“I have a friend who’s a library film composer and produces podcasts, and I was talking to him, I was giving him the kind of same thesis I talked about today. And he’s like, ‘yeah, I get it. But like, I’m the one who’s going to lose the job.’ Cause what he, this very specific, specified job he has [is] of composing kind of anonymous music for podcasts. And he’s successful, he wrote the theme of Serial, and he’s done a lot of big podcasts in New York Times and NPR and, uh, and he’s like, that’s probably the functional music which employed a lot of composers is probably not going to be needed as much.” – Drew Thurlow

This episode is the second half of my conversation with founder of Opening Ceremony Media and author of Machine Music: How AI is Transforming Music’s Next Act Drew Thurlow as we discuss the surprising musical trend Drew foresees as AI becomes more commonplace, the one lesson he always shares with music students when it comes to the future of AI, and the ripple effects that generated audio content and voice clones have already started to have across the music industry.

 As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - Future of AI in Creative Aesthetics

We pick up the conversation as Drew offers his prediction of how AI music, over time, might become as retro and nostalgic as lofi music today. “I have this theory that with all these AI hallucinations that are happening,” he explains, “that’s going to become its own creative aesthetic, and you’re going to start to see the AI vocal models, you know, the early AI vocal models [return].” He shares his observations as a guest lecturer and why he’s optimistic about the next generation’s relationship with AI, and the lesson he always shares with students. “I’d encourage students to have curiosity be your superpower,” he says. “And community is also really, really important. It was really important for me when I was starting out twenty, twenty-five years ago. It’s even more important now, with so much more noise out there and so many more distractions and so much more music and people doing it.”

(0:04:43) - Trends in Music Tech Startups

Drew talks about how the industry is evolving as digital media becomes the norm, and the opportunities for AI to increase revenue. “Streaming growth is slowing down,” he tells us. “You know, we’re running out of subscribers in the West and North America, western Europe and North America, and so labels and rights holders and artists are kind of in the mood to count their pennies.” He notes some of the less obvious ways that AI is increasing revenue, such as black box royalty collections and anti-piracy safeguards, and the versatile uses of generated audio content. “Adaptive audio companies [are] using machine learning and generative AI for health,” he says, “also in the gaming environments, which is a big business, where personalized music can adapt to you and your environment. It kind of reads your environment. So those are interesting, interesting companies.”

(0:10:09) - Emerging Trends in Music Tech

As our discussion comes to a close, we talk about how AI music is already impacting the industry, particularly for indie productions and freelance composers. “Generative AI instrumental music is probably going to be fine,” he says, “and they’re on a budget anyway. So it’s like that kind of middle class of artist who makes a living writing music for reality TV and podcasts and independent gaming, that’s probably where it’ll hit the most.” Drew talks about his latest projects, including his upcoming book and how listeners can get in touch, and he notes how quickly things have changed in just the last few months. “I remember the first, like, acoustic guitar sounds that came out of AI were pretty bad,” he tells us, “and I was like, don’t worry everybody, this is going to take a while. And then, six weeks later, it wasn’t true anymore. So I’m not putting any limits on how fast this tech can mature.”

Episode Summary

• Gen Z’s relationship with AI and how hallucinations might become an art form.
• How machine learning has optimized revenue streams and enhanced distribution models.
• AI’s role in gaming, health care, and more as the technology continues to evolve.

Connect with the Audio Branding Podcast:

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Connect with me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jodikrangle/

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Editing/Production by Humberto Franco - https://humbertofranco.com/

“And we got a new Beatles song. I can’t believe we’re talking about the Beatles…. But John Lennon recorded a really corrupted vocal before he tragically died, and it was just kind of there because of some stem separation tech that is only possible because of machine learning. They were able to clean up the vocals, fully on board with the John Lennon estate and the remaining Beatles members, and there’s a few others, but this is interesting. It’s just, it’s a new way of engaging with audio that people, fans are showing that they really like.” – Drew Thurlow

This episode’s guest is a former professional musician turned music executive and strategist. He served as Senior Vice President of A&R at Sony Music and has held leadership roles at both Pandora and Warner Music. As a graduate of Brown University with a master’s in Technology and Leadership, he blends creative insight with business acumen. His writing has appeared in Billboard, and he remains a sought-after voice on the intersection of music, tech, and innovation. His first book, “Machine Music: How AI is Transforming Music’s Next Act,” will be published in 2026.

