A World of Difference

Uncover the shocking truth behind a pastor's arrest and the toxic systems in faith communities. Join me as we delve into a Twitter thread that reveals the dark underbelly of abuse, manipulation, and cover-ups within religious institutions. You won't believe the tactics used to protect the abuser and silence the whistleblowers. This eye-opening discussion will leave you with a newfound understanding of the challenges survivors face and the importance of dismantling toxic systems. Stay tuned to unravel the unexpected truths and be part of a community where your voice matters.

In this episode, you will be able to:

Uncovering tactics used to silence victims is a critical part of creating safer faith communities. These strategies may include deflecting blame onto whistleblowers, encouraging unification around the abuser, and invoking notions of spiritual warfare to foster loyalty. Awareness of these tactics can encourage conversations about abuse and discourage the protection of abusers.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

"Centering survivors should be number one. But I just almost never hear it in these cases." - Lori Adams-Brown

Recognizing signs of abusive pastors can be challenging due to their position of authority. However, patterns often emerge including the protection of the pastor over the well-being of the congregation. This emphasis on shielding the pastor can lead to harmful practices like silencing victims, minimizing the severity of the abuse, and even blaming those who speak out.

Survivors of abuse should be treated with respect and care. Instead of centering the narrative around the abuser in times of crisis, communities should prioritize listening to and supporting survivors. Creating a culture that truly supports survivors can help dismantle toxic systems and create an environment in which truth and transparency prevail.

"I hope you get to a place of safety. I hope you get to a place where your voice matters. And I hope you can find the freedom and the love that you deserve to thrive with your spirituality in a place where it's safe to be you and to speak the truth out loud."-Lori Adams-Brown

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Introduction to World of Difference Podcast

00:01:40 - Processing News of Pastor Arrest

00:03:52 - Grooming and Gaslighting in Faith Communities

00:07:14 - Patterns of Abusive Leadership

00:13:57 - Distracting from Abuse with Grandiosity

00:14:46 - Downplaying Abuse and Crime

00:15:30 - Unifying Around the Abuser

00:16:41 - Spiritual Warfare and Manipulation

00:18:07 - Silencing and Control

00:19:55 - Finding Safety and Support

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introduction to World of Difference Podcast

Lori Adams-Brown introduces the podcast as a platform for those who are different and want to make a difference, sponsored by Betterhelp for therapy and personal growth.

00:01:40 - Processing News of Pastor Arrest

Lori shares her personal experience of processing the news of a pastor's arrest on 35 counts of sexual assault and how it resonated with many listeners on Twitter.

00:03:52 - Grooming and Gaslighting in Faith Communities

Lori discusses how faith communities often groom their members to protect abusive leaders, focusing on the abuser rather than the victims, and using psychological tactics like gaslighting.

00:07:14 - Patterns of Abusive Leadership

The conversation delves into the common patterns of abusive leadership in faith communities, including the use of coercion, betrayal blindness, and centering the abusive leader while disregarding the victims.

00:13:57 - Distracting from Abuse with Grandiosity

Lori highlights the tactic of using grandiosity, such as claiming "God has big plans for the pastor," to distract from the abuse and crimes, and redirect focus to the size and success of the ministry.

00:14:46 - Downplaying Abuse and Crime

The conversation starts with a discussion on the tactic of downplaying sexual abuse as merely a sin, minimizing the severity of the abuse and crime.

00:15:30 - Unifying Around the Abuser

The tactic of using unity language to silence whistleblowers and center the focus around the abuser instead of the victims, creating a cult-like environment.

00:16:41 - Spiritual Warfare and Manipulation

Manipulative tactics of framing the situation as a battle between good and evil, pressuring individuals to support the abuser and silencing conversations about safety within the faith community.

00:18:07 - Silencing and Control

Addressing the tactic of silencing and controlling the narrative within religious environments to maintain image management and prevent conversations about abuse and misconduct.

00:19:55 - Finding Safety and Support

Offering support and empathy to individuals in faith environments where abuse and red flags are present, encouraging them to seek safety and speak the truth.

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In the pursuit of becoming a great leader, Lance Ford found himself immersed in the fervor of the mid-90s Seeker church movement. However, his journey took an unexpected turn as he began to notice discrepancies between the teachings of Jesus and the prevailing leadership ethos. This realization led to his departure from the church he had founded, and a subsequent role at a prominent megachurch only solidified his conviction that a deeper issue permeated the church's leadership structures. What he discovered will challenge everything you thought you knew about leadership in the church.

If you're feeling overwhelmed by the pressure to grow your church at any cost, then you are not alone! The relentless focus on numbers and programs may be leaving you feeling spiritually depleted, despite the outward appearance of success. If you're feeling like you have to put on a facade of perfection and always have all the answers, then you are not alone! The pursuit of a mega-church model may be causing you to neglect your own well-being and authenticity as a leader. If you're feeling like you're constantly comparing your church to others and never measuring up, then you are not alone! The endless cycle of competition and comparison in the pursuit of growth may be leading to burnout and a loss of true community within your congregation.

My special guest is Lance Ford.

Lance Ford, a well-established church leader and author, has made significant contributions to the faith community through his publications in recognized platforms like Christianity Today and Outreach magazine. With a distinguished career spanning over three decades, Lance has applied his expertise as a pastor and church planner to develop unique training systems utilized by network seminaries and leaders globally. Renowned for his insightful books, including "Unleader," "The Starfish and the Spirit," and "Missional Essentials," Lance has demonstrated a comprehensive understanding of the complexities within evangelical spaces. His latest work, "The Atlas Factor," critically examines the inherent pitfalls of traditional church leadership models, offering valuable insights and practical wisdom for church leaders and pastors aiming to establish healthier and more authentic leadership structures. Lance's extensive experience and authoritative perspective position him as a valuable resource for reshaping leadership dynamics within the faith community.

You're not wrong with those little red flags. When you go to the scripture again, you start seeing it. - Lance Ford

In this episode, you will be able to:

Cultivating healthier leadership structures

Creating healthier leadership structures within the church is a salient issue across different denominations and sizes of churches. Institutions can draw on Jesus Christ's teachings for inspiration, fostering a balance of power that encourages servant-hearted leadership. By shifting leadership paradigms and prioritizing the fundamental teachings of Jesus Christ, churches can cultivate healthier communities that better serve their congregations and embody the true spirit of Christianity.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

The majority are good. Even some of the worst abusers that we could name today, you look back at their history, you talk to the witnesses that were around in the early days. They started out good. - Lance Ford

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Introducing the Podcast and Guest

00:01:52 - Lance's Background and Book

00:04:10 - Aha Moment

00:11:08 - Root Causes of Leadership Issues

00:14:15 - Church as a Platform for Narcissism

00:16:38 - The Evolution of Leadership

00:23:17 - Abuse of Power in Churches

00:27:04 - Jesus' Approach to Power

00:29:32 - Impact of the System on Whistleblowers

00:30:21 - The Atlas Factor

00:33:33 - The Importance of the Atlas Vertebra

00:35:06 - Paul's Teachings on Leadership

00:36:57 - Challenging Traditional Leadership Models

00:39:55 - Overcoming Cognitive Dissonance

00:46:03 - A Call to Action and Finding Support

00:49:19 - Importance of Metaphor and Theology

00:50:05 - Lance's Approach and Authenticity

00:51:46 - Recognizing Red Flags

00:52:47 - Lance's Empathy and Straightforwardness

00:55:21 - Self-Care and Encouragement

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introducing the Podcast and Guest

Lori introduces the podcast and the guest, Lance Ford. She highlights his background as a pastor, church planter, and author, and emphasizes his new book, "The Atlas Factor."

00:01:52 - Lance's Background and Book

Lance shares his background as a pastor and network director, and his journey of questioning leadership in the church. He discusses his previous book, "Unleader," and how it led to the writing of "The Atlas Factor."

00:04:10 - Aha Moment

Lori asks Lance about his moment of realization regarding the leadership culture in the church. Lance shares his experience of being on staff at a large church and witnessing questionable behavior from influential leaders, leading to his realization of the epidemic.

00:11:08 - Root Causes of Leadership Issues

Lori and Lance discuss the potential causes of the toxic leadership culture in the church. They touch on the attraction of power and influence in faith-based organizations and the potential draw for individuals with narcissistic tendencies.

00:14:15 - Church as a Platform for Narcissism

The conversation delves into the allure of the church as a platform for individuals with narcissistic tendencies to fulfill their desire for power and control. They explore the dynamics that enable and perpetuate such behavior within church leadership.

00:16:38 - The Evolution of Leadership

Lance discusses his surprise at the newness of the concept of leadership, as evidenced by its absence in older dictionaries. He highlights the industrial revolution's impact on the development of modern leadership theories.

