rad 9:57
Yeah, So because they're so close, it makes sense that they are constantly fighting these people, because the Romans are constantly fighting all of their neighbors. But they, I suppose having those a trust and connections, I guess that makes them perhaps more ripe for conflict in some ways, because you know, the Etruscans are a major power, they're a major player, you know, there's glory to be won here, Dr. G.

Dr G 9:59
Yeah, and faith does have the capacity to leverage much more support than the neighbors in the other directions surrounding Rome at this point. So Rome has got this thing going on with the Volscii and the Aequii who are kind of to the south east-ish. And those people don't seem to be interconnected into a broader empire of sorts, or a broader conglomerate. There's kind of like, Latin peoples, and they're all kind of milling around in the same sort of area as Rome. But they're not necessarily power blocks, whereas Veii represents the most southern tip of Etrurian power. And the Etruscans are known for having quite a reach up through central into northern Italy.

Dr Rad 11:14
Yes, exactly. And on a more local level, they being so close, they probably have control of some territory, that'd be really handy for the Romans to have, not just so they can say, mine is bigger, but so they have control of, you know, like trade routes, you know, more access to resources that are pretty damn close by.

Dr G 11:36
Yes, it would be nice to knock Veii off its pedestal, wouldn't it?

Dr Rad 11:44
Yes, it would. Just to do a bit of a recap of where we've been with a because Okay, I'm sorry, I have to do a bit of spoilers. This is going to be the last of the big conflicts with Veii –

Dr G 11:56
Oh, no! Close your ears listeners!

Dr Rad 11:57
Well, I didn't say who was gonna win. But I mean, you know, put two and two. So this is going to be the last. So the first really big conflict with a and I mean, obviously, there's been issues with the Etruscans. We believe the sources which we we tend to because there's nothing else to do. There's obviously been some Etruscan questions in the regal period, notably, thanks to Tarquinius, Priscus, etc. But in terms of the Republic, there was a war with a that lasted from 43 to 474. And they definitely was pretty hot in that conflict did pretty well for themselves. And this is the time period in which we have that very famous moment of the fabulous Fabian strategy.

Dr G 12:50
Yes, they were fabulous. right up into the point where they all died. Yes.

Dr Rad 12:54
All, apart from one that would carry the name. Down through the centuries.

Dr G 13:01
But you were the chosen one!

Dr Rad 13:03
Yes, yes. So that didn't end well. For the Romans. The people have they got to keep Fidenae which they are, which always has its greedy little eyes on and that sort of thing. They'd been embarrassed even though obviously, the Fabians seem to have just like gone out on their own bat and be like, yeah, if we just take our clients and our family and sort this out? Sick, bro. Yeah. Yeah, in spite of that, still embarrassing, because they still obviously come from Rome represent the room and interests, and that sort of thing. So that wasn't great. Then more recently, and our listeners might remember this, we of course, had the conflict over Fidenae, which flared up again in the 430s. And the for 20 years, although the dates of course, were super confusing.

Dr G 13:53
Ah, yes. This is one of those instances where all of the events around Fidenae seem to either happen at one time, or they happened a completely different decades. Nobody's really quite sure really, but it happened. This is where Lars Tolumnius comes into play.

Dr Rad 14:09
It is, it is, yes, the Etruscan King.

Dr G 14:12
I knew I remembered something about history,

Dr Rad 14:14
Indeed, slain on the battlefield. It's very sad. So that obviously was a pretty big thing, because with the source material being so confusing, it seemed like that conflict was going on for like a good decade. And maybe it was maybe it was, but certainly there was a lot of changing of allegiances with Fidenae being like, you know, well Fidenae was the hot potato. They were throwing backwards and forwards and was also trying to pick what was best for itself, which was very difficult with Roman and Veii being like you should be with me.

Dr G 14:46
I think they chose Veii and that made Rome mad.

Dr Rad 14:48
It did, it certainly did. It certainly did. So we've had that. But it's been fairly quiet, obviously, because of the way things ended. You know, there was a truce to know. However, hostility is about to recommence, Dr. G, and it really all begins because the Senate in they are just so rude.

Dr G 15:07
Really? Rude about what? They don't want the new treaty they don't want to renewal?

Dr Rad 15:15
So as we know, treaties running out Romans are dealing with this people may seem too interested in this too. But they had asked the Romans for a little bit of you know, timeout because they were dealing with some internal problems. When the Romans approached them in this year, allegedly, the Senate as they tells the Romans to get the hell out if they don't want a taste of what Lars Tolumnius had dished out to the Romans before. In other words, death.

Dr G 15:41
Interesting. I wonder what provoked that?

Dr Rad 15:44
I know. I know. So.

Dr G 15:47
It seems to have come out of nowhere, really

Dr Rad 15:48
I know – they were so nice to each other last year, and yet here we are. Maybe they are, maybe they are being strategic. Maybe they just wanted a little bit more time to prepare lower them in exactly false pretenses. Anyway, needless to say, wherever this hostility came from, the Romans are living so insulted so they say to the military tribunes, could you please just go to the people and ask them to declare war against pay for I will not stand for such an insult.

Dr G 16:23
Fair enough. Yeah. I wouldn't either.

Dr Rad 16:25
No. So the military tribunes do this, of course, but they meet with a less than enthusiastic reception. And this is an interesting episode, I think. Apparently, the young men are kind of like, ‘Oh, my God, seriously, like another war? Like, do you not realize that we're still like fighting with the Volscians? I mean, every year were still fighting and it's just so much war and you want to do it on like, multiple directions. I can't even.'

Dr G 16:58
‘Guys, I'm still in therapy after Verrugo,'

Dr Rad 17:01
‘My trauma, my trauma.'

Dr G 17:05
Fair enough. I would be like that, too. I'd be like, it's too soon. Guys, I've already seen blood.

Dr Rad 17:10
Yeah. Well, I mean, that is fair, because they are still engaged with ongoing tiffs with the Volscians every other year.

Dr G 17:17
Hmm. I was gonna say it's not like things have settled down to the southeast.

Dr Rad 17:21
No, Verrugo just happened, you know, they remember that, you know, and so they really don't want to go to war. And they particularly don't want to go to war with Veii because they know from experience, that they're tough. They're really close. And because there is obviously an Etruscan power. There's always the potential that they're gonna call it all their buddies, all the other Etruscan cities and kingdoms, and it's just gonna get out of hand.

Dr G 17:50
Yeah, okay. Yeah. I don't want to do that either. I mean, there's got to be a way.

Dr Rad 17:54
Yeah. Yeah. So this is interesting. You know, as of time of recording, we just recently spoke to a magnificent guest, Bret Devereaux. He reminded us how little we actually know about military operations at this point in time. But I do think it's interesting that there is the story of like, you know, the lack of interest, you know, people not wanting to sign up. Yeah, it does highlight, obviously, the volunteer, somewhat ad hoc nature of Roman military at this time.

Dr G 18:25
Yes, this idea that we've got a sort of a citizen militia that's kind of can can be called upon, but also gets to express its viewpoint about what's happening.

Dr Rad 18:35
Yeah.

Dr G 18:36
So they're not just, it's not just a state military apparatus.

Dr Rad 18:41
Certainly not yet.

Dr G 18:42
No, it is kind of like a group of people getting together being like, ‘Well, we really should poke sticks in those people over there?' And, and people in the group being like, ‘I'm not sure I want to do that right now.'

Dr Rad 18:53
Yeah, exactly. Like, I can't.

Dr G 18:57
I'm really busy.

Dr Rad 19:00
Really need to get some farming done, guys.

Dr G 19:02
Do you want to eat grain? I want to eat grain.

Dr Rad 19:04
I would love to have some bread. Yeah. So this unhappiness is made a lot worse by our old friends the tribunes of the plebs.

Dr G 19:13
Oh, no. Do we even know the names of any of those guys right now?

Dr Rad 19:16
That'd be silly.

Dr G 19:20
I was like, I don't have any of the plebs in my list, but maybe you do know.

Dr Rad 19:24
Yeah, just generically troublesome in my account.

Dr G 19:27
Okay. Yeah. nameless, troublesome figures. I like it.

Dr Rad 19:31
Yeah. Well, which works kind of either way, I think for a little while. But anyway, so they of course latch on to this. They're like, excellent. We'll use this and they start making a lot of public declarations saying things like, the Senate don't really want to wage war and the Volscians are they they're really waging war on the plebs.

Dr G 19:51
Oh, this is actually a new line for them. I think I like it. Yeah. It's a war on the people. That's what it is and I won't have it.

Dr Rad 19:57
Yeah. And then like, don't you see, can't you see the pattern, the way that they're going about it is that they constantly keep running in a state of war, which means that the beings are constantly having to fight, which means that they get injured or die, or at the very least, it's keeping them out of the city, often far away from the city. Whereas if they were allowed to just kick back, sit on the couch, once in a while, stay at home, not be distracted by the constant threat of death and battle, then they might have had the time to think about, you know, freedom, how they want it, how to get it, setting up colonies, where they can have land and that sort of thing. After all, let's not forget that they are apparently the people who are winning these public lands, and they should be able to vote wherever they want, whenever they want, do whatever they want. They do everything!

Dr G 19:59
All right. Okay, I appreciate this argument. I really do. But I can also see how this is not going to fly with the elite in charge around here, who are looking at the horizon, seeing Veii beating some sticks together and being like, ‘Look, if we don't do something, they're going to take this place and then we'll have nowhere to live. Guys, guys!'

Dr Rad 21:23
For sure. I can totally see that too. And when we're there in Rome, I mean, the ancient city a very is now within the modern city of Rome. That's how close these places are. And therefore, it is probably a bit of a, ‘Look one has to go eventually.'

Dr G 21:41
Yeah. There ain't enough room in this town for the two of us

Dr Rad 21:47
There ain't enough room in this top or valley for the both of us. But anyway, Look obviously into I agree with you, I get where they're coming from I do I get whether the patricians are coming from I also get that this is horribly anachronistic.

Dr G 22:05
The best we can say

Dr Rad 22:06
Exactly. Probably didn't actually happen. But anyway, let's continue on because it's a great story. We're about to get to my favorite part. So they then start speaking to the old veterans in the group, get them to talk about their campaigns, what they sacrificed over the years. And of course, Dr. G. It's time for a plebeian to get his shirt off.

Dr G 22:27
Whoohoo

Dr Rad 22:27
Oh, yeah. It's be way too long since somebody ripped off their tunic and showed their battle scars.

Dr G 22:34
I haven't seen anybody's wounds on the front for ages.

Dr Rad 22:36
I know. I know. I was very excited. A little too excited. But anyway, so hey, rip off their tunics. They show their battle scars.

Dr G 22:46
I was in Fidenae. I saw it all.

Dr Rad 22:50
I remember when Lars Tolumnius was thrown from his horse by Cossus into the ground and a place where the sun don't shine, if you know what I mean. Now the tribune is pointed out that there's barely any space left on their bodies for new scars.

Dr G 23:11
We can't send these guys they're not gonna get through

Dr Rad 23:13
Which is a grizzly image. If you think about it. I mean, I think about people that are addicted to tattoos and get tattoos all over their bodies, but scarring is like a different issue. That's, that's a lot.

Dr G 23:26
It is. It is a lot. The tunic was taken off and everybody was like, please put that back on.

Dr Rad 23:31
Oh, my god,

Dr G 23:34
Stop.

Dr Rad 23:36
Does your skin stretch at all?

Dr G 23:39
Alright, we weren't send you It's fine. It's fine. We'll send somebody else.

Dr Rad 23:42
Given ancient medicine, you're a frickin miracle. Anyway, they're like, What blood could they possibly now shed for Rome? They've already given so much. There's barely any left in that body. They basically blew and not in a good way. So the sorts of speeches and demonstrations naturally make the plebeians even more anti war than they were before.

Dr G 24:11
Fair enough. Yeah. Sounds about right.

Dr Rad 24:14
So our magistrates, therefore decide that you know what, why don't we just wait before we vote on this issue? And a feeling that it might not go our way if we vote immediately.

Dr G 24:26
There are some clever ones in there. All right.

Dr Rad 24:28
Yeah. So feel like insult must be advantage but pick your battles. You know, pick your moments. It was decided, therefore, that the military tribunes should move into Volscian territory with an army.

Dr G 24:43
Hmm,

Dr Rad 24:44
yes. And then we're going to leave Gnaeus Cornelius behind in Rome, you know, just to keep an eye on things.

Dr G 24:50
Okay,

Dr Rad 24:51
Yup. The Volscians: Not in the mood for battle today. No, thank you. They didn't even have a camp. They were caught without their makeup on, without their clothes ready, without their hair done.

Dr G 25:04
Oh, no. Yeah. They were like, ‘Word has it that the Romans are gonna be moving north this year. So I'm just gonna sleep in.'

Dr Rad 25:13
Exactly. Yeah, I can take take a beat. Take the year off. Yeah, no, you can't. Now. So we got one military tribune in in Rome means we got the other three add on campaign and the strategy that they use is that they divide the army up into three sections. And each military tribune therefore gets to plunder and destroy a different part of Volscian country.

Dr G 25:36
Oh, I have a few details about this. But I am willing to hear where how Livy's structures the narrative.

Dr Rad 25:45
Okay,

Dr G 25:45
And then and then I'll jump in with what may be some irrelevant extra detail.

Dr Rad 25:50
Let's go with it. Alright, so I feel a bit like I'm telling the story, the three little pigs: Valerius went to Antium. Cornelius went to Ecetra, Ecetrae, et cetera, et cetera.

Ah et chetera

Et chetray

Dr G 26:08
I don't know.

Dr Rad 26:08
Yeah. Something.

Dr G 26:11
It starts with ‘e' guys.

Dr Rad 26:13
Etc Et ketray. It probably is Et cet-tray.

Dr G 26:15
Et cet-tray

Dr Rad 26:16
Yeah,

Dr G 26:16
Let's say Ecetra.

Dr Rad 26:17
I like calling it et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, by of course, they do the usual you know, like attacking buildings attacking farms, whenever they find them causing chaos. What a merry lark. And our final tribute, he went to Anxur, and this is of course that fabulous Fabian tribune. Now Anxur was the major target for this particular campaign. Now, I think the reason for that, Dr. G, is I don't actually know that we've even mentioned this place before. And it's further-

I don't think we have, no.

Yeah, it's further south, I think then they've generally gone like, as far as I can tell, this is even beyond Antium. Still

Dr G 26:59
Oh, yeah, I can tell you all about where it's located.

Dr Rad 27:02
Thank you. I believe that it's currently, if you were to go and want to see this site now, it'd be known as Terracina.

Dr G 27:10
Hmmm, yes, it is. So this is a place that is about 56 kilometers, or 35 miles southeast of Rome,

Dr Rad 27:23
My, you are prepared.

Dr G 27:25
I am prepared. If I know anything, I'm looking at places where I haven't heard of them before. So it becomes the place where the Via Appia extends all the way down to it not in this time period. But in about another 100 years time, the Via Appia will head all the way straight into like a deadline for Rome down to this spot, right. And it's on a really strategic location. So Italy has all of these sort of like mountain ranges that are formed through the volcanic activity in the the tectonic plates and stuff that sort of go down the middle of it. And this is a spot where a set of hills becomes the cliffs that fall into the sea.

Dr Rad 28:11
Okay.

Dr G 28:12
So when you're in Anxur, you're on the top of a hill. And you can see in every direction, basically. So pretty exciting stuff, because it's in what is known as the Volscian hills. And you can see over what is known as the Pontine Marshes. Now this is the really super flat area that sits in between these hills and Rome itself. And when you're like driving around in Italy today, I recommend you do it. All the roads there are really straight, because it's just flat land. But you've got these amazing hills on one side, and then you've got the marshes and it's just flat. You're like, Okay, so you've got like a really clear view for a whole bunch of things. And we think historically, way back even pre Rome, wait for it that this was an Etruscan area.

Dr Rad 29:07
Oh, okay.

Dr G 29:08
Yeah, back in the seventh century BCE, right. And that it sort of splits away and the Volscians come in and it becomes their kind of thing. And, and they've been hanging out there. But Carthage also has a history with this spot as well.

Dr Rad 29:26
They do. It's coastal.

Dr G 29:27
Yeah. Yeah, anything on the coast. Carthage is interested. The Punic peoples, they are a seafaring peoples. So they've had a treaty setup there since about the early republic. So this whole situation is really interesting because it is you're right, it is much further south than Rome has gone before with a military enterprise. And they're now taking what is a highly strategic Volscian location.

Dr Rad 29:59
Venturing where no Roman than has dared to go before.

Dr G 30:04
A small step for man, a giant step for a Roman military tribune with consular power.

Dr Rad 30:10
That's right. All right. So, as you've highlighted because of the way it's positioned, this is not a place that the Romans are just gonna be able to waltz in and plunder. This is a siege we're facing, people. Now, as you said, there are marshes nearby, like the city apparently kind of slipped in the direction of the marshes. So that is where Fabius is kind of positioned. He has no other choice.

Dr G 30:39
I was gonna say that is not the strategic location to start your siege, but okay, Mr. Mr. Fabius.

Dr Rad 30:45
Yeah, well, that's where he's going to, that's where he's gonna position himself and he's, he's getting a little punchy, you know, he's got a little keen taste, taste for battle. However, this is where our legate comes in. So Gaius Servilius Ahala, takes four cohorts. And he starts to move around the hill, which overlooks Anxur, and he starts attacking the hills from that position, which apparently is a very good position to do this from because there are no real troops there to fight back. Maybe they thought that no one would take that line of attack. I don't know.

Dr G 31:22
They're like, ‘these hills are hard to climb. Nobody's gonna come that way.'

Dr Rad 31:25
Definitely. No one's gonna do that. They're also making a huge amount of noise whilst they're doing this. Okay, so a huge racket to the point where the people who are inside the city are like, Oh, my God, could you just keep it down with trying to wage a war state or rock concert? Jeez.

Dr G 31:44
I'm trying to think about what the purpose of the noise would be, and maybe to scare the people into thinking that there's a bigger army and

Dr Rad 31:49
It's a tactic. It's a technique. So obviously, the people who are focusing on Fabius, who's doing his little like, jab, jab, punch from down in the marshes.

Dr G 32:03
Come down here and say that, I'll take you down.

Dr Rad 32:06
They're confused by the noise. It's very distracting. And because they are distracted by the noise that's being caused by Ahala. It allows Fabius apparently to sneak in some scaling ladders.

Dr G 32:23
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Dr Rad 32:25
Exactly. And Anxur is soon swarming with Romans. And this is a pretty brutal conquest, Dr. G., they are slaughtering everyone and anyone citizen soldier, armed, unarmed, who cares. You're on the end of my sword.

Dr G 32:45
Huh? Okay, so this issue, this moment in time between Rome, the Volscians and Anxur, yes, this is one of those rare moments where we have a fragment from Ennius.

Dr Rad 32:59
Oh, okay. Tell me more about this early, early source.

Dr G 33:04
Our, early early source. So Ennius is most famous for writing a poem called the Annales and he was born in 239 BCE, we think so he's third century. So this puts him much earlier than Livy, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, any of the sources that we're reading really? Yeah. And so this becomes one of these moments that we're able to locate, because we've got a much earliest written source, okay. So, Ennius is somebody who is not Roman, he is somebody who comes to Rome later in life. And he speaks a number of different languages. So he is from what is ancient Calabria, which is part of broader Magna Grecia. Right? So he speaks Greek. He also speaks Oscan. And he also speaks Latin, handy. And this seems to be like pretty typical for what is going on in Italy during this way.

Dr Rad 34:11
Yeah, you've got the Greeks in the south, you've got the Oscans on the – wait – you've got the Oscans to the east…

Dr G 34:18
The Oscans are kind of to the east a little bit, but they kind of spread like a little band that separates the Greeks and the Latin speakers if you like so he's kind of got like this sweep of things from sort of south to center in terms of his languages. This means that he's got not just a sort of an interest in Roman things. He's got an interest in the broader region as well. And he mentioned this as he mentioned the Roman ladders in Anxur and he also mentions the way that the Volscians lose. So these are the two details that that we get from a different source for this.

Dr Rad 34:54
Okay. Well, okay. Let us corroborate: ladders – tick.So obviously with Romans all about their city, too dangerous etc, as they tend to be, the people who live there, they've got nothing to gain at this point by surrounding because the Romans are just too indiscriminate in their violence. And so it looks like they just gonna have to power on regardless which, again, it's not going to end well for them that I guess at least I took a few Romans with them, right. But suddenly, the Romans are receiving instruction that they're not to harm anyone, unless they're holding a weapon. And so the people of Anxur are very quick to drop it like it's hot.

Dr G 35:37
‘What are you talking about? Mah? That touched me, I didn't pick it up.'

Dr Rad 35:43
‘That's not mine. I mean sure it's got my name inscribed on it, but whatever.' So this is how this is how it ends? It means that the Romans are able to capture approximately 2,500 people.

Dr G 35:59
Okay, that's a lot.

Dr Rad 36:00
Yeah. And I mean, considering that we haven't really talked much about, you know, prisoners of war of late. But it wasn't that long ago that they also captured, you know, a few 1,000. And so yeah, all of a sudden, we can see that, with the Romans being a bit more aggressive. Being a bit more expansionist in the region. We're starting to see prisoners being taken again, allegedly, the numbers are very round. That's all I'm gonna say.

Dr G 36:27
You telling me somebody's not keeping a proper count. Goodness me.

Dr Rad 36:32
Anyway. So Fabius now comes in, and he tells his man, ‘Look, you need to leave the booty here until the other military tribunes arrive on the scene.' Okay, after all, you know, this is this is a joint effort we're talking about here. And also, you know, Ahala, he also was key, they managed to do the ladder thing, because they were just so damn noisy. So once all of the three military tribunes and Ahala represent as well sort of all converged on Anxur, the three armies and all get to lay waste to the town together, because the family that raids together stays together. And Anxur is a real win, not just strategically, although that is obviously a big thing. That's the main reason why they want it. But it's also a very rich place at this point in time, they've been doing pretty well for themselves. So, you know, it's it's a good time had by the Romans, it's a good day.

Dr G 37:35
It does seem like they've gone in the very opposite direction, and quite far in the opposite direction though, from Veii.

Dr Rad 37:43
Yes, yes. Well, I think you'll see why in a second here. So because all the soldiers were able to come together, and raid this very rich city, and they've had their success. This starts to make the plebeians think, maybe the patricians aren't so bad. After all, there's no better way to say that you're sorry, then with goods stolen from the enemy?

Dr G 38:09
Oh, that's true. I'm feeling buffed up by all of this booty.

Dr Rad 38:13
Yeah, and again, if we if we unpack this a little bit with what we know about the Roman army, or rather, what we don't know, at this point in time, because it is made up with people who are volunteers, as far as we can tell, and they are people who obviously, therefore, you know, they go to work, and they need to, but otherwise they're living their lives, and that sort of thing. Being able to raid like this makes sense. This is probably what warfare at this point in time is really about. It's not huge state run armies. You don't probably have magistrates, who get to say, who gets to keep what and who gets what, all the time, you know, it would have to be that these guys are, they're not getting paid. So them being able to take stuff when they win a battle. That's their pet. That's what they get for doing this for risking their lives and for leaving their families and their farms.

Dr G 39:12
Yeah. And this sort of going out as far as Rome has, at this point, taking this place that they've never taken before. This would be a real, I don't want to say cash injection, but it's kind of what I mean is like there's like a wealth accruing there from taking somewhere new and different.

Dr Rad 39:30
Absolutely. Yeah. Now, this is where we get a very big decision being made, Dr. G. And nobody had even asked for it, which we know as women. That's what matters the most right that you didn't actually have to ask. So the Senate makes this big decision that they're going to start paying soldiers.

Dr G 39:55
What?

Dr Rad 39:56
Yeah, yeah,

Dr G 39:57
No.

Dr Rad 39:58
Yeah. So the state-slash-public treasury and now going to pay the man who are fighting for them, which is described by Livy as the most seasonable boon, which has ever been bestowed on them by the chiefs of state.

Dr G 40:14
Okay, now, I'm not sure, first, that I believe that this is going to be the start of sustained payment.

Dr Rad 40:21
I don't think it is either. No, I don't think so.

Dr G 40:25
The only other source that I have for this year is Florus.

Dr Rad 40:28
Mmm Okay?

Dr G 40:30
And Florus, he talks about this 10 year siege of Veii, the foreshadowing thing. And he talks about how this is the first time that a Roman army has to spend the winter in campaign. So all of a sudden, they're out in the cold. So rather than usually the idea of the Roman campaigning season, as far as we theoretically understand that we have no idea how it's actually working at this point in time. But the idea is that in spring, you get together, you do the levee, and then you go out, and summertime is battle time.

Dr Rad 41:09
Yeah.

Dr G 41:10
And when things start to cool down again, in autumn, you definitely want to bring everybody home. Things don't happen in winter time, everybody's busy trying to stay warm, to stay out on campaign through the winter, is a whole extra sort of layer of challenge. You would need different equipment, better equipment, perhaps more weatherproof equipment. But if you're going to do a siege properly, and it's going to keep being a siege for as long as it needs to be a siege, you kind of have to stay in the field. And this is the moment that Florus suggest that because winter service was required of the soldiers. And this is in relation to Veii so we might be getting ahead of ourselves here. They get compensated with a special payment.

Dr Rad 41:59
Yeah, so I think you I think you hit the nail on the head, you have jumped ahead a little bit in my narrative. But yes, you are right, it does seem to be tied very much with Veii with the fact that there seems to be a much more sustained campaign. Is it 10 years? Who knows. But it definitely does seem to be more sustained than what the Romans have recently been doing, which is basically, you know, running across borders. And running back again. And certainly, so we can believe that there is some sort of payment in terms of it being like cash, like we would think of it like cha ching coin.

Dr G 42:35
Yeah. You rock up and the coin store is like and that's your check. Cash it wisely.

Dr Rad 42:41
Yeah, it seems unlikely that that's what's happening at this point in time. The Romans don't have coinage in this moment, it's more, it's more likely that they're getting paid in a sense of they're getting certain goods and food would be the most likely source of payment, I would imagine.

Dr G 42:59
Yeah. And we sort of get that sense that prior to this, the informal way of compensating people is through the booty system. So the idea that you go out, you do the reading, you grab the other people's stuff. And that's how you compensate people because then people either use that stuff, or maybe they trade that stuff.

Dr Rad 43:17
Yeah. And as was very usefully highlighted by Bret Devereaux. I'm going to keep mentioning him because it's just a very military episode. As he mentioned, when you have an army like this, the people that who are going out and fighting even though the whole accounts been very much swept up in this conflict of the oddest narrative, which we keep going on and on about, it probably isn't the super, super poor people that are going out and fighting at this moment in time. It's probably still people that are, you know, relatively well off. So they've been able to do this kind of warfare up until this point, but being away on campaign for a long time. Well, that is different. And also if you want more manpower, then you have to make it possible for the poorer people to serve.

Dr G 44:09
Yeah, there needs to be a way to make sure that it's possible for them to take the time.

Dr Rad 44:14
Yeah. And for the state not to suffer you know, you do still need people to stay at home and farm. Yeah, anyway, so as you highlighted, this pay probably is linked to the future campaign per se, but there hasn't been mentioned yet, Dr. G. But just giving it to people they just didn't dancing it okay and are so excited. This is like Christmas.

Dr G 44:43
Oh Livy, this narrative is wild.

Dr Rad 44:46
So crowds start to gather together in the Curia. And this is okay, apparently, it would be amazing. Of course,

Dr G 44:53
In a nice public building if they've got one.

Dr Rad 44:55
Yeah, exactly. Men are shaking the hands of senators as they come out of this historic meeting. They're saying to them, ‘You know what? We've had to call you, the fathers. But now you really deserve it.'

Dr G 45:12
Daddy,

Dr Rad 45:14
Oh my god you are my real dad.

Dr G 45:17
I feel like I'd be a real son now.

Dr Rad 45:20
It's just like all these years. It's kind of felt like you didn't really care but you did. And you are my father. You are the patres. You are the patres.

Dr G 45:36
Wow, the emotion. They're running high.

Dr Rad 45:39
Yeah, exactly. Everyone's saying, ‘You know what, now no one would mind serving in the army. Blood shmud, death schmeth, who cares? I mean, Rome, as a state is just so insanely generous, that it's just a pleasure and an honour to serve.'

Dr G 46:00
Guys, you've made it easy for me to say yes. Now you really have.

Dr Rad 46:02
Yeah, they really extra tickled, like the joy is really, you know, just gone. Right up there. Because not only were they not losing money anymore, when they went out of fight potentially, obviously, depends if you get booty and that sort of thing. But it's really the fact that the Senate did this without being asked. They hadn't even been pushing for this. It's a spontaneous gift. It's like when your partner takes the rubbish out without having to be asked, you know, when they put their plate in the dishwasher without having to be asked or they tidy their room without having to be asked.

Dr G 46:39
Well, I don't know what's going on in your house, but it sounds very exciting.

Dr Rad 46:44
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now, the tribunes of the plebs, of course, are not pleased. They're the only party poopers in this situation.

Dr G 46:54
I wonder why? They've been undercut, haven't they?

Dr Rad 46:57
Exactly. Whose scars are going to show now? They felt like the plebeians were deluded. They're like, ‘Guys, this is not going to benefit you quite this much like take it down a notch. It's just one of those things that the Senate do, where I assure it looks good on paper, or whatever it is we're using right now to record things. But it's not going to play out that well in real life, or telling you this, this isn't how the Senate is work. This isn't how patricians work.'

Dr G 47:27
Yeah, ‘you need to be more suspicious, guys. A little bit more skepticism could go a long way right now.'

Dr Rad 47:32
Well, they do make a very good point, Dr. G. And it's what a question that we still asked to this day, which is, where's the money coming from? Follow the many people! Who's going to be paying for this?

Dr G 47:46
I mean, if it's bags of grain if they're being paid in food, that food has been produced by the very people who it's been given to.

