Artfully Told

In today's episode, I welcome Emily Moores! Emily is an installation artist based out of Ohio. She creates largescale, original designs out of hand-cut paper to provide a joyful moment in time for her viewers to take everything in. She shares about why she doesn't feel the need to define art, how being fully present brings better perspective to an art interaction, and the importance of creating playful art. (Fun fact: the cover image is a photo of one of Emily Moores' art installations!) 

Get in touch with Emily Moores: www.emilymoores.com | www.instagram.com/emilymoores_art 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

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Episode 42 - Emily Moores

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey and I am so excited to introduce to you today, Emily Moores. She is an installation artist focusing on hand- cut paper, and thank you, Emily. So very much for being here and for sharing your stories about art.

[00:00:54] Emily Moores: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:00:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would absolutely love if you would share just a little bit about exactly what being an installation artist means and what that process looks like, and also just sort of how you got involved. This is fascinating to me. I'm so excited to learn more.

[00:01:14]Emily Moores: So as you said, I'm an installation artist that focuses mainly using hand-cut paper. Over the past year, I've started using other things like fabric or lights in my artwork, but an installation is like an immersive sculpture. It's something that is made to fit a particular space. And if you move or transfer it to a new space, it adapts to that space. So it's not something-- like a sculpture stays the same, regardless of what room it's in, whereas the installation kind of fits into the space. So what I really love about installations are they, there's something that you have to live in the moment. It's not something that you can come back to when it's moved to another gallery. It's-- you have to be present for it when it's in this space at that particular time.

[00:02:05]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's amazing. And so how did you get started into that artistic endeavor in the first place? Or what kind of, what is your background, what it kind of prompted you that direction?

[00:02:18]Emily Moores: Well, I went to art school and I got a degree in painting. I took a few years off and I mostly stayed within drawing and painting. And then I went to the University of Cincinnati to get my master's degree in studio art. And it was while I was at that program that I started to take things-- I started to cut apart my drawings and break away from like a flat space. And so for my like final thesis for my master's project, I ended up building like a large scale installation in a stairwell. And so that kind of is where the starting point for me and how I built myself into a 3D space.

[00:03:02]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes complete sense. And how cool to go from, like you said, just cutting up your own artwork and realizing that it can transform into something completely different. Love that. I love that about art. And so, you know, growing up, were you always drawing and, and painting or whatever? I mean, like, have you always kind of been an artist or did that interest develop later?

[00:03:24]Emily Moores: I had always been-- I guess I had always been an artist. I was fortunate enough to have my parents signed me up for Saturday afternoon art classes when I was younger. And I was just never really good at anything else. And so I ended up only applying to go to art school and that was kind of the only vision I had for myself.

[00:03:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. I think when you start growing up that way and it's just like, okay, well, this is the course of the natural next step. Yeah. So, okay. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the work that you do and maybe some different experiences that you've had. You had mentioned that it doesn't stay the same when it's from one gallery or space to another. And I'm kind of curious what you mean by that. Obviously I'm sure the space dictates quite a bit of, of how it's maybe laid out. Forgive me if I'm not using all the correct terminology.

[00:04:22]Emily Moores: It's, so basically like let's say, okay, so a couple of months ago there, I built an installation for ROY G BIV Gallery in Columbus, Ohio. And so I had two nooks in the gallery, and then I had a window space. But the nooks were like seven feet wide was one, and then I think the other one was like five feet wide. And so the way that I built the beams, the beams were built for that space. So if I were to, if somebody were to request that artwork again in a different space, I would have to kind of alter the beams to fit because they were like nailed into the wall. And then they were the support structure to hold the paper and the lights up. And so I would have to kind of refigure the wood and kind of cut it into different configurations so that it would fit into a corner because not every gallery is going to have like a seven foot wide nook.

[00:05:19]And so, and I think a lot of times too, when we think of like, how everything is documented in our lives, constantly with our phones. And  there's something that I really love about installations in that a lot of times, especially when they're larger, you can't get them all in one picture. You have to  move around from different vantage points. And also with the temporary feel of it, you know, you can't wait for it again. Like, it's something that you have to be there.  You have to move around the space in that moment.  I do love, and I feel really flattered, when people take pictures and post them on Instagram of my artwork, but I still love the idea that they have to physically move and walk around and that you can't basically take a picture and kind of hold onto it completely, you know?

[00:06:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think that's a really special thing about walking through installation art, and I haven't had as much opportunity as I would love to, but I think that those experiences have been the most memorable. I mean, even as you were talking, I was thinking about some of the various installation art I've gotten to witness and it is kind of a magical experience because you're-- you're right-- you can't capture it in one frame and one instant and that's special, cause you, you kind of have to explore or come back, you know, to fully appreciate it. So that's really cool. Yeah. And now do you work both inside and outside with your work?

[00:06:49]Emily Moores: I have not worked outside. It's not something that I'm opposed to. I haven't had a chance yet. So most of mine  within the past year or so have been all indoor installations, but they've been  looking through a window. So there's like the vantage point of looking in the gallery. But then also when you walk outside of the gallery, like looking through a window at the artwork, and so  when I am constructing the installation, I'm thinking about the composition of  when you're inside the gallery looking at it, but then also as you're walking past it in the window.

[00:07:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, neat. Okay. Very cool. And then as far as the various locations that you've been able to do work in, do you mostly work in a certain geographic area or have you been able to travel with your installations or anything like that?

[00:07:36]Emily Moores: So I've done mostly like local shows as of right now, like I'm have two small children and so going long distances isn't as much of an option right now. And I think I think there's a lot of benefit to doing local shows. Because the people who are coming to see your artwork already have a familiarity with your work. And so the kind of conversations you have, like people are asking how you transitioned or transformed or people already kind of feel comfortable with like thinking about  the paper that I'm cutting or noticing, you know, kind of different techniques that I'm using. And so I think there's a lot of value in exhibiting or continue to exhibit in your local community.

[00:08:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And kind of build that reputation and build that community, you know, of people who are like, "Oh, you're doing a new one. I want to come back and see that." Yeah. Yeah. That's neat. So with your artwork, I'm sure, obviously, you always have a lot of intentionality behind what you do of course, but are there specific themes that really kind of pull at you that, that are really important for you to express, or is that also dependent on how you're commissioned or how was that whole process? How was the creative process for you?

[00:08:54]Emily Moores: I would say, so my creative process is usually I build like a little model of the gallery out of foam core. And then I play around with like a tiny version in my studio space, but a lot of times I'll have  a basic vision or an outline with the larger materials. So like over the summer, I was in an installation at the Riffe Gallery and I had like three triangles made out of wood that were kind of like little pyramids, just like three beams kind of going up. And those were pre-planned, but there was a lot of it that I built to fit. I kind of like build components. And then after I get the main structure set up, then I'm walking around the gallery, thinking about how the viewer, like, when the viewer walks into the space, what are they first going to look at? You know? And then when they walk past, what is going to change.

[00:09:49] And so a lot of times I can just build the main structure and then I go into the actual physical space and thinking about the person who's standing there, looking at it. And one of the themes that I think about a lot is being playful. And I also think about like using a sense of texture too. I guess going off on the installation is helping you be present in the space of the gallery. One of the things that I really am inspired by is a book by Susan Best called " Visualizing Feeling" where she talks about an effect, which is like, it's not exactly your feelings, but it's like if you-- you know how, like you can feel people like looking at you, even though you might not be looking at them, or you might be able to walk in and feel like a sense of danger or you can feel a mood. And so thinking about that, when you're engaging a work of art. And so a lot of times I try to use texture as a way to be playful and kind of create that feeling. But also kind of like push the viewer to like walk around and be curious and and to kind of like playful light-hearted way.

[00:10:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah, so a lot of textures and I, I love texture in art that always-- I don't know why it just, it, it speaks to you on such a different level. I just think it's always so cool  whenever it's used. Yeah. Lots of texture. Okay. Now are all of your exhibits or your installations, do they, are they kind of view- only, or because there's that texture aspect, have any of your installations been something that people were invited to actually physically touch, like participate that way or?

[00:11:34] Emily Moores:  I am not opposed to moving into a place where people could touch it, but right now they are not. They're just for your eyes only. So, and some of the times I use like little wires or it could, you know, maybe they  would need to be more secure if people were to start like touching them or engaging them. So, because I usually use  tiny little wires to attach the paper to each other. And so while it's the cure to like, hang up on its own, it's not secure to be like, touched on or pulled on,  you know?

[00:12:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Well, and you know, it's not like that's something that has to happen or something. I was just curious, cause I know some artists end up creating some things that, that that's part of the intention behind it, which is kind of cool too. Okay. So you mentioned, you know, the playful aspect, which I love. I think that's really a charming thing that you do. Do you also use your artwork to address things, concerns that you have or to speak about? Like current events-- not that you have to, because I think there's so much room for so many different kinds of art and I'm, you know, like I think the whole spectrum is fantastic, but I'm just curious. Do you use some of what you do to speak out about, you know, things that are important to you or is most of what your work does for, you know, for that experience, for that joy, for that playfulness?

[00:13:00]Emily Moores: I would say it's not really connected to current events in that it leans more for the joy or playfulness. I think about it more like an abstract painting where like, when you think about the brush strokes creating a sense of movement, and your eye going through the composition of a painting, that these are like textures that are pulling you in and out for this kind of like immaterial, but like feeling of engagement where you're like walking and exploring maybe like a, a real life or 3D kind of painting, abstract painting.

[00:13:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, cool. I love that description. That is so fun to think about it in those terms. All right. Very cool. Now, have you dabbled in other art forms as well? Or is your primary focus right now your installation art, which I'm sure takes up an extensive amount of time?  You talked about your process being starting very small with these models and then kind of building out from there. So obviously you're, you're very engaged with your work, but do you do other art firms as well? Or is this kind of your gig?

[00:14:08]Emily Moores: I play with-- sometimes between like a lot of installations I'll make like wallwork, so there'll be like sculptures that hang on the wall. And a lot of times it's like taking the remnants or the leftovers from my installations and playing with them in a new way. And so I'm able to kind of like push ideas or like different uses of colors, like quickly.  I'm going to be veering into that direction right now because I'm finishing up my big projects. I've been storing my scraps, and so I will kind of like use a smaller wallwork as a way to kind of rethink how I'm moving my colors or the scraps of paper or the textures.

[00:14:50]Lindsey Dinneen: So cool. Very cool. Now you had mentioned-- and I loved this-- you had mentioned being able to do quite a bit of indoor work last year. And last year as we all know, was a little wonky, to say the least. So I'm curious, how did COVID affect your work or, or did it? Or did it make things adapt or your galleries change or whatever? What was the outcome for you?

[00:15:16] Emily Moores: Well, the first exhibition I had last year, I set it up and then like a week later everything was shut down. So the gallery was not really prepared for that. And it was also on a college campus. And so they, nobody really saw that exhibition. But then when I was at the ROY G BIV Gallery, they did like virtual. They did a lot of like social media. In Instagram, I got to do an Instagram takeover, which was really helpful. And they also, you could look, look at things through the window and they also did like scheduled tours too. So you could schedule it with your, like, wear your mask and just go one at a time into the, or like, like your family could go one at a time. And then, over the summer, I was at the Riffe Gallery in Columbus, Ohio, and they we did some virtual artists talks. But a lot of it was just like posting online. They did an artist talk on YouTube where they walked around the gallery and talked about the artwork that was in the show. So that was helpful because then people who were out of state, you know, that I was familiar with, I could just email them the YouTube link of the exhibition talk. So.

[00:16:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's nice to have that ability to share your art actually with maybe a wider audience than you would have necessarily. Yeah. And I love the fact that those galleries were so innovative in their approaches. I've just been so impressed with the adaptability-- and of course we shouldn't be surprised, this is what artists do, right? But I've just been so impressed with the adaptability and flexibility that I've seen with that kind of thing in mind, like sure --one- at- a- time tours or one group at a time, or look through the window or let's do this virtually. That is really cool.  I'm so glad to hear that you were able to do a lot of work regardless. That's encouraging. So I'm curious, are there any stories that kind of come to mind of times where maybe either you watch somebody react to some art work that you had done, or you went to go see some art and you had this sort of gut reaction or this moment that you thought I really need to remember this? This is kind of something that stands out to me as an encounter with art?

[00:17:34] Emily Moores: Yeah. I do not remember the artist's name off the top of my head, but I went to MOCA in Cleveland and there was an like a installation where you walked in and sat down, like you were in a movie theater and then you put on these headphones. And then the artist had done like where you stick the microphones into-- so you do like two microphones that she stuck into foam heads when she recorded. So when you put these headphones on, it would sound like she was right behind you because the speakers matched your ears. So she was like whispering in your ear while you were like watching this movie and you couldn't focus because it really felt like there was a person like standing behind you, like making fun of the movie. And, and so I really love artwork that I guess kind of throws you off a little bit and kind of makes you-- I guess, I don't know. I just really had one that was really memorable because it was just so  unexpected, I guess.

[00:18:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. Unexpected. That's a great word. Yeah. So essentially things that surprise you because maybe they're a little bit different or a little bit more innovative, or like you said, like having her voice feel like it was right behind you, immersed in this experience. That's really cool. Yeah. And then, do you often have an opportunity to witness people witnessing your art or is it more you set it up and then, you know, people kind of witnessed it on their own time.

[00:19:05]Emily Moores:  I would say that there's like, so as I'm building it, a lot of times people, you know, before COVID, would come up and talk to me about what I was doing and I really love that engagement. And also  you can watch people interact with it during the opening, but especially now with social media, you know, if people tag you,  you can see their reaction when you're not in the gallery. So, or kind of like learn more about what they say when they talk about like what they're looking at. And so I think that that's also really powerful too.

[00:19:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. So I have a few questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:19:54]Emily Moores: I know maybe this isn't like the right answer, but I actually don't really worry about defining art because I think there's a lot of people who push, you know, especially when you think about like the past. A hundred years where people are like doing social practices, art, or they're switching into doing installations and all of these norms were broken, but they're still really meaningful ways of engagement. Sometimes I think if we get too caught up in trying to define something, then we can lose our ability to be open. And, and so I'm not-- I guess I'm not as concerned with having a definition. I know for me, I definitely practice within like the realm of installation and within, you know, making wall works. You know, like maybe I'll go back to making paintings or drawings, but like if I were to walk into a gallery and there's like a performance and it's mostly dance, I don't feel like I wouldn't necessarily want to adhere to a definition.

[00:20:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, I actually love that answer because I have never heard it said quite like that. And I, I agree with you. I think, I think sometimes we can get bogged down too much in the definitions, but I love your openness.  Okay. And then also, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:21:20]Emily Moores: I think that there are a lot of different kinds of roles for different kinds of artists. Like some artists have you reflect on, you know, historical events or connect you to maybe an idea or group of people that you wouldn't have a connection with. And I guess in any situation, whether, you know, like if I'm just creating artwork to be playful, I'm still creating a connection to this like physical, tangible object existing in space. And so for me, I would say artists create connections where we maybe haven't thought about them previously.

[00:22:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Mm. Yeah. I love that. Yes, and you're, you're completely right --the playfulness matters. I mean,  it's so important to have art be fun and joyful too. I mean, again, like I was saying earlier, it can do so many things, but I just, I love that what you do is playful. That's fantastic. We need that in our world.

[00:22:22]Emily Moores: I was at a baby shower recently, and somebody told the expecting mother that all the cliches that people say about having a baby are completely true. And in some ways, like when you think about these things that you talked about, or maybe were cliche from like kindergarten. So sometimes I think about, do you remember that book about, was it Ferdinand the mouse? Or maybe it wasn't Ferdinand. It was a little mouse who all the other mice were working and he was like collecting images of colors in his head and he kept them going through winter. I don't remember the name of that book, but sometimes it's kind of like these moments of play. Especially, you know, before COVID, so much of our culture was just like rushing and trying to accomplish so many things and if you're always rushing, you know, like you miss all these beautiful moments in your life. And so, and even now with so many people being quarantined and things are struggling, taking these moments of playfulness are still really important. And so sometimes those things that seem cliche are still really important.

[00:23:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely amen to that. Love it. Okay. And then my final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll define my terms a little bit. So inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provides a little bit of context behind it, whether it's their inspiration or program notes, or it titles, something. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context so it's left solely to the viewer or participant to make of it what they will.

[00:24:08]Emily Moores: I would probably say a little bit of both, and kind of like, depending on the artist, their intent, like leaning towards one way or another. So like, if somebody is creating artwork about a historic event and they want you to feel a connection to something that happened, that inclusiveness of creating like a wall text, or like parameters for how to look at the artwork would be really important. Whereas for me personally, I don't feel like when people walk in to look at my installations, I don't think that they need to really know.  My artwork is not biographical. It's not necessarily connected to anything specific, other than like wanting people to be present in the moment in a really playful, engaging way. And so I don't, for me, I wouldn't say that I need to have that wall text, you know? So it kind of, it kind of depends on what the artist's intentions are, but I feel like both are valuable.

[00:25:10]Lindsey Dinneen: I agree with you. Yeah. I liked that a lot. Perfect. All right. Well, first of all, Emily, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your stories. And it's so interesting to me to hear about your process and how installation art just changes and adapts. And I love that seems just like a perfect metaphor for artists and art in general. So.

[00:25:36] Emily Moores: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity. Yeah.

[00:25:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! Yeah. And I would love if our audience is able to connect with you or follow your work, or now, since some of your things are virtual, I guess we can mostly all engage. Do you mind sharing a little bit of, kind of how to, to follow your journey?

[00:25:57]Emily Moores:  I have a website. It's just emilymorres.com. But if you go to my biography, that's where all the links are going to be, like the curator talks or any kind of like interviews I've given. And then also I post on Instagram. So it's @emilymoores_art. And those are more like studio shots, which my studio is a little crazy. I think the most recent shot is my daughter. She just like squirted the paint and was like washing her hands in it. She's learned how to open the paint. So that is a little messy right now.

[00:26:29]Lindsey Dinneen: Aww, I love it though. I love the behind the scenes. I, I often joke with fellow artists about how sometimes there's this perception that an artist's life is really glamorous, but if you look behind the scenes, you know, there are moments of glamor for sure, but that's maybe like the 5% and the other 95% is messy.  Yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much again, Emily. I really appreciate your time today and sharing your stories, and I'm excited to take a look at some of your artwork and I'm sure our audiences as well. And I just appreciate what you do. I love your stance on playfulness and joy, and just that's that's so cool what you do. So thank you. And thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you are as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:27:30] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:27:40]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales's interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique.  The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

In today's episode, I welcome Darnell Benjamin again! This is part two of a two-part interview with this incredible actor, filmmaker, choreographer, dancer, and all-around amazing artist. He shares his heart about bringing dance to more people, and how fortunate he always feels to be an artist. His interview is truly inspiring, so enjoy part two today!

Get in touch with Darnell Benjamin: www.13thandrepublic.com | https://www.facebook.com/darnell.p.benjamin | www.instagram.com/darnell.p.benjamin 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 41 - Darnell Benjamin (Part 2)

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here--just a really quick moment to let you know that this is part two of a two-part interview. If you recall from last week , we actually broke this episode into two different recordings because it was so good. Darnell has so many wonderful things to share with us. And the interview just is a little bit longer than our typical episode length. And so if you'll recall, part one was last week. Part two is this week. If you haven't already listened to part one, I would highly encourage you to go back and do that real quick before you jump onto today's episode so that it flows really well for you, but you are in for an absolute treat, and I am so excited to share Darnell with you once again. And without further ado, enjoy.

[00:01:25] Darnell Benjamin: It's like, I don't know about you. I think a lot about how, you know, the people who inspired me and I, you know, we all have those people who really just inspired us and why we do what we do. And , and, and some, for me, it came so late. And, it's been a very important thing for me to try and visibly be that person that I wish I would have seen. I never growing up seeing a really, really out queer black man. I, I didn't accept, you know, obviously you can see these people on TV, but that can feel very removed. You know, I didn't see that in my community.

[00:02:06] And so it's been very important for me to, to be that person and to be unapologetic about it. And, and know that you can know that I can still be unapologetic about it, but still be able to not lose my sense of being grounded. You know what I mean? Not getting so sort of removed and unapologetic to where you don't, where you disconnect with people. Like for me, I thrive on those connections with people and I thrive on even the connections with my students. And I try to be that person that I wish I could've seen. You know, that's what it boils down to. And now granted, you know, we all have good days and bad days. Haha! 'Cause there was some days that I, I don't know if I'm winning at being that person, but that's a part of the cycle. And, and, and I didn't know. I mean, I'm just, I'm grateful to have even had an opportunity to share that story. You know, I really am. I really, really am.

[00:03:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That, that is incredible. So yeah. Good, good for you and, and good for you for, you know, wanting to be that for the people coming behind you, right? Not just, you're not just sort of reflecting on, "Oh, I didn't have that. Oh, that's too bad." But you know, "Oh, I didn't have that, but I wish I could have, and I know that I can be that for someone else," so, yeah.

[00:03:29] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. And even looking at this pandemic right now and thinking about how--oh, my goodness, I don't know about you-- but this pandemic has really made me feel so small. It's made me realize how small we are all are in the larger spectrum of things, and so what I've been doing, I'll share this. I've been going back to all of those favorite movement books that I'd read in the past. And I've just been sort of immersing myself in being reminded of basic-level things. Like I re-read the "Viewpoints" book. I re-read the Labon efforts book. I re-read both Tadashi Suzuki books that I have, which is what, is The Art of Acting." And then there's also "On the Technique of Acting." I read that one. I've just been kind of reimmersing myself into--because coming from a dance background, it, it was a no-brainer for me that in the work that I do as an actor, it always comes from a movement perspective. I can't not. Like that's the first thing my brain thinks is, how does this character walk ? You know, little things like that. And going back to the basics, that's been, it, it's been kind of humbling and very, just kind of, it's just kind of nice to be reminded of how small we all are. You know what I mean? I, I've been in that place of being reminded of that and being gracious. So that's, that's, that's, that's where I am right now in regards to all that.

[00:04:59] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. I love it. You know? Yeah. I just love the fact that that art can do that kind of thing for us. And, and that's what makes it so special. And, you know, before we started recording, we had a chance to chat a little bit, and you had talked a little bit about how you feel that art can be experienced by everybody in different ways, sort of. Do you want to chat more about that?

[00:05:26] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. I mean, I think about like, for example, growing up in a small town in Southern Louisiana , my family, you know, they, they are not people who are big art people. And I think some of that comes from the perspective they have of not being invited to or are a part of that world. But I was just the kid who art was where I--there was never a question--I mean, it, it was so clear to me that this is the world in which I sit. And what I found is that, you know, growing up in those environments -- my family that, you know, it's kinda not the greatest story in the world, but my dad, he passed away in March unexpectedly and he had been telling me-- the last thing my dad had seen me do and as far as performance was in grad school, and that was like in 2008 and here we are now, you know, in 2021, he passed in March of 2020. And he kept saying, every year, "I'm going to come to Cincinnati. I'm going to see something you're doing when it come to Cincinnati. I'm going to see something you're doing." And that's over and over again.

[00:06:29] It's the same thing with my mom's side of the family. And they don't, you know, and I know a big reason why that is, is because they and, and I'm only speaking the words that they, my mom particularly, has said to me herself is that she sometimes will say she doesn't get it. She doesn't get it and I, I, it's so easy for people to think that art is above them. And I think that's really a sad thing. The reality is that art is for anybody and everybody. Now granted that are a particular piece of art may not speak to you. And that's valid. I don't think anybody should feel guilty because something doesn't speak to them. I think about, for example, Beyonce, as much as everybody loves Beyonce, I'm just not that much of a fan. And I don't feel badly. And I'm a gay black man and people get mad at me about not being a fan. But my thing is I love Solange. I love her sister. Her sister does some weird, interesting music. And I am all for that. I love people who take those risks like that.

[00:07:28] So I guess what I'm getting at is that there is no such thing-- there is no reality to the idea that art is not for everybody. Art is for everyone. Art should rather be for everyone. And unfortunately though, people start to drink that Kool-Aid and they start to believe that, "Oh, this is not meant for me." Like what I think about what happened to me.  And that professor, if I would have listened to that professor, I would never be doing Shakespeare. I would have given up and I would have closed the door and I would have limited the potential of my career, not even just my career, but my work as an artist. And what a foolish thing, you know what I mean? So, for me, it's so incredibly important to know that you just have to find the art that you like, because there are so much out there.

[00:08:15] I think about like, you know, for example, I struggle sometimes in art galleries, that's just, that's, I'm more of a -- I like art that moves, like art galleries, where it's more of a -- whether that's video work or experiential work. I love that kind of art. I have to admit I'm not as big into paintings on a wall. And does that mean that paintings are not amazing and valid pieces of art? Of course not! That just means that for some reason, to me, it doesn't speak as much. Now, granted, have I found expressionists work? Absolutely. That speaks to me. I love when I can just fall into a painting and not understand it necessarily in the--and what I mean by not understand it is--I might not be able to know exactly what the artist's intention was, but guess what? I am a, a consumer of art, so I have a right to digest it how I digest it, and to translate it in a way that applies to me.

[00:09:20] For example, I think about in grade school or even high school, the book choices that schools choose. I'm from, like I said, Southern Louisiana and my high school was primarily BIPOC. And we had a really high Asian population as well as black. And we were reading things that--I mean, you know, for example, the conversation on "The Great Gatsby." It's hard for a kid growing up in a small Southern Louisiana town who doesn't have much exposure, for example, to , to white individuals or to individuals outside of his world. So he might read that and not connect at all. He probably is not going to even finish reading it because it's going to be like, "I don't get this, this doesn't do anything for me."

[00:10:09] But, so that's why I think what it boils down to is from a young age, right, teachers, mentors, parents should expose their kids to the art that speaks to their communities, that speaks to their world because that will open the door then to them expanding their reach of what art they connect with. But if they're not even given that opportunity, then if, or rather if they're given work, art that doesn't relate to any of their world, that's, that's not going to affect them. I was a weirdo kid who got affected by everything. I was so interested in a lot. I remember reading "The Red Pony," and I liked "The Red Pony." I'm pretty sure I was the only kid who liked  "The Red Pony." But, that was just me, but that's not going to be like that for everybody.

[00:10:57] So I guess what I'm getting at is that if we're not, if we're not sharing art that a kid can relate to, then that kid is not going to gravitate to the art in the way that you would like them to. And so we have to start from a young age and some of that comes to also you know, support. So I think supporting friends, supporting family, and going take in people's art and... art, in my opinion, I think art also applies to if you're an entrepreneur and let's say for example, you have a, a, a shop when you sell bags, that's art. I think people forget how much they are surrounded by art. I will never forget reading that, that article, it was at least--it was in a newspaper here in Cincinnati, where they had at the bottom of essential workers was artists.

[00:11:44] And I remember being mind-blown by that because all I kept thinking was here, we are in a shutdown with a pandemic and you are at home doing what? You're watching TV shows and films. You're listening to music when you workout. You are playing with your kids, with toys are games that were created by artists. So the whole time, I'm just kind of like, how are we not essential when we're the only reason why you've not lost your mind right now? Right? I think about that all the time. How just, I think our culture in America is so disconnected with what art is. I don't think people really understand that art exists in--even for example, engineers, I think, are kind of artists like creating devices that work in a certain way and having to put all the pieces in, in the only way that'll make it work correctly. And over time, we think about the technology of phones getting better and better and better and technology getting better and better, but there is an art to that. And I wish that that kind of art understanding was taught. So people genuinely understand that you are surrounded every single day. That lamp that's sitting on your desk, that's art.

[00:13:02] So I think the more we can get our culture to truly embrace and see the art that's around them, that I think that whole conversation on the , on the art being for someone or not will stop. But I think until we get that understanding to people that they are surrounded by--these masks, I think of everybody choosing their own specific mask, buying it from friends who are designing these, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that is a designer! That is a costume designer or purely just somebody who loves to, so who is making a piece of art. Art for you to wear on your face." And that is amazing. That is so amazing to me.

[00:13:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. I love that perspective and you're absolutely right. We are literally surrounded by art. Even the furniture is designed by somebody. I mean, that's an art. Everything--almost everything-- yeah, is, is artfully created on some level. I mean,  I have a friend who is an engineer and he was having trouble seeing what he did as art. And I was like, are you kidding me? What do you design? It's designed! That's art. Like you have a unique, you know, you get to include the science and the math and all that with it too. But like it's, it's art. Yeah. It's so cool.

[00:14:24] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. I even think about like, for example, us as dancers. Oh my goodness. The understanding you have to have of anatomy and even physics to really, truly understand how you can make your body dance. And dance specifically--I mean, science and art, in my opinion are constantly best friends, always working together. And the stronger your understanding, in my opinion of science, and particularly in regards to anatomy, the stronger your ability to dance, when you can know and understand what your body is doing little, tiny little adjustments. Like one of my favorite things in dancing, even as a dancer or as a choreographer, I'm big on isolations. I love isolating body movements. I'm very into that. 'Cause I love that little tiny movement that you might do with your hip can tell a whole story. I love that stuff.

[00:15:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, me too. And. Yes. Oh, yes. That's all I can say about that.

[00:15:25] Darnell Benjamin: We are scientists, darn it. We are scientists.

[00:15:29] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. Or at least we have to have a solid understanding. Goodness. Yes, you're so right. That's one of my favorite things to teach my kiddos and adults in jazz classes, isolations and learning that your body does not have to move as a whole, like you can move individual parts. It's pretty cool.

[00:15:47] Darnell Benjamin: Oh yes. Oh yes. The body is a funny and strange thing. So strange.

[00:15:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. Well, this has been so much fun and you have so much insight to share. So thank you for all of these stories. And I'm just curious, is there anything in particular that really stands out to you as an encounter with art that's like a moment to remember? Something that really matters that stands out as like "I've got to file that away."

[00:16:16] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, my goodness. So many. Oh gosh.  I'll share a couple. One of them was in Houston. When I was in grad school, I went to see a show at the alley theater. I cannot remember what show it was offhand. But that company of actors--it's they're an ensemble. So it's a lot of times the same people in productions and you develop a relationship with them, you know, over time. But when watching this one show, I would never forget, there was this table behind this couch. And, you know, they would put things on it on occasion. Somebody would lean on it. In one moment somebody was leaning on it, right? And the table broke and the actor almost fell, but didn't quite, but every single actor on stage had this sort of moment of the gasp and nobody did anything for a little bit.

[00:17:08] And slowly you started to see people start to tremble, 'cause they were wanting to laugh so badly. And one by one, they broke, and they laughed for--no joke--probably like a solid two minutes. They could not stop. Like, and you know how that is. Anytime one of them would pull it together, and another one pull it together, and then somebody else would start laughing again. It was the most phenomenal thing to watch on stage when you have that, that sort of --the layer peeled away and you're just seeing these real people on stage. It was magical and hilarious. I will never forget that. That goes down in easily one of the top theatrical experiences of my life.

[00:17:52] And then I got to say another one too. This one is this one isn't as funny. This was pretty intense, but yeah. It was, I was still in undergrad at the time. And there's this festival called ACTF, which is American College Theater Festival is ACTF. Yes, that's right. Yes. And it's in Fayetteville, Arkansas, or it was that year. And the students go to compete for this Irene Ryan scholarship. So there's this production of "Pterodactyls" by Nicky Silver. And if you are into playwrights who write very sort of dark comedy-type plays, that's perfect. Well, this play, this guy is building this pterodactyl on the stage, like a life-size pterodactyl, he's climbing on a ladder and everything. It's really just amazing to watch. And yeah, throughout the play, there's this tension between him and his mother and he's trying to confront her and tell her. And he ultimately, she thinks he's about to come out as gay. And so she's avoiding it and dodging and dodging, and he just keeps saying, "But mom, I need to tell you something." And she's like, "Oh, well, you know, you can tell me later, there's this going on." And that's going on and on and on and on.

