Artfully Told

In today's episode, I welcome Christopher John Garcia! Chris has had an amazing career journey as a museum curator and historian for the Computer History Museum, as well as podcaster and painter, and he talks about everything from AI-generated art to his podcast that discusses pieces of artwork in under three minutes. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of one of Chris' original pieces of artwork!)

Get in touch with Christopher John Garcia: https://www.facebook.com/JohnnyEponymous | https://www.instagram.com/johnnyeponymous/

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 52 - Christopher John Garcia

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen:  Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to have as my guest today, Christopher John Garcia, who is a curator, historian, and podcaster, and I'm just so excited to chat with him all about art and all the different ways that he has engaged with art and that he's currently still doing. And so thank you so much for being here, Chris. I really, really appreciate it.

[00:01:00] Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, thanks so much for having me always glad to chat.

[00:01:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. If it's about art, I'm in.

[00:01:05]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Well again, thanks for being here. And I would just love if you would share maybe a little bit about your background, how you got involved in your various art forms, and maybe a little of where you are today, too.

[00:01:21] Christopher John Garcia: Cool. Well, it's started long, long ago. 1999. I became a curator at the Computer History Museum and my focus was on computer graphics, music and art with an emphasis on early computer art. So 1950s through about 1980. And by going into that, you know, I had a little bit of an art history background. I minored in it in college and I've always been an art nerd. And I ended up starting a couple of podcasts that were actually centered around early computer art. One was called " Engineers and Enthusiasts," which is on a hiatus as soon as I can find all my files. But the second one is a "Three-Minute Modernist," which is, I take a single artwork usually, and I break it down in three minutes as sort of a, an emotional impact statement is what I do in three minutes, which can be a lot harder for big pieces than little you'd be surprised. But yeah, and so all of that. Then for some reason, I ended up staying home a lot in 2020, and I decided, you know, maybe I should become a painter. And so I, you know, I had never painted before. And so I decided, well fine. And I started doing a lot of my own paintings, which are semi-abstract expressionists works. What I usually do is I just squeeze paint directly onto paper, put another piece on top of it and then peel them apart. And then I'll do this with several sheets. So it's sort of a combination printing, painting methodology. But yeah, so it's, I'm your basic all around art nerd.

[00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Okay. Well, I am so excited to hear more about all of the different things, but especially the podcast. I'm so intrigued by that concept. I love it. What a challenge too, so kudos to you. But yeah. Okay. So breaking down artwork and sort of talking about it and having the constraint of three minutes, first of all, where did that idea come from? And then I guess second of all, how hard is that?

[00:03:16]Christopher John Garcia: Well, the idea actually came from a Doctor Who podcast. There is a Doctor Who podcast called "Two-Minute Time Lord." And it is it takes a Doctor Who episode or a topic surrounding Dr. Who and does a two minute episode. That's basically what you would say around the water cooler. And I figured, you know what? If it's good enough for the goose, it's good enough to be stolen by the gander. And I decided to take that concept and apply it to art because one, art has sort of discreet chunks. And I was seeing a lot of works that were-- I wouldn't say small-- but they were works that you could sort of come up with at least a nugget that you could expand on in for a couple of minutes without problem.

[00:04:03] And I learned that by looking at a discreet portion, it gave you one, a chance to really sort of look across the board. You could look at one piece from various areas, but two, it allowed you to go really fast. And so my proof of concept was a good five episodes before I released anything and realized, yeah, this will work. And then I realized that if I kept it to just modern and contemporary art, it would allow me to single out one area instead of going all the way around the world, having to deal with all the things, 'cause once you get into the more realist stuff and the movement and the genre works, you kind of get, you have to go longer. But with the contemporary stuff, you could more deal with the impact of the work on particularly, in this case, me and how it emotionally triggered sensations and feelings and take it sort of a little bit out of a, sort of a more academic realm and into a realm of art appreciation that I really love. Things like, you know, Sister Wendy, for example,  used to be a favorite of mine, but there's not really one of those for contemporary arts, so much that deals directly with individual pieces. And, you know, I figured it'd be a great place to go. And I realized that "art podcast" is a crowded field. And I said, me too.

[00:05:28]Lindsey Dinneen:   Indeed. Well, good for you. And again, I love that concept and I just think that's so cool. So, okay. So in dealing with modern and contemporary art, are you-- just out of curiosity-- are you going to galleries and being inspired by something particular or are you finding things on the internet or how is your process of deciding which art to kind of feature and unpack?

[00:05:54] Christopher John Garcia: Well, I have a very complex algorithm to do that. Random. Basically, yeah, I go to a lot of museums. In particular, I go to SF MOMA, the Anderson collection at Stanford, the Cantor Art Museum when I can get there to moment itself. And I also have a massive collection of photographs because I'm that guy at a museum who takes a picture of everything. So it's really based largely on what I encounter typically at museums. I do some web stuff. In particular, I'm starting to do more stuff with Instagram artists who I meet typically through Clubhouse who are working. And I find pieces that really resonate with something I speak of a lot. Like the next issue I'm doing is about a work that very much reminds me of two of my favorite artists, Lichtenstein and then Sam Francis, and it looks like what happened if they were to work together.

[00:06:46]But yeah, it's all over the place.  One of our recent episodes was about the work of Sol LeWitt that they turned into an app. I think it was by The Met, but it might've been a sort of an associated group that was how Sol LeWitt and his work-- and it's this very contained app that actually gives you a lot of different views into how Sol LeWitt goes. So it's a little bit across the board. I do some video art, a little bit of music, but I tend towards sound art and soundscape type stuff. And sort of looking at how they are still, it's all about the effect of you more emotionally, but also there's sort of what I call the emotional intellect, which is a thought that you have that isn't necessarily logical or reasonable, but it is a thought that provokes that same sort of region.

[00:07:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Very cool. Well, and you know, random is good too. I like complex algorithm. That was entertaining. So, okay. So yeah, that sounds like a really interesting way to go about it in terms of, you know, it's, it's also just like, well, what is speaking to me right now? And then, so I'm curious, in your process for these episodes, I know you've talked about maybe unpacking it sort of on an emotional level in what it evokes, but are you also going into the history? Are you looking into the context behind it from the artist's point of view or mostly just sticking with your own personal interpretation?

[00:08:20]Christopher John Garcia: You kind of have to do both. And you know, for example, if I talk about "Guernica" by Picasso, you kind of have to say the Spanish Civil War happened. But you don't necessarily have to go into specifically Picasso's long history in Cubism, his blue period, but you kind of have to make nods toward them . But what's really fascinating in a work like-- "Guernica" is a great example, and an episode I haven't done-- is when you pull out an aspect that has an emotional impact on you and for me, it's that, that wailing mother with her hands up and that sort of disjointed head that emotional impact also triggers an idea that, "Oh, well, this actually very much speaks to Picasso's Cubist period, this very much has this sort of the blue period emotional impact that he carried through the early part of his career." So it sort of naturally flows out of that, that you do deal with some of the, the history and the technique aspect. I don't deal deeply with technique most of the time, largely because art technique is still a little bit mysterious to me, but I really do try. You know, art has, if I decided to go in all art history nerd, like I often do with my wife, sadly it would be a six hour podcast.

[00:09:44]Lindsey Dinneen: So then in knowing yourself, you know what you need to limit yourself to. I like it. Yeah. I like it. Okay, cool. Well, okay. So your career is very cool and very unique, and I'm just curious, how do you sort of fall into an-- obviously you didn't fall into it-- but fall into a job like that because, I mean, what, what was your background that enabled you to then become this, this curator of a museum? That's just really interesting.

[00:10:14] Christopher John Garcia: Yeah. Funny, you should ask. I was a floor worker, I basically a docent and tour guide and someone who told you to stop touching objects at the old Computer Museum in Boston. And it was slowly falling apart and getting ready to close. It would eventually be bought out by the Museum of Science. And I grew up in the Bay Area and I was out in Boston at that museum, but they had an affiliate in California. So when I went home for Christmas, one year I decided to visit and they said, "Yeah, we've got this job opening." And I said, "I will apply for this job because Boston is cold." And I ended up getting the job. Literally I fell into it because no one else wanted the job. It was $12.50 an hour. And no one else wanted that in Silicon Valley at that point except for me.

[00:11:05]And yeah, for 20 years that's what I did and what was great is that I was largely in charge of my own research interests. And that was fascinating. When you give the freedom to a curator to go and investigate what truly interests them and what they think is missing in the museum, what you gain is an incredible amount of insight and a lot of extra labor from the person who's actually doing the research. And it turned out that a lot of the stuff that I was doing was not only stuff that we didn't know previously, but we didn't see how it connected to the bigger world. And it was just a great job. 20 years. I got laid off in 2019, sadly. Hashtag #learntofundraise. But the real, the real fascinating thing about, you know, lucking into this gig, like I had my art history background, but really it was the fact that I knew how to give a really good tour, ended up getting me the job and, you know, I held onto it because it's just a thing that I really understood. And I think I really grew up with the museum itself.

[00:12:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Cool. How incredible. And I love that you were given that autonomy and freedom to explore the things that interested you and then get to just learn and grow. That's really cool. I think that's awesome. And so what was the most surprising thing maybe that you learned along that journey?

[00:12:36]Christopher John Garcia: So it, it's both surprising-- and then when I think about it, not at all surprising-- I got to go and meet a artist by the name of Harold Cohen. . Initially I knew him, his sort of work from the sixties and very early seventies as an abstract painter, sort of along the lines of if Hawking was working completely... David Hockney, not Hawking. Hawking is the scientist. Hockney was working completely abstract. Very, very great color palette, amazing line, but he got very interested in artificial intelligence and developed a system called Aaron, the AARON Paint System, which he developed for almost 40 years. And I got to spend a couple of days with him.

[00:13:28] And what was so surprising was he was talking about when he got into AI, it wasn't that-- the art community naturally sort of rejected the work because it wasn't clear who was the artist? Was it Harold Cohen or was it AARON, the Paint System that he developed. And it wasn't that 'cause that I understood, but it was that when you program a system to create art, it is naturally going to attempt to create art in the mode of its creator. Because the creator understands art in that way. So all AARON is a set of rules, but when you define a set of rules, you're going to define it with your own biases already installed. And it's fascinating to see that.

[00:14:23] And I managed to also connect with another computer music pioneer, who also does visual arts with his programs, guy by the name of David Cope. And he recognized that. And what he did to avoid that was he made it possible to input external work by, in his case for music mini files, from, you know, Shostakovitch, Scott Joplin, Bach, and so he removed himself from the set of rules. The rules were defined by the input, and it was so interesting that I never thought in a million years that just setting a set of rules into a computer program would actually have that much effect. And then when I thought about it, it was like, "Yeah, of course that's how you would do it." And then I realized, wait, there's a way to do it where it's not actually your rules. It's someone else's. I just love that.

[00:15:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Oh my goodness. That is so cool. I didn't even know that those technologies existed. So that's really fascinating to me that that's even a thing. How cool!

[00:15:27] Christopher John Garcia: Well, what's incredible about that is right now, we are in an absolute Renaissance of AI art. And it's scary because it is very, very quickly being monetized. We saw some of the first works done almost. All the major AI art is being done in Europe right now. In particular there's our groups in Amsterdam, in a couple different places in France, England. And what's amazing is that now they're starting to go to auctions and fetching high sums, but this isn't where we're going to see AI art. We're going to see AI art in hotel lobbies, hotel rooms, any place where large-scale art creation is necessary. And right now, almost all that work is outsourced typically to China or small artists who are willing to work for relatively cheap for reproduction. In this case, it's highly possible that AI will be creating all the art we encounter in public corporate spaces, and that's a very big change and will have a very big impact on not only the art market, but the art market that no one thinks about: the commercial art market for commercial properties.

[00:16:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Hm. So do you think that that's a good thing or is it not necessarily inherently good or bad? It just is different.

[00:16:45]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah. That's... I go back and forth and it depends on how much I like computer programmers at the moment. I think it is a good thing in that we are developing systems that are able to get art out more quickly. And I think it's a bad thing of course, because it is going to put some artists out of work, but by having the work that can get out more quickly, it is going to drive the art market in general broader. And that's going to allow more artists to actually get work, to get commissions. Now, how, how that drives against one another, it's hard to tell. And new technologies and art are changing everything. And so it's a really, we're on kind of a knife's edge and we could fall either direction. We could either end up with a market that is an, a, an output that is AI driven. We have very little, as of yet, AI generated art that has made it into the museum space. And when you really look at the history of art, it's the stuff that gets into the museum space that ends up being the most significant. We're still seeing a massive influx of artists working today who are being displayed in museums. So I think the human is still going to be the more significant player in what art means and becomes, but I think AI is going to be a major part of what sells and that, you know, who knows which direction that'll go.

[00:18:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's going to be really interesting to follow that journey then and see what does end up happening and how does it twist and weave through different avenues and yeah, that's going to be really different. Like, I'm, I'm just wrapping my head around it right now, thinking about it, because again, I didn't know these technologies existed, so I'm like, huh?  Okay. So, you know, you mentioned that you started taking that painting. What kind of artwork do you tend to lean towards with your own? Is it more abstract? Is it more realistic? What do you like?

[00:19:05] Christopher John Garcia: Oh, it's a hundred percent abstract just because I don't have the skills to actually do representational. But one of the things on my Instagram is that I'll post an image where it's literally, I squoze three tubes of paint onto a piece of paper. I covered it with a little glue and I put another piece of paper on top of it and I scan it later, usually after it dries, but when it doesn't dry, my wife gets mad. And people will start to recognize that, "Oh, that's obviously a picture of X, Y, and Z." And one of the other things I do on the side is I publish zines and I had squished a whole bunch of acrylic paint that I just tossed onto a piece of paper and I peeled it off, but I had let it dry a little bit before I squished it. So it made this sort of feathery looking look and it looks exactly like the cryptid known as Moth Man.

[00:19:56] And at that point I realized that something there's something in the sort of the chance operations space, that where even if you're not actively trying to create representational image, representational image will come forth. And so that picture of Moth Man, as I call it now, is a picture of Moth Man, even though I wasn't painting Moth Man. I wasn't painting anything. I was just putting paint on paper and that really, for me, raises some interesting questions as well. If I didn't mean to paint Moth Man, did I paint Moth Man? And the answer for me to that is, of course I'm painted Moth Man. What, are you crazy? Although I could get into the whole thing of that. Maybe Moth Man is some sort of entity that was working through me to make sure I painted a painting of him. But that might be a bridge too far, even for me.

[00:20:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure. Of course. Well, that's cool. Oh my goodness. Okay. And so is that something that you anticipate you'll continue doing even sort of after things hopefully return to normal?

[00:21:00]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, I think what's really fascinating is that once I realized I loved the act of painting, I realized even more that I loved the material of painting. And I, I think painting can be a process that is laborious, that is tedious, that is mind numbing. It can also be one that is brief, that is freeing, that is inexact. And for me, it's definitely the latter, but the things that I love about it is just looking at how things react with one another. Like if I put oils and acrylics and inks on the same page and put a little Elmer's glue on top of it, and then put another page on top of it, the way it feels under the hand. Like that's a sensation that I can't think of repeating. And it's one that doesn't take long. It's just a couple of minutes even. And there's that sensation that's an irreplaceable thing. It's the aspect of the artists that I don't know if I ever really understood until I started painting myself, is that there are sensations to this that don't exist many other places. That the actual act of making marks on paper, on a canvas, whatever has a feeling. And when you find a feeling that is pleasurable or relieving or funky, you know, you're going to want to keep going back to that. So I don't see myself stopping painting. Probably painting a little less, but definitely it's something I'll keep doing that. And I have an Instagram to fill, so yes.

[00:22:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Well, excellent. Well, I'm just curious. I know you've gotten to meet some pretty cool artists yourself-- and obviously your experiences as a curator and as a podcaster have probably lent themselves to some really memorable moments-- but I wonder if there's anything that kind of really stands out to you as an encounter with art that was like just something to remember to kind of file back there and return to every once in awhile.

[00:23:17]Christopher John Garcia: Oh yeah. Bunch. I mean my first time I ever met an artist artist-- well, the first time I ever encountered an artist, this I should actually point out-- was Andy Warhol. And I didn't get to meet him, but I sat right behind him at Madison Square Garden at a WWF wrestling show.

[00:23:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:23:39] Christopher John Garcia: And he was always in the front row and always taking pictures with his little camera. But little seven year old me, I couldn't talk to them because even I knew who he was and I was seven, but I got to know Robert Rauschenberg a little bit because he would visit our college and he was a fascinating human in many ways. But what I learned when I went to a big exhibit of his at SF MOMA was that his interests were so broad because he was so interesting and wanted to make the world as interested in things as he was. And it was like one of the best things. Again, this is something that people may not realize, every pop artist loves wrestling. I do not know why this is true, but everyone I've met-- Rauschenberg, Warhol, didn't meet him, but still-- Lichtenstein, Marisol, all of them love wrestling. And what Robert Rauschenberg said that one time when we were-- 'cause you'd stopped by class, then a lot of us would go out drinking afterwards-- he said "You know, you have to be careful how you are positioning your art, whether or not it is referencing the zeitgeists or referencing some niche topics that only two people in the gallery will get." And it's, you know, if you do a painting of whole Cogan, everyone will get it. It's a zeitgeist. But if you're talking about Pak Song and Dusty Rhodes, you're talking about niche.

[00:25:09] And at that point, one, this was obviously made for me, even though he didn't know it. But two, he was really saying something that I bought into because you know, oh, this idea that there is a universality, but there's also a place for niche, which I love. But he was a really fun guy. I didn't see him after probably '97, but really had a good time with him. And I was very lucky. Another guy who's known more for music, but is actually a wonderful visual artist, is Mark Mothersbaugh of Divo. And I got to interview him, do an oral history with him. He has a fascinating eye for the world. And every day he writes one postcard size image he creates and he has thousands of them and they're beautiful. But then he was also doing this a very simple thing where he took classic, often Victorian, sometimes early 20th century photographs and uses Photoshop to place a mirror image of it. So it gives you that sort of awkward exactly symmetrical look.

[00:26:14] But yeah, those have been two of my favorite. I've been lucky that I've gotten to meet a lot of really fun artists through the museum. You know, there were a lot of folks who didn't feel like early computer was being talked about enough and we're very happy to have anyone who would be interested in this stuff. But always, you know, artists like everyone, there are good ones who are wanting to talk to you all day long. And there are others who don't. You sort of learned which is which.

[00:26:44]Lindsey Dinneen: For sure, for sure. Well, yeah. And, you know, just, it's so funny 'cause obviously everyone has different personalities and I would second that some artists are a little more approachable than others, but you know, that is okay. Well, I'm sure that some of our listeners are going to be super interested in your work, both as a podcaster and as a painter. And I'm wondering if there are ways for us to, of course, A) listen to your podcast and then B) check out some of your artwork.

[00:27:14] Christopher John Garcia: Oh, there absolutely are. I have my podcast on the internet,  just look for "Three-Minute Modernist" and you will find it all over the place. And then you can find my artwork and pictures of my kids, also things I cook, on Instagram at Johnny Eponymous, J O H N N Y E P O N Y MOU S. I'm also the same thing on Twitter, the same thing on Facebook, the same thing on pretty much everything. Since Friendster, I've been Johnny Eponymous. But yeah, and I'm, yeah, I'm all over the place. It's hard to miss me.

[00:27:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Well, first of all, thank you just so much again for being here and sharing your stories. And I'm just so fascinated learning about how technology and art intersect, and that's just so cool that you shared that very unique perspective. So I definitely appreciate that. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:28:10]Christopher John Garcia: Whew...

[00:28:10]Lindsey Dinneen: I know.

[00:28:11] Christopher John Garcia: I'm ready.

[00:28:12] Lindsey Dinneen: It's pressure.

[00:28:12] Christopher John Garcia: I'm ready.

[00:28:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. First of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:28:20]Christopher John Garcia: Art is that thing you do that is mostly useless, but ultimately important.

[00:28:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Care to elaborate, or are we just going to leave that be?

[00:28:32]Christopher John Garcia: I'll elaborate slightly. It is the shape of the tool, not the use of the tool, I think is the way I, I wrote it in a paper once when I was trying to be smart. It's really about something that brings you an emotional experience of some sort that isn't just because of what it does, but what it is. And so, you know, we have paintings around the house 'cause my wife's mother's a actual painter who paints actual paintings. And every time I see one of them, it makes me feel hungry and it's because there's all sorts of food in it. But, you know, I consider that to be art because it draws an emotion out of me.

[00:29:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure, sure. Perfect. Okay.

[00:29:18] Christopher John Garcia: It's also a good painting of food.

[00:29:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, there you go. Perfect. Oh yeah. Well, that's a, that's a very unique answer and I like it. Okay. So, secondly, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:29:32]Christopher John Garcia: To make art. I mean, really, that's what it comes down to, I think. Wanting an artist to be a philosopher, a spokesman, any of that? Really not as important as the fact that they just create the work.

[00:29:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. And then finally, I'll define my terms a little bit in this last question, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and shares a little bit of context behind that, whether it's program notes or the inspiration or a title. Just something to give the viewer an idea of what went into the creation. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who does put their work out there, but doesn't provide the context and therefore leaves it entirely up to the viewer to interpret it at will.

[00:30:25]Christopher John Garcia: I'm going to throw you a curve ball and say there is no such thing as an inclusive artist.

[00:30:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Ooh. Tell me more.

[00:30:33]Christopher John Garcia: Everything an artist does is meant to be interpreted, is meant to be placed into a context. So that would be now exclusive. Nevermind. But yeah, they, every purpose choice you make is giving you more of a clue. If an artist says, "This is not titled," it doesn't mean he is just-- I don't care what you call it-- it's, he's making a choice. He doesn't want to give you the direction, but there is a direction and, you know, I've, I always think of-- I think it was Barnett Newman who once said I paint a zip. I put a line down a canvas. To me, that's a line. To someone else that could be a streetlight. And we're both right.

[00:31:25]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah.

[00:31:26] Christopher John Garcia: And I think that, you know, I think everything an artist does has the reason that it's done to bring about some thought, even if that thing that they do isn't giving you any background, but is giving you the lack of background. That seems strange, but in my brain it works.

[00:31:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I really, that is the most unique answer I've received for that question. So I like that. That is a really interesting point. So thank you for sharing that perspective because I really that's going to make me think about that even more. So thank you for that.

[00:32:05]Christopher John Garcia: I do what I can.

[00:32:06] Lindsey Dinneen: I know. I appreciate it. Well, thank you just so very much for being here today, Chris, I really appreciate your time and you sharing your background and what you're up to. And I'm so excited about your podcast. And I encourage all of our listeners to also check out Chris's podcast and subscribe and all that good stuff, because obviously he brings a cool, unique perspective and it's three minutes. So, like the perfect way to just start your day. So thank you again, Chris. And I just want to commend you for everything that you're doing and sharing art with the world. I really think that that's important and kudos to you.

[00:32:49]Christopher John Garcia: Well, thank you much. It's been so much fun.

[00:32:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Good. Yeah. Well, and thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:33:04] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In today's episode, I welcome Donna Kay Yarborough! Donna Kay is a performer who has worked extensively in improv, theater, and comedy sports, as well as writing, producing, and performing her own one-woman shows. She talks about her artistic journey and her excitement about getting back to live shows, as well as about her upcoming production, "Rosegold." (Fun fact: the cover image for this week's episode is the show image for "Rosegold.") 

Get in touch with Donna Kay Yarborough: www.donnakayspeaks.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 51 - Donna Yarborough

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello. And welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am excited to have as my guest today, Donna Kay Yarborough. She is a performer and I cannot wait to dive into all that that means because I know she works in a lot of different genres and a lot of different ways. And so thank you so much for being here today.

[00:00:55] Donna Kay Yarborough: Thank you for having me and my morning voice. I'm excited to be here.

[00:01:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. So we are recording on an early Monday morning. And so here we are.

[00:01:06]Donna Kay Yarborough: Definitely.

[00:01:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I'd love to hear more about your background and maybe how you got started in art, and then maybe a little bit of what you're doing now, if you don't mind.

[00:01:18] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah, it's one of those that my history is a long, long string of trying to put off the fact that I am an artist. I started, I mean, I was always the talker since I was a little kid. I would always get the narration rolls and stuff like that. And then in middle school and high school is when I first discovered theater and I've really discovered a proclivity to that. And my parents were always, "Well, this is a lovely phase you're going to, but when are you going to become a teacher? Because that's what you're good at." And I never left the theater phase and the more I fought it, the more I got dragged back into it. So I have just very many different angles that has brought me to the current place that I am right now that I guess is best described as an independent performance artist though. It's not performance art. It's, it's ,it's all manner of whatnot. There's a specific term:  whatnot. I do whatnot.

[00:02:22] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Okay. And what does the whatnot look like these days?

[00:02:27]Donna Kay Yarborough:  Currently, I've been doing a lot of Fringe Theater Festivals. So the most current project, which I'll be coming to Kansas City with, is a solo horror show called "Rosegold." It's a 45 minutes storytelling experience. We'll put it that way. And so that's what all my years have led up to.

[00:02:51]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. So as far as, so this is a one woman show, I'm imagining, and it's storytelling about various-- are these like real- life horror stories or are these like fictional stories or how does that whole thing work?

[00:03:06]Donna Kay Yarborough:  This, this one in particular is fiction, but I will say that it is honestly quite informed by real life. We'll put it that way.

[00:03:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Absolutely. And so what got you interested in, in that particular genre or what kind of sparked this show?

[00:03:26] Donna Kay Yarborough: I have always loved horror since I was a little kid, like when I was in third grade, my favorite authors were Edgar Allan Poe, Stephen King and Ray Bradbury. So it is not unfamiliar to me to be just absorbed in the horror genre, but throughout the ages, I've always been seen as a comedian, whether I wanted to be or not, I have always been identified as such. So this has been a pleasant surprise for this show to fall out of my head and to find that it is being effective in giving people the chilly willies or whatever you want to say. Chilly willy sounds like I'm sticking the finger in people's ears, but you know what I mean?

[00:04:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Okay. All right. So you said, you know, regardless of whether you particularly wanted to be, or not, you sort of ended up in more of a humorous role. Is that something that you kind of pursued or is that just something that fell into your lab?

