Artfully Told

In this episode, I welcome Robyn Jamison! Robyn is a professional artist who is on a mission to share art with the world in a way that is understandable and relatable. She is in the process of writing a new book, "The Magic of Modern Art," and shares about her own artistic journey and what experiences led her to her life's mission. (Fun fact: the cover art of this episode is Robyn's own work, entitled "Red Robyn," which was originally a self-portrait painted in oil!)

Get in touch with Robyn Jamison: www.robynjamison.com | [email protected] | www.instagram.com/robyns.modern.art.magic 

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Episode 22 - Robyn Jamison

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06]Krista:  I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it, and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23]Elna:  Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told, and my name is Lindsey and I am so excited to share with you today. I have a wonderful guest. Her name is Robyn Jamison. And she has a true heart for art and for expanding the reach of art to people who might not otherwise have participated in it. And she just has so many great insights to share. She's an artist herself. She has an amazing career. And thank you, Robyn, so much for being here today.

[00:01:04] Robyn Jameson: Lindsey, thank you. It's my pleasure, totally.

[00:01:08]Lindsey Dinneen: Wonderful. Well, if you don't mind, I'd love to start just by learning a little bit about you. Maybe your background, how you got into art and yeah, just a little bit more about you!

[00:01:19] Robyn Jameson: Thank you. Well, it really it's more like art got into me than I got into art. I've been an artist all my life. When other kids were playing with dolls and firetrucks and balls-- I mean, I did some of that--but mostly you'd find me huddled over the floor, painting or drawing and making things. So I've always, I've always known I was an artist or that I am an artist. And I was very, very fortunate in having parents who supported that, who supported my love of the arts. I dance, I play piano. I started as a little kid. I played violin, which I hated. So I played what I always wanted to play was the piano, but I demanded dancing lessons when I was three. And, in fact dancing and art and visual art were neck-and-neck in terms of what I love the best. And I realized that it was the most practical thing I've ever done as a young person was I realized that as a dancer, my career depended on other people. I mean, that's true of visual art as well, but I would have to be part of a, a dance company.

[00:02:38] Somebody would have to hire me, or I would have to start my own, and that after a certain age, I probably would be teaching, and I do love teaching, but with art, I knew that I could do it as long as I, my arms would move and my head had eyes to see. So I actually  have continued to dance all my life, but I made my career as an artist. I did art so my parents gave me lots of extra art courses, as well as supporting me in going to art school when I was old enough to go to college. And then later I got my master's degree It was my parents really pushed me to get a degree in art education rather than just a straight visual art degree.

[00:03:26] And at the time I was not pleased about that, but looking back, it was really a gift in disguise, in that when you get a degree in art education, you have to take classes in every kind of art making: weaving, jewelry making, printmaking, everything, which I probably wouldn't have done. So it exposed me to different mediums and had me see what I really came out loving the best. And I've really always been a two-dimensional artist. My work is multimedia. I've done video and sculpture, included three-dimensional aspects to my work, but even when I've done sculpture, it's been pretty much frontal. In my twenties, I had a job. I went through the whole fear of being a starving artist thing that so many people go through and some people never get past, unfortunately. Until I did a really transformational program, but so I, I had a job as a recreation instructor for the city of Fort Worth. And so I had all kinds of classes to teach. I taught piano lessons for the elderly in groups, people who had always wanted to play piano and never had. I taught ceramics for the blind, square dancing for mentally disabled people. All kinds of art, oh, macrame.

[00:04:59]That's interesting as well as other of kinds of dancing. So, and of course, art classes too. And when I did the ceramic classes, they were molded, they were slips. It's called slipcast ceramics. You made, you have a mold and you pour this liquified clay in it. And it starts to dry and it hardens around the edges. And then you can pull the mold off and then you have this shape and you paint it. You paint it with glazes and I hated it. I just hated it. They were, it was, oh gosh, turkey Thanksgiving platters. And, you know, just cute things that were not in line with my taste, but you know this as an artist, I'm sure that when you're immersed in any medium, even if it's something that you didn't choose, you find a way to work with it.

[00:05:59] So after a while I started doing these slipcast pieces and then I would carve on them and, and I started doing these really fun whimsical things. Like they would have, I would do like a night sky with clouds and then carve in rainbows and hearts and all kinds of funny things like that. And people loved them.  I created a business for myself of doing one-of-a-kind slip casts, ceramics, and I started making my own molds and I did that for 12 years.  By the way, I did pins and earrings and stuff to have those little like parrots and hearts with wings and moons with each one had a different face and it was really fun. And then I got into more serious work with where I developed my own method of airbrushing underglazes and using wax to resist where the underglaze went, and then firing off the wax and doing it again, and then firing off the wax and doing it again.

[00:07:02] And I came out with these layered images. They were really more than being traditional ceramics, they were paintings on ceramic and it was really successful. I had them in galleries and they were by commission. I also did jewelry, like these big neck pieces, that multi-pieces of ceramic and big wall hanging things and, and really had a lot of fun with that. And a time came when I started having the itch to do something else and I had always wanted to get my master's degree. I had this-- in my family education was a high priority and I wanted to have the highest degree possible. Plus here's the thing. I was married to an art dealer and yeah, it was good. Yeah. It was really great. He sold all my work. I mean, it was really great in that respect. And we would go to art openings and meet artists and be around artists all the time.

[00:08:01] And at the time I was in Dallas and I started to notice that the people, some people we talked to were saying things about the art that went over my head. I knew they were --it wasn't baloney that they were saying, it was something valid, but I didn't quite grasp it. And I, and I started to ask people who spoke that way about their education, and just about every one of them had a master's degree in art. So I thought, "Yeah, well there's some gold there." You know, not only do I want to be as highly educated as I can in my field, but I also want whatever that is, that they were saying that I wasn't saying. And it is what happened. And when I went back to graduate school, I started out in sculpture because my whole portfolio at that point was ceramics and they wouldn't put me in the painting program. And then later I switched over to painting, which really painting and drawing, which again, it's two-dimensional. It's really what I'm best at and what I love the most to do. So I got my masters in fine art and I got what I was looking for in that respect.

[00:09:12] And while I was in graduate school, I also had the great luck to stumble into an environment that opened up the direction of my work in an unexpected way. And always before that, I was kind of all over the place. I hadn't chosen a direction, really. I could do anything. I could, I could paint all different styles. I could paint all different kinds of subject matter. Never, never really traditional, were more forward-thinking, but I hadn't really got my own thing going, and friends of mine owned a mannequin factory. And I thought that sounded really interesting.  They agreed to let me come and look at their mannequins, to come visit their mannequin factory. They were very lifelike mannequins. They had facial expressions that had expressed mostly kind of somber. And they were kind of creepy in a really interesting way. And I, and I just became enamored of them. And I asked the people if I could come and do photographs, so I came more than one time and spent like a whole day lighting them different ways and putting it together different ways and taking photographs of these mannequins.

[00:10:36] And they became the basis for my work for quite a while. So I started doing mannequins and what fascinated me about the mannequins besides that they were so interesting visually, and also that I always have loved the human figure but I didn't want to just do figure drawings or figure paintings that weren't anything else. What fascinated me about them was that they reminded me of the fact that we tend to attribute human characteristics to things that aren't actually people, like to our pets and to dolls and to different inanimate objects, we'll go, "Oh, that looks like such a happy doll" or, "Oh, it looks so sad."

[00:11:17]And yet we tend to also objectify each other. This is a little bit of a heavy, heavy topic, but if you look at, for the longest time, we didn't operate in our world like people across the globe were the same as us. We would hear about starvation and not necessarily think of it like someone close to us. Like we wouldn't necessarily feel responsible for helping. And I think that's a function of objectifying people that are either different from us or far from us. And I wanted to talk about that in my artwork. So that's part of what I was doing with the mannequins, is pointing at that. And before I left graduate school, I did my graduate thesis of work and I actually used real women and portrayed them as if they were inanimate objects. I made them like mannequins and did a project. And I did a project where I had, there were four women, all of different ages, different heights and builds. And, I did a charcoal drawing that ended up encased in an aluminum frame that I made myself, to look encased, and they were black, all black and white, no color.

[00:12:43] And they were encased and they weren't. And they were sitting to represent that they weren't really empowered. And then I did a painting of each one and on the painting, the women, each woman was standing. And a portion of the interview I did with the woman was transcribed on the painting and there were four of them. And they were legible to different degrees. So I always provide the actual transcript and it was, and then the video took the interviews that I did and had them edited down into kind of bullets. Like "he always talked about me this way," and it was all about relationships. And, so then I made these a video of each woman. It was called "Women as Object."

[00:13:29] And then one more piece of it was actually a loan that I got from a man I know in Colorado. And he made this thing called a metaphaser. He's an inventor and he made this thing called a metaphaser and he let me use it in my show. So the metaphaser, or this thing on a stand, it looks like a a square box with mirrors and lights, and one person stands on one side of it, and another person stands on the other side of it, and the light starts flashing. And if the room is dark, you can see what you two would look like if you were combined. And what I did with it was I put a mannequin on one side, and then you could stand in front of it, line your face up with the mannequin face, and see what you would look like if you were a part mannequin.

[00:14:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That sounds so cool.

[00:14:22] Robyn Jameson: It was so fun. Yeah. And he made those for, celebrities. Ringo Starr has one. Cher has one, I believe. Yeah, they were, they were a thing.

[00:14:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's amazing. I love the name too.

[00:14:39] Robyn Jameson: Yeah, science fiction name. The metaphaser.

[00:14:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness. It's amazing.

[00:14:46] Robyn Jameson: Yeah. So, after I finished getting my master's degree, I moved shortly thereafter from Dallas to Austin. I've been working here ever since. My work has gotten more feminist. A lot of, I should say womanist. I think I liked that better because it's not about a movement. It's about having my work speak to women's concerns and also a lot of really personal work. And when I started, when I was doing my preparing when I was in graduate school, I started using actual text on my paintings and drawings and incorporating words in different ways. And I've continued to do that in most of my work. So that's it on my work.

[00:15:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. Well, you have had an amazing journey and gotten to do so many unique things with your art. Like you said, you've actually dabbled in so many different ones that your perspective is really unique and I think that's really incredible. And I think that gives you so much richness to draw from, because now you're kind of in a, a little bit of a different direction, it sounds like. And I would love to hear you share about the--well, I guess I know a little bit behind-the-scenes--but you're working on a book.

[00:16:08] Robyn Jameson: Yeah. Yes. I have a mission. Thank you for asking about that. I'm so excited about it. I didn't mention that, after I got out of undergraduate school, my first job was as a guard in a museum in a very progressive, modern art museum. And I would listen to what people were saying when they were visiting the museum. And so many people seemed frustrated. And they would say--I'm sure you've heard these things--"My five-year-old could do that. Or anybody could do that, that art." And clearly people were baffled, frustrated--not everyone. And I thought, "Wow, these are the people who are at the museum. These aren't the people who've given up already. And here's what they're saying. They are not loving it."

[00:17:02] And I would look at the same art that they were looking at and be completely awestruck, be thrilled and blown away. And, I could hardly believe my good fortune to be in that museum so much of the time. And I would go and see the same show day after day until it got changed. And even so, every single day was wonderful seeing it. And, I thought, "I have to do something about that." This is there's so much richness here and I know that that everyone can have access to it. I know it. And I started paying attention to other things.  I would ask people questions like, "Well, what do you, how do you think art should be?" Or,  "What is it about that that bothers you?" And what I could hear underneath people's comments was that they had ideas about what was art and what wasn't art, and what was good art and what wasn't good art. The ideas probably started in their childhood. And they just hadn't been exposed or educated beyond that. And we all know that when we're little kids, the school artists, the class artist is the kid who can draw the best. So of course we would think, "Oh, how I know art is good it that it's really well drawn."

[00:18:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:18:23]Robyn Jameson:   But if you look at, if you look at it, a lot of Picasso's work even, or, or the work now that's, doesn't even have a drawing a lot of times, of course you would think, "Well, that's ridiculous. How am I supposed to be, how am I supposed to appreciate that? It's not good drawing or didn't take a long time to make, or it doesn't have pretty colors." And we've developed our taste from--many, many of us at a really young age and haven't had the opportunity to develop it further.

[00:18:58]Lindsey Dinneen:  Sure.

[00:18:59] Robyn Jameson: So, I started writing a book, and the book is designed to open it up for everyone. And I tested it. I didn't test the book. Although I am testing the book on the person who's helping me write it, 'cause she's not an art person. It's fascinating. But back starting a long time ago, I started taking people on museum tours. I called it, modestly, Robyn, Robyn Jamison Art Tour. And I would take people, 10 people at a time. And, and I would put them in front of a piece of art. I would ask them to choose something that they immediately felt discomfort with, or they didn't like, like to especially pick a piece of work that did not draw them in at first.

[00:19:44] And then I just asked them to stay in front of it for awhile. I'd say, "I'm going to come back for you in 15 minutes and just stay here. You can think whatever you think, experience whatever you experience, you can move closer to the work and farther from the work. You can move around it, move to different sides, to see it from different angles, but stay with this piece of work." And what I came back, without even any direction, people said, "Wow. It's not the same anymore. When I really looked at it more, I found some things about it that were really interesting. And I noticed that I had some reactions in my body, and I noticed that it looked different, and I noticed it was different when I got close from when I got back. And I noticed that there were great big brush strokes. So I could imagine the artists moving his arm or, you know, really like a huge motion or whatever. I wanted to get really up close to it. And I could see all these details that I didn't see. And I noticed that I felt upset or I noticed that I felt happier. I noticed that."

[00:20:48]So people would start to actually have an experience. And that was where the gold was. And, people said, and then, you know, there was more to the tour. And I would ask people to notice certain things after a while, and to think about certain things. What if, and how about, but all questions, not answers and it didn't require any academic learning at all. None. You wouldn't have to understand color theory. You don't have to understand compositional theory. You don't have to understand art history, really. Art is delicious when it's purely experienced and yes, it's fun and valuable to know things about it if you like to do that. And I encourage it, but I know that it's not, it's not what gives you that amazing experience. And that's a lot of what my book is about. It's debunking beliefs that people have that get in the way. It's directing people in other directions and it's letting them know, letting people know that it's really for everyone, no matter how avant garde it is, no matter how weird it is, there's no reason why it shouldn't be accessible to you, to everyone.

[00:22:07]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And listeners of this podcast would especially, probably appreciate that because they know where I'm coming from as well, and just trying to share art with more people, because I think there is so much to art and I love your perspective of when you take more time with it, and when you have a little more even context sometimes, or, or just the guide, like you have been, it makes all the difference in the world to, you know, an experience that someone can have, especially if that's not their thing.

[00:22:40]Robyn Jameson: It's really true. And I like a really nontraditional approach. So when I took on writing the book, or it actually--I started a really long time ago and kept starting and stopping--but I also had a vision of speaking. Being a speaker for the difference that art makes and especially the part that, that people feel so locked out of. And why I'm so passionate about that is because it is a reflection of our culture. Yes, impressionism is beautiful. Yes, the old masters were awesome. I mean, what they did was incredible--such mastery and such expression. But today's art is today's art and nothing else is, and it gives you artists' perspective and artists' insight into what it's like to be alive right now. And so a few months ago, well, in May, I was in a conference called the "Conference for Global Transformation." And it was full of people who had a vision and were in action on realizing their vision. And I got in touch with the fact that I really wanted to do more than just write a book. So the book became part of what it takes from my mission, which is for everyone to have access to the art of our time and to be able to relate to it and appreciate it. And so I've been in action ever since every single day. And this is part of it to spread the word for people to, begin to open that up, open that door. I've been assembling a team, and I'm writing a song, and I'm going to be doing podcasts similar to what you're doing, and I'm traveling and speaking. That's my vision. So that, throughout the rest of my life will be devoted to having that happen.

[00:24:36]Lindsey Dinneen: That sounds amazing. Yeah. Well, and again, I love, I love your heart behind art and I love what you're trying to do with it. Do you have any specific stories that you particularly wanted to share today?

[00:24:50] Robyn Jameson: Hmm. Let's see. Oh yeah, here's one. Yes. I love this. And it really speaks to having freedom around art and not thinking that every single piece has to look the same to everyone or have a certain meaning. I was at a gallery and there was this little girl. She was about seven. And she was pointing at a, at a work of art and she said, " Mom, look, it's got a taco in it." Her mom was kind of going, "Shush." And the artist was there. It was an opening. The artist is there and she overheard it and she came up and she said, "Oh, you're right that there is a taco in it. I never saw that before. Thank you so much." Isn't that great? It's really parallel with my message that however it is for you is valid, even if you hate it, enjoy hating it, you know, what is it that you hate about it? Get into it, you know, give it some time, look and see what is it? What is that?

[00:25:51]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness.

[00:25:53] Robyn Jameson: So one of the chapters in my book is about, this is a story about, you know, I've been calling all these people, some of whom I've known before. And some, I never knew just when I would get connected to them by odd ways, just like I was introduced to you. And I got this one guy on the phone, he's a filmmaker. And I was interested in having him get involved with this mission. And I was telling him about the benefits. So there's a chapter in the book about the benefits and it includes that it levels out your ... It's been proven that  it evens out your heartbeat to spend time with art, that it, it levels your cortisol.  It has cognitive benefits and your brain works better. Kids test smarter after just one visit to an art museum. They took 10,000 kids and did this test with them, and it was like a very high percentage tested higher just after one visit, and not right after either. They would wait a month. Anyway, so I was telling this guy about the benefits. He's a physicist and a filmmaker and entrepreneur, interesting guy. And I started telling him about the benefits and he goes, he started saying, "Yeah. I can just see it. Like you go to work and you go to work and you're talking to your colleague and your colleague says, 'Hey, I see you got a raise. How'd you do that?' And the person says, 'Oh, I've been going to the art museum over lunch.'  Or, or 'I see that you got engaged.' 'Yes. I've been looking at modern art and I've gotten so much more relaxed. And my, the woman I had been pursuing now finally accepted my proposal.'" So he was actually seeing it in terms of how it would affect people in their everyday life. And it was so delightful. Isn't that great?

[00:27:42] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing. I love it.

[00:27:44] Robyn Jameson: And it's, I mean, it sounds funny, but it really is true. It really is true that participating with art has an enormous impact on our wellbeing.

[00:27:55]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's awesome. That is amazing. So, yeah. Well, thank you again so much, Robyn, for sharing more about your experience with art and what you're kind of passionate about right now. And if it's okay with you, I do have a couple of questions. I always like to ask my guests.

[00:28:12] Robyn Jameson: Sure.

[00:28:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. So the first is going to be, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:28:21] Robyn Jameson: Okay, well, I would say that I'm a little bit of an art snob. So I consider art anything that is created with the intention for it to be, for its only function to be, presented and appreciated. For me, art is music, poetry, literature, literature, dance, visual art, film. And for me, originality is important.

[00:28:52]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay! And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:28:58]Robyn Jameson: Well, the role of the artist is to create and to create authentically from the heart. I think the role of the artist also includes sharing what they've created.

[00:29:10]Lindsey Dinneen:  Okay. And then do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll define my terms a little bit with that. Yeah. So with inclusive, it's, the audience or the spectator essentially has a little bit of context to what the art is, whether it's a painting or whatever, they have a little bit behind it, either it could be something as simple as a title that's kind of helpful or, or it could be program notes or something like that. So the artists kind of invite somebody into their own interpretation per se. Versus exclusive meaning that the artists create something, shares it with the world, but it doesn't provide much or any context to it. So then it's completely kind of up to the audience to determine what they think.

[00:30:06] Robyn Jameson: Both. My preference is that people experience the art first. And then find out what the artist has to say about it or what the museum has to say about it, so that they really get their own experience first. And so that they're not looking to agree. You know, so that, like the artist says it's about this, so then when I, when I go and look at the art, then I think, "Well it's about that, instead of having it be really open-ended." So I really prefer for people to have their own experience first and then to see what the artist says about it. And even, even after seeing what the artist says about it or what the clues are to still not have it be like a quiz, like, "Oh, I got it right." Or "I didn't get it right." I really think that it's personal ultimately to each individual. I also don't want artists to be so like, so exclusive as you put it, that they won't share what they were up to.

[00:31:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Absolutely.  Well you, again, so much, Robyn. And if people want to get in contact with you, continue with your journey of speaking and writing this book and your own artwork, is there a way that they can do that?

[00:31:27] Robyn Jameson: Oh, yes, absolutely. Feel free to email me at Robyn and I spell Robyn with a y, R O B Y N at Robyn, spelled the same, Jamison, J A M I S O N.com. So it's [email protected], which robynjamison.com is also my website for my own artwork. And then I'm also on Instagram and I would love, love, love to hear from people, especially anyone who might want to get involved in the, in my mission for the world.

[00:32:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome.

[00:32:03] Robyn Jameson: And anyone who's interested in any further conversation is more than welcome to contact me. Thank you so much.

[00:32:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, of course. Well again, Robyn, thank you so much for sharing with us today, but thank you in general for creating art and thank you for sharing it. And especially now, I really love what your mission is and your desire to connect art with people 'cause you know how impactful it can be for everyone to engage in art. So thank you so much for what you're doing. I can't wait to read the book. I'm excited to be a small, little part.

[00:32:43] Robyn Jameson: You're a pretty big part. And thank you. I do want to also say, I must say that the title of the book is "The Magic of Modern Art." It's not out yet. It's going to be out next year.

[00:32:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, folks. So keep your eyes open for that, because you'll definitely want to grab a copy when it comes out. And, thank you to all of you who have listened to this episode, and we will catch you next time.

[00:33:11] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:33:20]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, I'm excited to share with you about Audible! As a podcast listener yourself, you already know how great it is to listen to something while you're driving or doing dishes or whatever it is. Audible has thousands of titles of audio books, as well as podcasts and other cool things. And they're offering a free audio book to Artfully Told listeners! When you sign up for a free trial membership, you'll have 30 days to decide if Audible is right for you. And you can cancel at any time without being charged and still keep your free audio book. Sign up for your free trial and audio book at www.audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Again, that's www. audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Thanks, Artfully Told listeners!

In this episode, our host's husband interviews her! Lindsey shares about her experience as Artistic Director of a professional dance company, and all the highs, lows, joys, and laughter that has produced, plus all the things she's learned along the way about leadership, communication, and the importance of the arts. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Lindsey dancing!)

Get in touch with Lindsey Dinneen: www.lifebutbetter.org | www.facebook.com/lindseydinneenofficial | www.instagram.com/lindseydinneenofficial 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart 

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Episode 21 - Lindsey Dinneen

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it, and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23]Elna:  Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm Lindsey, and the tails are turning a little bit in this episode. Actually, my husband is kind enough to join me on this role reversal, I suppose. What do you want to call it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So he is actually going to be interviewing me. And, I guess I'll share some stories, but I will let Kevin take it away.

[00:00:59] Kevin Dinneen: Yes, thanks for joining me on my podcast show today. I appreciate you getting back to me so quickly on my invite.

[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yes, yes.

[00:01:08]Kevin Dinneen: I do have to say it was kind of funny. She started the show with her countdown being-- and we're starting the show in five, six, seven, eight.

[00:01:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Like a true dancer.

[00:01:21]Kevin Dinneen: So I guess, I'm kind of wanting to know what it was like for you to transition from dancing under others' directions and others' choreography to starting your own professional dance company, and both choreographing and directing that, and also running it and booking gigs, booking performances, and booking appearances and things like that. And, I'm pretty sure like 99 times out of a hundred, everything went smoothly. So maybe you don't have very many stories, but maybe if you think real hard, you can think of a couple of...

[00:02:04] Lindsey Dinneen: I can maybe do that. Yeah. Well, it's live theater. So everything goes exactly as planned, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, oh my goodness. I, so thinking back to when I first had the opportunity to produce a show, it was the Kansas City Fringe Festival, and I met the director and she had asked me what my future plans were. She knew I was a dancer with another company at the time and I said, well, you know, eventually I think I want to own my own dance company, professional dance company, and take that on, directing and choreographing.

[00:02:42] And, and she said, "Well, why aren't you doing that now?" And I thought, "Well, because I'm too young, and I don't have any experience and no, that's not going to be a thing." And, and she gave me this incredible opportunity. She said, "You know, we have this open slot, and for a dance company in particular, and we'd love to have you." And I remember feeling so excited, and then so overwhelmed... 

[00:03:09] Kevin Dinneen: And this slot happened to be at the ideal location, the best venue for dance in the Fringe Festival, the Kansas City Ballet's space.

[00:03:21] Lindsey Dinneen: It's gorgeous. Yeah. They have this incredible studio theater that's large and it has a great floor and the capabilities are just, it's just stunning. It's beautiful.

[00:03:33]Kevin Dinneen:  Lighting and sound, the technical side of it is professional and legit.

[00:03:39] Lindsey Dinneen: I'm a little biased, but especially for a dance perspective, it is probably the best venue,  for what I would have liked to do with it, I guess.  So I have this incredible opportunity and I just remember feeling so kind of intimidated by it thinking, "Well, I don't have very much time to prepare." By that time, I only had a couple months and that would mean, you know, recruiting dancers and doing all the choreography, figuring out costumes, figuring literally everything out. I mean, I'd never done something like this before.

[00:04:13] Kevin Dinneen: And this was a full feature production, not just like, "Hey, can you do 10 minutes or something like that."

[00:04:22]Lindsey Dinneen:  Or one piece. Right. And I only had a couple of months to prepare if I were going to say yes to it. And I remember talking to Kevin and he was so onboard. You were so onboard from the beginning, and I think he basically said, "You can't miss this opportunity." This is--yeah, you have to do this, you have to do it. And then he, and he, he also promised that he was going to be there for me every step of the way so if there was something I needed--backstage support or whatever--he would be there for me, which gave me the courage to say yes. And, just a quick little roast or whatever you want to say is now anytime where he's, you know, maybe not feeling as, as inspired as he was on day one to do some of the backstage things that have to happen, I can always be like, "I kind of started this because of you." Yeah. Kind of not fair, but I'm still gonna use it.

[00:05:17] Kevin Dinneen: She also said, "Hey, if you're agreeing to this, I promise you terrible hours and horrible pay. She's brought that up a bunch of times saying, "Hey, you knew what you were signing up for."

[00:05:30] Lindsey Dinneen: I did. I did. Yeah. I was, I was honest, at least you knew what you were getting into, but yeah.

[00:05:37]Yes. Okay. So. So here I am. I said yes to this opportunity. And I texted one of my friends that night and said, "Would you like to do this thing with me?" And, I soon had a small group of people. I think there were seven of us plus you in that first show.

[00:05:58] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Seven of us plus me.

[00:06:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, sorry. Whoops. Okay. What I mean is...

[00:06:03] Kevin Dinneen: Also, terrible credit.

[00:06:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:06:08] Kevin Dinneen: She gives a terrible credit as well.

[00:06:10]Lindsey Dinneen:  Oh no. Okay. All right. Let me caveat. We had seven professional dancers and we had Kevin. No. Okay. And then Kevin, and you'll have to listen to this episode, but Kevin joined us for one particular piece.

[00:06:27] Kevin Dinneen: Two pieces. I was in two pieces that show.