[00:19:00] And then out of nowhere, it's building up and building up and building up and then suddenly he just screams, "I have AIDS." And the lights go out. Oh my God. I did not see that coming it. Yeah. Right. I was probably 19 or 20 at the time and it just came absolute--it was so unexpected, that it's a moment I will never forget because it was done so beautifully, the orchestration of the lines and the buildup. And then what you expect is going to be one thing and they completely pulled the rug under you. And then complete blackout right after the line. And it was just like, "Are you serious?" Oh my God, I've never -- well that's a lie--I've cried in the theater quite a bit, but that was one of those cries I was not ready for. And on top of that, it was the lights coming up in the house and I'm mortified sitting there bawling my eyes. I will never forget that. I will never, never, never forget that.

[00:20:01] And it also, okay. Sorry, I got another one. You will appreciate this as a dancer too. I got to do this show, "bobrauschenberbergamerica" by Chuck Mee, and it's a phenomenal script. It's very kind of -- I didn't, I mean, I think in some ways you could call it an expressionist piece--but I played this character, Wilson, who is just hopelessly in love with this woman who comes like, sort of plays him like a yo-yo. She's back and she's gone and she's back and she's gone and there is this beautiful dance we got to do. And by the way, we got to do a Viennese waltz. And I don't know if you're a, a ballroom dancer, so you know what I'm talking about. Exactly. That is a tricky piece of movement to do and do smoothly. And while we're dancing, these ping pong balls are thrown all over the stage. By the end of the dance, there are seriously somewhere around 500 ping pong balls all over the stage, and we're navigating this dance through this. It was so, so magical and challenging, but the great thing, and you know what I'm talking about when I say this, she was an amazing partner. So the trust was so solid. We just floated. And it was just absolutely magical. Okay. I got one more, one more and I promise this is the last one.

[00:21:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Go for it.

[00:21:23] Darnell Benjamin: This was over a year ago. Wow.  2019, December. I was doing "Alice in Wonderland" and I was playing  the March Hare.  And since the director knew that I-- I, so I roller skate. I'm really big into roller skating. I love it. I refuse to get rid of my my roller skates. And she knew this about me because I'd done a show a few years back where I got to roller skate on stage while drunk with a bottle of Zima. And, but in this particular production I got to skate and I got to do tricks actually. And that was the most fun thing to do to bring in, you know, a hobby, a fun thing that I love to do in my personal life to bring that on stage. I mean, I don't know, just having those moments where you could bring a little bit of yourself, truly yourself into a stage experience. That was just fun. And I will never forget, there was this one day I got the best compliment ever . It meant the world to me because--so I had to skate on stage from stage left, which for anyone who's listening, if you were sitting in the audience, that's going to be to the right-- so I have to skate in from stage left and drop this miniature table, but I had to put it down in such a way to where the face--'cause there was a character's face on it--that was facing out toward the audience. It had to be facing out. And I just messed it up a couple of times in rehearsal.

[00:22:50] So, the break came and me being me, I went back and forth for probably like, no joke, 20 to 25 times getting it right. 'Cause I, it just had to be right. I wanted to nail it and I wanted to hit my turn and do a smooth exit. So one of the actors in the show was just watching that whole time, watching me go back and forth and back and forth. And she said, "Darnell, I love your commitment." And yeah. I don't know if she knows this--Sarah, if you're listening to this, just know that I went backstage and cried. I don't know why that really kind of affected me because, you know, I think about, and I'm sure you know this as a ballet dancer, the amount of discipline the work takes to make it effortless is a lot more than what the audience knows. You get to see the final product, but here we are like--especially if you're one of those obsessive people like me--you're, you're working so hard, not even just in rehearsal, but when you're home to try, and get it right. And to have someone acknowledge that, that was pretty huge for me.

[00:23:53]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Well, you know, what's so funny is--you'll actually appreciate this-- so a couple of years ago--I also, I really love roller skating. And a couple of years ago I asked one of my dancers-- who also choreographs quite extensively on the company-- and I asked her if she would like to set a piece that included some roller skating. And her being the sweet yes person she is, was like, "Sure, I'm up for this challenge." So she created this adorable--and I'm going to have to dig it up and maybe I can post a link to it at some point-- but this adorable, like fifties diner piece where it was myself and one of the other dancers were in roller skates. 'Cause we were the only two that were brave enough/foolish enough to undertake this. And , and we were the waitresses and then it was like, all these we're trying to do all. It was like cute little love story. And we're trying to do all this partnering and, oh my goodness. Do you realize how much weight is added when you do rollerskates? And then this, my poor partner, I think he was like, "What is happening?" 'Cause I, you know, there's all this weight at the bottom of your feet now. And so anyway, it was such a hoot in rehearsals and... I'm not gonna lie. One of the walls suffered a little bit when I totally fell, like biffed it, fell. And like my skate went right through the wall. So that's my roller skate dancing story.

[00:25:21] Darnell Benjamin: But isn't that the best, though? That's the, like, I don't know about you--my favorite moments on the stage are the ones where there is an , a mistake that happens when something goes wrong and you have to figure it out. I mean, I will never forget--I was doing this production of a show called "The Legend of Georgia McBride," and I'm playing this drag queen in the show and I happen to have on these heels that were probably good solid five inchers, but it also had a platform to it. So they were, they were, I was working. Right? And this one night I was feeling myself, you know, because we're doing the final number and it was a matinee, you know, those matinees, you're all energized. At the beginning of the day, I was getting my best life and I added, you know, how, like, whenever you watch those runway models and sometimes they kind of land on the outside of their foot and roll it flat when they're crossing the legs, and I somehow did that and I was feeling myself and I landed directly on the ground and I was so embarrassed because I got through the entire run of that show, not falling. But the, best part about it was that while I was down there, because my character is kind of like the messy type, I was like, "Well, okay, here we go. We're going to make this a bit." And so I turned it into this whole crawling routine and had fun. And I just think that's my favorite stuff I love when not--let me not say that, please. Okay. I don't love when things go wrong, but I appreciate when things happen that remind us. Oh, yes, yes. We got to stay present.

[00:26:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my word that, that is exactly it. Yes. I, I joke about it, but it's a true fact--and I'm sure you've experienced this too--when you know a piece of choreography in and out, and eventually you go on autopilot to some degree, but the problem is that is, that is effective only if you don't quote, unquote, wake up in the middle of your autopilot, because you had this experience where all of a sudden you're like, "Hmm, I'm in the middle of the stage. I don't even know what comes next." Like have you had that?

[00:27:33]Darnell Benjamin:  I have totally had that happen so many times and I've had it happen to the point where you're autopiloting--it's autopilot, autopilot, and then you realize that you're there and then you get in your head because you realize that you're there and you're watching somebody who happens to be looking at your footwork. And then suddenly you forget how to move your feet. Oh, trust me. There was this one number in a show, "All Shook Up," and I was in the ensemble in this show and we got this great choreographer who gave us this movement where it was basically it was kind of like, I guess, a soft shoe sorta sorta kinda. Yeah, it was kind of a soft shoe and for some, and the feet are like moving in many different directions. So if you mess up one thing, good luck. You're in trouble. And I messed up one thing and this woman watched my feet the entire time smiling and laughing and I'm like, "Oh my goodness. I'm so glad you're enjoying this because I am not." In, at the same show--this is another thing that happened with this show--so the shoes they got us for that number were these really, you know, and that's always the challenge when it comes down to shoes for dance shows, you know--spend that extra money and get the better pair, but they did not do this, right?

[00:28:43] And the sole of the shoe from the heel forward started coming apart, but it came apart at a fast rate. So I'm doing this very heavy footsie moment where we are crossing the feet and moving in all these different directions and the shoes, the sole starts flapping throughout the entire dance. It's so all this time, I'm just mortified because I can't quite land on my foot flat. And it gets to a point where finally I did this one kick little thing and the entire thing just flew off it. Yeah. I mean, live theater didn't get better than that. Live art is my favorite for all of those little mistakes. And yep, everybody saw it. There was no hiding it. So I kind of like laughed through the entire number because I was like, they're enjoying it. I'm going to enjoy it too. I love that.

[00:29:35] Lindsey Dinneen: I'm sure everybody has a shoe story to tell. I, oh my goodness. I had one time where we were doing a ballroom-inspired piece. It was , it was really fun choreography and it had like some elements of a Foxtrot mixed in with just a little bit of ballet. And anyway, it was, it was really charming piece. And I realized about five seconds--I don't even know--into the piece that my ballroom shoe wasn't buckled securely. And I spent that entire dance with this, like, you know, the gritting teeth smile where you're just, you're--it's not genuine. You're just, yeah. It's like, "Look at my face. Look at my face. Don't look at my feet. I'm going to distract from my flailing limbs." Yes, and so this--I'm gripping so tightly with my arch that I'm like, "This shoe is not coming off." 'Cause I cannot think of any sort of way to gracefully get out of this situation. If the shoe comes off, it's going to be bad, right? So the entire time I'm like gripping it with my arch muscles. And I'm like, this isgonna stay on. And the last few seconds there are these high kicks that I do. And I cannot tell you, I had the biggest cramp after that dance, because I was like, "This dang shoe is staying on my foot. I don't care what happens." Oh my word. And hopefully no one noticed, but I was a mess and, oh my goodness. And I don't think even my partner,--'cause I like whispered to him--I was like, "My shoe's coming off." And I'm pretty sure he didn't even hear me. And he was just smiling the whole time anyway. So...

[00:31:13] Darnell Benjamin: But you know, I mean, what a joy, I mean, these are--some of my favorite stories from theater are these sort of tragic moments where we, you know what I mean? Because I feel like so often when we perform, it's very, we, you know, we become these characters. We join that world. And what these mistakes do for me, they remind me that, oh, my God. It's not that serious. We can have fun. I get reminded of that whenever those things happen, that we have to remember that we get to do this. We get to do this. So, yeah, I love, I love when those mishaps happen. Well, the ones that we can fix.

[00:31:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, amen to that. And it is so fun because these stories are what makes it just charming and where you build this comradery around being an artist, being a dancer, being an actor, anything. And you know, like we've talked about, we both have skating stories, ironically. We both have shoes stories, ironically, and they're not the same, but we get it. It's so fun. I love that about art.

[00:32:15] Darnell Benjamin: Yes, even when the stage falls on you. I mean, I remember this one performance where we were doing a show, "Love's Labour's Lost." And the director did it in this way that it was sort of a character in the, in the present, like today's world, kind of opening this book. And I, and as the character starts to tell this story, or to dig into this story, the, the, the front part of the stage--sort of, I don't know, like a door, like one big, huge door opens up. For some reason--I could not believe this of all times for this to happen--on the first preview, the wall starts to fall. And, and it's so funny. Nobody can control themselves. But at the same time, you know, that's their mixture of horror, 'cause you don't want anybody to get hurt, of course. But there's also that mixture of, "Oh, my goodness. Is this happening in front of the audience? And am I the person who looks so stupid right now? Oh my goodness. What is happening?" It's, but I will never forget that. I won't forget watching this actor friend of mine, Kelly, stand there as this wall is falling and trying to figure out, "Do I save my life and get off the stage? Or do I stay in character and pretend like nothing?"

[00:33:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yes. Yes. I think everybody has experienced that who's done any kind of live theater production of, "Do I stay in character or do I die basically?" Yeah.

[00:33:49] Darnell Benjamin: And it's so funny to watch, watch the person think. You can see their brain running through, "What do I do? Do I leave the stage? Do I stay?" And I'm just like, "I want you to do whatever you want to do because right now it is entertaining. I want this moment, whatever this moment is, keep doing it."

[00:34:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Oh, I love that. And so a lot of what my company has done in the past is bring, try to bring some humor and some lightheartedness and a lot of joy into, into our productions. And one of the pieces we did was where we had a bunch of dancers ahead of time, record themselves saying things that they would say in their head during a performance, just to be funny. So like, part of it was something like, you know, commenting on how bright the lights were, or somebody  noticed abBobby pin on the floor that they have to avoid, or, you know, "Nailed it!" after a turn or just like all sorts of like hilarious things. And then we compiled them all into this piece. And, and so it became sort of like the introspection, like the audience getting to hear what goes through dancers' heads as they're actually performing and it was a hoot, yeah.

[00:35:02] Darnell Benjamin: Yes. I love that idea. Oh my goodness. I wish I could have seen that. That's right up my alley. I love when we look at the art that we do and that we can not take it so seriously. You know what I mean? That yes, absolutely art can, you know, because that's the one thing that I, I, you know, I was thinking about that even most of the first half of this, I know a lot of what I was talking about were these heavy, serious things. But even in the film, that's why I made sure there was a moment of joy because I'm like, despite all the bad, despite all the complications--I mean, look at the world of art right now, as far as performing arts, like how we're not able to do what we do. And, and how sad that is, but also what I'm noticing a lot of people are doing, they're reminiscing. They're telling stories, they're sharing things on social media about this funny thing that happened backstage or whatever. And I just think of as much as we bring joy to people who watch what we do, I think about the joy we get from each other when we're creating. And we're in that making it happen. And the fun, the fun that happens in a rehearsal process is everything for me. I love the joy in rehearsal. I love it. I show up to rehearsal and I'm that person who shows up excited to be there every single day, because it's, "Oh my goodness. We get to do this. We get to do this. What a joy, what a joy."

[00:36:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Amen. I love that. Well, I have some questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're up for that.

[00:36:34] Darnell Benjamin: Please!

[00:36:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:36:43] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, child. Wow. That's rich.  Hm. I guess the best way I would describe art--art is perspective. Art is when someone shares their perspective through a specific medium whether that be film, theater, dance , visual , music. I mean, the list goes on. It's perspective. I think art is a person's perspective through a medium. I know that sounds very simple, but I think that that's, that's how I would define what art is.

[00:37:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I think that's perfect. Yeah. I love that. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:37:28] Darnell Benjamin: Ooh. I think the number one rule for an artist is to be honest. I think that, to be honest, whatever that means, to be honest.

[00:37:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah, absolutely. And then I'll define my terms a little bit in my final question, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to an artist who puts some work out into the world and shares a little bit of context behind that, whether that show notes or titles or whether it's the inspiration behind it or something like that. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and doesn't provide context behind it, so he or she leaves it entirely up to the viewer or participant to come up with their own interpretation.

[00:38:20] Darnell Benjamin: You know, that's such a tough one because I'm a firm believer in, you know, we can't please, everybody. Everybody's going to not like our art, even if we do back it up with whether that's statistics, information, whatever. So I'm a believer in you do what you want to do. I don't know if I think it should be one way or another or the other, because it's, it depends on the intention of what the artist is trying to accomplish. I think about, for example, "13th and Republic" is non-linear. It's abstract and it, what I, what was important to me is just to make sure people understood that this is a conversation on mental health. Boom. But other than that, I want people to take it, how they take it. I want people to digest it however they want to digest it, because I can go and give a dissertation on what every single moment in the film meant. But how was that going to be helpful to them? I mean, I think it's only going to be helpful when somebody can take from something, what they get from it, as opposed to me trying to force something down their throat.

[00:39:28] And that's also not me saying that because an artist does decide, let's say for example, to be inclusive with their work, I don't think that means that they're shoving it down their throat. I think there's a, there is a difference between sharing information to get people , give people insight and give them understanding about what it is versus saying, this is what this is. You cannot see it any other way. Oh my God. That does not sound like art to me. If it's like, you're forcing your audience, but if you are purely just sharing to let them in on it. I think about like, for example, when I go to a, an interactive performance and I really am not given any kind of direction, and I'm just kind of like, "What do I do?" And I know to some degree, some people love that, but I like a little bit of direction when it's something like that. But as far as if I'm going to a, to see a dance piece, or if I'm going to see a theater, I want the work to speak for itself.

[00:40:24] And then I love having conversations. Like I love talk backs, Q&As. I am all about that because to me, that's the moment where we can start to open the dialogue about what this piece is, but I don't see Q&As as like--the questions I don't like as much is stuff where somebody is asking me to tell them what something means as opposed to me just sharing with them what I was feeling when I created this and what my inspiration was. I love sharing that, but I don't necessarily like to tell people this is exactly what this means from start to finish. Yeah. That's not as fun for me, but to answer your question overall, I think it should be dependent upon the work and the artist. So I'm, I'm open to either as long as I don't feel completely abandoned by my artists. You know what I mean?

[00:41:11] Yeah. Yes. I think that's a great perspective and I like that, that the artist can choose to include you so to speak or not, but it is based on what the artists intended and all that. So, yeah. That's great. Well, thank you so, so very much for being here today, this has been so much fun. I've loved hearing your stories and I'm so excited for you in this new pathway that you're kind of blazing with "13th and Republic" and all that. What's going to happen as a result of that, it's just so cool. And if there's a way that our audience can kind of connect with you and follow your journey, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:41:56] Ah, yes. Okay. Well, okay. We had this conversation before. I am so in the stone age, sometimes when it comes down to social media, but I do have a Facebook: Darnell Pierre Benjamin. You can find me there. Add me as a friend, be a friend, all that good stuff. And I, I, I tend to be pretty regular about keeping people up to date about things there. I'm currently in the process of revamping my website completely. So I'm not even going to share that one right now, but it will be updated in the next couple months. That's part of my New Year's plan. And I'm on Instagram as well. I do not use it as much, but I am making an intentional choice to share it because this is going to force me to use it more. And it is at Darnell.P.Benjamin. So that's, those are the two, I'd say Facebook and Instagram for now or where you can find me most. And again, the film is at onethreeandrepublic.com. So check out what's going on there as well. Especially whenever we move into this next phase of getting it out now. I do want to make it very clear. We're staying in the sort of a tri-state area of Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky.

[00:43:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. And you heard it here first folks. So we're going to hold him to his Instagram  resolution for this year.

[00:43:14]Darnell Benjamin: It's true. I cannot hide it. I have to own it. I have put it out there.

[00:43:20] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go, and we'll love following your journey, but thanks again so, so much. I've just loved everything and really appreciate your perspective and your heart for art, your heart for your students, your heart for change in the world. So thank you.

[00:43:36] Darnell Benjamin: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me and thanks for doing this. Thanks for like collecting artists and talking about art. I mean, what a joy, what a joy. I thank you for doing that. And thank you for inviting me to be a part of this. Really. It means a lot.

[00:43:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. Absolutely, of course. And thank you also to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:44:05] That's all for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share it with your friends. If you'd leave us a review and rating and subscribe to our podcast, you'll get notified when the newest episodes come out. Thank you for sharing art with us, and we hope your day has been Artfully Told .

[00:44:24] Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here, and I just want to share with you a little bit more about The SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique. The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you, and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

In today's episode, I welcome Darnell Benjamin! His interview was so good that we ended up spending twice the time talking than my guests and I normally do. We've broken up his interview into two segments. Enjoy his experience as a professional actor, dancer, and artist today and next week.

Get in touch with Darnell Benjamin: www.13thandrepublic.com | https://www.facebook.com/darnell.p.benjamin | www.instagram.com/darnell.p.benjamin

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Episode 040 - Darnell Benjamin

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hi, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. Hey, I just want to quickly let you know something before our episode begins and that is that this interview was awesome. I had so much fun talking with my guest today. And I know you are absolutely going to love Darnell as well. And hey, we had so many good things to talk about, and the interview lasted a lot longer than is typical for Artfully Told listeners. So I just wanted to give you a heads up to let you know that I've actually broken this into two parts. So you're going to get part one today and then part two next week. And I just want you to know that ahead of time before we dive in, and I cannot wait to share Darnell with you. And I know you're just going to absolutely love everything has to say as well. Thank you so much.

[00:01:26] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very excited to have as my guest today, Darnell Pierre Benjamin. He is a performing artist. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:43] Darnell Benjamin: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And I know that performing artist barely scratches the surface of all the different things that you do. So I would love if you would just share a little bit about maybe who you are and your background and kind of all the different things you're doing now.

[00:02:01] Darnell Benjamin: Sure. And you know, and I'll say all the things I try to do, I'll definitely say I'm originally from a Southern Louisiana small town by the name of St. Martinville. And I started dancing at around 14, mainly because I came from a family that was already very big into music and dancing. And the short version is that it was actually in therapy that I basically got coached by my therapist to explore some movement things. We were just playing with movement. And that's when I learned that for some reason, movement became a, a sort of balancing act for me, a centering place. And so I started out doing some modern dance and that got me into playing with some ballet.

[00:02:44] And fast forward to high school, start playing with the speech and debate team, and helping with the plays and then on a whim-- like no joke, it was very much at the last minute-- two weeks before starting college, I decided to change my major from what was going to be aiming towards criminal psychology to theater. And I changed it to theater. And while in the program, I was realizing that I was getting just as many dance credits as I was getting theater credits. So that's when I just realized, "Oh, I'm going to just be a performing arts major," because I was bouncing around between the two of those. And that's when I started getting in love with also Shakespeare and language and words and how they words dance in their own way as well. So, that's when I got into Shakespeare. I ended up going to grad school at University of Houston, got my MFA.

[00:03:39] And the program particularly looks at the world through the lens of classical theater, specifically Shakespeare we focused on a lot, and it's a movement-oriented program. So it was perfect for me. And now, I mean, I just kind of right now, I just juggle between acting, dancing, choreographing, directing and teaching. So you know, I, I got a bit of advice many, many years ago from a professor who told me to broaden the brand, whatever you want to do, do it. Who's stopping you? And that really stuck with me. And so now I just like to pretend my way through things.

[00:04:14]Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Yes. Well, and obviously you're not just pretending your way through things. You've been very successful, which is fantastic, but we all have to start somewhere. So there you go.

[00:04:26] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah, exactly, and that's what I mean by pretend is that, you know, it's--I remember the first time I started to choreograph. When I really started in the beginning, because as a dancer, you know, have your, you have your awareness of your body and your body and what your body can do, but you don't necessarily think about other people's bodies. You do when you're working with them, but how to create movement for other people's bodies. And that became a whole learning curve for me. And I caught on pretty quickly and I realized that, "Okay." Cause I think I have my strength in choreography is that I think I have a good eye, and I think I'm not afraid to lean into storytelling. I'm very inspired by like, for example, there's that dance group, Polobolus , who is like one of my top, one of my favorite dance companies. I love the type of work that they do because they don't just look at the technical aspect of dancing. They also look at the storytelling. They look at what does this one angle of the body mean versus another. So I'm very inspired by that kind of work.

[00:05:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. So you started as a dancer and it was in your teens, and so you had mentioned doing modern and ballet. And so did you continue to explore those two or have you also branched into some other dance styles as well?

[00:05:45] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, definitely. Yeah. A little bit of both. So I started out in those two and I always struggled with ballet and yeah, no, I was told early on, " Yeah, just don't have the feet." And so it's still that kind of got in my head for a long time, but then I noticed I had a a facility and comfort with modern dance and contemporary world. And that opened the door to me, even playing with some jazz. And that's really where I probably think my personal movement style sits the best. And that opened also to some tap. I'm pretty decent at tap. And then I started playing with some ballroom dance and I did well at that. And when I say--well, keep in mind, I am , I would say that I think I'm a better freestyle dancer than I am like, don't get me wrong--choreo that sits in a world of modern jazz, I am ready to go. Even some hip hop, I'm ready to go---but ballet is it, it's really hard for me. And, and I, I've been trying over the years to figure out what is the wall. And some of that, I think it's a mental block because I have in my head from that one person who told me, "Ya just don't have the feet."

[00:06:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh man!

[00:07:02] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. And so now it's the one that I'm afraid of the most to be perfectly honest is ballet. Terrified.

[00:07:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, well that is so funny you say that because ballet is my forte. I absolutely love it. I think it's absolutely wonderful, but I'm, I'm the opposite of somebody who's like, "Here's this really abstract, modern piece or, or even worse, here's this hip hop piece." I'll be like, "Mmm, I don't think you want me."

[00:07:28] Darnell Benjamin: And that's, you know, I totally like, I guess, you know, on the opposite end I can relate. Because I think what is so amazing, I love watching ballet mainly because I love watching something so technical that's done so freely. When it's done well, you know, when somebody really is just breathing in it. For me, I found that I was having a hard time with allowing myself to breathe. I get very tense with ballet work, and we all know that type of tension is not going to be useful for that type of work. So that was always my issue, but the freedom or what I'm perceiving rather as being freedom in, for example, modern dance , I think what, why I gravitate towards that is because I'm so story-oriented. So, and in contorting my body and moving it in , you know, anything from like, for example, a flexed foot is exciting to me because I'm like, "Oh, what does that mean?" And so I find myself digging into the story of modern dance. And it's not that by the way, please don't--I don't want to make this sound like I'm saying there aren't stories with ballet because there are absolutely some fantastic stories--it's just that I have a hard time allowing my brain to turn off when I'm doing ballet. I really do have a hard time with it.

[00:08:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes complete sense. I think it's easy in whatever genre that, that doesn't come as naturally or as easily or whatever to you, to have that in your head aspect of, "Oh my goodness. I'm just trying to focus on the technical aspects and remember my choreography." So I think that's like completely normal for any dancer, for sure. And for a lot of artists who are dabbling in, you know, trying to like expand a little bit. If you're out of your element, you don't feel as free just in general, I think.

[00:09:22] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. And also the other side of that is, you know, to be absolutely real, I'm 37 and we all know what the body--like ballet at 37, it's a very different thing, especially if you've been away from it for so long. But I keep saying one of these days, I am definitely going to get back into a class because I would love to just go back to the basics. I don't know about you. I love barre work. I love just being there in the classroom and just doing the work. That's what, I'm not thinking as much. It's when I'm performing it that I get in my head.

[00:09:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Yes. I absolutely love barre work as well. It's like, there's something so--just exciting, but also safe or, which is kind of a funny way to put it, but it's just this like, feeling of home. It's like, "Okay, we're going to start back in the barre. Every time we're going to start with our plies." It's like having this, this predictable really well-thought-through formula.

[00:10:22] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. When you're in that work session, it's really all about you. You just get to focus on your body. I mean, for example, I'm right now teaching at Northern Kentucky University, and I'm teaching a Movement for the Actor class and the students were working on some Tadashi Suzuki technique and it's a very focused technique. It is very--actually I would compare it to ballet in the sense of it's all about being very specific in getting to the shape, what is the shape, the specific shape--but where it's a little different is that one, and it may not be that different really , is that it's all about getting there faster, sooner, better. And it's about being able to train your body to know where that shape is without having to think about it. So that way you can just sit into it. And so working on that with my students right now, it's totally bringing me back to, I feel like I'm in a ballet class.

[00:11:16]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so I'm actually curious, you kind of touched on something. Do you feel that being a teacher and learning how to break things down for different students with different learning styles has helped you be a better dancer and mover?

[00:11:32] Darnell Benjamin: Oh my goodness. Do you know? I, I firmly believe that the best way to truly test your knowledge of your work and your knowledge of your body and your truth of your creative spirit is by teaching. Because when you have to navigate working with different bodies and different abilities and different levels of understanding, and to try to get them all on the same page, but you have to use different methods for each person there, it's impossible to not be able to reflect that on your own work. Because I know for me, those students teach me something different every single day, every day.

[00:12:10]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I absolutely agree. It's so funny because sometimes professional dancers or pre-professional aspiring dancers will ask me questions like, "What do you think, you know, is something that I should do in this endeavor? And I always say teach, because I think, when I started teaching it, it forced me, I suppose, to astronomically develop my own technique and to go back to basics and realize, "Well, I'm telling you this, I better do this too." You know, it's just so funny. And yeah, that's just a, such a big piece of advice I always give people is teach, learn to teach, and then you'll, you'll become a better dancer yourself or artist or whatever, you know? It's yeah. It's like when you have to break down all the fundamentals, you're like, "Oh yeah. Huh. I should probably do that too."

[00:13:01]Darnell Benjamin:  Absolutely. Oh my goodness. And you know what, I also try to be really honest with my students and tell them, "Hey." That whole, you know--I'm sure you've been told this, we've all been told this--when you start off in the arts young and especially I think about like, you know , that fresh out of high school going to college or going to a studio, whatever direction a person goes. And there is the, the emphasis goes a lot on discipline, you know, and I know, I think back to the time when I first taught a class, and specifically first taught a dance class, I found myself on the first day making mistakes I never make. And I remember beating myself up so much. And what I realized afterwards was that I started getting in my head and I started forgetting what I knew.

[00:13:49] And I started doubting myself and putting all of, and I was trying to be, I think I was trying to be the instructor, I think I thought I needed to be, as opposed to truly just trust your craft. And I learned a lot about myself that semester teaching and, and, and also being challenged to not only just teach, but consistency. You know what I mean? Being able to fully show up and be honest with the students and tell them, "Hey, well, there is this expectation that we are supposed to always be in the right space, quote unquote, you know what I mean, as artists, and when we go to do our performances, we still have to give those people the same show we gave the ones the night before and the night before and the night before, regardless of what baggage you're bringing into the room." But what I've tried with my students to really open the door to is having a conversation with, "where are you today?" Particularly in class, if you are in a space where you're not maybe -- let's say you didn't sleep well. Let's say you didn't drink enough water. Let's say--the list goes on. "What can you focus on you? Maybe you can't focus on the whole, but can you focus on one thing specifically?" Because you got to remember that, that classroom, whether you were the instructor or the student, it's your time and what are you doing with your time? If you're wasting it, that's on you. I mean, I, I put a lot of accountability on my students to challenge them, to accept the fact that they may not be in the best place on that given day, but you still owe yourself the time and effort to focus on something. You know what I mean?

[00:15:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. I love the way that you put that. And I think one thing that stood out to me was you mentioned basically the word honesty. And I thought about that too, where it's, I'm sure many teachers can relate to this too, if they're being honest with themselves. But it's so interesting that I had to learn as a teacher to be very, just honest with my students too. And like you said, some days are off days, and even as a teacher and I don't want to bring that into my classroom, but at the same time, there are days I fall out of every single pirouette that I try. Right? And I like to call those high gravity days, but the reality is, you know, some days things work and some don't, but I think that's bringing in the humanity of the arts and the, the reality of the arts is you do your best. You show up every single day, you do your best, but then you just keep trying. And the next day you come back and you do it again. And not every day is going to be the most, you know, ah, success day. But you keep showing up.

[00:16:30] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like what it does, I found that teaching with that perspective has made my students better by the end of the semester, because they are being accountable for themselves.  Because like, for example, in this, you know, environment where we're teaching virtually, I know that some of my students are not committing a hundred percent to what we're working on. I know they're not truly going there, but it's not all of them. And it's not all the time, the same people. So what I told them is that it's on you, you know. You know when you're there, and you know when you're not. Like, for example, I'm teaching an auditions class, a movement class, and a , a sort of musical theater intensive for high school students. So in those three different worlds, those are three different types of people, you know, very much so, but I told them in all three situations, this is an audition class. This is a movement class, and this is a musical theater intensive. You chose to take this class. So there's something you want to work on.

[00:17:35] And all three of those have to do with being prepared at the end of the day. So if you're not going to do the work, I mean, who can you blame? And so what I've noticed is that pushing my students to really take responsibility has made them actually be better at self-evaluations, be better at final products because they know where they sort of, I guess, set back. And it's showing up in their performances and they're able to comment on it in reflection papers. And for me, there's no greater joy than when I can read something a student wrote or even in , you know, verbal format, hearing them be honest about their craft because we all know like, I mean, the business is hard enough. The last thing you want to do is go pointing fingers elsewhere. Right?

[00:18:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think that's really important. It's a great life skill to help them develop to, of take responsibility for yourself. You're in charge of your life. That's very cool.

[00:18:37] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah, and it's fun. It's fun. And there are good days and there are bad days. Cause sometimes these--you know, right now with a pandemic going o,n mental health conversations are happening a lot more. And my students are being very forthright with where they are as individual. Particularly  last semester, I mean, I had a lot of students reach out about some things that are going on and, and I'm like, how much can we, as you know ultimately mentors , give them enough tool sets to be able to truly not only be honest about their work, but also be able to keep track of it, to log it and be aware of if there's something consistent. Are you consistently having an issue with something? Are you consistently not showing up to class, whatever it is, whatever that consistent thing is, if it's not on the positive and what are you doing to change that, you know? And that's, that's where I get excited. Whenever I can see my students grow not only as performers, right? But also as a young adults, you know, that's, that's--what a joy.

