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Jon and I go way back to the early days of the marriage movement and before. He’s currently a senior fellow at Brookings and a contributor editor at The Atlantic. He’s written many landmark books, including Kindly Inquisitors, The Constitution of Knowledge (which we discussed on the pod in 2021), and Cross Purposes (which we covered last year). His new essay in The Atlantic, “Yes, It’s Fascism,” is a must-read.

And this episode is, if you don’t mind me saying so, a must-listen. One of the best conversations I’ve yet had on the Dishcast. Jon is always lucid and fair and thereby chilling.

For two clips of our convo — on the glorification of violence by Trump and his officials, and the cowardice of mainstream conservatives — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: Trump smashing norms; his vile indecency; his early rallies; reveling in war crimes; suing everyone; the “mean tweets” defense; cultural degeneracy in America; the need for party gatekeeping; blood-and-soil nationalism; Plato on tyrants; Stephen Miller’s “iron laws”; the Zelensky meeting and “having no cards”; the assassination attempt on Trump; the reprehensible Randy Fine; ICE using white nationalist anthems to recruit; anonymous masked agents; the Pretti and Good killings; the racial element of ICE roundups; the Somali fraud scandal; the over-politicization of DoJ; the two legal systems under the Nazis; Carl Schmitt; the blanket pardon for all Jan 6-ers; Vance meeting with AfD; Heritage Americans; birthright citizenship; Greenland; Venezuela; Christian nationalism; evangelical loyalty to Trump; his Board of Peace; the vandalism of DOGE; Vought’s evil genius; the East Wing demolition; violent threats against moderate Republicans; the woke playing right into Trump’s hands; and fears that he will manipulate the midterms.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, Zaid Jilani on the Dems, Derek Thompson on abundance, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com

Kevin spent 15 years as a writer and reporter for National Review, worked as a theater critic at The New Criterion, and had a long career in local newspapers. He’s currently the national correspondent at The Dispatch and a writer in residence at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. He’s the author of many books, including Big White Ghetto: Dead Broke, Stone-Cold Stupid, and High on Rage in the Dank Woolly Wilds of the “Real America.”

An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of our convo — on the arc from the Tea Party to Trump, and now his Greenland travesty — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: growing up in Lubbock with working-class, adoptive parents; playing football for the worst 5A team in Texas and joking with Dubya about it; starting journalism as a teenager; Bill Buckley a big influence; working for newspapers in India; how neoliberalism lifted untold millions out of poverty; the prosperity of the ‘90s; Karl Rove and “deficits don’t matter”; quitting the GOP over Arlen Specter; joining NR in 2008; TARP and bailouts; covering the Tea Party rallies; the Constitution checking human nature; Pat Buchanan; Ross Perot; Rick Santorum; the demonization of Obama; the pathologies of working-class whites; Christian apologists of Trump; mass migration and multiculturalism; masked ICE agents; Trump and celebrity culture; the Nobel hissy fit over Greenland; the tariff insanity; the bond market; Bessent’s propaganda; right-wingers in Europe turning on Trump; Vance and Cruz bending the knee; Jan 6 and Mike Pence; MTG’s conversion; Musk’s accomplishments; Trump defunding science in higher ed; Rahm Emanuel; when Kevin was cancelled by The Atlantic; when both of us were vilified by Jeff Goldberg in a townhall; and taking Matt Stone to Bear Week in Ptown.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jeffery Toobin on the pardon power, Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, Derek Thompson on the Dems and abundance, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com

Charlie is a journalist and podcaster. From 1993 to 2016, he hosted a conservative talk show on WTMJ in Milwaukee. He was also the editor of Right Wisconsin, the editor-in-chief of The Bulwark, and a commentator on MSNBC. He recently went fully independent with his own substack, “To the Contrary” — subscribe! The author of many books, the latest was 2017’s How the Right Lost Its Mind.