[00:06:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, you're right. Okay. So he was... all right... he's, you were the star of one of the pieces and then the second piece, he made a cameo appearance. So yes, it was in two pieces. Anywho so I, I started on this journey and I remember being just so intimidated thinking, "I have never done anything like this before on this scale." And I'm trying to create a professional production and I'm working with my peers, which is fabulous. But how do you direct your peers? I mean, how do you go from, we danced alongside each other in professional companies as peers to now, I am in a leadership role where I'm directing I'm, I'm, making corrections, I am setting the choreography, I'm making the decisions.

[00:07:22] And so all of that goes into this feeling of overwhelm and, and, "Oh my gosh, I don't even know if this is, if I can do this." And, so I had also decided that when I produced this first show, it didn't make sense to just do a solo show. I figured if I was going to do this, I might as well go ahead and just launch the company, which was a big endeavor in and of itself. So the company launched simultaneously, as we produced our first show at Fringe. And so that is what established VidaDance. And, you know, I hadn't had an example of working with a director who was working with his or her peers. I always had directors that, you know, had had their careers before.

[00:08:10] Kevin Dinneen: For years and years. They had all, all the directors that you worked under or for, they were established as the boss and I have years of proof why you should listen to me.

[00:08:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. And, and that's completely legitimate. And I did not have that same experience in relation to, to my peers, in the dancers I was directing. So I just remember for a long time feeling very insecure and wondering, could I even do this and just trying to do my best and thinking, Okay. I've had wonderful opportunities to learn from all of the directors and choreographers that I've worked with. And I know what works well as far as motivating, and I know what doesn't work as well. And so I'll just try to combine all the good things I learned from those people over the years."

[00:09:06] Kevin Dinneen: If you could pick like, like two, what were the most important things that you kind of latched on to?

[00:09:17]Lindsey Dinneen:  As good things for me to emulate?

[00:09:20]Kevin Dinneen:  Or, yeah. What are the things that you just made a decision on, not having an example. If you could choose two things for someone in your position to do like you did, what two things would those be?

[00:09:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Can I cheat and say three?

[00:09:36] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:09:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:09:38] Kevin Dinneen: I'd like to amend my question, which two or three things?

[00:09:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, alright. So the first was to respect my dancers time. I was asking them to volunteer quite a bit of time, and so in rehearsal, I was dedicated from day one that only the essential people who had to be there at rehearsal were the ones called to rehearsal.

[00:10:03] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Because you didn't have, you didn't have a budget until you got paid for the, the actual event.

[00:10:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Correct. And so I wanted to make sure that time was spent fairly and very productively. So I showed up every single time, knew exactly what I wanted to cover with a select group of people, and nobody else had to be there. So definitely respecting dancers' time was a huge, huge thing for me. Another thing was, at a professional level--and this is my opinion, and everyone can have something different--but I do not believe in asking dancers to work for free. They have already invested years and years of money and time and training. And at this point I would like to see them at a point where they're financially rewarded for their work. And so that was a big thing for me. And then, oh, my goodness. Now I'm going to forget my third.

[00:10:57] Kevin Dinneen: I'd like to amend my first amendment and say thank you for answering the two things that you would tell someone in your position.

[00:11:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Shoot. If it comes back to me all, I'll, I'll return to it. Yeah. So I just remember feeling insecure and feeling like, I just don't know if I can do a good job and just trying to do the very best I could and treat everyone with respect and care and we would just go and put a show on together and see what happened. And then leading up to the first performance. I wrote out my pre-show speech and rehearsed it so many times.

[00:11:37] Kevin Dinneen: So many times.

[00:11:39]Lindsey Dinneen: So many times, 'cause I wanted to explain the concept of the company, you know, because we were introducing ourselves essentially to the world. Right? We were, there it is, that was our world premiere as a professional company not just for that show.  I just remember being backstage before the very first show and like shaking, right? I am shaking because I have to introduce the show, and I'm not a super confident public speaker. I don't hate it. Like I'll go and do it. But I wasn't thrilled about it.  I just remember walking out and I had the mic, and the mic always helps me feel a little more relaxed for whatever reason.

[00:12:16]Kevin Dinneen:  As opposed to the lapel mic, you wanted to hold it.

[00:12:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I wanted to hold it because that way I had something for my hands to do, but I just remembered, like, literally my legs shaking and I don't think it was noticeable. I don't know.

[00:12:28] Kevin Dinneen: It wasn't!

[00:12:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. That's good, but I remember feeling so unsteady on my feet like I will just fall over in a second. And then as soon as that was over and I guess I didn't botch it up too much, I saw a video later. It wasn't, it was, it was good. It was decent.

[00:12:42] Kevin Dinneen: It was fine. It was better than 90% of other ones that I've seen-- your first one was.

[00:12:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that's sweet. So right from there, I was, and I do this to myself way too much-- I haven't learned my lesson on this whole thing-- but  I switch gears immediately from director mode. As in, I have to introduce this concept and the show, to I am a dancer in the first place. Please don't do that. If there are any directors out there, it's a stupid idea. And I still don't learn my lesson. And in fact, the very last show I did, I did the same darn thing, but anyway, switched modes into dancer mode, because not only was I directing it, the show, but I, the first show I choreographed...all of it? Almost all of it?

[00:13:31]Kevin Dinneen:  I remember you're, you're choreographing like every spare second. You had your headphones in and you're moving around the...

[00:13:43]Lindsey Dinneen:  Living room

[00:13:44] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, living room.

[00:13:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, because that was where I choreographed. Still do. So, okay. So then I choreographed most of it, if not all of it. And then I was dancing in a lot of it and well, I I've continued to do that because for me, I absolutely love performing and it would be difficult for me to give that up, so I continued to do all three roles in our shows that we produce, which I absolutely love. But I just remember getting onto the stage that first time after switching modes and thinking, "Whew, that was weird." And, and trying to, like, turn my brain off from evaluating how I did in that speech, to I need to remember the choreography right now. I mean, right now is my time to perform and that was such an interesting dynamic for show number one. And then kind of after that, everything went smoothly and happily... no. So, okay. Was it the next year? I think it was the very next year that we had our Murphy's Law set of shows. 

[00:14:46] Kevin Dinneen: It was for four nights of performances and something interesting happened every night.

[00:14:56] Lindsey Dinneen: The ones that stand out to me were, one night, one of the dancers was late to the show...

[00:15:06]Kevin Dinneen:  Not just late. Late could be like five minutes, 10 minutes to call, right? To get there for prep.

[00:15:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, late would be... right. Like in a dancer's world, late, if you're late that's--you did not arrive before or at the call time, which is usually like what an hour? An hour and a half before performance time. An hour and a half.

[00:15:24] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, depending on the show.

[00:15:25] Lindsey Dinneen: That's true. That's true. Right. This dancer missed three numbers for basically about half the show because she had ended up switching cars to get to the theater, and realized about halfway to the theater that she had her costumes in the other car. So she had to completely retrace their steps. But anyway, so then as a result of that, we ended up on the spot having to--and things like that happen, like total grace, things like that happen-- but, the rest of us dancers had to figure out on the spot what we were going to do because she had a number of featured roles in the pieces that were at the beginning of the show.

[00:16:07] Kevin Dinneen: She had a long solo too, pretty close to the beginning.

[00:16:09] Lindsey Dinneen: She had a long solo. Yeah.

[00:16:11] Kevin Dinneen: Or pretty close to the beginning.

[00:16:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So we had to kind of figure out who is going to fill in her spots. And, you know, it's one of those things where, when it's that last minute, you just do your absolute best. And if it's not exactly what the choreography was, who cares? I just wanted to make sure that the stage wasn't blank. And I have to say, I'll circle back around to this, but I have never been prouder of that group of dancers than I was in that moment, because there was nobody who was complaining or saying, "What?! I can't believe, blah, blah, blah." I mean, 'cause these things happen, right? And instead everyone was immediately in, "Okay, this is a situation. How do we make it work?"

[00:16:54] Kevin Dinneen: Didn't like a couple of people were like, "Well, I can do this." And then you were just like...

[00:17:00] Lindsey Dinneen: They just took it on.

[00:17:01] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:17:01] Lindsey Dinneen: They took full ownership.

[00:17:02] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And I did not realize that there was a change until she came on and I was like, "Hey! She's just, she's just now on there?"

[00:17:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:17:17] Kevin Dinneen: Like, everyone rocked it.

[00:17:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. No, I mean, and I think, so we basically ended up divvying out her roles among three or four dancers, but it was so amazing to me, 'cause I remember one of my dancers saying, "Oh, I think I know that solo well enough. I'll, I'll go out and do it." And I was like, "Great." And then another said, "Oh, I can do her part for this particular piece." And she'd never done it. You know, nobody had ever rehearsed this stuff and they just rocked it.  I mean, so proud and so thankful and so impressed with the caliber-- I mean, I know that these people are wonderful that I get to work with, but-- it was in that moment when I realized, wow, this is an amazing atmosphere here that people are just so--it doesn't matter what the situation-- they just dive right in and solve the problem. And I love that. And so then the next performance, one of the dancers got to the theater and realized she didn't have any of her shoes. So I think that was a pair of character shoes, pointe shoes, probably flat ballet shoes, jazz shoes, even.

[00:18:19] Kevin Dinneen: This is part of the story that I didn't even realize, I thought it was just one of her pairs of shoes.

[00:18:23] Lindsey Dinneen: No, all of them. And so she sent her husband back home to get the shoes and he brought them back. He wasn't gonna make it in time for the first few numbers. So the rest of us all rallied around, found spare shoes amongst all of, you know, the dancers and, and just made it work. And it worked. And then another night, it's our finale piece and it was this really fun, upbeat, jazz and tap kind of hybrid piece. And...

[00:18:52] Kevin Dinneen: We have video of this...

[00:18:56] Lindsey Dinneen: I think we'll probably release it...

[00:18:57] Kevin Dinneen: We need to maybe put a link in the show notes.

[00:19:01] Lindsey Dinneen: He might forgive us. It's okay. So one of my dancers is Joe. Awesome, awesome guy, and he has thankfully an amazing sense of humor, but, okay. So great upbeat song. He is like rearing to go. He's always super high energy...

[00:19:18] Kevin Dinneen: And his entrances are almost always like over-the-top high energy with a leap, with a turn.

[00:19:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Explosive. And I mean, he just rocks the stage when he comes out. So, so he's all eager beaver over there in the wings. And I see it, I see this out of the corner of my eye, and I realize that as he goes onto the stage, I realize that it's not his time. And he has literally entered the stage probably a good...

[00:19:55] Kevin Dinneen: 30 seconds...

[00:19:56] Lindsey Dinneen: 30 seconds before he's actually supposed to enter. And this was when he was actually going to be super in the way, because this particular piece had a lot of crossing back and forth. It was not conducive to the traffic flow.  I did not realize until he made it on stage and then I was like, "Oh, no!" You know, like that's slow emotion, reaching for something kind of thing, and then realizing there's nothing you can do. So, so he sashays onto stage bright and cheerful, and realizes immediately that he's way too early. So he does like, he does like a u-turn and sashays towards the wings, but he knows as any good professional does that you can't just like enter, and exit, because then it'll be super obvious that you messed up. So instead he comes back to the wing, he's close to the curtain, and he does this very big grand gesture towards the dancers as if he's introducing them.

[00:20:53] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Like, like welcome to the show.

[00:20:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Right. With his arms, with the wide sweeping gesture, and he just stays there and waits, and it was  amazing. And, oh, my word. So anyway, that was our Murphy's Law set of shows that we had. But you know what, again, I was so proud of our dancers because every time we had an issue, they were like on it immediately. But also that was the first year that we won Best of Venue for the Kansas City Fringe Festival. So it kind of proved to me that not only can we rally together, but that we rock it when we do. I mean, it, we really have such a close knit group of people. There, there is nothing like it, I'm so grateful for this group of people.

[00:21:40] Kevin Dinneen: So when you started your whole directing career, you were worried about certain things and you made certain things a certain way based on your experiences and what you wanted the experience for your dancers to be. I'd kinda like to know what things did you learn the hard way, because you made certain changes before you even started to what is the norm, or what you experienced, and what things--did you learn anything like, "Oh, I really didn't do that right." Or that, you know, as a director.

[00:22:17]Lindsey Dinneen:  Well, one thing that I learned that I was surprised was, in the beginning, I used to do a lot of very general corrections when things weren't looking correct. I wouldn't call out anyone in particular. And, it was intentional at the time. It was, I felt a little bit bad--again, when you're working with your peers, and you're just not sure quite how that dynamic is going to go. I did very generalized corrections for a while and I think that, as a result, like on the other side of things, generalized questions are actually very frustrating because you don't know if the director's referring to you or somebody else or what's going on. And it's, it's actually very unhelpful.  And so, so I did that thinking I was kind of protecting feelings and then it, as it turns out, it was actually--I'm diminishing the quality because people didn't know when they weren't correct, like when it applied to them versus when it didn't. So that was definitely something I learned was, it wasn't hurting people's feelings. People wanted to know. And that was, that was a huge thing for me is they were like, "No, tell me when I'm not doing it correctly. Tell me when I look different from other people. I want to do it with excellence." So I definitely remember learning that.

[00:23:35] Kevin Dinneen: Sort of a followup question, so what kind of things--you've talked about, when you first started directing--some of the things that you were worried about? So what things nowadays, what are we five years into it? Or a little more?

[00:23:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Almost. Yeah. We're about to kick off our sixth season.

[00:23:54] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. So, so how has, how has that shifted? What, what kind of things kind of get you uncomfortable these days?

[00:24:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, good question. I definitely am way more comfortable with public speaking, introducing the shows, talking about it. I would say that, I'm still hesitant when it comes to asking for donations or something like that. That still feels very kind of foreign to me. We became a nonprofit late last year and it-- I, I fully believe in what we're doing, but I will just say for me personally, this is kind of a new leap of faith to start fundraising and really start feeling comfortable with asking for money. So I would say that's a new area for me. I've always, I guess, tried to kind of make things happen on my own?

[00:24:44] Kevin Dinneen: Yes, you've bootstraped everything. Everything you've done has been, we'll put in as much as we can.

[00:24:54] Lindsey Dinneen: I am an expert at asking for specific kinds of donations. Money is difficult for me, but if I can ask for in -kind donations, I actually do a pretty good job on that, come to think of it. Yeah, so.

[00:25:06]Kevin Dinneen:  Yeah, just send an email, send the email.

[00:25:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Send the email. That's a whole 'nother conversation.

[00:25:13] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. That's a whole 'nother podcast special.

[00:25:19] Lindsey Dinneen: So. Yeah. So, so I think that's an area of growth for me.  I've written a few grants before, actually for other companies, but I haven't really done much--again, kind of now we're in this, this space where we can start really pursuing grants that are available to nonprofits. So that will be another opportunity for growth, not something I've done a lot of and not something that I'm super familiar with the process.

[00:25:43]Kevin Dinneen: What about, like opening night? There were things that you used to worry about, and there are things that you still worry about. Are they the same things or have those things changed?

[00:25:54] Lindsey Dinneen: I think I still always have those opening night jitters. It just always, you just never know. You pour your heart and soul into a project and you believe in it. And when you're watching it in rehearsal, you think, yes, this could be something. But you don't really know until opening night, when you start hearing the audience.

[00:26:15]Kevin Dinneen:  Five years in, do you have a better feel or is it the same level as when you started?

[00:26:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Good question. No, it is not the same. I felt when I launched the company, I was trying to do a very different concept than anything that Kansas City had seen, for a variety of reasons. One of the big ones was that we do variety style shows, in the sense that our dancers are hugely multitalented. They can do ballet, modern, jazz, tap...

[00:26:41]Kevin Dinneen:  And you incorporate all of that into a show.

[00:26:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. And I remember thinking, I don't think Kansas City is ready for this because it was so different. And so first show jitters were ridiculous because I thought, I am really putting myself out there by declaring who we're going to be, and it was so unique, that I was afraid that it would just be completely rejected, you know? Oh, that's stupid. Now, I mean, I know, so there's been a lot of proof that our concept not only works, but people love it. I mean, they look forward to it every year. They talk about how much joy it brings them and that's all I've ever wanted to do. So, it's not the same. I still get those like, "Oh, is this gonna work? Is it going to work?" Or, you know, are people gonna understand what this piece is about, but not to the same level.

[00:27:34] Kevin Dinneen: Well, and I think some of that probably comes with how different every show is that you do. You never do the same thing twice, and it's always completely original, right? So you go, you see one show, the next one is going to be completely different. So, I guess I could see how that would, if you're doing the same show year after year, it would make a lot more sense that you would just get comfortable.

[00:27:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, sure.

[00:28:00] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. People like this, but it's something new every time.

[00:28:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. You're absolutely right. There are new concepts every time. I don't repeat work, so yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point.

[00:28:08] Kevin Dinneen: I do also want to throw out a caveat here. Lindsey's never heard these questions.

[00:28:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, no, that is very true.

[00:28:14] Kevin Dinneen: We did not talk about this is ahead of time.

[00:28:17]Lindsey Dinneen: I guess I would say kind of along with that, just to give, some more perspective . So, backing up, you know, I just kind of talked about the fact that all I've ever wanted to do was bring joy through our performances and that is the heart and soul behind the company. But, besides having this variety of styles that we do consistently throughout our shows, the other thing that we do is, our whole point as a company is to make dance accessible to everyone, to people that have a background in dance and understand the difference between a pirouette and a foute to the people who absolutely have never gone to a performance before and probably didn't have any interest in doing so. And so we do that through a lot of ways, because I do think that dance can bring so much joy to people if they can appreciate it. And so we do a variety of styles so that, you know what, hey, if you're not in a classical ballet fan, you're not sitting through an hour of just classical ballet. You'll see tap, which is super fun, hard to dislike tap, and you'll see some jazz and you'll see some modern and, you know, you might even see some Irish Step or Bollywood.

[00:29:26]We're always exploring, you know, what, what can we do as a company? How can we grow? And, we're very passionate about making our storylines easy to understand so that, you know, you don't leave thinking well, I had no idea what that piece was about.  The choreographers always write notes about what the piece is about or what inspired them for the programs. Oh, yes. For the programs. and so you always have a little bit of context. You can draw from it what you want, but at least you kind of know what the original intention was behind the artist's choice.

[00:29:59] Kevin Dinneen: A lot of your music is very relatable and, you know, matches the, the idea behind the piece very well.

[00:30:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. We don't do a lot of super abstract work. I don't even think we've really done anything that's very abstract.  We're trying to find and share the beauty, light and joy that we experience when we dance with the world. And I dance because it inspires my soul. And I just want to share a little piece of that inspiration.

[00:30:31]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Okay. So a little behind-the-scenes question here.

[00:30:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:30:36] Kevin Dinneen: So I've noticed that your anxiety and your worrying and, and that sort of whole bundle of feelings tends to grow and grow and grow until we get to opening night. And then you're just like, you know, whatever, if something comes up, I'll take care of it. What is that? How do you do that?

[00:31:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Okay. So, yes.

[00:31:03]Kevin Dinneen: Did you always have that?

[00:31:04] Lindsey Dinneen: No. Nope. Nope. Nope. I had to learn that as a director, very early on, because if you get too much of control freakiness going on, then you will just-- you won't have a good time. There'll just be, like every little thing that happens will be the end of the world, when it isn't. And, so, you know, I had worked--both of, all of us--I mean, we had worked quadruple time trying to make everything work just in a couple months to launch an entire company and a new show. And we get up to the opening day and I just remember thinking, you know what? We have worked so hard and now there's nothing we can do. So there's no, no other things to fix. There's nothing else that can, can, you know, we can't work on anything else at this point. So we just need to--whatever is whatever happens, happens, and we just go along for the ride and... and to that point, you know, unless something goes crazy wrong in the sense of, "Oh gosh, that lift really didn't work. We need to fix it." something like that. I don't give notes in between the shows.  I remember being on the receiving end of some of that. And it's actually very disheartening as a dancer, because you know, you're all trying your best, right? I mean, if you care and you're at a professional level--I think that means you care-- you're going to do your best. You're representing yourself, you're representing the choreographer, you're representing the company. Like you want to do your best.

[00:32:35] Kevin Dinneen: Do you think everyone who steps into a director role can do that? Or do you think that it's your dancers that allowed you to be able to do that?

[00:32:45]Lindsey Dinneen: That's a great question. I think that my dancers-- and I'm very biased-- but I think my dancers allowed me to be able to that. Oh, they have  allowed me to be a better director, to grow as a director, to be a better director because they do care and, and I don't have to worry about them. I know that they're going to do their best. And if someone messes up, it's not because they are just like, "whatever." It's because life happens and you don't always make your fourth rotation on your pirouette, or, or whatever.

[00:33:18] Kevin Dinneen: I've always made my fourth rotation.

[00:33:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Have you? Okay. On the floor or? Okay. Yeah.

[00:33:26] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Is there anything else that you would like to just volunteer before-- I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

[00:33:33]Lindsey Dinneen:  Boy. You know, the one thing I just want to say is I know what that third thing was! It's coming back. Okay. And it's this. It's really simple, but I think the number one thing you can do as a director or as anyone in leadership is to always show appreciation and gratitude for the people who come alongside you. I mean, I look back and think those seven people chose to work with someone that they had never, I had never set any choreography on them. I had never been in a leadership role with them. They didn't know what that was gonna look like. And they said yes, anyway. And, then every year the company has grown and grown and grown, and I will never be able to say, thank you enough to them. But there is no feeling in the world that matches what it feels like when I get to be on stage doing what I love the most with the people I love the most. And that feeling of "This came from nothing. And together, we have built this company that is now five years strong and we have done amazing things and we have brought joy to audiences." And there is nothing in my life that is more fulfilling than realizing the kind of impact that we have had and that we can have. And the magic that comes from a group of people who truly care, and then share that.

[00:35:15] Kevin Dinneen: And I do want to add that she left out social proof, winning Best Of at Fringe three out of five times. Big deal.

[00:35:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That was really amazing.

[00:35:29] Kevin Dinneen: All right. Okay. So if I were to task you with writing a definition of art, you can't look up Webster's or anything like that, how do you define art?

[00:35:41]Lindsey Dinneen: You're using my questions against me. Okay. okay. Art is an expression of creativity that shares someone's life experiences-- whether that's feelings or situation or dreams-- with the world.

[00:36:10]Kevin Dinneen: Okay.

[00:36:12] Lindsey Dinneen: How about that?

[00:36:13] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah!  What do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:36:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So I believe the most important role of an artist is to share beauty, hope and joy with the world. And I realize that there are so many things that artists can express. And I love that. I love that art can tackle very difficult topics and open up conversations about things that need to be discussed. And I, I so admire that. I think that there's a place for that, but I think ultimately, opening up those conversations and dealing with those difficult topics can lead to hope and optimism that the world can be changed and that things can be improved. And whether that just starts with the one person who was inspired by that, or whether that spreads out through an audience that thinks, "Wow, I've never looked at it that way before. And I am empowered. I am empowered to make a change. " And I think it's so important that artists can take life and give it this gorgeous rich goodness.

[00:37:44]Kevin Dinneen: Okay. All right. So now,  you've lived your full life. You've come to the end of your life,  and you're given the opportunity, though, to make a decision on how to spend the last part of your life. You have the opportunity to experience a piece of art one more time. One piece-- whether that be watch a movie, watch a play, look at a visual art, listen to a piece of music--whatever, whatever that is, you get to experience a piece of art that you appreciate one more time. What is that one last time? What is that one piece of art?

[00:38:24]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's a tough question. I think, I think that I would like to see "Cracked!" one more time. And for context, that is the original production that VidaDance produced that premiered in 2019. And it is a Kansas City inspired "Nutcracker." And the reason that I would want to see that particular production is because it has so many people in it that I just deeply, deeply care about. And, they're doing what they love. They're sharing their art, and it's a production that we had the opportunity to spearhead from the very beginning. I mean, it wasn't even a concept without, without us creating it. And so I think that there's so much tied into how proud I am of that production. And at the same time, I would get to see some of my favorite people doing what they love the most, in an art form that I just absolutely adore. I think that would have to be when I pick.

[00:39:40]Kevin Dinneen:  Okay. Shaped after your, your favorite city.

[00:39:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Shaped after my favorite city containing my favorite man! That'd be you.

[00:39:49]Kevin Dinneen: Alright. I'm honored. All right. Well, thanks, babe, for joining me on my special episode of your podcast. And, I hope you can make it back sometime.

[00:40:03] Lindsey Dinneen: I hope you can host again sometime! Well, thank you very much. And, thank you to all of you who listen. If you enjoyed this episode, I would love for you to share it with someone you think might be inspired or touched by it as well. And we look forward to catching you next time.

[00:40:23] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In this episode, I welcome Meghan Spencer! Meghan is the owner/photographer of Spencer Studios and an aerialist with Kansas City Aerial Arts. She shares some of her most memorable memories of encounters with art, and why they are the moments that matter most. Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Meghan, by Meghan! And BONUS: Here's a link to a blog post Meghan wrote on the creative process on a project that has been one of her most important artistic projects: https://kansascityaerialarts.com/masked-a-superhero-love-story-the-creative-process/. Enjoy!

Get in touch with Meghan Spencer: www.spencerstudiosphotography.com | https://www.facebook.com/SpencerStudiosPhotography | www.instagram.com/aerialist.meghan | www.instagram.com/spencerstudios | www.kansascityaerialarts.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart 

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Episode 20 - Meghan Spencer

Lindsey Dinneen:  Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time doesn't have to be perfect ever, really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it, and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24]Elna:  Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today the absolutely lovely Meghan Spencer. She is an aerialist with Kansas City Aerial Arts as well as the owner and a photographer extraordinaire of Spencer Studios. And I just am so thankful that you're here with us today. Thank you, Meghan.

[00:01:02] Meghan Spencer: Thank you so much for having me. I'm, I'm super excited about getting to join you on your podcast.

[00:01:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay. Well, if you don't mind, I'd love if you just share a little bit about yourself, maybe a little bit about your background, if that's okay.

[00:01:15] Meghan Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. So my full time job is I am a wedding and portrait photographer. That is the studio, Spencer Studios. And my last name is Spencer. So that's where that comes from. I get asked the question, "Who is Spencer?" very often. So, that's me. And, I primarily shoot weddings and boudoir, and in the last few years, I've kind of started picking up doing some business and branding stuff. I've also started shooting other artists in Kansas City. I had a, a light bulb moment that I can shoot and also interact with my other passion at the same time, which is pretty cool. So that's my, that's my full time gig. And then my side gig is I am an aerialist with Kansas City Aerial Arts, and I not only am a performer, but I also am a coach and a choreographer. And that side of it is also really exciting for me and something that brings me a lot of joy in my life.

[00:02:11] And in terms of kind of my longterm interactions with art, I started dancing when I was about four. Took that, that little tap class that all little dancers take with the shiny black shoes and the, I think my first costume was a yellow polka dot bikini if I remember, which is amazing and I love it. And then I danced pretty much my entire childhood. I was a part of a competitive dance company. And then when I got into high school, I never thought I'd be a professional performer. I just didn't think I was talented enough. And so I decided to quit dance. I could do the performance opportunities that were available to me in high school, and like the stuff that I knew I'd only really be able to do in high school. So I was in seven music ensembles and theater.