[00:19:40]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I've been reflecting on teaching methods and philosophy a lot lately. And I think that there's nothing greater than that. It's, it's so cool to witness those light bulb moments and, and those.... Right? When something finally clicks and it's like, "Ah, yes, you get that!" It's so fun. So yeah. Yeah, it's great. And then the other thing I've been noticing too, is just how special it is when students don't realize how much more they have, and you're able to kind of show them that, and then it's like this, you just watch the transformation on their face, you know, like, "Oh, I, I can turn out that much or I can go that much higher on my releve," or whatever it is. And then they're realizing that. They have all of this and I, I just, that's just such a cool thing too.

[00:20:32] Darnell Benjamin: Yes. Yes. I have a friend right now in Seattle who is doing this research project, particularly on movement, actor movement techniques, but specifically from the perspective of risk, the concept of risk . Are you actually taking a risk with your work, whether that's in the classroom or in performance? Are you really throwing yourself into it and falling flat on your face so that you can learn something? But and you know, even relative to the Suzuki method, which is all about push, trusting that your body can go further than you think it can. And that's not, of course, in a way of abusing the body, not at all. It's more a matter of--like, even thinking about the turnout thing--most recently, I made a post on Facebook about how I was asking for advice because I've always had sort of really tight hips and really getting myself to truly let the legs actually turn out and not force it, but also not halfway go there. I got a lot of great tips and let me tell you, I realized something. It's not that I had such a hard time doing it. It was disciplined. I was not. Like going at it every day. I was really not truly committing to it and taking that risk to throw myself in far enough.

[00:21:52] And the results have been fantastic because I've been doing it every single day. I've set a time for stretching. I've set a time for breathing exercises and I've set a time for just really challenging and going challenging my body and going there because, you know, I mean, obviously I've been in his body and dancing and movement work in general for a while. So I know what my sort of quote unquote safe limitations are, but I've been really trying to push towards the riskier limitations. How far can I take it? How much can I do within the bounds of reason of course, but I'm, I'm noticing all kinds of great results. And it goes to show that sometimes what it boils down to is discipline, you know?

[00:22:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Amen to that.

[00:22:40] Darnell Benjamin: You're right. And especially as a ballet dancer, I am sure you know what I mean.

[00:22:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yes. It is definitely the whole idea of consistently showing up and yes, so. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well, so then, you know, you've also had an acting career kind of alongside, it sounds like. So you said you had done a lot of Shakespeare work. Is that something that you've gravitated towards more? Do you do all sorts of different theater or, or how did that whole come about?

[00:23:15] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, yeah. So in , in high school I was in, I was one of those nerdy kids in the AP English class, and we did not do any Shakespeare. And I remember being a little confused by that because I assumed we should have . Fast forward to in college, I had my first experience with Shakespeare and I loved it immediately. I'm a person who is very fascinated with language. I'm very fascinated with alliteration, linguistics in general, anything that is about the exploration of the sounds of words and how those sounds affect meaning. For example, like phonetics , all that stuff, I'm fascinated with that. So Shakespeare was like the motherland when I came across it and that kind of opened the door to me making the decision. That's partly why I went to grad school because I wanted more training in Shakespeare. I wanted to get better at it because I'll share a little story with you.

[00:24:10]I went to the University of Louisiana at Lafayette. Go Cajuns. And I'll tell you what--I'll share their story. And I don't say this for any, with any hate towards the university, but in the undergraduate program, specifically getting my BFA in performing arts, one of the professors there at the time, he , he taught all of this sort of, you know, the stage craft and lighting, the tech side. And he was also going to be the one directing "Taming of the Shrew." And I was so excited. It was going to be a summer production, which I was like, "Oh my goodness, this is fun." And they opened it up to the general public. So a bunch of people came in, auditioned for this, and we all watched each other audition. That was the worst part about it. Let me tell you, I could not be bothered with that. Watching people go one after another, getting antsy. But I'm watching people go in. I'm like, "Okay, all right. I'm not like the worst one here. We're going to be all right." And not even in a bad--I didn't mean that in a mean way.

[00:25:12] Even when I thought that it was just more of a, okay. I maybe could actually get a shot at this. And I went up there and did my thing, felt really good. And noticed the , the callback list went up a couple of days later, my name wasn't on it. And I kind of was like,"Eh, okay. That kind of sucks or whatever, but maybe I might still get cast because you know, there's always the chance just because you're not called back doesn't mean you didn't get it." So fast forward to the cast list is going up and I am looking for my name, looking for my name. All the way at the bottom, "Hey! I'm the Habit Asher." Well, when I saw that and I noticed there were people who, and again, you know, there's so many things that go into this, as taste, who knows. But there were so many people who-- like, I mean, some of them didn't even, were not off book at their audition. Some of them who just did, it's almost like they kind of got teleported into a theater. They had no idea what was going on.

[00:26:09] And so I was disappointed that I had gotten this role. So I talked to the stage manager who eventually told me that the instructor ultimately--and the one who was going, and by the way, this is one of my instructors and this was the person who was directing that show-- he said that, "Well, I just don't see black people in Shakespeare unless they're slaves." So that obviously, it was like, "Whoa." I went to talk to the Dean. And I was asked to go back down the ladder and go talk to the head of the department who was new at the time. So he's like, "Hey, you're going to have to go talk to the Dean. I kinda don't have my footing. I don't know any of these people. So, I'm giving you permission to climb up and go talk to the Dean." So I want to talk to the Dean and found out later that there were all of these cases piling up against this person. Everything from sexual harassment to racism to, I mean, it was across the board. And eventually this professor got fired. Yay.

[00:27:09] But, but what it ultimately did, it, it lit a fire under me. And I think I wanted to prove him wrong. That's how it started. It started with me having so much passion for it, the language and being told that, and being hit so hard by that. And so I made a decision that I was really gonna dig into this and like, start to understand it because I really started researching and thinking about it and I'm like, "Oh, wow. There really isn't a lot of black and brown representation in Shakespeare that I'm seeing." So, it became a mission of mine because I never wanted another kid to feel like I felt. I mean, and so I ended up going to University of Houston in which--my goodness, I will say this for any listeners--if you are a physically-inclined actor who is strong with language and want to you to get stronger, that is a great program. The work is very physically inclined, but also very see, hear, smell, touch such detail inclined.

[00:28:05] But fast forward to I finished there and I graduated in 2009 with my MFA and then I bounced around a little bit, landed in Cincinnati. And I started working with the Cincinnati Shakespeare Company in the 2010-11 season. And I've been working there as a resident actor since then. I've also done some Shakespeare elsewhere , but like that's the company that has been my home base with doing Shakespeare, and so Shakespeare is one of the things I do. I love experimental work. I love, I mean, actually it was an experimental company that moved me to Cincinnati, the Know Theater of Cincinnati moved me there. And they're kind of, they call themselves the alternative playground and they do a lot of fun alternative work.

[00:28:48] So, and now, as far as my own personal sort of--what the stuff that I produce and I do on my own--I'm very much what I call, you know, just I'm an arts activist. I love looking at social issues and how we can use art to further the conversation, and deepen it. So a lot of my approach is from a a social issues perspective, and I love, love the movement of expressionism. So that inspires a lot of my work. I mean, come on. Can we please talk about Pina Bausche? Right. Seriously, that kind of work gets me so excited. I love , I love when people can--especially in dance--I love when we can see people turn on its head what we define as dance, because the question becomes, what is dance? And what is the difference between dance and movement?

[00:29:41] I love exploring that middle ground and taking pedestrian things and turning them into dance and exploring how they can be seen as dance. So I guess across the board, whether as an actor or a dancer, I'm very much about looking into, I didn't know, I guess I'm, research-driven. I love exploring and understanding and taking those little risks that, you know, may not work always, but more often than not. I love that it creates a conversation, you know?

[00:30:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Oh yeah, of course. That's one of the most wonderful things about art, is that it does and can create and spark conversation. And that's pretty special 'cause that's, that's when you really get into all the exciting aspects. And what did the artist intend or what did you gather from it? I mean, because both of those things are important and so, yeah, of course.

[00:30:37] Darnell Benjamin: Right? Absolutely. I mean, I even hate whenever I do my work, it's so important to me to make sure that I'm not telling my audience how to feel. I love to challenge the audience, whether that's through theater or dance.  I definitely, when it comes down to dance, I'm very inspired by also Mary Overlie and looking at viewpoints and exploring that to even create. So that way I don't, because, you know, we all have the, you know, we all have our tricks, the things that we're good at and that we can pull out at the drop of a dime. But I love figuring out, "Okay. All right, which of these viewpoints do I suck at?" Let's start playing with that. So that's something I like to try and do at, you know, and, and let's be real. Sometimes it's a pass and sometimes it's a fail.

[00:31:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, of course, but you never know until you try.

[00:31:30] Darnell Benjamin: Exactly and failure is fun. Failure is how we have an opportunity to learn of course, and, and, and try something different, you know? Yeah. So for me, it's like failure is just an opportunity to learn something.

[00:31:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, and that's a great perspective. So you had mentioned kind of briefly in passing you, you mentioned kind of the expressionist movement that's something that really compels you, but I wonder if you could just define that a little bit more and talk about what exactly you see that as being just since we might not all be familiar with that.

[00:32:05] Darnell Benjamin: Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. I know a lot of people are familiar with, you know, the scream painting and that is from like an expression as peace. It ultimately, and you know, the best way I could describe it, obviously it's in the way that I understand it and how I perceive expressionist movement being is digging into the feeling, what is the feeling that this art wants to portray. And instead of going from, you know, a linear direction with, here's a story with a beginning, middle, and an end, whether that's a play or for example, with a piece of art, you can just , you know, you can draw, for example, paint the Mona Lisa. But, or what you can do, you can paint what Mona Lisa feels like, what is, what is it that you want that piece of art to evoke? What is that feeling at the core? And that's for me, what expressionism is, it's about really tapping into not focusing on what we know as our realistic world, but instead exploring what is this world, this specific world in this piece of art and letting that tell the story.

[00:33:12] Like, for example , contemporary --oh, well, not that contemporary--but Edward Scissorhands, that's a, that's a perfect expressionist film because it created a world that was, yes, we recognize that these are human beings, but the distortion of the character of Edward, even thinking about the those bushes and how he would make these pieces of art with these bushes and that big castle that he lived in, all of that is very expressionism. You have, of course, the iconic film that most people know because It all stems from Germany. There's a lot of stuff out there that explores the exaggeration of things to tell the truth of what that story is.

[00:33:53] And as far as in my personal work , I actually got to do my first film. I directed and choreographed a film, which is kind of mind-blowing that that even happened. But , so I was, I was inspired by , so for instance, so I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio, and there were in 2001, there was the murder of a young black man, 19 years old by the name of Timothy. Timothy Thomas. And this was a kid who had a bunch of, you know, minor parking violations, things like that, tickets, stuff like that. And he was followed and he started running and he ran down this alley. Long story short, he , there are a lot of different reports of what possibly happened, but the gist of it is that he was trying to lift up his pants to climb over a fence. And he was shot because they thought he was going to be reaching into his pocket for a gun.

[00:34:44] And we all know we are in the midst of another round of this movement of the Black Lives Matter conversation. And, this has happened far too often. We know this happened back in 2001. And prior to that, there was  a man by the name of Roger Owens B. Jr, where this happened in Cincinatti. So for me, I started looking at the repetition of this conversation and how we keep circling back to it. And instead of, and what I found myself leaning towards is we keep talking about it in this sort of sense of understanding of, look, this or here's point A, here's point B. This is what happened. This is the result. And I think it's a lot richer than that. And a lot deeper than that.

[00:35:27] I started leaning into the direction of mental health and that's I think at the core of the problem. And so I started thinking about over time, what are the effects of this repeated trauma on the black community and how are the ways that it manifests itself? And that's when I started , you know, putting this piece together and thank goodness , the company, Walter Hoop, which is an amazing company, please check them out: walterhoop.com. They are an arts center organization that plays in all the different mediums. They play in with podcasts. They play with theater. They do live productions, dance recently, with this film that I did. And they, they want it to produce this and we collaborated. The music is insane and the music matched up immediately with this concept I wanted to play with, which was thinking about how can we have this conversation, but look at it through the lens of mental health.

[00:36:27] So every single shot for me had to be, it was important that the choreography, the writing, which was, which was done by Tyrone Williams and it's a sort of, it's ultimately poetry. I wanted it all to feel abstract. I wanted it to feel familiar, but not . I wanted it to feel claustrophobic. I wanted it to feel all these things that heightened our emotions. And you know, and also in the midst of all that conversation, I wanted there to be joy despite all of the hurt , the lack of understanding. So at the end of the film, there is a -- it, it sort of, kind of goes through an evolution. Now granted, I didn't go--for anybody who might see this film-- which is called "13 the Republic"--I, if you are familiar with expressionism, please know that I didn't go like hardcore, literal expressionism all in. No, I actually played with a mixture of finding, pulling the things from expressionism that worked for me, which was looking at the feeling, what do I want? The, what is this feeling and how can I create that through movement? How can I create that through text? That's kind of how I lean into it 'cause a lot of expressionism, you're not going to have traditional scenery.

[00:37:42]Automize scenery in the film is very much actual streets and actual grass and actual parks, but where I kind of went more towards an expressionist direction in terms of scenery, it was in two scenes where I played with, what is it? What would it look like if we're inside of the main character's head? What does that look like? So there's this, there's a couple of scenes where I leaned into that. But yeah, that's, that's overall how I would describe expressionism in how I utilize it. I hope that makes sense.

[00:38:15] Lindsey Dinneen: That was perfect. And first of all, oh my goodnes, congratulations. That is such a huge accomplishment to have gotten to work on that film. And holy cow, that is a huge congratulations and, and, and kudos to you for starting that conversation and addressing things that really need to be talked about. And I so admire what you said, your intentionality behind the way that those scenes were portrayed and everything is just so amazing. I love hearing the background behind it, and why you chose things the way you did. But also, you know, choosing to bring out an element of joy despite everything I think is just huge. So, oh, my gosh. I cannot personally wait to see this film. Where can we watch this film?

[00:39:11] Darnell Benjamin: Oh yes, you can go to 13thandrepublic.com. And so that's one, three, and it's spelled out and AND republic.com and that's where you can go check it out. And it's an interactive website. That's the really cool thing is that Walter Hoop wanted to make sure that, because originally this was going to be a live production, but we are in the midst of a pandemic. And that's why we did it as a film. And even the film-- just in case anybody's wondering--we did it in August and it was done absolutely with every bit of social distancing and safety in mind. And I found a way even to incorporate masks in the show, in the film. So I found a way to do that. So we went through a lot of lengths to make sure that because, you know, it will be very ironic if you have these this cast of five black actors and dancers performing and they get COVID. You know what I mean? That was not going to happen.

[00:40:07] So it was very important, it was very important to me to make sure that they were safe and not even just them, but also me. And as far as this film, you know, I thank you for even like, 'cause it's, it really is mind blowing to me because it's funny how life has a way of surprising you: here we are in the midst of a pandemic and we were working on, I mean, this film was being worked on prior to the pandemic. We were prepping for filming and then the pandemic hit and we had to push filming back but the rehearsals had to get pushed back for what was going to be a live production because you can't, in my opinion, you know, when you want to talk about social issues and you want to talk about ,  how do we manage this?

[00:40:49] And the only way we can manage this is to have the conversation. And part of that conversation is a communal experience. And we couldn't have that because of the pandemic. So I'm really excited to share this information that I applied for a grant through a local organization here called Arts Wave. And they had this grant for what they call it A Truth and Reconciliation Grant. And I got one of those. And so the goal is that we're going to, we connect it with an organization. I can't say who yet, because it's not public just yet, but we connected with an organization where we're going to take the film out of the urban downtown areas and bring it into the suburbs and the rural areas as part of a showcase of the film. And there's going to be a live element involved with it. And also they're can, it's going to be a Q&A where we get to actually interact with the people who are outside of the thick of , you know , city council and the courthouse and all of that world.

[00:41:45]So it's really, because for me, the reason why I do what I do is to truly, truly have the conversation. And the only way we can do that is if we step out of our comfort zones and take that risk. And part of the risk for me was getting away from the place that I know, and from the people that already know what I do and going out into these neighborhoods where hopefully we will get welcomed. And obviously there's the chance that we will not, but the way I'm looking at it is that if I don't do this, I'm not doing this film the service it deserves, which is to be seen by the people who are not having these conversations, to be seen by the people who may be disagree with this conversation.

[00:42:28] But how nice would it be if we can actually have a dialogue? So that's, that's kinda the next phase of it, which I'm really excited about, but yes, just as a reminder, that's one, three and republic.com and it's an interactive website. So check it out. You get to, there are some interviews that are really cool where we interviewed the cast members to get their perspective and also the , the people on the creative team. So across the board, it's, it's beyond me because in my experience of creating, this is the first time I have ever gotten to do something exactly the way I wanted to do it, and absolutely being truthful to not only my personal mission as an artist, but to who I am as a , as a black queer man. So for me, I've never been prouder of something. Because it's, it's truly every internal experience thought that I've had in a film. It's kind of terrifying because in some ways, it's a little so vulnerable, it feels a little kind of invasive to share it, but it needed to be shared.

[00:43:36] And I think that I, I can't wait until we start having the conversation of mental health in, in tandem with conversations on social issues, because they're not separate. It's all connected. And I, I can't wait till we see, to see more artists, more scholars, more across-the-board people finding ways to connect those dots and really dig into the heart of what's going on within each of these social issues.

[00:44:06]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, my word. Well, I, I'm just sitting here smiling. Congratulations. This is so cool everything that you're doing ,and just congratulations on this grant and this new opportunity to expand your reach and to step out of your comfort zone. And, oh my goodness. I commend you. I think it's hard to be that vulnerable and put yourself out there. Oh my word. But that, but telling who you are and your truth and your story, that is so compelling. And that's going to, I just know that's going to have an impact on people's lives. It's going to spark those conversations that will hopefully actually make some change happen. And just think that you are a huge part of that. That is so cool because you had the courage to be vulnerable. So, oh, my word so much respect, kudos to you.

[00:44:59] Darnell Benjamin: Thank you. That's very kind.

[00:45:00]Lindsey Dinneen: That's all for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share it with your friends. If you'd leave us a review and rating and subscribe to our podcast, you'll get notified when the newest episodes come out. Thank you for sharing art with us, and we hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:45:19]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about The SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique. That is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format, ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joyful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

In today's episode, I welcome Jaja Smith! Jaja is an actor, filmmaker, photographer, and influencer. He is the host of new podcast, "Just a Thought," and has starred in the web series, "Quarter Water Juices." He shares his thoughts about becoming an actor, continuing to take acting classes to sharpen his skills, starting a podcast, being the one behind the camera instead of in front of one, and so much more. With sound advice for beginners, and lots of great stories along the way, JaJa's influence is always intended to create positive change. (Fun fact: the cover image for this week's episode is Jaja's podcast cover art!)

Get in touch with Jaja Smith: https://www.facebook.com/jaja.k.smith | https://www.instagram.com/jaja.smith/ | https://anchor.fm/jaja-smith 

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Episode 39 - Jaja Smith

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:14] Roman: All I can put my part out into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Jaja Smith. He is an actor, filmmaker and influencer, and the host of a brand new podcast, as well as so many other artistic endeavors. I can just tell from our brief intro conversation. So I'm so excited to have you. Thank you so much for being here today.

[00:01:01] Jaja Smith: Oh, thank you for having me, Lindsey. It's such a pleasure. I am, I'm excited. I'm excited to debunk and just talk art and all things creatives.

[00:01:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Excellent. My favorite thing. Okay. So I would love if you would share just a little bit maybe about your background, kind of what got you involved in art, and then maybe a little bit about what you're up to these days.

[00:01:22] Jaja Smith: Sure. So for me, it's actually kind of funny. Yeah. I started as an athlete. I was an athlete and a musician. So music was my first intro to art. And then I just, over the course of time, you know, I did what we were supposed to do, which it was, you know, the college thing and, you know, try to get a job and stuff. And I just got to a point where I just, I dropped out and I was like, this isn't, this isn't enough. I don't feel fulfilled. And I just, as soon as I did that, a web series fell into my lap, "Quarter Water Juices." And we did two seasons. And then once that ended for me, I had the bug. I was like, how do I keep going? How do I continue acting? And so I found my acting class, Cincinnati Actor's Studio, and I have just been going now for five years strong. And, you know, it's been a, a beautiful journey, you know, finding agencies and learning learning the business behind all this and just continuing to develop myself. And I realized the more people I play , the more I learn about life, 'cause you're seeing life through the characters that you portray. So that's really cool.

[00:02:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so. Oh, my goodness. I have so many questions. There's one in my mind, but first of all, so I'm really kind of curious, because the first thing I thought about when you mentioned getting to play other characters has sort of helped you understand life even better. Do you have any sort of, did it kind of help develop additional empathy? 'Cause I know that's kind of-- you would think that maybe embodying other characters might, might help you realize more and more about just humanity? I'm just curious.

[00:03:05] Jaja Smith: A hundred percent, because you know, when you play these characters, you have to walk a mile in their shoes, you know, you really have to think about, okay, how did, how did their -- what's their point of view? You know, how do they handle conflict? You know, what happened to them for, to get them to this point? And, you know, when, when I play these characters, I find it interesting when people feel the need to method act. You know, if you're playing a psychopath, but there's no need for you to go out and be a psychopath before you play this role. But I understand, right, right? Everybody has a layer, they love somebody died and that's what set them off. So, you know, you, you picture what it would be like to lose that, that person for you. And then, your whole basis is heartbreak. So, when you start to peel the onion back, you know, and all the layers, you really start to see, like, people are people. You know, there are still your, your terrible people in the world, your Hitlers, your Castros, and all those things, but they're they're still people. They just made a series of decisions that took them in a very different direction.

[00:04:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever played a character that you absolutely hate,  like somebody that you just, you could not-- you obviously would do well, you know, portraying this character--but that you just could not align with who they were, so to speak.

[00:04:33] Jaja Smith: Role-wise, not yet. I, I'm sure that that role, that's coming, but I did an audition for a, a deputy--or I was an officer--I was an officer and he was just very pompous. And you, he couldn't be told anything by his superiors or anything like that. And for me, I was just like, "This guy's just a, just a jerk." Ooh, if I had to meet this person, I want to like fight this person or something. Like, I'm just like, why, why are people like this? But we'll see if I get the role. So then I'll be able to say yes. Yes, Lindsey. I did.

[00:05:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Fair enough. We'll check back in. Okay. Perfect. So, obviously your career as an actor, it sounds like, you know, you've gotten to do a few different roles now--have you done mostly things for film? Have you also done any theater work or is it sort of a combination of all of that?

[00:05:32] Jaja Smith: So thus far from me, I have done predominantly film. Now, I am not turned off to theater. Like, theater is one of those things that terrifies the heck out of me because you get one take. So it is like, if you miss a note or you forget a line, then you have to figure it out from there. And I try my best to do all of the things that scare me. So when an opportunity comes up for me to be in a play, I will jump at it. Terrified, but I will jump at it.

[00:06:05] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. I love that. Yes. Somebody--I will not remember who to attribute this to--but I remember somebody once talked about how you should do something every day that scares you. It doesn't have to be big, just a little something to help you grow every day. And I kind of hung on to that. I like that idea that, you know, you can, you can be afraid and do it anyway, right?

[00:06:31] Jaja Smith: Yeah.

[00:06:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. And so then you're taking classes regularly, I'm imagining, still, is that correct?

[00:06:39] Jaja Smith: Yes. Yes, I am.

[00:06:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. So it's, it's interesting to me because you're getting paid to do this, you are a professional, but so you still place a lot of importance on your own growth and learning opportunities. Do you feel that you will continue taking classes for the foreseeable future is that sort of the way that it works, I'm not as familiar with this world. So I'm really, really curious.

[00:07:01] Jaja Smith: The, the beauty of this is you will never be a master at this, you know, because there, the basics are always something that will always require you to be brushed up on, you know, keeping sharp. This is definitely one of those industries where you, you are only as good as your last film. So when you move on to your in--in the in-between time for your previous and your latter, you still have to develop yourself and continue to sharpen, sharpen that craft, that tool of yours. So, I will take classes the rest of my life indefinitely because there's always something to be learned.

[00:07:41]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that perspective. Yeah. I agree with you. I think artists in general are probably like that in a lot of ways. It's just, it's art, right? So it's subjective and there's no, there's no one thing to achieve that's like, "Oh, I made it." And then there's nothing else to do, right? You can always grow and improve. And so, yeah, kudos to you. That's really, really cool.

[00:08:06] Jaja Smith: I, I was hoping somebody might tell Orson Welles the same thing because with "Citizen Kane," he created the perfect film for that time. So for him, he was like, "I don't know what else to do. You know, I'm 24 years old and I made the perfect film. So what happens now?" And so he just didn't do a whole lot.

[00:08:24]Lindsey Dinneen:   And maybe if he had taken some more classes, he could have. I love it.

[00:08:28] Jaja Smith: We'll never know, you know, but we, we appreciate "Citizen Kane" and for everything that he made and created it for us. So I give it back to the, to the historian himself.

[00:08:39] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go well. Okay. So you also mentioned being a filmmaker. So what kinds of things have you been working on and what did that journey look like?

[00:08:49] Jaja Smith: I really enjoy the writing process. I truly, truly do, because for me, if I can create something that you, as the reader and my audience can read and see it playing out throughout, and it's just fluid, then I know that I'm doing my job. Personally as a writer, and you know, something else that I've learned throughout this process is I can't do it by myself. Like, there are so many pieces in so many unknowns and unknown unknowns that I'm just like, I, I can't keep it all together. So it's, it's definitely humbled me a lot to realize. And it's, it's a relief at the same time because I realized I don't have to do it all by myself. You know, I have all of these, these different, you know, actors and people in the industry who look, who just wants to create something great. And so, you know, to be able to put my script on the table and say, "Hey, what do you guys think about this?" And everybody jumps on board. It's encouraging. You know, I think it's really encouraging. And I think there's a lot of people here in Cincinnati and you know, all over the, all over the world who just want to get that start. And sometimes you don't know where to go. So, you know, for me just to be able to kind of jump into things, it's just really, really exciting.

[00:10:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any current projects in the works either for your filmmaking or for acting currently?

[00:10:19] Jaja Smith: No. I did just brush the dust off of a project that I had written a little while ago and I have a feeling it may be coming to fruition here soon.

[00:10:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, how exciting. Okay. Well, we'll have to keep in touch in and find out what that all looked like. I'm excited. Excellent. Okay. And so then I know all of this is only a small little snippet of all the different things that you do. You recently started a podcast, is my understanding. You want to share a little bit about that and that journey?

[00:10:52] Jaja Smith: Yes. So "Just a Thought" is one of the things that terrified me because, you know, I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to have a solid content or talk too much or not talk enough. But for me, "Just a Thought" has been--it's, it's a vehicle for people to take, you know, situations and, you know, we, we are one mind. So to be able to give a secondary perspective on, you know, different situations that we all go through and to be able to-- I'm geeky in the sense of, I love philosophy, you know, Seneca, Emerson , Socrates, the whole thing. And to be able to take the thoughts and the practices of these philosophers and make them applicable to today and the situations that, you know, we may come to come with, come into contact with. So, I just really want to spread positivity and help people wherever I can. And so I saw that the the podcast may be the best way to do it. And, you know, with each thought that I have, for every episode, I realized that I'm truly just talking to myself. If anything, it's just like a reaffirmation journal entry. And that ends up being this really nice thing that I can have and carry with me and, you know, help other people along the way.

[00:12:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. So is it something that it's, it is just your thoughts, or do you have guests? Is it kind of interview based or is it mostly just, you know, taking your, your own learning and ideas and kind of putting them into positive, you know, affirmations for, for yourself and others?

[00:12:31] Jaja Smith: It's funny you should ask that because I just posted last week my first episode, but it's a baby. Yeah, we are, we are the baby steps. So for me, my first episode was on my own, but I know that, you know, come time--because everybody has a story-- I want to open up the door for people to be able to share that story. It was, it was really interesting and I was so grateful for this. I posted my first episode and then I had someone stop me at the gym and was like, "Hey, I listened to this." And how relatable it was to something that they just went through. And I was like, "Okay. I, I have to have you talk about this and we have to pick this up apart." and I was like, "This is, this is amazing!" So I was like, this wouldn't have happened if I didn't do this. And so it was just a really, really special moment. And so I will definitely be having people on to be able to tell their story, because again, I am one conscious mind and I don't think we are supposed to work on a linear plane. So I would definitely love to, you know, bring some people on and have a couple episodes where I just talk about what, you know, it was weighing on my heart that day.

[00:13:44] Lindsey Dinneen: That's perfect. I love that. I think magic happens with collaboration and I think it's exciting that you can do some of both. And I think that's the perfect platform for that. And, oh, what a great story too about, you know, that immediate feedback from somebody who goes, "Hey, Thank you. I, I've been there too. And that was such a helpful perspective." I mean, gosh, talk about encouragement right out the gate. I love it. That's fantastic. Good. I'm so glad.

[00:14:12] Jaja Smith: My coffee that morning tasted so sweet.

[00:14:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love it. Yes. Excellent. Well, okay. So I know you kind of refer to yourself as an influencer and podcasting is obviously a fantastic way to do that, but you have other avenues for art as well if I'm not mistaken. Do you want to share about some of the other things that you're involved with as well?

[00:14:32] Jaja Smith: Yes. So I've recently, in the last couple of months, have dabbled in the art of photography. And I never realized because I've been in front of the camera so much, you know, as an actor and as a model that I'd never realized, you know, just how much it does for the, the eye of a photographer and the heart of the model. Because I, I think oftentimes like modeling gets lost in translation of, "Oh, you're just pick a pose and you and the photographer shoots it." But it's like, no, this is a story being told here. Like, I, you are, you are choosing an emotion. Like if I ever modeled for anyone I ask, "What is one emotion that you want us to sell? What is the story that we're telling here?" And now it just becomes this, this beautiful, like, play back and forth between the photographer and the model that the people who see the final product get to get to kind of live through. You know, people admire the photo.

[00:15:38] But, you know, I realized when I, you know, show my friends who are creatives, they're like, oh, you're, there's confidence here, but you're dealing with something in this photo and it's just, it's just this really cool thing. So to know that, you know, I was able to capture--'cause I'm not always playing myself when I'm playing a model--but to be able to say that they, they saw what, what my self and the photographer, or myself in the model were going for, that lets me know that I did my job. And then as a photographer to see the confidence boost in the model, you know, because I I've shot a lot of people who'd never really saw themselves as models before. And so to be able to shoot them and kind of bring that to life and just see this, this vigor in them, I'm just like, ah, this is a high, this is why it's harder for us to do this. So for me, that's probably been the most special part about that particular art.

[00:16:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And that's such a great perspective. I'm so glad that you shared that with us, 'cause I think, like you said, there are misconceptions about maybe modeling or, or even acting and things like that, where we just, those of us who aren't part of it don't necessarily understand everything that goes into it and what it takes. And it, like you said, it's not just standing there and making a pose, it's telling a story and it's, and it's work. I mean, you know, there's no-- Right. I mean, so, that's so interesting. I'm actually, it kind of begs a question of, what are some of the misconceptions that you have had to maybe help overcome or help educate when it comes to some of the art forms that you're involved with, maybe specifically modeling and acting, even filmmaking? I'm sure, you know, there are some misconceptions that you kind of are able to help people understand, "Oh, it's actually this."

