Has your husband betrayed your trust, lied to you, or left you feeling confused about what’s really happening? Many women think, “Maybe we just need couples therapy near me to fix this.”

It makes perfect sense to want support when the marriage feels unstable.

But here’s what most women don’t learn until much later:

After interviewing over 200 women who experienced their husband’s betrayal, I discovered that couple therapy often makes things worse if he has a history of lying. Many women told me they walked out feeling even more confused than they were when they walked in.

Before you schedule couple therapy near me, here’s what you need to know.

Any couple therapy, whether it’s near you or if you do in online, is designed for two people who are honest, transparent. But when betrayal or deception happened, couple therapy sessions tend to shift in the wrong direction. Women describe:

Instead of addressing the real issue, his choices, his patterns, and his secrecy, therapy often redirects the focus onto “communication skills,” or “relationship dynamics.”

Meanwhile, the woman is still left without the one thing she needs most: Answers.

Before you sit in a room with a couples therapist near you and try to explain what’s been happening, you need a clear, simple framework for understanding:

That’s why I created the Clarity After Betrayal workshop.

It’s the resource over 200 women I interviewed told me they desperately needed before spending months or years in therapy that didn’t address the real problem.

The videos series helps you:

If you’re trying to figure out whether couple therapy near me will help your marriage, the workshop is the essential first step.

👉 Clarity After Betrayal ($27)

Anne: I have a member of our community on today. We’re going to call her Ruby. Welcome, Ruby.

Ruby: Thank you, Anne. I feel privileged to be here and to help other women in my situation feel like they’re not alone.

Anne: Let’s start with your story.

Ruby: We met through a mutual friend who now completely sees what he is and feels devastated for me. He once told me he wanted to pursue someone else and realized I was easier to con.

Anne: Wow.

Ruby: Her parents were stable, and mine weren’t. She had an aware mother and a really good dad. For me, scripture influenced my choices in a way that made me believe I couldn’t leave my home unless I was married.

Anne: Looking back, you realize that wasn’t true?

Ruby: Correct. Technically I could have left, but heavy condemnation surrounded any thought of it. People insisted that leaving without being married “wouldn’t be of God.” We met when I was 19, and he used church language, God, and scripture to present himself as someone who wanted the same family life I wanted.

I thought I was choosing a righteous man. He acted fun, lively, and said all the right things. I had no reason then to imagine I might one day start searching for clarity or wondering if a couples therapist near me could help.

Ruby: The long-distance relationship made his con easier because he controlled what I saw. He always said our time together was “time well spent.” That illusion made it harder for me to question things later.

Fourteen months later we married, and I became pregnant. He pressured me into premarital sex, something I never wanted because of my values. That pressure created shame that stayed with me for years.

Ruby: My family felt devastated, and people shunned me. He never carried any of that shame. That contrast should have warned me long before I ever wondered whether a couples therapist near me could help make sense of what was happening.

Anne: Many women describe that same pressure. They don’t recognize it as coercion until much later. The so-called “righteous man” eventually uses the shame against them for years.

Anne: Was that true for you?

Ruby: Yes. He used anything he could to break me down. He recognized my guilt and took advantage of it.

Ruby: Sometimes he had what I call lucid moments. Once he admitted our premarital sex was his fault. Weeks later, he denied ever saying it.

He always knew the truth, but he twisted it whenever it served him. Those moments confused me and made it harder to see the bigger pattern, something a couples therapist near me would likely misinterpret as miscommunication.

Anne: They sometimes drop a tiny bit of truth to manipulate. Then they pretend they never knew it.

Ruby: Exactly. He did that for years. He once told me the kids and I would be better off with another man, then denied it the next day.

His motives were calculated and passive-aggressive. He wanted me to look unstable.

Anne: Do you think he sometimes told the truth so you would be the one to take action and then he could blame you?

Ruby: Yes. He wanted me to feel responsible for everything while he stayed in control.

Ruby: Early on, he told me he’d been wild in the Navy but stopped drinking after waking up on a bathroom floor. That was fine with me because I wasn’t a partier. He wanted to look reformed.

He claimed he had never slept with anyone before, but then he hinted at inappropriate situations, like a coworker undressing in front of him. I believed him because he framed those stories as accidents instead of choices.

Later the military discharged him, and he tried to blame everyone else. Looking back, the pattern stood out clearly, and no couples therapist near me could have fixed a man committed to deception.

I don’t believe he was a virgin when we met. He used the idea of “we made this mistake together” to bind me to him. Now I see that as another lie.

Anne: That’s very likely.

Ruby: Yes.

Anne: Let’s go back in time for a moment. What did you think the problems were back then? Did you believe he was stressed at work, overwhelmed, or dealing with normal marriage challenges?

Ruby: I thought the good outweighed the bad. He acted very family-oriented and talked about caring for his parents. So I assumed everyone had flaws, and as long as more things went right than wrong, we were okay.

Anne: Did you ever think it was your fault? Did you ever think, “If I do this better, maybe he won’t get upset”?

Ruby: During dating, no. He acted like the stable one and framed me as emotional or overly excited about things. He positioned himself as the grounding force in my life, someone steady.

Ruby: Looking back, he probably did things I couldn’t see, but he made it seem like he was strong and I was the one who needed correction. That dynamic made me less likely to question the confusion.

Anne: As the relationship progressed and you thought, “This is just his personality,” did you reach a point where you sought help? Did you consider counseling, clergy, or even looking up a couples therapist near me?

Ruby: Oh yes, absolutely. He’s adopted and has an adopted sibling, and he used that as an excuse to say counseling ruined him. He strongly insisted, “I don’t do counseling,” and blamed his parents for forcing him into it.

Ruby: I should have noticed the contradiction between how he presented himself as family-oriented and how he criticized his parents every day. He claimed I was “against them,” even though he constantly complained about them.

Our first counseling attempt went terribly. He resisted the idea from the start, and convincing him took a lot of energy. The couple leading the session didn’t have the skills to guide us.

They asked us to take compatibility tests, and I thought, “We’re already married. Why does that matter now?” Then they focused on our sex life, which felt intrusive and irrelevant. We ended up stopping because it helped nothing.

Many women don’t realize marriage counseling can actually worsen things, even before they search for a couples therapist near me. An abusive partner can twist counseling into another weapon.

Ruby: When he finally agreed to counseling, he loved it because he controlled the narrative. He pretended to want help, but he shut down every real issue I raised. When I tried to talk about his behavior toward our son, he became angry and defensive.

When you go into counseling with someone who mistreats you, the counselor often assumes you’re dealing with ordinary “marriage problems.” They focus on communication or stress instead of harmful behavior. Their assumptions end up protecting him.

Anne: Exactly. They think you’re not communicating well or not having enough sex or that he needs anger management. They misidentify the entire issue right from the start, and once they do, the help becomes harmful.

Anne: In my case, people assumed pornography addiction caused all the problems. That might have been part of it, but it wasn’t the thing destroying my marriage. Most therapists don’t recognize abuse even when you describe it clearly.

The average therapist misses the pattern, and even when they see pieces of it, they often don’t know how to respond. They default to generic couples therapy tools and say, “Let’s explore your childhoods” or “Let’s work on communication,” while the real issue continues unchecked.

You don’t know what’s actually happening, and the professionals you seek also don’t know. This happens constantly when a woman’s husband controls the narrative in therapy.

Ruby: Yes, exactly. They need to ask better questions.

Anne: That’s why I put together Clarity After Betrayal. So women could know what to expect before they schedule with a couples therapist near me. The workshop includes what more than 200 women told me they wish they had known. It’s only $27 and gives answers years faster (and much cheaper) than couples therapy.

Ruby: I heard my mom say many times, “I made my commitment under God, to God, in my marriage, no matter what your dad does.” That belief created such heavy bondage for her, and it breaks my heart when I think about it now.

Anne: When I first started podcasting, I felt scared and confused and fought to keep my vows at all costs. I prayed, fasted, and hoped things would change because I didn’t want to disappoint God.

Now I feel the opposite because I believe God wants women to separate from evil and harm. Many women say God nudged them years earlier, but clergy gave them poor advice that kept them trapped. I hear that pattern again and again.

Here’s an example of emotional abuse if that helps.

Ruby: I remember driving home and dreading walking through my own door. I took the kids everywhere because being alone with him created constant anxiety. Even errands felt safer.

Around that time, we also got a puppy, and the responsibility overwhelmed me. I kept praying for direction because nothing made sense, and I felt exhausted trying to hold everything together.

Then he left on his own. He packed his car two days before Father’s Day and didn’t try to hide it. I begged him to wait because the kids had made him gifts.

He looked at me and said, “I don’t need any more meaningless crap,” and drove away. At the end of that month, God spoke to me clearly and said, “Enough. You’re done. Let him go.”

Something inside me shifted immediately. It felt like God lifted him out of my heart. I finally felt space to breathe.

In the beginning, everything felt raw, and I couldn’t see beyond that moment. I had just started seeing the truth of what I lived through. I didn’t yet realize how much clarity would come later—long before a couples therapist near me could have helped.

Ruby: For any woman who feels condemnation, I want her to know this: you didn’t break your vow. Your husband’s choices broke the marriage. You still have value, dignity, and worth.

You’re not damaged goods in God’s eyes. You never were. I speak out to help women stop blaming themselves for harm they didn’t cause.

You’re not breaking up your family. His choices already did that. Pretending everything was fine only deepened the damage. Staying silent gave him protection, not me.

As he grew more volatile and irrational, I grew more afraid of doing the wrong thing. He trained me to manage his world so he didn’t have to regulate himself. I handled the home, the kids, and every detail.

Because I carried that load, he told others I acted controlling. That projection confused me for years. No couples therapist near me could have revealed those dynamics without seeing the truth behind closed doors.

Ruby: I think many of us fear that people won’t understand and will condemn us for doing the right thing. A friend of mine was labeled a “husband basher” simply for describing her reality. Their mutual friends didn’t want that truth.

I knew she wasn’t bashing him. She was finally naming what harmed her. But when others feel invested in maintaining a certain image of him, they reject anything that disrupts their version of the story. They want to believe you just didn’t complete the therapist’s assignments.

Anne: Or they simply don’t believe you. They believe the man who lies and manipulates because it’s easier. It happens far too often and leaves women feeling isolated. This is so common when you are dealing with your abusive husband’s therapist.

Writing became a meaningful part of your healing process. It let you express your pain. Even though we aren’t sharing your writing today, I know it helped you see truths you couldn’t say out loud yet.

Ruby: It really did. Writing helped me turn pain into something I could see and understand. For years I felt split because I tried to serve two masters and live two different lives.

I tried to serve God while staying united with someone who wasn’t walking toward God at all. Nothing he did aligned with God. That realization revealed how much confusion I carried.

When separation happened, something settled inside me. For the first time in years, I felt aligned with God again. A couples therapist near me couldn’t have created that shift because it required honesty, not mediation.

Ruby: Women should ask themselves: Are you living with constant turmoil? Do you feel torn between serving God and staying united with your husband? That inner conflict signals something deeper.

The clarity journey is long and exhausting, but essential. Building community supports you through the confusion. Strong community helps you stay grounded when things feel heavy.

Anne: Thank you so much. Your story and courage will help so many women who feel alone. Your willingness to share matters.

Ruby: Thank you for having me. It has been my privilege.

Ruby: The only thing I want women to know is this: don’t assume this is the end. Your life isn’t over, even if it feels that way.

Anne: It’s true. Beautiful and meaningful things still lie ahead, even when the path feels difficult.

Ruby: Thank you. And thank you for giving women a place to find real answers before spending years in couples therapy.

Counter parenting is one of the most overlooked forms of abuse, where one parent actively works against the other instead of with them. It undermines stability, confuses children, and normalizes emotional abuse in ways that often go unseen. In this episode, we talk about how to recognize counter parenting and why understanding it is vital for creating safety and freedom for you and your kids.

To see if your partner’s behavior is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

In public, it may sound like jokes. It may seem like teasing, but in private it cuts deep. What seems like humor or sympathy actually erodes a child’s respect for their mom.

He creates constant fires with the kids that keep you spinning your wheels so that you have to be involved and he can exploit you for parenting. You’re left doing the chores he forgot. Fixing problems he “didn’t know how to handle” or covering responsibilities he shrugs off. The chaos robs you of energy for real parenting and distracts you from the core issue, a pattern of deception and control.

His anger issues or stress mask his manipulation. He uses secrets and favors to pull kids into his corner and create distance from you.

I went through this. I was so stressful all the time. People thought it was my fault, and they distanced themselves from me. Which was very difficult. While redefining you as unstable, he love bombs the children with gifts, leniency, and special treatment to position himself as the fun one and undermine your authority. It’s important to know that healing doesn’t happen in isolation—it happens in a community of women who truly understand what you’re going through. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are designed to offer just that.

Kids quickly learn who they feel safe with eventually they will come to know who they can count on.

A man who lies and degrades women can never be a good dad.

If this list resonates with your experiences in your marriage, there is a strong possibility you may be facing emotional abuse. To learn effective strategies for protecting yourself, consider enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.

Anne: I have A. S. King on today’s episode. I think you’ll resonate with her story, especially when we get to this part. Her latest book is called Pick The Lock.

Amy: I didn’t know this at the time, and I really know it now. One can’t be a terrible husband and a good father. We can take something terrible and somehow survive in it.

Anne: So yes, our topic today is counter parenting.

A. S. King is incredible. The New York Times book Review called her one of the best YA writers working today. And is one of YA fiction’s most decorated. She’s the only two-time winner of the American Library Association’s Michael L. Prince Award. She won the LA Times book prize for Ask the Passengers. And in 2022, Amy received the ALA’s, Margaret A. Edwards Award for her lifetime achievement in YA literature.

So as you listen to Amy, you’ll hear each of those six things in her story. Welcome, Amy.

Amy: Thank you for having me, Anne. From the very beginning, I followed you on Instagram. I often link your graphics in my stories in Instagram. Your graphics are educational, when you will find yourself in a situation where there is abuse. It mattered so much to me, because I lived almost 30 years with abuse. I had this one book called Still Life with Tornado. It came out in 2016. A lot of recovery groups for women who have been through abuse use that one, specifically psychological and emotional abuse. Which of course is always present when any of the other stuff is there.

This year I just released a book called Pick the Lock, which is very close to, a lot of the things I’ve been dealing with. Before I finally divorced, and since.

Amy: Actually, the book for this year is all about what I found out about counter parenting. This is part of why I wanted to come here. I know that some listeners in that space I can help and fix this, and they’re stuck. Because I was stuck for 29 years. I believed so many things and I thought so many things. We all know hindsight’s 20-20. You learn life backward, right? That’s how it works. And what I learned in the last few years really taught me. That a huge part of the rest of my life will be trying to compassionately warn women and young women.

And that our levels of comfort and safety are actually incredibly important, even though society constantly tells us that they are not. Yeah, I just wanted to talk to you about why I love your work so much.

Anne: I’m so grateful that you reached out, and excited when artists, writers, use your unique talents to help other women. So as you’re considering teaching a generation of women through YA fiction about how to recognize abuse, what are some patterns that every woman needs to know regardless of their age?

Amy: One of the best things about writing fiction for me is that it’s not implicating somebody, even though it’s all true. It’s sort of, like showing the behaviors. And showing the reactions to the behaviors. In Still Life with Tornado, for example, the mother has a point of view part. So she speaks from her own point of view. But the father, he’s just that silent tyrant. Sort of that quiet abuse that’s really easy to get away with, because it’s quiet and it’s only aimed at disrespecting his wife in that book.

Amy: Chad is always doing small things that are unhelpful and disruptive, but he thinks no one else can see it. Now from the point of view of the 16 year old daughter, she can absolutely see it. And in my own life, I was like, isn’t that interesting? I write books about how young people see abuse, recognize it, and harmed by it.

It’s not possible to do that. And while that seems unfair, he takes them to the movies. Yes, I understand he does all those things, but he also treats you terribly in front of your children, and behind your back is doing some form of counter parenting. And counter parenting is a term I only really just learned, and really understood that is what my life was made of.

And I didn’t know it, because it’s all done behind your back. That’s the whole point. Turning your kids against you without even you knowing it. Because you’re so busy trying to fix him and fix the situation, and get him back to the guy he was when you got married. Who didn’t exist, by the way. So for me, the pattern of the person being abused is what I’m focusing on, because there’s domestic violence in many of my novels, even my middle grade novels for younger readers.

Because that young person is in the house trying to help mom see it. And help mom escape. I guess I’m writing about my own mistakes. I’m looking at my own mistakes and saying, look, I’m putting this on the page so I can learn from it.

Amy: And I mean, Anne, I wrote a middle grade book called Attack of the Black Rectangles. It’s about censorship. and book banning. She still invites the ex-husband over for the sake of the child. She feeds him dinner once a week. And her father, the grandfather, lives in the basement. So it’s like an interesting kind of new family structure, and there’s this scene where the son is sitting at the table, the mom is doing some stuff in the kitchen, she’d been looking for this mug. It meant a lot to her, and she couldn’t find it anywhere.

She’d asked her dad, she’d asked the son. So then this ex-husband shows up and she says, “Oh, by the way, have you seen my mug?” And he says, “I smashed it.” The kid’s sitting right at the table, and the grandfather’s too. And she said, “Wait, you mean like it broke on the way out of the dishwasher?”

He goes, “No, I smashed it because I was angry.” And he kept that terrifying tone. It was interesting because when my editor read that, for some reason, that’s when he texted me and said, oh my gosh, the mug scene. And I wrote back to him, I’m like, that happened.

It’s the idea that we go, he has anger issues. Really? Did he smash his boss’s mug? No. Did he smash a stranger’s mug? No. He only smashed the things that were important to you. And in the end, he takes things from the house, and the only things he takes are things from the son and the ex-wife, so it’s these sort of things I don’t have any time for anymore.

Amy: I don’t have any time for it, because I got free. It’s the best thing ever. I wake up every morning going, oh, putting my hands up like I just won a race every single morning, because I’m free. And it’s wonderful. So Pick the Lock came out and I’m a weirdo too, right? So I write weird stuff, but I also write trauma, specifically, because regardless of what kind of trauma I’m putting in there, I think weirdness really helps.

There’s an emotional currency in weirdness. Because when one has gone through trauma, you feel weird because the world’s like shhh, we don’t want to hear about that. “Why don’t you just solve that problem by yourself? Be cool, shhh.”

And that’s a terrible way to deal with trauma. That’s how we’ve been dealing with this, is most people are kids. Everybody’s like no, but don’t talk about that. I believe people should talk about their trauma. So in Pick the Lock, it’s really about the counter parenting I learned about after the divorce. I got to tell you the story about the guy at Target, classic counter parenting and totally acceptable in our culture. This is a real like old style Rodney Dangerfield almost kind of joke.

He’s got three girls. And he’s at the self checkout. The kids were probably at the most, the oldest was maybe nine and the others were pretty little, down to maybe four and he’s got the three girls there around the cart he gets some cash back.

And when he takes the cash out of the machine, he goes, “And you know who we won’t give this to. Who won’t we give this money to? We won’t give this money to Mommy because all she’s gonna do is spend it.”

Amy: That’s not what you tell your children. If you married to her, you have her back. That’s the whole point of a partnership. This is a huge type of psychological abuse and emotional abuse that people do to children. He thinks he’s being funny. But he’s not. That’s just mean and nasty. That’s a typical sort of everyday example of what counter parenting really is.

Anne: Because your books are YA and the main character is a young adult, they are seeing the abuse from a different perspective. How has that helped you process abuse? Than say, the wife of the abuser who maybe doesn’t realize what’s going on, or maybe she does and doesn’t know what to do. She’s resisting it by trying couple therapy, or she’s resisting by going to clergy, or she’s resisting in a way that’s not keeping her safe, it’s not keeping her kids safe. But it’s the best she can do, because she doesn’t understand what’s going on.

Amy: Like if I look back at now 35 years of my life, it’s more than half of my life. I’m 54. So like when I look back at that amount of time and look at how many things I was lied to about, holy cow! And now I’m starting to see the small stuff, like dumb stuff. Like, this is how we paint the thing, or this is how we clean brushes. It was like, no, that’s just what you think. It’s not actually the only way to do a thing. I had to answer a question recently on a college financial aid application.

Amy: It asked, “Is the person remarried?” I was like, no, but I almost wanted to put a question mark behind that, because I’m not sure. And, “Does the person have other children?” I’m like unknown. He lied so much. I honestly wouldn’t know.

I would never intentionally hurt a person, would never take someone’s pain and use it against them. And I just listened to one of your episodes about forgiveness used against you. Some of the worst things that ever happened to me, of course, I shared those with my spouse. When you share that with a person, you expect them to keep that private for you, the way you keep things private for them.

I got a lot of interesting messages in the last few years. A few of them were from women that had worked with him. They knew what they thought were secrets about me. They were lies, They weren’t secrets. He made up secrets based on the terrible things that happened to me. And told people that’s what I liked.

He actually tried to pick up women by saying that I liked these weird things. And he just couldn’t do those weird things. It was like, wow, not only is that wrong, but when you share with somebody that you have been sexually assaulted or raped. And then they turn around and use that to pick up women at work. Then gets let go for serial sexual harassment. He’s a mess, just a walking, lying mess.

Anne: The lying is the most important part of counter parenting.

Anne: Determine if his character is a liar, which is an abuser, because lying is emotional and psychological abuse. You can’t process the information if you don’t have that baseline understanding. But once you realize that, everything changes. A woman might say to me, his therapist told him that I probably suffer from childhood trauma. And I always want to ask, who told you his therapist said that? Because he could literally not have gone to therapy at all.

Amy: Correct.

Anne: Not even have a therapist and tell you that his therapist said that, and he’s never even been to therapy. Or he could go to therapy and the therapist didn’t say that, but he chooses to say that when he gets home. This could apply to clergy. It could apply to his mom. It could apply to the neighbor. “Hey, this neighbor said this about you.” And so you’re thinking, wow, this is what the neighbor said when the neighbor never said it, or a billion other possibilities. But knowing that he’s a liar is the key to unlock all of it including counter parenting.

Amy: It’s huge, that’s the key to the lock. And once you realize you can’t even answer basic questions. Because when you learn about the weird throwaway lies. And you learn about all these different lies. You realize, did he ever tell the truth? For me, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I’m just like, well, you know, childhood stuff or this or that. And eventually, my son turned to me and said, “Will you keep making excuses for him your whole life?” And I was like, no, I’m not going to keep making excuses.

But I did because I wanted everything to continue working out as best as it could. Which of course it never did. Because you know what? I was the only one wanting it. and doing the stuff required for something to work out for the best. But then once I started learning all these different things he was like, I must have a mental illness. I said, go and talk to your doctor or go to therapy. And then he said, “I have this mental illness.” You must take care of me. And so I did that. I remember being in a car in some strange place at a conference for publishing.

And my editor in the back of the car said, “I don’t know why you stay with this person.” Knowing the stories I had told over the years. I was always late on deadlines. Oh, life was so complicated, they keep you busy so that you can’t do anything. You can’t even think. So I’m in this car, and I say, listen, if he had MS, or if he got diagnosed with a physical illness, would I leave him?

No, I would stay with him. He has this illness. Then once things were over, my ex-husband and I had a conversation, and he laughed at me and said, “I never had a mental illness.”

I said, “Well, you told the kids for 10 years that you had a mental illness. You told all of us.”

And he went, “Yeah, I never had that.”

I said, “Then why are you so abusive?”

And he actually said, “It’s just because I’m an a-hole.”

And I just left it at that. But then over the years, I’m like, hold it. The reason the house is in my name is because it’s my house, It was like, “Oh, you have to put my name in the mortgage because, I have this illness and that means I have a fear of this. And you have to put it there.”

And then I look all the different things that I was coerced into doing based on this lie.

Anne: Yeah, because of his lie.

Amy: It’s incredible. At the very end, it was like, “I have an addiction now too.” And I’m like, “Once you come out of rehab, then you go and find a halfway house.”

“You can’t put me in a halfway house. I have to come home.” Really!? The keeping you busy, the keeping you worried, the keeping you hypervigilant, the keeping you just edgy all the time is part of the trick!

Anne: It is, yeah.

Amy: It’s the whole thing!

Anne: Trying to figure out what’s wrong and how you can help them is the trick with abusers.

Amy: Absolutely.

Anne: It’s every part of it. You’ve probably heard me talk about the Living Free Workshop. I keep talking about it, because it’s how women can take a step back and notice these are just shadows. This is not reality, because abuse and counter parenting is a character issue. Even if they’re telling the truth it’s on purpose to achieve a goal. Not because they care about you.

Amy: It’s all a scheme.

Anne: Exactly, so, when someone says to me, “At that point, he finally told me he had an affair.” Or at that point, he finally told me he was addicted to drugs. I’m like, he may have told you the truth, but it wasn’t the whole truth. And then why then? What benefit did it have for him at that moment?

Amy: Correct, there was a moment at that 10 year mark. I had just come back from a writer’s thing. I did my laundry, exactly what I needed for four days sat there folded next to a suitcase. SoI went upstairs and put it in the suitcase, because the kids had gone to bed and came back downstairs.

I said, “I’m going to leave. I’m going to stay in a hotel tonight. I’ll be back for the kids tomorrow.” If I could go back in time. Anne, there are many times from many years before then I could have gone, but if I could go back in time, that’d be the night.

But what happened was the talk happened. And I said, “You’re saying the same stuff as you always say. Unless you have something new to say.”

Amy: And that’s when he hooked me in with, I really need to take care of him. Even more than I’d already done. But it was convenient. Like you said, “Why right then is he saying that? There’s a reason, and it’s usually to keep you there.” That’s it, period. Also because he’s called you a liar so many times. And once you’re gaslit for 28 years, you’re so hyper vigilant about telling the truth that you will tell the whole story, including every single detail. I do it all the time, drives me nuts.

You’ll still believe the things that they say. I’m a few years divorced. And, I actually had 7 strokes in about 26 hours.

Anne: Wow.

Amy: I’m fine. I went to my physical therapy, I I got my right side back, everything works.

Anne: I’m so glad you’re okay.

Amy: I’m still a little weak, and I still use the cane if I’m feeling extra tired. But anyway, I’m fine. So because I’m a writer and artist. I have a beautiful group of colleagues and friends in the business. And also I’m a hundred percent self employed. It’s check to check. I don’t know how I do it, but when news went out that I had a stroke and they knew I was in the hospital, one of my friends started a GoFundMe. To fund the few months for recovery, and go to physical therapy, and learn how to use my right side again and balance. Same time, I was planning a few things for the summer.

Amy: My son and I were going to go to Europe. Once I was on the meds and my second checkup. I had said to the doc, “Is this dangerous or is this smart?”

They’re like, “No, you’re good. You can do that. So we had to let Dad, know. And magically, about two weeks later, I got a child support review. And I’m like, that’s some pretty bad timing. He knows I’m going to be in Europe. He’s said, no, this is just because I don’t want to get into arrears. And I said, “Oh, how big was the raise you got?” And it wasn’t much. I really thought that he didn’t want to get into arrears until the phone call three months later. And he says something about the GoFundMe money.

Anne: Ohhh!.

Amy: It had nothing to do with his arrears. Let me get this straight. I’m 100 percent raising your child. Your wages are minimally garnished. Believe me, there were no lawyers involved in this. This is literally the minimum. And I am definitely paying, especially this year. Senior year, you’re paying so much more, but you came after the money my friends collected for me after I had a stroke and continued to raise your child. That is counter parenting.

Anne: Yup.

Amy: Like he had to help me get in and out of the car and you’re trying to take the little money we have. What is the issue? But by then I already knew. I knew this was a liar. But it still I swear it took me another two months.

Amy: One day I was just sitting here going, that’s why he brought that up. Now in hindsight, I can tell the story the way I just did. But in the middle, between the phone call hearing and two months after, I’ve been like, it was really weird. He asked about this, I can’t believe he asked about this.I’m like, girl, that is why he did it in the first place. What is it about you that believes people all the time? And it’s because I am a nice person. It’s that simple.

Anne: Because they always have a goal, and you don’t know what that goal is.

Amy: Right, it’s the scheme again.

Anne: It’s so impossible, you’re not ever doing anything wrong. You’re just being a normal person.

Amy: Keeping the house together, keeping the kids fed. I was pretty much the breadwinner for all those years. With the travel and just having to work all the time. He had more time to be with the kids to do his counter parenting. I have journals and wow, some of the things I wrote down. I look at it now and I’m like, wow, I believed that when I wrote it and that wasn’t true.

The biggest thing I learned is how it is a mindset, how if someone’s always scheming, they’re always going to be scheming. It doesn’t matter whether they’re in the supermarket and they are shoplifting or if they are, getting a job but they’re lying about their past. If they’re trying to figure out how to fake a vaccination that they didn’t get so that they can go to work, or whatever the heck it is.