His name is Drew Thurlow, and he’s also a fellow jury member for the International Sound Awards, which is how we met. As someone on the forefront of music and technology, he has a lot of great advice for sound creatives wanting to make their mark – both now and into the future.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - Evolution of Music Industry and Taste

Our conversation starts off with Drew’s early memories of sound and his start as a musician. “I was one of those kids,” he recalls, “who just didn’t have idle time without a guitar in my hands, and I didn’t think too much about it. I wasn’t super self-reflective about it, I just kind of like followed my instincts and continued to do that.” He tells us more about his career journey as a music executive and explains how much the business has changed since he first started out. “There’s the whole influencer thing wrapped up in it,” he says, “and the way people, especially Gen Z and younger millennials, fall in love with personalities and artists is different. It’s not necessarily bad, it’s just different.”

(0:12:36) - AI Impact on Music Industry

As the first half of our discussion wraps up, we turn to the question of whether AI might replace human artists, and Drew offers some surprising statistics. “From our best, really good estimates by places like Deezer and Spotify,” he says, “AI-generated music, even though it’s a measurable percentage of all the songs on [digital service providers], is a third of a percent of the royalty pool, and I just want to reiterate that it is a rounding error. Nobody wants this music.” He shares his thoughts on where AI is heading and some of the ways it might help transform the music industry. “On the business side,” he tells us, “there’s a lot of evidence that these fans want to engage with music in cool and interesting ways, and these AI tech tools allow them to do that, and it’s a revenue-generating source.”

Episode Summary

• Drew’s early experiences with music and how he got his start as a music strategist.
• What it means to be an artist in the age of social media and AI-driven content.

Be sure to tune in for next week’s episode as Drew and I discuss his pivotal role in the International Sound Awards, which AI trends are leading the way in the music business, and how machine learning and generative music are finding uses in everything from video games to medical apps.

Connect with the Audio Branding Podcast:

Book your project with Voice Overs and Vocals by visiting https://voiceoversandvocals.com

Connect with me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jodikrangle/

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Editing/Production by Humberto Franco - https://humbertofranco.com/

“If you’re watching any video on how to get started on content for your business, for public speaking, anything like that, the microphone is always the number one thing, they say. And that should be a cue. It’s not the phone and it’s not a video camera. They say use your phone to get started, but buy a better mic and there’s a reason that this matters so much to people.” – Nikolaj Kloch

This episode is the second half of my conversation with founder of Thrivr Productions Nikolaj Kloch as we discuss what he’s learned firsthand about sound since becoming a videographer, how AI is reshaping the way we use studio sound effects, and his number one on-site audio rule.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - The Power of Audio Branding

The second half of our conversation picks up as Nikolaj tells us about some of the lessons he’s had to learn by experience while working with sound, such as the hidden biases that have shaped recording equipment for decades. “Audio hardware and software have been set up for a man’s voice, and I didn’t realize this over the years,” he notes. “I had no idea about that, and there’s a lot of intricacies like that which are just out in the industry that have been left over for a hundred years now, and you don’t think how that ties back to history until you dive into it.” He tells us how he incorporates AI into his workflow and where he sees it taking the future of audio/video editing. “I think that’s going to make incredible videography work,” he explains. “I think it’s going to add another layer that you still need people behind it, I think we always will, but… it’s going to be a great tool for us to have.”

(0:14:05) - The Impact of Quality Audio

As our conversation comes to a close, Nikolaj shares his strategy for demonstrating the value of sound to skeptical clients. “Just showing them the difference between well-planned audio and something that is just basic, sounds bad, filmed with an iPhone that they’re holding to their mouth and things like that,” he says. “If you show them the side-by-side, I think that’s the easiest way to show them that the transformation is there.” He talks about his latest projects and how listeners can get in touch, and tells us what opened his eyes to the power of sound. “If you could sit down and watch a single video that shows the before and after,” he says, “it changed my view on audio entirely, and it’s something that I always have... when I show these budgets to public speakers, conferences or businesses.”

Episode Summary

• The importance of choosing – and properly setting up – the right audio equipment,
• How sound empowers everything from shaping a narrative to capturing brand synergy.

Connect with the Audio Branding Podcast:

Book your project with Voice Overs and Vocals by visiting https://voiceoversandvocals.com

Connect with me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jodikrangle/

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Connect with me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodikrangle/

Leave the Audio Branding Podcast a review at https://lovethepodcast.com/audiobranding (Thank you!)

Share your passion effectively with these Tips for Sounding Your Best as a Podcast Guest!

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/tips-for-sounding-your-best-as-a-podcast-guest/

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Editing/Production by Humberto Franco - https://humbertofranco.com/

“If you don’t make the video with audio in mind first, that’s the difference between, you know, a 14% click-through rate versus, you know, a 2% click-through rate. And a lot of people don’t tie those two together, that it matters. It’s something that people should be focusing on with a lot of time and energy.” – Nikolaj Kloch

This week’s guest is a videographer, content creator, and former aerospace engineer who helps speakers, entrepreneurs, and brands elevate their presence using impactful video that actually delivers. With a background in both engineering and creative production, he brings a rare mix of precision and artistry to his work, and he’s worked with speakers from TEDx stages to Fortune 500 boardrooms, helping them stand out, connect with audiences, and grow their influence.