[00:17:40] Jaja Smith: Oh, yes. So for acting, especially because that is my meat and potatoes, my bread and butter. So I love unpacking these things with acting. It requires a certain level of vulnerability. You can't just jump in front of a camera and then play yourself because you're lying to yourself. When I do a scene with my scene partner, it requires a certain level of trust not just in the person that you're doing the scene with, but with yourself. You have to let go of a lot of inhibitions and say, "Okay, I'm fully here. I'm fully present, not just in front of this class, but as this person that I have chosen to play. I have a job to do first and foremost."  I have a responsibility to this person that I'm playing to do them justice. I look at acting sometimes as I am the PR, I am the lawyer of the character that I am portraying. And so I have a due diligence to make sure that their story gets told and that they get what it is that they need. So, and I never want to cheat that because I think that that's something really special.

[00:18:53] Another misconception is that it's, it's easy. You know, I feel the longer I'm in this industry, there is such a business to this. You know, it's not just, I'm this pretty person, and I'm going to show up and they're going to pick me now. A lot of the job is, do you look the part? But that only gets you the job, but when you get there, you can easily lose the job because you didn't give the director what they wanted. So that's another reason why continuing to sharpen your tool, your acting ability, is so important because you have to keep the job just like any of them. The business aspect of this industry is, is something that I am progressively learning. I'm learning to ask a lot of questions almost to the annoying fault, but I just want to understand it so that way I can be the best person I can be on a set, for the director or with my partners, the rest of the cast and crew. I just want to make sure that I'm doing due diligence where I can.

[00:19:59] So I think, it's very easy for people to get caught up in just watching a movie and saying, "Oh, I can do that." I promise it's so much deeper than that. You know, 'cause I'm sure we've all thought it at one point or another. You know, I remember being a kid and watching "Space Jam," and you know, you've watched it a hundred times. So now you like start moving with the movie and you start quoting it. And you know, I, it's funny 'cause we've always, we've all, all been actors at a time in our life, from birth or a baby. You know, my, my coach, he made a point, he was like, "When you wanted to eat, you cried. You didn't have to cry, but you just cried. And then, because you knew you would get what you wanted." And so, throughout life, we do what we believe is necessary to get that thing. Or, you know what, we as actors call a bridge. It's like, "I want this. So to do this, I will do this to get my scene partner on my mom to give me that juice." You know what I mean? Like, when you break it down like that, you're like, "Oh, I guess I really have been doing this for longer than five years, but I've just been doing it, you know, with the intent of acting for five years." So those are just some of the things that off the top of my head, I would say are common misconceptions.

[00:21:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for, yeah, shedding some light into that. And I, I love that. I think that a lot of times, you know, art is perceived to be very glamorous. If you're an artist on any level, it's very glamorous and, you know, there are those moments where it feels, it feels lovely and very, very glamorous, but then there's all the hard work behind it. And I think it's important to talk about that too, because time is not equally spent. The glamor happens, what 5%?

[00:21:52] Jaja Smith: Right. And that's at a certain level. Like that's not a thing right now. It's a lot of hurry up and wait like, "Oh, we need you here at seven o'clock. Now you're going to sit here for six hours before we actually need you." It's not this beautiful, it's not this glamorous thing that we see on TV by any means. Like this is such false advertising.

[00:22:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yup, yup. Yup, exactly. But it's good. And, when you're willing to put in the work, there are those opportunities for such incredible reward, but, but it is hard work. So thank you for sharing that. So I'm curious, are there any particular moments that you've had that really stand out to you as sort of basically moments to remember, where you may be encountered art or you were a part of art and you just had this like encounter that was something to tuck away and think about later?

[00:22:43] Jaja Smith: So my first big city audition was in New York City. And you know, this was probably my first, first year. Yes, it was my first year in acting, like going to pursue this as an endeavor and it, it was such a special moment because I learned so much. I learned that my confidence will tell the casting director everything that they need to know, and without it, you know, if they, if I don't believe in me, then neither can they.  I would say there was a feature length film that I was a part of and I had a monologue, and it was just one of those things to where I... I've always learned, I've always been taught by my coach to never break, you know, let the director tell you to cut. And, you know, I'm doing this monologue and I know that I'm missing a line, that my face gave me away that I forgot, but I kept going. And then at the end, the person that I was delivering this monologue to that when the director said, cut said, "Hey, man, that was great." So it was just one of those beautiful moments to where it's, if you trust the character, the words don't matter so much. Like people will forget what you said and remember how you made them feel.

[00:24:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:24:07] Jaja Smith: So now that was a really special one. So those are, those are the two.

[00:24:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Those are great. Thank you. Oh my goodness. Yes. So I have a couple questions that I like to ask my guests if you're okay with that, all subjective.

[00:24:21] Jaja Smith: Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, perfect. So the first one is , how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:24:30] Jaja Smith: Art is expression. Art is a hundred percent expression. You know, whether you are a painter or you are a, a sketch artist or a actor, or whatever your canvas is, it's this release of energy. Some people don't know how to articulate themselves. So for them to be able to have this outlet, it's this beautiful thing. And then when it comes out, sometimes it's angry. Sometimes it's heartbroken. I remember very vividly my dad passed away on the night of an acting class, but I had to go because I didn't know how to handle my emotions outside of that. And you know, my, my acting class is my family, but I just needed that, that outlet, you know, it was just one of those things. It's like air almost. I think for a lot of other artists out there, I think art is their microphone to tell the world how they really feel, and in the way that best articulates it for them.

[00:25:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:25:41] Jaja Smith: To be honest, because we as people have dealt with enough bologna sandwich that, you know, it doesn't do anything for anyone, if you're just doing something for the sake of the adoration or the sake of a finished product. But if you're true and you're intentional and you're authentic, I mean, that is the product that people can truly get on board with. You know, I think that that is to not just to people, but also to the work itself, and then to the artists, because there have been a few times I may have flubbed or played it safer. And then, you know, I stepped back and the scene is over and, you know, I was just like, "What are you doing?" Like you, you know that you cheated yourself and you're like, "Why did I do that?" So the biggest thing to me is just be honest, be authentic with your work and everything that you do. You know, I don't see any need to talk about things that you don't understand. You know, like if, if you're a music artist, that's like, you know, tell your story. You know, you have a story. And it's beautiful. I mean, it's yours and it deserves to be told.

[00:26:46] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question--and I'll define my terms a little bit--is do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So inclusive referring to an artist who puts something out into the world and provides some context behind that? Whether it's show notes or a title or the inspiration behind it, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts his or her work out there, but doesn't provide context, and essentially leaves it completely up to the viewer to interpret it the way they will.

[00:27:21] Jaja Smith: That's such a good question because I, I can appreciate both. And Jordan Peele is, is such a believer of the exclusive, you know, he just kind of puts a film out and he says, "You know, what's it mean to you? Like, what do you see?" And when it's exclusive it creates such a beautiful dialogue for people because, if you don't know, then you're just sharing perspectives with everybody who's seen this piece of work. But if it's inclusive--you know, I'm definitely going to side with exclusive--but if it's inclusive and you can allow people to see the project through your eyes or the piece of art through your eyes and how you intended it... But I really think, art should be left up for interpretation because when you go to a movie, you're not looking to see how the director wants you to see it.  You're picking the film apart scene by scene and trying to understand, "Okay, I want to know what the main character was like before the movie started. And like, why are they like this?"  I think we live in a society where we do enough being told what to think and letting that be it. But for me, I think art is truly meant to be exclusive in the sense of, you know, think for yourself and tell me what you see. And nine times out of 10, they're going to tell you that you're right, because it is your thought and it is what my art says to you.

[00:28:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I liked that because that's a pretty unique perspective in the way that you communicated that of, of being able to think for yourself and interpret it the way that is meaningful to you. And I think there's a lot of value there. So that's, that's definitely cool. Thank you for sharing that. Well, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your stories and all the exciting things you have going on, and just, you're very inspiring. I'm so excited to continue to kind of watch your journey. And I would love if anyone who is listening to this episode would like to get in contact with you or follow your path, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:29:42] Jaja Smith: Yes. So I am on Instagram. My Instagram is Jaja.Smith. Very simple, very plain. My podcast is "Just a Thought." And I am also on Facebook as Jaja Smith. You know, I post a lot of when my projects are coming out, I will make sure to dish all of those things out there. And, you know, I'm, I'm pretty approachable. You know, if you reach out to me, you have a thought or something, then I'm very quick and very open to just sharing a dialogue because  life is short, you know, you never know who you're gonna meet in life.

[00:30:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Well, and so what would be your one biggest piece of advice for someone who would be interested in being an actor?

[00:30:32] Jaja Smith: Find a great class. And I mean, you just have to start. I think a lot of times, a lot of actors, especially here, locally that I know for sure, we stand idle whether it be fear, or we just don't think we'll be good at it. I think it's very important to just move, and it does the body good. Find a good class and absorb as much as you can, and understand that the world is your playground.  I can't tell you how many times that I've gone about my day and then just met somebody that I didn't know, and I just played a completely different person just to see, is this authentic? Does it work? And then, of course I leave the person and I say, "Hey, by the way...."-- and then I go back to being who I am, and I'm a local actor-- "did that, did I sell that to you?" And they're like, "Dude, that was amazing!" It's just, it's fun, not just for myself. And it keeps the, the craft of acting very, very light and fun and enjoyable. But it does the same thing for the, for the people around me. So just continually be a student of the game. That's, that's probably the biggest thing that I would say, and just find a class and do it, because you might be the next Robert Downey Jr. or Cate Blanchett or something, and you just don't give yourself that opportunity.

[00:32:00] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Great advice, thank you so much. Thank you so much again for being here and sharing your stories and all of your adventures. I just so appreciate it. And thank you also to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share it with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:32:27] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Jami Robben! Jami is a professional dancer with VidaDance Company as well as a student majoring in journalism and minoring in Spanish at the Univeristy of Missouri. She shares about her unique path from teaching herself dance movements from videos on YouTube to taking in-person dance classes to apprenticing with a professional company and beyond, as well as her latest endeavor, being the Director of National Dance Week Kansas City. (Fun fact: this episode's cover image is of Jami dancing in a performance with VidaDance!) 

Get in touch with Jami Robben: [email protected]

Learn more about National Dance Week Kansas City: https://www.facebook.com/NDWKC | https://www.instagram.com/nationaldanceweekkc/ 

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Episode 38 - Jami Robben

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very delighted to have as my guest today, the absolutely wonderful Jami Robben. She is a dancer, currently, a student at college, and also has done so many other different kinds of art forms. And I'm just so excited to have her as my guest today. Thank you, Jami, so much for being here.

[00:01:00] Jami Robben: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited!

[00:01:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay! Well, please do tell me a little bit about maybe your background, how you first started getting into maybe not just dance, but other art forms as well, and sort of where you are now, if that's okay.

[00:01:16] Jami Robben: Yeah, yeah, of course. So I actually started out as a swimmer. I grew up swimming. That was kind of my thing. I did it with my sister and so I never really was put in any kind of, like, dance or anything like that. And especially having five older sisters, you know, they, they all kind of did it and were interested in it. So when it came to me, my parents were kinda like, "Okay, we'll just let her figure it out." So it really wasn't until--I think it was the 2008 Olympics--when I saw gymnastics. And I was like, "Okay, like, I definitely want to do that. That looks so much fun." So I started taking gymnastics classes, but the only thing I would do is the floor. I hated the bars and the beam and the volt, and I just refused to do it. And I remember my gymnastics coach went up to my dad and was like, "You know, she--I don't know if this is the sport for her, she just does not want to do anything. And you know, maybe you should try putting her in dance too. Just seems like she really likes the floor."

[00:02:26]And then I went home and was watching TV and I saw "Dance Moms" and I was like, "Okay, maybe I should start dancing." But at that point, my parents were kinda like, "I feel like you've tried a lot of sports and just haven't really stuck with it." So maybe wait it out a little bit. So they didn't end up putting me in any classes. So I ended up going on YouTube and just YouTubed doing all sorts of different videos and tutorials with dance. And of course on "Dance Moms," they'd go and do competitions. And I was like, "I want to do that too." So I ended up enrolling myself in a competition with no studio or no training. And, I choreographed myself a dance, made myself a costume, cut myself some music, and went to the competition and ended up getting third place. And ever since then, I just kept dancing, and it wasn't until I met Lindsey, when I first started taking actual dance classes and training with that. And ever since I've just been dancing along.

[00:03:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. Yeah. Okay. So, so many questions are popping in my mind. First of all, kudos to you for being so brave to--I cannot imagine your level of bravery, honestly--to be like, "Okay, I've learned a few things off of YouTube. I kind of know sort of the way that things go, and I'm just going to dive in and do it." So, wow.

[00:04:06] Jami Robben: I think I didn't even know the weight that a competition had on a lot of people. And I just kind of walked in and was like, "Okay, this is cool." And then I'm seeing all these girls, you know, like training, like ridiculous amounts for these competitions. And I was like, "I did not realize they were this serious."

[00:04:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Probably a bit of a culture shock, but honestly, coming at it that way was probably a lot better because, I mean, I'm sure you felt a little bit of nervousness or nervous energy, but you wouldn't have had nearly the level that maybe some of these other girls and boys did when they were coming in from a really, really serious, like "we have to win" kind of mentality. So, there you go!

[00:04:50] Jami Robben: Well, I definitely remember being nervous, but it, it probably wasn't for the same reasons the other dancers were nervous. I think I was more nervous that I was like, "I don't even know." I just remember being so nervous, but not even about like forgetting my dance or anything. It was more so I was like, "I just paid all this money of my allowance to this competition. I hope I get a trophy."

[00:05:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Awww! Priorities, people. Let's be real.

[00:05:20] Jami Robben: I was like, "I don't care what I place, I just want a trophy to take home."

[00:05:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Awww, and you did! That's fantastic. I love it. I love it. Okay. And I'm so curious. So do you think having had the background--and granted you didn't continue with these, which is totally fine--but having the background in swimming and gymnastics, I mean, obviously those kinds of activities are really strength building. Do you think they ended up helping you in any way in your dance in the future?

[00:05:49] Jami Robben: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think swim really brought up my endurance to be able to perform, well, when I did gymnastics. And then of course, gymnastics, you learn so many acro tricks that you can use in dance in, especially in competition dance. I feel like acro and tricks is really big in the competition dance world. And so I feel like it definitely gave me an upper hand in the fact that I wasn't necessarily trained in dance, but I could do acro tricks. And so I guess it gave me a little bit more of a dancer kind of, you know, way to compete. But I, for sure think, if I didn't have those two backgrounds, I don't think I would have kept doing competitions, 'cause I don't think I would've gotten anywhere with them.

[00:06:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. The endurance for sure. And that's something that's hard to build up that kind of stamina if you aren't doing cardio related things. Even as a dancer, it can be difficult 'cause we do a lot of bursts of cardio and then a lot of more sort of resting and then bursts. And so it's, it's harder to build up that endurance over time. So that's cool. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So, and then, okay, so you had that first competition and then how many competitions did you do on your own before we started getting connected and, you know, you started taking classes?

[00:07:13] Jami Robben: Yeah, I think I ended up doing, I remember doing-- the first year I competed, I did one regional and one national. And then after that, it really was just a matter of I would compete and, you know, spend all my allowance money 'cause at that point I still didn't have a job. I was, I think I was 14. And so I would save up my money and compete, be broke, save up my money. So it really was just a matter of whenever I had enough money to compete again, I would compete. And so I think I was ending up doing maybe three regionals and one national for maybe three years before we got in contact. I think it was three years.

[00:07:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Yeah, that sounds about right, I think. Yeah. And you know, what's so amazing to me and, I have the great privilege of calling Jami my friend, and, but I've been her teacher as well, but I am so, so always so impressed with Jami because she is such a hard worker. And when she sets her mind to something, she's going to do all the hard work it takes to get there, not just skate by, which I've always really admired. But speaking of which we have to tell the story, this, this poor girl, I, I, I have a bad/good habit of always sort of pushing people to their next level. Very, very first thing poor Jami did with our company was, I totally threw her into this piece. So, so her and her mom and I met, and it was back in the fall and then we were having a performance coming up in the winter. And I, I met her mom and her mom told me all about Jami and, you know, what she was kind of interested in doing and showed me some videos. And, and I was really, really impressed with how much she had been able to do pick up on her own from YouTube. I mean, that's frankly, anyone listening, that's like a novelty story. Most of the time you cannot learn as well as Jami did off of videos just to--for context. But she's again such a hard worker that she really put time and effort into to learning. And so then we connected and, you know, hit it off. And then your first experience in any kind of like formal setting, poor thing, was to jump into rehearsal with three professional dancers. And you, and how did that feel? I mean, oh my gosh, you know, looking back I always thought, "I know you can do this because I could see your raw talent." I could see your drive and ambition, but like when I look back, I think, "Oh my gosh, I really put a lot of pressure on you."

[00:09:54] Jami Robben: Yeah, I remember. Well, first of all, I appreciate those kind words. So nice of you to say, but I just remember being, I was so excited, first of all, I could not believe I was going to be able to dance with professional dancers and be able to go into a studio because I'm pretty sure when we had rehearsals for the performance, that was my first time in an actual studio. And so I was so excited. I was seeing all the studios' like competition trophies on the wall. And I was like, "This is the coolest thing ever." And then we started rehearsal and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't know anything that they're talking about." and I was like, "Okay, I need to go home, and like Google all these terms." And, and, you know, and so I would go through with rehearsal, we would learn a chunk, I would go home, I would look up all of the terms, make sure I had all the technique right and everything. And then the day of the performance. Oh my gosh. I was so scared. I was really nervous. I think the thing I was the most nervous for it was for getting the dance just 'cause I, I had never done anything with other dancers.

[00:11:07] So, you know, if you forget your solo, it's, it's a solo. It doesn't matter what you do really. And especially because the competitions, I wasn't affiliated with any kind of studio. So it was the only thing I could mess up is like, you know, it, there was no pressure to it. It was very pressure-free. And then this performance, I was like, "Oh my gosh, if I forget the dance, oh, they're never going to ask me to dance with them again." And all this stuff, you know, I just like putting all this pressure on myself and it ended up being probably one of my favorite experiences. But looking back at it, I was telling you a little bit ago, how I resurfaced the video that my mom took of it. And I was just like, "I hope no one ever sees this video of me dancing. It's just, oh my gosh, you can see the fear on my face the whole time. And you know, you and the other dancers just dancing beautifully, like effortless, slowly and gracefully. And then I am trying my hardest not to forget this dance and you can tell, but, but the good thing was, you know, it was only uphill from there. I feel like after that, I was like, "Okay, you know what? Like Lindsey asked me to come back. So something went right with that. So it's okay."

[00:12:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. And then after that performance is when you started taking classes and was that a big change for you? I mean, did, did it feel just weird to kind of go from like, learning on your own to then having a much more like structured environment with other people and kind of just really honing on like, "Oh, this is basic technique. Like I have to get back to the basics. Was that, was that a weird transition for you?"

[00:12:59] Jami Robben: Yeah, I think the thing I was most likely kind of shocked by was how, like, detail-oriented, especially ballet was. I was just so used to these YouTube tutorials, and a lot of them that I was doing wasn't necessarily technique. And if it was, it was like how to do a pirouette. It wasn't a ballet class or anything like that. And so a lot of it was just like dance tutorials and dance combos. And so it was at first, I, I almost felt like it was, you know, more--I don't even know how to describe--not taking a step back in the sense where it was like easier, but more so like slower-paced than just learning a combo off of YouTube and calling it a day, but more so like learning the positions and everything technique-based. And it was kind of like putting a name to something. I kind of recognize from the things I was learning on YouTube, but I feel like the biggest change was, when you learn things on YouTube, obviously it's mirrored. And so, you know, the people I was learning off YouTube, they were all right turners, but I was turning on my left side because it was mirrored.

[00:14:16] And I had no idea that that was not kind of the normal, like most people were right turners. And so I remember coming into class and everyone's turning on the right, like really, really well. And I was like, "How, how did they turn so well on the right? Like that's not normal." And it was like, "Oh my gosh, you're a lefty?" I was like, "No, I turn on my right foot." They're like,"That's, that's a left, like you, you're a lefty." I was like, "I learned everything backwards." So I feel like after that, I was just, I, it was kind of having to relearn a lot of things that off of YouTube I learned incorrectly or backwards, honestly. And so it was weird seeing how things are supposed to be in, in learning like my placements were wrong and stuff like that. So a lot of it was even more so like corrective work than like learning from the beginning, kind of trying to correct some of the things I taught myself wrong, but it was so nice, especially to be able to be surrounded by other students kind of going on the same path and, you know, you feel inspired by them and you want to work harder just in a class setting. So it was really cool to be able to do that.

[00:15:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then, so after you started classes, you basically have then been a part of the company ever since. So after that , we invited her to be an apprentice with the company. And so Jami performed with us as an apprentice all throughout high school. And then at graduation, that was a really fun moment. Do you want to talk about that?

[00:15:51] Jami Robben: As an apprentice with the company, I thought that was like the peak of my life. Like I thought it was just the coolest thing ever, especially because everyone in VidaDance Company is just so kind and professional. I feel like a lot of them are rare to find in, especially the group that we have. It's just so special. And I just felt so lucky to be able to learn from such professional and amazing people. And so when I was an apprentice, I just, I never even really thought that, you know, there was a next step. I was just like, "Okay, this is the best." Like I'm so happy. And then at my graduation party , Lindsey came up and she made an announcement that I was being promoted to full company member. And I bawled my eyes out. I was, I was so taken off guard, but in such a good way. And I still have, she gave me a little stuffed animal flamingo for kind of the company mascot, and I still have it on my bed. And it's probably one of my best memories of my high school experience or honestly like my entire life up to this point. And yeah, after that, I just have been able to be full company member and still dance with the company, even throughout college, which has been such a blessing, especially just because I love dancing and I feel like in college, it's very much academic-based and so being able to dance and have that outlet while I am in school, it's just been so great. So I'm so thankful to still be able to be a member of the company.

[00:17:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, and we of course love having you. So it's always exciting. There's always these moments of excitement when people are like, "Okay, well, when is Jami coming back?" Because you know, we have performances throughout the year that, you know, unfortunately since she's at school, she doesn't always get to participate in, but, but the summer is always a really good time. And sometimes the winter too. And it's always like, "Count down the days, when is, when is Jami coming back to rehearsals?" is always fun for us too. We, we love having you be a part of the company, but...

[00:18:04] Jami Robben: Awww, I love that!

[00:18:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, so, okay. So now you are in school. So do you want to talk a little bit about, you know, maybe what you're pursuing and then kind of-- and I know everything is so hazy, of course, so, it's, you know, no worries about kind of the future--but are you, are there certain things that you're kind of working towards, or tell us maybe a little bit about your college experience?

[00:18:29] Jami Robben: Yeah, so I went into college thinking I was pursuing just a journalism degree. I wasn't exactly sure what in journalism, but I really enjoyed writing and everything with that. And then I wanted to continue my Spanish and so I decided to go in with majoring in journalism and minoring in Spanish, but I was still pretty confused because I knew that I loved dancing so much and I wanted to do something with it in the future, but I just didn't really know how to pursue that while kind of pursuing a degree in journalism. And so going to college, I just remember freshman year was so--I was just so confused. The whole year I was in the GEN EDs, which didn't help because those are classes that every freshman has to take. So none of them really have to do with your major. So I was in like math and English and science, and I just was not enjoying it at all.

[00:19:29] And I was really questioning if I was making the right decision by going to college, and if I should be doing something else. I just didn't feel like I was making the right decision, but it wasn't really until first semester, my sophomore year, when I finally applied for my emphasis area, which is in strategic communications and I have an emphasis in strategic communications on data journalism. So it's a whole, it's a whole train of things, but I, when I started doing classes in my emphasis area, I started really enjoying school and feeling like I was making a good choice and that it--just because I was majoring in data journalism, it didn't mean that I had to give up dance. And I, I feel like it took me so long to realize that there's no specific path, there's no steps. You don't have to graduate and then get a degree in your major and stick with it for the rest of your life. And I feel like once I realized that, I just took so much pressure off of myself. And so I was dancing with the competitive dance team at Mizzou. And so I put, started putting a lot more effort and time into that.

[00:20:44] I started getting involved with our homecoming. We have an annual Fling event, which all--a lot of--organizations on campus will compete dances that go towards points, 'cause homecoming at Mizzou is this whole thing that everyone tries to win. And so I choreographed a few dances for that. And with that, I started finding more of a balance between dance and school and realizing that I can do both. But I don't have to make a decision and stick with only that and pursue that in the future. And so that's where I'm at now. I have been dancing a lot more in school and it's just been a, really, a lot better of a balance. And the dance takes a lot of stress off of me with school, but I'm still really enjoying my major. And so for the future, I'm just kinda gonna wait it out and see what happens. But I feel like the people, I feel like students all the time, they put so much pressure on themselves to know exactly what they're doing in life. And so I feel like once I took that pressure off of me, I'm just kind of chilling and seeing what the next step is when I get there. So that's about where I'm at now.

[00:22:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. I think that there is this misconception that is very widely spread that you have to have it all figured out. And that is so not true. As any adult should tell you if they're being honest--which you're an adult now, too, I don't mean it that way--but you know, an older adult who's, you know, been through some stuff should tell you, you don't have to have it all figured out. It comes, it comes as it, as life unfolds. And that just makes it so much more fun and adventurous.

[00:22:34] Jami Robben: Exactly.

[00:22:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, and then you're more open to opportunities that come your way that you might not have had in your original plan, so to speak, but that might be perfect. So yeah. I love it. Awesome. Well, that is exciting. And so I'm curious, with the journalism aspect, you know, of course writing is an art form in and of itself. Now you're kind of combining the science with your data emphasis, but do you find that that is another creative outlet for you on some level to be able to be a writer and to be expressing yourself that way too?

[00:23:13] Jami Robben: Oh yeah. Especially when I'm in school, I, you know, I don't always have like a big studio accessible to me to where I can just go dance and kind of relieve my stress. And I live in the, you know, this tiny shoebox room when I'm at school. And so it's very hard to kind of move around in it. And so I feel like now more than ever, I've definitely been using writing as an outlet, and and even in school with my assignments, I really enjoy writing papers, which I know scares a lot of people. But for me, it's like, I hate tests. I hate projects, but it's like writing papers, I'm okay with. And so even with that, I've found a lot of enjoyment with it. And just being able to kind of just start writing and seeing where I'm at mentally and kind of, you know, mapping where I'm at, so I can look back at it and see kind of how much I've grown or improved with my mentality towards things. And so I've really been enjoying writing and journaling every night. I think it's such a good stress reliever for sure.

[00:24:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then pivoting back to dance. Now you've had some pretty unique opportunities--and you've, you've touched on it a little bit--but to choreograph quite a bit, which is usually a skill that's developed--not all the time, but often--with the dancer it's developed later, just because of circumstances or kind of what your, your goals are, but you are becoming quite a, an adept choreographer and you have so many layers to what you do and stuff, but it's interesting how have you kind of evolved over time. Because again, originally you were choreographing these solos for yourself that might miraculously morph onstage, shall we say. Jami's a little notorious for this, which I love, but, oh my gosh, when we give her a solo, you just don't know what you're going to see every night.

[00:25:17] Jami Robben: That is very true.

[00:25:19]Lindsey Dinneen: I love it, but how has that changed for you going from like, you know, you choreographing on yourself to then setting works that involve multiple people and trying to figure out layering when you're not necessarily a part of the piece. How, how did that all kind of work out for you?

[00:25:34] Jami Robben: Yeah, I mean, like you said, when I was choreographing dances for myself, I would kind of do like a skeleton outline and then just whatever happened on stage would happen. And I just, I didn't even know what was gonna--what I was going to do until I was doing it, honestly, and that kind of became my thing and it wasn't always a good thing. Like sometimes I would work so hard on choreographing a dance for myself and absolutely love what it became. And then as soon as I get on stage, I would just, it's like, I didn't do a single step that I tried to do. And so I was like, what was the point of me choreographing that? But when I-- I think the first dance I choreographed that was for other people was for National Dance Week for the company. And with that, I believe it was for, maybe it was Fringe. I'm not, I don't know. I don't even know. I feel like a lot of them blend together.

[00:26:35] Lindsey Dinneen: I know!

[00:26:36] Jami Robben: I think we did it for Fringe and National Dance Week, is what it was. It was ...

[00:26:40] Lindsey Dinneen: I think so too.

[00:26:41] Jami Robben: Yeah, it was "On My Own," and it was maybe four or five dancers. And I remember trying to choreograph it in my living room at home and just being so confused on how to do like formations and how to do even, you know, like choreography where all the dancers are moving together. And so I remember the first dance that I did, all of the choreography was very individual. There wasn't a lot of like work together or like partner work necessarily. And if it was, it was, it was very brief just because I had no idea how to do that and how to do it in my living room and, and try and give it to other people. And, so I remember that dance was hard. And then the second dance was another one for National Dance Week. And that one, I felt better about it. I felt like I was kind of getting down the process of choreographing it and making sure it had counts just because the first dance I did, I, I had never counted my choreography for my solos.

[00:27:54] And so I remember, you know, they were, the dancers were asking for counts, which obviously you need, so you can do it at the same time. That's kind of how that works. And I was like, "Counts? Like, why do you want counts? Like you don't need counts." And so the second dance, I was like, "Okay, like, that makes sense. They need counts so they can do it together. It's not a solo. This is a group dance." And so I kind of had a go back and relearn how to choreograph stuff and make it so it was cohesive and it was an actual step that I could explain. And that was technical to where they could also be doing it the same. And so I feel like it was definitely a process of going from just choreographing stuff for myself that if I messed up or did something completely different, like it didn't matter, to choreographing a group dance where all the dancers need to be doing the same thing. And it has to tell a story and they have to do it together. So it was definitely a roller coaster trying to figure out how to do all of that, but it was such a great learning experience. And I'm, I'm so happy. I was able to be able to do that.

[00:29:10]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, every single dancer goes through that because it is a transition learning how to put together patterns and some things also that you, you work out beautifully in your head, you do in real life and you realize very quickly, "Oh, that's not physically possible." Yeah. And then it's just a matter of tweaking and kind of being open to the fact that, you know, different bodies move in different ways. And so some things that might actually look beautiful on your own body because of your own abilities or flexibility or whatever, it might look a little different on someone else, and kind of being willing to adapt. So yeah, that's, that's a normal thing for choreographers to go through and it's definitely a bonus that you got to kind of learn it early and then, you know, now you've gotten to use it at school and all those things. That's great. Yeah, for sure.

[00:30:04] Jami Robben: Yeah. And I'm so grateful to have been able to do it with the VidaDancers, because I, I know for a fact, if I had gone somewhere else and was trying to learn with them, they probably would not have been as gracious as the VidaDancers were for me, trying to figure everything out on the spot. So I'm, I'm very grateful that it was with, with you guys.

[00:30:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I think, I think our, our dancers--and I'm so, so thankful for this group all the time--but I think our dancers are very good about kind of gently--and they do this with me too, they do it with everyone-- they, they sort of gently point out when things might not possible. Or they'll say, "You know , like I see what you're trying to accomplish here, but it looks like maybe if we did it this way, that could work better." And that's, that's our whole environment is very collaborative and how can we make the best art together, which is, is unique, but I also love it. And then it's, it doesn't feel so intimidating as a choreographer because I think also, again, kudos to you for your bravery, choreographing on your peers is hard enough, let alone when you're the apprentice and then you're choreographing on professionals. Like it's, it's already difficult and then you're adding another layer. So yeah. Kudos to you for again, stepping up to my, my challenge is where I'm like, "Hey, you want to choreograph?" And you're like, "Sure!" And, oh my gosh, you are so amazing. Anyway, so, and then also, I know you've had a lot of opportunities to teach both now through school, not at school, but through local studios. And then you've taught elsewhere too. Has that been kind of a learning curve too?

