Baby Got Backstory

Brooklyn-based Douglas Davis enjoys being one of the variety of voices needed in front of and behind the concept. His approach to creativity combines right-brained creative problem solving with left-brained strategic thinking. Douglas’ integrated point of view has enabled his natural evolution from designer to strategist, author, and professor.

His expertise spans advertising, design, and business education and has found an international audience through presenting his tools on combining the three to produce more effective creative business solutions. Douglas enjoys interacting with creative people and regularly presents at industry conferences including HOW Design Live, RGD Design Thinkers, The One Club Educators Summit, Midwest Digital Marketing Conference, Revolve, and The Art & Branding Conference.

In 2016, Douglas wrote his first book Creative Strategy and the Business of Design, a title currently being translated into Chinese by Beijing Normal University. He is a former co-chair of AIGA’s National Diversity and Inclusion Taskforce and regularly contributes to the business of design discourse in Printmag.com, Applied Arts, and The European Business Review.

In 2011 Douglas founded The Davis Group LLC and continues to offer strategic solutions to client branding, digital, and design problems. In addition to client work, Douglas leverages his professional experience to inspire high school, undergraduate, and graduate students. As the longest-serving member on the 4As High School Advisory Board, his experience was translated into the four-year curriculum at New York City’s High School for Innovation in Advertising and Media. Following the launch, Douglas contributed as an education consultant for the launch of the Manhattan Early College School for Advertising (MECA).

Currently, he is Chair of the Emmy-Award winning B.F.A. in Communication Design program at New York City College of Technology in Brooklyn and serves on the advisory boards of the University of Oregon’s Masters in Advertising and Brand Responsibility and City College’s Masters in Branding and Integrated Communications. Douglas holds a B.A. in Graphic Design from Hampton University, an  M.S. in Communications Design from Pratt Institute and an M.S. in Integrated Marketing from New York University.

• The importance of diversifying the minds and perspectives to address the world’s issues and industry changes.

Website: douglasdavis.com

Case Study: Imported From Brooklyn

Youtube: Imported From Brooklyn Film

Win Without Pitching Article: Red, White, Black and Blue: The Land of Mixed Signals

COMD: douglasdavis.com/comd

LinkedIn: Douglas Davis

[15:49] I like to say our job is to take the rational language of business and turn it into the emotional language of design…I also like to say that creative people really are the spoonful of sugar that make business and marketing objectives palatable to the public.

[42:52] We have to keep changing, we have to keep growing, we have to keep learning, to even keep up, to even remain relevant. Why would you not want as many different minds or perspectives on a problem that you can grab?

[48:12] I’m going to turn my weaknesses into strengths. And that is the evolution. It’s a mindset. Leading is a verb and a posture.

[53:55] We can’t measure everybody by the same yardstick…creative people like me and you can grow up comparing themselves to other people based on those measures and conclude that something’s wrong with them, when they’re the ones with the superpowers.

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Douglas Davis 0:00

Marc Gutman 0:41

Today’s guest is Douglas Davis. I really don’t know where to start with Douglas. I first learned of Douglas when I read his book, creative strategy and the business of design. And it’s one of those books that literally changed my perspective and worldview on strategy and business. So I had to meet the person who wrote such an influential piece of work. And Boy, was I in for a surprise. Douglas Davis takes great pride in being Brooklyn based and in his words, enjoys being one of the variety of voices needed in front of and behind the concept. His approach to creativity combines right brained, creative problem solving, with left brained, strategic thinking. Douglass’s integrated point of view has enabled his natural evolution from designer to strategist, author, and professor, and his expertise spans advertising, design and business education, and is found in international audience through presenting his tools and combining the three to produce more effective creative business solutions.

Douglas enjoys interacting with creative people and regularly presents IT industry conferences, including how design live RGD design thinkers, the one club educators summit, Midwest digital marketing conference revolve and the art and branding conference. In 2016, Douglas wrote his first book, creative strategy in the business of design, a title currently being translated into Chinese by Beijing Normal University. He is a former co chair of AI je A’s national diversity and inclusion Task Force and regularly contributes to the business of design discourse in print mag comm Applied Arts in the European Business Review, Douglas founded The Davis Group, and he continues to offer strategic solutions to client branding, digital and design problems.

In addition to client work, Douglas leverages his professional experience to inspire High School, undergraduate and graduate students as the longest serving member on the four A’s High School advisory board. His experience was translated into the four year curriculum at New York City’s High School for innovation in advertising and media.

Following the launch, Douglas contributed as an education consultant for the launch of the Manhattan Early College School for advertising. Currently, he is the chair of the Emmy Award winning BFA and communication program at New York City College of Technology in Brooklyn, and serves on the advisory boards of the University of Oregon’s masters in advertising. And brand responsibility, and City College’s master and branding and integrated communications. Douglas holds a BA in graphic design from Hampton University, an MS and Communication Design from Pratt Institute, and an MS in integrated marketing from New York University. Wow, that was a big, big bio, we really don’t touch any of it, except for the book in this episode. And that’s why I wanted to share that with you. Now. I’m going to stop talking and turn it over to Douglas because well, this is his story.

I am here with Douglas Davis. And I couldn’t be more excited. Douglas.

Douglas Davis 5:47

Marc Gutman 5:49

Here’s my copy Douglas. It is less it has dog years. It’s got notes, it’s got. It’s got post it notes, I mean, this thank you for your support. Yeah, this is like a resource for me, and I can’t wait to talk to you about it. It’s definitely one of my top, you know, 10 books on branding. Absolutely. But thank you for having me. Yeah. And in addition to being the strategist, author and professor, what are you doing right now? I mean, I see some Emmys in the background. I’m super impressed. When they tell us once you tell us a little bit about what else you’re doing cuz you wear a lot of hats.

Douglas Davis 6:43

Marc Gutman 7:55

Douglas Davis 8:02

Marc Gutman 9:19

Douglas Davis 9:39

Marc Gutman 10:35

Douglas Davis 10:43

But in terms of what Creative Strategy and the Business of Design is, it’s what I was able to write down as, just as I fumble through my career, I realized that I had gone as far as I could go with my aesthetic training, and again, going to undergraduate going to graduate school, bouncing around from agency to agency design, firm, publishing digital. I also went to NYU and got another Master’s. But I realized that design school doesn’t teach you business, it teaches you to focus on what are the tactical parts of what should be strategic decisions, largest strategic decisions, without even explain to you what those decisions are, then.

So the challenge there is that when you are working somewhere, and you get promoted for doing your job really well for answering those client briefs in ways that are not only creative, but effective. I think there’s some assumptions sometimes that you must know strategy, because you’re able to knock it out of the park on, you know, all these different points. And so eventually, what I started to notice is that clients were not just coming to me for creative content, they were coming to me for strategic context. And I was uncomfortable with that, because I didn’t know strategy. And so I realized that over time, I started losing battles, even though I could write the proposal, build the team, you know, pitch the business, do whatever I needed to do. And I was able to get positions of responsibility relatively quickly as a result of that. But eventually, I started losing battles, because I couldn’t justify by the creative decisions within the context of the business and marketing objectives that we should have been trying to hit. And so I lost those battles. Because I fell back on my aesthetic, you know, I was arguing typefaces, well, we should have been talking about marketing objectives or metrics that we needed to hit within the business, you know, objectives. And so one day I stumbled into a strategy session, I realized, Oh, this is that thing that keeps beating me This is that that language that I don’t know how to speak. And so let me learn this. That’s why I went to NYU, to add the strategy to the creative side, so that I could, my rationale was that I could, you know, become a better creative because I could think, how they think to do what we do like to speak their language, in order to justify what was there. And I’ll give you one more piece of that, because this was, you know, you know, you’ve been in the business for a while.

This is back when you could learn ActionScript flash, this is back when you could choose to just double down on the execution part of things. And so even then, I realized, you know, what, I don’t want to sit outside the meeting, and wait for these people who are making decisions inside the conference room to come out and tell me what to do and when to have it and, and whatever. So how about I inject creativity into the beginning of solving a business problem, versus being a better executer? And I’m so glad I did that, obviously, because flashes no more. And I think that that’s, that’s a really important lesson. And a lot of those lessons are what, what I wrote down and Creative Strategy and the Business of Design, in addition to the tools, the frameworks, and the things that allowed me to get to where I needed to go when I added strategy to my creative skill set. So hopefully It’ll be useful to somebody to listeners.

Marc Gutman 15:03

Douglas Davis 15:36

All of those things, I think, are really, really important. And I dress dealing with your emotions, and just how to navigate different rooms. Because if you as you know, if when you’re walking into that room, after pouring your heart and soul into whatever you’re going to show, and you walk into that room full of people who you don’t know, and your emotions, that thing that got you into the room, because of your creativity are now your worst enemy, because you can’t even formulate the words, to articulate what it is that you’ve done. And I think, you know, all these things were things that I had to learn from failing.

And so the other piece, too, you know, design schools don’t teach business is that business schools don’t teach how to get the best out of designers how to inspire creative people. And I realized that because after going there, there was still this gap. And, you know, I had to learn that when you walk into that room as a creative person, they’re not going to learn creativity, you have to learn their language. And you have to then put the recommendation up front, instead of walking into the creative side of things where you’re going to tell the story. And you’re going to talk about the insight and we’re going to arrive at the end here it is, you have to completely flop how you even tell the stories in these rooms.

But all of those things were things that I had to learn through failing through having outcomes completely opposite of what I wanted to happen. So I can absolutely agree with some of those insecurities. And, and some part of what I teach now is really about organizing the chaos, questioning the answers that clients will come to you with, because they think that they know, or they’re still trying to get the same solution that worked six months ago, or in this case, now that we’re in Coronavirus times, you know, a year ago, but the environment shifted, and none of that still none of that’s even applicable anymore, in order to then turn insights in execution. So we have to retrain the way we listen as creative people. And some part of that is exactly what you’re talking about.

Marc Gutman 18:34

Douglas Davis 19:06

And I think for me, I’ve always just walked into the room and been very Matter of fact, and either you hire me or you don’t, but I’m going to tell you what you need because I’m the expert and I’ll make The recommendations, but as the client, you will make the decisions. And so it’s become really easy to to really listen and to know really quickly, whether I’m going to refer you to other sites or other people, because either a, you don’t have the budget or B, you’re not clear, you need a little bit more information, in order to shift away from being price sensitive, or you need a little bit more information to shift away from that thing that you saw that you liked, that you want the exact copy of that you’re not saying. But that you, you’re basically going to critique all the work and through a series of meetings, you know, we’re going to come out with the exact copy of something else.

And so I think, being willing to walk away, being willing to refer other people and being willing to say, you know, if you go to this website, you can be up and running in an hour. Or if you go to this mix of websites, you can have what you need to and under five grand, and then I add the last piece, and so can your competitors. And after that, I think there’s a little bit of a pause, been, you know, we can have a conversation where we back up a little bit, and then we can start talking about the value of the services that they need, whether they hired me or not. But I think it’s important to just take control of the conversation in a way that you are offering things that makes the client think and it may not even be in that current conversation, it may take a couple of weeks, but giving them something to think about. And then sort of being willing to let it go, has been the way that I’ve been able to navigate situations where I’m really not the right person. It’s best for everybody, if you just you know, shut it down.

Marc Gutman 21:54

Douglas Davis 22:37

But this tool helps to organize all the information by going through a series of steps where you qualify what the information is that you’re dealing with, to create and build your creative work or concepts or just coming up with thought starters, you could use it as a brainstorming tool. I’ve actually sat in meetings with clients and literally started to write the notes from the briefing into the framework so that I could take what wasn’t given to me back to the creative team, stick it up on the whiteboard, and we could just literally hit the ground running where the client left off. But that’s really what I would say that that tool and any tool, any framework, you know it we’re not talking about something that’s a recipe, right? We’re not talking about something that is, you know, fill in the blanks, and you’ll voila, you’ll have this any strategy, any any design even, that’s worth its salt is going to be a custom solution. And so the framework, I always like to say is only as good as the information that you put into it, the thinking that goes into it. So yeah, that’s that’s the one tool that if you didn’t go anywhere else,

Marc Gutman 24:49

Douglas Davis 24:56

Now, there are people who report to me, I’m sort of client facing now. And then you move from that person to someone who, at different points might even be a little bit intimidated that the people who are coming in might be a little faster, might have a little edge, because they’re the last people and even though they’re going to get paid the least, you know, you start to wonder whether you can hold your own as things shift so fast.

So the one thing that I would tell people about Creative Strategy and the Business of Design is that it’s built for a person who understands that what we do evolves, it shifts. And we all know that, whether it’s learning flash, or ActionScript, or whether it’s learning about new typefaces, or learning about Slack, or and how to use Basecamp. And all these different things are like a timeline that sort of bring us from the very beginning, and to where we, where we are, and then it keeps going because now we have Tick Tock and we got clubhouse, and you know, everything is going to continue to change. And as creative people, we’ve always understood that we’ve always done that in a way that would allow us to, you know, survive, because we’re continuing to change.

But I think when I think about 1999, when I entered the industry, you know, the.com recession, and all the websites that were there, people didn’t know how to make money on the web, I wish that people would have known that, you know, direct marketing was the father of digital because it’s, you know, accountable, you can track it, right. But nobody knew that. So they’re throwing all this money into this new medium, that my professors at the time I was at Pratt, my professors at the time and not worked in. And so I’m applying my skills, these traditional skills to this medium that no one’s worked in who’s taught me and you realize that, you know, in 99, no one had a web design degree, because it didn’t exist, you couldn’t study it. Everybody who was there participating in that industry was there because they decided to learn something new.

And I think that that’s a really important insight, because I think we’re back there right now. If you think about the ways that the Coronavirus has made everyone have to pivot, we have to figure out ways to do the same thing, the exact same thing and complete different ways. Or we have to figure out ways to take what we’ve already what we have on hand skills or equipment or whatever, and do something completely different. And so I think, when you look at where things were back, then and 99, where you can go to school to learn web design, but there’s this industry, you realize that your skills, your willingness to be agile, to change, to morph, that’s what actually allows you to survive.

And when you add on top of it, the trend, you know, Apple, Microsoft, Google, they’re saying the you know, since actually since 2017, that you don’t have to have a college degree to enter their ranks, we’re back to a point where skills, what you can do, the value that you bring as a person, regardless of what your degree says.

That’s what matters. And so I think that the book is about those transitions. And, and I wrote it obviously, before we were in this point, because the principles are what we’re really talking about here, when you’re really understanding that what we do will always evolve, and it’s going to evolve at the speed of business, it’s going to evolve at the speed of the next thing that marketers are going to create that we’re going to have to figure out ourselves to engage and build the relationships that our clients want us to build with our customers who are going to join that platform, and who are going to adopt it in mass in ways that we’re gonna have to figure out how to show up and you know, entertain them in a way that they’re not shutting us off or blocking us. And I think that that evolution and change that constant change is something that I’m encouraged that as creative people that we’re dealing with this pandemic right now. Because who better?

Who better to deal with something to change the whole world in an instant? If they no snapped his fingers? We literally were in a situation Where how you enter the industry was different. How you work when you’re in the industry is completely different. And we’re literally back where we, as the people with experience, we’re in the exact same position, as I was saying about in 1999, where my world class practice, the two professors had no experience in this thing that I was going to apply my skills to, were literally back to that point where none of us with experience has more experience than any student.

And any, like, we’re back, it’s leveled the playing field, but who better to to navigate that, who better to lead that then creative people who have to do that to save their lives, every single time anyway, you have to reinvent yourself. So that’s the one thing that I would say that the book will help you to do. And you know, I always tell people, it’s very similar to like a Harvard Business Case Study, if you’re, if you’re familiar with that, where your objective is to read it, and then figure out who the decision maker is, and then play that person’s role, you step into their role. And everything that you’re reading for is to find your, your recommendation, the risk and rewards are what you would do in that situation.

So it’s about role playing, and sort of stepping into those shoes. The book gives you the stories of why these things are important that I’m going to talk to you about. The book tells you the stories of how I got here, it gives you my story and the way I do it, but it’s asking you to bring yourself to it. It’s asking you to take the thought process the principles, and then apply it to your own situation, and figure out how to save your own life. That’s what this is about the transitions.

So that’s the one thing that I would tell you, if you’re interested in the book, if you want to keep reinventing yourself, this is this is going to help you do that, because it’s going to teach you the language of how things change. And that one tool that, you know, if I said, you know, all the other ones have to fall away, would be the creative strategy framework, because it helps you to organize that chaos. And it’ll help you to only focus on what’s relevant, and solving the problems and those four columns and three steps in order to question the answers that the client comes to you with, so that you can you know, organize that chaos, question those answers and turn insights into executions. And those executions can be the actual work themselves, it could be the brainstorming session, it could be the brief because sometimes, going back to what I was saying about business school doesn’t teach how to inspire designers, we’ve all had a brief that’s the size of a novel that’s completely worthless, that was given to you by somebody who has a strategist title, and who came from sort of the business side of things, but who has no idea how to talk to a creative person.

And that’s what’s so ironic that the very things that make us professionals to be on the same team to service that client don’t even teach us to talk to each other. So sometimes to have a sound strategy, you got to write to yourself as a creative person, to even have one. And so this framework will help you either get started on the creativity part of things, thought starters, it’ll help you write the briefs. It can help you with strategy itself. But it’s a very, very elastic tool that I’m asking you to bring yourself to.

Marc Gutman 33:39

I just feel like I got a master class in a few minutes. There. are on strategy and you’ve really changed actually my perspective and worldview I’m, I’m kind of caught up in obsessed with relevance and this idea of staying relevant being relevant, am I relevant? How do I stay relevant? I recently had a post where I was music, I have never felt the right age, you know, when I was younger, I always wanted more, and to be in someone else’s seat. Now, as I’m further my career, I’m looking back and be like, oh, there’s all these tick trackers, like, as you’re mentioning, all these things happening, that I don’t know, but, but the way you just describe that, and what I heard was that reinventing yourself and always learning something new as a gift and an opportunity. And, you know, I haven’t always looked at it that way. And so I just want to take a moment and pause. And thank you for that. Because that’s changed really how I am seeing this, this concept of relevance. And I want me to ask you, like, on this topic of relevance, is that one of the reasons you teach?

Douglas Davis 35:55

And it ended up that I started teaching at 25. And, you know, the model was always there that my teachers, I pride, they worked in the day, and they taught at night. And so I saw that. And so I realized that, you know, ended up being what I saw. And yet in some ways, the relevance part, I’m going to sort of unpack this as well, because I think that this word and the change, and what’s going on in our industry is something that is a larger issue that’s also going on in our society that I think we have to deal with. But I remember, as I mentioned earlier, I went to Hampton University, historically black college to study graphic design and photography.

After leaving there, as I mentioned, I went to private Institute to get my masters. And then after maybe about seven or eight years of losing, like I said, while winning but losing different battles, because I didn’t know how to speak that language. I then went to get my second Master’s in integrated marketing, I didn’t want you. And what I realized lately is that not only did my high school guidance counselor not have a one, even one conversation with me about college, but in those three institutions, there was no one black teaching design or, or strategy. And then I became a design professor, then I became a strategy professor.

I think, when you look at what’s going on in society, when you look at design needing to become more diverse, when you look at the demographics in America, when you look at how some people will describe what’s going on the southern border as an, you know, an infestation. terrible word. Other people describe it as will, it’s what humans do, when they’re fleeing, or in a situation where they have to flee. It’s what happens on every border, because if if we’re having a crisis, here you go, and seek a better place to be. I think when we’re talking about relevance, when we’re talking about representation, when we’re talking about being able to see yourself, I can’t say that I teach because I, I didn’t see someone like me. But I can say that, if we’re talking about design changing, if we’re talking about the issues that are in our profession, also being a part of what’s in our society. I think that when we talk about relevance, I think we have to really have the conversation that is on the base of the Statue of Liberty.

It’s calling out to immigrants. But our policy has been so different in the past, you know, very different in the past four years, if equal justice under law is on the top of the Supreme Court, and yet, we’re watching the George Floyd trial right now in front of us. And there is witness after witness up there telling you that the sequence of events that happened were completely unique and different than what would have normally happened. Then, I think when we talk about relevance, and when we talk about America living up to its melting pot, you know, equals and, you know, liberty and justice under our equal justice under law.