00:23:17 - Abuse of Power in Churches

Lori and Lance discuss the specific impact of the industrial revolution on church leadership and the resulting burnout culture. They emphasize the need to address systemic issues rather than just symptoms.

00:27:04 - Jesus' Approach to Power

Lance delves into Jesus' teachings on power and leadership, emphasizing the contrast between worldly power dynamics and the servant leadership model promoted by Jesus.

00:29:32 - Impact of the System on Whistleblowers

The conversation explores the detrimental effects of the current leadership system on whistleblowers and women, highlighting the toxic masculinity and patriarchal structures within the church.

00:30:21 - The Atlas Factor

Lance introduces the concept of the Atlas factor as a metaphor for the burden placed on church leaders to carry the weight of the world. He explores the idea of decentralized leadership and the need to shift the focus onto Jesus as the true head of the church.

00:33:33 - The Importance of the Atlas Vertebra

Lance Ford discusses the significance of the atlas vertebra, its role in connecting the brain to the body, and how misalignment can affect overall health.

00:35:06 - Paul's Teachings on Leadership

Paul's writings in Ephesians are discussed, emphasizing the importance of the body of Christ and the misuse of titles such as "head pastor" in modern leadership models.

00:36:57 - Challenging Traditional Leadership Models

Lance encourages readers to re-examine their understanding of leadership by reading the Bible with fresh eyes and questioning the prevailing church growth and leadership models.

00:39:55 - Overcoming Cognitive Dissonance

The conversation delves into the challenges of navigating cognitive dissonance within the church, addressing the disconnect between what should be happening and what actually occurs in many church settings.

00:46:03 - A Call to Action and Finding Support

Lance offers support to those who have experienced abuse within the church, providing hope and practical resources for individuals and communities seeking positive change. He also shares his contact information for further assistance.

00:49:19 - Importance of Metaphor and Theology

Lance Ford discusses the significance of the metaphor of the Atlas factor and theological implications. He emphasizes the need for people to know they are not alone in dealing with toxic faith environments.

00:50:05 - Lance's Approach and Authenticity

Lori praises Lance's research synthesis and caring nature. She highlights his ability to give language to issues and communicate in a caring and loving manner. Lance's authenticity in addressing hard truths is also commended.

00:51:46 - Recognizing Red Flags

Lori emphasizes the importance of recognizing red flags in toxic faith environments. She encourages listeners to pick up Lance's book, "The Atlas Factor," to gain insight into unhealthy church dynamics and toxic leadership.

00:52:47 - Lance's Empathy and Straightforwardness

Lori appreciates Lance's empathy towards marginalized individuals and his ability to synthesize information. She commends his straightforward yet caring approach in addressing toxic faith environments and interactions with people.

00:55:21 - Self-Care and Encouragement

Lori encourages listeners to engage in self-care and mindfulness after listening to the podcast. She affirms the value and worth of the audience, urging them to take care of themselves as they continue making a difference in the world.

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Have you heard the myths about feminist readings of the Bible? Some common myths include: feminist interpretations of the Bible are anti-male, feminist readings ignore traditional religious teachings, and feminist perspectives on the Bible are not rooted in scholarly research. Our guest, Dr. Julie Faith Parker, will share the truth, dispel these myths, and provide a deeper understanding of the feminist perspectives found in biblical texts.

My special guest is Dr. Julie Faith Parker

Our guest today is Dr. Julie Faith Parker, an accomplished biblical scholar and author of the book "Eve Isn't Evil: Feminist Readings of the Bible to Upend Our Assumptions." With a distinguished background in ancient languages, including Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, Dr. Parker brings a wealth of expertise to the discussion. Her extensive research focuses on the cultural and linguistic nuances of the biblical world, providing valuable insights into feminist interpretations of biblical texts. As a visiting scholar at Union Theological Seminary and a biblical scholar in residence at Marble Collegiate Church in New York City, Dr. Parker's work has garnered widespread acclaim for its scholarly depth and thought-provoking perspectives. We are honored to have her join us on the show today.

The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there. - Dr. Julie Faith Parker

In this episode, you will be able to:

Discovering the Significance of Original Languages

The episode emphasizes the value of studying the Bible in its original languages. Such study provides valuable insights into the minds of biblical figures and bypasses the influence of interpretive decisions made by translators. By examining the scripture in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and other languages, listeners can discover new nuances, foster a deeper understanding of the texts, and challenge commonly accepted interpretations.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

Gaining Insight into the Cultural Context

Understanding the cultural context that shaped the Bible's narratives, forms a significant part of the discussions in this episode. The biblical world, markedly different from today's society, had unique vocabularies, concepts, and societal structures that influence how we interpret the text. Grasping these aspects is vital to fully appreciate the texts and uncover hidden meanings obscured by modern perspectives.

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Introduction to the Podcast

00:00:32 - Introducing Betterhelp

00:01:22 - Introducing Dr. Julie Faith Parker

00:03:18 - Understanding the Biblical World

00:08:08 - Importance of Language Study

00:14:08 - Reinterpreting the Psalms

00:16:43 - The Psalms in Latin America

00:18:26 - Teaching in Sing Sing

00:20:58 - Criminals in the Bible

00:27:17 - Feminist Lens on the Scriptures

00:28:22 - Feminist Interpretation of Scriptures

00:29:49 - Unique Filters in Reading Scriptures

00:31:32 - Family Struggles and Labels

00:35:35 - Reinterpretation of Eve

00:40:55 - Consequences of Punishments

00:41:04 - The Divine Mother and Daughter

00:42:22 - The Misinterpretation of Eve

00:44:50 - Feminist Lens on the Book of Job

00:48:26 - Job's Integrity and Feminist Takeaway

00:51:06 - Understanding Eve and Women in Ancient Scriptures

00:54:00 - Introduction to Difference Maker Community

00:54:40 - Exclusive Episodes and Community Benefits

00:55:03 - Call to Action

00:54:00 - Introduction to Difference Maker Community

00:54:40 - Exclusive Episodes and Community Benefits

All of us are different, but some people have labels that are put upon them that you live with because it's your ticket to services. It's how you hopefully can get some help, but that's not easy. - Dr. Julie Faith Parker

Exploring Feminist Perspectives in the Bible

The episode unveils a fresh outlook on biblical narratives by exploring feminist interpretations. By questioning traditional interpretations, particularly those that perpetuate inequality, and shedding light on the strength and resilience of women in the Bible, the episode underscores their crucial role in biblical stories. Such exploration of feminist perspectives can break away from the conventional interpretations, highlighting women's experiences, voices, and roles in the Bible.

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introduction to the Podcast

Lori introduces the podcast and its focus on making a difference for those who are different. She also highlights the importance of self-care for difference-makers.

00:00:32 - Introducing BetterHelp

Lori talks about the importance of seeking help and introduces Betterhelp.com/difference as the sponsor of the podcast, offering a 10% discount to listeners. She shares her personal experience with therapy and healing.

00:01:22 - Introducing Dr. Julie Faith Parker

Lori introduces Dr. Julie Faith Parker, a biblical scholar and author of "Eve isn't evil feminist readings of the Bible to upend our assumptions." She highlights Dr. Parker's extensive background and research interests.

00:03:18 - Understanding the Biblical World

Dr. Parker discusses the importance of understanding the cultural differences in the biblical world, emphasizing the tribal, age-integrated society and the absence of certain concepts like privacy, individualism, and race.

00:08:08 - Importance of Language Study

Dr. Parker shares her experience studying multiple languages and how it offers insights into the biblical texts. She emphasizes the importance of original languages to better understand cultural nuances and avoid the biases of translators.

00:14:08 - Reinterpreting the Psalms

Julie shares her experience of using the Psalms for spiritual connection during a dangerous encounter in Nicaragua. She highlights the cultural and biblical significance of the Psalms and the sense of worship they provide.

00:16:43 - The Psalms in Latin America

Julie reflects on her experience of singing the Psalms in Spanish during worship in Venezuela. She discusses the influence of liberation theology and the impact of the Psalms on her understanding of different types of liberation.

00:18:26 - Teaching in Sing Sing

Julie talks about her transformative experience teaching at Sing Sing Maximum security prison. She emphasizes the intelligence and capability of the incarcerated individuals and challenges the stigma surrounding people who have been incarcerated.

00:20:58 - Criminals in the Bible

Julie discusses the presence of individuals who committed crimes in the Bible, such as Cain, Moses, David, Jesus, and Paul. She emphasizes the importance of offering second chances and not being quick to judge incarcerated individuals.

00:27:17 - Feminist Lens on the Scriptures

Julie explains her choice of using a feminist lens to interpret the scriptures. She shares her experience of feeling empowered and discovering a different perspective on the story of Eve, challenging traditional interpretations.

