When a woman finds out her husband has been lying, one question she usually asks is, “Is my husband addicted to…” Here’s what you really need to know.

Before reading on, did you know that the real issue may be emotional abuse? To test this theory, if your husband uses p***graphy, take this free emotional abuse quiz. See if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse.

If you’ve just discovered your husband has been lying to you and he claims struggling with addiction, but it doesn’t feel right—trust your gut. The truth might not be about addiction at all. Often, the real issue is emotional and psychological abuse.

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we help women recognize the patterns of invisible abuse that hide behind lies. Here’s how to tell if your husband’s behavior is less about addiction and more about control and manipulation.

Addiction might seem like a reasonable explanation for your husband’s lies, but if your husband’s actions hurt your peace and confidence, it’s important to only focus on how they affect you. This shift will change everything.

If your husband repeatedly chooses behaviors that hurt you, it’s more than a personal struggle. It’s abuse.

If your husband says he’s lying because he’s an addict, ask yourself this question—does he take responsibility for the pain he’s caused? Or does he make excuses, shift blame, or manipulate you into feeling sorry for him?

Addiction doesn’t justify:

These actions aren’t slips from an addict—they’re tactics abusers use to maintain control.

One common lie many women hear is that exploitative materials use is just a private problem or a personal addiction. But here’s the reality:

If your husband’s actions have harmed you, the best step is to learn how to protect yourself from further harm. Here’s where to start:

Abusive online content is accepted, encouraged, and normalized in our society. While its effects are denied, minimized, and even justified.

When men choose to use exploitative content, they exploit and abuse women – many of whom are underage. Violence against women is common in this type of material.

Men literally have a response to the video proof of women and children brutalized and raped. How could that not be abusive?

Many so-called addicts will rally against the truth that this content is abusive. They claim that “ethical p****graphy” empowers women.

However, this fallacy is both dangerous and offensive. “Ethical” is the ultimate oxymoron. There is no healthy way to view something created through coercive, exploitative tactics.

When men consume this type of material, they are, by default, abusing their wife because:

As men consume this type of abuse, they’re being conditioned to coerce and abuse women and underage girls. We understand the depth of horror and pain women experience when betrayed.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group offers victims a safe place to process trauma, share hard feelings, and ask questions. Attend a session today.

Anne: It’s just me today. If you just found out about your husband’s lies. And you’re wondering is my husband addicted to whatever he just lied about? Here’s what you need to know. If you caught your husband lying. And then your husband said, I’m addicted to … And he claims he’s struggling with addiction. The truth might not be about addiction. Often the real issue is emotional and psychological abuse. So here’s what you need to know about addiction in marriage.

Addiction might seem like a reasonable explanation for your husband’s lies. But if your husband’s actions hurt your peace and confidence, it’s important to focus only on how they affect you, and this shift will change everything. Because if your husband repeatedly chooses behaviors that hurt you, this is about more than just his “personal struggle.” Lies aren’t addiction. Lies are emotional and psychological abuse.

So, if your husband is lying and his excuse is that he’s an addict, ask yourself this question. Is he taking responsibility for the pain he causes? Or does he make excuses, shift blame, or manipulate you to feel sorry for him?

Because addiction doesn’t justify lying about his whereabouts. Or that he plays the victim, so you feel sorry for him. He’s actually harming you. It doesn’t justify hiding money, denying conversations, or gaslighting when you ask questions. It doesn’t justify psychological abuse in telling you that you’re too sensitive or blowing something out of proportion, when what he’s done is serious.

Anne: These actions aren’t slips from an addict, they’re tactics abusers use to maintain control. You may ask, is my husband addicted? So let’s talk specifically about addiction and why exploitative material is an abuse issue. It’s not so much that I think talking about it as an abuse issue is fun, because everything about abuse is miserable. But educating women about this type of abuse is my absolute favorite thing to do. I have a master’s degree in education. I’m an abuse educator.

And because I talk about abuse all day long, I’ve developed a dark sense of humor. So I appreciate your patience. When it comes to abuse, it’s not a “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” situation. It’s what doesn’t kill you, really harms you, and limits your ability to function and feel joy for a long time. It’s miserable to learn why it is abusive from experience. And extremely difficult to learn how to protect yourself from this type of abuse.