I think we have to really talk about belonging. We have to really talk about the fact that people are coming to us because they believe what we say If we were a company, these would be our mission statement documents, these will be our vision documents, but there’s so many mixed signals that are built into what they say, and what the actual experiences. And a lot of times, as you mentioned earlier, alignment is what we’re being asked to do as creative people we’re being asked to come in and align some problem. And I always start with, well, where’s the gap between what we say? And what the people’s experience is, whenever they trust us? I close that. And I think relevance and belonging are why people are coming to us. But I think that we have to start asking ourselves, as institutions as an industry, are we relevant? Because there’s a call and response here? various people come to various institutions or employers or countries, they’re basically asking, do I belong? And based in their interactions with the country or with the employer, or with the client, good or bad? They’re going to conclude yes or no. And I think that if we can, as an industry, but also as individuals continue to ask ourselves a question that you asked, am I relevant? Are we relevant? If your metric on yes or no, I am relevant or not, I’m not relevant.

It’s tied to how many groups of people feel comfortable in the space that you’ve created, how wide your arms are open, then that is a call and response because it’s connected. And if you do care about being relevant, but you do see that some people have decided that they don’t belong, based on whatever environment you influence or which is created, or what you’re a part of, the next step is to go get those people to understand why, right? And so I’m mixing culture, I’m mixing, you know, what’s going on in America.

But you can’t separate it from the problems that are in our industry, you can’t, it’s not possible to separate the two. And when you look at it like that, it explains what’s going on in our industry, whether we’re talking about relevance, or belonging. And I think that if we don’t become really serious about this, we’re there will be threats to creativity, because of diversity being hindered. And I’ll go back to just on this point, I’ll go back to again, we got clubhouse. Before that it was you know, tick tock. And before that it was Snapchat before that was Twitter, right? And before that Facebook, and I can keep going because it’s gonna keep going. So why in the world, would you not want as many different types of minds on the problems when the industry moves at the speed of business, and we’ve already covered that we have to keep changing, we have to keep growing, we have to keep learning, to even keep up to even remain relevant. Why would you not want as many different minds or perspectives on a problem that you can grab?

And so I say this, in hopes of some of your listeners who I know are creative professionals who have influence over their studios, who could determine how exactly to staff, I’m saying this to your listeners, because I’m hoping that they can really think about the new barriers that COVID-19 has posed, since we’re all in our houses. You know, right now, going to school depends on your own bandwidth, your own internet speed, your own Mac, your own whatever, right.

But if you think about it, we’re asking people who don’t have a lot to buy the equivalent of a computer that cost as much as the car just to go to school. And, you know, if you don’t control what your internet speed is, because if you live in public housing, you know, again, people are going to college in order to get out of this the circumstances that they were born into in many cases, and all they need is a chance. And so, the Coronavirus has put us in a situation where, you know, there are a lot more barriers that are different. And some of the barriers that were there before are not there anymore. So some of it is leveled the playing field. But I think that belonging and relevance like these, these words that we we often talk about as people who are tasked with solving brands problems, you know, do our customers feel like they belong? are we creating a culture where we’re solving their problems, like what are their pain points that we discussed that stuff all the time, we talk about relationship management, we’re a field built on targeting, we craft messaging, you know, there are all these different words that we talked about.

And yet, when we exclude groups of people from sitting around the table, then not only can we not hear their perspective of what creativity is, and how we can solve this problem that it’s, it should be different than ours. But we also put ourselves in a situation where we’re not helping ourselves in in the demographics that are shifting, you know, because either what’s either your client base is going to become more black and brown, or either the people sitting at the table, this should be it should be, shouldn’t be really an ad or should be both. But overall, on order to serve that client basis, becoming more black and brown with the demographics of the nation, you got to make sure that they’re people behind the concept, who actually understand how to talk to these groups, so that you’re being authentic, and you can build that trust. And that you can actually build the customer base because that takes, you know, making promises, and then actually delivering on them. So, again, I know I expanded that into way more, but it’s bigger. And again, the strategist in me won’t allow me to sort of just look at those two words, as just those two words. The strategist in me says, You know what, this is much bigger. And there are a lot of pieces to this, if we’re going to continue to evolve to remain relevant, if we’re going to continue to, you know, now I think apply our skills to new systems design, operations, forecasting, decentralized decision making, all those things are the things that I believe are the new creative skills as a result of the Coronavirus.

All of that is what’s coming out of how you got to pivot because your clients are asking how we’re going to pivot, then it’s going to be your job to also have an opinion on some of those things. This is the next evolution of all the things that creative people have to learn. In order to stay relevant. I’ll give you this one last piece. I literally just days ago finished a class on finance, from Harvard Business School online. I hate Numbers, chapter one in the book, first paragraph, I take you back to NYU when I’m sitting in my statistics class, and I want to somebody shoot me in the face, because it was too much. However, what is my point? I understand that at my altitude, and at my point, like where I’m at in my career, if I don’t understand how to talk to other people who do get it. If I don’t understand how to ask the right questions, if I don’t understand which levers I can pull on my level, then I’m not going to get the business, I’m not going to be chosen, somebody else is going to be chosen. So me taking a finance class 15 $100. Okay, I hate numbers. But I’m going to find the fear.

Gonna find the fear just like I did when I was bad at typography. And I said, I’m only going to use type on this particular solution, because I’m going to turn my weaknesses into strengths. And that is the evolution. It’s a mindset leading is a verb, and a posture. And as creative people, I believe that we will lead us out of this crazy mess that we’re in right now. Whether it’s climate change, whether it’s our social ills that we’re going through right now, this just horrible Asian hate, or just you know, what happened in your area with, you know, people not having access to mental health and just having so many guns, I don’t even know why people do what they do, but that the systems need to be redesigned. And relevance and belonging are the questions that we will be judged by. It’s bigger than just words, this is how we are going to survive. And I’m hoping that in talking about it in a way that I’m scaling it up, unpacking all the different pieces, connecting these dots on something that’s much bigger than just your job, the problems your client has, and you being able to like navigate that stuff. It’s much bigger than that. And if we can see it as creative people, as bigger than that, I believe that they’re the opportunities there for us to lead. That’s what I believe. That’s what I believe. Wow.

Marc Gutman 49:36

Douglas Davis 50:56

Of course you can’t. I’m not there. You’re looking for me as if I was not me. And then when you say, Well, I looked, and I can’t No, you didn’t look, and you didn’t even understand that you’re not looking for me. And I think that that’s the part that has to be corrected. I also think that we have to rethink the measures of what we’ve used to determine someone’s aptitude or potential, whether it be for leadership or, or carrying a gun, frankly, as a policeman. I think we’ve got to rethink what we’ve used to judge someone’s worthiness or potential. I took the LSAT probably about three times.

And again, I mentioned earlier that my guidance counselor in high school, we never had one conversation about college, not 1/11 grade summer, I said to myself, you know, what, if I don’t go to college, I wanted to be because I didn’t choose to go versus I couldn’t go. So I chose to go to summer school, I chose to finish my foreign language requirements, I chose to take extra math, like get it right, I chose to take the LSAT three times. And in those three times, I got to like a 720, or 780, I can’t even remember. But on that measure, Marc, I’m stupid. If I were to let that number, tell me dictate to me what I was and was not capable of in the future, then I’m stupid. And I’m so thankful that that’s not how I didn’t listen to that, like, What do you know about me? None of these questions were even crafted with me in mind. So of course, I didn’t do well. And I’m not just saying that, like, Everything about it is wrong.

I am saying though, that we can’t measure everybody by the same yardstick. And that doesn’t mean that one is better than the other. It just means that there are other ways. And and people learn differently as creative people, you know that we all know that. And yet, we don’t apply that to the standard measures that we’ve always used to gauge someone’s potential. And I think that there’s something wrong with that. Because, you know, creative people like me, and you can grow up comparing themselves to other people based on those measures, and conclude that something’s wrong with them, when they’re the ones with the superpowers. You know, and I think that that is something that’s really important. We have superpowers and I’m not saying that being able to crunch numbers is not a superpower. It definitely is. But I am also saying that being bad at numbers is an indicator that you might be a creative. Think Overall, we really have to rethink our measures. We’ve got it and again, this is back to new systems design. This is back to us thinking through what’s wrong? And if you if you really look at this right,

I love this example. You know, there are more design decisions than there are visually literate people to make them. How do I know this? Well, if on live TV, the best picture is announced lala land and not moonlight because of the card, then that tells me that there was a problem that needed to be solved. There were people around who who had the title and the tools, but who are not visually literate. What is another example, if the wrong Mr. Universe gets crowned on national TV? What is another example if the Supreme Court has to determine who the President is because of the ballot design? What is another, I can keep going all day? Right? So there are more visually, there are more design problems than there are visually literate people to make them. And so again, like I’m back to this place, that we’ve got to redesign our systems, there’s so much broken, and there’s so many sort of problems to solve. And, you know, if you’re like me, as a creative person, you can’t unsee all the work around us. Because there’s so many things to redesign.

There’s so many things to rethink, but I think we can do it. And I think, you know, I was thinking about Okay, so what are the new measures, I would argue that we should have a grid metric, you know, if you don’t come from money, the money’s not the first thing that you think about to solve a problem. I want that person on my team, because that person had everything but money, that person has creativity, that person is thinking creatively, that person is not just like, yeah, we’ll throw XYZ in the budget at the problem. Yeah, we’re gonna need money at some point. But if you don’t have money, you still got a problem that you got to solve. And, you know, I would much rather have a grip metric, somebody who had to fight through some stuff. In order to get here. I want to know your story. How’d you get here? What do you do when you have more ambition and resources? You know, how did that work? And how, you know, what is your origin story? How did you get here, I can only see you now. You know, and oftentimes, I’m always really, really clear that, yes, I have three Emmys, you know, over my shoulder, and yet, it was not always like that.

And so I’m making a point to tell young creators, that it was a struggle, it was a struggle, because I don’t want anybody to get the wrong idea. It wasn’t always easy. And it’s not easy now. And so I think there’s so much work to do. There’s so many systems that we have to redesign and rethink. And the right people to do that, are you and I want to put another link in the chat that sort of deals with all of this, this sort of social, creative sort of mix that I’m putting together, because I’m looking at this as our competitive advantage as a nation, just like Michel Porter’s book, you know, competitive ventures of nations, this is a big problem that if we’re not careful, we are going to lose out because there’s so much human potential that we don’t allow, because of the color of somebody’s skin, or because of their gender, or because we’re worried about which bathroom, you’re going to use stupid stuff that if we could just focus on, you know, how someone’s mind would process dealing with this issue.

We can be so much farther ahead than we are right now. But we’re caught up on stupid things that divide us. And I think that, you know, I’m hopeful. I’m hopeful, especially in this generation, because they grew up in a time where, you know, the only president that they knew was black. But it wasn’t even a hurdle that like a black person could be president, right? They grew up in a time where now the vice president as a black woman, who also is, you know, has Asian descent as well, like these MCs, these these barriers that we had, like, you can have same sex unions, like all the stuff that took forever, right? It was just it was here, we had made the progress by the time that they were born. And so I hope that they can do something about the climate. I hope that because of their energy, and because they don’t have the same limitations that we had. I hope that their creative problem solving skills that we we get out of the way that we let them apply themselves to these big problems.

Because if we, if we’re not talking about if we keep talking about logos, we keep talking about like the job, then we’re part of the problem because we’re not even addressing all the other things that we better start to like attention to. And it you know, it would be embarrassing if I didn’t speak out, based on all the things that I had to navigate to even get here. And I think that, that that’s just always a really important thing that, you know, I have to touch on those things, things that, you know, may seem, you know, like third rail, but I, you know, I think we have to be more deliberate about closing the gap, the mixed signals that are there between what we say and what the experience is in America, you know, none of us as professionals would advise our client to do the complete opposite of everything hit the brandy, mission statement, and just the who would do that? Who would do that? No, but none of us. And so why do we tolerate it? Why do we tolerate it in society?

And I think that again, because that’s what we do, we should be the ones leading the conversation about how to make change. And I know that, you know, some people might be listening to like, well, this is outside of the lane of what I do. You know, I’m here to learn about tips and tricks about how to, like, you know, do better my job. And yes, I hear you, you know, I hope that there was something there that you could also listen to, but I also hope that you’ll take your superpowers and think about our systems that are broken, they need your skills. That’s why I’m talking to you about this, because you’re a part of who can fix it, because of your creativity. And so I’m calling out, because, you know, we need a different type of person to go into these other professions, you know, or else we’re lost. We’re lost. But I’m hopeful.

Marc Gutman 1:01:52

What new thing are you going to decide to learn? make a commitment to learning something new, put a flag in the sand. Email us if you’re so bold with what it is. I want to know that I’ll share it with Douglas as well. We are living in such an exciting time as the story is being written as we live it. We have an incredible opportunity to reinvent ourselves, learn new things and change the world. really change the world. It’s our job to reinstate that American mission statement on the Statue of Liberty. I’m up for the challenge. Are you a big thank you to Douglas Davis. You inspire me professionally, personally, and culturally. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, my friend.

We will link to all things Douglas Davis, his book Creative Strategy and the Business of Design, imported from Brooklyn, and much more in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wild story calm. Our best guests like Douglas come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstorm.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can’t deny.

Dr. Sarabeth Berk is the leading expert in hybrid professional identity, and a hybrid professional herself. She was featured in Forbes and is a TEDx speaker, author, and recipient of a Colorado Inno on Fire award for her innovative work.

Through a decade of research and coaching, Sarabeth developed a one-of-a-kind approach that takes personal branding to a whole new level. Her hybrid title is Creative Disruptor because she blends her artist/researcher/educator/designer identities together to lead and create innovative strategies that radically connect resources and people in new ways.

Sarabeth obtained her PhD from the University of Denver, and has degrees from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and Rhode Island School of Design. Her background includes directing major initiatives in K-12, higher education, startups, and nonprofits.

• Reflective tips and tricks to start identifying your uniqueness/hybridity

Instagram: @morethanmytitle

Facebook: More Than My Title

LinkedIn: Sarabeth Berk

Website: morethanmytitle.com

[16:03] My entire background has been about interdisciplinarity, and crossing things that are unrelated together, and finding new things at the intersection. So this has always been a heartbeat. And it comes from my creative background. It comes from experimenting with making meaning. I think that’s really who I am.

[22:48] Your hybridity is your special blend of spices that is unique to you. No one else has combined identities that way and that’s what makes you unique and strong in whatever you’re doing for work.

[26:50] The reason hybridity matters is because when you know the different parts that are important and you know why they fit together, then you know your uniqueness, you know why you’re different than all the other “roses” and “fish” and “dogs” because we’re all using these generic labels to try and just fit into boxes.

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Sarabeth Berk 0:02

Marc Gutman 0:58

And before we get into the show, here’s a reminder, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings they really do as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. And we like ratings. So please go ahead and give us a review. If you like the show.

Today’s guest is Dr. Sarabeth Berk. In that question. What do you do? was a tough one for her to answer. She did many different things from design to research to innovation. And she never had a good answer to that. That question. I don’t know about you. But when I don’t have a good answer, I Google for it. Then I maybe read a blog. But Sarabeth, she went full researcher on the question, discovered that work professionals have many different identities and where those identities intersect. Well, that’s where the magic happens.

Today, Dr. Sarabeth Berk is the leading expert in hybrid professional identity, and a hybrid professional herself. She has been featured in Forbes and is a TEDx speaker, author and the recipient of a Colorado inno on fire Award for her innovative work. Sarabeth’s hybrid title is Creative Disruptor because she blends her artist, researcher, educator designer identities together to lead and create innovation strategies that radically Connect resources and people in new ways. Sarabeth obtained her PhD from the University of Denver, and has degrees from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, in the Rhode Island School of Design, so she knows what she’s talking about. Her background includes directing major initiatives in K through 12, higher education, startups and nonprofits. And this is her hybrid story.

I’m here with Sara Berk, the Creative Disruptor at More Than My Title, Sara, thanks for coming on the show. And let’s get right into it. What is a Creative Disruptor?

Sarabeth Berk 4:10

And that’s me in a nutshell, like that term is my identity in my work. And that’s why I call myself a Creative Disruptor. I’m changing things for the good.

Marc Gutman 5:10

But you, you started that with saying, I didn’t know what to call myself, like, why did that even matter? What why was that coming up as a problem for you like what was happening in your life where not knowing what to call yourself was an issue?

Sarabeth Berk 5:42

And that, to me launched this whole series of events where I got really curious on Who am I like, I’m not what people are calling me. I’m not just a teacher or designer. Like, there’s something else here. And I really wanted to figure that out.

Marc Gutman 6:40

Sarabeth Berk 7:01

Marc Gutman 7:56

Sarabeth Berk 8:07

I was a ski instructor after I graduated. Because I literally was like, where do I start. And then I eventually went back to grad school got a degree in art and design, when it’s a classroom worked for some nonprofits, and boom, then I felt a little more secure. Because what we usually do in society is you define yourself by your job. So when you’re in a job, you have security around your identity, you’re like, Oh, I’m Joe, the marketing manager, and I’m Sally, the coder and like you just have this sense of who you are based on what you do, because we spend the majority of our lives in our jobs. And literally research says that when you lose a loved one, go through divorce or lose a job. Those are the three biggest moments where you lose a sense of yourself. And I until you go through that you don’t realize how powerful you associate yourself with the thing you’re doing. So that was a little bit of how I started noticing I was having an identity crisis is when I lost it.

Marc Gutman 9:55

Sarabeth Berk 10:35

Marc Gutman 11:24

Sarabeth Berk 12:01

Marc Gutman 13:12

Sarabeth Berk 14:18

So I picked a major in my undergrad that was actually 50/50 art and critical thinking, like I took any studio major I wanted, I didn’t have to focus on one, screen printing, puppetry fashion design, letterpress printing, I was all over the map. And then I was going into these classes, one was called trans modalities. And the professor Joseph Greg Lee, he’s actually deaf. And so he would talk to us about, he could speak but he had a translator about things like, how do you know the taste of a cigar, or the taste of wine when it’s written down on these cards, and my brain was going crazy with like making sense of translating information from one modality to another. And yet I’m doing these art forms where I’m doing mixed media practice.

So my entire background has been about interdisciplinarity, and crossing things that are unrelated together, and finding new things at the intersection. So this has always been a heartbeat. And it comes from my creative background. It comes from experimenting with making meaning I think that’s really who I am.

Marc Gutman 16:23

Sarabeth Berk 16:59

I’m an innovator that goes back to the disrupter too. And in order to do that, I needed people to see me as more than an art teacher like that was how people saw me serve if you teach art, and I was like I do. But I’m also actually on the side creating websites. And over here I’m making and selling art on Etsy. And, oh, I’m starting to learn about research because I was taking grad school on the side. And in order to leave the classroom, I started applying to jobs that weren’t teaching jobs. And in my cover letter, I noticed I started writing, I’m Sarabeth, and I’m an artist slash educator slash designer, I started using slashes. Because I needed people to see I have different sides to myself, because the teacher part was so strong and dominant. And by putting slashes, I was like, well, it’s not a comma. It’s not an and I’m like, I’m all of this mashed together. I don’t know how else to grammatically write it for people to see, like what I’m trying to explain.

So that was me, like, I don’t know if you’ve heard of the slash movement. But that’s like a thing people use. There’s also like the multi hyphen, people that put dashes. So I was already feeling that in myself, I just didn’t know, other people did this, too. And then I got to grad school, I decided to work on my doctorate full time, and I was working in an entrepreneurship creativity program on the side. And it was in my doctoral program where I really felt like, I just don’t know who I am anymore. Like, I’m not just a teacher. And yet, what am I?

And then I learned from honestly, the race, class and gender studies class, about intersectionality, that you actually are the sum of the intersection of all your different identities. And it was like, that’s interesting. Yeah, of course, I’m white, middle class woman, and blah, blah, blah, like all these identities, but what about my professional identity? Like I had this moment where I said, Can I ask that question? Just in the professional side of my life? Like, are there intersections between being an artist, designer, teacher, researcher, that became my research question. So because I was in a doctoral program where we’re learning to think and act this way, and we’re doing quantifiable research, I needed to pick a research topic. So it all kind of dived in that moment of like, my personal pain, the work I was learning to do, and then this curiosity that formed and then so as you as you got interested in this, like, what did you find? Yeah, it was like, where do we start with this? I couldn’t go around and ask people like, what are your intersections? Like, how do you see intersectionality Marc in your work because this was like two weird of a question that even i had never been asked before i didn’t know how to answer it.

so i started a case study of like five different individuals that i followed and observed and interviewed about their work because i thought am i just experiencing this or other people and how do i have a study around that and so i went and started talking to individuals about okay your title is blank you know this thing but what do you really do in that job and very quickly i started hearing people explain the different parts of themselves and then the theme that i started getting across all these interviews and observations was moments when people are just in their zone of genius you and i’ve talked about that before i love this this discussion and the zone of genius is a place where you’re in flow you’re at your best you’re most energized alive things are effortless and in those moments people were actually explaining without knowing they were saying it how their parts their different identities were being activated if at the same time so this one teacher was like you know i’m being an empath by hearing the problems of my students and giving them guidance and counseling but i’m also sharing knowledge and i’m also bringing in creativity and i’m also this one also this and i was like oh my gosh that’s the intersection like is this really how it works that when we feel our best and our work we’re in the intersection of our of our work and i started knowing i was on to something like that was the beginning of the hunch so i kept checking it out testing it right like i was trying to understand do more people have this too and sure enough they do.