An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of our convo — on the Trump admin’s soulless response to the ICE killings, and if the GOP is starting to turn on Trump — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: growing up in a contrarian liberal home; his dad a journalist prof who ran Eugene McCarthy’s 1968 campaign in Wisconsin; Charlie converting to Catholicism in college; TS Eliot’s influence on his faith; writing his first book based on his dad’s essay against academia; getting into talk radio in the early years; the Limbaugh effect; the MSM disdain over talk radio; my early campaign for marriage equality reaching Charlie’s show; the lost culture of healthy debate; Gingrich’s contempt for the opposition; Vince Foster; Bush discrediting conservatism; the demonization of Obama; the failure of GOP gatekeepers; both parties embracing mass migration; “The Flight 93 Election”; the groups controlling the Dems; Biden empowering Trump on immigration; the Fox News fallacy; the anti-Semite card with respect to Israel and the settlements; Gaza; the war in Ukraine; the ICE killing in Minneapolis; JD’s soulless presser; the indecency of Matt Walsh and Megyn Kelly; the threats to Greenland; the persecution of Jerome Powell; civil war rhetoric; the Caribbean boats and Maduro’s ouster; our Viking foreign policy; Cardinal Dolan embracing MAGA; Pope Leo replacing Dolan; tariffs as protection money; the abuse of the pardon; ICE recruitment ramping up; and how dogs are the best people.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Kevin Williamson on the devolution of the GOP, Jeffery Toobin on the pardon power, Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com

Claire is an American novelist, essayist, and journalist living in Paris. She’s the editor-in-chief of The Cosmopolitan Globalist — subscribe! — and the author of many books, including There Is No Alternative: Why Margaret Thatcher Matters, and the novel Loose Lips.

An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of our convo — on the US returning to the Monroe Doctrine via Venezuela, and if Rubio is gunning for Cuba next — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: Claire’s grandpa fleeing Nazi Germany and joining the French Foreign Legion; the new movie Nuremberg; her mom a world-class cellist; Claire raised in California; seeing me debate at Oxford; my 1988 hatchet job on Ben Sherwood; our mutual love of Thatcher and how she wielded femininity; getting the Iraq War wrong; Trump increasingly looking senile; Stephen Miller’s fascism; Michael Anton and the new National Security Strategy; debating the war in Ukraine; Russia’s threats to Europe; NATO and defense spending; the growing isolationism of Americans; conspiracy theories; AI slop; Trump’s threats over Greenland; resource extraction; the Taiwan question; nuclear proliferation and A House of Dynamite; the irrelevant Congress; the poison of the identitarian left; Tom Holland’s Dominion; Keir Starmer less popular than Prince Andrew; migrants in France; the last gasps of Macron; AfD and Reform; the tariff war; and the new McCarthyism.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Charlie Sykes on the GOP ditching conservatism, Jason Willick on trade, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com

Laura Field is a writer and political theorist who specializes in far-right populist intellectualism in the US. She’s currently a Scholar in Residence at American University, a Senior Advisor for the Illiberalism Studies Program at GW, and a nonresident fellow with Brookings. Her new book is Furious Minds: The Making of the MAGA New Right. We bonded over some of the right’s wackier innovations, and differed over how far the left has also slid into illiberalism.

An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of our convo — on the New Right’s “post-constitutional moment,” and the war on the civil service — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: growing up in Alberta; losing a parent at a very young age; Plato an early inspiration; growing tired of the Straussians; the decline of religion under liberalism; Locke; Rousseau; Nietzsche; Fukuyama; the resurgence of the illiberal left and illiberal right; the Claremont Institute and Harry Jaffa; Jaffa’s extreme homophobia and hatred of divorce; Allan Bloom; Lincoln fulfilling the Founding; Hobbes; the role of virtue in a republic; Machiavelli; Michael Anton’s “Flight 93 Election”; John Eastman and “Stop the Steal”; Curtis Yarvin and The Cathedral; Adrian Vermeule’s Common Good Constitutionalism; Catholic conversion; Pope Leo; Obergefell, debating Harvey Mansfield over marriage; Woodrow Wilson’s expansion of the state; Thatcher and Reagan slimming it down; the pros and cons of technocratic experts; DOGE vs federal workers; “queer” curricula and the 1619 Project; edge-lords; Bronze Age Pervert and pagan masculinity; Fuentes and Carlson; and debating the dangers of wokeness.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Claire Berlinski on America’s retreat from global hegemony, Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, and Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com

Arthur is an academic and writer. The former president of the American Enterprise Institute, he’s a professor at Harvard Business School and the Kennedy School, where he teaches courses on leadership and happiness. The author of 13 books — including the 2023 bestseller he co-authored with Oprah Winfrey: Build the Life You Want — his latest is The Happiness Files, a curated collection from his “How to Build a Life” column at The Atlantic. He’s also the host of the “How to Build a Happy Life” podcast.