[00:03:05] I did band and choir and show choir and all the theater productions and all that stuff, which at the time just felt like doing a bunch of stuff I enjoyed, but in retrospect has really guided all those little things have really influenced my performance ability as an adult. And then after high school, I was in the marching band for four years in college. And then, after college I did one community play and then my, my artistic options kind of dried up. I got married. I, you know, living life and I, I didn't realize how much I had missed those performance opportunities until I had a friend that suggested I try aerial. And now I've been doing that for five and a half years and I'm performing again. And, so my life has pretty much been artistic for all of it in some way, shape or form.

[00:04:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure because I've had the opportunity to see too, but your dance background has significantly, I would say, given you a leg up, which--I probably shouldn't have said that pun, but anyway, here we are-- you know, for your aerial. I mean, do you think that that did help? I think you have a different approach than maybe somebody who doesn't have a dance background and, and comes into it, maybe from a gymnastics background or another kind of athletic background. I mean, do you think it gives you a different vibe?

[00:04:36] Meghan Spencer: Absolutely. I think both the dance background, as well as an acting background, both give me a really interesting perspective and I know that having a dance background means I don't ever have to think about my hands or my feet ever. I don't think about pointing my toes. I don't think about making my hands pretty. That's something that's really, really innate in how my body moves, which allows me the space to think about other things, which is really wonderful. And also the acting background has taught me a lot about building characters and how to communicate a lot of storytelling and emotions through the way that I'm moving my body. And I think those two things have really given me the opportunity to have a new way to express while also using all those tools that are like already in my toolbox.

[00:05:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. So we'll circle back to aerial because I'm such a fan of aerialists. I, first of all, if you, as an audience member, have not seen aerial yet, please go and support a performance because aerialists are absolutely amazing athletes and artists. And I want to be one when I grow up, but, but, back to your photography. So was that something that you had dabbled in earlier and then decided, "Hey, you know, I, I really could have this as my career, as my full time job." I mean, how, how did that evolve?

[00:06:10] Meghan Spencer: So in high school, I always had a camera on me always. And point and shoots existed. The one that I have was huge, like, it didn't even fit in my purse, so I'd have to carry it separately. And I just had it on me all the time and all my friends knew that I would be the one taking all the pictures and be posting them to Facebook like the next day. So they could have access to them, and that was just like my persona in high school. I just carried my camera everywhere. And then after high school, the summer between my freshman and sophomore year of college, for a summer job, I worked with a family friend who was a photographer, and I did all the, the grunt work, right? Like I, the boring editing and setting the lights up before shoots and things like that. And one day I was driving home, listening to music, and I had this realization that I had a really awesome day doing all of the grunt work. And I was like, "Well, maybe if the boring part of this job is something that I enjoy, maybe this is the thing I should do, do for a living."

[00:07:18]And that was just, that was just the start of it. And by the end of that summer, that studio ended up shutting down for a handful of reasons. And, I was sitting in my bed one morning, being sad because the job I really liked didn't exist anymore. And I was like, "Well, I guess I'll just do it myself then." And I got up and I made a website which was ugly and terrible, and it just kind of went from there. And by the time, I mean, probably two years from then, I was, I was sure that I was going to be a professional photographer for a living. All my advisors in college knew that that was my track, and that was, that was just something--I was shooting in college-- I had technically had already opened my business and was like editing and delivering products out of my sorority house.

[00:08:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice.

[00:08:13] Meghan Spencer: Yeah. I remember walking a client's photos to try it out one day, 'cause I was like, well, they, they live in this other sorority house. So walking over like, so I was already starting to do that at that point. So it's always been the plan and it took some years of building it to a point where it's financially viable on its own, but it's just something that I've known I've wanted to do since that light bulb moment on my way home from work that one day.

[00:08:43]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And you, well, okay, so this year has been wonky for everyone. We had a conversation about that even before we started recording, but you're booked up. I mean, you are in general, you have weddings all the time, all sorts of photo shoots. So your business just seems to have grown and grown and grown. So congratulations, because that's a really big deal.

[00:09:07] Meghan Spencer: Thank you. Yeah, it is and I, I have a couple of photographers that I mentor not in any sort of formal capacity, but they, and they asked me about that, and talk to me about that, and really, I mean, I had the business technically open for, I think, eight years before I went full time. And it took a long time and I almost threw in the towel a couple of times because building something like that is something that just takes a lot of time, and a lot of practice and you make a lot of mistakes, some of which are financially costly. But I just kept, I just kept pushing and eventually all the things aligned. I moved to Kansas City where my business, and my business model, and who I am as a person just fit in this market really well. And I just worked and worked and worked and eventually, yeah, just got to a point where I was able to quit my part-time job. And I got pretty lucky that I had a job that I could, as my business grew, I could cut down my hours and then eventually I could, you know, jump ship and do it full-time. And I've been really lucky that that has worked out for me pretty well. And also, I, can't not comment on the fact that my, my spouse has been very, very supportive throughout this process. And he's the one that kept me from not throwing in the towel. So, I really would not have been able to do it without, without his support.

[00:10:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's so important to have a great support system as an artist, your spouse, or, you know, your partner definitely is key. And then having a group of people who can help encourage you because it is tough. And yeah, there are definitely times when you want to throw in the towel and just go this isn't it or that, but yeah, I'm glad to hear that. Excellent. Well, I have a question, and this is just something that, you know, I've asked a couple people--it's, it's so difficult sometimes to put a price tag on art, I think. And it's important because what you do has a lot of value, obviously. And you've honed your craft for years, but sometimes still as an artist, it can be difficult to say, "Okay, well, it's worth X." How did you navigate that at the beginning? And maybe as you've grown as an entrepreneur, how has that evolved over time? Being able to sort of say, "Well, my products are great. Here's how I price it."

[00:11:48] Meghan Spencer: Well, I've been in business for 11 years and it still sucks. So, so it's gotten slightly better. It's still really hard.

[00:11:56]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah.

[00:11:57] Meghan Spencer: When I started, I, I had, because I had worked for someone else in the industry that meant that I had a little bit of knowledge in terms of what the industry was supporting at the time, which allowed me to have kind of a baseline which is, which was useful. And then over time, I've just raised my prices or adjusted my, my packages. There was, my original packages for weddings didn't work. They just were not what people wanted and it just wasn't working for me. And so then I changed them. They used to have eight hours and I was consistently annoyed that I wasn't able to shoot more getting ready or more reception or whatever the thing was. And so I changed it and they all include nine now. So a lot of that has been trial and error, figuring out what people want, and what works well in terms of creating those packages. And, pricing wise, I just, I try and raise my prices every couple of years to, to account for inflation and to account for the fact that I'm continuously better at my job, because I'm doing it more. And that's hard. I've been saying I was going to raise my prices for, I think, three years. And then COVID hit and then I did it again.

[00:13:20] So, I'm under-priced. And I really should fix it, but it's, it's just part of that process of, even if you've done it for a long time, being confident enough in your work to say that you're worth X amount. And I also pay a lot attention to what's going on in the market. That is always been a really big, determining factor for me in terms of if the market kind of ranges from here to here, and this is the market average. I want to be just a little bit above that market average. And that, that really has helped kind of at least give me a ballpark of where I want to be.

[00:13:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes complete sense. So are there any particular memories or stories that kind of stand out to you as being particularly impactful or memorable about some interaction with art?

[00:14:13] Meghan Spencer: So, I know you were gonna ask this question. So I've been thinking about it like always, and honestly, I just have a lifetime of moments that stand out to me as super memorable and are thus because of art. I, in high school heading into my senior year, I, we had a girl who the previous year was a senior and was super popular and super fun and bubbly, and everybody loved her and she was diagnosed with cancer. And at that age, that was catastrophic for us and so for that year for show choir, our show choir director wrote--'cause he, he wrote all of our ballads every year and he wrote one for her--and the first time that we all sang it together, she came back and singing this gorgeous ballad with her there. And all of us, like it was, it was so emotional and pivotal. And she's okay. She beat it and everything's great. But, so like, you know, that, that moment.

[00:15:25] Or in, my sophomore year of high school, we went to London. And one day we were at the London National Art Museum. And I was just wandering, kind of by myself, 'cause I like to take my time in art museums and nothing was really catching my eye. And then I found this painting and there was something about it that I just couldn't take my eyes off it. And I sat in front of it for about a half an hour. And honestly, I've never been able to figure out what that painting is. 'Cause I wasn't smart enough to write it down and I can't find it. But I've never forgotten that moment. And it's been like 15 years. And I remember what it looks like and I just couldn't, there's something about it. And I don't even really know what it was, but I just couldn't take my eyes off it.

[00:16:15]And then even more recently, I, I created an act in 2018 for an aerial show. And it was the first time that someone had trusted me with something so important. I had a solo, and it was a really big emotional piece, and no one had ever trusted me with something that important before. And I created something that I'm really, really proud of. And then eight days later, I had a catastrophic injury and that power from that solo kind of carried me through that injury in some ways was a negative thing, because it was like, I did that. And am I ever going to be able to do it again? And the lid on that injury in my head was the day that I did that solo again, after I got hurt. And it was about a year later after I had my injury. And that moment where I realized that my body healed and my heart still had some healing to do, but that I was past it. That was a big emotional moment. So I feel like my interactions with art, because I have been so involved in art in all ways, since I was so little. It's just all these little moments that pretty much make up, you know, this timeline of my entire life.

[00:17:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and circling back to your, your injury. So I know that, that--  well, for context, for those who don't know, Kansas City Aerial Arts and my professional company, VidaDance, partnered together for several years now and on several different productions-- and so I've had the privilege of knowing Meghan for a couple of years now. And I remember that injury just being so devastating and, you know, you're working so hard to get back and, you know, each little step forward was celebrated, but it was hard and, and you were just such a champion through it all, but yeah, what was the process like of trying to come back after having been injured and not being able to do what you love and then, really having to build that strength up, I would imagine, again. What was that like?

[00:18:43] Meghan Spencer: Yeah. The, the injury was pretty catastrophic, both physically and emotionally. And I, it was rough. I was completely grounded for eight months, but that didn't keep me from being involved. And I knew the only way I was going to survive, it was to stay involved. If I knew that all my friends were at the studio making something cool and I was staying at home, that would be significantly worse than being there and not being able to get in the air because if I was there, at least I was with my friends and I still have a brain. I still have a creative mind and I can be useful. And I got very lucky that I'm a part of an organization that wanted to keep me involved. And I was in a show. I was in a show two months later, tap dancing with a very, very injured arm.

[00:19:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes.

[00:19:39] Meghan Spencer: And like, I wouldn't have been able to do that had I not had a 13-year-old to tie my tap shoes and another adult to put me in my corset, like I needed so much help to be able to do that. And nobody batted an eye at helping me do that so I could still stay involved. And that was amazing. And then coming back was hard. I lost more strength than I realized I was going to. I knew that the around the injury was going to be a challenge, but I didn't realize that my entire body was going to have to essentially gain strength all over again, which has always been the hardest part about aerial for me. It took a lot and there are some, there are some rough days. The first day that I came back to condition and I was still grounded, but I was going to try and start working on strength for the rest of my body, was really hard.

[00:20:38] And I had a really rough day. And then after I was done, we had a company rehearsal. We're doing trust exercises, like trust falls and things like that. And that I couldn't participate in and I love that . So I just sat there in my puddle of like, "I'm weak and I can't do this, and now I'm sad." So there is a lot of that, but I also was so supported by my team, like, I wasn't alone one day for the first two weeks. I, every single day had somebody show up at my house and make sure I had lunch and talk to me for a couple of hours and make sure I was okay. And I remember, I was talking to a couple of our teenagers one day and I finally was able to lift my arm to 90 degrees.

[00:21:28] And you would have thought that I was doing backflips. They were so, so excited and so proud, which is, yeah, it was so sweet 'cause they're both contortionists. So like they're just like busy putting their head on their butt like it's no big deal. And they were so supportive and proud and not only in that moment was I thankful for having them in my life, but I was also thankful that I have an organization that was teaching those teenagers, like how to be good people. So, yeah, so I was, I was super supported and once I finally was back in the air, I was able to-- there was a role in the next show that was primarily a ground roll with a little bit of aerial in a way that we were able to kind of avoid the injury while I was still healing. And while it was still, you know, getting strength back and, and that was, yeah, that was probably the most important role I've ever played in my entire life.

[00:22:25]And it just, it all just worked out and it's, it's taken awhile to kind of get past it emotionally as well. And I still have a little bit of PTSD from the whole thing. I cannot watch bones break. I used to be able to watch it on TV, no big deal. Now I cannot, and injuries are harder for me to deal with, but it also has given me some space on the ground to learn how to coach. That's the time that I got to take, take time to learn how to coach and be a good coach. And now that's a really positive part of my experience with aerial is being able to coach. So yeah.

[00:23:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you touched on something really, really important that the community is vital and I've always appreciated, admired that about Kansas City Aerial Arts, but it's not the only arts organization that's like that of essentially building a family of people who are staunch supporters of each other, no matter what happens and you know, are going to be there through thick and thin. And, unfortunately not every organization is like that, but to find a community like that is, is special and worth holding on to.

[00:23:44] Meghan Spencer: Yeah. Yeah. And we, we know that it's, that it's not normal, and I'm not really sure how we cultivated it. And that's the thing I think about a lot is, "How did we, how do we do it? How do we make this place?" 'Cause it wasn't always like this. and if I could, if I could bottle that, that would be amazing. Because there's a lot of arts, I mean--coming from a competitive dance world where it wasn't that supportive, and I don't have the same feelings of just like family that loves each other, no matter what, like that's just not how it was. And I still have, I still had a very positive experience, but it just wasn't that thing, because we were consistently competing against each other all the time for everything. And not even just the studios against each other, which those girls in the other studios, I still like went to school with. But also even within the, within the same studio. So it's, it hasn't been my art experience always because of the competition. And because in theater you still have to try out and you still have to audition against, you know, the other people that also want those roles. And even those, those elements exist in this company somehow it has maintained its ability to be a hundred percent supportive, a hundred percent of the time. And if I could make all of the arts feel the way that this feels, I would do it in a heartbeat.

[00:25:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah. No, it's, it is special. It is very special. So I'm just curious, do any stories stand out to you as being particularly funny? Like, do you have any, you know, backstage moments, stories, or even onstage moments where something happened that you were like, "Hmm, that wasn't intentional."

[00:25:40] Meghan Spencer: My freshman year of high school, I was in "West Side Story," and this was my first, it wasn't like a big role, but it was my first like really big acting experience. And I love "West Side Story," 'cause it was a dance show and it was a love show. And I played the youngest girl in our little group and I was dating the youngest boy in our little group. And he was actually a year younger than me in real life, and it's so funny 'cause now he's much taller, since he's grown up, but we had a little dance moment in the dance scene and we, he did like a cheek to cheek thing. And on opening night, my then-boyfriend, now-husband was sitting in the front row, because he's so sweet and we, something happened where like we missed our cheek to cheek moment, like just a weird split second. And what ended up happening was my lipstick then got smeared all over the side of my face and his face. Hardcore looked like we've been making out.

[00:26:54] And I was 16. And when I got off stage and like saw my face, I was mortified because I was like, "Oh my gosh, my new boyfriend!" And, oh my gosh, and he didn't even notice. And now, now it's just funny, yeah, that, and I think like I have a lot of just like great backstage memories of theater in high school. My, my best friend and I called it the "Blue Light Chronicles," because for those of you that don't know, you use blue lights backstage because it helps you see, but that light doesn't travel into the audience. And so like we still, to this day, we'll like talk about "Blue Light Chronicles" of like all the random stuff that happened backstage in high school and theater. And that stuff is really entertaining, especially since most of those people have now grown up and like have children of their own. It's very entertaining.

[00:27:51] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome,  and I love that title. I feel like you two should write a book and get contributors, you know, of these stories that are just so memorable, because I love the fact that, as an audience member, you get to see the final product and  you don't necessarily even realize the hours and hours that go into it. But for those on the opposite side-- I joke a lot because people say, "Oh, it's such a glamorous job." I'm like, I mean, I mean, it is glamorous in some senses, but, but there's a lot that goes into it. But you know, it's just funny and sweat and tears and all the things.

[00:28:34] Meghan Spencer: Yeah. And that's what for me, I think that part about it is one of my favorite parts. Like every single time we get into tech week, and I'm like, "Oh my God, it's tech week. It's going to be exhausting." And the last time my husband was like, "Shut up. You love it." Like, because I do like late nights at the theater where, like, all my favorite people are stuck, hanging out with me for extended periods of time, like in the same space, is my favorite. Yeah, it's exhausting, but it's also so, so fun. And when you're that tired, it's the silliest things happen. Yeah, that's like my favorite part about it. Obviously I love the performances themselves, but also the experience of putting it on and all the things that happen backstage and all the things that have to go right to make it happen. And, I, that stuff I'm super into it.

[00:29:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yes. It makes the experience very well-rounded and incredibly meaningful. No, I agree. I love, I love tech week. I love performing and, and it just makes it all so great. Well, I have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests if that's okay with you.

[00:29:54] Meghan Spencer: Of course.

[00:29:55] Lindsey Dinneen: So the first one is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:30:02]Meghan Spencer: I think art is communicating to the outside world a feeling emotion or something else you want to say, because it can be tangible. It can be movement. It can be makeup. It can be--there's a lot of, there's a lot of ways that art can take forms, but it's always about communicating something.

[00:30:35]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:30:40] Meghan Spencer: I think creation, and this is something that I've been thinking about a lot, actually in the last, in the last year. And even in the last six months as we've been dealing with all, all the crazy that is 2020. I think for me, especially, but I think for artists in general, creation is the part that matters. And we have this like funny joke at our studio of saying, "Well, that's a choice." And normally it means like you're doing something silly or weird or whatever. But at its core, it really means that as an artist, your choices are all that matter. And I can have an opinion about your choices, but at the end of the day, they're your choices to make. And making those choices of how you want to make the art that you're making is on you, and whether or not other people like it or agree with it, or even understand it, doesn't really matter.

[00:31:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Excellent. And then, and I'll define my terms a little bit here, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by those terms I'm referring to a, with inclusive, an artist is sort of inviting you into the process, whether that's giving you a backstory or program notes, a title. It doesn't have to be extensive. Just something to give the viewer or participant a little more context to what they've created as an artist. Versus exclusive referring more to someone who presents their art to the world, but there's not necessarily any context or explanation behind it. So, it's more for the viewer to take from it what they will.

[00:32:40] Meghan Spencer: I think that interestingly enough, this ties right back to your last question, that that is just one more choice that an artist gets to make. And whether or not the information that's given can be part of the art because if someone doesn't want you to have any information and just wants you to experience the thing in whatever form it is, then that's part of it too. I think one of my biggest frustrations in life has been someone asking me to describe what an artist is thinking. And this happens a lot, especially in like literary forms. But I don't, I don't think that's my job. I think my job is to experience the thing and then I get to have my own opinions on it.

[00:33:32] And if that experience includes some sort of information to help guide my experience, then that's great. But if the artist doesn't want to include that, then they don't have to. and like we're working on a show-- well, we were supposed to perform this show in April and it got postponed to next April-- but it's--our aerial shows, as with most traditional dance shows--there's no speaking. And this show in particular had a more complicated storyline than we've ever done before. So we used voiceovers so that the audience has an experience where they understand what's going on. And we could have chosen to not help them understand, but in this, in this instance, we made the choice to help them understand what was happening in that way.

[00:34:22]But also, I think some artists enjoy their art to stand alone, and something we tell our students when they're creating acts and building pieces is that they have to make choices. They don't have to be choices that the audience understands. Your audience member--in terms of the way that we normally perform, where we just, you know, set up our rig and get in the air and do the thing and people are there and we never interact with them in any way-- they are not probably going to know the story you're telling, because all they have is your performance and your music. And sometimes those things are just not enough to tell your story, but if you have a story in your heart and in your head, they're going to feel something. And they may not even feel what you feel, but they're going to feel something.

[00:35:14] And that's the thing that matters the most, I think, is to create something that as, as I said before, communicates, and most of the time, especially with the art, I'm making a lot of it has to do with emotion. With my wedding photography, I take it really seriously because I have one photo from my grandparents' wedding. And I was raised with my mom and my grandparents. So my grandparents were like extra, extra close to me growing up. And I only have one photo. It's on my wall in my hallway because that's the start of, you know, my family. And I think that those moments, they matter. And being able to share those moments, you know, with each other, for the rest of your life.

[00:36:08] That's always, my goal is to create imagery that my clients want to hang on the walls for the rest of their life, so that when they're having a tough day in their marriage, which happens in all, all of our marriages, they can look up at the wall and they can see those photos. And remember why they started the thing in the first place. And so even in that commercial side of art, I'm still hoping to create emotions that carry with them through their entire marriage and then honestly, probably into the lives of their children and grandchildren. And so I think for me, it's about making people feel something. And if giving information makes them feel more, than great. But it's not like I like describe what's happening in my wedding photos. Right? Like you can, you can see those moments. And for me, that's enough.

[00:37:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Great answer. And I love your insight into your own, the way that you want to communicate to other people. But I love that perspective. That's, I've not heard it yet spoken quite like that. So that was gorgeous.

[00:37:23]Meghan Spencer: Thanks!

[00:37:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, well again, Megan, thank you so very much for joining us today. I so appreciate it. And I just want to say on behalf of myself and our audience, but also, the world as a whole, thank you for sharing art, because I really do believe in the power that art has to make the world a better, more beautiful, more inclusive place. And I think that when you give and provide that, it's really special. So I want to thank you personally for bringing so many different kinds of art to the world. I think that's wonderful.

[00:38:02] Meghan Spencer: Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, but the thing too is that it's not only benefiting those around you, but it benefits, you know, you as a person too. So all of that, all of that art in my life has definitely positively influenced my life as well.

[00:38:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And if people want to get in touch with you, either for your photography business, or maybe try to come see a show or something like that, is there a way for them to connect?

[00:38:31] Meghan Spencer: Yeah. So for photography, my business is Spencer Studios. You can follow me on Facebook or Instagram. On Instagram, my handle is @spencerstudios. And my website is www.spencerstudiosphotography.com. And then for aerial, if you would like to book an aerial performance, you can check out KansasCityAerialArts.com. And if you want to interact with me, then the best place to do that is probably on Instagram. And my handle is aerialist.meghan, spelled M E G H A N.

[00:39:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, thank you again, Meghan, so very much for joining us. I loved your insights and your stories, and completely agree with you that capturing the moments that matter is really important. And I love the way that you said all of that. So thank you one more time for you being here, and thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:42] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In this episode, I welcome Kent Rader! Kent is known as the World's Cleanest Comedian, and he is also a motivational speaker and author of the book, "Let It Go, Just Let It Go" about how to deal with stress. From his background of accounting to his professional speaking career and everything in between, Kent shares what fires him up about the arts. 

Get in touch with Kent Rader: www.kentraderspeaks.com | https://www.facebook.com/Kent-Rader-130340647028349 | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT77fL6ZiPfx7lyCLAmDgog 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod

Episode 19 - Kent Rader

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience  as so beautiful.

[00:00:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today the absolutely  wonderful Kent Rader, and Kent is the world's cleanest comedian. He is also a motivational speaker, a accountant, and so much more. And Kent, thank you so much for being here. I am just delighted that you are here with us.

[00:01:02] Kent Rader: Well, thank you for having me, Lindsay. I've missed talking to you.

[00:01:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I know!

[00:01:08] Kent Rader: I'm not a very good accountant. Okay. We probably ouught to clarify that, but yeah.

[00:01:17]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I'm sure this will come out a little bit more in your story because this is one of the things that I think is so great about just how you have changed careers and kind of developed into who you are today and all of that. But, Kent, do you mind just sharing a little bit about your background? 

[00:01:34] Kent Rader: Yeah, not at all. I went to William Jewell College in Liberty, Missouri and graduated, went into accounting 'cause that was, you know, I needed a job and did it for 17 years and I was, I just, you know, it was a job and that's all it was. And, but I was fortunate. I went, I went back into public accounting at a time when home care agencies were really changing their payment mechanism for Medicare and they needed to know how to do a budget, needed to know how to read a financial statement. And so I was asked by all these home care associations around the country to do programs on it.

[00:02:09] And it was so dry. I mean, talking about double entry accounting and how it flows into it. And so I started telling stories and the audiences laughed and I thought, I just love that. And so, we got to a point to where I knew I was going to have to do something different. And I told my wife, I was on the verge of becoming a partner in the accounting firm, and I was offered it one day and I came home and I said to Twyla--my wife Twyla--I said, "I just don't want it." And she said, "What do you want to do?" And I said, "I want to be a speaker." And she said, "Then be a speaker." And I said, "You know, we may be passing up a fortune and I'll never, and it's the sweetest thing you've ever said to me."

[00:02:49] She said, "Your happiness is more important than all the money you'll ever make. So I started being a speaker and I was teaching, I did some financial programs, but then I really had an interest in health. I'd run my entire life and I had a lot of interest in stress. And so I developed a program on how to reduce stress and wrote a book called, "Let It Go, Just Let It Go" on reducing stress, but then it really evolved into how humor helps us reduce stress. And I thought, "Well, I want to get more funny." So I started going to an open mic night to comedy clubs, which was, that was the extent, Lindsey, of, of my idea was "Okay, I'll do open mic nights and learn how to write and learn how to be funnier." And, it takes years to do that.

[00:03:34] And so by the time I finally thought had a handle on it. I'm headlining clubs and I started working in theaters, just doing standup. And so my career really evolved into 50/50 speaking at conferences, mostly for healthcare and education associations, and the other half doing live shows of just stand-up comedy in theaters. And because I worked clean, I could take all the material from my standup and move it right into speaking. It was appropriate, and it's been a long... as the Grateful Dead said, a long, strange trip. So.

[00:04:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I would love to touch on something because you do talk a lot about the fact that you are the world's cleanest comedian. And so what does that mean to you?  I'm sure there's an intention behind it. So do you mind just sharing sort of what got you to that point?

[00:04:27] Kent Rader: Not at all. And my original thought was I needed to be clean because the material I was writing I wanted to move into the speaking and you had to be super clean to be, you have to be super clean to be a speaker, but quite by accident I realized that you'd never really find what's truly funny unless you work clean. And, and Chris Rock, who I've known for a long time, he came up to me two or three years ago. And he said, "You know, I talk about you and Vic Henley"--who unfortunately just passed away this year--he said, "because I tell people, work on the material and make it clean. 'Cause you don't know what's truly funny unless it's clean and then you can dirty it up later if you want to."

[00:05:05] Well, I've never really wanted to dirty it up, so I just kept it clean.  I have nothing against profanity, as you know, from being my friend, I swear like a sailor when we're not in a different venue, but I don't want profanity to be the punchline, you know? And that, that's the thing that people don't understand about  Dave Chappelle or Carlin. You could have taken out every profane word and the material was still funny. And too many comedians today think, "Oh, all I have to do is swear or talk about sex on stage. And, and it'll be funny." I mean, yeah, you'll get a laugh, but it isn't truly funny. You know, if you take all that out, what do you have? You still have to, in my opinion, you still have to have some content.