Most people don’t give victims of this type of abuse, the correct information. So that’s my intent today. I don’t want any woman to experience this type of abuse, not know what it is, and not know how to protect yourself. That’s why I’m doing this episode today.

So exploitative materials use is a form of abuse. And there are multiple reasons why it’s abuse. I’m going to work from the outside in as we go over these reasons.

Anne: So reason number one: it fuels trafficking, and most exploitative media is video evidence of a victim’s coercion or assault. The industry says women are happy being abused. In fact, they’ve “consented” to it. But they are coerced. The money is the coercion. There is no woman wants to be filmed being violently attacked. Because that’s what most of it is today.

I’m a feminist. There are some feminists who say this somehow empowers women, and I absolutely disagree. Women have contracted diseases. The toxic “work” environment breaks them emotionally. Anyone who insists that it empowers women is not operating from a trauma-informed perspective. On the type of psychological grooming, emotional manipulation, and verbal manipulation that women encounter in the industry.

Is my husband addicted? There’s a general naivety among the mass consumers of exploitative media about how things work. Talking with the amazing people at the national center on exploitation. I’ve learned over the years. Statistics show if you watched 30 minutes of it. You are guaranteed to see someone who is there against their will. So even if somebody thinks they’re watching “ethical or free trade material.” There are a ton of euphemisms out there.

That’s not true. Women entrapped in this type of slavery are considered products. Producers use and sell their bodies as products. So if somebody views it, they’re getting pleasure from someone else’s abuse. There’s no healthy way to do that.

Anne: Is my husband addicted? The second reason why it is an abuse issue is that my husband’s use is abusive to me. Use is directly tied to loss of intimacy, reduced empathy, and addictive behaviors. The effect of it on his brain, emotions, and empathy is a net negative. My husband’s use didn’t, and no man’s use makes him more compassionate, more kind, or more capable of connecting with other people. Especially, not me as his wife.

The use of exploitative material is an act outside of marriage. Most men don’t just use. They also lie, deceive, manipulate and gaslight their wives to hide their use. So their wife doesn’t know how much they’re using. It takes time to use it. It takes 15 minutes, a half hour, an hour, two hours. However long it takes them to masturbate. That is how long it takes.

So this is time they are taking away from their job, childcare, housework, and reducing their wife’s mental load. I mean, they’re spending time thinking about how can I get privacy to use? They’re not thinking, how can I help my wife? What are the kids doing today? How can I help with carpool?

In fact, he thinks it’s my wife’s job to do all the childcare, housework and everything. So if she asks me questions about what I’m doing, or expects anything from me, like how dare she! It’s my right to have time to view these videos of women abused and masturbate.

There’s some good research you can find at The National Center on Exploitation about how use escalates over time.

Anne: So it takes more intense material for a man to get an erection, and for him to actually masturbate. So over time, he’s having to watch more of it, or watch more hardcore to do it. So what I believe should be between two people as an act of love and connection. For a user is spouting out sperm in front of a computer. There’s no need to pay attention to the other person’s feelings.

It’s all take. There’s absolutely no give. Is my husband addicted? And that’s the third reason why it is an abuse issue. It destroys sharing in marriage, and turns it into something that you experience alone. So it destroys the relationship. It’s not just abuse, because the people in the it are abused. And he’s not just abusive to us when he’s using it, because he has no empathy and care for us.

He uses all his mental energy to figure out how to lie to us. So he can be all by himself, using it. It’s also abusing the relationship, because it destroys the relationship. So that’s the third reason why it’s an abuse issue. He misuses or abuses the relationship. A marriage relationship is intended as a caring, loving, equally respectful relationship. Where people are relating out of care. But a user doesn’t operate from that perspective.

Anne: Is my husband addicted? He operates as if it’s a transactionship. So, for example, he just needs to say the right words to get the result he wants. So if he says, oh, you look so beautiful today. I love you so much. You’re amazing. That makes it much easier for him to follow up with. I’m so grateful that you’re so supportive of my job. I’m so sorry. I have to work late tonight. I’m going to be in the office. I’m going to lock the doors. So the kids don’t bother me, but just know that I care about you and I’m doing all this for our family.