Marc Gutman 21:37

Sarabeth Berk 21:59

Marc Gutman 23:03

So when you— that’s really interesting to me like that you have all these special ingredients that become your your hybridity like like i get that like we want to activate what makes us special but like why is it so important that we’re focused on this like like why why does it matter?

Sarabeth Berk 24:41

Marc Gutman 24:56

And so you know again i’d love to know like why so i guess what you’re saying and when you when you put it back on me is it matters because it helps you stand out and it helps you to differentiate but i mean have you experienced any of that yourself? Like where it becomes like a little bit like do you do you follow the norms and say i’m a marketer or do you say or you know do you say i’m a you know something else?

Sarabeth Berk 26:16

So essentially, the reason hybridity matters is because when you know the different parts that are important like those special ingredients and you know why they fit together then you know your your uniqueness you know why you’re different than all the other roses and fish and dogs because we’re all using these generic labels to try and just fit into boxes like you do marketing and you do branding and i do research but then the question is what kind like what kind of branding do you really do and who do you do for and how are you different and what makes you unique?

So the hybridity is articulating in a clear way that isn’t confusing this is it. This is why we stand out and you can point to it now i still think the notion of hybridity is that it defies language like that is literally one of the things i found in the research when you’re in the intersection of multiple things so my primary identities are being an artist, researcher designer, and educator that i put into a venn diagram and then i go okay who am i at the middle of that venn diagram there is no one right or wrong way to name that it’s up to me but once i do i sort of give myself a new label and then the way that i help people understand sir about the Creative Disruptor because that’s my hybrid title is i say i work at the intersection of being an artist researcher designer and educator which then enables me to radically create innovation strategies and systems for organization and people. and that like three part

That’s my intro essentially is a give a hybrid title which is my unique label i break it down into the parts because that’s what’s familiar people know what those parts are but then i describe the relationship of how those parts fit together which is the meaning like why i do it how i’m being an artist educator designer what’s the point of that in the world so by giving an explanation of that degree it really actually changes the way people see me they’re like they hear my name they see my parts and then they see this is her definition of herself and that’s different than all the other artists and educators and researchers we’ve ever met it’s a unique combination i think businesses need that too right like what are the parts and services of what they do and why do they do those things together what what is the relationship between the things and then you start to find those hybrid spaces

Marc Gutman 29:23

Sarabeth Berk 30:10

Marc Gutman 30:11

Sarabeth Berk 30:17

I was like, people are gonna think I’m crazy. If I say I’m Sarabeth, I’m a hybrid. And they’d be like, What are you talking about? So it took me a few years, and I needed that time to socialize and do more observation with more people. Like, I started just networking for my own work, because I was doing innovation strategy with K 12 schools at the time, I’d have coffee meeting, and I was meeting people in the community. And I’d learned about them, and what do they do? And slowly but surely, again, and again, I was noticing people are more than their job titles, they have all these different parts. And they’re not good at identifying which parts are the most important to them, nor are they good at explaining how those parts fit together.

So I kept seeing the same issues and other people I met. And I would throw it out there and say, you know, have you ever thought you might be a hybrid? And people would be like, what, like, What are you talking about? And then I’ll explain a little, and then go, Wow, that’s that is me. That’s, that makes a lot of sense. So I was validating, it’s like any entrepreneur, when you have a new product, like do people want this, does it mean anything to them. And so after a couple of years of that I knew in my heart, I wanted to write a book someday about this. And then getting these stories and more, you know, understanding of how this looked in the world, it helps me find my voice. And it helped me start to see the shape of how do I need to explain this to the mainstream public because I wasn’t in the university land anymore. And so that’s what I did, I decided to write a book. And honestly, I didn’t have a vision.

After that, I was like, I’ll write the book, and then see what happens. And literally, I published the book came out April 2020. The title of the book is More Than My Title, the power of hybrid professionals, and a workforce of experts in generalists. And the fact that I’d use the term hybrid professional. At the same year, the world was going through a pandemic, and everything was becoming hybridize, work and learning and the events and like all sectors, it was really a moment of just serendipity that I was already thinking about this, and the world started talking about it. So that it’s led to a number of interesting conversations. Because Another thing I want to bring up, I didn’t know that you can tell me how much you know about it is category creation. Category creation, from what I’ve learned is when you invent a whole new type of product that the market didn’t know they need it. So they’re not searching for it yet, like athleisure. That’s my favorite example. like nobody knew they needed athletic apparel that could be worn outside and exercised in but now it’s everywhere.

Yeah. And so hybrid professionals, and hybrid professional identity is a new category of workers, and a new way of thinking about the workforce. And so people aren’t searching for this. So the adjacent ways people are still talking about it, is personal branding, and career development. And then the academics that identity research piece. So I’m living in a zone of joining conversations in those other circles, showing them and getting them to think about, don’t you mean, hybridity? Aren’t we talking about identity here? Like? How does that factor into your career development and the way you brand yourself like that, to me is now how I’m bringing this idea into the world. Yeah, and I think that like, even this idea of personal branding, I mean, for me, like it was kind of an icky word couple years ago, it’s like who? personal branding.

But it’s almost like now to be a modern professional, you have to brand yourself personally, whether you’re an entrepreneur, whether you’re an executive, I mean, you have this identity, to your point, outside of your title. And people are looking to that to be like, well, what else are you talking about? What else are you thinking about? How are you putting your own interesting perspective on the world? And so that that’s also just this other kind of thing that’s intersecting with this, this time that you’re in right now and why hybridity is so

Marc Gutman 35:00

Sarabeth Berk 35:29

Because what I didn’t see at the time, I just, I didn’t know it yet. Like, I didn’t know what I was trying to write and say, Yeah, I hadn’t found it. So after a few months of just putting myself through the ropes, I stopped and laid it down. I think I also got distracted by work projects. And my other goal at that point was, I need a book agent, right? Like, I need a literary agent to be a serious author. I’m not going to self publish. So I took a little bit of time trying to send proposals and get an agent and I got some bites. But I learned quickly, it’s about the size of your audience. They’re like, how many followers do you have? How big is your email list, your Instagram, all of that. And I didn’t have a presence yet. And they said, come back to us when you have x 1000. It was like 10 or 20,000, it was pretty high.

So I was feeling defeated. And I kept talking to more authors. How did you do it? What did you do, and it’s just a really crazy journey. It’s one of the most opaque industries on how you publish books. And everyone’s story was different. Essentially, you either self publish, or you get a giant house like Penguin Random House. And somewhere in the middle is independent publishing, which is actually called hybrid publishing. So long story short, I found a woman who is in the independent publishing world, she became a book coach for me.

By the time I found her, I had validated and had a lot more confidence, I’d done a TEDx. I gotten asked to do some big speaking. In those speaking engagements, I was talking about this idea to audiences that I had no touch points with right there were cold. So I was starting from scratch with them. And by the end, they were just blown away, like the comment I get the most is, my mind is blown right now. And to me, that meant Wow, this was a really impactful idea that I’m sharing, then. So the questions they started asking me things like, Well, how do you figure this out? How do I do this myself? What are the Venn diagrams? How do I look at the intersections that started giving me the fuel of these are the questions I need to write about in the book, this is what people want to know. And this is how they want to know it, I just need to find the best way to share it.

So suddenly, I had a lot more inspiration, I knew my audience, I had this book coach, the writing the book, honestly, Marc, I did it in four to five months, like I started around Thanksgiving of 2019. I have the manuscript, final draft by like February, because I was aiming to polish by April. So it was like, that’s what happened.

Marc Gutman 38:26

Sarabeth Berk 38:51

So convert that back to an identity. Who are you when you do that thing? Just because people are doing marketing or helping with branding? Do they call themselves a marketer? Are they a brander? And sometimes it’s one to one they’re like, yes, of course, when I do marketing, I am a marketer. And other times are like, actually, when I’m doing this branding thing, I’m I’m more of an i via navigator, or I’m a wayfinder or I’m I’m crystallizing, I’m a catalyst.

So you realize there’s other identities you are that you’re not showing or talking about if that makes sense so it’s really the first step is taking an inventory and doing a really big brainstorm on all the identities you’re showing up with and that you’re using and then the next big step is to narrow down you go through and you see which identities i call them are your primary and which are your non primary or like really like your secondary tertiary and the biggest difference between primary and non primary is your primary ones are the ones you use most frequently like every day because they bring you joy you feel alive they’re the expertise you want to be known for.

For me it’s the artist researcher educator designer like that is my core foundation of course i’m still doing like graphic design and event planning and these other things but i don’t use those every day and that’s not my best identity so you look at your brainstorm list and then narrow it to your primary ones and you have to have at least two to be a hybrid right like two identities combined will make one intersection three identities is sort of the sweet spot i think three is what most people are usually in for is the upper limit if you have more than four primary identities you’ve got to keep narrowing because there’s just too many intersections so that is the beginning of this work the second part i call investigating the intersections that is where things get really hard like time and again that’s where people struggle because it is literally a space if that’s unconscious and you’ve never thought of who am i in my intersections like that’s a whole different conversation we need to have.

Marc Gutman 41:41

Sarabeth Berk 41:59

Marc Gutman 42:09

Sarabeth Berk 42:38

Like these are really broad things like everyone says they’re good at problem solving i’ll be honest i hear that a lot so the trick that i use and this is another strategy i have it’s called your first best or only. and so instead of approaching it with where are you unique which is ultimately what we’re trying to suss out in finding your intersections and your hybridity.

If you look at yourself and go okay where have i been the first on something like the first project i did the first client i landed the first it started a new process it could be on a team or in a company or the best like you were the top in your group the top in a region and the only you were one of a kind no one else has even done this thing yet right pull out those stories try and get like one per category and that will start to reveal this is you in a moment of uniqueness so i was like the first to launch and lead this innovation ecosystem around early childhood wow okay so let me break that down what was i doing who was i in that moment to do that thing what identities were showing up when i was in that first moment if you so going into my research hat for a moment there’s a notion of triangulation what triangulation means is when you’re collecting data if you only have one data point you don’t know what that means, if it’s good or bad and if you have two data points then one might be good one might be bad so you don’t know which it is but if you have a third it’s the tiebreaker right it’s like okay two of them are good or two are bad so you know you’re leaning more this direction.

that’s how it goes, I think in learning about your hybridity. So if you can think of three stories that represent your first best or only, then you can start to say which identity showed up in story number one, which identities are number two, which are number three, and you start to look for identities that are consistent across these moments to figure out, Oh, those are the identities that are really true to me, like these are the ones I’m using the most. And they’re important.

And that is just one way to start to find your uniqueness. There’s a lot of tools and tricks I use in this work, because this is a very deeply reflective process. I did a crash course this weekend with individuals and one of the participants that if the best he said, Sarabeth, this work, is like feeling muscles you didn’t know you had after a really hard workout. Like I start asking people questions they have literally never been asked before. And that’s why their minds are blown. They’re like, Oh, my head hurts. And I have to give them a break. Like we can’t do the whole thing in a day or in an hour. It’s kind of broken into segments.

And this is why, I’m literally making you step out of yourself. Like it’s metacognition like watching what you’re doing, and who you are, when you’re doing it, to start to see patterns and start to truly notice what specifically you’re doing that other people don’t do, which then creates that recipe back to the ingredients of who you are in your hybridity.

Marc Gutman 46:28

Sarabeth Berk 46:51

He was balancing energy and projects or resources, and he was managing tension, but he had a methodology to it. And he’s like, That is me the tension methodologist. Someone else I worked with, she is the methodical Weaver of wonder. She’s really good at pulling visions out and weaving them together. And she again, has a really special way she does it. this other guy, he’s the human hitmaker, someone else call themselves a serial adju agitator. He was merging two words education and agitator together. And another one is the spiritual sparkplug. Those are a few off the top my head.

Marc Gutman 47:57

Sarabeth Berk 48:12

Marc Gutman 48:39

Sarabeth Berk 48:59

Marc Gutman 49:23

We will link to all things Sarabeth and More Than My Title in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstory.com. Our best guests like Sarabeth come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can’t deny

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Beau Haralson has over a decade of experience launching products and building brands both big and small including Google, Traffic & Conversion, DigitalMarketer, OfficeMax, and many others.

Over the years he’s worked with celebrities such as Lebron James and Arnold Schwarzenneger, and entrepreneurs that deserve to be celebrities, doubling over 15 businesses along the way. 

As the co-founder of ScaleThat, Beau is the creative force behind all campaigns that ScaleThat Select works with. He regularly consults for brands and speaks surrounding his unique approach to marketing strategy, campaign architecture, and generating traffic and conversions predictably.

• Be patient and pursue things fully, but don’t pursue them all at once. You can have your definition of success in its own season.

Instagram: @beauharalson

Website: scalethat.com

[31:40] I think success is iterative. I think that people think success is like, “Man, if I could just buy a Lamborghini one day…” That would be the marker of success for some people and that’s great. If that motivates you, fast cars are cool, I get it, go for it. But I think like your definition of success can change every six months if it needs to.

[38:17] I wanted to be a great husband and be a great dad. And if I had to be a “good businessman”, that was okay. I’d rather not be a great businessman and a good husband and a good dad, or maybe potentially a bad dad because I run out of hours.

[44:15] A lot of people want success now and they define it in a certain way. But I think you can be patient and have your definition of success in its own season.

Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now.

• Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process

Beau Haralson 0:02

Just like it all gets real. Like, oh, yeah, there’s no departments for anything. There we go.

Marc Gutman 0:50

Before we get into the show, here’s a not so gentle reminder. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify. Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Today’s guest is Beau Haralson. Beau has over a decade of experience launching products and building brands both big and small, including Google traffic and conversion, digital marketer, Office Max and many others. Over the years, he’s worked with celebrities such as LeBron James and Arnold Schwarzenegger, and entrepreneurs that deserve to be celebrities, doubling over 15 businesses along the way.

Beau is the creative force behind all campaigns that Scale That works with and is regularly consulted surrounding his unique approach to marketing strategy, campaign architecture in generating traffic and conversions predictably. But what is really fascinating about Beau, is his decision to put family first and build a company in life that supports that. A little side note, if you would have asked nine year old Marc what name he wished his parents would have chosen for him. They would have been Beau, inspired by Beau and Luke Duke fame. But I always wanted to be a Beau. Let’s get back to today’s Beau. Beau Haralson talks about working on the now famous of yourself campaign with officemax what big brands really want, and how small brands can compete in this is his story.

I am here with Beau Haralson, the co founder and CEO of Scale That Beau, thanks for coming on. And let’s get right to it. We’re both digging out of snow and dealing with snow here in Colorado. So well, we’re running a little late. But I wanted to start off with real simple thought of a question of what is Scale That? that’s the name of your company. Tell me a little bit about Scale That.

Beau Haralson

Yeah, number one, thanks for having me. I’m really honored to be here. And Marc, it’s been great to I felt comfortable wearing hat today. Because I know you love a good hat. And so anyway, thanks for thanks for that. But the name Scale That ultimately came from, I’ve been doing agency work and help them grow brands for the better part of a decade plus, and fortune 500 brands and everything in between. and the number one thing I see folks get wrong is they just scale the wrong thing. And as long as I want, like, it’s not like we woke up that day and said, you know, let me just grow my business in the wrong way. We’re all well intentioned people. But one of the things I’m really passionate is helping people find the right thing to scale. It’s not a matter of if people want to scale, that’s usually not the conversation, it’s usually figuring out the right thing to grow. And the right way to grow a business and so, so getting a little bit cheeky with it, we’re like yeah, let’s call it Scale That.

Beau Haralson 4:24

Definitely romanticize the concept of scale. I mean, you know, I think it’s definitely every entrepreneurs dream to find that that predictable path to revenue is words that I hear tossed around, there’s a great book of that title, written by his name escapes, I think, is Aaron

Rodgers, but one of the early guys at Salesforce and talks about this idea of predictable path to revenue, and everyone kind of caught on to that idea of like, Okay, if marketing can get predictable, if sales can get predictable, and we can scale, then like, that’s the that’s the golden ticket. And and to some extent, you know, marketing has gotten to be somewhat predictable. You can you can figure out your customer acquisition costs, and figure out some of the customer journey. But there’s, there’s part of this lightning and bottle that’s just elusive. And I think, to answer your question, ideas, scale, to me means finding that as close as you can, finding that algebra equation, if you will, going, Okay, if we do this, and we do that, it’ll cost us x, and the output is y. And if we, if we do that consistently, then we’ll grow in scale. The challenges is those inputs change, marketing changes, people change, we’re kind of complicated ourselves.

So it’s an ever-complex kind of system of variables. And then deep within that is the question of scale readiness, a lot of a lot of companies will get into it. And they’ll find that path to scale. And then, you know, they’ll break. we’ve, we’ve run a lot of folks out of inventory, we’ve broken some companies, and I think, like, part of our questionnaires we get to know companies is are you ready to scale. And you know, there’s assumptions within that. And often in fixing those things and taking a half step back, you’ll find more efficient ways to scale, you’ll

just get more exciting from there. But so I think, as much as I love to talk about scale, what I love to talk about is growth, readiness, and close proximity to that as well. Because that’s the thing, you can control some of those variables, you can’t kind of at the top of the funnel, but the things you can’t control is like if you were to say, sell 500 units or whatever you’re selling or fulfill, I have to fulfill five more contracts this this week. Would it break you? Are you ready? You know, so that type of stuff is stuff that it’s not as romantic as romanticized. But a lot of the good answers are found within those questions. Such a great answer. Thank you. And as I think about that, you know, I also consented a twinge or a twin, if you will, in your voice that suggests that you’re not necessarily you didn’t you were born and raised here in Colorado. And so as you were, as you were growing up, why don’t you take us a little bit back to where you were raised? And where you like, Did you think you’d ever be into this, this concept of scale and marketing and all this kind of stuff.

So I was born in Texas, pretty good West Texas, which everyone’s on particularly I’m talking about getting my oil changed, it comes right out. But most most of my accent, I think, is somewhat neutralized, but totally depends on who I’ve been talking to, particularly if I’ve talked to my mom that day, it comes right out, but or if you’re applying a lot of snowbank and a truck, right like that, that gets as centralized as well. That’s right. But um, but yeah, so I was born and if you’d read like, say, my high school yearbook, it would have said, like, hey, Bo, you’re going to be a great youth pastor someday, and or you’re going to be like, a park ranger someday, I’ve always been in the outdoors. I grew up in a home, where my folks were missionaries growing up. And so by the nature of that, by the time I was 13, I’ve been to I think, like, six different countries, all of them in very much Third World environments. traveled, the majority of the US just grew up. And really, I wouldn’t say like, first class traveling very much a lot of places with not a lot of water. Had a knife pulled on me had a gun pulled on me in those travels, like had had a lot of interesting, you know, perspectives. I think by the time I was like, 1314, and I didn’t realize how weird it was entirely compared notes for some some of my friends and was like, What do you guys do this summer? And they’re like, we’d like baseball on I’d be like, cool. I almost got shot.

Oh, that’s different. Yeah. So I think on the other side of, you know, of that, I think, as scary as some of those experiences were, I’m really, really grateful for some perspective that gave me on just kind of, I felt like I got a small undergrad degree and anthropology, by nature of just getting to travel and go to places where, you know, there wasn’t electricity, there wasn’t running water, you know, just makes you grateful for for every day, and I’m grateful for that experience as well. So pastor, youth pastor or Park

Marc Gutman 9:59

Beau Haralson 10:18

recognize as being halfway decent along the way. So I haven’t stopped yet. So we’ll see if one day I’ll just retire into being a park ranger, though that’s still the goal. So how did your parents feel about not carrying on the the line of work, and I imagine they probably had a lot of hopes and dreams for you, as you were thinking about being a youth pastor, or growing into the kind of a similar similar areas, then, you know, I think, I think, overall, my dad is still a great mentor of mine. And I think overall, they’re wildly supportive. I mean, I think that if I had gone into nearly anything, they would have been pretty excited about it for me, so that I never felt any undue pressure from them. Let’s be honest, and they’ve been part of the journey. They geek out on it when I release new commercial or import a new project. And so I’m really grateful for the support.

