Last week marked the 25th anniversary of rugby union abandoning amateurism and legalising professionalism. To mark the occasion, we chat with former Wallaby prop and CEO of Gainline Analytics, Ben Darwin. Ben played before and after 1995 and experienced rugby as an amateur and a professional, so he brings his personal insights as well as a deep knowledge of both rugby codes to our discussion about the reality of amateurism, the problems of professionalism, and the real differences between union and league.

For more on the history of rugby and the other football codes, take a look at www.rugbyreloaded.com (which also has show notes and links for this episode) and follow me on Twitter at @collinstony.