And then goes in his office, locks the door and he’s not actually working. He’s just using in there. He’s abusing the relationship. Because he sees it as a series of transactions and uses deceit to make those transactions.

I think that using exploitative material is a form of adultery. This is how infidelity destroys the relationship. The solution to this abuse of the relationship isn’t to say, If we watch it together, then it’s not abusing the relationship because we’re doing it together. No, doing something unhealthy together is not going to make the relationship healthy.

Anne: Is my husband addicted? The CSAT therapist would like to call this addiction rather than abuse. And I disagree, it’s abuse. It should be called abuse. I think if they try to treat it, they should be treating abuse. And the only thing that any addiction recovery professional should say to a victim of this type of abuse is you’re a victim of abuse. Focus on protecting yourself. That’s it.

Whether it’s addictive or not. This is a choice your husband is making day in and day out about what he thinks about, about how he spends his time. And if he’s been doing this for years, This is who he has become. The lying, the deception, the manipulation, all of this has become his character. And that’s what people mean when they say he’s abusive. Abuse is a character problem.

It’s important to know that abuse is a character problem, because a lot of emotional and psychological abuse will feel good to the victim. That type of manipulation is going to cause us as victims to feel loved. and cared for. Even though it’s manipulation. This is sometimes called grooming or hoovering. So if our husband has this type of abusive character, The only reason he chooses to do things that feel good for us is to achieve a goal. And his goal is often to either hide the truth or exploit us somehow.

So it’s dangerous, no matter what, it’s dangerous, if he’s manipulating through manipulative kindness, it’s just more obvious if he’s manipulating through threats, verbal abuse, or overt forms of emotional and psychological abuse. and verbal abuse.

Anne: The addiction, industrial complex does not want to correctly identify this. Is my husband addicted? They won’t say he has an abusive character. They’re going to say it’s an addiction and the addiction is a disease and the logical outcome of thinking that our husband has a disease. is for us as victims to have compassion for our abuser. When the thing we need to do is protect ourselves.

It’s not like he’s a cancer patient. And he has no choice. He does have choices. Men who use this material are not helpless. The bigger question is can they think about women as people. Can they accept that women are human and that we are equal to them. That we were not created for their use or for them to exploit. But that our feelings matter just as much as theirs.

If he wants to have it and we don’t want to have it. Those are equal. Because we are equal. And so all things being equal. He’s an adult. He has choices. If we can put time, effort, and thought into how to have a better marriage. So can he. If we can figure this out, he can figure this out. He knows how to act appropriately, because he is kind in public. He knows how to be kind. And he chooses to be kind as a manipulation tactic.

He doesn’t have an integrity disorder. He just doesn’t have integrity. For so long, I was in this addiction recovery space with my ex-husband. I was not seeing him as abusive. I was viewing everything he did through that lens of addiction.

Anne: And that’s exactly why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to help you SEE what is actually happening. The way that I talk about abuse, is very mainstream. If you went to a domestic violence shelter and explained the manipulation, lies, deception, and disrespect that you’re experiencing. Is my husband addicted? Those domestic abuse experts at the domestic violence shelter would confirm that you’re experiencing abuse. I haven’t invented this out of nowhere.

These are very typical classic abusive behaviors. It’s just that the addiction industrial complex doesn’t want you to know that. And so they don’t bring that up. And I think the main reason is that they know if it’s abuse, a woman should just focus on protecting herself. If a addiction professional is an abuse expert. They know that he’s only going to treatment as a way to continue manipulating and exploiting his wife.

That he doesn’t need treatment, to be honest at any time. He could say, hey, it was a choice and I chose to use because it was way easier than trying to have a relationship. And I just want to ejaculate. All I care about is the orgasm and it’s way easier with it. It doesn’t expect anything. Instead in addiction treatment. He’ll come up with all these excuses and reasons. For why he’s compelled.

And you end up paying thousands and thousands of dollars for him to string you along and continue to exploit you and manipulate you. Because the addiction treatment industry doesn’t give victims of this type of abuse in any way to protect ourselves.