00:28:22 - Feminist Interpretation of Scriptures

Julie discusses making the scriptures accessible to all, regardless of biblical education. Feminist interpretation liberated her and she hopes her book will do the same.

00:29:49 - Unique Filters in Reading Scriptures

Julie talks about the uniqueness of individual filters when reading scriptures. She relates it to her work in leadership development and emphasizes the relevance of the scriptures to human experiences.

00:31:32 - Family Struggles and Labels

Julie shares her family struggles, including her son's autism diagnosis and daughter's bipolar disorder. She highlights the importance of erasing the stigma associated with such conditions and finding help.

00:35:35 - Reinterpretation of Eve

Julie discusses her reinterpretation of Eve, emphasizing her curiosity and the blame unfairly placed on her. She delves into the translations and punishments related to Eve's story.

00:40:55 - Consequences of Punishments

Julie explores the consequences of the punishments given to Adam and Eve. She discusses the ideology and patriarchy reflected in the scriptures' portrayal of gender roles.

00:41:04 - The Divine Mother and Daughter

Julie discusses the relationship between Eve and God, highlighting the divine connection between mothers and daughters. She emphasizes that the presence of women together reflects the presence of the divine mother and daughter.

00:42:22 - The Misinterpretation of Eve

Julie delves into the misinterpretation of Eve's actions, pointing out the mistranslation of her words and the bias against her character in the biblical text. She challenges the traditional narrative and provides a feminist perspective on Eve.

00:44:50 - Feminist Lens on the Book of Job

Julie explores the feminist perspective in the book of Job, highlighting the portrayal of women characters and their significance in the narrative. She emphasizes the importance of interpreting the text through a feminist lens to uncover hidden biases.

00:48:26 - Job's Integrity and Feminist Takeaway

Julie discusses Job's refusal to accept blame and his unwavering integrity in the face of adversity. She interprets this as a feminist takeaway, emphasizing the importance of standing up against unfair accusations and holding onto one's truth.

00:51:06 - Understanding Eve and Women in Ancient Scriptures

Julie shares her insights on understanding Eve and women in ancient scriptures, highlighting the importance of reexamining the portrayal of women in religious texts. She encourages a deeper understanding of women's roles and experiences in ancient narratives.

00:54:00 - Introduction to Difference Maker Community

Lori introduces the Difference Maker Community where listeners can engage with guests and participate in polls to impact the podcast content for 2024.

00:54:40 - Exclusive Episodes and Community Benefits

Lori encourages joining the community to access exclusive episodes and interact with guests. Access is available for as little as $5 a month on patreon.com.

00:55:03 - Call to Action

Lori invites listeners to join the community and acknowledges their efforts in making a difference worldwide. She signs off with a reminder to continue making a difference.

00:54:00 - Introduction to Difference Maker Community

Lori introduces the Difference Maker Community where listeners can engage with guests and participate in polls to impact the podcast content for 2024.

00:54:40 - Exclusive Episodes and Community Benefits

Lori encourages joining the community to access exclusive episodes and interact with guests. Access is available for as little as $5 a month on www.patreon.com/difference.

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If you're feeling frustrated and helpless in your efforts to promote cultural and linguistic accuracy in the church, despite taking actions like advocating for diverse representation and using inclusive language, then you are not alone!

Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scott McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. But when it comes to women in ministry and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.

In this episode, you will be able to:

My special guest is Dr. Scot McKnight

Meet Dr. Scot McKnight, a renowned New Testament professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois and a prolific author with a passion for diving deep into the cultural context of biblical texts. As a guest on Lori Adams-Brown's podcast, Scot brings his expertise in Bible translation and interpretation, having written over 90 books, including widely-read titles like "A Church Called Tov" and "The Blue Parakeet." A dedicated advocate for abuse survivors and a favorite professor among his students, Dr. McKnight's insights are sure to enrich your understanding of the Bible.

"I believe in the power of a more literal translation."- Dr. Scot McKnight

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

The Way of Jesus

Good leadership in the church involves recognizing, using, and sharing power in ways that are faithful to the teachings of Jesus. Followers of Jesus should strive to cultivate humility, compassion, and an attitude of serving others, often forgoing one's power to benefit those who are more vulnerable. Dr. Scot McKnight, during the podcast interview, mentioned several examples of power abuse in the church, contrasting them with the biblical teachings of Jesus. He specifically cited Romans 16 and Philippians 2:1-11, which emphasize the concept of Kenosis – the act of laying down one's power to serve others. McKnight believes that understanding this concept and applying it in the context of leadership and church relationships is essential to embodying the way of Jesus and countering the negative aspects of power dynamics in churches.

"Words deeply matter, and those words can wound and they can hurt for a long time." - Dr. Scot McKnight

Women in Ministry

An accurate translation plays a crucial role in recognizing and valuing the contributions of women in the early church. Being mindful of the words used to describe women's roles is crucial as language can shape our understanding and reinforce stereotypes or power dynamics within the church. By translating words and phrases accurately, women's contributions to the early church can be acknowledged and celebrated more fairly. During the conversation, Dr. McKnight emphasized the importance of using accurate translation to highlight women's roles in the church, such as translating the word Phoebe to mean "deacon" rather than "servant." He also mentioned the prevalence of false narratives and power dynamics in church culture that can negatively affect how people perceive women's roles in ministry. By ensuring accurate translations, he believes we can better acknowledge, value, and empower women working in the church.

Keeping Names Authentic

One of the essential aspects of ensuring cultural authenticity in a Bible translation is the use of names as close as possible to what they would have sounded in the original language. This offers a sense of novelty and unfamiliarity for readers, prompting reflection on the context and culture surrounding the text. By preserving the original names, readers can gain deeper insights into the characters and their significance in the narrative. Dr. McKnight uses transliteration in his translation, meaning that names in the Bible are rendered more authentically, closer to their original language. For instance, Yakobos is used instead of the English equivalent, James. Dr. McKnight argued during the podcast that using such authentic names invites readers to reconsider the context and culture of the Bible's characters, creating a more engaging and meaningful reading experience.

"We need to be careful with the words we use for translations, because if we don't get it right, it can hurt people." - Dr. Scot McKnight

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introduction,

Dr. Scott McKnight is an advocate in the survivor community and a professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois. He has written over 90 books and blogs at The Jesus Creed. He talks about his new translation of the New Testament, the Second Testament, which he made more literal to help people understand the ancient context of the text.

00:06:01 - Reason for New Translation,

McKnight believes that the capacity to translate Greek into English has reached near perfection, but people miss things when they try to make it a natural English equivalent. He wants to show people the differences between the original Greek sentence and the English sentence.

00:11:37 - Distinctives of the Second Testament,

McKnight was inspired to translate the New Testament after reading John Golden Gay's translation of the Old Testament. One of the distinctives is the transliteration of names, which may be confusing but creates an authentic ancient context. McKnight's translation sometimes sounds clunky because it is formally equivalent, but that helps readers slow down and think.

00:14:57 - Keeping Names Authentic,

The Second Testament transliterates names to help readers understand the ancient context. This makes the text feel foreign and distant, which is appropriate, as it helps readers dig deeper into cultural exegesis. McKnight believes that being familiar with the text can be a hindrance to truly understanding it.

00:15:47 - Familiarity with the Text,

Familiarity with the text can sometimes

00:16:13 - The Impact of Names on Reading,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the impact of names on reading and how different names can lead readers to think differently and understand a text in a new way. He suggests that using the original Greek text can take readers into the first-century Christian world and help them understand the text in a new light.

00:18:10 - Women in Ministry,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the controversy around women pastors, using the example of the lack of pastors in the Bible. He suggests that titles such as Piscopos, Diaconos, and Presbutaros were used instead. He also refers to Romans 16, which mentions several women involved in church ministry, including an apostle and a deacon.

00:22:54 - Multiculturalism in the Early Church,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the multicultural and multiracial nature of the early church, with a mix of slaves and free people, men and women, and Jews and Gentiles. He draws attention to the several women mentioned in Romans 16, performing ministries that today would be called pastoring.

00:27:39 - The Importance of Language,

Dr. Scot McKnight emphasizes the importance of language and translation, pointing out that the wrong translation can hurt people. He uses the example of King James' Bible, which made choices to keep its subjects subdued. He also discusses the power dynamics in evangelical churches and how they favor men and certain behaviors that have become manly.

00:33:10 - The Four Types of Power,

Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the four types of power: power over, power to influence, power with, and power for. He explains how power over is the most corrupted form of power and how it is prevalent in the business world, sports, and even the church. He also highlights the importance of using power for the good of others and sharing power with others.