His name is Nikolaj Kloch, and he’s passionate about the power of sound and its impact on visuals. Stay tuned as he shares his insights on why audio isn’t just important – it’s essential.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - The Power of Audio in Marketing

As we start off our discussion, Nikolaj recalls one of his first memories of sound, a Lego commercial his brother starred in when they were children. “They actually had to bring in a mic and he just hit the blocks over and over to get the sound crumbling,” he recalls. “And you know, you don’t put those together as a kid until you get older, but I can always hear those blocks crumbling.” He shares how his background as an aerospace engineer took a surprising turn towards audio production, and the common threads between the two. “A lot of people think they don’t translate as much,” he explains, “but it’s one of those things where, you know, audio is a great example of the nitty gritty. There are specific engineers that dive into this every single day, and spend nothing else for their time.”

(0:09:12) - Mastering Precision Audio Recording

We talk about precision audio, just what that phrase really means, and the extensive background that getting the most out of audio can require. “It’s kind of like Picasso saying he won’t sell his little picture on his napkin because he’s taken so much time learning this,” Nikolaj says. “And I feel like that directly ties into this, because it’s really precision. You know they have to line up perfectly.” As the first half of our talk wraps up, Nikolaj shares how he aims to create the ideal environment for an on-site recording and how he helps clients work around some less-than-ideal ones. “I’m going to be reusing this over and over,” he says. “So I’m always like, please, let me at least talk to them and see what their setup is, let’s dive into it a bit. They usually get a little annoyed, but it makes a big difference.”

Episode Summary

• How videographer Nikolaj Kloch transitioned from aerospace engineering to sound design.
• Nikolaj’s work with precision audio, from live recordings to film collaborations.

Be sure to tune in for next week’s episode as Nikolaj shares the lessons he learned from working with Britain’s first female Royal helicopter pilot, where he sees AI taking us when it comes to audio and video production, and the most important message he has to offer about the power of sound.

Connect with the Audio Branding Podcast:

Book your project with Voice Overs and Vocals by visiting https://voiceoversandvocals.com

Connect with me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jodikrangle/

Watch the Audio Branding Podcast on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/JodiKrangleVO

Connect with me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodikrangle/

Leave the Audio Branding Podcast a review at https://lovethepodcast.com/audiobranding (Thank you!)

Share your passion effectively with these Tips for Sounding Your Best as a Podcast Guest!

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/tips-for-sounding-your-best-as-a-podcast-guest/

Get my Top Five Tips for Implementing an Intentional Audio Strategy

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/audio-branding-strategy/

Editing/Production by Humberto Franco - https://humbertofranco.com/

“[What] a lot of sonic branding agencies aren’t aware of is that sonic branding can also be used as a tool to address a concern that the client might have. So, for example, a new competitor has come in and now they feel dated. Okay, let’s write a sonic branding that’s based around being modern. Okay, they’ve had a big knock on trust, like I mentioned before, with a data breach. This is a great opportunity to write a sonic branding that builds customer trust. So, it can be used as another mode along with your visuals, along with your tone of voice. Your branding tone of voice is in, like, the words that are spoken, not the like the language, right? It’s a tool to convey your brand.” – Dr. Thomas Dickson

This episode is the second half of my conversation with musicologist and sonic branding strategist Dr. Thomas Dickson as he shares his thoughts on maintaining a long-term branding, the growing use of AI for everything from monitoring to mock-ups, and the versatility of an effective sonic logo.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:01) - Impact of Sonic Branding Variations

My conversation with Dr. Dickson picks up as we talk about the challenge of maintaining a consistent audio brand through changing management and brand strategies. “They might not even have been strategically sonic branding,” he notes. “It could have just been some brand music that they turned into a mnemonic or brand music they’ve just been using for years, and then a brand manager will come in and just throw out everything.” He points out McDonald’s as a prime example of an audio brand that’s only gotten stronger over the past twenty-five years, and how consistency has been its key to success. “It’s a really good case study for sonic branding agencies to look at,” he says, “how you can take a mnemonic [and] use it in, there’s videos on YouTube where it’s, like, using like thirty different contexts, and it’s just changed instrumentation slightly, changed the speed, [and] added swing .”