Amy: Like, it’s always a scheme. It’s just how their brains work.

Anne: Yeah, and they’ll scheme about things they don’t even need to scheme about.

Amy: Exactly, and it gets worse. That was the one thing I didn’t understand. There’s so many things I love when you put your messaging out on Instagram and other places. When you say things like, “Once you figure out that you’re being abused, don’t tell the abuser he’s an abuser.” That is the best advice ever because you know what I did?

I loaned, Why Does He Do That to my abuser. And then he learned more tricks. That’s all he learned from that book. It’s only going to get worse. We used to have a thing because of that book. I’m like, are you a 4% er or are you not a 4% er? I want to be a 4% er. I have texts and screenshots. While he was forcibly kissing so and so. Now I know what he was doing at that time, he will use all that stuff against you. He’s digging a hole or painting himself into a corner. But of course, he’s getting me to talk to him. So his digging is effective.

I’m still talking to him about how he should or shouldn’t dig or paint himself into a corner and kind of going, Oh, you paint yourself into a corner. Instead of…

Anne: Safety,

Amy: Safety, exactly, yes. Thank you. Yes, exactly. That is why when I wake up in the morning, I do put my arms up and I’m like, yes! Every time because we are safe now.

Amy: This is a person who, at times said certain things like, “I know why you’re terrified of me. I wasn’t going to kill you, kill you. I was hoping you’d do me the favor.”

Anne: What?

Amy: And you’re there like, wow. And he teamed up with other people. He looked for allies in his hatred for me. This is weird story but here you go. I lived in a farm in Ireland a long time and rats do a thing that mice don’t do. If a rat is caught in a trap, his family friends will pull that trap down into the hole and have him for dinner. And that’s kind of how I feel about the whole thing of counter parenting.

That’s what you’re dealing with. But you’re like, I’m not dealing with that. This is a nice guy, the guy that loves me. But where is he showing it? I remember the day I realized like, Ooh. I can’t do this anymore. My mom and dad had just had their 60th anniversary.

They both came from interesting backgrounds, but they did make it work. And, my father’s taking care of my mom while she’s in a bad state. Looking at what love really looks like, I couldn’t get sick, I’m sure there are people nodding right now. I wasn’t allowed to get sick. If I got sick, I was in trouble. It wasn’t that real overt stuff. It was always covert, it was always a little bit snide a little side eye. And looking at my dad love my mom so much.

Amy: It’s amazing. But I remember when they hit their 60th and my mom was talking to me. And I’m like, Oh I can’t get to 60, I can’t. I got out of there at 29, it just keeps getting worse and the lies get worse. And then, after, you walk away and find safety, you will learn a lot more about what really happened when you thought it was something else. Don’t feel foolish. It’s not your fault.

Anne: Totally, with counter parenting.

Amy: You didn’t do anything wrong. All you did was trust a person. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Anne: Can you talk about where you were when you started writing Pick the Lock? Like your mindset, the process you went through to write it?

Amy: Like any other book, it starts way earlier than when the actual writing starts. It started with a post-it note, “If you can imagine like a zigzag, you could imagine a hamster tube with two 45 degree bends. At one of those bends, there was a chair, and then it just said “system”. I made that post-it note when I realized, thanks to my kids being open with me. And talking to me about the things their father told them about me.

I thought my narrative and who I was in my life was clear. But I didn’t realize that while I was in the kitchen, they could be pulled aside in the room right next to the kitchen and told terrible lies about me. And so they had to deal with that. Many, women are like, “Well, he’s a terrible husband, but he’s a great father.”

Amy: And I will say again, those two things cannot coexist. Because that person is cruelly treating their mother in front of them. You, you can’t keep these things from the children. It’s not a woman’s fault to stay and try and try and try ’cause that’s what we do. People tell us to try. In reality, those kids know what’s going on. Then they’re sometimes extra confused. Because so often this is how counter parenting happens. I did not know how common it was until I started talking about it with people, groups, and other women. It turns out that this is something that’s quite common.

So I wanted to write about it. Because that little hamster tube with the chair in it was me. It was the narrative. A visual representation of what it was like to not control my own narrative, even though I literally lived it. Like show, don’t tell, which is a real writing thing. You show, you don’t tell. So I lived it and showed it. I was the breadwinner. I was doing all these great things for my family. But while I was gone doing those great things to be able to feed my family. Someone who really wanted control and power over that narrative redefined my family.

Anne: Almost poisoned.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. When you lie, when you lie to a child, I don’t care what it’s about. When you lie to a child for your own gain. That’s a certain kind of poison, no doubt.

Anne: Yeah, so I wanna talk about the book, without giving too much away. So I’ll only talk about what happened in the beginning, the motifs or symbolism. I think the tube situation is obvious, the symbolism there where you are separated and isolated, even though you’re still in the same home.

Amy: Correct, you’re right there in the same room. You eat dinner with your family, but he isolates you through counter parenting. Absolutely, that’s part of it too, right? So it’s weird, those tubes represented so many things. This happens with books when you’re a writer. The longer you’re away from a book, the more you see in it. You’re like, oh, wow! I basically personified the patriarchy and then drowned it. That was satisfying. If only it was that easy in real life. The story starts with Jane, the story is told through a 16-year-old daughter’s point of view.

And Jane has just discovered she calls them home movies. But it’s really security footage from inside her home for the last 20 years. It’s long before she was born. That’s when she starts seeing everything she heard about her family. Or even the person telling her, her father, everything she ever knew about her family was a lie.

And she’s furious as anyone would be. I think that also represents what a lot of us go through once we separate and divorce or we walk away from somebody who’s been abusive. I honestly only yesterday, found out a new tidbit. It just keeps happening.

Amy: Anyway, Jane has access to a cloud. Where all these movies are, and the more movies she watches, she has to do what we all do. She has to question her memories. She’s like, Ooh, I know I was four when this one counter parenting thing happened.

Or I know, I was this age when this one thing happened. And she’s going through that years’ footage and those particular rooms, ’cause there’s, four or five cameras that she’s aware of. She’s trying to find these memories she has. And she can’t find them or she finds partial ones, or most importantly, she keeps finding new ones that she doesn’t have as memories, but now they’re right there in front of her.

And it really explains her parents’ relationship. It explains everything she blamed her mom for, because that’s what she was told to do. And encouraged to do. It shows the truth. The idea of people not believing you, and of doubting your own memories and all those things. It’s such a big deal. Over the decades I’ve been publishing, people will say, “Why do you write for teenagers?”

And I’m like, “They’re not taken seriously.” So as a woman in this society, I can tell you that I have a lot in common with teenagers. I’m a woman. The story then goes on, her mother is in these tubes in the house. You nailed it. You can be at a table, and we know that we’re somehow not part of this family. And yet, we made this family. And we’re not welcome. I always felt unwelcome, I guess is a good way to put it.

Amy: I was told so many things about how unlovable I was. And a lot of the lines said to Jane are verbatim, actually five of my journals. You’re so impossible to love. I think it’s important that we put it right out in the open. Because again, once I start talking about it, the amount of people that are like, “Oh yeah, that happened to me,”

And it’s kind of wild, and it’s time to talk about it. But then I also think the tubes represent the thing that women do when we are in strife. We usually help other people. We help other people before we help ourselves. At least I know that’s true for me, and probably true for most of the women I know. But more importantly, we can take a prison and turn it into some kind of a win. We can take something terrible and somehow survive in it. Take a controlled environment, and we can make a win out of it as long as we work together.

Women are the most willing caretakers of the patriarchy.

Anne: Yeah, without us, it wouldn’t even exist.

Amy: Correct, if we didn’t follow all the rules and if we weren’t pitted against each other. If we weren’t, trying to win the popularity contest at our places of choice, whether that be a church, just the neighborhood, in the family. I remember that at one point in my family, we have a few cousins and siblings. And I remember one of them going, “Well, you know, I did this first, I got married first.” What is that about? I got married first. What is it?

Amy: What is, I have to have the baby first? I remember someone saying, “She kind of pressured me because she had to have a baby, right then.” And I’m like, why? But this is all patriarchy, this is all controlled. They have us pitted, and it’s the exact same.

We have a larger model in the country of pitting. You pit people who are at the bottom against each other, and you can do whatever you want at the top. And that’s what we’re talking about inside a house and inside a culture.

Anne: I think it’s important to point out that people back women into this corner. I really believe they’re trying to survive. And because they don’t know of any other way to survive, they don’t have the words for it. They don’t have the way to process the abuse and counter parenting. They are trying to succeed in the best way in the environment they are aware of. So it’s not like they’re not on their own side. It’s just that because they’re living in a house of mirrors or tubes or whatever metaphor we wanna use. Like, “I’m gonna be the best brownie maker here.”

Because that’s the only world they have. So they uphold what they don’t know is a system oppressing them, but at least they are trying to succeed in that space. So giving women credit for how powerful and ingenious they are when they don’t know what’s going on, I think, is important. Because once they hopefully can wrap their heads around what is actually happening, I think that helps them say, whoa. whoa, whoa. If you need support from other women who have been through it, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.

Anne: What I’ve been doing actually has not been for me, I’ve been exploited. And dealt with counter parenting. I love the quote from Maya Angelou, where she says, “Of course I’m a feminist. I’m a woman. Why would I not be on my own side?” I’m paraphrasing. I wanna talk about the symbolism of this Victorian home, because that was interesting to me. The juxtaposition between a Victorian home and all this Victorian furniture representing the past, I’m guessing. That’s another thing I love about literature. Even though you’re the author, I could have my own interpretation.

Amy: That is the whole point. Once it leaves my desk, it’s up to you. And that is, you have to let go of the ownership. I actually just did a commencement speech at an art school on Friday, and I said, “What a relief. Once it’s on someone else’s wall, it’s not your business anymore.”

They may say, “Oh, I’d love this painting of raindrops.” And it’s absolutely about the worst night of your life, but you can’t tell them that. They think it’s raindrops, who cares? But you’re right, it’s open interpretation.

Anne: I did wanna talk to you about this part ’cause I had interpreted it this way and I’m very anxious and curious to hear what your thoughts are. But representing the past and this mother, whose vocation is rock star. She is popular culture. She’s a feminist. She fights against oppression, living every day. So this juxtaposition of this woman who is, I guess to the masses, someone who, and I’m seeing this in you a little bit. That this is, because you were kind of living this life.

Anne: Where you’re talking about feminism and trying to help women out while you’re living in an abusive relationship, but you didn’t know that you were. So I can definitely see the parallels there. But just having talked to you, I was like…

Amy: Well, I don’t mind.

Anne: Oh my word. I can see all this. But that was so fascinating to me, that juxtaposition between this woman who’s a rock star, who’s living in this Victorian home, and basically siloed there and silenced. Because of counter parenting and abuse.

Amy: Okay. So the first thing you have to understand, Anne, is that I am a bit of a weirdo. I write books using the surrealist method, meaning I don’t know what the book is about until I start writing. Jane, the main character, she will show me the way.

And that’s how it works. I have to follow her. So when suddenly there’s a rat talking in first person, I’m like, well, I suppose we’ll figure out who this rat is. We just move forward and hope to God we know. I had an idea of who the rat was. So it’s not like I’m going into it completely blindfolded, because as you write, you figure out what the book is about.

But in the case of the Victorian thing, every time I tried to open this book, I tried the opening about three or four times, maybe more. And Jane had her name pretty early. And she kept coming out with this sort of twee proper Victorian voice. I was like, what is up with this? Like, this is not my voice. Usually I’m not that voice. And then one day, I explain the world explaining the writing process to people of all ages.

Amy: And I always say, ” Use your own anger. Anger is a big one. Use your sadness too. Sure, use your happiness, use your joy, use all those things. But something was said to me about God knows something. And if you’ve read the prologue?

Anne: I have. Yeah. It was so good. I loved it.

Amy: You’ll understand that, God knows, is a punch in the teeth. Because when you have someone say to you, who has no business saying what God knows. I’m sorry, regardless of my religion or any of that, like, God is a large, beautiful, wonderful, universal thing. No, you won’t, get that word outta your mouth. And so, I was angry, and I wrote four really bad poems.

Then I was like, Ooh, and open up the file and just went. And that’s when Jane started. That’s when that formed. But more importantly. I could see Vernon, Jane’s father, in my mind’s eye, and I could see him with a pocket watch. He’s a fake, he’s a phony. And the mother inherited the Victorian house.

And so it’s her family home and the tubes were already in it, you see? Because a generation before her, that man controlled his wife in that home. And then after he died, she got to hang out in that house with that woman. Never thinking she would be put into the tubes. And actually, that’s one of the things that Jane realizes too, at 16, oh crap, I’m next. So really it’s those tubes are a metaphor for so many things in counter parenting.

Amy: It really is being a woman trapped in the patriarchy. But I chose Victorian because it seemed perfect. It’s a perfect place to hide bad habits, because it’s so luscious. It’s got velvet curtains, beautiful style, big roomy rooms and high ceilings, and everything’s so proper. They serve dinner at the dining table, and they have a cook. It’s all these things that are so proper. It seemed the perfect setting. And doesn’t it from the outside? Always, The amount of people that have said to me, but I thought everything was perfect.

Yes, that’s because I was covering and trying so hard. But no, it wasn’t perfect. And there’s that second home movie. Where he’s being so overly, we’re just gonna use the word love bombing. Because listeners will know what that means, but he is just being so overly like saccharine and sugary and laying it on so thick. And Jane, the narrator, has to say, you may think this man in this scene is taking place a hundred years ago. But actually, Mina’s in a pair of ripped up jeans and a ripped up t-shirt. It’s just this interesting way that he acts to hide everything, including himself.

Anne: I loved how you portrayed him as shorter. And I did not get the impression he was like crazy attractive. I liked that about it. To me, it really spoke to how sneaky they are, I wanna say, they seem like such good, ordinary people. And that I found very compelling.

Amy: That’s the point. I’m glad that came through the counter parenting. That makes me happy to hear.

Amy: Because that is again, we go back to those home movies, we go back to this young woman who’s 16 and everything, she believes. And when in the home movies, she also shows how terrible she was based on this influence. So she treated her mom like garbage a lot. And she feels terrible for it, but at the time she thought she was absolutely doing the right thing. Because she was told, “Your mother doesn’t love you. Your mother wants to kill you. Your mother wants all these things.” And of course, she thinks, “Well screw her.” And she’s treating her in these ways, and now she’s finding it was bull all along.

Anne: So it’s interesting that you describe the Victorian home as perfect. And I was, of course, layering my own experience onto what I read and how I interpret it. But in my mind, it was very dusty. There was too much stuff. Like an arrangement of dried flowers, for example. Or the curtains were just very heavy. Everything felt very oppressive to me. ‘Cause as I read it, I was getting kind of anxiety every time it was described. I just thought, oh, this place is stifling and suffocating.

Amy: That’s perfect. It’s still decorated in Victorian, except I see the kitchen as modern in my head. I think it’s a perfect juxtaposition with this large plexiglass tube in the corner. And the fact that there’s a woman in there. And if you really think about what that represents, especially in Jane’s world. Where, she for years looked over there and was so angry at this woman. Because of all these lies she was told about her.

Amy: Then when she realizes she’s been lied to, then she’s terrified she’s gonna be the next person. I think that is a metaphor that spans many different types of fears that happen inside of young people’s heads when they’re in that space. I just got off of a different interview, and I was talking about this moment. My son came home one time and talked about what it’s like to be children of divorced parents. And then he said, “Well, then there’s the other group.” And I’m like, oh, “What’s the other group?” He said, “Children of parents who should be divorced.”

And he goes, “I remember being in that group, and I’m glad I’m in this group now.” He was probably 14 or so when he said that, he is like, “’cause that group is sadder. They’re more scared. They’re in a space where everything’s still some kind of limbo. At least here there’s been some type of closure.”

It’s quite a powerful conversation to have with a young person who’s that self-aware. And also that aware of their surroundings and counter parenting. I know there’s obviously children of fantastic families, that everything’s functioning correctly. I don’t wanna only categorize the two, but that’s how he did. And teenagers often go very black and white. And that’s what he said. I found it interesting that they truly have these conversations. Gen Z is so smart.

And they are very aware. Children are incredibly resilient. The biggest fear I had once I had children was, children have to have two parents. And that’s what I was told many times. That this is the way it works.

Amy: And then more than one person has said to me, no, no, a child needs one solid parent. And they’re gonna be okay. Hearing that over and over again, and knowing that I’m solid. I’m not here looking to have relationships right now. I have to parent, that is my job.

Anne: In that way, I didn’t think of it until you were just describing this, but that Victorian setting also kind of represents a level of maturity that a child can gain from this environment.

Amy: Oh yes, the parentification, absolutely.

Anne: It’s like an old wisdom that they’ll have, wisdom beyond their years, that kind of a thing.

Amy: Yep, and not the kind you want them to have, but it’s sadly what they get. Both my kids, wise beyond their years. Because, part of their childhood never happened. Because they were so busy listening for footfalls and whether they were angry, footfalls. Whether they were sneaky counter parenting footfalls, they were so busy trying to figure out, is this person walking up or down the steps? Going to do something erratic? And on the other side, looking at mom being like, what’s gonna be her excuse today? And it sounds harsh, I know that, but it’s also very real. Kids are honest.

As much we peg them as liars, same as women. We go back to what I have in common with teenagers. In actual fact, I think that everyone’s closest to the truth. Outta the mouth, the babes we say. I remember the first time I sat the kids down and said, “There’s gonna be a separation.”

Amy: And my eldest said, “Oh God, I’ve been waiting for this since I was seven.” And I just thought, “Oh my gosh, take note of that. Take note of the guts it took to say that out loud, at that time.” Which have been considered inappropriate, but not really. This is, however old she was at the time, 13-year-old or something. So the first thing I think we have to discuss when it comes to young people is that A, we don’t give them a lot of credit. It’s one of the reasons I’m a fierce advocate for teenagers. With counter parenting going on.

We take things away from them versus giving them credit. But more importantly, we would have maybe taken a comment like that out of context and said, classic dramatic thing for a teenager to say. But in actual fact, she was serious. She saw things since she was seven that made her go, this isn’t cool.

She was getting pulled aside and having things said to her about me, but I didn’t know that then. And I don’t know what else. When you’re in it, you can’t figure out what to do, especially because it is so confusing.

You’re so confused, mostly because this person is looking at you, saying, no, I really am that guy that I was. And then it acts differently, or I really do love you, but then does something fiercely not loving. So it’s just constant confusion, because you’re trying to make sense of something that doesn’t make sense. And the reason it doesn’t make sense is because they’re lies. That’s why, because you’re being lied to.

Anne: A hundred percent.

Amy: It’s kind of amazing when we look at children and how unbelievably mature they are. And that Victorian setting and what eventually we learn happens to the little brother. I haven’t mentioned Henry yet. Since we have listeners who have not read this book, little brothers named Henry. He’s a few years younger than Jane. And Henry, because it’s Victorian times. He’s treated well because he’s a boy, isn’t he?

And he’s Vernon’s boy, but he is not given the secrets. So this is another part of what we’re talking about when it comes to counter parenting. We’ve got the parent who’s in control of the family. Who’s like, “I’ll let you in on a secret.” So that’s where the lies come to. “Let me tell you about your mother. Lemme tell you about this stuff, or these stories.”

But more importantly, they’re let in on things that they shouldn’t be let in on too early. So whether it be, Hey, have a sip of my beer. Or do you wanna toke off this joint, or do you wanna try cigarettes or whatever it is. I don’t have another word for it, that’s just grooming.

That happens so often in families like ours. Where it’s just, grooming is to get control period, that’s the point. It’s not there to get someone to think for themselves. Because an author for young people whose books have been banned. that word is thrown at me, and I’m like, “Listen, I write the book to help kids see themselves in books.” That’s it. And to talk about the truth. But that word is thrown at me. I’m not trying to control anybody.

Amy: But when someone tells me what my kids can read, oddly enough, that’s you trying to control somebody. And that’s what grooming is for. Henry, is, very obviously groomed by his father, and is the favorite simply because he’s a boy, but is also very openly neglected. And is a tragedy in the making really, with counter parenting. I see him doing okay once the bad influence is out of the house and away from him.

But what that man did, it’s the collateral damage. It’s the stray bullet. He may be aiming at the women in the house, right? Because he hates women. We need to get down to the fact that so many men hate women. If they don’t face it, talk about it and correct it in a way that makes them somehow compatible with women. They’re gonna ruin the women that they’re with.

Anne: Well, it’s bad for everyone. It’s not just bad for women. It’s really bad for them too, because that’s 50% of the population that they don’t take seriously.

Amy: There’s that. And if we get into the patriarchy, the men suffer. I don’t wanna say they suffer more from it, but we’re really used to it. So women are really used to it. We’re like, “Yeah, I know my place. I know they’re gonna tell me what to do. They’re gonna take away my healthcare. I know they’re gonna do these things to try and control me.” And we tend to find great ways through. We figure out how to get around these things so that we can continue going to college. We find solutions.

Amy: As people who raise whole families while also doing 12 other things. We all know we’re the problem solvers.

Anne: Also from behind the scenes, we’re solving all the problems, just not getting the credit for it.

Amy: Correct, I don’t wanna say we can handle the patriarchy, but we’ve lived in it so long. Men on the other hand, fare terribly from the patriarchy. The lies they’re told from the beginning of time limit them so much. I met a young man recently, and he was very distraught, upset. I said, “Hey, yo, what’s going on?” He started to cry.

He said, “My father told me that I’m if I cry.” And I was like, “Well, your father was wrong. You can cry. Here’s a tissue.” Gave him a big hug. And he really couldn’t tell me what was wrong with him without putting himself down at least 20 times, just for having emotions. And I thought, he’s 30. This human being can’t process grief, which was legitimate at that moment, without hurting himself, because the men in his life and culture told him all the wrong things. Along with counter parenting.

In books, I put a scene there, where boys list who they wanna kiss. And it’s a secret list. And then they run up to them and kiss ’em without permission to runaway. Now, I was kid in the seventies. This happened all the time, happened to my kids. My kids both got, same thing. Boy runs up to him, bam, kisses them. Maybe it’s a dare. This stuff comes early in life. If some second grader is running toward my child to kiss my child because he likes her, someone missed an opportunity to tell their child that’s not what happens.

Amy: You don’t do that. But this is what the culture is. And especially once she has your babies, you own her. She has to do what you say and act the way you want. If every five minutes what you want changes is she somehow has to keep up with that. I felt like I was tap dancing for three decades. We get these headlines about the male loneliness epidemic. Or what you believe women owe you. I’m like, no offense, but maybe if you’d stop being terrible.

Anne: Yeah sorry, I can’t stand those articles. And with counter parenting, I’m like, what in the world is happening?

Amy: I’d like to ask, a bunch of married women if there’s a loneliness epidemic for married women. There’s an epidemic for you. There’s been centuries of married women who are lonelier than ever. Maybe if men looked after that, maybe if that was written about. Men would go, “Oh.” But they wouldn’t, because the culture tells them to go phffft.

And then women say anything. It’s all a trap, and we’re all trapped in it. Every single one of us, every woman, man, child, everybody, every person is trapped in it. It’s a construct. And this is one of the reasons I live in a little artist’s bubble.

Anne: Speaking of the prologue, hit me really hard. Because the book that I’m writing is all about lies. I know I talk about how pornography is abusive but it really does, and my whole book is about this, come down to the lies.

Anne: Because if they didn’t lie, then he would say, “Hi, I am only interested in you because you have this Victorian home that has these tubes, and I know that if I marry you, I can use you for all this and I can stick you in one of them. So you seem like the perfect wife for me.”

Amy: Yes.

Anne: “Do you wanna marry me?” That would be the truth. And then she could say, “No, I don’t.” But the whole thing is built on lies, lies on top of lies. In my book, I say this one part, “Let’s just talk about pornography without the lies. Because they lie to us about porn or their affairs or other things that they’re lying to us about. Then I’m like, wait, the whole pornography industry is a lie.

There are so many layers of lies on top of lies. And without the lies, we could give consent. Some women might choose that, but so many women would be like, “I don’t want to marry you. If you have a mistress that you live with in an apartment.”

Amy: Anne, I need to tell you, it was your Instagram that made me understand informed consent in such a great way. And it really changed my mind about what I’d been living through. And realizing how many women are lied to, but also having sexual relationships with people who are lying to them.

Therefore, they are not informed, so that consent is null. And in the future, when they learn about the lies, all of those experiences are going to have a different flavor.

Amy: And it will feel exactly what it felt at the time, but you couldn’t say it out loud.

Anne: Right, it felt like that, but because you didn’t understand what was happening. You defined it the best way that you could. Maybe you put a silver lining on it. Maybe you explained this is how it works because you had no other way to process it. So in your processing it to empower yourself, which was your intention, it just played into the lies without you knowing. Which is so unfortunate, but that’s their intent. That’s what they want.

Amy: Absolutely, the lie is everything. And that’s why the book starts with the lies. The older I get, the more I realize this. And I remember hitting my forties and going, oh, and now I’m in my fifties. I’m like, oh, this doesn’t end. Everything’s about the lies that we’re taught. And on a larger level in the culture in our families, before we get into a relationship, and then inside the relationship with counter parenting.

But I love how you said if they just told the truth from the beginning, imagine they were like, look, I just wanna piss my wife off and you’re under 40. And I think that if we dated, that would work out great. And in a way, sometimes I appreciate the guys on online dating.

They’re like, I’m just into fun casual dates. That’s code. And we know it. But some of them actually mean it literally, that’s the funny part. They don’t realize that there’s other men out there who don’t mean it that way. I appreciate that they can at least admit it.

Amy: Something that my mother said to me. Her father was a severe alcoholic. He died of complications from alcoholism. He was also an abusive man. She said to me, “Amy, my father wasn’t an abuser because he was an alcoholic. He was an alcoholic because he was an abuser.”

Anne: Yeah.

Amy: And when you take someone who’s a truly benevolent human being. Who really just believes in the good in people, wants to have a great family, wants to be a great wife, wants to buy the Christmas gifts, and you put them with someone who is so callously lying all the time. She has to see a person she fell in love with. Always like you’re looking for the guy you married. He never existed, it wasn’t real. And that is a really hard thing to come to terms with, because you remember it.

I have a bonus of having kept journals my whole life. And I always said the first year was the one good year I had. It’s packed with all these notes and love letters. And I pulled one of them out and in it, in that year one, it was me pleading for forgiveness, for having hormones. Now, I was raised in a family where three girls and my mother was a high ranking administrator in a school system. You did not use hormones as an excuse ever.

And that’s not for me to take it away from people who have, definite mood swings because of hormones. The fact that’s held against us is ridiculous, ’cause look at the erratic, hormonal swings of men. But I really didn’t have those sorts of swings.

Amy: I can check what happened in year one. Look, it wasn’t as great as I thought it was. He was already grooming me to start blaming everything on me and all the responsibility. Also, I can see all the moves of isolation. So, that is the one thing that did get me to see what was going on . I wrote down every time anything happened that made me feel terrible, degraded me, or was abuse. And when I started keeping a log, it was very obvious what had to happen. This is why I think abusers keep you so busy.

Anne: Yeah, so you can’t notice. I was gonna tell you, so my book, that I am almost done writing, I am more of a essay writer. So writing an actual 350 page book was like the worst, I have to say.

I think you’re amazing. But, it’s the reason why. When you said, “I’d love someone to research.” Over the past year, I went through all of my podcast interviews again and listened to them. Like a research study. So based on all those interviews and all my experience with our clients and interacting with women over the years. I’m almost done. I really wanna get it right.

Amy: And it’s good for research too. Getting it right is the thing.

Anne: The whole thing including counter parenting is just about the lies.

Amy: Amen, thank you. That’s great. You’ve brought to me in this podcast just today, the lies, right? No matter what, no matter how many times I go through it, or how many times I think about it, the lies that you find out about afterward are unbelievable.

Amy: You could have said to me, would he ever do this? I would’ve said, never in my life will he do that. What’s interesting is that he probably said, oh, well she did that, never did that. I travel for a living. I had the opportunity to cheat a million times. Never did, not like I had the opportunity. I never looked for it. I’m sort of a dork who wants to be in my hotel room by myself. And it’s cool to order room service, and then I work. That’s it, I work. So I don’t wanna do that.

Most people think that other people think like they do. And one of the things I get asked, “What do you wish you knew when you were our age?”

I said, “This is gonna sound heavy, but I mean it too. And you guys are teenagers, so you’re gonna get it . Here’s the deal. Everybody tells you to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, especially if you happen to be born female. You wanna give everybody the benefit of the doubt. You have to be nice, kind, sweet to everybody. And you have to accept all this behavior. And anybody who’s being rude, they just don’t mean it. Anybody who’s being mean, they just don’t mean it. They don’t know how mean they’re being.