[00:04:31] Donna Kay Yarborough: I would say six of one, half a dozen of the other. Because I've always been a smart ass and I didn't realize how integral part of my personality that was until I got older, but I went to school for theater and I did okay. But at that time I started doing improv. I got involved with comedy sports. I can't remember if Kansas City has a comedy sports team or not, or used to, but I, they used to, as a matter of fact, cause that was the only time I've been to Kansas City was for a comedy sports tournament. Yeah. And I got involved with that in 1995, and I've still been doing that all along. And then the improv led me into interactive theater, which I did pretty intensely for 10 years at a Renaissance Festival in upstate New York. And then, since then it's been sort of an adventure finding wherever I am. So it's been quite a few years that I've been doing music and comedy and independent theater.

[00:05:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. So I'm sure that there is more of a journey, cause you mentioned, you know, kind of early childhood starting to get interested in all of the different art aspects. And like you said, you did narration, you were always sort of that kind of role. So I'm curious, how did you get from there as sort of, you know, obviously more of a side hobby and pursuit or extracurricular to now you're doing this. Is this a full-time gig or how did it kind of evolve from this is my side hobby to, this is kind of what I'm pursuing?

[00:06:06] Donna Kay Yarborough: I think that it was more of, this has always been what I've been pursuing, but in the name of being reasonable, I have shoved it to the side for other things. Cause you know, in high school I was one of those kids. I was in band, choir and theater and at for whatever reason, theater is the one that I decided to follow. And again, as I've mentioned, I just got stuck in it. By the way, I keep resisting my temptation to say theater because I am from Texas and it took me a while to unlearn "I'm in theater." But that's what happened. I went to university for it and in Texas as well, and I kept trying to juggle the jobs and the theater. And then in my mid- twenties, I had the joys of having a very intense bout of cancer. I had a Hodgkin's disease that went undiagnosed for a while and I nearly died from a giant tumor in my lung. And it was at that point that I think I'm more consciously made a decision that I'm not here to mess around, going to focus on whatever this is, this gift that I have now. So ever since then, granted, it's been you know, over 20 years since the cancer and the stem cell transplant, but I've become more and more adept and allowed, I will say, of focusing on aspects of my performance in art full time.

[00:07:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. And thank you for sharing that. That's-- I mean, goodness, kudos to you for overcoming that. And also of course, just, you know, using that as an opportunity to recognize that life isn't a dress rehearsal, I guess, as cliche as that is, and, and, you know, to embrace the here and the now. And that's really cool.

[00:08:05] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah. Yeah, no, I've been very fortunate compared to others because not everybody has a positive outcome from the cancer like I did, but I also, in my show-- previous to the horror show I'm doing now-- I created a show about my work as a standardized patient, which is basically a medical actor. I'm the person that people learn how to interact with patients . So it's, that's part of my creative work as well. And I love it, but because of my background with the healthcare system, I worked into that humorous show, a very strong call for universal healthcare in this country. And, when I went to Canada with the show, they were like, "Well, we know healthcare is bad in the United States," but a lot of them didn't understand to what degree it is leaving people in a wake of destruction in this country. So I was able to use that personal experience to inform that piece and make it a conversation starter and informational for people.

[00:09:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that's really cool. So does your work that you write and whatever, does that normally have sort of a, an underlying call to action or does it depend on the work itself?

[00:09:26] Donna Kay Yarborough: I have discovered that I do tend to put in a call to action. It's just how I'm built. I figure if I'm going to make this piece of entertainment, I should bring a bit of awareness and discussion into it. So with previous acts I've done, I used to be part of a comedy duo and my former show partner, Sadie Bowman, who's doing fantastic work touring with doing Matheatre, the name of their group, they're doing informative theater for schools, STEM based. She and I would create work that even though it was comedy, it definitely had sort of a feminist awareness angle to it. And since then, I've just always thought that if I'm going to create this thing, let's, let's make it deeper than just being frivolous. Entertainment's fine. I have no problem with something being created just for the sake of entertaining. But if you can lace it with a little bit of delicious awareness, you might as well use that opportunity.

[00:10:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. So what does your creative writing process look like? Like do you have the inspiration first and then just dive right into the writing process? Or how does that work for you?

[00:10:42]Donna Kay Yarborough:  It is one that has changed over the years and what it used to be-- and granted, now this part of me, aside from the cancer, a lot of this that has influenced me lately has been sort of coming to terms with my depression and my family inheritance of mental illness --that in the early days, I used to be able to just sit down and go, "I want to write this." And it would all just fall right out of my face, just "waha" there onto the page without even thinking twice. And then in the past decade or so, that had become more and more difficult where I would set a goal and trying to get it out of me was just-- I was wrestling with demons that everything was trying to hold me in place and keep me from moving forward. So I was very dependent on other people to help me with the material, or I would just throw it to the realm of improv. I deliberately make it improv because one of the joys of being a trained improviser is yes, you are comfortable making up stuff on the fly, but the downside is, you have a tendency to go, "Oh, I'll just make that up. I'll just figure out something when that happens." So for the past few years, it's been very much like that. And then in the past year, trying to understand my brain again, the new version of my brain, I think I've returned back to the, I can sit down and address something and it'll come to me.

[00:12:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And so what are you most excited about with this new production that you're working on? Are you going to be producing it for a bunch of different Fringe Festivals or what's, what's your goal with it?

[00:12:36] Donna Kay Yarborough: That is my hope. I'm in several this year, virtually, which as terrible as the virtual landscape and the pandemic has been for artists overall, I do love that as far as Fringe Festivals are concerned, the virtual Fringe Festival. The festival has made it much more affordable for people like me who don't necessarily have a trust fund and a stock pile of cash. So I've been able to do this virtually-- which the show when it started was meant to be in person-- and then with the pandemic, I had an opportunity to do it in September and it perfectly morphed for the virtual presentation for Zoom presentation, but I will be later this year in a festival that is yet to be disclosed. I can't officially say which one yet, but I will be doing it in person. And I am very excited about that form of it as well.

[00:13:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is so exciting. I cannot wait to get back to in person performing because there's just nothing quite like it.

[00:13:47] Donna Kay Yarborough: It's true. I like the virtual, but the energy-- it's like learning in a classroom, the collective energy of people being there together in a point of focus in unity is definitely one of the most important aspects of live performance, in my opinion.

[00:14:05]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. That sharing of energy, even within the audience itself, just sitting next to other people who are as excited as you are to be there is, is cool too. So, for sure.

[00:14:17] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah, it definitely, it definitely reminds us that we are a community.

[00:14:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. The camaraderie sort of, of the arts is, is really special, so... Very cool. Okay! So then obviously you've got, you know, your work cut out for you this year. Do you have other exciting things in the works as well for the future?

[00:14:39] Donna Kay Yarborough: For the future, well as things open up, I'm looking forward to getting back into improv. So that's something that's been sitting on the back burner and I have missed horribly. I do enjoy, and the, the form that I do with comedy sports-- another shout out for comedy sports-- is that it is a format that is engendered to be friendly for all ages.  I absolutely adore having an opportunity to do all ages shows that are very, very inclusive. So I'm looking forward to getting back to that. That'll be nice. And I'm also just looking forward to, to figuring out if maybe this is my new thing is to create more horror.

[00:15:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. And then, so I'm curious if, you know, if there's somebody out there who's kind of interested in doing what you do. What kinds of advice would you have for somebody who might just be thinking of doing something like that or taking that leap of faith to get started? What would you say to somebody like that?

[00:15:42] Donna Kay Yarborough: I would say, first of all, is run with your idea. If you have an idea, whether it be, "I would like to do something like this,: or "I have an idea of this that might do this," let that fall out of your head in whatever form it's going to be in. And then specifically for these independent shows, I did not come into awareness of the Fringe Festival world until I was into my forties. So I'm still, I've been doing this for a few years, but compared to other people, I'm still rather new at that scene. And I will say my first Fringe Festival that I went to I found very inspiring because I had grown weary of the concept of live theater. It seemed to be very much, or even over the past few years, completely respecting the level of skill that is needed for live theater in smaller arenas. It felt like it had gotten pretty hackneyed and they had to focus on what is going to be the money builder, as opposed to what is exciting and engaging. And going to a Fringe Theater Festival made me realize that there were so many more options for what is considered live performance and live theater. So I would encourage anybody that is anywhere close to a Fringe Festival to go to that and just see how many options there are out there and what each different flavor of performance does for people. I found that very, very inspiring.

[00:17:19]And then I would say, find the middle ground in that. Figure out if you can start with something formed like that, use that inspiration of structure to create something on your own. The truth is that as a creative, you're going to make a lot of little babies that may never get to go out into the world and see the light of day. So you just got to keep making those creative babies. You've got all these little babies, and some of these babies are going to be dear to you, and they may not ever get to walk out of the nest, but you've got to allow your heart to keep making these little nuggets of hope.

[00:17:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I like that. Yes. And I second your opinion on the Fringe Festivals. Yes, if you are an aspiring artist or even somebody who wants something just a little bit different, Fringe Festivals are such a great way to get started or to reach a new audience or anything like that, because they are an affordable way to to get going or again, to reach a different audience. So, yeah, I absolutely second that advice.

[00:18:26] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah, and I like that many of them are developed specifically to give opportunities. Now you might go to a festival and not everything you see is going to be quote unquote "good." There's going to be some stuff where you leave just going, "Ooh, bless their heart." But that's part of the beauty of it, is that it allows for people that have never done it before to test it out and see if they come up with something that may lightning struck and is magic. But then it gives people that are established an opportunity to do something in their own terms and genuinely, maybe make some money from it because improv festivals, standup comedy festivals-- yeah. You don't ever make any money. That is not how you will ever, ever get into building a foundation for you. But many of the folks I know that do Fringe Festivals, a lot of them do it full time. They tour year round, and it is not an easy existence, but it is how they define their existence.

[00:19:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think to that point, we've sort of danced around it a little bit, but the, the great thing about Fringe Festivals is that they are uncensored. So, so it's up to the artists to bring what they will, which is lovely because it gives you a lot of artistic freedom to explore. Whereas some other festivals are looking for very specific types of art or specific topics or, or what have you. So yeah, it's, it's a special opportunity. I'll put it that way.

[00:20:04] Donna Kay Yarborough: I agree. I wish I had discovered it many years earlier. I will say that since I've found the Renaissance Festival circuit before this, there is a lot of camaraderie and spirit that overlaps with the two. Some of the folks that I know from the Fringe Festival circuit, I actually met doing Renaissance Festivals, because it's a very similar feeling of, people get together in different locations. You have locals creating their version of art. You have non-locals that tour across the country, doing these bite-sized shows. And it's, it's a very similar love of performance with just a different patina on top of it.

[00:20:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. Yes. And so for people who want to either follow your work and, or specifically are interested in your upcoming show, is there a way for us to connect with you? To make sure we stay on top of that?

[00:21:07] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yes. I have a website that is Donna Kay Speaks. So D O N N A K A Y S P E A K S. That's donnakayspeaks.com. And on that, I have links to my social media and I try to keep up on a blog what's going through my head and where I'm going to be next. And I will also be very blatantly placing where this current show of mine, "Rosegold," is going to be. Which again, I am very excited about to share the world with.

[00:21:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And what's so great too about the fact that these Fringe Festivals are virtual, is that you can literally be anywhere in the country and still follow, you know, what, what you're doing and make sure that you see these, these cool productions online. So that is the, I have to say that that is kind of the magic of this format, I think.

[00:22:07] Donna Kay Yarborough: It's true. I made my debut in the UK with having never been there. That's what I did a festival in January that was an open call out of Edinburgh. And that's kind of exciting. Maybe someday I'll physically get there as well.

[00:22:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. So cool. Okay. Well, first of all, thank you so much for sharing all about your art and sort of how you got into all these different avenues and also your advice. I really appreciate it. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:22:42] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yes.

[00:22:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:22:50]Donna Kay Yarborough:  I think the best definition I have for it is connection. Like I mentioned earlier, that moment of unity is what makes live performance so much fun. I think any sort of art you've thrived for that point that the person who creates, meets with the person who observes and they share an awareness of some sort of information or perspective. You'll see a lot of people that say, "I do my art for my sake and I don't care what other people think." And quite honestly, I feel like that's a very selfish approach to art. You can be true to yourself and still honor the audience at the same time, because it's a symbiotic relationship. You are not an artist in a vacuum. We all exist because we are in the presence of each other.

[00:23:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I like that. I absolutely love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:23:58]Donna Kay Yarborough: There are many different roles that people have depending on their abilities and what their focus is. So like I mentioned earlier, some people just want to bring joy into the world. And I think that is lovely. Joy is defined on many different levels and that can be a pure focus in me. I I flavor joy on top of a baseline of perspective. I am ever the educator, even though I am not officially teaching in a classroom, my goal is to always teach in some manner or another. So making this tasty nugget of learning I think is how I function. And a lot of people out there function, there's other things you can do. Sometimes you just want to make a pretty thing, or sometimes you just want to decorate. And that again is very, very valuable in this world, but  mine is teaching.

[00:25:00] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's the inspiration that went into the process of creating it, or program notes or a title or something like that. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to make of it what they will.

[00:25:35] Donna Kay Yarborough: I think it's entirely dependent on the project, because if you are creating a piece that you want folks to know everything that led up to this point, because that is part of the awareness in presentation, by all means, bring people into your process. People are necessary for your process. So let them have as much access to yourself as you were comfortable to them. Having that being said, some shows you don't want spoilers. You want it to hit them all at once and then after they experience it, they can begin to deconstruct and learn about all that went into it. Or the goal of it is to just put it forward and let whatever it means for the viewer, that is what it means. There is no boxing. There is no qualifying. It just exists for the people to have as it is. So I think honestly, there's no hard answer for that. It could be any and all.

[00:26:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. Well, thank you so very much for being here today. I really appreciate your time. And of course, I'm so excited for your upcoming performances and congrats on getting to do some live, you know, later this year as well. So it's just exciting to be able to watch your journey. So thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for being here today. I really do appreciate it.

[00:27:12] Donna Kay Yarborough: Thank you very much for having me. And I'm looking so forward to being in Kansas City virtually.

[00:27:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:27:32] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much! And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In today's episode, I welcome Gloria Grace Rand! Gloria is a speaker, author, podcast host, and lover of music and art. She shares the stories about the inspiration from her sister that helped her write her book about love, along with her journey from SEO copywriter to podcaster and beyond. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Gloria's book, "Live. Love. Engage.")

Get in touch with Gloria Grace Rand: www.gloriarand.com | www.liveloveengagebook.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 50 - Gloria Grace Rand

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to have as my guest today, Gloria Grace Rand. She is an author, speaker, and podcast host, and has a really rich background. And I'm just so excited to hear more about what she's doing now and how she got her start and all of those good things. So thank you so much for being here today, Gloria. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:58] Gloria Grace Rand: Oh, thank you so much, Lindsey. I am so excited to delve into this today. I'm really, I'm really looking forward to our discussion.

[00:01:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Well, it's so much fun to talk about art if you're an art lover. So, I would love if you would just mind sharing a little bit about your background and maybe sort of how you got into the various art forms that you do and yeah, maybe what you're up to now, too.

[00:01:21]Gloria Grace Rand: I would love to, and yeah, the arts have always been a part of my life. I mean, starting from, let's see, five years old when I started taking dance lessons. So I did tap, ballet, and jazz for, for years. And, in fact, the ballet part even as an adult. So, because I loved it so much-- even though that's not what I did professionally-- I wish I could have, but I was never quite, did not exactly have that dancer's body-- but it's so much fun to do. And the other part that has been a big part of my life has been music. I was in the band in school. Actually, the first instrument I ever learned how to play was the organ. We had a Hammond organ in our house growing up and my dad played it and I learned how to play, and then learned how to play the guitar. And then in school it was, I started out playing flute in junior high, and then switched to saxophone in high school because we had too many flute players. So I, I enjoyed that tremendously.

[00:02:17] And, and the other part of myself, I guess, that has been a big part has been writing. As you mentioned, I am an author. I recently published my first book. But writing has always been a part of what I've been doing. I mean, I was a pen pal when I was a kid, and then I wound up actually majoring in mass communications in college, and got involved in television. I was involved in television production. I worked for a long time for the Nightly Business Report when it was on public television and I started off my first job with them was what was called a Character Generator Operator. And so I was typing up the words that would be go onto the screen and as well as helping making some of the graphics that we would use for the program. And then I eventually became a writer for the show and, and a producer.

[00:03:09] And so I did that for a long time, loved working in television, and then we were living in Miami at the time. I moved up to Orlando and I had to find something else to do. And I wound up investing in a course to do SEO copywriting. So I was writing, learn how to write content for websites and, and to help them get found, right? Figure out the right keywords that'll help you get found in Google, and then incorporate them in a way that actually makes sense at a website to be able to get people to take action and buy someone's products and services. And I've been doing that for the last 10 plus years and have really enjoyed that as well. And at the same time, over the last few years, I've been on a spiritual journey that happened when my sister was diagnosed with cancer and it culminated in the writing of this book. I've been doing a podcast and it's just like, all of it has just been this really cool journey and has just involved me finding ways to be out there, you know, just being, expressing myself. I actually just created a new tagline for my business. I call it "Messages from the Heart" because that's pretty much what I'm doing through a lot of different modalities. And that's a lot of fun. And we'll probably talk about some more of that in a little bit, but that's, that's the not- really- short version, but, but a little version about where I am right now.

[00:04:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Of course I'd love to delve more into all of the different things, but so I'm curious, are you still participating in music now?  Are you still actively playing any of those instruments or anything like that?

[00:04:52]Gloria Grace Rand: It's funny you should mention that. And I should mention the other part is singing has also been a big part of my life as well, but last year during, during the pandemic-- and I'm not even really sure what, what was it that prompted it-- but I pulled my guitar out of my closet, which I haven't touched in about 10 years and and realized it was like, I missed music. I hadn't been doing anything with it. And so I got the guitar out and I started playing it again. And that was a lot of fun. And I also started-- which I haven't done since let's see probably seven years old-- it was the last time I actually wrote a couple of songs, which just sort of blew my mind that that this was coming to me and as this new way of being creative. And it was exciting, and I also started playing the organ again. I'd kind of played it off and on, but not consistently, but I realized that it's like, I should do this because it brings me joy.

[00:05:52] And I think that that was mostly it. In fact that that is why I started playing the guitar again. 'Cause I had, I was working with a coach and she's like, "Well, what, what brings you joy?" And I'm like, "Well, music." And that's like, yeah, wait a minute. I've got a guitar. I need to start playing music again. 'Cause you know, last year was such a weird year and it's still a bit continuing that way. And, it's so important to do the things that you love to do. And so, yeah, I started doing that and it was great. And, and like I mentioned, singing has been something that I've always enjoyed doing as well. I used to be in church choirs for, for a long time and really enjoyed doing that. And so I've, so again, this like writing songs is kind of getting back into me being able to sing again, which has been really a lot of fun. My favorite part about Girl Scout camp was singing around the campfire just to give you an indication of me and music.

[00:06:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, of course. That's fantastic. So I'm curious, do you own an organ or do you have to go somewhere to play one?

[00:06:56]Gloria Grace Rand: No, I actually do have-- it, it's really old now.  It was a secondhand one that I bought from a coworker back when I was working at the Nightly Business Report. So this, this, this instrument is, oh my gosh, it must be 30 years old now for sure.  The pedals don't work that great, but it still works.  I bought a keyboard once before I got this organ and, you know, a nice electronic keyboard, but it just wasn't the same, especially because those keyboards are typically-- you play, it's more like a piano. And I grew up with two keyboards, you know, so it's like the upper register of the lower register and pedals. And I just prefer playing that way. So when a coworker was moving and she was offering this organ for sale, I'm like, "I'll take it, I'll buy it." And just to be able to have that experience again,  sitting down on a badge and just playing that way. ' Cause I grew up playing chords with my left hand, as opposed to that. I can play the intricate left-hand like you would do on a piano, but I don't know, chords are easier for me. I like it better.

[00:08:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Well, I'm so impressed with musicians. Of course, that is already just so much work and dedication that you put into it, but I feel like organ is just another level of coordination that I just-- I don't know how you do all the different things and, and it sounds so good. Like how, how, how do you learn to layer the use of your foot, and then you have both registers and all that stuff. Like, that's just amazing to me.

[00:08:32] Gloria Grace Rand: I, I don't know, but I guess it helped that I started young. I think I was seven years old and I started taking lessons to do it. And it just always seemed natural to me. Whereas like playing the piano, I can't understand how people play the piano because that's just, I'm in awe of people who can play the piano because especially with using the left hand and just making this intricate music, I'm like, well, you're just like, so, so I can relate in that way to how you feel because I, the organ to me is easier and fun. Whereas the piano seems much more challenging.

[00:09:07]Lindsey Dinneen: What is the hardest instrument that you've learned how to play, do you think?

[00:09:11]Gloria Grace Rand: Actually, the flute. The flute was my nemesis because our band director used to say "needs work on her embouchure. And to be able to get your, your mouth just right to be able to get that clear tone. I was okay. But I found the saxophone much easier to play. It was something about the reed instead was easier and I was much better playing the saxophone than I was with the flute. So yeah. Although I will say, the guitar I'm still not great at doing, like, super sophisticated chords, because if it is hard to press in and to get your fingers, especially like, I don't have the biggest hands I think. And maybe that's part of it. So it's hard to be able to necessarily like press all of those strings down, especially like your pinky finger to be able to get that coordinated and, and with enough strength to press down. But, you know, I can do C, G D7, D chords, those basic chords. I can play a lot of good John Denver songs. So let's put it that way.

[00:10:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. I love it. That's hilarious. Well, that's really cool. I'm glad that you were able to pick it back up and that it does still bring you joy. I think that's, that's so special. It is so important to find those things and to engage in them because it is a crazy world and we all need those outlets. And so, yeah, I'm so glad to hear that you're still doing it. That's, that's wonderful. Well, and obviously you've also had quite the illustrious career as a writer and you know, now starting off by writing for other people and now obviously, you know, writing your own book and such, but, so I'm curious how that journey kind of evolved for you. I mean, was it, was it something that you just sort of naturally kind of fell into? Was it challenging at the beginning learning like each different type of writing? 'Cause you've done several different styles, it sounds like.

[00:11:06] Gloria Grace Rand: So yeah, absolutely. It has been interesting and when I, like I said, when I was a kid, I loved writing in school. You know, English was like one of my favorite subjects. And I, and I enjoy writing even, I don't know, maybe writing stories or things. But when I switched my major, 'cause I was originally majoring in business and doing very badly. So eventually I switched to mass communications and getting into learning how to write business news was, I think what was advantageous for me was that I worked my way up in, in the organization so that, like I said, I started off more of  the graphic side of it. And then eventually my next job, I became the Associate Producer for Stocks. So I was working with one of the anchors of the program. His name is Paul Kangas and he would, he would talk about the stock market. That was his forte talking about, you know, what happened on the New York Stock Exchange and the American Stock Exchange.

[00:12:04] And so I, I would gather, figure out what were the best, biggest, bigger losers and gainers of that day. And, and just being around the other people, I would start picking up, even though I'd had, you know, I studied some journalism in, in school. It really helped being sort of on the job and getting that on -the -job training of learning from the other writers that were there, and the other producers and it, it's all about being able to be very concise and get your message across quickly because a lot of the stories would be like 30 second stories or that you would have to write. And, and it was great 'cause they, they allowed me to, to start off with writing small parts of the show there. We would do like a local segment for Florida stocks. And so I started writing some of those stories and, and then eventually got to write for the program itself. So it was great being able to have training and, and have people encouraging me along the way in order to do that.

[00:13:08] And then it was interesting. Before I started my copywriting career, I was actually doing a lot of part-time volunteer work for my kids' schools. I started writing press releases for them, and I was working on their newsletter, the school newsletter and writing articles for that. And when I started doing the copywriting was like, oh, the stuff I was doing for the school was actually the same type of writing I could actually get paid for that. It didn't even, didn't even dawn on me at the time, but that was a career. I was just trying to help out, you know, and I, I'd worked for a TV station, so it was like, sure, I can, I can do this stuff too. I can figure out how to write a press release and send it to our local newspaper and things like that. So it's just been this, this way of evolving that then when I started learning how to do copywriting, it wasn't that far removed from what I was already doing, because the same principles hold. You've got to grab somebody's attention really quickly, get to, get to the point on a website, just like you would do writing for someone who's listening you know, watching a television show.

[00:14:17]So it's been interesting how everything is sort of built on it. I guess, you know, each thing that I did, I sort of picked up a new skill and was able to keep evolving from it. And, and just being able to, in doing my business, I started a blog. So I started writing a lot of articles for that. And I think that also then helped in being able to really start writing a longer form and to actually write a book. Although that, that book process took me a lot longer than I thought. And I, as I said, I'm very spiritually minded and I got a lot of help in writing this book because I do not take all the credit for it because it was all, I was like asking for inspiration a lot and to be able to get it, in fact, even the idea for the book itself came during a meditation one morning. And this voice in my head said, "You should write a book about love." And I'm like, "I do marketing. What, where is this coming from? This makes no sense to me." But as is often the case, the reason I had to write a book about love was because I had to learn I love myself, and that's what I was able to do in the process of writing that book. So it was, wow. Yeah, it was not the easiest process, but one that was definitely very worthwhile and I'm glad, glad I got through it. It's very nice to be able to actually have the book in my hands. Now it was such a dream for so long and to be able to like, wow, it's really there.

[00:15:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean, I can only imagine how thrilling it is when you're just, you're like, finally I have this like actual physical copy of this labor of love that I've been working on forever. That's, that's a good moment. Well, you mentioned, you know, having the inspiration sort of coming from, or at least part of the inspiration coming from, you know, your sister's battle with cancer. Do you mind sharing more about sort of how that impacted your work?

[00:16:18] Gloria Grace Rand: Yeah, absolutely. It was, it was a big part of it. Yeah. And in fact, the idea for the book came yeah, two months before she transitioned. It was the end of 2016. And like I said, I know now it was, it was the reason was because I needed to, to learn that.  She was my older sister. She was 10 years older than me and lived out in Arizona. I live in Florida, so I was going out there as often as I could to be with her during that battle that she was engaged in and, you know, initially I grieved a lot when she was gone, cause she was, she was like my cheerleader, you know, she was the person who was always encouraging me in my business and always telling me, you know, you're doing a good job and, and I really miss that when she was gone.