Dr Rad 47:54
How dare you interrupt my delightfully anachronistic account of Livy? Where we are apparently talking about money?

Dr G 48:02
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Dr Rad 48:04
He basically says, ‘Look, it's gonna be the people that are funding this. The senators? Oh, sure. They're so generous when it comes to making payments with other people's money.'

Dr G 48:15
Exactly.

Dr Rad 48:17
Which, okay, let's just take a break. Even if we're not talking about actual money, it might be other people's goods or grain that we're talking about here. So I take your point. Yeah.

Dr G 48:31
Either way, I don't think it's coming out of the pockets of the rich.

Dr Rad 48:35
That's the point. That's the point even if whatever we're talking about whether we're talking about grain, whether we are in fact talking about some sort of valuable metal, whatever it is, we're talking about, and I'm putting my money on the grain. It's not going to be coming from they're not privately funding this. The tribunes of the plebs also point out. What about the people who had already served? Right okay to be happy that people are now getting paid. There's no back pay system. Come on. No, no, don't like it's going to be coming out of their pockets, but they didn't get paid. That's a bit of a you know, a bit of a nice to the heart right there.

Dr G 49:15
That's a recipe for discontent.

Dr Rad 49:16
That is it is yeah. Now some of the plebeians are like okay, good points, fair points. I hear what you're saying. and I are going to wind back my enthusiasm just a tad.

Dr G 49:32
Daddy, thank you. I'll write you a card.

Dr Rad 49:36
The tribunes don't come out and say – sorry, the tribunes of the plebs – I always have to qualify that because there's so many tribunes at the moment. They say we will make sure that anyone who refuses to pay any sort of tax for soldier pay, we will protect you. We will look out for you because this is not a good system. This is not fair. This is not what should be happening.

Dr G 49:58
Interesting.

Dr Rad 49:59
I know So even though the senators are being very clever here, because as you highlighted, they're totally thinking about very when they're introducing this. They've been very clever not let on that. That's what it's about. The tribunes are also being very clever, and foreseeing that there's a problem with this in that, where's it all going to come from? However, the senators are determined to this is going to go through. So determined that they do put in some of their own money, and I'm using my flesh rabbits there, because once again, what money? There is no coinage. And Livy apparently says that the way that they pay is they bring in unclaimed bronze in wagons to the Treasury. Now, I did actually talk about this in another episode thinking I had already mentioned this. But this is where we have to be like, really? Is that what they did? I'm not sure like maybe, I don't know, but it does seem-

Dr G 51:02
Where did they find this? This bronze?

Dr Rad 51:05
It just doesn't seem like the way that Rome is operating right now.

Dr G 51:11
Okay, yeah. Look, I, I don't have a perspective one way or the other or that I but I think I have questions.

Dr Rad 51:18
At least Livy knows that it should be uncoined bronze. But anyway, but they make sure that people see them doing it. That's the whole point. Yeah, so like, oh, this wagon so heavy, my animals was straining to bring it in to the Treasury. However, wil I carry so much uncoined bronze?

Dr G 51:42
The blanket that's covering it slips off and like, ‘oh, goodness, is that what's in there?'

Dr Rad 51:46
Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't want anyone to know, this is meant to be anonymous. I wanted to hide my name. Anyway, so with the senators bringing in some of their own cash for lack of a better term – goods. They also want their clients I think to start bringing in contributions.

Dr G 52:10
All right, yeah. They have to raise funds somehow now. If you're gonna pay people, you need to pay them with something. Yes, regardless of what that something is.

Dr Rad 52:19
Yeah. And it seems that they might be recruiting some of the wealthier plebeians to do this. Which is really interesting, because we've always talked about the nuance of the supposed Conflict of the Orders. So it is interesting to once again highlight that it's not as clear cut as patricians versus plebeians. It's probably wealthy people versus other people, much like every other society. Anyway, the crowd start to see a course that people are bringing in their own money, and that these people were being praised by the patricians for doing that. People of military age, who always are going to be the ones on the front lines, and who are going to be obviously benefiting from this. They're like, wow, this is amazing.

Dr G 53:06
Sign me up, I'll go anywhere, I'll do anything.

Dr Rad 53:10
They're doing their duty by making these contributions and allowing for this payment system to be possible. So this starts to turn them against the tribunes of the plebs here, and everyone starts competing with each other to make their own donations. Now, when I say everyone, I'm presuming again. Everyone wealthy.

Dr G 53:30
Every rich person.

Dr Rad 53:31
Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 53:33
Like this is how we're going to get them on side.

Dr Rad 53:35
It's at this point, that war is declared on Veii, because of course, they have no problem fielding an army after all of this.

Dr G 53:44
It's time guys. were bursting at the seams with troops.

Dr Rad 53:48
Yeah. Now, as you've said, although we have to question a lot of the material from this early period. It does make sense that there was a payment of sorts involved in this campaign, at least at some point, maybe not straightaway, maybe straightaway, who knows. But it probably wasn't something that the Romans kept in play consistently from this moment on. It was probably exactly because they is going to be a special case.

Dr G 54:19
Yes, I dare say so. So whatever is going to happen. And at the moment, in Livy's, narrative, nothing yet has happened with Veii except for the decision to go to war. But it seems like whatever is going to happen in Veii is going to be significant enough that Rome has to change the way it does things in order to pursue its military objectives.

Dr Rad 54:41
Absolutely. And Veii is a valid military objective.

Dr G 54:46
Look they have been a thorn in Rome side pretty much since the beginning.

Dr Rad 54:50
So maybe even before, after all the Etruscans seem to have been earlier.

Dr G 54:56
That's true. Yeah.

Dr Rad 54:58
Now that is where 406 actually winds up for me with the beginning, the beginning of conflict with Veii on the horizon.

Dr G 55:07
All right. Well, I think that's probably an excellent place to then wrap up this episode. I certainly don't have too much to add. I think I've, I've sprinkled in the little fragments of sources as they've appeared in relation to things. The only other thing that I could tell you is Diodorus Siculus does go into the broader Mediterranean politics a little bit,

Dr Rad 55:32
I'd love to hear that.

Dr G 55:34
And mostly focusing on Sicily at this point. So Sicily has been taken over by tyrants. We're kind, we've got a guy called Dionysius, the tyrant of Syracuse. And he is now looking to expand his power and territorial influence. So he's sitting in a pretty strategic location already with Syracuse. But he's like, You know what I would like to dominate all of the east coast of Sicily as my like branching out process. He's really interested in taking over Naxos, which is a little bit further up; Catane, which becomes Catania.; And Leontinoi, which is a little bit further north of Syracuse, but before you get to Catane. So he's keen to do that. And he's sort of like eyeing off how he's going to do it. And facing some pressure from Punic forces, because a lot of these places are being contested right now. And the Carthaginians have a presence in Sicily already. So that's kind of like this tussling going on in the south. And that's it.

Dr Rad 56:55
Okay. All right. Well, let's get into it. Dr. G, it's time for the Partial Pick

So tell me, Dr. G., exactly how does the Partial Pick work?

Dr G 57:11
Alright, so Rome, could potentially win 50 Golden Eagles across five categories, each out of 10. Let us see how they do according to their own systems of valuing themselves.

Dr Rad 57:25
But judged by us.

Dr G 57:28
We certainly wouldn't judge the Romans. The first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 57:33
Okay. Well, I think this is a bad a year for that. I mean, they can't get Anxur which seemed difficult. And yet, they did it with relatively little trouble.

Dr G 57:46
Seems to go pretty well, really, once they got the mountain caterwauling going on, and they were fine.

Dr Rad 57:55
Ahala they have it? I don't it's also the apparent year that military pay was introduced deep reservations. But this is what we're told. And I believe it is corroborated by a number of sources. So gonna have to believe Livy here. So I kind of am tempted to give them 10 out of 10.

Dr G 58:16
Wow. Okay.

Dr Rad 58:19
I mean, I could go as low as eight. But I don't think it can be any lower than that.

Dr G 58:24
Let's say nine. I'm always the ever the diplomat. I think yeah, I'm wondering what would be a 10 now for me, but uh, I think it would be more than the taking of one place, and the putative introduction of military pay. But yes.

Dr Rad 58:46
Look, I think we can believe that they are introducing some form of compensation, potentially just for the time that they are fighting with me.

Dr G 58:56
Look, I think my concern is, first of all, that in the very fragments resources that I have the siege with they would have had to start in 406. Because it's, the payment is a consequence of a military situation. Not the inducement to encourage a military force

Dr Rad 59:19
Dr. G., the patricians are way too clever. They knew they knew that this would win the pavilions onto their side again.

Dr G 59:29
I have a high degree of skepticism about Livy's timeline here, even within the narrow bracket in which he's providing so

Dr Rad 59:40
Timeline schimeline.

Dr G 59:42
it seems far more likely to me that military payment is introduced as a consequence of certain things happening. But yes, oh,

Dr Rad 59:51
Oh the patricians are far more devious and you give them credit for politicians par excellence?

Dr G 1:00:01
That is not what we have seen so far and you know it. Nice try. All right. I'll give them a nine. That's fine. Okay. And then we move on to Diplomacy.

Dr Rad 1:00:14
We may. I don't know that there's not even vague, vague.

Dr G 1:00:19
I was gonna say he doesn't try to be diplomatic and Rome certainly doesn't try to solve that situation with diplomacy.

Dr Rad 1:00:25
The insults are for lying.

Dr G 1:00:27
That's a failure on every level.

Dr Rad 1:00:29
Unfortunately, a zero

Dr G 1:00:31
Expansion.

Dr Rad 1:00:33
Yes.

Dr G 1:00:35
I assume at this point, it's obviously hard to know. But the the assumption that seems to be built into Livy's narrative, and the fragments that I've got as well is that they get to hold Anxur for a while if not forever.

Dr Rad 1:00:51
Yeah.

Dr G 1:00:51
So this is the moment where they do expand their territory. And it's significant because it is much further from Rome than say something like for Verrugo and even Antium, which they have struggled to hold in the past.

Dr Rad 1:01:04
Well fairly recently it would seem. Yeah. Okay. So what are you willing to give them Dr. G?

Dr G 1:01:12
Look, I think a six.

Dr Rad 1:01:13
What, what? It's of strategic significance!

Dr G 1:01:20
It's one place.

Dr Rad 1:01:21
I know, but it's going to be just one place for a while now.

Dr G 1:01:25
Which is, you know, I mean,

Dr Rad 1:01:27
how about a seven?

Dr G 1:01:31
Fine.

Dr Rad 1:01:32
Yay.

I'm on your side Rome. Together, we'll get over 25 and 50.

Dr G 1:01:40
Meanwhile, I'll keep giving them low scores. I just want to see more effort guys. All right. Okay. The fourth category is Virtus.

Dr Rad 1:01:51
Okay,

Dr G 1:01:52
Their idea of Roman manliness. Like, how courageous How significant is their expression of their masculinity right now?

Dr Rad 1:02:06
Well, I think there's a bit of virtus in this episode.

Dr G 1:02:08
It's been a while. We've definitely seen some scars. We have maybe too many scars.

Dr Rad 1:02:14
Definitely too many. I have scars for life.

Dr G 1:02:19
But I think as soon as anybody takes off their tunic to show their scars, I think we can safely say we're in a virtus moment.

Dr Rad 1:02:27
Yeah. It's not the best moment.

Dr G 1:02:29
It's not the best moment. But it is an inducement. It is a display in public of how they've contributed to Romanness through their body.

Dr Rad 1:02:41
Yeah.

Dr G 1:02:42
So this idea that Roman manhood is embodied in a really particular way. And one of those really particular ways is through that military sacrifice, and the courage that it takes to not flee from battle, because the thing about showing your wounds is the wounds have to be on the front of your body. Or on the back in order to count for waiters. Nobody wants to see that you ran away, and somebody tried to stab you.

Dr Rad 1:03:09
I'm super curious as to why Livy's Like there's not even any space on their bodies. For most guys. I'm like, Well, they'd want to be on the back.

Dr G 1:03:18
Well, maybe, and maybe he's talking exclusively about the front,

Dr Rad 1:03:23
I assume as much is the case

Dr G 1:03:23
Maybe it's the case that some of the skirmishes do lead to a lot of other kinds of scars.

Dr Rad 1:03:29
This is true, but yeah, Look, I mean, especially for someone who is a Roman citizen, and although I might be projecting backwards a little bit, but I think that this is probably true for this time. In theory, also showing your body in public is not something that you do on a regular basis.

Dr G 1:03:49
Yeah, the Romans aren't into that. They're not very, they're not very cool with bodies. This is where well before the time that they come into, like strong contact with Greek culture and really embrace some of that stuff. Yeah, but even when they do embrace the Greek cultural side, there's a whole bunch of Greek things that the Greeks are comfortable with that the Romans are never never comfortable with to do with body

Dr Rad 1:04:10
The Romans as a people were there like there's a time and a place and a status. Slaves are the ones you know, slaves and prostitutes and gladiators. You're all the ones that show off your bodies in public, not I.

Dr G 1:04:25
The Romans are an awkward people when it comes to some stuff to do with bodies. So yeah, yeah. They'd be like, Oh, okay, all the scars are at the front. Verified. Please put the tunic back on.

Dr Rad 1:04:35
Put it away. So what like a three do you think?

Dr G 1:04:38
Ooh, maybe a four.

Dr Rad 1:04:41
Oh okay. Hey, big spender.

Dr G 1:04:43
Hello.

Dr Rad 1:04:45
All right. All right. Okay. final category.

Dr G 1:04:47
Our final category is the Citizens Score

Well they are very excited

The citizens do score don't they

Dr Rad 1:04:54
They really do they do. They know what's coming but they think they do.

Dr G 1:05:00
Like, Oh, hail the fathers.

Dr Rad 1:05:04
I mean, to think about all the times that the citizens have been so unhappy, and all of a sudden had to do was institute military pay.

Dr G 1:05:13
The solution was right there, guys.

Dr Rad 1:05:15
I mean, having said this, obviously, as we've, as we've talked about, this is presumably opening the door for a wider range of people to serve. So presumably, it's people who haven't served much before that might be super exciting.

Dr G 1:05:33
Yeah, Look, I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. Yeah, no, we shouldn't I don't think this is evidence of a system of payment.

Dr Rad 1:05:41
Oh, no, it isn't. Like at the moment, they're just like, Oh, my God just came out of nowhere. took me by surprise.

Dr G 1:05:49
You know what, I'm gonna volunteer. That's what I'm gonna do.

Dr Rad 1:05:52
So you know what, actually, this is very much this. I don't know if you remember this scene in Sliding Doors, and it's popped up in a few other comedies since the idea that men only buy flowers spontaneously when they've done something wrong. I feel like that is what is going on here, Dr G. The patricians only gave us so when they've got any evil plan working in their back pocket. Bad luck. The citizens are very excited. Presumably, this is affecting a wider range of citizens and we're normally talking about

Dr G 1:06:26
Yeah, and it does seem that on the flip side, the military campaigning that Rome has engaged in in this year with Anxur has gone well,

Dr Rad 1:06:37
Absolutely. Booty.

Dr G 1:06:41
Very good for the Romans.

Dr Rad 1:06:43
That's what we care about at the moment, we can deal with we can be sympathetic, but once we're scoring, it's all Rome.

Dr G 1:06:48
That exactly, so I think it's a pretty good time to be a Roman citizen.

Dr Rad 1:06:52
Yeah. Should we give it like a seven?

Dr G 1:06:55
Oooo Let's.

Dr Rad 1:06:56
Oh my god. Dr. G., to you realize that that means that for the first time in a really long time, their variants have got just over 50% they're on 27 Golden Eagles.

Dr G 1:07:12
Oh, well done, Ancient Rome. Yeah, all it took was a big military victory and paying your troops being nice to people who would have needed the basics, the basics, guys.

Dr Rad 1:07:28
All right, well, what a high day I can't wait to talk about four or five with you. It's gonna be another big year. I think. I'm excited.

Dr G 1:07:40
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there's a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time. If you're keen to chip in, you can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi, or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book ‘Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome' at partialhistorians.com Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is a very exciting special episode all about the Roman military. We were incredibly fortunate to speak to an expert in the field about the Roman army in the early and middle republic. 

Special Episode – The Early Roman Military with Dr Bret Devereaux

Dr Bret Devereaux is a historian specialising in the ancient world and military history. He holds a PhD in ancient history from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and an MA in classical civilizations from Florida State University. He teaches at North Carolina State University. 

His research interests include the Roman economy and the Roman military. Key to this is considering how the lives of people were shaped by structures of power, violence and wealth and the ways these factors shaped military capacity.

His monograph Why the Romans Always Won: Mobilizing Military Power in the Ancient Mediterranean is under contract with Oxford University Press. We cannot wait to get our hands on a copy, and we’re sure you will want to put this on your wish list too! 

Dr Devereaux is an incredibly passionate and eloquent scholar, and he was very generous with his time. In this episode we were able to explore the evolution of Roman warfare from small-scale, localised conflicts to epic clashes with civilisations like the Carthaginians. 

Dr Bret Devereaux

Things to Look Out For:

• Lots of issues in our source material! How unusual for us
• War between powerful Roman clans 
• The Fabulous Fabians and the Battle of the Cremera
• The sophisticated military system developed by the Romans 
• War with King Pyrrhus of Epirus (Pyrrhic Wars)  
• The Punic Wars (Rome vs Carthage)
• Discussion of Livy 8.8
• Polybius' description of the Roman Army

You can follow and support Bret at his blog A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry: A look at history and popular culture. Here you will find fascinating blog posts, book recommendations and collections of resources that you might find useful if you are a teacher.  

If you are keen to learn more about the academics mentioned during the interview, you can find a list of the scholars mentioned below: 

• Nathan Rosenstein 
  • Imperatores Victi: Military Defeat and Aristocratic Competition in the Middle and Late Republic. Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press. (1990)
  • Rome and the Mediterranean 290 to 146 BC : the Imperial Republic
• Jeremy Armstrong
  • The Consulship of 367 BC and the Evolution of Roman Military Authority
  •  Romans at war : soldiers, citizens and society in the Roman Republic
  •  Early roman warfare : from the regal period to the first Punic War
• Walter Schiedel 
  • The Great Leveler: Violence and the History of Inequality from the Stone Age to the Twenty-First Century (2017)
  • On Human Bondage: After Slavery and Social Death (2017) 
  • The Cambridge Companion to the Roman Economy (2012)
• Peter Connolly
  • Greece and Rome at War (1981)
• Lawrence Keppie
  • The making of the Roman Army from Republic to Empire (1984)

Sound Credits

Our music is by the wonderful Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Automated Transcript

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. And

Dr G 0:30
I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 1:03
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr. G,

Dr Rad 1:11
and I'm Dr Rad

Dr G 1:13
and we are super thrilled to be joined by Dr. Brett Devereaux. Hello.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:19
Hello. Great to be here.

Dr G 1:21
Thank you so much for joining us. We are going to be talking today all about Roman military things, which I think is a super interesting topic and one that Dr. Rad and myself confess that we know not so much about so we wanted to bring in somebody who was a specialist. So Dr. Brett Devereaux is a historian who specialises in the ancient world and military history. He holds a PhD in ancient history from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and has an MA in classical civilization civilization from Florida State University, and He currently teaches at North Carolina State University. His research interests include the Roman economy and the Roman military. Key to this study is considering how the lives of people were shaped by structures of power. How violence and wealth are factors that influence and shape military capacity. He currently has a monograph under contract with Oxford University Press, which will be entitled Why the Romans Always Won: mobilising military power in the ancient Mediterranean. And he is also very famous online for running the popular blog, A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry: A Look at history and popular culture. So this is super exciting. Thank you.

Dr Bret Devereaux 2:43
So I'm excited. Thanks for having me on.

Dr G 2:46
I feel like our first point of controversy is going to be setting up the periods which might be under discussion. So I have said that we're going to be talking about things possibly from the early republic, likely from the middle Republic, and we might touch on some things from the late Republic. And I feel like if you're listening to this show, you might be like, Okay, that's cool. The Republic has different phases. And you will be unsurprised to learn that historians don't necessarily agree about these. And only some of the dates are on fuzzy. So the early republic, I'm going to say, start in 509 BCE, when they chuck out the kings, and takes us all the way down to around about 264 BCE, which is the start of the First Punic War. But I will defer to you, Brett, what would you say about that?

Dr Bret Devereaux 3:41
I mean, I think that's a defensible end date. It's the mark of when Roman military activity begins to push outside of Italy. And the First Punic War is the first moment where we get because our sources are improving over time, we get to see the Roman military machine very clearly. Because we have Polybius all of a sudden, and so I think that's a defensible date. I would be tempted to push the transition to the middle Republic earlier, probably in the late fourth century, something like 338 340 Because I think the military system is functioning more or less the same way that far back but the evidence is is weaker, but but somewhere in that space. Yeah. And then the middle Republic runs question mark, question mark. 133? 107? 101? Somewhere in there. Before we begin the Late Republic.

Dr Rad 4:34
Somewhere with the Gracchi. And Marius.

Dr G 4:36
Yeah it gets a little bit dicey as soon as Tiberius Gracchus is elected tribune of the plebs. Yeah, so around about 133 anywhere down to about 101 is the bulk of the end of the middle Republic and the start of the late Republic. And then you get into the controversy of when does the late Republic end and that depends on how you feel about Augustus. So you know, I know I know you have some feelings about it. So do I. Strong feelings about Augustus, I'm going to say that I think the late Republic is fully over in 27. When he gets the title Augustus, it's at that point where it's like, he basically owns the whole of the Senate and anybody who's willing to say anything. And at that point, I think we can say that functionally, the Republic is no longer doing its thing. It's doing something else now.

Dr Bret Devereaux 5:32
But Augustus told me he restored the Republic, are you telling me he lied to me?

Dr G 5:38
This dude that would have guessed this lie? I mean, I wouldn't want to say yes to that.

Dr Rad 5:44
Brett, I hate to break it to you on this podcast, but never leave believe anything a man says.

Dr Bret Devereaux 5:51
That's, that's gonna be my role in this podcast very difficult.

Dr G 5:55
This is gonna get tough as it goes along. Alright, so with that sort of chaos of periodization, somewhat resolved. Let's jump into the first sort of topic. And we're going to start broad and hopefully narrow in as we go through. Brett, what does it mean, to talk about military force when it comes to ancient Rome?

Dr Bret Devereaux 6:18
So this is an excitingly open ended question. Obviously, we are, for the most part, talking about armies. But already I think when I use that word, especially when we're talking about the early Republican, especially when we're talking about the first century of the early republic, as moderns we are incorporating ideas when we use that word army that we should maybe be sceptical about like we say army, we are imagining a formal military institution with things like regular issue weapons and uniforms and standardised trainings. And oh, boy, are the Romans not doing that this early. Some of these, you know, military forces that we're going to talk about in the late regnal period in the early republic, are not state run armies, they are clan militias. You know, the whole extended family can go to war with your neighbours. We're talking about states that are or that dispersed in power. We also are going to get centralised armies, as we're going to see one of the major debates about the warfare in the early republic is really when can we understand that Rome actually has a centralised army under central leadership? I think at no point in this podcast, will the Romans get a uniform?

Dr G 7:38
This is very disappointing.

Dr Bret Devereaux 7:42
Roman soldiers are expected to acquire and supply their own equipment through the middle Republic and then there is argument as to when exactly in the late Republic, we start to see state issued equipment, you will sometimes see arguement that Gaius Gracchus does this but I would say that the textual support for that is functionally non existent. That is not what Plutarch says. And so no, he doesn't. And so we don't know, we know that by the Imperial period, there is state issued equipment, and it is being manufactured by the state, but we don't know when that starts. So for most of this period, people are bringing their own kit, there are eventually regulations as to what kit they should bring, we'll get into the arguments about when those regulations are made. Not as early as Livy thinks. So you might like okay, you have to have a shield and has to be kind of like this, but like the shields you bring is like whatever you want, you've decorated it how you want maybe you want it a little heavier, a little lighter, a little bigger, a little smaller, that's fine. On these aren't uniform like that. And then there's a whole sort of secondary question of okay, what does that mean for how these guys fight? How tactically uniform are they? Certainly by the time we can see this army, clearly which, you know, I mean, I would say Polybius, I think you could push this back to the Punic Wars, the Romans have a tactical system. And it's fairly sophisticated, how far back you can push that tricky, as we'll get into, but also the kinds of military activity they're engaged with. Our sources are for the most part writing in the first century, we're talking about the early republic, because we have cut the early republic off 10 seconds before Polybius shows up, which is fair. And those first century sources have a nasty habit of reading the army of their own day into the evidence they have in the army of their day, is a sophisticated, well funded, well equipped, semi professional, centrally controlled force. It is, by ancient standards, a highly sophisticated and centralised army. And so, you know, Livy will read about battles happening in the four hundreds, and he conceives of these as like, Oh, we're besieging this town for five years and he is thinking of a high intensity cedar, the centralised army and like that could be cattle rustling, that could be raiding. This could be little more than brigandage. The Army may not be this centralised. And it's clear in some cases that it wasn't, we'll get this is going to be a repeated touchstone to the battle of the Cremera. In in 477 Sure major episode that I'm going to come back to over and over again, but like, what the famiIy were clearly doing here was like raids. They're not he's like, you know, they're like laying waste and seizing the place. And like, there's 300 of them. They're not doing anything of the sort. There's like stealing cattle, and like pillaging barns, you know. And so, it becomes really tricky to identify moments of increasing sophistication. Because Livy or, you know, Dionysius or Diodorus, or Cassius Dio, other universal history writers that are even later, like, they read, like the army went here, and they think the army of their day, and you know, so you know, it's, it's, there's a huge range, and it's, this is a continually changing institution, that we get snapshots up, and then those snapshots are distorted. With lots of blanks.

Dr Rad 11:08
Yeah, it's very reassuring to hear an expert say that, because I must admit, we've been quite shocked to see how much our sources are reading backwards, when they're talking about the army and the fabulous Fabii.

Dr Bret Devereaux 11:25
Notice how notice how unwilling Livy generally is to give army numbers in his early books, when Livy's Gonna pop back up right when we Livy's surge is back to us in 218. And we get that wonderful stretch from 218 to 167, where we have a continuous narrative from Livy's. And his sources don't suck, he loves army numbers, and they are precise. He's like, there were this many men, and every year the legions were filled up and everything and he's very, and he is nothing like that early on. And that's a clear signal. He doesn't have that information. He has no idea how big these armies are. I mean, ironically, the baby's an exception, he thinks there are 300 of them. Though, that's a number which should immediately make us sceptical because, of course, there are lots of famous bands of 300 warriors.

Dr Rad 12:15
gonna say that feels like a selective choice.

Dr Bret Devereaux 12:20
right, that's a number that we should not believe. But it's clearly been communicated to Livy. And so, yeah, the sources here are, are rough. Livy to his credit, is doing his best. Not fully credulous. He is occasionally sceptical. He occasionally indicates things he doesn't know. He complains about invented triumphs and consulships. There are points where he is just clearly confused in ways that perhaps a savvy writer would have concealed. But on the other hand, you know, he's mostly what we have. And, you know, we're talking about the four hundreds in the three hundreds, the Romans only start writing their history themselves at the end of the third century Ennius and Fabius Pictor are a long way away. And so Livy doesn't have a lot to work with. And that makes it really hard to know what's going on.

Dr Rad 13:14
Yeah, it's kind of like history is Mad Libs.

Dr Bret Devereaux 13:18
And then, and then the sources Livy's does have, he doesn't always understand. Or he has sources that don't understand their sources. And the classic example for this is this battle. This is in book four of Livy. The the capture and then recapture of Fidenae in Latium. Ah, yes, the notes it's it's 434 that he's like, and some analysts say that there was a fight cum classem, between fleets. And he's like, but that's ridiculous. There's no water here. What we know from some of our other sources, what is confused living in his sources? Is that a classis in Livy's de means a fleet, but in early Latin, it means an army. In particular, it means the whole citizen body is an army, when his sources are trying to tell him is that were once like the central army, the army that is controlled by the consoles or the king like the big army showed up and had a fight with the other guys big army, not just a cattle raid or something. We had a big fight, but live he doesn't understand that and so he's like, a battle with fleets like what on this stream? Are you joking? And so he is counted. He's like, that obviously didn't happen. This is a made up battle, because he's misunderstood how the word classes is being used because its meaning has changed. There's a similar sort of, we can get to the train wreck of Livy's Eight Eight, and his description of the Roman army, but a similar problem with like, what is you know, what does it mean for someone to be before the spear antepilani? What are the Ordines? What are these units? What the hell are a accensi and what do they do? These were have changed their meanings, in some cases between Livy in his sources, and he is just terribly confused. And you feel bad for the fellow he's doing his best.

Dr Rad 15:10
You know, and I feel empathy with Livy. Because I feel like that a lot of the time.

Dr Bret Devereaux 15:16
We're doing our best.

Dr Rad 15:17
So Look, obviously, as as we've just hinted out in that conversation there, you know that we're following the ancient written sources for the early republic, because that's where we're at in our episodes right now. So we're mostly focusing on Livy's, Dionysios, and Diodorus. And that sort of thing. And we can see that they, they did at least understand that Rome's rise to world domination was gradual, and that they obviously have to do stuff, you know, to stop and explain some of these military things, as you were saying, without necessarily understanding them fully, or really appreciating how they worked in this early period. One of the things we keep coming up against is this idea of the levee, because this is often used as a weapon in the conflict of the orders, where we have tribunes of the players who are like there's not going to be a military levy. I don't care how severe the military situation is, and consuls who are like, Oh, you don't understand there's a crisis going on. We have to deal with it. Now. We didn't have time for this crap. So how do we understand the levy of the soldiers in this very early period and the sixth in the fifth centuries BCE? Right.