00:35:25 - The Power With,

Dr. McKnight delves deeper into the concept of power with and how it involves the willingness to share power with someone else to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome. He cites his experience of co-authoring a book with a young man and how they worked together to create a cohesive product.

00:36:53 - Power For,

Dr. McKnight discusses the last type of power, power for, which involves using one's power for the good of another person. He cites Jesus Christ as an example of this type of power, as He came not to be served but to serve and give His life for others.

00:40:00 - Dealing with Spiritual Abuse,

Dr. McKnight advises people who are experiencing spiritual abuse or know someone who is to first become healthy enough to handle the blowback that comes with going public. He also stresses the importance of having a support system and following the proper protocols or guidelines for reporting abuse. Lastly, he emphasizes the need for patience and resilience as it may take a long time to see change.

00:50:50 - Abusing Power in Churches,

Dr. Scott McKnight discusses how some pastors and church leaders abuse their power, particularly with vulnerable members such as children. He encourages readers to follow his work in understanding power dynamics and using power for good, especially with survivors of abuse.

00:52:00 - The Way of Jesus,

Dr. Scott McKnight emphasizes the way of Jesus in using power for good and elevating others. He references the Kenosis passage in Philippians 2 and encourages listeners to learn how to understand and wield their power for the benefit of others.

00:53:38 - Call to Action,

Lori Adams-Brown issues a call to action for listeners to use their power for good, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages finding a survivor and listening to their story while respecting their autonomy and using power to elevate their voice and support them.

00:54:48 - Tov

Lori Adams-Brown references Dr. Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer's book, A Church Called TOV, and highlights the importance of using power in tov, or goodness, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages listeners to find ways to support survivors and let them lead the way in how they want to share their stories and move forward.

00:56:03 - Conclusion,

Lori Adams-Brown thanks listeners for their work in making a difference and encourages them to read Dr. Scot McKnight's book, Second Testament. She also hints at future episodes with Dr. Scot McKnight and his new book with Laura Barringer as a follow up to A Church Called TOV.

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In a world where women's voices are marginalized, join Liz Cooledge Jenkins as she challenges patriarchal structures in evangelicalism and empowers women to reclaim their humanity. But will she be able to make a difference in a system resistant to change? Discover the shocking truth in this gripping journey of faith and advocacy.

In this episode of the A World of Difference podcast, you'll join host Lori Adams-Brown as she chats with guest Liz Cooledge Jenkins about reclaiming women's humanity from evangelicalism. Liz shares her own experiences and insights, drawing from her background as a writer, preacher, and former college campus minister. The conversation explores the impact of patriarchal structures within the church and the importance of speaking out against gender inequality. Liz's book, Nice Churchy Patriarchy, is praised for its compelling title and narrative approach, making it a valuable resource for anyone seeking to challenge patriarchal norms in evangelicalism. Through personal narratives and thought-provoking discussions, this episode empowers individuals to reclaim their humanity and advocate for gender equality in religious communities. So grab your headphones and get ready to dive into this inspiring conversation on A World of Difference.

My special guest is

Liz Coolidge Jenkins is not your typical preacher and writer. With a BS in Symbolic Systems from Stanford and a Master of Divinity, Liz brings a unique blend of intellect and spirituality to her work. She is passionate about challenging patriarchal norms within evangelicalism and advocating for gender equality in religious communities. Through her writing, Liz fearlessly delves into the complex issues surrounding women's rights and roles in the church. Her book, "Nice Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism," is a powerful exploration of her own journey and experiences within the evangelical world. With a mix of personal narrative and insightful analysis, Liz offers a fresh perspective on how we can create faith communities that are inclusive, just, and life-giving for everyone. Prepare to be inspired and empowered as Liz Cooledge Jenkins invites you to join her in reclaiming women's humanity and transforming the religious landscape.

Amplifying Women's Voices

The importance of amplifying women's voices is a primary factor in challenging and shifting age-old patriarchal structures, particularly within evangelical contexts. Women's experiences, insights, and perspectives can bring a fresh understanding and significant contributions to religious and societal discourses. Actively seeking and valuing women's voices is a crucial step towards attaining gender equality and smashing restrictive norms.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

In this episode, you will be able to:

Challenging Patriarchal Power Structures

Patriarchal power structures are deeply ingrained, not only in religious communities but also in broader society. They can perpetuate gender inequality and hinder progress towards a just and inclusive world. Challenging these structures requires courage, collective action, and mindful efforts to uplift marginalized voices, fostering a shift toward equality and fairness.

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Introduction and Sponsorship

00:02:00 - Introduction of Liz Cooledge Jenkins

00:05:06 - Writing Style and Personal Narrative

00:07:48 - Dave's Comment on Women in Ministry

00:10:49 - Reflection on College Experience

00:15:20 - Neutrality and its Impact on Women in the Church

00:16:40 - The Threat of Speaking Up

00:18:22 - Marginalizing Voices of Change

00:19:59 - The Importance of Advocacy

00:21:54 - The Impact of the Barbie Movie on Gender Equality

00:30:47 - Rethinking Leadership and Gender

00:33:23 - Navigating Challenges in Evangelical Spaces

00:36:25 - Dealing with Silencing and Marginalization

00:37:58 - Reflecting on Experiences and Finding Empowerment

00:41:24 - Calls to Action for Male Pastors

00:47:14 - The Importance of Women's Perspectives

00:47:57 - Liz's Experience in Seminary

00:48:47 - Book Recommendation: "Nice. Churchy Patriarchy"

00:49:11 - Difference Maker Community and Deeper Conversations

Uncovering hidden stories

Hidden stories are powerful narratives often overlooked or suppressed due to their challenging nature towards established norms. In the context of evangelicalism, these stories often stem from marginalized voices speaking up against patriarchal power structures. These narratives play a crucial role in fostering empathy, broadening perspective, and ultimately empowering individuals who may be experiencing similar struggles.

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introduction and Sponsorship

Lori introduces the podcast and the sponsor, BetterHelp.com, which offers therapy services. She shares her positive experience with therapy and encourages listeners to take advantage of the 10% off offer.

00:02:00 - Introduction of Liz Cooledge Jenkins

Lori introduces Liz Cooledge Jenkins as a writer, preacher, and former college campus minister. She mentions Liz's educational background and her writing contributions to various publications. Lori also mentions Liz's new book, "Nice Churchy Patriarchy."

00:05:06 - Writing Style and Personal Narrative

Lori discusses how Liz chose to incorporate personal narratives into her book and why she believes stories are powerful. They also touch on the challenge of making academic writing accessible to a broader audience.

00:07:48 - Dave's Comment on Women in Ministry

Liz shares an experience from her college years when a church member named Dave made a patronizing comment about women in ministry. She reflects on how it made her feel and the importance of women defining what is best for themselves.

00:10:49 - Reflection on College Experience

Lori asks Liz how she felt during that jarring experience as a college student and what she would say to her younger self. Liz expresses her shock and the lack of words to respond at the time, but affirms that her feelings were valid.

00:15:20 - Neutrality and its Impact on Women in the Church

The discussion begins with the question of neutrality and its implications. The guest shares her experience in a patriarchal church and how it made it difficult for any change to occur. Speaking up for gender equality was often seen as causing trouble.

00:16:40 - The Threat of Speaking Up

The conversation delves into the fear that speaking up against the system poses for those in power. Drawing parallels to the Civil Rights Movement, the guest emphasizes the importance of raising questions and advocating for change, even if it disrupts the status quo.

00:18:22 - Marginalizing Voices of Change

The guest recounts the experience of a woman in her church who faced labeling and marginalization for pushing for gender equality. Many voices that advocate for change are squashed and silenced. It highlights the significance of those who can speak out about their experiences.

00:19:59 - The Importance of Advocacy

The conversation addresses the misconception that women should be content with their relatively better situation compared to others. The guest emphasizes the need for equality and justice, and how it is essential to dream and work towards a better world for women.

00:21:54 - The Impact of the Barbie Movie on Gender Equality

The guest reflects on the Barbie movie and its impact on addressing patriarchy directly. The powerful speech by America Ferrera's character resonated with many, highlighting the impossible expectations and the need for women to be empowered to be their

00:30:47 - Rethinking Leadership and Gender

The conversation explores the socialization of women and the need to redefine what a leader looks like in terms of gender and style. It emphasizes the importance of considering women's ambitions and assertiveness positively and reexamining assumptions about leadership and gender roles.

00:33:23 - Navigating Challenges in Evangelical Spaces

The discussion delves into the challenges faced by women in evangelical spaces and the difficulty of speaking up for equality. It suggests embracing agency, having conversations about experiences, and being open to the possibility of leaving if necessary to find spaces where women's gifts are valued.

