Ross Douthat of the New York Times joins Jonah Goldberg to ruminate over the resilience of American democracy, Pope Leo XIV, postliberalism, and Douthat’s recent conversation with Peter Thiel. Plus: their thoughts on wokeness, the Antichrist, and performative apocalypticism.

Show Notes:
—Ross Douthat's podcast, "Interesting Times"
—Ross Douthat's book, Grand New Party: How Republicans Can Win the Working Class and Save the American Dream
—Jonah’s Los Angeles Times column, “Elon Musk’s America Party is a long shot"

The Remnant is a production of The Dispatch, a digital media company covering politics, policy, and culture from a non-partisan, conservative perspective. To access all of The Dispatch’s offerings—including Jonah’s G-File newsletter, regular livestreams, and other members-only content—click here.

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