Marc Gutman 13:05

Beau Haralson 13:23

at the time, we wanted to move to Colorado and had opportunities out here and I punted on all of them, and I said, Hey, we’re gonna go do this whole thing in Chicago, and give it a go. And so I went worked at officemax corporate headquarters, actually on the business side of things and then I reported in

Because it’s kind of a liaison from the business side to the marketing side, so is representing the voice of the business to the marketers and saying, hey, go and grow this accordingly. And I’d say we’re like marketing kind of hit me hook line and sinker was I got to be part of the elf yourself campaign. So I don’t know if you remember this campaign, but you got to like you pasted your face on a dancing elf when flash animations were saying and, and you share with friends. So Bob originated that campaign along with this team, and you got to be a part of that. And I was like, Okay, I yeah, this is it. This is the fun side of things. And then that was kind of that was it for me for marketing.

Marc Gutman 15:38

Beau Haralson 15:49

I was like that was that was cool. We were able to actually put some bread on the table for the company gets maker mental funds and a really challenging time. And roundabout. Then Office Depot went to announce they were in they were they were actually going to buy out Office Max. And even if my number would have been called I would have been moving to Boca Raton, Florida. And nothing against Boca Raton. I just I was like, Yeah, I think I think this is our chapter change. And so I’ve been building a network out here in Colorado for seven years. At that point time, I’d flown out here and I’d ski a day, I’d bike a day. And then I’d go shake hands and have coffee with people out here for seven years straight, regardless of the year. I always just did. That was how I did spring break. And so called up some folks in the network out here and went to work for an agency out here for a little while. And so I got the bug for entrepreneurship.

Marc Gutman 17:46

Beau Haralson 17:48

Marc Gutman 18:40

Beau Haralson 19:06

Like, I got news for you, it’s probably in this, maybe in this decade, maybe even in this like two or three year gap that well, things are simple. And it all felt complicated at the time. But like, in hindsight, he was right, right, like life does have prevented you get a little bit more complicated as you go on. I still encourage people that are that have that call to entrepreneurship, no matter the life stage, but but I’m glad I took the dive then. And you’re right, it was admittedly scary at that time. I think I remember the first time I got like a $1500 check from our first client. And I felt like it was like, This is crazy. Just like felt so real to me. So scary. And then I was like, well, so like, would I get the check to you know?

Just like, it all gets real. Like, you’re like, Oh, yeah, there’s no departments for anything. There we go.

Marc Gutman 20:51

Beau Haralson 21:17

Marc Gutman 21:33

Beau Haralson 21:50

Because a lot of folks that were just in the content marketing game, at that point in time, didn’t fully understand the power of paid ads, and advertising and amplifying that content. And so we, I think we quickly moved up in the rank amongst our peers in terms of like understanding and how to create an amplify a funnel, also under the tutelage of you mentioned Digital Marketer under the tutelage of Ryan deiss. And, and Richard Lindner and the crew there, so we kind of met up with them that stream throughout that and drank a ton of the digital marketer Kool Aid. And I’m glad I did it was it’s been impactful for me and my career, went on have an opportunity to support them from the paid ads side of things actually run their ads for them in a later chapter, and really form a long, long term relationship with those guys.

Marc Gutman 23:23

Beau Haralson 23:33

Marc Gutman 23:33

Beau Haralson 23:52

So, so or excuse me, Mike and I had that conversation and like you said part of amicably and he ended up your work work with that company down in Texas for a little while. And that was great. And I took over complete ownership of climb, and ran it for a good another six to nine months, something to that effect, and one of those other suitors if you will continue to pursue me in that in that gap of time. And, and that was a local creative agency out here in Boulder called human and human ultimately acquired climb, I think six to nine months past that, that four year mark, where Mike and I separated. And it was, again, I got in, I think I’d had a dress rehearsal through of like, what the whole acquisition could look like, and, and got a taste of what the main act could look like. And, and really could see acceleration through through acquisition as part of my journey at the time. And I’m really glad that I stepped through that door. Yeah, and got through those conversations and had an exit. And, and, you know, I think it’s not as common in the service industry. But I could write a, at least two or three chapters of a book on like, what I learned going through it. And, and I’m really glad I did, and was able to, you know, go through that process and provide for my family and get some level of, you know, like an exclamation point on, you know, four years of 60 and 80, and sometimes 100 hour weeks of just kind of pushing and working hard.

Marc Gutman 26:35

Yeah, you said you learned a ton. If you could share one thing that you learned out of out of that experience? What would it be? Or what do you share most often with people?

Beau Haralson 27:45

The the way I learned this lesson was by nature of the birth of our first kiddo, so he Eli was born about two years into a four year stint, if you will, as an entrepreneur, and he was born two months early. And so we spent six weeks in the hospital with him. And it was a really intense six weeks, right, like, you know, I could answer emails, sometime at 10 o’clock at night. And it was, you know, we literally lived in the hospital with them. And it was really, really humbling, because I came out of that experience and thought, Man, I built this business for it to survive with me being in the room 60% of the time. And I can’t be in the room 60% of the time, like, even if I want to, like there’s life circumstances that come up. And so I sat down, and I wrote out all the things that I did on a week to week basis. And I literally just was like, Okay, what is that I can I delegate operationalize form, put a process around. And one of that’s like the top 20%, that like, absolutely requires the, the me being in the room moment. And I cut out about 40% of what I did. And I operationalized it as best I could with Mike coming out of the hospital. And if I hadn’t done that, I don’t think we would ever accident to be honest. Because like, it just would have been a talent acquisition, and not like a company acquisition. And by nature building those processes. And they weren’t perfect to begin with, but they got better and better. And we got better and better. We actually had something that was acquirable that people were interested in. And I think I had to lower some pride, right. I like to I like to be the Don Draper. I like to come in with creative ideas. I like to be that guy. And I think I have a knack for it. But but if that’s the 20% and like, what’s the other 80% that that is necessary, but not, you know, maybe a necessary evil is big. You know

Like to that actually takes away from those creative moments or takes away from those impactful moments? And how can we, you know, so anyway, I could wax and wane on about that for a long time. But I think I’d encourage you, wherever you’re at. No matter what business stage, I read a book called essentialism. Man, scrag McEwen. There it is, if you read the first chapter, it’s great. But it just talks about the idea of writing yourself out of the job out of a job, and doing only the stuff that you’re the best at, and delegating the best as the rest as best you can. So even if you’re ever going to axe it or not, it’s good practice. It’s a good thing to get used to. And a good, good, good audit. And I’m glad that by nature of circumstance, I had to go through that audit the hard way to do it the easy way. don’t end up in the hospital.

Marc Gutman 30:54

Beau Haralson 31:38

I think week one, I found myself like on a plane up to like Nike headquarters and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, okay, here we go. And I’d work with some like, fortune 1000 brands call it but not like fortune 50 or not like fortune 100. And I was like, Okay, all right, here we go. And so I bought a new pair of shoes, which was a good idea. And you know, like, just like, you know, all sudden were but it was what was ironic about the whole thing is that the conversations weren’t that dissimilar of early stage startups. And I’ll leave you with the I’ll leave one concept one, one footnote of this whole experience is that the secret of what I think of working with big brands is that small brands want to be big. And big brands actually want to be small. And so like there’s this interesting, like, kind of triangulation between these two things I saw on getting to work with small and big. And actually, I think that’s pretty cool. But if you’re a small brand, listening, and if you you know, maybe you’re a challenger brand, or you’re just kind of like in that early stage of creating that momentum, your greatest advantage is the fact that you’re small. It’s that you’re nimble, that you can create these amazing relationships with your customers early on, and that’s going to that’s going to be what’s creates raving fans.

And the secret to the big guys, don’t tell you is that they actually are kind of like, jealous might be the wrong word. But they, they study you and that’s why you have these acquisitions of like Hormel and Justin’s nut butter or watch Dollar Shave Club and what they’ve done over the last five to 10 years, they were a challenger brand not too long ago. Harry’s fall we’re talking about shaving has taken over like four feet of space and target they started as a DTC brand. But you know, I think small isn’t a big, big, serious fall. Have fun with that one. But like I think that was the thing I learned is that I could take these small brands strategies, help them apply, apply them to bigger brands, and get them super excited about that. And here’s the the one thing that was ultra exciting about that is that we could take some of those bigger brand budgets and apply those smaller challenger strategies to them and create a bit of jet fuel behind that success. So first, long I had the opportunity to work with I mean, World Expo and Dubai

had an opportunity to inform a bit of the strategy behind the brand launched with LeBron James Arnold Schwarzenegger, Lindsey Vaughn, and Cindy Crawford, and got found myself in this really like interesting brand strategy role along with marketing in those hallways, and that was great. Here’s the deal. I was in those hallways for a long time. And that’s not a knock against the the brand specifically this agency specifically I have good friends across the agency environment and the hours are not normal hours.

And a lot of that’s just because a lot of folks and agencies care and they care about those brands, they’re gonna they’re gonna put in the hours to make sure that they show up. It is a competitive environment. There’s about 15,000 small to midsize agencies in the US, there’s probably about 100 200 Omnicom level, broader, bigger agencies, and every one of them that I’ve, you know, that I’ve had the opportunity to interact with,

you know, in the trenches are all working dang hard. And I’ve got an amazing amount of respect for that. But to tee up the second part of that conversation, which is the transition of like, how to my version of success, my professional journeys been marked by my kids in a good way. But we got news at the 20 week appointment for our second kiddo, that she was going to be born with Spina Bifida. And there’s a lot of different types of spina bifida, hers was on the spectrum of good to bad or like menial to like, not,

hers is more on the not great side of things. So doctors looked at us in the eye and said, hey, there’s 80% chance she’s going to be born with some some level of cognitive cognitive issues and her hydrocephalus, she likely won’t walk. And, you know, it’s going to be a tough journey. And they asked us, they’re like, do you want to go on this journey? I was like, Are you asking when I think you’re asking like, yeah,

we’re in like, without hesitation, my wife and I like we definitely cried at the diagnosis, we had our moment. and work through that. And so we’re working through that. But we’re, we’re in, right, and I’m kind of all in or all out type of guy. And and, and so let’s see here tweeted, like 15 weeks later, 15 to 16 weeks later, she was a little bit early. We’re on the roller coaster wife goes and labor. We just seen we just been in for an ultrasound that day. So I saw me in the womb, the day she was born. And and I actually asked the doctors like, hey, real talk. If Jenny goes and labor tonight, what do I do like burden at risk category, we live 45 minutes from children’s, which is where the baby like person needs to be born with all the help and support available. Or we’re like 20 or 30 minutes away from you. And she was like, didn’t push it the extra 15 minutes, you’ll avoid being on a helicopter and your daughter will avoid being on helicopter, like and being separated from mom. And I was like, Yeah, well, like that sounds great. So literally that night, Jenna went into labor. It’s like 20 degrees out.

If you live here in Colorado, you appreciate this. But there’s a 470. And it’s a toll road. Thankfully, and and so I pushed it 115 120 miles per hour on that thing and made that drive in like 2530 minutes. And and Jenna was I won’t get into specifics, but she but she was it was it was time that Amy was nearly born in the car. So Amy was born, had surgery on her spine within 24 hours and then hung out in the hospital for another nine days. And my life changed forever. And the best of ways. And, and with that my career needed to change a bit too. But I knew that at that moment, you know, from a priority standpoint, in order, I wanted to be a great husband, and be a great dad. And if I had to be, quote, good businessmen.

That was okay, I’d rather be like, I’d rather not be a great businessman, and a good husband and a good dad, or maybe potentially bad dad because I don’t run out of hours. And so I reprioritize completely. And I don’t regret a single bit of that. But I was working 80 hours a week at the time. And I just literally just started working 35 hours a week and hit my numbers and doing my things and it became apparent that you know, I needed to be in the trenches, we all need to be working on those light late night pitches together, etc. And I wasn’t gonna be that guy anymore. And and so I just gracefully accepted stage left. And that was that was kind of our departure. And I don’t regret a bit of that because I think a lot of people would say hey, like pursue the thing hustle like I love Gary Vee, I’ve had the opportunity to meet him and talk to him about work life balance, and, and he he actually is an inspiration for me in the context of I’ve asked him point blank, I said, hey, what would slow you down? And he said, If I had a medical need, or if there was something going on with my family that required me to be home, I said, Thank you, thank you. I didn’t need his validation. But hustle culture can, I think get too turned up to too high. And so I turned my volume down. And that’s been a good transition for me on the back end of that. So that’s a bit long winded. But that’s that’s been my my journey. We can kind of end on the current chapter, if you’d like but any questions on that part of the journey?

Marc Gutman 39:55

Beau Haralson 40:12

Ferrari or no Ferrari, I’m plenty happy with that. And we’re moving the needle for folks and taking good care of our clients. And it’s just been great. So I think there was like a, how can we help kind of nature of that, or what’s kind of what’s what’s within that. So the business models pretty simple. Take care of a half dozen folks, we’re moving in the consulting with whatever extra hours we have. So we’re taking a group of clients that, quite honestly wouldn’t be initial great fits for our direct service model. And we’re gonna do some on ongoing coaching for folks that just need high level support, but have people in house to help execute.

So we’ll be unveiling that in the next probably 30 or 45 days. And we’ve built out some software in the background that helps people buy ads more effectively and efficiently, and took parts of Alex’s brain and a bit of mine and had that all coated up. And so we’ll be selling that software. Again, it’s just about replicating what you can and, and then we’re kind of in a mindset that if we don’t share some of the success that we’ve been able to create for clients, it’s actually been I mean, this was with no ego, but I had a good friend that was like, hey, it’s kind of selfish not to share, you should start sharing how you help people. And that will help other people help other people. And I was like, Great, yeah, you’re right, you win. So we’re kind of pivoting to like, actually starting to share some of the stories that have, you know, typically been hidden in conference rooms and boardrooms of, you know, fortune 100 companies. And I’m excited to start sharing that a bit more and sharing how to how to make that impact.

Marc Gutman 43:14

Beau Haralson 43:39

But I think I think he’d also say like, um, you know, everything in it season is probably a good way to summarize that is like, hey, like, that’s, that’s great young Bo, that you have this, these these, like, your heart is excited about these things. Because oriented, be it like playing outside, but like, I think I’ve come to this conclusion that like, everything has its own little season, like, you know, dumped on us this weekend. And people were like, do you go skiing? And I’m like, Nah, man, I was hanging out with a two year old, like, that’s fine. And I was happy to be.

So I think a lot of people want success now. And they define it in a certain way. But I think you can, you can do both. And I think you can be patient and have your definition of success in its own season. And I think to be patient and that and to be discerning in that and to readjust and calibrate for that is probably what I would say to the young buck sitting there with this yearbook open was just like, Hey, be patient man, and pursue things fully, but like Be patient and don’t pursue it all at once.

Marc Gutman 44:51

He was very humble and understated about all the brands he’s worked with, and his successes in the marketing space. Maybe we can get him back on the show for a round to brag session. There were so many nuggets in this one, but two that stood out to me. everyone finds their success in their own season. That is so true. And I think that if we just let that hang and resonate for a moment, you’ll feel how impactful that insight is. And the other big standout idea was that big brands really want to be like small brands, and small brands have all the opportunity is there adaptable and nimble. You hear that small brands go out there and kick some big brand but a big thank you to Beau Haralson and the Scale That team I love your order of priorities and it is inspiring to hear how our business lives can be prioritized if we only ask, can I delegate this, we will link to all things Beau Haralson and Scale That in the show notes. And if you know the guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstory.com. Our best guests like Beau come from referrals from past guests and our listeners.

Well that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can’t deny.

Aging.

Most of us try our best to slow it down.

But can you blame us? How do we learn to embrace our age in a society that trains us to want to feel 15 years younger than we are?

Tim Parr’s company, CADDIS, is challenging those standards and redefining what it is to “age” in contemporary culture. CADDIS has a refreshing take on aging, rallying around the notion that it is absolutely right to be the age that you are, and beyond that, they demand that you own it.

Tim definitely knows what he’s doing, but don’t take it from us. Brands such as Patagonia, L.L. Bean, Filson, Burton, and many more have trusted his methods and guidance on big issues that steer ships over long periods of time. He has also conducted lectures at the Stanford School of Design, the San Francisco Academy of Art, and the California College of Arts. Before CADDIS, it all began with the founding of the iconic bike brand, Swobo. We also can’t forget touring with Tim’s Bluegrass band throughout the Western US and how learning guitar was an essential influence for CADDIS’s messaging today.

This episode celebrates the irreverence of 80s Thrasher magazines and emphasizes selling the message more than the product (though this product speaks for itself! I mean, check out the top of these rims). You’ll learn lots about building a brand in this episode, but if you forget it all, make sure you remember this: The fun lies in changing people’s minds.

[0:02] I think developing some type of talent as you recognize your passions is super important. If you just blindly go after your passions, I think it’s a good way to get hurt.

[8:45] It felt punk rock. It was like, okay, we’re going after a taboo subject matter that freaks the hell out of people. That seems like fun. And we’ll create this house called Age and the reading glasses are the door prize. Join our club and here’s your badge, which became the glasses.

[12:19] The dusted over, unsexy categories? That’s where the gold lies.

[17:37] I attribute a lot of how I was wired to the early 80s, Thrasher magazine…I viewed that as communication. And it was visual communication in a way that was very new. It was that irreverent part that that didn’t really exist before that. It was irreverence meets punk rock meets some form of street culture, fashion, all wrapped up into that magazine.

[19:20] I remember going through old W magazines and Vogues and the rest of them when I was like 10 years old and just rapidly flipping through because I didn’t care about the content, I cared about some type of communication… At the time I just thought, what were the hidden easter eggs inside this medium, to where I can get knowledge of what’s happening?

[25:38] I don’t know if we go into it trying to be the cool kids. That might be a byproduct of it. Or a semi-intended consequence. I have to just think it just boils down to: it’s just more fun. And then when you really kind of peel away the onion on it, it’s more profitable. Because there’s less people doing it, which makes it a whitespace.

[48:12] There’s no easy path. It doesn’t matter what it is or what gifts you have, they’re all hard.

Website: caddislife.com

Instagram: @caddis_life

LinkedIn: Tim Parr

Facebook: @caddislife

Music Farming Nonprofit: musicfarming.org

Tim Parr 0:02

Marc Gutman 0:37

If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Does anyone really listen to this and review us over at Apple podcasts and Spotify? Probably not. So let’s get on with the show.

Today’s guest is Tim Parr. Tim has both founded new companies as well as worked for some of the most respected brands in the lifestyle industries, brands such as Patagonia or being filson. Burton, and many more have trusted his methods and guidance on big issues that steer ships over long periods of time. In his conducted lectures at the Stanford School of Design, the San Francisco Academy of Art in the California College of Arts. It all began with the founding of the iconic bike brand Swobo. And then, as Tim puts it, elevated the shoveling Yak manure with Yvon Chouinard, the Patagonia throwing some years as a touring bluegrass musician, and now he has founded CADDIS, the brand that will redefine what it is to age in contemporary culture.

CADDIS is a unique brand, because they’re making readers cool. They’re helping their community to own their age. And this topic is especially resonant with me, as I think about age. I have an ageing father. And that gets me thinking about my own age a lot lately. And the truth is, I’ve never felt the right age. When I was young, I wanted to be old. And as I get older, as we all do, I want to be younger. I think it’s about time that I hear Tim’s message and own my age. Maybe it’s a message you need to hear as well. Tim power has had quite a journey, always able to follow his passions and start businesses. I am fascinated by Tim’s outlook on brand and business and I know you will be too. And this is his story.

I am here with Tim Parr, the founder of CADDIS and Tim, let’s let’s get right into it. What is CADDIS?