[00:05:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I love that because like you said, that's made your stories very easily transferable to many different opportunities that you've had to speak and things. So it's not like you have to reinvent the wheel every time, you know?

[00:06:01] Kent Rader: Right. And we talk about, about artists--too many comedians have-- and I think we've talked about this personally--too many comedians have a... they have a mindset of poverty. You know, I, I can't make a lot of money or I'm not an artist and that's just not true. You have to find a venue where you can make a better wage or living wage, if you will. You don't have to live with poverty to do it. And so one of the ways that you can do it in comedy is to be clean because people will pay higher ticket prices to come see a clean show. They will, you can be on television without having to change anything you do. Network television, I should say. And, and you'll find out--Jim Gaffigan's a great example.  Jim has always worked clean, and I've known Jim for awhile too. He's a great example of someone who's, who's reached a pinnacle because he's working clean.

[00:06:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, he's fantastic. And it's, it's nice, especially for those of us who don't necessarily want to hear all those, what feels like it becomes kind of gratuitous instead of just the material that is funny, like you said, on its own, and it doesn't need that. So.

[00:07:16] Kent Rader: Exactly.

[00:07:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that's great. Well, and speaking of sort of the money aspect of it, I've chatted with a couple of artists, especially people that maybe are painters or things like that, but  did you ever have a difficult time putting a price on your art, per se? 'Cause I know that that's a common theme of, well, I've been doing this my whole life and it doesn't feel like I should charge this much.  How do you navigate that?

[00:07:42] Kent Rader: How I navigated it was looking at what other people in my world, other performers, what they were charging. And I remember, you know, the first time I asked for a certain dollar amount, a friend of mine, Mark LeBlanc, said ask for $500 more than you're comfortable as far as the speaking engagement goes, ask for $500 more than you're comfortable with asking. I would have a dollar amount and at some point I'd screw up my courage and ask for $500 more than and they would either accept it or reject it. But most of the time they just accepted it. And so I built my fees up in that regard, but first by looking at what people were charging, and then kinda as I looked at the speakers, you know, very few were as funny as I was, because very few had taken the pains to go to comedy clubs and do a midnight show and go through all of that in order to learn how to be funny.

[00:08:39] I mean, they may have a two-minute set up and one joke, and mine are, you know, seven, eight, 10 jokes a minute. And so that that's how I developed that. I think getting out of your comfort of what you're asking for is a huge, a huge part. And once you receive that money, now you begin to get comfortable with that money. And at some point as you improve, you say, okay, I want to ask for a little bit more and you know, maybe 10% or 20%. And once when somebody accepts that it becomes the norm, you know. But you, you have a skill and it's not a skill like in accounting, but I mean the way you can perform with your body as a dancer, is something that I will never be able to do, and watching the beauty of that, and I should pay to see the beauty of that.

[00:09:37] And so, yeah, I think find what other people in your level are charging and then start working your fees up. And, and of course, after, after this, after the COVID is over, I don't know that we'll have any idea what fees will be. We'll deal with that. Then we may have to start over, who knows, but we'll deal with that then. But yeah, that's how I did it. And of course I'm an accountant, so you know, that, that  made perfect sense to me. I mean, I have a friend out in Kansas who, she's a wonderful speaker and she will not charge, she will not charge what she's worth. I mean, she brings home for speaking engagement and just as much headache of traveling as I have, and she'll bring home, you know, 25% of what I'm making, and it's because she doesn't see the value in what she's delivering to these people, and she has tremendous value. And you have a skill that a whole lot of people can't do, or if they could, we'd have a whole lot more people in the arts that we don't and, and you need to be paid for.

[00:10:46]Lindsey Dinneen: Amen. I hope everyone listening heard all of that. Because there is so much value to the arts and, you know, and obviously those who have listened to this podcast for a while, kind of know my stance on it and how much I know that the arts can have such a, such a beautiful impact on people's lives and on culture and, and, and the change that it can bring in. So. But the, the people that create that, they are providing something of value. And so, yeah, getting paid for that is important.

[00:11:22] Kent Rader: And there is no reward for being a starving artist. There is nothing of merit about being a starving artist. I mean, our, our daughter, Maggie is, you know, is a Shakespearian actress, and yet she has more money in the bank most of the time than I have because she's good with money, but she makes people pay her for her art. And her husband, Justin, is good too, because he makes people pay him for his art. He's also a performer.  And, you know, if Shakespeare were easy to do, we would all do it and read it, you know, but when, when Shakespeare play that Maggie does you understand it as well as you would understand a movie or a play that was written today because she understands what Shakespeare wanted to do. And she understands the rhythm and the rhyme of Shakespeare. And it's beautiful. I have a joke about her being a Shakespearian actress and I cite two Shakespeare lines in that joke. And she one day corrected me on how to say it. And when she did that line I had been saying for two or three years made all the sense in the world, and she said, you pause here. And I thought, "Oh yeah, that makes sense 'cause I just run it all together." I knew the words, but I didn't know. I wasn't portraying the meaning of it. 

[00:12:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Well, and I think that speaks to your due diligence. Something that I've really admired about learning about how you work, and that is-- I'll let you explain it more-- but one of the things that I've been impressed with is that when Kent does a show, he doesn't just say, "Okay, wahoo!" And then go party afterwards. He, as he'll share, goes back to his hotel room or back home and starts reviewing what he did, what worked, what didn't, tweaking things. So he is a true professional in that he's constantly also working on his art. He's not just satisfied with where he is. Does that, is that correct?

[00:13:29] Kent Rader: It is. And, and the one thing I do--that probably even most comedians don't do--I write every day. I don't write productively every day. A lot of it's junk, you know, but I do, I have a time every day where I spend two to three hours just writing and then the process I have, which has been interrupted with the COVID, is once I have something written, I take it into a comedy club usually just doing a guest set. So I do 10 minutes, you know, walk in and do 10 minutes with the show and, or I still do four or five weeks a year in comedy clubs where I can do an hour set and string some of that newer material together. I do it. I record it. I take it, like you say, back to my hotel room and I listen to it.

[00:14:14] I see what works and what doesn't work. And then the next morning when I'm writing, I rework the stuff that isn't working, take it back into the comedy club, work on it or record it that night, take it back to the hotel, listen to it, rewrite it.

[00:14:29] After World War II a guy named W. Deming went to Japan to rebuild the Japanese economy, and he had developed something called the Circle of Continuous Quality Improvement. And basically it's a circle that you have an idea, you implement the idea, you put it into your product. Then you ask your customer how they like it and whatever they don't like, you go back to the idea, you improve it, you change the product, you ask the customer again, how do you like it? And that's how Toyota and Honda became two of the biggest auto makers in the world is that back when I was a kid, Toyotas had a connotation of being a junky car, but they kept improving it all over those years. And now they have some of the best quality cars in the world. And so that's what, that was the idea with mine is that you improve it every night.

[00:15:22] And it's never done.  My wife is an art teacher and she said that is the sign of a true artist. You are never happy with it. You know, it is never done. I just really rewrote something I've been doing for 16 or 17 years, rewrote the line, took two words out and it, and it's hard to do because I've got it in my memory in a different way, but it works better. So you're constantly improving the material, constantly improving the product. And too many people, too many comedians ,get an hour of material and then quit writing, you know?

[00:15:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:15:57] Kent Rader: I don't know how they do this because you could be better. You could, you could do better.

[00:16:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Yeah. Well, I think that's something that I've always personally loved about my art form in particular, but all art forms are like this, of there's no way to reach a level of perfection. So you have to continue. You know, it's just not a thing, you can't. And so you just keep striving for excellence and you keep honing your technique and, you know, that means going and making yourself do the technique class by yourself, in your garage. That's me right now, you know, just otherwise you, you are stagnant.

[00:16:39]Kent Rader: Your art you're passionate about, and I'm passionate about mine and it is, it is a passion. And so it's not work to me. You know, I, I love the idea that I have two hours or three hours to write. And, the Saturday shows are hard for me because I've usually had a Friday show. And I've traveled after the show to a new hotel and I get in at two or three in the morning, so I sleep there and then I get up and I, I need to run and I need to work. I need to write and I need to get to another show. And, that cuts into my writing time. And I miss that, you know, I miss it. I spend a lot of time backstage once I get to a show and do the soundcheck, I spend another hour writing before it. So it's a, it's it's part of my life and it's an important part about it. It is a big part of my life.

[00:17:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so to that point, I'm just curious, because since you're constantly working and reworking and all those kinds of things, has there ever been a time where you've had this show memorized and then you're working on something else, do you ever kind of get off flow that way of thinking about the new material?

[00:17:48] Kent Rader: Yeah,  I can leave out whole segments of a story, because when you do new material,  you sandwich it in between two pieces you know that work. You know, so you've got this story that you've been doing for five years. It works great. You got another story that you've been doing for seven years. It worked great. So take the new piece and stick it in between the two, because you know, there are only two or three minutes. If I lose the audience, I know I'm going to get them back with the next story. So it's fine, but I can be so focused on that new thing, that the piece in front of it, I can leave out half of it, you know? Because my mind is not there. My mind is on the new, new material. And so Twyla will listen to a recording and she'll go, "Oh my gosh, he left out two whole minutes." I go, "Yeah, I know." It's an odd thing in my mind, what I'm doing . But the audience probably doesn't know that.

[00:18:39] One time I had to do a show and they were, had a dinner in front of it and they were struggling to get the dinner served. And the lady said, "You know, we've got stuff after you. And, and so we're going to have to go on." And eating and comedy don't work well together. And so, I said, "OK, it's your show." And they're still eating, so they're not listening. And then after they quit eating, I get them back. And there's a 45 minute show, probably. So 20 minutes of it, they're still eating. And so it's struggles, you know, and then the last 25 minutes everything's great. And she comes up to me and she tells me what a great show it was. I go, "Are you kidding me? You have no idea how good this show could have been had they not been eating." You know?

[00:19:22] No, that was just, that's back to me. You know, it's like, you know, it could be a lot better, but back to being paid, you have to do what the person who's paying you. And that's why you're a professional. You know, you have to be able to overcome all of those things that the person who's paying you, the obstacles they throw in front of you... You know, one things I hate to do is take an intermission in a show, because comedy builds on itself, and you have to, it's like starting all over, but I understand that theaters need the revenue from the drinks to survive. And so I'll take an intermission and how I did it was I built a second opening three minutes. So it's like I'm starting all over with a new opening and it work. I don't enjoy it, but the theater and the audience do.

[00:20:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and back to Twyla, because I know that she has always been obviously very supportive of what you do, and I think that's incredible, but I just have to ask: so when you run new material by her, is she like your greatest advocate, and just like laughs because she's so supportive, or is she also your greatest critic and says, "Yeah, that's silly."

[00:20:33] Kent Rader: She's my greatest critic and I mean that... she and Maggie will tell me the truth. Okay. That's what I need. Everything I write is the greatest thing ever written according to my mother, you know, and that feels good. Because your mother should support you that way, but that's not what helps me. Twyla laughs at -- it's funny-- she laughs at very little at what I say. You know, now she'll laugh at a show because she's with the audience. But when she does laugh at something, then I have to keep it in there. Oh, Stephen King wrote a book called "On Writing," and it's about his process of writing. And he said he had an ideal reader, which is his wife, who is a poet and that's who he writes for. And that's who I write for.  I write to make Twyla laugh.

[00:21:22] And if Twyla laughs at it, and Maggie thinks it's good, then I'm good with it. I had a bit about Maggie when she was in high school, and I run everything past my family if it's about them, I run it all past them to ask them if it's okay. 'Cause I wouldn't want to hurt somebody. I wouldn't want to hurt my loved one's feelings for something I've, you know, for a joke. I wrote something about, about Maggie when she was a senior in high school, and she said, "You know, you're fine to do it. It doesn't bother me, but it's not funny." And I thought, "Oh, she's just saying that, you know, she's 18." And so I did it for every night for a month and it tanked every night. And I finally admited to her, "You're right. It isn't funny."

[00:22:05] No, but I wrote something the other day and I wrote up a little piece about this woman that spoke at one of the conventions. And she, she said she believed that every household should have one vote in the election. And her quote was, "In a godly household, the man would have the final say." Which is something I completely disagreed with. And my joke is, "I think her husband ought to tell her to shut up." And I thought, and I thought that was way over the line, okay. I said it to Twyla and she laughed out loud and I had to, and I made a comment. So don't blame me. I, I just thought of it, Twyla's the one who laughed, you know? And so it's her fault that it's here. She's a critic in the good way. And Maggie is as well. But I need that. I need that honesty from them and it comes from a place of, they want the best for me. You know, my son Keith is not critical of me. And I think he was afraid he would hurt my feelings. Now he will, and he would speak up if it was something really, really bad. Maggie will tell me the truth and Twyla will tell me the truth and that's what I need.

[00:23:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I'm curious, are there any particular stories that come to mind as far as maybe of your own experience as a comedian, something that happened that comes to mind as being either meaningful or funny or, or whatever? Or from your own perspective of having viewed other art or anything that just like really stands out to you as far as, you know, an interaction with art essentially.

[00:23:40] Kent Rader: Like I said, my wife is an art teacher and, so she, she appreciates visual art much more than I do. And that's what I love about your, I cannot fathom how you write a dance. And be able to visualize that in your head of the movement. And I can't understand, I have no concept of how someone takes a landscape or a picture or an idea of somebody's face and then can put that onto a canvas, but Twyla can. And so she loved Georgia O'Keeffe, and we'd go to New Mexico and they have a Georgia O'Keeffe museum. And one, I remember Georgia O'Keeffe said, let's see... "To create one's own world in the arts takes a lot of courage." And I thought that's what it really took for me was a lot of courage to leave a steady job.

[00:24:32] And I would never have known that had I not been with Twyla and tried to understand the visual arts of painting and pottery. I love the movement of your art, even though if you've seen me perform, I stand there. I don't move, you know? But one of the things that, that I was, I wrote, let's see, I did a thing about... oh, I know... I did a thing about our grandson playing video games. And so when I perform it on stage, I have my head down and I'm put my thumbs together and I'm punching my thumbs, like a kid playing a video game. And so every time I talk, I'm standing there and then every time I'm having Kai talk, I've got my head down, punching a video games and Maggie saw me on TV one time and said, "Where did you learn about anchoring?"

[00:25:29] And I'll go "Anchoring? I don't know anything about anchoring." And she goes, "Oh, that's something that Shakespeare had developed 400 years ago." Was that you? I anchored the character because every time I've got my head down and doing my thumbs, I don't have to say "Kai said this." I just say it because the audience understands why I'm standing there. And so, you know, it's amazing that I came up with an idea that Shakespeare came up with 400 years ago, you know, and she told me all the ways you can anchor. It's through speech or voice or gesture or whatever. And so, I mean, Keith Richards says there's only like 12 songs in the world. Everything else is a offshoot of those 12. And it's amazing though, how we, how we learn sometimes on our own and sometimes from other artists about things. Or the perfection thing I learned quite from, from Twyla talking about that so many artists painters, especially where they've found works after they were dead, that were never finished because their art is never finished.

[00:26:37]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Excellent.

[00:26:39] Kent Rader: I rambled on.

[00:26:42] Lindsey Dinneen: No, no, I love it. And I think that it's interesting because you have a unique background and perspective. And then with having Twyla have bringing in all of her art and then your daughter and son-in-law with their art. And it's just, you've got such a rich atmosphere to work from. And that's really cool.

[00:27:03] Kent Rader: It is. And I think that that when you have artists, when you are around artists, you learn from them and you're encouraged by them as well, and you're supported by them. That's one of the things I loved about last year's Fringe Festival was you guys came and saw me and I went and saw you. And I, I love that, that we were supportive enough of each other. And I don't understand your, I mean, I could never do your art. I, one of the musicians did a thing of all new songs and it was beautiful. And it was a beautiful setting and it was beautiful music. And I thought I couldn't do that if, in a thousand years, but I enjoyed it. And I learned from it, I learned from the process. So yeah.  I think it's important we support each other.

[00:27:52]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I absolutely agree. That's something that I've always really appreciated about the Fringe Festival is the atmosphere of we're all in this together and we're just manifesting in different ways essentially. But, I mean, I had a great time. I went to go see Kent and had a great time at his show and then he came to support my show, but we, we all kind of support each other within the community, which is really amazing. And I think that it helps, maybe indirectly, but it helps our own art forms when we can watch and absorb the things that, you know, another artist does so well and you think, "Oh, I wonder how I could utilize that somehow." Or, or for you, maybe you're getting new material because you're watching something, and then that sparks an idea. And, so every little interaction that you have with art can be really impactful in a different way.

[00:28:45] Kent Rader: Right. Well, I'm glad you said that because one of the things that every writer and I think probably, I don't know, I'm sure every comedian--we have thousands of little post-it notes everywhere of ideas, you know? And, and when you go see, I always have a notebook with me and a pen, even when I walk or when I am at a show, because that sparks an idea and you think you'll remember it, but you won't. So write it down. And then come back and use it in your own creation. And I, and that has been important. And a lot of mine is junk. I had a post-it note on my car dashboard. And Twyla saw it the other day and she goes, "What does that mean?" And I thought, "Well, I'm not really sure anymore." It was a great idea when I came up with it. I didn't make it detailed enough, I guess.

[00:29:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, right! Oh my word. But yes, I think that happens to all of us. Well, It's funny because I have a personal antidote of being on the receiving end of this. So, last year after Kent came and saw our production, we ended up being able to connect and get together and actually start forming a friendship, and the first, the first day he brought his--was it your program that you had written all over?--or maybe it was a note, but anyway, I was peppered with questions and I loved it because it was so fun to get to share a little bit more about the process and, and just sort of talk to each other about, "Oh yeah! What do you think about this?" And, but yeah, the notebook is real, folks.

[00:30:31] Kent Rader: I'm fascinated with how people write or create, I guess, more importantly. And, and so when I see a show, I was fascinated how you see that. Or do you see, you know, do you see that? Or do you, 'cause I'm so much verbal and all mine is, is in words, but occasionally I will see a movement that I want to do. But not, not an hour, not an hour of total movement of 30 people, so yeah. And how does someone, how does someone come up with that? You know, my brain doesn't work that way.  Thank goodness your brain works that way 'cause it was beautiful.

[00:31:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. But my brain doesn't work the same way yours does to create your art. So you know, it's all good.

[00:31:21] Kent Rader: Yeah. But we can appreciate other art as well.

[00:31:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, right, exactly. Well, Kent, I have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're game for that.   The first is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:31:40] Kent Rader: Art, art to me is something that you created that is unique to you. And there's a difference in my mind between art and success. Too many people want to be successful, so they recreate something somebody else has created or they mimic something else that somebody else has created. And that isn't art to me. Success, I mean, how do you define success? You know, it's more important that it's unique and that it's personal to me.  And I remember a turning point in my life as an artist was stop making it about your success and make it about bringing joy and happiness to an audience.  That was a huge turning point, but also it had to be so personal and so come from me. I want it to be so much about my life that nobody else could make it theirs, but they could relate to it as well.

[00:32:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:32:54]Kent Rader: I think to bring joy and happiness and a different end, to bring a different perspective, but especially today, we have a lot of difficulty in the world and if we can help someone through that, that's what I think we should be doing.

[00:33:09]Lindsey Dinneen: I wholeheartedly agree. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive meaning that the artist shares a little bit about what inspired the art, whether it's a backstory or a title or program notes or something to give a little bit of context to what they're putting out in the world. Versus exclusive referring to an artist creating something and sharing it with the world, but not providing any background. So it's solely up to the participant or viewer to come up with their own interpretation.

[00:33:57] Kent Rader: Well, I, I would say inclusive. I can see both points of view, because if you were exclusive, you would want that part, you would want to give them what you've created and let it be theirs then. I find great joy in understanding what went into that. And I think that's probably why I peppered you with all these questions.  I wanted to know what went into that. I'm not a big Eric Clapton fan. But I saw a documentary and how he came up with what "Layla," what the song "Layla" meant to him. He was in love and the woman was married and didn't, you know, it's a difficult situation. And once I heard that, I fell in love with the song, "Layla," you know, and when I hear what went into this piece of art, Maggie's working on something that Charles Dickens wrote and a remake of "Great Expectations." And when she told me what Charles Dickens was going through, "Great Expectations" had a whole different meaning to me than what it had when I read it 30 years ago. And so I think for me, I want people to know what went into that. So yeah, definitely inclusive for me, but I can see both sides of both viewpoints.

[00:35:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. And I love asking all these questions, because like art, it's all subjective and it it's completely up to the person, you know? And I think that's such a valuable thing about art is that there's lots of avenues to enjoy it. 

[00:35:34] Kent Rader: Right. Yeah, without a doubt.

[00:35:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, we don't all have to agree, you know, that's okay.

[00:35:41] Kent Rader: If we all agreed, what good is art?

[00:35:44]Lindsey Dinneen:  There you go. I once heard that-- and I'm going to blank on his name, but he's an author--and he said that if he doesn't get at least 10% bad reviews of the works that he creates, he feels like he's not been true to himself because if you're everything to everybody, then that's not being honest with who you are. And I really love that.

[00:36:04] Kent Rader: Right. You know, I have people come to the show, don't enjoymy shows, and that's okay because I'm not for everybody.  Yeah, there are comedians that I don't enjoy, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be artists and they shouldn't be comedians.

[00:36:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, Kent, first of all, thank you so very much for joining me and for being on the podcast. I really appreciate your time. I would love, you know, if people could connect with you or see some of your work. I know you have lots of avenues for that. Are there some good ways for any of our listeners to connect with you?

[00:36:39] Kent Rader: Yeah, the best way is probably through my website, kentraderspeaks.com. And I do a daily thing on Amazon called "Laughter Matters," which is just a one to two minute piece on something funny that hopefully bring everybody a laugh and so you can look it up on Amazon, on their Daily Flash Briefing. It's called "Laughter Matters." So both of those are great ways. And then, if you go to kentraderspeaks.com, when we get back to performing live, we'll have dates on there as well.

[00:37:06]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And you have some clips and things like that too on your website?

[00:37:11] Kent Rader: There are, they're on the website. And there's a YouTube channel Comedian Kent Rader that you can see them as well.

[00:37:16]Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. Well, thank you again so much, and thank you for being brave and for having taken that big leap of faith, back in the day, so to speak and, and then continuing to  hone and craft your art. I think that you do bring your audiences a lot of joy. I'm privileged to have seen, I think a couple shows now, but I just really appreciate you. And, so, so thank you. Thank you for sharing art with the world.

[00:37:43] Kent Rader: Thank you. And the other thing about art is it takes awhile. Don't give up on it. You know, I mean it takes years and that's okay. No matter how long it takes us to do it, it's good. But thank you. Thank you for having me. Like I said, you're always a joy to be around.

[00:37:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Thanks! Well, and folks, thank you so much for listening too, and if you have a story to share with us, we'd love to hear that, but also, just if you are as inspired as I am after listening to this episode, I'd love if you'd share with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:38:22] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In this episode, I welcome Trenna Reed! Trenna is a professional dancer, choreographer, teacher, and the Program Coordinator for the Kansas City Fringe Festival. She shares about the various art forms she's gotten to be a part of, as well as the ins and outs of being on the adminstrative side of the arts. 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart 

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Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 18 - Trenna Reed

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you and you're enjoying doing it, and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, the wonderful Trenna Reed, and Trenna is a artist. She is also, oh my goodness, what should we call you? Like Administrative Organizer Extraordinaire. And there's like an actual job title for you, and I don't want to butcher it, but that's you in my mind...

[00:01:00]Trenna Reed:  I usually just say Program Coordinator...

[00:01:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, okay! Alright!

[00:01:03] Trenna Reed: To put a name to it.

[00:01:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect.

[00:01:05] Trenna Reed: It's basically like, I would say an assistant to the ever fabulous Cheryl Kimmi.

[00:01:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes. And we'll definitely share a little bit more about that. But also Trenna is an accomplished dancer, choreographer and teacher, and is a lover of the arts in general. And she shares them with the world in a pretty unique way and in kind of an administrative capacity for the Kansas City Fringe Festival. And so I am so excited to have you on. Thank you, Trenna, for joining us today.

[00:01:40] Trenna Reed: Yes, of course. I'm very excited to be here.

[00:01:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and I'd love for you to just tell us a little bit about yourself and maybe what kind of different arts you dabble in and just, yeah, share with us who you are. Thank you.

[00:01:54] Trenna Reed: Absolutely. Well, art is in my family in several capacities. So my mother is a dance teacher and we still teach dance together to this day, which is really amazing. It's one of my favorite ways to pass the time. And her mother was also a dance teacher and her aunt was a dance teacher. They each had their own studios. So it definitely runs in the family. My aunt was a dance teacher. She recently retired. And my other aunt, this is all on my mom's side, by the way, my other aunt was also a dance teacher early on, and then she transitioned to, I think, teaching English. And I still teach dance. My father, on the other hand, this is how art is also in our family. He was involved in theater and he's a wonderful singer. So he passed that ability to sing onto me. So I did choir and everything like that, all throughout elementary, middle, and high school. And, I still sing whenever I can just not as often. I was trying to get back into voice lessons before all of this craziness started.

[00:03:17] So hopefully after it's calmed down a little bit, I can get back into that as well. And my father actually got his singing from his father. So that trait has been on my father's side of the family. And I was also, as far as other arts that I've been involved in, I've also been involved in theater. I love acting, I haven't been able to pursue it as much lately, but I did theater all throughout high school, and I was in a play in college as well. It was an awesome experience because not a lot of dancers at my college got to be involved in, you know, straight plays.

[00:04:02] So that, that was a really cool experience to go back and revisit that art form in college.  What else am I missing? Oh, I have a four and a half month old daughter named Sage. And she is just wonderful and, you know, has kind of put everything into perspective for me. I feel like it kind of makes art that much more meaningful because I want to pass on my love of art and the importance of it, that concept to her. 'Cause it really shaped my life. So I'm hoping that it can shape hers as well.

[00:04:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah. And so when you're not teaching... so, so I guess what else do you do? Well, we got your job title earlier, but tell us a little bit about your involvement in the Kansas City Fringe Festival and that job that you have too.

[00:05:02] Trenna Reed: Sure. So actually for the Fringe Festival, my first year, I started off in, I would say a lighter capacity, as the head of ticket sales, which is called Fringe 411. So, that was my title the first year. And that was really all I worked on, 'cause it's very time consuming. And then, I kind of just stayed involved with the organization throughout the year after that. And then when it came back around time to do the festival in 2019, I was in a position where I could step up and on a larger role. And Cheryl's program coordinator had left 'cause she got a job offer somewhere else and started to go in a different direction with her career.

[00:05:55] So Cheryl asked me to kind of step up at least, you know, we weren't sure if it was going to be temporary until she found someone else, 'cause I still have other jobs too. So I wasn't, I didn't know if I could take on the program coordinator position full on, but I was at least going to step in for a little while until they figured out if they could find someone else to fill that slot on the team. So last year was my first year as Program Coordinator for the Fringe Festival. And I learned a lot. I continue to learn. There are so many aspects to putting on a festival and, when I was in college, I was on the performance track. So I didn't have a ton of opportunities to do behind-the-scenes work, besides the costuming work that I did.