Anne: And they know that if she realizes this, he’ll have no reason to go anymore. And then they’ll lose a client. And then won’t get paid as much. Is my husband addicted? If he hasn’t found the treatment program all by himself, scheduled his own appointments, and done everything without you as a victim mentioning anything to him. Meaning, if you’re the one that found the therapist, if you schedule the appointments, if you’re managing his treatment in any way.That is one of the biggest indications. That he does not intend to change.

Because if he did intend to change, he would have done all of that on his own. If you’re capable of doing it, he’s capable of doing it. Sex addiction professionals know this. They always want the wife to be involved in the addict’s treatment. They don’t tell you that it’s the biggest indication that he’s not going to change. Because if the wife’s not involved, they don’t get paid. So the whole thing is just a big racket.

If you’ve been listening at this point, you’re probably thinking, is there no hope for my marriage? And I understand. Because I felt the same way. I don’t know of any woman who hasn’t tried to go to intensive couple therapy or get their husband addiction therapy. It’s totally okay to be like, I’m going to try addiction therapy or maybe like an abuse cessation program. That’s what I did. And most of the women who come to BTR have tried that.

In fact, you maybe have already tried going to therapy or a marriage intensive. And you’re thinking you just need to find the right therapist or the right program.

Anne: Is my husband addicted? Here’s a thought. If you’re thinking that you just haven’t found the right program yet for your husband. The Living Free Workshop is a lot less expensive than years and years of couple therapy or addiction treatment. The Living Free Workshop is extremely affordable. So just go with me here for just a second.

What if you enrolled in The Living Free Workshop first, before you try the next therapist or the next program or even the next, like, abuse ceasation coach. The total runtime for the living free workshop is only two hours and 20 minutes. And the workbook is incredible, but you don’t even have to do the workbook. You can just watch the videos.

The longest video is six minutes and the shortest one is only 28 seconds. The average video is about three minutes long. I’ve made them all really short. So that you could process the information. The idea is just watch the whole thing. Again, the runtime is only two hours and 20 minutes. Then as you find the next therapist or program for your husband. At least you’ll be educated about this type of abuse and how to protect yourself.

And if your husband has an abusive character. And if a couple therapy isn’t going to work, you’ll be able to recognize that very quickly. So that knowledge will save you tons of money and tons of time. And if he doesn’t have an abusive character, and therapy will help. You’ll see that clearly too.

Anne: Is my husband addicted? The Living Free Workshop just gives you the skills to be able to see what is happening. Because I don’t want any woman in the world to be abused, ever. And if it is abuse, it’s imperative that you have the information you need to protect yourself.

So those are the three reasons why exploitative material is abusive. Number one, because it fuels trafficking. Number two, because it’s abusive to spouses and number three, because it’s abusive to the relationship.

I can’t tell you how many women I’ve talked to over the years, thousands. Who told me that once they got this information. Once they understood from The Living Free Workshop how to determine if he really had an abusive character. Once they knew the emotional safety strategies, how everything changed in their life for the better.

They were finally able to get some traction and protect themselves. And that’s my hope for you too. To learn more, click this link.

Healing emotional wounds in relationships, especially from a toxic marriage, is vital to our emotional health. Here’s how to find the right support. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of abuse that cause emotional wounds, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Understanding emotional abuse is the first step to getting help and staying safe. Before you go to any helping professional, it’s important to be educated about emotional and psychological abuse. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women identify exactly what is causing the emotional wounds. Once you know what the true cause is, you’ll be ready to find the right support to heal.

If you discover the emotional wounds are from your husband’s abuse, the next step is to get the support to heal. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today.

Here are some examples of when support isn’t emotionally safe enough to help heal your wounds:

If you haven’t found the right support yet, know that we’re here for you. Listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to hear women’s share what resources helped them define what really caused the emotional wounds.

Anne: Today I’ll interview a woman who was victimized by a helping professional. We’re gonna call her Esther. Before we get to her story, I’m going to talk about healing emotional wounds from relationships. Step one is recognizing what caused the emotional wounds. If you don’t know what caused it, it’s hard to get the right kind of help. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women see exactly what’s going on.