Dr Bret Devereaux 16:24
So And here's one of those are going to be like our sources say, and then I'm going to tell you that they're full of it. So our sources and this is Dionysius and Livy's, present the creation of a formal and centrally commanded system for the raising of Roman levy as originating with the semi legendary King Servius Tullius. This is the Servian constitution. I know you've discussed it, that would put it in the mid sixth century. We know the Serbian constitution, as described to us cannot date from the mid sixth century. The the most obvious issue is, are the wealth classes based on currency amounts. Now, the good news, this is one of these rare moments of good news, Dionysius, Livy, and Polybius all provide a wealth figure for the cut off for the first class of the infantry in the Roman army. And even better yet, though, they all give it in different currency units. They have given us the same figure, I think Dionysius is in minae, Polybius is in drachma and Livy's in asses. And you're like, Wow, a fixed piece of data reported by multiple sources, this must be good. Bad news. The currency conversion only works if Livy is giving it with the sextantal asses, which is the the the as, the bronze Roman currency goes through a long series of permutations. The first bit of bad news is that it straight up doesn't exist in the fifth in the fifth or sixth century, the Romans developed currency late. But the really bad news is that the currency standard Livy's Clearly using is the sextantal as, and what must be happening, of course, because the Romans did not lay out their wealth classifications in Greek currency figures, the real number must be an asses that Polybius and Dionysius have converted. But the sextantal asses introduced in 212

Dr G 18:15
are no, that's nowhere near the sixth century. So this is Livy's. What do you do unto us?

Dr Bret Devereaux 18:23
What are you doing? And so all three sources, their system, at least their numbers, must date to the Second Punic War. And I think for reasons we don't need to get into here that Polybius is describing the army of the Second Punic War, which is the army of about 40 to 50 years before he's writing. And Polybius is savvy enough to know that and tell us that, because he's occasionally like, they used to do this, and now they do this. But obviously like, then that raises all sorts of questions for the entire system. Does it even make sense, for instance, for Servius Tullius, to lay down a wealth system based on monetary units at all? No, there's no coinage in Italy at this point. Um, the Greeks have barely adopted coinage. It hasn't made it this far. Ironically, glanced over at Athens in the same century, and you will see so long crafting wealth classes and not defining them by coinage but by bushels of wheat that your farm produces, which might make a lot more sense. But of course, that's not what our sources tell us. So the Servian constitution is like, is this later and retrojected? it's clearly something that the earliest Roman historians believe existed way back then. Are they anachronism, the wealth requirements? Is this later if it's later, how much later? And so there's sort of all of these, all of these problems. And here, I'm going to break and I'm going to make this distinction repeatedly. There is a sort of traditional interpretation, and then I'm going to note A specific scholar who has recently taken issue with this, which is Jeremy Armstrong, who is effort to push all of the dates I'm going to be kind of budget Jeremy Armstrong for you all, for most of today. The traditional reading is to Look at the Servian constitution and say, okay, the wealth classes are kind of nonsense. But the equipment described could actually be right for the sixth century, especially the implication that the wealthy who aren't super rich and on horses, don Greek style equipment, and everybody else has local style equipment. Yeah, that's what we see in artwork. That's what we see in elite grave depositions. That makes a lot of sense. And so the traditional view is to say that what Livy and Dionysius have done is they have taken and probably not them, but their predecessors have taken a military system that did exist and embellished it into something more organised, but that there is some kind of central levy that the king is in charge of arguing against this right, Jeremy Armstrong pushes back at this and says, No, what you want to understand here is no centralised army. What there is, is a collection of elite gentes of these clans, and that if there is a centralised Roman army under the Kings, what's happening here is that the king has gotten the heads of all of the gentes together, and those gentilic armies, which is like these elite patrician families and all of their clients. Those are the compositional units of the army. It is certainly the case that we have evidence in our sources, that Roman army sometimes work like that. I will note that Livy's certainly doesn't think the Royal Army works like that. He, for instance, thinks that the Brutus that founds the Republic is a tribune of the Celeres, he thinks that there is an office of cavalry commander, that it is an office that is like a military Tribune and has that title. Interesting because military tributes aren't going to pop up in Livy's narrative until much later and under weird circumstances. And what's also striking is that this unit is called the Celeres, a term that I think it's a term Dionysius also uses, and which is not the name of a later Roman unit. So Livy is probably not inventing this, there probably really were Celeres, the Swift ones. And that was the name for the cavalry before they were the equites. And so my own view and here I fall somewhere between the traditional view and the kind of Jeremy Armstrong revisionist view, because he's convinced me on some points, is to imagine a kind of hybrid military under the kings, that there is sometimes this kind of centralised military and the king could appoint officers to it though, evidently, he always appoints them out of these elite patrician gentes who, of course, the leaders of which are the guys in the Senate, and the Senate advises the king. So you can see how these institutions locked together. But we definitely have what we might describe as gentilic warfare, a clan based warfare that is happening in the background that might not involve the king. And we should also keep in mind that the Kings authority here is not maybe as absolute as we think when we hear the word King. It's worth noting that the semi legendary and legendary Roman kings we have don't tend to come from the same family. This office isn't hereditary, they seem to be picked by the aristocracy, they do seem to have the job for life. But that makes the transition from King to elected magistrate a lot less stark. We have gone from the aristocracy picks a war leader for life to the aristocracy picks a world leader for a one year limited term. In either case, he's drawn from the aristocracy. And he has this set of powers. And in fact, he has this legal power called Imperium, which is the same power, unlike the Greeks who when they kick out there kings, abolish royal power and split up those jobs. The Romans are like you can't do that. Imperium is indivisible. So theoretically, I think the levy is sort of kind of working this early, at least occasionally. There is the secondary question, how far down does the levy reach? And I think here, the answer cannot be very far. The Romans aren't paying their soldiers. And we certainly don't get the sense early on in Livy, that the resource in manpower steamroller of the middle Republic, is in any way in operation. So when we're imagining this army, under the kings are the early republic, the centralised army, the non gentilin army, we're probably still imagining a pretty aristocratic institution where the elites roll up with their fancy imported style Greek arms and armour. Their clients have shown up with local italic stuff, and that's probably it. It is really striking for instance, levy imagines that the Roman census has been conducted continuously from The dawn of the Republic. But then he sheepishly admits this is Livy's four eight that the censorship is created in 443. And he's like over the consuls were doing it before then he doesn't give a census figure before 465. And we know at least in the middle Republic, when our evidence gets better, the census was the vital tool for general conscription, that the Census provided the documents by which the Romans decided who was in the Army this year. So if the census isn't happening for the first 40 or 50 years of the Republic, this army must be quite narrow indeed, because there's no way to draw the full body of the citizenry into it.

Dr Rad 25:40
It sounds almost feudal in nature.

Dr G 25:42
Yeah, it does. I mean, it took it does resonate with the sorts of things that we've been drawing from what Livy and Dionysius and Diodorus have been suggesting, because it does seem like we've got a situation where it's like it's family based, that this sort of the conflict of the orders that keeps coming up and dominates the narrative of this early Republic is a bit of a mishmash of various things that we know are going to be happening later on. And this levy sort of allows them to introduce a conflict within the citizen body about the direction of Rome. So it kind of allows for a character development, if you like, like, what are Romans and how the Romans come to the Romans. And I think reading it through that kind of lens is really quite helpful. Now, you said that the they don't get paid. And then we get this really interesting moment, both Diodorus Siculus and Livy's mention that they get paid for the first time in 406 BCE. This is a spoiler for any listeners, Justin had to cover it. Because we have literally not recorded that episode yet. So I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say all of my thoughts on 406 BCE yet, but it might be influenced by what you tell us, Brett. This idea that the soldiers get paid, all of a sudden appears and when I came across it and the source materials like, oh, my god, somebody paid them. And I was like, What are the chances. But this is a massive year for the Romans. As far as our annalistic sources are concerned, they're facing trouble on multiple fronts. This is an issue that Rome seems to be facing a lot during this period, where they've got conflict coming up from the south, from the Volscians, and the Aequians, to the more to the east, they've also got this pressure coming down from the Etruscans. And that seems to be hotting up again for them. And now all of a sudden, there's this sense in which they need a large a reasonably large force in order to be able to be on all of those fronts at the same time. But we

Dr Bret Devereaux 27:47
don't a couple of decades out from having serious Gallic problems.

Dr G 27:56
Just know, people aren't ready to do that they haven't watched the whole series.

Dr Bret Devereaux 28:01
Romans aren't ready for it either. So we're all on the same boat here.

Dr G 28:05
Definitely not. So I think it is reasonable to assume that 406 is maybe a bit of a furphy of a day. But I am interested about when and how we know that payment of soldiers develops for Rome.

Dr Bret Devereaux 28:21
I mean, so we are, are this substantially reliant on the reports of our sources, but we have this from Livy and Diodorus, and Plutarch. And I mean, like, Plutarch is like a quarter of a source when it comes to these kinds of things. And they all put it on the same date. And so there might be something to it, I think, sort of the traditional scholarship, because I'm gonna get to Jeremy Armstrong in a second. Because I do think that contrast is useful for listeners to hear and it'll give them a sense of like the range of what we think the traditional scholarship sees 406 Sometimes scholars will get spooked and they'll just say, circa 400. Ish, but our sources are really clear that it's 406 that see this as a key moment of development in a process that has probably be gone way back in the 470s. And is going to culminate again, massive spoilers after the Gallic sack of Rome, probably. And, and so if we sort of wind back, right, we want to ask, Okay, where did the gentilic armies go? Because obviously, you don't need to pay your soldiers if they're all your family members and clients, right? There's a relationships are governing this. The traditional answer to this is to point at the Battle of the Cremera and 477, which I know you've discussed Livy's to dot 49 and following where we get like the one point where Livy's Like, here is some gentilic warfare that is happening. The Fabii go out, start their own war and then lose it catastrophically. And then just to, you know, add on, like the Roman state then intervenes and also does poorly for a number of years. So things are not going well, the traditional view has been to see this sort of catastrophic defeat. And the fact that our sources never mentioned against doing warfare like this ever, again, is to say, this is the moment gentilic warfare stops. And to see this in the context where Look, states and communities in Italy are getting more sophisticated over time. Italy is a rough neighbourhood, the warfare here is is getting increasingly no holds barred. You can sort of see that with the rough way that the nascent Roman Republic treats its flattened neighbours to the south and like we're going to inflict a pretty unequal treaty on you. Obviously, they're going to resettle that treaty in the 3340s and 330s, which we'll get to because that's going to change the military system, and so to see is like the Fabii go out thinking that it's still like the 560s. And a single gens can do this kind of warfare, and are rudely informed by Veii that no, you can't stay. It's become too centralised, and they get steamrolled by a major state army of Etruscans. And the Romans are like, let's not do that ever again. Now, what Jeremy Armstrong will point out is that that neat divide is too neat. The Fabii start their war in 479, when it is worth noting that the head of their Gens Caeso Fabius is the consul or praeter, maybe later. So this may have in fact been a Roman war. This Fabian clan army may have been a consular army people can't see but I'm making sneer quotes to begin with. And so this is sort of this is sort of tricky, and Armstrong uses this in some other evidence to argue that gentilic, warfare may actually be continuing later than this and Livy may just not know it. That said, as noted, shortly thereafter, we start to get census figures from Livy. Notably, compared to our other sources that give us earlier census figures Livy's census figures do not round off tonight's neat numbers, his figure for 465 is 104,714. The other convenient thing, you if you Look at the demographic math, you think about the size of the Roman state, that number is possible. That could be a real number. some level of undercounting, surely, presumably the very poor not being counted, it's definitely only counting men, all those issues. But civium capita tote right which is the formula Livy's always gives the census figures with that could be the real number. So Livy may not be kidding that the Census is started up at this point, that would suggest a greater desire to expand the army. And we're of course, seeing that Rome is under a lot of military pressure in this period. And as that pressure intensifies, the Romans reach for manpower, you need to get more guys. And as you know, 406 is a gnarly year, the security situation in Italy is getting rough. And it's only about to get rougher. And so the Romans may have felt like we need to make this move. And so again, the traditional scholarship sees this as the break point where the army is now beginning to incorporate the plebeians generally, is of course gonna matter for the struggle of the orders, but even poor plebeians, and that certainly fits with when we see the army of the middle Republic. One of the things that is very striking about it is that Roman recruitment clearly reaches very far down the socio economic ladder, while you still have to have some property to qualify for the Roman army. It's not a lot in the middle Republic, you know, probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 85 90% of the citizen male body are wealthy enough to be eligible for the army, right, the capite censi those who are too poor to serve seems to be a very small slice of the Roman citizen body. And he Nathan Rosenstein sort of tackle this question, and I think proved it. And so the introduction of pay is kind of a necessary step along this road. Now, of course, immediately Livy's says they introduce pay the stipendium Militarum. And then he doesn't give us any details. We know how legionary pay works in the Second Punic War, because Polybius tells us but we're immediately questions can we retro eject them? In the Second Punic War, we know that Roman soldiers get paid a daily wage, but that the cost of their food and supplies is subtracted from it, if they are missing any equipment or lose any of it that is also docked from their pay. And we can certainly assume the clear implication of the system is described is that most of this pay is is booked pay. It's being kept in the coop quaestor's logs, they're not getting handed money very often. Sometimes. Clearly. When Rome sends armies they feel the need to send coinage with them at that late date. They certainly can't be doing it in 406 because they don't have any coinage yet. So once again, how are they paying these eyes, it could be interesting grain. What Livy's may understand is military pay may just be the state now feeds you.

It could be something that simple, and therefore the poor can come along. Because they don't need to bring an allowance in may be something that simple. Conveniently for us, like the reason we can be sure that Polybius isn't blowing smoke about the Roman pay system is that the Roman pay system continues to work exactly that way into the imperial period, when the Romans politely send soldiers to Egypt, where their pay stubs written on papyrus can survive. And so we can read them and we can be like, Oh, that's how they did the accounting, which is really, which is really fun. And you see the same deductions, deductions for food deductions for clothes. This guy wore out his sandals like minus 15 denarii there, that kind of thing. But is it working that way? In 406? Is it that sophisticated God, I'd be shocked if it was. I mean, it would be startling because again, this is not yet really a coinage society. This early Jeremy Armstrong would I think except most of what I just said, but he would kind of push the dating of the implications further back and he would want to see like the incorporation of poor plebeians eeehhhhhh. Let's Let's date that a little later. He sees the formation of a kind of centralised Roman Army as a process as he puts it that runs the incorporation of the plebs that runs from 450, all the way out to 390. And a little bit further. Whereas I think traditional scholarship is like 406, like, dot dot done. And I'm pretty sympathetic with Jeremy's arguments here, that this is perhaps a longer process, but it's still an important breakpoint. And it's setting the groundwork for what is what is to come. I would also know here, there are a bunch of other really interesting things that are happening in the late fifth and early fourth century when it comes to warfare in Italy. And here, I will note an extraordinary frustration created by the Romans. It is the case that we're ever the Romans expand, starting in the three hundreds at least. So as they begin to pull Italy under their control, wherever they go. Warrior burials and elite warrior artwork stop. This is extraordinarily obnoxious, like you get the third Samnite war, Samnium is finally Roman territory and like boom, the Samnites are not burying aristocrats with their armour anymore. And so Rome is this creeping gap in our evidence. Nevertheless, from what evidence survives, we can see that the early three hundreds are evidently a period of pretty radical, tactical and equipment change, whereas elite equipment prior to this, the wealthiest guys are mostly using Greek style stuff, which is both the big Greek shield the Aspis, Greek style body armour, both Greek style helmets and then also like local interesting variations of Greek style helmet, he had some really wacky looking like apulo Corinthian helmets, some of which I doubt that anyone ever actually wore. I mean, some of them really do Look like display pieces rather than real armour. Always something to be worried about. Armies create parade equipment in all periods. Folks who know the Roman army somewhat later may be familiar with Imperial period cavalry masks where you get these helmets that has like a full face mask on no one wore that to fight that was that was for parade that was not a battlefield piece of equipment that was that was you know,

Dr G 38:36
you don't you don't want to you don't want to see things when you're on the battle field. No. Madness

Dr Rad 38:42
It would help me go into battle if I couldn't see what was laying ahead. That's true.

Dr Bret Devereaux 38:47
But so we have that sort of system. And what we see in the three hundreds is the clear in blocks of a lot of external we might say military material culture, the the round Greek style aspis drops away. Livy explicitly says that this happens with the introduction of military pay, it is replaced by the cheap guys shields, which are these larger rectangular shields. We know from artwork that rectangular central boss shields like this existed in Italy earlier, but it's also pretty clear from the structure of the Roman shield once we can see clearly later that the Romans have borrowed design elements from the Latin shield the Gallic or Celtic shield from the north. So this is a sort of a fusion of an Italian shield shape, with design elements that are Gallic to create a kind of distinctly Italian riff on the Latin oval shield. At the same time we get Greek sword forms, the corpus and the syphilis begin to vanish, replaced by our evidence is really thin, but it seems like Gallic Sword forms. We have one really neat sword from this period that God bless it is inscribed. And it Smith has said, I made this in Rome. Nice, beautiful Look after that.

Dr G 40:17
offer a better piece of evidence really.

Dr Bret Devereaux 40:19
I know it's beautiful. And then someone deposited it in a sanctuary so that we can have it. What's striking is its form. If the inscription wasn't on it, we would have said this is an early Latin sword. A Latin one sword and so we're like, okay, so the Romans have picked up a Gallic style shield. They're picking up a Gallic style sword. This is not yet the Gladius to be clear, or let me rephrase. This is not yet the Gladius Hispaniensis it's not the famous Gladius Gladius itself is not a native Latin word that looks to be a Celtic word. The Romans have imported a word to describe the sorts they're picking up. Latin has its own perfectly serviceable word for sword Ensis which becomes poetic and very archaic, and no one uses it. In addition, at the same time, we see some of these fancier Greek style helmets beginning to get pushed out by the montefortino helmet type, which is also an Italian take on a Gallic helmet, and by the First Punic War, montefortino was replastered. This is just what the Romans were all of them everywhere. You can tell when the Romans have shown up because suddenly you have a tonne of montefortinos in the archaeological record and every other helmets vanishes.

Dr G 41:35
Look, it sounds like they learnt a lot from whatever happened when they lost to the Gallic when they

Dr Bret Devereaux 41:41
deed, and so, so you have a number of things that are happening. I should note also the pilum, the Roman heavy javelins seems to be adopted in this period too. And I think Jeremy Armstrong is right to say probably also from the Gauls. The Romans think it's from the Samnites. And Jeremy thinks they're wrong. And I think he's right, that they're wrong. It's probably from the Gauls. And so you have military pay is introduced in 406. The Romans lose badly to the Gauls in 390. By 338, Livy's Describing a military system that has begun to Look like the one we'll see later, although again, Livy's terribly confused. And it is predicated on a lot of Gallic kit. And it does now seem fully centralised state run based on a mass conscript, levy. So this seems to be the critical period where the sort of Polybian Roman army that we know and love is coming into being. Now, the great news is, hey, we finally know what's going on. The bad news is, suddenly, we have to question any retro rejection of any of these things earlier than this point. Because they're like, Wait, there's clearly from like, for tannish to like, 380 ish, a period of significant change, not just in, in how they're paid in who serves in how they're organised and how they fight in the stuff they use to fight. So what can we know before that? And Jeremy argues that actually, the Servian constitution probably dates to this period. He is a break from older scholarship in this regard. But you can see why that argument would be seductive, but it would render us even more blind to what's happening in the earlier four hundreds.

Dr G 43:28
Now, now, we're missing a whole 100 years where we don't know anything.

Dr Rad 43:33
And not saying anything is actually

Dr Bret Devereaux 43:37
right. No exact exactly what I'm seeing is Roman history starts in 264. And I mean, really, like you guys are a myths podcast.

Dr G 43:43
New tagline, mythology brought to you by

Dr Rad 43:51
Let's end the interview now.

Dr Bret Devereaux 43:54
I know right now, I'm never getting invited back.

Dr Rad 43:58
The next question I'm about to ask you seems like a really stupid question, given what you've just said. I mean, obviously, when people are writing about these sorts of periods, they have to come up with some numbers sometimes to get an idea of, you know, the scale of the battles and all of that kind of stuff. And given everything you've just said, that seems nigh on impossible. But can you give us any idea about the size of the army? Like how big do you think it would have been in the early republic? How big is it in, you know, where we get to the more of the reliable periods like later on in the middle Republic? And even maybe, how on earth do you get to this? This is just so terrible,

Dr Bret Devereaux 44:40
right? And so for the early republic, like any answer has to lead with, we don't know. You know, as noted, we only get census figures that I think are remotely reliable in 465. And even then, I think a lot of scholars would not trust anything before the 300 census wise, but with it, you know, if the Romans do enforce 65 have a citizen body of like 100,000 adult males, well, not all of those are going to be some of those are going to be old people. So, you know, that's a pretty limited manpower pool, you're not calling all those guys out all at once. Or if you are, then you can't keep them out. Because they somebody needs to form. And so I mean, that implies a Roman army that is radically smaller, I would be shocked if the Roman army of the four hundreds could feel more than five or 10,000 men at a time. It is really striking that when our sources start talking about the Legion, it sure seems like there must have been a point where there was just one legion and the etymology of the Legion, literally the people picked out sure sounds like there's just one of them. And then later, they have multiples. And the Legion standard size later is around 5000. And the Romans stick to that standard size throughout their whole history. And so one wonders if like the early Republican Army was a legion. Like, here's like, 5000. Guys, this is about what we have. Now, of course, that suggests something a lot more regular than than we should probably imagine. But maybe that kind of scale. But the broader answer is we don't know. And so much of this military activity must have been much smaller scale cattle rating and and pillage. It

Dr Rad 46:17
does sound like that. There's a lot of mention of they raided us we raided them, they stole some cows.

Dr Bret Devereaux 46:23
Right? Well, and there's a lot of there's a lot of battles where it's like there was a battle, and the Romans were utterly cut to pieces. And then next year, it's like nothing happened. Yeah, like, well, that couldn't have been that big.

Dr Rad 46:34
Yeah, that's what we find. We find these dramatic statements like the Volscians were wiped from the face of the earth. And then it's like, and the next year, the Volscians are fielding an army. Right?

Dr Bret Devereaux 46:44
And you're wondering if what your sources are looking at is like, there was a fight between maybe a few 100 Volscians and few 100 Romans and the Romans utterly crushed those guys. But that this is just one episode in a larger conflict. And then Livy comes to this description. And all Livy has is some sources, we met the Volscians. And we killed all of them. Yeah. And so Livy is imagining huge army, he's imagining like second Punic War 80,000 Man armies wiping each other out. And it has not occurred to him that like that cannot be the case. As we move into the three hundreds, the Roman citizen body is getting bigger, in part because Roman territory is expanding. And as noted, we're imagining they're reaching a lot further down into into the sort of manpower pool. We might by this point beginning to something like the system we're eventually going to have where each console normally raises two legions. I mean, conveniently 367 is when we're finally gonna get to the point where we get to consoles every year with any regularity mean like God only knows how the army when you had military tribunes with consular powers how that was even structured, like we don't know live, he doesn't know. Chaos, I say, yeah. But, but you might have something like that if each consul has two legions that would imply maybe about 20,000 troops. The Romans in the early three hundreds, the Roman alliance system doesn't really exist yet. So the enormous resource advantages that it provides it probably not kicked in. The Romans sort of have control over relation. But the Latins are still at this early point understood as like quasi independent allies, they fight under their own armies and have their own leaders, that's going to change in the 340s and the 330s. The Romans gonna have another Latin war, we're not told. But the general assumption is that this is the point where the Romans shift and I believe he actually does kind of say this, that this is the point where the Romans choose to shift from their old system of alliances, which federal leagues and alliances like this were very common in Italy, to the souci system that we're gonna see them conquer the world with where all of the allies only have a bilateral treaty with Rome. They are required to supply soldiers to Rome's armies, those soldiers serve in small units under their own officers, but those are just attached straight to the Legion. And the number of Allied troops is roughly equal to the number of Roman troops in Scenario Okay, so if both consoles are out, it's not 20,000 men. It's like 40,000, man. And now you're starting to get like the beefier Roman armies as we move into the two hundreds and uses sort of armies and then sometimes the Romans double up these armies, so maybe you put both consoles in one place, you know, before you 1000 man field army. Right, that's quite sizable by ancient standards. That's about as large as Alexander the Great's army invading Persia, that sizable, and that might be the kind of thing that the Romans are throwing around in, say, the second and third Samnite wars as we get into the Punic Wars. And then of course, when we get into the Punic Wars, we watched the Romans deploy absolutely still aggroing mobilizations estimates I think the peak mobilisation for the Romans in 214. I think it is, is 185,000 men under arms in a single year. Wow. Which is and what I would just stress is, you do not want to imagine that the early republic can do something like the Romans can do something like that because they've constructed a system to draw the resources of all of Italy together. For more about this, see my book project in a year or two. Because this is what I'm, this is what I work on. You can hear me get excited. But that system is coming into being in the three hundreds, and we probably want to imagine it as an even longer process of state centralization pulling the plebeians into the army, probably Rich will be in first, poor plebeians later, through the four hundreds into the early three hundreds are motivated by increasing security pressures. And we're certainly seeing in Italy increasing security pressures, the Etruscans are cooperating more, they will eventually make one big alliance to try to contain the Romans in the third Samnite war. The Samnites are forming tribal confederacies that seem to work together, even the Greek states and my god to get Greeks to cooperate. But even the Greek states seem to be occasionally working together. And then you have the Gallic threat, which obviously, post 400 is clearly intense, occasionally large armies of golds from Northern Italy rolling and wreck everyone's afternoon. And that's going to remain a threat, right? The Romans are going to subdue Cisalpine Gaul in the 220s. And then Hannibal is going to roll over the Alps in 2 8. And unsubdue Cisalpine Gaul, and then the Romans are going to spend the next two decades re subduing Cialpine Gaul before the sort of Gallic threat kind of finally recedes, although it's going to explode back into focus at the end of the first century with the Cimbians, the Teutones. So those those tricksy goals are never gone. They're just they're just over the Alps, with their dastardly oval shields and long, long swords waiting. Your day. Just

Dr Rad 52:11
makes me long for written material from them so badly.

Dr Bret Devereaux 52:14
God, you have no idea how much I wish we knew more about their about their society. I mean, the fact that their societies only described from the outside our most sustained description is from Julius Caesar while he's genocide. And you're like, yeah, that's, that's not great. Okay. Yeah, similar frustrations about how little we know about what's happening in pre Roman Spain. But that's sort of neither here nor there. For this, I come back for the Punic Wars. And then we talk about paying for,

Dr G 52:45
I think, what you've set up with thinking about, like, you know, there's this kind of influx over time of Roman expansion, the way that Rome brings other peoples underneath it sort of ages, and then start to draw upon those resources for its own ends. This is something that is increasing in pressure over time. And I think you've touched on this already. But I'm interested in some of the sort of details, the size and composition of the Legion in the early and middle republics, if we can even talk about it in early, you're saying about 5000 is probably where it sits. And he was like,

Dr Bret Devereaux 53:25
wild guesstimate there. Mm, right. Right. I mean, it's based on almost nothing.

Dr Rad 53:31
Welcome to our podcast.

Dr G 53:34
Welcome to history, where it's like, we've just got gaps, and we're trying to figure out what to do with them. And but the Roman legion becomes hugely famous, for many reasons, particularly because of its success, I would say,

Dr Bret Devereaux 53:48
I was gonna say it does a lot of winning, it does a lot of winning. And

Dr G 53:51
people really hold on to that. And I, it turns into this whole sort of modern masculinity element as well, where people see that kind of like victory element, and they accrue that to themselves, which I think is really fascinating. But maybe a bit odd as well.

Dr Bret Devereaux 54:05
Often they accrue it to themselves in ways that would be utterly alien to the Romans. It's very, it's very striking. There

Dr G 54:15
are there are many byways that this conversation could go there right now, and I'm gonna resist those. But is there anything that we can say about the internal organisation of a legion? And when might we be able to say that at its earliest point, do you think?

Dr Bret Devereaux 54:30
Yeah, so looking back to the Servian constitution, although remember question marks about when that suggests a kind of army in in what we might say, it's like three tactical components. You have really rich guys on horses and there aren't very many of them. You have the regular elite on foot equipped as hoplites older historians assumed that they also fought like Late Archaic Greek hoplites that has come under a lot of question now. The kid does not require the fighting style, so this may not be a failing Thanks. And and Lord knows, like arguing about what a phalanx even is this early as a tar pit. And so we can just not go there.

Dr G 55:08
I was gonna say let's, let's resist that too,

Dr Bret Devereaux 55:11
which is certainly an equipment that implies that this is what we would call a shock formation these guys expect to march into Spears reach and stab you up close and personal. By contrast the lighter infantry of the poor guys, they certainly seem to pick up javelins really quickly. That fits with what we see in artwork and archaeology across Italy. We see lots of of infantry with javelins, so you'll have a shield and a sword and maybe a spear and then one or two javelins also. And so you could imagine these guys, you could put them in close combat, and they have that big shield for a reason. But probably they're also peppering each other with javelins. And so that's a lighter infantry component. And if we understand the army of say the four hundreds as they think we should, as a predominantly aristocratic element, then we should probably imagine that the guys with the Greek style stuff are the centrepiece and that the poor soldiers are a screening and supporting element, though again, how much this is guesswork? Certainly, we get no indication and livie that cavalry is ever central to the Roman way of warfare. So the really rich guys on horses never accomplish a whole lot unless they devote themselves and die gloriously so that the infantry can win.