Tim Parr 3:55

Marc Gutman 4:16

Tim Parr 5:03

So I was in a meeting with someone in San Francisco, at a at a venture capital place, and the person is, you know, going to the gym stood the product, and everything was lining up perfectly. And on the back of our packaging, there’s this quote, about aging, and just to own it, and they go, well, what’s this, and I had literally just slapped it on there in the 11th hour, subconsciously, it seems like a good idea at the time to call people out about how they think about aging. But But we hadn’t really delve into it. I go well, I just kind of think that people should own age. And they told me like, you can’t do that. And everyone wants to believe that they’re 15 years younger that they are, and this won’t work, you can’t do that. And meeting was over at that point, because of our position, which wasn’t even a position at a time. It was it was some flipping copy that I wrote on the back and had it printed on the packaging.

And then by the time I walked from that desk down to the street, it hit me like a ton of bricks. Like oh my god, like that’s what we’re doing. Like, we’re not in the reading glass market. Like there’s a whole much larger idea here. It was the first moment where I really found our why in our business, like why should we even matter? Like, why do we exist, and it feels just to cut different frames and put reading glass lenses in. It wasn’t enough. And then by the time I hit the street, it was I had it like that this is the business that we’re in, we’re in the business of owning age, just like Patagonia owns corporate stewardship, or, you know, Casper owns sleep or a way owns travel. Like we’re gonna own age. So that’s where it that’s basically where that’s where it came from.

Marc Gutman 7:58

Tim Parr 8:03

Like it was like, okay, we’re going we’re going after a taboo subject matter that freaks the hell out of people. Like that seems like fun. And we’ll we’ll create this house called age. And the reading glasses are the are the door prize? You know, it’s like, join our club. And here’s your here’s your here’s your badge, which became the glasses.

Marc Gutman 9:11

Tim Parr 9:17

Marc Gutman 10:11

Tim Parr 10:33

So it was the thing that when I got that response from that person, who is a venture capitalist, who you know, has a very conservative, you know, point of view about a lot of stuff. And if I could get that reaction out of somebody, I can get a different reaction out of a subculture. So if if that person was so against that idea, if something tells me inside of me, I could tap into a crew, that would be the Yang to that ying.

Marc Gutman 11:14

Tim Parr 11:19

Marc Gutman 11:53

Tim Parr 12:11

Marc Gutman 13:42

And to your point, I think, to me, readers just seemed like this thing that you did, because maybe you couldn’t afford glasses or like like, like it was like a stopgap or something. But that that’s neither here nor there. Was this how it happened? Where you were you you mentioned, you needed readers, readers standing there in front of the display being like this thing. This is this is just messed up.

Tim Parr 14:36

I’m like, I got this problem or I can’t see and like oh yeah, you reading glasses, pick a frame. And we’ll, you know, we’ll figure out what you need. And we’ll pop them in, we’ll send it to you in 10 days or so. All right, I guess that’s how it works. And I don’t know. But I started looking at the frames I want and there’s, you know, between 300-800. And then I had to wait like 10 days and long story short, I ended up getting nothing. And walking out of there just thinking something’s broken here. And I asked the guy in the story go like, Is it true? Like, either I’m spending $10 at Walgreens? Or I’m spending $400 here? And is that kind of it?

He goes, Oh, no, no, no. So he goes in the back of the store, pulls open a drawer, you know, it optometry store in Malibu, it’s just like, you know, like a beautiful merchandise thing. The readers were all crammed into a drawer in the back. And they’re like, purple and blue, and like cateye, and you know, they fold 800 different ways. And it goes, Well, you can choose from any of these. And, you know, those are like 40 bucks, or, like, really, like, That’s it, I’m going to put these things on my face. And that’s the spectrum of choice that I’m looking at. So it was like one of those classic situations where, you know, person needed thing thing didn’t exist, go make the thing that you want. So that’s, that’s basically how it all started, was from that moment, and then did some homework and you know, reading glasses 90% of people in this country will need them at some point over the age of 40.

Marc Gutman 16:39

Tim Parr 16:44

Marc Gutman 16:49

Like when you were a young, young kid, were you looking around the world and being like this, this is this isn’t working, or this is, this is what I want to do. Like, where were you like, as a kid, were you entrepreneur?

Tim Parr 17:37

Marc Gutman 17:48

And so I’m a big fan, so I can’t wait to hear where you’re going with this.

Tim Parr 18:15

And I remember my mom used to collect a lot of fashion magazines and I would do the same through those I’m or going through old, old web magazines and Vogue and the rest of them now has like 10 years old or something and just rapidly flipping through because I didn’t care about the content and I cared about some type of communication and like I would just I wouldn’t know it until I saw it and then I would see it and at the time I could just kill I just thought like okay, well what’s what’s talking what’s cool, what can I what were the hidden hidden almost like easter eggs inside this inside this medium, to where I can I can get knowledge of of what’s out. happening. And I put most of how I am from those early days.

Marc Gutman 20:07

Tim Parr 20:13

I mean, to this day, it’s probably why I started companies is so I can talk to people.

Marc Gutman 20:21

Tim Parr 20:37

Marc Gutman 21:24

Tim Parr 21:34

Marc Gutman 21:54

Tim Parr 21:57

Marc Gutman 22:02

Tim Parr 22:13

Marc Gutman 22:34

Tim Parr 22:37

Marc Gutman 24:22

Tim Parr 24:40

Marc Gutman 25:21

Tim Parr 25:38

But what is it about that? I have to just think it just boils down to it’s just more fun to write. And, and then when you really kind of peel away the onion on it, it’s more profitable. Because there’s less people doing it, which makes it a whitespace. So if you can, which makes your marketing cost lower, right. So if you’re not competing with it with similar messages, there’s less noise, therefore you can maximize whatever it is that you are saying. So I mean, that’s not anything that I was conscious of at the time. But in hindsight, if you’re to look at why would you do that, there’s economic reasons for doing it. And there’s reasons to do it. Because it’s, I just find it way more fun.

Marc Gutman 26:46

Tim Parr 26:51

Marc Gutman 26:53

Tim Parr 27:04

You know, but, uh, you know, it’s a fine line. And I think we had incredible respect for all the right things, and no respect for things that didn’t matter. So when if you were, so when we were do the trade show, I would have bank messenger from New York City, you know, let’s say 25 years old blue hairs, you know, piercings all over their face, holding up the same piece of clothing as like a 65 year old nostalgics skater or skater, cyclist, they could point to the same thing and go, that’s cool.

And I and that’s always been a goal of mine is is to make the product almost agnostic to the message, make the message be the product, and articulate that better than most. So, so so so that there is old school cyclists that really appreciated what we were doing, and respected the craft of the, of the merino wool and, and the heritage of it and bringing it back and caring about it. And then there is a kids in the streets that were stoked, because it wasn’t all, you know, super clean athletes that the sport was about.

Marc Gutman 28:33

Tim Parr 29:10

Marc Gutman 29:15

Tim Parr 29:16

Marc Gutman 30:09

And so as you’re as you’re building this brand, is your building slow, like, What’s going on there? I mean, did you know that? I mean it? Was it just a rocket ship from the beginning? Or were you?

Tim Parr 31:20

Marc Gutman 31:29

Tim Parr 31:32

Marc Gutman 31:35

Tim Parr 31:38

I would have. I mean, it was pain, like to liquidate, you know the brand when you’re young and and to take that one right in the chops, dealing with some unsavory invest investors. But come the end of the day, like we had a mission to change the way people thought about the bicycle. And I think we we helped in that in some way, shape or form. So it was a success. We learned a lot. It sucked in many ways at towards the end. But at the same time. I just I know it sounds cliche, but I just when seriously wouldn’t change a single thing.

Marc Gutman 32:43

Tim Parr 32:47

Marc Gutman 32:59

Tim Parr 33:03

Marc Gutman 33:36

Tim Parr 33:53

Marc Gutman 34:09

Tim Parr 34:15

Marc Gutman 34:46

Tim Parr 35:00

Well, I kind of wish that he was my partner, but he’s not really my partner. And then David Burns from the talking heads. I love that guy, too. So I wish he was my partner, but he’s not really my partner. Okay, I think it’s funny. They didn’t think it was funny.

Marc Gutman 35:58

Tim Parr 36:10

Marc Gutman 36:23

Tim Parr 36:26

And I just remember walking out thinking I’m done. And I remember reading this quote, which I thought is so brilliant. And it never occurred to me, but the quote was in order to do something different, you can’t do things the same. Yeah. So if I don’t want to do this anymore, like I need to stop doing this. Like right now. I can just stop and I need to do something different. And that’s when I stopped consulting.

Marc Gutman 37:31

Tim Parr 37:37

Marc Gutman 37:49

Tim Parr 37:57

Marc Gutman 38:36

Tim Parr 38:40

So there’s a strategy to learning something difficult, like acoustic guitar, you know, flat picking bluegrass, and, and you don’t want to waste time when you’re that age. So I did a lot of reading on how to learn and then got a really good teacher. And I was practicing six, seven hours a day and to get up to speed. But a lot of that process is is context for your this whole aging platform of what is now CADDIS. This is actually before CADDIS was even created. So it’s all it all kind of leads to where we are today.

Marc Gutman 39:51

Tim Parr 40:00

Which makes your your learning curve, do this instead of this, which isn’t 100% true, because eventually you do this and you plateau. And then you kind of need to find these incremental gains. But in a nutshell, it’s and this is complete layman’s terms, but it’s break things into small chunks. Don’t spend, you know, hours and hours kind of dwelling on IT spend like because your mind will wander, like spend 15 2030 minutes in a real deep dive, and then chill out and go do something else. And then come back to it and deep dive again.

Marc Gutman 41:17

Tim Parr 41:27

Marc Gutman 41:56

Tim Parr 42:11

Marc Gutman 42:34

Why?

Why do that you made the comment, I think earlier in our conversation that you probably really didn’t have to do this like this, you didn’t have to start another company. Sounds like that you had the ability to work for the family business and pursue your dream of playing bluegrass on the road. Like, isn’t that enough? Like why? Like, why start a company? You know, at this point in your life and what what you have going on?

Tim Parr 43:02

Marc Gutman 43:34

Tim Parr 43:40

Okay, so then I came home and told my wife what Scott told me and and I, what do you think she’s like, Well, what do you think? Oh, all right, let’s let’s do it. You know, because you got to have everyone on board because as we noted earlier, they’re hard and they take a toll on everybody. So kind of got the sign off on it. And away we went, but It was that feeling of, like, you can’t not do it. I was gonna say it’s just too late, like it got to be too late.

Marc Gutman 45:11

Tim Parr 45:15

Marc Gutman 45:18

Tim Parr 45:24

Marc Gutman 46:46

Tim Parr 47:07

Marc Gutman 47:36

Tim Parr 47:50

So, I mean, into right now, today, you know, the company is growing really fast. And we’re just, you know, we’re adding people at a fast rate. And, you know, the hardest thing is seeing it, it’s always been the same thing. And we are a remote business. So that’s part of the beauty. And the challenge is that we’ve always been a remote business. So So communication will always be a challenge. You know, how we move ideas around and get projects done. But I mean, in a nutshell, answer your question. I think they’re all just hard. And

Marc Gutman 49:23

Tim Parr 49:31

Marc Gutman 49:33

Tim Parr 49:37

Marc Gutman 49:42

Tim Parr 49:55

Marc Gutman 50:16

Tim Parr 50:24

Marc Gutman 50:28

Tim Parr 50:35

Marc Gutman 50:58

Tim Parr 51:11

Marc Gutman 51:18

Tim Parr 51:42

And the people that take selfies, you know, and are posting and saying that, like, I support this, you know, and without any prompting from us, I think it’s fantastic. It means that the, the communication is leaving, and it’s coming back, that it’s been received. And to me that’s like, I don’t care if I die tomorrow, like when people do that with our brand. It’s, it’s the Holy Grail.

Marc Gutman 52:54

Tim Parr 53:00

That’s a soft spot for me personally, what was happening, we’re growing so fast that that bucket of cash grew to a size that I couldn’t manage. So the idea is, okay, let’s pull it out of CADDIS create a separate entity to which other brands can contribute it into and we actually grow this thing where we can start helping people doing the hard work on the, you know, in the trenches, getting instruments, paying teachers, whatever they need, so that we can make make music education, something important again in this country.

Marc Gutman 54:26

We will link to all things Tim Parr, CADDIS, and music farming, the nonprofit Tim discussed in the episode in the show notes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at [email protected] our best guests like Tim, come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well, that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode I like big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can’t deny.

Ithaca Hummus. America’s fastest-growing hummus brand founded by Chris Kirby: CEO, trained professional chef, and mustache aficionado. Chris’s career identity began in the restaurant world before he gained the courage to declare that he had a different path to follow, and returned to school. It was a tough decision to make, but this pivot lead to Chris stumbling upon a certain, special chickpea dish that needed his help. Did Chris Kirby find hummus or did hummus find him? We may never find out. From here we learn about the birth of Ithaca Hummus, which shot from a farmer’s market stand to 7500 stores nationwide today using a small, yet big-hearted team of 8. We can’t wait for you to hear all about Chris’s journey to get here. Fair warning: After all that mouth-watering hummus talk, you may find yourself checking out ithacahummus.com/where-to-buy for your nearest retailer selling this delicious dish. We speak from personal experience.

[17:27] It’s almost like admitting failure, you know? Kind of like, “Oh, I thought one thing, and now, I don’t think that anymore.” And it’s not failure—it just feels like it in the moment.

[25:32] It seems so simple on its face, and it really is at the end of the day. But you know, sometimes those simple ideas are the ones that really have the most impact.

[29:43] I can’t remember a moment where I had any hesitation that I was going to throw myself full-fledged at this. I think in the beginning like what was so just fueling me was having something of my own for the first time and just being able to experience these little success points along the way.

[39:46] Our mission is to introduce America to its new favorite brand of hummus and we’ve got some proof points that we’re actually, really doing that. And I think that’s what gets us all excited on the team at Ithaca hummus is thinking about the success that we’ve been able to demonstrate on a mid-size scale, not full blown quite yet and dreaming about like, “Well, what happens when our distribution is four times the size that it is now?”

LinkedIn: Chris Kirby

Website: ithacahummus.com

Where to buy: ithacahummus.com/where-to-buy

Chris Kirby 0:02

Marc Gutman 0:44

Chris is a trained professional chef, and the founder and CEO of Ithaca Hummus, which is available in over 7500 stores nationwide. At the recording of this episode, back in 2013, Chris left his successful restaurant career as a chef to go back to college. And this is where it dawned on him. hummus needed his help. And he got to work perfecting a simple lemon garlic hummus recipe. and a month later he was selling it at the Ithaca farmers market on the weekends. And Chris’s story is one of the entrepreneurial dream of taking what you love and finding a way to make a living at it. As you’ll hear, I’m not sure if he found hummus or if hummus found him. But what Chris did find was a way to take something that already existed and make it better. And that’s what being an entrepreneur is all about. He made it so much better, that he and the team if the gothamist are now shipping approximately 30,000 containers of hummus per week. That’s a lot of hummus. But Chris Kirby didn’t always know the hummus was in his future. And this is his story.

I am here with Chris Kirby, the founder and CEO of Ithaca Hummus, Chris, thank you for coming on the show. So appreciate it. And like let’s hop right into it. You know, I normally have a big dossier of questions for you. But as I was doing some pre show research I was on your website and most intriguing to me is your own bio on the website and a couple things that really stood out to me You say you’re a ping pong champion. I’d like to hear a little bit about that. Chef Pitbull lover, but more importantly, mustache. afficionado. Tell me a little bit about that. Like the word is becoming a mustache afficionado come from

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Chip on your shoulder about beets or just to show people that they can be a good ingredient or something like that?

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This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again, in this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach [email protected]. And we’d be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show.

Why hummus? Like why did it Need help? Like what don’t we get? Because I go to the market and ton of hummus. There’s other competitors out there like what did you see?

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A big thank you to Chris Kirby and Ithaca Hummus team. We can’t wait to see you become the number one hummus brand in America and then the world. We will link to all things Chris Kirby and Ithaca Hummus in the shownotes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at [email protected] our best guests like Chris come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can’t deny.

Baby Got Backstory host Marc Gutman partners up with good friend and past guest Jay Ferracane on a special bonus episode about the complexity of defining yourself as a storyteller based on the video, You Are Not a Storyteller by Stefan Sagmeister.

[10:26] There is a fallacy that people think, “I have a conversation with you and I come back a week later, and you give me this thing that will be on a gas station, billboard, or on a wall.” And to me, it’s iterative. It’s a narrative. And that was the only thing I can start to think of why we’ve gotten into this thing called storytelling, because we’re trying to let people know that it’s not completely defined. And it’s going to be a journey.

[13:28] What is the function of design? A lot of times it’s to communicate. It’s not to be seen, it’s not to be noticed, but it’s to communicate. It has a very important job, but is that storytelling? Is wayfinding, storytelling?

[14:58] I don’t think even all stories have reasons, because sometimes they can be whimsical, right? Maybe that is the reason.

[18:26] I think even we get conflated a bit when as branders and marketers we say, “Okay, well, it’s the sum of all these parts, it’s your visual, it’s your tagline, it’s your copy on your website. It’s all this and then now that’s your story.” But is it?

[19:13] The cool thing about building a brand for me and developing the branding is that all those signals, all that stuff gets set up so that those stories can happen in there. But that’s all the people interacting with it. So if anyone is a storyteller in a brand, it’s usually the people that support the brand. It would almost be the customer, right? It’s pretty meta, actually.

[19:49] It’s the external world. You can tell all the stories you want about yourself, but it doesn’t really matter what you think. It’s what everyone thinks about yourself.

You are not a storyteller – Stefan Sagmeister

Instagram: @angrybovine

Facebook: Jay Ferracane

LinkedIn: Jay Ferracane

BGBS Episode 41: Jay Ferracane | Angry Bovine | Design Is Not About the Designer

Jay Ferracane 0:02

Marc Gutman 0:48

My good friend, Jay Ferracane and I talk a lot about different branding topics, marketing topics all offline when we’re just hanging out. And one of the things that we got written a lot about was storytelling, and kind of this craze about what’s happening with storytelling, and everyone’s calling themselves a storyteller. And then Jay turned me on to this amazing video about two minutes. And we’re gonna link to the audio in this episode from a famous designer named Stefan Sagmeister. And after that little video, and Stefan sets the stage, Jay and I talk about what it means to be a storyteller. And I hope you liked this episode. It’s a little bit of a bonus talking about a topic that’s near and dear to my heart.

I am here with Jay Ferracane celebrated designer, creative and all around awesome dude. And recently, Jay and I were doing some work together and Jay turned me on to this idea or this this video of Stefan Sagmeister that’s titled You Are Not a Storyteller. Before we get into that, because I just I love this video, we’re gonna watch it and then talk about it cuz I think it’s really relevant, two minutes of extreme relevance, Jay, who is Stefan Sagmeister? Because I don’t even know like I, I watched this video and I’m like, Who is this guy?

Jay Ferracane 2:41

But Stefan Sagmeister, and his partner, Jessica Walsh, who now runs her own outfit, she still continues, but I think Stefan does more of this kind of like, personal work kind of stuff. But pre that that was this video that I was sharing with you. Because, I mean, we’ve all heard it in conversations that, you know, everyone wants to be a storyteller. And, you know, what’s that really mean? And should you say it, and I look at myself as such a, I don’t know, like a tradesperson in design that. I’ve never considered myself a storyteller but it did me a stroke, it struck a chord with me and why people say that, and a lot of times, I think as a designer, my job is to unpack what people are really trying to say, or what’s the reason behind that. And I have some thoughts on why people get into the storytelling, if they use storytelling as a way to describe their process or what they’re attempting to do. So.

Marc Gutman 4:11

I don’t know if I’ve landed I firmly believe that as—the way we communicate as humans is through stories, does that make everyone a storyteller? Especially when it comes to business, right? Like, is everyone a storyteller? And so what I want to do is I want to go ahead and share this video. It’s two minutes, and we’ll go ahead and watch it together. And then we can talk about it.

Jay Ferracane 5:02

Stefan Sagmeister 5:09

No fuckhead you are not a storyteller. You’re a rollercoaster designer. And that’s fantastic and more power to you, but why would you want to be a storyteller if you design rollercoasters? Or if you have storytelling that the story that you tell is bullshit. It’s like this little Itsy Bitsy little thing. Yes, you go through the space and guess you see other spaceships and yes, that’s the story? That’s a fucking bullshit story. That’s boring.