And step two, healing emotional wounds takes the right kind of help. If you go to a professional or therapist, and they give equal value to his abusive narrative or his lies and the truth. That’s not safe. You can’t heal the emotional wounds if they’re still occurring, especially if they’re coming from a helping professional.

As Esther shares her story, you’ll see that she correctly identifies what happened to her in her marriage. Then she’s gonna talk about the emotional wounds she received when she went for help. And it wasn’t a safe situation, welcome Esther. I’m so honored that you’d share your story. Will you go ahead and start?

Esther: Hi, thank you for having me. So I was married and had a lot of kids. I was a homeschooling mom. And I went online looking for answers. I took some quiz. I think it was a domestic violence recovery organization in the UK. At the end, it said you are being abused, you are being mistreated. And it was the first time those words or thoughts came into my mind. I just never saw that. I always thought, oh, he has ADHD, or depression, or it’s his culture.

Esther: And the fact that I might be intentionally harmed, controlled, and manipulated was a shocking, painful realization. So, I went straight away into the helper mode, okay, what can we do, what can he do, what can I do? And, I went into, support for myself, for DV victims, through my county.

I put my kids in counseling, and I asked my husband to please go to abuser counseling. Because I didn’t understand what a deep entrenched issue it was. I thought it was like a mistake or something that could be unlearned. I wasn’t focused on the deep emotional wounds that were occurring at the same time. And I was thinking, well, he’ll just go to a class and realize that this is bad, and we’ll just move on. I just saw it as, okay, let’s fix this.

I said, you have to go to a abuser intervention program, you have to do this, or my thought was separation. Divorce wasn’t part of my view as a Christian at that time. I’ve since changed my view. I don’t believe God wants abuse. But at that time, I gave him a list of things to do. They were supposedly proofs that he was changing. It included having a mentor, going to therapy, and going to an abuser program.

He went to two abuser groups. He would apologize a lot. And I’d get all these words and flowers. And he just lied to the therapists. He’d manipulate therapists. And that was disturbing, because he used them against me.

Anne: Were you aware of any pornography use, cheating, infidelity, or anything like that?

Esther: His views of women were warped, very misogynist, using me as an object.

Esther: I used to put religious labels on this and make it a holy thing. But as I started to get more and more free, I recognized that his view of women was a big part of the mistreatment of me, the emotional wounds were so deep. And unfortunately, that would cause harm to my daughters. That showed me that this was a lot bigger than me. I remember looking at his computer I was like, who is this man really?

There were secrets in his life, because he’d hide money from me in a weird way. I homeschooled four kids, and one of them has an autism diagnosis. So that took all my time. And I didn’t really have time to notice or pay attention to myself. I was all about the kids. I was all about trying to teach my son well. When I recognized, I’m an abused woman, I pivoted in my mind, like, how did this happen? How did I end up here?

I had a million questions, so I just started reading every book I could. What is abuse? How do I recognize it? What about me made me vulnerable? How do I know he’s changing? So I was just a sponge reading every book I could find. God opened my eyes and I started to see he could stop. It was possible, but he wasn’t. And because of that, we did get divorced, and I started running for personal healing.

Anne: Were you partially running toward healing because you were still experiencing abuse?

Esther: Oh, that’s an excellent question. I was experiencing post separation abuse. I was still trying to find help.

Esther: I went to a parent coordinator, told him everything. It was very traumatizing, because he’d asked me these personal questions. Well, when you did this, how did you feel? When you did this, how did you feel? And I would just be bringing up all these emotionally abusive episodes that resulted in deep emotional wounds, crying, and my ex had no empathy whatsoever. And hoping for help.

He just sat there like a stone while I’m crying. And when my ex went to the bathroom, the parent counselor said, I know what’s going on with you. I’ve seen it before. I just want you to know, even if you win, he will make you lose. And I’m like, what? He’s like, yeah, so if you get what you believe is owed to you in court, this guy’s going to come behind you in a covert way and take revenge.

And that ended up being true. When I was winning in court, he went after one of my kids in a vicious way. And so I’m trying to get him in home therapy and advocate for him at his school. Meanwhile, he’s just telling lies about me. And I started to wonder, like is he having a psychotic break? Is he actually perceiving reality wrongly? Or is he just lying? Why would he do that? Yeah, so the post divorce time was awful.