Dr Rad 56:29
And they get to charge Yeah, and you know, unexpectedly

Dr G 56:31
makes Lucius Tarquinius' rise to power through his leadership of the cavalry somewhat questionable now,

Dr Bret Devereaux 56:38
well, but of course, the cavalry are the wealthiest in the most elite are the social upper crust. But tactically are they the most important guys? Of course, in the regnal period? Who the hell knows? Maybe But, but by the four hundreds? No, I mean, warfare in Italy really does seem to be an infantry first military system. Similar to what we see in Greece, were also the very rich in Greece right into battle sometimes, but like, nobody expects the cavalry to win battles, unless your Thessalians. As we sort of move forward, the as I noted, the first moment where we get an organisational description of the Roman army is Livy's, eight, eight, which he places in 338, though he's not saying that this organisation is created in that moment, he's just like, This is what the Army looks like in 338. So it may have looked like that for a while. The equipment that makes that army function the way it does, has been around for several decades by this point. Livy thinks the shield has been around since 406. So maybe it's been this way for a while. The traditional Yes, is that the military reform happens in the immediate aftermath of 391 tells us this, so it is a guess, put no weight on that leg. It's plausible, though. The army that Livy describes in 338 clearly does not derive from the Servian Constitution. It is a heavy infantry based force. There are three key lines in heavy infantry, they are hastatii, principes, and triarii. And we're like, ah, we know those from Polybius. The hastatii may have already lost their spears, but they clearly must have had them because they're hastitii and the hastis is a spear. The hastis is a spear. So they're they're naming spearmen. And yet, the moment they're visible to us, historically, they no longer have spears, which tells you they once did. And then there are other kinds of troops in this picture that confuse Livy's There are rorarii, he doesn't know what they are, and neither do we. And then there are the accensi. Livy's imagines the accensi, as like he's trying to fit them into like the battlefield deployment of the Army, that would probably mean something like attendance. And we generally assess that these guys are non combat. It's your butler, you brought your butler to the battlefield, this guy carries your stuff, or they're the cook or the carpenter or what have you. And we know, the later comitia centuriata, gives the accensi their own century, grouped with the musicians and the artisans, as groups that don't serve as combat soldiers in the army, but do get their own century. So they're not all slammed into the century, the very poor, suggesting that these maybe are like professional, non combat support personnel, something like this attendance.

Dr G 59:27
I love this though. You're on the battlefield, you've just hit somebody with a sword. You're like, I need a drink. Somebody

Dr Bret Devereaux 59:32
named me my friend, you're probably so I must say you're probably not doing that the cancer you're probably hanging back at the camp when you're actually fighting the battle. And in some of these battle narratives, and of course, I don't have the citation to hand for this. When the camp comes under attack, it seems like then the Kensi may fight and defend the camp. So they're not frontline guys, but maybe they're like logistics troops. Yeah, they know how to hold Livy's Battle narratives also attack us two guys that he describes as low as militates, light troops. And if those of you who know the later Roman army are like, Why aren't you just calling these guys will lead hates? That's what Polybius calls them, because the elites don't exist until 212. When Livi actually stops to tell us that this body of troops called will the tasers come into existence. The general kind of consensus of the scholarship is to imagine that the rivalry II probably are the lowest militates the light troops, probably drawn from the lowest classes in Rome that still have enough property to fight and that they probably have a similar role to the willie tastes. And then the question becomes, what exactly is the reorganisation that leads to the name change? And the answer is we don't know. irritatingly Livy does not tell us how the rorarii are equipped, which would answer a lot of questions. But he doesn't give it to us.

Dr G 1:00:55
But no wonder he's confused and he doesn't know what they're holding. So he can't come up with a way

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:01:01
to do it. didn't exist by the time his sources did. So he's like, these guys are there.

Dr Rad 1:01:09
I imagine it's their job to go RARRRR.

Dr G 1:01:15
That whole job? Yeah, to be scary. Luckily.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:01:18
There's been some arguments about the etymology of rorarii and maybe like what this word means and that, that maybe it's it's a word that kind of indicates like, essentially, like something little more than a mob, just like you've grabbed some peasants with their pitchforks and you're going at it.

Dr Rad 1:01:34
I think I just settled that debate.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:01:36
The guys that go RARRR right. And now I just want to note because I realised I haven't given this caveat. But I've spent the last five minutes talking about Livy's, eight, eight, the amount of confidence we can put on the Livy eight eight is not great, generally speaking, so. So there are layers of problems here. I've already indicated Livy doesn't understand his sources. You know, he has Polybius. He clearly has some other sources. He seems like he might be trying to harmonise sources that do not harmonise, because he's got maniples and ordines, antepilani, and he does not know how these units fit together. And it may be because they don't. The other problem with Livy's eight eight, because you know why not? Is that the text is also clearly corrupted points. This is a case where there are clear scribal errors in the text that we have, which just adds so Livi is confused. And then we don't even really have a perfect sense of what Livy's wrote. As a results. Most scholars will put Livy's eight eight and say apart from like really general information. Even this form of the Roman army is beyond salvage. Roman military history really begins with Polybius and Polybius dates his army to 216. And obviously by then we're we're really late. I think the last person I can think of who made the sort of sportsman like effort to salvage Livy, as Peter Connolly tried back in the 1980s. Lawrence Keppie, by contrast, looks at Livy's eight eight and is like no, cannot be done. And most scholars have have sort of discretion is the better part of valour. No we can't know very much about about this source. But there are a few things we can say the three lines of Roman heavy infantry exist, that speaks to a different tactical system. If you've got your Servian constitution then you probably have one body of heavy contact infantry and Greek style equipment in one line. That's you know, probably like six 8, 12 Men deep something like that. By contrast, by Livy's eight eight we have a Roman army in a triplex acies in the three Roman battle lines that we see layer later. That presumably means that the manoeuvre method of changing out one battle line for the next exists, which is attested in our later sources, that probably means that the Romans are fighting in smaller units with intervals between them, because that's how they do that interchange later. So the implication is that the Romans have, by the late three hundreds discovered the tactical system, that they will then ruin everybody else's day with and interestingly living notes. The Latins opposite the Romans for the battle is about to happen. He says fight exactly the same way with exactly the same kit. Lord knows this will be true later, the Roman allies the souci fight exactly the way the Romans do, they are tactically indistinguishable. And so this process of convergence of homogenization seems to be well underway at this point. And the archaeological evidence seems to back that up that the sort of what becomes whatever becomes the standard Roman equipment pushes out all other forms, and those forms vanish. And so that that seems to be seems to be happening there, but more broadly for organisation, I mean, it's hard to say the organisational element Of the Livy eight eight is the part that is the worst of a mess. I mean his math doesn't work he's like there's this many guys in this many guys and this many guys and that leads to this many guys hold on like Livy, I added your numbers together, and they don't give me that number.

Dr G 1:05:18
Dammit, the math doesn't work.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:05:20
And the question is, has Livy's made a math error possible? Or has a scribe made a math error because we know the text is damaged. And so you know, Lord only knows. Presumably this army is commanded by consuls. Now, if you if you read Livy's somewhat on a surface level, which I know we don't do here, you're gonna be like, Oh, the moment the Republic is formed, we have two consoles in the very first year. This is great. If you read a little bit more closely Livy's admits and our other sources note that the earliest Roman officials were not consuls but prateors. But then Livy turns around and says the praetorship is established in 367.

Dr G 1:05:58
So it does create some confusion, I will have

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:06:01
some confusion. And of course, you've also been working through already the problem that the Romans start deciding to also have years where they don't have consoles, but they have a variable number of military tribunes with consular powers. The name is almost wholly obscure. Yeah, and then dictators as well. And dictators, yes, we have dictators flying, you know, working around to. Um, so the Romans have like at least three different speeds for Chief Magistrate that they seem to pick almost at random on a year to year basis. What we know about the military tribunes is that after 367, they stopped getting consular powers. Interestingly, the standard number of them the most common number seems to be six. When we get to Polybius, we are told every Legion has six military Tribune's assigned to it. And so that's suggestive like is this, the Republic has one legion in this early point, and it is either led by a consul, or if we don't have a consul, then his power devolves onto the six military tribunes he would have had otherwise. That's how it works later. Is that how it works earlier? In any case, you later on these military tribunes, they do come in sixes though, of course, six is not a consistent number in the Livy and you have years and years with three and years with nine and like, it's usually six. And this is another case where we're confused Livy's confused the consular fausti is confused, right? The Fasti Capitolini, which proudly lists consuls in those first years when we know they must be praetors. Yeah. And so like it's one of these cases where like, we know our sources are wrong and and undermines what we can tell. And

Dr Rad 1:07:47
then the military tribunes with consular power, so often represented as being selected as an option because of internal politics. They're very rarely connected to the military stuff and your like.

You said, not some connection, perhaps some to some of the time. What

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:08:08
you wonder is a situation or these guys, just Tribunes, that is, tribal officers. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And after 367 When Rome is off, Roman officer will then becomes regularised. These tribal officers pick up that military nature. And there's also a need to distinguish them from the other tribal officers that from the interviews. Yeah. And so you start calling the military tribunes? Are they even called that this early? Or are they tribal officers? Because remember, we also had a tribal officer for the celers in the last days of the kingdom. So you can have a lot of different kinds of tribunes? And the and the answer here again, is we don't know. The The other question I always want to throw out here because we mentioned dictators, that I just want to say the other problem out is living in our sources understand the dictatorship. And thing to understand is, the Romans have the dictatorship from between 501 and 202. The Romans have, I think, 85 dictatorships, involving about 70 individuals some excitement and trying to figure out when they're the same guy or when they're not. After two between 201 and 84, the Romans appoint zero dictators, the office ceases to exist. Sulla then reinvents the dictatorship and it is a completely different bag. It is clear that it functions radically differently. Sulla has way more powers he has the ability to legislate by fiat which dictators don't seem to have earlier on. He can't be countermanded by attribute which dictators do seem even people in the first century seem to have been aware that dictators should be the tillable by attribute but Sulla is not. And so and the appointment process is completely wrong too. So Sulla recreates the dictatorship as a much more absolute, much more powerful office. And that's the dictatorship that Livy knows. Because of course, Caesar uses it again then subsequently, but it is almost unrecognisable from what we see earlier on. And so every time you see a dictator, you also have to ask, is this position anywhere near as powerful as Livy thinks it is. Because the image of the dictator he has in his head, or these late Republican figures where it's a very different institution, separated by more than a century, from what I term, the customary dictatorship, as I like there's, there's a mos maiorum dictatorship, the customary dictatorship, and then there's the Civil War, dictatorship, the sort of late Republican dictatorship, and we should think about these as separate institutions, but the Romans definitely don't. And so you have to ask, how much anachronism Are you getting out of that, too,

Dr Rad 1:11:01
I kind of love the early dictatorships and Livy, because he'll describe, you know, the amazing things that they managed to accomplish, and then he'll be like, and seven days after being appointed dictator he laid down his house, you're like, that was seven days.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:11:15
Right? Well, remember, it's a much smaller community. I know. And as it's funny, is much more tightly entwined, it seems around around the elites around a handful of elite families. So yeah, I mean, like, when there are like 30 families that matter in this society, and you're one of them, and you're given the other 29 gives you absolute power, and everybody can meet on a soccer pitch. Yeah, you can get everything done really quickly. Yeah.

Dr Rad 1:11:41
Bob, it's you for the next few weeks, and then you're done.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:11:45
And the military crisis that you have to resolve is maybe that there are like 600 Guys from that town over there that had been stealing cattle. And so you roll out and you beat them up? And then you're like, and Look what I've done, you know, right, levy again, levy imagines this as major wars, but they aren't necessarily major wars.

Dr Rad 1:12:05
I don't know if you'll get this reference. And I apologise because I'm not sure how familiar American audiences are with Blackadder. Uh, but whenever I talk, okay, good, excellent. Whenever we talk about some of these conflicts, I always imagine that scene in Blackadder are where they have the chunk of turf in the office, and they're like, this is how much territory we won today. What's the scale? 1:1

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:12:26
Yes. No, I mean, and and, I mean, it has to be because Rome is fighting these wars and winning them and losing them and what have you. But the radical Roman expansion doesn't happen until the three hundreds, right? Yeah, Rome, in 406 is not much stronger, wider, more controlling than Rome was in 509. And so like, these conflicts cannot have been very decisive, or there would be no one left.

Dr G 1:12:58
Yeah, this is one of those things where it's like, there's there's must be this bootie exchange going on, where it's like you do some writing, you pick up the stuff that you lost last year? And you're like, Yeah, we got our stuff back. And then they come and raid you. And they steal stuff. Again, you're like, Oh, no. And so this is sort of perpetual, inter neighbour warfare that is going on. So Rome is really small on the Mediterranean stage at this point, that's really clear. And there are some big players, and they are not one of them. But and I think this

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:13:26
moments, the big players are far away. Yes.

Dr G 1:13:29
Yeah. And they're not interested in them.

Dr Rad 1:13:33
Tiny area?

Dr G 1:13:35
Well, I think they they actually want to be big in their tiny area. That's what's clear, but they're not like they're constantly having issues from their literal next door, neighbours. It's not even the guys like one tribe over the hill away. It's the guy on the hill, who's looking down at me

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:13:51
is right there. Exactly. Veii is inside the urban boundaries of the city of Rome as it exists today. Yeah. And like, it's not particularly close. Yeah, Rome is the leading city of Leishan, but lation is not like the hub of Italy. So, you know, Rome is like, you know, we're like, the biggest town in like the third largest region.

Dr G 1:14:16
Wow, guys. Wow.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:14:19
Right. Like, yeah, the real action is clearly either in the Greek states clinging to the southern coast, or the Etruscans. To the north, you know, at this early point, and, and there actually had been, I should note efforts to sort of understand like the early Roman Army as a sort of imitation Etruscan army. This is certainly the lens. I mentioned, Peter Connelly's the lens Peter Connelly takes Jeremy pushes back a little bit on this, which is fair, but the Etruscan influence is clearly not nothing. And it's like well, yeah, their cities are bigger than you and they're stronger than you, like the Etruscans at this point, are telling the Greeks in the Carthaginians to piss off out of their waters pardon my language. and something the Romans are doing, and won't be doing for a while.

Dr G 1:15:04
Yeah. And I think that the idea that somehow Rome is somehow unique, even though it's sitting directly on this sort of southern tip of a curio and a trust and influence. And there's clearly inter crossovers and cultural exchange going on. And if a trust and warfare is something that is happening in a way that they're getting to win, obviously, you're going to adopt that kind of style and tactics in order to combat that.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:15:34
Yeah, it's clear, one thing that we have in in Italy is what the fancy political scientists will call convergence under conditions of interstate anarchy. When you have a whole lot of states that are all fighting in a kind of winner take all brawl. They're in a kind of arms race of militarism, where every successful military innovation is almost immediately copied by all of your neighbours. If folks want to think about more, more recent period, like think, early modern Europe, for this kind of like cockpit of fighting, where like, if that guy now has cannon, you need cannon, and you needed them yesterday, and part of what we see and we see this borne out in Livy's narrative, and I think we may be questioning the particulars, I suspect we can trust the theme is that the Romans are repeatedly put under conditions of military duress, and forced to alter significant social structures to maximise military potential. Yeah, we'll say if there was one genius of the Roman Republic, it is that the Roman ruling class seems never to have missed an opportunity to develop military power. When their neighbours have good weapons, they adopt them. If you need to see it, a little bit of power to the plebeians in order to get their guys in your army. You do that, when the Romans do begin expanding in Italy, what's really striking is most empires conquer their neighbours, and are like, I'm going to get rich by imposing tribute on you, I'm going to put taxes on you. And then I'm going to spend lavishly. And the Romans are like, actually, we're not going to do that we're going to keep our very minimal state budget, we're going to continue funding our own army through our own land tax. So like nothing empires do. Instead, what we want from you is troops, and we want them to arrive equipped, and we would like you to pay them so that you handle all of that. So what we're asking for is like a unit of military power, pre processed for us so that we can use it immediately. And as the Romans expand in Italy, they repeatedly make this decision to structure their arrangements internally and externally in ways that maximise military potential. And in the end, of course, produce the preposterous Roman war machine of the middle Republic that becomes absolutely unstoppable and the Romans bowled over the other great powers. With the exception of Carthage, it ends up looking almost effortless, like only the Carthaginians put up a halfway decent fight. You know, when it comes down to it, outside of Italy, obviously like Paris can get some credit here too. But all of the Romans just like they just drown Paris, in men and equipment, there's like we will keep losing armies until you lose interest. And we we will definitely you will definitely run out of interest before we run out of armies. And I do want to stress because iron arms and armors guide do not think about those kinds of decisions purely in terms of manpower and men. It's not just people, they're throwing out this. It is money. It is equipment, it is animals, horses and Pack Mules. It is supplies for these camps. They are mobilising economic resources on a preposterously staggering scale. But that is all the product of 100 100 decisions, most of which are invisible to us, often presented to us in like these Livy's. And just so stories about Roman virtues that we probably shouldn't trust. But I think the underlying process is clearly happening. And it's a strikingly different decision making process than many other states made. I mean, my mind always jumps to when the Athenians found themselves in possession of an empire. They taxed it and built really big temples in Athens and created social welfare programmes like jury pay. When the Romans find themselves in possession of an empire, their first question is, how can I turn this into more armies to get more empire? Which comes down, of course, I think, to the political motivations. If you're the console, you don't get a triumph for bringing in tax revenue, you get a triumph for winning battles. So your question, whatever resources you have is like, How can I turn these into winning battles? Because that is what my political system rewards and

Dr Rad 1:19:40
even has to be even certain types of battles, right, like ones that are going to be in glory. Like if like, if you're like Crassus and fighting a bunch of slaves, they're like, Oh, good. Thanks for taking care of that.

Dr G 1:19:53
triumph for that one.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:19:54
And the other thing I would note is that by all indication, Rome in Italy is not unique in this militarism race, everybody else is doing this too. And Rome's last big shattering wars before it completes his conquest of the peninsula are against giant federal entities like it the Etruscans all band together to try and stop the Romans, they get a whole bunch of Gauls and Samnites in their coalition to try and contain the Romans. And the moment the Romans are done with that all of the Greek cities pool together invite Pyrrhus of Epirus over and also make a kind of combined effort. Because the same pressures that are working on Rome are working on everybody else. Rome just happened to be the state that mastered the system. But I'm not sure if it had been an interest in state, if it had been another Latin state, if it had been a Samnite. State, I'm not actually sure the system would have looked very different. The one thing I will say is probably unique about the Romans is precisely because they sit on this meeting point of cultures with Latins and Sabines and Etruscans. They do seem to be better at handling Multicultural Alliance systems than just about anybody else. And I suspect that cultural competence comes from their geographic position. Hmm, interesting,

Dr G 1:21:10
interesting. So I think this taps in nicely to the idea that you've touched on, which is the logistics side of things. So one of the things that happens in this early Republican period that we're navigating is they they talk about the way that drawing people out into the Army is maybe a recipe for leaving the fields, which need to be tended by somebody open to becoming fallow to not being harvested properly. And the consequence down the line in the first year is that you don't get a great crop. But the consequence in the second year is that you haven't grown anything at all. And feeding an army is obviously a massive undertaking, as Rome gets bigger and bigger. But these early periods suggests that maybe this is a lesson that they're learning gradually as they go along.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:21:59
Yeah. Although, of course, we also want to be on guard against our sources. This idea of manpower shortage and of leaving the fields on tended, or at least untended by free labour is a major theme in our late authors. And so one wonders is Livy reading the civil wars into his sources and like, well, they're going to war all the time. So clearly, the fields must be empty, this must be the problem. On the other hand, if you're going to war all the time, yeah, you may be straining your labour reserves. And now an army on the march is not supplied from home. Usually in this period. The problem is what I refer to as the tyranny of the waggon equation, although the Romans aren't using waggons. For this, they're using mules, anything in the ancient or indeed, anything in the pre 1800s ad world that moves food eats food, except for sailboats. And so at some point of distance, your army you can't ship food from base to supply them, at least not without tremendous expense. You have to set up magazines and relays and it's a whole thing. And the Romans certainly aren't doing that yet. They will later. The Romans you know, again, by the middle Republic, the Romans are shipping grain across the Mediterranean to support military operations, their logistics become staggeringly sophisticated, not this early though. So instead your armies you can carry a bit of food with you, but not a lot. Who does heavy. So what you do is you pillage the farmlands, you're moving over, you take their food, we know that by the middle Republic. Again, the Roman legion is incredibly sophisticated in this regard that the Roman legion can do the entire wheat processing cycle within it. Um, the Roman soldiers, they carry threshing tools and sickles and portable mills and these are hand Mills there. They are hand mills in my hand.

Dr G 1:23:51
Yeah, it's a bit like a coffee grinder with you. Yes,

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:23:55
it's about a 50 pound stone object though you keep it on the mule. And so Roman army can turn a field of enemy grain into bread on its own. Which is a remarkable logistics advantage. And that capability is clearly central the Roman army and it had to have emerged at some point, would you have needed it to fight ve in 406? No, because you can just bring a lunch. I was gonna say rather than

Dr G 1:24:24
a day's walk away, there'll be fine

Dr Rad 1:24:27
Crunch and sip as you go.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:24:28
But clearly is Roman warfare spreads out the logistical sophistication builds. On the flip side, especially if you're trading raids back and forth with Veii over and over again. You raid their fields, they raid your fields, you're both pulling people out of the fields, and at the same time, you're both wrecking each other's farming. You can see how this would produce food shortages, and I can believe that it did it it is it is worth noting this is a really long standing argument mostly in Greek historiography. That is the story of ancient Greece not the historiography. be written in modern Greek, it is really hard to permanently damage ancient farms. But it is really easy to disrupt them for a year. And so you can absolutely see how this kind of warfare when its high intensity would become disruptive enough to become inconvenient, though, again, having doubts about Livi reading manpower shortages, when these armies may not be large enough to pull that many men, most societies can't get enough people into an army to cause leader labour shortages. The Romans certainly can by the Second Punic War, and that's shocking. But most societies can't. They're simply there, they, they're not well organised enough to recruit that hard. Well, and

Dr Rad 1:25:43
as you highlighted, again, as far as we can tell, from the references we get in source material, slavery was a thing, you know, from very early on, and so the slaves wouldn't necessarily obviously been going off to fight rather not. And so if you're leaving them behind, presumably, Daikon tend to feel?

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:26:02
Yeah, though, of course, awkward questions about how many are exactly? Generally speaking, so one, straight up before like, 225? We don't know. But But generally speaking, and here, there's a lot of scepticism, but I'm Walter Scheidel, and a few arguments kind of laid out like here's got to be what the range is. Italy is, weirdly enough, it seems in in the middle Republic, it is definitely a slave society, but it is perhaps less so than Greece, we might assume maybe about a third of people in Greece are enslaved versus maybe 10 15%, in Rome, in Italy. So you can imagine that not being enough to keep the economy running, that figure will rise dramatically as a result of Roman conquests to something like maybe even 20% 25% By the early Empire, which is probably the peak and then the figure then would begin to fall again, we think, but yes, this is definitely a slave society. And so you do have, you do have labourers who are viewed as unfit for military service. And this is a clear theme for the Romans. If in a crisis, you want to put slaves in the army, you must free them first. Which is really interesting, because you have a lot of other societies that will enrol slaves in the army with the promise of freedom at the end of the campaign. And the Romans are like, no, no, no, no, no. Before you hand, anybody a weapon, they have to be a free person. You cannot have enslaved people in the Army or the Navy, you have to free them first. And you know, that's a sort of striking Roman cultural quirk that probably fits with I mean, the Romans are also a more Manumission slave society than most they be more slaves than most, though, again, so that people don't get the wrong idea, ancient slavery saw, and I just, I don't want people to walk away with too rosy a picture of what was a very ugly institution. Oh, definitely.

Dr Rad 1:27:55
Yeah. All right. Well, this has been absolutely fascinating. I have learned so much, and I do believe you. So just when I say that, to wrap up, we thought it might be a good idea for you to tell us maybe like your top three misconceptions about the early Roman military that you'd love for people to have a more accurate view of,

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:28:20
I'm actually I'm gonna I'm going to have consuls rather than military tribunes with consular powers. Because I think there's sort of twin pitfalls for the Roman army in almost every period. And it's even more true when your evidence is weak. And to the right, the pitfall is excessive modernism, it is the assumption that the Roman army looks like modern armies, and has the values of modern armies. And you get a lot of popular facing stuff, both supposedly nonfiction, but also a lot of historical fiction that reads into like, well, the Romans were basically like Marines, right? Like they had the values of like the US military. I'm going to call it an offer Steven Pressfield. Books are awful for this. Um, he does it to the Greeks too. And it's nonsense. The man has very little grasp on ancient value systems, I'm afraid I'm sorry if you enjoy his books. So that's sort of one pitfall is assuming excessive modernity uniform equipment, that they have values like modern soldiers, as I have been arguing about lately that they view gender issues the way moderns do. And then of course, the other danger is excessive primitivism. That is that falls off on the other side is like, well, these are just kind of like disorganised warrior bands and like no, I mean, these are intelligent thinking human beings who are trying to organise armies and win battles and not die, and they are doing their best to organise that and, you know, at least by the time we get to the middle Republic, the level of sophistication here is significant and it has been developing for some time. And so you I want to resist the idea that these guys are just banging rocks together. And so I mean, I sort of see those as like the twin pitfalls. And then the question is, how do you navigate the difficult space in the middle? And the answer is, I think, to let the sources guide you as much as they can, albeit with your healthy dose of scepticism. Away always.

Dr G 1:30:23
Look, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us. Oh, thanks

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:30:28
for thanks for having me. This

Dr G 1:30:29
was great. This was a real pleasure. And yeah, it's one of these areas, which it is so full of information on the one hand, and so full of questions on the other, that it obviously has this propels a sense of curiosity about like, how do these people live their lives, how is the Roman world really working, and it becomes such an increasing part of what they do and what they ended up having leaving as a legacy. So to be able to understand it better to see where these gaps are emerging? To know what we don't know, I think is really, really, really useful. So thank you so much, again, for coming on the show. Well, and

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:31:08
I don't know, in another 10 or 15 years, when you guys get to the middle Republic, I can come back and talk about that army.

Dr G 1:31:15
Yeah, we'll be so confused by them. They'll be like, oh, man, another battle.

Dr Rad 1:31:22
Talking about like troop movements, my eyes just like glaze over.

Dr G 1:31:26
I think it's pretty clear that from where we're coming from, like our background is more like social history. And and Fiona's is reception. And so thinking about how this really intricate and really sophisticated, important element of the Roman world operates is really useful. So yeah, it's been great.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:31:47
And, and as I as I repeat over and over again, when I talk about military and when I teach military history, social history and military history are not separate, because no army can help but recreate the structures of its societies on the battlefield. Every army does it. Ours, there's all of them. So you have to understand both.

Dr Rad 1:32:09
No, that's a very good point. You made me may be more inspired to learn about military history. I am going to preorder your book

Dr G 1:32:20
Oxford University Press, please put me on your waiting list.

Dr Bret Devereaux 1:32:26
I have to get them a manuscript first. Easy peasy, right? Just a simple thing Yeah.

Dr Rad 1:32:39
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. If monthly patronage is just not your style, we also have merch, a book or you can buy us a coffee on Ko-fi. However, if your Imperial coffers do not overfloweth, one of the easiest and most important ways to help us is to tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. Why not both? Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Back in 409 BCE, the Romans had captured the fortifications of Verrugo from their Volscian foe. Unfortunately, in this episode we must discuss the bloody fall of Verrugo.

Episode 147 – The Fall of Verrugo

The Romans had seized Verrugo after Carventum was retaken by the Aequians, allies of the Volscians. Verrugo was located in Volscian territory to the south of Rome. This had seemed like a huge triumph as they had secured lots of booty along with the fort.

In 407 BCE, the garrison that had been left behind sent an urgent message for help, hidden in a small droid. The Romans took their sweet time to send reinforcements. When they arrived, a terrible scene greeted them…

Join us in this short episode on the fall of Verrugo!  

Our Players 407 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular Power

• L. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat) Cos. 413, 409, Mil. Tr. c. p. 405, 398, 397, 395, 394, 391?
• C. Valerius L. f. Volusi n. Potitus Volusus (Pat) Cos. 410, Mil. Tr. c. p. 415, 404
• N. (or Cn.) Fabius Q. f. M. n. Vibulanus (Pat) Cos. 421, Mil. Tr. c. p. 415
• C. Servilius P. f. Q. n. Ahala (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 408, 402

Our Sources

• Dr G reads the Fasti Capitolini and Diodorus Siculus 14.11.5-6, 14.3.1
• Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.57.
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN 978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID 239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Sound Credits

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Automated Transcript

This transcript has been automatically generated by Otter AI.

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. And

Dr G 0:30
I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to another episode of the Partial Historians and ancient Roman history podcasts. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad,

Dr G 1:10
and I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:13
Hey, hated Dr G, what's happening?

Dr G 1:16
Oh you know, just sitting down ready to talk about Ancient Rome in all of its glory.

Dr Rad 1:24
We are in an exciting moment, Dr. G, because we've been tracing the journey of Rome from the founding of the city and we are slowly edging our way towards the turn into a new century, which I find very exciting. I don't know why because of course, centuries are arbitrary that, hey,

Dr G 1:39
I think it is exciting. Partly because as historians, we tend to periodize things mentally. So it's like, even though it might not just be another year, it holds a certain significance, because we start to think about, well, we'll call it a different century. And maybe there'll be some different evidence coming through and maybe events will shift who knows what we'll discover.

Dr Rad 2:04
Indeed, now, if you haven't been listening to the podcast up until now, I highly recommend you go back because we've been talking a lot about the conflict of the orders, which is between these two supposes groups, the patricians and plebeians. And quite frankly, we can't read capital here.

Dr G 2:19
It's long and arduous. And let's just say the patricians are probably on the balance still on top.

Dr Rad 2:29
Indeed, and the plebeians are, on the whole, not. So Dr G. We're up to 407 this episode, but before we get into that, what happened in 408 BC? Well,

Dr G 2:43
if my recollection serves 408, was marked by a little bit of military tribunes with consular power, then that gave way to a dictator and his master of the horse.

Dr Rad 2:58
Not without some slappy fighting though.