[00:31:45] Jami Robben: Yeah, I definitely the first time I kind of transitioned more into a teacher role at school was with one of the local studios. And I remember, I mean this specific studio, they're not, it just ended up not being for me. Just kind of the way they, they ran the studio, but when they first hired me, it was through a girl that I'm on the competitive dance team with. She works there and they were needing another teacher. And I just remember, I walked in my first day and she just was like, "Okay , you're going to go teach ballet. It's in the studio. Go ahead." And she didn't really know my, like, skill set or anything. And I told her, I was like, "I am not very technical at ballet. I, I need, I need a lot of improvement to be able to teach ballet level, to, to kids and teach them correctly. I just don't feel like I'm at that level yet." But she said it was fine and she let me teach it. And I just remember being so scared because I knew a lot of the things I was teaching these kids, I was like, "I don't even know if this is necessarily correct." And so it really limited a lot of what I was teaching them because I didn't want to teach them something and it ended up being wrong. And so I was very limited on what I could kind of do with them for class.

[00:33:20] And so after that experience, I was like, "You know, maybe teaching isn't for me. I just, I feel like I want to challenge dancers and help them grow. And I just don't know if I'm ready to do that yet." But then I ended up just trying one more time and I tried a different studio. And with this studio, I felt like they were a lot better at kind of listening to what you're comfortable with, and what your skillset is. So they allowed me instead of teaching my own classes, they let me assist classes with a teacher that's been there for 20 years and kind of shadow and be mentored by them so I can learn how to teach students. And that's what the dance studio did to me too, with, with you Lindsey, like being able to assist your classes helped so much because I had no idea even how to teach a class. And so I was so grateful for that to be able to assist you and kind of shadow your classes so that when I was able to sub at VidaDance, I knew exactly how the classes were supposed to go.

[00:34:26] And I felt so comfortable there and I knew what I was able to do and what the dancers were able to do. And so I think it just threw me through a loop when I went to school and tried a different studio and it was just so different. And after that I was like, 'Oh my gosh, I just, I don't know if this is for me." And so finding a studio at school that's similar in the way that yeah, VidaDance was where they allow me to be comfortable with what I'm doing, has been so great. And I'm, I'm really happy with the studio I'm at now. And I feel like at this rate, I'll be more comfortable teaching classes on my own in the future and having more of a technical background as I take more ballet classes and more technique classes that I can use in classes that I ended up teaching.

[00:35:18]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. And that's so cool that you have that opportunity because I think a lot of times, that's such a great way to learn. I mean, I did the same thing at my studio growing up. I would assist, especially with the little ones' classes, and learn all the tricks and tips and all those kinds of things that help make it, you know, a good experience for everyone. And yeah, so that's, that's a great way to learn. That's very cool. And now this was another thing. Oh my gosh. I just, I--all right, folks, I just have to just totally be frank--I am definitely a person who's like, I see potential in someone and I'm like, "Okay, you can do this thing. I'm going to ask you if you can do this thing," and then they take it and run. And I'm always so proud because it's amazing. And, but I, gosh, I have--maybe it's a bad habit of like pushing people to the next level. Anyway, the point is, I did the same thing to Jami last year, and I asked if she would be interested in taking over National Dance Week Kansas City. And that is an annual event that I founded, oh gosh, now what? Four or five years ago? And it's really fun. It's just, it's a day of all sorts of different dancers, choreographers, companies, studios, anybody who wants to dance, come together for this one event. And we just perform and it's just free. It's for the community. It's just a way to kind of give back and show each other what we do. And, and it's, it's a lot of fun. And you know, about like a little over a year ago, I said to Jami, "You know, I'm kind of at a point where I personally need to transition out of this, but I, you know, I, I don't want it to die. I trust you completely with this. Would you want to take it on?" And she miraculously said yes. So tell me about that experience and like, how is that going now? Because you've had quite an experience of last year, you know, with COVID having to pivot and then, oh gosh. Tell us the story.

[00:37:25] Jami Robben: Oh yes. Well, I remember going, going to National Dance Week the first couple of years that you were running it in, it was always something I look forward to. And especially once I left for college, it was something I was always so excited to come back for and be able to perform. And so when you asked me to kind of take on this position, I was so scared. And I remember I called my parents and I was like, "Do I say yes?" Like, "Should I say no?" They were like, "You know, if, if Lindsey is saying that she believes in you for this, that means something like, you should just give it a try." And I was like, "Okay, I guess I will." And so I was excited, but I was scared at the same time. I was nervous. I was feeling all the things, but luckily you were so great at kind of walking me through what exactly needed to happen. So there wasn't ever moments where I was confused on what I was doing or, or anything like that. You just, you did a really great job of kind of transitioning into it. And so I felt like I had a better grip on what was supposed to happen and what was the event was supposed to look like from my point of view.

[00:38:37] And then right as I'm starting to feel really good about it, of course COVID happens. And I was like, "Oh great." Like, "I have no idea what the heck I'm supposed to be doing for this now." And I knew I still wanted to have the event in some way. And of course, when I was thinking this, it was still the early stages of quarantine and the shutdown. And so of course, all of us are thinking by April, we'll be completely fine. And so I'm still, you know, trying my hardest to get everything in order. And I remember I started making the schedule for the lineup for all of the dancers and then right as I'm making it, I get a call from Leawood Stage Company, which is the sponsors for our venue that we have it at. And they were just kinda like, "Yeah, this is, it's not going to happen in April." And I was like, "Okay , I guess we'll move it to August." So we spent the whole summer working on stuff for it. And of course we get to August, things are still pretty rough. So I remember I was, I felt--I was pretty bummed, of course, that that wasn't happening. But at the same time, I felt super lucky to almost have like a trial run where it wasn't necessarily all that work for nothing.

[00:40:00] It was more so all of that work to be able to practice what to do for this year, when we'll actually be able to have an event. And so I'm really grateful in a weird way that everything happened the way it did, just because I, I don't know how things would have played out if it was, you know, we actually had the event last year. I'm sure I would have forgotten something or, you know, just, I felt like I was still in the early stages of just figuring out what the bare minimum of what I needed to do to make the event happen. And so luckily that I had that run now, I kind of know the basics of it. And so I feel like I've been more able to kind of add stuff in and see where we could take it in the future, which has been really, really fun.

[00:40:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so that event is coming up. So what's the date?

[00:40:57] Jami Robben: It is April 17th at the Ironwoods Amphitheater outside.

[00:41:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Yeah. And what's great about that venue is easy to social distance, easy to wear masks, easy to do all the things, you know, assuming that that's going to still be, you know, the case. So, and I, if I'm not mistaken, registration is still open.

[00:41:19] Jami Robben: Yes. Yes. I believe registration will be open until exactly one month before the event. So March 17th is kind of the tentative date to close registration.

[00:41:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. So if there's anyone local to the Kansas City area that's a dancer, choreographer, studio owner or whatever, just know that this is something that's free to participate in. And it's a fantastic way to share your gifts with the community. And definitely it's, it's a lot of fun. You get to see so many different kinds of dance. We also have a lot of ethnic groups that perform, and so you get to see like traditional Chinese dancing, you'll get to see usually some--oh, gosh, I'm, I am blinking, but there's always so much--some Irish steps sometimes. Yeah.

[00:42:06] Jami Robben: Yeah. There's a lot. There's a lot of it. I remember the first few years when I went, I was so impressed at all of the cultural groups that were attending, and it, it definitely opens up the world of dance and just makes you see different sides of it that you don't necessarily see every day.

[00:42:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. Yeah. I've, I've loved that about it, 'cause it's just been so much fun to see different cultures come together, and that's something that unites us and it's just so fun to see dance represented that way. So, yeah, definitely. And if you're not a dancer, but you're local to Kansas City, it's so much fun. You can come and go. There's no pressure, obviously it's free. So tons of fun and just keep your eyes out for all the details as they kind of come in the coming months. But so first of all, Jami, thank you so much for being here and for sharing all your stories. I do have a couple of questions to ask you that I always like to ask my guests, but before we get to that, I have one other question. Are there any moments, or is there any particular moment that kind of has stood out to you as something where you had an encounter with art and it was just a moment that you wanted to tuck away forever? It was, it was a moment that matters that you wanted to remember. Is there anything that stands out to you?

[00:43:30] Jami Robben: Yeah, actually I remember right when we first got in contact through my mom, I remember we met at the coffee shop and we kind of discussed where I could be mentored by you. And you said that you had a performance coming up that weekend that I could go and see VidaDance Company at, and it was at the Kansas City Day of Dance at the Kansas City Ballet. And I will forever remember that performance of you guys doing the "Call Me Maybe" number. And that was so amazing to me. I could not believe that such talented dancers, especially you, Lindsey, took interest in me, 'cause I just looked up to you guys so much. And so that is a performance I will forever remember for the rest of my life.

[00:44:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that makes me so happy! That was such a fun piece too. Oh my gosh. I love that piece. Yeah, that needs to be reprised. We'll have you in it next time.

[00:44:34] Jami Robben: Oh my gosh. that would be a full circle moment.

[00:44:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Right? Oh, I love it. Oh, well, okay. Wonderful. And then, okay, so I just have a couple of questions. So, first of all, how do you personally define art, or what is art to you?

[00:44:53] Jami Robben: I would say art is just anything that expresses someone and it doesn't take any sort of level of talent or anything like that. It just is something that you express yourself with and it makes you happy. And it's something you're able to share with others and make them happy with it too.

[00:45:13]Lindsey Dinneen: Beautiful. I love that. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:45:18] Jami Robben: I would say the most important role is probably sharing your gifts with others, just to again, make them happy. I think a lot of times are sometimes can be, you know, just kept to yourself if you're scared of showing other people. But the best thing you could do as an artist is share it and inspire others with it.

[00:45:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether that's a story or program notes or a title or something to sort of help the audience understand what the artist was experiencing when he or she created it. Versus exclusive meaning that the artist puts something out there and doesn't provide context so that it's completely up to the viewer to make of it what they will.

[00:46:14] Jami Robben: Yeah, I would say for me personally, I really enjoy it when artists kind of leave it up to the viewer. I think it just allows you to make it more personal and have it resonate with you more. And so that's what I really enjoy, but I also see the importance of the inclusivity and, you know, allowing them to kind of show where they were at when they created it and kind of let you in on their world. But for me personally, I really like it when they leave it up to your own interpretation.

[00:46:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, again, thank you a million times for being here today, Jami, and sharing all your stories.

[00:46:57] Jami Robben: Of course.

[00:46:59] Lindsey Dinneen: And then is there a way for us to get in contact with you? Whether that's just to, you know, kind of follow your artistic journey or whether that's to, you know, go see or get involved with National Dance Week? Are there ways for us to do that?

[00:47:13] Jami Robben: Yeah. If you want to just kind of keep up with me personally. My Instagram is just Jami Robben, J A M I R O B B E N. If you have any questions about National Dance Week or anything like that, you can email me at [email protected] with the same spelling as before. And then if you want to keep up with National Dance Week in general, I would go ahead and like the page on Facebook, just at National Dance Week Kansas City, and we post all the updates that you need to know about the event on there.

[00:47:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you so much. Well, and thank you everyone who's listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love it if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:48:00] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:48:10]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, I'm excited to share with you about Audible. As a podcast listener yourself, you already know how great it is to listen to something while you're driving or doing dishes or whatever it is. Audible has thousands of titles of audiobooks, as well as podcasts and other cool things. And they're offering a free audiobook to Artfully Told listeners when you sign up for a free trial membership. You'll have 30 days to decide if Audible is right for you, and you can cancel at any time without being charged and still keep your free audiobook. Sign up for your free trial and audiobook at www.audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Again, that's www.audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Thanks, Artfully Told listeners.

In today's episode, I welcome Gregg Gonzales! Gregg shares about his unique way of capturing people's stories through recorded audio interviews that then get transcriped and manuscript-ready to help people publish their books. With his background in wellness, hospitality, and customer service, he brings a wealth of knowledge and insight into the art of storytelling. 

Get in touch with Gregg Gonzales: www.joy-ful-living.com 

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Episode 37 - Gregg Gonzales

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am so excited to welcome as my guest today, Gregg Gonzales. He is the founder of Joyful Living as well as The SpeakEasy Method, and he brings with him a wealth of knowledge about wellness and wholeness and writing and editing and so many cool things. Gregg, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:01:04] Gregg Gonzales: It's a pleasure to be here, Lindsey. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about who you are and your background and kind of what led you to, to do what you're doing today.

[00:01:18] Gregg Gonzales: Oh my goodness. Well, I have been in the wellness industry now for over two decades. And prior to that, come from years and years within hotel and restaurant management. And I always like to say to people that if you have ever experienced living in that world of customer service, you really have to know how to connect with people in order to get things done. And that means from employees to other managers, to your customers. And so I think that connection for me has been at the center of all of the work that I've done, but it also has extended into this curiosity about people. And I think that comes from just my childhood of loving to ask people questions about who they are, why they do what they do, and really just get to the heart of who people are, has always been kind of a secret passion of mine.

[00:02:10] And so I feel like with my combined work within Joyful Living and now developing The SpeakEasy Method, I can really fulfill both of those, those intrinsic needs of mine to connect authentically with people, but also to be curious. And it's from both of those that I think it allows people to answer questions about themselves, that they get to learn something about who they are, why they do what they do, why their values and beliefs are the way they are, and really just having a deeper knowing of themselves that I think has so many healing benefits beyond the fact that we can also help tell your story and use it as a method to put you out into the world and share your story with those where you can make an impact. So it's kind of a long-winded explanation, but really at the center of my work, it's about connection. It's about being curious and it's about helping people share their story.

[00:03:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah. And so you have a very unique way that you help people write down either their life stories or blog posts or write an entire book. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that process and sort of how you take someone's incredible wealth of knowledge and resources and history, and then are able to help them to hone that and tell their story effectively?

[00:03:38] Gregg Gonzales: Sure. For a lot of people, they will say, "Oh, people have told me for years, I should write a book or you've got a story you need to share with the world." But for most people, I think they immediately assume nobody wants to hear my story. Nobody cares. I don't have much to tell. And what I will say to people is, number one, we all have a story that I think the world can benefit from, but also for a lot of people, it's that fear of writing. And I think that we become very judgmental about sitting down and making time to put our thoughts down. It's effort, you know, and we become very judgmental of the way that we write. And we can self-edit and it just doesn't sound like our true voice. You know what I mean? So with what I've created is really--I sit in conversation with my authors and I let them speak their story. I let them come forward with full vulnerability and full authenticity to tell me about life experiences.

[00:04:42] Tell me about the story that you want to impact and share with the world. It can even be, just be content you want to create for your business, if it's creating blogs or something for your website, anything that you need to write that really needs that authenticity and that passion and power in your voice. We're literally using your voice to write. And so how we do that is I meet with people via Zoom. So it's obviously very COVID compliant. And during the course of our recording sessions, I will ask you questions about your story. So really I'm a participant, I'm a guide, but I'm also, in a lot of ways, I'm pretending to be a reader who's interested in your story. I mean, I am interested in your story, but I take the role of a reader who wants to hear the details. I want to know why you made these decisions in your childhood that led you to coming to these "aha" moments as an adult. I want to know all of those things that I think are going to really make that impact that any author would want the reader to have by you sharing it in a, in a true, authentic voice by literally using your voice.

[00:05:52] So we record the sessions. We then take those recordings and transcribe it to text. And with the team of experts that I have that go through and clean up the transcripts, I take out all the ums, you know, you know. I mean, I talk, I say 'um" quite a bit. They'll take all those out to make it a nice clean transcript that's literally ready to be placed into a manuscript. So over the course of a single recording, which is about an hour, we can generate close to eight to 10,000 words in an hour. And I typically will ask people who've written and say, "How long would that take you to write?" And some people say, "Oh my god, weeks!" Some people say months. We can do that in an hour. And so for a book project, I have a six recording session package that's lined up, which generally creates somewhere between 50 to 75,000 words, which is a really strong manuscript for any book. We can do that in six hours.

[00:06:51] So we accelerate the writing process. So this way it saves you time. We capture the true essence of your story with your voice and we format it. So this way you can, it's ready, ready to use the moment that final recording is done for you to build your manuscript from. And now once that piece is finished, I have the team of people who can then take you through your journey to publish your book. So these are everybody from a writing coach and editor, cover design and formater for your book all the way to a publisher who can show you the steps to being self-published. Literally, we can take you from concept to published piece in six to eight months. So it's really a, a one-stop shop for people who want to write their first book, but do it in a very professional and effective way by telling a true, authentic story with your voice.

[00:07:47]Lindsey Dinneen: That is incredible. It is such, it is so cool that you are able to do that and just the amount of time, but I love the way that you put it in that it's about bringing out people's authentic voice because I think you're right. A lot of times we'll sit down to start a project and it wouldn't necessarily even just have to be writing, but you know, any project where we're trying to, to be vulnerable and tell who we are to the world. And it's so easy to just get stuck and kind of, you know, nervous or afraid, or like you said, well, who cares? Nobody would want to learn this about me or whatever. And I love that you bring that out, you know, and, and share people's hearts. That's really cool.

[00:08:31] Gregg Gonzales: It really is trying to--we're obviously creating something that is going to be useful for the author. You know, we want to create content that they can use for a published piece if that's what they're working towards. Honestly for me, I'm more interested in your story, but more importantly, it's that connection that happens because I think when you're speaking, especially if you're talking about a story that might be digging up some, some deep-seated issue, you know, some, some stories that are difficult to bring back to the surface, maybe it's from your childhood, maybe it's from a failed marriage. Maybe it's just something that is just touching certain pieces of you that it's difficult to bring it to the surface. As your collaborator, I'm creating that space for you to be able to share yourself in that space where you feel heard, respected, it feels safe. I've had people, I actually had someone recently say that this process helped-- it made it feel like we were untying knots in her mind, in her heart, which I thought was beautiful. Because it's through the questions and it's through the listening, and it's the presence that we bring to the recording sessions that really enable the author to speak fully and really capture what I like to think of is just the art of true conversation. It's that conversation that we're having, that we're not even aware that we're recording half the time. We're, we're the last thing we're thinking it is a book we're just spending time. Hearing stories and sharing and being open. And that to me is the goal that's being captured here. That if you were to sit down and write it yourself, some of the most talented writers, I, I speak to really struggle with getting that true voice in their writing. But when you're speaking, it, it takes on a different resonance in volume and density that I'm really proud of, that we're able to capture in our recordings.

[00:10:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's an incredible gift. Well, and I'm curious since you've had such a wonderfully diverse background and, and specifically in the wellness industry, And healing and so many different things. Do you think that that helps you establish a rapport and trust with the authors? Because it sounds like, you know, in order to be able to, to record this kind of content, you would have to have, like you said, you create this space for them. So do you think your background has helped with that?  How does that trust come about?

[00:11:08] Gregg Gonzales: Without a doubt. So my 20 years in wellness, I was a licensed massage therapist during that time. And I think that as anyone who regularly regularly gets a massage knows, you know, there needs to be trust and comfort and kind of that safe space that, that needs to happen in order for healing to truly take place. And so, as a therapist, I was very mindful about how I wanted my guests to feel. And it's that same attentive listening without speaking. It's that mindfulness of presence to be fully aware of what's going on with the person who's on my table to be energetically aligned. So this way I'm not coming in with any of my issues or my dramas, that it's really focused on you being the center of attention. It's identical to what I'm doing now. I actually feel like the exact same intention that I would go into a treatment room with my massage is the same intention that goes into my recording sessions, because I feel like the same level of energetic impact is happening. So with a question that I ask you, that's going to bring about this amazing story of your life, where you're talking about yourself in a really positive way, and maybe reflecting back and highlighting moments that just--I literally see people transform as they're talking about their story. It also has a sematic response to their body. So I do feel that even just the process of talking and sharing has a healing benefit to it physiologically. So I kind of like to think that even though my massage career ended three years ago, I'm still giving energetic massage work through these recording sessions. I know that gets a little woo-hoo, but I really feel that the healing aspect of my massage work is being replicated in the work with SpeakEasy.

[00:13:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. I love that. And probably a lot easier on your own body, not to have to be...

[00:13:10] Gregg Gonzales: Oh my god, yes. My wrists are quite happy now. Yeah. I mean, I had severe carpal tunnel, which forced me to retire and now, yeah, I, it--there's the only physical demanding part is hitting the on/ off switch on the recorder. So it's a feeling that not nearly as bad.

[00:13:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, right. Oh, that's fantastic. Oh man. So I'm curious, do you yourself have a writing background? Or how, how did you get interested in the storytelling, writing, editing component of what you do?

[00:13:42]Gregg Gonzales:  I get asked that a lot. No, I'm--in fact, my only piece of published work is as a result of the team of people who I've put together for my Create Your Bestseller program to take the, your recordings and take it to a published piece. So I wanted to see how this whole process works. And so as part of a guinea pig experiment, I contributed a chapter to an anthology book that we published at the end of last year. That is now my first--I can now say I'm officially an Amazon bestseller because this was on the bestseller list. So I do not have a writing background. I don't claim to be a writer. And I make that pretty clear with people who bring in content that they've already written. They'll say, "Oh, can you look over my manuscript and tell me what needs to be." Like, I just let people know, like, that's really not what I do. I have people that can do that. What I do is I help fill in the gaps.

[00:14:41] So if there are pieces of your story that maybe you've got, you know, say three or four pages written, you don't know where the story goes. "I don't know how it ends. I'm not sure where to..." That's where I will then develop questions to dig a little deeper. And work with you on the recording sessions to fill in the holes, fill in the gaps, to bring about more of that , that the blossoming story that sometimes we, we sit on and think, "Oh, this is it. This is all I got." And I, I work with people's--I know there's more, there's more here. So my background as a writer is very limited, but my background as someone who can help you tell me more of the story that's inside you. That is probably the piece that I bring to life here.

[00:15:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And that's incredibly important in what makes what you do so unique because you do have that ability to draw out what needs to be told.  And then you have your team behind you to support all of the other aspects. So win-win win.

[00:15:43] Gregg Gonzales: Exactly.

[00:15:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So now switching over a little bit to Joyful Living. That's the other kind of branch of, of what you do and what I know you're incredibly passionate about, and I know that an aspect, pre- and now going to be post-COVID, is hosting retreats. And so I'm curious when you host these wellness retreats, do you ever have art, some kind of art as sort of incorporated into them? I mean, how do you feel that art and wellness fit together?

[00:16:22] Gregg Gonzales: Well, it's funny you should say that. So my very first retreat that I hosted in Santa Fe, New Mexico in 2018 was centered around joy, that the theme of the retreat was just how to find, keep and sustain joy in a tumultuous world, that was kind of just the whole energy of it. And so over the course of this long weekend, there were conversations around questions that I had that I would engage my group with. And it would be kind of like an extended fireside chat was the way that we did that. But what was amazing is I also had a collaborator with me. She brought in some energy work and she did some chakra healing things that just tied in this whole idea of tapping into your inner joy, through energetic fields. So that was her focus. What was really cool though, was where we stayed was, it was at an Airbnb and it was hosted by these two guys, Ari and Gary. Ari was a chef. So he cooked for us throughout the weekend, which was just incredible. Gary is an artist. And so just by, just pure coincidence and just making the time happen, each of them played an integral role in the weekend.

[00:17:35] So Ari obviously cooked. And so he showed us his love and joy of cooking. Gary brought in his art. And so we spent a two hour segment on a Saturday at their large kitchen table. Gary had laid out paper, different canvases. He had paint, brushes, paints, crayons, markers, you name it. And the, just all these different artistic materials. And he just said, "I want you to create joy. What does joy mean to you?" And so we were literally like a bunch of adults pretending like we were kids during art class, getting our hands dirty, making just as, you know, creative and outlandish of artwork as we could. And then after we were done, we would explain, "Where did this come from? What are we trying to convey?" And for someone who has zero artistic ability, you know, it was, it was so refreshing to be able to express ourselves through art. Because my work is, is obviously through conversation and, and holding space, but this took it to a different level for myself of how do I convey joy in art? So that became something that I now want to bring with all of my future retreats, because to me it's just another way of expressing this energy. So, so it's just funny, you mentioned that because that happened by accident, but it was such a huge highlight of the weekend that I want to continue that.

[00:19:09]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Oh my goodness. It's, it's so much fun that you all were able to do that. And I know personally how beneficial that kind of exercise can be. And it just made me chuckle because I remember one time, I was taking an art therapy class, you know, as someone who could then use art for therapy. And one of the exercises was we were supposed to look at a bunch of magazines and then cut out things that made us happy that reminded us of happiness and joy, which, you know, my whole, whole thing is joy. So we're very aligned that way, Gregg, but yeah. And anyways, so, so we were supposed to do this thing. And then we were going to explain, and I didn't realize that we were then going to share this with the class and explain. And so here we all are busy working on our, on our little, you know collages. Oh my gosh. And I was the last person to go and, and explain, and everyone else had these heartfelt, like this brings me joy because it represents my family, and my family, you know, anyways, beautiful, beautiful things. And then we get to me. My entire collage is penguins because penguins bring me a lot of happiness. And I realized in the moment that I had missed the point of the exercise, because it was an entire collage of penguins and nothing else.

[00:20:36] Gregg Gonzales: Oh my gosh. That's awesome.

[00:20:39] Lindsey Dinneen: So that's my, my fail story from art therapy class. But, you know what, every time I looked at that, it brought me happiness. So I don't know!

[00:20:48] Gregg Gonzales: It worked! It totally worked.

[00:20:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. Oh goodness. Anyway, yeah. So, okay. So back to you, do you have, you know, in your own experience, in your own life growing up, are there any moments that kind of stand out to you as having witnessed art in some way and thinking, "Wow, that is a moment to remember." Or, "Oh my goodness, I want to be a part of that. Or I'm so glad I saw that or heard that." Or just things that stand out.

[00:21:20] Gregg Gonzales: So the first thing that pops into my mind is my brother, and he is an artist. He's based in Phoenix and he has been an artist for as long as I can remember. He is beyond talented and just, he has, he got that art gene that somehow skipped me in the family because I, I don't, I don't have any artistic ability. I was living in Los Angeles. This was in the mid to late nineties, managing a restaurant at the time. And he got his first big art gallery showing in New York. And it was a big deal, you know, so he and I have not always had the best relationship and it was something that I wanted to show him how much I supported his work. And so I made it, I got on a red eye or just got on a late flight after work and surprised him. And the gallery knew that I was coming. My folks knew that I was coming, but he didn't. And so I arrive down in Soho in New York. And it's just, you know, as you would typically imagine like a New York gallery to be just this huge, beautiful space totally lit up, people are all dressed to the nines. There's champagne in order was being passed around.

[00:22:41] And I'm just like, "Oh my God, like, this is truly a big deal." And up to that point, I hadn't really seen much of the work he had done. So I was seeing it really for the first time. And so I walk in. My folks see me, they're like, "Oh my God, he's going to be so happy. You're here!" Whatever. And like, '"Where is he?" And like, "Where?" "Do you see those group of people over there kind of huddled around all these big pieces?" And I recognize that they were his, 'cause he's got a very distinctive style, and they're like, "He's kind of meshed in with that, talking with them." And so I kinda meander my way over and start kind of just poking around to see if I see him. And it's just a swarm of people huddled around these two huge floor-to-ceiling art pieces. And he's standing there with his champagne glass and he's talking about his work and all these people, and I'm just, I'm sitting there and I'm looking at his pieces just with my mouth, just gaped open, like, "Oh my God, these are unbelievable."

[00:23:37] But more importantly, like I was just staring at him just like, he freaking did it. Like, this is incredible. And I just, I just sat there with my head, just, just shaking. Like, I don't believe this. Well, then he caught-- we made eye contact. He saw me, he stopped talking and he's like, "Oh my God, excuse me, everybody. But my brother is here." And like, everyone was like, "Oh!" and clapped. And he came and gave me a big hug and I just, I'd never felt so proud of him and the work he did. And just my appreciation for art in general took on a whole new level after that, because now there was a personal connection to it. You know, now I knew why he did what he did, the devotion and the time and the dedication that it took, but then to see the impact that it was having on people.  That's just a memory that really sticks out to me in terms of how my perception of art really changed. I mean, I've always been into art. I've always loved learning about artists, but to have it be in the family, with someone who was kind of at that level now, just, it really hit home in a different way.

[00:24:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's a beautiful memory. Thank you for sharing that. I was just smiling the whole time thinking, "Oh my gosh. What a fantastic surprise, and well that's, that is amazing." Wow.  So I do have a few questions that I like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:25:02] Gregg Gonzales: I'm totally fine with that. Sure.

[00:25:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. Okay. So the first is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:11]Gregg Gonzales: I think art to me is about self-expression in its truest form. That's why I think about the work that I do with my authors. They, they don't think about, about it as writing, but if you're speaking it, you're expressing yourself. You know it, to me, it's no different than if you were to sit at a computer and write, or pull out a pen and write in a journal just as the same way, you know, traditional authors do it. It's no different than someone sculpting a piece of raw clay into something beautiful, or a painter taking a blank canvas and creating something from their own self expression. So to me, art is the ultimate form of self-expression.

[00:25:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:01]Gregg Gonzales: I think, I think it's to delight. Truly, I think it's to delight those, whether that delight can be in the form of, "I appreciate it. I think it's garbage. I think it's the greatest thing ever." I think it's to gain, to get a response from the people who are experiencing the art, whether it be music, whether it be a painting, whether it be a book. You want a response. You want, you want them to feel something. So to me as an artist, I want my people to, or I want the people who are experiencing my work to feel something. I know that sounds very general, but to me, it's about feeling.

[00:26:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Completely agree. And then do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll define my terms a little bit.  So inclusive referring to an artist to create something and puts it out into the world and provides a little bit of context, whether that's a title or a program notes or inspiration or something, just to give a little glimpse into what the artist was thinking when he or she created it. Versus exlusive referring to an artist who creates something and puts it out into the world, but doesn't provide context behind it. So it's just up to the receiver or viewer to interpret it the way that they will.

[00:27:29]Gregg Gonzales: I think that's the beautiful thing about art is that it doesn't have to be either. I think that if you want to provide some context around what it is that you're doing to make it more digestible or easy, easier to explain for people , that's fine. I also think that there's-- I love looking at something and not knowing what they were trying to do here. They were trying to do something. You know, the thing that came to my mind is like the Mona Lisa, and there's been so many books and studies and I'm sure art classes that have been written around, you know,"What was he trying to convey? What was she thinking? What is she smiling about?" You know, I think art that raises as many questions as it answers is a great thing. So I would--I'm going to probably take the easy route and say, I think that it could be both because I think that again, depending upon how you want the audience to perceive your work, that being inclusive, being exclusive, I think has benefits in both regards.

[00:28:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yes, awesome. Well, first of all, Gregg, thank you so much again for joining us today and for sharing all your stories and about your work and all of that. I really, really appreciate that. And, yeah. And I do want to give our listeners an opportunity to connect with you, whether that be, you know, just to learn a little bit more about the different things that you have, Joyful Living and SpeakEasy, or if you're okay with it, connecting just with you because you're awesome. And so is there a way for us to do that?

[00:29:20] Gregg Gonzales: I'd probably say right now, the easiest way is just through my website to go directly through the Contact Me page. And the website is, uh, joy-ful-living.com, but there are hyphens throughout, so I'll spell it out. So it's www.joy hypthen ful, with one l, hyphen living.com. That's probably the easiest way to learn about SpeakEasy, to contact me, to kind of get an overview as to all of the different projects and missions of Joyful Living that are soon to come. But really SpeakEasy is, is my my baby that I'm developing right now and putting a lot of focus and energy. And so, so much is there for people to learn about it. They can set up a discovery call with me through there. So that's probably the best way.

[00:30:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you so much. All right, well, thank you also to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you are feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:30:23] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Mike Huerter! Mike shares his experiences participating in plays and ballets first as an actor, and then being "roped into" taking classical dance classes--and how much that has changed his life! His stories are heartwarming and powerful, and he discusses how much portraying certain roles has changed his perpective on his own life journey. (Fun fact: the cover image is of Mike and his dance partner in VidaDance's production of "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker.")

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Episode 035 - Mike Huerter

Lindsey Dinneen:  Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:16]Elizabeth:  It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told . My name is Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, the fantastic Mike Huerter. We actually met through dance , but he has a long and very interesting story of sort of how everything came together. And I am just so thrilled to talk with him today and share his stories with you because he brings a really fun, unique background into his art. And so, Mike, thank you so much for being here today.