00:36:25 - Dealing with Silencing and Marginalization

The conversation acknowledges the silencing and marginalization experienced by women who advocate for equality. It encourages women to find communities that take them seriously and honor their value. It reassures them that leaving an unsupportive environment is not walking away from faith and that God is present in the journey of change.

00:37:58 - Reflecting on Experiences and Finding Empowerment

Reflection on difficult experiences, even when women are aware that others have it worse, is deemed important. It highlights the value of processing and not being afraid to take seriously the things that feel wrong. Exploring resources from different thinkers and finding empowering expressions of faith is also recommended.

00:41:24 - Calls to Action for Male Pastors

Male pastors are urged to seek feedback from women in their congregations and

00:47:14 - The Importance of Women's Perspectives

The speaker acknowledges that exposure to new communities can sometimes stifle curiosity, especially in faith communities. She highlights the importance of women's perspectives, even those that contradict dominant viewpoints, in order to create a more equitable and wonderful world.

00:47:57 - Liz's Experience in Seminary

The speaker mentions Liz's book and her journey of trying to find her voice as a woman in seminary classes that were not always supportive. She emphasizes the need for women's opinions in churches, classrooms, and society at large.

00:48:47 - Book Recommendation: "Nice. Churchy Patriarchy"

The speaker recommends Liz's book, "Nice. Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism," and encourages listeners to read it for themselves. The book delves into issues of patriarchy and the importance of women's perspectives.

00:49:11 - Difference Maker Community and Deeper Conversations

The speaker invites listeners to join the Difference Maker community and announces that Liz will be a part of exclusive conversations there. The community offers additional content and a platform for deeper discussions on the topics addressed in the podcast.

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In the depths of despair, Naghmeh Panahi's story holds an unexpected twist that will leave you breathless. From the war-torn streets of her homeland to the foreign shores of America, she battled not just with oppression, but with her own sense of belonging. But it was when her husband faced imprisonment in Iran that her life took a dramatic turn, revealing a truth so shocking it will make you question everything. Prepare yourself for a journey of resilience, as Naghmeh's story unravels with a heart-wrenching open loop, leaving you eager to discover the strength she found to break free.

My special guest is Naghmeh Panahi

We are thrilled to rerelease this Best of 2023 episode with Naghmeh Panahi on the A World of Difference podcast. Naghmeh's story is one of incredible strength and resilience in the face of abuse. Having experienced domestic violence and spiritual abuse within religious institutions, she has become a beacon of hope for survivors. Her book, "I Didn't Survive: Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution, and Hidden Abuse," is a testament to her courage and determination. Naghmeh's journey from an immigrant Muslim girl from Iran to an advocate for women and children impacted by domestic abuse is truly inspiring. Through her foundation, Tahir Al Nisa, she is making a profound impact on the lives of those who have experienced similar traumas. We are honored to have Naghmeh share her story and insights on the podcast, as she empowers others to break free from abusive relationships and find their voice. Get ready for an episode filled with empowerment and inspiration.

In this episode, you will be able to:

Uncover the Hidden Abuse

Abuse takes many forms, and often, the emotional and verbal types remain hidden from sight. In religious institutions, the power dynamics can foster such mistreatment, which goes unnoticed or is deliberately neglected. Understanding the nuanced ways in which abuse can manifest is vital to identifying victims and offering them the necessary support and resources.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

Abusive governments or abusive people try to control you think they try to control weak people, but it's actually sometimes it's trying to restrain strong people... women are really strong and that's why the government is so focused on shutting them down. - Naghmeh Panahi

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Introduction

00:01:38 - Nagmeh's Background and Book

00:05:17 - Writing the Book to Help Others

00:07:06 - Immigrant Experience

00:11:41 - Identity as a Third Culture Kid

00:16:03 - Strength of Iranian Women

00:18:11 - Restriction and Fear in the Middle East

00:19:28 - Strong Women and Resistance to Oppression

00:20:53 - Inspiring Women in the Middle East

00:22:19 - Domestic Violence and Speaking Out

00:31:45 - Naghmeh's Hope for Franklin Graham

00:33:27 - Naghmeh's Thoughts on Franklin Graham

00:34:19 - The Title of Naghmeh's Book

00:38:20 - Naghmeh's Message to Those Experiencing Abuse

00:42:55 - Paying Attention to the Body's Signals

00:47:20 - The Sacrifice of Putting People First

00:47:43 - Finding Naghmeh and Her Work

00:48:21 - Gratitude for the Connection

00:49:06 - Naghmeh's Life as a Butterfly

00:50:43 - Calls to Action Based on Naghmeh's Story

Even when you have a strong force coming against you, whether it's government or it's a religious institution or whatever, you have to really be strengthened even more, be stronger to break through. - Naghmeh Panahi

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introduction

The host introduces the podcast episode and provides a trigger warning for the guest's discussion of abuse. Listeners are advised to prioritize their mental health while listening to the episode.

00:01:38 - Nagme's Background and Book

Nagme Panahi is introduced as a remarkable woman who has experienced various forms of abuse. Her book, "I Didn't Survive," details her journey of emerging whole after deception, persecution, and hidden abuse.

00:05:17 - Writing the Book to Help Others

Nagme shares that she wrote her book to help others who may be going through similar trials and to share her story of renewal and transformation through suffering.

00:07:06 - Immigrant Experience

Nagme discusses her experience as an immigrant from Iran, highlighting the challenges of adjusting to a new culture and feeling like she didn't fit in. She also reflects on the trauma of war and the limited resources in her home country.

00:11:41 - Identity as a Third Culture Kid

Nagme shares the difficulties of navigating her identity as a third culture kid, feeling neither fully Iranian nor fully American. She discusses the unique perspective and mindset that come with living between cultures.

00:16:03 - Strength of Iranian Women

The guest discusses the stereotypes and misconceptions about Iranian women, highlighting their strength and resilience. She shares stories of Iranian women breaking barriers and standing up against oppression.

00:18:11 - Restriction and Fear in the Middle East

The conversation shifts to the restrictions faced by women in the Middle East, particularly in Afghanistan. The guest emphasizes that these restrictions are a sign of fear from those in power towards strong women who may bring about change.

00:19:28 - Strong Women and Resistance to Oppression

The guest mentions several strong Iranian women who have stood up to oppressive governments and religious institutions. She highlights the importance of strength and resilience when facing challenges and how these women have become voices for change.

00:20:53 - Inspiring Women in the Middle East

The host shares her experiences meeting incredible women in the Middle East, including Malala, and hearing their stories of education and empowerment. She acknowledges the threat these women pose to those who want to suppress their voices.

00:22:19 - Domestic Violence and Speaking Out

The guest opens up about her experience of domestic violence from her husband, who was seen as a Christian hero. She discusses the challenges of speaking out and the strength she found within herself to set boundaries and break free from the abuse.

00:31:45 - Naghmeh's Hope for Franklin Graham

Naghmeh expresses her desire for Franklin Graham to use his platform to advocate for abuse survivors and bring awareness to the issue within the church. She hopes that he will repent of his harmful views and become an ally in the fight against abuse.

00:33:27 - Naghmeh's Thoughts on Franklin Graham

Naghmeh clarifies that while she doesn't currently like Franklin Graham, she doesn't hate him either. She believes that his way of thinking is harmful and hopes that he will change his perspective and become an advocate for abuse survivors.

00:34:19 - The Title of Naghmeh's Book

Naghmeh explains that the title of her book, "I Didn't Survive," reflects the transformation she went through in breaking free from cultural and religious expectations that silenced and oppressed women. She emerged as a new person with a deeper understanding of who God is and the power she possesses.

00:38:20 - Naghmeh's Message to Those Experiencing Abuse

Naghmeh urges anyone experiencing abuse, whether it's in a marriage, church, or any other institution, to prioritize their own well-being and get out of the toxic environment. She emphasizes that God values individuals more than institutions and encourages victims to trust their bodies and seek help.

00:42:55 - Paying Attention to the Body's Signals

Naghmeh highlights the importance of listening to one's body when it comes to recognizing abuse

00:47:20 - The Sacrifice of Putting People First

Naghmeh discusses the importance of prioritizing people and being willing to make sacrifices for them, even if it means losing everything. She emphasizes the simplicity of this concept while acknowledging the challenges it can present.

00:47:43 - Finding Naghmeh and Her Work

Naghmeh shares that she now has a website where people can find information about her and her work in the Middle East. She also mentions that her name can be searched on social media to access more information.

00:48:21 - Gratitude for the Connection

Lori expresses her gratitude for the opportunity to get to know Naghmeh and establish a friendship. She also acknowledges the vulnerability Naghmeh has shown through her writing and shares her appreciation for it.