Dr G 3:00
No, there was there was some upset folk amongst that. But nevertheless, it went ahead. And they headed down to Antium, which is south of Rome, but on the coast. And they took back what I think Rome thought was theirs, which was control of Antium. Because Antium had sort of started to get into a little bit of a situation with the Volscii and the Aequians. And although it seems like they were laughing at those guys, at in any case, there seem to be a confluence of these groups of peoples in the south towards Antium. And Rome was not having that they were like, that's gonna, that looks like collaboration. We're not into that kind of thing. Let's go down and put a stop to that right there. And they did,

Dr Rad 3:49
indeed, with remarkable ease.

Dr G 3:52
So easy that we have no details about the battle. Exactly.

Dr Rad 3:56
Which means that I think it's time for us to dive in to 407 BC.

Dr G 4:18
It's 407 BCE. What a time to be alive.

Dr Rad 4:24
It is now I did. I did give a bit of a spoiler last time, which is that we know that we've got military tribunes with consular power, which means there is a possibility for the plebeians. But once again, I did ruin it by saying that they weren't going to be any elected. So we know it's going to be all patricians. all the time.

Dr G 4:42
Patricians all the way down. So we get four of them voted in as military tribunes with consular power for 407.

Dr Rad 4:50
Indeed, now I also did let slip that they all have previous experience in this position

Dr G 4:56
they do which kind of suggests that Rome whether our animalistic sources are telling us or not seems to suggest that Rome in this period, maybe had some military qualms, and were concerned about things that were going on in the general neighbourhood. So maybe they wanted some experienced players in there. I

Dr Rad 5:16
think they had an evil plan. I think Rome was planning to take over the world and by the world I mean, some more tearing

Dr G 5:28
things next door at the very least.

Dr Rad 5:32
God dammit, I want those things next door.

Dr G 5:36
I see whatsoever on that fence. The grass is greener, and I shall have it

Dr Rad 5:40
that we mark we mark but by this point, Rome is actually the preeminent power in this area at this point in time.

Dr G 5:49
They are they seem to be consistently winning now. At least from what we've seen from the last few years. That wasn't true before. No.

Dr Rad 5:59
And like the Etruscans are They're more just there. They're not like, you know,

Dr G 6:04
oh, well, let's Look for that one too much. Wait for it, guys.

Dr Rad 6:08
Like they did they are there but they're not like menacing Rome really.

Dr G 6:13
They haven't come south for some rains for a little while. No, like, anyway, we'll see. We'll see. I'm looking forward to what happens in this year because all I have is a great passage to read out to you from Diodorus Siculus yet again. And in terms of evidence, literally the FastI Capitolini Which I've supplemented as always with Broughton, who I adore. Yeah, so our military tributes are Lucius Furius Medullinus. A Furii.

Dr Rad 6:47
Yeah. Now we have met this particular Furii before I believe we

Dr G 6:52
certainly have and very recently as well, he was previously consul in 413. And also in 409, which was not that long ago. No,

Dr Rad 7:02
and that was the big you and everyone was very upset because a plebeian being actually got somewhere. How

Dr G 7:07
How dare they? Very rude. Then we have Gaius Valerius Volusi Potitus Volusus.

Dr Rad 7:17
Another familiar name.

Dr G 7:18
Indeed. So he was previously consequent 410. Yeah. And also a military Tribune with consular power in 415. Hmm.

Dr Rad 7:28
So he swings both ways. He

Dr G 7:30
doesn't mind what you call the position as long as he gets it.

Dr Rad 7:35
Oh, yeah.

Dr G 7:38
That kind of guy. We have a guy who's praenomen is up for grabs, but only because Livy is wrong. I know.

Dr Rad 7:49
Shocking, shocking. So that's fine.

Dr G 7:54
Majority of sources for this period suggest that he's probable nomen is going to be Numerius. Okay, but Livy seems to think it might be Gnaeus.

Dr Rad 8:08
Well, I mean, isn't that just fitting in with the whole idea that he has numerous praenomens.

Dr G 8:18
I have sad news listeners. I have to retire from this podcast now. So we've got Numerius or Gnaeus Fabius Vibulanus, okay, previously consul in 421 and military tribune with consular power in 415. So an old colleague of our Volusus friends friends indeed are friends in indeed, yeah. And finally, to round out this group of four is Gaius Servilius. Ahala.

Dr Rad 8:53
Well colour me completely unsurprised.

Dr G 8:57
Yeah. This guy's back for the second year in a row. Yes.

Dr Rad 9:00
But he made quite a splash last year. So yeah, I'm not surprised. I understand that the Romans probably like him very much. Indeed. It certainly would seem that way. Yeah, I mean, Livy's explicitly says that Ahala was reelected because he was just so awesome.

Dr G 9:19
It makes sense. I mean, he done a great job being the sensible one of the military tribunes and 408 and was rewarded with his upgrade to master of the horse for being sensible. So everybody knows he's a good egg and are very reliable at this point.

Dr Rad 9:36
Well, yes, everyone patrician but sure.

Dr G 9:40
ruin the illusion.

Dr Rad 9:44
I got my elite goggles on. I'm ready.

Dr G 9:47
So that's basically all I

Dr Rad 9:50
know. This whole year. All right. Oh, good. Let's get into it. Okay, so this is going to be a little bit confusing, I think for the next we'll actually Probably the next 20 years, but maybe particularly now. So Livy tells me that this is the year in which the truce that room had with they runs out. As I as we've noted that after, you know, quite a lot of shuffling, things have been fairly quiet on the Etruscan front, you know, up until now, like it's hasn't been too bad. And they is definitely a part of that Etruscan northern people. They're not united as we know, they are, they all have their own little thing going on there. But they obviously share culture. They, however, is the one that we keep coming back to probably because it's obviously like the closest to Rome. Indeed.

Dr G 10:47
So Veii is considered one of the southernmost points of a Etrurian influence in terms of established city. Yeah. And it's like they do have a sort of remit of influence that goes further south than that to a certain extent. But this is their last sort of big settlement to the south.

Dr Rad 11:06
Yeah. Now, the reason why I say this is going to be a bit confusing is that there is there I should perhaps say, questions about the dating of this. So as you highlighted, actually, in previous episodes, the timing and other sources like diet or set we've been seeing for a few episodes, now, it doesn't really always match up with what Livy's is saying. And it does actually say that levy is potentially wrong. It seems like they've maybe tweaked the dates a little bit, because they've wanted things to happen at particular time. Oh,

Dr G 11:46
what? interference with the source material? Livy, what are you doing?

Dr Rad 11:52
I Look, it's it's probably also the fact that as we know, there's you know, like, not the best source material probably for this time period. So what's the year here or there between friends when the source material is patchy and unreliable anyway? Yeah. So is actually quite likely that the truce, potentially doesn't happen in this year.

Dr G 12:16
Like that, as in the truce doesn't run out?

Dr Rad 12:19
Yeah, yeah. Okay. It doesn't seem to quite add up. At this point in time. This is what we're dealing with. So let's just run with it. So the Romans want to, you know, find out what's going on and probably renew it, I suppose. And they want to do it in a very formal way. They want to make sure everything's correct. So they're sending out ambassadors and the fetiales strategy. Oh,

Dr G 12:43
I think that's a good idea. If you want to get something done properly, it's got to be right in the eyes of the gods.

Dr Rad 12:49
Indeed, if you could, perhaps remind us what the fetiales are.

Dr G 12:53
The sweet fetiales? Well, we haven't heard from them in a while, and haven't but I suspect that that is not because they've not been doing anything, I suspect, it's because our narrative sources have just sort of passed over them and assume that the reader understands that they're turning up to things. So these guys operate as a pair, usually. And they're very involved in making sure that if a conflict is likely to occur, that the signs are right with the gods, that Rome will be victorious. So they go out and they're looking for things. And usually, if the situation is looking a little bit dire, and it looks like war is going to happen, they'll get pretty dressed up, one of them will, where they're very formal attire, the other one will be a bit more plain, and they'll start doing eating again, sequence. Yeah, you know, a little bit of purple, a little bit of gold, you know, you gotta Look good. And they will deliberately walk towards me enemy territory. And they're both looking for signs, and they're also reciting certain things. So they're making sort of a ritual gesture, everything about the sort of the speaking component of this is really important. If you're a priest, you always wanted to have very clear and precise enunciation of words, it becomes one of the ways in which you communicate appropriately with the gods. So they'll get to the edge of Roman controlled territory, and the enemy territory and they'll recite appropriately be like, you know, this is a situation we call upon the gods, you know, bow down to Rome, etc, etc. If not, war is coming for you. And then they'll proceed into that territory and keep reciting that kind of thing at intervals until they get to the city itself. So ultimately, the ambassadors are kind of like your diplomatic mission, and they probably have gone on ahead to sort of negotiate and work out some terms, and then the fetiales turn up and that's kind of the time where negotiations should have been concluded by now. The enemy should have a good idea that they're not going to make war with Rome appropriately and would respond in kind to the press. Slowly sort of incantations that are being offered to them, if they don't wash alphabets, if the signs are good, and ruin doesn't get the response that's required, it's time sending the armed forces. I think the very worst thing anybody could do would be to kill the fetiales. If they turned up in enemy territory, that would be a huge issue.

Dr Rad 15:19
Yeah, that's like killing the Red Cross or something. Yeah.

Dr G 15:23
So we don't have a report of that. At least not yet. But I guess we'll find out soon.

Dr Rad 15:28
All right, well, I actually kind of love the way that this is all playing out. Because it's very much like the Romans are like, cool. I got to renew my car insurance, better get ahead of that. Because the Romans trotting out with their little band of people. And when they get to the frontier of I guess they're tearing their respective territories, because of course, there has been conflict between these guys in the past. And I think they know very well, where, you know, their sphere of influences are they actually run into an embassy from Veii? Oh,

Dr G 15:57
that's convenient. Again,

Dr Rad 16:00
I just love the fact that they're both like, Well,

Dr G 16:03
wait a minute. Are you coming to see me? Because I'm coming to see you. Yeah,

Dr Rad 16:07
it's been 20 years now. Yeah. So they say, Look, would you mind not going to Vegas right now, we'd really like to speak to the Roman Senate first. Oh, interesting. So the Romans agree the Senate agree to say that because apparently everybody knows that they is having some embarrassing domestic problems.

Dr G 16:31
Ooh, somebody pooedtheir pants? Well, if

Dr Rad 16:35
we've learned anything from doing this podcast up to God, we have learned that room would kick somebody when they're down. And so at least that's what they seem to think about themselves. And so they're like, there would be no honour in dealing with Veii right now, because they're having internal problems. And we respect that

Dr G 16:55
as a place that has many internal problems ourselves.

Dr Rad 17:00
Indeed, yes. And now, apparently, this is kind of backed up with what we know. Now, as you know, Dr. G, we don't have great sources from an Etruscan perspective. Like, there's some archaeology and you know, there's bits and pieces, and there's stuff that rocks, you know, that turns up in our room and sources or programmers sources, but we don't have like long narrative histories from an Etruscan point of view, which is a real shame. However, it does seem like there was potentially some internal unrest, and that this does have something to do with the fact that the Etruscans do start to peter out.

Dr G 17:41
Okay. So as far as we're aware, at this point in time, the last time that we really, or at least the last time, I really remember Veii, it was the issue with Lars Tolumnius. And he's one of the Etruscan kings, and he was his remit was included Veii. So the fact that they lost one of their key leaders, they don't, maybe they've not necessarily bounced back from that in a strong way. Look, it

Dr Rad 18:08
could be that but apparently, a trust in society does seem to have been quite classist. And this may have contributed to additional internal problems, as well as the fact that you know, that King got pretty severely killed anyway. But for now, room is like, yeah, no problems. Well, we'll chat we'll chat you know, later, no problems. So now we switch to the other people with a V that we've been talking about, Volscians, ah, the Romans, as we know, have recently conquered a place called Verrugo.

Dr G 18:45
But that that name will never not make me laugh, Verrugo.

Dr Rad 18:51
Verrugo, I go! So the garrison that they had left behind to hold Verrugo sent a message saying, Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope. Yeah. Now, there was a chance that the Romans, of course, could have managed to tough this out, make it work. But unfortunately, the relief horses that they sent just didn't arrive in time, which makes me think that the Romans when they received the urgent message, were like, Can I just finish my snack and I've only got like five minutes left in the TV show. And then I've just got to have a quick shower and change. Oh, my God, where did I put my shoes and umbrella, it looks like it's going to rain and I can't leave until I found my umbrella. But anyway, by the time the Romans show up, the Volscians, busy plundering away after having slaughtered the Roman garrison. That is not good. Yeah. Again, apart from my, my little aside, that actually the reason that caused them to be a bit slow, was to do with of course, the leadership, the military tribunes and this Senate, they had heard That, obviously they needed help, because well, they're the people that the message was addressed to. But they seem to have kind of overlooks the fact that a garrison is just a small force and therefore, they weren't going to be able to hold out, you know, indefinitely. Okay, so they just kind of were they were in a rush. Yeah, they will just go. Yeah, we'll get around to it.

Dr G 20:21
Yeah, that's a garrison there. That's what really we have a military presence. It'd be fun. Yeah. Because the Volscii have

Dr Rad 20:28
exactly like, Look how easily we defeated them just a year ago, maybe not even a year ago.

Dr G 20:33
I see. So yeah, maybe a little bit of hubris, and maybe a little bit of miscalculation, perhaps.

Dr Rad 20:40
But of course, such a horrific outcome. Could not be overlooked up today. No,

Dr G 20:47
it's embarrassing. I mean, if room wants to say face, they really do need to retake for rugo. Now,

Dr Rad 20:53
they really do. And that's going to take me into 406 BCE.

Dr G 20:58
Ooh okay. Well, before we launch into 406 vc, yes. Let me introduce you to what I think is so far, the greatest passage of Diodorus Siculus. Oh, please. So he starts a new book, that oh, it comes into this year, okay. And this frames, everything. So he kind of is like putting a nice little present around this new book. So I just want to read the opening to you, which is it, it's reasonably long, but I think it's fine. And then I'll give you a little bit of insight into like the sort of broader politics that are happening here. Okay, so over to Diodorus and I quote, All men, perhaps naturally, are disinclined to listen to obloquy keys that are uttered against them. Indeed, even those whose evil doing is in every respect, so manifest that I cannot even be denied. Nonetheless, deeply resented when they are the objects of censure, and endeavour to make a reply to the accusation. Consequently, all men should take every possible care not to commit any evil deed, and those especially who aspire to leadership, or have been favoured by some striking gift or fortune. For since the life of such men is in all things, an open book because of that distinction, it cannot conceal its own on wisdom. Let no man therefore, who has gained some kind of preeminence, cherished the hope that if he commits great crimes, he will for all time escaped notice and go uncentered. For even if during his own lifetime, he alludes the sentence of rebuke, let him expect that at a later time, Truth will find him out. Frankly, proclaiming abroad matters long hidden from mention. It is therefore a hard fate for wicked men, that at their death, they leave to posterity an undying image, so to speak, of their entire life, for even if those things that follow after death do not concern us, as certain philosophers keep chanting. Nevertheless, the life which has preceded death becomes far worse throughout all time, for the evil memory that it enjoys. Manifest examples of this may be found by those who read the detailed story contained in

Dr Rad 23:17
this book. I love that that would be quite the thing to read to, oh, I don't know, all politicians,

Dr G 23:26
I think so. I feel like there's a real resonance for the world as it stands right now. And there are many people who would have benefited from thinking about this lesson.

Dr Rad 23:35
You know, I'm gonna throw in leaders of large corporations and small ones and medium sized ones to

Dr G 23:44
in fact, anybody in a position of power will benefit from this advice,

Dr Rad 23:48
absolutely. Parents too, what the hell.

Dr G 23:52
So this is whatever is coming up in Diodorus. And it's not going to be really about Rome, I would hazard a guess because he tends to lay it nearly gives them like one sentence every couple of years, and moves on to other things. But this is a really big time for Athens in particular. So in Diodorus is narrative we're in about 404 – 403 BCE, and this means that although the Peloponnesian War is over, we're immediately thrown into the situation with the Spartan oligarchy known as the 30 tyrants. Ooh, let

Dr Rad 24:28
me have talks about this. Yeah. Which is pretty

Dr G 24:31
bad. Yeah. And that's the thing that's happening. Meanwhile, in other gossipy news, for those who are interested in a little bit of Greek history, the really famous or infamous Alcibiades ides of Athens is put to death by Pharnabazus. A satrap of King Darius in Persia. So that doesn't go well. Also, this is the year where We lose the philosopher Democritus. For those interested in nature and philosophy. He had a good innings, he got to 90, it's not so bad. And also we do get a mention of, again, I'll quote in Italy, the Roman garrison of Erruca in brackets Verrugo. He doesn't know the name of the place. A city of the Volscii was attacked by the enemy, who captured the city in slew most of the defenders.

Dr Rad 25:29
This is very true. And that it has been well correct apart from the name of the

Dr G 25:34
plane. So correct except for not knowing where it is, what it's called. But yeah, he gives one whole sentence to that situation.

Dr Rad 25:46
I love it.

Dr G 25:47
So we will say that it's a cliffhanger episode right now.

Dr Rad 25:53
Yeah, so unfortunately, I know you're dying to know how the Romans are going to deal with this situation in Verrugo. But I'm afraid you're just going to have to wait to the next episode. Because 406 is so gigantic, that if we talked about it now, you'd be here for like, the next two hours, I think.

Dr G 26:09
We certainly don't want to deprive you of that. But we're gonna give it its own two hour slot in the future.

Dr Rad 26:14
We will all right, Dr. G. Well, that means that it's time for the partial pick

Dr G 26:18
up boy. Miscellaneous ego noise here. It's the partial pick, it is the time where we rank Rome, against its own qualities, the things that it values most. So there are five categories each are possible to get 10 Golden Eagles in so that means if room is doing its very best to be its best self, it'll get 50 Golden Eagles.

Dr Rad 26:43
Look, I'm not gonna lie. I feel like we've kind of set room up for failure here. Not a lot happening. And four, seven, certainly not a lot to their advantage. And they've would I think, have had a more interesting score if we'd been able to do them together, but it's just not gonna happen. We're just gonna have to, you have to cop it on the chin.

Dr G 27:03
I think there'll be fine. They'll survive. Yeah. All right. So

Dr Rad 27:06
what's our first category Dr G?

Dr G 27:07
Our first category is military clout? Definitely. No. That is a big no. What they do is what they dilly dally, and they leave their garrison unsupported.

Dr Rad 27:21
And they all get killed.

Dr G 27:24
Even Diodorus noticed, that's how bad it is.

Dr Rad 27:28
Exactly, exactly. I feel like yeah, it being corroborated is reassuring. Okay.

Dr G 27:33
So 00 Okay, diplomacy.

Dr Rad 27:38
Okay. Now, there is something to work with here. Because the Romans actually seem to be trying quite hard to get along with they.

Dr G 27:45
Yeah, I think there is something to be said for them accepting that they will receive those ambassadors from Veii rather than just powering on with sending their own and talking at cross purposes.

Dr Rad 27:58
Yeah. And they're also imagining that they are a kind and fair people. Cute. So I Look, I'd be willing to give them an aid for that. Well, I mean, it's some diplomacy. Like we very rarely see this.

Dr G 28:10
Yeah. I mean, it's some diplomacy. It's not like they've conceded anything. They've just said, Sure. We'll listen to you.

Dr Rad 28:19
But then they were like, Look, we know you're having issues and you don't want to talk right now. So we'll give you some personal time.

Dr G 28:26
What more could one ask from a friend?

Dr Rad 28:28
Okay, I'll go for like a six. How about a six?

Dr G 28:31
I think that's far more reasonable. I can. Six. Okay. The third category is expansion. Definitely

Dr Rad 28:40
not. It looks like they're facing some serious reverses. If anything, they've slightly contracted. Oh, they definitely have. Yeah. So that would be a zero. Yep. All right.

Dr G 28:51
We're to us now. Yes, good old fashioned Roman virtue is not on display here. I don't think we get enough sort of characters coming through in our source material right now to make an assessment. So I think we have to give them nothing. Exactly. And finally the citizen score.

Dr Rad 29:11
Well, Look, they're not technically at war, but I don't feel like citizens would feel great about the whole vertigo situation. I mean, it's their countrymen that are being slain, seemingly because the Senate and the military Tribunes forgot that a garrison is not a large army.

Dr G 29:31
Wow. Oh, maybe they just thought oh, who knows?

Dr Rad 29:36
I probably more being overly confident in their room and numbness but you know,

Dr G 29:42
alright, so it's not a great time to be a citizen. But it's not the worst time there hasn't been like a forced levee. Some people have died, but not a lot of people have died because they didn't send any backups. So

Dr Rad 29:57
not yet. But Look, I'm willing to only give it like too seriously, because we just don't get enough information like it's what's to say, Yeah, I'm fine with that. Okay. That means after Dr G that the Romans have finished 407, on a grand total of eight out of 50 Golden Eagles. Oh,

Dr G 30:14
now that is, yes, this is what happens when you only Look at a single year without a lot of source material. It's

Dr Rad 30:22
true. But you know what it was worth it to hear that passage from Diodorus

Dr G 30:26
Diodorus. I I'm like he's given us a really sort of nice sort of moral outlook for what is to come. And I know, although he's not very interested in Roman history, necessarily, that it stands as good advice to all those who achieved positions of power. How do you want to be remembered for your legacy? How do you want your memory to come through in subsequent times? Those things that you think you're getting away with? Now, we'll come back to count against your memory?

Dr Rad 30:57
Unless, of course, because world leaders and corporations are failing to do as much as they need to on climate change. History ceases to exist with humans.

Dr G 31:10
Yeah, Look, let us pray and hope and take a local action wherever we can to do our best to ward off such a fate.

Dr Rad 31:20
There definitely like let's face it, climate change doesn't mean that, you know, if we fail to act enough, which we are, it doesn't mean that humans are going to be extinct like that. And therefore miss deeds will be remembered, at least for our future.

Dr G 31:36
They certainly will. And we can we can see the globe changing all the time in terms of its climate. So yeah, and

Dr Rad 31:43
the good news is we actually have all the technology and all the science that we need, what we the only thing we're really lacking is action.

Dr G 31:52
Action. Yeah, moral leadership.

Dr Rad 31:56
Indeed. Well, on that very philosophical note, Dr. G

Dr G 32:00
it has been a pleasure to chat as always.

Dr Rad 32:13
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. We always like to thank our beloved Patreon but today we would like to give a special shout out to some lovely people who bought us a coffee on cofee. Tina, Jackie and Anne Marie. Thank you so much for your caffeinated thoughts. However, if you're feeling like your currency has been devalued by an evil Emperor, then please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And that goes for our book as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode, the people of Antium start provoking the Aequians and the Volscians into war with Rome by calling them COWARDS. How else could they respond but to say, “Nobody calls me chicken!”

Episode 146 – Nobody Calls Me Chicken!

With the Antiates, Volscians and Aequians ganged up against them, the Romans decide it’s time for a dictator! Not all of the military tribunes were terribly happy with this decision. Ahala seems to have been the only magistrate who could put the state before his own ambitions.

As a reward for being such a dazzling military tribune, Ahala was chosen to serve as master of the horse, the assistant to the dictator.

Leaving his grumbling colleagues behind, Ahala and the dictator headed off to face the foe.

Tune in to hear how the Romans fare against THREE of their rivals.

Want to revisit a previous clash with Antium? Check out Episode 99 – Tusculum and Antium.

Things to Look Out For:

• Dodgy election tactics
• Whingy military tribunes with consular power
• Patricians resorting to incredibly desperate measures
• Smug tribunes of the plebs
• Dr G having a small identity crisis
• Armpit farts

A mosaic of roosters fighting. Nobody calls them chicken! Courtesy of Amphipolis on Flickr.

Our Players 408 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular Power

• C. Iulius Sp. f. Vopisci n. Iullus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 405
• P. Cornelius A. f. M. n. Cossus (Pat)
• C. Servilius P. f. Q. n. Ahala (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 407, 402.

Dictator

• P. Cornelius M. f. L. n. Rutilus Cossus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 405

Master of the Horse

• C. Servilius P. f. Q. n. Ahala (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 408, 407, 402

Our Sources

• Dr G reads the Fasti Capitolini and Diodorus Siculus 13.104.1, 13.108.2, 13.109.
• Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.56.
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN 978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID 239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Sound Credits

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of Orange Free Sounds.

Automated Transcript.

This transcript was automatically generated by Otter AI.

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. And

Dr G 0:30
I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 1:04
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of your favourite ancient Roman History podcast. The partial historians I am Dr. Rad

psych it's a new year.

I'm Dr. G

Dr Rad 1:30
Excellent. And I am Dr Rad. I am a very confused little Dr Rad.

Dr G 1:36
I was just thinking, you know, new year we'll switch it up. We'll see if anybody notices you notice straight away though.

Dr Rad 1:43
Well, you know, it's a fairly distinctive name. I've had it all my life.

Dr G 1:48
Well, well, well.

Dr Rad 1:52
Well, welcome back. Dr. G. We are indeed in a new year. It's 2024.

Dr G 1:57
At time of recording, yes,

Dr Rad 2:01
it is a time of recording. And in terms of tracing the journey of room from the founding of the city. We had a very big episode last episode where we were talking about 409 BCE.

Dr G 2:16
Yeah, not only is this like the landmark year that marks this first century of the Roman Republic, but oh, boy, was it full of plebeian action.

Dr Rad 2:28
It was indeed, I believe that after some lengthy handwringing, and some classic conflict of the orders narrative, we did finally get a plebeian into the quaestorship.

Dr G 2:42
That's madness. It's crazy. I won't stand for it.

Dr Rad 2:46
Please, well, just going to end I mean, that's all equality ever really needs, isn't it?

Dr G 2:51
It's all over guys. I don't know how the patricians are going to hold up anymore. There's not enough fast cars or enough muscle to get them through this.

Dr Rad 3:00
They certainly did Look at it as a sign that the world was about to end,

Dr G 3:04
indeed, but I don't think it has fallen apart completely. Because we're here to talk about what happens after 409.

Dr Rad 3:11
We will the privilege maintain their position of privilege? Or will they have to concede more to whoever mysterious people that will be? And actually,

Dr G 3:25
I guess we'll find out. The other thing that's running parallel to this whole situation is what appears to be an expanded conflict with the Aequians and the Volscians. So Rome is going through a bit of a military upheaval.

Dr Rad 3:39
They are indeed I mean, we've talked about these guys on and off, you know, for a while now, but it does seem to be particularly flaring up at this point in the century.

Dr G 3:51
Indeed. So with that sort of background in place, I think we might be ready to step into 408 BC.

Dr Rad 4:00
408 BCE. Now, Dr. G, I'm presuming Dionysius is still keeping his distance from you.

Dr G 4:27
That man is hiding from me in his fragments, and I don't know what is going on.

Dr Rad 4:33
Oh, Dr. G, has no narrative source material once again. I'll bet you anything. She can tell us who the magistrates are for this year.

Dr G 4:42
Yeah, Look, I mean, it's not so bad. I can tell you things like who's who? I do have the Fasti Capitolini, which is the ultimate guide to who's who as far as most of us are concerned. And I have some little snippets from Diodorus Siculus as well. So we'll get to those in due course. Okay. Okay. But we start off with a year where military tribunes with consular power appear to have been voted in. Yes. And we have three of these guys this year. Yes, we have Gaius Iulius Vopisci Iullus. A patrician. We have Publius Cornelius Cossus a patrician. Yeah. And a Gaius Servilius Ahala, a patrician.

Dr Rad 5:31
Well, Dr. G, I can't say that I'm surprised. But given the way the patricians were carrying on last time, I really thought that maybe this was going to be the year when finally we were going to slee or see a plebeian elected into this position. But now, once again, I am amazingly disappointed.

Dr G 5:53
It's too soon. The quaestorship is one thing but how dare the plebeians attempt to make a grab for anything beyond this station?

Dr Rad 6:02
That's clearly what the patricians were worried about last episode, they thought that, you know, the quaestorship was, you know, just a stepping stone and it was all going to be downhill from here, as far as they were concerned, whereas for the plebeians it seemed to be very much uphill from here.

Dr G 6:16
There does seem to be a sense in which there might be multiple issues at play, though, because usually, when the patricians become quite scared of plebeians rising in influence and power in an official capacity, they opt for the consulship as a deliberate move, to lock out plugins. So we've got this kind of understanding that's given to us through our annalistic sources. Obviously, there are some question marks there. But the consulship is still the preserve of the leads, and that if a plebeian were to get into a high position, that would include a military command, it would be as a military tribute with consular power. That's, that's one of the rationales that's been put forward for why this position developed in the first place. Yeah. And yet, on the back of 409, where we see a rise in plebeians coming into the quaestorship, we now see that 408 has military tribunes with consular power. So is it there's military issues on the horizon that Rome is concerned about, and they're going to take a risk because they haven't opted for the consulship? Here.

Dr Rad 7:24
Now, remember that last episode, that was a point of contention, and the patricians were dead against this idea, because of the reasons you have outlined, but at least I suppose the plebeians had the opportunity. Someone elected once again and yet, didn't take it. It's

Dr G 7:44
like how you had your chances, plebeians and yet fluffed it?

Dr Rad 7:49
Well, I mean, Look, this is where we have to get back to the voting system, of course, as far as we can understand it, which of course, we may not be able to, because we may not really have an accurate record of what exactly was happening in order to get elected at this point in time. But I think we've talked before about the fact that the voting system is also rigged against people who are poor. Now, plebeians aren't necessarily poor. That is, but if we're talking about there being a more nuanced class divide, as we have before, where you may have wealthy plebeians who are actually voting along with patricians because their interests actually align more with the wealthy, regardless of whether they're patrician or plebeians, and then you've got maybe a sizable group of plebeians who aren't as economically stable or whatever. Yeah, that might lead to issues in the voting system, which might have been simplified over time. That's one possible way of looking at it.