(0:07:38) - Sonic Branding Evolution and Impact

Dr. Dickson tells us about his worth with agencies that are increasingly turning to AI for solutions, especially when it comes to catching online plagiarism. “They are using AI to identify melodies that are shared and then taking them to court once the melody’s been used sufficiently,” he cautions. “Day one, a song comes out, they don’t take them to court. They wait till the song is a massive hit and it’s got enough revenue, and then they take them to court.” We discuss AI’s growing presence in everything from audio mastering and editing to generating new music, and he points out some of the roles he sees it filling over time. “I’m imagining in the future there will be the option to take a track,” he explains, “and then just [have AI] re-tailor it to that context and stretch it out so that, for the conference that goes for two hours, there’s appropriate backing music based on your sonic branding.”

(0:16:24) - Future of Sonic Branding Tools

As our conversation wraps up, Dr. Dickson emphasizes the cost-benefit ratio of sonic branding compared to other forms of marketing, and its potential for building brand awareness. “I think the thing I would push is the value for money argument,” he says, “that it is very affordable for an asset they’re going to use for a very long time.” We talk about the increasingly fierce competition among brands and agencies looking to grow their online presence, and the dangers of being left behind in an increasingly digital world. “The big thing as well is all of this is in the context of digital media,” he tells us. “So we are seeing more clients get work from TikTok, Facebook in particular, and Instagram in particular, and YouTube. If you’re not using multimedia on a multimedia platform, you’re falling behind.”

Episode Summary

• Sonic branding in advertising and its evolution from traditional jingles to social media.
• The growing role of AI in audio branding, its limitations, and how it might evolve.
• How AI enhances branding and enables a more flexible, enduring marketing strategy.

Connect with the Audio Branding Podcast:

Book your project with Voice Overs and Vocals by visiting https://voiceoversandvocals.com

Connect with me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jodikrangle/

Watch the Audio Branding Podcast on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/JodiKrangleVO

Connect with me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodikrangle/

Leave the Audio Branding Podcast a review at https://lovethepodcast.com/audiobranding (Thank you!)

Share your passion effectively with these Tips for Sounding Your Best as a Podcast Guest!

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/tips-for-sounding-your-best-as-a-podcast-guest/

Get my Top Five Tips for Implementing an Intentional Audio Strategy

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/audio-branding-strategy/

Editing/Production by Humberto Franco - https://humbertofranco.com/

“If you imagine a company has a ten million dollar marketing budget, right? And then you imagine they have a sonic logo on every single TikTok ad, Facebook ad, YouTube ad, all these new media where the majority of the traffic’s coming from now. If they can increase conversion rates marginally, they can have a huge difference to their bottom line. And it’s one of those things where, because sonic branding, once it’s done, once, and, well, yes, there might be a brand refresh where it’s changed in ten years, um, or it’s updated, or maybe it’s changed slightly to work with a different culture, right? There might be like a version which sounds slightly more Canadian, right? Or more Christmasy, or things like that. But the point being is this is an asset that they develop once, and then it can be used on these campaigns that can have huge advertising budgets, which makes it very cheap when you compare it to the actual campaign marketing spend.” – Dr. Thomas Dickson

My guest on this episode is a musicologist who specializes in how we perceive sound and how it shapes brand communication. With a PhD in Music Psychology, he helps brands create emotionally resonant and research-backed sonic identities. His work reduces subjectivity, improves creative decisions, and even addresses legal risks like plagiarism in audio branding.

His name is Dr. Thomas Dickson, and he’s advised national retailers, tech firms, and service brands throughout his career. And, as if the subject of musicology isn’t fascinating enough, we’ll also be discussing how businesses can make sure their sound stays original and protected.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - The Power of Sound in Advertising

Our discussion begins with a look back at Dr. Dickson’s early memories of sound, and he came prepared with a more recent, but still memorable, experience that demonstrated the power of sound. “By the grand finale,” he recalls as he describes an outdoor concert featuring the Melbourne Symphonic Orchestra, “it’s a bucketing down, raining and everyone’s still there. So we’ve got this huge event, it’s bucketing down, raining, [and] no one’s leaving because they want to hear the finale.” He tells us more about musicology, what it means, and how it can help build a stronger brand. “Musicology is like the academic and rigorous study of music,” he explains. “It comes down to a broad range of different styles, so this could be like music history, it could be music psychology, which is what I looked at, the psychology of music or sound, [or] it could be ethnomusicology.”

(0:09:05) - Musicology and Plagiarism in Sonic Branding

Dr. Dickson tells us about the different dimensions of musicology and how sound influences us, such as musical expectancy and episodic memory, and how much our impression of sound comes from the media we consume. “We have cultural norms associated with electronic music,” he explains, “digital sounds, hard hitting bass, all that kind of stuff that we associate with that through repeated exposure with these sounds, with those kinds of branding pillars.” He shares an example of a client who sought his help with finding the right branding voice, and he shares some of the unexpected legal risks that can arise when an audio brand campaign’s trying to sound familiar but not too familiar. “The last thing you want to do,” he tells us, “is compose something that doesn’t really suit the brief that you thought did, but you also don’t want to end up with something that’s derivative of another work.”