[00:06:53] And working for the Fringe Festival has really allowed me to take on some more of those management roles, which I, I enjoy. I do. I didn't think that I would be that type of person to be in an administrative role, but it's really gratifying at the end of everything. And, you know, it teaches you patience and communication skills, to say the least.

[00:07:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:26] Trenna Reed: Yeah. It's just, it's been an amazing experience. And I mean, this time around will be a whole different animal because of everything going on. So everything's kind of up in the air with the festival right now, but, you know, the way things are going, unless we have to shut back down again, I think we'll be able to do the festival in some capacity.

[00:07:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Great.

[00:07:52] Trenna Reed: Whether that's trying to do some things virtually or just condensing it to like two weekends, we're going to try and think of creative ways to keep it going. 'Cause we really don't want to just have to shut it down completely for this year and lose that momentum, right?

[00:08:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and, just to give our audience some perspective who might not be familiar with the Fringe Festival, do you mind sharing some stats about the magnitude of what the Fringe Festival typically is, as far as all the different groups you're trying to organize and coordinate? 

[00:08:31] Trenna Reed: Yeah, for sure.

[00:08:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, ' cause that's amazing.

[00:08:35] Trenna Reed: Yeah. I can definitely give you some ballpark. I can't think off the top of my head of what attendance is, but our festival is a pretty large festival. There's lots of different Fringe Festivals around the world. Some of them are really tiny and some of them are huge. Like Orlando Fringe is one of the biggest in the US, and I think put on something like 150 shows or something, or 150 different productions, which is crazy. We do around 75 productions. So that means there's 75 different performance groups or performers. If it's just a one person show, and each of those shows has usually five slots in which they perform. So we're coordinating, you know, 75 times five--I can't do that math in my head how many actual individual shows--and then we usually work with, I would say, between 500 and 750 artists within that. So, I didn't realize it was that many people until I was trying to go through and get some demographics. For our grant writers, we have to kind of go into detail about, you know, how many people are involved, how many artists are involved, our attendance, things like that. So I was going through and looking at all of the waivers that the performers have to fill out out. And I was like, "Oh my God, I didn't realize we have over, easily over 500 people involved in this festival, just on the performing side."

[00:10:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:10:23] Trenna Reed: Yeah, it's, it's crazy. And it runs for 10 days. And, you know, we'll usually--like the first, well, I guess technically two weeks--because we start off with our visual arts, which is also another component of it. So that's adding another, I think like around 50 people, but another component of it that we're coordinating at the same time. And, you know, we've actually been trying to grow that aspect of it a little bit more. We don't want the visual artists to feel like they're in the background. So we usually start off with our visual arts opening. And that'll be usually--I think on a Sunday is when we usually do it. And then the following Friday is when the actual performances start for the festival and then the performances will go for 10 days. So it's a lot. We have a lot of volunteers that help and we wouldn't be able to do it without our amazing volunteer base.

[00:11:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it is an undertaking. I commend you for your patience and your adaptability, because so much that you guys do and pour into that festival every year. So yes.

[00:11:46] Trenna Reed: You have to have some sort of faith in humanity to be able to do that.

[00:11:52] Lindsey Dinneen: That seems, that seems right. Oh my goodness. Yes. Well, thank you for sharing about that. And, I know you probably have like a zillion stories just from the festival, from your own art experiences, but does anything kind of stand out as something you wanted to share today?

[00:12:11] Trenna Reed: Hmm, I'm trying to think of specifically for the festival, because there's so much happening every day during the festival. And, well, this is, so I just saw-- this was a social media post on Mother's Day, and this is just like a little story to put it into perspective how hard our director for the festival works. So her birthday is June, I think it's June 12th? Or sometime around then. And, she was, I think, out to eat with her family. And her son, Brent, posted that she had forgotten that it was her birthday.

[00:12:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness.

[00:12:59] Trenna Reed: And I mean, this is, you know, par for the course for Cheryl, because she works so hard and never stops that she'll forget it's her birthday...

[00:13:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my word...

[00:13:11]Trenna Reed:  ...until her family reminds her. I mean, because that's about a month away until the festival is opening.  So we're getting pretty into the thick of it at that point.

[00:13:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:13:22] Trenna Reed: So, I mean, I have lots of little stories like that about Cheryl and she's just a peach. She's best. And I, we all love working for her and she is the heart and soul of the festival and her positive energy just exudes and it shapes the experience of the festival. And, she's always kind and patient, but she also knows when she has to draw the line and give tough love sometimes. So I think finding the balance for that is one of her strengths.

[00:14:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I think so too. She is a remarkable woman. And yeah, I'm a huge fan. I think everyone who meets her are. You know, it's because she's just, like you said, she she's so kind and she's so inclusive, and then when she needs to put her foot down, she can. But until that time, she's just the loveliest, so much fun. I just, I love her. Yeah.

[00:14:34] Trenna Reed: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I was just thinking of another, like, this is just kind of a glimpse into what it's like behind the scenes. So,  when we're, like at the end of the night, what we do is we tally--well, that's a simplistic way to put it--but we figure out the ticket sales, and try and make sure that everything balances out, 'cause we keep track of the attendance of each show. 'Cause at the end of the festival, we handout the Best Of awards. And currently the Best Of is based on attendance for your show. So, you know, whoever has the most attendance for a certain venue wins best of that venue. So what we have to do at the end of each night is we have to count all the money, count all the tickets that we've received, see how many comps were used. And when we got down to the end of the festival and we're trying to figure out Best Of we were--you know, it's like 11:45 at night, and we're trying to get it out by midnight. But our last show for the night ended at, I think, 11:30. So, we're waiting for the last envelopes of the ticket tallies to come back and there's a couple of shows that are within one person in the audience to determine who won. And, I mean, it was like that for several of them.

[00:16:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:16:13] Trenna Reed: So, and you know, sometimes the numbers don't add up and we're just like, I don't know if this is accurate, or how we can make sure that we have the most accurate count because the numbers aren't adding up.

[00:16:27] Lindsey Dinneen: So because you know, they're cross referencing. Is that correct? Sorry to interrupt, but just for context with somebody who doesn't know, 'cause you're cross referencing, from the usher count versus ticket sales or? Okay.

[00:16:38] Trenna Reed: Correct.

[00:16:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:16:40] Trenna Reed: So we have the usher count and then we use our online ticket platform called Ticketleap. And some of our volunteers are not as familiar with technology. So sometimes they have issues getting everything entered into Ticketleap. And it's also stressful for them when they're trying to get people checked in and seated. So sometimes they don't have time to enter it in as accurately as possible. So, it's just a lot of different factors going into it that can affect the way the numbers turn out at the end. 

[00:17:16] Lindsey Dinneen: So I know that it's been close a few years, but oh my goodness, I can't believe within maybe one audience member. It's that close? Oh, my word that's amazing.

[00:17:27] Trenna Reed: It was, it was stressful. I think we got the numbers out close to midnight. I honestly don't remember. I was probably delirious by that point.

[00:17:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Yes. Let's let's talk about Trenna for a second, folks. So, okay. So I had met Trenna-- because my company also performs at the Fringe Festival--so I had met Trenna briefly, but then we didn't actually, like, sit down and have a conversation until I think August, maybe?

[00:18:01] Trenna Reed: Yeah, it was the beginning of August.

[00:18:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so, and you know, and at that time, I found out she was pregnant. She shared that with me. And I just remember thinking like, "What? You just literally changed your entire sleep schedule for the Fringe Festival, because first of all, that is like 14 days of chaos." Oh my word. And then she's pregnant and she's such a powerhouse, still wants to keep, you know, doing all the things and, you know, up until her due date. So speaking of that, I was privileged enough to have Trenna as one of the choreographers for my company's Nutcracker production, which we called "Cracked!" And, so it was an original show, all original choreography to kind of celebrate Kansas City. So it's a little more unique in that way. And, Trenna is choreographing and setting the choreography and is at our shows being our Backstage Coordinator. And she's amazing. And--okay-- and she's taking our warmup classes. And how, how much time did you have left before you were about to get birth?

[00:19:12] Trenna Reed: I had about two and a half weeks. I felt pretty good. So I tried to keep active. Actually I'd say that the first trimester, I mean, you know, the first trimester is usually comparable with the third in that it's pretty hard. But I would say like my energy level was definitely lower for the first trimester than it was for the third. And I mean, you know, I just had so many things going on in November and December, so I didn't really have a choice.

[00:19:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness.

[00:19:52] Trenna Reed: You know, well, and my husband had to kind of put into perspective that I needed to slow down because I'm not good at taking care of myself in that sense, because I feel better when I stay busy. But sometimes I get to the point where I don't know how to balance my life because I try and make myself so busy. So, I was going to try and keep teaching until like, I think a week before my due date, or maybe like a week and a half before, and finally, you know, I was getting so tired from everything that was going on. And then he had to have a serious conversation with me and was like, you can't keep just going on like normal. So I'm really glad that he helped me put that into perspective because I needed that wake up call.

[00:20:48] Lindsey Dinneen: No, literally, folks, she seriously is a super woman. She shows up to every show that we did and our dress rehearsal and she's wearing heels, okay, looks stunning, of course, takes the ballet warmup class, and the. Does all the backstage coordinating and in theory, literally could give birth at any time. Like, yeah, just amazing.

[00:21:14] Trenna Reed: Can we talk about your sister, though?

[00:21:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah.

[00:21:18] Trenna Reed: I had no idea that what she was, what, seven and a half months pregnant at that time? I, I, well, I mean, once I found out that she was pregnant, I was like, "Maybe she's like four or five months pregnant?" No, no. Seven months pregnant. Wow. I can't imagine doing Sugar Plum and being seven months pregnant.

[00:21:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, okay. So my sister is another superwoman. Yeah. She danced one of the quintessential roles of the Nutcracker which is basically the Sugar Plum Fairy role. We called it something different in our show, but, on pointe, plus she did Snow. Plus she was in all the group scenes, right? Like all the party scenes and Flowers, which was an insane dance. I'm just going to throw that out there. Yeah, I choreographed it. I can say that.

[00:22:08] Trenna Reed: Standing backstage and watching everyone on the side of the stage, like, heaving for breaths, you know, and Sophie had like some respiratory issues going on. She had to take her inhaler backstage. And I was like, I have been there. I know how that feels. I had to do that in that, I was the Sugar Plum for our production when my dance studio did the Nutcracker, and in between like the, variation and the Coda I had to take a couple puffs of my inhaler to get through it.

[00:22:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I mean, so the Nutcracker is probably a difficult ballet for anyone involved, but with a smaller company, I mean, I make this joke, but it's, it's reality--you're either dancing or you're changing. There's no downtime. So as soon as those first notes of the, you know, opening number happen, you just...two hours, well, I don't know if it's quite two hours, but an hour and a half of like cardio. Yes. Yeah. And my sister's doing this seven and a half months pregnant and rocking it. It was a miracle. But anyway. Yeah. So I'm just curious, Trenna, is there like one thing that you maybe were surprised by, or that you learned? You know, that could be like anything about art or about organization or people or whatever, like something that's kind of stood out as maybe like unexpected when you started taking over the coordination of the Fringe Fest .

[00:23:41] Trenna Reed: I think the thing that's surprised me the most is just, you know, I'm so used to being on the performing side of it and I just, I get so much joy from that. I never knew that you can get the same kind of feeling when you're working behind the scenes for something as well. Because, you know, I would just describe--like when I'm on stage, I just feel like a different part of my soul has awakened. I'm getting really deep here, but that's the best way I can describe it. And towards the end of the festival, when we've done all the grunt work and everything is kind of coming together, it's that same feeling where I feel like the artist in me has come to the forefront, and it makes you fall in love with your art form even more. Or fall in love with, I guess, the Fringe Festival and what it represents, even more. Yeah, I just, I was surprised that I could get that Feeling from being a Program Coordinator as well.

[00:24:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. I can relate, and that is really interesting. And that's great to know too, about yourself, that you do have so many different, I dunno, ways to--when you engage in the arts in general, you have then multiple avenues that allow you to feel that joy, which is awesome. Yeah, that's really cool.

[00:25:17] Trenna Reed: Absolutely. And, you know, I felt that same thing with costuming when my Alma Mater asked me to come back and fill in for the Costume Mistress position at Oklahoma City University for the dance program, because their costume mistress was having her second baby. And I had worked in the costume shop, while I was there getting my degree for my work study, and I had been heavily involved in that costume shop and knew the way that it operated and was familiar with the staff. So they asked me to come back and head that up for a couple of months. And, I was super nervous because the extent of my costuming was being involved in dance and theater and being around costumes, knowing how to sew once I got to college and the work that I had done in the costume shop. Besides that, I don't really have a background in like costume design or anything like that.

[00:26:18]So I was just kind of going in there and winging it. And, it was a really, really great feeling at the end of it, knowing that I had, helped to create and manage this amazing team, 'cause the students that work in the costume shop, I would not have been able to do that job if they had not been there to lead each other and really step up to the plate while the Costume Mistress was gone. And you know, I got that same feeling, watching the shows and watching the costumes on stage and seeing everything come to fruition, I guess. And knowing that I had made some of the decisions that contributed to the costumes working. So that, that was a really incredible experience too. And, you know, I don't know if I'll ever be like the costume designer or anything like that. I thought about exploring that avenue as well, but maybe that'll be something that I try to delve into a little bit more later in life. But you know, it was that same feeling of the artist in me awakening, I guess.

[00:27:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And representing in a different way than, you know, than you had really explored before.

[00:27:49] Trenna Reed: Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's really neat. Well, thank you so much for sharing just about your experience. And I love hearing behind-the-scenes stories and, just, you know, it's so funny-- it's wonderful as an audience member, you get to kind of see the final picture and you don't get to see necessarily everything that goes into it. But I, I love the real talk of behind-the-scenes, 'cause there's a lot to it and it can get messy and it can, and it's difficult, but you look at the end result and you're like, wow, that's, that's pretty cool.

[00:28:26] Trenna Reed: Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely a gratifying experience.

[00:28:30]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. Well, I just have a couple questions that I like to ask my guests, if you don't mind me asking you. Okay. So first, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:28:46] Trenna Reed: Hmm, I would say art is human expression, because I guess the way that I think about it is, of all the species on this planet, as far as we know, humans are really the only ones who can convey art and understand art. I guess dogs can watch TV, but you know, they don't really comprehend what's going on, so that, I would say, it's a human expression. And, for me it's just, it's art is love and passion, and it's how we express those emotions or any emotions, which is such an important part of being a human being.

[00:29:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:29:53] Trenna Reed: Hmm.  I think probably connecting to the audience, whether it be the person looking at your painting, or the person watching you perform, or watching the movie you created, just finding some way to connect to the people who are consuming that art.

[00:30:24] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That is a very unique answer. I've never heard somebody describe it like that before, and I think that's incredibly important. Thank you.

[00:30:33] Trenna Reed: Yeah.

[00:30:34] Lindsey Dinneen: And then my final question, and then I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So what I mean by that is exclusive kind of referring to an artist creates something, they share it with the world and then they let the world interpret it the way that they will. So they don't really provide context. Maybe there's not a title, maybe you don't know the inspiration behind it. Versus inclusive where the artist does share something. So maybe it's program notes or maybe it's a description, or the inspiration behind. It is basically some context so that the audience has a hint of what's going on.

[00:31:16] Trenna Reed: Right. That's a good question, but I really think it depends on, it depends on the artist and it depends on the audience or the consumer of the art. Because, I mean, for me, sometimes I do like getting that context and it helps me understand what's going on better. And I feel like I have a better experience with that art form when I have that insight. But on the other hand, like, you know, like for instance, last night I was watching a  show called Ray Donovan on, I think it's on Showtime. And there was a part where he picked up a Bible. And when he turned to the front of it, you see a cross. And then in the song that was playing, you hear an organ, they just kind of like snuck that in there as a sort of symbolism, and connecting the music to what was on screen. And it was cool for me to make that discovery on my own, as opposed to being told, "Hey, we put this in here because of this." You know what I mean?

[00:32:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely.

[00:32:33] Trenna Reed: So I think it depends on the person looking or experiencing the art, and how that artist wants to connect with their audience. Do they want them to figure it out on their own because it will be more meaningful that way? Or is it so abstract that they need some sort of context to be able to fully grasp and appreciate that art?

[00:33:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes complete sense to me. Well, thank you again so much, Trenna, for being my guest today. I really appreciate it. And I just want to say on behalf of myself, but not just on behalf of myself, on behalf of the world, I really appreciate that you share your art with the world, whether that's you're dancing, you're choreographing, teaching. But just all the ways that you bring art to the world world, even, you know, singing or costume design and, and administration, the organization of it is so important. And so I just want to say thank you because when you bring that to the world, I think you make it a more beautiful place. So I appreciate that you share, and yeah.

[00:33:45] Trenna Reed: Thank you so much.

[00:33:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. Well, thank you also, everyone who has listened to this episode, if you feel as inspired as I do, I would love for you to share it with maybe a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:34:02]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much! And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In this episode, I welcome Liza Lomax! She is the founder of Love Your Body Coaching, and helps women fully accept and embrace themselves. She shares several stories about how art has not only impacted and inspired her own life, but also that of her clients' lives as well. As an empath, Liza is highly intuitive and discusses how that impacts her relationship with art. 

Get in touch with Liza Lomax: https://www.facebook.com/liza.lomax | www.lizalomax.com | www.instagram.com/lizalomax | www.twitter.com/liza_lomax 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart 

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 17 - Liza Lomax

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you and you're enjoying doing it, and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23]Elna:  Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told! I'm Lindsey, and I am very delighted to have as my guest today, Liza Lomax, and she is a coach, but she, that just like barely scratches the surface. And I'm so excited to share her with you today because she has an incredible story about her own trajectory, which led her to be a coach, but also just in general, her life story is incredible. And her stories about how art has kind of been weaving through her life is also incredible. And I'm just so excited that you're here, Liza. So thank you for joining us today.

[00:01:12] Liza Lomax: Thank you for having me. I'm super excited.

[00:01:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay. Awesome. Would you mind just sharing a little bit about yourself and your story or what kind of, however you want to introduce who you are? I would love that!

[00:01:26] Liza Lomax: For sure. So I'm a body image coach. My business is called Love Your Body Coaching. What is that? So I help women go from self-loathing to self-loving. I help women be able to look at themselves naked in the mirror and fully, truly, madly, deeply accept themselves and love themselves as the reflection that they see staring back at them.

[00:01:50]I have my own personal transformation story. It is quite a story, but we don't have hours and hours, so I will condense it a little bit for everybody. As a teenager, I suffered from two EDs [eating disorders]. I suffered from anorexia and overeating, so binge eating, and I went from one end of the spectrum to the other. And by the time I was 26, I weighed 300 pounds. I was borderline diabetic. I had high cholesterol. I had high blood pressure. I had a two year old at the time and the doctor told me that if I didn't lose weight, I wasn't going to live to see him turn five. And again, he was two at the time. So I was like, well, I want to live to see my son. So I'll lose the weight.

[00:02:37]Now I came from a very religious background, a very religious household. And, you know, as all children, when right away when we're little we're, you know, when we're told they have to look a certain way and dress a certain way and act a certain way and be a certain way. And when we're not those ways, we try to fix them. And that's where that not good enough story starts. And then it, you know, harbors is in our brains until there until we're an adult. And then that's all we think about is that we're not good enough. We're not special enough. We're not beautiful enough or not pretty enough. We're not this, we're not that.

[00:03:10] And I really had that not-good-enough story really just stick in my brain so ingrainly deeply in there that I just, I didn't care about myself. I didn't love myself. I literally hated myself. I had low self esteem. I would look in the mirror and I would hate the person that was staring back at me. I suffered from body dysmorphia. And so I literally would see a monster in the mirror when I did look in the mirror. And so when I was 300 pounds and I was sitting in the doctor's office and he's telling me I've got to die. I'm like, okay, well, I got to do something. So I lost 105 pounds in 13 months.

[00:03:52] However, I didn't change my mindset and I continue to yo-yo over and over and over. I still had those same behaviors with same habits, so same limiting beliefs. And it took me probably about five or six years later. I literally hit rock bottom. And I was addicted to diet pills. I was a heavy drinker. I did things to my body nobody should ever do to themselves. I had such a low self esteem. I hated myself, hated everything about me. I put myself in situations where I should have been killed, and whether you believe in God, higher source, higher power, whatever you believe--I really believe that God just was telling me that I needed to change and something needed to give.

[00:04:34] And because I've been a people pleaser, I've been a doormat, I've been a caregiver. I have taken care of everybody around me. I'm a lover of love. I love people. I love to give myself and I've given so much of myself to everybody else that I've never given myself myself. If that makes sense. I've never given anything to me. And I've never loved myself. Truly madly, deeply loved myself. And so it sent me on this mission to find me, to find my authentic self, to find who I am, to love myself, to heal all those wounds, to reframe, retrain those limiting beliefs, those behaviors, those stories that I created, you know, since I was a child. And, you know, create new habits, new beliefs and new behaviors.

[00:05:21] And, so I went in, got certified in multiple, a multitude of different things and, you know, and went and studied every self help book and every guru and everybody out there. And so I had all these tools in my toolbox because I knew that there were other women out there that struggled. There are other women out there that needed my help. And because I'm such a lover of love and lover of people, I knew my mission in this world was to love people and was to give love and show people how to love, and show women how to love themselves, just the way they are. And through all this process, art was really incorporated in my life. And I never really thought about it because it was just, it came second nature to me. And, when I was 14, I started writing poetry. And I channel a lot, so I'm an empath. I'm highly intuitive, and so I channel a lot of people's emotions, including my emotions, by myself.

[00:06:17] So writing was a huge thing for me. Writing poetry was a huge thing for me and during some really, really dark times, I noticed I found this love for painting, and so I would paint. I used painting as a way to express my emotions and to get them out. So for me, it was like a way of getting them out of my, out of my body, and putting them somewhere else so that I didn't have to hold onto them anymore. That was my way of releasing it. Everybody has their own way of releasing things. That was my way of releasing. And I really felt that it really helped me. It was very beneficial for me and really helped me get through some really dark times. And, now I use that, I incorporate it in my coaching. I use that as a healthy, emotional outlet to go to when you're struggling or when you have something, you know, you need to release those emotions. Art and drawing and painting and writing are great ways to release those emotions. So yeah, that's a little bit about me.

[00:07:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:07:25] Liza Lomax: Yes, you're very welcome. Thank you.

[00:07:28]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So your story is just incredibly powerful. And I love the fact that now you are taking, obviously a very difficult journey that you've been through, to empower not only yourself, but other women who probably have gone through very similar things and felt, you know, very similarly and and I just think that's an incredible gift that you're giving.   I would love to dive a little bit deeper into some of the ways that art has had an impact in your journey. If you don't mind, if any stories come to mind as to, maybe specifically, if there's anything in particular that kind of stands out as being truly helpful in that journey. And, and I know before we started recording, we had talked about how you even encourage in your coaching this to be an outlet. So I'm just, I'm super curious to hear a little bit more about that if that's okay.

[00:08:22] Liza Lomax: Oh yeah, for sure! And actually one story comes to mind. I, you know, not only went through a lot of stuff. I also had a lot of toxicity in my life and I had a lot of people, places and things is what I call them. And I went from one abusive relationship to another and in different ways of abusiveness. And I remember this one time that I started painting again. And it was a picture of--in my head, I had this picture of me standing in darkness and all I had was a little, a little bitty lamp. And I was holding onto this lamp and there was just this little bit of glimmer of light. And there was all this darkness around me and it symbolized what my life was like at that time. And I had a lot of darkness around me. I had a lot of toxicity in my life. I was in a very abusive relationship, mentally and not physically, but mentally and emotionally abusive. And I remember I'm painting this thing and I remember that person coming up and ridiculing me about this painting in this picture, that it looks like something that I'm, I'm not going to say on, on this call, but referenced it being something just really disgusting and in a space that just was not good. And, I could have easily scratched it and ripped it up and tore it away or threw it away.

[00:09:55] You know, I could have easily have done something like that, which my past self probably would have. Because I'm like, "Oh, well I don't live up to this person's expectations." So I'm just gonna, I'm just going to do something else. But no, I had the mindset that, no, I'm going to finish this painting 'cause it's something that I need to do and I need to get it out. And if you could just envision a little girl, standing in a big dark forest and all that she has is the little light in her lamp. And, that was the picture--was just this, all this darkness around but I knew that there was some light at the end of the tunnel.  And I knew that I was going to get through whatever the situation that I was in at the time I was going to get through it because I had my light and whether it was super, super tiny, it didn't matter, 'cause it was still light in that darkness.

[00:10:47]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Do you still have that painting?

[00:10:51]Liza Lomax: It's somewhere in storage.

[00:10:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah?

[00:10:54] Liza Lomax: 'Cause we travel me and my partner travel a lot, so it's in storage somewhere, but...

[00:11:00] Lindsey Dinneen: I'm glad you kept it.

[00:11:03] Liza Lomax: Yeah. Yeah, it was, it, yeah, it was a very pivotal time and in my life at that time, when I drew that. Yeah, very memorable to me.

[00:11:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And so I know that you also encourage your clients to use art as an outlet. Do you mind sharing a little bit more about that?

[00:11:25] Liza Lomax: Yeah. So in my program, there's a module that we go through called Healthy Emotional Outlets. And whether it's EFT or whether it's energy healing work, whether it's exercising, some of the other things I've incorporated are music and drawing and painting and writing. And, one of the things I encourage right away when my clients start a program with me is to start journaling and start writing. Writing for me has always been a huge impact. And, so writing right away and using art as a way to get your emotions out and to be able to--cause some, I mean, we don't, we're emotional beings. I mean, we base every choice, every decision, everything that we make is on emotions. And you know, a lot of times we're told that we can't show our emotions and we can't be emotional and you know, "I'll give you something to cry about."

[00:12:24] You know? I mean, there's these things that we're told that when our kids that we know we can't, we can't do these things. And so we grow up pushing our emotions down and down and down, and we have such a hard time releasing those. And so using art as a way to release those emotions is huge. It's very impactful because if you don't know how to release them, I really believe that art is a good way of releasing those emotions.

[00:12:52] Lindsey Dinneen: And when you encourage your clients to use that as an outlet, which I love--I'm super biased as an artist myself--but I love that you do that, because it can make such a difference--is it something where do you ever get any kind of pushback where people think, "Well, I'm not an artist or, you know, I, I can't draw or I can't paint." Or is that part of like a mindset that you're also working to help kind of overcome? The "I can't" or "I don't" kind of thing associated with art?

[00:13:24] Liza Lomax: Yes, because yes, we can do things. We just choose not to do them. So I tell people I'm like, you can do something, you just choose not to do them. And you know, if you don't want to do it, that's fine. It's there and everybody always gives it a least a chance, a go. And I love it when I hear people say that they can't draw or they can't sing. And it's like, well, first of all, you can sing. It just might not be very good. And you can draw. It just might not be very good. So, you know, saying that you can't do something is not true. It's never true because you can do it. Just so, so it doesn't matter whether it doesn't look good to you or to somebody else or to whomever. You're still getting that out and still getting those emotions out and still releasing what you need to release. So I don't believe in the word "I can't." It's always, you choose not to.