That’s not true. What’s true is that there are people in the world that want to hurt you, break you down, make you theirs, control you, lie about you, use counter parenting, and they wanna use you. The sooner you know that, the better. Because I didn’t figure that out till I was 50.”

Amy: And not just when it came to my romantic life, there were other people in my life who were very close to me, since I was a very young person who were doing that to me. So everything’s a lie. Why is it so hard to get help? When I finally had the guts to pick up the phone and I was 3,000 miles away from home, isolated and call the people closest to me. Whether they were family or friends, and say to them, but especially the family, this is what’s happening.

This is what’s really going on. I don’t know what to do, I need help. I need to get out of here. Nobody knew what to do.

Anne: Right, exactly.

Amy: That’s why Mina, Jane’s mother, does what she does. She helps people because nobody knew what to do. And it was as simple as send me a plane ticket. And I didn’t know to ask that though. I didn’t know to say I need a plane ticket. I’d only just said this for the first time after seven or eight years of this. And at that point, I was so beaten down as a human being, completely didn’t even know who I was anymore.

And I’m a strong, confident person, always have been in so many ways. I had no idea what to ask for, and no one knew what to offer. And if I could tell women out there, listen, the minute you’re 15 years old, this is what happens. They’re all your sisters. I don’t even care if they were the one competing with you yesterday. I don’t care if they were the one that was putting you down yesterday.

Amy: If they say, yo, I’m in this situation. What do I do? We all learn the answer. And try and help other women out because the more I am in the world, and the more I realize that this is way more common than the other, the perfect ideal relationship is a beautiful thing.

I know a few people in it, and is it the hardest work they ever did? Absolutely, man, it doesn’t come easy. But they have two adult people working toward the same thing. That is rare. That’s what I’m finding. The older I get, now that I can eat the senior meal at the diner. And I can tell you what, man, I don’t know many people who are in that situation, most are not.

Anne: Yeah, I could talk to you forever. You are incredible. So I’m like, oh, I can’t wait to talk to you again. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode to talk about counter parenting.

Amy: Anne, I’m always so happy to be on your side. Yeah, you’re doing great work. Thank you for what you do. Really in a huge way. And thanks for the conversation. You’re awesome, you rock. To be on this show and to be part of anyone’s journey to healing. It’s the most important thing in the world, fiction helps. Thank you

When your husband’s infidelity comes to light, the truth doesn’t just hurt, it can completely shatter your sense of reality. For many women, discovering your husband has had a secret life brings shock, confusion, and a desperate search for answers. Learning how to recover after infidelity isn’t about fixing the relationship; it’s about finding emotional safety, clarity, and courage to stop chasing explanations and start protecting your peace.

Women who go through this generally ask four questions:

So if you’re trying to figure out how to recover after infidelity, Bethany’s story will help you understand what emotional safety and clarity look like when the truth feels impossible. Discover if you are a victim, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Bethany. Like many women who contact BTR, she didn’t just deal with his lies, she dealt with the shock of realizing that her entire reality may have been built on lies.

Bethany: The first time I found them, I was getting ready for work and it popped up on his phone. And then I went down a rabbit hole, I guess, looking through his phone. I found out that he was messaging both men and women.

Anne: Today’s episode is about that moment of discovery, the one that changes everything. She found messages she wasn’t meant to see, and those messages exposed an entire secret life. This is her story about how to recover after infidelity.

Welcome, Bethany.

Bethany: Thank you.

Anne: I’m so grateful that you would share your story today. So, Bethany, let’s start at the beginning.

Bethany: I’m very grateful to have found Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. I was searching for some sort of support and community after everything that had happened. So when we were dating, things progressed quickly within our relationship.

He was successful in his work. I was successful in my work. He was charismatic, he made me laugh, he was into fitness, and that was important to him. Looking back, I may have ignored some pretty large red flags to focus on all the things I liked about him, like his personality and his physical appearance. Within the first month of dating, I could see there were a lot of highs and lows. And I focused more on the good rather than the lows.

Bethany: But, about two months into dating, I started seeing text messages. He was reaching out and soliciting oral sex and other inappropriate messages.

Anne: How did you find these texts ?

Bethany: The first time I found them, I was getting ready for work, and it popped up on his phone. And then I went down a rabbit hole, I guess, looking through his phone. I found out that he was messaging both men and women. I was not religious. He denied it was anything, and I don’t remember exactly what he said, but I did end up believing him.

Very quickly, we got engaged, and then we found out we were pregnant. There was more verbal abuse while I was pregnant. And ended up getting married a month later. So it was very quick. This is the person you’re giving your life to, and the one person you should trust the most. I found out that he watched pornography. He denied it. It’s extremely confusing. I didn’t know how to recover after infidelity.

Then, I found out he was on same sex dating apps and reaching out pursuing men and I’m wondering, is my husband gay? He’s always been very homophobic, almost, and critical of gay people. He would get very defensive if you confronted him about it, and I don’t know what any other explanation there is.

Anne: What explanation would he give?

Bethany: He said there was no excuse for his actions, except that he started watching pornography early, and it became more graphic which led to being curious about other things. He denied he is gay. He said he’s disgusted by what he has done.

Anne: I think the most confusing thing was that I couldn’t ever get a straight answer because the answers didn’t make sense. Because so many things seemed so, elusive. I’d try to hold onto it and I couldn’t quite. It would just disintegrate in my hands. I’ve come to believe he chose to do that. How to recover from infidelity when everything keeps shifting?

Bethany: Yeah, it’s a hard realization, and you wanna try to figure out the reasons why he’s lying or the causes of sexual addiction. But he made that choice. It doesn’t make sense to me. I’m like, if something disgusts me, why would you do it?

Anne: Well, it could have been that you didn’t wanna try it, but peer pressure or coercion. Women do things they don’t wanna do all the time due to coercion. So many women have sex when they don’t wanna have sex, due to coercion. I’ve never wanted to smoke cigarettes, so it’s never been difficult for me to not smoke cigarettes. Because no one was coercing him to look at gay pornography. People generally, from my experience, don’t look at gay pornography unless they want to.

Bethany: Exactly, at the end of the day, it was something you desired and wanted to do and chose. I think lying definitely was one of the hardest things, because when there are secrets, it’s hard to go from there. How do you trust someone after that?

Bethany: I first turned to the church, to my pastor, and she had me put together a list of boundaries. So I put it together all in writing. Because I believed God can work if you take that step and let the Holy Spirit lead you.

I did one COSA meeting, I felt like it was blaming me. Then like I started to feel like I was codependent and that’s why all of this happened. We did a marriage intensive.

Anne: For sex addiction?

Bethany: Yes, emotional intimacy and sex addiction. Because I feel like that is the first place you look when you’re trying to work with someone. I told my story within counseling and the church support groups. It brought on a whole different level of confusion and hurt. It was just, like distorted reality. Almost like I go out and have fun, and then pretend like it didn’t happen. I wasn’t facing the issue. I didn’t want to believe it. So I believed what he said, and then it just escalated to the point where I had no other choice. I had to get to the truth and learn how to recover after infidelity.

I was at work. He lost his job. It was over the weekend, and my husband is on phone all the time. And we have a baby. We were all spending time with the baby, having a family day, and went to bed that night. I find out he was, on his phone again, messaging on different dating apps. It was really traumatizing to see how many people that there were. And then there were explicit videos and messages.

Bethany: And how I came to find that I was on my five-year-old’s iPad and a location share came up. I recognized the name from early on in our relationship. It was a man and I asked him about it and he got very aggressive and upset. So I find out that he had this individual over while I was at work. I think I didn’t really know how to feel in that moment. I went through all of the stages of trauma and grief in terms of numbing and isolating.

It was just gut wrenching to think about the fact that he was messaging these things and asking someone to come over to our home with our children there. It added a whole other layer to my confusion. The person I loved and committed my life to has a secret life that you don’t know about. So I don’t know who this person is, and I’ve been sharing my life with a complete stranger. And there’s a lot of fear with that.

I was searching for more specific support from someone who had already been through it, other people that you can relate to. I came across BTR. And I was like wow, this is really, really helpful. I started listening to the podcast, and the resources made available through BTR helped me navigate that next step in learning how to recover after infidelity. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions gave me live support.

The BTR resources I’ve used a lot considering where do I go from here? I’ve been looking at how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change. And I’m still using that, because the signs of changing, you have to see consistently over time. It’s not something you can tell him to do.

Bethany: You said in there, don’t do it. So I didn’t, ’cause I wanted to know for myself if he was going to change. I utilize It as a guideline to determine if I’m going to stay in this relationship or what’s my exit strategy. I’m still evaluating. We separated, I first turned to my best friend, and she stayed with me. And then my mom flew in and stayed with me.

Anne: That’s exactly what to do because observing and just watching, you’ll always know the truth and that’s the safest place to be.

Bethany: Following the BTR podcast, hearing other people’s stories brought me additional comfort. And learning from those too. Cause I feel like it acknowledges the pain it caused, and being honest about the effects and consequences of the other’s actions. I think forgiving just means you’re doing it for yourself, and that the person owing the debt still owes that debt.

Anne: Yeah, they do. I think they sometimes don’t realize that part. Just because you forgive the debt doesn’t mean they still don’t owe it.

Bethany: Right, knowing other people have been through this same thing. And they’ve been able to leave, or move on, or whatever stage they’re in their process.

Anne: Whatever is the right thing for them to do. Because at BTR, safety is the most important thing, and everyone defines that in different ways. When you are figuring out how to heal after infidelity, I do feel like wives, for the most part, feel like keeping their marriage intact is the safest option, especially when you have kids.

Anne: So because you’re navigating a safety issue, what’s going to bring me the most safety is the better question. Has that been part of your process? Because that was for me. Divorce felt unsafe to me. And so that’s why I didn’t end up filing for divorce. Divorce seemed like the least safe thing of all my options.

Bethany: Yeah, especially with children, I think, and even if you don’t have children. Because you don’t want that to be the reason, you have to evaluate what is truly the safest, you know? I think just going back to each person’s situation will be different. But, I wanted other people to know if they have similar situations, that there are other people. you giving me this opportunity to share my story. It’s helped me so much to do this. And to talk with you and have this BTR platform. I hope it helps.

Anne: Yes, your story will. It will for sure help somebody.

Have you caught yourself thinking, my husband is ignoring me and feeling that knot in your stomach when the silence drags on?

You’re not making it up. Silence can be its own form of punishment, leaving you anxious, second-guessing, and desperate to fix things. In today’s episode, Mary shares how her husband used ignoring as a weapon, vanishing for weeks, shutting her out after their honeymoon, and withholding attention to stay in control.

If you’ve felt the sting of silence, this conversation will help you see what’s really going on.To see what types of emotional abuse you also experienced, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

When he withholds attention, it’s not an accident. Ignoring someone is often used to punish or control someone.

If advise you to open up more to him to try to get him to talk, that’s going to put you in more emotional danger.

No amount of extra effort, patience, tenderness on your part is going to solve his accountability problem. There’s nothing you can do to undo the choices he’s making. If he’s ignoring you, that’s entirely his problem.

At BTR, we know how long, lonely, and painful the road to healing can be. Don’t travel this road alone. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Mary. A large part of her story is that her husband ignored her, and I know a lot of you are dealing with that. A lot of times we feel like we need to repair something. If someone ignores us because they’re upset with us. Here’s a part of Mary’s story, and you’ll hear the context of what happened around this a bit later.

Mary: I thought, why is my husband ignoring me? I didn’t know what was going on, and I spent the whole time crying in another room. Thinking, this is tragic. I thought our marriage would be something kind and loving, but it wasn’t.

Anne: So Mary, I’m so sorry that ignoring you was such a big part of your story. Welcome.

Mary: Hi, Thanks for having me.

Anne: I’m so honored and grateful that you would share your story. So let’s start at the beginning.

Mary: I met my now ex-husband of 10 years at church. He was so godly. He was very exciting, had amazing stories. And he had this great contagious laugh. He was great around people, or so I thought.He is just checking all the boxes. Eventually, we started dating. In this church culture, there were many rules around intimacy. No sex before marriage. You could maybe hold hands, go on your date once a week, very structured and not very natural.

Anne: How old were you at the time?

Mary: I had just finished my master’s, so I was 26 or 27. We dated for one year, and on the anniversary of that year, he proposed.

Mary: But during the dating relationship, there were so many red flags that I didn’t know were red flags. I had no context for that. It was easy to make excuses, because he’s this great guy, spiritual, loving, thoughtful, serves at the church and always takes care of other people. And I didn’t know that was just a facade.

During that time, a lot of strange things would happen. I remember one time he just disappeared for a couple weeks. I was wrought with anxiety and worry, and I had no idea. Nobody had heard from him. We were in this tight-knit community. Everybody knew everybody’s business. Nobody knew where he was.

Anne: Wow, that’s like intense.

Mary: I tried reaching out, texting, calling, there was no response. I was trying to not overdo it. I don’t know about your experience with church culture and other people’s. But for me, you had to have this kind of privacy and respect for the other person, and not overdo it. Because then you idolized them. Eventually, he sent me a picture of his face with a black eye, and tells me this outrageous story about him and his brother getting into a brawl, and somehow he was the good guy trying to help direct his life. He’s the oldest of six.

They were refugees from communist Russia with this intense life. And he raised all of them, basically a parent to them.Anyway, I had had it, I had gone through all the emotions at this point. I was like, this guy doesn’t seem to care. I had gotten to a place where I was like, I’m not doing this, because I don’t wanna be involved with someone like this.

Mary: But somehow he said all the right things and got me back in, begged me, gimme just one more chance. And I thought, I guess that’s a good sign. I didn’t know what to make of this. So I forgave him, and within a month or two, he proposed. Looking back, I realized he saw how close he was to losing control of me. And so he had to do something to lock it down. I was starting to feel that church pressure of, well, you’re getting kind of old and you’re gonna have family, you’re gonna get married, you gotta do it soon.

I still believed this is a good guy. He’s just having a hard time. It’s easy to excuse what we think are blips in their behavior. When I think they take a mask off for a moment. ‘Cause they’re tired of pretending. And then you see the real them, thinking it’s the other way around.

Anne: Right, I have an interesting story I’ve never told before. I was dating a guy who was an abuser, and I didn’t know he was an abuser. And he was getting closer to maybe being serious, and suddenly, he just fell off the map, kind of what you’re saying. Couldn’t get a hold of him, like nothing.

He then reached out to me and said, “I’m back. I’m ready to move forward with our relationship. I just needed some time to think about it. I need to talk to our ecclesiastical leader to clear some things up, and then we can move forward.” Like you, I was ready to move on by the time he came back.

Anne: It was weird to me that he didn’t ask me how I was doing at all. It was like, I’m ready to move forward with you, so I’m gonna do this. And then we’ll move forward without asking me anything. So it turns out that while he was “taking that break to assess what he wanted out of his future.” He had gone and lived with a woman for three weeks and had sex with her a ton, and then realized he didn’t wanna marry her. He wanted to marry me. So our church excommunicated him. And came to me and said, “Okay, I got excommunicated, but I’m ready to move forward.”

And I was like, what are you talking about? I’m never talking to you again. We’re not dating. This pattern that he thinks he can do what he wants, and that you’re not gonna notice? Because during that time when they’re gone, they don’t think about us. They’re distracted doing the thing they wanna do. They’re not thinking how it affects us. They have such a lack of understanding that we are going through something during those times.

Mary: Yes, they are self-centered. In fact, we went to premarital counseling. The husband of the couple that was counseling us pulled me aside and in confidence said, “Hey, just so you know, while you were dating, he confessed to me about how he had gone to a bar one night and did some very questionable things with another woman. And I’m just trying to get him to confess it so that you and him both know that he did it.” I was shocked. At this point, my future husband is ignoring me and keeping secrets.

Anne: What?

Mary: He never did confess it. He just acted like he had no idea. And so I thought, well, what’s the truth then? Did he actually do something? He seems innocent and has no clue.

So we married. And the moment we leave the wedding reception and drive off to our honeymoon, that whole week we were gone, we fought. Oh my goodness. I didn’t even recognize this person. We slept in separate rooms. I cried every night, and when we got home from the honeymoon, he just ignored me. It was like I was invisible. I wasn’t even in the home as far as he was concerned. There was no consideration, no conversation, and I was devastated.

Anne: Wow.

Mary: So I am on the internet Googling annulment, and anything I can think of, what is this behavior? I don’t know why my husband is ignoring me. I couldn’t find any answers. So I finally called up his mentor in the church, one of his best friends. I just left a voicemail and said, “Hey, here’s what’s going on. I don’t know what to do. Can you talk to him?” I never heard from this friend of his, but the next day, he finally acknowledges me. He is on his knees begging me to forgive him, but I didn’t know what for. To this day, I still have no idea what he was doing for those months.

Anne: Wow.

Mary: The strange part is that, probably for the next two years, it was the most blissful marriage. We were partners, we talked about things, we were able to be connected. And I thought, oh, this is amazing.

Mary: And so one day, he says to me out of the blue that he’s tired of pulling the weight of this marriage. He is not doing it anymore. And that, if I want this marriage to work, I have to do all the work. I thought, when did he start feeling this way? I still don’t know what made him suddenly decide that I’m just this terrible wife.

It just went on like this over the years. Every so often he would throw me these curve balls and major ones like that. He would ignore me to get what he wanted. I was working and trying to rise up in my career. And he had complete control over all my paychecks. I couldn’t touch them. Everything I had, he took. At some point, I decided I just needed a secret stash. Like I need to have a couple hundred dollars tucked away in case I need gas for the car.

He caught whiff of it and became obsessed with finding it. One day I came home, and he had dumped all the contents of my closet all over the living room. He was becoming more and more unstable and erratic. And he starts, telling me, oh, you should be ashamed of yourself. At this point, I’m thinking, what am I not doing right? The whole mental load of running the home is on me. Like I do everything. And so at the time I’m just thinking, I just have to show him. I just have to work harder, be more submissive, more gentle with him.

Mary: He’s depressed, so maybe I need to make doctor’s appointments for him.

As the years went by it only got worse. He prided himself on the fact that he never hit me, but he was battering me emotionally. He’s like, “I’ve never hurt her” whenever I would bring it up with church counseling.

Things started escalating when my body could no longer tolerate this behavior. I was so stressed trying to make this work, trying to understand. We actually went to marital counseling. The very first session, he stars berating the therapist, questioning her authority. I think we went maybe twice. All it did was fan the flames of his anger.

Three or four years into the marriage, we started meeting with another couple in the church that felt more like peers. Every Sunday night, we would have dinner with this family. At one point, I confided in them. Hey, there is a problem here with alcohol. He’s going through a whole bottle of liquor in 24 hours. This is scary, he’s not well. And they both say we’re not going to bring it up until you’re ready. So what happened? The very next session, the husband brings up my ex-husband’s alcohol use. And confronts him with the details no one is supposed to know.

At the session with them in their home, my husband was very agreeable, humble, apologetic. “Yeah, I really need help. Thank you so much.” We get in the car to go home. My husband is upset with me for talking about him behind his back, sharing his dirty little secret. Well, he drives past our home and goes off to this dark isolated riverbank. I was terrified.

Mary: Yeah, he’s never laid a hand on me. But what if tonight’s the night? He’s so mad, and he had this evil, horrible presence. I thought he could actually kill me. It was so scary. I froze in fear.

At one point, he just turned home, and I knew better than to say a word. I was just silent and hoping I wouldn’t ignite it or make it worse. That presence that I felt in him that day was terrifying. I didn’t think it could escalate, but it did. It got to where he was punishing me. Like, “You need to sit in the corner on your knees as punishment until I say.” Or he would jokingly put his hands around my neck. Really, these are veiled threats.

Anne: Even not so veiled threats. They’re overt threats with a smile on his face.

Mary: That’s right. It got to the point where he was leaving his handgun laying around. It would just be laying around. With the way his behavior was lining up with a gun in our house, that was scary for me. Plus, I live where I have no family. I felt isolated. I called up a friend and said, “What do I do?”

And her advice was, “Why don’t you take a weekend, pack a little bag. Take some time and think it through without his presence weighing on you?”

I said, “Oh, that’s a great idea.” But even then, I was so scared to leave, because what would he do if I left? So I went and stayed with some mutual friends.

Mary: And I remember him calling around, threatening all of our acquaintances and friends. So people were finally starting to see some of what I was dealing with.

They told me, “We can’t have you here anymore, so we will relocate you an hour away.” I had tried to go back to get more of my things. He had changed the locks on the house. So, I ended up breaking into my own home to get my things. I found my wedding dress ripped to shreds, our wedding pictures smashed all over the floor with divorce papers, his wedding ring, and the gun all piled up.

Anne: It changed from my husband is ignoring me to fear tactics. You just said divorce papers.

Mary: Blank divorce papers.

Anne: So he got blank divorce papers and staged them in your house.

Mary: Yes, as a threat, or a way to scare me. So I go onto the third location, and I’m at my friend’s house with my car. The title was in my name, as was our home. I bought one of those steering wheel clubs to lock the car.

He didn’t have a key to the club, but he had a key to the car. That night, he came over to get the car, and he couldn’t take it. So he pulled out a four inch knife systematically, calmly, slashing all my tires. That was so scary, I got a restraining order. I have this restraining order, and I’m working with the elders of the church and with different mentors, peers, friends. And a lot of the advice is that you just need to focus on your own spirituality.

Mary: So I’m thinking, all I know is that I made a vow to this man before God. I couldn’t imagine standing before God, on judgment day, trying to explain myself, why did I rip up my marriage? Because I still couldn’t see that my husband is ignoring me as abuse, after all that. I spent about a year separated from him, trying to save my marriage.

Anne: So you’re wondering why is my husband doing this, and no one you talk to is saying this is clearly abuse as well?

Mary: Nobody spelled it out that way.

Anne: People rarely, if ever look you straight in the face and say, you are in danger. This is abuse.

Mary: Over the course of that year of that restraining order, there were provisions on it. He could email me about our bills, financial things we had to keep in order, and each time he as behaved more in line with what I needed, I would become more lax. At one point. I dropped it because he had started behaving so angelically.

I’m so sad for myself at that point. If I had only known. But we get back together and have a child, so by then it had been eight years of marriage. And we’re living in that same home, and he still has this drinking problem. And he would just do things that were really scary. I eventually got to the point where I remember being on my knees, begging, God, can you please just take him out of my life? Can you please do something? If you’re not willing to do that, at least give him a DUI so that he stops driving drunk and possibly hurting other people.

Mary: I kid you not. I get a call at 3:00 AM from the jail, him crying, saying he’d been arrested for a DUI. I couldn’t believe it. And I thought in that moment, God has my back. He really does. And I can get outta this, but it wasn’t until my daughter was almost two years old, when the final straw happened. She was crying, she called out Mama over and over, and he shut her in the room, locked the door and wouldn’t let me go in. I remember just putting my head on the doorframe, realizing this is never going to get better.

If I can’t even have connection with my child, what am I doing here? So I called up my therapist and I said, is this abuse? Is this domestic violence?

Anne: So from the time you think my husband is ignoring me to now, how long had you been going to therapy, until you thought can my husband change?

Mary: For maybe six years.

Anne: I’m just shocked. You realize how insane that is. You’ve told the therapist all of these stories.

Mary: So, she says, “Yes. It’s the worst case in my career I’ve ever seen.”

Anne: This is why I don’t recommend therapy. It’s not that this therapist is a bad person or anything, but you’ve been going to her for six years. At this point, she says it’s the worst case she’s ever seen. Instead of telling you, you don’t need therapy, he’s an abuser. So I am not gonna see you anymore. You do need to go to the domestic violence shelter, though, because there’s nothing wrong with you other than being abused. That would’ve been the appropriate thing to tell you. You don’t need therapy, but you do need safety.

Mary: Absolutely, I got all my ducks in a row. I started going to centers that help abused women. I got a grant where they paid for me to get a mover and a truck. The day I was going to leave, I got a call from a domestic violence fatality specialist. She says, “Hey, I heard your story, this one bedroom apartment just opened. It’s not even cleaned yet. They’re still moving out, but it’s yours if you want it.”

They let me stay for two years, and while I was there, I got my career going again, started saving money, figured out babysitting, finalized the divorce, the whole nine yards. There are so many miracles that no one can convince me that God wasn’t helping me. And what I finally realized was God would never want someone’s safety and wellbeing and their mental clarity compromised. I matters to God. Once I figured that out, I thought, ” I don’t owe anybody anything. I need to be safe.”

Anne: I’m so glad you had those resources available to you. The social safety net is so important. I had somebody ask me, if you could wave a magic wand, and be like, what could stop domestic violence? The two things are healthcare available for everyone and childcare available for everyone. Because women can’t get a job that would pay for childcare. And so then you’re just stuck. And also, so many women who are abused have serious health problems and need insurance. They can’t pay for insurance because they have their health problems.

Mary: I know. There were so many things that pointed toward him being the problem. After I left, I could see that more clearly.

Anne: Originally the issue was your husband is ignoring you. Talk about what you noticed once you could observe him from a safe distance. How did your mind start to clear?

Mary: Once I got my own place, I could see much more clearly these games that he’d been playing, and that gave me a little more power and autonomy over my own actions, decisions, and thoughts. I knew I could go ahead and move on with my life. And he’s gonna make a fuss and act out and say all these things, but probably nothing will come of it.

Anne: To manipulate us, they know that we need to believe them and pay attention. In the Living Free Workshop, I teach safety strategies to help women perceive what he’s doing differently, so that they can create space in their own minds. If they can’t create any physical space at that time, or if they don’t want to create physical space. Some women don’t want to get divorced. I felt that way, and you felt that way. So we totally understand. Especially when the institutions around us, like therapy and clergy, didn’t give you the right information.

I think that is so insane that our society is set up so that an abuse victim who doesn’t understand that she’s being abused can actively go to get help and still not understand that she’s being abused for years. Because of the institutions and the way they respond to abuse. Most of the time, they don’t know it’s abuse either.

Mary: A friend of mine who’s a licensed clinical social worker recommended your podcast to me.

Mary: As I listened to your podcast, I started looking forward to this validation that this guy is in his own class of special. And there are a bunch of guys out there that do this to women like me. I would sit there with my headphones on my breaks at work and try to cram in as much as possible, because I knew this is giving me strength to keep healing after the fact.

Anne: I’m so glad. You sound incredible, smart, capable and successful, and you’re a good mom. I’m grateful for women like you who share their story. It still makes me feel better after all these years. Because your story sounds like mine. The details are different, but the pattern is the same, and it is so validating. It’s nice to be part of a sisterhood of incredible strong women who are smart, who were manipulated, and it’s no fault of our own. Maybe they relate to you and how your husband is ignoring you at first.

You’ve mentioned God a few times, and then I also hear your hesitation about the church, which makes complete sense. I’ve been in that exact same space where, you know God is coming through for you, but the institution itself, at least in this case, was very damaging.

Mary: I would say that with the church I was attending for about 20 years, their involvement in my situation was horrifyingly, hands off. There were members here and there, who I could trust and talk to. When I would go to the elders, they wanted to sit down with him and I together and talk about what was going on. They don’t know what to do when my husband is ignoring me.

Mary: Looking back, that is not helpful at all, because I’m just getting re-traumatized, re-abused with them, seeing it or him gaslighting, everybody. in these therapy sessions with elders, they’re all seeing a different side of him. The side of him that I initially thought I had fallen in love with. Nobody’s really addressing the underlying issue of abuse.

Anne: They should never ever pull him in to talk to him about it. Even if the victim wants them to. if they understood abuse, they would say, that’ll actually put you in more danger. Which is why I don’t recommend men’s programs anymore. Any confronting him whatsoever about his behavior will not help you see what he is like.

Letting women know that going to therapy or clergy can go bad, ’cause they can abuse you worse overtly, or covertly. Meaning they can groom a lot better, and that gives them the opportunity to do that. And that’s the most dangerous, is when they can hide their true nature.

Mary: A hundred percent agree. The grooming is scary because it’s so easy to be blinded to it, and it’s not just the victim, it’s everyone around too.

Anne: For any woman listening, maybe this is their first podcast they’ve ever listened to, and maybe they’re wondering like, is it abuse? Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? What would you say to them from my husband is ignoring me to other abuses, and what you’ve been through?

Mary: What I would say is when somebody shows you, their true colors, believe them. When they make you feel anxious, stressed out, and then blame you.

Mary: If you feel uncomfortable or ask yourself, why is this marriage or this relationship so hard? Your marriage is probably involving somebody who’s abusive.

Honestly, listening to this podcast helped me sort through many uncertainties. By the time I found this podcast, everything I had been through made so much more sense. From my husband is ignoring me to overt abuse. I think if there’s any confusion about your situation, don’t brush it off. Listen to your instincts. If you’re not comfortable, your body’s not comfortable, there’s a reason, and it’s probably not you.