[00:17:05] But now with, you know, some time and, and going through writing the book, I can really look back on number one, looking back on the time that we got to spend together was great despite everything because we really got to connect in a way that we hadn't that much. Because of this ten-year difference we had, we had really two different childhoods. So we would spend, you know, a lot of times comparing notes on how we and, and just, we were able to put together some good memories. I actually write about one of the things in the book one time was, this was the year before she passed, I was out there before Christmas and we decided to make Christmas cookies and we made the, the kind that she always loved, which I, which I love too. So it's basically a sugar cookie. And so I'm, I'm, you know, made the batter and I'm rolling out the dough and I'm flattening the cookies and she's like, you know, you're not flattening them enough. They need to be flattered. And I'm like, okay, fine. You know, press them down a little bit more and then put them in the oven.

[00:18:07] And it wasn't, it was just so annoying that she was right. Like they really did turn out better. You know, so, but it's like, we were able to do things like that. And, and that's like a memory that I hold with me, you know, now forever, because it was, it was a lot of fun and, and, you know, and of course she was, you know, being her big sister ways and just saying how, you know, she was right. And I was wrong and okay. And it's also again, in writing the book, I incorporated some of the things that she went through as well as I did. We had not the greatest of childhoods. My dad was an alcoholic and my mom had a bit of a temper. And so it wasn't, it wasn't easy for either one of us. And, and it affected both of us really in, in, in our business.

[00:18:55] In fact, cause we sort of had doubts about ourselves and, and our self-esteem and, and even when I was writing the book, I was, I was working on one section that the V in love actually stands for value your uniqueness. And I realized as I'm trying to get this book done, trying to get it to the publisher because I wanted to have it published by February. Cause that was when my sister's birthday was and I thought February 21st would be perfect. So I'm trying to get this book done and I'm like, geez, I didn't write much on this section probably because I need to work on this a little bit more.  I'm not valuing my own uniqueness a bit, but, anyway, for whatever reason, I was drawn to start looking through some of her, her notebooks and I was trying to check a date or something.

[00:19:43] And I came across a section that she had written about where she was talking about, you know, struggling that of  self-worth and why she wasn't even able to fight the cancer. Because, you know, thinking that like, she wasn't worthy to be able to survive this. And you know, and it was like, you know, my heart felt for her. And at the same time, it was also a good reminder that it was like, I needed to know to see how she was experiencing this and, and to be able to even share that in the book for others who, you know, may be suffering from self doubt and, and, and not valuing their own worthiness. And so she's still around helping me. I guess the point I want to make here is that even though she's not, not here physically I still feel her presence and her directing me and helping me out and being the big sister, you know, and really, really still, still helping me from beyond which is, which is quite remarkable.

[00:20:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And that's so special to have gotten to share those memories. Of course, I mean, and, and then be able to, to use them to help not only inspire yourself and, and value yourself and learn all that, but to then share that with others. That's a really powerful story. So thank you for sharing about that. And then I know you now have a podcast as well. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that and maybe what you chat about on it?

[00:21:14] Gloria Grace Rand: Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to. Yeah. It's called Live Love Engage, which is actually the same name as my book. And I, I started about a little over a year ago as a way to help me, frankly, write the book. I was thinking that I would be able to do some episodes where I could kind of talk about some of the things I was writing about to really help me to crystallize it. And yeah. I had done a podcast about five years earlier. And that time it was all about online marketing. And so I didn't want to really lose that, but I wanted to put something more into it. So the way I describe it as it's, it's practical advice from a spiritual perspective to help entrepreneurs to create more impact, influence, and income, and what the Live Love Engage is about is being able to live fully, love deeply and engage authentically. And, so this time around, instead of doing it five days a week, which is what I was doing before, which was insane. ,And I burnt myself out. This time, I'm doing interviews in addition to doing my own solo episodes. And so I do at least one interview a week sometimes, especially during the height of the pandemic last year, I was even doing a couple a week.

[00:22:27]Yeah, right. Yeah. I was doing like about two, two interviews a week and it's been so wonderful to be able to talk with so many different people and to be able to get their perspective. I've talked with a lot of, you know, authors and coaches and, and other, other marketing folk too. Cause I also do, you know, again, offer practical advice on how to grow your business, but a lot of times, I'm also talking with people who deal with a mindset issues. Cause the one thing I've learned in being in business for myself, as opposed to when I was an employee, is that, and even dealing with some of my other clients is that you can have all the best tools. You can have a social media presence, you know, all over the place. But if you have a mindset that you're really not worthy to be successful, or that, you know, you've got some types of limiting beliefs around money, that maybe you're not meant to have a lot of money, then you're not going to be successful in business. Even though you might have the best website and you've got a team, even as having a team of people maybe working for you, you're still going to be butting up against a wall because it's really what you think and believe about yourself that is going to have a big impact in how you actually can succeed in business as well as in life for that matter, too.

[00:23:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. Well, that's exciting. And so I'm, I'm curious for our listeners who would like to maybe purchase your book, find out more about your podcast or kind of follow your work, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:24:02]Gloria Grace Rand: Absolutely. You can go to my website, gloriarand.com. And you will be able to see I've got the actual, you can see that link to my podcast is there. Of course, it's on iTunes and all those lovely podcast platforms and they're everywhere, but I do have it on my website. There's a tab that'll take you to the podcast as well as a link to take you to my book. Although you can also go to LiveLoveEngagebook.com. And you can order it there and it's, although it is available on Amazon, as well as on barnesandnoble.com as well. But yeah, and then I'm on, I'm on social media. So as I said, I'm on Facebook and Instagram and all those, all those fun places. If you could look for Gloria Grace Rand and you'll be able to connect with me there as well.

[00:24:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Well, I always ask my guests the same three questions and I'd love to do that with you if that's okay. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:06] Gloria Grace Rand: Oh, let's see. Art, art to me is expression. And it, because it can have so many different forms and, and I think it is, it's a way of expressing who you are, what your thoughts and beliefs are and it's a way of being able to just communicate you through whatever different modality you find, whether that's writing, whether it's music, whether it's actual painting and drawing. Cause there's so many different ways to be able to express. So yeah, I think, I mean, that's what it is. It's a way of being able to express, express yourself out there in the world.

[00:25:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:25:56]Gloria Grace Rand: Well, the most important role-- I think it's just being true to who you are and to trust yourself to be able to communicate whatever it is that you want to communicate. Because if you're going about doing something in the arts to please someone else, it's not really ultimately going to be successful. I think you've gotta be able to do whatever it is from your heart to really be able to please yourself. And it may not please everybody. And that's okay. But as long as you are conveying what you want to convey from your heart, then it is going to touch someone else's heart.

[00:26:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts the work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's program notes or titles or the inspiration that went in behind it, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context so it's left entirely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they will.

[00:27:12] Gloria Grace Rand: I think, I think it's a both/ and because I think it just depends on, how you want to put it out there in the world? Because I, I know that there are some people who will do art-- especially I think, and maybe this is more even with painters in particular who, who do want to just let people interpret it.  But there's certainly nothing wrong with it being inclusive either and being able to give people maybe some guidance what it should be. That's an interesting question.  I can see justifications for both. So yeah, I think it's up to the artist to decide ultimately, because they're the ones who are creating the art, and if they want to provide guidance, that's their prerogative. And if they want to just leave it up to whoever to be able to make their own judgment, that's, that's their prerogative as well.

[00:28:07]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. Perfect. Well, first of all, thank you so very much for being here today, Gloria. I really appreciate your time and your stories and sharing with us your inspiration and all the cool ways that you have interacted with art over the years. And I'm really excited to continue to follow your journey. And congratulations on the book. That's so exciting, and also the podcast of course as well, but I know, I know it's just such a big deal when you can see that copy of the book in your hands. So congratulations on all of that and again, thank you for your time today and, and your inspiration that you're sharing with everyone. I really appreciate it.

[00:28:50] Gloria Grace Rand: Well, thank you. Thank you so much. And, and I, I love what you're doing for this podcast, because I think it is great to be able to let people know a little bit more about art. So, so I applaud you for what you're doing. So thank you.

[00:29:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:29:17] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:29:26]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg  or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

In today's episode, I welcome Doug Motel! Doug expresses himself through a wide variety of mediums, including theater and fine art and song-writing, and his episode contains multiple value bombs of advice for aspiring artists, along with the importance of making every moment count in life. (Fun fact: the cover image of this week's episode is a photo of Doug himself!)

Get in touch with Doug Motel: https://dougmotel.com | www.mindsalad.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 49 - Doug Motel

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am thrilled to have as my guest today, Doug Motel. He is an artist that expresses himself through a wide variety of mediums, including theater and fine art and song writing. And I cannot wait to hear all about it. So thank you so much for being here today, Doug.

[00:00:54] Doug Motel: Lindsey, thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

[00:00:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love to hear how you kind of got started. Maybe just what inspired you and then what you're up to these days?

[00:01:06] Doug Motel: Yeah. Well, how I got started-- that really goes really far back. I became really, I would say fascinated, but really the more appropriate word is "obsessed" with portraiture. When I was a little kid, when I was about nine, I used to just draw people's faces all day long, sometimes 20 to 30 portraits a day. And so, you know, when I was 10, 11 you know, I was drawing all the time and I think that, you know, it was a bit of a retreat into a more private space because I didn't, I grew up in an environment that really didn't feel safe to me in my, my family. And I felt like art and drawing was a great refuge. So there was a bit of a, a shift for me when I think I was, I think I was 11. I had done this portrait. It was a political cartoon. And I really, I was really proud of it. And, but I couldn't, I couldn't find it one morning. I woke up and I couldn't find it. It was not in my big stack of drawings. And I asked my mom, you know, "Did you see this cartoon that I had drawn on? I couldn't, I couldn't find it."

[00:02:11] And, and my mother said, "Yeah, your, you know, daddy took it to the poker game last night." And I just said, "Why, why, why would he do that?" And she said, "Because he wanted to show the other, you know, dads the drawing." And up until that point, I really felt honestly invisible to my father. I didn't think that he even, you know, had any idea that I loved art or that I, you know, did art and the fact that he had taken that time, the interest to like secretly, without ever saying anything to me, like he never said anything to me. Like that's a really great drawing. He just, behind my back while I was sleeping, took it so that he could show it cause he was proud of it.

[00:02:58] And I think that there was like a little thing that went off in my brain and I thought, "Oh, this whole thing about being able to draw is like some kind of currency. You know, it gives me some sort of value." And you know, I have to say sadly as a little boy, I, I didn't feel like I had any value. So that was a moment where I thought, "Oh, okay, I get it. Here's this thing that I do." And so, then I began to really, really nurture it and I had a lot of those, "How to Paint a Landscapes" books and how to paint, you know, in watercolor. And I really dove into watercolor, you know, as a 12 year old. And I started showing my work when I was, yeah, when I was 12. I lied my age so that I could be in an art show that was for adults.

[00:03:43] And I actually won a ribbon for a still life that I did. And I just felt like it was the thing that was like the one thing that I could. Do that would give me some sort of value. And that was until I discovered theater also when I was 12, I auditioned for a community theater production. And I got in and that was like, that was kind of like the world going from black and white into Technicolor. The idea of being in a community with other artists and, you know, being in front of an audience too, and getting people clapping for me instead of it feeling so threatening or unsafe as it did at home. That was a big turning point for me. And, and so I would say since then, I I've sort of-- like if you imagine a console where you're like at a sound board and you've got one dimmer switch. You've got two dimmer switches for me. One, the one switch, which would be the fine arts and painting and drawing. And the other dimmer switch would be storytelling. In a theater setting, I would say like my, my life has been kind of a, you know, between moving those two dimmers up and down, back and forth a bit. Was that was that too much?

[00:04:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. No, no, no. I love hearing the background. Thank you. Yeah. So, and I like that illustration , they each have their turns, essentially, and which one comes up a little bit brighter today versus the next day.

[00:05:06] Doug Motel: Yeah. Like I'll go through these periods where I'll really feel like I've got something that I want to say. You know, there was a time when I was living in Los Angeles and a dear friend of mine had been murdered by just a random person in her apartment building. And I just felt the, you know, the, the sense of grief, not just my own personal grief, but all the people that, that knew her.  She was a very special person. And I felt like I needed to, to process through it some way artistically and I, I thought about doing it in fine art, but ultimately I decided to write, write a play. And I wrote a play that had about 12 characters in it, and I played all the characters and it was really an homage to her spirit and very much about people going on a spiritual Odyssey when something tragic happens.

[00:05:59] Kind of like, you know, when something tragic happens, kind of like what we're going through right now, you're always at a fork in the road. You could either use it as a, as a way to affirm how horrible the world can be, or you use it as an opening for some sort of a healing. And so I wanted to  turn that into a story and I was just lucky because it, it wound up becoming you know, it really found an audience and I wound up, you know, being lucky enough to win a lot of awards in Los Angeles Theater for that. And, and it was supposed to move to a New York theater. That's why I moved back here onto the East coast. And, and in fact, if your listeners want to go on Amazon Prime and search "Shiva Arms," "S H I V A" and then "arms," that's the name of the play. And you can see a, a a filming of me performing it in the theater. So that's an example of, you know, I just didn't know. I knew I wanted to do something artistic to express what I, I felt, I discovered about what, what happens when you're faced with this kind of unexpected really horror, horrible.

[00:07:06] It felt like a horror, like being in a horror movie and how do we respond? And for me, the the, the, the thing to do at that time was to to make theater out of it. Now, the pandemic has really been a place for me to go back to paint. And I've been doing a lot, a lot of painting and I've been painting abstract watercolors with very carefully chosen colors that I believe suggest healing and calm. And in fact, I'm calling the whole series I'm doing right now, "Remedy Paintings" to remedy from the trauma that many of us are going through from this whole pandemic.

[00:07:43]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah, that's incredible, and so helpful and so needed right now, because I think, you know, art has always been necessary, but I think in a time like this, it's, it's even more so, or at least there's more awareness to how much it's needed and, and how much transformative power it has.

[00:08:03] Doug Motel: Yeah. Yeah. Because art is something that links us, that brings us together.  You know, of course theater brings us together physically when we're in the same room. We can't, we can't be doing that right now, but even just, you know, looking at a piece of art and, you know, right now what I'm doing is abstract art, where, where I'm not painting, I'm not painting things, you know, I'm not painting, you know, people, places or things that are, you know, known. But I'm just using color and shapes and lines to suggest a feeling. But it does connect you when you look at a piece of abstract art and you sort of let your, your mind go. It connects you to the artist and, and, and can, can connect you to the, the, the thought that anyone who looks at this art, also looks at this art is having a shared experience with you. And we need it. We need it now.

[00:08:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Now, you know, I know that from the very beginning, it sounds like you taught yourself, and of course you had some resources through books and things like that to help with that. But did you ever go and have some more formal like art classes or anything like that? Or are you really just, you just kept exploring your own art and learning on your own.

[00:09:20] Doug Motel: Well, when I was 12, I convinced my parents to let me study privately with a woman. Her name was Lorraine Watson, she has since passed, but you know, kind of like you would drop your kid off at violin lessons every week. They would drop me off at Mrs. Watson's house. And I would, she, she did teach me perspective. She taught me you know, she taught me drawing. She did teach me watercolor. She specialized in a Japanese Sumi painting and she taught me a little bit of that. So yeah, I studied privately. And then when I was in high school, I was enrolled in our local vocational school and I studied commercial art, but that was really the extent of it. I dropped out of high school and just really to get away from my environment and I moved to New York City and I studied acting, but I didn't go to university or in things that.

[00:10:17]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so then from that opportunity in New York city, how did your life trajectory go? 'Cause it sounds like, I mean, obviously you've had so many amazing different experiences, but I'm just curious how, how you got from maybe New York City to LA and just, have you just always been an artist? Is that kind of been your, your path in, in many different forms?

[00:10:42] Doug Motel: Well, I mean, I've always been an artist, but I'm very, very little of my time has been making money doing art. So I've had a million jobs. I've had, I honestly have had more jobs than I could even imagine doing all sorts of things. Most of them legal. Some, some of them perhaps morally questionable, but I did what I could do, you know, as a teenager, living in New York City and not knowing anybody. I did what I could do to survive. But when I was 19, I started performing in comedy clubs. So I would write these little plays that always had some sort of message or theme about human nature, you know, unpacking the nature of reality. I've always just been very interested in things like that. And so I would write these little plays and I would do them in cabarets and comedy clubs in New York City.

[00:11:42] And so that was the main thrust of my, my art, but, you know, so I was essentially a stand-up comic, but I did very different-- the work I did was more, more like what you might've seen Andy Kaufman. My influences were people like Richard Pryor, Robin Williams, Lily Tomlin, people that would do a lot of character work and not necessarily tell jokes per se, the jokes were locked into the characters. And then one day when I was, I think 24, someone saw me performing and then booked me into a, a place in Santa Monica. And so that was kind of, you know, it, I, I went, I flew to LA and I literally got off the plane. I saw that Hollywood sign. I saw how warm it was. And I was like, "Okay, I am moving here."

[00:12:32] And actually within a week, even though I was just out there to reform within a week, I found an apartment. I found a job as an apartment manager where I'd get a free apartment in exchange for, you know, taking care of the building. And then I flew back to New York. I gave my apartment away. I got one of those drive away cars where you, someone asks you to drive their car, you know, for free. But I had never, I had never driven a car before, so I had to get a couple of drivers' license drivers' classes. So I got some class, I took like two driving lessons. And then I packed up one of those drive away cars that I drove across country and I moved to LA and I thought I was, I would live there forever, but when "Shiva Arms" seemed to find an audience and I was encouraged to move back to New York to do it perhaps on Broadway.

[00:13:20]I went back to New York, but unfortunately it was just a few days before 9/11. And I happened to been down in front of the World World Trade Center on 9/11, 'cause I had a temp job in an office facing the World Trade Center. And so that that's a whole other, if you ever have me back as a guest, some other time, I can tell you what that was like to look out the window and see all those people jumping. I was really traumatized by that event. 'Cause I had, cause I had left Los Angeles, I left everything that I really had built up to move to New York just to have that happen. And so yeah. So yeah, that changed some things.

[00:14:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my gosh. Wow. Well, your story is so incredible how just you've had all these different experiences and opportunities and it's so cool to hear just the way that you got from A to B to Z and all those fun things. And so, yeah, thank you for sharing that. Oh my goodness. And so do you do stand up comedy anymore, or?

[00:14:25] Doug Motel: Well, you know, there's no, there's no place to do it now, really, you know and I, I was working on a piece a little bit when this happened . Right now I'm very obsessed with the fine arts and the abstract painting. It's hard for me to think beyond that, but my chances are pretty good that I'll someday write another, I call it, you know, they really are plays, they're solo plays that I just happened to play all the characters. And I've had, I think, seven of these produced. So it's very possible that I'll want to do another one, but right now my focus really is on painting. It's so easy. Like you don't have to, like when you're performing you, I have to like get in shape. You know, I have to, you know, do yoga all the time. I have to make sure I don't get sick. I have to vocalize. I have to run lines every day. You know, and then just, there's a lot of preparation and, and also collaboration. You're dependent on other people, the theaters, the producers, there's so much that's involved in it. It can be very, very rewarding, but it also can be very exhausting and, you know, painting-- it's just so solitary.

[00:15:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, and what a perfect time to be obsessed with this particular project, because it's not like there are tons of opportunities to perform live, so yeah, I think that timing worked out beautifully.

[00:15:51] Doug Motel: Yeah, I think so, too.

[00:15:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, I'm curious. I mean, you obviously-- well, my interpretation is-- you are incredibly brave and all the different things that you've done to step out of your comfort zone time and time again-- or just what you're familiar with, maybe not even comfort zone-- and go for the next thing is just awesome. So I'm curious, how did that come about? Or what advice could you give somebody who is maybe hoping to take, you know, a leap of faith and not there yet?

[00:16:23] Doug Motel: Oh yes. So you know, there's some cliches that you know, we hear them all the time. So we've become immune to them. They've lost their impact, but, you know, they're cliches for a reason because they often are true. And the cliche that people have become sort of immune to-- which is very true, though, in spite of that-- is that this isn't the rehearsal. This is the thing. This is life we're living now. This is not a dress rehearsal. This is the show itself. And I just feel like there's so much about our society that has us focused on what's missing. It's almost like, you know, you're given a donut and all we can focus on is that hole in the middle, the empty hole. And we don't see the sugary treat. I feel like our whole society is like a cult and it's like the cult of more, you need to have more, you need to be more successful. You need to have more likes on social media, you need to have more money, more and more, more, and it's like this carrot that's dangled in front of you. Many people don't even know what it is that they're looking for, what it is that they want more of, but they just know like they need to have more.

[00:17:36] And I would say that comes a point where you have to understand that there's nothing out there, all, all that this, all that life really is-- it's almost just like a bunch of pearls strung on a string. Like it's just, it's just moments. They're just a bunch of now moments strung together. That's what a life is. And if you don't seize the moment, if you don't give every moment the importance, and approach each moment with a mental posture of "this is the most important moment on my life." This is it. It's not coming. It's not around the bend. You know, it's not when I get this or when I get rid of this or when I change this. No, this is it now, because if there's something that you want or something that you feel is missing, this is the day. This is the moment to be doing something, to bring that into fruition, to bring that into your life.

[00:18:42] And I think our culture hypnotizes us into just putting that off and putting it off and any day now, and yes, I'm going to do, you know, when I'm more together or when I'm more healed or when I'm not, when I'm not so messed up or so neurotic or, or whatever. But I just say, come as you are, you know, no matter how messed up you may be or how broken you may feel, you are, you still have the agency to live for this moment, to have this moment right now be the most important moment. You know, I feel like from the beginning of time, people who were dying, people on their death bed have told us the same message year after year after year after millennium, after millennium, they say," You know, don't take it so serious."

[00:19:29] That's what they're learning and they give us this message and then they die and then they, you know, they think we're going to, you know, and then we just, we go, "Oh, wow. Yeah, don't take us as seriously." And then we forget. And then we get right back in there and we make it all very serious. And I think if you've made it serious so far, that's okay, that's over now. But right now in this moment, listening to Lindsey and I talking, all that is over, and this is a new moment for you. You're born again and you can choose again and you can take an action right now to, to move yourself closer to the circumstances that you want especially if you understand that your circumstances changing is not going to give you life, is not going to put the play button. The record button for life is on.

[00:20:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that was brilliant.

[00:20:22]Doug Motel: I've thought a lot about this. I've lost people. And I guess partly because I'm coming out of this whole period, you know, this whole period of this pandemic and I just, you know, this is it. This is it, folks.

[00:20:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's that realization and it's important and no, I'm absolutely serious. I was sitting here thinking, do you do motivational speaking as well? Because if you don't, you could.

[00:20:51]Doug Motel: Sure. I do. I have to confess that I have a, kind of a weird story, a weird backstory that, you know, sometimes I feel funny talking about, but I guess at this point, it just seems natural for me to tell you that when I was four years old, I fell off of a ladder and I had a head injury. And when I came back from the hospital that very night, I had what I guess people would call a mystical experience. And I can't say that I can explain what this is, but there was a a presence. It was like a sphere. It was like an orb, I guess, that came to me. And it said "uni verse, uni, one verse, from a song, all is one." and basically it was telling me that the whole universe was one living thing, and it came and visited me in my room and in our little apartment for a year, every single night. And it never said anything else.  At first I was very scared. I was scared because I was, I mean, that was four years old, you know, and there was this presence, you know, but then by the end of the year,  I became to really welcome it and this orb would appear. And it would just say the same thing, that "the world was one thing."

[00:22:03] And I think my whole life, Lindsey, has been unpacking that. My whole life really has been spent looking at that quote unquote "mystical experience" or whatever from that head injury and thinking, you know,  it's kind of true. If you say you look at a tree and we may think of there's, that tree is if that's a separate object, but can you separate a tree from the soil that, that the roots are in, or can you separate a tree from the sun that's coming onto it? You know, like where does tree stop and all that other stuff start? And I know I'm getting super esoteric here but, you know, these are weird things to talk about and yet when you really stop and think about it, we're just told that we're separate from each other. And all the things, but there's no real evidence. There's no evidence. And if you pull back and you look at the earth from space, earth looks like one thing. And if you pull back into farther into space, our solar system looks like it's one kind of a thing you can point to that. And  the ball that visited me when I was four, you know, telling me that everything was one, I've just spent my whole life unpacking that idea.

[00:23:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. I mean, what an incredible experience. And I love that that's kind of been the catalyst, I guess, for exploration as to your search for truth and meaning, and, right, all those things. That's really cool.

[00:23:36] Doug Motel: Yeah. I don't think I've ever done anything artistically that wasn't in some way connected to my trying to really get a deeper understanding of the nature of our reality.

[00:23:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's cool. Well, my goodness, you have such an inspiring story, not only from your own perspective and all those different experiences that you've had. But again, just your bravery, your willingness to be here and now and live in the moment, and what that's brought you, because you've gotten to do some really cool things. And so I just really appreciate you sharing all of that and sharing your inspiration as far as, you know, "Go for it. This is the show, that there is no dress rehearsal."

[00:24:21] Doug Motel: You know, you asked me about motivational speaking and you're right, yes. I have done a lot of that. I, I wrote a play that was about a British screenwriter being plagued by his own mind, his own inner critic. And then I wound up turning that play into a workshop, the play's called "Mind Salad" and the workshop is, you know, about how we can really identify the voice of criticism, right? And the voice in there that's, it's, it's out to get you it's, it's the voice trying to keep you from being in the now. And so I've done that workshop. I've done it for people with life-threatening illnesses. I've done it for, I think, I think if you go to mindsalad.com, there's information about that. I've done it for people in recovery. I've done it for, you know, all kinds of different organizations. I do a retreat every year.

[00:25:07]Last year I did it on Hawaii. And this year I had to do it virtually, but "Playing the Game," I did, it's called "Playing the Game" of the year. So it was "Playing the Game of 2021." And it was a three-day Zoom retreat about looking at the previous year and being complete with it, you know, the good, taking a look at the good, the bad and the ugly and really putting it to bed. And then looking at what do you want the coming year to feel like much more, I'm much more interested nowadays and how do you want it to feel? Because ultimately that's what really matters more than, you know, what do you want to accomplish? So yeah, so I do these workshops. I do coach people on this stuff too. Sometimes I say that I'm a storyteller who helps people look at the story that they're telling themselves about themselves. And I work with people in that way, so yeah, that's a whole other component of it that's, that's pretty important to me. I have a TEDx talk called "Using the Present to Create the Future." You might, you could look for that on YouTube as well.

