Historian and bestselling author Rutger Bregman joins us to discuss his dramatic shift from believing humans are fundamentally selfish to championing a radically optimistic view of human nature. We chart his evolution across three books: "Humankind," which establishes his optimistic perspective; "Utopia for Realists," advocating bold policies based on our potential for good; and his latest, "Moral Ambition," which calls on people to stop wasting their careers and start transforming the world for the better.

We strongly recommend you read Rutger's new book, Moral Ambition. It's a certified banger.

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About the hosts:

Thom and Aidan left boring, stable careers in law and tech to found ⁠FarmKind⁠, a donation platform that helps people be a part of the solution to factory farming — regardless of their diet. While the podcast isn’t about animal welfare, it’s inspired by their daily experience grappling with a fundamental question: Why do people so rarely change their minds, even when confronted with compelling evidence? This curiosity drives their exploration of intellectual humility and the complex factors that enable (or prevent) meaningful belief change.