Anne: Can you talk about post-separation abuse and the stuff you had to deal with since you separated and divorced.

Mary: Oh man, it’s been tough, honestly, having any communication at any point. It’s almost as bad as when we were in our 10 year marriage. We are seven years post-divorce. He’s pretty manic and depressive at times, and demanding.

I went through the Living Free Workshop, and I got to this one section and it talked about my brain. There’s this image of your brain filled with all this abuse, taking up so much space in your life and your thoughts, and you feel so squeezed out.

And the visual is so clearly depicted, showing what it’s like to be the victim. There’s no room for you. There’s no space for your own thoughts or desires. It’s all about catering to this unstable person who is controlling your life. That was when I thought, this is going to be a good workshop because Anne gets it. It’s like walking through it with a good friend who understands what they’re gonna say, how they’re gonna react, why they’re doing it, what their goal is.

Mary: When I got to the end of the workshop, I had to respond to something from him that was super coercive and controlling. I thought, oh, perfect. I’m gonna finish these last few lessons in this workshop. And I’m gonna figure out how to respond and see if this works. I implemented those strategies, and I didn’t get any lip back, I got no punishment. I thought, this is exactly what I needed all these years. And I wish I had found this sooner. I thought, oh my goodness, this is what women need to know

Anne: I wanna talk about that, because many people might perceive there’s something you can do to improve your situation. Even when my husband is ignoring me. I wanna make it clear that you’re not changing him in any way. What the Living Free Strategies enable women to do is see him for who he is, predict what he will do.

Mary: Absolutely, I think what you’re saying is spot on. It’s almost like your eyes are opened to what their game is, and now you have the rules. So now you’ve got a playbook. And it’s just a different type of strategy that feels counterintuitive. None of their communication is based on actually trying to solve anything. They just want the dopamine hit of confusing you and making you struggle. To communicate more strategically puts the power back in my court.

Anne: I’ve mentored so many women through that divorce process using these strategies. After doing the workshop, their messages are absolutely court approved.

Anne: If this guy’s like, “Look how terrible she is, look at her messages.” They show up to court, and every time they’re like, “These are great.” The way she presents looks good in court. It looks good to anybody else. If he shows those messages to anybody, they’re gonna be like, this is fine. It’s like win-win for you. The other thing is that it doesn’t give him what he wants, so it’s confusing to him. They’ve always been able to manipulate your emotions. The “husband is ignoring me” is a tactic.

Can you talk about the counter intuitiveness of the Living Free Workshop? I think people think that maybe it’s the stuff they’ve heard from another influencer, like Gray Rock or maybe, something they heard from a therapist, like how to communicate. And it’s so different. It’s not anything a therapist would say.

Mary: This Living Free Workshop helped immensely. As a victim, most of us we’re really kind, we’re good hearted. We wanna solve problems, we wanna work together. You’re always trying to have this honest vulnerability and I think that’s what you take away, is that emotional vulnerability. But it doesn’t look like it in your messages to this person. You don’t make yourself vulnerable to this person in that sense of trying to solve the problem.

Anne: Having been abused post-divorce for eight years myself, before I came up with these strategies, people would tell me, just don’t let him affect you And I was like, that is crazy. So post-divorce, I did not experience any physical violence.

Anne: So this is an analogy, because when they are emotionally abusive or psychologically abusive, you discover a lie. Again, they’re undermining your children, it feels like a punch to the gut. So I’m going to use that analogy, even though I’m not actually talking about physical violence here. So every time he’s lying about the kids, it feels like a punch, and so the analogy is if he’s punching me in the face.

I have a bruise, and you’re telling me, just don’t get a bruise. It’s not possible. What the strategies do is put a barrier between you and his fist. So, he’s punching, but, it’s not touching you. The more I did the strategies, the more he kept punching, and it was almost like I was in this protected bubble.

Mary: That’s a great analogy. Yep. I am no longer getting punched in the face, even though it doesn’t stop them from trying. It’s not about stopping them, it’s all about, Hey, you know what? You wanna be this type of person. Go ahead, I don’t wanna be exposed to that type of person. I’m not opening the door for you.

Anne: Yes.

Mary: I’m not allowing you to have access to me.

Anne: The Living Free Workshop came together after years of interviewing women and my own study and all kinds of experimentation. A well-known addiction recovery therapist would tell the men that he worked with, as long as your wife is angry, then we have something to work with. The thing you need to fear the most is apathy, which he was legit teaching them how to manipulate women. Would he say that he was doing this? No, he was saying he was, saving marriages. A “husband is ignoring me” is a tactic for manipulation.

Anne: If you’re saving marriages through teaching this man how to manipulate his wife better or exploit her more, you’re not saving a marriage. You are enabling an abuser.

Because your story involves that your husband was a pornography addict, I’d like to talk about that specifically. Another part of the Living Free strategies in relation to pornography addiction or addiction recovery is that a lot of addiction therapists will say something like, connection is the solution to his addiction. Or couple therapists will be like, the problem is you’re not connecting on an emotional level.

And so then in couple therapy or addiction recovery therapy, you become more vulnerable with someone who is just using all those things to manipulate you. Including my husband is ignoring me. So it becomes exponentially worse for you throughout that process. Looking back, can you talk about how that affected you?

Mary: I didn’t even realize when we got together that any kind of sexual addiction, pornography addiction was even on the table. We got together through church, so it didn’t occur to me that there would be anything immorally going on with him. During that time, he would get really moody, and I remember thinking, I don’t wanna deal with this.

This is how my Christian boyfriend is treating me and we’re not even engaged or married or anything. It wasn’t until we got engaged that he started talking about how we need to confess our sins. We really need to be honest about what we’re getting into as a marriage and like our commitment. We got together with another couple in the church who were gonna do our premarital counseling. And during that time it came out that he would look at pornography.

Mary: And that’s when he started saying, “Well, we need to be open and honest and confess our sins to each other.” And I tell you what, and it was like he would confess this to me every time I saw him, I was like, what is wrong? I thought, maybe it’s just because he’s so excited to get married and then we can finally have intimacy.

We followed all the rules and then we get married and I realize, I am in this deep black abyss of sin with this man. It was scary to see how deep involved in it he was. I could always tell when he had been looking at pornography because his mood would shift.

He would become very punishing. He would become very cruel. We got home from our, horrible honeymoon. We just fought the whole time because he wanted sex to go a certain way. It felt really unnatural and not loving to me. I didn’t really know what was going on and now my husband is ignoring me. I spent the whole time crying in another room and I thought, this is a tragic sad way to enter into a marriage covenant. I thought it was gonna be something kind and loving but it wasn’t. We get home from this honeymoon and I feel like a ghost.

I’m just living in this house with this guy who I feel like I don’t even know. So I’m online looking up annulments. How do I get out of this? What does God think? Questions you start having and not feeling like there was anyone I could talk to because it was such bizarre behavior. I had never heard of anything like this. As the years went by, it was the same pattern.

Mary: He’d become very mean and abusive and angry and sullen and pouty. I started to recognize the pattern. He’s been looking at pornography.

So then I started to bring it up because I don’t wanna live in this sullen and guilty, stressed out environment where my husband is ignoring me all the time and so I thought, let me address it. I’ll bring it up, and I’ll just try to forgive him. After a while, you get numb to it. In the beginning, I’d be heartbroken. I would be sad or like, what’s wrong with me? That you don’t want me. I’m the real thing. Like I’m a real woman that you can have sex with. I’m your wife.

Anne: Yeah.

Mary: But then he doesn’t prefer that. He doesn’t want that ever. It was always on the screens alone, behind closed doors by himself. And I thought, this is exhausting. I’m gonna confront it. I’m not gonna live like this. And then it became my responsibility. It was like his sin, his problem, and his addiction became my issue to confront, deal with, address and forgive.

And if I didn’t forgive him correctly then, I was the one to blame. Because I wasn’t understanding enough. And if I would just be nicer about it, then he could trust me to be vulnerable on his own. And it was almost like he was twisting this whole narrative around to make it my fault that he was choosing to be unfaithful to me with these explicit images.

Anne: Right.

Mary: I was absolutely not on board. He knew how much it broke my heart every single time.

Mary: And then I was the one having to ask him to forgive me for not being vulnerable or supportive or fill in the blank with whatever nonsense.

Anne: We see this pattern happen and then we try to anticipate it and do something to change it. In my situation, I would fight him like, Hey, you’re acting weird. Are you looking at pornography? I would confront him. Near the end when I used a few Living Free strategies, not really knowing what I was doing, just experimenting. I just ignored him and took a step back and saw that their pornography use has two benefits to them. Number one, they get to watch porn all they want, and then number two, you are doing all this work.

And so it’s like win-win for them. I didn’t know that was manipulation on his part. It’s not your fault that you were trying to anticipate what to do to manage the situation. He wanted you to do that. You were attempting to protect yourself. You thought that was the good way to do it, because that’s what he manipulated you to think. But that’s also what everybody else is saying. Like if he is feeling sad and grumpy, what can you do for him? How can you be kinder? So that this won’t happen.

Mary: I wish that I had had access to the Living Free Workshop during all of that chaotic time being married to him. There is one strategy that would’ve given me my mental sanity back despite his chaos. There’s this one step by step in Living Free, where you think about what’s the problem.

Mary: Okay, he is gonna look at pornography. Why? Because he wants to do what he wants and he wants to see me cry. So what then? I’ll cry and he’ll look at pornography, I guess. And then what? And you keep going through, all right, so then you’ll cry, and then eventually the reality is he’s gonna do whatever he wants either way.

So what do I wanna do? I can’t change the fact that he’s gonna look at these images. I can’t change the fact that it feels like he’s being unfaithful to me. And I can’t change the fact it hurts my heart and soul and I’m being crushed in all these ways. And my husband is ignoring me. So maybe we don’t have closeness or I sleep in a different room or maybe we get divorced or I go stay at my mom’s house.

When you take a minute and you think it all through, it takes away that fear. Because it gets down to the nitty gritty of what is the end result that you’re so afraid is gonna happen.

You come around to this acceptance of I really can’t make them do anything or stop anything. That was something that, I found very eye-opening because there’s this underlying assumption that somehow I could fix this.

Anne: Mm-hmm.

Mary: And you realize, all you can do is protect yourself, and then learning how to protect yourself was so valuable.

Anne: And it’s no wonder that we think that we can improve the situation because they manipulate us to think, if we only did this, he would make a different choice. If we looked better, he wouldn’t wanna look at pornography.

Anne: So you’re like, okay, I’ll reduce his stress as much as possible. And he’s manipulated the therapist or clergy or anybody else to also think that this is a couple problem and that you can do this together. You can’t do it together ’cause it’s not your problem. I think the other issue is so many therapists will talk about boundaries. Like, did you tell him what your boundaries were? You just haven’t set up your boundaries correctly or something. And I’m like, what are you talking about?

If you say to someone, I don’t want you to look at pornography, he can still look at it. If you are like, what actual thing am I going to do to protect myself that I’m not gonna say to him that I’m not gonna say to anybody else that if he looks at pornography when he comes home and says, what’s for dinner? I’ll be like, i’m gonna eat at my sister’s house. That’s a totally different way of seeing and viewing boundaries where you don’t even say a word about it.

And that’s something entirely within your control and it actually works and he can’t cross it. There’s no way for him to cross it because you haven’t told him what it is. You’re just doing it.

Mary: There’s no negotiating. I like what you were saying about how he keeps convincing you with his behaviors and manipulation that you can fix it. The manipulation is to keep you engaged. My husband is ignoring me is a tactic for manipulation. They’ve gotta have somebody engaged, arguing with them, crying about it, serving them.

Mary: They have to convince you on some level that you need to stay engaged. Even if my husband is ignoring me. And maybe it’s because you have a certain set of morals. This is a good Christian girl, like it was in my case.

Anne: I do wanna point out, at the back of Living Free, I use my own faith to explain what I thought Christ wanted me to do, for any Christian, scriptures, like, don’t cast your pearls before swine or agree with your adversary quickly. Agree with your adversary quickly sounds like you’re being nice to them, but the second part of that is so he doesn’t throw you in jail. And so Christ is saying to you, pretend like you agree with him so he doesn’t throw you in jail. You don’t have to actually agree with him. Don’t cast your pearls before swine. Your pearls are things that matter.

The Living Free strategies, make it so that you don’t give him anything of value. That includes your thoughts, your goals, your feelings. Those are valuable things. So, there’s a part in Living Free where I pause to say, what are your values? This fits within a Christian value system. Christ talks about it all the time, and I don’t know why clergy are not focused on scriptures that actually benefit women and help set them free.

In the back of the Living Free Workbook, it shows you, there’s 1600 places it talks about separation and casting out devils, and only 400 that talk about forgiveness. Did you see that graph at the back of the workbook?

Mary: I did. And it makes me think about the scripture that says to be as shrewd as a snake, but innocent as a dove.

Anne: Yes, especially when my husband is ignoring me.

Mary: You’re not doing anything wrong, but you can be strategic in how you communicate. I think this really opened up my eyes to the truth of a lot of things I wasn’t aware of. Honestly, I feel excited to do the message strategies now that I’ve done the Living Free Workshop.

I think for anyone who’s wondering about this Living Free Workshop, just do it. What can you possibly lose? After so many years of being given either bad advice or no advice or empty promises or blame, I found that going through this workshop, was like a breath of fresh air. These are not strategies any of those other resources provided me. Not my church elders, not my therapist, not my friends, not my family.

Nobody could tell me the things that were in the Living Free Workshop. Support that you’re just not gonna find anywhere else. You really aren’t. I’ve looked, I’ve read so many books, I’ve listened to so many podcasts and gone to so many different therapists. Like, you can just try the Living Free Workshop and it’s gonna change things for you. Implementing the strategies, I already see results. I can’t imagine why you wouldn’t try it, to be honest, because it’s just so helpful.

And there’s this whole section in here about your financial safety, your physical safety. I had to figure out on my own, what kinds of financial things do I need to be thinking of and I wish I had the workshop. Just tangible, effective things to be asking, to think about.

Mary: Questions you need to ask your lawyer, not because you necessarily need it right now, but you might. I know I did. I just think for people who are in the middle, wading through the weeds of it all, this workshop gives you so much detail to consider and you can get into the detail as much or as little as you want.

Anne: It’s awesome that with the domestic violence shelter gave you a space to live. They’re very helpful in some very specific ways, but when it comes to writing a message, they don’t know what to do. e.

Mary: Right, your body is safe but what about my spirit or my mind or my emotions, my child? Like how do I create a safety zone in all these other realms. All they care about, and thank God they at least care about your physical safety. But that’s the really the only element of safety I got out of it.

Anne: Yes. Living Free is also for women still in the relationship I just put all the information in there.

Like you can use it however you want, but that way you’ll be educated about all of it so that if anything comes your way, you’ll be prepared for it. Even if you’re just suspecting is my husband lying to me? If you did Living Free, it would show you how to find out if he’s lying to you without asking him.

Mary: Right.

Anne: So just having the basic steps in the back of your mind is very helpful because it keeps you safe no matter what happens.

Anne: In some states he has to actually have left bruises to get a protective order. And if you don’t have a crime, you’re never gonna get a space in the shelter, for example. So where do you get help, if nobody knows what to do. if people think that divorce is the answer, they don’t understand what it’s like.

Mary: It’s not the answer that will end his behavior. In my experience, that’s when it escalates.

Anne: Yes.

Mary: That’s when you have to really have a solid plan and know exactly how to protect yourself. You need to have that in order before before you go.

Anne: If I would’ve had Living Free, I would’ve done everything differently and it would’ve gone exponentially better. Now, it’s not my fault that it didn’t go well. It’s his. He was abusing me, manipulating me. I didn’t know. Nobody told me. The domestic violence shelter didn’t tell me. It’s almost like they want women to start from scratch. Every single woman who goes through this, rather than using that collective experience, which is what is in Living Free. This is the stuff every woman needs to know before they even meet the guy.

Before they’re even in a relationship. This is stuff that you need to know, period. It’s gonna keep you safe in any relationship that you have, but especially, if you’re dealing with an emotionally or psychologically abusive husband.

Mary: Anyone could go through this workshop. I don’t care if you’re in a relationship or not, it’s almost like a pre-course to, equip yourself, have your tools, and all the things you need because you need to know who you’re dealing with.

Anne: Yeah. It gives you enough space to actually see who he is. So many women think the answer is to ask about pornography. Before I got married, I asked, and he said he didn’t use it. But if he’s lying, talking won’t protect you. Watch what he does: the “my husband is ignoring me” pattern, disappearing acts, mood flips. Those behaviors tell the truth, and knowing what they indicate helps keep you safe.

Mary: Yes.

Anne: Mary, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. I appreciate you so much.

Mary: My pleasure. It’s so great talking with you, Anne. Thanks for having me.

Co-parenting with a narcissist seems impossible. I know I’ve been there. If your husband or ex is narcissistic, here are 7 ways your he might try to undermine you and your kids, along with 7 ways to overcome it.

To find out how bad it is, see which of the 19 different emotional abuse tactics he uses. Take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Co-parenting with a narcissistic parent requires a strategic and mindful approach. Here are seven ways to make the process more tolerable:

Since communication is just another way for the narcissist to manipulate us, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we’ve learned that we can’t count on communication to resolve anything. It helps when you know that communication won’t do anything to stop him from causing chaos. Instead, use effective boundaries that don’t need to be “communicated”, like the ones we teach in The Living Free Workshop.

To learn how to set boundaries strategically, consider enrolling in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop.

“I’d been to so many therapists. They just kept telling me to “set boundaries”. What a joke. It never worked. But then I enrolled in The Living Free Workshop at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and holy cow do these ladies know what they’re doing. I could tell immediately they’d been through it. And figured out safety from these dudes. Thanks so much BTR!!!”

Parenting apps can help, because everything is documented. There are calendars and info banks to use to limit communication as much as possible.

Taking care of your own physical and emotional well-being is crucial when co-parenting with a narcissistic parent. Engage in activities that bring you joy and relaxation, and seek support from friends, family, or an online support group for women.

Keep your focus on what’s best for your children. Avoid hurting your children by promoting their narcissistic dad’s behavior as “love”. Instead, say, “I’m so sorry. I felt that way too. He hurt me too. I’m sorry he doesn’t seem capable enough to love someone as lovable as you.”

Surround yourself with a supportive network of friends, family, and professionals who understand your situation and can offer guidance and encouragement. If you need support, here’s our daily group session schedule.

Educate yourself about narcissistic behavior and its impact on co-parenting. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to hear other women’s stories and how they coped.

Anne: Tammy Guns is here today. She’s going to share her story. She started her career in auditing and accounting for two big four public accounting firms. Then she served in leadership roles in large scale healthcare organizations before her career as a certified divorce financial analyst. Her expertise extends beyond the advisory realm as a trusted expert witness in courtrooms, offering invaluable insights, utilizing forensic accounting.

She has also served on two boards of directors and completed Deloitte’s certification program for women board readiness. We will talk about co-parenting with a narcissist. Welcome, Tammy.

Tammy: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk with you today.

Anne: You mentioned that your personal story is part of what interested you in becoming a certified divorce financial analyst. So can we start there?

Tammy: Yes, well, you can only connect the dots backwards. And when I look back to my dating of him. There were so many signs that showed he was a narcissist, but I was so young.

My wonderful father was incredibly involved in our lives. I’m one of four children. When I met my ex husband, I did not believe a man could not be a good husband and a good father, because I had such an amazing example of one. I was right out of college when I met him. I was just captured. He’s good looking, charismatic. He’s super intelligent. He was a football player in college. I’m like, of course, he’ll be a good dad, of course he’ll be a good husband, because that’s what I had as an example, and I was looking for all the wrong things.

Tammy: Today, I’d have a phone conversation with him and realize absolutely what a narcissist he is. And co-parenting with a narcissist can feel impossible.

Anne: Well, we don’t know. It’s not our fault. I think even if you learned about narcissism, until the mask comes off, you still wouldn’t know that they were a narcissist. We don’t even have the context for it. You might see the red flags. But because of your context, you think, oh, he’s tired or stressed out. So to say, people saw red flags and then ignored them. I would say people saw the red flags, and the context they had for them was not that context.

Anne: Knowing what you know now, what would you do differently? It’s like, would you do anything different? When you knew what you knew then. And the answer is always I couldn’t do anything different.

Tammy: Correct, I couldn’t. So I was married for about 17 years when my then husband came home and basically said to me, “I’m done being married to you. I know how much you love the children, so you can have them.” It was pretty traumatic to have the rug pulled out from underneath me.

So I ended up going on the journey of a divorce, certainly not understanding anything that was going to happen. In today’s environment, it’s more of a 50/50 situation. But, I went from being a stay at home mom to going back into the workforce, as well as having the children a hundred percent by myself. I do have four college degrees, so I was in the workforce for a while, but at the time I was a stay at home mother.

Anne: Wow, that is very unique. I don’t hear that every day, where you got them 100 percent of the time. So many women, at least who listen to this podcast or who are co-parenting with a narcissist, are fighting these narcissists or abusers in court for years. So that is like a miracle. Was that happening with many people back then?

Tammy: Even back then, dads had the kiddos every other weekend, probably one night during the week for dinner, like a Wednesday night. What happened in my particular situation is that my ex went through a midlife crisis. He started dating a 25 year old girl who reported directly to him at work. His midlife crisis was, not only do I not want to be married, I also don’t want the responsibility of caring for children. He wanted to travel the world with her, do all sorts of fun things, and of course children get in the way.

At the time, I was incredibly scared. How will I take care of these children full time, as well as work full time? But as you said, Anne, in hindsight, it was the greatest blessing that could ever happen. That way I did have the children by myself as far as not co-parenting with a narcissistic parent.

I spent 10 years in court with him, but it wasn’t over the time with the children. It was a matter of him actually paying me. Our ink was not even dry on our divorce decree, and he was already not paying me spousal support, not paying me child support, et cetera, et cetera.

Tammy: So I was unfortunately wrapped up in the court system for a very long period of time. Until my youngest child went off to college, but I never had to fight him for time. Like I said, I feel fortunate.

Anne: How did you know that he was a narcissist?

Tammy: He told me, on our wedding night, I will not fail. I do not fail at anything. And so I believed our marriage was for the rest of our lives. I didn’t think he would want to be divorced, because that would be a “failure”.

Of course, everything’s crystal clear in hindsight. But certainly not when that’s happening. I looked up a lot about narcissists. He meets the Mayo Clinic definition of a narcissist, like every point. He lacks empathy. I know that many times people throw the word narcissist around loosely. And that could be just somebody who’s self-absorbed, but he actually meets the Mayo Clinic definition. He didn’t physically abuse. However, emotional abuse has lasting scars.

Anne: And talking about emotional and psychological abuse, which the court doesn’t recognize. And so there’s no way to protect your kids through the courts, because of the current climate of not recognizing it. And so that’s why we have a workshop that teaches women how to strategically face co-parenting with a narcissistic ex.

So let’s talk about court and the problems that happened in court regarding the payment. Even though you had children a hundred percent of the time. And my guess is you had a ton of proof.

Tammy: First of all, depending on what state you are in, you may or may not have a dedicated family court system. Now, why is that important? In my particular case, there was no dedicated family court. So therefore, you would have judges just rolling off the criminal bench. And now they’re like, Oh, hello, I’m in the courtroom. And now let’s talk about family law. My ex was a chief financial officer, a very good looking man, very articulate.

Who would be able to go into court and look the part and talk the part. And he was able to twist all sorts of things so that the judge would actually have some compassion for him, and why he was not paying his child support payments or behind, in paying his spousal support payments.

And in the judge’s eyes, you can imagine, right? They’re just coming off the criminal court system, where there are many very dark things that happen. So then when you’re just looking at someone, Oh, you’re behind on your child support payments, and here’s the reason for it: they have a level of compassion that they should not have.

And the courts are very clunky. He wasn’t paying. So now I’m financially feeling that impact of not having that income.

And now you’ve got increased expenses, because now your attorney says, I need another $5,000. I need another $10, 000. And they want their payment right away, or they’re not going to work for you. So now your expenses are increasing at a time your revenue or your income is decreasing.

Tammy: And it’s not like you’re going to get an answer in five minutes. You might file something with the courts, and they might not hear it for months. And then just as it’s coming up, and he did this to me a lot, and actually because I had the children a hundred percent of the time, I moved states for my career.

And even though the children and I lived in Colorado. I always had to catch a plane to go back to where he was domiciled, to go to court. It’s so frustrating. I had paid for my plane ticket.

I had my attorney completely prepped for the hearing, so you paid all that attorney preparation time. I’m paying for the hotel room, and I’d get a call at 10:00 o’clock at night from my attorney. Oh, by the way, they’re continuing the hearing. A narcissistic parent will do that on purpose.

A narcissist is going to do that in order to mess with you. If they really had a good reason to continue in the hearing, they would have done it before I ever got on that plane. So that was just another tactic to interfere with my life. This would just go on and on. One of my hearings took over two years for them to consider child support.

So people should understand. It’s not like, yay, I get my day in court. No, even when you have your day in court, the ruling, I’ve been on cases that I’ve testified, and the ruling doesn’t come until a year later.

Anne: It seems to always benefit the abuser and never the victim, just in general. If you want a rule, which there are no rules, right? Because it can go any way, but the likelihood of it benefiting the abuser is much higher than the likelihood of it benefiting the victim.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Anne: That’s the scary part. And I think the other issue is enforcement, because no matter what the ruling says, when you’re co-parenting with a narcissistic parent, enforcing it will be another part of the problem.

Tammy: I’m on the case right now, where one party should pay my fees, as well as my client’s attorney fees. Now, there’s even a ruling that says that has to happen. I still haven’t received my payment. So I know exactly what you’re saying happens. The cases that end up in court and end up in court for years, always one of the parties is a narcissist. Because no one else wants to spend that kind of energy, time, and resources.

In fact, my attorney would always say it’s cheaper for him to pay you than to pay his attorney and get the ruling, because the rulings would go in my favor, but it’s a year and a half later or two years later. So in the meantime, I’m struggling. So it is absolutely an abuse tactic. And I said to my attorney, I don’t think you understand.

Tammy: This is not a matter of it’s less expensive for him to pay me outright. This is a game. I promise you that when you’re co-parenting with a narcissist, this is a game.

Anne: It’s a power play, and they like it. They’re the opposite of normal people, who think that chaos and spending money to hurt people is not enjoyable. There’ve been times where he comes into court so happy. And that always surprises me. It shouldn’t, but it’s really interesting to me. The victim is so overwhelmed. Not necessarily disheveled, because women can show up well put together.

So that’s not what I’m saying, but she’s clearly not enjoying this. And he is enjoying it. What are your thoughts about why these types of abusers enjoy it? Especially after your own personal experience?

Tammy: Having experienced it myself, I promise you the abuser walks in almost like a saunter. It’s interesting to see it. I’ve seen the narcissist put their arm around the back of the chair of their attorney, and they sit back and are absolutely at ease.

And of course, this guy says he has no money, but here’s evidence he actually does. Yeah, it’s a game, and it’s a way to still exert control. Because in a relationship when you’re still together, whether dating or married. There’s a level of control that happens.

And I remember my attorney said to me the day we actually officially divorced, “I’m worried about you.”

Tammy: And I said, “Why would you be worried about me? He’s never hit me. He’s never done anything physical to me.”

He said, “I’m telling you right now, he no longer has control over you, and he will seek it in some manner.” And that’s what he did. So instead of being able to abuse me emotionally in our home every day, the only way to exert control and abuse over me was through the court system. And he used it. It truly is a weaponization of the court system.

Anne: Yeah, it’s legal abuse that the legal system is willingly and actively participating in. Now, does that mean I think they are knowingly doing that? No, I don’t think the judges are like, I know he’s abusive, and that’s fine. But they are making the abuse worse for the victims, and it’s unfortunate they’re not aware of that. They become extensions of the abuse in some way.

Tammy: They do. And these judges have many cases on their docket. People have their “right” to their day in court. So when you file a petition, when you file motions, you have a right to that. Yes, the abusers know that. A lot of times I’ve seen cases where people are behind in paying their child support payments. All of a sudden, the day before court, like I’ve seen cases where people are behind over $100,000 in paying child support. And then the day before court to compel them to pay, they might pay like $30, 000.

And so then you’re like, Oh, okay, well they made an effort. So it absolutely is a system where the narcissist can continue to abuse victims who are co-parenting.

Anne: Can we talk about what I would like to deem as unethical pressure? A victim’s attorney will put on her to settle, which might be in her best interest, rather than spending another $150, 000 going to court in attorney fees. This happened with me, and I am still upset about it. We didn’t even present anything to the court. Like a motion or even a defense or anything. And my attorney said, “That will cost you $150, 000 in attorney fees. So why don’t we just shut this down now and only pay $40, 000 in attorney fees?