(0:19:02) - Implementing Sound Design in Sonic Branding

As we reach the first half of our conversation, Dr. Dickson talks about the strengths and limitations of a sonic brand, and how music can fill in the emotional gaps to build a stronger brand. “That’s not going to have much emotion conveyed in it,” he says of an audio logo, “whereas if you are to pitch, tune that, so make it turn into a melody... there’s opportunity to get both the distinctive asset and also an opportunity to convey, you know, music and emotion.” He shows an effective sonic brand can be one of the most cost-effective approaches to marketing, and we talk about the perils of trying to use stock music rather than a distinctive audio brand. “I have witnessed the phenomenon of different advertising using the same song,” Dr. Dickson tells us. “So anything from a car company to a gardening company, to, like, a food item and then a shoe, you know, and they’re all using that same sound.”

Episode Summary

• Dr. Dickson shares his passion for music and his academic journey in musicology.
• How musicology and audio branding intersect to build an emotional brand connection.
• The power of an effective sonic branding campaign vs traditional advertising.

Be sure to tune in for next week’s episode as Dr. Dickson and I discuss the balancing act of audio branding and changing management, how the growing competition between sonic brands might lead to legal challenges, and the role AI has already begun to play in uncovering musical plagiarism.

Connect with the Audio Branding Podcast:

Book your project with Voice Overs and Vocals by visiting https://voiceoversandvocals.com

Connect with me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jodikrangle/

Watch the Audio Branding Podcast on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/JodiKrangleVO

Connect with me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodikrangle/

Leave the Audio Branding Podcast a review at https://lovethepodcast.com/audiobranding (Thank you!)

Share your passion effectively with these Tips for Sounding Your Best as a Podcast Guest!

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/tips-for-sounding-your-best-as-a-podcast-guest/

Get my Top Five Tips for Implementing an Intentional Audio Strategy

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/audio-branding-strategy/

Editing/Production by Humberto Franco - https://humbertofranco.com/

“And they had people that had either the escalator going up on the right-hand side or you could take the stairs, and each stair played a different key on the piano. More people took the stairs than they did the escalators because it was more fun. So, they did something they hadn't done before that was better for them. So, it all wraps up beautifully, and was such a fun campaign. And again, it didn't have to cost a lot of money. They didn't do many of those piano stairs. And it's that old thing, or the new thing that we try and do now, [which] is ‘experienced by few, seen by many.’ And you see it all the time, you know, you do one small little activation that really doesn't have to cost a lot of money, but you film it beautifully, put a good track to it, you make sure it gets shared correctly. And all of a sudden, you've got a hit.” – Darren Borrino

This episode is the second half of my conversation with executive creative director of Inkfish NYC Darren Borrino as we talk about building the foundation of an effective sonic brand, how digital tools and the internet age have redefined the strategies, development, and time frame of an ad campaign, and the growing value of authenticity in a world where AI content is becoming the norm.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - Global Advertising Culture Differences and Campaigns

The second half of our conversation begins as Darren and I talk about his work all around the world, from his home in South Africa to Prague, Australia, and eventually the U.S. “The biggest culture shock I got was actually coming to New York,” he says. “Although I'm South African, my parents are British, so I was brought up on British comedy like quite sarcastic, quite dry, quite undertone.” We discuss the one ad campaign he wishes he’d written, and an inventively musical approach Denmark took to encouraging drivers to slow down: a melody based on the driver’s speed. “If you went too fast, it became annoying,” he explains. “We've all had kids in the car before. Everybody wants to slow down and just enjoy it, and there's no reason to race. So you may as well just enjoy the track.

(0:05:20) - Innovative Sound Marketing Campaigns

We talk about what’s changed in the advertising world in recent years, and how even a seemingly successful marketing strategy can have unintended consequences for a brand. “That's going to reposition the brand in the market,” he tells us. “But if you don't have a full perspective of where everything is, you could accidentally position that brand right next to a competitor that will easily outspend them.” Darren talks about the impact of such AI tools as Midjourney in his agency, its uses and limitations, and the unlikely sounds of inspiration all around us “I can guarantee you nine times out of ten,” he says, “it's when you're cycling home, or when you're washing your dog at home, or you're out with a friend having coffee. You'll see something happen, you'll go, ‘wait a minute. That's smart. The way that woman spoke to her dog is exactly what we need to be doing for this brand.’”