People who actually tell stories, meaning people who write novels and make feature films don’t see themselves as storytellers it’s all the people who are not storytellers, who kind of for strange reasons, because it’s in the air, suddenly, now want to be storytellers. There is this fallacy out there. I don’t think that I fell in fell for it. But somehow, maybe unconsciously I did, you know that you sort of feel “I’ve seen a lot of films, so I must be able to do one.” And of course, this is the most stupid thought ever, you know, it’s like, “Oh, I’ve watched the Philharmonic. That’s why I am a virtuoso violin player.” You know, I’m not, even though I’ve watched a lot of philharmonic concerts, I think by now in our space, meaning in the space of design, it sort of took on the mantle of bullshit. You know, now everybody’s a storyteller.

Marc Gutman 7:04

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Jay Ferracane 7:27

Number one, there’s so many, I think there’s so many options for clients out there today, that everyone’s got to wrap themselves up in something, right, we all kind of do that take on a persona or two. But I think that this storytellers thing was a phenomenon that came out of not unlike, like, I purposely went against the grain when people were there. For some reason, there was this weird fear of like calling yourself a designer, I’m a graphic designer, that’s what I was formally trained to do. And I think that makes me a pretty capable communicator. But it does give me a position of where I enter communication from.

And I think storytelling maybe puts this this number one, it puts a bigger umbrella on it and allows people to be more capable, or at least position themselves that they are more capable, because they don’t have to really describe what their entry point is and where they’re coming from. But to the point of, you know, when he was saying, this, this fact about like, I can, you know, if I watch an opera, am I a virtuoso? there is so much information out there in education today that you can watch a video and go out and tell people, you know, something. So I think that what he was probably sensing was some frustration and i would i wonder, actually, how, how close this was to him thinking about, you know, leaving professional practice, because he maybe he was just like fed up at that point. Because that dude, and his outfit did really just great, creative, very original, graphic design. And, you know, maybe he was just, like, frustrated at a point like, I’m not going to be, you know, shielded about this anymore. The more I thought about it, though, and it was funny because you and I have talked a little bit about this and the phenomena of and there are some outfits that work this way, but the phenomenon that work, like a project is something that might have been called the story to be told. You know, in the Stefan Sagmeister, I hate you world. I think there’s this notion to that a lot of people think that the project is this, it’s dropped on the table, and this is one thing I’ve been thinking a lot about knowing you and I were going to get together and talk about this, but does this when you start to say, Hey I’m a storyteller, Is that a way to prepare people for the reality of a design process?

And I call it a design process, going through a logo, there is a fallacy that people think I have a conversation with you and I come back a week later, and you give me this thing that will be on a gas station, billboard or on a wall. And to me, it’s iterative. It’s a narrative. And that was the only thing I can start to think of. Is that why we’ve gotten into this thing called storytelling, because we’re trying to let people know that it’s not completely defined. And it’s going to be a journey. And so let’s call it a story and follow us on this journey or this story. I don’t know that I’ve been dwelling on that actually quite a bit in the last week or so. Because, well, you and I both know, the reality of making anything is never airdrop it into your clients lap. At least it’s not in my world. It’s a lot of back and forth. And, and the story gets written together, if anything, but to me, I’ve always wondered is has storytelling become this thing? Because people are trying to explain, like, you’re gonna have to get involved in a narrative. I don’t know. Maybe that’s where it comes from. But, yeah.

Marc Gutman 11:20

And much like a classic pianist or something like that I was trained in classic cinematic storytelling, which means that there’s a three act structure beginning middle and an end, a likeable, or at least, intriguing hero that has obstacles in their way and has to move from something they want towards something they need, all these things. It has a very strict definition. And I remember when I got into branding and marketing, and I had the same reaction as Sagmeister, I was like, This is crazy. Everyone’s calling themselves a storyteller. These are not stories, and I was really myopic on my definition of story.

Now I’ve since come off that and I learned, I’ve learned that storytelling has this different sort of definition. And I think, when I heard you speaking, that’s really what I started kind of going through, like, what are these definitions of story versus storytelling versus narrative? I mean, is the roller coaster designer really trying to tell a story? Are they trying to communicate, communicate anything other than thrill and excitement? And, you know, things like that? So? Yeah, I mean, and you and I have had this conversation offline, so much about just what is the purpose? What is the job? What is the function of design, and a lot of times it’s to communicate, and it’s not to be seen, it’s not to be noticed, but it’s to communicate as a very important job. It is that storytelling? like is Wayfinding storytelling?

Jay Ferracane 13:44

Marc Gutman 13:45

Jay Ferracane 13:58

And I don’t think even all stories have really because sometimes they can be whimsical, right? Maybe that is the reason. But I remember seeing this talk if we’re going to kind of Sagmeister was an early design hero of mine and so was David Carson. And I saw David Carson do a talk once about it was, oh, he showed this layout he did for a conference he got asked to attend, it was called the bravery of design or something like that. And it was the image was his father, who was a test pilot getting into an aircraft. And he goes, and he basically put that up, because he goes, what we do isn’t dangerous. He goes, unless I’m designing like, pharmaceutical packaging, or something where if somebody reads it wrong, there’s a problem, right? And he was saying that that’s fucking dangerous.

And he pointed at his, you know, his dad in the 60s, or whenever it was getting into a, into an aircraft. And, and I do, I just think that there’s something that I think people feel like they need to inflate around what it is they’re really doing. And that’s why I really do look at what I do, it’s much more like a trade than it is art, for sure. And even the way I approach it, it’s like, I’m going to show you some things, but you’re going to react to them, and then I’m going to catalyze those back into it so it becomes the things you need it to be. It’s not about me. And so a lot of times storytelling is is like, your take on something to it has a very emotional bent. And, you know, that’s a major difference between art and design is that you know, art is really about you trying to express some personal feeling or emotion where design should really really—it’s it can have expression in it, but it’s really about communicating ideas or information.

And so storytelling does, it gets cloudy, but maybe it is a safety mechanism for people to just shield up like, Hey, I don’t–I was a marketing manager a long time ago, but all of a sudden, here I am, you know, trying to help you rebuild your brand. And if I tell you that where I came from, that’s it. That’s a hard entry point, right?

Marc Gutman 16:55

And you and I have collaborated recently on a bunch of identities. I mean, those are really stories. You know, when I think about them, they’re like, you know, there’s we want certain emotions, we want you to think of certain categories. We want you to see this and say, Okay, this is a tool brand, for example.

We’re not really telling stories within that work, and I wouldn’t, and I think that’s okay, like, we don’t have to like that’s not the intention or the purpose. And I think even we get conflated a bit when as branders and marketers we say, Okay, well, it’s the sum of all these parts, it’s your visual, it’s your tagline. It’s, you know, your, you know, your copy on your website, it’s, it’s all these and then now your that’s your story, you know, but like, is it?

Jay Ferracane 18:45

Brand is the promise you want to you know, bring to the world. Branding is the signals that get them there. And you know, in this in this case of like, you know, when we work on identity and stuff like that, I think we’re we’re way more in the signal building camp. Because the I that the cool thing about building a brand for me and developing the branding that will do that is that all those signals, all that stuff gets set up so that the stories can happen in there. But that’s all the people interacting with it. So if anyone this is interesting that we’ve talked this out a little bit, but if anyone is a storyteller and a brand, it’s usually the people that support the brand, it would almost be the customer, right? It’s pretty meta, actually.

Marc Gutman 19:40

Jay Ferracane 19:45

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Jay Ferracane 19:57

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Jay Ferracane 20:01

And so I think whenever these labels come out, it’s just a way, it’s just a way for people to soften, or create a softer landing place for you to understand where you come from. And well, you know, my, my, my love of music and the background and the things that I grew up around was like early punk rock, especially DC kind of stuff. And in those days, you didn’t go to the, you didn’t even go to tower, you would have friends that gave you like cassettes that were made off of cassettes that were made off of two other cassettes.

And I remember every once while people would like hold the microphone to like the TV and record stuff into it, I still, to this day, don’t know where this soundbite came, but it’s this very posture-y kind of voice it was in between one of the songs that was on this mixtape given to me. And the guy says, I have news for the world. And he says new wave is dead. And it says new wave is just a way of saying that you like any names, all these like sub genres of music that was extremely not popular at that point. And then he ended it with like, these categorizations of all these music types, that people wedged them under a new wave. And he said, it’s because you don’t want to get kicked out with a party because people won’t give you drugs anymore. And so like, but it was kind of funny, because if I if I think about that, that’s probably this defense mechanism that all humans are do a lot.

They they put some falsehood around themselves, or at least a softening device. So that either you can’t really assign what it is and or you may be reassign it, and it’s it’s a funny, it’s a funny thing. And and I think that’s that’s, you know, not me ever asking, you know, Stefan about this, but like, I would bet his intent is is call it what it would call it what it is, and just be authentic about it. Because to me, that’s the best form of graphic design and is when you can, like, make the brand with the things that it really is. And that’s not necessarily storytelling. To me. That’s this very, we were just talking about this before this call started ingredients and parts.

Marc Gutman 22:40

Jay Ferracane 23:13

Marc Gutman 23:14

Jay Ferracane 23:40

Marc Gutman 23:42

Jay Ferracane 24:24

Marc Gutman 25:19

Jay Ferracane 25:25

I would rather people say I’m a communicator than a storyteller because that is kind of what we do. I think it’s, it can be super boring shit sometimes and not that there’s not boring stories, but at least it has less of a mantle around it too

less of a mantle of bullshit.

And he has that. That [inaudible] and like, [inaudible]. Like there was a [inaudible] in there for a second.

Marc Gutman 26:21

Jay Ferracane 26:23

Marc Gutman 26:23

Jay Ferracane 26:37

Marc Gutman 26:48

And that is Jay Ferracane. And that was us talking about storytelling, all based on the Stefan Sagmeister video. I love that he kind of goes on that rant about someone who designs roller coasters as a storyteller, but I think you’ll agree it’s become really, really confusing. I hope you like this little bonus episode. And if you want more of this type of content, drop us a line at wildstorm.com and let us know that you like these type of episodes just as much as of our traditional interview.

Well, that’s the show for today. Let me know if you have any questions. I’m Marc Gutman, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS. See you’ll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie, you other storytellers can’t deny.

Tamer Kattan is an internationally touring stand-up comedian who performed for U.N. Troops in Afghanistan, for protestors at the American University in Cairo (during the Egyptian revolution) and for the really dangerous crowds at The Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland. He’s won many comedy accolades over the years, has TV & radio credits on the BBC, SkyTV, Fox, HULU, Netflix, Amazon, and truTV, and was even featured on Seth Rogen’s Hilarity for charity event with Todd Glass and Hannibal Bures. Tamer is currently the co-host of Nice2MarryU on Youtube and you’ll learn in this episode that before it all, he began his career in advertising and worked with past guest Shawn Parr from Bulldog Drummond as a brand strategist.

Tamer is an Egyptian-born American with a Muslim dad and a Jewish mom. Always bearing many identities, Tamer has considered himself a “hyphenate” and finds solace in being neither part this nor part that, but a complete thing in the middle—although it wasn’t always that way. Growing up in Southern California, Tamer needed to address how people treated him for being different, and comedy was his tool to do so.

He finds the connection between comedy and branding is human nature, which can only be tapped through aggressive listening and captivating storytelling. That same humanity and emotional intelligence are what motivated Tamer to write his resume on a foam butt, pop it in a donut box, and rocket launch his advertising career until he found his way back to his roots in comedy. Above all, Tamer teaches us the power of making other’s feel heard, which bears the question, how will you listen more aggressively today?

[10:59] I’m not American. I’m not Egyptian. I’m this thing in the middle, and being an Egyptian American is very much another thing. It’s a thing into its own. I’m not half of this or half of that, I’m a complete thing, and it happens to consist of two halves.

[14:51] It’s not like I wanted to be funny, it was just a thing that happened. Inevitably it ended up becoming a tool against bullies, but I didn’t realize it until this kid came up to me—it was a bully that bullied me every day—and finally, one day, I had enough and I started making fun of him because he had pretty big ears. Apparently, he was sensitive because he said, “Hey, if you stop making fun of me, I’ll stop beating you up.” And that’s why I went, “Oh, wow. Comedy is powerful. It can be powerful.”

[49:36] I think being a good listener makes you a better storyteller. And I love being able to listen aggressively until I hear things and see things that other people don’t see. Like in my comedy, the thing that brings me the most joy is not when people laugh, it’s when people say “Oh my god, that’s so true.” That’s my favorite.

[54:07] I think that’s what it means to be a human being. We’re parts of multiple tribes and multiple groups. And I think if you break the ridiculous stereotypes, people become people again.

LinkedIn: Tamer Kattan

Instagram: @tamerkat

Twitter: Tamer Kattan

Youtube: Tamer Kattan – Nice2MarryU

Website: tamerkattan.com

Tamer Kattan 0:02

So because it was around Halloween, I went into this Halloween shop and they had those foam butts that you could tie around your waist and make it look like you have a naked butt. And I wrote my resume across the butt cheeks. And I wrote Cal Poly senior willing to work as a software internship. And then I went to a donut store and bought a pink box for $1 it was such a ripoff. And then I put it in the box and I mailed it to Shai a day. And three days later, they called me and asked me and I heard that the HR lady kept the butt on her wall for like a year.

Marc Gutman 1:00

Before we get into my conversation with Tamer, If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify and apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend the show to at least one friend you think will like it, and maybe one enemy will like it too. And cross the aisle in a bipartisan effort to bring all podcast listeners together via the Baby Got Back story podcast.

Today’s guest is Tamer Kattan. Tamer is an internationally touring stand up comedian, who performed for UN troops in Afghanistan for protesters at the American University in Cairo during the Egyptian revolution. And for the really dangerous crowds at the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland, where he received three four star reviews from international press. He was most recently featured on Seth Rogan’s hilarity for charity event with pod glass and Hannibal Burress won the World Series of comedy, comedy knockout on true TV, best of fest at big pine Comedy Festival, and three weeks later won the Portland Comedy Festival. He is the co host of Nice 2 Marry You YouTube, and has TV and radio credits on the BBC and sky TV in the UK as well as in the US on Fox, Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, and Tru TV.

He’s also worked as a strategist at some of the world’s biggest and best advertising agencies in Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York. And what you’re going to hear today is there’s probably not a whole lot that Tamer really can’t do or isn’t good at. And I was connected to Tamer via a previous guest on the show, Shawn Parr of Bulldog Drummond, and no disrespect to Shawn, but I wasn’t clear on why he thought I should talk with Tamer. Well, Shawn’s a smart guy, and Tamer, Well, I’m going to save that for today’s show. What I will say is I’m crushing hard on Tamer. He’s smart. He’s worked at the coolest agencies on the biggest brands in the world. He left it all behind to pursue what really made him happy. Stand up comedy. Tamer drops all sorts of insight and wisdom in this episode, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Oh, it makes sure to listen for the your dog is sticky story. I loved it. I’m excited to introduce you to Tamer Kattan. And this is his story.

I am here with Tamer Kattan. Tamer actually happens to be in Spain and I’m in Colorado and even though we’ve been doing this for decades, at this point talking over the internet, I’m still amazed that this works in real time and that we can do this it’s like still blows my mind, but that’s true. Tambor, welcome. Welcome to the Baby Got Backstory Podcast. It’s, it’s great to have you.

Tamer Kattan 4:45

Marc Gutman 4:51

I love comedy, but I was actually introduced to Tamer through a, another brand professional. Shawn Parr over at Bulldog Drummond. And interesting enough, Tamer got his start as a brand strategist. And so, Tamed, I’d love to get into that a little bit. But like, more than that, I want to know, you know, when you were young was little Tamer, were you like, was it like almost like the two you know, the two little angel devil on the shoulder was like one of brand strategists and one a stand up comedian or like, would you want to be when you were a kid? Like, like, like, did you do you think you’d end up here?

Tamer Kattan 5:53

And I see the big umbrella is storytelling, and I see brand strategy and, and comedy, both fitting under that larger umbrella. So for me, it wasn’t that different. You know, it’s like being a wrestler that becomes a UFC fighter. It sounds like two different things, but they’re kind of related.

Marc Gutman 6:48

But where did you grow up? Like what was what was childhood like? For you mentioned that you had this bifurcated family? And you never really fit what we’re we’re where’d you grow up? And what was that like? Like what your parents do and stuff like that?

Tamer Kattan 7:34

So I was I was born in Cairo. And when I was around six, my dad left the states. And at eight years old, we reconnected in Los Angeles. So I grew up for the most part in Southern California. And the first place we live was a very Mexican neighborhood in East LA, which was the best place an immigrant could start in America, because they were very accepting. And they said, Hey, you look like one of us. You got pyramids, we got pyramids, youre in.

They accepted me. And then from there, you know, it’s really strange being an immigrant, sometimes you get to experience society in a different way. Because you you start at maybe a lower socio economic class than you’re used to in your home country. And then you kind of move pretty quickly, vertically up sometimes, maybe, maybe do more jumps than you would have if you’re a native born person. So we had a pretty interesting view of America at a pretty early age.

Marc Gutman 9:27

I remember being like I’m not Jewish and like hiding, you know, like From fights and stuff like that, and but that, you know, that didn’t matter to the to the the kids that wanted to brand me with that label. I mean, was it hard for you like being irreverent and also just trying to figure out what your identity was? I mean, I think it’s cool now to be like, yeah, I’m like, that was split. That was awesome. But at the time was a hard.

Tamer Kattan 10:20

So I took so much emotional abuse, that I finally built a callus, which I welcomed with open arms. And once that callus was there, then I learned to embrace the fact that Yeah, I’m not American, I’m not Egyptian, I’m this thing in the middle. And being an Egyptian American is very much another thing, it’s a thing into its own. I’m not half of this, or half of that I’m a complete thing. And it happens to consist of two halves. But it took it took a lot of a lot of crappy things heard a lot of racism a lot of, and not just from Americans, from other Egyptians, from Jewish people from from everybody. So it was a it was a wild experience.

Marc Gutman 11:28

Did you like was there a big Egyptian community in Southern California? Were there I mean, I, I spent a lot of time, you know, I lived in Santa Monica for a while and things like that. And I just don’t, I don’t ever remember it. So like, and I could just be because it’s just, you know, something I’m not looking for. But was there? Was there a big Egyptian community when you were there?

Tamer Kattan 12:10

Marc Gutman 12:44

Tamer Kattan 12:56

I really got into Dungeons and Dragons at a really early age. So my, my, my vocabulary of weapons, and monsters and mythology grew. And when we started writing, for this creative writing class that I had in elementary school, the teacher called my parents at home and said, Hey, I need you to come in, we have to talk about Tamer and about the stories that he’s writing. And they came in, they say, and he said, Look, I love these stories, but they’re a little bit violent. And I’m, I’m either gonna see his name on the front of a paper at the end of a movie, and I wanted to make sure that it’s the ladder. And but he didn’t know about Dungeons and Dragons, and that’s why I knew so much about weapons is because that’s silly game.

Marc Gutman 14:11

Tamer Kattan 14:41

Marc Gutman 15:25

Tamer Kattan 15:34

So in the neighborhood I lived in, we had Hello cat, there’s my cat in the background. We had, we played the dozens. So it was a pretty poor school. And we had a 10 minute break before lunch called nutrition, where the government would give you milk and trail mix. And I was always just people would jump on me during those sessions and start just making fun of me and sort of attack me with words. And you know, just like with any other type of battling, the more you get beat up, the better you get on the offensive. So I just naturally became pretty good with words.

Marc Gutman 16:49

Tamer Kattan 16:50

Marc Gutman 17:06

Tamer Kattan 17:25

So I went with him. I watched the reel, and there was so many funny commercials. And you know, and she kept talking about the woman, Nancy Ali, I still remember her name. so crazy. Nancy Ali said that comedy was most disruptive form of storytelling, because you didn’t need to know anything. You could watch a stranger fall down. And it’s funny. But if you’re trying to do a drama in 15 seconds, good luck. So I watched that reel. And I was impressed by it. And I thought to myself, Oh, wow, here’s where to get paid for being funny. And I went up to her and I spoke to her and I said, you know, my major is not marketing she was doesn’t matter. I recommend you buy this book called inventing desire. And it was a book where a journalist actually lived in the offices of Shai a day, at the time was just one office, but it’s an amazing office. And I literally borrowed four more dollars, so I could buy the book that night. And I read it in one night and fell in love with the idea of working in an ad agency.