In the process, I got zero things that I wanted, like literally zero. So the only thing I paid the attorney fees for was to basically wrap up the case. So I didn’t have something in court happening. I knew I had all the proof on my side, but it was too expensive for me to do it. And the attorneys knew it. Lose, because even if I won, I was still out $150, 000 that I did not have. So can you talk about that rock and a hard place that victims are in, and how their attorneys end up traumatizing women in this process?

Tammy: You’re absolutely correct. This is the dilemma that happens. The fact that an attorney will sit down with their client and say, “Listen, we’re going to go to court and we’re going to lose on things.”

Tammy: We’ll go to court, and we’ll win on things that you thought there’s no way we’ll win. It’s hard to tell what could happen in a case with a with a narcissist. Certainly you have prior case history, but the courts are always evolving. And so it’s never a hundred percent sure. That’s why in my particular situation, we even went to the court of appeals, because the lower court judge who had rolled off the criminal bench didn’t understand family law, and actually made an error in the ruling. And so that was an additional expense.

Now I’m fortunate, this is not the case most of the time. My attorney firm believed so strongly that the judge had made a mistake. They said, “We’re going to fund most of this.” Cause it was tens of thousands of dollars, and they wanted it because it was prestigious, and for their law firm to go before the court of appeals and actually win.

And we did win in the court of appeals. But again, now you’re talking about another year. Had, I had to make that decision myself and foot the entire bill. There’s no way. I would have had to live with the judges error in the ruling. But even though the attorney firm I worked with was willing to do that, it was remanded to the lower court.

And let me tell you, it can really annoy the judge that now you appealed them and you have to continue to be in front of that judge. They can retaliate against you in their rulings. And so even though I won in the court of appeals, in reality, I did not.

Anne: Can you talk about why the law is so unpredictable?

Tammy: Back when I divorced, there weren’t a lot of statutes, and that was back when whoever had the bigger, better hired gun would win in the court system. Now, I will say the courts have improved on some level in that there are far more statutes that they follow. So it is better, but it’s still not where it needs to be. Case law can affect things. Back when I got divorced, if you got divorced with the exact same case facts in a different county or in front of a different judge, you could get an entirely different ruling.

It’s just that it’s a very old, archaic system that has a lot of things that need improvement. Because, like I said, the landscape is they really want 50/50 parenting.

Anne: Yeah, in Utah, we just passed Om’s’s law, which is similar to Caden’s law. Are you aware of that law?

Tammy: I don’t think I am.

Anne: Where are you?

Tammy: I’m in Colorado.

Anne: So you guys passed it too.

Tammy: Okay.

Anne: It made reunification therapy illegal. And the reason why is because abusers and narcissistic co parents are using it. I mean, it’s just an abuser tactic. So, now they’ve just renamed it a different name, and they still do it. There’s no way to stop them, because now it has a different name, and they’re still court ordering it. Even though it’s against the law, and also against the law in Colorado.

Anne: We try to run it here about emotional and psychological abuse. Because at least two cases were here, and you had one recently, someone who was never physically abusive, ever, then murdered people. Yours was with the dentist who murdered his wife. It is called Caden’s Law in Colorado, and it was passed in 2023. It protects children from abuse in custody cases. And this would be at play with the money situation if he gets less custody.

Because then he would need to pay more, and I feel like there’s two things happening with abusers. There’s just the control, they like the control. But the second part is that they want the most custody to pay the least amount of child support. And so the kids get to their house, and thtey neglect them at their home. They don’t think, “Wait, I’m going to have to actually do something with these children.”

Tammy: Absolutely.

Anne: They just want to have the most amount of parent time possible, because all they see is the paycheck to their ex. And a narcissist would rather make their kids miserable at their house, neglecting them, than pay their ex any child support.

Tammy: Absolutely, because the child support formula, at least in Colorado, is based on the income of mom, income of dad, who pays the health insurance, because that ends up getting split. And so if one person pays it, that’s factored into the child support calculation. And then obviously time with mom and with dad.

Tammy: Yes, more time if it’s a 50/50 split. Child support ends up being pretty low actually here in the state of Colorado. Whereas, if mom has predominantly far more time, the child support calculation certainly increases considerably. And when the children are with dad, homework isn’t done. Or they get dropped off at school late, you know, things like that.

Anne: We don’t recommend trying to get a parenting coordinator or custody evaluator when co-parenting with a narcissist, because that’s another avenue for him to abuse her. So if he messages her, and she won’t do what he wants, because the parenting plan says no, right? You’re supposed to pick up on Wednesdays, and he’s like, no, I want to pick up on Thursdays. Then he can go through the parenting coordinator, and the parenting coordinator will make her do it. That’s why we’re like, don’t even use a parenting coordinator. We do not recommend it at all.

So one of the things that I’ve often either asked women that I talked to, or I’ve thought myself, is, “If you were a billionaire, would you want to remain married to this person?” Pretty much everyone I’ve asked says, “No, I wouldn’t. Because I want to continue being a stay at home mom.”

Or “Because I want to continue to homeschool.” I’m not a homeschooler, but other women have wanted to do that. Their life is drastically changing in a way they can’t control. And so finances are such an important piece of that puzzle.

Tammy: Absolutely, it’s incredibly frustrating, because what can happen in a divorce with a narcissist is what’s called financial strangulation. And the other side can do that, especially if you have a working spouse, and then the other is a stay at home spouse. And so they’ll cut off bank accounts or credit cards. So it can cut off people’s access to cash or the ability to leave the situation. Here I have four college degrees, but at the time I divorced, I was a stay at home mom because we supported his career to advance.

And it helped him. It didn’t help me personally. And then I had to raise my children a hundred percent, but also get back into the workforce. And it’s very scary.

Anne: I recently saw two cases where the ex was extremely wealthy. When I say extreme, I mean extreme. The women ended up with hardly anything, because he shut down bank accounts or moved money around, spent a lot of money, or ended up scaring her so badly that she did not get what she was entitled to. And the lawyers in her case were like, do you want to spend four more or five more years? I think there’s a disconnect between what you’re legally entitled to, like this is the law.

And then actually spending the money to get it, and there’s no way around that. That’s what our Living Free strategies are about in our workshop that teaches women. This is strategically how to deal with them.

Anne: And it might mean that you leave a bunch of money that you’re entitled to on the table. So that he doesn’t abuse you anymore.

Tammy: Exactly what you’re saying. If one person has control over the credit cards, has control over bank accounts, take out a credit card right now in your name only. You can use the household income. So you can get a higher credit limit. Financial strangulation is a real thing. Because to have an attorney represent you, you have to pay the attorney, and to pay your bills, you have to have financial resources.

Like you’re saying. Women say, “I don’t even qualify for rent. No one will rent to me because I don’t have a credit score history.”

Some landlords want the full lump sum right away, and people don’t have financial resources to do that. It’s rare that people have financial resources, because like you’re saying, most people are just getting by.

Anne: In a defense case, like if you’re charged with a crime, you at least get the public defender, but there is no version of a public defender in divorce.

Tammy: What’s supposed to happen is that once a petition for dissolution has been filed, everything has to be status quo. So you’re not allowed to change beneficiaries. You’re not allowed to drop people from health insurance policies. You’re not allowed to do all these things. But abusers will do that. And do you have the ability to say they were wrong? Yeah, but it requires financial resources to pay the attorney to get in front of the judge.

Anne: And think that’s the main problem that I see repeatedly with attorneys is they’ll tell the victims, well, this is the law. He can’t do that. I think the court isn’t recognizing that he IS doing it. I remember my attorney saying, “Once this is signed” and I’m just laughing now. “You don’t need to worry, because this is what the parenting plan says.”

And I was like, “The second I sign it and he signs it, the case is over. But I can literally scrunch it up and throw it in the garbage can because he’s not going to follow it.”

Tammy: Correct, a narcissistic parent, doesn’t follow it. Even when I went through my divorce, he tried to have a good appearance in front of the kids. He would say, “I’m going to pick up the kids at five o’clock for dinner.” So I would make plans to go out with girlfriends, or maybe go on a date, and lo and behold, it’s eight o’clock and he still hasn’t picked them up.

He might keep them overnight on a Friday night and he would say, ” They’re sick.”

And I’m like, “It’s Saturday.”

He goes, “I don’t know who their pediatrician is. I don’t know who to call.” So, back to the beginning of our conversation. I was fortunate that I had the kids a hundred percent of the time. Because had they been with their dad, they would have missed a lot of things. He didn’t know who their pediatrician was.

Tammy: And it actually would have been for me personally, not even the children. I know I would have gone through him not picking up the kids when he said he was or not dropping them off. In fact, when I moved states for a job, he had the children that day. And he knew I had to get on the road at a decent hour.

Our exchange time was 5 o’clock, because I had many hours to go before I could get to a hotel. He didn’t bring the kids back that night until 11 o’clock, and I had to get on the road that late. What are you going to do? How litigate that in court?

You know, that was just another way to exhaust me, which is terrible, right? He purposely kept the kids until 11 o’clock that night. I was exhausted. So, I know that I was fortunate that I got my children 100 percent of the time. Because I would have had that day in and day out, that type of abusive situation of not following the parenting plan at all.

Anne: So it’s hard to be like the parenting plan will help, or in my own personal case, my attorney would say, “Did you see the draft, was it okay?”

And I was like, “I’ll just sign anything. I don’t even care what it says, because it does not matter.”

Tammy: Because you know who that person is. There’s got to be more education within the court system.

Tammy: I remember going to a therapist who specialized in narcissists right after I divorced, because I was quite broken emotionally. I remember the therapist saying to me, “You know, that tool belt you have to interact with other people? You need to take that off and set it aside, because it doesn’t apply with a narcissist.”

I remember almost having this sigh of relief hearing those words, to know that there was someone who absolutely understood what I was going through. Because you can’t explain, like other people, even my girlfriends, who I love dearly, they would say, “Why does he do that? Why can’t the court see what he is doing?”

And I would say, “Here’s the thing, you’re trying to use that tool belt of normal conflict management or normal personal interaction, but that tool belt does not apply with a narcissist. You have to take that off and throw it away because we are talking about an entire new set of circumstances. And they don’t play by the rules. It’s all playing to win. It’s a game.”

And it’s sad. I actually believe, this is in hindsight, that my ex husband saw my goodness, and he saw my light, and he wanted what I have. He wanted my view of the world. And so because he couldn’t have it, he was going to make sure I was just beat down to the ground.

Tammy: Unfortunately, it took until my daughter turned 18 before I finally could have a life where I could live without him in it. In the court system, you’re tied to them until they’re 18 years old. And so he could use the courts to abuse me up until that time. Just like you’re saying, they view the courts as an extension of a way to abuse you. At the time, I looked at it as, I’m doing this on behalf of my children. My children have a right to this money. I took him to court to get him to pay, but he always took me to court to reduce my child support.

A narcissistic parent is going to lie. And a lot of them are quite successful individuals. My ex was a chief financial officer, because they can use their charisma to move up the corporate ladder to be business owners.

I had one case where, “Oh, I make $80, 000 a year.” And I told the judge, “No, he makes $480, 000 a year.” The judge absolutely took my report in its entirety. During COVID, where people got those PPP loans, that was a huge abuse in the court system. Because these business owners, maybe their revenue had gone down. But now their employee expenses were zero, because the government through the PPP loan paid for that, but they still got to deduct those expenses.

Tammy: So these narcissists ran to court, and told the judge, stop my child support. Look, my business is in the red. In reality, it wasn’t. Their revenue was down, but their expenses were zero. You have to be careful of these people who run to the court seeking relief from their child support payments. In reality, they were doing just fine financially because of these loans. And I know the shortcomings of the court system.

Anne: The court system is this gauntlet of pain.

Tammy: If you’re going into a court system and thinking it’s going to solve your problems, it’s not. Are there glimmers of hope and are there things that can happen? Yes, you’ve got this legal system, but then you’ve got the emotional situation you’re going through And certainly there’s a financial situation. You have to have a multi-pronged approach to resolve it.

And that’s why, the beauty of you offering a course to women to help heal them and give them tools in other avenues to deal with this narcissist. Even recently, I saw my ex husband, because my oldest daughter, my middle child, just got married. You’ll continue to see them at birthdays, graduations, weddings.

Tammy: The tools that you offer in order to be able to deal with them, they’re invaluable going forward. You can get to the other side, but you need an incredible support system. You cannot do this alone. I would always say to my girlfriends, I swear I’d be six feet under if it weren’t for them. Because they were the ones that saw my beauty. They were the ones who saw my strength. They were the ones that were my greatest cheerleaders, who said, “Get up, dust yourself off. You can do this another day.”

So I really believe having an effective support in place was key for me to be able to get to the other side of this. I could never get to the other side alone.

Anne: Going through the court in some way or another, you’ll have to have a legal document that you sign to be divorced.

Tammy: Correct.

Anne: There’s no way around it. Now, the way I got my kids completely free of my ex, we didn’t go to court, but he signed a legal document. So, I’m not saying that will work for everyone, there’s no guarantees. But, there’s no way around the legal ramifications and some type of legal process. And, you can do a DIY. You can have a BTR coach help you. You can hire an attorney. There are multiple avenues to do this, but you have to do it.

Anne: And so, no matter how terrible it is, or miserable or hopeless, having the right team a trauma informed divorce coach like we have here. We mostly deal with things like strategy and emotions. How to keep yourself centered, thought strategies that you can use so that you can actually function. I think the hopeful part is that this is one of the hardest things you’ve ever done. You can get through it, you will survive co-parenting with a narcissist.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and our team will be there for you. No matter what the outcome is, you will survive and your kids will be okay. I think that’s what I’m trying to land on. For all of us who have been through it, and we’re looking back. We know that will happen, but it’s very hard to feel that when you’re going through it.

Tammy: It is. There’s no other way, especially when you have children, because the courts require you to have the parenting plans and whatnot. But there is light at that other side, but you must walk through this process. And that’s why, just as you stated, it’s important that professionals are in place. Who will help you on several fronts to navigate this environment, legally, as well as personally, emotionally, spiritually, all of that. The more of a support system you can have in place, the better chance of your success.

Anne: Well, thank you so much, Tammy, for spending time to talk with us today. I appreciate you.

Tammy: I have enjoyed my time with you. Thank you so much for having me on your show.

If you’re considering marriage infidelity counseling, you’re not alone. Most women in crisis start here, Googling late at night, hoping a professional can finally make sense of what’s happening in their marriage. Counseling can help in the right situation, but there are some realities women wish they had known before scheduling that first session.

Here are five things every woman should understand before going:

Most marriage infidelity counseling isn’t designed to identify emotional or psychological abuse. Counselors are trained to help with communication, reconnection, and repairing trust, not spotting betrayal trauma in relationships, coercion, or chronic deception.
So if you walk in unsure of what’s happening, the therapist often follows your frame, even if something much more serious is going on under the surface.

Women often tell me they felt worse after marriage infidelity counseling, not because the therapist was unkind, but because the process unintentionally gave their husband new ways to twist the narrative.
Men who are actively lying, hiding, or manipulating can look reflective, apologetic, and “committed to change,” while the woman who has been mistreated looks exhausted, overwhelmed, or reactive.
The result? He’s praised. She’s pathologized.

Many counselors assume both people tell the truth. They rely on transparency, good faith, and mutual honesty, qualities your husband may not bring to the table.
If the root issue is chronic lying, coercion, or secret-keeping, no amount of worksheets, empathy-building exercises, or compromise strategies will solve the real problem.

Thousands of women have come to BTR after months or years of marriage infidelity counseling, saying the same thing:
“It didn’t get better. I was just blamed more.”
When a therapist can’t name the deception, the blame shifts onto the woman, her “communication style,” her “triggers,” her “expectations.”
They might recommend other treatment programs, like addiction recovery or codependents anonymous. You end up working harder, while he becomes more skilled at hiding the truth.

If you’re already exhausted, confused, or walking on eggshells, you don’t need more pressure. You need tools, language, and a framework to understand what you’re actually facing—before deciding whether marriage infidelity counseling is the right path.
That clarity protects you. It also prevents you from spending months (or years) trying to repair something you didn’t break.

A simple place to start is The After Infidelity Free Email Course, a private way to explore the patterns so you can walk into any counseling environment fully informed.
Or, if you want deeper guidance at your own pace, the Living Free Workshop gives you the tools I wish someone had handed me the first time I stepped into a marriage infidelity counseling office.

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Sarita. She went to marriage infidelity counseling, and was unaware of the risks. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today. Here’s what Sarita said.

Sarita: “I wish that I had found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast before I tried therapy and spent thousands of dollars. Your podcast, is what I needed.”

Sarita: We were young. We started dating when I was 19. As a young girl, it looked like he just had some anger problems. When he would get really angry, he would walk around the school and actually punch the walls.

Sarita: My very first step actually was trying to do counseling with our pastor. This was probably about a year and a half into our marriage. I really noticed him drift from God. That’s what it seemed like at the time.

Because prior to that, he was this alleged devoted Christian. He would wake up early in the morning and do his devotions and pray. And I started to actually get worried about him, thinking, “Oh no, like, is he depressed?

Is he struggling in his faith?” I wanted to come alongside him as the wife. “What can I do for you? How can I love you, support you, pray for you, and make your life easier?” And I didn’t realize what was happening back then. We started doing marriage infidelity counseling with our pastor, and that was the worst idea on the planet. I did not know that, obviously.

Anne: Because that’s the most common thing people suggest when someone’s having “relationship problems.” People will suggest couple therapy. So can you talk about how that went?

Sarita: I never really felt heard. I felt like our pastor made a lot of excuses for him. What we did in counseling was watch this video series by Paul Tripp. I remember feeling frustrated after each session, just not feeling like we were getting anywhere. I felt like there was a lot of downplaying, a lot of blaming me, and a lot of, “Oh, he’s just really struggling in his faith. He’s really broken, and he needs your support. He needs your love. He needs your help.”

Sarita: The responsibility was all on me, not on him. There were many excuses for him. We both actually decided marriage infidelity counseling was not working. And we decided to stop going. We actually found a church an hour away, so we decided to check it out, and we loved it. That church was going to save our marriage. And so we actually moved an hour away to be part of this church.

Anne: How did that go?

Sarita: Not good. It ended up being years and years of spiritual abuse symptoms from this church, a lot of gaslighting, pounding passages into my head, about how you’re going to help save your husband. Just pray for him and love him through your actions, and stop constantly trying to say things to him.

Peter 3, verse 1, “Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by submitting to their own husbands, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.”

Anne: Wow, that’s quite the interpretation of that. Why in the world would God tell anybody not to fear something frightening? God doesn’t want us to submit to evil. The interpretation of that doesn’t even make sense.

Sarita: Exactly, so that is the passage that was drilled into my head for years and years. Win him without a word. Just basically be as perfect as you humanly can. As a wife make sure you are upkeeping the house, taking care of the children, removing every possible stressor at home for him, so that he doesn’t explode on you.

I remember friends telling me, Sarita, it’s actually absurd to me to think about how much time you spend cleaning and cooking, because your house is always spotless. And we had four kids in four years. I was always pregnant or always nursing. He pretty much always came home to a warm home-cooked meal. I took care of everything for him. I took care of finances and scheduled marriage infidelity counseling. Throughout this time, he actually almost killed me. He went to jail for that.

I came to the elders and my mentor, and I told them, look, this is where I’m at. So I am feeling a lot of bitterness. My husband has no empathy. I do not feel an ounce of empathy anymore for him. And I need help, because I want to forgive him. I want to care about what’s going on with him, but I just don’t anymore. I don’t want to stay in this place. Can you please help me?

And then one week after, our elders came to our house with papers in their hands, and gave us papers of church discipline. The church disciplined him for emotional abuse, harshness with his wife, not stepping up as a husband. The church disciplined me for unforgiveness and bitterness toward him.

Anne: Wow.

Sarita: And so that was a really big slap in the face.

Anne: Yeah.

Sarita: Because it was like, I came to you desperate for help, seeking marriage infidelity counseling, and telling you I don’t want to stay in this place. Instead, you slapped me with church discipline.

Anne: Did you know of any pornography use and infidelity at the time?

Sarita: Oh yeah, he was very cold, extremely cold. I remember feeling like he hated me. I remember begging him in tears almost every night to just come to bed with me. Telling him like, “I love you, I want to spend time with you,” And I remember him essentially telling me to “F” off. And I would cry myself to sleep. This went on for years. And he watched pornography or played video games. I actually remember having to hide finances from him. If I didn’t hide that money, it would be completely gone.

He woke me up many times in the middle of the night. There was a lot of sexual coercion. And I remember telling him, no, I’m not ready for another baby right now. The way I actually conceived our fourth child was marital rape. I obviously would never take back that baby ever. Every pregnancy of mine, I was on bedrest, in mass amounts of pain. He did not care. My body was his, and he essentially owned it. He was going to make sure he got what he needed.

I remember many times asking him “Hey, honey. Are you doing okay? Like how is the pornography use going? Is there anything I can do as your wife to support you?” I am willing to basically be your object. If you would stop betraying me.

Sarita: I actually was always available. “We can do this, I’m here. I’m not going to tell you no.” I used to try to initiate a lot, and he would turn me down nearly every single time, and it was crushing.

Anne: Did the church encourage this idea that you needed to be available for sex all the time?

Sarita: It was very much within the teachings of our church. As the wife, you should be available to your husband, unless you are sick, or unless you have a valid reason.

Anne: I don’t want to is not a valid enough reason, apparently.

Sarita: Yes, exactly. And the only times that I ever actually turned him down were when I was pregnant and in tons of pain. Because I knew if he doesn’t do it here, he will go somewhere else.

Anne: You probably didn’t recognize at the time, that going to marriage infidelity counseling was a form of resistance. You were trying to get him to be kind to you. You were trying to stop his behavior from hurting you. And this is what they told you would make the situation better. But my guess is you didn’t recognize it as a form of resistance at the time.

Sarita: Yeah, no I didn’t. It was just me doing my Biblical duty as a wife. When we conceived our fourth child, I remember coming forward to the elders, and they did sit down with us and say, “No means no.” Like you cannot rape your wife. It was like a slap on the wrist. There was no comfort or reprieve. It was just, he got you pregnant, now you gotta deal with it.

Sarita: That is when his behaviors actually escalated. He had been hiding behind this mask for so many years. Especially with this church community and with our friends and family. That he was this Christian man with these values and morals.

And he loved his wife and took care of his family. And I think when people started to see through it, he finally felt peace to be who he was. He started a lot of drinking, hanging out with very questionable people. And he stopped going to church. going on dating sites, hookup sites, and granted, it could have started before.

Anne: So the second the church situation wasn’t helping him exploit you anymore, he was done with it.

Sarita: Pretty much, yep, if they were going to expose him, he just didn’t come anymore.

Anne: I want to stress that, because so many women are like, if someone would discipline him, then we might get help. And then maybe our marriage could be good. But often when that happens, when he’s exposed through marriage infidelity counseling, things don’t get better, they actually get worse. My guess is, you never would have guessed back then that discipline would have made it worse.

Sarita: I thought the church, the congregation, would step up. I was sitting in church alone with my four children, everyone looking at me, everyone avoided me like the plague.

Anne: It’s so awful. I’m so sorry. So for our listeners who are thinking like, “Oh, if I could get a diagnosis or if I could get someone to explain to him how bad this is,” he already knows what he’s doing. He knows what’s going on. Nobody tells a woman that.

Anne: They all say you just need couple therapy or marriage infidelity counseling, and you need to get him help and be understanding with him.

Sarita: And they don’t realize how damaging couple therapy actually is. Especially for the victim, but even for him, because it enables him. And when you said you don’t need a diagnosis, I had begged him to go see a psychiatrist, and he finally did. And they actually interviewed me too.

They wanted to know what my take on things was. And the psychiatrist at the time was heavily leaning toward antisocial personality disorder. So sociopathy, he went to probably two or three visits with that doctor. And I think by the time he realized what they were coming to, that was when he said, “I’m not going back.”

I remember the psychiatrist telling me, I think this is what we are dealing with. And what’s wild is that I met my mentor from back then. I told her that and she said, oh yeah, that’s not a surprise to me at all. Me and the pastors used to always say that he was absolutely a sociopath.

Anne: What!

Sarita: And I just remember thinking like you guys knew years ago when we were in marriage infidelity counseling and you didn’t tell me.

Anne: And also, you didn’t say, hey, how can we support you, to get to safety? Did anyone ever ask you that?

Sarita: Nope.

Anne: Yeah, that’s That is super, super alarming.

Sarita: She ended up blaming me. I asked her. I said, why didn’t you guys tell me that? And she said, I don’t think you would have listened.

Anne: She never gave you the opportunity to listen.

Sarita: Right, you never gave me the chance, and it doesn’t matter whether I would have listened in marriage infidelity counseling, or not. It was your responsibility to say something. You don’t get to decide what you think I’m gonna hear.

Anne: As an advocate, I observe women continually trying to get to safety through marriage infidelity counselint, and sometimes they don’t feel like what I’m telling them is the safest option. At the time, they might say something like, “He’s not really abusive,” And I believe it’s because that feels too unsafe, because the things they’re describing are definitely abuse.

That’s why many people disagree with our stance here at BTR that betrayal is abuse. But I still say it anyway, despite the fact that they don’t think it’s abuse or think I’m being too harsh because this guy is a good guy or something. I don’t think people understand what it’s like to be an abuse victim trying to get to safety and not getting the right information from anybody.

Sarita: Exactly, that’s exactly what I do now. Like, when I’m talking with other women about their situation, whether they’re currently in it, or they just came out of it, I will say that to them, you do realize that is abuse. And some of them will say, no, they’ll explain why he acted that way.

And I’m always like, No. I can guarantee you that if we really look at this deeper, this has been going on for a long time. And so I think it’s a lot more helpful to just come out and say no, that is abuse. What you said, I have a lot of people too that disagree with me. They’ll think, or they’ll say, it feels like you just call everything abuse.

Anne: Yeah, I have people say that to me too.

Sarita: Yeah, and not quite. Once you understand it and once you see it, you cannot unsee it. You see it everywhere you go, in your family, in your friendships even, in your work, in acquaintances.

Anne: Yeah, it’s true. You cannot unsee it.

Sarita: Everything became much more exposed, I found out about the hookup sites. And I ended up having surgery when our newborn was six weeks old. And he actually left me with our four children. During the entire time, he was out getting wasted, doing who knows what. By the end of that month was when I came to find out about everything, and that is when I decided to leave. Before I finally left for good, he actually did go through a very short term addiction treatment, but he left early. He didn’t even graduate.

Anne: What type of addiction?

Sarita: Alcoholism, it took a matter of about a month before the mask started to fall off. I remember standing on my front porch, praying and getting this impression from God, where he essentially said to me, “I can save him, whether you are married to him or not. I’ve got this from here. You go and be free.” And I felt this physical release, oh my goodness, I can breathe. Because for years I had been told to save my husband.

I filed for divorce, and I felt a lot of grief. And I was heartbroken and destroyed. And then I decided I regretted it. So I was like, I’m going to save my marriage.

Sarita: It was this whole thing where he was actually supposed to break it off with his then girlfriend. And I was supposed to break it off with my then boyfriend, and I kept up my end of the deal. I initially left him in April, and by December he officially served me with papers. And then we divorced the following year.

Anne: So Sarita will now share what happened with her second marriage. So why don’t you just start at the beginning?

Sarita: I actually met him when I was 16 years old. He was in this friend group that my ex used to hang out with a lot. It was interesting, because back then I wasn’t attracted to him. On top of that, he was seven years older than me. As an adult now looking back, that’s weird. That he was comfortable hanging out with 16 and 17 year olds. Granted, nothing inappropriate ever happened between us back then.

When we were friends, I would talk to him about this relationship here and there. It was not often. There were a few times that he had given me advice. So his cousin died in a car accident. It was a really sad situation. But I went to the funeral and saw him like, good to see you, whatever, you know. Through the years, we very loosely kept in contact.

At one point in time, he came to a church event with me and my first husband. During that meeting, he showed me this list he carried around with him, of what he wants in a woman. And it was this bullet pointed list of brunette, she’s gotta have all these character traits, body traits, like eye color.

Anne: Was it mostly physical?

Sarita: Yes, mostly physical. He did have some, she has to love the Lord, ’cause he did claim to be a believer. So there was stuff like that sprinkled in there, but it was really, this is my perfect woman, essentially.

Anne: Physically.

Sarita: Yeah, and I remember thinking back then, that’s weird. Like, so you’re not even willing to consider another woman outside of that.

Anne: But also not like, has a good sense of humor. Did it have anything about her personality?

