Yascha Mounk and Anne Applebaum discuss the new tools autocrats use to stay in power.

Anne Applebaum is a staff writer for The Atlantic and a Senior Fellow of the SNF Agora Institute at Johns Hopkins University. Her books include Red Famine: Stalin’s War on Ukraine and Iron Curtain: The Crushing of Eastern Europe. Her latest book is Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want to Run the World.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Anne Applebaum discuss how dictators use the system of international finance to maintain power and thwart regime change; how democracies can reform themselves internally to better resist authoritarian infiltration; and why autocratic regimes tend to be hard yet brittle.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

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