(0:16:27) - The Future of Creative Marketing

Our discussion concludes as Darren reflects on the fast pace of content development in the 21st century, and how it’s led to a very different tone than ad campaigns in the past. “I think the problem with that is that you get a lot of surface-level thinking,” he notes. “You can only go so deep with the time that you have, and I think that's why you see commercials generally these days are um, it's either got a pun in the headline or… you throw a celebrity in there, it's got a big track, or it's got a new visual effect, or something like that. It's not really deep thinking.” He shares some of his upcoming projects, including a new AI that adopts its persona to forge a personal connection with each user. “It obviously understands everything about the brand and its products,” he says. “But it brings in a third dimension. It helps you understand yourself a little more as a consumer, so it's got emotional intelligence built into it.

Episode Summary

• Darren’s cosmopolitan approach to tailoring strategies for different regional markets.
• How sound shapes consumer behavior, from climate awareness to safer driving.
• Darren’s advice to 21st-century creatives, and his latest, AI-driven campaign work.

Connect with the Audio Branding Podcast:

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Connect with me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jodikrangle/

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Leave the Audio Branding Podcast a review at https://lovethepodcast.com/audiobranding (Thank you!)

Share your passion effectively with these Tips for Sounding Your Best as a Podcast Guest!

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Editing/Production by Humberto Franco - https://humbertofranco.com/

“If you're going to be doing a commercial, for example, for BMW, where people are spending a lot of money on a Seven Series and it's a luxury car, but then you hear the TV ad or the radio ad or wherever you're listening, and that sound isn't recorded at the highest quality. Like, your logical mind might not pick it up, but if it sounds a little tinny or it's too much of an echo, you pick that up, and that really does build into the overall feeling of the brand in terms of quality. There was an interesting example with Nissan. They launched one of the first electric vehicles a long time ago, and when they put it out into the market, they found that people felt that maybe it was a little flimsy, it didn't feel quite right, like, well made. So obviously they went in to fix their upholstery, and they started making things a little more high quality, and consumers are still saying, ‘I don't know what it is, there's something about this, it just doesn't feel like a quality vehicle.’ And what they did was they changed the audio. Through the speakers in the car, when you start it up, it will make a fake sound of the car starting up. And, all of a sudden, people are like, ‘ah, now it feels like a car.’” – Darren Borrino

This week’s guest is an art director at heart and an ECD-level creative with over twenty years experience, working all across the globe. He’s led teams at some of the world’s top agencies, such as TBWA, DDB, and Saatchi & Saatchi, and has won multiple awards for his work. He launched Inkfish, a boutique agency in New York that helps smaller challenger brands take on the big guys with sharper strategy, more disruptive creative, and budgets that go into the work, not overheads. He’s endlessly curious about what persuades the human mind, loves ideas that actually land, and believes that the best work comes from collaboration and clarity, as well as a healthy sense of humor.

His name is Darren Borrino, and in this episode, we’ll be discussing how companies can shake things up using sound, the difference between clever and persuasive, and how to stay relevant in a changing ad world – especially in the age of AI. Stay tuned for a Masterclass in being different!

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - The Power of Sound in Advertising

We start off our discussion with Darren’s childhood impressions of sound, which include the Universal audio logo when he and his dad used to watch movies. “You'd made it home, you'd finished everything you wanted to do,” he says, “and you could sort of relax with a little bit of popcorn and maybe watch a movie and just take it easy. So that was probably the first time.” Our discussion turns to audio branding in the age of social media, and just how quickly things move today – especially audience attention. “People switch off very quickly,” Darren explains. “So you need to make sure you have a brand that has the right qualities, and then you match that with the right voice to bring that to life.”

(0:12:18) - Building Brand Trust Through Audio Consistency

Darren and I talk about sound’s power to quickly grab and hold the listener’s attention, and how that can be a double-edged sword when it comes to branding. “The problem with that,” he explains, “is if you're paying attention to the voice or the quality of the voice, or the sound or the sound effects, or the mix or whatever it is, then you're not paying attention to what I'm trying to tell you.” He explains the difference between clever and persuasive approaches, and warns against ad campaigns that can become too clever for their own good. “It's very important to keep a consistent brand,” he adds, “a consistent tone of voice, keep it really simple and make it reliable, and that's how you build trust.”

(0:22:26) - The Impact of Sound in Advertising

As we wrap up the first half of our conversation, Darren talks about the risks of over-planning and overproducing an ad campaign, and he shares some examples of effective campaigns that came together in more organic ways. “The best thing you can do,” he explains, “is [to] literally take that idea and go sit with a voiceover artist, or a weird creative or a musician, and just say ‘Here's the idea. Let's just throw some stuff around, let's just record whatever we're doing, let's have fun with it.’” He recalls his work with VistaPrint’s memorable “Unregiftable” campaign, and a compelling example from the Nissan Leaf of how sound shapes consumer expectations. “What they did,” he recalls, “was they changed the audio through the speakers in the car. When you start it up, it would make a fake sound of the car starting up. And all of a sudden people like, ‘Ah, now it feels like a car.’”