[00:01:08] Mike Huerter: Thanks for having me, Lindsey.

[00:01:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, if you don't mind telling us a little bit about how you kind of got started and I just love this whole story of yours, so I'm excited to share it.

[00:01:22] Mike Huerter: Oh gosh. It's been quite a few years back now, actually 21 years ago, back in 2000 I was approached by a female member of our church at the time. And she had a question for me, said, "Hey, would you be interested in performing in a play for us?" And it's like, "Well, sure. I, I can do that. What do you know, what, what kind of play is it?" She said, "Well, it's actually a ballet." It's like, "Oh, wait a minute. I don't wear a tutu. I'm not, you know, I don't dance. I have two left feet, no rhythm." She said, "No, no, just hear me out." She said, "We , there's a place called Dramatic Truth that does a ballet every Christmas called "The Mystery of Christmas" and it's "The Nutcracker" ballet, but it's actually done to the true story of Christmas. And so I, I said, "You know." I kinda thought about it and said, "Yeah, that sounds kind of cool actually." I said, "I wouldn't mind taking a look at that." So did it the very first year and just totally fell in love with it. Fell in love with ballet at that point. Just watching these girls, 13, 14, 17, 18, just giving their all and could barely breathe coming off stage just fascinated me. And I actually got to play the role of Jesus--well I played, do a role of Jesus and Joseph in that play. And that was a very humbling experience in and of itself, actually.

[00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I'm curious though, because I'm so impressed with the fact that you were just like, "Sure I'll be in this play." I mean, have you ever, had you ever acted before, or was--so were you comfortable with the concept? Or were you just like"Sure. I'm up for something new."

[00:03:08] Mike Huerter: Well, I, I have the quote "look" for, you know, the Western American version of Jesus--long hair, back at times, still at my beard was still brown. It's got quite a bit grayer since then, but I, you know, I had done some, some school plays in grade school and high school and had done kind of a musical at one point in like eighth grade, if I remember right. And it was kind of a fifties hip hop thing. Oh gosh. The soda fountain type music back then. And then I had done some church plays prior to being approached by doing this and playing the role of Jesus and everything . Actually did "The Passion of the Christ," and that, that was, yeah. That's, that's a whole 'nother story.

[00:03:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, I mean, I would love to hear it if you want to share about it.

[00:03:52] Mike Huerter: Just the aspect of going and trying to portray Jesus . Halfway through the rehearsal, part of that production, prior to our Easter production, I literally heard the devil say, "Who the hell do you think you are?" And my problem at that point was I started listening to him, and I was close to probably being on the verge of quitting, just because-- excuse me, bear with me-- because I had no right playing that part. Yeah, it's , you know, I don't even come close to being who Jesus is. I mean, I can, I can show Him to the world is how, what I think He should be, but I'm not Him by any means. So I kind of talked to the, the pastor who was producing it and.  She, she of opened me up to really delving in deeper into into my faith at that point. And so I started praying about it and kept going, going to the rehearsals and everything and, and shared with a few people what I was going through.

[00:04:59] And then one day at rehearsal, I was , I believe what I heard was God. Because I heard the devil say it again. It's like, once again, "Who do you think you are?" And I heard another Voice said , "This is my beloved son, and he's here because I want him to be here." Yeah. It just kind of set me back and it's like, "Wow!" I mean, "Did I just really hear that?" Did I think it? Didn't, you know, what's going on here and, and then distinctly felt and heard it again saying ," I'm here because God wants me to be here and to fulfill this role." And I can't remember in my mind visualizing, turning back, looking over my shoulder and it's like, "Hey, I'm out of this. If you have a problem with me doing this, you need to talk the Guy in front of me right now."

[00:05:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes!

[00:05:43] Mike Huerter: So it was like, "Hey, I'm just doing what I gotta do. And it turned out really well. It was a great production.  And it just, it really deepened my faith just to put myself in that role. And then kind of got, I guess, quote "stereotyped" into doing it from that point forward. I mean, people contact me  to play that part, and I love doing it and I mean, it's great.

[00:06:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. That is a powerful story. Thank you for sharing that. That's...

[00:06:09] Mike Huerter: Ah, you're welcome. You're welcome. It's still hard to talk about it so many years later just, just how real that was for me.

[00:06:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I think you captured it well in the way that you were talking about how it's just such a humbling experience to try to portray a character like that.  Obviously that would, I guess, be kind of your ultimate standard of character, but just in general, trying to portray someone that you respect and look up to and admire, I mean--that alone is huge. So yeah. Good for you for listening to the right Voice, ultimately. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay, so then, all right. So fast forward, you got involved in "The Mystery of Christmas" and you obviously were pretty inspired by that, but then what happened after that? Because that kind of changed a little bit of your life from there. And then that kind of inspired you to start doing other things related to ballet. And I don't want to tell your story for you, but can you share a little bit about what ended up happening as a result of all that?

[00:07:18] Mike Huerter: Liz Dimmel, who's the Artistic Director over at Dramatic Truth, after years of performing in "Mystery of Christmas "--about five years ago now-- yeah, I was 55 years old. So she in her, I don't want to say "devious," but she's, she has a mischievous twinkle and smile she, she sometimes gives to people, and she kind of looked at me one day, said, "Hey ,  would you be interested in performing another play that we're going to do?" And it's like, "Well, yeah, you know, sure. I'm always up for doing something different like that." And she said, "Well, now wait a minute. Before you answer that fast, you might want to take into consideration that you will actually have to dance in this one." And it's like, "Ooh " once again, you know, proverbial white guy, two left feet, no rhythm. I don't count music and all that kind of stuff. And she said, '"Well, you know, I've got a DVD. I'd like you to go home, you know, kind of take a look at it and see about, you know, if you'd be interested in doing this. You would be playing the role of Jesus again."

[00:08:19] And so I took the DVD home and I have watched it, and really interesting piece . I kind of started talking to the girls a little bit about it, you know, and they said, "Well, we haven't done that piece in probably five or six years." And it's the piece is a, it was a production about what we all go through in the spiritual battle. Demons abounded in it, and they were tormenting for particular characters in this, in this production, and Jesus being the role of stepping in and intervening to help them. And really, really enjoyed doing the piece. It was, again, another humbling experience ,  touched a lot of people's lives. I was told afterwards even by some of the young ladies that I was performing with. And so anyhow, that that production was over and, well Liz--I went and talked to her, said, "Hey, thanks for, you know, thinking about me for playing this role." And she kinda looked at me and she said , "Would you be interested in taking a dance class?" And it's like, oh again , "Well, tell me more, you know." So she said, "Well, we, we would really like you to come and do our pas class 'cause a lot of the girls don't understand the dynamics of what a guy goes through and performing lifts and, and working with them. And we could, we could really use the help. So I thought about it and talked again to two of the older girls.  You know, "We , we don't get into it very often because we don't have that many guys here." So I said, "Okay, I'll do it." And I'll call Liz and tell her. And she was ecstatic.

[00:09:53] And so I showed up the first night of dance class, and yes, they really did need the help. It was me and eight girls. And it's like, "Am I the only guy?" "Yep." "Oh, great." But I'll tell you what--that, oh my gosh, what a workout. I remember the next morning when the alarm went off to get up for work, I could barely move to get out of bed. My whole body was like, "What did you do?"  But I talked to my youngest son about it and he said, "Dad, that's a phenomenal workout because your body doesn't really know what's coming next. You got different weights sizes, you know? And it's like, that's a great workout." So, and I, once again, fell in love with it and just kept doing it. Unfortunately, you know, this COVID thing has come along and I've had to bow out of it for awhile, but I even at 60 years old, I would welcome to get back into it. And, and they've already told me that they would love to have me back too. So.

[00:10:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Yeah. Well, okay. So first of all, for anyone listening who isn't familiar with the term "pas," it's actually partnering. So it's typically, in classical ballet at least , a man and a woman. And so, yeah, those kinds of classes are, I mean, they're, they're difficult for the girls because they're learning something, a skill that is more advanced and is challenging and can be a little scary sometimes because you're relying on a, another human to catch you and lift you and all those things. But for the guys, it's this tremendous, like you said, workout and responsibility and all those things. So yeah. Thank you for stepping up and bringing brave to help.

[00:11:37] Mike Huerter: Well, you're welcome. And the one thing that we'll say is that, at least at Dramatic Truth--and I'm, I'm, I would hopefully most dance studios are this way--but our number one goal and focus as a male dancer working with a woman, is to protect her at all costs. I mean, when you're trying, when you're throwing somebody up in the air, you know, things can happen. You try not to drop them. And thank God, I have not done that yet to this point. And I don't intend to, but you do whatever you have to do to keep them protected and safe.

[00:12:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And we certainly appreciate that. Oh man. I recall...

[00:12:17] Mike Huerter: I've worked with you, I don't think I dropped you at all, so.

[00:12:21] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I'm still here in one piece. Nope, feel great. Oh, no, but that, it made me chuckle because it reminded me of the first pas that we did together. There was this moment that we incorporated of a shoulder sit, and those things, those things are pretty scary. And I remember just, you know, doing the whole--because the idea is that you run to the--the woman runs to the man. And so you already have momentum going into it, and then you're supposed to jump and turn and he catches you and puts you on his shoulder. That's a lot of things happening at one time. And I just remember practicing it and it was just having this, "Oh, here we go," every time. Like, it's just a hard lift for anyone.

[00:13:09]Mike Huerter: But you did.

[00:13:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it was, it was good, it was a good team effort. It was fun times.

[00:13:14] Mike Huerter: Those kind of things that make it a lot of fun. I mean, if you can, you know--things don't go well the first time, obviously when you try things and you just have to laugh and practice until you get it right.

[00:13:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Absolutely. So out of curiosity, since this was kind of an endeavor you undertook a little bit later than most people start--which is fantastic, I have so much admiration for that-- do you, did you have a lot of like funny conversations with people who were like, "You're doing what?"

[00:13:47] Mike Huerter: Yeah. I still get that actually. It's like you, you're! Well , let me back up. I will say that anybody who doesn't think God has a sense of humor , if people knew me growing up, then they find out I'm now doing ballet. Yeah. God does have a sense of humor. I would never, in my wildest dreams, thought I would be performing in any kind of ballet. So yeah. I still have some interesting conversations. Like, "Did you say ballet?" You know, obviously people get the ideas, like "You're not wearing a tutu or anything?" and I was like, "No, we don't wear tutus, but you know, I still do ballet."

[00:14:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. Oh my gosh. So, okay. So are there any moments, you know, either performing or watching someone perform, or it doesn't even have to be related to dance necessarily, but kind of any moments where you were experiencing art and something really stood out and you kind of tucked it away as a moment to remember?

[00:14:47]Mike Huerter: Oh gosh. There's been a couple moments in, in doing "Mystery" at Christmas where playing the role of Joseph right after the baby is born, I, I carry a really alive baby in the performances out to the center of the stage. And there was one particular year, I remember looking down at this , it was, it happened to be a girl . So , but I noticed one little lone tear rolling out of her eye and it struck me at that point that even then Jesus knew what He was going to do for us later on. And I almost fell to my knees on stage, just at the thought of that. And then there was another year I distinctly remember realizing and feeling is of it, playing that Joseph role, again, that at the, at the end of our little dance performance, I always kissed the baby on the forehead. And it struck me at that point that Joseph--I just got this overwhelming feeling of what Joseph must have felt like to realize he was actually the first physical person to kiss the face of God.

[00:16:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. Those are two really big moments of inspiration. Just getting to think of it in those terms, it kind of brings more realness and, and humanity and, and all those things to this story that's, you know, sometimes feels a little distant. So that's, that's pretty amazing.

[00:16:22] Mike Huerter: Yeah. Those two, I think will probably stand out-- at least for now, anyhow--as probably the two most greatest feelings of my life and in performing.

[00:16:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. Well, and so, you know, once everything kind of gets back to a semblance of normal, whatever that's going to look like , you had mentioned still planning to, you know, get back into it. So you were planning to go back to classes and perform and all that kind of stuff?

[00:16:48] Mike Huerter: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's my goal. I will, I would love to . Just it's, it's a good exercise. It's great exercise. It's you know, it keeps people connected , helps keep me young, hanging around with young, younger people. Because there's, there's going to be a day, you know, that I'm not going to be able to do it anymore. And I'm trying to fight that as much as possible.

[00:17:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Very good. Well, I, I always ask my guests the same three questions and I was wondering if I could go ahead and do that with you?

[00:17:20] Mike Huerter: Well, absolutely.

[00:17:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:17:30] Mike Huerter: Well, you know, art takes many forms dance acting, obviously drawing, painting. So I mean, for me, I think I probably gravitate more towards the acting, dancing role of art then, but that doesn't take away anything from any other art form, by any means ,  you know, musicians and all that. My sons and daughters are very musical. I love music. I, I wish I could play it, but I can't. So I'm in total admiration of people who can. I mean, it's such a gift that they can just-- my son's trying to, you know, he was trying to teach us to harmonize some time. They say, "Dad, it's right there in front of you." And it's like, "No, you don't understand. It's not right there in front of me. It might be for you." 'Cause he's got that ability where he can just pick out notes and play them, that kind of thing. So this would be a very sad world that any form of art . I think art-- it saddened me to see you know, some schools, they, it's not very high on their priority list. I think it's a great outlet for people to express their feelings as things that are going on, maybe emotionally in their lives. It's a great outlet for them, for them to, to bring that out without actually, without actually having to sit down and talk to somebody about it. I mean, they can express it in whatever form they want to. And it's, I think art's more for us, you know, the people are performing it than it is for the people that we're actually presenting it to.

[00:18:54]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, that's great. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:19:01]Mike Huerter: Probably just be true to yourself. You know, you, you can't fake art. It's, I mean, yeah, I'm portraying a role in something, and I guess people would maybe think that's fake, but for me, I want to do it to the very best of my ability. I want people to--when they, when they look and see me doing something, they don't see me, they see the person or, you know, that I'm trying to portray.

[00:19:28]Lindsey Dinneen: I really liked that. Yeah. Okay. And then my final question is, and I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who creates something puts it out into the world and provide some context behind it. It doesn't have to be a lot, but you know, even title, program notes, inspiration, whatever to kind of help give the audience, the background info . Versus exclusive referring to an artist who does create their work, puts it out there, but doesn't provide context behind it. So it's kind of completely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they do.

[00:20:13]Mike Huerter: Oh, goodness. That's a hard question because I can actually see both sides of that. You know, I guess I would probably lean more toward the inclusive because if you're using your art form to convey a message--and there are some people out there who have not been exposed to art-- so it would be as the, as the portrayer of the art, you might have a particular message you want delivered. And if there's no background to to go along with that, the message you're trying to portray may not be seen by the person you're trying to convey it to. So I think a little bit of context behind a piece is beneficial.  But then on the other side, you know, on the, if you're a true artist, then we'll let the person see whatever they want to see in it. But I, I'm still leaning more towards the inclusive.

[00:21:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely think there's value in both. And it's completely up to the artists too, because they can, you know, make decisions based on what makes sense. You know, I've certainly created works that I haven't--well, I almost always, I have to say, I almost always add some sort of program note--but in theory, you know, art should be able to stand on its own as well, right? And then, you know, it's kind of fun to have the background, but you don't always need it.

[00:21:40] Mike Huerter: So yeah, a lot of it just depends on what you're trying to portray. If you, if you just want to do a fun piece to let people think what they will, great. Don't give any context. But if you really, if there's a message in there that you want delivered, I think a little bit of context would help turn the light bulb on, so to speak, for people. It's like, "Oh, I get what they're doing."

[00:21:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious, it's another question kind of popped in my head. So whe--you've talked a lot about what about these really, really deep, impactful moments for you. You know, you've had the opportunity to portray Jesus, which is a huge undertaking. And you know, so I'm, I'm kind of curious: do you find yourself leaning more towards opportunities that give you a chance to share something that's very you know, meaningful to you personally, or do you also enjoy more lighthearted things, or is it kind of like a little bit of both?

[00:22:36]Mike Huerter: I, yeah, I think a little bit of both. I mean, I think originally just because that was the only role I was really being used in was the spiritual until, you know, I got some other opportunities. So I, I, I mean, at this point I kind of welcome just about anything really. The, the aspect of a light-hearted is fun, enjoyable. I mean, like that little coffee piece we did, and we talked about before that we need to somehow bring back. That was fun. That was just a fun, you know, no real spiritual message in it at all. It's more of a an everyday person who's getting up to go to work type message. It's like, "Oh, okay." But yeah, so yeah, anything really? I mean, I, I just enjoy being part of it.

[00:23:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. I think it's fun to have a little bit of both too. Like, I'm all, I'm all about the joy aspect, but I think that it's, you can get that from, from both sides and it's fun to have, have some of both. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Mike, for being my guest today. I really appreciate it, and sharing your stories. I mean, you brought such depth to this conversation, and I really appreciate you being so honest 'cause I know sometimes those are, it's a little hard to be vulnerable when it's, you know, something that it did mean so much to you. So that's, that's really cool that you shared that. So thank you for that. I really appreciate it.

[00:24:01] Mike Huerter: You're very welcome. You're welcome. Anytime.

[00:24:03]Lindsey Dinneen:  And thank you also to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:24:19] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:24:27]Hey, Artfully Told listeners. It's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told, for listening to the episodes, and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you.  I do the whole podcasts myself, from the interviews themselves to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment. And then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast, even a very small, monthly donation, like $5 a month, would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I've set up a PayPal account that you can access through the Artfully Told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making a monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors. So everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day and I'll catch you next time.

In today's episode in celebration of Kevin Dinneen's birthday month, I had him as my guest again on Artfully Told! He shares two powerful stories about his encounters with art: one when he first tap danced as a five-year-old, and one about his innovative way to save a show with his creative choreography idea. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Kevin in our piece, "The Court(ing) Jester.")

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Episode 035 - Kevin Dinneen

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm Lindsey and I am very excited to have my husband, Kevin, on the episode today. And he actually has a really great story, actually, I guess, a couple of stories to share with us today. So I'm going to let you take it from here, Kevin .

[00:00:55] Kevin Dinneen: Okay.

[00:00:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Enjoy.

[00:00:57] Kevin Dinneen: Yes. So it's a two part-er and it's a theme and these are the two dance performances that I have been a part of. As, as far as performing since marrying you--I've had to, I've gotten to be behind the scenes, do a lot of things with performances, but these are the two shows that I've performed in. So the first time--I'll set the scene, 1985, I'm five years old. And I've been a part of a tap class where I was one of two boys and it was all girls otherwise. And the other guy's name was Andy. I don't know if it was sort of like a bulk ordering thing or if they just weren't available back then, but Andy and I had to wear the same tights as the girls. And so we also had pink tights and I'm not quite sure why, but we didn't have an option. It  comes time for recital and we're in this giant, giant theater, This theater was the stage was so big.

[00:02:11] The stage is the biggest non-separated area of space that I had ever stood on, and just like this open space. It was huge. And these spotlights were so big--just to, so this is Gardner, Kansas High School Theater, but as a five-year-old, this was one of the biggest theaters in existence, right? That's what it felt like. It was, I was so intimidated and I just remember the lights being so hot and bright, and I couldn't really see the audience that well. And, I don't have any idea how my performance went as far as if you take into account my current ability to follow choreography. If it's anything like it is now, it was way off, way behind, and just way wrong.

[00:03:07] But I don't even remember that, that doesn't even factor into the story. So what happened then, at the end, we do our bow, and I turned, everybody turns to the side we're supposed to exit on. And, and so I turn and I exit and I get to the end and sort of a weird situation 'cause there's like props and behind-the-scenes stuff like sandbox bags for the curtains and, and there's like lights and stuff, and it's really dark and tell them like, "Oh, this is, this doesn't look like when we came in." And I turned around to see the last person that was, that I was next to, exit on the other side of the stage. And I knew that I had gone the wrong way and there was no, I look around, there's no way it's like the storage closet kind of area, and there's no way to get across the stage without, or you get to the other side of the stage without going across the stage in front of everyone. Oh. And I just remember running as fast as I can, and maybe if I get there as fast as I can, no one will notice. And, but in my mind, in my mind, it never occurred to me that this is a tap recital. And so I start running just as the clapping stops and there's this "clink, clink, clink" gets everyone's attention. This bright pink movement with all this clinking goes screaming across the stage and there's laughter. All of these terrible, horrible parents decide it'll be fun to crush this little boy's spirits.

[00:05:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, oh.

[00:05:04] Kevin Dinneen: I quit. I quit after that. I was crying. I was a mess. I was crying and bawling and didn't want to talk about it. And, I'm done. I took off my tap shoes for the last time, that evening and never picked them up again.

[00:05:19] Lindsey Dinneen: That's such a sad story.

[00:05:21]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. So then fast forward and, Lindsey, you were getting ready to launch your company. Actually, it was the very first show that you were going to be putting on. So Lindsey got presented with this opportunity where she met the director of the Fringe show for Kansas City, which is a big, like 10-day arts festival with all sorts of performing arts, singing, acting, all sorts of stuff, theater, I should say. And, and there was an open slot at the Kansas City ballet performing space there. What would you call that? A studio theater?

[00:06:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:08] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. So it was a studio theater for the Kansas City Ballet. And, after talking with her, she learned that there this open space was available and she had always thought about, or is it sort of like a dream of hers to start her own company. Well, now she has this opportunity to perform.

[00:06:32] Lindsey Dinneen: And, well, and to caveat, not just to perform, though that would have been super exciting in and of itself, but to actually produce a show, which was something that I had never done before in that kind of capacity of creating something from scratch. And just to give some context.

[00:06:53] Kevin Dinneen: Professional level paid gig.

[00:06:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, exactly, to that level. Yeah. I had never done anything like that before. And to give a little bit more context, I was presented this opportunity in what late April, I think. And then does that sound right?

[00:07:12] Kevin Dinneen: I was going to say early May.

[00:07:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Maybe early May...

[00:07:16] Kevin Dinneen: But it was, then was it June that the performance was going to happen in?

[00:07:22] Lindsey Dinneen: July.

[00:07:22] Kevin Dinneen: Oh July. Okay.

[00:07:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, but still to put that in perspective though.--so that was maybe a little over two months' worth that I had to put everything together. So that meant, you know, recruiting dancers and doing the choreography, creating the choreography, getting costumes, rehearsing so that we looked put together. I mean, that might not sound like that much, but that is a lot of work, and a lot put together from nothing in just a couple months. So, so first of all, perspective on, on all, how much this was like a big deal, like a full length.

[00:08:03] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Not just, you know, 20 minutes or something, 10 minutes.

[00:08:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Not a gig, like a whole thing. Yeah.

[00:08:11] Kevin Dinneen: And so, so Lindsey, I remember she was excited, but also nervous, and just had sort of a fear of failure that was kind of keeping her from committing right away. And I remember saying, "Okay, whatever you need help with, I will be there to help, whether it's finding music or props or whatever it is, technical stuff. I can do any of the behind-the-scenes stuff that you need done promoting it, coming up with copy for promotional purposes coming up with photos or videos. You know, we can, we can actually do this. I'm on board." And so I convinced her to do it. I didn't have to try that hard. I just said, "Hey, I'm in this with you. We can do it." And that was pretty much, just kinda someone else that would, that would be there to help.

[00:09:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:09:08] Kevin Dinneen: So, we could actually go back and find the actual date, but I think it was sometime in early June after rehearsing, you'd come up with all of the pieces that you needed for your show. You had recruited everyone, you had actually started setting choreography on your dancers. And, it was something like, do you think you were probably halfway through with, with a certain piece that was going to be--dance that was going to be in this?

[00:09:41] Lindsey Dinneen: I want to say, yeah, probably. I think I had already choreographed it. I mean, gosh, that was a while ago.

[00:09:47]Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So there was this one piece of the puzzle, that was a, it was a pas, right? It was a, it was for non-dancers at the duets, the two person dance.

[00:10:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Typically a one woman, one man.

[00:10:03] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, and so who was going to be her partner in that dance had an injury and wouldn't be able to do this piece. Now we're talking like weeks away and needing now to find a new idea or a replacement partner. So started looking for replacement partners that didn't work out. And, and there was sort of this time where Lindsey, it got to you.

[00:10:37]Lindsey Dinneen: Sure.

[00:10:39] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. It got to, you started feeling the pressure and, and then that got to me, 'cause I'm like, "Hey dude, you know, I'm here, let's do it." Well, what could happen? You know, you got this and, and I'll help. Well, I can't dance. And this is a professional thing. I can't go stand in. I can't go learn years' worth of things and get years' worth of practice and corrections in a, in a month. So I can't just stand in. So I decided that, I would make a comeback as a performer in a dance production. However, I just won't dance.   Well, I guess I did. My dancing won't be the... My dancing won't be the, the highlight of, of my portion. So I decided on this story where we have Lindsey as being sort of the center of attention for two men and one man dances. And then another man is juggling. So I'm the juggler in this. And, the story is basically, each of us vying for attention, vying for her attention. And, then me eventually winning, obviously, because I wrote this.

[00:12:02] Lindsey Dinneen: And we're married now. So...

[00:12:04] Kevin Dinneen: So yeah, I wrote it so that I would win the day. The beauty of this was I didn't have to dance. I fixed the problem and, and I fixed it by the other person in the da... the other guy in the dance didn't have to learn choreography. He would just do whatever he did whatever he wanted to do. There was a little bit of choreography between the two of you, but it wasn't as involved as the original thing. He was already, he couldn't do a whole 'nother piece, but with this, he just had to do a few tricks, mostly here and there. And so it kind of checked all the boxes and so I was able to then, it worked well. There was one hiccup, and I really need to start paying attention to my stage left and stage right directions. I, I had sort of a return of, of an issue from when I was five. And what happened was I, as, as part of the show, the last piece in the show was going to be sort of a, a piece making fun of, or kind of...

[00:13:17] Lindsey Dinneen: I called it my Murphy's Law rehearsal piece.

[00:13:19] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was a, it was a comical please showing things that can go wrong during a rehearsal. And, or rehearsals in general, like people forgetting the right shoes or, you know, screwing things up, you know, any which way. And so, you know, we kind of...

[00:13:38] Lindsey Dinneen: It's an exaggerated  parody, but tons of fun.

[00:13:41] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. And, so I finished my, my juggling piece, called "The Courting Jester" by the way. I was pretty proud of that title and, so I get done with my piece. And I'm also doing all the filming and, and taking photos and things like that on, in the pieces that I'm not in. So I go to get ready to get my camera stuff, and after my piece and I'm going along doing my thing. And then, and then I remember that, or I realized, "Hey, this is the piece before the final piece that is making fun of the rehearsal stuff and I'm in that. So I need to go get in place now."  So before the piece before the piece I'm supposed to be in...

[00:14:27] Lindsey Dinneen: So the second-to-last piece of the show...

[00:14:30] Kevin Dinneen: Thank you! Okay.

[00:14:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:14:32] Kevin Dinneen: When the house lights go down right before the second-to-last piece, I go get on the side that I'm going to go-- the side of the stage that I'm going to enter from, which is opposite where the Green Room and stuff like that is, and changing rooms and stuff. So, I'm there on that side of the stage, and the piece starts, and I realize that I need my juggling balls for this piece. And I left them in the Green Room on the other side of the stage. Flashback to when I was five. I can't run across the stage.  I can't run across the stage during the piece. Luckily in this case, there was a backdrop, a black curtain backdrop, and a little bit of space in between there and the wall. So I decided I have to get across the stage and retrieve my juggling balls and then get back before, as opposed to enter the stage. Now the trick is I can't hurry because it'll make the curtain kind of wave,  if you pass by it too quickly.

[00:15:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And, and just for context, so he's kind of referring to is there's like the wall of the theater. And then what do you say? Like a foot? Is it even that much of space?

[00:15:49] Kevin Dinneen: So I couldn't walk shoulder to shoulder.

[00:15:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Or straight.

[00:15:54]Kevin Dinneen: I had to like sidestep.

[00:15:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, along the wall, essentially.

[00:15:58] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, I would say 12 inches or a little bit less. Yeah.

[00:16:01]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, so it's not a whole lot of space and it goes to the wall and then you have a little bit of space and then the black backdrop, and then from there the stage. So you actually, we don't have quite the full depth of the stage, but just to give some context. So as he's trying to maneuver behind the backdrop, like he's saying, if you move too fast--you can't run because if you move too fast, then the curtain, the whole curtain ripples, and it's just super distracting for the audience. So, yeah.

[00:16:31] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And then, and then I'm not supposed to be back there either.

[00:16:36] Lindsey Dinneen: 'Cause there's a lot of crossovers for the dancers in the piece.

[00:16:38] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. So that's the thing. That's what I was worried about. So I, I get back there and I'm moving across and then all this--you can't see like an arms length in front of you--I mean, it's, it's pitch black out there. Luckily the dancer that I passed, she was headed the opposite way. They're so dark and we didn't never talked about it. So I don't even know who it was. And, and we passed, we saw each other and then passed very, very slowly and I was jammed up against the wall. And, so I got to the other side and got my juggling balls from the Green Room and then slowly worked my way back across. And I think I had three seconds before I had to go on stage. Like I got to the--

[00:17:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow.

[00:17:31] Kevin Dinneen: So I got, so there, there were like three wings. Is that right?

[00:17:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:17:35] Kevin Dinneen: So, so the wing is the side of the stage. And it's blocked so you can't see behind it, but they're like three depths of these curtains.  And I had to get to the farthest one to the thing. Keep in mind, there are all these side lights and stuff and cords going everywhere. And there's people standing there getting ready and there's props. And so by the time I got back, I really had about three seconds before I had to come out juggling. And, I got out and I did my juggling part, and realized, sort of I had this moment of, you know, being able to have conquered my problems with  my wings to the stage.

[00:18:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Redemption! I don't think I knew--and see, I, this, this kind of thing happens a lot in my dancers and guest artists, as I will consider Kevin are, smart not to tell me as things are happening, but later they tell me these stories, 'cause I definitely had no idea that--

[00:18:37] Kevin Dinneen: I'm pretty sure you didn't have any idea how close I cut it until right now.

[00:18:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, no, I didn't even realize it was that close.

[00:18:44] Kevin Dinneen: Even when I told you what had happened, I left out the three seconds.

[00:18:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. And it's and yeah, my goodness. Yeah. And it's crazy because, you know, that's real life. Things like this happen all the time and, and crazy little things just go wonky. I mean, it's live theater. So, as they say, the show must go on and you never know, but yeah, that's, that's a pretty--I did not know that.

[00:19:15] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And so in my mind too, I was like, so do I go out? And, and like fake, cause they've seen me juggled before, they'll know what I'm doing. And like, it might've worked. I could have improved and, and been like, you know, some sort of emotion like, "Oh shoot. I was supposed to bring juggling balls to the rehearsal, but I forgot. I'll just do this." And, you know, it could have worked. Never even crossed my mind until right now during the session I've told this story. I guess I don't think on my feet. 

[00:19:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and it's funny too, because I think-- well, you, you mentioned maybe like now you're kind of thinking through all the ways you probably could have made it happen and it would be no big deal. I mean, the audience wouldn't know the difference. And it's so funny because I think as dancers, when you grow up dancing, you have, you learn how to adapt really quickly to circumstances that you don't anticipate. So, and that's so common. I mean, there there've been, I can't even tell you how many costume changes I've had that have been super quick, where I barely made it on stage or didn't make it on stage for my cue. And then you have to figure out, "How do I adapt and how do I change?" And it's so interesting to hear it from your perspective. 'Cause I was thinking, I mean, even if you hadn't entered from the correct wing, I mean, you could have entered like a couple back and we could have, but you know, you don't think like that. You just think, and this is normal for, I think everyone, but you just sorta think like, "No, this is my role." Like, "This is what I've learned." And so you end up like rushing around and doing crazy stuff.

[00:20:49] Kevin Dinneen: Well, yeah, we rehearsed it so many times. Other people are depending on me to be where I'm supposed to be. And that's, you know, all I'm thinking is it's tunnel vision.