00:49:06 - Naghmeh's Life as a Butterfly

Lori reflects on Naghmeh's transformation from a caterpillar to a butterfly, symbolizing her freedom and growth. She encourages listeners to find inspiration in Naghmeh's story and highlights the lessons embedded within her narrative.

00:50:43 - Calls to Action for 2024

Lori acknowledges that a story like Naghmeh's can lead us to want to make changes in our own lives whether it's in New Year's Resolutions, goals or saying "goodbye" to last year's ways and "hello" to this year's new ways.

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Join us as we dive into the hidden world of spiritual abuse within church communities, uncovering shocking revelations and the urgent need for justice. But what happens when the very institutions meant to provide solace and support become complicit in perpetuating harm? Tune in to find out what happens next.

If you're feeling frustrated and helpless because your efforts to stop abuse in your church or faith community are being ignored, then you are not alone! You may have already tried reporting the abuse to church leaders or authorities, only to see it swept under the rug or dismissed. Instead of seeing justice and accountability, you may be witnessing the perpetrators being protected and the victims being silenced. It's time to come together and take action to demand change and ensure that everyone in your community is safe and treated with respect.

My special guest is Johnna Harris

(Listen to part 1 of this two-part interview here.)

Johnna Harris, a dedicated advocate and co-host of the Bodies behind the Bus podcast, brings a wealth of experience and empathy to the conversation around spiritual abuse in church and faith communities. Her unwavering commitment to amplifying the voices of survivors and promoting awareness is truly commendable. With a unique blend of personal insight and professional dedication, Johnna's work is making a real impact in the lives of many. Her passion for fostering healing and understanding shines through in her thoughtful approach to advocacy, making her a valuable voice in the ongoing dialogue about supporting survivors and creating positive change within faith spaces.

In this episode, you will be able to:

Hear survivor stories

Listening to survivors' narratives is a powerful way of understanding the gravity and reality of spiritual abuse in faith communities. Each story offers a firsthand perspective that illuminates the complexity and nuance of this issue. It is through these narratives that we can become better allies, advocates, and agents of change within our communities.

Listen to Part 1 of this 2 part interview with Johnna Harris. If youu haven't heard part 1, listen to it here.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:00 - Introduction to Johnna Harris's advocacy work

00:04:02 - Trigger warning and self-care

00:08:47 - Impact of spiritual abuse on women's voices

00:11:45 - Healing journey and self-care

00:13:10 - Connection between Acts 29 and the SBC

00:15:16 - Sexual Abuse Scandals in the SBC

00:16:01 - Corruption Within the SBC

00:17:48 - Samantha Killary's Lawsuit

00:21:49 - Transparency with Cooperative Program Funds

00:30:42 - Hope for Change

00:33:33 - SBC's involvement in thwarting justice

00:35:23 - The role of good people in complicity

00:37:40 - Holding church leaders accountable

00:41:18 - Making wrongs right

00:43:38 - Taking action for justice

00:49:17 - The Power of Stories and Advocacy

00:49:42 - New Year's Resolution for Justice

00:50:22 - Invitation to Do Justice

00:51:05 - Join the Patreon Community

00:52:40 - Reflecting on the Year and Making a Difference

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:00 - Introduction to Johnna Harris's advocacy work

Johnna Harris discusses her advocacy work on behalf of Southern Baptist Convention and the Acts 29 network survivors, focusing on survivors of spiritual abuse themselves.

00:04:02 - Trigger warning and self-care

The host provides a trigger warning for the discussion on abuse and emphasizes the importance of self-care for those who have experienced religious trauma.

00:08:47 - Impact of spiritual abuse on women's voices

Johnna and Lori discuss the silencing of women's voices in some religious spaces, sharing their own experiences and the challenges they faced as women in leadership roles.

00:11:45 - Healing journey and self-care

Johnna shares her healing journey, including therapy and avoiding retraumatization in religious settings, highlighting the importance of self-care for survivors of spiritual abuse.

00:13:10 - Connection between Acts 29 and the SBC

The discussion delves into the connection between the Acts 29 network and the Southern Baptist Convention, shedding light on the lack of robust accountability structures within the SBC and its impact on survivors of spiritual abuse.

00:15:16 - Sexual Abuse Scandals in the SBC

Discussion on the handling of sexual abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) and the numerous lawsuits and scandals related to survivors coming forward.

00:16:01 - Corruption Within the SBC

The Guidepost report findings of corruption within the SBC in handling and reporting sexual abuse cases, with mention of multiple lawsuits in Kentucky.

00:17:48 - Samantha Killary's Lawsuit

Details about Samantha Killary's lawsuit, the entities involved, and the implication of the SBC's intervention potentially affecting other abuse survivors in Kentucky.

00:21:49 - Impact of Cooperative Program Funds

Highlighting the use of Cooperative Program funds for legal actions and the potential negative impact on abuse survivors if the Supreme Court in KY rules in favor of the SBC's stance.

00:30:42 - Hope for Change

Discussion on the challenges of bringing about accountability and change within the SBC and other western evangelical entities, expressing a desire for positive growth within churches.

00:33:33 - SBC's involvement in thwarting justice

Johnna discusses the potential impact of the Southern Baptist Convention's (SBC) amicus brief on the statute of limitations for second-party perpetrators. She highlights the potential consequences for survivors seeking justice and the disturbing reality of justice being thwarted by powerful entities.

00:35:23 - The role of good people in complicity

Johnna emphasizes the complicity of good people in allowing injustice to persist. She urges listeners to educate themselves and take action to hold leaders and organizations accountable for their actions, particularly in cases of abuse and cover-ups.

00:37:40 - Holding church leaders accountable

The conversation delves into the need for consistency in holding church leaders accountable to the standards they espouse. Johnna urges people to consider where their tithes and donations are directed, emphasizing the importance of transparency and responsible stewardship of financial contributions.

00:41:18 - Making wrongs right

The discussion emphasizes the importance of making wrongs right and pursuing justice, rather than succumbing to "himpathy." It calls for a collective effort to address spiritual abuse and hold leaders accountable for their actions, advocating for defunding the SBC as a potentially necessary course of action.

00:43:38 - Taking action for justice

Johnna encourages listeners to take action in various ways, including defunding the SBC legal efforts by designating offerings, seeking transparency in financial contributions, and advocating for abuse survivors. The conversation underscores the need for accountability and highlights the role of individuals

00:49:17 - The Power of Stories and Advocacy

Lori and Johnna emphasize the importance of hearing abuse survivors' stories in the SBC to understand the significance of advocating for justice. They encourage listeners to actively engage in advocacy efforts and share their ideas in a Patreon episode at www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference.

00:49:42 - New Year's Resolution for Justice

Lori encourages listeners to make New Year's resolutions focused on doing justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with God. She emphasizes the importance of actively participating in advocacy efforts within their circle of influence.

00:50:22 - Invitation to Do Justice

Lori invites followers of God to consider how they can do justice within their denominational and church homes. She encourages listeners to join their Patreon community for deeper discussions on advocacy and making a difference.

00:51:05 - Join the Patreon Community

Lori invites listeners to join their Patreon community, where they can access exclusive episodes and engage in conversations about making a difference in their respective spaces. She welcomes individuals from diverse religious backgrounds to share their perspectives.

00:52:40 - Reflecting on the Year and Making a Difference

Lori encourages listeners to reflect on the past year and consider what they want to stop, start, or continue doing. She invites them to connect with her on social media to share their reflections and discuss their plans for making a difference.

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Does the holiday season often leave you feeling overwhelmed and disconnected? Despite being told to simply keep busy and distracted, you still find yourself longing for a deeper sense of joy and connection. The constant hustle and bustle only leave you feeling exhausted and unfulfilled, longing for more meaningful experiences. It's time to explore a new approach that will bring you the peace and connection you've been craving.

My special guest is Leslie Leyland Fields

Leslie Leyland Fields is an internationally renowned teacher, speaker, and award-winning author of 14 books, including "Your Story Matters," "The Wonder Years," and "Crossing the Waters," which earned a Christianity Today Book award in Christian Living. With three graduate degrees in English, journalism, and an MFA in creative nonfiction, Leslie has extensive experience as a founding faculty member of Seattle Pacific University's MFA program. Her books have been translated into nine languages, and her essays have appeared in various publications, earning her several evangelical press awards. Leslie's latest work, "Radiant Birth: Advent Readings for a Bright Season," offers an engaging and unique perspective on the Advent season, making her a valuable guest for today's episode.

In this episode, you will be able to:

The significance of sharing extends beyond mere giving and receiving during the holiday season. As evidenced by Leslie's vision for her grandchildren's generation, sharing should be about expressing love, not just within family units, but extended to the larger communities. Sharing our stories, experiences, and acts of love can act as a beacon of light in a world needing hope and unity.