An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of our convo — how to prevent Trump from wrecking your mood, and how to open up your right brain — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: raised in Seattle by an artist mom and mathematician dad; converting to Catholicism as a teen; his early career as a French horn player; meeting his Spanish wife at a young age — and not speaking the same language; the risks that immigrants take; the British aversion to striving; walking the Camino de Santiago; his mother’s struggle with depression her whole life; how half of your happiness level is genetic; Charles Murray on religion; near-death experiences; Burke; Emerson; Oakeshott; animal impulse vs moral aspiration; Nicomachean Ethics; success as a false siren; Spinoza; our obsession with screens; the AI explosion; time management; the Daily Dish and my burnout in 2015; silent meditation retreats; the happiness of having a dog; Arthur’s work with the Dalai Lama; Buddhist vs Christian suffering; my deepest fear; my HIV test; the importance of failure for strivers; Stoicism; psychedelics; the Sabbath; the denialism over death; and how change is the only thing we can count on.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Laura Field on the intellectuals of Trumpism, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, and Claire Berlinski on America’s retreat from global hegemony. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com

Simon is a clinical psychologist who writes about the connections between “Narcissism, Trauma, Fame, and Power” — the name of his substack. He has over 20 years experience in the field of treatment of personality disorders and complex PTSD — the field of psychology in which narcissism is most invoked. We talked about what narcissism is, healthy and unhealthy; and we discuss some famous narcissists — Charlie Chaplin, John Lennon, Hitler, Churchill — and the childhood patterns they have in common. Then of course you-know-who, our Malignant Narcissist-In-Chief.

For three clips of our convo — how narcissism is formed in childhood, my own struggles with it, and when narcissism turns malignant — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: growing up in Birmingham; his mom a social worker and his dad a probation officer; Simon working in prison psych units; personality disorders vs mental illness; the Big Five traits; bipolarism; Freud and trauma; cold parenting; the Best Little Boy in the World syndrome; the coping strategies of narcissists; Sly Stallone; Norma Desmond; the benefits of narcissism for society; John Lennon’s violent bullying of others; Churchill’s childhood wounds; his psychic similarities with Hitler; Charlie Chaplin and sex trafficking; Trump’s sadism from a very young age; his nonstop superlatives; his 2020 denialism; his retribution crusade; how Obama’s narcissism is different than Trump’s; the new interview with Susie Wiles; the new Diddy documentary; Nietzsche’s Übermensch; social media as a playground for narcissism; the love-bombing of Trump’s 2016 rallies; his empty marriage to Melania; Epstein; and the danger of Trump’s psyche when allies like MTG turn on him.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Arthur Brooks on the science of happiness, Laura Field on the intellectuals of Trumpism, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, and Claire Berlinksi on America’s retreat from global hegemony. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com

Shadi is a Washington Post columnist and a senior fellow at Georgetown University’s Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding. He runs a substack with Damir Marusic called Wisdom of Crowds, and his new book is The Case for American Power. It’s the third time Shadi has been on the Dishcast. We hashed out the National Security Strategy and the future of US leadership in the world, if any.