[00:26:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Awesome. Yeah, I'm definitely going to check that out. Well, this is very exciting and I'm sure that some of our listeners would want to connect with you, follow some of your work, just see what's going on. Do you have a way for us to do that?

[00:26:25] Doug Motel: Yeah. So there's dougmotel.com. There's also dougmartel.art. And then on Instagram, there's Doug Motel Art.

[00:26:34]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect.

[00:26:35] Doug Motel: Yeah. And I'd love to hear from people. If any of this conversation got you thinking about seizing the moment, actually, it's funny, you said "This is the Show." Actually I did write a one man, a musical memoir called "This is the Show." So there's also songs. I wrote some pop songs and there's one is called, "This is the Show."

[00:26:55]Lindsey Dinneen: Very nice. Perfect. I love it. Well, okay. So I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:27:05] Doug Motel: Yeah, sure.

[00:27:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:27:13]Doug Motel: I think that art is when you actively step into creation and extend that, whatever, you know, whatever it is that created us has, I believe that whatever it is that created us has endowed us with the very same abilities, which is to create. And whenever you step into that and make a choice to create you are partaking in art. You are making art.

[00:27:45]Lindsey Dinneen:  I like it. Perfect. Okay. And then w what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:27:53]Doug Motel: Well, I think the, the role of the artist is to lead us in our evolution. I think that you know, Darwin pointed out that we evolved from creatures in the sea, you know, we keep evolving and I think that there's an assumption that evolution is just kind of like on autopilot, but I don't. I believe that we could actually hasten the pace of our evolution. We can you know steer and direct our evolution and the ones that do that are the artists. So the role of the artist is nothing short of saving humanity.

[00:28:34]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that so much. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and includes some context behind that, whether it's inspiration or program notes or title, something, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but it doesn't provide context. And so it's left entirely up to the viewer as to its interpretation.

[00:29:09] Doug Motel: Oh, well, as a multi- medium artist, I think it depends on the medium. You know, sometimes for theater, some kind of context may be very helpful to people, whether it's program notes or a prologue or something like that. It can be, you know, really helped the artist to convey the idea. As an abstract painter, I try to stay out of the way. I try not to talk too much about what I was thinking or what was behind when I was making a painting and instead just, you know, I, I feel like my paintings are similar, well, it's kind of similar to-- well, it's funny. I never thought about that til right now, but I always say, you know, people say, "Oh, you do one man shows." And I said, "Well, not really, cause like I do my bit." And then the audience does their bit because I feed off of that energy, you know, I'll throw out something into the audience and then they'll give me back some, you know, laughter or whatever, and then I'll throw it back to them. It's like a game, a toss, you know, like a game of just tossing the ball.

[00:30:14]But I just realized now that I think that's what I'm going for also with my painting, because I, half of it is me doing the painting, but then the other half of it is allowing the, the viewer to have their own experience. Sometimes people look at my paintings and they may have a  whole story. And I love that, you know, you can project onto it, you know like Rorschach tests. So in that medium it's best if I get out of the way, but I used to do very real, very, very realistic portraits. And sometimes it was helpful for me to write a little story about who the person was that I was, you know, doing the portrait of  because they were important to me historically, but maybe not a famous person.  Giving people context for who they were made their experience of enjoying the artwork even greater. So it really depends on the medium.

[00:31:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes complete sense. And I love that you have like an unpacking moment right now about your art. That's really fun. I love it. Perfect. Well, this was incredible. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for sharing your art. Thank you for what you've brought to the world and helping us to evolve. As you mentioned, I really appreciate that you've devoted your life to that and that you've stayed consistent in your mission to bring art to the world. So that's important and valuable. And thank you for doing that.

[00:31:44] Doug Motel: Thank you, Lindsey, so much for allowing me to talk about this today.

[00:31:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would highly encourage all of our listeners to check out Doug's website, see some of the work that he's done, go watch the video on Amazon, and all of the other opportunities you have to connect with him. Obviously he is incredibly inspiring and I'm sure that all of us will be so excited to continue to follow his journey. So thank you again, Doug, for being here and thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:32:27]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:32:35]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg  or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

In today's episode, I welcome Kristin Beale! Kristin is an author and illustrator, with a powerful story to share about overcoming an accident that left her paralyzed from the waist down. She shares her advice for aspring artists, her experience publishing three books and producing a TV show, and so much more. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of Kristin holding a copy of her book, "Greater Things!"

Get in touch with Kristin Beale: https://kristinbeale.com/

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 48 - Kristin Beale

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Kristin Beale. She is an author and illustrator and she has incredible stories to share. And I just am so excited to dive in. Thank you so much for being here, Kristin.

[00:00:51] Kristin Beale: I am so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, and I would love if you would just share a little bit, maybe about your background, kind of what got you into what you do now and all that fun stuff, if you don't mind.

[00:01:05] Kristin Beale: Yeah, definitely. So I have quite a story. When I was 14 years old in 2005, I was in a jet ski accident. It was the summer before my sophomore year of high school. So I was about to turn 15 years old. The accident was tragic, life-changing, all those things. It killed the driver of my jet ski and it paralyzed me from the mid- torso down. I had a traumatic brain injury and a spinal cord injury. Doctors told my parents  "Your daughter is never going to live." Or, you know, "If she does, she's not going to breathe or talk or swallow or all that stuff." And then I did, I'm talking, breathing, swallowing. So they, then they said, "She's going to be a vegetable." first of all, 'cause I had a traumatic brain injury, and then if "She's not, she's going to, I'm not going to have, I had a traumatic brain injury on the left side, so I'm not going to have the ability to use my right side," is what they said. And they said "I'm never going to feel or move below my injury level again."

[00:01:55] So that's a lot to load onto my poor parents, but they did, and I have overcome all those things. I am not a vegetable, et cetera, and I'm still working. And I started, I started on my journey to recovery in going to California, traveling the world, getting stem cells, et cetera, to regain feeling and movement in my lower body to walk and feel again and prove the doctor's wrong on that. So I got out of the hospital in December of 2005. And then I came back and then I went to California for, you know, a month, worked out five or four hours a day, five days a week, just out of control, came back, started my sophomore year of high school. And I was looking for a easy class to take, and I heard that the teacher of creative writing was kind of a slacker and also you can't really, you know, fail a creative writing class. So I took a creative writing class. I really, I kind of, this is where I can start to kind of discover my creativity.

[00:02:51]I discovered that I love to write. I'm pretty good at it. I have a lot of things going on that are new experiences that I can write about. And to accompany it, so I took creative writing class and I took an art class, two classes that you can't really, you know, do badly in because it's all subjective. So creative writing, I realized that I love to write. In art class, I realized that I love to draw and, you know, they were both there. I use them both as kind of outlets to discovering this new world of disability and all of this new things going on in my life. And it was kind of like a venting, but it was a relaxing 'cause you know, all the craziness of my new paralyzed world. But I'm, you know, just in my drawings and I was just expressing myself that way and I'm, you know, expressing myself and my frustrations in a way that I don't in my normal life, 'cause I'm like a super sweet girl and you know, it was kind of an outlet for me.

[00:03:43]So I started to make drawings when I was 15 years old surrounding my disability. I kind of define my character. I drew, I drew Molly. My main character is a girl in a wheelchair, which is me. And I'm just going through, you know, situations in life, which I really go through. And I actually, for the first three years of me kind of discovering how to draw her, that I liked to draw. I did a comic every day. I did a three block comic every day. Just like things that happen, usually, you know, mundane, just boring things that happened. I did it every single day for the whole entire year. And then on Christmas, I just gave my mom, you know, the year's worth of drawings, because I didn't really care 'cause I didn't really want them anymore. And she wanted them and it's an easy Christmas present and it's just like, you know, a year of a day in the life of me. And that's when I kinda really started to get into it.

[00:04:35]So, it was my first book "Greater Things" in 2017, and that was a book that's about like the weekend before my accident, where we see, we meet this boy I have a really big crush on, and the next weekend he actually hits me in the jet ski and it's kind of the weekend before my accident, all the way up to 2014. So I'm traveling the world, I'm working out, I'm getting stem cell surgery. I'm trying all these adaptive sports. I'm graduating high school in college, doing all these things, published a book in 2014 in March and in February the month before it came out, I quit my job cause I, you know, I'm not interested in mortgage banking. I was looking for an excuse to get out of it. I published a book. So I said, "Okay, please God, make me successful in this enough to like eat and sustain my life." So the book was a great success. And three months after my book came out, I said, "All right, I quit my job. I either need to write another book or I need to get a job." So I decided I'll write another book. So I started, so what I did, as I said, what do I do? A lot of that, I know a lot about that I can write a book about, and my answer was go on first dates.

[00:05:39] So I was very, very, very single at the time. So I, you know, updated my profile in-- Bumble was my app of choice, updated my profile picture. I went on 32 dates in two and a half months, and that looks like a lot. I know it's crazy. A lunch date, a dinner date, you know, four different boys a week. Kinda like at the end of it, of course, as you can imagine, I've kind of lost my desire for you know, a successful relationship. And I'm just kinda chasing the story because these boys were that I went on dates with were like way too rude. Everyone can relate to a bad first date, but throw disability into it and dating gets a little bit more difficult. So what I was doing is, I was going on these dates. I was enduring these, you know, it makes me sound like such a warrior, but like I was enduring these rude comments, the like, the bad jokes, like the offensive jokes and just mainly just rude comments.

[00:06:32] Gross people are gross dates, I guess, in my experience. And I was going home and I was making a comic of them, changing their name like that, getting home from the date that night changes their name, making comic of it and moving on. It was my way of coping, I guess, but it was also documenting these dates and trying to add a humorous angle on this very relatable situation. So at the end of it, when I reached 32, I said, "I can't do this anymore. Like, I've had enough. I need, I think, I finally have enough." So I published a comic book called "Date Me" and and it had all, all my first dates in there. And it also had comics around being single, being in a wheelchair, like, you know,  people make or jokes they make, or things people say, or just like kind of adding a funny angle on a kind of crummy situation.

[00:07:19]And I published "Date Me" in 2018. And, you know, I started drawing in 2015. It's been a very fun book to publish because I'm, you know, it was a subject that is a lot of dating as a subject. It's a lot of fun, but, and it was also fun because these guys, I went on dates with some of them, like five or six of them, like, "Hey Kristin, what have you been doing?" I'm like, actually I published a book and you're in it. I changed your name. And some of them bought it, some of them didn't and never talked to me again and all of them didn't talk to me again, but I was completely honest. So if you don't want to like be published in a book, just don't be mean to me

[00:07:55]Lindsey Dinneen: That's just great life advice in general. Just-- if you don't want to end up in someone's book, just be nice. Yeah. Easy.

[00:08:02]Kristin Beale: I told them I was an author. What did they expect?

[00:08:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. I love it. I love it. Oh my gosh. Well, first of all, you are such an overcomer and I just love your story. Thank you for sharing that. And gosh, I, I feel like you probably glossed over how challenging all of those-- I mean, you had so much to overcome, but like kudos to you for just never giving up, never accepting the doctor's word for it, that you couldn't do something just because they said. So good for you.

[00:08:36] Kristin Beale: Thank you. I gave you the quick and easy for the full version. You can read "Greater Things," but...

[00:08:40]Lindsey Dinneen:  Perfect. I love it. Well, and with "Date Me," I just, first of all, that sounds like such a great premise. I can't wait to read the book, but do you have-- like, what is the funniest story that you encounter that kind of stands out to you?

[00:08:54] Kristin Beale: Oh my gosh. So, funny depends on your definition of funny. Once I became into the more callous zone, like the ruder they get or the more ridiculous it is, the funnier it is because I'm just like, whatever I'm thinking in my head, "Whatever, I'm going to publish you in a comic book when I get home" or like When I'm going to make a comic of this later. So things like-- one of the most relatable to wheelchair users comic that I have is, I guess you would call them jokes. The jokes people make like, you know,  "Do you have a license to drive that thing?" Or like "Slow down, you're breaking the speed limit," but stupid things like that. Like, " We need backup, backup blinker so we can know when you're backing up, or like blinkers to know which way you're turning." Just like all the vehicle jokes around my wheelchair. It's like exhausting, but for whatever reason, like people love to make it.

[00:09:41] It's not offensive to me because whatever, I don't care, I'll make a comic of you. So it's fine. But I can, but I can take that comic, 'cause I, in one of the comics I put, I know there's six block comics, so I have five, five of those jokes. I have six of those jokes, I'll put together in one big comic and I can show that to a wheelchair user and they can just, I mean, laugh in agreement because everyone's heard them because everyone makes something. I don't know why people make them. It's just like, it's not offensive, but it's just dumb. It's just bad humor. No offense to listeners who make those jokes, but it's just not fun.

[00:10:12]Lindsey Dinneen:  No, they should probably hear that too, right? Like, you know, things that are funny to you are probably just like ridiculous to the people you're telling them to. So maybe just stop, just stop, to sum up. Oh man. Okay. Well, yeah, that makes complete sense. So now that you've done that and you've gone on from there, it sounds like you're still on a journey to continue to be, you know, writing more books and maybe doing other things too. I got kind of a hint to that before we started recording.

[00:10:45] Kristin Beale: Yeah. So being an entrepreneur, working from like saying I'm not going to get a job, and working for myself is a constant, you know, at all hours of the day. I guess not struggle, but a constant job because I have to keep, keep the money coming in and keep doing things, keep doing projects. But that being said, it is so much fun and I love it. And I love my work so much. And I like don't mind if I have to, you know, write for a little bit past five o'clock. I don't, I don't mind the work at all. So what I'm doing, two things, the "Date Me"  comic book of all those dates.  Last June, I was approached by Salt Fire Studio and their local production company, and they told me that they wanted to turn "Date Me" into a TV show. And before I lost my mind, because I had, I had done this before, cause I had two people, two producers come to me and say, they want to make "Greater Things" a video.

[00:11:39]So I get very, very excited and then it falls through and then I'm very, very disappointed, you know, as it goes. So when Tyler Darden, the owner and producer of Salt Fire Studio, he told me that he wanted to make "Date Me" to a TV show. I'm like, "Yeah. Okay. Like, let's talk when, when you get serious." So about a year later, Tyler comes to me and he says," All right, I'm ready to make it into a show." And in about a month of, you know, my dream coming true, we cast a girl to play Kristin from the other side of the country. She's from California. We had to cast my best friend, Katie, my dad for the first episode, my dad, and four dates, four different men. In the first episode, I go on seven dates. And so much fun. We recorded it. We put out the pilot episode, it's on YouTube. If you search "Date Me." We're also on Instagram as "Date Me" show and Facebook, at "Date Me" series, and we are raising money to make episode two and the rest of season one. So you know, we're on Patrion and stuff. But it's so much fun in the videos out there.

[00:12:39] So I want, I'm excited to be able to share my experience and, you know, my funny and bummer situations with everyone. So everyone go on YouTube and watch the first episode. So that's, that's my active, latest project, but also my ongoing projects. So ever since "Date Me "the comic book came out, was published in 2018, I started a weekly comic Instagram page where it's just every week on Instagram, it's every Tuesday comes out. And it's just like something that happened during the week. Something I thought about just something funny that it wrote it's it is six block comics again, because that's my style. And it's found on Instagram at Greater Things Comics. So that's a really fun thing. So if nothing else, check that out and follow along, because I have a lot of fun with that because it's my ability to consistently put out art, and consistently have a reason-- I mean, there's no reason for me to be doing that, doing those weekly comics, except for it's fun for me, 'cause I'm not like making any money off of it, but it's, it's fun to like have an audience and being able to share my art. And that's been one of the biggest blessings out of this ability to share and ability to have an audience.

[00:13:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's amazing. And to help inspire other people because your story is so amazing. And then you're able to also talk about the fact that art was such a big part of, you know, finding out what you wanted to do with your life, which is so cool. I mean, I think it's just ironic and, and entertaining how, you know, at first it was like, well, these are the two classes that will  be kind of easier credits and then you end up falling in love with it. Like, I love that. Wow. That's fantastic. Congratulations. That's such a big deal for this TV show and everything. So this is so exciting. Oh, my word. Yeah. Congratulations.

[00:14:28] Kristin Beale: Thank you. Life is so much fun. Life is so much fun. It's a little bit stressful when you're working for yourself and you're unemployed, but it's one of the best things that I have ever done. 'Cause it's, it's just so much fun 'cause I'm doing what I love every day and, you know, and people, people say that they're like, "Oh, I love my job." And I've always wondered, "Do they really love their job?" Like, "Do they really look forward to going into work in the morning?" And then I quit my job and started my own thing and I truly just love my job.

[00:14:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and speaking of that, because that is such a big undertaking, is there any kind of advice you would give somebody who might be interested in doing that? Like they, they want to take their side gig, their side passion, and make it their full-time thing. I mean, how, how do you make it work? Like on a practical day-to-day basis?

[00:15:15]Kristin Beale: So before you take the leap, figure out how much money you need and make sure that doing your side gig, that you have the ability to make money off it. Like, for me, it's a little tight, but I have my books and book sales, and then I have some of the it's, write for Chris Reeve Foundation every month, twice a month. So I have that income coming in. I just do a bunch of side gigs, which again is fun because it's, you know, side stuff like writing. And I love to write, and like drawing, which you know, is not profitable yet, but one day. And so make sure that the money part is taken care of. And then if you're trying to turn a hobby into a job, be very mindful of, of that. Because if once, once I start dreading drawing or dreading writing or, you know, just doing it, 'cause I have to do it  is when it turns into less of a fun thing and more of a responsibility and the, the love for it is lost. So you have to closely manage your feelings closely so that you don't-- you know, I used to love to draw, but then I quit my job. Like I choose to be my best friend and then I moved in with her. And then, so now we're enemies. That's like a common roommate thing. So it's kind of the same thing with art, like make sure that you still love it and that it's still fun for you because it's miserable if it's not.

[00:16:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. I, I was thinking along the exact same lines when you were talking about the transition of something that you love to do on the side and make it and how fun that can be, but then when you have to do it in order to, to make money. Yeah. I really appreciated your advice on that. Make sure you got the money thing figured out, so it doesn't become burdensome and frustrating all of a sudden, you know, instead of your joy. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, cool. So I'm so curious, is it really odd to watch someone else portray you in a TV show?

[00:17:09] Kristin Beale: People ask me that all the time and yes, it is always, it is always a lot. And it's because it's this, it's this girl who she's not in a wheelchair, but I taught her. I mean, I teach her how to be a wheelchair. It's not that hard, it's kind of like, sit down and don't move your legs. It's a little more complicated than that. But she's using my old wheelchair. I taught her how to be in a wheelchair. I taught her how to do things like transfer and I taught her how to do wheelies. And it's, it's odd when I'm behind the scenes directing it and, you know, she says something and then I can stop and say, "Hey, like, say that a little less cheesy," or like, "Say that, you know, a little more excited or not," and just to be able to direct someone to be me, which is very cool. And when you guys watched the episode, look for me in the background. I make a few cameos in there. Enough to learn that I love to be behind the scenes and I'm not an actress. I'm not an actress. I had a couple of lines. I'm a wheelchair fencer too.

[00:18:05]So I had a couple of lines in the fencing gym to the girl who plays Kristin. And by couple, I mean, like, I think I had three lines and we had to shoot it five or six times because I kept forgetting, you know, three sentences, three lines, or I'm like, I'm giggling in the right place or I'm like snorting, or like, it's just kind of like, what are you? But for what, like, I'm not nervous, but I get in front of the camera and I like lose my sense of I'm a human being. And so anyway, I love to be behind the camera and I love to direct people to be me, which is fun. And I love to get myself to get my passive aggressive revenge. Once again, 'cause these, these guys who were rude to me or like gross or, you know, whatever they were, I'm publishing in the comic book, which is like exposing you and, you know, teaching you that lesson maybe. But now I'm taking it one step further and I'm, you know, portraying them in a video. So it's really like, don't cross me. I'm just kidding, but really.

[00:19:02] Lindsey Dinneen: But seriously. Amazing. Oh my goodness. Okay. And I feel like, so you had a moment where I was like, wait, what? So, okay. You also fence.

[00:19:12] Kristin Beale: Oh, yeah. So the first episode is really fun because I am a wheelchair fencer. I've national- level competing wheelchair fencer. That's been really fun, but doing that for about two years, it's kind of me, who is a very soft and friendly and happy person. People say, "Oh, you have an outlet. You have an outlet is your fencing." And I'm like, "I don't, I don't have anger that I need outlet." So it's a very like out of character to be a fencer, but it's very, very fun. And it's one, I've tried over 14 adaptive sports and it's one of my favorites. My second favorite is hand cycling. I've done nine marathons, very active. That's very fun. That's like the equivalent of running. It's like a bike with three wheels that I push with my arms. So I, when I do marathons, it's like the equivalent of running and that's been awesome because before I was in my accident, I was a lacrosse player, field hockey player and competition cheerleader. So I was very active. And so when I got in my accident, my biggest heartbreak was I can't do sports. Like I can't, you know, I don't have that outlet. I'm going to get, you know, I'm going to get fat and I'm just going to be sitting there. I'm not going to have any way to like exercise my body, except for ,you know, arm, arm exercise in the gym, but adaptive sports are so much, in my opinion, so much more fun than regular sports. And hand cycling and fencing have been my two favorites.

[00:20:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's amazing. I love that. And honestly, I wasn't familiar with the term "adaptive sports." so what all kinds of options are there out there? 

[00:20:37]Kristin Beale: So I'll try to remember them all. I've done lacrosse, tennis, archery, rowing, and cycling, fencing. What else? I've tried everything that is available to me except for basketball, because I'm just really not naturally good at it at all. But I'm just not into basketball. Let me think what else? So there's an adaptive sports like team league, I guess. And I'm from Richmond. And they have, I think 15 sports, 15 or 16 sports available to people who sign up. So that's how I'm getting all of them. And then I went through the adaptive fencing through the VA hospital. They were just having a clinic and then I got onto the-- I'm not on the national team-- but I compete with the people. I'm not good enough to be like Olympic on the national team, but I fence alongside-- I'm friends with the people who are going to, you know, Tokyo next year or like one guy has been two, two Olympics. And he was just like here fencing with me. And it's very cool. So. All the opportunities and the places I get to travel for that, like I have been to the Olympic training center in Colorado Springs for two years in a row. I guess pre-COVID actually right before the pandemic started. I was coming over from Colorado for a week of training, like five hours of fencing per day in this beautiful Colorado Springs. And it's, it's the best.

[00:21:53] Lindsey Dinneen: That is so cool. And I love the opportunities that you've gotten to have because of it. And, oh my goodness, the people you get to interact with, how awesome is that?

[00:22:01] Kristin Beale: Yeah, like being at the training center, and you're surrounded by people from all different sports. I mean, able-bodied and disabled. We were actually the only wheelchair users there. But, but just like being, being like in the environment of, you know, that level of athleticism. Being around all these Olympians, just walking around, eating next to you in the dining hall. It's, it's really, really cool. I don't know a stronger word for that, but it's really cool.

[00:22:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I was going to say if it seems so surreal, just like, is this my life?

[00:22:31] Kristin Beale: Where am I again?

[00:22:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Do you think you'll ever write about your sports adventures? Like your fencing and things like that, or is that just like part of other things, do you think?

[00:22:43]Kristin Beale: Definitely. And I have, so in "Greater Things," my first book is where I was very new in my disability, so I was learning. Skiing was also a big one. I went to Colorado a couple of years in a row to ski at the like Breckenridge . That was really fun. So that was my first adaptive sport. And my first book, I think I'd tried nine or 10 of them. And there's a chapter for each one. You know, skiing, for example, it looks very cool. And you're in this mono ski and I'm, you know, I have like little mini skis, sitting down, of course. I have little mini skis on each hand and it looks very like, you know, awesome and fun. But then if you read my book, you see the perspective of like, I have snow in my nose. I don't like the cold. I keep falling. So you see the very real experience of it and it's unique of course, 'cause I'm, you know, paralyzed. So not a lot of people can relate to that, but then you see the reality of like, "Oh, she's doing this, you know, totally unique thing." But she's also like, you know, kind of just like me, 'cause she has snow in her nose and she doesn't like the cold and all that stuff.

[00:23:44] So. That was my first book is I did all those sports. And then I found my love for for hand cycling at the end of that book. And so I did the New York marathon was my first, my first marathon. So I, I did that marathon. I fell in love with sport, all that stuff. And then I published my third book, which is called "A Million Suns." And there's a chapter where it's like of that clinic where I discover wheelchair fencing. And, and then later on in the book, you see, actually I love wheelchair fencing. And so, so you're kind of going through all these new sports and experiencing that for the first time with me. And then you realize, you know, I found the two things I love: hand cycling and fencing.

[00:24:24] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Oh, perfect. Oh, I can't wait to read those books. Obviously I would like to, to continue to follow your journey and I'm sure some of our listeners would too. Is there a way for us to connect with you or where can we, you know, support you and follow you and everything?

[00:24:40] Kristin Beale: Awesome. So like I said, well, okay. Like I said, The Greater Things comics on Instagram. We have "Date Me" show on Instagram and I'm also Kristin Beale on Instagram, lots of Instagram here. And then my website is kristinbeale.com and that's where you can watch a video of me talking about my accident a little bit. You can read an excerpt, you can buy a book, whatever. You can also buy books on Amazon.

[00:25:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:14] Kristin Beale: Ooh, so I define art as an outlet because that's what it is to me. It started as an outlet. And so now , it's turning into an outlet for me when I got hurt and all this stuff. And now it's an outlet for my creativity and for my humor and for my personality. Whereas before it was an outlet for my frustration. I mean, at times it still is not for my frustration, but an outlet for my frustration and my new experiences and kind of digesting the world around me. So it looks like for me, it looks like, you know, real life experiences are relatable things or just things that will make you laugh or things that's a way to entertain people. Yeah, so an outlet for my creativity.

[00:25:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:01] Kristin Beale: Hm. The important role: to entertain and not to entertain others for that is a big plus, but to entertain yourself, to keep yourself happy to stay while you're doing it for it to be a good, you know, way to keep yourself happy. And, you know, it's a major plus if it can bring happiness to other people too.