Exploring profound insights is a powerful way to understand the enigma of Advent. This can involve delving into the historical, personal, and global impacts of Jesus' birth, as Leslie Leyland Fields discusses in her book, Radiant Birth. Reading such works in the quiet of the dark winter months can bring a brighter perspective and provide refreshing light to our spirits.

Embracing the power of stillness allows each of us to discover and authentically experience the transformative Advent season. As Leslie suggests, even few moments of quietness each day, reading a thought-provoking book or poem, can create a space for connection with God and oneself, combating holiday overwhelm. Cultivating such moments of stillness can nourish our minds and hearts and help us establish meaningful holiday traditions with our families.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Navigating Difficult Emotions during the Holidays

00:04:34 - Writing Process and Book Selection

00:08:22 - Embracing the Mystery of Advent

00:11:39 - Impact of the Advent Book

00:17:23 - Embracing the Radiance of God's Love

00:17:53 - Overcoming Burnout in Church Culture

00:21:20 - Importance of Stillness and Self-Care

00:23:26 - Empowering People to Tell Their Stories

00:29:22 - Getting Started with Writing

00:31:13 - Meaningful Christmas Traditions

00:34:23 - Reflecting on Family Traditions and Love

00:35:44 - Intentional Tradition-Making

00:37:13 - Love Spreading Beyond Families

00:38:24 - Connecting with Leslie

Join international teacher and author Leslie Leyland Fields as she ignites a new tradition of finding light and love beyond our families this holiday season, inspiring us to create meaningful connections and joy amid darkness and challenges.

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Navigating Difficult Emotions during the Holidays

Lori acknowledges that the holidays can be a difficult time for those who have experienced loss, trauma, or abuse. She shares her personal experience of loss on December 26 and encourages listeners to seek help if needed.

00:04:34 - Writing Process and Book Selection

Leslie discusses the process of selecting literary readings, including poems and stories, for the advent book. The book is divided into three sections - Jesus Born in Bethlehem, Jesus Born in Us, and Jesus in Us for the World.

00:08:22 - Embracing the Mystery of Advent

Leslie explains that the book is not a traditional devotional, but rather a collection of readings that invite readers to experience their own profound moments and encounters with the birth of Jesus. She emphasizes the mystery and beauty of God taking on human flesh.

00:11:39 - Impact of the Advent Book

Leslie shares her hope that readers will engage with the book daily, immersing themselves in the radiance and wonder of the season. She encourages readers to use the book as a tool for reflection and meditation, allowing the radiance of Advent to become a part of them beyond the immediate season.

00:17:23 - Embracing the Radiance of God's Love

Leslie expresses her desire for the radiance of God's love to transcend the Advent season and become a part of readers' daily lives. She emphasizes the beauty of God's love and presence in all things

00:17:53 - Overcoming Burnout in Church Culture

Leslie Leyland Fields discusses the challenges of burnout culture in churches and the importance of finding stillness and quiet in the midst of busyness. She emphasizes the need for individuals to take quiet moments for themselves, especially during the Advent season.

00:21:20 - Importance of Stillness and Self-Care

The conversation shifts to the topic of self-care and finding stillness amidst the busyness of life. Leslie Leyland Fields shares her own experiences as a mother and highlights the significance of taking quiet moments to connect with God's love for us.

00:23:26 - Empowering People to Tell Their Stories

Leslie Leyland Fields discusses her philosophy of writing and her approach to coaching authors. She emphasizes the importance of empowering individuals to see the remarkable stories within them and to silence the voices of self-doubt and fear.

00:29:22 - Getting Started with Writing

Leslie Leyland Fields encourages aspiring writers to start by exploring their inner stories. She recommends her book "Your Story Matters" as a simple and profound guide to help individuals begin the writing process and tap into their unique perspectives.

00:31:13 - Meaningful Christmas Traditions

Leslie Leyland Fields shares her favorite Christmas tradition of having a special Christmas Eve dinner with her family. She describes the unique and intentional meals they share, emphasizing the importance of simple and meaningful traditions that bring families together.

00:34:23 - Reflecting on Family Traditions and Love

Leslie shares her childhood experience of not celebrating Christmas, leading her to intentionally create traditions with her family. She highlights the importance of love for one another and spreading it beyond the family unit.

00:35:44 - Intentional Tradition-Making

Leslie emphasizes the significance of intentional tradition-making, sharing her journey from a non-celebratory childhood to anchoring her family with meaningful traditions. Her vision and hope for the future generation are rooted in the four-letter word, love.

00:37:13 - Love Spreading Beyond Families

Leslie expresses her belief that love is not meant to be insular, but rather to bind families together and then propel them to spread love outward into the world. She finds joy in witnessing her children and grandchildren embody this love within their own families.

00:38:24 - Connecting with Leslie

Leslie invites listeners to visit her website, where they can find her writing and coaching services. She shares her experiences as a commercial fisherman in Alaska and encourages people to connect and say hello.

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In the world of religion, Johnna Harris was a shining example of faith and dedication. But behind the facade of her leadership, lies a heartbreaking tale of betrayal and emotional turmoil. As she unravels her journey, Johnna's raw and candid storytelling reveals the devastating impact of religious abuse on her life. But just when it seems like all hope is lost, a surprising turn of events leaves her standing at a crossroads, unsure of what the future holds.

My special guest is Johnna Harris

Johnna Harris serves as the co-host of the "Bodies Behind the Bus" podcast and is an advocate for survivors of religious abuse. Based on her personal experiences as a former staff member at a California church, Johnna actively engages in supporting survivors and recently specifically involved in supporting survivors seeking justice within the Southern Baptist Convention environment. Her involvement with Sacred Wilderness and her consistent presence on social media platforms demonstrates her commitment to listening to survivors' voices and amplifying their stories. With a deep understanding of religious abuse and its devastating effects, Johnna's work reflects her dedication to promoting healing and advocating for change in religious abuse contexts.

I fully relate to and understand why someone wouldn't go there and would say, it's very relatable when you start thinking about Donald Trump. To me, when you think about how the church in America, western evangelicals, really latched on to Donald Trump and said, this is our guy. This is who we're standing behind. This is who God put in office. This is God's candidate. And a lot of us started saying, wait, has anything you've ever said to me been true? - Johnna Harris

In this episode, you will be able to:

Discover the healing power

Healing from religious abuse is an essential aspect of reclaiming your life. This healing process often includes seeking professional help, such as the online therapy platform BetterHelp mentioned by host Lori Adams-Brown. Harnessing the healing power by taking care of oneself, working through past trauma, and seeking justice for the injustice committed can be an empowering experience that is crucial in a survivor's journey.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

But the survivor community is coming out of this religious context that's very fundamentalist. And we are definitely playing that out on each other now, outside of that, and I don't think it has to be that way. I think we can choose a better way and I think we can learn nuance. - Johnna Harris

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Introduction to Johnna Harris

00:03:15 - Trigger Warning and Two-Part Episode

00:07:25 - Complementarianism vs. Egalitarianism

00:14:59 - Investigation by Baptist Network

00:16:10 - Founding Bodies Behind the Bus Podcast

00:17:05 - The Complexity of Abuse and Loss of Community

00:19:42 - Betrayal and Community Disbelief

00:22:55 - Faith and Integrity

00:26:49 - Wounded Healers and Nuance

00:34:08 - Johnna's Advocacy Journey

00:35:03 - Johnna's Concerns and Calls to Action

00:36:33 - Using Influence for Good

00:37:55 - Closing Remarks and Call to Action

I'm learning that my voice is okay, like, I can be myself. - Johnna Harris

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introduction to Johnna Harris

Lori introduces Jonna Harris, the co-host of Bodies behind the Bus podcast, who shares her experiences of spiritual abuse in a religious environment and her advocacy for survivors.

00:03:15 - Trigger Warning and Two-Part Episode

Lori provides a trigger warning for the discussion of spiritual abuse in a religious environment and announces a two-part episode with Jonna, diving into Jonna's experiences and advocacy work.

00:07:25 - Complementarianism vs. Egalitarianism

Johnna explains the difference between complementarianism and egalitarianism in the evangelical church and how it influenced her role as a female worship leader.

00:14:59 - Investigation by Baptist Network

Johnna describes the absurd investigation conducted by a group of pastors from the Pacific church network, which ultimately led to her firing and the mass exodus of the church congregation.

00:16:10 - Founding Bodies Behind the Bus Podcast

Johnna shares how she started the Bodies Behind the Bus podcast after receiving an overwhelming response to a tweet about her experience, highlighting stories of abuse within the Western evangelical church.

00:17:05 - The Complexity of Abuse and Loss of Community

Johnna discusses the complexity of abuse, including gaslighting, grooming, and the loss of community as a survivor. She highlights the additional trauma of being discredited in a church abuse situation and the pain of losing the community she had built.