Episode Summary

• Sound's emotional power in branding and how it deepens an audience’s connection.
• How Darren’s work with markets around the world have shaped his perspective.
• The power of sound in marketing campaigns and shaping the consumer’s experience.

Be sure to tune in for next week’s episode as Darren talks about his advertising work around the world, from Prague to Sydney, the impact that AI and content creation tools like Midjourney have made on the advertising industry, and his advice to young creatives starting out in the digital age.

Connect with the Audio Branding Podcast:

Book your project with Voice Overs and Vocals by visiting https://voiceoversandvocals.com

Connect with me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jodikrangle/

Watch the Audio Branding Podcast on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/JodiKrangleVO

Connect with me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodikrangle/

Leave the Audio Branding Podcast a review at https://lovethepodcast.com/audiobranding (Thank you!)

Share your passion effectively with these Tips for Sounding Your Best as a Podcast Guest!

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/tips-for-sounding-your-best-as-a-podcast-guest/

Get my Top Five Tips for Implementing an Intentional Audio Strategy

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/audio-branding-strategy/

Editing/Production by Humberto Franco - https://humbertofranco.com/

“The brief was ‘we want to sell some more train tickets to Germany, where you can go to Berlin for a techno party, you can go to Hamburg for the opera, have a famous opera in Hamburg, or you can go to Munich for the beer festival.’ And we made this audio journey with sound, and you definitely can hear, ah, now we’re in Berlin, it’s the opera, and now we go to Munich. So yeah, we can play with that. And the client just also loved the idea. It takes two to tango, as you say, the client also needs to value and understand if you want the effect of this. You need to work with this in an ambitious and professional way.” – Karsten Kjems

This episode is the second half of my conversation with audio branding specialist and founder and CEO of Sonic Minds Karsten Kjems, as we talk about the surprising value of silence in sound design, why familiarity doesn’t always breed contempt when it comes to sonic logos, and what it means to be a musician in a world where both instruments and vocals can come from a laptop.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - The Power of Sound Design

As the second half of our conversation starts, Karsten points out how effective sound design isn’t always intuitive, and that less is sometimes more. “I’ve played some gigs, sometimes for a reception,” he says, “and people were just talking and talking, and they didn’t listen to the music at all. But then suddenly if we start to play really soft, then people go, ‘oh, I think the band is playing.’” He adds that sonic interfaces today are, in some ways, reminiscent of the early days of web design. “In the old days, they had flashes and everything moving,” he recalls. “You know, now we just go back to ‘give me a simple burger menu,’ ‘click contact,’ or whatever. User usability is also very important.”

(0:06:41) - The Evolution of Sound Design

Our discussion turns to audio marketing, and Karsten points out how much of effective sonic branding depends on the demographics. “There has actually been a study for that, that shows that we create our musical preference, I think, when it’s between we are 17 and 21,” he says. “We’re about to get the first boyfriend or girlfriend, moving away from home, these really high peak moments in our lives.” We talk about AI in sound, and the direction he sees it taking in the industry. “It’s just like when the sampler came out,” he recalls. “’What should drummers do?’ And now the drummer plays on top of samplers, so every drummer has a sampler or a drum machine next to him, so he uses it as a tool.”

(0:20:22) - Quality Sound Design

As our conversation comes to a close, we talk more about the role of shifting demographics in sound design and how they impact not just relatability but the user’s experience. “If you’re having hearing loss or having, you know, difficult hearing,” Karsten notes, “then you don’t want products that really annoy you. You want to be able to understand them.” He shares some of his thoughts on the future of audio UX, and how his country’s leading the way in sonic branding. “Denmark is actually with sound what Swiss is with watches,” he adds. “For some reason, it’s a hot spot within audio engineering and sound. So I think we should keep that position as one of our trademarks in Denmark.”

Episode Summary

• Effectively utilizing silence in sound design and the evolving role of spatial sound.
• The challenge of re-imagining traditional audio approaches in the digital era.
• AI’s role in sound and how technology has redefined what it means to be a musician.

Connect with the Audio Branding Podcast:

Book your project with Voice Overs and Vocals by visiting https://voiceoversandvocals.com

Connect with me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jodikrangle/

Watch the Audio Branding Podcast on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/JodiKrangleVO

Connect with me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodikrangle/

Leave the Audio Branding Podcast a review at https://lovethepodcast.com/audiobranding (Thank you!)

Share your passion effectively with these Tips for Sounding Your Best as a Podcast Guest!

