A conversation with Eleni Kefala (University of St. Andrews) on the fall of two empires, the Byzantine and the Aztec. What role did these momentous events play in the emerging identity of western Europe? And how were they experienced by the Romaioi and the native Mexica, especially through the laments that they wrote and sang about these events? The conversation is based on Eleni's book The Conquered: Byzantium and America on the Cusp of Modernity (Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection, Washington D.C. 2020).