[00:14:22] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. I love that so much. Oh my goodness. Yeah, because I think it's so important--and I love the way that you worded it--it is so important that we go into something that new for us. And maybe we've never expressed ourselves in that way before, but we go into it saying it's possible. I might not be very good at it, but that doesn't-- it shouldn't decrease even the attempt at it. I mean, I'm not brilliant at drawing, but I'll do it. I can kind of draw a little bit, some stick figures.

[00:14:57] Liza Lomax: Right, right! If it's a whole, a whole page of stick figures. Okay. So be it. That's your art. It's okay. Art is art is art is art. It doesn't matter what it is.

[00:15:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. I love it. Yes. So do you personally continue to engage in the arts? I mean, are you still kind of active as an artist? I know different seasons lead to different things, but, are you still kind of enjoying arts as well?

[00:15:24] Liza Lomax: Yes. I mean, all the time I'm constantly doodling or writing. You know, something comes to my mind, I'll write it down. So, but with all the arts, you know, I did theater for 15 years and that was a huge impact in my life as well. I've always incorporated lots of art into my world. And, music is also a huge form of the arts and going and listening to music and really listening to the melodies and the silence behind it. And that has an impact on how you feel too. Music is a huge thing too, for me. I still doodle, I still draw. I travel a lot, so I can't always just sit and get an easel up and start painting, but when I get an opportunity, I'll take it.

[00:16:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for sharing about your own life journey and sharing about what you're doing now and how you're helping people. And all of that is so wonderful. So thank you for sharing that with us. I really appreciate it.

[00:16:29] Liza Lomax: Thank you.

[00:16:30] Lindsey Dinneen: And, I would love if it's okay with you, I always ask the same three questions to my guests. So I'm just curious about your opinions on them, if you're okay with that.

[00:16:40] Liza Lomax: Yes, for sure.

[00:16:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:16:48]Liza Lomax: Oh, wow. That's a good question. Oh, how would I, how would you describe it? To me, art is an emotion. it's anger. It's sadness. It's happy. It's frustration. It's irritation. It's gratefulness. It's blessings. When I look at art, I can feel what the artist was portraying at that time because I'm an empath. So looking at art is very impactful for me because I can see it and I can feel what the person was trying to express or trying to convey. You know, there's so many pieces of artwork where people are like, they don't understand it. They don't get it. Like, what is this? It looks just like a bunch of jumbly blobs on a canvas, and I can look at it and I can see what they were feeling and what they were doing and how they were--what they were trying to convey through the art. So to me, it's--art is emotions. If that makes any sense.

[00:17:54] Lindsey Dinneen: It absolutely does. That's a great answer and a unique one. I haven't heard it expressed quite like that before, so I love it. Thank you. Okay. So what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:18:07]The most important role of an artist... being themselves and being their authentic selves. I think, you know, artists take a risk at everything that they do because you could be easily rejected or easily accepted. And if you show your authenticity through your work in anything that you do, not just art, but I mean, we're talking about art right now, but to show your authenticity through your work, makes it very valuable.

[00:18:38]That's another great answer. Okay. And my last question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who, when they share their art with the world, that you know a little bit of context behind it now. So whether that's a title or program notes or what inspired this piece or whatever. So you have a little bit of context going into it as an audience or as a observer. Versus exclusive being the artist shares their work and doesn't necessarily provide any context to it and just lets the observer take from it what they will, if that makes sense.

[00:19:28]Liza Lomax: I, so when I go into a museum, I go in and I see art. I don't read the little note cards or the little things, the little plaques next to it, because I like to see the art for what it really is, and I don't like to be influenced on what, where, what time it was done or what year it was done or who it was done by, or what the explanation was. So I like to look at it and just look at it for the actual art. I don't read anything about the artists. So I would say exclusive, because it's like, to me, I want to see the art. I don't necessarily need to know about the history or the background or why it was created. I just want to see just the art.

[00:20:15]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. All right. Excellent. Well, and you have a really unique perspective, I think too, because like you shared with us earlier--when you look at a piece of art or experience art, you are able to draw from it emotions and feelings and all those kinds of things that maybe someone who isn't as empathic would find. So that's a pretty unique perspective too, which I love. So, yeah! Well, again, thank you so much for being a part of this. Is there a way for us to get in contact with you and learn more if anyone would like to do so?

[00:20:54] Liza Lomax: Yes. So I am, of course, on all the platforms. I'm on Facebook under Liza Lomax. I'm on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn. My website's being redesigned right now but you can check it out and check more of my story out. It's just lizalomax.com. But the best way to get ahold of me is probably Facebook. And then, my email address is just [email protected].

[00:21:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you, Liza. Well, thank you also to all of you who are listening to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am at the moment, I would love for you to share it with a friend or two, and please feel free to get in touch with Liza. She is absolutely wonderful as you can tell from just this brief conversation with her. Obviously she has a lot to share with the world and give, and we will catch you next time.

[00:21:52] Do you have a story to share with us? We would love that so much, and I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In this episode, I welcome Elna VanGreuning! Elna graces us with a masterclass on the history of lace and lacemaking, from its very beginnings to how we can get involved today. Originally from South Africa, Elna brings her rich knowledge of lace and her own experiences in lacemaking to dive deep into one of the loveliest art forms. 

The International Organization of Lace: https://internationalorganizationoflace.org/

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Arteza: Arteza makes art supplies affordable to creators with every budget. Art is about the journey. They provide the tools – you steer the way. Click here and use promo code PB8PROMO for 8% off all purchases!

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 16 - Elna VanGreuning

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna VanGreuning: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as, as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey, and I am so excited to share with you a wonderful, wonderful guest that I get to have on my episode today. Her name is Elna VanGreuning, and she is originally from South Africa. And I'll let her tell you a little bit more about herself, but I have the privilege to call her my aunt adopted. I had the privilege of growing up, and getting to know her, and have many, many fond memories of spending afternoons at her lovely house, having tea, learning the correct way to have tea.  I just am so blessed to have her in my life, but I am extremely excited to share her with you all today. She is a very, very accomplished woman in many avenues. And one of the things that she does is lace making. And so I'm just thrilled to hear all of her stories about that. So thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:01:36]Elna VanGreuning: Thank you, Lindsey. I feel honored that you even invited me for this. Yes, I'm from South Africa, but I've been in the US now almost 26 years. I'm also a US citizen. So I am very much American and love living in the Reston area. So a little bit about my life, in how I got involved in that. Way back in 1975, when I was a young school teacher, a friend of mine, in the middle of the country that actually taught lace classes and she started with that. And then we got married in 1976 and she made us a beautiful lace handkerchief embroidered with all the details.

[00:02:26] So that's how I initially even got to know about lace, and how you make lace. Previous to that, I was in Belgium in 1974 and I went to Bruges and Brussels and saw all the beautiful lace, little shops and was intrigued, but I didn't really know how you make it. So then time went on and we ended up in Toronto in 1980, for 18 months. And I couldn't work. I couldn't get a work permit. Only my husband could. And I got bored, looked at the newspaper and found a woman, a Dutch woman, teaching lace. So I thought, well, I might as well try this. Well, I've got nothing else to do. And that's how I started making lace. So when I went back to South Africa in 1981, it was wonderful to connect with my friend, and we started this lace adventure together. And I got very involved. I even taught lace for quite a while, had quite a few students until we came to the US in 1994. Since then I've not made a lot of lace. Life just took over here. I did connect with a lace group in Reston for a while, and then it sort of dwindled, but I've got a nice lace collection that I've put together over the years and added to. And so, I've always kept my interest and therefore, you know, that's how I got involved in lacemaking.

[00:04:09]Lindsey Dinneen: That is wonderful. I did not know that story. I love the fact that you, were bored, so you just decided to take up this new adventure. That's amazing.

[00:04:19]Elna VanGreuning: Yes, I've always loved doing handcrafts. I was a home ec[onomics] teacher. So you can imagine that I did weaving, and I took a weaving course in Toronto as well. But lace was sort of the unusual thing, and I thought, Whoa, this is on my doorstep. Why, why don't I pursue this? So I've loved embroidery and all of this, and I also think that handiwork for me, it's really been a wonderful-- it's a pastime, but also it's a way of relaxing. There's a way of expression expressing your feelings and your artistic capabilities. I can't draw, but I can do fine handwork and appreciate it. So I think that's the way I, I really enjoyed getting involved in lace and it's, it's so beautiful for the eye in any way. And you can sit down, work on your pillow with beautiful classic music in the background, or sit outside and enjoy fresh air so it is something you can take with you. I mean, you can take your pillow when you go to a friend or you can take it on vacation. Not, not practical if you're flying, but if you're driving in a car. So yes, that's, that's how I got involved.

[00:05:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. You have some stories to share with us about the origin of lace and different techniques or styles, but I would love for you to take it away because I am very excited to learn along with everyone else.

[00:05:52]Elna VanGreuning: Okay, thank you. Well, let me start off with the history of lace. Lace is indisputably a very old form of art. It's rather sad that very little is known about the birth of lace as we know it today and the existing resources are very few and very superficial. Indeed the history of lace cannot be separated from the history of clothing construction. And as a matter of fact, fashion has always driven the lace production, whether it was hand or machine lace, as we know it today. It's obvious that humans from the earliest times had a need or longing to decorate clothing, and it never changed or diminished. Lace thus evolved out of this need. The Egyptian lace making techniques unfortunately disappeared for many centuries. It was only through pictorial evidence from the late 15th century we could see that simple platitude laces appeared on costumes, for example. And, when printing became popular or available, we now know of books. There was one book, 1561, printed in Zurich that mentioned the amount or the look of lace that was actually ordered from Italy in the previous century, in the 15th century.

[00:07:20] So we know that after the Middle Ages, lace definitely came back. Lace was surely inspired by the open effect of the renowned Venetian embroidery . In time, instead of cutting out expensive fabric, foundation threads were laid onto a temporary backing and with a needle, a form of lace was made and it was called Punto in Aria. This was all done in Venetia, or Venice, because we know that the Venetians were very big on trading with the East. And on the Island of Burano just outside of Venice today, they still have a whole community of lacemakers that actually makes this. The Venitian trade with the Far East also brought very fine silk threads to Europe.

[00:08:11]There is no proof that Asia ever made lace. They did various forms of embroidery, but not lace. So therefore the Italians still claim that they inspired and birthed lacemaking. The lace that they made in Venice at that time with a needle then became a known as needle lace, which is very different from bobbin lace that I'll talk about later. So bobbin lace generally is much quicker to work than needle lace. And skilled workers were soon able to copy needle lace designs. So yes, bobbin lace was inspired again out of needle lace. Bobbin lace uses multiple threads, which are wound around wooden or bone bobbins, and therefore it's called bobbin lace. So that's the big distinction, between the two. Although the Italians even claim that they started bobbin lace, the first history book on lace, it's called--it's a very  famous book-- it's called "The History of Lace" by a Mrs. Palliser was written at the end of the 1800s. It clearly states the fact that we will never know the truth.

[00:09:33] We'll never know whether the Italian started the bobbin lace or whether the Belgians, the flounders at that stage, started the lace.  So regardless of the country of a region of bobbin lace, it did spread rapidly and was established as one of the most delicate of all handmade art forms ever. So, I mean, there might be people that would say no jewelry could be finer or whatever, but that's from the lace makers perspective. The first lace was very simple and not so delicate because of the thicker thread and very simple geometric forms that were used. But as skills were refined and much thinner threads became available, artists soon produced very complex and elaborate patterns. Lace-making reached a high point with the Brussels Point d'Angleterre. Or in Dutch, it was called bloom work, which means flower work. It was very delicate.

[00:10:39]So by the 1550s, lace-making became a very common career choice and not only a pastime skill. Initially convents took the lead in making the lace and also taught lace-making. Women were involved in spinning, weaving, and embroidery since the Middle Ages and therefore those industries, which were all home-interest industries, were well-established by the time the woman got involved in lace-making, so they were already set up for this. And I also think that some of the weaving the big tapestry were then taken over by companies and took the work away from the women in, in their home industry. So lace making filled this void at the time. Many pictorial evidences exist to show us of women either busy spinning, weaving, making lace, or depicting these articles in paintings and drawings.

[00:11:40] Paintings of rich embroidered tablecloths. And clergy attire are plentiful. If we look through the art books and, and art history, we learn about that as well. The elegant, elaborate clothing decoration reached a peak under Louis the 16th. And Marie Antoinette, obviously, and that was 1774 to 1792, and paved the way for lace to become very sought after. From Italy amongst the nobility they had this need and greed for all these wonderful things. So that also stimulated the production of very fine fabrics and decorations. In 1665, there were already 10 different kinds of known lace, of which the Belgium Mechelen, which was a little town just outside of Brussels, lace was by far the most popular for the nobility, because it was considered the prettiest of laces--fine, transparent and effective. In 1834, there were eight houses where Mechelen lace was produced. So that's just more, more or less, an idea where they started and how it spread. So I don't know whether you have any questions

[00:13:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. That's really helpful to have a little bit of a background and, and who knew there was such tension about it? I, that is so interesting to me.

[00:13:17] Elna VanGreuning: Thank you. Well, since, Belgium, and I'm going to switch between Belgium and Flanders and I'll explain in a minute why, is generally seen as the country that produced the most and the most beautiful of all laces throughout the ages. I'm going to talk about Belgium lace first of all, but that doesn't mean that the French lace wasn't special, that Spain didn't have lace Germany Switzerland, Scandinavia, Russia, and so forth. I can't talk about all the countries. Certainly the French lace was also something in that time. French lace in particular was beautiful, but not such a huge industry because of the religious persecution, because of the Edict of Nantes, and then the revolution. So it was never as big as the Belgium lace. So, Flanders became Belgium in 1839 and, you know, there were also change in, in borders, because at some stage some cities like Mechelen was in France, and then it became part of Belgium, and Brabant was first in Flanders and then it became part of Holland, so it's really difficult to know which, which part was where when, but, so just excuse me, if I, I mix between Flanders and Belgium.

[00:14:44] Paintings from the low countries, as early as the 15th century, depicts people dressed in clothes, richly adorned with lace. A series of engravings around 1585 shows lacemakers sitting at their lace pillows and working and, well, the interesting part of you, I can't show you the pictures, but if you see the pictures, they were young girls, they were not older women. And I'm going to tell you why in a little bit. In 1651, the Flemish poet, Jacob Van Eyck, wrote a famous poem about the lace maker in Latin. I'm gonna read it to you in English because I just love it. And it goes like this: "Of many arts, one surpasses all. The threads woven by the strange powers of the hand. Threads, which the dropping spider would, in vain, attempt to imitate and which Pallas [which was the Greek goddess, Athena] would confess she has never known." And she was the goddess of handicraft. So that's a, I think really a nice way of expressing. It's almost like a spider web, but it's very fine.

[00:16:06] Lindsey Dinneen: That is beautiful.

[00:16:07] Elna VanGreuning: Yes. Yes. I do love that one. Because of the religious prosecution. Flanders lost many skilled lacemakers, and in 1698, legislation was even passed in, in Flanders, which kept the employer responsible if his employee fled the country. So you had to tell them why  she left and where she went to, because it was such a big industry for the country.

[00:16:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness.

[00:16:40] Elna VanGreuning: Yes. Now I'm going to give you a few statistics to prove how large this lacemaking industry in Belgium was. Up to 1900, the lace industry was the most valued home industry in Belgium because it accounted for a sizeable portion of foreign currency flowing into the country. As early as 1785, it was recorded that the average lacemaker was was technically blind by the age of 30, and children as young as five years old were signed up for apprenticeships. At age 10, girls earned enough to financially support themselves. It wasn't fully grown girls. In 1768, England, England alone ordered 250,000 pounds worth of lace from Flanders and by 1861, one out of every four women were involved in the lacemaking industry in Belgium. That high demand for lace in England and Europe quickly led to an embargo on the implant  and resulted in a substantial and dangerous Black Market. Between 1820 in 1836, at least 40,000 dogs were used to carry lace around their skinny bodies, and then covered in a second layer of fur from his deceased dog, between Belgium and France alone. They were very various other ways of smuggling that you also read about. But I thought this one is just a particularly horrid one because the French, even after the revolution-- mean, Napoleon also loved lace. And if you go to the Island of Murano, there's a shop that also is a museum and they have examples of some of the lace worn by Napoleon. So, yes, the revolution didn't complete it, it stopped the lace making in France, but not the need and the love for lace.

[00:18:59] Okay. Back to Flanders, the first Flanders lace exported to England was named Brussels point d'angleterre or point English, as I mentioned earlier. Because it was specifically exported to England and loved by King Charles the second. And in 1662, the English parliament issued a law to prohibit the import of this lace. And this was actually the height of the production of this point d'angleterre because of the English loving this, you know, they created a demand and a market but it was soon stopped because of the English. This boosted the English lace making industry when they prohibited the import of the Brussels lace, but they still had a long road ahead to compete with the quality and the quantities of lace made in Brussels. As a matter of fact, the British never achieved this milestone King Charles, the second, between 1660, and 1685, he ruled. He even invited some Flemish lacemakers to come and live in England, but that was really not a successful venture. The lace traders kept on smuggling huge quantities of best and finest Flemish lace, and sold it as English point lace, and not Brussels point d'angleterre.  In 1678, one of the boats smuggling these goods-- there were tons of colors, handkerchiefs, gloves, fans, you name it and 750,000 yards of lace on this boat that was seized across the English channel. Nobody knows what they did with it, but it was a huge loss for the Flanders industry because they didn't get the lace back and the British didn't pay either. So, there was a  war on a lot of fronts, not only on the political front. 

[00:21:01] Right from the beginning they only used linen thread produced in Belgium. The linen threads were so fine, it could hardly be felt between the fingertips. Linen was kept in dark and damp rooms where it was spun, stored, and used to avoid direct sunlight and from it becoming dry and brittle. The working rooms were often quite dark and only lit by one candle encircled by glass balls filled with water to reflect the candlelight.  So you wonder why they got blind at age--they were technically blind at age 30, because they've worked at very low lighting. And in 1859, just an example, one pound of Belgium linen would cost 500 pounds. That's the thread. And if they use it produce lace, the lace was only worth 700 pounds. So you can imagine that the linen was much more expensive than what the girls were paid to make this lace. They only made, made 200 pounds for all these hours of work.

[00:22:14] Linen was, therefor, far too expensive for the British machine manufacturers, and they soon switched to only using cotton. So after the industrial revolution in England, you know, there was no need for lacemakers. The machines did the lace, but they couldn't really afford making lace with linen because it was too expensive. So this was one of the reasons why Belgium lace remained high in demand, amongst the well-to-do, because the cotton was much paler in color than the natural linen and it wasn't as durable as linen. So to mimic the color of linen, the machine manufacturers, even dipped cotton lace into coffee to see whether they can't mimic the real linen look and entice their customers. But, people with money still preferred the handmade Belgium lace and the trade went on whether it was allowed or smuggling.

[00:23:21]Well, a last story about Belgium lace is about the Mechelen lace. Mechelen was a little town just outside of Brussels, and it also made very fine laces and the distinctive characteristic of this lace, was the use of this thicker, silk thread that they interweaved. It was called a gimp thread and this made it special. It looked very different. And it was woven on a net background. The production of this lace also ceased in 1834, and by then there were only eight producers of the Mechelen lace. And one of the reasons for this was because by that time knit or tool, as we know, it, was actually a machine produced in France. So, that's how, you know, it took over the place, and people used a machine-made knit to do embroidery that looked like lace and was cheaper obviously. 

[00:24:25] Churches in Belgium are the fortunate and proud owners of some of the most exquisite and valuable existing lace collections in the world and Bruges are today seen as the lace center of Belgium and a lot of tourists go there. It's a pretty little town, but it also has a lot of lace shops. Not everything is made by hand though, but they've got the museums, and it's actually ironic because Bruges wasn't the largest lace making center, but it just evolved as such. So that's more or less the story about the Belgium lace.

[00:25:08]Lindsey Dinneen: That is amazing. Oh my goodness. Thank you for sharing.

[00:25:13]Elna VanGreuning: So now I can tell you a little bit about the English lace, because it also became a very popular pastime actually in 1976. It was actually in England that lacemaking really bloomed again. So the declaration of the Edict of Mantis in 1595 caused Protestants, known as huguenots, to flee from France and Flanders because they were both Catholic countries to various corners of the world. For almost 200 years, this flight of huguenots went on. In the process, the skill of lacemaking went with them. And that's actually how it went to Holland. Many went through Holland and that gave their lacemaking a boost. Holland did have lacemakers because they were so close to Belgium. But it was never at the scale and the quality of Belgium. So with the lacemakers fleeing France and Flanders, many of them went to Holland and many went to England. After some of the huguenots settled in England, in 1695, there were more than a hundred thousand lacemakers from France in England. During the French revolution, the lace schools and linen factories closed and stock got so low, which then boosted the English lacemaking industry and forced the British to  import more lace from Belgium because they couldn't provide in all the lace for the nobility.  King Charles the second loved lace and he ordered 600 yards of lace to adorn his nightgowns alone. Only for his nightgowns.

[00:27:04] Lindsey Dinneen: That is amazing and very lavish

[00:27:08] Elna VanGreuning: That's right. So when you watch these old movies again, just watch and see whether you see the lace, because it's there, but unfortunately, with the industrial revolution, machine-made lace soon took over the handmade lace industry in England. And by 1765, as I said earlier, the net background was made by a machine . And so handmade lace in England changed into a hobby, and not a career, and died for almost a hundred years. There were hardly anybody making handmade lace in England. Until the 1970s, it surfaced again. So that's just a little bit about the lace in England and the Victorian Albert Museum in London, if you ever get a opportunity to go there, they also have a magnificent collection of lace from all over the world and it's worth visiting. So what about America? I'm sure you're wondering, did it ever come to America?

[00:28:15] Lindsey Dinneen: I am wondering,

[00:28:17]Elna VanGreuning: So, it indeed did. Lacemaking was brought to America by European immigrants and soon became a popular hobby in several communities. One of the earliest and best known lace home industries was in Ipswich in Massachusetts. They started in 1639 and by the 18th century, they were quite a home industry and produced beautiful lace as well. And it was in the fashion of the European lace, mostly torsion. It's still a beautiful lace. Today, there still is an international organization of lace in the US and most states still have an active Guild. So if anybody would be interested in seeing what they're doing and, you know, I noticed that the Guild here in Virginia has a big exhibit right now in Culpepper, but because of COVID-19, you know, the museum there's closed. So that is something to go and visit after everything opens. And then in 1907, Mrs. James W. Pinscher suggested to the Smithsonian Institute to put together a collection of lace. She and some of her well-to-do friends collectively donated or loaned 500 pieces of lace to the National Museum of American History. And it is still there today. So not all of it's on display, but they are the proud owners of the lace. So, yes, it is something that you could even make in the US and get involved in.

[00:30:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wonderful. Well, first of all, thank you. That was deep and rich. And I really appreciate knowing more 'cause,  I shared with you beforehand, this is new to me and I'm very excited to learn more. So first of all, thank you for that. . So if somebody is interested in getting involved, is there a good way to start that you recommend?

[00:30:30]Elna VanGreuning: I would recommend going through the International Organization of Lace in the US and then you can go to your state, contact them, but I think they also give places where you can order all these things, but you'll have to get a good book. It's the books that you can teach yourself. It's not impossible to teach yourself, but it would be wise to, or helpful to join a guild. And I'm sure most guilds will have somebody that loves teaching other people the skill.

[00:31:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. And then do you have any particular recommendations if someone maybe isn't able to start, you know, making it themselves, but they would like to support artists who do-- do you know of any kind of resource or would you also suggest going to the guild to kind of try to find those makers where we can maybe support them?

[00:31:31]Elna VanGreuning: Yes. I think the guild, the International Organization would be the best place to start, because, I saw exhibit of people in Sutton, Virginia, over Christmas through the guild. They had an exhibit and they actually sold some of their products. So they may made little Christmas decorations, crosses, they even had Easter eggs adorned with lace. So people are not necessarily making typical lace anymore because very few people would wear, or use lace fans and things like that. So when you get a beautiful pattern--I've made quite a few lace collars. I framed them and I framed things for my grandchildren.

[00:32:15] Or you can make a handkerchief, and have it embroidered with the dates of somebody getting married. So yes, you can make practical things, but I think people are thinking of adapting the lace and making more, you know, things for the house that, or you could use, or that's more fashionable today. And, the various guilds would be more productive and more and more initiative. I wouldn't be able to say--some would be more traditional and only do the old patterns, and they're beautiful old patterns. I mean, if you see it, you would just wish, "Oh, I'll make two yards of lace." I made 14 yards of lace for my children's christening dresses. That's, you know, 37 years ago. Maybe people still do that, or people that are into making porcelain dolls, they make their own clothes. They would also make the lace for those, for the dresses. I'm sure there are a lot of uses for that.

[00:33:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. Perfect. Okay. Thank you. Yes, that's helpful. Okay, okay. Well, I have a couple questions that I love to ask my guests--just personal opinion about art. Is that okay if I ask a couple of questions?

[00:33:25] Elna VanGreuning: Yes. Yeah, sure.

[00:33:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:33:34]Elna VanGreuning: I think art is anything that's so beautiful for the eye that you either wanted to touch it, hear it, see it, you know, and you could even eat it, if it's like, in cake. So it's something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:33:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. I love that answer. Okay. What do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:34:02]Elna VanGreuning: I think they give other people a way of escaping. Not everybody, you know, has the talent to be an artist. Or maybe everybody's got the talent. We just don't work on it, maybe. You know, I always think I can't sing or draw. So therefore I want to, you know, stress that art can be different forms. And I think artists brings a form of art to us that maybe we cannot make ourselves or participate in, but can appreciate. And I think it's very important because I think we can't just work all the time. I think it's a stress. It helps with stress and I just think for your own psyche, it's wonderful to enjoy something beautiful.

[00:34:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Alright. And my last question--I can define my terms a little bit in it--but, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So what I mean by exclusive is, an artist create something and they share it with the world and they allow whoever is experiencing it to take from it what they will. So the artist doesn't necessarily provide any context or background to what they've produced. Versus inclusive, meaning that the artist shares maybe their intention behind it. What inspired it? Just so that you kind of as an audience, or viewer or whatever, have a little bit to at least start with when you are evaluating it for yourself.

[00:35:44] Elna VanGreuning: Yes. I think a little bit of both, you know? Sometimes when you go to a museum and you just stand in front of something, you can see "Oh, this is a painting of a river and it's a sunny day" and you can make your own conclusion.  But other times you might look at something and because you don't know the history or the setting, you can't fully appreciate it. So therefore, when I go to a museum, I always love taking a tour because I always feel I learn so much and I see it in a different perspective. So, I think there's a place for both.

[00:36:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Okay. Wonderful. Well, thank you.

[00:36:29]Elna VanGreuning: Thank you very much, Lindsey.

[00:36:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Well, I just want to say again, thank you so, so, so much for taking the time today to share with us about lace and its origins and how we can participate. I just want to say in general, thank you also for creating art and sharing it. And, I appreciate that you make the world a more beautiful place. So thank you.

[00:36:56] Elna VanGreuning: Thank you very much. Bye bye.