Sarita: I don’t remember. His big points on there were like the physical traits. And then, like I said, she has to love the Lord. But it was almost like she has to love the Lord was like this added bonus, but he is looking for this woman that fits this perfect mold. I actually remember seeing his first wife on Facebook, and I used to comment on those posts like, “Oh my gosh, congratulations. I’m so happy for you. She’s beautiful.”

It was like friend to friend. I’m like, wow, I watched your journey with your first wife. So anyway, when my husband at the time, went through a treatment program. What do you know? His recovery coach was yep, my second ex. So I’m desperately trying to do everything I possibly can even with marriage infidelity counseling to save this marriage. I am so committed to this marriage and this man. I remember telling my future second husband, “Hey, please take care of him, please love on him, check in on him.” I actually worked at that treatment facility. He was in the men’s building, and then I was in the women’s building.

And he was like, “Yeah, absolutely I will.”

Sarita: He was going through a separation with his wife. During both of our first marriages, we’re dealing with separation simultaneously. And that was something that bonded us. My first marriage ended. Years later, I saw him in the parking lot, and I ran up to him. I gave him a hug. I was like, “I haven’t seen you in years. It’s so good to see you.” And at this time, we’re both single, and so I’m like, “We really should catch up sometime. It’s been so long.”

We went bowling, we went out to eat, and we just had a fun time. We played basketball. He was actually intentional about saying, “I am not interested, you’re a friend.” ‘Cause when we would go out to eat and stuff together as friends, people would be like, “Oh my gosh, you guys are such a cute couple.”

And I’m not kidding you, he would literally gag and be like, “Oh, no. I would never date her. She’s just a friend.”

Anne: Were you interested in him? Or were you like, this is great. I like being his friend. Was there a part of you that was like, well, if he wanted more, then I would want more too?

Sarita: I was actually seeing someone else during that summer. I liked just being friends.

Anne: Now you had seen his list of what I want in a woman. Did you fit some of that “criteria” at all? Or were you thinking in your mind well, of course that’s rude. But I can see why he’s not interested. ‘Cause I’ve seen his list and I’m not what he’s looking for. Did that enter your mind at all?

Sarita: No, I really didn’t fit his list, other than he wanted a girl that was short and I had long black hair. I’m Asian Indian and have a slightly darker complexion. I’m not super dark, but tan. There were a couple of girls he was very interested in during the summer. One of them was a friend of mine. She had been like family to me for many years. He was just obsessed with her.

He would be like, can you please talk to her and see if she’ll go out with me, or just let me take her on a date? And I would always be like, no, I’m not doing that for you. Because if she already told you no, it’s a no. ‘Cause she was a bartender, and he would drink or whatever and try to talk to her. And I remember thinking back then, dude, take a hint.

He did this with her and another girl. I remember telling him you have to stop and give it a rest. And he was like, “I just wish they would give me a chance. I just wanna take them on a date, just one date.” And I’m like, “But the answer was no. So just move on.”

Anne: Looking back, do you think that he was maybe using you to get to her.

Sarita: Very possible.

Anne: Because these guys are so transactional, they’re not doing it just for “fun.” They have a goal in mind and they’re trying to accomplish that goal.

Sarita: Exactly. I was dating other people and enjoying single life. He had his son during the last month of summer for a couple weeks. We got our kids together once, and we took them to the fair.

His son got sick at one point, and he reached out to me and asked, “What do I do?” I’m thinking he’s a single dad. He is trying so hard. He just needs a woman to show him that this is what you do when your kid’s sick. So at the end of summer, he called me out of nowhere and he goes, “When I was on the way home from dropping off my son, my car broke down.”

So his car’s stuck in a shop 12 hours away. He takes a plane back home, and he calls me and goes. “Can I stay with you while my car is getting worked on?” Because he actually lived with his parents. This is a 33-year-old man. And he lived a half hour from town, a half hour from where he worked. And so he goes, “Would you be okay with me staying in the living room? I’ll sleep on the floor. I don’t know how I’ll get to work every day, because my car’s stuck in the shop. I don’t have money to fix it right now, and I can’t get a ride to and from work every day.”

There was that little voice that was like, “I don’t know how I feel about this. This is kind of a big ask.” I’m a single mom, and I’m thinking “I’m just not really sure if I’m comfortable with this.”

Sarita: I ended up ignoring that small voice, and I was like, “I guess if it’s only for a few weeks, I don’t have a bedroom, I don’t have anything. You can sleep on the living room floor.”

And he was like, “That’s totally fine.”

And because we both worked at the same place, he expected me to take him to work every day. It was a perfect setup. He was just using me. I did not work every day. I was actually technically on call. So there were many mornings when I was waking my kids up at 6, 6:30 in the morning, getting them ready so that we could take him to work.

It was a huge sacrifice for me to do this. He knew that and never expressed gratitude for it. He was like, thanks. That was it. He never offered to help pay bills. He never offered, can I give you 300 bucks to help cover the extra utilities? Like nothing.

Anne: Or even gas ’cause you’re driving him.

Sarita: Nope, he was very much like, I’m just using you and I’m not giving you anything in return. And so by the end of that month, I’m like, “Okay, what’s going on here?”

And he was like, “I’ve just been trying so hard to save up money to get my car fixed so that I can get it back.”

Anne: Maybe he lied about the car and it wasn’t even in the shop. Maybe he had to give it to his ex or something.

Sarita: Maybe. And so with that, of course I’m feeling guilt, he’s just trying to get outta this bind, and then I’m gonna be like, yeah, so can you help pay rent?

Anne: But he doesn’t have any other expenses.

Sarita: No, none. I’m sitting here thinking, how do you not have anything? Because you’ve been living with your parents for several years. Now you work two or three jobs. Where is all your money going? This isn’t adding up at all. It never did add up. He was supposed to move across the country to live by his son. I remember asking him, “I just don’t understand. I mean, you divorced almost three years. How do you not have the money to move?”

Anne: What were his excuses?

Sarita: He is essentially saying, “I’m the hero here of my son’s story, because I just don’t want him to grow up with all this pain and trauma. I wanted my son here with me, and I could have kept him here. I have spent a lot of time praying about this, and I knew that if my son grew up here, he would grow up with parents who fought all the time, even separated. And it wasn’t gonna be healthy for him.”

Anne: If it’s used for manipulation, that’s the definition of taking God’s name in vain. He’s saying he prayed about it and God told him to do this, when that wasn’t the case.

Sarita: Yes, yes that’s exactly it. After we married, I told him, “You didn’t feel peace from God. You felt relief, because then you didn’t have to be a father.” I said, “I would be homeless before I go without my kids.”

I finally knew that I needed to leave and that something needed to change when I was actually able to talk with his ex-wife on the phone a few times. I don’t think she could name it abuse. She would just name it as a bad fight. He grabbed her and threw her down to the floor. And another time, he held her up against the wall with his hand on her throat. And told her he was gonna pummel her face into the wall, things like that.

This is a lot more serious than what I thought. I didn’t even realize how bad this was. I remember bringing this up to him, and he of course was like, that never happened. And I don’t know why she even said that. He would admit to some of it, he wouldn’t admit to all of it. That’s when I was like, wow, this is serious.

At that time, we actually were headed for divorce. He filed, and were almost done with our divorce. Then we ended up getting back together. About two months later, I ended up pregnant. He was enraged. He told me it was my fault and apparently purposely got myself pregnant, accusation after accusation. Then he was like, “Is it even mine?”

He stormed around the house and pouted, and the silent treatment for two days. I remember him saying to me, “So are you and the kids gonna find somewhere to live then?”

Sarita: I knew I had to go when he physically grabbed me and shoved me. I obviously will not say that. He’s like, “I just moved you.” And I’m like, “No, no, no.” The force and aggression behind that was a lot. I looked into his eyes when he did it. And I knew in that moment, he wants to kill me right now. I saw this look in his eye of I just wanna hurt you.

We moved the next morning with help from some of our church members and friends. They actually watched him and the way he was talking to me. And one of them later on ended up saying “I could see the abuse clear as day, just from how he was talking to you when we were moving. We could tell you were afraid of him. It was obvious.

I felt so filled with fear. There were multiple occasions that he would show up at the house. And he’d be like, “I’m sorry, I need to grab something from the garage quick,” or “I just need to do this.” And there was one time when I came home from work and there were flowers on my table. I had this eerie feeling of oh my gosh, he was in my home. And like he’s trying to do this supposedly sweet thing for me. But I am terrified.

After we separated, I was just looking for all the abuse resources out there. When I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, I remember feeling very seen.

There was an episode where another woman who married a couple of times. I thought, wow, this is not just me. I held a lot of shame around the fact that I didn’t learn the first time.

Sarita: I felt discredited for a long time. is the common denominator, she must be the problem. And that’s of course what many people think. They have no idea.

When I found your podcast, I just remember listening to that episode and being like, holy crap. Finally, someone else gets it. I loved that episode, and it was comforting to know you are not the only one. So if you’re listening to this and have been in an abusive marriage, or an abusive relationship, I would say look at your own story.

You’ll see a lot more clearly. You won’t have as much cognitive dissonance where his actions show you the complete opposite.

He was on this whole, “I’m changing, I promise.” And he purchased this $5,000 course for men who try to change. He was making sure that it looked really good on paper.

So he knows that one of my dreams one day is to have a huge ranch and have all these horses. So he’s like, “Honey, like I’m gonna work so hard so that you can have this dream.” He was just giving me this elaborate, “You deserve this. I wanna provide this for you, give this to you.”

Sarita: Listening to your podcast, I was heavily on abuse. I totally knew. You’re not actually changing. But I remember in the moment I was like, he is love bombing me. He was future faking me. This is all fake. I was able to see clearly. I totally knew. You are doing this so that you can tell everyone else, “I tried, look at all along the things I did. I spent thousands of dollars and I put in so much work going to therapy.”

I started to put up a lot of clear boundaries with him.

Sarita: He ended up signing away his rights during divorce. Because he kept pushing the whole, “Well, it’s not mine.” He already had it in his mind that I was this whore.

Anne: Well, or he is just lying and saying that to blame you as a tactic, that’s probably more what it was.

Sarita: I battled with. I don’t want all these people thinking I was messing around. But simultaneously, I also knew he’s probably already telling people that anyway. So like at this point, I might as well agree with him that this isn’t his baby and just move on. And my lawyer even said that because he could easily ask the judge for a paternity test, and the judge would grant it to him. So he’s not even putting in the effort or fight to make sure this is his child. Which my lawyer was like, “This tells me that he knows that it is. He just doesn’t want it to be.”

And I knew that too. You could put a little skin in the game of trying to get the paternity test. To ensure this is your kid, because he did the same thing with his last child. He put in no effort whatsoever.

Anne: But also, that benefited you. You don’t want them to put in the effort of marriage infidelity counseling.

Sarita: And I knew he wouldn’t. He didn’t take responsibility for his first son, so why would he take responsibility now? And my lawyer was like, look, I’ve worked with countless abuse victims. And he was like, if he doesn’t think he’s the father, let’s just let him think that.

Anne: Right, yeah, exactly.

Sarita: He reached out again to my lawyer and was like, “Are you sure she’s not willing to do a paternity test?” And my lawyer said, “No, she’s not willing.”

So he said, ” Well, that’s really unfortunate, but I guess, I’m just gonna have to assume that I’m not the father.”

And so my lawyer said to him, “Okay, we will agree with you that you are not the father of this child.” So then he signed the non-parentage statement.

Anne: Oh, wow.

Sarita: Yeah, he’s a ghost. The biggest thing with abuse and the hardest thing about it after my first marriage is that I wish I had found your podcast. I don’t think I would’ve found myself in another abusive marriage, because I think I would’ve seen it much more clearly.

Anne: Well, thank you Sarita, I appreciate you coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your bravery and sharing your strength with other women.

Sarita: Yeah, Thank you so much. I appreciated it.

Learning how to set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship may seem confusing and overwhelming.

Have you ever tried to set boundaries expecting more safety and security, only to feel more exposed to harm than ever? That’s because traditional boundary-setting models simply don’t work in abuse scenarios.

Before I share what does work, here are a few resources:

Okay, so here’s what you need to know to set boundaries if your husband is emotionally abusive.

Establishing effective safety boundaries is new territory for many women who find Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

If you’re wondering how to set boundaries, begin this process, ask yourself these questions:

Elsa, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, shares how she learned how to set boundaries with her emotionally abusive husband.

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Elsa and talk about how to set boundaries. Welcome Elsa.

Elsa: Thank you.

Anne: She’s been a podcast listener for a long time. It’s always an honor to have podcast listeners on. So thank you so much for supporting the podcast by listening to it. Let’s start with your story. Tell me about the beginning. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?

Elsa: When I first met him, two days in, he told me something that wasn’t the truth. But I thought, “Wow, how vulnerable. He told me he cheated on a past partner.” One partner, one time.It’s grooming. I had no idea what grooming was, it was a way to get me to trust him. I thought, “He was up front and told me this information. It’s all there is. All the skeletons are out of the closet.” And they weren’t.

Anne: If your husband is grooming, he makes you think, “No one who is a liar would tell me this . He must be telling the truth.” He tells a part of the truth that is the tip of the iceberg. If he told the truth, he’d say, “I look at pornography and masturbate every day. I’ve cheated on every partner. And I have every intention of cheating because I don’t want to be with one person.” But he doesn’t. He says just a tiny bit and then claims, “Now everything’s out on the table.”

Elsa: It creates a false sense of safety, yeah.

Anne: Exactly, then you are left wondering what to do when your husband betrays your trust.  Exactly, and it’s actually super scary because if it was before you were engaged, it’s really alarming that they think in these sick, twisted ways, like, “Oh, if I lie to her and she trusts me, that’s the kind of woman I wanna marry rather than a healthy person thinking, ” I would like a healthy relationship where we trust each other.”

And you had no concrete reasons to learn how to set boundaries.

Elsa: It was mind blowing that it was that planned and calculated. Before we married, I noticed some things regarding his behavior. There was an instance when he omitted some information. And I didn’t consider it abuse. I addressed it with him. He agreed and said I was right. I thought, that’s it. That’s solved. I felt like he heard me, and we moved on.

After we married, I noticed he was more contemptuous when I brought things to him. And that’s when I started to have some questions and feel quite out of sorts because it felt like such a change from when we were dating.

Anne: What was the nature of the information that he withheld?

Elsa: We hadn’t dated that long, and I had a trip planned with a couple of my girlfriends to go to Europe. I’d be away for a couple of months. He said, would you want to be exclusive? It was like a big yes for me. But I felt like communication was difficult during the trip. I felt like he was hard to pin down.

He said he was going to go camping one weekend. I had this gut feeling that he may go camping with somebody he worked with. Who was quite a bit younger than him.

And I asked him if he did, and at first he said he went with just my dog because he was taking care of my dog. And then he said, “Oh, I went with some coworkers.” I found out the truth about six months later. That he had gone on a one-on-one camping trip with a 21 year old when he was in his mid thirties.

So that’s obviously a red flag. But at the time, I was already pretty invested. And he denied anything happened. At first he understood, but after a few days of listening to my concerns about him withholding that information, he pressured me to “get over it.” And I worked through it.

Anne: Yeah, under those circumstances, I would have been hard to figure out you needed to learn how to set boundaries. Did you ever find out later that there was something that happened between them?

Elsa: Exactly. Looking back now and the knowledge I have, I think he was grooming that co-worker. So I think it probably confused her quite a bit, if I was to put myself in her shoes. He told me she shot him down and said no.

Anne: Totally, so had he been able to, he would have.

Elsa: Yes, and he said that. Six months later.

Anne: And then when they decide to tell you, it’s calculated to hurt you. When they feel like you’re maybe having a great day or something’s going well for you. They calculate it to hurt you. So can you tell me when he told you this?

Elsa: He did do that to keep me kind of destabilized.

This particular instance was before we got engaged. I think he was afraid I would leave him. So he told me he lied. And told me, “Now we have everything out in the open. Now you know everything.” It was a lie. I didn’t know how to set boundaries.

Anne: What types of reasons did you give in the beginning for this behavior that seemed kind of off?

Elsa: Before I met him, he’d been in the city with a lot of college students, young women, and he was in that kind of party atmosphere. So we were newly married and we moved to a different college town and his behavior towards me changed. I thought, “It’s probably me.” Plus, my husband says I was the problem too. And I wondered if I should go to therapy. And he said, “Yeah, I think you should.” So he really let me believe I needed therapy and I needed to do my own work.

So I started counseling, and he did come to some early counseling sessions with me. And we found out there was an addiction.

Anne: Did you find the therapy helpful? Did the therapist talk about how how to set boundaries with your husband?

Elsa: No. I was pregnant, feeling anxious in the pregnancy, and I wasn’t able to put my finger on what was going on. I worried about the impact on my unborn child. So the goal was to reduce my anxiety.

Anne: Did you get diagnosed with anxiety at that time?

Elsa: No, we used it for insurance purposes, but I’ve never had a diagnosis of anything.

Anne: That’s good. So many women get diagnosed with something during this time because instead of their therapist saying, “This is your internal warning system telling you something’s wrong. You are reacting in a totally normal way. Let’s figure out why your warning system is going off.”

Instead of saying that, the therapist is like, “You’re just another crazy woman who’s having too much anxiety and you’re hysterical for no reason.”

Elsa: That’s the only message I was getting.

Anne: So the therapist doesn’t help you figure out what’s going on. She doesn’t help you figure out that you’re abused or how to set boundaries. How did you discover his use? Was your husband on his phone all the time?

Elsa: Turns out my gut is sensitive. So I kept bringing my concerns to him over and over. “Something doesn’t feel right. Something has changed.”

Then one day I thought to ask him, “Do you look at inappropriate media?. And he said, “Yes, I do. So that I don’t bleep other women.”

He shocked me. It’s a moment etched in my memory. I was shocked he never offered that information. That conversation never came up.

Anne: Also, his opinion, his viewpoint, was that if he did not look at it, he did not have the integrity, ability, or adult skill of not having sex with someone who wasn’t his wife. That was his reasoning. “I’m looking at this awful stuff for you. because if I didn’t, I would be out having sex with other women. And you don’t want me to do that, do you?”

Elsa: It was progress in his mind.

Anne: That must have been devastating. I’m so sorry. When does the word addict come into play?

Elsa: He told me he was a sex addict and I kind of laughed. I didn’t think it was a real thing. Then he said he was going to go to sex addicts anonymous.

Much like when he confessed about the story about the 21 year old girl, I think he could sense that I would have him leave the house. And so he found SAA, and said, “I’m going to go.” And he went. At that point, I thought that was our only issue. I didn’t realize I needed to learn how to set boundaries.

But later, I found out it was much bigger than looking at exploitative material. I needed to protect myself by learning how to set boundaries.

Anne:  Oh yeah, for sure. This is a systemic issue and it breaks my heart when he lies. If he says he is an addict and he is gonna get help for addiction, the help for wives of addicts centers around sort of leaving him alone and staying on your side of the street and working on your “codependency” or your problems.

If he’s abusive, you need someone to help you get off the street all together because none of it is you.

Elsa: Yes, that’s what I was seeking from professionals. I didn’t get that.

Once I knew he had an addiction, I started reading. And that was what was recommended. I didn’t feel safe around his counselor, who was not certified sex addiction therapist. But I was trying all these different things.

Anne: Even if the person was a certified sexual addiction therapist, the likelihood of them identifying the abuse is next to zero, because they don’t see it as an abuse issue.

They’re not certified abuse specialists. They’re certified sexual addiction therapists. So they’ll identify anything he does as an extension of the addiction. So they’ll say, “He’s in addict mode. He’s not in recovery.” Rather than, “He’s abusive.” Which is a totally different thing for a woman to hear.

Elsa: For sure. Yeah. They didn’t tell me that. So he didn’t want to leave the comfort of the home. We had a loft in our garage. He’d go sleep out there. And I took a trip to California to visit a friend, to have some space. I had my daughter with me. And when I came back, he picked us up at the airport. He barely acknowledged me. There was a lot of feeling of contempt.

And I was like, I want him out of the home.

So I told him, and he raged and tore things apart in the house. And I did call the police. They came. He left after that for two months. He still had access to my daughter, he’d still come and get her, but we had no interaction.

Anne: So you’re starting to learn how to use boundaries to separate yourself from his harm at this point.

Elsa: Totally. So fast forward a couple months. He’s still coming to get my daughter, but I try to have little to no contact with him in that exchange. Then we’re at church on Easter and I walk by where my daughter is in the playroom, and he’s standing at the doorway of the playroom.

It was so pleasant to talk with him. And he was so kind, he says he’s sorry. So from there, we started communication again.

And we start to move forward and repair our relationship. And he eventually moved in after about a month. We were together for another six months, and it got worse. It got much worse. H e cut off all communication I had with his counselor. She would allow me to call her, still no knowledge of how to set boundaries. He didn’t allow me to talk to her.

He wouldn’t talk to anybody in the church with me. And he wouldn’t let me be around if he was talking to his sister. She was a bit older than him, and was a support to me. So I was basically completely isolated and the abuse escalated.

So he was going on a trip to see his family. And I just knew. So I said, “When you leave this time, you’re not coming back in the home.” When he first left, all I could think about was, how do I keep my daughter close to him? How do I make this work for him?

My whole way of thinking was what would he want? And then I started to think about what I wanted and what brings me peace. And that led me to make some choices for myself and my daughter.

I didn’t tell him that I changed my plan to move back to Canada, where I’m a citizen.

I was authorized to work in the United States. He thought I would continue to pursue my green card, and he could help me so that I could remain in the United States. He believed he still had a certain amount of control over me, but I took action, which is how to set boundaries.

When he found out, he was obviously upset, but it protects me. I’m not a citizen in the US and I don’t have any support.

Anne: And protected you from prolonged legal abuse in terms of the divorce. But maybe not in terms of custody, because I have a feeling that you’re going to bring up custody. Because this guy sounds like a coercive controller. It’s strange, because they do things that seem stupid, because it’s hurting them. But it’s also hurting you.

Anne: It also seems smart. Women in this situation are usually like, how can you be so smart and so stupid simultaneously?

Elsa: It’s a question that’s crossed my mind, yeah.

Elsa: I lived, in the northern states near the Canadian border. I just couldn’t find anything in the city for support. I mentioned he started SAA. They did have a group. Then I found a COSA group of about four or five women in that area. I just didn’t find that I got much from it. So I started looking for podcasts. And I stumbled across Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Being so isolated, it was my main support.

The Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast helped me connect the dots. I did read some books, but I would say the podcasts from Betrayal Trauma Recovery were the main thing that kept me rooted in reality. Where I was like, “Yes, this matches.”

Because like you said, in certain parts of COSA helped kind of. But then listening to the podcast and the different people you would have on was the main thing that rooted me in reality of what I was experiencing.

It was like a big, yes, this fits with what I’m experiencing. And that’s what helped me in a lot of my decision making. His counselor didn’t know about the podcast. But it threatened him that I was learning what I was learning. His counselor even said to him at one point, “She’s reading these books. She’s reading these books.” Like it threatened him cause then I was no longer trapped in the chaos.

Anne:  When you found the BTR podcast was it? Kind of revelatory? Like, was it something totally new that you hadn’t thought of or heard before? Or was it something that you did know inside, but you just didn’t know you knew it?

Elsa: I’d say the latter, for sure.

I work in healthcare, I have some knowledge of like, mental health. So, as I started to listen to it, I’m like, Yes, this makes sense as to what I already know. Like I I knew about attachment and addiction . it was like I knew it was ill treatment but I didn’t think it was as calculated as it was. BTR episodes started to put pieces together.

Anne: When women find the podcast, they’re like, “Yes!” Like they knew it. But they didn’t have words for it or couldn’t bring it to the surface. And they’re also like, “What!? How did I not know?” That’s how I felt. I was like, how am I a college graduate with a master’s degree who doesn’t want to be abused? And not realize I’m being abused? This is crazy. It’s both like, “I knew it.” And then like, “How did I not know it?” at the exact same time?

And it’s such a strange place to be, where at least I felt so stupid that I didn’t see it. But then also not stupid at all because I’d never been educated about it. And all the abuse checklists are like, does he control your transportation? And you’re like, no, does he trap you in a room? No. I mean, maybe he might trap you in a room. I’m not saying he wouldn’t. I’m just saying the classic abuse checklists didn’t seem to fit my situation. It was just confusing.

Elsa: The idea of secret keeping his “power over” resonated with me. I’m like, yeah. Because at first I thought he didn’t realize it was painful for me. Or he didn’t realize the depth of the impact of his actions. But then I circled around to the fact that I didn’t matter to him.

Anne: He uses your feelings against you to control you.

Elsa: Yeah, and that.

Anne: Rather than listening or caring about your feelings. So the only reason he pays attention to your feelings is to manipulate you, control the situation and the narrative. And that’s where women, well meaning, awesome, caring women, don’t know what they’re dealing with. So of course, they’re going to share their feelings with their husband. Because they think in sharing their feelings, they can resolve the issue. They want to know if their abusive husband is changing.

But with an abuser sharing your feelings, it is literally offering them a list of how to manipulate you better. That’s why it’s so important to know what you’re looking at.

Elsa: For sure, yeah. Trust your gut. How do you feel around him? That was a big one for me. I never felt calm, I always felt like something wasn’t right.

During our divorce, the lawyers said, “Let’s subpoena his bank records.”

So I’m like, “Okay, sure.”

And his bank records showed he was at a college bar every night. Then, he started to really just harass me a lot through the parenting app. We had created this parenting plan when we lived in, in the U.S. Which was a part of how to set boundaries.

And when the borders finally opened and we moved , we had no idea of the impact it would have on my daughter. She was barely two at the time. I worked full time, and she was in daycare full time. It was a rigorous schedule for her. Two nights a week, she’d have to be away from home for 12 hours. We’d have to meet him at this neutral location. It’s dark. It’s raining. The roads are bad.

As much feedback as I gave him: that this was so hard on her. Can we please figure out a different way for him to get that one and a half hour visit by extending his weekend visits or something, he just wouldn’t budge. And he could see the difficulty for her in terms of her sleep schedule.

Anne: And for you.

Elsa: Exactly. He knew, and he didn’t care if it was hard on me. And she was just a byproduct of that. So that went on for about six months. And then I just said, “Enough.” I learned how to set boundaries from BTR, from you and your podcast and your group sessions. I said, “You can take me to court, but I’m decreasing this to one night a week on her weeknights.”

And he was a lot of a lot of talk, but then no action. Because if you get down to the truth of everything, of what he actually wants. It’s not that extra one and a half hours. It was more like you said, it was impacting our lives. We had no free time, we’re exhausted all the time. He thought it was fun to make us miserable.

 A lot of crazy making in that he’ll say, “You never give me any time, da da da.” At first I was over explaining and deflecting, and now I don’t do any of that. The parenting app has been so great because it’s all there. It’s all documented.

It’s valid to look back and go, this is all the times I offered.  He knows he doesn’t try to make up any extra time with her, so it’s playing itself out. And the less I engage, the less of a rise he gets from me, the more I have cut down any interaction on the app, to like the bare minimum, he shrinks away.

He doesn’t try to make up any extra time with her, so it’s playing itself out. And the less I engage, the less of a rise he gets from me, the more I have cut down any interaction on the app, to like the bare minimum, he shrinks away.

Anne: I love that you’re using The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop strategies. That is awesome.

The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches you how to think about the abuser, so that you can respond to them in a way that protects you. And learn how to set boundaries. Where he can’t actually cross them.

Elsa: I love that.

Anne:  It is hard ’cause the way other therapists teach boundaries, women are like, “But he keeps crossing my boundaries.” And that’s because the way the therapists teach it is not helpful to victims of abuse. Because it’s possible to set boundaries where he actually can’t cross them.

And women who take the Living Free Workshop learn, in your case, you were like, okay, he’s threatening to take me to court, he wants me to be terrified of losing my daughter. He’s threatening me so I’ll do what he wants. So I’m just gonna say, “Sounds good. This is my attorney’s phone number. Let me know how it goes.”

I mean, some will take you to court, but the majority of them think the threats in and of themselves will work, and they don’t actually wanna spend the time and money and energy to take you to court because in reality, their actions rarely match their words.

In that way, women can be delivered because the strategy is not believing them.

Elsa: Exactly. What you said about the boundaries, I think of that all the time. I share it with other people, because I learned it from you and the podcast. And The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions because many people think it’s a lot of words to describe your boundary. I love that it’s an action, an action you take.I advocate for myself and my daughter. I have the documentation to support decisions. So I’ve protected myself that way.

Anne:  Yeah, that’s the only thing that will actually protect you. Like in the beginning, you’re trying to figure out, is this abuse? What’s going on?