For two clips of our convo — on Bush’s idealism leading to anarchy in Iraq, and whether Trump’s amorality is stabilizing the Middle East — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: Shadi raised with a mixed identity (American/Muslim/Arab); both parents from Egypt where he spent summers; the reinvention of immigrants; the peace and prosperity of the ‘90s; our innocence shattered on 9/11; external and internal jihad; religion in public life; the Koran; blasphemy laws in the UK; Charles Taylor and the loss of enchantment; political cults like MAGA and SJW; Deneen and other post-liberals; Obama’s realism in the Mideast; the Arab Spring; Islam’s tension with liberalism; how Israel undermined Obama; the settlements; Gaza; Muslim views of women and gays in the West; the US intervening in Bosnia, Kosovo, and the Persian Gulf; oikophobia; elites opening up China and creating a rival; Taiwan; Russia after the USSR; the invasion of Georgia and Crimea; the Syrian war and refugee crisis; the war in Ukraine; Vance in Munich; and Trump’s pressure on NATO to arm itself.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Simon Rogoff on the narcissism of pols and celebrities (from Diddy to Churchill to Trump), Laura Field on the intellectuals of Trumpism, Arthur Brooks on the science of happiness, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, and Jason Willick on trade and conservatism. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com

George is a journalist and novelist. He was a long-time staff writer at The New Yorker, now a staff writer at The Atlantic. He’s the author of 10 books, including The Unwinding: An Inner History of the New America — which won the National Book Award — and Our Man: Richard Holbrooke and the End of the American Century. His new novel is called The Emergency. It’s a parable of our polarized times — and a deeply unsettling one. We had this conversation the afternoon after I finished the book, and, as you’ll see, it really affected me emotionally.

For two clips of our convo — on the clarity of Orwell’s writing, and the savior complex of the woke — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: raised by two Stanford professors; his dad accused of fascism by his leftist students and red-baited by the right; his dad’s stroke and subsequent suicide at a young age; George’s time in the Peace Corps; how Orwell’s Homage to Catalonia “saved me”; entering journalism at 40; reporting in Iraq; Orwell’s contempt for elites; Auden and Spender; the ideologies of intellectuals; the young turning on their elders; the summer of 2020; Camus’ La Peste; January 6; Orwell’s bigotries; his love for the countryside and common decency; Animal Farm; Nineteen Eighty-Four; Hitchens; utopianism; Nietzsche and slave morality; Fukuyama and boredom; the collapse of religion; intra-elite competition; Mamdani; the Gaza protests; virtue signaling; struggle sessions; mobs on social media; the loss of gatekeepers; the queer takeover of the gay rights movement; the brutality of meritocracy; Nick Fuentes; Trump’s multi-racial win; his Cabinet picks as trolling; the utter capitulation of Vance; Haidt and smartphones; and our post-literate democracy.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Shadi Hamid in defense of US interventionism, Simon Rogoff on the narcissism of pols, Arthur Brooks on the science of happiness, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right, and Jason Willick on trade and conservatism. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com

Michel is a human rights lawyer and author. He’s currently a lecturer at Columbia Law School, where he teaches national security law and jurisprudence. He’s also a contributing editor at Lawfare. His latest book is The Light of Battle: Eisenhower, D-Day, and the Birth of the American Superpower — an accessible, racy account of the run-up to D-Day, along with fascinating snapshots of his entire career.

For two clips of our convo — why FDR picked Eisenhower to orchestrate D-Day, and why he’s the antithesis of Trump — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: Michel raised by a single mom in Allentown who became an Allentown DA; his scholarship to Oxford for computational linguistics; his work on human rights and defending Gitmo detainees; John Adams and due process; the Dish’s coverage of torture; the ways Eisenhower was misunderstood; his self-effacement; his religious pacifist parents; his abusive dad; his Horatio Alger story; Kansas conservatism; the knee injury that ended his football stardom at West Point; the scandal that nearly ended his career early on; the scarlet fever that killed his son; his early friendship with Patton; his intellectual mentor Fox Conner; Ike a protege of MacArthur until they soured on each other; his moderation and suspicion of ideology; his workaholism and stoicism; Pearl Harbor; his uneasy relationship with FDR; unexpectedly picked over George Marshall to lead D-Day; his knack for building consensus; winning over Monty and the other Brits; Churchill’s antics and his opposition to a Normandy landing; haunted by Gallipoli; the Atlantic Wall; Rommel; shouting matches at the Cairo Conference; Ike’s quiet charisma; the alleged affair with his Irish driver Kay Summersby; and how the weather nearly ruined D-Day.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: George Packer on his Orwell-inspired novel, Shadi Hamid on US power abroad, Simon Rogoff on the narcissism of pols, Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right, and Arthur Brooks on the science of happiness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].