[00:26:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive, and inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's the inspiration or title or program notes, something just so that we kind of know what the artist was thinking. Versus an artist who puts their work out there and it doesn't provide the context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:26:56] Kristin Beale: I like the idea of an exclusive, I'm not putting context into it, because it allows people to have their own experience with your art and interpret it based off of, you know, things in their life and make it personal to them on their own terms. Instead of someone, you know-- they're both right ways-- but instead of someone forcing you and saying, "This is how you should take in this art," but saying "You know, do what you will with it." Just putting it out here.

[00:27:22]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Makes complete sense. Well, thank you so very much, so much for being here today, Kristin. Your story is just incredibly inspiring and humorous, and I cannot wait to-- well the humorous part, being all your dating stories, I mean don't get me wrong-- but I just love, I just loved what you were sharing with us and I cannot wait to read those books and I highly encourage anyone listening to this episode to do so too, and follow Kristin on Instagram and all the different ways that she's doing that. Go, if you can support her endeavor with the TV show and, and all those things. So seriously, Kristin, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

[00:28:06]Kristin Beale:  It's so much fun. Thank you.

[00:28:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:28:21] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:28:30]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg  or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

In today's episode, I welcome Lucas Zellers! Lucas is the podcast host and creator of "Making a Monster," and the writer and creator behind Scintillla Studio. He shares his unique perspective on art through the lens of role-playing games, and how the monsters his guests explain on his podcast share powerful truths about life. (Fun fact: this episode's cover image is the logo of Lucas' "Making a Monster" podcast!)

Get in touch with Lucas Zellers: https://scintilla.studio/

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 47 - Lucas Zellers

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey. And I am so excited to be interviewing today, Lucas Zellers. He is the host of the Making a Monster podcast, as well as a writer Scintilla Studio, and I am so excited for him to be here because he brings a really unique perspective on art. And I cannot wait to share his stories and find out so much more about all the different ways that you've dabbled in art, Lucas. So thank you so much for being here today.

[00:01:04] Lucas Zellers: Well, it's my pleasure, Lindsey. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And I would love if you would just share a little bit about your background, maybe how you got involved in art and, and then started writing and hosting this podcast. I'd just love to hear more.

[00:01:20] Lucas Zellers: Sure. Yeah. So my journey as an artist is-- I always like to tell people that I'm a, I'm a chronic generalist. I started as a musician and became a writer by training and dabbled a lot in 2D design and illustration and sketching.  I spent a long time in stage acting as well. So between that, a little voice acting, a little podcasting, competitive public speaking and poetry, and oral interpretation like that. Just about every way you can use your voice for fun or profit, I've done. And most recently, all of that has sort of coalesced into the-- I guess what I'd call the 2020 expression of Lucas's artistic journey-- with the Making a Monster podcast.

[00:02:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Very nice. Okay. So it's all come together. So you share with us about you're Making a Monster podcast, if you don't mind.

[00:02:12] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. And that's, yeah, it's not terribly specific. The Making a Monster is a podcast I started. It's my quarantine project. And it's one of those things that has taken on more of a life than I ever thought it would. So the show looks at tabletop role-playing games, which is a whole section of art and entertainment that might, might stand out quite a bit from the, from the other guests that you've had on the show. But I think it brings together a lot of what art is and does, and how, how art intersects with people. My angle on that was, I wanted to make that, that world accessible to people who aren't interested in the hobby, especially people who wouldn't necessarily have watched "Star Wars" or " Lord of the Rings," or be at all interested in that kind of sword and sorcery genre of fantasy. So I looked at it one monster at a time.

[00:03:07] I'm able to get ahold of people who do design work, sort of the backend and mechanical design for games like that. And I asked them about a monster of their choice. I never tell them which monster to bring on, and I rarely know what monster they're going to choose until we get on to record. And then we pick it apart. So I want to know what this monster is whether it's like a kind of a Hydra, or I think a good example-- I had a, a 10 Story Robots on one episode. I've got an upcoming episode with a teleporting alien dog that's just there to cause havoc. So it really runs the gamut of everything that you might find in, in fiction and heroic fantasy and all that sort of thing, goes along with tabletop role-playing games. But when you strip out the setting of it and get through to the mechanics, you find something really interesting.

[00:03:56] And that is a whole field of literary analysis called monster studies, which looks at the way we have encoded culture into the things that we fear into the stories that we tell about the things that we don't know or should be afraid of. So that's what Making a Monster does is take a look at these monsters that really, you wouldn't think this holds up to academic scrutiny or kind of a deep moral analysis, but they always do. And that's the heart and soul of the show.

[00:04:26]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow, how fascinating. I mean, I love it. I have not dabbled too much in that particular world, but it's fascinating to me. And I mean, I grew up watching "Star Wars," and "Lord of the Rings," and all those good things. So I definitely have an appreciation for it, but I haven't done the gaming aspect of it. So this is so interesting. So, okay. So I'm just so curious. I was really intrigued by the idea that makes complete sense, thinking about it in terms of, you know, the psychology sort of behind it, but yeah, are there any particular examples that stand out as when you kind of dove deeper you, you recognized something unique?

[00:05:09] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. Probably the best example or, or I think the moment I knew it was going to be more than just sort of a "chill, we happen to have the same hobby" kind of podcast was when I started talking to someone about Dagon and I should, I should preface this conversation by saying that we're going to get into kind of the deep lore. And there's, there's a lot that might not tie this to the average listener, but what I hope, what I hope to kind of bring out of this all is that Dungeons and Dragons and tabletop role-playing games are kind of a new home for art and artistic expression. I believe that art needs an audience and that the best audience is often other artists.

[00:05:54] So games like this tend to gather artists together at the table, artists of all different stripes, people who value a wide variety of different ways of expressing themselves and being together at the table. And when you put them all together, they tend to do some really interesting things because we get some of that reward. Some of that immediate feedback that you would have from an audience, it's the same thing that's embodied and applause, this, this sort of give and take of improv theater and fine arts and visual arts or artistic design and storytelling. And I knew all of that going in, but the thing that, that made me realize there was this other dimension to it of truth and the way that we tell it to each other, it was when I started interviewing a guest about Dagon.

[00:06:38] So Dagon, the way he wrote it was a sort of demon prince of one of the many, many layers of hell in the certain setting of this game that we were playing. And I thought that was enough. But it had come to that game as so many things due from the works of HP Lovecraft, who's notorious for having invented the genre of cosmic horror, and a lot of great work is being done in that. And it's becoming more and more mainstream. It was a primary feature of " Stranger Things." Several shows on Netflix, "Lovecraft Country" on HBO-- a lot of people are playing in this space and bringing Lovecraft's work into, to new and better ways of looking at truth and literature and design.

[00:07:20] And I thought that was it. We did this whole interview that connected Dungeons and Dragons to Lovecraft, and I was satisfied. And then I put it on the internet and the hive- mind of the internet, of course, showed me things that I had missed. And it turns out the Dagon is not just the name of a story that Lovecraft wrote. In fact, his first story that he had published, it's also the name of an ancient Palestinian deity. Now I have some work to do. Yeah. I had to find someone who was both interested in Dungeons and Dragons and was willing to talk to me, and also was able to sort of connect the dots on ancient Canaanite religion. And that Venn diagram is very slim. But I gotten connected to a friend and he was able to show me how Dagon had sort of appeared over and over again in time. He's in several places in the Bible, one of which most remarkably I think was in Jonah where he's never mentioned by name, but he is the god that was worshiped, we know from archeology, at the city of Nineveh.

[00:08:24]And that connects him back through a lot of various ways to the way in which Israel would look at their god is a God of order and Dagon then was the God of the Philistines and was therefore a God of chaos and he was tied to the sea. So it's interesting that you say "dove deeper," 'cause that was really what happened and that sort of battle of chaos against law where a monster would come up out of the sea and be defeated by, by law and order, and Shalom is a motif, is a theme, that's repeated all the way from Genesis to Revelation. So it's about as old as a story can be. And I just found it lying around in a tabletop role-playing game.

[00:09:06]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. Oh my goodness. That story is fascinating.  It's so cool. I love it. I love that, you know, like you were saying, this motif, this theme has been around forever. Well, maybe not quite forever, but just so you know, for a really long, a long time and the idea of people taking the essence of it and bringing it into what's now a game. But it still has significance and history behind it. That's really interesting.

[00:09:35]Lucas Zellers:  Yeah. Even more so now, because we all have a handle on it. It took me forever and I, I don't think I would have engaged with Dagon and all of the themes and meanings that he has along with him that go back to some of the stories that account for the creation of the world. If I hadn't had this other sort of handle to hang on it or to, to hold it with-- if I hadn't been introduced to the concept and the name in this other way. So, so that kind of work is happening all the time in Dungeons and Dragons and the tabletop role- playing space where people are really starting to think very strongly about what makes a villain and what makes a hero, and whether that should be how we should understand that. And whether our understanding of that should change from what it was in say 1974, when the game was introduced. So there's a lot of excellent work that's being done in terms of the way that we express truth to each other. And I think that's the, that's the province of really good art.

[00:10:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And you had mentioned, you said it in a really particular way, which I am now not recalling-- but I'm sure you will-- about, you know, one of the things that's been interesting to you is discovering the way that we tell truth to each other or something along those lines that I get that kind of thing. Yeah. So, yeah, I'd love to learn a little bit more about what you mean by that, because I think that's a really interesting concept.

[00:11:01] Lucas Zellers: Sure. I think one of the ways in which this sort of taught me about truth and the way we tell it to each other was the interview that I released as the very first episode. So I did a batch of them. I did about six interviews before I launched the podcast because I wanted to make sure it would work. It wasn't the first interview I recorded, but it was the first one I released. It was about a game called "Jiangshi: Blood in the Banquet Hall," which was a remarkable little game that went through the, the Kickstarter. It was launched on Kickstarter where so many board games and role-playing games are these days. It's a game that was written by a team of American immigrants. And it focused on-- the, the setting of it is in 1920s, Chinatown, which I think was in San Francisco. And there are several other immigrant communities represented in the game as well.

[00:11:51] The titular monster, the Jiangshi, is a Chinese hopping vampire. And you'll find the aversion of the zombie in just about every culture across the world. A zombie or a vampire, we've been telling that same story to each other in many, many different ways. But this one is, it's about, so in this part, telling a vampire will feed, not on a person's blood directly, but on a person's life force, right? Or what the designer called chi, soul, if you will, being able to draw that directly out of them. And the, that story and the setting and the way the mechanics of the game work all work together to represent that drain as a drain of identity or cultural heritage or memory. So that this monster is taking all of those things out of you until you become sort of a gray featureless personality- less person that is in fact also as Jiangshi. And it's a great way of talking about cultural eraser. A lot of the things that were happening in sort of the, the San Francisco Chinatown phenomenon in the 1920s were represented really, really well by the work that she was doing. And I don't think I would ever be able to represent well in conversation, the experience of a Chinese American immigrant in 1920s, or even the experience of the descendant of a Chinese American immigrant in 2020. But I can say too, but we could play this game together. And I might ask, is racism a zombie though? And you would know exactly what I was talking about.

[00:13:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So the, kind of the idea of people expressing truth and their own experience, their own truth through a game, which provokes this conversation. And so that's what is so cool about all of these experiences and these people that you're interacting with it sounds like. Did I get that about right, yeah?

[00:13:59] Lucas Zellers: Yeah, and art picks up where words leave off many times, where or sort of in a loop with them. I think you, you'd be able to speak to this as well that dance expresses emotion in ways that other art forms can't. So when you go through this experience of playing Jiangshi, these truths stick in a way that they wouldn't if you had encountered them in any other way. It's why I remember Dagon fondly, not just as sort of an artifact in a museum, but as something that's a part of my personal experience and growth as a human being who understands the other human beings in the world. The same version, if I'd been able to play that game, you know, it becomes a part of my own experience becomes richer in my memory and imagination than it ever otherwise would have been.

[00:14:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And one of the things that I think is so amazing about art is that it can open up conversations that would otherwise be very difficult to have. But when these themes and these issues are expressed through art, sometimes that's a gentler way of opening up these conversations that should be happening, but are, are difficult, you know, rightly so. And so I think that that's just such a cool avenue for just starting the conversation that that should take place. Yeah. So cool. Well, I love that. And, okay, so obviously I need to listen to your podcasts because it sounds fascinating. I'm just so intrigued.

[00:15:29]Lucas Zellers: I spend quite a bit of crunch time on it or what the gamers will call crunch. So there's, there's a, there's a big portion of this that's of the podcast-- it's not gonna make sense unless you've played this game or that game. And I hope that that's not an obstacle to you, partly because I think that's another way of coding truth. So, you know, the, the level of like assigning a numerical value to the thing that this monster is, or does is an art form all unto itself. So that is a part of it, but don't let it scare you. And also if you're not playing these games, it's not what it was in 1974 or 1985 or 1999. It has a very different identity than it ever has. I think it's for more people than it ever was. I think it's smarter than it ever was. And I think it's way more beautiful than it ever was. So my hope is that while you're listening to the podcast, any sort of preconceptions that you have about role-playing games and the people who play them, you'll be able to sort of leave those at the door and discover something new.

[00:16:30] Lindsey Dinneen: I like that. Very good. Very good. Well, I'd also love to explore your writing a little bit, because I know that you also do that. So do you mind sharing a little bit about your experience writing and maybe what you write about?

[00:16:44] Lucas Zellers: Yeah, I'd be happy to. So Making a Monster is one of several projects that I've launched through Scintilla Studio. It's kind of my incubator. I, I built it so that I don't have to set up a separate website for everything I want to try. For a while there, I was a blogger when I thought that was still kind of the, be all end all of internet discourse. In 2018, I, I put out an album, just an EP of four songs that I recorded with some friends, all originals, which was a fascinating experience. And I do little things like that all the time. And I needed to have a place for them. So they all kind of live on scintilla.studio, Making a Monster being kind of the newest project. But the thing that ties them together is, is something else that, that sort of became obvious when I was doing the podcast. I've learned enough about that field of literary analysis called monster studies to know that one of them, the basic assumptions of that is that the monster's body is a cultural body.

[00:17:42] In other words, the monster is a product of the culture that tells it, it carries with it, all of the, the values and associations that that culture has. It's why Godzilla happened in Japan. Or, or why the jackalope happened in America on the frontier or, or John Bunyan or, or the Oz stories that are sort of uniquely American fantasy. I, I believe that that language of an ecosystem of idea and, and culture where, where stories and arts are, are kind of a species that evolve and change over time, and fit the ecosystem that they grew up in. I think that applies to creativity as well. So the kind of conceit of Scintilla that kinda pins all those ideas together is that creativity is an ecosystem. You have to build a habitat for it. Find, fill a place in your life, both your physical space and your routine  for that art to live. And then you have to give it the resources that it requires, whether that's time or energy or consumables, or just attention. And then you have to protect it from poachers because there are things that are going to come into that creative ecosystem that have a right to be there. You have to make food and raise your household and sometimes take a shower. Like there are things that have a claim on those resources, but there are also things that don't, and you need to cut them out. You need to be serious with yourself about what you're allowing to grow in this sort of creative ecosystem.

[00:19:15]So step three of four then is to kind of push the snowball. I think art for most people is, not like you said, this sort of one-off thing where you might experience it as the recital or the show or the finished piece where behind that is just thousands and thousands of hours of unfinished recitals and failures and attempts and sketches. So art is not the kind of thing that you do, and then you are done. It's the kind of thing that you push and make incremental progress as if you're pushing a snowball. So you build on your past successes and experience and then finally recycle. Because I believe that's important to every ecosystem, but I don't think art is ever wasted. If you finish a project and it is not as successful as you would have liked it to be or it didn't achieve the goal that you thought, it's never wasted effort. Because all of that comes back to you. It's an expression of who you are or who you were at the time, if nothing else. So a lot of the projects that are on Scintilla are things that I might never revisit or that didn't grow in the way that I hoped they would.

[00:20:21]But they all became the compost in which I'm growing other art, the same as all of these stories that we've inherited over time, the rich loam of storytellers before us sort of laid down by time and culture that, that proceeded us in the way that Dagon did. So, yeah. Scintilla is kind of this meditation on the way art is done by the common man and sort of a handbook for the way you can do it in a way that's fulfilling and sustainable.

[00:20:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. And I just really appreciated your description. I think it's so important, you know, as an artist, to not trash all your previous attempts at things, even though you might look back and cringe sometimes. I mean, we all do that, of course, but I love what you were saying about like, but  it was your best at the time and, and people, and we grow and we change and we learn and we, we evolve, but it's not bad. It's just like you said. And even if you really think it was garbage, like you said, that's still compost for future things to grow. I love that. Oh my goodness. I'm going to definitely adapt that, and you know, use that with my students when I teach them the idea that nothing is ever wasted.

[00:21:41] Lucas Zellers: It's so freeing. You look back at pictures of yourself and you cringe. And I, I have a lot of charity for my past self and I wish other people would too, ' cause it's who you were and it, it also gives you this kind of beautiful motivation to be the best you can be right now. And if you're making art in that way, you never have to be ashamed of it.

[00:22:02]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's beautiful. I talk with my students sometimes, and just in general, with people about, you know, your job is to do your best every day, but your best looks different every day. So, you know, some days it's when things are tough, it's getting out of bed and taking a shower. And that was your best for the day. And that's okay, you know. And other days you're going to have these bursts of creativity and the energy. And so your best of the day might be creating this fantastic painting, but that's not, you know, necessarily even realistic for every day. So it's just do your best every day. And then, give yourself the grace that not every day will look the same, I guess.

[00:22:44] Lucas Zellers: Maybe a more typical example is that you've caught me on what I think of as a good voice day. Like my voice sounds good right now. It's, it's early afternoon on a Saturday and I like the way my voice sounds. That's not always true. Certain days, some days it's a raspy broken down tenor that I'm kind of sad to be carrying around, but that's particularly the voice, which is so sensitive to the way you treat every aspect of your body. It really reflects who you are at the time. Yeah. To know that. And then watch your voice change day by day and hour. It sort of helps you realize that you're not just, you know, one person and you're not finished. And just because you weren't good now or then doesn't mean that you're not good now. \

[00:23:29]Lindsey Dinneen:  I love that. Yes. Perfect perspective. Okay. So good. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's so encouraging and I think that's so encouraging for artists who might be struggling, you know, some days and to realizing, to give themselves grace and, and it's, it's okay.

[00:23:48] Lucas Zellers: Because every voice is valuable and no voice deserves to be lost. And I hope that by giving people a way of eliminating that divide between themselves and an artist, that more voices will grow and that people will be more charitable to themselves and, you know, not paint over their own paintings or slash their canvas or, or whatever.

[00:24:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I had a professor in college who used to say that you were allowed to throw your pointe shoes in the trash every day, as long as the next day you would come back, pick them out and  I liked that. Yeah. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of that. I just love your perspective on art and the way that you're sharing it in such a unique way. So thank you for all of that. Thank you for just being that kind of blessing to the world.  I really like what you're doing and I value it. Thank you.

[00:24:42] Lucas Zellers: Thank you for saying so, and thank you for taking a chance on the D&D guy on this particular podcast.

[00:24:47]Lindsey Dinneen: No, of course, like I was sharing with you before the show, I just love art in general. So I'm happy to talk about it in any new way or anyway, anytime. Well, so if our listeners are interested in connecting with you, listening to your podcasts, reading some of your work, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:25:09] Lucas Zellers: Absolutely. Best place to go is to my website. It's scintilla.studio. That's S C I N T I L L A.studio. If you're looking for the podcast, you can tack on "slash monster" to the end or you can search for Making a Monster, literally, wherever you get your podcasts. I think I'm on 20 platforms and counting. Most recent addition was Pandora and I was very proud to be on Pandora. So I'm everywhere you want to be.

[00:25:36]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Okay, fantastic. Well, we will definitely be doing that. And if it's okay with you, I ask the same three questions to all of my guests. Are you up for that?

[00:25:48] Lucas Zellers: Yeah, let's do it.

[00:25:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. So the first one is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:57] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. So for a while, I tried to come up with, with my own definition of this and I was sort of laboring under the impression that a definition that I hadn't written wasn't authentic. But I found one that I really liked. Elaine de Baton wrote this in his book," The Pleasures and Sorrows of Work." He said, "art is anything that points our thoughts in important yet neglected directions."

[00:26:21]Lindsey Dinneen: All right. I love that. Never heard anything quite like that. Thank you for sharing that quote, that fantastic.

[00:26:30]Lucas Zellers:  It's incredibly useful to me because it doesn't say what art is, so much as what art does. And I think that's a more important way of defining it.

[00:26:40]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Perfect. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:49] Lucas Zellers: If we use the same definition, then the role of an artist is to tell us what to think about. And I think my experience with monsters and the study of them and sort of the practical use of monster theory is that art gives us a way of saying things that we couldn't say, or feeling things that we couldn't feel or experiencing things that we had no other way to experience.

[00:27:15]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or program notes or just the inspiration for it, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out and doesn't provide context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to decide for themselves.

[00:27:54]Lucas Zellers:  Yeah, it's a great question. And I think the answer is frustratingly the same as the answer is always, it depends. I want there to be art that does not hold my hand, but demands of me the attention and intensity to discover its meaning. But for the most part, I think that art should be inclusive of context at least because of the art that I'm trying to make. So a huge portion of what makes my podcast work. And the reason that I have it is that I have to go back and pick up the scattered pieces of context that are left like a trail of breadcrumbs through time by given pieces of art, by given stories that have traveled across out of their own context and into others and out of their own time and into new ones. And that investigative process is incredibly rewarding. I think there's a lot of risk when you don't make that stuff obvious to people, 'cause then you have to have someone like me come back and pick up the pieces and lay them out for you and show you sort of the journey of Dagon over time or the identity of a Jiangshi. And that's a different kind of art. Like if I have to show you that alongside the actual artistic experience, those are two different things. So it depends, but for the most part and for the art that I want to make, I think it should be inclusive.

[00:29:23]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Good. Perfect answer. Not that there's a wrong answer. I think it's all subjective, but yeah, but I really like that answer.

[00:29:34] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. It's one of those dilemmas that you've set up that it's kind of a false dilemma in that these two are not mutually exclusive  nor is there a right answer between them.

[00:29:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly, exactly. And the whole idea behind the question is just to see what people think. So, and you're right. They're not mutually exclusive, but it's, it's fun to hear different perspectives on that 'cause, you know, just like art, there are lots of opinions as to where context is really important and where it's not needed. And I like your idea of you want some art to be demanding of you, that you you really explore it and you think about it for yourself. So yeah, I really liked your answer. That was great. Well, thank you so very much for being here today, Lucas. I just really appreciate your time and your sharing your stories, and I'm excited to check out your podcast. I highly recommend that anyone listening to this episode does so too, and yeah, just, just thanks again. I really appreciate it. And if anyone is interested in sharing this episode with a friend or two, of course, I would love that. And thank you and have the most amazing day.

[00:30:54]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:31:04]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg  or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

In today's episode, I welcome Jeffrey Holst! Jeff is a life coach for all creative types, and thrives on helping artists monetize their art to create a sustainable living. In this episode, he shares about a journey to find himself through art that took him around the world and back again. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is the logo of the Last Life Ever podcast!)

Get in touch with Jeffrey Holst: https://linktr.ee/Jeffholst | https://www.instagram.com/jeffreyholst/

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 46 - Jeffrey Holst

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello. And welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Jeffrey Holst. He's a real estate investor, a recovering attorney, and a podcaster. And I just can't wait to hear all about your background, Jeffrey, and all the different stories that you have to share. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:58] Jeffrey Holst: No, no problem, Lindsey. I appreciate you having me on. It's, it's exciting to be here. So I, I appreciate that.

[00:01:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I do definitely have to ask about your background, especially because recovering attorney is part of it. So I would love to hear a little bit about, you know, just your own journey and maybe how you became a podcaster because that's, that is an art form in and of itself too.

[00:01:23] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah, no, you know, I don't always think of it as art, but I do two different shows and it is, it's a lot of work. And then there requires us to think very carefully about how we're presenting everything. So it does seem like art in a lot of ways. I don't think it's significantly different than than any kind of performance- based art. But yeah, so I practice law. I, I mean, I, I started started practicing law in 2007 and I did it because I wanted to make money. I didn't do it because I loved it. And that's why I'm a recovering attorney. Now I recognized that, you know, you need to do things that you love and enjoy with your life. And so that's how I got out of law, but there's a, sort of a long story about how I ended up where I'm at that I'm happy to share with you, if you have the time for that. So.

[00:02:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Yeah.

[00:02:09] Jeffrey Holst: So the short version of the long story --how's that --is that I, I was going to community college. I was in my third year of a two-year program because I really had no idea what I wanted to do. And, yeah, I was sitting in this, a history class and they were talking about the Renaissance and they were talking about Michelangelo in particular and I remember this so clearly too. It's amazing how impactful this one event was the professor was talking about this Michelangelo sculpture, the Moses, that was supposed to be the centerpiece to Pope Julian the Second's tomb and Michelangelo was commissioned by the Vatican to produce this marble sculpture. And, and they, when he finished it, they were having this unveiling and the Pope was there and, you know, all sorts of dignitaries are there and they pull the sheet off of it or whatever, and he's kind of down on his haunches and he just stares at it and he doesn't say anything. Just awkward silence. And everyone's looking at him and looking at the sculpture.

[00:03:08] And finally one of his students is like, "You know, you have to say something," and he takes a chisel and he throws it full force at the sculpture. And he says a single word "Move." Because he was so passionate about this sculpture that he thought it would literally get up and move. It's just a chunk of rock, right? But I mean, at the same time it was, it's incredible. The sculpture-- there are parts in the marble where the robe of Moses is so thin that you can shine a light through it. I mean, it's just, I mean, it's incredible sculpture. And I would argue probably the best of all of Michelangelo's sculptures, which is saying something because he has quite a few sculptures that are considered the best in the world, right? The David and the Dying Slave-- those are all amazing sculptures, but, but Moses to me, it's something extra and you have to remember to like,  to kind of lose your mind in front of the Pope, back in the Renaissance, that's like-- there's no one today alive, you know, you could say the President of the United States or something, but there's no one as important as the Pope was in the Renaissance. 'Cause there was like a combination of world leader, spiritual leader, emperor, you know, I mean basically completely in control of everything going on. So until like, freak out in front of the Pope is like crazy.