Dr G 8:53
For sure, and I think this is the sort of thing where networking and your allegiances through society become one of those things as well. The patricians have a very particular network. And I would say that the plebeians are probably trying to build those kinds of networks, but maybe aren't necessarily getting themselves across the line with the amount of influence they need for these electoral processes to work out in their favour. Oh,

Dr Rad 9:19
absolutely. And that's really I think, what this whole suppose and conflict of the orders is all about really, it's not really about whether you're patrician and plebeian in a sense, it's about the level of privilege that you have and the amount of opportunities that are open to you. Hmm,

Dr G 9:34
well, on that note, yeah, not only do we have military attributes with consular power, but I have to assume that something does happen this year. Because we also get a dictator and their companion a master of the horse. So Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus Hmm, possibly a relation of the military tribune with consular power, Publius Cornelius Cossus.

Dr Rad 10:08
Disturbingly similar,

Dr G 10:09
very similar, very similar. It comes into the dictatorship. Now, I'm assuming that you might be able to tell me the story about how and why that will come about. Oh,

Dr Rad 10:22
live, you might have told me a thing or two.

Dr G 10:25
Well, well, well. And he also brings with him one of the military tributes with constellar power, guys. Servilius Ahala, the armpit brings him across from that roll into being his master of the horse, just

Dr Rad 10:41
in case people haven't listened to that episode, which was a while ago. Now. She's not just calling this guy in here. It's not like a horrible slur. That's what made me that's

Dr G 10:52
that's definitely yeah, I'm just running with the Latin guys. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's put the armpit in power. Sure. Why not?

Dr Rad 11:01
Well, this is interesting, actually. Because I mean, if we go back in time, briefly, Dr. G, it wasn't Ahala. He was involved in a very dramatic series. I can't even remember how long ago it was, was it last year? Was it even the year before? I think I think it might have been the year before 2022, that we were talking about the Ahala that really put this family on the math? Yes,

Dr G 11:24
I think it's around about 439. BCE, or 431, somewhere in there, at least, nearly 20 years ago, by Roman standards, and maybe a couple of years ago by our own.

Dr Rad 11:37
And it kind of makes sense that this family is, you know, starting to creep back into the records a little bit because just to give everyone a very brief overview, the Ahala that we enjoyed talking about so much before, was involved in the scandal around the nacho king of Rome

Dr G 11:54
Spurius Maelius. Yes, yeah,

Dr Rad 11:57
there was this whole issue. To be honest, we couldn't really figure out what on earth was going on. But it kind of seemed like an attempt by someone who wasn't from the patrician class to curry favour, or, or he was maybe given power, and the patricians were like, oh, hell, either way, this guy ended up being essentially murdered in broad daylight. And the guy that seems to have done the murdering was Ahala. Well,

Dr G 12:23
and there's some speculation that he got his name from that moment, because he had gone into the forum with a hidden weapon under his arm.

Dr Rad 12:32
Indeed, indeed. And the upshot of that was that he had to leave room. It's interesting that he's, I mean, this isn't the same guy, obviously.

Dr G 12:43
No, but the family is clearly back. Yes, but yeah, definitely

Dr Rad 12:47
after that whole incident and the leaving of room and that sort of thing. We definitely didn't mention that name, you know, for a while, but now it's starting to creep back in a little bit.

Dr G 12:57
Yeah, they've returned and they ready to take their place in the top tier of political spots.

Dr Rad 13:03
They have spawned a generation has passed in Roman times.

Dr G 13:07
So what does happen this year? How do we get a dictator please tell me I've like I've been like tenterhooks of suspense being like, Oh, I got two names.

Dr Rad 13:18
What an excellent question. Well, let's go back to the elections for a moment, shall we? This question of military Tribune with consular power. So Livy very smugly says that although technically, in 409, the plebs won the battle to have elections for military Tribunes, rather than consuls as you outlined for the various reasons. The patricians were the real winners in the end, because of course, only patricians got elected. Ha, ha, ha. actually knew I need to make that more upper class. Chortle Chorle Chortle.

Dr G 13:50
I was gonna say, I would like you need to be holding a glass of whiskey give me Oh,

Dr Rad 13:54
I definitely am. I sparked up a Cuban. Yeah, so obviously, we have our tribunes he got elected. So the way that the way that this happened, it wasn't just what we've seen before, which is that Livy keeps telling me that, well, sure the plebeians are technically able to elect a fellow clap to this position. But why would they? I mean, how can they be persuaded to do that when there are all these amazing blue blooded candidates standing out there that dazzled by the blue blood, Dr. G, and the diamonds on the soles of their shoes? Well,

Dr G 14:29
Look, I mean, if somebody had diamonds on the soles of their shoes, I would be bamboozled.

Dr Rad 14:33
So instead, what had happened in this particular case, is that the patricians being worried obviously, because of course, they're probably in getting this position would be the actual end of the world, not just a sign that the end of the world was coming. They and I'm quoting directly here, mix some unworthy competitors with the deserving. So yeah, basically, it was like a ruse to to choose and people that clearly weren't going to appeal weren't going to get elected and sort of confuse the voters. So they didn't, they didn't just put forward rubbish candidates or like allow rubbish candidates to run. But they made sure that it was confusing enough that a puppy and would not to get elected. Okay,

Dr G 15:19
so you want to stick with the safe bet? You're like, oh, there's a lot of names in here. I'm not sure if I know these people. I'm just gonna go with the ones I recognise. I think

Dr Rad 15:30
they actually do know these people. I think they know that these people are crap. And so because I presume I mean, this is where knowing a little bit more about how elections actually work would be helpful, I guess. But I think it's by mate. Somehow the patricians and I don't really understand how they did this, but I guess they must have some control over organising the election. I guess they just made sure that all of the plebeians who were running when not great choices. Interesting.

Dr G 16:02
All right. So this would make sense. On some level, I think you're right to assume that the patricians are largely in charge of organising elections. I think this is a delegated function. How that actually looks right now, in this very early period of the Republic, I don't think we're quite sure. But it would make sense for magistrates to organise and lead that and that's certainly how it develops later on. Yes. Hmm. Interesting.

Dr Rad 16:34
The plebeians aren't fooled by this entirely. I mean, obviously, they're full enough, not for beginners. But when I say plebeians, I mean the Iciii. they reenter our story, Dr. G, excellent. Yes. Now the Icilii are a very prominent plebeian family who apparently were like the only people worthy of being named the plebeian side of things last fsra because they tend to pop up in our sauces when there is a particularly big moment or a huge development in terms of patrician plebeian relations taking place. And last episode definitely was what with you know, a plebeian becoming auaestor, and, you know, then all the conflict of the order stuff that ensued as a result of that. Yeah, they do become

Dr G 17:23
synonymous with probably in uprisings and sort of movements and shifts for power from the plebeian side.

Dr Rad 17:33
Yes, but the patricians very carefully had arranged it so that we apparently had three of the Icilii as tribunes of the plebs last episode.

Dr G 17:44
I mean, I don't know if I believe that, but okay.

Dr Rad 17:49
Yeah, I mean, this is what we're told that I mean, I like to believe it, because if we don't believe it, then who's trailing the senators or the consuls you know, trench coats and spying on them? Yeah, exactly. Which is apparently what happened. But anyway, so the Icilii are aware of what's going on. But the patricians had made sure that they couldn't be tribune to the plebs, again, in 408. And they'd also made sure that these particular men couldn't run to be military Tribune. So they've made sure that these very popular plebeian leaders weren't going to be on the ballot as its were

Dr G 18:30
interesting. Okay. So the capacity for the plebeians to be able to vote in people that they know are effective, that sort of sit within their social mileau is off the table. So not only is the the voting allocation confused, and there's some weird names in there, but the names that they would want to vote for haven't made it on?

Dr Rad 18:51
Well, yes, I mean, the Icilii, the Icilians, whatever you want to call them, they certainly strident and they're not afraid to obviously stand up for puppy and rights, etc. So I think taking them out of the running certainly is a bit of a blow because obviously, they would have pushed for something quite radical, if we're going with the storyline that we presented with, which is that faces a family trait this runs, you know, throughout all the members of their gens for generations, you know?

Dr G 19:22
Yeah, the Romans are very much into that kind of thing. Like what you pick up through your family line to find your character in many respects.

Dr Rad 19:30
Yes, so they clearly I know what's going on, but there's not much that they can do about it at this point in time. Let's segue now Dr. G. To a rumour that arrives in room External Relations. The Volscians in the Aequians have got back together and apparently stronger than ever. I mean, I feel like I say that every time

Dr G 19:54
they're back.

Dr Rad 19:56
Yeah, now it's levy very helpfully tells me that maybe This is related to the fact that we did have the scandal of Carventum that we've talked about in the past where there seems to be trading hands between the Romans and their enemies at this point in time. We don't know where it is, but it's somewhere in here. And it's going backwards and forwards like a hot potato. At the moment, the Volsican and I guess some Aequians forces have managed to get that back from Rome. So they are perhaps feeling you know, a bit smug, good about themselves strutting around, you know, or it could be that they are livid Dr. G, because they lost a place called Verrugo. Yes, either way, they've got fire under their asses.

Dr G 20:48
Yeah, so we've got this situation where we think these places are east of Rome, and sort of SE and sitting on the juncture between what is Roman territory? What is Aequians territory and what is coming up from the south the tip of Volscian territory. So this kind of contested area between the three groups is now hot potatoes. Hitting 408. Yes,

Dr Rad 21:14
definitely. Now, this is where we got another location coming into the story. The people from Look, I'm gonna say is Antiates? Antiastes?

Dr G 21:27
Are they some people from antium? Yeah,

Dr Rad 21:30
I think so. Yeah. The Antiates. The AnTIates.

Dr G 21:36
I'm just gonna say the people from Antium. I'm not gonna try that one.

Dr Rad 21:42
The anti 80s? Yeah. Anti 80s. Yeah, the anti 80s. So they send envoys to the Volscians and Aequians, which basically says this

in case you miss that very subtle explanation. They were calling them chickens. Because they were like how and embarrassment that? Okay, sure. You have Carventum back in your possession. But you did that by remaining behind the walls? Safety. Safety seriously? Where's the bravery in that? And they allow the Romans to capture Verrugo? All right,

Dr G 22:31
so So you're telling me that the Volscii and the Aequians are copying some derived version from the people of antium? Is this what's going on? Okay. All right. antium is sort of directly south of Rome on the bay? Yes, yeah. As you're heading around towards Campania. So it's got this kind of section where, if we're talking about antium, and I think we are Yeah, Rome has had this sort of conflict with the Volscii over time around control of Antium. And they had that moment where they put some settlers in there and stuff like that. But antium is a bit of a live wire, and really just sort of picks and chooses whose side it's on, depending on what's going on. And this means that the volsky is getting laughed at by people a little bit to the west, and a little bit to the south. But they're also facing a situation where they've gotten back together with the Aequians. So, you know, there's some mixed feelings here. They're feeling bolstered up and strengthened by their renewed friendship with the Aequii, but they're also feeling a little bit like antium is not respecting them the way that they should. Yes.

Dr Rad 23:41
And I think that they're concerned. I mean, as we said, there is a bit of a trend happening in Rome at this point in time after being actually kind of a little quiet on the expansion front for actually a number of decades. And is and this would make sense, because we've talked about the fact that economically, it seems to be in a bit of a tough time in that sort of middle to late century that we're in. But at this point in time, as we're getting more towards the tip into a new century, it does seem like Rome is not just you know, finding people when they have to, or dealing with kind of like territory control, it does seem like they are more interested in actual expansion adding to their territory. And that's kind of what we're seeing over time here. And that's, I think, what people in the air supposedly picking up on as well. So they're saying, how low Are you not seeing the warning signs, guys? The Romans are clearly just going to keep sending out armies and then once they've managed to secure a triumph, they'll just set up more colonies. And they're like, did you know that the Romans have got all your stuff? Did you know that they've divided it all up? Did you know that they had taken Ferentinum and just given it away to to Hernici, did you know this? Did you know this and the Volscians?

Dr G 25:04
Are you paying attention? Wake up, she

Dr Rad 25:07
Aequians Like, you know what we did know this, because live, he told us.

Dr G 25:13
I read that book. You know what, when you put

Dr Rad 25:15
it like that, and you put it all together, I'm pretty angry, we're all pretty angry. So the envoys start travelling around and enlisting young men, and people from antium, the Volscians, and the Aequians, all eventually meet up Antium and establish a camp there and then they just sit back and wait for the Romans to arrive.

Dr G 25:44
We just gotta kick out heels back when near the seaside, it's gonna be nice. It's gonna be nice.

Dr Rad 25:49
Yeah. Now, as you've highlighted, definitely antium It is a place of interest. It has been a while since we have explicitly mentioned it. If listeners want to check out some stuff on our team in the past, please go back to our episode on 459 BC. But it does kind of make sense that there would be potential conflict over this area, as you said, at this point in time, given that it seems like the Romans are making a concerted effort to once and for all, get the Volscians the Aequians out of this area and make sure that their hold on territory in this region is secure, because and it's obviously it's part of this narrative that Livy's constructing because it doesn't really make sense that the people from antium would potentially be that concerned about like, say, Verrugo, no, I think they'd probably not be concerned about Verrugo at all. Really? No, but it's obviously being constructed so that we understand why I guess these people are coming together.

Dr G 26:55
Hmm, I think I also before we move on, I'll offer a small correction on the location of antium. So it is where modern Anzio Yes, so we're talking a little bit south of Rome, but it's on the coast, not that far from modern Rome, if you're driving a car, but like a reasonable March if you're on foot. So these people historically considered to be a different linguistic group. They're not Latin speakers necessarily, though, there's bound to be some of them by now. But this whole sort of area that sort of forms or ring around Roman influence in every direction is starting to come under more pressure. That's pretty clear. Yes.

Dr Rad 27:36
Yeah. And that'll make sense because the Volscians in the Aequians are also not Latin peoples either. So yeah, well make sense. So anyway, the room is of course hear about all of this and they are abuzz with the news of what is happening the Senate decide that the fact that three peoples have came to this is clearly an emergency Do many people are against we must Yeah, we can deal with the Volscians and Aequians, but you throw Antium in there. I don't think so.

Dr G 28:07
Especially after they've already gone out of their way to conquer antium at least what they

Dr Rad 28:12
definitely have. antium is definitely meant to be there.

Dr G 28:17
Yes, I'd say Rome sees antium as part of its broader sphere of influence and the idea that antium doesn't agree is not okay,

Dr Rad 28:26
absolutely. So the Senate decide that because this is an emergency it's done for a dictator.

Dr G 28:33
Well, that results that narrative quick for me,

Dr Rad 28:36
thank you. However, it doesn't go as smoothly as the Romans might have been hoping because to the military tribune is decided they didn't like this decision

Dr G 28:50
is that the two that got left out and weren't chosen to be master

Dr Rad 28:54
has something to do with a pony. But So Julius and Cornelius okay, they decide to have a right old bitch session about the fact that they've just been elected into this premier magistracy and outs being seemingly taken away from them.

Dr G 29:13
I was gonna say it's all lemons over there for those two years.

Dr Rad 29:17
Their unhappiness was so palpable, that the leading senators complained that the military tribunes were not being very respectful of senatorial control. Rude goodness, hi, nay, oh, dear. So much so that they even turn to the tribune of the plebs, and they say, Hey, would you mind weighing in here and using some of your powers?

Dr G 29:39
I mean, this is a big moment. I'm really sad that I don't have any narrative material now for the Senate to rock up to the tribune of the plebs behind you. We don't know who those guys are. So this clearly doesn't work out very well for them. But what did the Senate think that the tribune of the plebs are going to do? I'm not sure that they necessarily care about this petty infighting amongst patrician le Well,

Dr Rad 30:00
I mean, they can in that they always like to see the patricians divided amongst themselves. In fact, they're actually ecstatic that the senators are fighting.

Dr G 30:10
I mean, it's good to see a bit of an internal collapse over there. But

Dr Rad 30:15
you're right, you're right in the sense that it doesn't seem to really be within their remit to deal with

Dr G 30:19
this. I was gonna say so this is not really something that the tribune of the plebs would necessarily deal with. I mean, they're allowed to sort of step in for plebeian matters. And obviously, they might contentiously make a situation where the patricians aren't getting along worse by siding with one or the other. Exactly.

Dr Rad 30:39
I mean, there's this like weird reference to the fact that they'd use their powers before against consuls had gotten out of hand. And I'm like, well, but in what context, like to do with uppity consuls who were causing issues for the plebeians like,

Dr G 30:57
yeah, I was gonna say, generally, it's an interference on something like the levy, or, you know, turn a turn up when the consuls are giving speeches to be disruptive. I'm not sure how they how the Senate thinks the tribunes are going to support them. It's

Dr Rad 31:12
one of those moments where like, I had a brass back through and I'm like, I don't remember what this could possibly be referring to. Unless it's like something that hasn't been mentioned, because we have talked about the fact that the tribune of the plebs aren't always actually on the side of the plebs, or at least, I should say, the dispossessed per year.

Dr G 31:35
Yes, they might be on the side of the very elite. plebeians, who in many respects are indistinguishable from the patricians. So

Dr Rad 31:44
Look, if anybody else has a clear recollection of what an earth LIvy is talking about here, please enlighten me because I couldn't figure it out. Yeah. Offer a

Dr G 31:52
comment on our website. Tweet us or send us a message on Instagram. Anyway, so

Dr Rad 32:00
apart from getting some popcorn ready, and sitting back to enjoy the show that tribute is refused to have anything to do with this situation. Because they're like, you know, what? Why should we help people that don't even think we're purpose citizens or even human beings as you made very clear last year snap? Yeah. They're like, maybe, if all the magistracies were just open to anyone, you know, like a patrician could be attributed the class, which actually we have seen. So technically, that's true. Oh, you know, a plebeian could be a consul and there wasn't any distinction, then maybe the tribunes would be I don't know, remotely interested in helping out the Senate here and making sure that the magistrates are doing what they're supposed to do and behaving. But you know what? That's fantasy land. Again, as you made very clear in 409, the patricians just do whatever they want. They don't even care about the laws. And so you know, what the tribunes are going to do whatever the hell they want to, oh, boy.

Dr G 32:58
Okay, so we've got a little bit of like chaos rules in Rome, meanwhile, on the fringes of Roman territory of influence, all of their non friends slash neighbours, banding together with some sort of dastardly plan. And

Dr Rad 33:16
so because there's apparently no help from the tribunes, although dubious, the Romans still very much caught up in the internal drama, even though they're facing a huge external issue right here. And that's what they should be focusing on, because Julius and Cornelius are still going on and on and on about how unjust it is that they couldn't just run the campaign themselves. I mean, hello, it's in the title, military tribute and with constant power, we were elected to the position. I'm in Hello, they could totally do it, put him up put him

Dr G 33:55
I think this may be indicates that even the patricians did not have confidence in the outcome of this botched election process, where they threw in a whole bunch of names. And they got a whole bunch of people coming out the other side, including and Ahala, who seems to be the only one who's making it for himself as well, sir. But nobody was expecting that family to make a comeback. And then the other two are like we come from illustrious families. Why are we getting the gig? I can only imagine the dinner table conversation between Publius Cornelius Cossus military Tribune with consular power, and he's possible cousin of some kind, Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus, who becomes the dictator and just being like, why why would you do this to me? was so close

Dr Rad 34:43
to have my name and could you? Why are you always doing this to me? I hate you. Any anyway, so speaking of Ahala this is where he enters our story. So you might have noticed that he's been very silent on these matters, even though he is also a military tribune with consular power. If

Dr G 35:01
I assume he only talks by doing armpit movements

it's just a little a little trumpet going on.

Dr Rad 35:11
Then he finally breaks his silence. And he says, Look, it's obvious what I think about this situation. Any decent, good. Roman always puts the state ahead of himself. And he was just sitting there, with his head in his hands, hoping that his colleagues would come to their senses. concede to what the Senate has decreed is the best course of action. But now, it's got to the point where the tribunes of the plebs, the plebs, Dr. G, are being asked to keep them in line, and it's obviously gone far enough. Oh, Look, I

Dr G 35:51
feel like that's a very safe and easy position for this man to take considering keys benefited from an upgrade. Shoo, shoo.

Dr Rad 36:01
So Ahala is like, Look, if it was up to me, I would just let them talk themselves out. I wake up to themselves and they're in good time. But there's a war on people. This is urgent, hence the dictator situation. And he's like, I have to put Rome first. And if the Senate thinks that a dictator is the course to take, then a dictator should be chosen that very night,

Dr G 36:28
huh? The drama.

Dr Rad 36:30
Now, of course, everyone is very impressed by this because we know that the Romans cannot help but swoon for someone who allegedly is putting the state before any personal motivations.

Dr G 36:45
Women fainting in the streets, like

Dr Rad 36:48
Oh, in the streets, I think Nefertiti in the privacy of their homes. Now, this I might just add, really ties into a theme that has been detected in this particular section of Levy, which is that of modern Rottier. Yes, just a little side note anyway, so Ahala choosers Publius Cornelius as dictator and then Cornelius says, You know what? Ahala, You're allright. And therefore, he is chosen to be master the horse because of course, he wants to make a point. The dictator is like you see, power comes to those who don't actually seek it, which again, is another thing that the Romans cannot get enough of. Yeah,

Dr G 37:33
there's nothing like the reluctant leader.

Dr Rad 37:35
Honestly, whenever anybody starts going to town on Gladiator. I'm like, You know what? I can't help but love that movie. Because it is so right. That the hero is like, what me? You want me to do this job? I couldn't possibly Yeah,

Dr G 37:53
it is embodying some really particular Roman values. Now

Dr Rad 37:58
as it turns out, this whole War and emergency situation was very anticlimactic. It was a very easy battle and it was very quickly over which

Dr G 38:06
where did they end up fighting antium I mean, this is how little little detail I have. Oh, okay, so they they head out to antium do the

Dr Rad 38:15
rally where the people from Antium and the Volscians in the Aequians were just like a now we wait.

Dr G 38:21
We're just gonna sit here and see what happens next. Oh, no, the Romans turned up. Now

Dr Rad 38:26
the Rome is obviously because they've had such an easy battle. They had lots of energy for pillaging and rampaging through Volscian territory. Not only do they manage to steamroll the enemy, but they also apparently managed to capture a fortress at Lake Fucinus.

Dr G 38:44
This is outside the ken of my knowledge.

Dr Rad 38:47
I think this this occasion will come up a bit actually, I remember it because of Agrippina the younger and Claudius having a bit of a thing here later on. We'll get to that you know 20 or 30 years it stands mentioning that only do they capture a fortress but they also apparently capture 3000 men as their prisoners of war. Yeah,

Dr G 39:07
okay impressive.

Dr Rad 39:09
Yeah. The remainder of the of the enemies just try and hide behind city walls where they can and just really leave that territory to the Romans I was like yeah, we're not gonna we're not gonna stop you

Dr G 39:20
All right, so a resounding victory for row

Dr Rad 39:22
it is now that geography is a little off again. So it doesn't 100% seem to add up if you just like looking at naps, etc. Yeah,

Dr G 39:35
I was gonna say I'm like one why the Aequians all the way over in antium for instance,

Dr Rad 39:40
because the Antiates called them chicken.

Dr G 39:42
Well, it's true. Anytime somebody calls me the chicken I immediately go over to where they are like OI.

Dr Rad 39:50
If Back to the Future has taught us nothing, it's that calling someone a chicken is the worst thing that you can do it but it doesn't entirely make sense that why, winning at Antium, the Romans would be like with capture that fort by the Fucine Lake.

Dr G 40:05
the Fucine Lake, the Lago Fucino it says that it's going to be in Abruzzo? So, which is the region that is sort of next to and south of Lazio?

Right. Right. Right.

But the trouble with that is that still seems like it's too far away from where we are. Right?

Dr Rad 40:28
Exactly. It does seem to be too far away. And given that Verrugo, and Carventum seem to be about Latium, the geography. Yeah, I would expect that like to be somewhere nearby as well. Yeah, exactly. It just doesn't entirely add up in the account that we've got here. It may be because Livy is using a different source material, or at least he's in transition with his source material, and therefore, is trying to pull various things together, or he's been following one source for some period of time, and now he's switched to another source. And therefore, the details are kind of contradicting themselves. And this is the kind of stuff that people cite when they say, That lady is not a great historian, because he's not necessarily stopping and thinking in himself. Wait a second.

Dr G 41:20
Yeah, Look, I mean, if you've only got three books to read, they're all good books. Well, I

Dr Rad 41:24
mean, for example, I think we have got to this part so far. So I'm going to mention it. There has been a point where, where Livy's is, obviously labour, the fact that the patricians are wealthy because of the land that they control and own all that kind of stuff. But in another part of his narrative, he talks about the patricians being able to like rock up with waggons, full of bronze. So you know, just a few things here. We're like, I don't know if this is all applicable to this time period. I don't know if this all makes sense. It we can't be sure, obviously, of what's going on. But yeah, they're just like little things like that, where it seems to be, you know, maybe a bit of confusion in terms of the details that he's got here. Well,

Dr G 42:05
and fair enough. I mean, he's dealing with a period that's well before his own time, the source material is bound to be quite limited. And I don't know about the process of authorship either. Like, generally speaking, we understand that writers like Livy are probably not putting pen to paper themselves. They're probably dictating to somebody who writes it down.

Dr Rad 42:29
A young woman with spectacles. Yes.

Dr G 42:33
And she's doing shorthand the whole time. But to what extent they might go back and read over the things that they dictate. Yes, exactly, exactly. I don't know, like, what are the processes like within that? So there's lots that we don't know, which might explain some of the sort of changes in details and the odd anomalies that come through that wouldn't fly with a publisher nowadays? Yes,

Dr Rad 42:57
exactly. Exactly. We can't help them to the same status, because what they're doing is inherently more difficult than typing something up. That

Dr G 43:03
is true. So are there any more events in this year from Livy's? Perspective? Okay. All right. Okay. I will, I will hold tight on my little clump of

Dr Rad 43:17
detail. So obviously, after Yeah, after all the raping and pillaging and all that kind of stuff. The Dictator heads back to Rome. I mean, he was hardly in charge. Dr. G. It was a blink of an eye really, after all this fuss, and he resigned his position as any good day dictator would do. Now, there was nothing said about what was going to happen the next year, as in, we're going to have military tribunes. Oh, we're going to have consuls it just goes straight to an election for military tributes, which is interesting, given all the concern, you know, that was, has been exhibited, historically, by the patricians over this particular type of election. Livy is wondering if maybe it's because there has been a dictator I'm not really sure if that's like, I don't know, mess with people's heads or something like that. But the patricians are certainly worried they like are all patricians on board here. Shouldn't we be worried about this? The whole tribune of the plebs thing, and this year, that seems concerning. I feel like we're not a unified force anymore guys.

Dr G 44:28
Rome is politically falling apart. So

Dr Rad 44:31
as in the election for the year that we're currently in, they make sure that the worst plebeians are chosen to run alongside some worthwhile ones, to make the people hate the plebeian candidates as a whole, and then only chose the very, very best people to run from the Senate and patrician, who live he lumps in as being like one group basically. And therefore, spoilers. We're going to have all patricians for the next year as well. out. But also people that had also served as military tributes before, which might say something about their family, you know, being on the rise. But it might also say something about this, you know, combative, aggressive expansion kind of place we seem to be in right now.

Dr G 45:19
Yeah, I think this tells us something about what is going on with Rome and her neighbours at this point in time that they've decided that they need more people who can command armies, although they did make an interesting choice this year to just subsume all of those into a dictator. Yes. Okay. So I don't have any details to do with anything to do. Sad, sad news. I have Diodorus Siculus. Great. And he gives us the names of the military treatments with consular power. And they're

Dr Rad 45:51
all correct. Well, girls, for you Deidara.

Dr G 45:56
Nice work Diodorus. Now, he places these events in around 405 to 404 BCE, which makes sense because he's chronology is running at a slightly different pace to be Roman chronology for these things are a few years out, and that's fine. But this means that we're in the last phase of the Peloponnesian War. So to put the broader situation of Rome in its Mediterranean global context, the Peloponnesian War is in its final phase, it's about to wrap up. And things are still holding up in Sicily as well, with the Carthaginians. So they've done some raising of some cities, they've jumped in there. And they're, they're still sort of milling about people in Sicily, which are mostly Greek settlers at this point in time, and like the Carthaginians, North Africa. So there's a lot of that going on. And then part of what Carthage decides to do. And this might tell us something about their reach in this period of history. They decide to embark whilst they're also having this conflict in Sicily to embark on another campaign against this Gideons which are nowhere near Sicily,

Dr Rad 47:08
I was going to say that seems random. It

Dr G 47:12
does on the face of it. But then I think about Carthage as being one of these Punic colony settlements. And so the Punic peoples in general, and the North Africans are a very seafaring group of people in this period of history. That's how they do all of their trade. They're very much interested in being all across the Mediterranean and as far as they understand it. So Scythia is going to be around Greece, keep going up, get to the top of that part of the Mediterranean, which is going to be near where we have modern Istanbul, for instance. And that kind of region to the to the north, and to the west of that is going to be ancient skills. Yes. So they embark on this sort of quest, like a war on two fronts , two Naval fronts? Why not, we're Carthaginians, we could do it. And while, that's going on. The Sicilian Greeks get together with the Libyans, another group of North Africans and the Iberians, who are the coastal people in the Spanish peninsula, and they decide to then also get involved in this Scythian conflict, to try and sail behind the Carthaginians and just create disturbances for them to ruin their supply chains and things like this. So while Rome is very near actually placed, fighting it out with their very close neighbours trying to figure out who they are and how they're going to run themselves. And it always sounds like at this point in time, Rome is on the brink of a really big collapse where it doesn't get it together in time, and will get overrun by everybody around them. The broader peoples in the Mediterranean are doing lots of big things. The Peloponnesian War is huge. What the Carthaginians are doing, if we believe Diodorus Siculus, with their multiple naval fronts is massive in terms of its undertaking. Yeah. So Rome is a really small player right now on this Mediterranean stage.