00:19:42 - Betrayal and Community Disbelief

Johnna shares the heartbreaking experience of being empathized with but also told that there are "two sides" to her story, which made her feel personally attacked and misunderstood. She discusses the pain of losing the community's support and the disbelief survivors often face.

00:22:55 - Faith and Integrity

Johnna reflects on her faith and how it has been tested by the actions of religious leaders. She emphasizes the importance of seeing people who claim Jesus walking in integrity and character, despite the challenges and trauma she has faced.

00:26:49 - Wounded Healers and Nuance

Johnna discusses the issues within the survivor community, where some individuals reenact their traumas onto others instead of healing. She emphasizes the need to embrace nuance and growth as a community and the impact of fundamentalist beliefs on the survivor community's dynamics.

00:34:08 - Johnna's Advocacy Journey

Lori introduces Jonna Harris and acknowledges her advocacy for abuse survivors in religious spaces. Jonna's personal experience has shaped her into an advocate, and Lori highlights the importance of her voice in bringing about change.

00:35:03 - Johnna's Concerns and Calls to Action

Lori highlights Jonna's concerns about issues in the Southern Baptist convention and her calls to action for change. Jonna's advocacy work focuses on centering survivors, seeking justice, and mobilizing others to join in the effort for change.

00:36:33 - Using Influence for Good

Lori emphasizes the impact of using one's influence and platform for advocacy, using Jonna as an example. She encourages listeners to prioritize self-care and extends an invitation to join in for the next episode to learn more about Johnna's involvement and calls to action.

00:37:55 - Closing Remarks and Call to Action

Lori wraps up by urging listeners to take care of themselves and acknowledges their efforts in making a difference. She invites them to tune in for the next episode to delve deeper into Johnna's initiatives, emphasizing the importance of self-care and collective action.

For those who are different and want to make a difference

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Does the experience of abuse within religious communities sound familiar to you? Have you been told to simply pray it away and forgive without addressing the pain and trauma you've endured? The weight of carrying this burden alone can be overwhelming, leaving you feeling unheard and powerless. But there is hope for healing and empowerment beyond these ineffective actions.

Brave survivor turned advocate, Norma Braga Venâncio, exposes the export of abuse within Brazil's faith-based spaces, sparking a courageous fight for healing and justice against the very institutions meant to protect.

In the depths of her devotion, she never anticipated the painful truth that awaited her. As she embarked on a journey of healing and self-discovery, she uncovered a reality that shattered her perception of her faith community. The unexpected twist in her story will leave you captivated and yearning for resolution. Join us as we unravel the gripping tale of Norma Braga Venâncio's courageous journey.

My special guest is Norma Braga Venâncio

Norma Braga Venâncio, a theologian, image consultant, and author hailing from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, is a remarkable figure in the domain of women's empowerment and theological discourse. Her profound understanding of the impact of abuse on personal theology, self-esteem, and relationships, backed by her own experiences as an abuse survivor, amplifies the authenticity and depth of her work. Norma's commitment to shedding light on the sensitive intersection of faith and abuse, coupled with her warmth and compassion, makes her an invaluable resource for those seeking healing and empowerment. Through her compelling writing and speaking, Norma has emerged as a guiding light, offering solace and insight to survivors of abuse within religious communities in Brazil and beyond.

In this episode, you will be able to:

Understanding the impact

The fallout of abuse is multidimensional, touching not only the survivor's physical space but also their mental, emotional, and spiritual health. Norma's personal journey of navigating the aftermath of abuse offers a raw insight into the lasting damage. Recognizing the need for informed support, she underscores the critical need for both empathetic understanding and professional therapeutic channels for survivors to embark on their path to recovery.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

Read books about abuse, listen to stories, and let yourself be educated, because it's very important. Abuse is something that you have to be educated. It's not simple to understand. - Norma Braga Venâncio

Embracing a holistic approach

Addressing abuse necessitates a comprehensive approach that considers all facets of human existence, including the cognitive, emotional, and aesthetic dimensions. Norma, amalgamating her theological and image consultation backgrounds, proposes a new paradigm. It includes healing from trauma, restoring self-image, instilling a sense of worth, and reclaiming one's identity as a significant and valued member of the community.

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Trigger Warning and Sponsorship Message

00:02:29 - Introduction to Norma Braga Venâncio

00:04:40 - Norma's Personal Journey with Abuse and Theology

00:09:14 - Challenging Traditional Theology and Addressing Abuse

00:15:46 - Impact of Abuse on Women's Perception and Faith

00:21:52 - Neocolonialist Aspect of Christianity

00:23:43 - Theological Insight on Self-Esteem

00:26:43 - Integrating Theology and Image Consultation

00:31:06 - Dangers of Religious Power

00:37:41 - Supporting Survivors of Abuse

00:44:34 - The Church Two Movement in Brazil

00:46:16 - Impact of Abuse on Survivors

00:47:07 - Exposing Abusive Pastors

00:48:53 - The Work of Justice

00:52:55 - Exclusive Interviews and Community

Don't try to save the marriage when you see the wife is being destroyed. Save the wife first. - Norma Braga Venâncio

Uncovering the hidden truth

Abuse within religious communities often remains concealed due to the shroud of respect, trust, and reverence surrounding these institutions. In this episode, Norma Braga Venancio courageously delves into the unspoken issues, revealing the uncomfortable realities. She challenges the status quo, inspiring others to confront hidden truths that could potentially be harbingers of abuse thus, advocating for transparency in religious realms.

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Trigger Warning and Sponsorship Message

Lori gives a trigger warning about the discussion of childhood sexual abuse and introduces the episode's sponsor, Betterhelp, before sharing her personal experience with therapy.

00:02:29 - Introduction to Norma Braga Venâncio

Lori introduces Norma Braga Venâncio, highlighting her background as a theologian, image consultant, and abuse survivor. She praises Norma's knowledge, warmth, and expertise in addressing the intersection of theology, self-image, and abuse.

00:04:40 - Norma's Personal Journey with Abuse and Theology

Norma shares her personal experience of realizing her own abuse after attending a conference by Diane Langberg in 2015. She discusses the impact of abuse on her perception of self and faith, leading her to integrate theology and image consultancy to help women.

00:09:14 - Challenging Traditional Theology and Addressing Abuse

Norma discusses her shift in speaking to women about biblical femininity after realizing the impact of abuse. She reflects on the challenges she faced in her community after deciding to publicly address the issue of abuse and pastoral malpractice.

00:15:46 - Impact of Abuse on Women's Perception and Faith

Norma delves into the effects of abuse on a woman's self-perception and her relationship with faith. She emphasizes the need for a theology of image concerning women, highlighting the cultural influence of neopuritanism and its impact on Christian women's

00:21:52 - Neocolonialist Aspect of Christianity

Norma discusses the neocolonialist aspect of Christianity and the impact of exporting cultural aspects to South America, particularly Brazil. She emphasizes the importance of embracing beauty and art in the gospel message.

00:23:43 - Theological Insight on Self-Esteem

Norma delves into her theological research on idolatry, pride, and self-esteem. She emphasizes the significance of a positive self-image and its relationship to abuse, challenging traditional theological perspectives.

00:26:43 - Integrating Theology and Image Consultation

Norma discusses her approach to integrating theology and image consultation to help survivors of abuse rebuild their self-image. She emphasizes the importance of engaging both the left and right brain for healing.

00:31:06 - Dangers of Religious Power

Norma highlights the dangers of religious power and the need for awareness within religious communities. She urges individuals to learn from survivors' stories and educate themselves about abuse to better support survivors.

00:37:41 - Supporting Survivors of Abuse

Norma provides practical advice for supporting survivors of abuse, emphasizing the importance of prioritizing the well-being of the survivor over preserving the marriage. She encourages learning from survivors' stories and educating religious leaders about abuse.

00:44:34 - The Church Two Movement in Brazil

The conversation starts with a discussion about the #ChurchTwo movement in Brazil and the hope for beauty to emerge from the ashes.

00:46:16 - Impact of Abuse on Survivors

The impact of abuse on survivors, including the difficulty in processing trauma and the importance of speaking out and preventing abuse, is highlighted.

00:47:07 - Exposing Abusive Pastors

The discussion shifts to the work of a journalist in the United States who has exposed abusive pastors, and how this has impacted awareness in Brazil.

00:48:53 - The Work of Justice

The importance of justice, restoration, and reconciliation in addressing abuse, and the need for faith-based spaces to be places of healing and protection, is emphasized.

00:52:55 - Exclusive Interviews and Community

The host encourages listeners to join the difference maker community for exclusive interviews and deeper conversations about making a difference.

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