[00:04:25] And I was sitting there in this class, listening to this story, thinking there is nothing in my life that I'm that passionate about, that I would like throw a chisel and scream in front of the President. And I just kind of went, I got to figure this out. Like I need to do something better, more interesting. I just need to solve this. So I, I mean, it was the second semester of my third year and I didn't really need to keep going to community college because I had plenty of credits. So I just kind of went, yeah, I'm going to take a year off and I'm going to go to Europe and I'm going to figure this stuff out. And so I took my income tax refund, which was about $3,000 and I called up 1-800-PRICELINE. This is before the internet version of Priceline. And I got a plane ticket to London for like $300. And, and I, and the most they would give you at that time on Priceline was a 30- day return ticket. So I just, "Well, I'm going to go for 30 days to London."

[00:05:18] And I knew that the Moses was in Rome and my main purpose was to see that, but I wanted to make it like a quest. Like I find myself, you know, I don't know. I, since I was a young kid, right. I was 21. I don't know. I thought I was, that these grand plans of, of you know, traveling around the world and discovering like this, you know, great secret. It was almost like an Indiana Jones type thing for me. I'm going to go explore the world. And I did, and I had a great time. I mean, I spent about two and a half weeks between England and France and Spain, and then finally made my way over to Italy and I went to Rome. Oh, I saw the Coliseum. And then I climbed this little hill up behind the Coliseum to this church called the San Pedro in Vincoli or something like that. It, it basically St. Peter in Chains and you walk into this church and it's a small church and it was under construction at the time that I was there. They were recently cleaning the facade or something. And so there's scaffolding up in front of it. So it wasn't very impressive from the outside.

[00:06:16] And you walk in there and there's this altar in the middle of the entry almost that's got this box in it and the inside the box or some chains that are supposedly the, the chains that, that St. Peter was wearing at the time that he was released from, from jail, by the angels. And so that's what the church has dedicated to. And I'm looking around this church and it's a pretty small. And I don't see this sculpture anywhere. And this is like way before smartphones. And like my guidebook said it was there and I'm like, "Where's this thing, you know, I'm looking for it." And I'm walking around and I see in the corner of this, like shadowy, like dark corner of the church, that there's something that might be the sculpture. And I'm like, "Well, this is going to be really disappointing 'cause I can't even see it." And I'm thinking all the construction's blocking the light or something and I go over there and there's a little box and you drop-- at the time it was like a thousand Lira coin-- I'm sure it's like euros or something now, but you dropped Lira coin in this box.

[00:07:09] And then it turns on the light to light up the sculpture. So it's like an old- school box. It's like chunk chunk. And then it's like, you know, like it's like a scene from a movie and I'm like, "This is the moment. Right? This is the point when I'm going to solve everything." Cause remember, I'd say that's the whole reason I'm in Europe. I'm wondering, I've never been out of the US before, except for, I went to Canada a few times as a child. But I'd never been to Europe. I'd never been in a place where they didn't speak English. Here I am in Rome, by myself you know, with a backpack on staring at this thing, that's going to solve everything for me. And I was like, eh, I can't really, I was looking at the Moses and I was like, it's impressive, but I still don't know what I want to do. So I walked outside and I sat down on the front steps of this church and I was looking down at the Coliseum and I thought, "I like seeing old stuff. I like seeing art."

[00:08:02] I'm just going to go make some money. And that's how I decided to become a lawyer. I want to go. My dad was a lawyer and he, he made good money. So I went, I "I'm going to go be a lawyer and I'll make good money and I can travel the world and look at art and old things." So I made a little list in my head-- the pyramids, Machu Picchu in Peru. Oh, Petra in Jordan. You know, all these ancient sites that I wanted to see, there's a few other things on the list, but I mean, I made this list  and then I did. I just wanted to, I went to law school and, you know, I got married and I took my wife back to Paris and Rome, and we went to the Louvre and we went and saw the Moses again. I was still impressed by it, but still didn't feel like it solved my, you know, my life's purpose question, this like, big grand thing. And my life was okay. I mean, it was fine, was it was. It wasn't bad, but I made good money, started practicing law, started my own law firm. Went to Egypt. I went to Petra and Jordan and finally went down to Peru, to Machu Picchu.

[00:08:56] And that's an amazing place. The, the ancient Incan city on top of a mountain. I mean, that's art in and of itself. Like some of these archeological sites are some of the most amazing art. I mean, if you go to Egypt and see, you know, hieroglyphics and painted tombs and giant pyramids, I mean, that stuff is just --it's mind- blowing the impact that that stuff can have on you. But I went and saw this Machu Picchu, and I was like, "Wow." And I realized when I was sitting there looking down at it, right around sunrise, looking down from the top of the mountain to the city. And I was thinking, "I just finished my bucket list. Sorry, I just, I'm done now. What do I do?" Right? Like I'd made this list 10 years prior when I was in Rome the first time. And I I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I climbed off the mountain and I checked my voicemail. And this attorney that worked for me quit via voicemail, said he was giving the two weeks' notice and I only had one other attorney myself and him.

[00:09:52] And I thought, "Well, I'll deal with that when I get home." And when I got home, I was diagnosed with leukemia. And I wasn't able to go back to work and yeah, ended up bankrupt. And I was like, "Man, life's super short and I've done a lot of cool stuff, but I still don't have any idea what I want to do with my life." And I figured right then and there, if I survived, I needed to figure out a way to make sure, well, two things: one, that money would keep coming in, even after I was unable to work because I didn't know if I'd be able to go back to work or whatever. So that's how I got into it real estate. And, you know, in retrospect that, you know, getting sick was probably the, the greatest thing that ever what happened to me because it got me to quit practicing law. It got me to become a recovering attorney and it got me to find that real person passion and the real passion for me is just helping people live the best possible version of their life. And so that's what I do now.

[00:10:48] You know, I'm a full-time real estate investor. I'm fortunate that seven years after filing bankruptcy, I was able to quit my job and not have to work anymore. Some of that was just really good timing, right? I got sick in 2008. I got bankrupt in 2010 and I started real estate investing in 2011 at the bottom of the market. People who follow the real estate market know it's up a lot since then. So I've been very lucky in that regard. But we've also, you know, put in a lot of work and we spent a lot of time building a portfolio that that takes care of our daily needs and, and it's, it's pretty amazing actually.

[00:11:22] Lindsey Dinneen: So. Wow, what a story. I love that. And I also was just really chuckling to myself about the expectation that maybe seeing the Moses would be this like transformative. I know all the secrets to the universe now. I love that.

[00:11:39] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah. I mean, that's really how it felt. And when I went back to see it later, I actually appreciated it much more because it didn't have as much pressure on it, right? It's not fair to any sculpture or any piece of art or really any show or any, anything to assume it's going to change everything. If you think that going into something, you're going to be disappointed. Your show is amazing as you know, but if someone just goes into your show and goes, "Hey, if I listened to this episode with Jeff Holst, my whole life's going to change." They're not going to be, they're going to be disappointed. I know this for sure. On the other hand, if you go into stuff and you just appreciate it for what it is, you can really get a lot of benefit from stuff. And then that's the thing about art. I mean for me, like some of the things that I've seen in the world-- the Nazca Lines are that. I didn't have any pre-exposure to them.

[00:12:28] I really didn't know much about them. I just write about them and thought it sounded cool. Then Nazca Lines are giant petroglyphs. They're, you know, rock carvings that are so large that you can only see them from the air. And they are thousands of years old. They make no sense. Like who makes rock carving so you can only see it from the air 5,000 years ago? I mean, why would you make that? Like, what would be the point of making it right since you can't even identify them from the ground and they're clearly manmade, they're like hummingbirds and spiders, and there's a guy that looks like an astronaut, which is really curious, right? Like, it's like, why? Like, like what are they doing? Like, this is like a little guy with like two legs, two arms and a helmet on. This makes sense. So, but, but seeing that. That was unbelief. I mean, it's just, it's, it can change your whole perspective. It's like, well, what's going on there. And, and I felt that way, honestly, about some of the stuff.

[00:13:22] It's weird what stuff impacts you. You know, there's things like, you know, the, the Mona Lisa it's, it's cool to see because it's like, you know, it's the Mona Lisa, but, but it didn't like change my life, but then, you know, there's other times I've seen stuff that I wasn't expecting at all, like stuff that I didn't even think I would love. And I'd be like, "Whoa, this is amazing." And sometimes it's, you know, famous artists. Sometimes it's not. I mean, Salvador Dali really did that for me. I went to the Salvador Dali Museum in St. Petersburg, Florida a few years ago. And I always was like, "Well, he's okay. I mean, it's not really my style, but now I'm like, I love Salvador Dali. After going there, I even went out and bought myself a Salvador Dali, you know, signed limited edition. 'Cause I was like, I just know I got to have this in my life."

[00:14:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and then I'd love that your approach of going in with an open mind and just letting the experience be what it is for you instead of coming at it with a preconceived idea of what it should be or what it could be, and then maybe, you know, setting yourself up for disappointment. And that makes complete sense to me. And I love, I love that open-minded approach. Yeah. And just I'm sure, just time has contributed to that time and wisdom, but yeah, that's, that's great. Well, first of all, you were such an overcomer and your story is very inspiring. So thank you for sharing that with us down to the, all the, the details. I really appreciate that. And I also was curious, because I know you obviously do the real estate investing, which is fantastic, but then you're also a podcaster and you have two shows. I would love if you'd share a little bit about maybe how those came about and maybe what they're about too.

[00:15:01] Jeffrey Holst: Sure. So they're completely different. The first show that I'd started a couple of years ago, it's called Old- Fashioned Real Estate. And what, what happened is we decided we were going to start raising some money from individuals to buy bigger deals. And we thought, well, if we're talking to people about raising money, it would be cool if they Googled us, they would find us talking about real estate. So we just made a show on YouTube and we didn't know what we were doing.  And the first couple of episodes are just recorded with my cell phone on a box, you know. Like it's just, you know, we've improved it over the years, but show is kind of a cheeky in a way, because what we do is we drink bourbon old- fashioned. So we just get drunk and talk about real estate investing. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. We've really enjoyed that. And we've gotten some reasonable traction. I mean, it's not something that's going to ever make us super famous, but it's opened up a lot of opportunities for me, which is one of the best parts about podcasting is the people you meet. You know, I've interviewed people on there and most of the time we don't even interview people. That's actually just myself and my partner talking about real estate because we like to do it live and in person. But after coronavirus happened, we started doing more interview shows, 'cause you know, we couldn't go out and like, hang out together for awhile.

[00:16:15] And and so we just, we just were like, "Well, I guess we're gonna, you know, do some zoom stuff or whatever." And we started doing that and and it's, it's been really amazing that people that we've gotten on the show and people we've met that are just do really cool and interesting things in that field. And then also like when I was able to go out and network and stuff, it was just really great. Like people, you know, it gives, it sets you apart a little bit having a show. So when you meet someone and they're like, "Oh, you're the person with the show." And then they start watching your show and then they feel like they know you and they really do kind of get to know you, 'cause there's a lot of this media is very personality based. It's a lot of it is, you know, whether you like the person that you're listening to or not. If you don't like them, then you're not going to watch them, listen to their show or watch their show. And so that's the first show.

[00:16:59] The second show came a year or so later, and it's called Last Life Ever. And this is a by-product of me getting leukemia. Really. It's about recognizing that, you know, life is short, even if you don't get leukemia. I mean, I thought I was going to die for the first month or so. I expected not to live more than three or four months. And when you have that kind of perspective shift, it causes you to think, you know, I don't really like practicing law. I need to do something else, right? Well, it would have been very easy if I hadn't gotten sick to still be an attorney now, make decent money. Like it wasn't that bad. I didn't hate it. In fact, I was pretty happy, but I didn't have any, any fulfillment in my life. And when I started getting into real estate and the freedom that that bought me when I quit working in 2017, I kind of went, "You know, this is a pretty good life."

[00:17:50] Like I need to be doing something to help people get to the situation where they can choose how they, they want to spend their time. It's not about not working because I still work. I do things like podcasting and real estate investing and all that. But I started the real estate show to help people be able to real estate invest in and after a while, I started to realize that there's more to life than just being a real estate investor, it turns out, and I wanted to help people have bigger dreams and do things that that would benefit them and live really what we always say is, live the best possible version of their lives. Recognizing that it is their last life ever, that they're only get this one chance, you know, you gotta make someday today because if you don't someday may never come.

[00:18:35] And so we do that kind of stuff and we interview people that are during interesting and fun things.  We interviewed people like Broadway musicians and sometimes artists or art gallery owners. But, but also people-- like we interviewed a reality television star who won season two of the, of "Alone," where he spent 62 days living by himself in the wilderness. And, and, and outlasted the rest of the people that were in different places in the wilderness, you know, I'm just like crazy stuff like that. And then what these people do and how their mindset is. I mean, we've interviewed like TJ Miller the comedian and just talk to him about you know, he does and how he got into it and how he thinks. And I mean, that kind of stuff. It's like, you start to recognize that, you know, people doing these extraordinary things, whatever they are, but they're just people like the rest of us. And if we can help people be inspired by that, that's, that's really the goal of the show. And, and, you know, there's an element of charity. We have a foundation that we started and there is an element of, you know, training and stuff like that. But, but at its core, it's really just about the mindset of, of, of going for your personal dreams, whatever those are.

[00:19:43]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. That's so cool. I can't wait to subscribe and start listening to that because I think that's so important. And, yeah, what cool people that you've gotten to talk to! I really think that's awesome.

[00:19:56] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah, it's been so fun. And like I said, too, it's some of these people I consider friends now. I mean, I interviewed this guy, Vinney Chopra is his name. We interviewed him on both shows. He's a real estate investor, but he also has this thing, like a smile philosophy. He just smiles all the time. People call him Mr. Smiles. That's how much he smiles. And he's just so positive and so happy. And he has this book, "Positivity Makes Profitability" and he was coming out with that book and we were like, "Yeah, I want to interview him for the last life ever show." So I talked to him twice and then he had me on his show. And then pretty soon he's like texting me and each of these stories so cool. The guy comes-- he's Indian-- and he comes to the United States at like 20 years old, with $7 in his pocket. And now he's in his early sixties and he has 4,000 apartment units or something crazy like that. And he just attributes the whole thing to mindset. It's like, you just gotta be nice and friendly all the time and everything works out for you. And I was like, this is so awesome just to meet people like that and then have them text you and be like, "Hey, next time I'm in Chattanooga, well, let's get together and have dinner or something." You know, it's just really weird how normal people are when you actually get to know them.

[00:21:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. Yes.  I talk about this quite a bit on the, on this podcast, but you know, just talking about how sometimes we have these ideas of-- for, for instance, because we're talking about art, you know, we have this ideas of artists being these like really glamorous, you know, people with these glamorous lives and, and, you know, that's, that's 1% of the time and the other 99% of the time is hard work and literally scrubbing floors and, and all that, you know, hilarious, fun stuff. And so yeah, I like, I like that perspective, you know, we're all human and we were all trying to live, you know, our best, most inspired lives. But you know, sometimes that looks like just doing a thorough cleaning of something. It it's 99% work.

[00:21:50] Jeffrey Holst: Right. I agree with that completely. That's true of everything. I mean, putting together a podcast, you know, most of the work happens offline. It doesn't happen when we're just chatting, right? This is, this is the fun part, right? What we're doing right now. And, and then that's the, that's the way it is with every kind of art and anything that you're doing. Even if it's not art, the part that looks exciting, like if you're a lawyer and you know, I love being in trial, like that was fun. But, you know, getting ready for trial, that was a lot of work, you know, it just wasn't a lot of work. And I didn't like doing that work and, and, you know, so the thing is like, you can be satisfied with what you're accomplishing and that's okay if you're very passionate about the work that you're doing, then it's easy to put in the hard work to get ready for it. But it's not easy if you don't love what you're doing.

[00:22:38]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yes. And I think that is such an important distinction. I recently finished reading "Big Magic" by Elizabeth Gilbert, which I highly, highly recommend to everyone.

[00:22:50] Jeffrey Holst: Wait, by Elizabeth Gilbert? Isn't she the love... "Eat, Pray, Love" lady?

[00:22:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, she is. And she wrote a book about overcoming fear as a creator.

[00:23:01] Jeffrey Holst: That's great.

[00:23:01] Lindsey Dinneen: As a creative, and it's brilliant.

[00:23:04] Jeffrey Holst: She wrote a really interesting book about marriage and relationships too, actually, I read a few years ago. I think I got on Audible or something. I really liked her. I'd liked that movie so much 'cause it's, it speaks to me when people are just following their passion, that's like, that's my thing. Right? That's what I want people to do. So I was like, I love this. I need to read it. So I didn't know this new book that you're talking about. I'll have to check it out.

[00:23:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, and she talks a lot about, you know, no matter what you choose in life, there are going to be elements that you are really not going to like. And that, that suck, frankly. And so you have to decide what you're willing to put up with, because every single thing has its own set of problems or frustrations or whatever, you have to decide which ones are going to be worth it because you're so passionate about what you're doing. So basically there's no way to avoid that. I seriously think it's such a misnomer when people talk about, "Oh, you know, when you find a job you love, you'll never have to work a day in your life." I think that's pretty ridiculous.

[00:24:03] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah. That's, that's it's nonsense.

[00:24:06] Lindsey Dinneen: It's nonsense.

[00:24:07] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah, that bothers me. Actually, I hear people say that stuff all the time and I'm like, "No, the secret to being really happy in life honestly, is in my opinion, figuring out how to buy your time back as soon as you possibly can, like figure out what you can do to make sure that you don't ever have to go to a job you don't like, right? Because if you build a business or you make investments or whatever it is to get your basics covered, then you have the freedom to play. And that's where you really get to enjoy your life is when you can play. Like if you had an unlimited amount of money, would you still dance? And the answer is yes, of course you would, but would you do everything that you do? Probably not, right? And so I'm not there. I don't have an unlimited amount of money, but I feel like if you can get to the point where you have your basics covered, then you get a lot more freedom to do the stuff that's important to you."

[00:25:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. I totally agree. Absolutely. So I'm curious, 'cause you mentioned, you know, realizing now back in the day that you had sort of accomplished your, your bucket list dream. So I'm curious, what are your new bucket list dreams? If you don't mind sharing?

[00:25:20] Jeffrey Holst: I don't have a bucket list currently. I, I reject the term "bucket list." Probably it's just an overly technical issue, but you know, I completed my bucket list and then like two weeks later, I was in the hospital dying and I thought to myself, "One, don't ever finish your bucket list. That's a terrible idea because you're going to get leukemia and die. And two, you know, obviously that's not true, but that's what it felt like at the time, right? And the second thing was like, you know, the idea of a bucket list is, is wrong in a way." So I have a life list now, things that I would love to do, but I don't feel like I have to check them off. They're just things that would be really cool if I did them. And so it's less defined than what a bucket list traditionally is. But there's a lot of stuff on it. Like I think of new stuff all the time.  I'll have a book that I'm about done writing. I'd like to get that published. That's, that's up there. I want to build out our charitable arm a lot more. We have a foundation where we help people with sort of like micro grants. Like we've paid rent for people a few times, or we paid for tuition for a seven year old child in Tanzania.

[00:26:25]Yeah, so like, it's just like, you know, where a small amount of money can make a big impact in someone's life. That's, that's one of the things that we're really passionate about. And I just gotta keep like living an interesting life. Like that's, that's really my goal. So last year in February, so just over a year ago now, I spent the entire month in Africa. That was good timing too, ' cause you know, we haven't been able to travel since, but I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro and I went on a Serengeti Safari and saw the Willdabeast migration, you know, firsthand.  And then also like went in and met up with people running charities and school for a school for disabled people in Ethiopia. And, you know, so just want to keep doing stuff like that. Like, I mean, I could list stuff, but it doesn't really matter. I have one goal that's, I call it my 50/50/50/7 goal and that's 50 states, 50 countries, seven continents before I turned 50. That's like a goal of mine to do those. Well, on the way I've got my 50 states in, I'm at like 39 countries.

[00:27:24]And I've got a trip booked to Antarctica. That'll be my seventh continent scheduled for next January. So like 10 months from now. And this year I was like, you know what, if we can start traveling again, I'm going to ramp up my goal and try to finish my 50/50/50/7 goal when I get to Antarctica. So I want to go to 11 countries this year. That'd be really cool 'cause then I'd get, you know, I get my goal done. I'm not sure that'll happen 'cause I can't control the pandemic, but it looks like we're getting closer to opening up. So hopefully.

[00:27:55]Lindsey Dinneen:  That is awesome. And I have to say, I am so incredibly jealous of your trip to Antarctica, because that would also be my seventh continent. So it's my goal to get there too. Oh my gosh. Yes.

[00:28:07] Jeffrey Holst: The crazy thing about Antarctica is that I don't know hardly anyone that's been there 'cause it's sort of hard to get there, as you know. But when I was in Australia a few years ago, I met this couple that had been to 150 countries and Australia was their seventh continent. And I said, "Wow, you went to Antarctica like that. Must've been interesting." And they're like, "Yeah, it was our favorite place that we've ever been." And that same reaction from everyone I know that goes to Antarctica. They all say, "Oh yeah, it's the best place we ever traveled." And the thing about that is like people who go to Antarctica are pretty well-traveled, right? Because I don't know very many people that have been to Antarctica, but the ones that I have have been a lot of places. Like just the other day, I interviewed on Last Life Ever, this guy, Lee Abbamonte, who is the youngest person in the world to have traveled to every country recognized by the UN and the North and South Pole, right?

[00:29:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:29:01]Jeffrey Holst:  Like he's 36 and he's literally been everywhere in the world. I mean, that's a pretty, you know, impressive run of travel, right? And the weird part is he didn't start traveling until he was 22. So in 14 years, he went everywhere in the world and in the world. I mean, that's crazy. Yeah. And I mean, that was a fascinating interview and like, people should check it out, 'cause that guy's just amazing. Like, even if you don't check out my interview with him, just go Google him and find his interviews with other people because he's just a fascinating guy.  It's like I was saying about, you know, podcasting and meeting people. That's I want to keep doing that, 'cause like now, like I have Lee Abbamonte's cell phone number and I can text him and be like, "Hey, give me some advice on whatever, you know, like when I go to Antarctica, what should I do?" So that's what I did.

[00:29:45] And, and just the other day we interviewed this lady, Heather Moyse, who is an Olympic gold medalist in the bobsled two time, bobsledding gold medalist, right? And she's a Canadian gold medalist. And she sent me a copy of her book and has been texting me like, "Hey, have you read it yet? I can't, I can't wait to hear what you think of it. "And it's just crazy to be like, having conversations with people that are just doing all these really crazy things. And she also has been to Antarctica, and which is a weird coincidence now that I think of it because she actually was telling me, "Oh, I'm so jealous that you climbed mountain Kilimanjaro. That must've been really hard. The only kind of climbing I've ever done is I once climbed the highest mountain in Antarctica." I was like, what? Like, how can that be that's way harder than climbing Kilimanjaro, which by the way is very difficult. It's not a joke, but you know, 30, 40,000 people a year climb Kilimanjaro. Only a handful of people have ever climbed the highest mountain in Antarctica. It's just a little bit of a different kind of level.

[00:30:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yes, that is a very intimidating undertaking to me. So kudos.

[00:30:56] Jeffrey Holst: She did it for a veteran's charity, actually. So it was to raise money and awareness to people that were suffering post-traumatic injuries. And so it's like an awesome cause and they raised a bunch of money and, you know, helped a lot of people out. So I get why she did it, but she was like, it was really hard. It was really cold. It was also amazing. And I'm like exactly how I felt about Kilimanjaro: really hard, really cold and also amazing. So yeah.

[00:31:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Love it. Perfect. Well, obviously you interview some really, really amazing people. So how can our audience find your podcasts and, or follow your journey? Obviously, you're going to be hopefully publishing this book here soon too. So for anyone who kind of wants to keep up with you, how can they do that?

[00:31:41] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah, I mean, so I'm pretty active on Instagram. It's just at Jeffrey Holst so people can follow me there for sure. But we have a Last Life Ever private Facebook group. It's just literally Last Life Ever Private Group is the name of it. We're very creative like that. And people can join that group is the best possible way to stay in touch with me because people in that group, that's where I hang out. That's my passion. And then of course they can follow my, you know, the shows on all the podcasting apps and YouTube and all that. So Last Life Ever and Old-Fashioned Real Estate, both available everywhere that podcasts are.

[00:32:15]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Thank you. And now, oh yeah, for sure. And I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:32:26] Jeffrey Holst: What if I said no? Has anyone said no?

[00:32:28] Lindsey Dinneen: No one's said no, but I mean, I wouldn't want them to feel like they couldn't.

[00:32:33] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah, I know. I just always think like, it's totally tangential, but I always feel like when people ask you, like, if you're okay with that, they really mean you are okay with this... right? I am okay with it. So go ahead.

[00:32:47]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, good. I mean, it would be breaking with tradition if you were like, "No, I really don't want to be asking." But I would respect that too, so, oh, my word. Okay. So the first question is, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:33:03] Jeffrey Holst: Wow. That's a big question. So for me, art is, is any kind of creative endeavor that's that allows the creator to express themselves.

[00:33:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Concise, and I love it. Okay. And then, secondly, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:33:24]Jeffrey Holst: I think that artists bring perspective to everything. If we didn't have artists, our world would be very boring. So I think perspective and entertainment are probably the two things that are most important.

[00:33:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Okay. And then finally, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is, inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and who provides some context behind that, whether it's the inspiration or program notes or a title. Versus an artist who is exclusive and puts their work out there, but doesn't include context behind it, so it's left solely up to the viewer to make of it what they will.

[00:34:15] Jeffrey Holst: So I don't know that there's really a right answer to that. Like I think that different artists have different reasons for what they're doing. And I think like art is really like an expression of whatever the creator is, the artist is wanting to do. So I'm not sure that there's really a right answer. I much prefer things that do have a little bit of explanation behind it. I interviewed David  Liebow is his artist's name, but so Liebow is a sort of post-modern cartoon artist, right? Like he's a Miami muralist, that sort of made big, right? Not super big, but big enough that he's, you know, painted like cruise ships and stuff like that, right? And in, in, in liquor bottles, I think he did a whole run for Absolute and like stuff like this, right? So, so he's kind of like a, you know, pop art slash you know, a little bit of other stuff. And I asked him something along those exact lines, like I said, "Well, what does this mean? Like this, this piece of art that you have, and it had words on it, right? Like, I, I mean, it's, it has has words, but it didn't seem to connect to me." And he's like, "Thinking about art is that art is whatever the viewer takes from it. That's what matters." And so, well, he did give some context by giving it titles, right. And putting some words into his art. He also wants people to interpret it however they feel comfortable with it. And I thought that's maybe the right balance somewhere in between. Right. You give a little bit of context, but you leave a lot of it open to interpretation.