Dr Rad 49:16
It definitely is. And on that note, Dr. G, I think it might be time for the partial pick.

All right, Dr. J, tell us what is the partial picker that

Dr G 49:32
the partial pick, we are going to write Rome by its own standards spoilered I think it's going to do great. And there are five categories of which they can gain a maximum of 10 Golden Eagles. So for a total of a possible 50 Gold eagles, which would mean Rome is at the height of all of its powers. We will see how they do this time round for the year 408 BC to

Dr Rad 49:59
tell me Dr G, What's our first category?

Dr G 50:02
Well, first of all, we have military clout. How well have the Romans equip themselves in battle? I always

Dr Rad 50:09
say, like pretty well, according to this. I mean, it's certainly not like the best battle because we don't get any details. And it apparently was really easy for them. So I'm not sure I want to give them too much credit. But

Dr G 50:21
well, that might be a sign that they're great. Well, yeah, no, that's

Dr Rad 50:25
what I mean. Like, sure. I'll give them something but like, I don't want to go really any higher than like, I think a seven or an eight. Because it seems okay. Just seems too easy.

Dr G 50:35
They did also take what 3000 people captive, that's a huge number and

Dr Rad 50:39
allegedly captured a fort, although, who the hell knows?

Dr G 50:42
We don't know where it is. We're not sure

Dr Rad 50:45
we know. We know where it is. But it just doesn't seem to quite make sense. So I'm not sure if this narrative entirely adds up. All right,

Dr G 50:54
well, let's say a seven is pretty impressive. Yes. We don't get any of the dramatic details, which would make it even more impressive.

Dr Rad 51:03
I've gotta I've gotta hold it back for when we get those really impressive ones. Yeah.

Dr G 51:07
Yeah. Okay. Our second category is diplomacy. negotiation?

Dr Rad 51:12
Well, as we always say, I don't know that you have much of that going on. When you're at war,

Dr G 51:19
I don't think they asked antium to stand down. We didn't get a narrative where they sent any embassy out to be like, Guys, have you considered

Dr Rad 51:27
exactly not doing that? And internally, they're also not doing great. So I think I'm gonna give it a zero. Actually.

Dr G 51:35
I agree. Expansion. Well, okay.

Dr Rad 51:38
I mean, we have got some capturing, you know, happening here, control team, you know,

Dr G 51:44
yes. But does that count as expansion? It wasn't necessarily clear that they decided to reestablish some sort of colonial outpost in and

Dr Rad 51:56
this is the thing I feel like, I feel like the implication of the narrative is that they they've had a relationship with this place in the past. And I feel like this is really like, reestablishing that they are, in fact, in control of this area.

Dr G 52:12
Yeah. All right. Give them a one for that.

Dr Rad 52:15
Way. What about this apparent fought apparent for it?

Dr G 52:19
Where is it? You know,

Dr Rad 52:20
how big is that? Well, it's a few saying, like, I don't know how big it is.

Dr G 52:25
I mean, to feel like we should give them a two Yeah. To the fourth category is weird to us. Not really.

Dr Rad 52:33
I mean, you know, Ahala has a moment but it's more speechifying kind of moment. Sometimes. speechifying can be weird. It is but I don't feel like it's that grand a speech, you know? No.

Dr G 52:45
And it doesn't have any of those sort of classic. We're tourists kind of elements to it, of like displaying wounds and things like this and and then we've definitely got the other two military Tribune's who don't quit themselves, well, it's sort of like, they're kind of just like whinging a little bit about their situation.

Dr Rad 53:06
Even Livy's says the dictator kind of had a very easy time. He was like, Yeah, you know, he's actually probably kind of lucky, he didn't really face any major action just got to return home alive.

Dr G 53:16
You know, quietly. Nice, nice. All right. So

Dr Rad 53:20
I think also is a Zero. All right.

Dr G 53:24
And the final category is the citizen score. Look,

Dr Rad 53:27
it's not the worst we've ever seen. But again, I don't feel like it's a great time to be a citizen because there is still this conflict of the orders stuff nagging away, they're, you know, they're not get able to get any pavilions into power, not that a citizen is a plebeian. But to be honest, we've actually kind of treated it that way.

Dr G 53:50
Well, and also the way that these elections are described by Livy as unfolding with a deliberate sort of confusion in order to create a particular outcome. I think that's in a way that's a dishonest approach to the citizen body.

Dr Rad 54:08
Yeah, well, that is an identity again, they've done it twice. Yeah,

Dr G 54:13
how dare they?

Dr Rad 54:14
Yeah. And so I mean, Look, the war is not the worst, it doesn't sound like lots of Romans died, there is no fight against the levy,

Dr G 54:22
I think maybe a five then so like, on the balance, it's not well, it's it's not terrible, but it's not great. It's kind of just like the halfway house with like, you know, what this person calls to being a citizen around?

Dr Rad 54:35
sure that that's how we've given citizens scores.

Dr G 54:40
I'm allowed to change my mind.

Dr Rad 54:42
Sure. Look, I still feel like it's got to be weighted on the downside because of the election thing. Like, I don't you mean, like it's not the worst, but I feel like it's still not great. I would be more inclined to give a three How about we cut it in half and go for four years and that's why I said three All right, Dr. G, that means that we have wound up with the Romans on a grand total of 13 out of 50 possible Golden Eagles

Dr G 55:12
13 Oh, well, that's unlucky. But

Dr Rad 55:16
I think it's because our rating system is quite frankly, all over the place.

Dr G 55:22
I Look, I mean, I, it depends on how I feel on the day. I don't claim to be consistent and Rome is always changing. So

Dr Rad 55:31
it's true. All right. Well, I Look forward to seeing how this whole you know election fraud. I get that it's not that but I Look forward to seeing how this election strategy plays out and 407 BCE. Looking

Dr G 55:43
forward to it. I'll catch you soon Hi.

Dr Rad 55:54
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today we would like to say a special Salve to Arne, Sally, Desmond, Lisa and Peep, some of our recent Patreon members. Thank you so much guys for your support. However, if you've just got mugged out in the dangerous streets of ancient Rome, please, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And that goes for a book as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's here! We delve into the wonderful world of Roman names. How do we understand who’s who? How did the Romans understand who was who? We’re here to consider the complexities of Roman naming conventions.

Special Episode – Roman Naming Conventions

We look into some of the key elements of the Roman naming conventions of the Republic and the Early Imperial period. This includes the praenomen (the first name), the nomen (a reference to the clan or gens that the person came from), the cognomen (this name could have a variety of meanings!), and the agnomen (nickname).

This is by no means the extent of types of names that Romans deployed over the course of their history, but it's a good start on some of the tricky bits including why Roman loved repeating themselves.

We look at some very interesting examples included:

• Romulus
• Numa Pompilius
• Livia's dad
• Augustus
• And a certain Spartacus may also get a mention

Is that Augustus with a bunch of fancy titles? Oh yeah. This comes from a statue base in Rome.

[I]mp(eratori) Caesari / divi f(ilio) Augusto / pont(i)f(ici) maxim(o) / trib(unicia) potest(ate) XXXVII / co(n)s(uli) XIII p(atri) p(atriae) sacrum

This is sacred to Imperator Caesar Augustus, son of Divine, pontifex maximus, holding tribunician power for the 37th time, consul for the 13th time, father of fatherland.

More details on this inscription here.

Roman names and the social hierarchy

Naming conventions differed depending on who you were, the family you were born into, and what happened to you during the course of your life. Elite families had specific naming conventions, while different rules applied to enslaved people and those who were manumitted.

Got famous for all the wrong reasons? You probably had one or more unflattering nicknames.

Got famous for all the right reasons (according to Romans)? You likely had a name to recognise your superlative achievements.

Interested in our favourite Roman name so far? It's none other than Spurius Furius! There's been a few gentlemen with this name, but for a real blast from the past, check out Episode 91 – The Furious Romans.

Sources

• Brill's New Pauly entries on the Praenomen, Gens, Cognomen, Agnomen, and Personal Names: Rome
• Salway, B. 1994. ‘What’s in a Name? A Survey of Roman Onomastic Practice from c. 700 B.C. to A.D. 700’ The Journal of Roman Studies 84: 124-145.
• The longest attested Roman name is recorded on an inscription (ILS 1104). ILS stands for Inscriptiones Latin Selectae also known as CIL 14.03609
• Wilson, S. 1998. The Means of Naming : a Social and Cultural History of Personal Naming in Western Europe (UCL, London)

Sound Credits

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Automated Transcript

Edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:16
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:30
And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:54
Hello, and welcome to this very special episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:03
And I am Dr. Rad. But what does that mean Dr. G?

Dr G 1:08
What is in a name? Would a rose by any other name would smell as sweet?

Dr Rad 1:14
One of us had to go there.

Dr G 1:17
It didn't take long for this to fall down into a big heap did it? Roman names. That's what we're going to be talking about today.

Dr Rad 1:23
We are this is a special Patreon listener request. And you know what? It is about bloody time that we talk about names because God knows we trip over them all the time.

Dr G 1:37
Look, there's nothing like a Latin name to really wake up the tongue when you're trying to get all of your announced creation happening on a podcast about ancient Roman history.

Dr Rad 1:46
Yeah, I think my favorite one which always looks really daunting on the page is Tricipitinus or Tri-cip-itinus.

Dr G 1:54
Yeah, stay right away from that.

Dr Rad 1:57
So the Romans are known for having seemingly bizarre naming conventions where a lot of men are named the same thing, which makes things very confusing. And they also have seemingly very long and phonetically challenging names. So we thought it is a good idea to talk about this because it's actually there's actually so much more to it, I suppose there might first meet the eye and like an episode where we're just rattling off console names and that kind of thing. Indeed,

Dr G 2:27
and I think I'd like to start I'd like to take us right back to the beginning the very early days of Rome just to sort of set the scene a little bit back in the olden dear listeners, welcome to The Land Before Time.

Dr Rad 2:45
A tale as old as time. Okay, the scene is set.

Dr G 2:52
Rome was open fields ruled by kings

Dr Rad 2:56
Houses were built out of mud.

Dr G 3:00
It was a beautiful time, a time of peace and prosperity.

Dr Rad 3:04
I actually just realized that most of the time the houses were built out of mud.

Dr G 3:08
Yeah, it makes sense. So the Roman kings have names right? So we've got guys like Numa Pompilius, and we've got Tullus Hostilius. And these are like precursor names. This is kind of like the first type of naming convention and Rome has to move away from it pretty quickly. Because it gets bigger, its population expands and they need to differentiate in more complex ways.

Dr Rad 3:33
Yeah,

Dr G 3:34
This initial naming system. Sorry

Dr Rad 3:36
No no no, sorry. I was gonna say, yeah, cause like the most famous part obviously, of rumoured names that most people know about is the three names. That man supposedly have the tria-nomina, which belongs to elite men. But right back at the beginning, it was not tria.

Dr G 3:52
It was not no, no. Sometimes it was just one. Romulus is just Romulus-

Dr Rad 3:59
He's a bastard!

Dr G 4:02
We know nothing about him his name, definitely. Because how did you get in charge of anything?

Dr Rad 4:09
Outrageous.

Dr G 4:11
And then we've got these guys like Numa, who have two names. Numa Pompilius-

Dr Rad 4:15
Getting more complicated

Dr G 4:16
And this follows. Yeah, it does get more complicated. So this is where they use a patronymic naming approach, which is pretty common, and you see it in a lot of ancient cultures. It's a very Indo-European thing to do, where the second name lets you know, who Numa is the son of. So the patriarchy is kind of like a little bit baked in already. So Numa is his praenomen – and that's his first name. It's probably what people call him. But he was the son of a guy called Pompeius. Which is cute. So we've got this -ilius suffix, which indicates “son of”.

Dr Rad 4:51
Right, okay. And the weird thing about the Romans, I suppose, is that the praenomen, which is like his personal name, There's not really a lot of them. Yeah, at least when we look back over the evidence, you know, not compared to nowadays where we probably put a lot of emphasis on what is that first name so much so that there are people who do just have one name like Madonna, Cher. Beyonce. Just me. I know they got one of them. I know. But you know what I mean? We put so much emphasis-. Yeah.

Dr G 5:22
Where somebody more regal is always known by their two names. Taylor Swift.

Dr Rad 5:27
Ooooooo wait wait, wait, wait, wait wait wait. Are you saying that Taylor Swift is more regal than Cher Madonna and Beyonce?

Dr G 5:36
I'm not. I'm literally just like nobody ever refers to just by her first name. They always call her Taylor Swift. I don't know why.

Dr Rad 5:43
No no, that's true. It's the same as like Kim Kardashian. But I think that's because it's Alliterative.

Dr G 5:48
Mmm that does not explain Taylor Swift at all. No. Moving away from that. Yeah. So the names get more complicated as time goes on. And the praenomen. First of all, it expands out a lot. We get heaps of praenomens in the early period of Rome's, sort of naming convention period, the early republic, yeah. And then it sends to really narrow back in again, by the time we get to the late Republic, definitely. So this tells us something about how the significance of names changes over time, and also the potential for that name to be distinguishing changes over time as well.

Dr Rad 6:24
Well, definitely, because I think that if we look at around the first century AD, whilst we have uncovered quite a few of these praenomen there's really only between sort of 15 and 30 that are probably used with any sort of regularity. By the time you get to like the late Republic.

Dr G 6:44
Yeah, if you're not a Gaius, and you're not a Marcus, who even are you?

Dr Rad 6:47
I know. A Publius? Don't me laugh!

Dr G 6:50
No gross, the whole name is a joke. So this trinomina is the combination of the praenomen (the first name), the nomen (which is the gens name, the clan that the person comes from) And there's the cognomen, which could be any kind of additional name, really. So it could be a personal name, it could be a nickname, or it could be a branch of your gens. So the family – the specific family within your gens.

Dr Rad 7:23
yeah. And it kind of makes sense that they ended up adding on a cognomen because of course, as you get more and more people, it helps to set them apart more, it distinguishes them more, and it tells you obviously more about where they're from potentially or something about them or their family. That's kind of the whole purpose of these names. Right.

Dr G 7:42
Exactly. And so you might have somebody who is known as Publius Cornelius Scipio, for instance. Publius is his first name, you know, it's a bit of a diamond a dozen. He comes from the Cornelius gens. So that's his nomen. And Scipio is the family branch within the Cornelii And that might be his three names. Now, unfortunately, that branch of the family ends up being massive. So you've got Publius Cornelius Scipio, a number of times and Roman historians get confused. But that's kind of the gist of it. You've got those three names. Now that guy is probably somebody who's coming up in the middle Republic, one of the most famous of the Cornelius Scipione's is Africanus.

Dr Rad 8:31
I was gonna say, I was waiting for it.

Dr G 8:34
He's coming, he's coming.

Dr Rad 8:36
It's gonna take a lot to take me away from you.

Dr G 8:41
So Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus has got four names. Wowzers.

Dr Rad 8:48
Well, you guess the thing you can just keep adding, if you really need you can

Dr G 8:51
Yeah, well, he doesn't necessarily add this one himself. So that last one Africanus known as an agnomen, which is an honorific name that is given to you by other people for something great that you do.

Dr Rad 9:06
That is pretty cool. I must admit of all the Roman naming conventions. I kind of wish that we still practice that.

Dr G 9:14
So like our key example from I think the early republic, who we did many episodes on, is Gnaeus or Gaius Marcius (nomen) Coriolanus (agnomen) Because he gets that name after the siege of Corioli, the Volscian and city.

Dr Rad 9:33
Yeah, absolutely. And it's probably interesting to note, I suppose that when these names are developing, they start off having certain meanings as well. Like the praenomens that we are dealing with, particularly in the early republic, they do have interesting names, which I actually had not thought about up until this. So so Marcus, one of our most common ones, probably originated because someone was a born in March so it used it you might have signified something about like when you were born. And and, for example, Manlius. It might have signified that you were born in the morning for manes.

Dr G 10:10
Okay, oh, that's cute. Like Septimius Yeah, born in the seventh month, or Tiberius, who is known, named after the river god. So Marcus could also be a declaration of the gods Mars.

Dr Rad 10:23
Yeah, exactly. And so originally, these praenomens also had probably meanings probably to parents, I would say. But as we move on in time, and then that would have been probably very early on as we move on in time, I don't think that they tend to pick those for those particular reasons. The only one I think that might still have some meaning later on is the habit of numbering.

Dr G 10:47
Oh, yeah, yeah. But they don't usually use those for praenomens, necessarily, although sometimes – Quintus is a good one.

Dr Rad 10:55
Yeah,

Dr G 10:56
number five,

Dr Rad 10:57
exactly.

Dr G 10:57
Decimus, number 10. And some of them also come from different sort of language extractions. So Spurius, we think comes from Etruscan language. So it comes into Latin as Spurius. But it comes from the Etruscan ‘Spura' to mean community.

Dr Rad 11:17
Very nice. Now, when it comes to the nomen, Dr. G, this is probably the most important in terms of indicating your gens, right? When it comes to political life in the republic that we're going to be focusing on today, just because it gets too complicated. As time goes on, to carry on. Names continue to evolve the, um, the Republic, but we're starting with the origins.

Dr G 11:41
So yeah, the origin story of the gens. So as Rome's history is starting to flourish. So we've been looking very much at the early republic, in our founding of the city series, the gens becomes their sort of primary mechanism for establishing your place in Rome's hierarchy. Yeah. So even if Dionysius of Halicarnassus and Livy, and our other sources are sort of imposing this struggle of the orders a little bit on to this period of time, it's probably still the case that your gens – the family from which you derive- is a super important element of who you are, what your politics is going to be, and how you participate in ritual practice as well.

Dr Rad 12:34
Definitely.

Dr G 12:36
So this is part of the broader Roman understanding of patriarchy as well. So the gens name comes from the original ancestor, if you like, of the family. So it doesn't take long for that sort of ancestral connection to be enough generations back that people don't know who that person is anymore. It's just a name. And also, that it's a little bit murky enough, that if you're really in straights, about what to do with your life, you might start to lie about where your family came from,

Dr Rad 13:12
Scandalous!

Dr G 13:14
It is illegal, the Romans don't like that. They try to crack down on that. So if you've just pop up out of nowhere with a new name, that's going to be very suspicious. But for people who are trying to figure out where they fit in the mix of things, if they've got a few obscure family connections, and they're not really quite sure, there is a reasonable and plausible moment where you might be like, oh, yeah, no, I'm a Cornelii, obviously, just makes so much sense.

Dr Rad 13:43
Yeah, and it's so interesting, because again, if you go back to the origins, again, some of these probably had obviously, particular meaning something to do with that particular family. And it could be something to do with where they are geographically located. Once upon a time as you say, it might be to do with an ancestor. It might even be to do with some sort of like agricultural thing, you know, if you think about like the origins of Roman society, so for example, we often talk about the fabulous Fabians. Fabius might come from ‘faba' as in bean, which you might have with a nice chianti.

Dr G 14:22
A delicious Fabian, that's what I like to hear

Dr Rad 14:26
It sounds a lot less fabulous. When you go back to the origins of it

It does explain why they're so full of fiber.

Oh, yes. And, and as we said, with the praenomens as well, originally, there were fewer of these gens and then gradually it expands until there are lots like when we're talking about the early republic, our listeners, I'm sure have noticed that we keep going back to very similar gens. Most of the time when we're talking about people who are holding high office and that sort of thing is a bit of a repeat repeat thing going on with some of those families.

Dr G 15:01
Yeah, we have quite a few very well known genses (gentes) in the early republic. So the Aemilii, the Claudii, the Cornelii, the Fabii, the Manlii and the Valerii are real standout families that continue to dominate the politics of the early republic if our following the records that we've got of consuls, and military tribunes and so forth.

Dr Rad 15:29
Absolutely. Now we move on to cognomens, Dr G. So we've definitely been coming across a lot of those, it's pretty common by the time you get to our period, which is still early republic, but the period we're looking at the moment is, we're very close to getting to 400 BCE, right. And pretty much everyone that we talk about who holds an important office tends to have a cognomen and not every single person we talk about has one, but a lot of them do. But when we get into more reliable times where the records are a bit, you know, bit better sort of late, mid to late Republic, I'd say. It becomes way more common, as you said, for people to have two of these subsequent names. So it might two cognomen. Or you might want to say it's a cognomen and an agnomen. And so you see, like, as time goes on, again, like the names just get more complicated, and people add more on to them.

Dr G 16:21
They certainly do. So this idea of for cognomen, this additional name, and it extends out to even being able to have not just one, but eventually also to so you can just kind of keep building if you like as you need to, to let people know what your family lineage is. So some of the ones that are going to crop up in the middle Republic when we get to it a names like Dolabella, Scipio, Lentulus, Sulla, Cinna, all of these names are probably in isolation familiar to you, if you're interested in Roman history anyway, because some of these names go on to be quite famous. Yeah, but they're actually all of those are examples of a cognomen. That is part of a branch of a bigger gens.

Dr Rad 17:12
Yes, yes.

Dr G 17:13
So all of those names are examples of cognomen that go with the Cornelii gens. It's always going to be Cornelius Dolabella, Cornelius Scipio, Cornelius Lentulus, Cornelius Sulla, Cornelius Cinna. These guys, they're everywhere.

Dr Rad 17:32
And is that one of the interesting things particularly again, in the earlier periods is that these cognomens, they might have originated obviously some sort of like nickname or something to distinguish that branch of the family. And they're not always the most positive names that you could come up with. So for example, we've got Cincinnatus who someone we've talked about before, which we think means “curly hair”. Now that's probably not really like I suppose a negative thing, although, as someone who has curly hair, I struggle with that on a daily basis. So I guess I interpreted that way. But also-

Dr G 18:06
It's a super cute name, though, like, think of the reputation that that family has throughout the history of robes, early Republic, and everybody's just like, why don't we go and talk to Curly Hair over there?

Dr Rad 18:16
That's true. And then of course, Brutus is a name that we've definitely mentioned before, and even when we were talking about it, we explained that it meant “stupid”, which is not the best nickname.

Dr G 18:30
Definitely not as nice as a cognomen, like Faustus which you might think has negative connotations, but that's much later and not ancient it. It has really positive connotations in the ancient world Faustus means “fortunate, auspicious, lucky”. So you have a little baby and you're like, it's just so Faustus!

Dr Rad 18:50
I'm going to throw in another couple that you that are a bit more negative Galba. Galba who we will get to eventually. I mean, actually, we have talked about it. And but that was, you know, back in the day. Galba means “fat belly”.

Dr G 19:05
Hmmm. Does it sound appropriate? I think it does.

Dr Rad 19:10
Crassus also means “fat”. Another guy we've talked about is Scaevola. And that obviously has to do with the hand incident. Okay, where he like punches his right hand into the fire and then he's like known as “the left hander”. And then of course, we've got my personal favorite, which we haven't come to yet, because it sounds rude but it's not really Cunctator: “Ditherer”.

Dr G 19:35
Which means?

Dr Rad 19:36
Ditherer.

Dr G 19:39
We've also got things like Cato “smart guy”. And Blaesus, “the stammer” and things that are a little bit more descriptive and maybe a bit more boring things like Pictor “the artist” and Sura – I think you're gonna like this one – “the man with the striking calf”.

Dr Rad 20:01
Whaat? That from two syllables?

Dr G 20:08
Look, that's all you need when you've got, like, he walks past me like, “Mmm that's a Sura right there.”

Dr Rad 20:16
Hilarious. Now of course, these nicknames could also be attached because of, again, some sort of like geographic connection with the family. It could also spring up because of some sort of office or something that you hold. Okay, so for example, you might get the name Flaminia. Just because you held the position of say Flamen Dialis, which is like a priesthood.

Dr G 20:41
Yeah, yeah. And you might be called Censorinus because you were twice censor.

Dr Rad 20:49
Yes. And Cicero's friend who most people would know, just as Atticus. He got that name because he really loved Greek culture and spent quite a bit of time in Athens.

Dr G 21:01
Ah, the old Attica. Well, this also helps us with names like the king. Lucius Tarquinius. Priscus, who is letting us know that he has an origin story. He's got this connection with Tarquinii. Yeah, this other city elsewhere. Although, if we're sticking with Priscus for a moment, he's a little bit unusual, because that Priscus name is something that's given to him much later than when he's alive. Priscus means kind of ancient, renowned, and doesn't seem like the sort of name that you would add to anybody who was still alive.

Dr Rad 21:42
Maybe he was an old soul. So I guess-

Dr G 21:48
And then ee've got like, you know, cute things like Rufus

Dr Rad 21:52
Red hair.

Dr G 21:53
Red. Yeah. Cossus Wait for it. I like Cossus because we deal with Cossus – Cossus people a lot. The consul of 413 BCE was Aulus or Marcus Cornelius Cossus.

Dr Rad 22:09
Right.

Dr G 22:10
And Cossus means “the lavae that lives under the bark of trees”.

Dr Rad 22:14
Oh my god. Okay, I honestly like, first of all, I'm not even gonna ask how that one word leads to all of that. But how on earth would that come to be associated with a person? What is he like? A tree hugger? Like what does that mean?

Dr G 22:31
I think he's a little bit wormy.

Dr Rad 22:33
Yeah, that's weird, man.

I don't know.

Wild.

Dr G 22:36
Maybe there is something something slimy about him.

Dr Rad 22:41
So, when we're talking about these names, I think it seems like the Romans are very unimaginative. And that these names are super unhelpful. But when you start to unpack them, you actually realize that no, no, they're trying to give a really clear idea of where someone's from, what is their family name, that's going to give you a bit of an indication eventually about where they belong in this society, their rank, and that sort of thing. And certain families will become obviously better known than others. And that really matters in a place like Rome. And the names continue to evolve. And they get more complicated as the society does, they actually reveal a lot. It's not that it's just that we didn't have the full map, I suppose. We're trying to figure it all out from it from a distance.

Dr G 23:27
Yeah, that's true. And so to take things right back to the way that the kings were sometimes using that patronymic element to that nature, that reference back to the father does creep back in in a different form, as Roman names get a little bit more complicated, right? So as families grow, so your clan group grows, grows enough that you need to have these branches of the family within the gens, then you might also need to have a distinction about where in the branch you sit, for instance, and so the idea of having the filiation comes back in, so we have things like, Lucius Valerius – son of Lucius, grandson of Publius – Potitus. So this guy was a military tribute with consular power in 414 BCE.

Dr Rad 24:26
Right.

Dr G 24:26
So we've talked about this guy before. And he's letting you know, not just that he has this praenomen Lucius, that he comes from the gens, the Valerii, but he is also the first son of the father Lucius because they've got the same name. So there's a pattern to be drawn there. And his father was not the first son of the grandfather Publius. And then he has his cognomen as well Potitus. So the specific branch within and so they're really trying to narrow down. So you can precisely locate where somebody sits in the overall hierarchy have anything to do with Romans public understanding of themselves. And it's like you should be able to position him straightaway. And I suspect that in day to day life, everybody would have had a nickname.

Dr Rad 24:26
Yeah,

Dr G 24:26
That's my suspicion.

Dr Rad 24:27
Oh for sure

Dr G 24:35
Because this is the sort of thing where it's like, this is your official name for official documents. And if you have the honor of getting yourself onto an inscription somewhere, obviously, you have to use your real name because it's super important for family business. But in day to day life, I don't think people are in the street, seeing somebody across the way and being like, Lucius Valerius, son of Lucius, grandson of Publius Potitus. Like, you know, just like to get their attention. I don't think that just seems completely unreasonable. Everybody, I think would have had a nickname anyway, that they probably picked up in childhood. And that becomes their, the way of distinguishing them in day to day life.

Dr Rad 26:00
Absolutely. And I think it probably very much like in our society, it depends on your level of familiarity, as to which name you might be using to address these people. So I would imagine that you'd have to be relatively familiar with an elite Roman man to be calling him by his praenomen. And if that's what ever is, that's what his family, for example, calls in just the same way that I wouldn't necessarily go up to you and say, “Hey, Peta,” I would say, “Hey, Dr. G,” becasue we're on formal terms.

Dr G 26:31
And we shall never depart from such formality.

Dr Rad 26:34
Exactly. Exactly. We always have to use titles because I hardly know you!

You'll always be Dr Rad in my heart. We don't know each other at all. It'd be insane to use our first names with each other.

Yeah, just like when you you know, as a child, you first meet an adult or like your teacher or something, you're going to call them, you know, Miss so-and-so. You're not going to say, “Hey, Sally, trying to figure out my coloring over here. Can you get some help?”

Dr G 26:57
“Excuse me, Mr. Cornelius?”

Dr Rad 27:01
Yeah exactly. Like, I feel like it has something to do with that. Because after all, these people with lots of names, these are the elite. And as usual, these are the people that we have an enormous amount of information about, because they're the ones who are writing history. They're the ones who are making history in their own minds. So we have a lot of their names recorded. And of course, they're the ones that are generally wealthy enough to erect things like tombstones. Now, that's not to say we don't have evidence about other people are going to get to them eventually, either in this episode, or in another episode. But definitely, we have, I think, the most idea about how their names work, and they have all these complicated names, because it really matters to them, about status, you know, and family and that sort of thing. The lower down the social spectrum you go, the fewer names people tend to have in the early period of Rome.

Dr G 27:51
Indeed, indeed. And to give you a sense of how this elite tendency is operating as well. When we get into the late Republic, we start to see more and more evidence for elite family adoptions. So somebody shifting out of one very fancy family, and finding themselves legally situated in another very fancy family. And my go to example for this is Livia's dad.

Dr Rad 28:24
Oh, I thought you were gonna use Augustus. Okay.