Marc Gutman 19:39

Tamer Kattan 19:42

And I remember I did the craziest thing, it was around Halloween. And I heard that they got something like 400 resumes a day for internships, and I wrote a resume through a typical template. And I looked at it, I’m like, This is absurd. I just have skate shop and surf shop experience. Why am I even setting this to an ad agency? So I said, Well, if I can’t show my creativity through the experience that I’ve had, maybe I can shoot show it, and how I expressed that experience. So because it was around Halloween, I went into this Halloween shop and they had those foam butts that you could tie around your waist to make it look like you have a naked butt. And I wrote my resume across the butt cheeks. And I wrote Cal Poly Sr. willing to work as asof for internship. And then I went to a donut store and bought a pink box for $1. It was such a ripoff. And then I put it in the box and I mailed it to Shai a day. And three days later, they called me and asked me and I heard that the HR lady kept the butt on her wall for like a year.

Marc Gutman 21:10

Tamer Kattan 21:12

Marc Gutman 21:13

Tamer Kattan 21:14

Marc Gutman 21:16

Tamer Kattan 21:42

So they they primed me to interview with Richard O’Neill, who is the executive producer on like, the George Orwell spot, 1984. And I guess, he said, I refuse to accept an intern here who’s not in film school. And so they basically told me, you’re gonna lie, you’re gonna say that you’re in film school. And I remember like, being like, Oh, my God, I can’t lie. I was a kid. And I’m like, Can I lie to this man, but they told me you’re gonna lie. And if you have to go to film school aid, and we’ll send you to film classes at night, but we want you here, you want to be here. This is the this is the last gatekeeper. And we’re going to tell you what you need to do to get the job. And yeah, it was pretty wild.

Marc Gutman 22:40

Tamer Kattan 23:15

Marc Gutman 24:13

Tamer Kattan 24:25

But then I’d go up to the the guy who was the video editor at the time it was on an avid system, you know? And I’d say, Hey, can I go to lunch with you? And can I buy a piece of pizza because it’s all I could afford, you know, and, and ask you about editing? And I think that they were, it’s so funny because it’s such a simple thing. And I remember as a kid looking at this grown man, and going, Oh, he, it brought him joy, that I took a real interest in what he was really passionate about. And I remember feeling off balance a little bit, that I was this young guy that kind of touched this older person, it was sort of a role reversal. In my mind, I thought, so I think I didn’t have the sexiest job, but because I kept because I stayed passionate the whole time, because I didn’t let the menial labor, get me down. And I ended up getting hired after the internship was over. And then, you know, I immediately was working on Nissan Gatorade, you know, zema at the time, really big stuff, like really big, high profile accounts. And even though I was, you know, the tiniest, the tiniest part of the totem pole, it still felt great to see my fingerprint, you know, on on these things.

Marc Gutman 26:15

And so I knew a lot about it, but it was just crazy. And so but I also, you know, I had a similar experience. And then I was a young person living in Santa Monica and living in California. And it was tough. You know, it was expensive. It was competitive. Like, how did you fare like, I mean, you loved it, and you’re working on these accounts, but like, how are you getting by? Because I’m guessing they’re not paying yet?

Tamer Kattan 27:11

Marc Gutman 28:09

Tamer Kattan 28:48

And I remember the day I quit, there was a woman named Elaine Hinton, who is the vice president of broadcast I’m not sure she’s still there. And she was an amazing woman. And she basically looked at me and said, Are you crazy? What are you doing? And I said, I’m going to Hawaii. She goes, you’re leaving shy, dare to go to Hawaii to paddle canoes. And I go, you know, I gained weight. I was sitting in these cold editing rooms. It just, and I wasn’t I didn’t know how to pace myself. You know, so I burned out. And I left I went to Hawaii, and she tried her best to, to put some wisdom in me. But it was it was the right thing for me at the time.

I ended up working at Shai de two more times in the in the future. So I always went back. I still I just spoke to rob Schwartz the other day, who’s the chief creative officer at Shai day in New York. Well, Ashley is the first creative that became a CEO of Shai day. And, you know, we still talk, you know, and he, I retweeted a post and he said something like, once a pirate, always a pirate, you know, and it felt great, you know, because shy it was more than an agency for me, it became a part of my identity, you know, as did Bulldog Drummond when I worked with Shawn, you know, he was definitely another sticker that I had in my suitcase, a big one.

Marc Gutman 30:30

Tamer Kattan 30:38

Marc Gutman 30:59

Tamer Kattan 31:03

Marc Gutman 31:05

Tamer Kattan 31:08

Marc Gutman 31:52

Tamer Kattan 31:54

Marc Gutman 32:07

Tamer Kattan 32:11

Marc Gutman 32:15

Tamer Kattan 32:19

Marc Gutman 32:32

Tamer Kattan 32:41

I’d rather say, Okay, I’m not a strategist, yet. I don’t have experience as a strategist. But what I do have is a tremendous amount of experience and action sports. And so even though I’m not a strategist, I have the type of instincts and understanding of the culture that drives these categories that you’re I don’t care how British the strategist is. I don’t care if he went to Harvard. He doesn’t know more about skateboards and surfboards and the community than I do. And that’s the way that I positioned myself. And Shawn ended up hiring me to pitch Airwalk. And at the time, Airwalk was pretty big business. And I remember when we wrote one that pitch, there was an article that came out and they referred to us as you know, David and Goliath, the little agency that beat all the big agencies.

Marc Gutman 34:13

Tamer Kattan 34:29

Marc Gutman 34:32

Tamer Kattan 34:39

Marc Gutman 34:45

Tamer Kattan 35:02

Marc Gutman 35:02

Tamer Kattan 35:08

Marc Gutman 35:18

Tamer Kattan 35:33

Marc Gutman 36:40

Tamer Kattan 36:45

Marc Gutman 37:49

And then So at what point, you know, you mentioned that you were bestowed the title and I have a very similar I remember, like, my very first jobs, I was a story editor and you know, to studio, it’s a really big job. But when you’re a production company, it means a lot of different things. And I was way over my head, you know, I was doing, you know, script analysis, but also picking up dry cleaning as well. And, you know, at what point did you actually feel like you were a brand strategist, you know, versus having that title,

Tamer Kattan 39:18

And there’s a moment during focus groups where moderators come into the room and ask the people behind the glass, do you have any more questions you want to ask? And when the moderator came back, I kept watching the people, because I was interested. And when I was watching them, I noticed people showing each other pictures, and they were pictures of their dogs. So I said to the moderator, Hey, can you ask how many of them are dog owners? And he looked at me and said, What? And I’m like, I’m just curious, the number of people that buy SUVs, I’m curious if they’re dog owners, so he went in and asked me was something like seven out of 10. And we were like, Whoa, that’s a pretty big percentage. The next group was only five. But then the next two groups were like eight and nine out of 10.

So then we did it. It was like a survey monkey thing where we quantified it and said, Well, we have something there’s something really interesting about there’s definitely a correlation between people who buy SUVs and people who are dog owners. So we approached Mitsubishi and said, Hey, you know, you’ve got competition with all your competition when they create packages for the various SUVs, they’ve got technology packages, they’ve got luxury packages, they’ve got all these different sort of pack, but nobody has a dog package.

And and there were these Japanese business guys are pretty intimidating to pitch to. And they started clapping. And it just, it made me it just tickled me man, I was just in one of them gave us this Hunter S. Thompson quote, he said, I don’t believe the truth is ever told between the hours of nine and five is what people connect between nine and five was certain things in common. But the things after five o’clock are stickier. So and your dog is very sticky. And it’s more sticky than these other things. And I was like when you had the guy on the brand side, convincing his own team of the inside. I was like, Okay, I’m proud of myself. I get myself pat on the back on that one.

Marc Gutman 41:59

Tamer Kattan 42:13

And then my dad passed away. And when my dad passed away, I had this really weird moment where I realized everything that I was doing was to try to make my dad proud of me. And it was the first time where I said, Well, what makes you happy. And I’d never really done that. And I sort of had this big cleansing period where I stopped drinking, I started, I learned how to learn Transcendental Meditation. I just kind of grabbed the steering wheel back. And, and I was, you know, I was shocked that, you know, 3940 years old, I’d never really known what makes me happy.

What was the driver for me? And so I ended up saying, hey, I’ve always wanted to do comedy. And, but I was afraid to do it, to be honest, because comedy for me was an identity. You know, and I really didn’t have that I was always not fully Egyptian, not fully American, not fully Jewish, not fully Arab. But I was funny, and everyone agreed I was funny. So I was afraid to try to be a comedian. Because what if they told me Oh, you know what, we are also not funny. And then I would have just been floating in space. So I didn’t know what I was going to do.

But I had a friend of mine who ended up marrying Dick Van Dyke. Believe it or not, she’s a girl. She was my girlfriend in high school, and then fell in love with Dick vandyke. And now they’re married couple, and there’s, they’re amazing together. But her brother and I were both the funny guys in high school. And she bumped into me at a supermarket and said, Hey, john is doing stand up. Do you want to go see him? And I’m like, Oh, my God, are you kidding me? And I remember getting really excited at the thought of someone so close to me performing stand up comedy. And not only was he good at the show, he blew every other comic away. And at that point, I thought to myself, well, if john is that much better than everyone else, and john and i were the funny guy In high school, if I could just be a little bit if I could be even close to as good as he is, I, you know, this will be fun. And I didn’t think it was gonna turn into anything else. I thought it was just going to take one class and get on stage once and have it be a bucket list thing that then professional comedians started approaching me and saying, Hey, you got something. And I did the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland. And I won Best New International act under two years and had a manager assigned me and I came back to the states and quit my job and advertising and sold my house and sold my car and moved to England and lived in a box for four years doing stand up.

Marc Gutman 45:38

Tamer Kattan 45:40

Marc Gutman 46:19

Tamer Kattan 46:49

Even if it’s digitally lead, it was really hard for them to embrace strategy. So it was a hard job there. Especially as you know, you get the title of change agent change agent. And you think it’s nice, but people don’t like change. And so I had a tough time going into an office where I felt like a lot of people didn’t like me, and then going onstage at night. And I had people coming up to me and hugging me and saying, Hey, you know, your joke about child abuse, my dad beat me too. And then I get a hug from a guy that looked like he was in Sons of Anarchy. And I’m like, Hey, this is really spiritually spiritually fulfilling. And so it was a pretty easy decision at the end.

Marc Gutman 48:33

Tamer Kattan 48:38

You know, like, I think women have always been told to, to grab on to intuition. And men have been told that we don’t have that. And women grow up with these impossible physical standards. And then men are told things like, boys don’t cry. So we have impossible emotional standards. And I think I saw how much that hurt me when I was younger, to not talk about problems to not, it feels. I like being an observer. I think being a good listener makes you a better storyteller. And I love being able to listen so aggressively, to listen aggressively. Until I hear things and see things that other people don’t see. Like I in my comedy. The thing that brings me the most joy is not when people laugh. It’s when people say oh my god, that’s so true. That’s my favorite.

Marc Gutman 49:58

Tamer Kattan 50:11

Marc Gutman 51:05

Tamer Kattan 51:15

It also taught me a lot about human beings. You know, like, I thought I really understood America because I worked at these ad agencies in New York and Chicago and Miami and LA. And I’m like, Oh, I know America. And I didn’t, until I became a comedian and started going to Little Rock, and and you know, Wichita, Kansas, and, and then I started doing America. But it’s, I also realized, I remember going on stage one night and getting booed really badly, because I was introduced as an Arab comedian. And then I thought to myself, you know, and the owner of the club said, Listen, I’m really sorry, we have good people here. We have bad people here. But sometimes we get bad people. And I understand if you don’t, if you want to leave early, and I’ll pay you for tonight, and I’ll I’ll feel the other night. And I, he goes, I’ll let you think about it. And I said, Okay, and I went home, and I said, No, I’m not, I’m not gonna quit, because that’s not right. And I said, I don’t like the way I was introduced. So let me manage this. Right.

And I remember my grandfather used to say this thing that I had above my desk at my ad agency, which was listening is the cost of being heard. And so I needed to show them that I would, that I listened I needed to show them. And if they think that I’m on their side, then I’m going to be different than the Arab that they perceived. So I told the guy don’t say I’m an Arab, just introduced me as a guy from LA. So he did. And when I went up on stage, I said, Hey, this is my first time in Oklahoma, Oklahoma City. I’m on site. This is a really beautiful place. It’s really pretty here. And I didn’t know because people in LA talk a lot of crap about you guys. Did you guys know that? And they’re like, yup, yup. And they started agreeing with me. And I’m like, That’s crazy. How could they talk? And this guy said to me, You, if you’re gonna go to Oklahoma, you better watch out. They’re really racist over there. And I’m like, you mean, they’re gonna judge me without even knowing me? And he goes, Yeah, I’m like, wow, you ever been to Oklahoma? And he goes, No. And I’m like, What an asshole.

And the whole audience laughed, and they all clap their hands. And at that point, they owed me. I stood up for them when they were the minority. I was in the big city, defending a small town from big city people. So then when I became an Arab in front of them, they started managing themselves. When somebody tried to heckle me, it was another person at a table next to him to say, Hey, man, shut up, let him finish. It was great. And I think I think that’s what it means to be a human being. We’re parts of multiple tribes and multiple groups. And I think if you if you break the ridiculous stereotypes, people become people again.

Marc Gutman 54:17

Tamer Kattan 54:32

Marc Gutman 54:33

Tamer Kattan 54:44

Marc Gutman 55:11

Tamer Kattan 55:17

Like even my profile was like, oh, I’ve been single this long, because I’m selfish. I used to have a drinking problem. I miss on that I basically did the opposite of what everybody else did in their profile. And then she sent me an email back that mimicked what I’d written about all of her flaws, and it became like a game with us. And so then I fell in love. And the laws had changed in Barcelona, and I already had COVID in March, and I had papers saying I had the antibodies. So I had this window to fly to Barcelona. So I flew in. And then when I got there, they changed the law when I was in the air, and they put me in jail in the airport, and I had to spend the night in jail. And she was 500 feet away from me. And we didn’t meet and they flew me back to America.

And I’m like, I’m not giving up. And then we did a bunch of research and we found out about Gibraltar, just tiny country that’s on Spanish soil, that kind of UK property sort of, and they were allowing Americans in and it was also like the Las Vegas of Europe. And so I flew in there we met there, and I brought a ring and asked her to marry me that first time I saw her and she said Yeah, we got married. It’s been six months and now we’re in Barcelona until COVID zoning we’ll figure out what we’ll do next.

Marc Gutman 57:21

Tamer Kattan 57:51

Marc Gutman 58:23

A big thank you to Tamer Kattan and Shawn Parr for the intro. I’m sure it comes as no surprise, but I’m a huge Tamer fan. And I’m guessing by this point, you are too We will link to all things Tamer Kattan, his website his YouTube show his socials in the show notes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wild story calm. Our best guests like Tamer come from referrals from past guests and our listeners.

Well, that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can’t deny

• In most of Mike’s workshops, around 80-90% of participants begin the session believing they can’t draw. His goal is to make these same people confident in their abilities by the end of at least an hour.

Andy Starr is a provocateur in the niche landscape where education, business, and brand co-exist. He sees the value in being different and finds comfort in creating change. Even as a kid, he liked being the black sheep. He didn’t identify with the lead singer in a band or the striker making goals in soccer, he always wanted to be the drummer in the back or the goalie with a different uniform.

With 17+ years of agency experience, Andy continues to move the needle forward with co-founder/brand master Marty Neumeier, as they educate leaders in the evolution of brand within business through their platform, Level C. You’ll learn that Andy believes in more than just using strategy to sell. He believes in people, storytelling, and provoking emotion. Andy believes that provocation can be good and different can be important, inspiring us to ask ourselves how can we each embrace our differences to provide value to the world.

• Andy considers himself to be a provocateur in the professional education space. To him, this means being different for the sake of being valuable.

LinkedIn: Andy Starr

Instagram: @the_andy_starr

Level C Website: levelc.org

[15:55] Different matters because we think that there’s something in it for us. Whether it’s noticing something different, or acting, feeling wanting to be different, there is a perceived payoff to that. When I realized that, when that was revealed to me and for me, my whole perspective on everything changed.

[19:25] I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. Even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the guitarist, or the lead singer, or the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that I felt in my chest, in my gut.

[51:56] What we’re trying to do with Level C is we’re trying to put in, or depending on your perspective, restore the role of brand into the C suite. To restore the role of brand into a position of influence on the business side, a position of relevance to the business and the consumer side…to influence the way people think about this stuff. And we believe that when they think about it, when they learn, and they think, and they process, and then they practice, real change can happen.

[53:01] We’re not looking to change the world. We’re looking to change a part of business because we do believe that if you change business enough, then the world can be changed.

Andy Starr 0:02

Marc Gutman 0:54

I’m Marc Gutman, and on today’s episode of Baby Got Backstory, we are talking with Andy Starr, co founder and partner of the brand education company Level C. And while I have your ear, if you’re listening, I’m assuming you like our show. And if that premise holds true, then please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend you think will like it. If this is your first time listening, please consider subscribing. It is your subscriptions that make this show possible. Alright, enough of that stuff. Let’s get back to the show. Andy Starr’s bio describes him as a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand. And while that is a super cool bio, I think he’s so much more than that.

Yes, he’s a provocateur. But he’s also a thought leader, an empath, an educator, an entrepreneur, a brand nerd, a people person, the partner to branding legend, an author, Marty Neumeier. I hope I can call him a friend and he calls me the same. But if you ask Andy who he is, he’ll probably say none of all that and simply tell you, he’s a musician. With 17 plus years of agency and in house experience across multiple categories of client business, including special focus on nonprofit and higher education. Andy is equal parts strategist, creative manager, and storyteller. I first met Andy is one of his students via the Level C program.

Level C is an education platform. They’re a company and a certification focused on all things brand. I’ve personally attended, and surprisingly, graduated both levels one and two. And all I can tell you is that there’s something special about what they are building. How Andy sees the world. In his relationship with brand Master, Marty Neumeier. Andy is an accomplished brand professional in his own right. And well on his way to becoming a brand icon. Just don’t tell him that. And this is his story.

I am here with Andy Starr. He describes himself as a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand. He is also the co founder and partner at Level C and we’ll talk a bit about that. But Andy, what is a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand?

Andy Starr 4:20

So, you know, and that is that is where we find ourselves, you know, at the intersection of business and education. You know, education is a business, I’ve had several education clients, universities and colleges that that refuse to acknowledge that they’re a business at the end of the day, that makes my job as a brand provocateur more difficult. So when Marty and I started this, I was just like, let’s just call it what it is, let’s let’s, let’s not gloss, spin, blow smoke. Education in business is where we are. It’s what we do. And it’s what we’re looking to transform, you know, then leave leave, leave the bullshitters to play in other spaces that they just make up, or that they they ignore. So that’s, that’s my jam.

Marc Gutman 6:00

Andy Starr 6:19

Most people don’t. But access, quality of content, relevance of content, applicability of concepts, that needs to change. And we’re not proposing that we, we are like the savior of education, we don’t think that we’re the savior of professional education, we want to, we want to practice what we preach and live up to what we believe. And so when it comes to professional education, we want to keep it focused on you know, we’re not branding and marketing and sales and advertising content and social media. rebrand, and we’re not, we don’t want to take a how to brand approach to education, we just want to say, here’s how you think about education, right? So when we think about our academic perch, we’re not giving people prescriptions, we’re just giving them food for thought. Okay, but that’s not really out there.

There are people who do it, you know, there, there are outlets, there are providers that do it. But there are fewer and farther between. and at a higher academic level, like MBA programs, there are really no MBA programs that talk about brand. If you want to find brand and Wharton’s MBA program, you have to specialize more focus in marketing, you have to take marketing courses at Wharton. And, you know, hopefully you hear about brand at some point, but they don’t talk about how to think about brand. That’s just a loose example. So it’s a big mountain to climb, dude. And Marty and I care very much about education, I especially care about education, my professional background and my family’s background. I have educators in my family, my father was a professor, my grandfather was a university founder, he fell, he co founded a university and was an academic dean. And it’s, I just care about it, it just matters. And so that’s the space we want to play in.

Marc Gutman 9:07

Andy Starr 10:20

Those questions, raise 1000 more questions. So it’s, it’s complicated. It’s it’s super, super tricky. But, you know, another thing about relevance is, and this is something that we, we’ve actually tackled in our first level masterclass. For the teams that worked on higher education as a category to disrupt, right, we’ve heard things about kind of the cadence, or the formulaic structure of education, and this is something that Marty feels especially strong about, traditionally, is and even today, kind of the model of education is, you know, at that at the college and beyond level is like, you study theory, right? You spend four years, two years, you know, three years unless you studied theory, and then you go out in the world, and you learn gain us skills, right? But while you’re studying that theory, it’s like, What am I supposed to do with this? How does this how does how is this theory relevant to the world that I’m about to land in? Or that it’s about to fall on me one way or another? How do I how do I survive just with this theory?