[00:20:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:21:00] Kevin Dinneen: What I rehearsed.

[00:21:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:21:01] Kevin Dinneen: It's, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah. So that was the last time that I performed so far.

[00:21:08]Lindsey Dinneen: I think he, he definitely, yeah. I mean, he's, he says that--but I remember after the performances, I remember you talking about, well, that was, that was my, what did you call it? Like your your one and done, or you're, you're retiring from performing after this or something . I don't remember. You had a funny catchphrase about it, I think.

[00:21:28] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, I did. I, I think I said I was going to go into retirement while my career was at its peak, something along those lines.

[00:21:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and we kind of glazed over this detail, but the reality is Kevin is actually an incredibly talented juggler. So you might not know this about him, but he wasn't just going out and doing very basic juggling--although that would have been impressive too, because I really can't juggle very well-- but, but no, you should actually talk about a little bit about your juggling career because you actually, this is an art that you have perfected. Yeah. It's a whole thing for you.

[00:22:07] Kevin Dinneen: So far from perfected, but yeah, I started juggling at 13 and it was a fun, sort of a hobby. And in my teens, I started working at a nursing home, and decided, you know, it might be fun to put on a little show for the residents at the nursing home. And, and, that was really my peak as far as being into juggling and juggling often. So I'd put on a show every Sunday night for those residents where I worked. And then I started doing shows at other, other nursing homes and assisted living places and retirement--that whole kind of idea. And I just kind of--so technically I was a professional gettting paid to juggle.

[00:22:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:52] Kevin Dinneen: But, yeah. And then since then, I hadn't really juggled seriously ever...

[00:23:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Since then...

[00:23:01] Kevin Dinneen: Until your show. And I decided to actually keep it simpler for your show, because I didn't want to screw up, because it had been so long. And I didn't realize it until after I saw the video that I had accidentally, and without even realizing it, slipped back into a complicated move called a Mill's Mess, where your arms, your hands crisscross while you're juggling. One hand goes over the other and then you switch mid-throw. And, I did not even realize that I had done that. And I think I did it every night, and I'd never even realized.

[00:23:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. We went back and watched the videos. And, and you had, you had done Mill's Mess perfectly every single night without even being aware, being conscious of that was what you were doing.

[00:23:52] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, I didn't realize it. I was just in the zone.

[00:23:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Which is probably good because, you know, if you, if you had gotten kind of into your head, you might've started doubting it versus just having that muscle...

[00:24:02] Kevin Dinneen: If I had planned it, I would have worried about it and yeah, you're right. I would have been in my head about it.

[00:24:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:24:09] Kevin Dinneen: Or, should I do that?  And for me, when I learned it, it's sort of a milestone. And, kinda marked I'm better than intermediate now. And so it would have probably--since I kind of defined myself as a more-than-intermediate juggler having learned that-- I wanted to kind of say intermediate level for the sake of the show so I didn't screw anything up. And I would have probably thought about that too much.

[00:24:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I can see that. It, it's sometimes, it's just better to let your muscle memory take over, and magic happens that way sometimes. So yeah. So you have a background in juggling, and he likes to say sometimes that he was a professional in the, how do you put it? You call yourself, you, you did the?

[00:24:56] Kevin Dinneen: Oh, I worked the nursing home circuit.

[00:24:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. I love it.

[00:25:00] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I worked for the nursing home circuit.

[00:25:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my word. I love it. So, yeah, so, so what do you think, are you officially retired or are you kind of leaving it open-ended? 'Cause...

[00:25:12] Kevin Dinneen: Well, you heard me say that I retired and I've said it several times...

[00:25:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, you know, but are you retired? Or like, you know, "retired?"

[00:25:21]Kevin Dinneen: Okay.  I would reprise that role. I would even expand it a little bit into like a three-part.

[00:25:31] Lindsey Dinneen: It could be a longer piece. It was very cute.

[00:25:34] Kevin Dinneen: And, you know, it was really just designed to fill the spot that was vacant. So yeah, I would be willing to do that.

[00:25:42] Lindsey Dinneen: All right, folks. You heard it. You heard it here. If I ever need to hold him to it, it's recorded. Oh my gosh.

[00:25:50] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So I've already asked or I've, I've already answered your three questions.

[00:25:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah!

[00:25:56] Kevin Dinneen: Do you have three new questions for me?

[00:25:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, dear. You're my first repeat guest. So, no, I don't. Let me ask you this. Let's say you're at the end of your life and you can only witness one piece of art for the last time ever. So let's say this is like your, the last thing that you're gonna experience. Or, you know, like either you're gonna watch it or you're gonna look at it or you're gonna listen to it or read it or kind of whatever. What would that be?

[00:26:37]Kevin Dinneen: Can I say maybe one of two and like, if it were actually happening, maybe I would be able to decide?

[00:26:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. I think that's fair.

[00:26:46] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So, so actually you're in both. Probably "The Courting Jester," or the first time I saw you perform, which is at the Kauffman Center for Performing Arts in Kansas City. And, the show is "Underground," telling the story of the Underground Railroad or a story within that complex situation. But I, I don't know, probably one of those two.

[00:27:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, yeah, that's a good answer. Okay, well, and for all of you listening, I actually have the ability for you to, to watch "The Courting Jester." So if you are particularly interested in seeing it, which it is really fun, then we will actually post the link to it so that you can see it, like I said on YouTube and to get a feel for the, at least the original version, and maybe we'll have a future rendition.  So definitely check that out on YouTube. And then, Kevin, do you offer any kind of personal juggling coaching, or is there a way we can connect with you outside ?

[00:27:57] Kevin Dinneen: So, you can connect with me. Comment on the video. And, if you're interested in learning how to juggle, I actually do have a method to teach that I came up with. And, so far, to have three juggling balls in the air at one time for a sustained length of time. We'll call it like a minute. I think my record is three minutes of teaching, so.

[00:28:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Yeah. And it's, it actually is a really, really good method to follow because I thought I could never juggle, and he taught me, and I'm not brilliant at it by any stretch of the imagination. I haven't practiced that much. But, but when I was practicing, based on his method is actually really simple to follow and it makes you definitely realize that you can do this if you want to. And you can just, as long as you practice it, it's a lot of fun. I had no hand/ eye coordination because I'm just not very gifted at sports or anything like that. And I just kind of assumed, "Oh, juggling is going to be another one of those things that is not going to come to me." 

[00:29:08] Kevin Dinneen: And I haven't monetized my method. So if you're just interested, I'll tell you how it's done.

[00:29:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Well, thank you very much, Kevin. I appreciate it. Thank you to all of you who have listened to this episode. We would love it if you would like to share with any of your friends who might just need a little burst of joy and inspiration, and we will catch you next time. That's all for today.

[00:29:36] Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share it with your friends. If you'd leave us a review and rating, and subscribe to our podcast, you'll get notified when the newest episodes come out. Thank you for sharing art with us, and we hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Joseph Pilgram! Joe is a professional dancer, ballroom dance instructor, and art-lover extraordinaire! He takes us along his journey from how taking a single ballroom class in college led to him pivoting his career goals from nurse to dancer, and has both heartwarming and humorous stories to share along the way. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Joe and Lindsey dancing their ballroom-inspired pas de deux, dance for two, "Wonderful World.")

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Episode 34 - Joseph Pilgram

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:14] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so delighted to have as my guest today, my good friend and dance partner, Joseph Pilgram. He is based out of St. Joseph, Missouri, and he is an incredible artist himself. He is a professional dancer. He's a ballroom dance instructor. And Joe, I think you've probably dabbled in a bunch of other different things. Well, I would love if you would share just a little bit about maybe who you are and how you kind of got interested in art.

[00:01:13] Joe Pilgram: All right. Well, thank you for having me. And, yeah, I'm definitely excited to be here. So with dance is one of those things that I got into as a little kid with break dancing and watching the kids on TV, but I was more of a closet dancer and, you know, you'd watch "Footloose" with Kevin Bacon, and I'd do some punch dancing in my basement or, you know, secretly, and I never went to really any high school dances or any school dances except my senior year. And, that's how I ended up getting into dance was because of a girlfriend I had at the time that we went to a wedding and she saw her aunt and uncle doing some social dancing. I can't remember if it was a polka or swing dance or whatever it happened to be, but she said, "Oh man, that'd be fun to learn how to dance like that. Do you want to?" And I said, "Sure," knowing, you know, in my heart that music made my body move. I just never had any formal lessons. So, so we signed up for a class together at Missouri Western State College, which is now Missouri Western State University.

[00:02:29] And she, she and I broke up, but I thought, "Well, maybe I'll see her in the class." So, I, I held on, and classes started and she had dropped out of the class, but there were only three guys in the class and about 30 girls. And I thought, "Oh man, I better learn these steps pretty quickly because I don't want to look foolish in front of everybody." You know? So while taking that class, that the dance teacher, Paul Chambers, who also had studied modern dance under Hanya Holm, who was one of the pioneers of modern dance. He said, "You look to pick up the steps fairly quickly. I think you ought to look into other forms of dance." And so I, I took his word and I joined his Missouri Western dance company. I can't remember its technical name, but it was something along those lines. And, so he, he got me into doing modern dance.

[00:03:34] And, from there, I quote/unquote defected to UMKC after about, after about three years of taking ballroom, social dance and modern dance. And, so I followed a friend down to UMKC, a friend named Elisha, and she, she had already taken classes at UMKC and had enrolled there. And so I, I followed her down there and started taking classes, and very similar experience with Paul. The teachers said, "Hey, why don't you come back? Looked like you really liked dancing and you're picking up the movement at a decent rate. You're a little rough around the edges. Let's clean you up."

[00:04:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Love it.

[00:04:21] Joe Pilgram: Yeah. So that's, that's how I ended up getting into dance.

[00:04:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. And so then you, okay, so then you enrolled in college for dance, which I imagine had probably never been on your radar before, is that correct?

[00:04:39] Joe Pilgram: Correct. I didn't know a dance degree existed .When I started college the previous summer I was working construction and traveling to Omaha, Nebraska to work construction with a friend up there, and I realized, "Wow, this is a, this is a lot of hard work, maybe out-- see what, what other things are out there that might be indoors? I didn't mind really being outdoors, but I knew that, you know, by the time you're 60, you might not want to have that kind of a rough and tumble lifestyle where you're around a lot of heavy machinery that's really loud. And, you know, the possibility of getting injured and getting blasted by the sun nonstop. It was, you know, to each his own, I have a lot of, a lot of, respect for people in that field. I just knew that it wasn't cut out for me. And so, my dad said, "Well, you know, nursing is, male nurses are high in demand. Do you want to go into that field?" And so that's what I started initially at Missouri Western was looking into a nursing degree.

[00:05:50]And then, because I enrolled in the dance class, I found out pretty quickly that guys were also really high in demand within the dance world. It's kind of a joke. I tell the people, even at my ballroom classes is that, you know, I thank the ladies for, for bringing their husbands along and to, to have them there. Usually to get a guy to dance, it takes alcohol and yeah, and then he can't remember the steps in the class. So we're thankful that he's there and that he's, you know, here to learn to dance, and that everybody's sober and we're going to have a great time. So, so, yeah, it's one of those things that, guys... still are the competition's pretty steep among ladies, as far as I can tell. I mean, it's, it's always been fairly steep competition, wouldn't you say?

[00:06:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Oh yeah. Hands down.

[00:06:50] Joe Pilgram: Yep. And, yeah, at some point, guys stop dancing. My wife and I have a couple of kids and, and they dance to music. I think lots of kids dance to music, but at some point they either get shamed or feel ashamed or feel awkward, or maybe they just go into sports hardcore or, and they don't think about dance. But, another brief story is my dad. I was watching something and I don't even remember--it must've been the Olympics or maybe it was a pre-Olympic show that involved dancing. And I was, and I mentioned something, he said, "Well, that's pretty impressive what they're doing." And I said, "That looks easy." And he said, "Why don't you try it?" And I found out pretty quickly, it wasn't as easy as I thought. Yeah.

[00:07:48]But yeah, it was definitely stuff that, that I found interesting. You know, it's a form of art that is very physical, with your body being your instrument, you know. If you play piano, your fingers are very important, but you can replace the strings on the piano. You can tune the piano. A dancer's body, you know, has a limited amount of time, as far as what it can do. And, your whole body is your instrument. And so you, you start talking with people that are much wiser than you, that have lived longer, that help you understand how important it is to take care of your body if you want to have a lengthy dance career.

[00:08:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. I have those conversations with my students regularly about how important it is to think of your long-term plan, not just your short term disappointment that you can't do something because you're injured. Because those injuries, if you don't take care of them, can develop into something that does end your future, right? So thinking about in terms of, "Okay, I missed out on this one opportunity, which is disappointing," but ultimately, like you said, you only have you, so you've got to protect your body and treat it right.

[00:09:11] Joe Pilgram: Yes. Yeah. And, also sometimes those injuries change your trajectory, or maybe how you interpret things as an artist, how am I gonna, how am I gonna work through this? Because when you're dancing professionally, sometimes you don't collect a paycheck if you don't perform. So you have to find ways either to make sure that you don't get injured, or how am I going to work through this safely? Can I alter this? Can I sculpt this thing differently and still get, you know, the, the idea across that I'm hoping to do?

[00:09:53]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yes, exactly. Yeah, that's a really good point too, because there are certain circumstances where that's really important. I mean, I think both of us have dealt with that at various points in our career to just sort of, okay, this isn't going to work the way it used to anymore. For me, it's always back-related things, so I can't bend like that anymore. So how can we do this safely? Yeah. And supportive. So, yeah, absolutely. Cool. Okay. So then, all right. You went to UMKC, you got your degree in dance. And then where did life take you after that?

[00:10:32] Joe Pilgram: From there, while at UMKC, they offered professional dance experiences and worked with Wylliams-Henry Dance Theater, and gained some great knowledge, worked with some great choreographers through them. While at the same time, working with a couple of local dance studios that needed guys to perform in their Christmas shows, whether it be a "Nutcracker" or "Coppelia." I think we did "Sleeping Beauty," "Cinderella," that the classic ballets that are performed. And so that, that really bumped up my level of partnering really. Because that was why the studios would bring me in around Christmas time and that was something that was, you know, it was great that UMKC had those opportunities to provide. But, did those, and ended up heading down to Branson, Missouri, I'd probably say around 2004 and work a show there.

[00:11:39] The job itself actually felt more like factory work because it was cookie cutter dancing in the aspect of when you do a concert dancing, you know, it's artistic and it's all about the dancer, but when you go and do a show for somebody like Andy Williams, he's the headliner and you're the icing on the cake. You, you aid to them. And, you do, I don't know--I think with, with some of these shows, you do 200 of the same shows in a year, a couple of shows a day, depending on what the show was. And if it was, you know, around Christmas, I think Branson, Missouri's Christmas season started up November 1st. And, I know to maintain my sanity during that time, because you'd start rehearsals-- sometimes you'd have Christmas rehearsals in August, and you'd hear Christmas music starting that early. And to maintain your sanity, you'd find other things such as The Beach Boys to listen to, to throw your mind into like a different state to go, "Okay. I need to get someplace else so that I can get through this." And, well, like I said, the opportunity was a great opportunity. Sometimes you don't know what you want until you try something and you go, "Okay, that was all right. But I think I want something different."

[00:13:16] That's the beauty of working in the United States that you're not sealed into doing something that you, you don't want to do that. You can work towards finding that perfect job. A lot of times there'll be people that complain about different work. And I had a, a guy at Shoji's--we were complaining about rehearsals or something. And he, he said a hilarious line. We were complaining about something small, but we felt like it was a big issue. And, he was an older fellow that was in the army at one point, he was in Vietnam and that was his response was, "Well, this sure beats Vietnam." Okay. And that, and that shut us up pretty quick. Really puts things into perspective. We were like, "Okay. Yeah, yeah. He's totally right. Everything is great here. We're doing fine. We're not in a war."  But, yeah, my journey from Branson took me back to the Kansas City area where I started working with Storling Dance Theater, and I ended up meeting you performing in that company. So that was a blessing.

[00:14:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:14:35] Joe Pilgram: And, then worked with you in your dance company, VidaDance. And, so had some, some fun doing that, and now you and I kinda catch up when we can, just to do independent work together and, yeah. That creative process, we can chat about that in a little bit. I always find it fascinating. Yeah. It's pretty cool.

[00:14:57] Lindsey Dinneen: It is cool. Yeah, actually, I think we should dive into that 'cause that is kind of a unique thing that we've been able to find this kind of synergy in the way that we approach music and choreography and all of that. And it's, you know, it's not necessarily the typical way of creating new work, but we've actually been really happy with the results of it. And I think, because we infuse so much sort of joy into the process, it's really obvious to our audiences too. And I think that that's kind of a fun, it's a fun, unique thing. So yeah. I'd love if you chat more about that.

[00:15:33] Joe Pilgram: Oh, definitely. Yeah. A lot of times when we get together, we've both been working so hard and pulled in different directions that we might show up and not have even focused on a specific song. We might not even know a song that we're going to dance to and haven't thought about any kind of movement to it. And so we show up and say, "Hey, how's it going?" And then we just start moving around, and yeah, art tends to just transpire. It's actually magical that it happens the way that it does it. I don't think that usually happens with other dance related choreography that, that I've ever fiddled with. Usually I racked my brain trying to think of, of things, but when we catch up, usually there's a, yeah, there's definitely joy involved and just art happens. It's, it's phenomenal.

[00:16:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, it is. And it's, it's really fun too, because I mean, one of the craziest examples that I can think of right off the bat is in this case, we did know kind of what the task at hand was. We knew that we needed to create a really fresh take on the "Nutcracker," you know, sort of grand pas de deux because it is, it's kind of a well-known thing. But when we created "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker," it was really important to us that we create something that was unique and was sort of the VidaDance approach. Yeah. And I don't, I had like a series of unfortunate events the morning that we were supposed to start this piece. And I was, I was so late to rehearsal. I was probably--how much time do you think we actually had to start that piece?

[00:17:36] Joe Pilgram: I think we had about a month, but when I say a month it was like four or five rehearsals.

[00:17:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it was crazy. And so in that particular day, we had like two things on the docket and I needed to do another thing right after it. I just remember like getting into the, into the studio, thinking, "Oh my goodness, we're starting from scratch. I have nothing in my head." And we just started moving to the music and that's a pretty epic pas that we created. It's really fun. It, the process is so fun when you can just kind of play around. But I think, you know, one of the things is so interesting-- an audience member pointed out to us last year after we finished performing--was, "t's obvious that you to trust each other a lot." And trust is such an important element in creating, you know, partnered choreography. Do you want to talk about that at all? 'Cause that was, that's definitely something that's like, especially free for you-- I mean, you're lifting, you're spinning, you're, you know, you're doing--oh, my gosh--is it ever like super intimidating or are you just like, "No, I've got this."

[00:18:46] Joe Pilgram: You know, I had never really thought about this until maybe having kids or getting married, but I always knew my limitations, but that's because I was always pushing my boundaries growing up. And I, you know, as an artist in general, I think that's really important to keep that in mind is, you know, having not being restricted, not, not cutting yourself short on experimenting with different things. And I remember just even running through the creek with my brother, pretending to be ninjas and jumping across the creek, or, you know, sometimes you'd make it. And sometimes you wouldn't, but at those moments, I didn't realize that I was calibrating my system and finding those boundaries. And so when it came to partnering, I already was familiar with what I could and couldn't do. And so, you know, it, it became second nature. And for the most part, it wasn't about me when I partner, that it was always about the person I was partnering, that the main focus was, make them look good. And I, I take a lot of joy in doing that. I think I like to help people. And that is a hands-on, direct thing that can happen on with doing pas de deux work is you're making someone look, you know, the best that they can, whether it's doing more turns than they usually could on pointe or, or flying them through the air for a lengthier amount of time. And, and I get a kick out of that.

[00:20:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, you. Yes. And I think that you've mentioned before you actually don't really prefer solo work. It's more partnering that, that really kind of resonates with you. Is that?

[00:20:56] Joe Pilgram: Yes, definitely true. Yeah. I, I'm not a soloist. I can do solo work, but I prefer not to, I believe that yeah, being out there--and I've joked with you that like hiding behind you is so much easier as a dancer. You know, obviously this, you know, I'm  helping you stay on balance or, you know, different things, that, that we collaborate together. And I think there's a lot of fun in that collaboration process.

[00:21:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. I agree, yes. And, and just to be clear for anyone who's listening, who maybe hasn't hasn't had a behind-the-scenes sort of glimpse into the rehearsal process, but let's wait, there are a lot of funny moments that happen when we're rehearsing and the lift or something doesn't quite go as planned. I mean, thankfully, you know, as an audience member, you get to see this final image and it's, it's glorious and it's wonderful, but, yeah, it's, it is not always like that. So yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

[00:22:04]Joe Pilgram: Well, part of that is, is, you know, a to add to that backstory is I've never dropped a partner, which gives you the confidence to go, "Well, he's going to swing me upside down. My head's going to be close to the floor as we take this pendulum-like swing and then he's going to flip me back up."

[00:22:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yes.

[00:22:29] Joe Pilgram: And having that, that confidence that I'm not going to drop you is huge. Now, when we were getting into the move and getting out of it is just as important artistically. And so those are the moments where, you know, things might be a little awkward where we're like, "Huh. Well, you did that little shimmy shake in the video that didn't really fit with the ballet. What was going on?" "Oh, well I had to reposition my legs and then you were moving your arms." And so, yeah. There's yeah, we get to, to try and try again during that rehearsal process, which is, is key to cleaning and, and, and making things look finished, but it's a lot is discovered in that rehearsal process.

[00:23:17]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Because the two of us tend to work by ourselves, without necessarily a third person to comment during the, at least the creation process of it, we actually utilize video quite a bit to capture it and then watch ourselves and go, "Oh, that didn't work very well. What is my leg doing," or whatever. And so that's part of our process first. And then kind of at the end is when we bring in, you know, other people to go, "Oh, it didn't really read for me or, you know, whatever it needs to be." So yeah. That's fun. Yeah. So, yes. So I was wondering if any stories come to mind, either like funny behind-the-scenes stories or a time when you felt really inspired or just is there anything that kinda stands out in your mind as, "Oh gosh, this is a moment to remember."

[00:24:11] Joe Pilgram: Oh, there's lots of them. How long do you have--two hours now? Oh, man. Yeah, there's, there's definitely been some, some silly stories. You've experienced a couple of them where I've ripped my pants. But, this is a great story. Yeah, the show must go on, right? I believe that was in a rehearsal. We were, I had bought these dress pants to perform. We were getting ready to do a show in Paola, and Lindsey, you were supposed to run facing me on a diagonal and then jump into the air and do a 180 degree turn and then land on my shoulder. And I squat down a little bit lower and I, and I go to lift you and during that time, there was a, a girl that was interested in your company and we just met her like maybe 15 minutes before and said, "Hey, you want to stick around and you can, you can check out our rehearsal."

[00:25:16] And, so you, you went running toward me, jumped into the air and I squatted down. And most people are familiar with when you have a can of biscuits that you get from the grocery store and you unravel that cardboard, and then you hit it on the, the cabinet, you know, the corner of something to get it to pop. And that's just what my pants sounded like. Yeah. And they exploded, the seat of my pants completely exploded, right in front of the person that we just met. So from there, I think I sit you down as gracefully as possible while backing up away from everyone and said, "I'll be back. I need to change my trousers." But that's happened in live in one show when I was in Branson and I had to kick my leg over my partner shortly after that. And pull her through my legs in a swing dance type move.

[00:26:21] And, oh, I, I was laughing hysterically. Well, I was holding my breath, trying not to laugh on stage. And then, yeah, when we left stage, we were both laughing pretty hard. And another time it happened just before the curtain went up and I had to race backstage and change into another set of jeans that did not match what anybody else was wearing. And that was a question after the show, they're like, "Hey, your jeans didn't match that first number. What happened?" I'm like, "Yeah, I was stretching and I jumped into the air. And then when I landed, they, they split out." But, it's yeah, I've been cursed with that, but, but yeah, it's definitely been other humorous stories, behind the scenes, things that do occur.

[00:27:09] Another one was when I was doing Shoji's. Yeah. And we were supposed to come out as tap dancing soldiers. They had this Christmas tree that was, it had hydraulics that, that allowed the Christmas tree to split in two and open up like a double doors. And these tap dancing toy soldiers would come out. And, we're getting ready to go out and we hear our music coming and then the stage techs, which they're a huge role, you know, it's one of those things, stage techs, whether it's in pro wrestling or theater, other sorts that they're, they're very important, but it's also, they're like backstage ninjas. You don't actually see them work. And so, the tech pushes the button to open the hydraulic tree and we hear him go, "The button didn't work, the tree's not opening." And it sounded like from a movie like "Predator," where you have this war type scene and things are going wrong. And, so the music's playing, the tree doesn't open and one of the guys gets on the radio and he said, "Guys, the tree isn't opening." And this, we probably lost about 15 seconds in which I think at least 12 soldiers were supposed to march out on stage, toy soldiers.

[00:28:38] And one of the texts says on the radio, we'll tell them to go around the tree. And, the original tech standing by says, he said, "Just go, go around the tree and dance." And the dance captain looks at him and says, "We don't know where we are." And he meant to say, "The music has started and our starting point has passed. We don't know where we are in the music." And he looked, yeah, he says, "We don't know where we are. " And you know, the guy looks at us, quizzically, the tech. And then he hesitantly gets on the radio and says, "He said he doesn't know where he is." And we hear the other guy on the far end shout, "He's behind the tree." Just the misinterpretation of, you know, the context of the wording and everything coming together and just miscommunication. But, yes, lots of humerous experiences that, that do occur.

[00:29:39] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing. That is such a good example of miscommunication. When the two worlds' sort of languages and common phrases don't translate because that makes complete sense to me as a dancer going, "Yeah, of course you don't know where you are in the music. That makes complete sense." But of course, that sounds absurd to someone else. Like, "Well, you're right here. Nothing's changed." Oh, I love it. I love it.

[00:30:08] Joe Pilgram: But, but yeah, dance has been an interesting journey. You know, with it being a conglomeration, I feel, of other artistic elements. You know, most of the time we dance with music, but there are some times where we dance with no music. Dancing with live music is different than dancing with prerecorded music. And, and interpreting dance and making those connections with other forms of art, whether it's music, how you have the dynamics of sustained notes or loud and soft pianissimo. And, and, what's the other one? Is it fortissimo?

[00:30:57] Lindsey Dinneen: That sounds right, but it's been awhile.

[00:31:00]Joe Pilgram:  But, but we interpret those with our movement and whether our movement, we have high notes. You think about dynamics and things that make things interesting. And as an artist in general, whether it's spoken word, music, theater, even graphic design. How are you going to use these colors? Well, this is a bright color or, you know, moments like that, that we take in as dancers. And we go, "Okay, well, this is we're going to find something that's symmetrical. Okay. This part's going to be asymmetrical. Okay. This part's going to be--so-and-so's going to be on the ground and this other person's going to be in the air," and it's taken all of these elements in from, from different angles of art and applying it choreographically to make it an interesting thing.

[00:31:58] You know, that I had, a teacher at UMKC, it was Catherine Plotkin and she said, "You know, there's two ways that you can interpret this. You can have dance that tells a story, or you can have dance for dance's sake." And when I look at dance for dance's sake, I think about a kaleidoscope of shapes, moving from lines and curves and different designs happening, which, you know, falls under abstract art. As far as when you're watching a performance, some people don't get that, and we hope to, to allow them to, we want to bring them in. We want to show them, you know, whether it's from the description of the piece or maybe just a, a small writeup, and even you had mentioned that you don't want. Dance does seem like this insider's club, like, "Oh, you know, they don't, they don't get it because they're not artistic enough." And that doesn't seem like a great avenue, at least in my opinion to take. What was your take on that? I think maybe you're in the same boat.

[00:33:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely think that art shouldn't be an exclusive club at all. I think that art is really special. It, it helps people grow and connect and feel alive, feel all sorts of different emotions. And I think that whenever we, as artists, can connect with someone who doesn't have the same experience, I think that's a really special moment of humanity coming together. So yeah. That's you, you said it perfectly.

[00:33:55] Joe Pilgram: Yeah. Yup. Just taking those, those dynamics and you even touched on something when you said it, the feeling and I think in general, art should make people feel something. You know, you want to feel alive, whether it's happiness, sorrow, the gamut of emotion, you know, a wide range of emotions. But dance just feels like this outward expression of something that's like an inward feeling.

[00:34:24]Lindsey Dinneen: I know this is a tough question to answer, but are there any pieces that you've performed that really stand out to you as being extra meaningful or special or something like that? Just, you know, specifically things that kind of stand out as, "Wow. That was a really cool experience. Or I, I really could connect with the audience here," or, or anything like that.

[00:34:48]Joe Pilgram: Well, a lot of the pieces that you and I have done . But the stuff we've done together from "On a Whim," I enjoyed that, to even the "Nutcracker" that we did. You know, it was, I think there's a lot of passion, I think in the, the creative process that you and I enjoy versus, you know, performing is a great thing. And that's, that's your way of sharing it. I think that's that term, share, is more key to, to not being locked up as an artist and not being paralyzed as an artist because when you start thinking of it as a competition, then you start worrying about what are other people gonna think, "Is this good enough?" And, and I've been in those places where artistically I've had this giant block and, how do you work past that? You know, it's, for me as a Christian, through prayer and listening to the Lord that He gives you that, that confidence and says, "You got this, you have everything, the gift, the gifts that I've given you. Don't don't let these things beat you up. Don't slow down."

[00:36:19] A friend of mine, we were talking about one of my sons that has high-functioning autism. And she had said, "I think God makes up each kid and gives them gifts. I've watched kids in my career get medicine to help calm them down. And it changed who they were. What if the gifts they were supposed to have are supposed to be there. And what if their strength, or their super power, is something that we change and alter their personality to make them fit into a system better?" And, I really respected what she said with that. WE, there, there are signs of people all over. I think Steven Spielberg is a huge one. I believe he has dyslexia. And look at the amazing things that he's done with what people would say is something that's crippling, but he found ways artistically to, to bring out that, that super power. And, it's the same with, with my son, Timmy, how he, he sees the world differently and I really appreciate seeing the world through his eyes because, yeah, he, he just has this really interesting way and there, there is no fear in trying stuff. He hasn't gotten caught up in how things are supposed to be, which I think is key to an artist.

[00:37:54]Even Giorgio Moroder, the godfather of electronic dance music, had stated in the song with daft punk called "Giorgio by Moroder," you know, he talks about as experimental process. If, if you haven't heard that song, it's, it's a pretty cool song to listen to. It's was definitely influential and I've played it to my students, through the years just to let them know, 'cause he was from a small town and he didn't think that he had a chance, but he started tinkering around with a synthesizer. And I want to say he said something about the concept of harmony and then just, you know, you have a certain amount of rules, but how do you break through those rules? You know, if somebody is telling you this is the way it has to be, then some people don't question why they just, they just follow that instead of asking that important question.

[00:38:57] Well, why, and some of us out there, you know, your artists, your engineers, your creative people, that's what it is, at the root, is trying to unlock the creativity in people in general. Yeah, that's, it's, one of those things that took me a while to understand that. And I want to say Hanan Misko, he had said, you know, as an educator, that it's important to him as an educator to help unlock those, those hidden superpowers of those talents, you know, to enhance it. I think that's additionally, what I think about with partnering and marriage. I know it's like all different kinds of things that come at you, but, you know, that the person that you marry, you know, you should enhance each other's lives. And I feel like that's how dance partnering is artistically, that we're enhancing the audience's experience through the partnering process. And, rolling back to educators, that's it's not, telling these young fertile minds, this is the only way to do something. It's, it's hard to just sit there even as a parent, when you ask your kids to do something, it's better to give them a little wiggle room and see where they take something.

