LessWrong (30+ Karma)

“2025-Era “Reward Hacking” Does Not Show that Reward Is the Optimization Target” by TurnTrout


Listen Later

Folks ask me, "LLMs seem to reward hack a lot. Does that mean that reward is the optimization target?". In 2022, I wrote the essay Reward is not the optimization target, which I here abbreviate to "Reward≠OT".

Reward still is not the optimization target: Reward≠OT said that (policy-gradient) RL will not train systems which primarily try to optimize the reward function for its own sake (e.g. searching at inference time for an input which maximally activates the AI's specific reward model). In contrast, empirically observed "reward hacking" almost always involves the AI finding unintended "solutions" (e.g. hardcoding answers to unit tests).

"Reward hacking" and "Reward≠OT" refer to different meanings of "reward"

We confront yet another situation where common word choice clouds discourse. In 2016, Amodei et al. defined "reward hacking" to cover two quite different behaviors:

  1. Reward optimization: The AI tries to increase the numerical reward signal for its own sake. Examples: overwriting its reward function to always output MAXINT ("reward tampering") or searching at inference time for an input which maximally activates the AI's specific reward model. Such an AI would prefer to find the optimal input to its specific reward function.
  2. Specification gaming: The AI [...]

---

Outline:

(00:57) Reward hacking and Reward≠OT refer to different meanings of reward

(02:53) Reward≠OT was about reward optimization

(04:39) Why did people misremember Reward≠OT as conflicting with reward hacking results?

(06:22) Evaluating Reward≠OTs actual claims

(06:56) Claim 3: RL-trained systems wont primarily optimize the reward signal

(07:28) My concrete predictions on reward optimization

(10:14) I made a few mistakes in Reward≠OT

(11:54) Conclusion

The original text contained 4 footnotes which were omitted from this narration.

---

First published:

December 18th, 2025

Source:

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/wwRgR3K8FKShjwwL5/2025-era-reward-hacking-does-not-show-that-reward-is-the

---

Narrated by TYPE III AUDIO.

---

Images from the article:

Apple Podcasts and Spotify do not show images in the episode description. Try Pocket Casts, or another podcast app.

...more
View all episodesView all episodes
Download on the App Store

LessWrong (30+ Karma)By LessWrong


More shows like LessWrong (30+ Karma)

View all
The Daily by The New York Times

The Daily

113,129 Listeners

Astral Codex Ten Podcast by Jeremiah

Astral Codex Ten Podcast

132 Listeners

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat by New York Times Opinion

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat

7,262 Listeners

Dwarkesh Podcast by Dwarkesh Patel

Dwarkesh Podcast

561 Listeners

The Ezra Klein Show by New York Times Opinion

The Ezra Klein Show

16,487 Listeners

AI Article Readings by Readings of great articles in AI voices

AI Article Readings

4 Listeners

Doom Debates! by Liron Shapira

Doom Debates!

14 Listeners

LessWrong posts by zvi by zvi

LessWrong posts by zvi

2 Listeners