[00:35:46]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the perfect way to describe that balance. Absolutely. Very cool. Well, thank you so very much for being here, Jeff. I really, really appreciate your time and wow. Your stories are so cool and inspiring, and I just love how you obviously love and appreciate art and what it's meant to you. So thank you so much again for being here and sharing those stories with us. I really appreciate it.

[00:36:16] Jeffrey Holst: Oh, thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed coming on and I feel like I could talk about art and like my life as much as you wanted. So, you know, if you get bored sometime, you can always give me a call.

[00:36:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Yeah, like I was sharing with you before I can talk all art all day with anybody. I love it. So. Well, thank you again, and thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode. Please make sure that you go and listen to some of Jeff's podcast episodes, subscribe to what he's doing, maybe check out that Facebook group so you can kind of stay in the loop too. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am after listening to this, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:37:06] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:37:15]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg  or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

In today's episode, I welcome Christina Stanton! Christina is an award-winning author, professional singer, and licensed New York City tour guide. She shares her incredibly powerful story of how watching a musical was the catalyst to start healing after experiencing the 9/11 attacks firsthand changed her life forever. (Fun fact: the cover image of this week's episode is the cover of Christina's book about her experience on 9/11 and its aftermath.)

Get in touch with Christina Stanton: https://christinaraystanton.com/

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 45 - Christina Stanton

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host post Lindsey, and I am so excited to introduce as my guest today, Christina Stanton. She is a licensed New York City tour guide, the owner of a nonprofit, and the author of a book about 9/11. And currently she's also working on a book about her experiences as a tour guide. And I am so very thrilled to have you here today. Thank you for being here, Christina.

[00:01:00] Christina Stanton: Hey, good morning!

[00:01:03]Lindsey Dinneen: And I would love if you would just share a little bit maybe about your background and how you got started into all the cool things that you're doing, if you don't mind sharing a little bit.

[00:01:15] Christina Stanton: So I'm from Tallahassee, Florida, and born and raised. And I moved to New York city when I was 23 in 1993. So that tells you how old I am, but I moved there to be an actress. And I got a degree in music. I was a singer and my voice really fit fast on like the Broadway stage. And so I moved to New York to try my luck in becoming a Broadway actress and I loved it from the get-go. Just, I love the, the artistic community. I loved fellow actors. I love the whole process of auditioning and rehearsing and performing, and I love New York City. So it was such a great fit for me. I think actually, if I weren't a performer, I would have never moved to New York City and I would've, I would have missed out because that place is pretty much perfect from me and my, and my temperament and my personality.

[00:02:06] So moved there, 1993, and I did that for about 10 years. And after I got married in 2000, actually I started kind of transitioning out of that and exploring some other parts of myself, which was-- I was exploring my faith, to tell you the truth. And I, we, we got very very involved in a house of worship. I also became a licensed New York City tour guide and I, I did that actually in 1995 kind of as a-- to help pay the bills, right? Between acting gigs, which is what we all do up there, right? So I decided I'm a New York City tour guide. And I ended up, when I was transitioning out of acting, becoming top heavy in that industry, because I love tourism.

[00:02:50] And mainly it's because I'd fallen in love with New York. So I myself wanted to be kinda like roll out the red carpet for tourists in a way that I felt like when I moved up to New York, because I was still seeing New York as a tourist myself since I wasn't born and raised there. And so I still do that to this day and still love it. And I kind of went from performing to seeing every show and concert that I could. And I've, I think I've seen up to 500 shows and live theater events in New York City ever since I moved there. So I'm a big aficionado of, of live theater. And I spend a lot of time going to see shows.

[00:03:32] So yeah, that's, that's kind of me, my husband and I live in the financial district and we've lived in the same apartment for 20 years, which is kind of unheard of in the city. And yeah, we just, we just enjoy our lives and just kind of do our thing. And I have a lot of friends and yeah, the, the pandemic was a blip on the screen and that's what I'm hoping it will be is-- it's, it's changed us all. It's, it's been awful, but I'm hoping that, you know, soon there's a light at the end of the tunnel that we can all just kind of put this behind us, and, and go back to, to our lives. But I have to say, I think probably everybody noticed the, the lack of, of art or maybe they have a new appreciation for art because it was so lacking this past year. So I bet, I bet a lot of people have been thinking about the role art plays in their lives because we were so challenged to get that in our daily lives, you know, this past year in the pandemic. So it's taken on definitely a new, a new meaning.

[00:04:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that it's, it's so interesting how, how much art plays a daily role in our lives. And sometimes it kind of goes unnoticed a little bit. We, we don't think about the fact that, you know, everything that we're surrounded by was designed by artists, right? I mean, even a piece of furniture was designed by an artist. I mean, it's, that's that thought it's all art and it's so fun to kind of see those moments and realize, oh, yeah, our whole world is art. I love it.

[00:05:03] Christina Stanton: It really is. So I guess we've had to find it in different ways and this past year, but I, I, myself am, am excited about seeing live theater again, even though, I mean, I love seeing "Hamilton" and, and "The Prom" and other things that, that were available to us this past year, or just live theater is, is kind of my thing.

[00:05:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah. There's nothing like it. I mean, it's fantastic that there are now very cool, you know, movie adaptations of musicals and things like that. But the thrill of being there and hearing the music and, "Oh man, I can't wait."

[00:05:37] Christina Stanton: Audience, you know, having people around you who appreciate art, like you do, it's almost like this, this built-in camaraderie, this built-in kind of community. You don't even know who's sitting next to you, but you have that in common. So it's very relational.

[00:05:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Christina, I know you have a really, really specific story that you had in mind as far as sharing with us about the impact that art has had on your life. I would love if you want to dive in.

[00:06:07] Christina Stanton: Sure, sure. Well, I have to back up a little bit because my story does revolve around 9/11 and I, I won't go too much into, let's say our firsthand account, I'll just-- highlights would, would be that essentially my husband and I lived right next to the World Trade Center complex during the, right before the attacks. And we actually just moved in July the seventh, but we live six blocks away from the World Trade Center complex. And I was very familiar with the Twin Towers and the Observatory and the buildings and the shops, mainly because I'm a tour guide. I would have been a tour guide and was taking tourists on walking tours around the World Trade Center comp complex for years, you know, before the attack.

[00:06:49] So I already had kind of my own relationship with with the complex as a tour guide. And that was double because we lived right next to it. So during the attacks, and we lived on the 24th floor and we lived so close to the buildings that when, when the second plane went in, we were so close that the shock waves from that plane going into that building actually blew us back into our apartment. We had this wonderful 300 square foot terrace that overlooked the complex. So literally it blew us back into our apartment, knocked us out on the floor. I talk more about that in my book, if it sounds so spectacular to hear, hear these things, but but yeah, so blew us back, yeah, knocked us out. My hearing's never been the same. It, it just, it really, really affected us. We had to evacuate our building and we sought refuge in nearby Battery Park. But as it turns out that area, it wasn't safe at all. When the Twin Towers came down, they covered us with the dust and debris and there was actually very thick smoke from the towers that threatened to fixate us.

[00:07:58] It was, it was a horrible, life-threatening, very scary morning, so to speak. We were evacuated by a boat to New Jersey in the largest boat evacuation in history. I'm not sure if you've heard of that, but, but all these people started pooling by the coastline because we all felt trapped down there in Battery Park and the Coast Guard issued a radio call saying, "Hey, if anybody owns a boat that can hold anybody, go onto the coastline, pick people up. And drop them off at different places. We've got to get people away from, from the destruction and the danger." So we were evacuated to New Jersey and essentially we didn't get back into our apartment until the next January. So at any rate, so it was this, it was this crazy --I mean, the story that I, you know, for us, it kind of 9/11 went on and on, right?

[00:08:52] So for instance, my husband lost a very good Clemson fraternity brother in the attacks and that put him in just a real depression. Our dog clung to life for weeks after that, because he, he was covered with the dust of the buildings. He was trying to lick himself clean. There was ground up glass in that dust, which shredded his insides. So we took him to the vet and literally clung to life for, for a while after that. So our dog was sick. We were homeless. My husband's friend had died and, you know, we just have, to tell the truth, we had PTSD. So  it just kind of went on it, you know, like I said, being homeless was its own trauma. We've never had that experience before. And so by the time like May of the next year rolled around, we were back in our apartment and we were kind of navigating, you know, life and the new normal. I still wasn't working because I'm in tourism and, you know, no tourists were coming because there were still worries about the attacks.

[00:09:57] The United States had entered Operation Enduring Freedom at war. So people were staying away. I was still out of work. My husband was still, we were still struggling, right? Even the next May. And so I had read about, you know, I love live theater, go to live theater all the time. I had read about my favorite show, one of my favorite shows it's called "On on the Island." A nonprofit called Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS was putting on a one day event of the show. It was two shows in one day, May the 12th, 2002. And it was the original cast from when it was on Broadway in 1990. And I was like, " I'm going, you know, I, I need to see live theater. It's my favorite show." I don't know if it's coming back to Broadway anytime soon. I need a break. I need a mental break. I need to get out of my head. I need to be around things that I love and remind me that there's good in the world because I was still struggling to think that, "wow. I felt like somebody had tried to kill me."

[00:10:59] My whole worldview was so shaken at that point. And so we went to see this, this show that was really a fundraiser is what it was. And it was a staged reading. There was no set or costumes or anything like that, but it was the original cast. I just wanted a mental break and it just really changed me seeing the show. It had a huge impact and effect on me. I mean it achieved what I wanted it to do, but in a bigger way than I even expected.

[00:11:29]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah, that is a tremendously powerful story. Thank you so much for sharing that. And, wow. So, you know, you said that it, it changed you. Was that kind of a catalyst for being able to, to move forward, so to speak?

[00:11:50] Christina Stanton: Well, it really was because, if you know, or if any of your listeners know anything about the show "Once on this Island," it's a very basic and simple tale of a peasant girl who falls in love with a guy outside of her class. And, it actually has a beautiful ending and it's, it's just a simple-- there's, there's no flying chandeliers or helicopters within the show. It's, it's just one simple set and it's just beautiful singing. And it's a sweet story set on a Caribbean Island, which makes you feel like you're transported far away. One of the main reasons why it was effective and healing me from, from that cesspool, that turmoil I was on at the time is because the lead girl is an actress, she's still performing now, named LaChanze. So LaChanze was one of these, you know, when I moved to New York, I was all into the theater scene and I knew who was starring on Broadway. And LaChanze was a major star, still is, but she was at, you know, the height and the early mid -nineties when I moved to New York.

[00:12:59] So everything was about LaChanze and she was, she was starring in it. And so I was a huge fan, already huge fan of hers, but unfortunately had a terrible story of 9/11. She was one of these people who got married a little later in life. She had a baby and she was pregnant with her second child during September 11th attacks and her husband died in 9/11. New husband had waited a long time to be married to him, I think. And he died. And one of the towers he actually was working for Cantor Fitzgerald, which was the company that lost the most people in 9/11. I think they lost 658 employees and Calvin Gooding was one of them. And I knew that the whole theater community knew that, that LaChanze, his husband died, leaving her pregnant with her second child.

[00:13:53] And, I remember, we all thought it was just horrifying, just awful. It's the worst circumstances because, you know what? The theater community is small and we all care about each other and it's, it's a real, it's a real community. So she had starred in this show and when it came out on Broadway and 1990, 1991, and she was starring again at this two- performance only show. It was a fundraiser in 2002. So I wanted to go and hear this. Love the music, love the show, but I wanted to see LaChanze, you know, I wanted to support her. It was my way of supporting her, but also I just kind of felt like, even though she doesn't know me, that in a way we kind of had somewhat of a shared experience-- I mean hers in such a bigger way than myself, I could never relate to the loss that she has suffered, but I definitely felt like my heart blood for her. And so I went to see her and, and against the other show and to watch those actors go through the show and try to get through it, because essentially there's some very sad moments in the show. They cried their way through it, which made the whole audience go crazy.

[00:15:06] Everybody there knew what had happened. Everybody there in the audience knew what had happened to LaChanze and her husband, because people who go to these kinds of fundraisers, it's kind of like an insider thing to do. You know what I'm saying? So it was really an audience filled with actors or like extreme theater lovers, and everyone knew what had happened. So literally people were on their feet the entire performance because everybody's heart was bleeding for LaChanze, bleeding for the city, bleeding for the actors who were on the verge of tears throughout the entire show. And it just created an electric atmosphere because everybody was in on it. Everybody knew what this was and everybody was upset. And also everybody was so encouraging , to the cast.

[00:15:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that sounds like an incredible experience and yeah, the comradery, like you were saying of sitting next to people who understand and have similar experiences or even just, they can be empathic with what's happening and the way that things are being portrayed. That sounds really like, you kind of said, sort of life-transforming. Wow.

[00:16:21]Christina Stanton: You knew you were seeing something special once in a lifetime, that this would never be repeated because of this very special circumstances. So everybody was just electric. And there was nobody in that theater that had a dry eye, nobody.  At the end, there was a standing ovation for 10 minutes. I am imagining how long the show at the end of the day took. And just because, you know, and people would be yelling, "you got this," or "we love you," as the actors would go down during the show, meaning they would start crying, then people would be screaming. I mean, you never hear that during a normal performance. You don't, you don't hear people say, " we love you," you know, so this isn't a spectator.  But people really felt honestly with them and instead of, let's say us being entertained or taken away from our lives for a moment, we were literally with them, journeying with them too, to make it through, right? But also, because there's a lot of sad moments. Whenever there was a very poignant line in a song, everybody would be crying. We'd be crying because it took on a whole different meaning in the context of you know, the nation just, just had the worst terrorism on American soil, you know apart from Pearl Harbor.

[00:17:44] I remember there was one point, I was crying so hard. My husband was to the left of me. I remember there was a guy, some random guy to the right of me. He was freaking out a little bit because I was crying so hard. I mean, everybody was crying, but I, I had another level to it and he was looking at me like, are you going to survive this show, those releases, you know, just have like it was just one of the few times that I broke down because I'm not much, I'm not too much of a crier. I don't wear my heart on my sleeve all the time, but I was really breaking down because it was, it was a release, you know, it was this shared communal experience of mourning at the show, and it just really caused me to break down and, and there was something very comforting being in the midst of these beautiful people in this beautiful show. And it was like we were collectively mourning and it was just,  it was a game changer for me.  It was something I needed and I kinda needed to have that breakdown. And, you know, I felt different after I left that show, I felt that life is going to go on. My worldview doesn't need to completely change because of the attacks, but there's a lot of love and a lot of support and a lot of care in this world from a lot of people.

[00:19:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That is a perfect example of the power of art and the way that it, it doesn't just transform or, or work in the lives of those who are performing the art or doing the art. It can literally change somebody's life through an experience in just watching it or participating in some way, reading it, whatever. That is amazing. The power of the arts to heal and to inspire and to provoke is, I mean, I don't think I've heard a better example of that in my life because that's just perfect. Yeah. Wow. Well, goodness. Thank you for sharing that. And yeah, I'm so glad that you were able to have that experience and all of those people were able to have that, like you said, once in a lifetime experience, that's transformative.

[00:19:57] Christina Stanton: Yeah. I think I said earlier that I think I've seen up to about 500 different live theater events and there's three or four that stick out, that was super special and never will be repeated. And I'm so glad I went. And, that's definitely at the top and I've often wanted to tell LaChanze that how much that meant to me and I did a little article about it and it has made the rounds and I'm glad. I'm just hoping that maybe she'll stumble on it and, and realize that it did it, did people good to see that? I know that was hard to go through. It did a lot of good, I have seen her perform since then. And I've seen "Once on this Island" again, it actually came to Broadway again in 2017 and I saw two performances of that and I still loved it for sure. But nothing will top that particular night.

[00:20:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course that well, and kudos to you also for, for sharing that experience too, and encouraging the \actors involved because I'm sure you've experienced this too sometimes-- you're not quite sure how much what you do might matter, or that it does matter to other people as well. And so I think that's really special that you were able to share that experience and say, you know, essentially "thank you" because we acknowledged that that was hard, but thank you. So, yeah. Okay. So then, you know, since then, you've obviously also written and published a book about your experience, how was it writing that? I mean, that must have been just-- digging through all those memories.

[00:21:39]Christina Stanton:  It was hard to plow through and relive those things until I-- this is ironic-- and so I caught COVID. We're almost exactly a year ago. I believe I caught COVID on March 14th in New York City and it almost killed me. As a matter of fact, I was hospitalized twice. It was, it was bad. And I wrote a book about that too. So I'm guessing there that there's clearly a theme going on that writing is cathartic for me and helps me to process, but I did, it was painful to write about 9/11. But I had a a real drive and motivation to write about it because, you know, there's been like over 700 books written about 9/11, but a lot of them, when I was going down the list, I've read most of them. So a lot of them are terrorist or terrorism. Or maybe about the World Trade Center complex and the Twin Towers, or maybe the planes.

[00:22:31] And certainly those are, those are important stories to tell for sure. But I haven't heard many from a voice perspective of somebody who lived in the neighborhood and experienced it from from a resident's perspective of living through that and going back to the neighborhood and trying to resume and the new normal that it has had its own challenges. I'd seen articles about it. So I just thought to tell you truth that I wanted to add, add my voice to that. And it was a fresh perspective, so yeah, and also wanted to highlight what I learned personally through it, you know, but you know, the, the pre 9/11 was a different person than the post 9/11, and I can and I really drew on a lot of what I learned during the COVID time.  It really affected how I dealt with that tragedy and  what I learned through 9/11. So yeah, so the pre- pandemic was kind of the same as the post- pandemic because of what I had learned from 9/11.

[00:23:28] So I talk about just yeah, life lessons that I learned through it. And, you know, we, we were new in our marriage. I was, I think, 32 years old, 31 or, oh, I turned 32, September 22nd, which was, you know, just a few days after the attacks. But so we were, we were newly weds. We were, we were married only a year and a half. And so we were having such a hard time navigating a new marriage, but also, you know, seeing each other in that kind of extreme circumstance. And so by the time, you know, the "Once on this Island" rolled around the next May. We were still kind of locked in our own battle and our own internal battle that we were fighting. And you know, we emerged from that much stronger and that's one of the, the good aspects to come out of 9/11 for us. But yeah, so wasn't easy writing that book, but  it was cathartic and, and I'm kinda glad that I get, again, that perspective, because it was a story that wasn't out there, so, yeah.

[00:24:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then now you're writing another book, but I hear this one is going to be a little bit of a different theme.

[00:24:38] Christina Stanton: No more. We're done with this. Yeah. So I've been a tour guide for so many years, just when you're dealing with tourist and large groups and groups of all demographics and age ranges. And just New York being New York, lots of crazy stuff has happened. And I have one of these people that have this, this memory. I remember everything. And if you're-- I'm a freelancer, if you freelance and let's say an incident happens, like the company really wants to know, what happened? So if, if like the tourists complain, they have a heads- up of what the situation happened? So, so I have incident reports.  Crazy things happen all the time. It's a crazy city, New York City. And so I wanted to protect myself by writing out, you know, my version of abundance. And so I barely have to write. It's pretty much already written. I was going to call it "A Collection of Incident Reports," but instead I think I'll do "Confessions of a New York City Guide." It's funny. It's funny shenanigans. It's a fun romp through New York City and crazy tour guiding stories.

[00:25:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my gosh. I love it. I cannot wait to read that. Well, and on that note if our listeners want to connect with you or purchase your books and things like that, is there a way for them to be able to do that?

[00:26:02] Christina Stanton: Yeah, my website is christinaraystanton.com.  And that's all my information  of the books and my upcoming book and articles I've written and, yeah.

[00:26:13]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Woo. So excited. Well, and then I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:26:23] Christina Stanton: Yeah.

[00:26:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Okay. So the first one is, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:26:32]Christina Stanton: All right. So I think art helps us understand and appreciate and navigate life. I mean, it is life, but art bleeds over into every section of our lives and it just helps us through life. And you know, personally ,the most joy and love and sadness, the strongest emotions I feel, is through art. I'm pretty straight as an arrow and and other places in my life. But nothing makes me feel the human experience more than art does.

[00:27:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:27:18]Christina Stanton: It's to tell their truth, because we all are having such different experiences in this world that what you want is that somebody is expressing your experience somewhere in art, doing something. And you just want to connect with art that's expressing your particular experience that you're having on this planet and is sharing your human experience. And so I just think artists should be telling their truth of how they're viewing the world and their experience, because there's going to be people out there that can relate and want to relate and want that comradery, and wants somebody to quote unquote, "understand them," but I just feel like it's a shared experience. So it's a story that, that can be shared with several people.  We're not all having the same experience, but there are people out there who are having, you know, the same struggles, and the same highs and lows and joys. And they're looking at life in the world and God, and in the same way, do you want to connect  to art that is speaking to you personally.

[00:28:28]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yup. I love that perspective. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that -- inclusive, referring to an artist who puts their work out there and includes some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration behind it, something, so you kind of know a little bit about what the artist had in mind. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't share context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to interpret.

[00:29:06] Christina Stanton: Hm, actually I appreciate inclusive because I think I need a little help sometimes understanding the inspiration behind a piece of art, and I may not be able to relate to it or even agree with it. But I, I feel like I, I like to understand the artist's  intent and the message, and then I can, if I want to peel off and create my own narrative around it, I'll do that. But no, I like to, I want to know what their inspiration is. I want to know what sparked the piece of art.

[00:29:43]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Makes complete sense. Well, perfect Christina, thank you so very much for being my guest today. Your story is so fantastic and inspirational, and I'm so honored that you shared it with us and that you're sharing it with the world and, and expressing this moment that was transformative, and I just really appreciate you being here and sharing. So thank you so much and being on the show. I really appreciate it. And definitely if you're listening to this episode, please go check out her website, go buy those books and continue following her journey because obviously Christina is a marvelous person with lots of stories to share and somebody definitely to be inspired by because, gosh, you've been through some things and you're just coming out so strong and so resilient. And so just kudos to you and I can't wait to continue to see what you do and to follow your journey too. So thank you again so much. And thank you so much to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you'd share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:31:11] Do you have a story to share with us? We would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:31:20]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg  or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

In today's episode, I welcome Harlem Lennox again! Harlem is a podcaster, actor, writer, and overall creative. This episode is part two of a two-part series because Harlem has so much insight to share! She shares about finding your unique voice, the musical that allowed her to envision herself as an actress, and her specific advice for young, aspiring artists. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Harlem herself!)

Get in touch with Harlem Lennox: www.harlemlennox.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 44 - Harlem Lennox (Part 2)

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. Just a quick reminder that this is part two of a two- part series with Harlem Lennox. I am so excited to continue this conversation with her today. So if you haven't already listened to part one, I would highly encourage you to go back, listen to last week's episode first, and then jump on back to this episode because Harlem is fantastic and has so many wonderful things to share. And without further ado, part two.

[00:01:00] So I'm curious. Are there any particular stories or experiences that you've had that have kind of stood out to you as just meaningful moments that you want to hold on to, as it relates to art?

[00:01:14]Harlem Lennox: Yes. So I've got  a bunch and I'm sorting through them in my head. One experience I can say with art that was incredibly meaningful for me was when I saw "The Wiz" for the first time, I did not see it in person. I actually saw it on the TV and it's basically-- I don't know if everybody is familiar with "The Wiz"-- also, please if you're not, see it. You have to. It is a retelling of" The Wizard of Oz," but it had an all black cast. And I remember watching it as a child and I had grown up in like-- of course I had my family and stuff like that-- but outside of that I had grown up around people and artists who were mostly white. And so it was one of those things where it was just confirmation that I could do this too. Like, this is available to me as well. And it's crazy that I just didn't connect the two because of the fact that a lot of the different artists that I was around, that I actually saw in everyday life didn't necessarily look like me. And so when I saw that and saw them dancing, heard the music, it was one of the most fascinating experiences I've ever had just because it was like, not only can I do this-- and it was crazy-- one of the characters that was in the movie actually looked like my mom.

[00:02:56] And so I was obsessed with that. It was Lena Horne and I was obsessed with her for a very long time, ' cause she looked like my mom and it was just-- I watched it over and over and over again. And it was one of those moments where I could not understand how they were able to accomplish that. It wasn't just the way they looked. It was the art itself. Like how are these people able to come together and do these dances? How long did they have to practice? And it gave me a huge admiration for the work that goes into art. I think a lot of people look at the art itself, but me, I also get really, really hung up on, how much work  did you have to put into doing all of those different things? And that's kind of where it started, where I'm watching these people. I'm like, "what did it take to pull off that number?" Like how many times did they have to practice to make it sound like that? And it kind of just snowballed from there where I would learn, you know, I'd go to the art museum and I'd see a Van Gogh.

[00:04:13] And I'm just like how many times he had to paint to get him to where he is today? And I think that's where the work that goes into goes into it, and the behind the scenes that happens, that's where that started when I watched "The Wiz," because I think before that I just looked at everything. It's like, "Oh, that's beautiful. Oh, that's so great. Like, Oh, wow. That's, that's a fascinating piece." But for some reason, I guess I connected with that movie, "The Wiz," on a whole 'nother level. And it just completely opened my mind to the fact that not only is this beautiful art, but there, there are a lot of little pieces that went into it. And I don't think I understood that until that moment.

[00:05:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my goodness. I love that. And I love that perspective because I think you're right. A lot of times we'll just enjoy the finished product and not-- I mean, maybe subconsciously we kind of have a slight awareness of what it takes to do something like that-- but I love that your brain was working in that way.  What did it take to get there? I think that is just so cool ' cause the behind- the- scenes are what-- you know, that's 99% of the time spent on any production. And then the 1% is the final product. And I love your perspective about the paintings and how many did it take? Oh, that's so cool.

[00:05:43]Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Yeah. I do that with dancers a lot. I have a friend of mine who is also a dancer. She's a ballerina. And because of the fact that I was with her through her journey and saw her progression, it was just, I think it makes art that much more amazing when you realize, and really, really like connect with how much went into that. Like, she didn't just start off, you know what is it? Is it called pointe? Like when you're on your... yes, she didn't just start off doing that. And then when she told me she was like, "You know, I'm used to it now, but at first it was so painful and it was like the most..." And I'm just like how, like, you must've loved it so much to actually be able to stick with it. See, and now that I'm talking about dancers, I want to ask you like a thousand questions about your dance career. But yeah, that's kind of when I look at art, it's, it's almost like I look at the painting and I see it for what it is, but I also look beyond the painting and that makes me fall in love with it a thousand times, the more I learn about it. So, yeah.