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/tips-for-sounding-your-best-as-a-podcast-guest/

Get my Top Five Tips for Implementing an Intentional Audio Strategy

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/audio-branding-strategy/

Editing/Production by Humberto Franco - https://humbertofranco.com/

“If you can see that your product is selling better with better sounds, and it gets better reviews Actually, I saw a car review that scored the car better just because the sounds were better. He didn’t talk about how fast it could go, how fast it could brake or how many airbags, he talked about the user experience. A car today is a driving iPad on wheels. So, all these sounds here, I got so stressed from these beeps and boops, suddenly it was too close to the edge, or too close to that... sometimes there wasn’t even a thing, and it just starts to, what was that? Was a fly running through the camera? What was it? So, I think it’s so important that we also choose brands and products with our ears as well with our eyes, and also with our wallets.” – Karsten Kjems

This episode’s guest was raised in a musical home with a studio in the basement. He began drumming professionally at 23, and his passion for sound design and early use of digital audio tools like ProTracker on the Amiga shaped his approach to music and technology. While working at a branding agency, he noticed companies struggling to define their sonic identity, leading him to launch one of the first strategic audio branding agencies, Sonic Minds, in 2004. Today, he’s a recognized expert in the field, frequently speaking and teaching about sound design.

His name is Karsten Kjems, and you’ll want to hear more about his perspective on brand sounds, why he believes audio branding to be so important, and what sets good and bad sound apart. If you’re still on the fence about audio branding for your own company, or if you’re struggling to explain why it’s important to your clients, you should definitely check out this conversation.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - The Power of Sound in Branding

As we start things off, Karsten shares his early memories of sound, and how growing up with ADHD in a musical family shaped his formative years. “I was brought up in a family where my father was a drummer,” Karsten recalls, “so I’ve always been around musicians and music and the first time I really discovered that I had this almost perfect pitch was when I went to music school.” He explains how a surprising discovery at a concert led to his career in marketing and audio branding, and the seismic shift that the streaming era – and particularly the rise of YouTube – represented for the industry. “Suddenly brands and companies need to communicate in these spheres,” he tells us. “How did they do that? How did they choose music? How should they buy music? So it’s a whole new game, from only being on TV and radio to being on all the time, to keep… producing content all the time.”

(0:12:18) - Designing Meaningful Audio Branding Experiences

Our conversation turns to UX and branding through sound design, and Karsten points out how ubiquitous sound interfaces have become these days. “A headset, a modern headset, for whatever company, it can have up to around 15 different sounds,” he notes. “You know, power on, power off, battery low, volume max, next song, anti-noise cancellation, Bluetooth connection.” He recalls an experience with an electronic tea kettle with an audio design more suited for fire alarms, and he talks about the difference in brand recognition and quality that audio branding can represent. “If I wear a pair of headsets every day which I turn on,” he says, “or drive a car that I use daily, or use my coffee machine or whatever, these interaction sounds, these user interaction sounds, are becoming the most heard sounds from the brand. And if they sound cheap, it’s probably a cheap brand.”

(0:22:26) - The Importance of Sound in UX

We come back to the topic of good and bad sound design, and how good UX design operates on an information spectrum. “Is it important or is it just ‘need a new battery’ sound? The scale of importance, is it an about-to-die sound or is it ‘please look to me in the next couple of days because you might want to change the battery’ sound?” We talk about how hospitals and medical device sound designs reflect some of the problems and solutions to creating an effective audio interface, and how important it is for companies whose products, whether they realize it or not, are driven by sound. “I’m in this UX sound bubble or marketing bubble with sound,” Karsten adds. “But I do feel that it is getting more attention... you can see that your product is selling better with better sounds, and it gets better reviews.”

Episode Summary

• Karsten’s journey from professional musician to audio-branding pioneer.
• The relationship between sound and brand image, and what makes a brand “innovative.”
• Striking the right balance between useful and intrusive audio UX design.

Be sure to tune in for next week’s episode as Karsten and I discuss his award-winning work on a campaign featuring the sounds of Berlin, what audio UX can learn from the old days of Lycos and Geocities sites, and why louder isn’t better when it comes to ear-catching sound design.

Connect with the Audio Branding Podcast:

Book your project with Voice Overs and Vocals by visiting https://voiceoversandvocals.com

Connect with me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jodikrangle/

Watch the Audio Branding Podcast on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/JodiKrangleVO

Connect with me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodikrangle/

Leave the Audio Branding Podcast a review at https://lovethepodcast.com/audiobranding (Thank you!)

Share your passion effectively with these Tips for Sounding Your Best as a Podcast Guest!

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/tips-for-sounding-your-best-as-a-podcast-guest/

Get my Top Five Tips for Implementing an Intentional Audio Strategy

https://voiceoversandvocals.com/audio-branding-strategy/

Editing/Production by Humberto Franco - https://humbertofranco.com/