[00:37:00]Bye!

[00:37:01] Lindsey Dinneen: If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:37:11] Hey, Artfully Told listeners. I'm excited to share with you a little bit about one of my very favorite resources for artists. It's a website called Arteza. They have incredible products, but what makes this company really unique is that they have supplies that are affordable to creators with every budget. So whether you're just starting out, or dabbling or you, or you do have that budget available to you, they do have options for every budget level. They provide the tools, but you steer the way. Literally you can access hundreds of thousands of high quality, unique products through their website. And right now they are offering a promo code to receive 8% off of any purchase and you can access the link and the promo code in my comments and show notes.

In this episode, I welcome my husband, Kevin Dinneen! He shares about his first time attending a professional dance company's performance, and how there was no "guidebook" for dating a professional dancer before he wrote one. 

Read "Flowers Are a Thing": https://www.facebook.com/notes/vidadance/flowers-are-a-thing/1521301624845093/

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Schedule your podcast interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Artist's Edge: The Mission of Artist’s EDGE is to raise the level of Business Intelligence, Life Skills and Emotional Intelligence for people who are committed to expressing their passions, their creativity, and their unique genius through their careers, helping them reach higher levels of success with ease. Click here to access all courses!

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 015 - Kevin Dinneen

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as, as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I am your host Lindsey, and I am excited to be sharing a story from my special guest today, and that is my very own husband, Kevin. Welcome, Kevin. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:47] Kevin Dinneen: Yes. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:49] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. So I know that you have a social story about art that you'd like to share with us today.

[00:00:55] Kevin Dinneen: I do. Unfortunately, this is going to be a rerun for you.

[00:01:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay!

[00:01:00] Kevin Dinneen: You lived it and, and then you heard it several times. but I'd like to tell the story of when I was thrown into the deep end of attending ballet. This might surprise you all: there's not a primer out there. There is now because I created it. So check that out later, "Flowers are a Thing" on Facebook. Look it up. But there was not a primer or a, how to, or a, what do you call those--quick-start guide--there wasn't a, there wasn't anything.

[00:01:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:01:32] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:01:33] Lindsey Dinneen: So you were going to come see a show of mine. Actually, we had just met.

[00:01:41] Kevin Dinneen: You got that right! That's funny because that's an alert from what is, what is that app?

[00:01:47] Lindsey Dinneen: It's a text messaging app. So yeah, it has nothing to do with what's going on right now, but good timing. Perfect timing.

[00:01:55] Kevin Dinneen: Right. Okay, so let's backtrack. So the first day I met Lindsey was at a church function, and I happened to learn that she was a professional dancer and that she would be performing soon. And, I decided, "Hey, it would be cool if a group of us, that were in the church group , went and, and saw the performance." I decided to go ahead and organize this thing. And we got like six people to go in, and buy tickets and go support her. Now, the interesting thing is that that was the first day that I met her. Then I started like planning it and running by like, "How do I promote it? Does this email do it justice? I don't know what I'm talking about. Did I use the words?" Right. And, and that was like a week or two in maybe?

[00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I don't, yeah. I don't even know if it was that long because we met, and then I want to say either that night or the next day you sent me an email asking if you had the right wording or if I would change anything, it was really pretty quick because the performance was only a couple of weeks away at that point.

[00:03:10] Kevin Dinneen: So, so fast forward to the day before, slash day of, I really started to like Lindsey and I had already decided that I was going to ask her out. But she's got this upcoming performance that was going to be at the Kauffman Center for Performing Arts. That's the legit place in Kansas City. There is not a better professional theater anywhere. I mean, it's amazing. It rivals the one in Sydney, right?

[00:03:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, the Sydney Opera House for the acoustics.

[00:03:47] Kevin Dinneen: So, anyway, so I wasn't gonna ask you out and throw you off your game, and either, either burden you with having to let me down or be so excited that you couldn't think about your work.

[00:04:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure.

[00:04:00] Kevin Dinneen: So, yeah. I only think on the opposite ends of the spectrum, apparently.

[00:04:05] Lindsey Dinneen: It wasn't a happy medium where I'm just like, "Yeah, this works."

[00:04:08] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. "Well, whatever--this dude? Nevermind."

[00:04:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Details.

[00:04:14] Kevin Dinneen: So a little while before the performance, like a week before I decided that I was going to ask you out. Then I found out that your parents and your brother and sister-in-law were going to be at the performance as well.

[00:04:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes.

[00:04:34]Kevin Dinneen:  So now I'm worried, 'cause I've got to make a good impression because I like her. So I have to make a good impression on her family. And the night before I start thinking, you know, is it customary to do something? And I, and flowers come to mind. And I, I think of the opera and there's roses being thrown on the stage, and ice skating, they throw all sorts of stuff, stuffed animals and flowers and all that. And, so I got to thinking is, "Am I supposed to do that? Would it be weird if I did, or would it be weird if I didn't?" I didn't know the answer, so I Googled it and I remember some of the images coming up where little girls getting flowers after a recital. And so I was then worried thinking, "Oh, maybe for dance, this is, you know, just for girls--and boys, I guess, but anyway--like little kids after a recital." And I just imagined like, giving you this bouquet of flowers and you're like, "Uh, did you miss where I said, I'm a professional?"

[00:05:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh no!

[00:05:48] Kevin Dinneen: "I am not a student at a recital." And then, you know, the other way around, I show up with nothing and she's like, "Oh, I guess he doesn't care." 

[00:06:00] Lindsey Dinneen: You think in extremes.

[00:06:01] Kevin Dinneen: Again? Yeah, yeah. It's either. Yeah. So, I got to thinking and I thought, "Okay, so let's do, let's do something, but we don't have to fall into the flower or no flower category and you can do your own thing." So I thought about the conversation that we had had where I found out that she liked Granite City Brewery's chocolate cake. There was her favorite cake.

[00:06:27] Lindsey Dinneen: It's amazing.

[00:06:28] Kevin Dinneen: And so I go and watch the performance, and then I didn't bring the cake in beforehand because I thought, you know, this is a fancy theater. Oh, also I'd never been there. I didn't know the rules or anything. And I figured, you know, it's a little bit self-obsessed if I called to see if I can bring cake , like, "I know you've got a lot going on, but this is important. Can I bring cake? It's for a date? Thanks for taking my call."

[00:06:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:07:00] Kevin Dinneen: And so I didn't want to call to ask that. So, so I decided what I'll do is, I'll just leave it in the car. And then after the show, I'll just run out, grab it and bring it back. And, so I watched the show, Lindsey was awesome. And, then I meet her parents and her brother and sister-in-law and all that goes really well. And I was like, " Hey, I'll be right back." So I leave and I go out to the car, I grabbed the cake and then, I get back to the door and I go to go inside and the door is locked.

[00:07:37] Lindsey Dinneen: I forgot this part.

[00:07:40] Kevin Dinneen: The door is locked and there's no one around. So right now there's a cast party going on. Right? So, so the people that are gonna stay are going to be there for awhile and the people that have left, like they left a while ago. If they were going to leave, they were gone. And so I'm just, I'm stuck and I'm freaking out. And,  I go all the way around this building. There are two entrances, right?

[00:08:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Mind you though, this is, this is a bit of a walk. It's a huge building.

[00:08:10] Kevin Dinneen: It's a huge building. And there's a back that's in the garage. So you have to go all the way around the garage and then around the building. And then, you know, the entrance is, is actually cut into the building. So I actually have to go a good four blocks. Right?

[00:08:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I think so.

[00:08:29] Kevin Dinneen: A good four or five blocks. And so, I pass people on the street and they're--'cause I'm in a suit with this Granite City carry-out bag walking, like someone's chasing me.

[00:08:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and it is, you know, January, so it's freezing!

[00:08:44] Kevin Dinneen: And it was January, like 9:30 or 10:00.

[00:08:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably.

[00:08:49]Kevin Dinneen: So like I wonder what they thought my condition was or my situation was.

[00:08:54] Lindsey Dinneen: It's a cake emergency.

[00:08:55] Kevin Dinneen: A cake emergency-- so then I get around to the front of a building and, I see an, I don't know, he's an usher or what-- he sees me waiting there with a bag and I, I wave at him and he comes over and I said, I'm friends with a dancer, and I just ran out to my car and I got locked out. I am part of the after party upstairs. And he's like, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, come on in." So I was like "Whew." I thought for sure I was going to have to, that this was going to be a whole thing. No, once you leave, you can't come back or something. And then I can see our successful relationship just melting away at that very moment because this usher took it upon himself to be a guard, sent me away, and all of my hopes and dreams were dashed. Anyway...

[00:09:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Anyway, the flair for the dramatic.

[00:09:45] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. So, so I get back and when I get back, it was perfect timing because Lindsey and her family were actually headed to the elevator to go downstairs, to leave, when I caught up. I actually don't remember what we talked about heading to the elevator, but I didn't mention anything about what was in my hand. And I saw you and I just totally forgot the dilemma that I had just been in. And, so we're riding down in an elevator, with Lindsey and her parents. And I remember her dad was on one side of her and her mom was on the other. And I said, "Oh, and I have this chocolate cake for you. And, and she smiled and we were really awkward, but luckily Lindsey was grinning ear to ear. And so we get out of the elevator and there's just like this, like probably 10 or 15 seconds where no one said anything.

[00:10:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, we were just awkwardly grinning at each other.

[00:10:44] Kevin Dinneen: And your parents are just watching.

[00:10:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, everyone else, 'cause there was a friend of yours also in the elevator with you and he was also just like, nobody kind of knew what to do.

[00:10:56] Kevin Dinneen: So, yeah, so we leave the elevator and I said, "Hey, so I was going to get your flowers, but I didn't know if flowers were a thing. And so, I thought I'd get you chocolate cake instead." And luckily Lindsey smiled and was like, "Chocolate cake is a thing too."

[00:11:16] Lindsey Dinneen: I'm pretty sure I affirmed that flowers indeed are a thing, but chocolate cake is a thing too. Yeah. Yeah. And it's great because it's now a tradition and kind of everybody who knows me as a dancer knows about this thing. So they'll even ask about it, like "When are you getting your cake at the end of the performance run?" And things like that, 'cause it's, it's always, it's a tradition now.

[00:11:44] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, and so since Lindsey is the Artistic Director, and runs a professional dance company. Whenever we have a cast party, then we always have chocolate cake that's for everyone.

[00:11:56]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And it's really fun, 'cause we get to share that story. And, yeah, I just remember thinking, you know, just grinning at you from across the elevator. 'Cause we were like on either side. And silence. And we're just like, transformed into these like super awkward, you know, love-struck teenagers. Like your relationship isn't even really happening yet, but we think we probably like it each other. Yeah, I think that was definitely proof though, for me anyway, that you, you liked me and that you paid attention. That was a big thing actually, 'cause you could have just been like, okay, I think she said the cake and got it from anywhere, you know? Excellent. Well, thank you for sharing your story about art, Kevin.

[00:12:40] Kevin Dinneen: Oh, and if anyone wants to hear more about that story...

[00:12:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Ah, yes.

[00:12:44] Kevin Dinneen: And they want to learn more--maybe, you know, we're speaking right now to someone who's in a similar place and aspiring to date a dancer. And you know, maybe you're not sure if it's for you, or you're not sure if you can hack it. Well, I do have some tips and best practices for courting and dating a professional dancer. So check out "Flowers Are a Thing" on Facebook and you will be more prepared.

[00:13:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. And, dancers will definitely get a kick out of it because you're going to relate to all of it too. So yeah. Enjoy.

[00:13:24] Kevin Dinneen: Bobby pins has its own section.

[00:13:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. And that should be enough right there as we all know, but, yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks, Kevin. And, a couple of quick questions, if you don't mind.

[00:13:38]Kevin Dinneen:  Oh, you're not going to ask me the questions I helped you come up with you.

[00:13:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah, I am. Okay.

[00:13:43] Kevin Dinneen: Okay.

[00:13:45] Lindsey Dinneen: How do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:13:52] Kevin Dinneen: Okay, so to me, I think art is, is taking some base components, some raw material and forming that raw material into something that a viewer or listener or someone experiencing that in whatever shape or, or vessel medium that might be, and something that enhances their lives. Whereas you take this, there's a piece of paper and this pen and separately, you glance over it, but you take those things and you combine that into a, into a moving-- I don't mean moving physically, but something that moves the person that sees it. And that is what art is. You have these, these raw materials that you create an experience from, and I think that's art and it's it's on every--it doesn't have to be happy. It doesn't have to be sad. It doesn't have to be hard to understand. It doesn't have to be easy to understand. It's just creating something moving from raw materials.

[00:15:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, I like that answer. That was awesome.

[00:15:09] Kevin Dinneen: I just came up with that by the way.

[00:15:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that was seriously off the fly, because we had come up with these questions a while ago, but I don't think he thought they would be used against him, so to speak. Okay. What do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:15:27]Kevin Dinneen: You know, I'm going to kind of cheat because I think it's up to each individual artist, and I think all of the roles of art are important. So you can think of the role of an artist portraying a social issue to bring about positive change. That's so important, but if you have an artist who is really gifted and really enjoys entertaining, a lighthearted entertainment, then I think that that's where they need to go. Then that is just as important of a role as, you know, bringing a social change or whatever, 'cause that's also a social change actually. And maybe, maybe an artist feels that he or she is is called to educate through art or inform through art. I think that they are all important and I feel like it's important for each artist to embrace his or her passion, and not conform to what they were, what he or she was told is art.

[00:16:32] Oh, it's not art if, you know, people can understand it. Or it's not, it's not art unless it's on canvas, or it's not art, unless it's to the point where it gets into a museum, or whatever it is that that people are told is not art. If you're it, whatever it is, I think whatever an artists' passion is, I think it's important for them to play that role. 'Cause they're going to do it better than if they were doing something else and they're going to do it better than someone else who has a different passion as well. So I think they're all important. And the most important thing is to follow your passion.

[00:17:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree. Okay. Final question. Should art be exclusive or inclusive? Exclusive meaning that the artist does his or her job, so to speak and then, it's up to the individual to interpret it without any kind of assistance, whether that's knowing the reason behind the piece or, you know, what inspired it or whatever. Versus inclusive meaning that more people would be able to understand it because the artist is going to express the reasoning behind it, or the significance of the mediums they've chosen.

[00:17:50] Kevin Dinneen: So for exclusive, this would be, I create this piece, and all I ever let anyone know about it is--let's say it's a painting. They just see the painting. And that's all I ever say about it. Whereas inclusive would be, if you're not maybe seeing things like I do, this is a painting that was brought on from the time I was in a car accident, so you'll notice that a lot of the edges are, are harder. Makes me think of like, you know, whatever it's things like that, like explaining the piece, there may be a lacquered by the meaning or audible track. You put the headphones on. And it's me talking about my process and stuff like that. Right?

[00:18:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. So not simply, you know, this is "Watercolor on Canvas," which it might be useful, but more about the piece.

[00:18:41] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. My answer is a, is a super hard inclusive. Just because I haven't been able to enjoy a lot of pieces of art because I didn't know what I was supposed to take from it. I, you know, I didn't understand-- boy, there's a lot of anger. I can, I can see really violent stuff here. And I, but I don't know. I don't know why. And I don't know if this person is justified. I don't know what's going on. For me, for an artist not to explain what's going on and say, "Oh, well, you get what you want to get out of it." Well then most people  don't get anything out of it . Or they don't get nearly as much as they would if they heard the story behind it or heard the process that created it. And I think that's very important. I don't understand when someone creates something, I don't understand why they wouldn't want everyone to be able to see it the way they're wanting it to be shown.

[00:19:58] Lindsey Dinneen: So to that point, do you feel that there's value though an artist creating a completely open-ended piece where even for themselves their intention behind it was to have a sort of, you know, vagueness?

[00:20:15] Kevin Dinneen: Yes. I understand the reason behind it, but it frustrates me just like every movie that ends without knowing if they're actually gonna be together or is he actually going to make it out alive? Yes, there's a storytelling element to that. And there's a feeling that it leaves you with  of wanting more and this unresolved, whatever it is, that you're left with, that actually leaves a lasting impression. And I understand that that's a part of art, or can be, but it's frustrating to me. I would like to know what happens, you know, I'll go with you. I'll go with you on a story, but take me to the end. Don't leave me hanging.

[00:20:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Excellent. Well, thank you so much again, for being part of our podcast today. I am delighted to be able to feature that story. It's a pretty fun one, of course I'm a little biased, but it did put him in a very good place right away for me to want to date him. I mean, I already was interested, but you'd shown up to something that was like, you barely knew me at the time and made the commitment and actually followed through. And then he brought me chocolate cake.

[00:21:30] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, fellows, fellows, listen.

[00:21:33] Lindsey Dinneen: For real, and cared enough to even have the question is, you know, our flowers a thing? Which most people, I don't even think it would cross their minds. So, yeah. But on that note, thank you so much for listening. And if you have your own stories to share with our listeners, we would love to hear them. So please feel free to contact me at any time and we will get you set up here in an interview. All right. Well, thanks again for listening and we'll catch you next time.

[00:22:03]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:22:13]Hey there, Artfully Told listeners. I wanted to share a really amazing resource with you that I think you will find invaluable. This website is called Artists' Edge. The mission of Artists' Edge is to raise the level of business intelligence, life skills, and emotional intelligence for people who are committed to expressing their passions, creativity, and unique genius through their careers, helping them reach higher levels of success with ease. Artists' Edge is the education arm of Deborah Russell Coaching. And she is an awesome person who uses all of her business background and skills to really assist artists become who they want to be. She has a bunch of different product courses that you can go through as well as personalized coaching. If you are a wannabe artist that wants to turn their passion into a career, or is an already established artist that wants to take their career to the next level, she is the person to talk to you about this. So please follow the link in my comments and show notes.

In this episode, I welcome Julie Ulstrup! She is a professional portrait photographer, currently based out of Fort Collins, Colorado. She shares her journey from her first experiences with art to doing landscape photography, and what inspires her with portrait photography now. (The episode cover image is one of her portraits, from her most recent project, 50 Over 50!) 

Get in touch with Julie Ulstrup: https://www.julieulstrup.com/ | https://www.facebook.com/JulieUlstrupPhotography/ | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwcnAX2kZHvPCfQoJY75hng?reload=9&view_as=subscriber 

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Arteza: Arteza makes art supplies affordable to creators with every budget. Art is about the journey. They provide the tools – you steer the way. Click here and use promo code PB8PROMO for 8% off your entire order!

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 014 - Julie Ulstrup

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23]Elna:  Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I am Lindsey. I am so excited that you are here listening, and I am very delighted to be welcoming our guest today. Her name is Julie Ulstrup and she hails from Fort Collins, Colorado, although she works all over the world and I can't wait to hear all about that. She is a portrait photographer, as well as so many other things, as so many people are multifaceted. And I cannot wait to share Julie's stories with you and also learn who she is and all that she brings to the world. So thank you so much for being here, Julie. I really appreciate it.

[00:01:14] Julie Ulstrup: Oh, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you, Lindsey, for hosting this podcast and you know, really bringing some stories about art into the world. I love it.

[00:01:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my pleasure. Well, I would love if you would take just a moment to maybe introduce yourself and share a little bit about, you know, who you are and how you've gotten involved in photography. And just a little bit about you, if that's okay.

[00:01:40] Julie Ulstrup: Yeah, that would be great. Well, like you mentioned, I am a portrait photographer and I have a portrait studio in Fort Collins, Colorado. So I, and I serve people from around the country. There are a lot of people who visit Colorado, obviously, and also around the world. I've got a full indoor studio and then this quintessential Colorado property where I have outdoor space that I can have very large groups. I, again, I do families, I do generation photography. I also do headshots and personal branding as well as high school seniors. So I think it's all the good stuff. I feel like photography is something that has, it's been part of my life really since I was born.

[00:02:34] My grandparents, my mom's family, owned the camera store before I was born. And so, and I was the oldest grandchild and I was photographed all the time. There are millions of things, probably pictures of me and then when I was in high school, I really developed this passion for photography and I loved it, went to college and I was a journalism major and took all of the photography classes that I could. And then even right after college, I worked for a very prestigious photography studio in Chicago, where I grew up. And then I decided I had to get a, like a "grownup job" and be a real grownup, do grownup things, you know, and I had done very well in photography. I worked for a photography studio in college, and this was back in the day when we took rolls of film with us and I photographed sorority and fraternity parties, but I just didn't really see it as--well, I didn't really see it as art and I also didn't really see it as a way that I could have a viable business and earn a living and have a lifestyle that I really wanted.

[00:03:53] So fast forward, 20 years later, actually maybe 30 years later. I always have loved photography. And I worked as a school counselor in a middle school, a high school and at the university level. And so really connecting with people is what I'm incredibly passionate about. You know, helping empowering people, helping people see who they are. And I realized that my love of photography and my love of really connecting with people and helping empower and inspire them could come together in a way that was really beautiful. So that's, that's the really short cliff notes version by very long photography journey that has been so incredible in my life. And. And I can't even imagine what my life would be like without it.

[00:04:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing about that. And I know that in your life that you've probably encountered many, many interesting things that are art-related that have spoken to you, but I would just love to hear--are there any particular moments that really stand out to you as being special or particularly meaningful?

[00:05:22] Julie Ulstrup: Yes. Well, like I said, I grew up in the Chicago suburbs and I had a phenomenal photography teacher. And he also taught at The Art Institute of Chicago. So every year we got--and I took every photography class that I could--every year, we got to go down to The Art Institute and, you know, walk around and see different things and do different things. Well, because he was an instructor there, we had special access to photographs that the general public did not have access to. And I will never forget one time. We went to, we were, we were down in this room, this conference room with a big table, and this was in my third year of photography. So it was all of the people who were the people who've taken photography for several years and we were passing around these photographs.

[00:06:23] I still get chills when I think of it, of, you know, it was just an incredible experience to, to see in real life, in my own hands in front of me, these photographs that I had only seen in books and really, yeah, powerful for me to be able to have that experience and realize the power of art at the time. I felt like landscape art really spoke to me. So, you know, again, some of the great landscape photographers of course, but the moment photography, just really creating that moment and finding that moment was just beautiful. So, yeah, that's a big one for me. Actually, I do have a funny story because I really thought that landscape photography was what I was super passionate about.

[00:07:18] And I went to see Tom Mandelson, who is a contemporary photographer. He's still alive. And he does a lot of photography in the mountains, in the United States, in the West. And he was giving this talk and he talked about, "Oh yeah, we were all sitting out in the blind, in the, you know, in the middle of the night, waiting for the sun to rise. And after about eight hours in the cold and in the swamp, most of the people had gone back for breakfast, but a couple of us had waited and like, this is where I got this beautiful shot." And I don't even remember if it was an Eagle or a moose or something. And I thought, "Yeah, I'm going to be the woman who's going back and having coffee."

[00:08:02] I'm not, I don't want to sit in a blind for eight hours like that.  And then of course, Annie Liebowitz is one that I just love. She's an American photographer and she does a lot of very-- what are they? I would say she, she does a lot of magazine style shoots and does some really glamorous things. And she's also, I mean, she's photographed everybody from the Rolling Stones to the Queen of England. You know, so she's just pretty remarkable as well.

[00:08:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Okay. And so that was, you were saying that was in high school or I, or sorry, college.

[00:08:43] Julie Ulstrup: Yeah, that was high school, yup.

[00:08:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And then, so then how did that impact you as far as --well, actually, what I'm really interested in finding out is, so you, you were super inspired by landscape photography, but then you ended up as a portrait photographer. So how, how did that kind of weave about?

[00:09:05] Julie Ulstrup: Well, as I mentioned, for lack of a better way to say it, I got into grownup life, you know, because I, I had some jobs, and then I had some children, and I was able to stay home with them for awhile. And I had a, had a job at a university when my children were growing up, and I really became passionate about empowering young people to see further than they believed that they could see. And I always had this, you know, I took pictures of my children and I photographed my family throughout their life, growing up, that kind of thing. It never went away. And then I went through some really hard times in my life and I did the, I did some landscape photography and I enjoyed it.

[00:09:56] I loved it. I spend a lot of time outdoors in the Rocky Mountains are beautiful national parks, all of that kind of thing. And then I really decided, you know, I wonder if this is something that I could do more of, really find a different way. I was working as a school counselor in a high school and it can be exhausting and there came a time when there was a lot of paperwork involved and a lot of that, not really connecting with the students and their families, the way that I wanted to, because to me that was, and still is the best part about it. And so I started building my photography business. And started taking portraits, started working with families, started doing some high school seniors, some babies, that kind of thing.

[00:10:55] And really just started learning and growing my craft in a way that I could connect with people. And I think it was really even that experience that I mentioned just a few minutes ago with Tom Mangleson. Like, yeah, I don't want to sit in a blind for hours and hours to get a gorgeous photograph. Yes, I love being outdoors, but I would rather spend time with people and help them see the possibility of who they are. And that's what I do with my portrait work. I meet with people and I find out who they are and what makes them tick and the, the juicy, exciting parts about them. And. Photograph them. And I've had people come back and see their photographs after their session. And they're in tears because they have not seen themselves that way in a really long time, or they forgotten that part of themselves.

[00:12:05] So it's become a passion of mine to really help people because a lot of people, and you may know this, Lindsey, a lot of people, and it's more women--like, no, I don't want to be in the picture. No, you can't take my photograph now. Wait until I have my hair different or I get some new clothes or I lose 15 pounds. All of these things, there are all of these excuses why we don't show up. And so I help people to see that it's always good to show up and where you are right now is exactly where you should be right now and share that with the world.

[00:12:51] Lindsey Dinneen: That's beautiful.

[00:12:52] Julie Ulstrup: Thank you.

[00:12:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, and I love that. I love the fact that you're so passionate about empowering people and it's not-- it would be absolutely fine if it were just a job, so to speak, for you. But I love the fact that it's so much more to it for you. It's not just like, let me just take this picture and, you know, and, and make it the best it can be. It's who are you? And then let me show that to the world. I think that's incredible.

[00:13:22] Julie Ulstrup: Absolutely, it is for me. So I love it.

[00:13:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I think that is absolutely just gorgeous. I love that. So you mentioned that you've actually been able to do this, not just locally to where you are, but you've actually been able to do this all over the world. Can you share more about that?

[00:13:44] Julie Ulstrup: Absolutely. Well, I haven't yet traveled all over the world, but I have traveled quite a bit. I do have some clients--actually I client who lived here in Northern Colorado and she came for her photographs. And she was leaving the very next day to go back home to Dubai. And so she, we did her session and then we did a Zoom call and she chose her favorites. And she has said to me, "Oh, I would love if you could come here because there'd be so many women who want to be photographed." And anyway, so we, I did some photographs of her and also traveled some to other parts in the United States where I've done a family--I photographed a family reunion in Hawaii, and we've got some resorts here in Fort Collins and in the surrounding areas of the mountains where I've done some family reunion. I'm working with somebody in Chicago to do-- I've got a, a project going on right now. And I think we're going to be doing some sessions in Chicago, probably later this summer to really do some celebration of people. So that's more to come. That's really my, my goal to move forward with that when I travel and, and, you know, continue to use my studio here in Colorado and have people here because it's, it's pretty great.