[00:06:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, it's a fantastic story. Yes. And you know, it's so funny, you were mentioning your friend and her experience with starting pointe and, you know, it's funny because I don't remember this-- I only remember my mom's retelling of this-- but apparently I just remember being so excited to finally--' cause you, you earn it right? You get to a place where you're strong enough that you can go on pointe, and it's a big deal. And I was so excited for my first class and apparently afterwards I came and I sort of just plopped down next to my mom and said, "I don't think I'll ever be a dancer." Not true. I obviously made a full career out of it, but it's so funny because you know, that first experience was really rough.

[00:07:38]Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Yeah. The passion you must've had to stick with it. That's so crazy.

[00:07:46] Lindsey Dinneen: I know, such a learning curve. And I know everybody has those moments. I'm sure even, you know, you've had those moments as an actor or something where you just, you get to a point where like, "Oh, this was frustrating." But then, you know, you love it. So you come back.

[00:08:00] Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Definitely. I've definitely experienced that where it's like, no, this is horrible. I will never be, you know, whoever the famous person is that's doing really well at the particular time that I'm talking about this. Like I'll never be that person. And then you're just like, take a breath and get right back into it. Especially if you love it, just get right back into it. But yeah, I've definitely had those moments. My daughter is actually starting ballet. And she had a moment like that, because the person that she admires that kind of got her started on it was Misty Copeland. And because she's like, "Oh my gosh, she looks like me." And so I realized my whole family has had moments like that where it's like, "Oh my gosh, I could do it too, because this person looks like me." But I remember telling her when she was getting a little discouraged, she had a moment and I said, "You're not working to be Misty Copeland. You're working to be you. You're not supposed to be the next Misty Copeland. This is your story." And yeah, she could be your hero and stuff, but you're working to be the next you, and I cannot wait to see what that dancer does, because the person you're becoming is going to be so amazing in the story that you're going to have to tell. It's not going to be her story. It's going to be yours. So go ahead and have your moment. But remember you're not her. You're you. And so work to be that person. I cannot wait to see what you become, and the story that you have to tell when you get to that point and she was like, "Wait a minute. Somebody can make books about me."

[00:09:38]Lindsey Dinneen: That's beautiful. What a perfect response. I'm like sitting here going, "Okay. Don't tear up." It's just so beautiful. I was serious. I just, I love that. You're right. Yes. Look up to those that you admire in your art form. Look up to them, but be you. Yeah. And how special to be able to share that with her too, you know, and encourage her, even at a, at a young age of just, it's her own journey. And her own journey will be unique and it will be special and it will be hers. And that's perfect. That's beautiful.

[00:10:11] Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Yeah. That's super important to me.  That's one of the other reasons why I wanted to start the podcast because I want people to realize that, you know, you don't have to be the next, whoever it is. Like we need you in particular, like your voice, your whatever it is that you're bringing to the art world is so important and so valuable. Like, yeah, you could admire all these different people and yes, they did great things, but they brought something beautiful to the art world that we never had before. And you're going to do the same thing. If you keep working hard and you know, doing what you need to do. And we need it, like we need you in particular. So your art, whatever it is you are bringing. And I really wish that people understood that, that goes along with the whole thing about we're not trying to take other people's place where we're just adding to the gumbo pot.  I am Creole. And so it's like, we're adding to the gumbo.

[00:11:17] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that.

[00:11:18]Harlem Lennox: The different spices and stuff like that and everything you act just makes it better. And so not everything, but most things, most things that you add to the gumbo pot just makes it better. And so it's like,  if you're dedicated, then you're gonna add something very special and very meaningful to the gumbo pot or the jambalaya or whatever it is. Like, we need you. So come on.

[00:11:41] Lindsey Dinneen: That illustration is the best. I love that. Perfect. Oh my goodness. Yes. So I have a few questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:11:53] Harlem Lennox: Yeah!

[00:11:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:12:00]Harlem Lennox: Okay. So to me, art can be just about anything. I don't like telling people like, "Oh, that painting -- that's not art. That will never be art." I look at art from a very broad sense where people will probably be like, "Well, then nothing is art if everything is art." But I look at, so for example, my daughter can make something, or my son, or my other son can make something, and I will look at it as art and I will seriously react to it the same way I would react to it if somebody showed me any piece of art.  I look at nature as a form of art. The way that each tree is beautifully unique. And I have an obsession with trees and the way each tree is beautifully unique. And the simple fact that there's all these different changes and stuff like that within the universe.

[00:13:07] And so, 'cause I was actually thinking to myself last night, like even after-- you know, this is so morbid, but even after we're all gone and maybe, you know, like the dinosaurs, humans are no longer on the earth or whatever-- like the world, the earth is still going to be making art.  I look at a lot of different things as art and I define art is anything that gives a person meaning. If you can look at it and feel something within yourself, within your soul deeply. It doesn't matter what it is, whether it's a positive or negative feeling, if you can feel something and it makes you think, then I consider it as art. Did I answer that question?

[00:13:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfectly. That's exactly what I wanted, your own perspective. And I love that. Yeah, I think there's inspiration and art all around us. So I'm, I'm right there with you.  And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:14:11]Harlem Lennox: To be themselves and to be truthful about what it is that they are trying to convey, whatever it is, no matter how dark you might feel that it is, or no matter how light it is, because it just-- I feel like if you can feel something and you can get something, some type of meaning from whatever it is, then it is art. And so if you are making, whether it's a piece of music or painting, if you're dancing, whatever it is, if it has meaning, and it is true to you, then I think that is the response. That is the responsibility of an artist. I don't want an artist who tries to be the next whomever. I don't want an artist who, okay, what is everybody liking right now? Let me try to create that. And I understand that people got to do what they got to do to get where they're trying to go. And so maybe they start off that way because they're still learning. But when you get to a point where you're confident enough and brave enough to be able to produce your own work, your own truth, whatever is in your soul, then I definitely think that that people have a responsibility to bring themselves to the art world, because like I said, we need it. We don't need another Van Gogh. He's  here. He did his thing. Thank you Van. But I want to see another whomever it is: Brittany, Sam, you know, Godfrey, whoever. Bring me your art, bring me your truth. Or else it doesn't mean anything.

[00:15:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Beautiful. Yes, I absolutely agree. I just, I don't have anything to say to that. I'm just like, yep, absolutely. So true. Perfect. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to someone who puts their art out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether that's a title or show notes or the inspiration or something like that, just a little bit behind the scenes. Versus an artist who creates something, puts it out there and doesn't provide any context. So it's left entirely up to the viewer as to the interpretation.

[00:16:41]Harlem Lennox: Okay. So disclaimer, disclaimer. I hate it when people put art out there and don't tell people what the context is behind it. It's very frustrating because of the fact that I like to know the behind- the- scenes. And I like to know what that person was thinking and what inspired them. However, I definitely think that it should be both. I think that all of it, because I like the way that somebody can put something out and they know it's valuable and they know it's going to cause a reaction, but they want whatever reaction that comes from you to be natural. They want it to be something that comes from within you.

[00:17:31] I cannot remember the name of it and I actually tried to look it up, but I cannot remember the name of the artist, but I remember seeing the painting. It was at the Cincinnati art museum. I don't know if it's still there, but it was just like, it was a navy blue, almost like a navy blue background. And then it had these large streaks of just three different colors. And I think it was like red and orange, whatever, and it was abstract art and it, it drove me nuts because I'm looking at it and I'm feeling something crazy behind it. And I remember I went to one of the people that were there giving people tours and guiding people and stuff like that. And I had this very like visceral reaction to it. I'm like, "What is the point of that? Like, what is that?" And I couldn't understand why I was feeling what I was feeling. And she just looked at me like, "Oh, my gosh, you're doing exactly what he wanted you to do." And basically he said that she was saying that a lot of people have the same, like this very emotional reaction to it.

[00:18:39]Some people cried, some people like were angry about it, and it was apparently made during like right after World War II and people were feeling, you know, a lot of emotions and stuff like that. So anyway, so I want to have both. I want people to be able to make art and have a particular intention and be able to say, okay, look at this, like, this is what I'm trying to show you. This is why this is so valuable. But I also want people to be able to make art and allow people to come to their own conclusions and feel their own feelings, ' cause I think both are important even though it is extremely frustrating.

[00:19:22]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I was chuckling. When you were talking about your first statement, your opening statement. I share your opinion. I think that there should be room for both, obviously. But yes, I'm with you in that personally, I would always rather have some context to just, you know, just help me better understand it and appreciate it. Well, so for those who might want to kind of follow your journey, I know you've provided where to find your podcast already, but is there a way for us to connect with you, if you know, we could follow your journey, your acting and, and all of that?

[00:19:57]Harlem Lennox: Sure. Yeah. So you can again, go to my website, harlemlennox.com. I am also on Instagram. I do so much better on Instagram. And that's @harlemlennox, and you can follow me there. I'm actually working on making it better visually and coming up with some other stuff. So stay tuned for that. And then if anybody wants to talk to me or ask me questions or whatever, they can either do it there, or they can email me [email protected]. And then I'm also on Facebook even though, so my Instagram is actually linked to my Facebook.

[00:20:41]Lindsey Dinneen:  Perfect. And since you've had so much amazing life experience for yourself, and also you've now had the opportunity to interview so many cool artists and hear about their journeys-- I'm curious if you have just some advice for somebody who is starting out or who is maybe wanting to be an artist, feeling a little uncertain about following their path. Do you have any advice for that?

[00:21:08]Harlem Lennox: Yes. Number one, make sure that you find somebody who is doing what it is that you want to do and get some insight on what that life looks like. And so that you can make an informed decision. However, even though it seems very counterproductive, if it's something that you really want to do-- like I've had people tell me like, "Oh, you have three kids, but never heard of that." And I just say," I don't accept that. I don't accept that. I'm going to do it anyway." Thank you for the information so that I know what to expect, but if it's something that you really want do in any way, figure out a way to do it anyway. And then make sure that you are informed about the ins and outs of whatever profession that you're trying to go into, if you feel uncomfortable about something, definitely listen to that and try to figure out why. And then just keep going. Even when you get to a point where you feel like this is not working. I don't know what I'm doing. I can never get to where I'm trying to go. Just keep going, keep learning. It's a learning process. It's always going to be a learning process even to win. Even if you get to Bette Mettler status or, you know, James Earl Jones status,  you're still going to be forever learning. So continue to learn and just enjoy the journey. Don't don't think so much about the destination. Think about the journey. 'Cause that's, that's the best part to journey the struggles and all that good stuff. That's the best part.

[00:22:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you for that advice. That was fantastic. And thank you so much for being my guest, Harlem. This has been absolutely incredible and you are so inspirational and I am just smiling so big right now because this was fantastic. So thank you so much for being here today.

[00:23:11] Harlem Lennox: Thank you so much for having me!

[00:23:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode, please do subscribe to Harlem's podcast and check out her work.  She is incredible. And the work that she's doing is so fantastic and important, so please do follow her. And again, thank you for listening and we will catch you next time.

[00:23:40] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:23:49]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales's interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique.  The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

In today's episode, I welcome Harlem Lennox! Harlem is a podcaster, actor, writer, and overall creative. This episode is part one of a two-part series because Harlem has so much insight to share! She shares how her upbringing allowed her to experience art at an early age, and how a teacher encouraged her to try for bigger and bolder things in the arts. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Harlem's podcast cover image!) 

Get in touch with Harlem Lennox: www.harlemlennox.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 43 - Harlem Lennox (Part 1)

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hey there, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I just want to let you know that this episode is going to be a one of two. Harlem Lennox is absolutely amazing, and I am so excited that we were able to talk for an extended length of time, which means that I have the privilege of breaking this episode into two. So here's part one today. And part two will be available next week.

[00:00:59]Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today the brilliant Harlem Lennox. She is a podcaster, actor, writer, and overall creative, and she is just magnificent. I've had an opportunity to get to know her a little bit and she's-- I'm just so excited that she's here. So thank you so much for joining us, Harlem.

[00:01:28] Harlem Lennox: Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be able to talk to you. Of course. And so I'm curious, do you mind sharing just a little bit about your background and you know, how you got interested in art and then.

[00:01:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I mean, you, like you said, overall creative, so I'd just love to learn more about you.

[00:01:48]Harlem Lennox: Okay. So I actually come from a very creative family. I have musicians in my family. I have other actors in my family, writers, things like that. So it's kind of been just a part of my life. And then when I was younger, I was born in California, but I moved to San Francisco with my dad and I also lived in LA. So, we were always around some kind of art. My dad was very into art. He was the stereotypical San Franciscan who is vegetarian and totally into, you know, art and new age things and stuff like that. And so we definitely spent a lot of time at museums and cultural centers and stuff like that. And so, I just, I kind of grew up with art. I definitely always kind of dabbled, as I like to say, in different aspects of art, like throughout school and stuff like that.

[00:02:53] But I remember in particular, when I was in eighth grade, I was brand new to this school. It was my first year at this school and we had a play. And one of the teachers like just kind of looked at me because I volunteered to work the curtains. And she was like, "You know, you really should be up there. Like, you should be one of the characters. You should be on stage, like acting and doing stuff or whatever. You're such an animated person." And so when I left that school to go to high school, I was in drama and in theater classes and stuff like that, took them all four years.

[00:03:31] And it just snowballed from there. I couldn't stop doing it. I fell in love with it. It was a huge outlet for me, especially because when me and my father moved to Cincinnati, he became heavily into religion. And so we went from being these artistic Franciscans and, you know, involved in film and stuff-- like my dad was a DJ and, you know, in music-- and all of a sudden , we went from that to very, very strict and very demure and all that kind of stuff like that. And so being a part of theater and acting and writing and writing poetry and writing plays and stuff like that was my way of still having that connection. And still, also having that connection with my family out in California, because of course living in Cincinnati, I didn't get a chance to see them all the time. And so it was a way of me feeling connected to them as well. So yeah, it's just been a part of my life and a part of me growing up and all of that good stuff.

[00:04:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's so cool. Your, you know, your background of getting to grow up just among art or a mid start. I don't know, but anyway, that's really cool. And I just think what a, what a heritage, you know, to be able to have come from a family that does appreciate art and, and it was just a part of your life. That's really neat. And I, I love somebody recognized that your passion and your expression was underutilized, you know, and said, "Hey, you should really be up there. How cool."

[00:05:12]Harlem Lennox:  I love teachers who are able to see things, no matter what it is, whether it's art, science, whatever, and be able to see something in somebody and be able to say like, "Hey, get up there, like, don't be scared. Get up there." And I've noticed a lot of people have those stories where teachers really encourage people to get out there and do what they're naturally supposed to be doing.

[00:05:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I had some teachers that said the right thing at the right time, when you were feeling down or discouraged about progress or whatever, and they just had the right thing to say. Teachers are the best. Now, are you currently still acting? I know you're podcasting and I'd love to hear more about that in a second, but are you still acting as well?

[00:05:58]Harlem Lennox: So I do a little bit of acting. It's mostly right now, me studying and trying to get better at it. I think because of COVID, it's been super slow as far as the acting. And so I'm trying to take this time to learn more. And even though that's really difficult, I was recently  on a Zoom acting thing. It was the one minute plays and it was being held over Zoom. And so it was so crazy. I'm so glad that they didn't tell us because it was actually viewed by people like in other countries and stuff like that. I was already very nervous because of course I'm not used to acting on Zoom. And so I was very happy that they didn't tell me that it was being viewed by so many different people, but that's pretty much the most I've been able to do since COVID started. So I'm just trying to utilize this time to learn more, read more, learn more about, you know, film and different things like the differences between the arts and stuff like that.

[00:07:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And it is a good time to kind of continue learning and growing on your own, and then hopefully things will start opening back up and we'll get back to our full artistic selves. But yeah, good for you for taking this time and still devoting yourself to, to continuing to learn and grow . Oh my goodness. Yeah. Kudos to you for that, that video opportunity. That does sound very intimidating. I'm so glad it went well, though.

[00:07:34]Harlem Lennox:  Yeah, the whole time I was so nervous. Oh, I was so nervous.  I'm used to being on stage. And you know, the great thing about being on stage is the lights are so bright that you barely see that. So it's kind of this nice little imaginary wall that you have to kind of keep you from being as nervous as you normally would be. But then if you're on screen, like you're looking at everybody, everybody's looking back at you. You're right there, front and center. It was scary, but it was awesome too.

[00:08:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. Seeing reactions up close and personal and oh. That is what I do really like about being on stages, not being able to see the audience, which sounds terrible, but it just makes me less nervous, you know? I feel like I can concentrate better. I'll just put it that way.  So then really recently, actually, you started a podcast and I would love if you'd share just more about that.

[00:08:31]Harlem Lennox: So the podcast is called Harlem with a View and basically it talks to different creatives about their creative journey, different topics within the creative community. And, and basically creating community. I definitely want to be able to not only promote people and their art, but also be able to have connections with people. And I'm hoping that later on down the line, I'll actually be able to do some educational work for different actors and just artists in general, just because I think that sometimes not all creatives, that some creatives kind of either don't know how to, or forget about like the business aspect of it. And you know, the accounting and the taxes and all the stuff that we probably could care less. And so I want to be able to have an educational aspect to it as well, to help either people who have been in it and are still struggling, or people who are going into it and have no clue what they need to do as far as that's concerned.

[00:09:39] But I like to talk to creatives about the different things that they do, creatives of all genres about the different things that they do. And I noticed there are other podcasts that are like mine, but they kind of steer away from some of the harder subjects, like when it comes to race, when it comes to just heritage and different things that are going on within that community. I've also noticed that a lot of people, whether it's intentional or unintentional, they tend to Interview people from a very, very small demographic. And so I'm trying to expand that and give everybody an opportunity to tell their stories. And it has been a learning process because I am a black woman, but at the same time, my story is not the same as everybody else's story. And so it's like, I'm hearing so many different stories and people getting an opportunity to really, really add something to the creative world. And it is so exciting to see what is going on.

[00:10:52] And another reason why I wanted to start it was to also help kind of open the doors of different small, you know, communities of creatives to be able to open those doors. Like, hey, you know, we're doing awesome stuff over here too. Look at what we're doing! And kind of give people an opportunity to, to look at like what's going on in Cincinnati and the small community, our community in Cincinnati, and what's going on in Tennessee, Texas, and all these different places and kind of bring these people together and just consume art.

[00:11:29] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Well, and you know, I love it because obviously I have not the same concept for a podcast, but obviously complementary, I'll put it that way. And so I just love what you're doing and commend you for that work. And I, I totally agree with you. And sometimes it's, it's difficult, especially maybe when you're starting out, because you kind of gravitate towards people that you already know. And, but I agree, it keeps the circle pretty small, so it's nice to be able to start  branching out and getting to hear very different perspectives than your own. And so yeah. Good for you. That's, that's fantastic. Well, I'll just go ahead and dive right into that. So where can we listen to your podcast?

[00:12:14]Harlem Lennox: So I published my podcast through a site called Anchor. So it basically puts your podcast on many different platforms. So I'm on Spotify. I'm on Apple Podcast. I'm on Stitcher. I'm on a lot of different things, but then you can find more information about my podcast and actually listen to my podcast on my website, HarlemLennox.com and be able to find all the different things. So if you go to Anchor, you'll be able to also find all the different places or other places that it's posted.

[00:12:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yeah. So now I'm curious, as you've been listening to people share their journeys and stories, has there been anything that really stood out to you that was surprising?.

[00:13:05] Harlem Lennox: One thing that I think was surprising is the fact that, so it's one of those things where it's like, you know  something to be true, but until you actually experience it, it's still a theory in a way. And so when you go on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, people tend to be pretty angry about certain things. And it's like, you're getting a snapshot of, of how they feel, and they're commenting on something very specific, but then when you hear their stories and you hear just what they've been through and stuff like that, there is the sense of not being angry necessarily. It's more so like, "I'm not trying to take your stuff. I just want to be included. I'm not trying to take over. I just want to be included." And this feeling of, "my voice is important too. Like I'm not trying to shut off your voice and my voice is important too."

[00:14:11] And I've always been the type of person that wanted to be more, like, open the door for everybody rather than have that sense of like, okay, well there's not room for everybody. So if you know, we're going to have this group of people come up, then obviously it means that we're shutting these people down. I've never been that person. And so being able to hear these stories and hear these people say like the, the thing that you thought, the theory that you had, was correct. We're not coming in and we're not trying to take over. We just want to tell our stories and be able to share our experience and let people see the real me. And even though it's one of those things where I already knew that within myself. And I already felt that within myself, being able to hear people actually come out and say like, we really do want to be a community.

[00:15:14]It was, was very eye-opening because of course, when you're on social media, most of the times you just get the anger and that's the sense that you get from reading some of the comments and, and stuff like that. Like, people are just tired and fed up of not being heard. And so being able to hear people say, like, "I just want you to see who I am, and I just want you to be able to like really experience me. And this is not, you know, what you see on TV, what you see in theater and, and different things like that, that doesn't tell the whole story." And it's been very humbling, you know, and it's like, I'm a part of these different marginalized communities and different things like that. But again, we're not all the same person. We don't all have the same feelings and thoughts. And so being able to experience that has been absolutely amazing.

[00:16:13] And then the other thing that has been absolutely amazing is to be able to connect with people who actually do have these extremely interesting stories. I'm somebody who not only is a creative, but I have an obsession with history and there are so many things that I just like-- of course I'm not supposed to know everything-- but there's so many things that I didn't know and understand. And I'm learning something every time I talk to all of these different people. And so hearing all of these different experiences and like, "Well, this is what actually happened." Or, you know, this is what I have been told, like some insight from within this community, like being able to get the 411 from the people who actually experienced it, like I've learned so much stuff, it's insane. And it's actually fueled my history buff self, because I've been now researching all these different things, like, hold on a second. I thought this, this is the way it went, but it actuality it might've gone this way. So it, it has been a huge learning experience, just all around. And I think it's also going to make me a better actor and a better writer because it helps me understand more about the world. And you definitely need that as an actor and as a writer.

[00:17:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Wow. That is so powerful. I'm just sitting here listening and that is so cool. And I, and I agree with you. I think stories matter so much. I mean, having the context matters and like you said, sometimes it's easy to-- or I'm extrapolating from what you said, actually-- but sometimes, you know, you read something on social media and like you said, it just comes across as very fed up or done or whatever and frustrated. And that makes sense when you have the context of, like you said, "I just want to be included. I just want a seat at the table." And providing space for that, for somebody to share their stories and to tell their truth and to invite you into, because sometimes it's, it's just a matter of not knowing until you have that context. That's such a cool thing that you do and that you get to share with the world , and I think that's just incredibly, incredibly important. So thank you for doing that work, so to speak, but I know, I know for you, it's been great too, but, but thank you for that. That's fantastic what you're doing.

[00:18:49] Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for saying so. I'm hoping that it has the same impact that it is. It has been, I'm hoping that it's as enriching for other people as it has been for me, 'cause it's just, it's so valuable and I'm hoping that other people are feeling that as well.

[00:19:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely.  As soon as I heard her say this, I have thought about this so much-- Michelle Obama talked about, she was talking about-- well, actually, I'm sorry, I don't remember the context-- but what she said was that "It's hard to hate up close." And I think that's such a profound thing that she said, because you're right. You, you won't, you shouldn't anyway, but you know what I mean? But, the closer you get to somebody and their story and their experience hopefully the human reaction is empathy, and, "Oh my goodness. I, I didn't realize that." So yeah, kudos to you.

[00:19:45] Harlem Lennox: Theater has-- just acting in general, I think even though other people do it and not everybody comes to the same conclusion-- I think that's one of the great things about theater, because like I said, when we moved to Cincinnati, my father became very conservative. He became very like-- 'cause I'm not really sure, 'cause there are people who are religious, who are not, you know what I'm saying-- like small minded. So I don't want to say super religious. It just became extremely, extremely, extremely conservative. And so I guess, for example, when it came to homosexuality, I was taught certain things. And from within the church, and it was crazy because I, I knew something wasn't right about it, especially growing up in California where you meet all kinds of different people and you're around all kinds of different people.

[00:20:39]And so it never really made sense to me, but when I was a part of theater and there are a lot of different people, you know. In theater that's where all the the weirdos go, where the rejects go. Like we all go to the theater and that's where we find our home and our common ground. And so me as a black woman going there and being feeling like I, I was seen and understood, and then being able to meet people from that community and being able to say like, "Oh my gosh, they're not anything like what I was told." Like, they're just, they're just normal people. And this is me being a kid having this experience. And so theater taught me to think outside the box and to see people as just like me, they're human beings with these beautiful stories that are just like everybody else. And so that was something I don't even know where I would be today. I guess in my thinking, if I didn't have that, if, if somebody else would've came into my life and been able to share that with me.

[00:21:54] And it also helped me, 'cause I'm glad I got that experience because my mom had come out to me. And so having that experience in theater and being able to be around those people-- like when my mom told me, she came out as bisexual. And so when, when my mom told me that, that that was something that she was going to, you know, she was going to live her best life. It was easy for me. And it was just like, okay. And she automatically thought because of the way I was being raised by my father, that I was going to, you know, feel a certain type of way about her. And I was like, "No, that's great. Like now I can actually talk to you about these things that I've been learning about in theater." I'm just like, "Oh my gosh. Thank you. Thank you." Like another adult to be like, I actually have a parent that I can have honest conversation about. And none of that I don't think would have ever happened if I didn't have the experience that I had with acting and with theater. So yeah, I'm hoping that other people also are able to learn to meet people where they are and see them up close in a way through my podcast and podcasts like yours as well.

[00:23:06]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.  Theater is such a great place-- dance is similar too as well-- is it's just a great place to meet people from all different kinds of backgrounds and experiences and stories and to move in and to share life and to learn and grow and do better. Yeah. So that's really great that you had that experience.

[00:23:33]Quick reminder, Artfully Told listeners. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm so grateful for that. And quick reminder that we are going to do part two next week. So stay tuned and enjoy another wonderful session of inspiration from the amazing Harlem Lennox. And until then, we will catch you next time.

[00:24:01]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:24:12]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales's interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique.  The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.