About the Episode

In 2015 while serving in the Obama administration, Dan Shapiro supported the Iran nuclear deal. Mark Dubowitz led the fight to stop it.

A decade later, Iran is a nuclear threshold state. The regime has enriched enough uranium for multiple bombs, deterrence has broken down, and Washington still hasn’t figured out how to stop a nuclear Iran.

Today, Mark and Dan are in the same strategic corner—not because the politics have shifted but because reality has.

And they're both asking the same question: With diplomacy failing and enrichment advancing, what’s next?

 About the Music

Our intro and outro music samples (with artist's permission) Liraz Charhi's single, "Roya" — check out the full version of the song and the meaning behind it here: https://youtu.be/1Ab4XFaWnOk?si=aIdBdvY1mkMiQPN9