If you’re using the Living Free strategies, you don’t have to ask him, “Hey, are you abusive?” Or tell him, “this is abuse.” You don’t have to bring it up. You can just observe. And you can see that he’s abusive. If you see that he’s abusive, you need to get to safety. But you don’t need to say anything about it. And if you tell them your boundary, it’s a big giant flag that says, “Hey, this is how to abuse me.” So once you know they’re an abuser, you never want to tell them.

Elsa: I learned that from you too. I had to go through some of the documentation recently. And I think it was over 30 counts of him accusing me of being a parental alienator and narcissist. And I don’t comment. There’s no point, but yeah, he heavily projects on me that I’m mentally unstable.

Setting boundaries has protected my peace because otherwise, he’s always diminishing me or invalidating me. Or make snide remarks about, or attack, your character.

Before I just believed him when he said he loved me and he wouldn’t do it again. But now, he can’t do it to me. I’ve even watched my own daughter tell him no, like on a video call. Like she says, “No I don’t like that book.” And there he goes again, telling her “Of course you like it. You just don’t know that you do yet.” It’s constant harassment to her.

So now that I know how to set boundaries because I learned that from The Living Free Workshop, I don’t have to experience that anymore because I protect myself from him.

Anne: I’m so glad the strategies worked for you. I’ve heard that from so many women. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I appreciate the time that you’ve taken to talk with us today.

Elsa: Yeah, thank you so much for everything.

 It’s hard to know what to do when your husband says he doesn’t love you anymore. If this has happened to you, here’s what you need to know.

Did you know there are 19 different types of emotional abuse? To see if you can recognize the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne: Today we’re gonna cover what happens when your husband says he doesn’t love you anymore. We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Denise. This happened to her. Here’s a preview of what she said.

“I felt like he hates me. He hates my guts. I had asked him , “When did your heart turn against me?” So then he tells me…”

You’ll find out what he tells her later on in the story.

If this has happened to you, where your husband has told you he doesn’t love you anymore. Here are two things to consider.

Number one, get educated about emotional and psychological abuse because there’s a chance that this is part of your story, even if it doesn’t seem like it. You’ll hear about how Denise’s husband used two psychological abuse tactics: mirroring and countering. So as you listen, see if you can identify when that happens. And number, two is to observe their actions. And I’ll talk more about that in today’s interview.

So welcome, Denise.

Denise: Yeah, I met my ex online. I was in my 40s and had never been married. I always said I didn’t want to get married until I met the one. Like, the one, and I made sure, because I didn’t want a bad marriage. Um, turns out that I apparently didn’t know what that looked like.

So Yeah, he’d been, married before, was a widower, he took care of his late wife, and, seemed to be financially responsible.

The first date was great.

But then on the next date, we went for a hike, and I was asking him questions, and he couldn’t answer simple questions, like, what’s your favorite movie?

Denise: The third date was just awkward, something feels off. And I told him I wouldn’t date him.

I didn’t think he was ready for a relationship, like maybe he needed to heal some more.

Anne: How long after his wife’s death did you start?

Denise: Like three and a half months

So I told him I wouldn’t date him.

But we were hanging out as friends and we would argue all the time. People would say, “what are you arguing about?” Like, I don’t even know, I don’t know what we were arguing about. It was really confusing to me because I’m not a really argumentative person, but for some reason I was drawn to him.

Denise: And then all of a sudden, literally one day, he changed and there was no more arguing. It was almost like this happy wife, happy life thing. I thought okay, he hadn’t dated in a long time, that was a fluke. That’s what I thought. That was a fluke. He’s realized he was just being an idiot and now he’s ready to step up and be himself and be respectful.

Anne: Wow! That was a sudden heart change.

Denise: Yes, exactly. And then after that, we got along really well. I had so much fun.

Looking back now, I can see things that I didn’t notice at the time, but at the time, everything seemed great. I just kept telling people like how blessed I was. This was amazing. His friends were all telling me how wonderful he was and random people we would meet would tell me like, “you are lucky, he is a good man.”

My family loved him. I mean, it was like everybody. No one thought there would be a time where I’d have to figure out what to do if he said he didn’t love me anymore. No one ever thought something like that would ever happen.

Anne: Did he have kids from his first marriage?

Denise: He did. They were preteen, and early teen.

Denise: There were a couple of little other flukes that happened while we were dating or after we were engaged and I thought they were flukes, one of them happened when my niece was graduating from college and I wanted to go to her graduation.

We were engaged at the time and he had never been to that area of the United States. So, he’s like, “why don’t you plan the trip then, since you’ve been there before and we can do our family vacation and go to your niece’s graduation at the same time.” I’m like, Oh, that would be wonderful.

Like I’d been there. He hadn’t. So, we asked the kids if they wanted to do anything like specific in that area. They didn’t want to look anything up. So I was like, I guess I’m planning it. And he was like, “I trust you.”

So, we go on this trip and he starts getting angry at me for not having planned it better and I was like, really confused. That’s what a lot of this whole thing was, a lot of confusion. Like, you asked me to plan it, if you wanted to do it a certain way, you should have stepped in and planned it yourself or said you wanted something else. I mean, it’s common sense. I saw on that trip what he was just, angry, bitter, and yelling at me.

Denise: That was, before the wedding and I thought it was a one off.

Anne: like a fluke.

Denise: Mm hmm.

And then, there was one more that I see now as major. I thought it was him being under a lot of stress. It was right before the wedding. He said he wanted our bank accounts to be merged, which is what I wanted. I wanted 100 percent commitment, all in, everything shared.

I wanted to be a stay at home mom. That was my goal. He was totally up for that. So, right before the wedding, he starts getting angry that he’s paying more for the wedding than I am.

And I was like, weird, cause we’re merging everything. He wasn’t arguing that he didn’t want something at the wedding. He was saying he wanted me to pay for it.

Anne: Are you okay if we pause right here?

Denise: totally

Anne: This is how mirroring works. He’s not gonna tell you how he feels until you tell him how you feel, so he can just mirror back to you your own interests and your own opinions. So he’s gonna find out what your favorite movie genre is, and then he’s gonna say, me too. He’s gonna wait until he knows how you feel about politics. And then he’s going to mirror your opinions back to you. And then later he’ll have a “change of heart”  when really he didn’t have those opinions in the first place.

So in terms of choosing a good husband, if you’re thinking about dating or getting to know someone, try asking them questions like this before you tell them how you feel and see how they respond.

Denise: That actually makes complete sense. I hadn’t thought of it in that way but now that you say that, I was thinking back, like, after I told him what my favorite movie was, then he said that he liked that one too. Most everything, it seemed like it was a fluke that he liked the same things I did, it was like, oh my , we’re like exactly the same.

This is crazy. I’m like, yeah, this is crazy. I never, imagined that we would like this many things the same.

Anne: So when you talked about this period of time where you were just friends and he was arguing with you quite a bit.

My guess is that he was countering. Countering is an abuse tactic where they counter basically, everything you say. It’s very similar to like a 15 year old. My son counters right now from time to time, cause he’s 15 and I’m like legit every single thing I’m saying you’re disagreeing with.

And he’s like, “no, I’m not.” I’m like, there you go again. This is happening right now. It’s a really immature way of trying to overpower somebody else. He was countering maybe, to determine how confident you were in your opinions.

And when he realized you’re very confident in your opinions, he also realized he wasn’t gonna be able to groom you that way.

And then, he made an abrupt heart change to acting kind and egalitarian. That’s where you saw that shift when he realized you weren’t looking for the strong, like take charge type. She’s looking more for a partner. It sounds like it was either arguing or everything was perfect.

Denise: Yeah, that is how it felt and that’s the way it was. It was extreme.

Anne: They use communication in this way to manipulate. That’s why learning to communicate better doesn’t solve an abuse problem, and that’s why the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free strategies are so important. Using those strategies will help you see what their true intent is and what they’re actually doing.

So he was using those tactics on you, and you didn’t realize it because, why would you? We’re not educated on what to do if he says doesn’t love us.

Did you know about any porn use?

Denise: That was really important for me to talk to him about before the wedding. He said he had a box of Playboys in the basement. And he was like, “I don’t want to have anything to do with that, I just need to destroy those.” So he told me he burned all of them and I tried really hard not to push him, because I wanted anything like that to come from him.

He wasn’t Catholic. I didn’t ask him to become Catholic.

I just told him going to church was really important to me and going together was really important to me. So we went to both churches.

Denise: But then, I noticed on the honeymoon that he was doing things on purpose to hurt me. Like there were things before that hurt me, you know, I didn’t like that, or we need to work on this. He would like, abruptly turn away from me in bed, just like a rejection.

And I told him I didn’t like it and he just kept doing it. I was like, okay, this is meant to hurt me, which was very shocking to me because I thought I married my knight in shining armor, the countering got so bad while we were…

I don’t even like to say intimate because it wasn’t reality, like within weeks of the wedding, he was screaming at me, telling me that I was selfish and that I didn’t care about him. I’m like, what is happening here? Screaming isn’t one of the types of physical intimacy, haha.

I am super confused. I mean, you know, you’ve been through it, all the torture, the angst.

Anne: So when he starts doing this on the honeymoon during intimate times, and I agree with you, calling it intimacy is like a joke because it wasn’t intimate at all, and you recognize this is on purpose. What did you think was the cause of this sudden heart?

Denise: I just thought he needed healing, you know, he had a rough childhood. He was married. She was ill for a long time. He said she was depressed all the time and then she passed away. Raising his kids on his own, like he couldn’t handle stuff.

Denise: At this point I had lost my job. We had spent all of my money on groceries. My bank accounts were empty. I had absolutely nothing.

He wouldn’t put me on the accounts. He kept saying he was going to like, “Oh, I forgot. Oh, we should have done that.” So, I had no income, no job, and no money in the bank. I’m destitute.

At this point, I had already had one miscarriage, and I took another pregnancy test. It was negative, but he thought it was positive and he thought I was pregnant. He was like, “yeah, I think you should leave.”

Anne: And you’ve been single, so you’re used to being independent. You’re used to to paying your own bills.

And then to be in this vulnerable position of realizing that your husband doesn’t love you for the first time must have felt like a trap.

Denise: yeah.

Anne: that is shocking.

Denise: But I thought we were on the same path going the same direction and there were these like little jolts off of the path, but that he really wanted to be on that path and he would come back and we would keep moving in the same direction.

Four months after the wedding, things had gotten so bad. He was screaming at me all the time. I kind of laugh, but it’s not funny at all. I mean, I look back and I’m just like, what the heck?

It was just insane. He kept bringing up that trip we had taken, blaming me because we didn’t do things that were kid friendly and, literally, I was begging him, like, I’m trying to be the best mom and wife that I can be please give me some mercy.

For, not knowing what the kids would enjoy, like I’m doing the best I can, yeah, I’m going to fail. I’m not perfect. Don’t you think I deserve a little bit of mercy?

And in front of one of his kids, he said, “you don’t deserve mercy.” It’s just like, there’s nowhere to go, nowhere to go with that.

Anne: So, at this point, when you see that your husband says he’s had a drastic heart change, what did you do?

Denise: I finally started telling people what was going on.

And I have a few friends who told me about the cycle of abuse.

I didn’t have any bruises or anything, I was confused, and knew this wasn’t healthy. So, I looked it up and I was like, this is exactly what’s happening, but It’s not just like I’m dating and he’s abusive to me. There was a wedding. And of course, like most women do, oh, but this is the way he was.

Is he going to get back to this point? So, when I was shown the truth, I started searching for a therapist and trying to do everything I could to to heal it.

Denise: During the time that we were together, we saw four different therapists. Three of them sided with him, even after he was either abusive to me in front of them or he told them he was abusive to me. They still sided with him.

At one point he is sitting face to face, my hands in his hands and he’s telling me how much he loves me and he’s so sorry and one therapist was like, “don’t you hear him? Can’t you hear him?”

I was just like, I don’t even know if he means it right now, but in five minutes he’s not going to, that’s the problem. And she didn’t get it.

Anne: This is crazy pants! Were you surprised at how unhelpful therapy was? Because couples therapy is kind of like everybody’s solution. And many therapists don’t consider the possibility that your husband doesn’t love you or he is abusive if he’s coming to couples therapy with you.

Denise: Yes. One of the questions I asked before we chose this therapist was, “Can you spot narcissism?”

Anne: Did she say yes?

Denise: Of course, of course, they all say yes.

And after that, she wouldn’t even answer my calls. I think she was probably so confused by the whole thing.

Anne: It’s really hard when you go to someone for help, and you have to educate them about what’s happening rather than the other way around.

Denise: Then about a month later, I left him the first time. I called someone to tell them I was leaving and that I was worried about his kids.

This person told me, “we all knew it wasn’t going to work out…He was completely fake the whole time you were dating.”

I was like, why didn’t anybody tell me this?

They said it was “because they were afraid that, he wouldn’t let them have a relationship with the kids.”

But this person hadn’t been really nice to me. So I was like, Oh, do I trust this person or not? I have no idea.

Are they playing me?

I must’ve been looking up betrayal trauma, and I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and I ended up listening quite a bit. I was able to use all the tools from the betrayal podcast and from the group, because I was in the group a total of a year and a half. Going to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions was so enlightening. I could not have done this without BTR.ORG.

Unfortunately, after that, he was like, “there’s this retreat thing. A Catholic retreat for people on the verge of the decision to divorce, to try to heal the relationship.” And they say in there, “if there’s abuse, this doesn’t work.”

So he set it up. We went to that and he said, “I want this, I want to be with you, blah, blah, blah,” and of course, he acted like everything was great and we’re all healed. That was right when all the COVID lockdowns were just starting and I was like, I should be with him to figure this out.

Denise: So, I moved back. and it was actually decent, for quite a while.

And then eight months later, it started going downhill really fast.

So I was trying to get to another therapist and on the same day that we’re meeting with a therapist, he tells me he has a meeting with a divorce lawyer.

Just like why are we meeting with a therapist if you’re meeting with a divorce lawyer, and then he told one of his kids he was divorcing me. I felt like this guy hates me. He hates my guts. I had asked him, when did you stop loving me? Because I still didn’t understand that it was all fake beforehand.

Denise: So then, he tells me that it was at our reception.

Anne: Your wedding reception?!

Denise: Yes…I know, right?!

Anne: What in the world?!

Denise: …He overheard this friend saying, “she’s got herself a sugar daddy.” And that was it, according to him, which is just a lie anyway.

Like, you don’t turn against your spouse because somebody makes a joke!

Anne: yeah.

Denise: Even if you don’t like the joke.

Anne: No.

Denise: Yeah. I was just in shock, and I was like, well, the timeline makes sense.

Anne: The true timeline was the second he married you, he was like, now I don’t have to wear the mask anymore.

Denise: Yeah.

Anne: “She’s stuck with me.” So that’s the real timeline. After the reception, he didn’t feel like he had to treat you well anymore. Not that he overheard somebody tell a joke.

Denise: Yeah. I think honestly, he was telling people negative things about me before the wedding.

There were people who weren’t going to go to our wedding, because they didn’t like that he was marrying a Catholic. It didn’t cross my mind that he would be complaining about me to his friends.

So, a lot of his friends didn’t want to come to the wedding.

Anne: Um, through all the interviews I’ve done, I see a lot of patterns. One I see frequently is goldfish brain. They only care about the thing they want in the moment, like right then, like what is right in front of them.

And so they’ll say something to get that thing. And then literally two hours later, they’ll want something else, hence the heart change. So, they’ll say the opposite thing to get the other thing, and it’s so confusing. So, to have him throw you under the bus at his own wedding, thinking that’s going to benefit him somehow, while also grooming you long term…this is a sure sign that he never loved you.

There’s these two simultaneous things that seem contradictory, but they have a goal in mind and they play the long game to get what they want.

They’re able to groom you until they get what they want. It just shows how unsafe the situation is for you, psychologically and emotionally.

Denise: Yeah, it’s just some crazy stuff so, I ended up leaving again.

Denise: We ended up going to counseling and while we were in front of this counselor he tells me that “he took all of the money out of the account so that I couldn’t have anything.” I had a new job at this point and I was making a decent amount of money. But he says that in front of the counselor. This is financial abuse.

Anne: Absolutely, yeah!

Denise: I mean, he said it right in front of the counselor. So months later, when I was trying to get the counselor to write something for me the counselor said, “well, I can’t lie and say he was abusive.”

Anne: WHAT?!!

Denise: I was like, I’m not asking you to lie. He was abusive right in front of you. He told me in front of you that he took all the money out of the joint account so that I wouldn’t get any. Didn’t you take notes? He never responded.

Anne: He wouldn’t even admit your husband doesn’t love you?!

Denise: Guess not.

Anne: Sorry. This is the woman who’s always telling people therapists don’t get it and I’m like, what?

Denise: And then you’re shocked. Yeah. Yeah.

Anne: It’s still shocking. When it’s clear…I’m thinking that he’s financially abusive in my head and I’m not saying that out loud. But then, to hear that a therapist just completely doesn’t acknowledge that it’s abuse, is so crazy.

Denise: Yeah, I was in like crazy land.

Denise: So we’re apart and I’m in my own apartment.

I think I just knew myself well enough, that I had to keep trying until I got to a point where I was absolutely sure this was never going to work. So we were apart for like 10 months. I told him I wasn’t going to move back into that other house it’s like, I’m not moving back in there. These are the things I need.

While we’re apart, I’m going to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions that are super helpful and really eye opening, but I didn’t quite get it. Then, we ended up getting this house, everything fell into place. I told him, do you really want this? Because if this happens again, I’m leaving and it’s for good. There’s not going to be any more back and forth.

He said, “This is it. And of course, oh, yeah, of course. I’m so sorry and all this stuff.”

Denise: He decided to become Catholic, so he started learning about the faith and going to church. And he’s like, will you be my sponsor? I’m like, no, if you’re doing this, you’re doing it on your own, cause I knew if I helped in any way he would accuse me of forcing him. So I was like, if you want to become Catholic, that’s your own thing.

I never asked you to do it. I’m not pushing you. So he went through the whole process and became Catholic and things got, you know, “better and better.”

Denise: And, um, yeah, within nine months, I moved out again.

Anne: That point, you’d been going to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions.

You’d been more educated about abuse from hearing other women’s stories on this betrayal podcast.

So at this point, was it a little bit, I don’t want to say easier cause it’s never easy. And I don’t want to say that it ever is easy. There seems to be some kind of point where it clicks that he never loved you, he’s abusive, and I need to make some changes.

At least there was for me where I just knew I wasn’t going to do it anymore. And up until that point, I don’t know if I could have anything else. You know, I was doing the very best I could.

Denise: Yeah, absolutely.

I knew it was abuse. My friends knew it was abuse.

Denise: I thought the abuse was happening more often and getting worse over time.

We were weaning out of this abusive pattern is what I thought. And so I was like, all right, we’ll just deal with it when we’re in this abusive pattern.

Denise: He started seeing a counselor he liked, and things got better. I saw the changes, but I didn’t feel as confident about it as I did before.

Before I would argue.

When I went back, I was like, I’m not arguing anymore. I’m just going to state what I need and want. That’s it. Then, when I went back the second time, I understood to observe. And then I knew it was time to get out of there. It wasn’t safe.

Denise: He was going to see the priest.

And I said, I wanted to go too. So, we went, and literally he was screaming at me the whole time. The priest stood in front of him and tried to talk about integrity. He looked frustrated and finally asked my ex, “Do you even want to be married?” And my ex with this shocked look on his face was like, “Yes. Like, how could you ask that?”

Anne: Like, he’s saying, “your husband doesn’t love you. It seems like he hates your guts.”

Denise: Right.

My ex said he felt trapped. And I was like, then leave!

And he wouldn’t leave, I’m like, what is happening?

Denise: Yeah. It’s so like ridiculous. Then the priest looked at me and asked, “Do you want to be married?” But I knew if I said no, that would start a ball rolling that I wasn’t ready for.

Denise: So, I said, I’m not quite sure and, then I got my papers together, got them out of the house, did everything that I could.

One of the kids went out with his family, and I thought, “I need to wait until he comes back.” I wanted him to return to school and get comfortable before I left. So, I waited another four or five days, which felt so hard. During that time, I kept telling him, “You’re going down this road, and you need to remember what I said.”

If I leave, it’s going to be for good. Is that what you really want? Because that’s the direction you’re choosing. I could have left at any time, but I was praying like, I want the time that’s the best for me, that’s going to be best for the kids. If there is such a thing, that’s when I want to leave.

Denise: And all of a sudden one morning it was like, today. I’m like, all right, today.

I’m leaving today.

Anne: You bring up a good point, because so many women share, and I was this way, too. It just didn’t feel right to leave and I honor that. And then, at the same time, it’s abuse. There’s no part where you’re going to feel like this is great. It’s just always going to feel terrible. And then, you just realize that he’s never been capable of loving anybody.

Denise: Yeah. And it’s never the wrong time to leave either. It’s not like you have to stay until, you know, you can leave whenever. I didn’t think God wanted me in an abusive relationship, and you need this one more little bit of abuse and then you’re good to go or anything like that.

You know, I just felt like, all right, I’m good to go. Like I’m ready and it’s time.

So, that’s when I left.

Denise: I wanted to see what does the bible say about narcissistic abuse. So I found these verses and I want to read you. I don’t hear anybody talking about. And to me, it has spoken volumes.

Anne: Yes, please.

Denise: It’s Second Timothy, chapter three, verses one through nine in the revised standard Catholic edition.
“In the last days, there will come times of stress.

For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers.”

I don’t even know what this word is, “profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding the form religion, but denying the power of it. Avoid such people.”

I found that and like, a light came down from heaven.

It seems to describe narcissism.

Anne: Perfectly.

Denise: Yeah, perfectly. I don’t know why nobody else is quoting that. And then it says, leave them. Like, don’t be around these people.

Anne: I love that scripture. I don’t know if I’ve ever quoted it on the betrayal podcast, but I’m familiar with it for that same reason. Scriptures say all over the place, separate yourself from wickedness repeatedly, over and over. When he can’t love, it’s wickedness.

It’s shocking that no one calls these guys wicked. Here’s why.

Denise: Yeah. It explains a lot of what evil looks like, and it looks exactly like narcissism.

Really intelligent, but at the same time, this four year old tantrum.

Anne: Yes.

Denise: Yeah, I would describe my experience as being toe to toe with evil. It’s not For the weak hearted.

Anne: No.

Women who come and share their story, like you have seen evil, looked evil in the face and had to figure out what to do. When he has never loved us, we felt tricked, but we still tried to do the right thing.

It’s so much more difficult than anyone can imagine.

Denise: Like at the time, and for a long time afterward, I would not have said this, but I actually am at the point where I look back and I’m like, I like who I am so much better after having gone through this evil situation. If I had to choose between who I was before and who I am now, I would pick who I am now. To become this person, I had to go through this situation, but I would do it all over again. It was hard, but it helped me grow and change for the better.

And I think that’s a testament to God, his whole goal is for us to have good, and can bring good out of any horrendous situation.

Anne: I get it especially when women are new and they’re not safe yet.

The idea that an experience can make someone a better person sounds unfair. It feels like saying, “If you were the person you should be, this wouldn’t have happened to you.” This puts the blame on the person, which isn’t right.

Or alternatively, women who are thinking they have to suffer through this, thinking they don’t deserve safety and that God is like using their suffering to make them a better person.

God doesn’t want you to suffer because your husband doesn’t love you. He knows you’re not a bad person, and you didn’t deserve this to make you better.

You’re a wonderful person now, he loves you just the way you are. And through this awful experience, we do learn interesting things that I’m grateful for.

I am grateful that I am the person I am now. Because of what I went through, I have a heart change that values my safety.

Denise: I learned a few practical things. Now, I can see similar situations that I didn’t notice before. I noticed that some people in my life made me feel unsafe, so I decided to cut them out. Now I feel better and more at peace. Before, I didn’t understand that. After I left the last time, I thought I would finally feel relief, but I didn’t. That’s when I saw that a few other people treated me the same way, or in a very similar way.

And, it was painful to cut them out, but after I cut them out, I felt the relief.

Anne: And that’s why we’re here. Getting to safety is such an individual journey for everyone.

The only thing any of us can do on this path is continue to listen to our internal warning system (see our educational infographics about betrayal on Instagram) that is telling us if we’re safe or not, and continue to evolve our boundaries until we feel that relief. It’s our own version of a heart change for the better. And I talk about this in the Living Free Workshop. And then you still don’t feel relief and then you try again and it still isn’t quite working and then you try again like, just as an example, that, Catholic retreat you went to for couples on the verge of divorce.

Anne: Did you know that was you resisting this abuse?

That was you recognizing that he never loved you, and evolving, having your own heart change.
At the time, you thought, “Maybe this couple’s retreat will help me find safety.” And then you learn from experience that it didn’t. So, then you evolved and said, “Okay, now I know I can’t go to therapy with him at all, because he hasn’t had a heart change that made me feel safe.”

We grow and change over time. Now, you might say, “I feel relief and safe.” For me, I felt relief when I used the Living Free strategies and gained full custody of my kids. After my divorce, someone hurt me for eight years. I kept wondering, “How can I find real safety?” Then, I found a way to take control and create a safe life for myself and my kids.

Anne: I’m so glad that Betrayal Trauma Recovery was helpful to you.

Denise: Yeah, it was a lifesaver. I went to groups. For a while I went once a day, and then, the second time I joined, it was a few times a week. The coaches were always amazing and so kind, but also firm and direct.

Hearing from the other women really helped me, because you’re in this bubble, kind of, in your relationship. I don’t want to really call it a relationship, in your situation, like you’re the only one experiencing it, so you don’t see all the nuances. I really think evil is not creative.

It feels like the same thing keeps happening again and again. That’s why so many stories seem so similar. I remember someone saying she thought she lost something. She searched and searched for it for a long time.

Suddenly, I realized, “Oh, that’s what the hiding was about!” It made me remember, “That happened to me, and I didn’t even know it was abuse.” Learning the right words for these things has helped me so much. I am Catholic, and I’m going through the annulment process right now. Thanks to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I learned terms like “mirroring” and “future faking.” With this knowledge, I feel confident and clear as I write my annulment letter.

It was helpful to wrap my mind around the truth of this situation, that my husband doesn’t love me.

Anne: I’m so glad it was helpful. My whole goal in life is to help women see the truth, like your husband doesn’t love you or whatever the truth is. Whether it’s painful or not. The Living Free Workshop strategies are a way to observe from a safe distance, so that women see the truth, and have their own heart change for their safety.

I’m so glad that you’re safe it’s such a brave thing to share your story and it will help a lot of women. So thank you.

Denise: And thank you for everything you do. You’re very courageous. I tell so many women about Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

When a woman finds out her husband has been lying, one question she usually asks is, “Is my husband addicted to…” Here’s what you really need to know.

Before reading on, did you know that the real issue may be emotional abuse? To test this theory, if your husband uses p***graphy, take this free emotional abuse quiz. See if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse.

If you’ve just discovered your husband has been lying to you and he claims struggling with addiction, but it doesn’t feel right—trust your gut. The truth might not be about addiction at all. Often, the real issue is emotional and psychological abuse.

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we help women recognize the patterns of invisible abuse that hide behind lies. Here’s how to tell if your husband’s behavior is less about addiction and more about control and manipulation.

Addiction might seem like a reasonable explanation for your husband’s lies, but if your husband’s actions hurt your peace and confidence, it’s important to only focus on how they affect you. This shift will change everything.

If your husband repeatedly chooses behaviors that hurt you, it’s more than a personal struggle. It’s abuse.

If your husband says he’s lying because he’s an addict, ask yourself this question—does he take responsibility for the pain he’s caused? Or does he make excuses, shift blame, or manipulate you into feeling sorry for him?

Addiction doesn’t justify:

These actions aren’t slips from an addict—they’re tactics abusers use to maintain control.

One common lie many women hear is that exploitative materials use is just a private problem or a personal addiction. But here’s the reality:

If your husband’s actions have harmed you, the best step is to learn how to protect yourself from further harm. Here’s where to start:

Abusive online content is accepted, encouraged, and normalized in our society. While its effects are denied, minimized, and even justified.

When men choose to use exploitative content, they exploit and abuse women – many of whom are underage. Violence against women is common in this type of material.

Men literally have a response to the video proof of women and children brutalized and raped. How could that not be abusive?

Many so-called addicts will rally against the truth that this content is abusive. They claim that “ethical p****graphy” empowers women.

However, this fallacy is both dangerous and offensive. “Ethical” is the ultimate oxymoron. There is no healthy way to view something created through coercive, exploitative tactics.

When men consume this type of material, they are, by default, abusing their wife because:

As men consume this type of abuse, they’re being conditioned to coerce and abuse women and underage girls. We understand the depth of horror and pain women experience when betrayed.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group offers victims a safe place to process trauma, share hard feelings, and ask questions. Attend a session today.