And so you know, there’s one school of thought, that says, you know, learn the skills first, and then continue lifelong learning and learn that theory, have a greater appreciation, a better ability to think critically and analytically. Right. But the flip side to that argument is, well, that’s what a liberal arts education is in liberal arts teaches you how to think critically. And analytically, you’re reading about history and philosophy, and literature, you’re not doing that just for shits and giggles, right, you’re not doing it solely to feed the ego of a tenured professor, although that that is part of it. It prepares you for a world that is constantly evolving.

A world in which the kind of one career from start to finish doesn’t exist the way it used to, with a few exceptions. And you have to be able to think critically and analytically so that you’re flexible enough to kind of jump from one chapter of your career to the next from one role to another, from one category to another, and in some cases, making a complete career change from one to another. And I did that, right. And so we’ve altruistically, we sleep very well at night. Because we know that what we’re doing is righteous, it’s self righteous, we want to make a valuable contribution in this space. But at the same time, it’s not that we’ve set ourselves up for failure is that it’s a huge mountain to climb, and we will most certainly never get to the peak of it. But that’s okay. That’s okay.

Marc Gutman 14:17

Andy Starr 14:21

Marc Gutman 14:25

Andy Starr 14:46

Marc Gutman 17:23

Andy Starr 18:28

I was in soccer. I’m still a soccer geek. I played soccer since I was three. Well, when you’re a kid, everyone wants to be the striker the forward who scores the goals. I never did. I wanted to be the goalkeeper. Why? Because the goalkeeper got to wear the different shirt, the gloves. And the goalkeeper was always either the hero if he made the big save, or the goat, the bad goat, if he if he botched it and let a golden so drum, you know, the drums and being goalie in soccer. To me, they were always the same thing. All the glory, if you got it a complete, you know, complete disaster if you fuck it up. And for me, there was never I was never satisfied. I never enjoyed To me, the middle ground was boring. It was uninteresting. It’s like it was like, it was just nothing and I wanted nothing to do with it. And so my parents encouraged me to play soccer. And as a kid, they wanted me to have nothing to do with the drums because to them, the drums weren’t a real musical instrument playing the piano playing the guitar playing, you know, the violin or or saxophone. That was fine with them.

Uh, playing drums wasn’t and I didn’t get to play drums until I got to college. And when I did, I mean, I remember the first time I did it, and that actually changed my life more than almost anything. Because I felt like I was meeting myself and meeting the person I always wanted to be for the first time. Do you remember that day? I totally I, I remember the day I decided no matter what I was going to find a drum set and teach myself. And I remember, I remember the day that I sat down behind a drum set with drumsticks in my hand for the first time. Absolutely. I remember my first gig. And it was all my first my freshman year and it changed everything. It literally changed the trajectory of my life.

Marc Gutman 22:04

Andy Starr 22:08

And he said, “Yeah, here’s the room on campus where they’re stored. Here’s the code to get in play anytime you want.” And it took me like another week to work up the courage just to go and do that. And I had no idea what I was doing. There was YouTube didn’t exist. So I couldn’t watch videos on how to do it. But I had a pair of drumsticks that I had, you know, come into my possession along the way. And I sat down. And just for some reason I knew what to do. And it was it became addictive. And I played my very first gig with people a few months later, he had heard me practicing and they wanted to know who was playing. They said, You’re really good. What do you want to jam with us? And that and that first gig, I remember the songs we played, was like it was just, it was transformative. And that’s so that’s what I wanted to do for a long time. I wanted to just be professional musician. I went to music school after college. I wanted to be in a rock band. That’s what I wanted to do.

Andy Starr 24:29

Marc Gutman 24:34

Yeah, so what happened?

Andy Starr 24:35

Marc Gutman 25:09

Andy Starr 25:12

Marc Gutman 25:44

Andy Starr 26:14

But things happen professionally with our business and with the economy at the time. And we were professionally we were the victims of fraud. And when that happened, my dad basically lost his business. And I kind of lost a pathway, if you will. And I was very angry, like ferociously angry. And I wanted revenge. And I applied to law school. And I got in. And so I was prepared to do that. And at the time, I was I was in a relationship with a girl and she worked in she was a graphic designer. And she worked like in advertising. And her father was kind of a big name in branding in the branding world. And she she kind of had her own little consultancy, and she would kind of come home from the day and I was trying to study the law. And she was complaining about her clients. And I found myself talking with her about her clients. But I was talking about it from a strategic standpoint, not from a design standpoint. And I found that I was liking that a whole lot more than studying the law between that and her father kind of encouraged me to pursue that and not to pursue the law. And I got out of the like I left law school before it was too late. And I’m really glad I did. And I started kind of doing this loosely with her still not knowing really what Brandman still not really knowing that advertising was like a whole like industry and thing that I could go do professionally.

And then one night she suggested that I read a book about branding. And it was called the brand gap. And I had never seen a book like it never heard of the author. But I started reading it and next thing I knew it was the next morning I’d stayed up all night reading it. I just couldn’t stop and that experience was probably the other thing that changed my life trajectory. Right? It I just I saw and thought now is the thing I thought about everything. I thought about business I found about people without ever having had any grounding or experience in the concept of brand and literally overnight. I knew exactly what Brandman and from from that point. I knew not only was this interesting, and that I wanted to try it I knew that I could be really good at it. I just knew that I could. It all just made sense in it in some ways. It filled in some gaps for me It helps me think about myself and where I had been in why I was the way I was right and why I am the way I am so it just when that happened when she put brand gap in my hand like that was it. Everything became crystal clear. I ended up stalking Marty for a long time. Like I stalked him online. Found him he was at his his old agency new neutron. And I emailed him and I was just like, hey, read, you know, read the brand gap, I think you’re a genius, this is what I want to do, will you be my mentor, please, I need a mentor. And I joke about it, but he basically sent me like a fuck off, I’m too busy email, he didn’t use that language. But he that was basically what he was saying.

But I didn’t care, I kept sending him messages along the way, when I would get my first agency gig when I would get my, you know, produce my first you know, copywriting project, I would just send stuff to him just to see what he would say. And occasionally, he would respond with looks good, keep it up, you know, kind of your, your, your packaged, automated response, right. But I started to try to demonstrate to him that even though I didn’t have the experience in the portfolio that a lot of other players in the space had, I thought about it differently. And I thought about it at a much higher and deeper, more impactful level. And he started to respond to me. And at one point, he invited me to come to France to a private workshop, and he was holding with, like, you know, executives, and like super high level designers. He’s like, come to the Chateau. It’ll be for a week, and you’ll, it’ll be crazy. It’ll change your life. And I didn’t go. And it’s like the one regret I have professionally. Like, I didn’t go to that. But, you know, fast forward Six years later, and look at what I’m doing with him and of all the people in the world who could be doing this episode.

Marc Gutman 31:37

If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we’d be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show.

Crazy, right? And so like six years ago, you have no should I say resume or credential? in this space, you decide that? It’s your calling, and it hits you. And how long before like Marty starts to even like, respond to you and you build that relationship. I mean, you kind of jump but I mean, how long are you like sending him like, Hey, I’m still here messages like, hey, like, I, you know, respond.

Andy Starr 33:07

So it was about three years ago, I had gotten tired of the agency world super tired of it. And I left and I was working at a startup. And they were the startup work in the event space. And they they they were an event business and they had physical space. And they wanted to kind of rebrand themselves, but they also wanted to evolve their product offering. And I started talking with the CEO and we were coming up with ideas of you know, how can we make this event space because at the time, like that was like super commoditized right? And we work was the was becoming the 800 pound gorilla, right? And so there was this idea of using this existing space not just for corporate meetings and events but for education and to come to To fill the schedule, with gurus across different disciplines, leading workshops, that was already happening, but here was a space and we could kind of reposition this business around that.

Well, that was cool. But that wasn’t wholly unique. And I had this idea to go one step further and find like high level gurus who are already delivering workshops and educational content, and to kind of bring them into this mix. And to do that in partnership with a local business school like a local MBA program. And the idea would be that the MBA program would underwrite a certain of these workshops, right? And allow participants to not just take the workshop, but to earn academic credit towards that schools MBA, that wasn’t really being done anywhere, by anyone or any school. And so we decided, like that was, that was a cool idea. We wanted to change it. But we had two challenges. We had to find the gurus, but we also had to find an MBA program willing to do that. So we chased the MBA program first, because to me, that was going to be the bigger lift. But fortunately, a local Philadelphia MBA program, and we had a connection, we had a meeting, we had, we made a proposal to the dean, and we said, let’s just give it a shot. Let’s do a one on one professional Ed, you know, adult education workshop in a specific topic that we all agree on. And the MBA program will give or make credit available. Let’s just see, the dean just was like, Okay, done. Let’s try it. Okay. And when we were walking out of the conference room, someone said, by the way, what’s the topic? And who’s going to be the subject matter expert?

We didn’t know. And I literally just blurted out, how about brand branding that’s relevant to business. And no MBA program really offers that. It’s a great, great idea. And who will lead it? And I was like, there’s a guy who wrote some books. And they said, Great, set it up. And then I so then I sent Marty an email for the first time in years. And I reminded him who I was. And I told him, here’s what we’re doing. Here’s what we want to try. We want to try it with you. And I really didn’t expect a response. I got a response in like 30 minutes. And he’s like, let’s talk and Marty doesn’t like to like do things by email, or by phone, he likes to Skype, or he likes to see you. And I was like, Oh my God, I’ve never done that before. I’ve never spoken to him Skype, whatever, we set it up. And we set up a 30 minute kind of intro. That’s what I thought it was going to be. It was like a two and a half hour like, thing back and forth. And my entire team was like, behind my laptop, like, like listening. And I’m just jamming with Master. And he said, like, in his entire career, people have come to him with ideas and wanting to partner and said, this was the best idea that anyone had brought to him, like better than lynda.com wanting him to like come in and do that better than LinkedIn learning, wanting him to come in and like be exclusive is like this was it. Okay, crazy.

Fast forward a little bit. We were getting everything set up the MBA, there was a problem with the MBA program we pulled out. And then the the startup just it wasn’t it wasn’t working. They wanted to go in a different direction. They weren’t funded properly. And so I bounced, but Marty and I kept talking, we would email and kind of we started asking ourselves like, what if, like, how about, you know, could we blah, blah, blah. And one day, he just said, Look, if they weren’t willing or able to do it, why don’t you and I just do this ourselves?

Why don’t you and I just try it? Okay, I flew out to Santa Barbara. He invited me to his home.

We locked ourselves in his home studio for like three or four days. And we went through our own process that we teach. We did it on ourselves. And we had this thing basically, in the can, like before I left. And here we are. Yeah. And so

Marc Gutman 39:30

Andy Starr 40:17

Except for one copy. There was one copy that was all just beat up and folded and and there were rabbit ears, and there were little postage sticking out of it. And I thought like, that’s really weird. Like, why is that up there? like is that his copy? Was that like a is that a first edition? Whatever, I take it down. I’m looking at it. And I’m just, I’m holding it in my oily, you know, hands. And I’m just what is it? And he walked out of the office for a few minutes. And that’s when I was doing this. And when it comes back in, I just turned to him. And I’m like, what’s the story with this book? Because it’s not pristine, like sentimental value. And he’s like, Oh, look at the cover. And I looked at the cover and it said Steve’s copy hands off, and I’m like, I don’t get it. Who Steve and he just so nonchalantly says well, that Steve Jobs copy. I was like what I’m holding Steve Jobs copy of the brand gap beat up folded marked, you know, rabbit ear, you know, notes, you know, that for me? Was that was another thing like, this guy wants to like be my partner. He wants to do this with me. And that would that’s that was really kind of like the first time with Marty that I felt way out of my element. Like, this should not be me. I’m not I’m I should not be the one to do this. It made me It made me like nervous. I was like genuinely, like, kind of out of sorts about it. And then we sat down and started going, you know, through the thing, and I’m kind of a control freak. I like to be in control when when I know what I’m doing. And I feel confident about what I’m doing. I can I can drive the train.

And I was just like, no way. I was like, dude, you’re in charge. Like, you lead the way. I’m going to follow I’m going to do this with you. But like, you know, Master apprentice, you know, Jedi Padawan like I’m totally okay with that. And when we started going through it, I thought I knew things right? You know how like, you can read the books and you can have your successes and you can have your confidence. You You think you know your shit, right? You know, I know all my rudiments on the drums and like, you know, I’m pretty decent drummer. But then you meet like a real German you’re like that cat is just a bad fucking dude. When when we kicked it off that morning, I was just like, Whoa, and I regret not like recording the entire thing for posterity. Because it was that bad. It was that like, Oh, alright, so this is what this is what it’s really like when the master does it.

And I mean, like, the whole thing was like a learning experience. And I was like, I was drunk by like, the end of the first day.

Marc Gutman 44:19

Andy Starr 44:30

I just had the luxury of having it one on one in a very intimate setting. Right. That’s, that’s the thing about Marty, I’m just an app, and look at the space we work in, look at how much bullshit there is. I mean, I’ve worked at agencies, and I’ve worked with people who literally have this philosophy that we are in the bullshit business. Right. And that’s hard. That’s hard to swallow, right? For me, at least. And to realize and then experience that the mass the guy who wrote the book, The master himself, is completely, I mean, completely anti bullshit. I was I was just like this, this is just too good to be true. just too good to be true. But it’s not. It’s just too good.

Marc Gutman 46:34

Andy Starr 46:48

I don’t see the weird thing is, it’s not that I’m uncomfortable asking that. I just don’t know. It’s not I’m not the type of person who typically answers that. I would say, I think one of the things that makes me a good partner is that I take it, it’s because I follow some of the some of the advice that I and guidance that I try to contribute to others, including, I take it seriously. But I’m not too serious about it, I think I have a very healthy idea of what matters and what doesn’t. For myself, for Marty, for us, and for our tribe. I’m very patient. And I think I think I’m hyper patient. And I’m, I am, I am extremely passionate about what we’re doing. And I know that sounds that may all sound cliched, but one of the things I’ve learned is that, if that’s not if that stuff isn’t there, it doesn’t really matter what you’re doing, right. And the last thing I want to do is be a hypocrite and I couldn’t really live with myself, if people thought that I or Marty or we were hypocrites and what we what we preach what we teach. So I think that from what I think for money, I’m also a balance. You know, we talk about personality types and, and roles. And I think that Marty and I complement each other really well, there are things that he can do that I can’t, and I don’t want to try, there are things that he can do that I can do that I just don’t want to do that I don’t like to do, or that I’m just not very good at. And there are ways that he thinks that I don’t where I can. And I would say the flip is just as true. And I think that we balanced and complete and round each other out really well like that, you know, like looking at it from 80,000 feet.

He’s a creative and a designer and i’m not i’m a strategist, right? He’s He’s strategic. I am creative, but we kind of we recognize where we belong, and we recognize our lanes. And he’s not as territorial as you. Some people might expect him to be. He is and on all things creative. I defer to him. And he he, I think for him, I’m also going back to the word, you know, going back to the label provocateur, I’m more provocative than he is. I am, I think I’m definitely more brash, I’m a little more raw. And, and maybe he likes that because he doesn’t need to be that anymore. He doesn’t want to be that anymore. Maybe it’s just not enough, you know him. But I think we just we just complement each other really well. We look at the world basically the same way. We never really had an argument about anything. We have disagreements, but we’re both patient enough and I am super respectful of his seniority to me.

Super respectful, and I value that, and I want him to and I tell him I want him to be the master, not just for others, but for me too. And, and allow me to learn while we’re doing this. And I have every time he and I jam on something, I learned something new, which is bananas. And I think all of that makes me a partner that works for him with him. And he’s had partners in the past, I’d be curious to hear what he thinks of me as a partner. But that’s the thing, I’m not going to let my ego get in the way I want to know. And I want to be a good partner going forward. And even when he takes a step back, and I have to decide how Level C c kind of moves on, I’m going to want other partners, and I want to be a good partner for them.

So you know, but I hate talking about myself that way. Like, I hate it. Good question, though.

Marc Gutman 50:56

Andy Starr 51:09

You know, there are a lot of people that believe that, you know, brand is a part of marketing. And we believe that you know, marketing is actually a part of brand. And that’s a red herring, I definitely don’t want to go down, go down that path here. But we want to influence the way people think about this stuff. And we believe that when they think about it, when they learn, and they think and they process, and then they practice, real change can happen. And you know, here’s the thing, we don’t we’re not trying to change the world. We’re not maybe we’re one of the few brands out there that is comfortable saying that we’re not looking to change the world, we’re looking to change a part of business, because we do believe that if you change business enough, then the world can be changed. So that’s what we’re trying to do. We’re, you know, we’re creating an army of people who who get this stuff, right. And maybe army isn’t the right word. Maybe tribe isn’t even right, the right word. We’re just recreating it, we’re creating the opportunity for people who work in this space, to get it, evangelize it and bring the rest of us forward.

Marc Gutman 53:40

How do you feel about politics, you know, in by asking the brand that they want information that it’s that well, it says like, well, then if you feel this way, then I feel this way, it’s a direct reflection. And I think there’s just this crazy thing happening and I don’t know if you’re seeing that if that’s if that feels new to you, but like this idea that like, even the brands I work with, they’re like, Well, what do we say like how do we act you know, and now it’s a bigger conversation because you know, we can get into like values and your beliefs and you know, hold true to those but I just find this, this kind of forefront of brand and the way people are looking to brand to to comment on the world so that it tells them how they feel about the world. Just this, you know that and I believe in that, like, how the customer felt about the world was it seemed to be that like it was, it’s been like that for a long time. It’s like the subtext. It’s like, it’s like, like, what am I? What’s my status? Or like, how do I see myself? But now it just seems like way more overt and direct in terms of like, what people are demanding from brands in terms of worldview?

Andy Starr 55:19

It’s not so much that they care about Warby Parker’s stance that is that this is what I’m just speaking for myself what I believe, I don’t think it’s so much that they care about Warby Parker’s stance, I think it’s Warby Parker’s stance helps frame a little bit more of the context for themselves. How where do they see themselves in relation to Black Lives Matter and Warby Parker and apple and Nike and Starbucks and Virgin and pick a brand? Right? Because really, really, at the end of the day, do you think that people really give a shit about most brands? I don’t. I don’t. I think that brand loyalty is almost like a misnomer. Like, do I love my iPhone? Yeah. Do I love my Apple watch? Sure. Do. I love my MacBook Pro? Absolutely. And my loyal to the Apple brand? No, I don’t care that much. I just don’t care about me. I care about my friends, my family I care about my community. I you know, I care about who’s at the top of the barclays premier league table. I don’t really care about Apple’s brand. If I hear that Apple has a position where has done something that I don’t agree with? Does it anger me annoying me? piss me off? Yeah, it does. But mainly just because I wish that they could see it the way I see it. But I don’t I don’t.

I don’t look at it the way I know a lot of people look at it. You know, when I have a client and they, they they’ll ask me, you know, how should we respond to this, I’m always going to tell them the truth and not my truth. But what I strategically believe, is best for the business and the brand. And that’s always a tricky kind of gray area. But I just I just don’t think people care. I I struggled to believe that people genuinely care. And people may say, I really care. And they may they may believe that they may feel that way. And I and I, I won’t disrespect or deny that that happens. I won’t. But I think deep down maybe you know, it’s it’s more ID than ego. I don’t think it matters to them as much as it’s been made out to. Okay. But again, if you believe if you believe me when I say if you believe in the idea that the brand is what connects people to the business, well, then what the brand stands for their values, their their position on a given issue, political, social, whatever, then it does matter. For better or for worse. I just don’t think that the brand can control it as much as they think they can. Right? Because they certainly can’t control their audience. They can influence their audience. They can try to anticipate what the majority of their audience believes or feels about a specific issue. But, you know, when it comes to control, and it doesn’t exist, it just doesn’t influence exist, but even that has limit so I roll my eyes a lot and when when I when I see the question, you know where the debate happening? It’s I’m just like, who really cares? That’s different from caring about the issue. I definitely care about the issues, I feel very strongly about the same issues. I just don’t care about what the brand thinks, or what the brand says they stand for. I just don’t.

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