Anne: I’m guessing people are treating you as if you just need to heal. Rather than recognizing that you can’t even begin to heal because you’re still being abused post divorce. So when women talk to other people and they say well, didn’t you divorce him a year ago? Don’t you just need to move on?

Anne: They don’t realize that the abuse you’re experiencing is still real time, like it happened today or yesterday. It’s not something that’s in the past. So many women talk about their PTSD, and I’m like, it’s just TSD. Because it’s not post, it’s current. It’s happening now. You can’t heal from these deep emotional wounds while still experiencing harm.

Esther: That’s right. A big question on my heart was, why did he do this? I loved him, I had children with him, why would he treat me this way? And part of that understanding was to help me navigate that extremely difficult post separation period. I read this book by a famous author. Like, oh wow, look at this, look at that. And I remember being very impressed and motivated by the book.

Certain ideas in the book were very empowering for me. Because of that, I would quote it to my friends. A lot of us didn’t really have a correct understanding of intentional control or coercive control. When a person intentionally controls another person. By controlling their emotions, information, and I guess the main idea in the book is that it is intentional. So the book felt empowering. Like, this man is choosing to do this to avoid chores and helping with the children.

He’s doing it to avoid being equal to me. He’s doing it to gain an advantage over me. And it seemed to answer certain questions I had in my heart, because my ex was covert. In certain ways, I mean, I see it pretty clearly now, but it was so covert.

Esther: I had to constantly return to he’s not wanting an equal relationship, he’s wanting power over me. He’s willing to wound me to have that. And I had to continue to go back to it to survive emotionally and help my kids survive. What happened next is, I went to the famous author’s website and found that he offered a retreat for women, leaving abusive relationships. So that they were post abuse. And I thought it might be a good thing for me.

So I got someone to watch for my children. Got time off work. I went to the retreat. It was held in a beautiful location. It was green. I went, with a very open heart. Ready to be vulnerable. I was looking forward to a place where I could be very open about what I’d gone through in the marriage. I think many moms who are survivors who have to go to work. We are not really letting people know what we’ve gone through. I definitely didn’t talk about it that much.

I was just functioning and trying to get things done and paying the bills. So, I was looking forward to being in a place where I could talk about what had happened and not be judged. And receive healing, wisdom, and validation from other women. I remember when he first walked in the door, he looked at me, he made eye contact, and I noticed him noticing me. And it was like longer than just a normal, hi, how are you? I noticed that I was sort of on his radar.

Esther: And I was flattered, I was excited. So I’d only been divorced one year, but I was pregnant. Right after my divorce, it wasn’t wise, but I love my baby. He’s amazing. I’m so thankful for him. So I’m going into this retreat to heal from these emotional wounds. They had sent an email. If you have a gift for the group, why won’t you come and perform for us and share it? And I was a certified Zumba instructor. So, I was like, I’m sure I can lead Zumba for you guys.

And I also offered to help with karaoke, because I used to sing at different churches. And I did that. Like, yay, let’s do this.

Anne: The idea of being seen, your talent’s being seen and appreciated. We don’t feel seen or appreciated in our abusive marriages, so of course you’d be excited about that.

Esther: You’re right, yeah, that’s so true. I lost my identity in that marriage. The things that I loved, I sacrificed everything, and when I was divorced, I started regaining my personality. I started remembering, oh, I love to sing. I can sing. Oh, I like to go to the gym. I can go to the gym. My ex didn’t like me going to the gym. So, it was always a stressful thing to go to the gym. I’d be stressed to leave the kids at home.

He’d make negative or mocking comments about the gym. So, it was one of the many things I let go of when I was married. Just these aspects of my personality. I’d start to gain them back one at a time. It was amazing. And going to that retreat was supposed to be part of that journey.

Esther: Unfortunately, it took a negative turn. Not immediately, but during that retreat, the famous author was giving me attention. I didn’t think anything unusual of it, because I’m friendly, extroverted, like talking to people, and I like to be an A student. Sort of like, here’s the teacher, let me heal emotional wounds. So I was all in, and he’s like, Oh, do you guys have any questions?