Dr G 28:28
Forget that guy. Livia's dad, so he is born Appius Claudius Pulcher. So he's born into the Claudian gens in the Pulchri branch of the family, but when he's quite young, he is then adopted into the Livilli Drusi family. So another fancy family. Yeah. And this means that he picks up a whole bunch of new names. So he starts off with the praenomen Appius, but he becomes Marcus; starts off with the nomen Claudius, but becomes Livius; starts off with the first cognomen Pulcher and becomes Drusus. So almost completely unrecognizable. Like you said, “Who's Marcus Livius Drusus?” you'd be like, “Well, it ain't Appius Claudius Pulcher!” And you'd be mostly right about that. But the second cognomen that he's got lets us all know, where he came from, and also what has happened to him, because he picks up Claudianus as a second cognomen and this is going to happen a lot and it's going to get more complicated as people get further into the imperial period. But at this stage in the Republic, the -anus ending of a name – and shout out for people who have talked to us having noticed that anus comes up a lot. You are correct. And it's gonna keep happening – The old -anus ending is indicating that he was born into the Claudii gens. So he gets to retain his gens affiliation in his name, but that Claudiaus is indicating that he has been adopted out of the Claudii. And he is now part of the Livius. Drusi instead.

Dr Rad 30:19
Yeah, cuz the Romans take adoption very seriously in practice, like you are literally legally removed entirely from your family of birth and put into another family. And it's not like they look at you like, “oh, yeah, you're not as good as my other children.” Or “I'm not taking you as seriously as my other children.” They take it very seriously. Like, it's a done deal. Like you. You are one of them.

Dr G 30:44
When you're adopted into a Roman family, you become part of that family? No question.

Dr Rad 30:49
Yes.

Dr G 30:50
Yeah, you are just as important as the other children that they have you are you have a legal standing that is comparable to what they have. And from that point onwards, that is where your allegiance lies. So that's really interesting, I think, because the family is the bedrock of everything in Roman politics.

Dr Rad 31:07
It is. And I feel like it has to do with obviously, you're taking on that name. And therefore you are part of that, you know, political legacy, in terms of that's the name that we're putting out there. It's important, it's associated with that family, but I feel like it also has to do with property. You know, because now that you're Yeah, yeah, now that you're legally a part of that family, you are going to be legally entitled to whatever it is that they have. And so that means that they kind of have to take you just as seriously because you're gonna get just as much as the other male people and the female, you know, so women can inherit property and Rome after a certain period. So you're going to be inheriting most likely so that that part is important, too.

Dr G 31:52
Yeah. So this is telling us something really significant about the way that the legacy system in Roman families is operating as well. So part of what happens for elite families is that they are trying to figure out ways to keep the property that they own within their family lines. So if you are in a situation where you have daughters, elite women are able to inherit under certain circumstances. And certainly progressively over time, it becomes more common that they can, but there is a period in which it's still quite challenging for that to be for sure, legally, okay. And one of the ways you can get around that is to adopt male children into the family to secure that stuff.

Dr Rad 32:38
Okay, so I'm going to use the Augustus example, because it's just an easy example for people to understand just to sum this all up. So very similar to the one that you highlighted, but maybe with some more familiar names for our audience. So Augustus is a special name, that this douchebag who ends up becoming princeps gets-

Dr G 32:59
Excuse me?

Dr Rad 33:01
Just making sure you're still listening!

Dr G 33:04
So, so Augustus is an agnomen, one of these honorific names that's given to him in 27 BCE. Fancy times!

Dr Rad 33:13
Absolutely. So he starts life as Gaius Octavius Thurinus, which I don't think most people would recognize as having any resemblance to the names that we mostly use to refer to him.

Dr G 33:27
Are you he's telling me he comes from a backwater equestrian family from the middle of nowhere?

Dr Rad 33:33
That might be what I'm trying to indicate by his name. Yes. So he gets adopted by Julius Caesar in his will, which is unusual, I'm just gonna highlight by the way. So he becomes kayas, Julius Kaiser, Caesar, whatever, however you want to say it. So obviously taking on the name of the man who adopted him, Julius Caesar. And then he has Octavianus at the end.

Dr G 34:01
Yes, which he hates.

Dr Rad 34:04
Yeah, which is why you'll read books, which sometimes refer to him as Octavian. And as a way of sort of distinguishing the different periods of his life when he's Octavius. It's before he's been adopted by Julius Caesar, who is his great uncle. When he's Octavian. It indicates that he has been adopted by Caesar, but he hasn't got the special honorific name of Augustus yet. And you might also find books that refer to him as like the young Caesar or something like that.

Dr G 34:35
Yeah, because Augustus didn't want to be called Octavianus. He spent a lot of time tramping around being like, “No, I'm Gaius Julius Caesar, son of Gaius Julius Caesar.” And then he gets Julius Caesar deified and he's like, my name is “Gaius Julius Caesar, son of the deified Gaius Julius Caesar.” Somebody will be like, “Well, Octavianus,” and he's like, “Nooooo!”

Dr Rad 35:06
I feel like it sounds very much like he was like Marsha Marsha, Marsha. But yeah, he's a good example because it kind of shows the process of him taking on the name and that being probably one of the most important things that Julius Caesar gives him – Dangerous, but important.

Dr G 35:24
It is definitely definitely the most important thing, Julius Caesar gives him because without that bit of paper, none of the stuff that he did would have been possible just there was just no way nobody would take him seriously. So the fact that when it gets anglicized they lose the honours ending of Octavianus-

Dr Rad 35:47
They've lost his anus? Aww no!

Dr G 35:52
I just hate it when that happens! why did they lose the anus?

Dr Rad 35:56
It's hilarious because I think of nothing but arseholes when I think of him.

Dr G 36:02
You're wounding me deeply, Dr Rad.

Dr Rad 36:04
I'm sorry. I'll stop, I'll stop. I'm very serious now.

Dr G 36:08
So his name is Octavianus. And it gets anglicized into Octavian. So that sort of creates even maybe more confusion for modern readers who are looking at things being like, is it Octavius. Is it Octavian? Is it Octavianus? Is it Augustus? What's going on?

Dr Rad 36:24
Yeah, exactly. And it's all to do with, as you say, those last few letters of the name, the -ius, the -ianus, Or the -anus and then, of course, the -us.

Dr G 36:36
Yeah, I mean, the -us is everywhere. So that's just kind of how it goes. But yeah, the -anus, the -ilius, like these little nuances in those suffix – those endings to those words – is really important for what's going on with the name. So when they drop off in, you know, modern translations and things like that, you know, it can lead to confusion.

Dr Rad 36:59
And when you have law at the end, that often is like a cute little nickname type of thing. Like if you think about Caligula, that's meant to be “little boots”. Like, it's like a little diminutive, where it's meant to be like, “Oh my God, he's so adorable. He's a toddler and a little military uniform. And Look, he's got little boots on!” Because the boots that the soldiers wore were caligae. And even for women as well. You might have someone who's called for example, Livilla, which is like “little Livia”, you know, like, she's so cute. She's like, the smaller version.

Dr G 37:36
Yeah, and although this just makes me think of Ahala, which is “armpit”. And I was like,does that mean cute armpit now?

Dr Rad 37:45
I don't know that Latin enough to be definitive about that. But you do tend to see when you see those sorts of names, then it can be like a little diminutive or something like that. But I don't know that there's a hard and fast rule about that.

Dr G 37:59
And I think you've opened up the the gateway into thinking about women's names.

Dr Rad 38:04
Thank you, I'd love to talk about women's names.

Dr G 38:08
Because women do get a pretty raw deal in the Latin language when it comes to names. There's no doubt about it. If you need any evidence whatsoever, that we're dealing with a highly patriarchal system, the way that they deal with women's names is a key piece of evidence.

Dr Rad 38:26
It really is. So women get basically a feminized version of the nomen. So like the gens name, that's how it starts. So to stick with the Julian's, it's probably the most obvious example. If you have a chick in that family, she'll probably be called Julia or Yulia, depending on how you want to pronounce it. And if you have more than one, you'll just number them off. So might literally be a number or it might be like a major-minor situation, but it's basically indicating the order in which they were born.

Dr G 39:03
Yeah, now as far as I can tell, the the major-minor element is more to do with historians trying to distinguish historical figures, then how the Romans would have done it. Yeah. So for instance, we've got like Julia Maior – Julia the Elder versus Julia Minor – Julia the Younger – both of those women would have just been called Julia for the Romans.

Dr Rad 39:27
That's true, and they would have just would have been confused.

Dr G 39:30
Yeah. Like which one are you talking about? Like, give me something? And that's where I think everybody must have a nickname. Likewise, the issue with Agrippina Maior – Agrippina the Elder, wife of Germanicus – and Agrippina Minor, the daughter of Agrippina the Elder and Germanicus. Now those two are just, they're just both Agrippina.

Dr Rad 39:50
Yeah, that's true.

Dr G 39:51
That's how it works. So if you've got more than one in the same family, so say the mother gives birth to three daughters. Well, then they start to get numbers you've got Julia? Julia Seconda. Julia Tertia. Yeah, we know of a famous example from the mid to late Republic, Claudia Quinta, suggesting that she was one of five sisters. Youngest at that.

But then you get like with the really sort of the boring things like you say like the feminization of the gens, and it could also include the branch within that gens. So Livia is known to us as Livia Drusilla. Because she comes from the Livi Drusi. Like her name is not special. It's just letting you know where she comes from.

Dr Rad 40:38
Yes, absolutely. And this is kind of to do with the way that Roman marriage evolved. So very early on, we think that the Romans had a more sort of all encompassing version of marriage, the manus marriage, which is where a woman was properly, legally kind of absorbed into the family that she married into, almost as though she was in fact, like a daughter of that family. But that becomes unfashionable. And there are many reasons for that. It kind of has to do, I think, with the fact that women could be used as marriage pawns. And it was just easier to untangle a marriage if you didn't go through the smartest marriage. But that's just my personal opinion.

Dr G 41:23
And also increasingly, as women became able and more likely to inherit, you did want to retain them in the birth family, if you needed to.

Dr Rad 41:32
Yeah, exactly. And so when that happens when you get the sin monos marriage where a woman remains part of her original gens, even though she's married to this man, she will obviously, her name will be like a living advertisement of where she comes from, you know, it'll go obviously, it is like a feminized version of her original gens name. And as time goes on, I know we won't get into it too much, but as time goes on, if women come from particularly elite families, sometimes later on in Rome's history, they actually start to use those names sometimes when they're fashioning names for children sometimes, but that's much that's much later on. And it's, it's too complicated for today.

Dr G 42:19
Yeah. And when the wife comes from a more illustrious family than the husband, you might want to lean into the prestige of where the wife and mother comes from, rather than the husband.

Dr Rad 42:30
Exactly, yeah. And as again, as time goes on, and again, we're not going to get into this too much now. But as time goes on, women do acquire more than just like the one name it we do see women getting more names as time goes on. And if you're not a higher class woman, you may very well get like a nickname or have like a stage name, I suppose of sorts. You know, like, if you're, for example, I'm thinking of women who are like, sex workers, but like elite kind of sex workers, you know, they might have a proper name, but then they might also have like a, a nickname or a working name. So specifically, the one I'll give you an example of, there's a mistress of Mark Antony, known as Cytheris. Now, that wouldn't have been probably her actual name name, but more of like a nickname, because she was an ex-slave of a guy named Volumnius. So her name probably would have been like, Volumnia, or something like that.

Dr G 43:26
Interesting. So like, nicknames. When we've got nicknames that are noted down, they're often really quite rude. We've got one of the infamous examples in the Late Republic is Clodia.

Dr Rad 43:41
Oh, yes.

Dr G 43:41
Now, Clodia is one of three sisters. But then you're like, Well, how are we gonna get her to stand out from the bunch? It turns out that she gains a bunch of nicknames, most of which are really critical, a lot of which come from Cicero, who doesn't like her. She's known as Nola, “the unwilling”. She's, she's also referred to as Medea Palatina, “the Medea of the Palatine”. And sometimes just as it seems, maybe a particular insult or maybe just a literal description, Clodia Metellii. I, because she's married to Metellius, right. So she's Metellus' Clodia, as opposed to anybody else's.

Dr Rad 44:25
So all about the ownership, isn't it?

Dr G 44:28
Yeah. But she is also speculated to be the figure who appears in Catullus' poetry, referred to as Lesbia.

Dr Rad 44:37
Yes, yes.

Dr G 44:38
So she is a woman of many names.

Dr Rad 44:40
Yes, I suppose it's not so much like a stage name. It's like a code name.

Dr G 44:44
Indeed, and look, Catullus, he's, he's got a lot of code names for people. I think my favorite one is his reference consistently to Mamuura – a guy he doesn't like – as Mentula, cause Mentula is is a rude Latin word for penis.

Ah yes, the Romans.

So witty, so clever.

Dr Rad 45:12
Oh, dear, Well, should we talk about slave names? So do you want to wrap up there?

Dr G 45:16
I reckon we should talk about enslaved people, what is happening to them? And how do we know what their names are?

Dr Rad 45:22
Well, this is the thing, Dr. G, slaves very much like women, were low low down in the rank of things, you know, I mean, in terms of what they can actually do in life. Can they be involved in politics in a formal way? Hell no. Can they run an army? Absolutely not. So I think that their lack of role in public life is kind of reflected in their lack of names in terms of they don't have very many, they're that they're certainly not gonna have a trianomina. That is definitely an elite Roman thing.

Dr G 45:56
And it seems to be the case that mostly what happens to them is they get given a name. And it's a cutesy kind of nicknamey kind of thing. It's a bit of a throwaway. Yeah, really emphasizing the fact that they're a possession. And then it's the reference to the gens of the owner, essentially, but not in a way that would suggest that they were part of that family just that they were a possession of that gens.

Dr Rad 46:25
Yes, definitely. And so we do actually have a reasonable amount of slave names, I suppose. We don't always get names like you and I both know, we've talked about a number of like slave uprisings or slaves in forming another slaves with like conspiracies and that kind of thing. And very rarely do we come across a name with that, because they're not important. You know, they're not significant figures to the people who are writing these histories.

Dr G 46:49
Not to the elite writing histories.

Dr Rad 46:51
Yeah, no, no, no, sorry, go on, go on. No, I'm not saying that. Yeah, no, they they're not considered to be important by the Romans who are writing the history. However, this is where archaeology becomes very important. We do have items that have been left behind which record slave names, it might be something to do with like maybe tombstones, or it might be, for example, slave collars. So slave collars sometimes have records of names. So there's one that was found that had engraved on it, “I am called Januarius. I am the slave of Dextrus.”

Dr G 47:23
Hmm. All right. So the slave is called January.

Dr Rad 47:26
Yeah, which might be when he was purchased.

Dr G 47:31
Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty nondescript kind of name in the same way that sort of praenomens end up being as well.

Dr Rad 47:37
Yeah. And then there's also one that we found that “Marci Puer” which means Marcus's boy. So as you say, it's all about ownership. And the way of calling him boy might not reflect his actual age. It's just that way of kind of referring to someone in a very patronizing way. I think like, you know, that they are Yeah, yeah, it might, but we don't know.

Dr G 48:00
This is a bit like the inclusion of so was slave as part of their name. So this is the sort of thing that gets tested as well. So they might have a bit of a throwaway name. So we've got an example. Like, for Phillipus is their name. They're part of the Caecilii. So they're owned by the Caecilii. And they're the slave of Lucius. And that's it, that's their complete name, right. So their name really emphasizes their servitude. And it's clearly not the name that they would ever choose for themselves.

Dr Rad 48:40
No. And one of the interesting things about Roman slavery, unlike other places in the ancient world, is that manumission – or being freed from slavery – does become increasingly common. So there isn't necessarily an expectation that you're going to be a slave forever now, very much I think depends on when you are a slave in room's history, and also, what kind of employment you are given as a slave, for example, I think you have a fairly high chance of being manumitted if you are a household slave. However, if you are working in mines, for example, you're far more likely, unfortunately, to probably just die in those mines and you are to ever be freed.

Dr G 49:22
Yeah, for sure.

Dr Rad 49:23
However, when you are freed, you actually, it kind of starts this process where you can actually start to kind of enter your family into this room and system now, not straightaway, don't, don't get carried away. Don't get ahead of that straightaway. But certainly, your name will reflect as you say, the family that used to own you because you're bonded forever, even though you might be freed. You become a client of that family. And you might even stay physically close to them. For example, they might live near you and you might run a bakery on their behalf or something like that, and they might take an interest in your business, who knows. So your name is going to reflect that new identity. And your children will be able to take part in the Roman system like pretty fully by the time we get to late Republic early empire.

Dr G 50:16
Yeah. So in terms of thinking about how this looks as examples, I've got a couple of examples for you. So one of the things that one of the key things that happens with the name is the inclusion of the libertus or liberta, depending on whether you're masculine or feminine. And so indicating very clearly that you're freed person. Yep, you might retain your old slave name, like your praenomen as a cognomen. And then the other parts of your name, are indicative of who used to own you. So like, it's almost like the ownership continues in an informal way, because like you now carry the name of the person who has enslaved you Yeah, for the rest of your life. So we've got some examples like Aulus Pupius Aulus Libertus Antiochus. So the Aulus Pupius Aulus is about the slave owner. Libertus is indicating this as a freed man. And Antiochus is the name he goes by. So it was probably the name that he had while he was a slave.

Dr Rad 51:32
Right, yeah. And these names as well, as you can kind of tell from that example, they might reflect obviously, where they were from, might have might have something to do with that, again, geography, potentially being a bit of an indicator there.

Dr G 51:46
Potentially, although there did seem to be a trend for giving enslaved people foreign names. So there was a real trend for like Greek slave names. Even if they weren't Greek-

Dr Rad 51:58
Because of the the status of having a Greek slave?

Dr G 52:02
Or just a real recognition that they weren't Roman, even when they became Roman, if you like,

Dr Rad 52:07
True, true. It can also be the slave market where they were bought.

Dr G 52:11
Yeah, exactly.

Dr Rad 52:13
Because they might have no idea.

Dr G 52:15
So like, we've got this continuation of that relationship with the enslaver. And then we've got the capacity in the next generation. So when that freed person if and when they have children, those children will gain more citizen rights. Yes, they will, was the freedmen is always going to be in a restricted kind of position.

Dr Rad 52:35
Yeah, true. And I suppose one of the interesting things is that, say when slaves are still enslaved, they may just go by like the one name, okay. And unlike, when we were talking about Roman cognomen names, and how they developed how they can sometimes be negative, it's unusual to find slave names that are negative, they're usually like positive character traits. So yeah, they don't tend to be which is weird, because you think that the Romans wouldn't care so much about that, but maybe they're trying to I don't know, is that like a morale thing? You're trying to inspire them?

Dr G 53:12
I don't know. They probably just thought it was cute.

Dr Rad 53:15
Yeah. And it might also have something to do with your profession, the name that you're given. So for example, one of the most famous inscriptions, what not inscription, sorry, I shouldn't say that. One of the most famous pieces of graffiti that has been found to do with gladiators mentioned is a gladiator named Celadus, or Seladus, depending on how you want to say it. And this is a yeah, there's a piece of graffiti talking about him and the reaction that the crowds have to him and that sort of thing. And that means “The Crowd's Roar”. So that obviously has something to do with the fact that he is a gladiator. And if you think about of course, the most famous example, I mean, I have to bring him up Spartacus.

Dr G 53:56
It's really hard to get through an episode without a Spartacus mention.

Dr Rad 54:00
I know, I know. But once again, he's just he's just got the one name, okay. Because at the time he's getting this name, you know, he is in fact a slave. And this may potentially be a name that's trying to give him some like Thracian origins, how valid they are or not, who knows, you know?

Dr G 54:19
Yeah, no, fair enough. So I think to wrap up, I just have a couple of hilarious examples to share with you of names.

Dr Rad 54:27
I'm always up for hilarious examples.

Dr G 54:31
You gonna have to bear with me. Okay. So jumping ahead into the high imperial period. The year is 169 CE. And we have the consul of that year, who holds the record as it happens for the person with the most names.

Dr Rad 54:51
Oh.

Dr G 54:53
He has 38 names.

Dr Rad 54:56
What??

Dr G 55:00
But wait for it. Let me give it to you so you can feel the full force, okay?

Dr Rad 55:04
Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm ready.

Dr G 55:07
Q(uinto) Pompeio Q(uinti) f(ilio) Quir(ina) Senecioni / Roscio Murenae Coelio Sex(to) / Iulio Frontino Silio Deciano / C(aio) Iulio Eurycli Herculaneo L(ucio) / Vibullio Pio Augustano Alpino / Bellicio Sollerti Iulio Apro / Ducenio Proculo Rutiliano / Rufino Silio Valenti Valerio / Nigro Cl(audio) Fusco Saxae Amyntiano / Sosio Prisco.

Dr Rad 55:49
I think you forgot to Alfa Romeo. That is so ridiculous. Like, I can't even make sense of like, like, I know that names are supposed to give some indication of like, where you came from and stuff that like you lost me after about the first three.

Dr G 56:05
I hope his nickname is 38 names. So they just call him 38.

Dr Rad 56:11
I love it. Oh my god.

Dr G 56:13
Goodness me, what chaos.

Dr Rad 56:16
But that's what I mean. like, if you're trying to advertise where you came from? Like, did the Romans even get that?

Dr G 56:23
I mean, I there's a lot to take in there isn't there? But yeah, that that appears on an actual inscription. So-

Dr Rad 56:35
So we know it's real. We know it's real.

Dr G 56:38
It's out there. Which is pretty hilarious, I think. And the last example I want to draw your attention to is one that was sent to us by a listener.

Dr Rad 56:49
Yes, I remember this one. You have better eyes than I do. I couldn't read the inscription. Just a FYI, just an FYI, by the way, if you want to send us stuff in, we're both getting older. Can you please send us as many photographs as possible? Like even even like the little caption that goes with the thing in the museum just because our eyes are not what they used to be.

Dr G 57:11
I mean, speak for yourself. She'll be right. So we want to say a huge thank you, first of all to Florian from Switzerland. Thank you very much for sending us this inscription.

Dr Rad 57:25
We were thrilled.

Dr G 57:25
Yes, we were thrilled. It did make our day. This inscription can be found in the Museo Nazionale di Ravenna. So if you happen to be in Ravenna, we totally recommend you go there and have a Look at this. Because this guy's name is Phalleus.

Sounds a bit cheeky.

Sounds like a little bit like phallus. Was his nickname Phallus? I mean, I certainly hope so. That people made a lot of dick jokes about this guy.

Dr Rad 57:54
For sure.

Dr G 57:54
He looks pretty serious on his tombstone, I'll give him that doesn't look happy.

Dr Rad 57:58
Well, it's not really the time for like a big grin, is it?

Dr G 58:04
So Phalleus is the son of Diocles, this we know, he's also the helmsmen of a ship called the Galeata. And his tombstone was erected by his freedmen, Pieris and Nice, or Nike, depending on your preference. And it's got a description here of size. And it says, you know, six feet in front and 15 feet in the field. And I'm hoping that this is not a reference to the size of the phallus, more, more likely a reference to the size of the ship.

Dr Rad 58:40
I was gonna say that sounds like well, more than I can take, Dr G!

Dr G 58:44
That is exceptionally large. So Phalleus, thank you for all that you've done. Searching hard and wide, it's, it's not at all clear what this name might mean, it's pretty unusual. It's fairly unattested. So, we're very lucky to have this example. I think,

Dr Rad 59:04
Did you say that there was a date for this one, as we know when it's from?

Dr G 59:07
Ahh we think so. And I'm not talking here on my own behalf necessarily. Some scholars have looked into this.

Dr Rad 59:14
The royal we.

Dr G 59:16
The royal we. Kind scholars out there who have looked into this because they're mostly interested in this inscription, because it's describing somebody who's in charge of a ship, right? Not a military leader or such or a naval officer, but the person who's actually running the boat, okay? And they think this is from the end of the Julio-Claudian period, or somewhere like sort of like Augustus up to the end of the Julio-Claudian period somewhere in that sort of-

Dr Rad 59:46
Somewhere in that 100 years. Okay, so now so names have started to shift a little bit by then.

Dr G 59:54
Well, we don't get a sense like from this kind of name. It doesn't see seem like we're dealing with like a highbrow Roman family at all, doesn't sit in that category.

Dr Rad 1:00:05
No, it does not.

Dr G 1:00:06
And I'm not sure how to necessarily position this name. But I mean, we've got somebody here called Phalleus, and I personally find joy in that.

Dr Rad 1:00:16
Oh, definitely. And it actually attests to what we were just talking about with the relationship between slaves and their masters, or should I say, former slaves and their masters the fact that this guy's freedmen, organized for his burial, seemingly, which happened even to a very elite people like Pompey, the great when he had, you know, fallen afoul of a whole bunch of people, including Ptolemy the 13th, and had his head cut off. It was his freedmen, I believe, who helped to organize his burial – organize his remains and that sort of thing.

Dr G 1:00:48
Ahh – way to bring some spoilers into this!

Dr Rad 1:00:51
Sorry! Oh dear. Well, I hope that that was a really useful kind of overview of Roman names. As you can see, it's kind of hard to rein in because there's so much change over time, but there is a fascinating topic. And if you would like to hear more, so if you want to hear more about how they evolve over time, and we can look at things like Christian names, or we can look into certain types of names, maybe in a bit more detail, please do let us know.

Dr G 1:01:20
Oh, yeah, if there are topics that you'd like us to consider, or there's little bits of trickiness of ancient Rome, that you would like a more in depth explanation of, please get in touch. We're on many social medias, you can leave a comment on our website, all of those good things, we look at all of the places. And yeah, we'll definitely see what we can find out and put together for you. So Roman names. Excellent, somewhat confusing. And gonna get more confusing as time goes on.

Dr Rad 1:01:48
I was gonna say. To be honest, I still find Roman names very confusing.

Dr G 1:01:54
They are. I do spend time really carefully looking at them when I'm navigating them, because it's easy to – when you're not a Roman – just sort of, like get trip yourself up a little bit. And go back and have to correct but yeah, there's definitely a pattern to what the Romans are doing, depending on where you sit in the hierarchy of Roman society.

Dr Rad 1:02:20
Yeah. And there is a reason for it. I think that's the thing when you when you see like this constant, passing on of names, like, you know, Appius Claudius, Appius Claudius, Appius Claudius, you're like, “Oh, my God, why are they doing this!” But you realize that there is actually a reason, there's a reason, it's not just them trying to be cruel to the generations.

Dr G 1:02:41
You know, it's not that they hate historians.

Dr Rad 1:02:46
If anything, they love history. They build the history right into the name.

Dr G 1:02:50
Yeah. They want us to know exactly what's going on with this guy is very generous of them.

Dr Rad 1:02:56
I think the big takeaway for me, and I'm just going to use this to sum up my thoughts, Dr G, is that they seem so foreign, but when you actually think about it, it's to do with stuff that we still care about, which is your status really like telling people something about yourself. And that's why parents still put so much effort into naming their kids these days, like, they kind of know that the sound of a name, the sound that it makes the meaning of it, and that kind of stuff, it might kind of give certain connotations to people who hear it. And we still obviously have people who have very famous, recognizable last names in our society. So I think that that really resonates with me the status, the kind of recognizable aspects of names. I think that's what I take away from this.

Dr G 1:03:43
Yeah, for sure. And I think you can clearly see the legacy of how influential naming conventions are, when we think about how society works and operates, even within the sort of paradigms of the modern world. There is, depending on where you live, there is the tendency for women to change their name after they get married. And that is a legacy of sort of patriarchal structures. And it's letting people know that there's a kind of a primacy of a masculine line.

Dr Rad 1:04:21
Yeah.

Dr G 1:04:22
And those sorts of things tell you something about the way society works. And people who resist it, or people who accept it are either embracing or criticizing elements of that structure. And the Romans are doing similar things as well, like their naming conventions are not set in stone. Now. They do change over time, and they adapt for the need that they have for the way that this society is operating as well. So you know, poor 38 names. He's trying to do something there. He's got a plan and it's built on a legacy of names adding to your legacy over time. Like he didn't just come out of nowhere, presumably somewhere in his ancestry is somebody with 22 names and bumps out to 28 names and so forth and so on. So it's kind of, he's just sitting at this real crescendo, where it's like, okay, is this it? Is this where we say enough is enough?

Dr Rad 1:05:22
The man isn't, I mean, I'd almost say that he's trying to get away with something and like, be fraudulent in his ancestry, except that it's so frickin obvious that I can't believe that I have to believe it has to be true. Like, it's just crazy otherwise.

Dr G 1:05:34
Look, the the sense in which he's got, he's got that huge legacy from all different parts of all different families. This idea that, that actually, the history of his family is so transparent, that he can tell you the depth of his legacy, and the legacy that he stands upon. That's really fascinating to me, because, I mean, it's, it's outrageous, but hilarious.

Dr Rad 1:05:58
Yeah. And I suppose it's probably good to note, although I'm sure most people know this. But just in case you don't, because we don't know where in the world you might be from. In Australia, and places like America and England and that sort of thing. You still have quite a lot of names that are derived from Latin that are used quite commonly today. So if you're a Mark, if you are an Anthony, if you are an Amelia and Amanda, a Miranda, you have a name that is derived from Latin.

Dr G 1:06:31
I think that's a happy note to wrap up on.

Dr Rad 1:06:33
I think so too. Well, goodbye Dr. G, I say formally in respect of your academic credentials.

Dr G 1:06:42
So Well, Dr. Rad, respecting also your academic credentials. A huge shout out to our Patreon supporters for suggesting this topic to us.

Dr Rad 1:06:54
Absolutely.

Dr G 1:06:55
And a huge thanks to everyone who listens to our show. If you'd like to support our work, there are many ways you can do it. You could leave a review of the podcasts wherever you listen to it. You could also buy us a coffee on Ko Fi. Or you could sign up to be a Patreon as well. We'd love that! No obligation, the episode will be free to you anyway. But, you know, thank you for listening.

Dr Rad 1:07:23
Indeed. And we'll just quickly say that if you want to check out the sources that we use to put together this episode, and also our sound credits, you should check out the show notes at the partial historians.com And you can also use that to find out how to support us but really, one of the best ways to support us and the cheapest is to just tell someone about the show and tell them that you love it.

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