[00:40:36] Instead of what we usually do is we, as parents become impatient and we go, "Oh, just give me that. Let me, let me do that for you," instead of how maybe you and I grew up, it was, it was different. And our parents did give us that freedom to make mistakes, which rolls into a Bob Ross saying, " There are no mistakes. We just have happy accidents." And yes. Yeah. I mean, that's how you and I have even fiddled with the dance process, but you know, the kids' discovery process artistically to grow, or I say artistically, I really creatively because, because if you have creativity, I think that's actually a more marketable skill. With creativity, you can apply that to mathematics, to the language arts, to dance, to other forms of art and just finding different ways, whether it's to get to the same point or to have, you know, mold and sculpt and, and unlock something new.

[00:41:50] That's a story that my dad had told me, about air conditioning and its invention. And I, I don't know if you were familiar with it or not, but it was these guys that wanted to get the, the air conditioned. The humidity level would fluctuate and they were printing stuff. And so when it was laying down the print, I want to say it had to go through three times and it was, you know, something like blue, red, and yellow, or, something along those lines, the different colors. And so it had to be perfectly lined up well. In between the humidity might change and cause the paper to expand. And now the ink doesn't line up. So they figured out how to condition that air to make it very even, and the by-product was what you and I are comfortable with with air conditioning in the summertime. And have a really happy accident. Wow. Yeah. I have cooler temperatures inside your house in the, in the heat of the summer.

[00:43:04]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. I, that's a great, that's the perfect illustration of a happy accident and how sometimes you just have to be creative and maybe try it a few different ways and keep tinkering away. And if, like you said, if you're, if you're creative and you're not putting yourself or someone else in a box and saying, "This is, there's one way, no other ways." Yeah, I really think it's when you start exploring that, that is where the magic happens and that is where these cool things get invented and, and, and everything. And all of that is an art form, kind of in and of itself. Well, that's great. Those are some really great insights and fantastic stories. So thank you, Joe, so much for sharing. I do have a couple of questions. I always like to ask my guests if you're up for that.

[00:43:53] Joe Pilgram: Alrighty.

[00:43:54] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:44:01]Joe Pilgram: Wow. Art could be so many different things. you know, for, for me, it's definitely passion. Whether it's, you know, I use art as a way to, to get my emotions out, to be able to dance it out. But other people as an art will sling paint or, you know, do different things. I believe that musician Sting, like the best songs that he wrote when he was with the police, he talked about, it was when it was a really bad time in his life, he and his wife were having problems and some of his best art came out at that moment. And I, I feel that, you know, art is definitely a, a human expression, that, that we all have.  I guess I look more at other artists for the guidance in that realm, that it's, you know, it should be something that's explored, that it's something you create. You have people that are, that are machinists that some create some pretty fascinating stuff. 3D printer guys, doing things with that, and I don't know if I know you asked me what, what I think it is. I might throw this little plug in here from Felicia Rashad and it was, she was talking about art and she said, "Children," and she said, "Before they write, they draw. Before they stand, they dance. Art is a human expression. It's a fundamental human expression." And so I, I guess I'd like to hop on her bandwagon with that.

[00:45:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Perfect. I've always loved that quote. It is, it is so true. It's so, yeah, fundamental is the right word. Okay, great. Well, and secondly, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:46:13] Joe Pilgram: I believe that as artists, we should hopefully be able to, when people see it, that it reflects whether it's the personal things going on with that person, or maybe it's things going on around them that, that, content shapes context, is it? No, I want to say it's the other way around that context shapes content. And a Rodney Mullen, professional skater that I've told you about several times that that's, what he talks about is when he sees, you're going out and he talks about how the environment, how can the environment change the very nature of what I do. And I think as artists, that's an ebb and flow ever changing. A lot of the times that as artists, I don't think we ever stand still. Do you?

[00:47:13] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I don't. I think I, in one form or another there's something, there's something. I don't think I do. Yeah.

[00:47:23] Joe Pilgram: Yeah. And like you, hope to find you hope to be content. I think that's what we strive for is to be content, you know, or definitely happy with something that we're sharing with the world that you're, you're putting out there. I think, you know, being, being content with it is know, a, a big thing with art. We can always nitpick and tear things, you know, make things better. We feel, but, it never seems like your work is done. You could come back two years later and look at the same piece that you did and feel differently about, you know, your, your concept of what it was based on. And, you and I have probably experienced this with choreographers that set something on you, and then they say, "Oh, so-and-so is coming back to restage this piece on everyone." And in your mind, as an individual artist, as a dancer, you think, "Oh, this'll be easy. I already know this piece inside of the house," and the choreographer comes in, and there's a lot that's changed.

[00:48:42] And, you know, to, to maybe finalize on that is, you know, you see different quotes around. And even at my work, one of my work buddies has a thing posted up that says something along the lines of "Perfection is the enemy of the good." Like, you can have something that's really good, but maybe not perfect, but to get something perfect, it's like, you're going to reduce morale. You can tear yourself up terribly, emotionally trying to get something 100% perfect. And finding that contentment and going, "Yeah, I think I'm, I'm okay with that."

[00:49:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree. I have a saying, a mantra for myself and tend to share it of "done is better than perfect." You know, excellence in everything, but ultimately done is better than perfect. You have to get, you have to allow yourself to, to do your best, and to do good and not be so obsessed with chasing perfection that it, it stops you. Perfection kills creativity too. Well, final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll define my terms a little bit. So inclusive referring to an artist who put something out into the world, whatever it is, and provides some context behind it, whether it's a title or show notes or, you know, just the inspiration or something. Versus exclusive referring to artists who put something out there, but don't provide any context. So it's exclusively, essentially up to the audience to kind of decide what they think.

[00:50:28] Joe Pilgram: You know, I, I guess I leave that up to the artist. I think there are moments where maybe I, I choreograph something and not really care because the art has to escape somehow because it gets bottled up in you. And I, I think a lot of artists feel that way, that when, when you're not creating art, it starts hurting other parts in your life. And so I think sometimes it's the artist is going to create something that they don't really care. It just has to get out. And then other times they might be a little bit more inclusive and try to somewhat steer the narrative, but not, not be too controlling with it. You know, just giving a little context clues here and there. Yeah, sometimes you, you see pieces of art that actually--I'll give you an example.

[00:51:36] I, I'd choreographed a piece called "Battlefield for the Mind," but I didn't get it typed up properly. And it came out as "Battlefield of the Mind.? And that one word changed how people interpreted the dance. Because what I was trying to convey was "Battlefield for the Mind" would be controlling people, whether it's through the media or other avenues. But when one of the students that I had came up and asked me. She watched the show and she said, "Oh, I love that piece. What was it about?" and I said,"What did, what did you take from it? What, how did you apply it to yourself?" And she said, "You know, I've been dealing with depression. And for me it was a bunch of different voices and what was going to survive." And I actually loved her interpretation of that,  and that she was able to apply it to herself in that fashion. And so I think both have valid merits, inclusive and exclusive for, for what they are.

[00:53:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That makes absolute sense. So, well, again, thank you so much, Joe, for being a part of this podcast and for sharing your art with the world. Obviously I'm biased. I'm really thankful that you are a dancer and we do get to dance and create together. But, you know, you have many avenues for that and I just appreciate that you do, and speaking of, I know this is kind of a weird time of life for everybody, but under more normal circumstances, you are a ballroom instructor. Is there any way for anyone who's interested in maybe taking lessons with you that they could at least keep in touch when you do resume?

[00:53:43] Joe Pilgram: Yes. Yeah, actually, at this moment, I'm, I'm not teaching obviously with the lockdown that, but if people would like to contact and ask me about dance when ballroom classes would start up, I teach more along the lines of social dance versus choreographed. So it's a, I look at that like Legos or any kind of construction material or scrapbooking material that, that you can have different materials and piece them together in different ways, multiple times. It doesn't have to be the same way you piece it together every time. But, and so with social dance, that's how it is. And, and I teach genuine lead and follow. But people could contact me either by finding my website, which is stjoeballroom.com. And that's STJOEBALLROOM.COM or you can call my, my work phone for the ballroom classes and it's area code (816) 265-1444.

[00:54:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yes. Well, and if anyone is in the market for ballroom instruction, I have to say, Joe is a really, really fun teacher. So he's good at making everyone feel comfortable, even if this is your very first time. And, yeah, there will definitely be a lot of, a lot of laughter and giggles and it'll, it'll be good. Well, thank you again so much, Joe. I really, really appreciate you being here today and, Yeah, I appreciate all that you contribute.

[00:55:22] Joe Pilgram: Thanks. Thanks for having me.

[00:55:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who's listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share it with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:55:39]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Debbie Dinneen! Debbie is the owner of Seasonal People who sculpts and creates original Santas for retail sales and special orders. Her background, growing up in Orange County, CA, plays a significant role in her artistic journey and endeavours, and she delights us with tales of her adventures. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of one of Debbie's original creations!)

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Episode 33 - Debbie Dinneen

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very excited to have my mother-in-law on the show today. Her name is Debbie Dinneen, and she is an incredible artist and has wonderful, amazing stories to share from her journey through all sorts of different kinds of art. And Debbie, thank you so much for being here. I'm just so excited to have you.

[00:01:02] Debbie Dinneen: I'm happy to be here. This should be fun.

[00:01:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yes. Well, would you mind sharing, to start, sort of your background , maybe kind of your journey of, of how you started dabbling in different art forms, and yeah, maybe what you're up to now too?

[00:01:20] Debbie Dinneen: It, you know, it really is truly a journey. I, I credit a lot of my interests to being raised in Orange County, California, where you're really bombarded with the arts, visual arts, theater, just so many great avenues. And it's tough to pick just one. I started it with a deep interest in theater, and even when I was young, I wanted to be a choreographer. That didn't happen. But I really enjoyed street theater with the Renaissance festivals. I had a lot of exposure to Disney artists and artists from all different areas and walks of life. So I really appreciate having had the opportunity to be raised there. Later in life, I , just before I moved to Kansas, I was working, making tissue heart valves from pigs' heart valves.

[00:02:21] And I still use many of those tools today in my sculpting and Santa making. So that's just one more tool that I had to be able to transfer and apply to sculpting. I went to JOCO [Johnson County Community College] out here for some pottery classes. I was a very poor potter and found myself making odd little things instead. And I had children at home and decided that I was going to start doing sculpting and trying to sell them at some local craft fairs. I started with cave men. One of my favorite pieces was a cave man on a fossilized rock  gritting his teeth with a thorn in his foot. I loved all the natural aspect and using natural fibers and things that we just find in our environment. Later, I decided that I really wanted to express joy and laughter and do it through my art. And I had done it at the Renaissance Festival, creating characters like the Rat Lady, and I really wanted it to come through my art. That's when I decided to start sculpting and making Santas . I use a lot of natural fibers and it just lent well to what I wanted to portray. I noticed that a lot of the Santas available were, were angry looking and I wanted some that looked more fun-- silly if you will, happy. So that's the direction I went.

[00:04:14] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I love that it was about celebrating joy and laughter and creating these-- they're amazing, you definitely have to go check out her website and see them , hopefully get one for yourself. Because the detail in these Santas is just incredible and you can definitely see the joy come out. They're so fun. Yeah.

[00:04:42] Debbie Dinneen: I, I like to make action figures, I call them . For example, Santas sledding on their bellies and their beards blowing back in the wind. That's one of my favorites . Santas making wine in half barrels and holding their wine glasses up, stomping grapes with their feet full of, of the wine. It's just fun things. Things that people will want to put around their home during the holiday season that will bring them joy. And happy Santa is a lot more fun than a grumpy one.

[00:05:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, amen to that. Well, and I am, I know because I have the privilege of owning some and also have seen a lot of your work. But one of the things that I think is so amazing about what you do is the level of care and attention to detail. So it's like you mentioned, incorporating natural fibers and things like that. But I know that you literally import specific things when you're looking for it. So can you talk about maybe how, how do you decide, or how did you come to, you know," this is my standard of quality that I infused in this?"

[00:06:00] Debbie Dinneen: That kind of came along with my first experience in retail. And I was actually supplying Santas to what used to be called Everyday's a Holiday at Crown Center. And the gentleman that owned the store had such a good eye. And anytime I make a Santa-- I can only actually remember feeling like this is perhaps a perfect piece and that rarely happens if you're an artist, 'cause we're always striving for perfection and we oftentimes don't feel that we have met that. So, and this man had the ability to spot exactly the same thing that I had a problem with with my Santas. It was uncanny and it was disturbing as well. So I, it really bugged me, but that, that taught me. And in time I learned, you know, if, if my Santas are going to be in a high quality retail environment, I need to meet that challenge. So I do import pelts from, from Tibet , China . I also use , I buy a lot of vintage coats and I learned how to work with the pelts and the fur to use them and incorporate them with my Santas. It's, it's kind of exciting because you get to, because it's, it's a lot of different mediums that you use, not just the clay.

[00:07:34]So I get to use a lot of different fabrics' fibers, and then I incorporate with the Santa. So I get to learn other little side skills like embroidery, sewing, of course.  I, oftentimes my husband would make sleds, sleighs, and help me. He helped me learn how to make the Santa stand independently, which it's a tricky thing and you have to make sure that everything is balanced well, so the Santa remained standing at all times. So it, it really has been a learning experience. And you just keep, you just don't give up. And the first part was learning to sculpt. I did have the ability to see three dimensionally. It's a skill I needed making the tissue heart valves.  It, it lends well to sculpting. And each, with each Santa, you really do learn something, or you and or you go, "Oops. I remember now." And you change your direction or step it up and make it a little bit different. It's, it is really truly a journey of learning.

[00:08:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, all these complementary skillsets then that are completely art-related, but that you've kind of acquired along the way. That's really neat.

[00:09:03]Debbie Dinneen:  I really enjoy going to the store and being outside or inside the store. And I bring clay with me and I really enjoy having the kids come up and I have extra tools for them and some clay and they try their hand at it and they, they love it. And they're excited by it. That's one of my favorite things to do.

[00:09:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, how fun! Yeah, I'm sure they are so delighted by it. So when you're creating a new work, is it often an inspiration that comes from finding, you know, what ends up being a cute little prop or accessory in your finished creation? Or does it happen where it's maybe more commissioned, someone says, "I'm looking for this type of Santa."

[00:09:54] Debbie Dinneen: You know, it's interesting that you ask that. I just completed a piece for a local Kansas City barbecue , Rosedale Barbecue in Kansas City. And it was a piece of , the granddaughter. The, the grandfather started it like 81 years ago, and the granddaughter wanted a piece to honor her grandfather. And it was a very emotional thing for her. She really loves her, loved her grandpa. So I ended up making a smoker out of, I think it was 950 bricks , little bricks and then side pieces, their sign , and the Santa, instead of sculpting just a Santa, I sculpted her, her grandfather from pictures that she supplied me. So that I that's my favorite kind of thing to do, because if I, if it's something so special to them, then I'm so much more invested.

[00:10:58] Then there's times when I know, for example, that people really enjoy the wine Santas and I enjoy making them because it makes people laugh and it's funny, and it's something that they haven't seen before. It, inspiration can even come --I may find one little antique or vintage item that is special and I, and I then will build a whole Santa around that. And , and if they tell a story by visually I, I, my that's part of my goal as well. So anything you add to it gives it more depth and meaning, and I love doing a special order Santas simply because, you know, this person is invested in it, and you work so hard to make them feel happy about the finished product.

[00:11:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. And so when you're going about creating, especially these special works, do you always go in a certain order when you're creating your Santas, or is it kind of, you know, maybe one day you, you feel like sewing, so you'll do the coat. And then the next day, you know, you're ready to sculpt or does it, does it kind of flow like that? Do you have a, or is it very specific?

[00:12:24] Debbie Dinneen: You know, that's a really good question because many pieces are really different. Like when I took on this challenge of the Rosedale Barbecue Santa, I felt like the greatest challenge for me was going to be making the smoker. And it was a challenge. But it turned out really well. So I felt really good about it, but I felt like I had to do that before sculpting his head and his hands. And I think because I knew for me it was something I had not done before. And, and I knew it would be the most challenging thing for me. So yeah, in that case, I did it that way. And then you, you basically, you build them from the ground up.

[00:13:16] So for example, the wine Santas, I would start with the wine barrel , fill it with materials to keep it weighted at the bottom, then put layers of the grapes and then a layer of liquid glass paint to make it look wet. And already I've got a wire running up through the bottom of it, so the Santa can be built onto that wire armature. And so I will build that up and I, I always have to remember to get the pants on over that wire before I go any further, or then you have a Santa with no pants. So when that thinks that piece needs to be built in a specific order, so they're all a little bit different. And each one presents their own challenge. Even if they're just sitting, you have to make sure that they can sit and stay seated in an upright position. So these are all little tricks of the trade that you learn along the way.

[00:14:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I know that when you create your Santas, they each come with a very personalized card. And so what do you share on those cards? Is it, is it the different things that are unique to it, or how does that?

[00:14:40] Debbie Dinneen: That is, is exactly right. I try to take the time to write what special items I have incorporated into the piece. I'm like, if I had used Mongolian lamb's wool or mink from a vintage coat I like to, or bridal satin, I use a lot-- I like to let people know what special things go into them--or the crystal eyeballs. And I make their own teeth myself. I make their tongues and their tonsils and my Santas are really known for their open mouth smiles. And that's what makes them look so good.

[00:15:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I love these Santas. They're so, they're so fun. They're so whimsical and yeah. So I'm kind of curious because, all right, 'cause you'd mentioned a couple of times, you know, your, your actual job experience back in California, like you said, helps you with your sculpting, what would turn into your sculpting skills. But I'm curious, have you always had a really steady hand? 'Cause I would think that with the intricacies that you were working with and that you still do, that would be challenging. Like I, I'm sure I wouldn't be successful at that.

[00:16:00] Debbie Dinneen: You know, it's funny. I didn't feel like I had a lot of great motor skills that way, small motor skills. But once I had done that job for the lab , and most of our work was done under a microscope, and they were the first tissue heart valve made from pigs. Heart valves is pretty delicate work. And I think that really helped tune and hone my physical skills . Even an example is, we would use a blanket stitch on the stent, which we put the valve in. We'd use a blanket stitch, which of course, you know, you use when you sew, so the two together working with small things, small tools, being able to see in three dimensions , it all kind of came together and was helpful for me. And then I think perhaps overexposure to Disneyland Disney artists. My, my maid of honor at my wedding was a Disney artist. As a matter of fact, I brought her there to, to apply for the job myself and she cartooned for them for years. So, I and, and wanting things to just be happy and full of joy. That's what I wanted to portray through my Santas. And I think I really do think my exposure to Disneyland and being raised in Orange County probably played a big role in that.

[00:17:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I'm sure that it did.

[00:17:40]Debbie Dinneen: We were kind of a humorous family, and we love theater and entertain. It's just really a fortunate, fortunate thing I think to be, to be around. And we've just always been silly. What can I say?

[00:17:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Well, I can attest to that and I love it. Yeah. So, okay. So I know that at one point in time, you had an opportunity to maybe-- and please correct me if any of the details are wrong-- but had an opportunity to maybe take your Santas and mass produce them. And you ended up deciding against that. Can you speak to that? I'm just really, that is a, that was a huge, bold step, which I, you know, have totally respect, but it's, I'd love to hear about that. 

[00:18:32] Debbie Dinneen: The decision I made was simply because it's a really tough thing for a manufacturer to replicate exactly your piece. And in most cases, If you try that, it's not done well enough. There's a local company here in Kansas City that did the best job ever on somebody else's Santas. And I would have to have had that standard as well. That opportunity never occurred, but most of the reproductions are done in China and you don't have a lot of control, and the quality is never as good as what you can do yourself. So I decided that I'm better off staying small-scale and doing what I really love and being able to do whatever I want. It, there's a lot to be said for working independently and not having to you know, like quibble with somebody--how many buttons you can have on the Santa's coat or or what colors. And so for me, the creative process is making each one exactly the way I want it. Unless of course it's a special order. Then I collaborate.' I love to take people's ideas in that case. And oftentimes they'll bring me childhood toys of theirs or their children's toys or grandparents' pictures , all kinds of things, so that I've, over the years, incorporated into their special order Santa. And that that's really a fun thing. It's all about being able to have the freedom to create and make people happy with the results.

[00:20:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think you're absolutely right. You touched on the fact that, you know, it could be what maybe they would consider to be a small detail, like the number of buttons, but to you there's intention and there's purpose behind that. So it makes complete sense that, you know, as an artist, you want to continue to feel very proud of what you create, and so I just want to circle back to the Renaissance Festival because I, I know you spent years actually doing that and you talk about your love of theater and performing, and I know you and your husband had a whole set of very well-known characters. Do you want to share more about some stories from that?

[00:21:18] Debbie Dinneen: Sure. I created, I got exposed to the Renaissance Festivals in California and, and there did a jester, and that was my original character. And then moved to Kansas and immediately got involved with the festival out here, which at the time was a benefit for the Kansas City Art Institute. And lots of the Hallmark artists were involved. We had great times. I created a character called the Rat Lady. Because somebody told me I couldn't, and what I did was I got a dozen dead rats from KU Med Center, and they were donated to me, and I had them mummified. And the Rat Lady was a mad woman who believed she protected people from the plague by having them kiss the dead rat on the lips. Well, these were pretty disgusting, but they were safe and men all over the Kansas City area were kissing these rats on the lips. It was just awful, but I had a good time doing it. I would say, I would say after they kissed him on the lips, I told them it would help protect them from the plague.

[00:22:29] The irony is of course that the fleas on the rats actually helped spread the plague and they would come off the merchant ships. And that's one of the ways that the plague was spread so widely, but I would say, "Oh, look, his lips have brought it off his face." And the, the wives would always grab their husbands and drag them off. It was hilarious. And then Tim, my wonderful husband, is very kind of quiet and shy. And so he created a character, the Kissing Beggar and he held a sign, "Kisses: One Penny" and, and he would actually sell kisses for a penny. People, husbands would give him a penny or a dollar and just go, go say, "Go kiss my wife." And the wives would run, but they enjoyed getting their picture taken with Tim. So it became a family event. Even our son as a small child and a baby was out at the festival in costume. I performed in California, Texas, and Kansas City. And It was after that, that I started doing Santas.

[00:23:40]Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Do you ever miss those days and would you ever consider going back and doing it again?

[00:23:46] Debbie Dinneen: You know, I kind of miss it. I remember some of my memories were going to sleep at night, hearing people, screaming, "Rat Lady, Rat Lady." It got to the point that I couldn't hide and eat lunch because somebody wanted me to come out to get a picture. I had a whole string of dead rats. I had several upon my body. I wore--this is really bad--but I would catch flies in jars, freeze them for a couple of minutes, stick them on my face with spirit gum. Spirit gum is used to put on beards, mustaches, that sort of thing. Very tacky. I get the fly out of the freezer, put it on my face. It would warm up and wake up and be buzzing and flapping. And so that made people wonder, "how does she do that?" One man even turned around and slapped me in the face. He was, he was panicked because he saw these flies on my face. I usually had at least four. And, and I thought, "Hey, he slapped me!" It was, it was hilarious. It was the oddest reaction that I'd gotten. But my word, yeah, I got, I was removed from the top of the Crown by security. I was doing a radio show. And that was, it was the only time I've ever been removed from somewhere. But you know, when you're in rags and you look dirty and you have rats , it's really dubious. So it was appropriate.

[00:25:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes.

[00:25:20] Debbie Dinneen: I did a lot of the local TV and radio here, and enjoy enjoyed doing that as well, and schools, personal appearances at schools. So switching gears to doing Santas was really good for, for my family. And for me , generated extra income. I didn't have to drag my kids out in all kinds of weather. So it was a really good transition. And I still do that to this day. My Santas are at Crown Center in Occasions. And believe it or not, it was the first store I started out in, and it was Everyday's a Holiday then. It's Occasions now on the second floor . I've sold my Santas for a few years down at Big Cedar Lodge in Branson. I'm just in one store now. And I do sell directly from my website, which is seasonalpeople.com. So I'm still making them and I still enjoy it.

[00:26:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I just am curious: are there any stories that come to your mind as sort of, you know, either funny things that happened related to the arts or heartwarming or something that kind of has stuck in your memory as a moment to remember, because you just want to hold on to that encounter with art?

[00:26:51] Debbie Dinneen: You know, there have been some moments. I was in selling at a store, in a store on the Plaza and it was just heartwarming to see people coming in and enjoying just looking at them, whether they bought them or not. And just hearing the nice comments and seeing that the kids that just love the Santas, and to me being there and getting to see people's reactions is really fun. There is one time , the lady didn't know that I was in the store and I was kind of behind something. I, I heard her say, "Oh my God, that is hideous. I would never have one of those in my house." I laughed so hard! And I appreciated hearing that reaction because some people find sculpture or doll-like sculptures kind of scary. So to hear her make that comment, and it just tickled me to death. Than I, I never said to her, "Oh, I made that," because I didn't want her to feel bad, but you know, right. This goes to show you: everybody has a different idea or thoughts on what a Santa should be, and some I do are very traditional. I actually got a lot of reaction from a Santa that I do that is drunk and he's on his back. He's got a bag with alcohol in it. He has a gum, chewed gum on the bottom of his shoe that he stepped on and a, a wrapper from, or a receipt from the liquor store, and his tongue is hanging out. And he's just flat on his back and it's actually a pretty cute piece, but people really would find that funny too.   That's a special piece and I like to see people's reactions with that.

[00:28:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And how cool to be able to witness somebody else witnessing your art and hear their reactions. Oh my word, that one lady.

[00:29:00] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, most of the time it's really, really complimentary. When I heard that, I could not help but laugh, and I didn't want her to feel bad. So I went around this area where she couldn't see me to do my laughing. And it, it's good because you know what you don't ever want to get too arrogant as an artist. You don't ever want to think your stuff is the best, in my opinion. So it's good to hear that kind of honest response and it keeps you in your place. You know what I mean? So, yeah. That's all part of it and I would never think that mine is the best or that mine are perfect. Like I said, in all these years, I've only done like one that I couldn't find fault with. I've made a lot of Santas over the years, so, you know, it's-- I don't know if it's an artist thing, where we just don't feel we're ever good enough--but I don't ever want to make that mistake of feeling that I'm superior because  I think you can get in trouble that way. You've always got to be hungry and keep trying.

[00:30:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Good advice. Well, and I think that is so important because I think as artists, we are striving for excellence, and perfection is just not something that can be reached in art, is what I've decided. I agree because it's always subjective too, like you probably are very proud of the work.   Should be very proud of the work that you create because you do put your, you put yourself in your art and your soul into creating these beautiful works of art, but ultimately somebody can look at it and go, "Oh yeah, that's not for me. You know? And same with every other kind of art."

[00:30:53] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. It is subjective. And I understand that and appreciate it. And, you know, it makes me feel just fine if they don't like it. So, but that was the wildest response I think that I've gotten. Most people see them and they laugh and they say sweet things. If they, if I'm there, the store oftentimes will tell me what customers have to say and it's so-- in these later years, it's usually very positive. In the younger years, I look back at my early work and I think 'uggh." So I sure get it if a customer would think that as well. But it's a learning curve, just like with anything, practice, you just keep practicing. And sometimes things just go wrong. Sometimes I glue my fingers together with super glue. You know what I mean? Like it's like, wow, I've been doing this with years for years. I can't, what did I just do? I glued my fingers together now, how do I get out of this? You know, it can be anything. And mainly for me, because I work with so many different glues , paints for so many different things. There are so many opportunities for something to go wrong along the process.

[00:32:15]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Well, and I'm curious, have you ever gotten to a point-- I think as an artist, maybe we've all gotten here at some point--but gotten to a point where you're just so frustrated and fed up with what you're trying to do, that you just like scrap it and start again?

[00:32:31]Debbie Dinneen: You know I usually can save myself, but there are some things that I do I've had to scrap because that I was trying to make like a piece to go with it, a prop, whatever. Yeah. I've scrapped a few things. Normally I can keep working on it to get it done. Sometimes I have to walk away from it for a day, and come back to it. That's rare these days. I usually just try to keep hammering through until I get what I want. But if the piece is really intense, like this recent one I did, I worked on it for a whole week longer than anticipated because I didn't, I hadn't gotten to the point I needed to yet.

[00:33:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, you've mentioned you have lots of great little tidbits of advice that have kind of been scattered throughout, but if there were somebody who was kind of just starting out and thinking about maybe wanting to pursue an artistic endeavor, what kind of advice would you have for that person?

[00:33:40] Debbie Dinneen: Never give up. It's that simple. You know, so many of us will pick up a ball of clay because we'll be, we'll get an opportunity, or we'll pick up a paint brush. If they continue on and they don't give up, they're going to end up being successful in getting to the point where they like the results.

[00:34:02]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, that's really great advice. And I absolutely agree. You know, you mentioned some of your early work, you thought, "Ooh." Well now, you know, now you think, "Oh man, I could do so much better," but every artist is like that. And so I think your advice is so spot on because, I looked back at some of the pieces that I created back in the beginning and go, "Ooh, well, I've come a long way."

[00:34:27] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, that's right. That's right. And then there's a middle point too. If I see a Santa that is more recent, it's like looking at the, the baby you made. It's like, "Oh, I remember that one." And you, you remember it fondly. But the real early stuff is for me is a little dubious, but you know what, it's a learning curve and we all have to start somewhere.

[00:34:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Amen to that. Absolutely. I actually have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests, completely subjective. Is that all right with you?

[00:35:02] Debbie Dinneen: Sure.

[00:35:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:35:11] Debbie Dinneen: Oh boy, to me, first thing that I think of is anything visual, but you know, art encompasses so much, you know, music, theater, dance. Art is everywhere. Art is when I look out my back door and I see birds on my bird feeder. We're just surrounded. That's how I feel about it.

[00:35:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. I agree. Okay!

[00:35:42] Debbie Dinneen: And if you can, if you can work with it, or work with things that are around you and available to you and create more art, that's super cool to me.

[00:35:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Perfect. Well, and then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:35:59]Debbie Dinneen: Keep an open mind and try, just keep trying and try anything.  And then, teach if you can, if you have the opportunity.

[00:36:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's a great answer. I have yet to hear that. That is, that is a great answer.

[00:36:17] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah. Information share. And for the people coming behind you.

[00:36:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Perfect. And then my final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll share what I mean by that. So inclusive referring to an artist who puts his or her art out there and provides some context behind it, whether it's, you know, program notes or a title or the inspiration or something to kind of give a little bit more background. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't necessarily provide any context so it's completely up to the viewer or participant to decide how they interpret it.

[00:37:06] Debbie Dinneen: In, in my particular situation, I think inclusive and which is why I put information on my cards. But every art is different and every artist is different. They have to make their own choices.

[00:37:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Perfect. Well, first of all, Debbie, thank you so very much for joining us today. I really, really appreciate it so much. And I have to say to anyone who's interested in these Santas, please, please go and check out her website because they're just stunning. And do you mind repeating what that was again?

[00:37:48] Debbie Dinneen: Not at all, Lindsey,  seasonalpeople.com. It's pretty easy.

[00:37:53]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. And we'll provide a link as well. And I also just want to say on a personal level, of course, I have had the privilege of getting to see a lot of your work and hear the stories of the Renaissance Festival and so many things. But I have to say also thank you for incorporating art into your life and sharing that with your kids. Obviously I have personally benefited from that because Kevin grew up participating in the arts, which then he was super interested in helping to continue, participating in them with me. And so that's really special.

[00:38:32]Debbie Dinneen:  And he's very creative as well, and that, you know what, I'm grateful that we were able to pass that down and share it. It's, I'm totally grateful about that. And then we do still with our grandchildren as well.

[00:38:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, and it's just one of those things that's, that is so much a part of you and your experience with art and even how you answered the question about the, the role of, of passing down, of teaching the next generation, essentially. So yeah, that's really important. Yeah. Thank you. Well, thank you again so much, like I said, for being here and thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you'd share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:30] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:39:39]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told, for listening to the episodes and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you. I do the whole podcasts myself, from the interviews themselves to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment. And then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast, even very small monthly donation, like $5 a month would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I've set up a PayPal account that you can access through the Artfully Told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making our monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors, so everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day, and I'll catch you next time.