At 24, Joel thought he had the dream. A healthy fast food spot called Thinker’s Grill with salmon burgers and smoothies. Instead, it turned into almost $800,000 in debt and a crash course in how brutal business can be.

In this episode, Joel breaks down what really happened behind the scenes. The pressure to open more locations, the overhead that quietly piles up, and the hard lessons about leases, payroll, and operations that most new entrepreneurs never see coming.

Then came the pivot. With debt piling up, Joel jumped into commission based financial services and started cold calling nonstop. We talk about rejection, rebuilding confidence after a big loss, and how that grind eventually turned into a successful financial planning business.

And the story gets even wilder. Years later Joel became part owner of the Grand Rapids Gold, the Denver Nuggets G League affiliate, and ended up receiving an NBA Championship ring.

This conversation is about failure, rebuilding, and figuring out what actually works in business and life.