[00:15:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Do you happen to have, and I know this is going to be a very difficult question to answer, but maybe one or a couple photos that you've taken that really stand out to you as being meaningful in? And I'm sure that, you know, that's, that's just such a hard question to answer, but you know, just something that stands out to you as being particularly meaningful, like you just, there's a memory attached or there's just something that just pulls at you when you see this photo?

[00:15:53] Julie Ulstrup: Well, that's funny. And when you ask the question, you, you know, you predicated it with--well, it's really, it's like asking a mother who's, you know, which of your children is your favorite and I've...

[00:16:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly!

[00:16:05] Julie Ulstrup: I've taken thousands and thousands of photographs and what the stories are, what really evoke the emotion for me-- I had two of them, as soon as you said it, two of them came to mind. So I'll share those with you. I photographed a family last summer who was celebrating the parents were celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary and I actually photographed them with their children and their grandchildren on the day of their 50th wedding anniversary. And this was up in Estes Park, and the gentleman was not super healthy, but the family was really happy to be together. And we got these beautiful, beautiful photographs and they don't live in, in Colorado. So again, we did an online ordering session where they chose their favorites and I heard from the wife in February.

[00:17:11] And she said to me that her husband had passed away at Christmas. And she said, "Julie, I don't know, I don't know if you know this, but those photographs mean so much to me. And they've really helped me through what has been a very difficult time." And so that kind of story is, I'm so grateful that I could do that for this family and that they have those memories and that those grandchildren will remember, you know, we had some formal portraits. And then there were some of the kids just laughing on their grandparent's lap. And so that those children, they will have those for generations. You know, they'll be able to share those with their children and their grandchildren. And so that was a very powerful experience for me recently.

[00:18:06] And then I also do some work for a local nonprofit, and I do some photographs of women who were going through breast cancer treatment. And one woman came to me for portraits and she didn't have hair at the time. And she was not feeling well and she didn't want to be photographed. And she'll be like, "Well, look at me. I don't have any hair." And she wasn't excited about having her photograph taken, but she really wanted to give back to this nonprofit that had helped her. And we did a whole session with her, and she has therapy dogs, and she came back to see her photographs and they were all up on a wall. I have a wall that's, but I helped the matted and the prints made--I'm getting chills --when I tell the story. And she just, she just started crying. And she said the day that she came to see the photographs, she wasn't feeling well because she was still going through cancer treatment. And she said, these photographs show me that I'm very much alive.

[00:19:23]Lindsey Dinneen:  Oh, wow.

[00:19:25] Julie Ulstrup: Still beautiful. Oh, without my hair, even without the things that she thought of herself that made her beautiful and a woman and all of those things. So that was a very powerful experience as well.

[00:19:43]Lindsey Dinneen:  That is incredible. I think you really, you completely nailed it when you were talking about it' s --I mean, you could, probably, from an artistic, from a professional standpoint, you could probably take the perfect photo of X, Y, and Z, but without the story behind it, it's not as impactful and, and, meaningful to you than when you have these incredible stories, like the two that you shared, where you, you were able to help somebody see a different perspective on them of themselves, or you were able to capture memories that will be cherished forever. And, and it's not just about this one, you know, photo or piece of art or music what's behind it. And I, I love that. That is so cool.

[00:20:38] Julie Ulstrup: Thank you. Yeah, I do too. I, interestingly, now there are all these stories coming up in my head like, "Oh, I wonder how this family's doing" or that, you know, when people who come in with their baby or, you know, even high school seniors, I think sometimes families think, "Oh, I don't want to do this. We're just going to do something, you know, we'll do something on our cell phones or we'll do a selfie, whatever," and they come and they have this experience to commemorate the passage of time, to commemorate something that's important to them--their children growing up. Their, you know, our families growing older. Our families having babies and changing, and, you know, that's such a precious thing in this world that we live in that can be so...whatever it is amazing, beautiful, busy, crazy hard. You know, that there are these moments that really are meant to be cherished and to take some time to, to celebrate that --I think is really valuable.

[00:21:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And I think, you know, maybe one of the things that's great about having a professional photographer do it is that you, you bring a different perspective to the family and you're able to draw out something different than maybe the mom who's taking a photo on her cell phone, which there's nothing wrong with that. But yeah, you're able to bring a little bit of a different take , I would say maybe as to, like you've talked about bringing out their personality or, you know, making sure that they know how special they are through your work, which is a unique way to go about it too. It's not just like, let's quickly capture this moment 'cause we need to. It's, let's cherish this moment 'cause we can.

[00:22:38] Julie Ulstrup: Absolutely. Absolutely. And one of the things that I have found too is one of the reasons that people don't have professional portraits made is they feel like it's very stressful. They feel like, "Oh, I need to have the right clothes and I need to have the right hair. And I need all of, all of those things and where am I going to have it done?" Yeah. I really help people walk through the process and I make it very pain-free for them. You know, we talk about, "Okay, what are you going to wear? And what do you, you want to, what is the, do you want something casual? Do you want something formal? What's the feel that you want?" Even with a headshot, a person, oh, I, you know, you don't want to have a headshot. I'm just going to do-- Well, you know what, if you want to attract people into your business or whatever to watch your YouTube video or whatever it is. You want something that's going to be an expression of really who you are deeply and authentically, because like you said, Lindsey, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a quick cell phone picture. Those are fun. You want to do those. You want to capture those times, and having something that's a little more thought out and mindful of really who you are, where you are right now.

[00:24:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Well, Julie, first of all, I just want to say thank you so much for sharing about your work and about your heart behind your work. And, I really, really appreciate you sharing some stories with us about, you know, The reasoning behind what you do, but also just some of these amazing stories of lives being touched. So thank you for that. I really, really appreciate it.

[00:24:40] Julie Ulstrup: You're so welcome. Thank you for this platform to be able to do that. I love it, Lindsey.

[00:24:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests if that's okay with you.

[00:24:53] Julie Ulstrup: Of course.

[00:24:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art, or what is art to you?

[00:25:03] Julie Ulstrup: Hmm, well, I believe I, I believe art is an expression and a like a, an interaction between the person who creates it and the person who's looking at it. And it's, it's a shared, it's a shared experience.

[00:25:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Beautiful. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:25:40] Julie Ulstrup: Well, I think it's to connect. To connect with my self as an artist who I am so that I can connect with the people in my art and the people who are looking at my art, experiencing my art for many, many years.

[00:26:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that connection is so important. Okay. And then for my final question--I'll explain a little bit about the terms that I'm going to use--do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is, so exclusive referring to an artist who creates a piece of, of art, whether that's, a photo or a dance or whatever it is and presents it to the world, but doesn't give much context behind it. So perhaps there's not necessarily even a title or a, the intention behind it or what inspired it or anything--just sort of here it is--and then up to whoever sees it to interpret it. Versus inclusive, meaning that the artist does share a little bit maybe about the intention behind it or what inspired it, or a funny moment that happened, or just provides a little bit of context so that the audience has that alongside the art.

[00:27:07]Julie Ulstrup: I think there's room for both of those, quite honestly. I think that sometimes when we create art--because I believe we are all artists, we're all creators--we might not even know what or why or how it came about. So I think there's room for that. And then I think there's also room for sharing my story around the creation of art. And I think that there is a difference for me as the artist and for the person whose portrait I'm taking. This is only in my case of art, but they will have a different interpretation around it. And often what I will do--when I work with my clients to see their portraits for the first time, I will be quiet --I will share my favorites of course, but I will let them experience it. And then I will share with them: "Oh, I love how we captured this expression and this part of you." So I think there's an exchange back and forth and sometimes having some context is really important. So I think there's room for both.

[00:28:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, thank you again so much. And if anyone wants to connect with you either to learn more about your work or just connect with you in some other way, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:28:48] Julie Ulstrup: Absolutely. My website is my name, julieulstrup.com, and I'm also on Facebook as Julie Ulstrup Photography. So that's another good way to connect with me. Either one would be great.

[00:29:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, thank you again, so very much. I'm a firm believer that when you share art with the world, you truly make it a better place. And so I just want to say thank you on behalf of myself at least, but also on behalf of the world for you sharing your, your love and your passion for photography with the world. Because I think what you do makes a difference and creates beauty. So thank you for that.

[00:29:34] Julie Ulstrup: You are welcome. Thank you, Lindsey.

[00:29:37] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. Well, that is all for today. Thank you so much for joining us. And if this episode has left you as inspired as it has me, I would absolutely love for you to share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:29:58] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:30:09] Hey, Artfully Told listeners. I'm excited to share with you a little bit about one of my very favorite resources for artists. It's a website called Arteza. They have  incredible products, but what makes this company really unique is that they have supplies that are affordable to creators with every budget. So whether you're just starting out or dabbling or you, or you do have that budget available to you, they do you have options for every budget level, they provide the tools, but you steer the way. Literally, you can access hundreds of thousands of high quality, unique products through their website. And right now they are offering a promo code to receive 8% off of any purchase and you can access the link and the promo code in my comments and show notes.

In this episode, I welcome Grace Strachan! Grace shares about her passion for the art of sending out greeting cards every single day, and the value of giving to give. She talks about the impact that a simple, heartfelt greeting card can have on someone's life. 

Get in touch with Grace Strachan: https://www.sendoutcards.com/u/greetingswithgrace | [email protected]

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | [email protected]

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Arteza: Arteza makes art supplies affordable to creators with every budget. Art is about the journey. They provide the tools – you steer the way. Click here and use promo code PB8PROMO for 8% off all purchases!

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 013 - Grace Strachan

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I  mean as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it, and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm Lindsey, I'm your host and so excited to be sharing more stories about art with you. And I am especially delighted today to have as my guest, Grace Strachan. She is an amazing person, super kind, thoughtful-- I can go on and on--very generous, just a wonderful, wonderful lady. And I'm so excited to have her on because she has a unique platform for the way that she shares art with the world. And, I don't want to spoil it, so I won't give too much away, but I am just thrilled to have her on the show. And just to share a little bit about what her experience with art has been and how she continues to, to bring art into the world. And I think it's just an incredible story. So without further ado, thank you, Grace, for being here today.

[00:01:29]Grace Strachan: Thank you, Lindsey, for inviting me. I'm thrilled to be here.

[00:01:33]Lindsey Dinneen: And Grace, I would love if you would share just a little bit about, you know, who you are a little bit about your story, whatever you kind of want to share. That'd be amazing.

[00:01:43]Grace Strachan: Thank you. Well, I actually, my background is in art. When I was a child, I actually took art lessons and had to go out and get a job to be able to pay for them. And so I actually drew and I also used to paint and I did photography. So my background was art. And then as I grew up, I actually ended up doing interior design. So again, very artistic, very color oriented. And then I spent the next, I dunno how many years of my life--I didn't end up doing interior design for very long . So I got to deal with your creative side, but I'm supplying, actually, products to the interior design, to market in commercial, as well as residential.

[00:02:29]But then now something that I actually fell in love with and got to be creative in a new way. And, I really consider it a lost art, and that is the art of communication and the art of card sending. So it was something that was very close to my heart because my mother always taught me that if you didn't send out a thank you card and thank somebody for a gift, you needed to give it back because you didn't show gratitude. And because it became a lost art and now it's becoming a big art, and something that people are really appreciating in their life. Again, I'm quite excited to be a big part of that new movement.

[00:03:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is incredible. Yeah, so, so definitely I'd love to hear your stories about, you know, about what that experience has brought to you.  I knew about the interior design, but I don't think I knew about growing up as an artist. So that's so fun. Do you still, do you still do any of that as well? Any drawing or the photography or anything like that right now?

[00:03:33] Grace Strachan: Well, I use the photography of course, for my cards and because I can download a picture onto a card.  I think you kind of suppress a lot of things. When I got married, it was just something that I just didn't do. And I'm seriously thinking about starting to maybe paint, draw again. And, I actually used to make my own clothes, too, so that's something I don't think I'll ever want to do again, but yeah, going back and drawing. And I think, yes, I think I'm seriously thinking about starting to do that again and maybe, drawing and painting and putting that on the cards as well.

[00:04:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah. Yeah. That would be amazing to have some of your original artwork on cards. That's really cool. So I would love to hear some of your stories about the way that writing and communication you were talking about . It's kind of a lost art. I'd love to hear more about your experience with that and, and just how it's impacted you and others, 'cause I know it's, it's really important.

[00:04:37] Grace Strachan: Thank you. Well, I have a couple stories I'd like to share with you. One of them is probably my favorite. I've been taught by Cody Bateman who actually owns a company that I'm associated with, Send Out Cards, to act on promptings. And what that means is that when somebody comes to your mind, to act on that, because that usually means that either they need to hear from you or you need to touch them. And one of the stories that I wanted to share was I had a boss who was probably the best boss I ever had in my life. And I actually worked for him for 13 years out of the 15 years with the company. And I had not seen him in about three or four years, and one morning I got up and the first person that came to my mind was him.

[00:05:23] And so I actually started, I actually decided to send him a card and you know, when I do something like that, I usually don't remember what I put on the card, but I remember that I wrote him a card and I pretty well said to him that he had been a mentor and that I had never, ever told him how much he meant to me. And that I felt bad that I hadn't ever told him that. But what I wrote, I don't really remember. I just remember that I felt good and I sent it. Well, three weeks later, I'm driving down, down the road in St. Louis with my other job that I had. And, I think pull over to the side of the road, 'cause my phone rang and there it was. And I hear, "Hey Gracious," which is what he called me. And I went, "Oh my goodness." And I couldn't believe it was Tom in this beautiful Southern accent. And I asked him how he was doing. And he said, "Good now." And I said, "Wow, that's great." And he said, "Yeah," he said, "I'm gonna tell you, I  just got back from a vacation. And we got our mail brought in. Oh, there's a card here from Grace." And his first reaction was, "Oh, I hope everything's okay."

[00:06:35] Well, Lindsey, my heart went into my throat. Oh yeah. I almost broke into tears at that time. And I realized right then and there that I hadn't, it was, I mean, it was a lost art. I had not been keeping in communication with them. He said, so him and Jo, they sat down and they read the card. He said, "We cried. And now I'm calling you." And he said, "And I just wanted to let you know, you totally made my day." He said, "I cried out of, of love." He said, "I've never had anybody tell me what they really thought of me and how a great mentor I had been to them." And he said, "You've probably made my entire year."

[00:07:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow.

[00:07:24] Grace Strachan: That proves the point of the fact that the written word is a lost art because we don't bear our hearts to people. We don't tell people what we think and how we think of them and share with them our true feelings. And that card was just a stock card out of our, our card catalog. And with a few words in it, it wasn't even very creative in any way, shape or form, but it affected somebody that greatly. The biggest thing I got from this too, was the fact that no more was I going to not stay in contact with this man, because he had been such a mentor to me and I have not talked to him in four years. And that is really, really sad. So that's my first story. The second story that I, that I was going to tell was actually a different one, but I, I actually had something happen in my life. I had lost my husband three years ago, and I'm going to tell you that when I received all the cards that I received in the mail from all the people that I knew in my life, I could literally cover a complete dining room table and three other tables with cards, just from people sending me sympathy cards and saying how much they love me, how much they, you know, they cared about me and they were sending prayers.

[00:08:56] And a lot of those cards had pictures of my husband and myself in them, the best keepsakes I've ever had in my entire life. And that probably meant more to me than anything. And I left those cards up. It took me three months before I could take those cards down because I would literally every day go over and pick a different card and read it.  So it made me realize how much we, the lost art hasn't really been lost. It's just been kind of put on the sideline. And we're bringing it back, you know, it's not really a lost art. It's been a delayed art and now it's a part that's coming back.

[00:09:41]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That is beautiful. And I'm sure you have probably a bazillion stories like that to share of people that you've touched, that you didn't even necessarily know why they came to your mind, but I love--so you have a very particular practice and I'm not going to spoil it for our audience because I want you to tell about it, but you have a very particular practice that you do, with the cards on a daily basis. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and kind of why that's important?

[00:10:11] Grace Strachan: Yeah, we call them cards of gratitude. I get up every day and like I said, that that morning, when I sent that card to Tom, that was acting on a prompting. So I get up every day and the first person that comes to my mind gets a card. And again, that, that means something because you're giving to give and the beauty of giving to give is that when you give back, the universe gives back tenfold. When you give to get, and what that means is that when you give to get, you're expecting something in return. So like I said, when I sent that card to Tom, I didn't remember what I wrote in it. I mean, I just wrote it and sent it because that was my, my card of gratitude, telling him I was grateful for knowing him and having a part of my life.

[00:10:55] So I, I do that every day. And actually the, the owner of our company, Cody Bateman, wrote a book on promptings and it, and that's what it is. It's a prompting and yeah, it's teaching you to touch people because when they come to your mind, they come to your mind for a reason. And so I do that usually every morning. And I try now to do it every night because I find that when I do it every night, I sleep better, because I've touched somebody from my heart before I go to sleep as well. So it starts my day off, but it also ends my day in a, in a really great frame of mind. And whatever I love about it is that-- the other story I was going to tell, and I probably should is one of my very best friends.

[00:11:43] One day she came to my mind and I didn't know why. And I just said, Oh, so I'll just send her. And I just put in it something like, you know, you can't be everything to everybody, but guess what? You're the best to me, or something like that. Something very, you know, probably kind of corny. But anyway, I wrote it and I sent it and the next Friday, my husband and I, my husband was still alive-- we were at dinner and all of a sudden my phone rang and I thought, "Oh, I can't believe that she's calling me. She knows I'm out for dinner with my husband. So I got her voice message and all it was was "wmwmwmw," and it was just tears. So I'm thinking, Oh, I said to my husband, I said, "Yeah, I think I need to call her back, 'cause I think there's something major going on." I don't know what's going on.  I called her and she said, "Oh, I'm so glad you called me." She said, "I've had such a bad week. And you know, just everything had gone wrong and everything was bad. And, you know, we were supposed to be going camping and we weren't going to go. I was going to cancel it 'cause I've had such a bad week." And she just--and I went, "Okay, okay." And I said, "Are you okay now?" She said, "Oh yeah. I was ready to cancel our trip."

[00:12:53] And she said, "And I just had this prompting to go to the mailbox and pick up the mail." And she said, she walked to the mailbox and there in the mailbox was my card. It was the only thing in the mailbox. So she walked back to the front stoop and she opened it up and started crying because she said it was exactly what she needed to hear, that she couldn't be everything to everybody. And that was what she had been feeling all week. And she said, she says, "I picked up your car and took it in the house and got prepared for the camping weekend." So what you send does mean something to somebody and it could be that, that one thing that might make their whole day.

[00:13:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I would love to hear your thoughts on, on the impact of words in particular, because I know that when you act on your promptings and you're sending these cards, you're obviously putting a lot of thought and care into the message that you're sending. And so I'd just love to hear a little bit about, you know, your process. So when somebody comes to mind and you decide to send them a card, how does it work from there essentially? Is there a particular pattern you follow when you write these cards, or how does that work for you?

[00:14:08] Grace Strachan: Actually, you'll be surprised to know there is none. Amazingly enough, I learned very quickly that when the prompting comes, it comes for a reason. Now I've had things happen where I've thought, huh? Why, you know, I just talked to that person. Why did that person come to my mind? And what's weird about it is there is no rhyme or reason, and I've had it happen where, I've, I've literally sent a card, and that afternoon, that person called me and said, "Oh, you know, I needed to talk to you." And, and something stressful had happened to them that day or whatever. And I've literally gone back into our system because our cards don't get mailed or don't get printed until after midnight. And so I've literally gone back into the system and changed what's been written in the card because they've told me something that's been stressful or something, and I needed to add to it. But typically the cards I write, I usually get out of my head, because I think if you try too hard to think about what you're going to write, it doesn't sound like you. So normally what I do is I sit back and I calm myself and I say, "Okay, why did this person come to my mind?"

[00:15:26] And a lot of the time it'll be guilt because I haven't talked to them for a while or I haven't communicated what I needed to communicate. And so then what I'll just do is just let, I really just let God do his work. And it comes to me and a lot of the time it can be maybe a phrase. It can be a couple sentences. I've been known to write paragraphs because depending on the person, but I really, there is no rhyme or reason. I just let my heart tell me what to write. And I've been known to only write a couple of words even. And I don't know, I don't know if that's affected somebody or not, because you don't, some people you hear from them, some you don't. I don't give to get, so I don't know. I've had people tell me six or eight months later, you know? "Oh, that card you sent me. I really appreciated it because such and such was happening that day." And, and, you know, and you don't know that that's happening. So I, I can't really say that there is a rhyme or reason to what I write, except that I don't try too hard. Does that make sense?

[00:16:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Well, and I think that in, in and of itself is an art that you can allow yourself to sort of sit with that prompting and then from there, allow the words that come to you to go into your card. I think that that is, that is great. Like you said, you don't want to, you don't want to think about it too much. You don't want to kind of force it because then you're not being maybe authentic. I think that's really neat.

[00:17:02] Grace Strachan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:03] Lindsey Dinneen: That's wonderful. And I, I know, I know you touch a lot of lives through that and I think it's--you've said a couple of times that you, you give to give. And I think that that is really beautiful and, and really important, you know, obviously. So,  I'm lucky, I'm a beneficiary of some of the cards that Grace has sent and they're always so beautiful and thoughtful and, and I'll, I'll have her share a little bit later about the platform that she uses. But I just want to say that it is, it is incredible because with that particular platform, you get to kind of design the card to an extent, and you can include pictures and obviously your own words. So for example, from Grace, I've gotten a picture of my cast after we finished our Nutcracker production for the very first time. She sent me this cast photo and it, it's perfect because frankly I probably would have never printed it out. And now I have a framed copy of it, which is so lovely to be able to, to have that memory, you know, in, in print form. Well, Grace, I have a couple of questions for you if that's okay.  So how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:18:22]Grace Strachan: Well, I think art is in the eye of the beholder. I really believe that. I consider art nature. I consider art beauty. I consider art feelings. I consider art love. I really believe that art is all around us. I don't think we appreciate art the way we should appreciate art. I get very sad when I hear about them taking art out of the schools. I just think that is the most, I don't know how to say it in a very polite way, but wrong. I'll just say it.

[00:18:58] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go!

[00:18:59]Grace Strachan: It's just, it's totally wrong. One of the biggest reasons I, I got into art as a child was because I happened to have a very good school system where we were taught art. And so I took, and then I ended up taking art on, you know, outside of school as well. So I think art is so important and it makes people creative. It helps children blossom in so many ways . And I think we, we tend to not appreciate the art around us. I grew up in a small city in Canada. So I grew up with art all around me, and I've always been, I felt very blessed by that because to have the theater and having that around me, I think gave me a different aspect and a different look on life. I ended up getting into working in theater and doing makeup and, and doing some backstage stuff when I lived in Canada. And that is, that's something that I could never, ever, ever, be lucky enough to repeat again. So I think art is just everywhere and everything.

[00:20:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I agree. I love that answer. Okay. What do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:20:14]Grace Strachan: To share their gift. To make sure that everybody is aware of their gift and to be proud of their gift. I think there's too many artists that, you know, I mean, I always remember hearing people say, "Oh, they want to be an artist. What are they going to do to make a living?" I find that sad. I find that very negative. I think what's wonderful about life now is that most people have more than one means of income. So artists have the advantage. Now there's a lot of ways that they can make a living, maybe not making okay, total living, but at least help support their art. And so I think the biggest thing is that people, when you have somebody that shows artistic talent, nurture that and, and have them share that with the world.

[00:21:08]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Okay. And then for my final question, I'll explain my terms a little bit, but it's--do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is exclusive referring to when an artist creates something and they put it out in the world, and they let the audience take from it, what they will without any real context to it. So that means that maybe we don't know the intention behind it, or we don't know the way that the artist was feeling at the time, or even what they necessarily want to communicate. Versus inclusive referring to, you know, the artists create something and they share their intention with the audience. So perhaps that's program notes or they at least have a title and description, or just basically something so they can help the audience understand the intention behind it. Regardless of what the audience draws from it, if that makes sense.

[00:22:09] Grace Strachan: Wow. That's heavy. That's a very, that's heavy, a deep topic. I think it depends on the art. Yeah. I think some, some art has to be very inclusive because I think there sometimes needs to be an explanation behind what the artist is trying to show. But exclusive also. I really cannot not say one or the other. I really believe that it should depend completely on the artist if they want to be inclusive or exclusive.

[00:22:46]Lindsey Dinneen:  Well, thank you so much for sharing, Grace. I so appreciate the time that you took today to tell us about all those stories, about the impact of words and being generous and giving back. And I would love if you wanted to share a little bit about how people can get connected with you, even about the platform that you use.

[00:23:06]Grace Strachan: Thank you so much. I would love to. Actually it is Send Out Cards and my Canadian comes out when I say "out," that's probably the only time people know I'm Canadian. And the best way to reach me is at www.sendoutcards.com/greetingswithgrace. And that is a platform that, that is my website. If you go there, please send a free card on me. Try out the system, take it for a spin, see what you think. And, and let me know. Another way to reach me is by email and it so, it's Grace and my last name is S T R A C H A N 2014 at gmail.com.

[00:24:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. And I would highly encourage anyone listening who is curious about the platform to definitely check it out. It is just a really neat way to send cards that are very unique. Grace, you actually have a phrase that you've been sharing that I love. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[00:24:21]Grace Strachan: I have a feeling, I know what you're talking about.

[00:24:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:24:25]Grace Strachan: That we have a high touch product in a no touch world.

[00:24:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Beautiful.

[00:24:31] Grace Strachan: Is that what you were talking about?

[00:24:32] Lindsey Dinneen: That's exactly what I was talking about. Yeah.

[00:24:35]Grace Strachan:  People need to know that, what we, what I believe I do is that I take those memories, those photos, the artwork--a lot of the people have photos in their phones. I mean, what do you do with them? Look at them, right? Well, I can take those photos off of Facebook that you share, pieces of art, may put them into JPEGs or PNGs and, and literally put them on a card. And send them out to your grandmother, who you don't get to see; your mother, who hasn't been able to see you maybe in six weeks, and share a memory that is a tangible touch. It doesn't fade away. It doesn't go away in your mind. It is something that you can share with somebody else and share that love and memory forever. And what we send, people keep.

[00:25:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.  I just want to say, Grace, on behalf of the world. thank you so much for sharing art. I think it's vital. I think it's so important that, that you are blessing people with--you have so much art, not just in that, in the card sending, but just in general. Thank you for sharing art with the world. I think you, I truly believe that when you do that, you make the world a more inclusive and beautiful and generous place. So thank you.

[00:26:04] Grace Strachan: Thank you, Lindsey. And I just want to say one thing, you know, during this time, being, being kind and showing gratitude is kind of, and again, and I'm really hoping, I don't know about you, but I don't want to go back to the old norm. I want kindness and gratitude, love to stay around for a long time. So, amen. I hope if nothing great comes out of this time that we've had to put up with, at least this will stay with us for a long time.

[00:26:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I absolutely agree. Absolutely. Well, thank you again, Grace, for joining us. Thank you for all the listeners who've joined us too. If this episode has left you as inspired as it has left me, I would be delighted if you would share it with a friend or two, and continue to spread art and joy into the world, and we will catch you next time.

[00:26:55]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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