Anne: It’s just me today. If you just found out about your husband’s lies. And you’re wondering is my husband addicted to whatever he just lied about? Here’s what you need to know. If you caught your husband lying. And then your husband said, I’m addicted to … And he claims he’s struggling with addiction. The truth might not be about addiction. Often the real issue is emotional and psychological abuse. So here’s what you need to know about addiction in marriage.

Addiction might seem like a reasonable explanation for your husband’s lies. But if your husband’s actions hurt your peace and confidence, it’s important to focus only on how they affect you, and this shift will change everything. Because if your husband repeatedly chooses behaviors that hurt you, this is about more than just his “personal struggle.” Lies aren’t addiction. Lies are emotional and psychological abuse.

So, if your husband is lying and his excuse is that he’s an addict, ask yourself this question. Is he taking responsibility for the pain he causes? Or does he make excuses, shift blame, or manipulate you to feel sorry for him?

Because addiction doesn’t justify lying about his whereabouts. Or that he plays the victim, so you feel sorry for him. He’s actually harming you. It doesn’t justify hiding money, denying conversations, or gaslighting when you ask questions. It doesn’t justify psychological abuse in telling you that you’re too sensitive or blowing something out of proportion, when what he’s done is serious.

Anne: These actions aren’t slips from an addict, they’re tactics abusers use to maintain control. You may ask, is my husband addicted? So let’s talk specifically about addiction and why exploitative material is an abuse issue. It’s not so much that I think talking about it as an abuse issue is fun, because everything about abuse is miserable. But educating women about this type of abuse is my absolute favorite thing to do. I have a master’s degree in education. I’m an abuse educator.

And because I talk about abuse all day long, I’ve developed a dark sense of humor. So I appreciate your patience. When it comes to abuse, it’s not a “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” situation. It’s what doesn’t kill you, really harms you, and limits your ability to function and feel joy for a long time. It’s miserable to learn why it is abusive from experience. And extremely difficult to learn how to protect yourself from this type of abuse.

Most people don’t give victims of this type of abuse, the correct information. So that’s my intent today. I don’t want any woman to experience this type of abuse, not know what it is, and not know how to protect yourself. That’s why I’m doing this episode today.

So exploitative materials use is a form of abuse. And there are multiple reasons why it’s abuse. I’m going to work from the outside in as we go over these reasons.

Anne: So reason number one: it fuels trafficking, and most exploitative media is video evidence of a victim’s coercion or assault. The industry says women are happy being abused. In fact, they’ve “consented” to it. But they are coerced. The money is the coercion. There is no woman wants to be filmed being violently attacked. Because that’s what most of it is today.

I’m a feminist. There are some feminists who say this somehow empowers women, and I absolutely disagree. Women have contracted diseases. The toxic “work” environment breaks them emotionally. Anyone who insists that it empowers women is not operating from a trauma-informed perspective. On the type of psychological grooming, emotional manipulation, and verbal manipulation that women encounter in the industry.

Is my husband addicted? There’s a general naivety among the mass consumers of exploitative media about how things work. Talking with the amazing people at the national center on exploitation. I’ve learned over the years. Statistics show if you watched 30 minutes of it. You are guaranteed to see someone who is there against their will. So even if somebody thinks they’re watching “ethical or free trade material.” There are a ton of euphemisms out there.

That’s not true. Women entrapped in this type of slavery are considered products. Producers use and sell their bodies as products. So if somebody views it, they’re getting pleasure from someone else’s abuse. There’s no healthy way to do that.

Anne: Is my husband addicted? The second reason why it is an abuse issue is that my husband’s use is abusive to me. Use is directly tied to loss of intimacy, reduced empathy, and addictive behaviors. The effect of it on his brain, emotions, and empathy is a net negative. My husband’s use didn’t, and no man’s use makes him more compassionate, more kind, or more capable of connecting with other people. Especially, not me as his wife.

The use of exploitative material is an act outside of marriage. Most men don’t just use. They also lie, deceive, manipulate and gaslight their wives to hide their use. So their wife doesn’t know how much they’re using. It takes time to use it. It takes 15 minutes, a half hour, an hour, two hours. However long it takes them to masturbate. That is how long it takes.

So this is time they are taking away from their job, childcare, housework, and reducing their wife’s mental load. I mean, they’re spending time thinking about how can I get privacy to use? They’re not thinking, how can I help my wife? What are the kids doing today? How can I help with carpool?

In fact, he thinks it’s my wife’s job to do all the childcare, housework and everything. So if she asks me questions about what I’m doing, or expects anything from me, like how dare she! It’s my right to have time to view these videos of women abused and masturbate.

There’s some good research you can find at The National Center on Exploitation about how use escalates over time.

Anne: So it takes more intense material for a man to get an erection, and for him to actually masturbate. So over time, he’s having to watch more of it, or watch more hardcore to do it. So what I believe should be between two people as an act of love and connection. For a user is spouting out sperm in front of a computer. There’s no need to pay attention to the other person’s feelings.

It’s all take. There’s absolutely no give. Is my husband addicted? And that’s the third reason why it is an abuse issue. It destroys sharing in marriage, and turns it into something that you experience alone. So it destroys the relationship. It’s not just abuse, because the people in the it are abused. And he’s not just abusive to us when he’s using it, because he has no empathy and care for us.

He uses all his mental energy to figure out how to lie to us. So he can be all by himself, using it. It’s also abusing the relationship, because it destroys the relationship. So that’s the third reason why it’s an abuse issue. He misuses or abuses the relationship. A marriage relationship is intended as a caring, loving, equally respectful relationship. Where people are relating out of care. But a user doesn’t operate from that perspective.

Anne: Is my husband addicted? He operates as if it’s a transactionship. So, for example, he just needs to say the right words to get the result he wants. So if he says, oh, you look so beautiful today. I love you so much. You’re amazing. That makes it much easier for him to follow up with. I’m so grateful that you’re so supportive of my job. I’m so sorry. I have to work late tonight. I’m going to be in the office. I’m going to lock the doors. So the kids don’t bother me, but just know that I care about you and I’m doing all this for our family.

And then goes in his office, locks the door and he’s not actually working. He’s just using in there. He’s abusing the relationship. Because he sees it as a series of transactions and uses deceit to make those transactions.

I think that using exploitative material is a form of adultery. This is how infidelity destroys the relationship. The solution to this abuse of the relationship isn’t to say, If we watch it together, then it’s not abusing the relationship because we’re doing it together. No, doing something unhealthy together is not going to make the relationship healthy.

Anne: Is my husband addicted? The CSAT therapist would like to call this addiction rather than abuse. And I disagree, it’s abuse. It should be called abuse. I think if they try to treat it, they should be treating abuse. And the only thing that any addiction recovery professional should say to a victim of this type of abuse is you’re a victim of abuse. Focus on protecting yourself. That’s it.

Whether it’s addictive or not. This is a choice your husband is making day in and day out about what he thinks about, about how he spends his time. And if he’s been doing this for years, This is who he has become. The lying, the deception, the manipulation, all of this has become his character. And that’s what people mean when they say he’s abusive. Abuse is a character problem.

It’s important to know that abuse is a character problem, because a lot of emotional and psychological abuse will feel good to the victim. That type of manipulation is going to cause us as victims to feel loved. and cared for. Even though it’s manipulation. This is sometimes called grooming or hoovering. So if our husband has this type of abusive character, The only reason he chooses to do things that feel good for us is to achieve a goal. And his goal is often to either hide the truth or exploit us somehow.

So it’s dangerous, no matter what, it’s dangerous, if he’s manipulating through manipulative kindness, it’s just more obvious if he’s manipulating through threats, verbal abuse, or overt forms of emotional and psychological abuse. and verbal abuse.

Anne: The addiction, industrial complex does not want to correctly identify this. Is my husband addicted? They won’t say he has an abusive character. They’re going to say it’s an addiction and the addiction is a disease and the logical outcome of thinking that our husband has a disease. is for us as victims to have compassion for our abuser. When the thing we need to do is protect ourselves.

It’s not like he’s a cancer patient. And he has no choice. He does have choices. Men who use this material are not helpless. The bigger question is can they think about women as people. Can they accept that women are human and that we are equal to them. That we were not created for their use or for them to exploit. But that our feelings matter just as much as theirs.

If he wants to have it and we don’t want to have it. Those are equal. Because we are equal. And so all things being equal. He’s an adult. He has choices. If we can put time, effort, and thought into how to have a better marriage. So can he. If we can figure this out, he can figure this out. He knows how to act appropriately, because he is kind in public. He knows how to be kind. And he chooses to be kind as a manipulation tactic.

He doesn’t have an integrity disorder. He just doesn’t have integrity. For so long, I was in this addiction recovery space with my ex-husband. I was not seeing him as abusive. I was viewing everything he did through that lens of addiction.

Anne: And that’s exactly why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to help you SEE what is actually happening. The way that I talk about abuse, is very mainstream. If you went to a domestic violence shelter and explained the manipulation, lies, deception, and disrespect that you’re experiencing. Is my husband addicted? Those domestic abuse experts at the domestic violence shelter would confirm that you’re experiencing abuse. I haven’t invented this out of nowhere.

These are very typical classic abusive behaviors. It’s just that the addiction industrial complex doesn’t want you to know that. And so they don’t bring that up. And I think the main reason is that they know if it’s abuse, a woman should just focus on protecting herself. If a addiction professional is an abuse expert. They know that he’s only going to treatment as a way to continue manipulating and exploiting his wife.

That he doesn’t need treatment, to be honest at any time. He could say, hey, it was a choice and I chose to use because it was way easier than trying to have a relationship. And I just want to ejaculate. All I care about is the orgasm and it’s way easier with it. It doesn’t expect anything. Instead in addiction treatment. He’ll come up with all these excuses and reasons. For why he’s compelled.

And you end up paying thousands and thousands of dollars for him to string you along and continue to exploit you and manipulate you. Because the addiction treatment industry doesn’t give victims of this type of abuse in any way to protect ourselves.

Anne: And they know that if she realizes this, he’ll have no reason to go anymore. And then they’ll lose a client. And then won’t get paid as much. Is my husband addicted? If he hasn’t found the treatment program all by himself, scheduled his own appointments, and done everything without you as a victim mentioning anything to him. Meaning, if you’re the one that found the therapist, if you schedule the appointments, if you’re managing his treatment in any way.That is one of the biggest indications. That he does not intend to change.

Because if he did intend to change, he would have done all of that on his own. If you’re capable of doing it, he’s capable of doing it. Sex addiction professionals know this. They always want the wife to be involved in the addict’s treatment. They don’t tell you that it’s the biggest indication that he’s not going to change. Because if the wife’s not involved, they don’t get paid. So the whole thing is just a big racket.

If you’ve been listening at this point, you’re probably thinking, is there no hope for my marriage? And I understand. Because I felt the same way. I don’t know of any woman who hasn’t tried to go to intensive couple therapy or get their husband addiction therapy. It’s totally okay to be like, I’m going to try addiction therapy or maybe like an abuse cessation program. That’s what I did. And most of the women who come to BTR have tried that.

In fact, you maybe have already tried going to therapy or a marriage intensive. And you’re thinking you just need to find the right therapist or the right program.

Anne: Is my husband addicted? Here’s a thought. If you’re thinking that you just haven’t found the right program yet for your husband. The Living Free Workshop is a lot less expensive than years and years of couple therapy or addiction treatment. The Living Free Workshop is extremely affordable. So just go with me here for just a second.

What if you enrolled in The Living Free Workshop first, before you try the next therapist or the next program or even the next, like, abuse ceasation coach. The total runtime for the living free workshop is only two hours and 20 minutes. And the workbook is incredible, but you don’t even have to do the workbook. You can just watch the videos.

The longest video is six minutes and the shortest one is only 28 seconds. The average video is about three minutes long. I’ve made them all really short. So that you could process the information. The idea is just watch the whole thing. Again, the runtime is only two hours and 20 minutes. Then as you find the next therapist or program for your husband. At least you’ll be educated about this type of abuse and how to protect yourself.

And if your husband has an abusive character. And if a couple therapy isn’t going to work, you’ll be able to recognize that very quickly. So that knowledge will save you tons of money and tons of time. And if he doesn’t have an abusive character, and therapy will help. You’ll see that clearly too.

Anne: Is my husband addicted? The Living Free Workshop just gives you the skills to be able to see what is happening. Because I don’t want any woman in the world to be abused, ever. And if it is abuse, it’s imperative that you have the information you need to protect yourself.

So those are the three reasons why exploitative material is abusive. Number one, because it fuels trafficking. Number two, because it’s abusive to spouses and number three, because it’s abusive to the relationship.

I can’t tell you how many women I’ve talked to over the years, thousands. Who told me that once they got this information. Once they understood from The Living Free Workshop how to determine if he really had an abusive character. Once they knew the emotional safety strategies, how everything changed in their life for the better.

They were finally able to get some traction and protect themselves. And that’s my hope for you too. To learn more, click this link.

Healing emotional wounds in relationships, especially from a toxic marriage, is vital to our emotional health. Here’s how to find the right support. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of abuse that cause emotional wounds, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Understanding emotional abuse is the first step to getting help and staying safe. Before you go to any helping professional, it’s important to be educated about emotional and psychological abuse. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop helps women identify exactly what is causing the emotional wounds. Once you know what the true cause is, you’ll be ready to find the right support to heal.

If you discover the emotional wounds are from your husband’s abuse, the next step is to get the support to heal. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today.

Here are some examples of when support isn’t emotionally safe enough to help heal your wounds:

If you haven’t found the right support yet, know that we’re here for you. Listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to hear women’s share what resources helped them define what really caused the emotional wounds.

Anne: Today I’ll interview a woman who was victimized by a helping professional. We’re gonna call her Esther. Before we get to her story, I’m going to talk about healing emotional wounds from relationships. Step one is recognizing what caused the emotional wounds. If you don’t know what caused it, it’s hard to get the right kind of help.

Healing emotional wounds takes the right kind of help. If you go to a professional or therapist, and they give equal value to his abusive narrative or his lies and the truth. That’s not safe. You can’t heal the emotional wounds if they’re still occurring, especially if they’re coming from a helping professional.

As Esther shares her story, you’ll see that she correctly identifies what happened to her in her marriage. Then she’s gonna talk about the emotional wounds she received when she went for help. And it wasn’t a safe situation, welcome Esther. I’m so honored that you’d share your story. Will you go ahead and start?

Esther: Hi, thank you for having me. So I was married and had a lot of kids. I was a homeschooling mom. And I went online looking for answers. I took some quiz. I think it was a domestic violence recovery organization in the UK. At the end, it said you are being abused, you are being mistreated. And it was the first time those words or thoughts came into my mind. I just never saw that. I always thought, oh, he has ADHD, or depression, or it’s his culture.

Esther: And the fact that I might be intentionally harmed, controlled, and manipulated was a shocking, painful realization. So, I went straight away into the helper mode, okay, what can we do, what can he do, what can I do? And, I went into, support for myself, for DV victims, through my county.

I put my kids in counseling, and I asked my husband to please go to abuser counseling. Because I didn’t understand what a deep entrenched issue it was. I thought it was like a mistake or something that could be unlearned. I wasn’t focused on the deep emotional wounds that were occurring at the same time. And I was thinking, well, he’ll just go to a class and realize that this is bad, and we’ll just move on. I just saw it as, okay, let’s fix this.

I said, you have to go to a abuser intervention program, you have to do this, or my thought was separation. Divorce wasn’t part of my view as a Christian at that time. I’ve since changed my view. I don’t believe God wants abuse. But at that time, I gave him a list of things to do. They were supposedly proofs that he was changing. It included having a mentor, going to therapy, and going to an abuser program.

He went to two abuser groups. He would apologize a lot. And I’d get all these words and flowers. And he just lied to the therapists. He’d manipulate therapists. And that was disturbing, because he used them against me.

Anne: Were you aware of any pornography use, cheating, infidelity, or anything like that?

Esther: His views of women were warped, very misogynist, using me as an object.

Esther: I used to put religious labels on this and make it a holy thing. But as I started to get more and more free, I recognized that his view of women was a big part of the mistreatment of me, the emotional wounds were so deep. And unfortunately, that would cause harm to my daughters. That showed me that this was a lot bigger than me. I remember looking at his computer I was like, who is this man really?

There were secrets in his life, because he’d hide money from me in a weird way. I homeschooled four kids, and one of them has an autism diagnosis. So that took all my time. And I didn’t really have time to notice or pay attention to myself. I was all about the kids. I was all about trying to teach my son well. When I recognized, I’m an abused woman, I pivoted in my mind, like, how did this happen? How did I end up here?

I had a million questions, so I just started reading every book I could. What is abuse? How do I recognize it? What about me made me vulnerable? How do I know he’s changing? So I was just a sponge reading every book I could find. God opened my eyes and I started to see he could stop. It was possible, but he wasn’t. And because of that, we did get divorced, and I started running for personal healing.

Anne: Were you partially running toward healing because you were still experiencing abuse?

Esther: Oh, that’s an excellent question. I was experiencing post separation abuse. I was still trying to find help.

Esther: I went to a parent coordinator, told him everything. It was very traumatizing, because he’d asked me these personal questions. Well, when you did this, how did you feel? When you did this, how did you feel? And I would just be bringing up all these emotionally abusive episodes that resulted in deep emotional wounds, crying, and my ex had no empathy whatsoever. And hoping for help.

He just sat there like a stone while I’m crying. And when my ex went to the bathroom, the parent counselor said, I know what’s going on with you. I’ve seen it before. I just want you to know, even if you win, he will make you lose. And I’m like, what? He’s like, yeah, so if you get what you believe is owed to you in court, this guy’s going to come behind you in a covert way and take revenge.

And that ended up being true. When I was winning in court, he went after one of my kids in a vicious way. And so I’m trying to get him in home therapy and advocate for him at his school. Meanwhile, he’s just telling lies about me. And I started to wonder, like is he having a psychotic break? Is he actually perceiving reality wrongly? Or is he just lying? Why would he do that? Yeah, so the post divorce time was awful.

Anne: I’m guessing people are treating you as if you just need to heal. Rather than recognizing that you can’t even begin to heal because you’re still being abused post divorce. So when women talk to other people and they say well, didn’t you divorce him a year ago? Don’t you just need to move on?

Anne: They don’t realize that the abuse you’re experiencing is still real time, like it happened today or yesterday. It’s not something that’s in the past. So many women talk about their PTSD, and I’m like, it’s just TSD. Because it’s not post, it’s current. It’s happening now. You can’t heal from these deep emotional wounds while still experiencing harm.

Esther: That’s right. A big question on my heart was, why did he do this? I loved him, I had children with him, why would he treat me this way? And part of that understanding was to help me navigate that extremely difficult post separation period. I read this book by a famous author. Like, oh wow, look at this, look at that. And I remember being very impressed and motivated by the book.

Certain ideas in the book were very empowering for me. Because of that, I would quote it to my friends. A lot of us didn’t really have a correct understanding of intentional control or coercive control. When a person intentionally controls another person. By controlling their emotions, information, and I guess the main idea in the book is that it is intentional. So the book felt empowering. Like, this man is choosing to do this to avoid chores and helping with the children.

He’s doing it to avoid being equal to me. He’s doing it to gain an advantage over me. And it seemed to answer certain questions I had in my heart, because my ex was covert. In certain ways, I mean, I see it pretty clearly now, but it was so covert.

Esther: I had to constantly return to he’s not wanting an equal relationship, he’s wanting power over me. He’s willing to wound me to have that. And I had to continue to go back to it to survive emotionally and help my kids survive. What happened next is, I went to the famous author’s website and found that he offered a retreat for women, leaving abusive relationships. So that they were post abuse. And I thought it might be a good thing for me.

So I got someone to watch for my children. Got time off work. I went to the retreat. It was held in a beautiful location. It was green. I went, with a very open heart. Ready to be vulnerable. I was looking forward to a place where I could be very open about what I’d gone through in the marriage. I think many moms who are survivors who have to go to work. We are not really letting people know what we’ve gone through. I definitely didn’t talk about it that much.

I was just functioning and trying to get things done and paying the bills. So, I was looking forward to being in a place where I could talk about what had happened and not be judged. And receive healing, wisdom, and validation from other women. I remember when he first walked in the door, he looked at me, he made eye contact, and I noticed him noticing me. And it was like longer than just a normal, hi, how are you? I noticed that I was sort of on his radar.

Esther: And I was flattered, I was excited. So I’d only been divorced one year, but I was pregnant. Right after my divorce, it wasn’t wise, but I love my baby. He’s amazing. I’m so thankful for him. So I’m going into this retreat to heal from these emotional wounds. They had sent an email. If you have a gift for the group, why won’t you come and perform for us and share it? And I was a certified Zumba instructor. So, I was like, I’m sure I can lead Zumba for you guys.

And I also offered to help with karaoke, because I used to sing at different churches. And I did that. Like, yay, let’s do this.

Anne: The idea of being seen, your talent’s being seen and appreciated. We don’t feel seen or appreciated in our abusive marriages, so of course you’d be excited about that.

Esther: You’re right, yeah, that’s so true. I lost my identity in that marriage. The things that I loved, I sacrificed everything, and when I was divorced, I started regaining my personality. I started remembering, oh, I love to sing. I can sing. Oh, I like to go to the gym. I can go to the gym. My ex didn’t like me going to the gym. So, it was always a stressful thing to go to the gym. I’d be stressed to leave the kids at home.

He’d make negative or mocking comments about the gym. So, it was one of the many things I let go of when I was married. Just these aspects of my personality. I’d start to gain them back one at a time. It was amazing. And going to that retreat was supposed to be part of that journey.

Esther: Unfortunately, it took a negative turn. Not immediately, but during that retreat, the famous author was giving me attention. I didn’t think anything unusual of it, because I’m friendly, extroverted, like talking to people, and I like to be an A student. Sort of like, here’s the teacher, let me heal emotional wounds. So I was all in, and he’s like, Oh, do you guys have any questions?

And one of my questions was, what advice would you give for a future writer? And he said, well, let’s meet in the morning and talk about it. So he had a writer’s group in the morning, based on that question I had. And he was talking to me a lot. I don’t know if my radar was not recognizing that was unusual, but I liked it. You know, I’m getting all this attention from this famous guy.

There was one strange part where we were standing in this circle facing one direction, giving the person in front of us a back rub. Then you turn to the other side and give the other person a back rub. I remember thinking that was strange, because so many of us were survivors of intimate abuse. And we definitely didn’t want people touching us. I remember thinking, ew, I don’t know if I like this, this feels weird. It wasn’t that cool.

Esther: Following the retreat, the famous guy and I were emailing. And then we ended up talking on the phone, we ended up chatting it up a bit. It starts to feel kind of datey. I start to gain the vibe he’s interested. And then he decides to visit me in my town, and asked me if he could stay at my house with my kids. Which I thought was super strange. I’m like, I’ve got kids here. No way. So I told him there are many hotels near my house, so he stayed at a hotel.

After these weeks of flirty emailing and phone calls, we meet early in the morning on our first date. And we’re together the whole day. We’re holding hands. We’re kissing. It’s very romantic. He seemed great. However, as the day went on, when we were talking in different places. I remember noticing that something was off in how he was acting.

I noticed there were two voices, there was like the professional guy, that was like, oh, I’m so sweet and I’m so empathetic to you. Then there was another voice, and when that second voice came out, I started getting fear in my stomach. It was like an internal alarm. Just feminine intuition, he didn’t do anything violent, part of my mind is panicking. Like, who am I here with?

Then the other part was like, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m imagining it. Later on, we were in his hotel room. We started to get more physical. He went faster than I wanted. He did more than I wanted him to do, and I asked him to stop.

Esther: He did stop. I remember him lying on his back, looking up at the wall with this, like, cold face. Kind of pissed off, like angry. I didn’t know he’d be furious about that. When I look back, I’m like, oh, he probably just came for sex and was probably irritated when it didn’t happen. The next morning, I made him, breakfast. He was just looking at me like, what is your problem? And, I don’t know if the word is scared, but I cannot wait till he’s gone. And then he finally left.

He said goodbye, smiled this like a fake smile at me, and then he turned and he was cold as ice and irritated. I’ll never forget the way his face changed. It was shocking. I felt this pain throughout my body. Like, in my brain. My thoughts were not connecting. I was ruminating about the situation.

It just kept going around and around in circles like how the heck could that man be this? When he’s writing these books. Who is he even? He’s acting this way with someone healing from emotional wounds in relationships?

Anne: All women resist abuse, and that’s something people don’t understand. It gets turned into victim blaming, rather than realizing that any woman who’s been victimized will want to piece her dignity back together. Sometimes confronting an abuser is a way that we feel like we might piece our dignity back together. Can you talk about that?

Esther: I didn’t immediately cut off communication, because I didn’t want it to be true. It’s like, no, this could not be possible. I guess I was in disbelief.

Esther: I didn’t want people to read a book by this guy and then go to his retreats, and he’s a jerk. It was horrible. I was like, can that actually be true? You know, like I wanted my world to make more sense. I wanted the guy from the book back.

Anne: Because you felt so validated in his books. Does it invalidate all these things you learned? And maybe it’s your fault, like your husband said? So you experience additional abuse while healing emotional wounds from your past relationship.

Esther: Yes, that’s exactly it. Does it make his books wrong? For a long time, I wanted it to be my fault. Because that was better than knowing that this guy with this great book everyone loves is fake. I’d rather, something was wrong with me. You know, I didn’t want to discover what I discovered. Even when it was over with him and me, and I processed it. I was like, that was weird that he dated me after I was at the retreat when he’s basically a counselor.

You know, not someone who charges for a retreat. He knows what power is. He understands power differentials. And he knows, he knows that’s not right. It feels so yucky. Like, why do I have so much trauma from this? Like, why is my brain getting numb? It doesn’t feel like, oh, I went on a date and it was a bad date. It feels more violating.

I decided to research and try to find out if there were more victims, I met some of those people, and I found out that I was not alone. If you really want to test out, if a man is abusive, tell him no.

Anne: Yeah, you told him no and you saw what happened, and then you had it confirmed by these other victims who had experiences with him. I’m so glad you got that validation from those other women. I want to pause right here and talk about one section of that book at the end. It says something like, to change these guys, everyone would need to confront them. You know, the therapist, their church leader, the police, like everybody in the community.

We’re all desperate for our abuser to change, when healing from emotional wounds in relationships. So that we can keep our family together. I mean, I’ve interviewed over 300 abuse victims, long form interviews like this one, hour long interviews. So what victims take from his writing is the impression that even if it’s a long shot. I’m going to see if I can get the therapist, clergy, police, and his mother and everyone to confront him. And then maybe he’ll see the light, maybe that will save my marriage.

I tried that, I think so many women have, and it didn’t work. The court didn’t hold my ex accountable. In fact, when I tried to reduce his custody for abusing my kids, the court gave him more custody. And I sought God’s help to discover what would free me from my ex’s abuse, and through that, I discovered these great strategies. that I put in the Living Free Workshop. I had to do it like that, because it’s not like anything anybody has ever heard before. And I had to set it up the right way.

Anne: So The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop helps women understand who they are, and then how to strategically deal with them. And helps them get to emotional and psychological safety, when healing from these emotional wounds from marriage. However, that looks for you. And then observe from a safe distance. Because many of us have been manipulated to be detached from our intuition. Through the Living Free Workshop, through everything I do here at BTR.

My hope is to give women the confidence to reconnect with their gut, and you did that. On that date with him, your intuition was warning you, and you listened. Even if you didn’t want it to be true, you took at least a mental step back and started observing. That will always lead victims to the truth.

Esther: That’s so true. Wow, that’s amazing. Yeah, because I confronted him. Can’t you at least admit, you shouldn’t be dating the women you teach about abuse? It did not go well. He was gaslighting. I left that 30 minute conversation feeling completely confused. I was like, that was not wise. Which is interesting that he would actually give advice to confront people.

Anne: Because they actually like confrontation. The Living Free strategies came to me over years of all these interviews, but also my own experience. And one of the things I saw over and over again was in custody cases. Where the women had a lot of proof of their abuse. Even then, the abusers walk into court, super excited and happy. Court really stresses victims out. I mean, we think it’s miserable and super stressful. This type of abuser likes the confrontation that the court affords them.

Esther: That’s true. They like to fight.

Anne: And so if they can get hold of something, some emotion, something we want from them. It could be an apology, it could be that they stop doing what they’re doing, anything. The only thing they see is a way to manipulate us. That’s it. That’s why observing from a safe distance is safer for victims, rather than trying to get him to do something. Whether that be an abusive husband, ex-husband, therapist or counselor.

Esther: Absolutely.

Anne: Well, Esther, thank you so much for sharing your story. I know it’s been so traumatic. I think it’s important to hear these stories, so women know what can happen when they go for help. And how to recognize the right kind of help. Because it’s impossible heal from emotional wounds if we’re still receiving emotional wounds. So thank you so much for sharing your story today.