And one of my questions was, what advice would you give for a future writer? And he said, well, let’s meet in the morning and talk about it. So he had a writer’s group in the morning, based on that question I had. And he was talking to me a lot. I don’t know if my radar was not recognizing that was unusual, but I liked it. You know, I’m getting all this attention from this famous guy.

There was one strange part where we were standing in this circle facing one direction, giving the person in front of us a back rub. Then you turn to the other side and give the other person a back rub. I remember thinking that was strange, because so many of us were survivors of intimate abuse. And we definitely didn’t want people touching us. I remember thinking, ew, I don’t know if I like this, this feels weird. It wasn’t that cool.

Esther: Following the retreat, the famous guy and I were emailing. And then we ended up talking on the phone, we ended up chatting it up a bit. It starts to feel kind of datey. I start to gain the vibe he’s interested. And then he decides to visit me in my town, and asked me if he could stay at my house with my kids. Which I thought was super strange. I’m like, I’ve got kids here. No way. So I told him there are many hotels near my house, so he stayed at a hotel.

After these weeks of flirty emailing and phone calls, we meet early in the morning on our first date. And we’re together the whole day. We’re holding hands. We’re kissing. It’s very romantic. He seemed great. However, as the day went on, when we were talking in different places. I remember noticing that something was off in how he was acting.

I noticed there were two voices, there was like the professional guy, that was like, oh, I’m so sweet and I’m so empathetic to you. Then there was another voice, and when that second voice came out, I started getting fear in my stomach. It was like an internal alarm. Just feminine intuition, he didn’t do anything violent, part of my mind is panicking. Like, who am I here with?

Then the other part was like, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m imagining it. Later on, we were in his hotel room. We started to get more physical. He went faster than I wanted. He did more than I wanted him to do, and I asked him to stop.

Esther: He did stop. I remember him lying on his back, looking up at the wall with this, like, cold face. Kind of pissed off, like angry. I didn’t know he’d be furious about that. When I look back, I’m like, oh, he probably just came for sex and was probably irritated when it didn’t happen. The next morning, I made him, breakfast. He was just looking at me like, what is your problem? And, I don’t know if the word is scared, but I cannot wait till he’s gone. And then he finally left.

He said goodbye, smiled this like a fake smile at me, and then he turned and he was cold as ice and irritated. I’ll never forget the way his face changed. It was shocking. I felt this pain throughout my body. Like, in my brain. My thoughts were not connecting. I was ruminating about the situation.

It just kept going around and around in circles like how the heck could that man be this? When he’s writing these books. Who is he even? He’s acting this way with someone healing from emotional wounds in relationships?

Anne: All women resist abuse, and that’s something people don’t understand. It gets turned into victim blaming, rather than realizing that any woman who’s been victimized will want to piece her dignity back together. Sometimes confronting an abuser is a way that we feel like we might piece our dignity back together. Can you talk about that?

Esther: I didn’t immediately cut off communication, because I didn’t want it to be true. It’s like, no, this could not be possible. I guess I was in disbelief.

Esther: I didn’t want people to read a book by this guy and then go to his retreats, and he’s a jerk. It was horrible. I was like, can that actually be true? You know, like I wanted my world to make more sense. I wanted the guy from the book back.

Anne: Because you felt so validated in his books. Does it invalidate all these things you learned? And maybe it’s your fault, like your husband said? So you experience additional abuse while healing emotional wounds from your past relationship.

Esther: Yes, that’s exactly it. Does it make his books wrong? For a long time, I wanted it to be my fault. Because that was better than knowing that this guy with this great book everyone loves is fake. I’d rather, something was wrong with me. You know, I didn’t want to discover what I discovered. Even when it was over with him and me, and I processed it. I was like, that was weird that he dated me after I was at the retreat when he’s basically a counselor.

You know, not someone who charges for a retreat. He knows what power is. He understands power differentials. And he knows, he knows that’s not right. It feels so yucky. Like, why do I have so much trauma from this? Like, why is my brain getting numb? It doesn’t feel like, oh, I went on a date and it was a bad date. It feels more violating.

I decided to research and try to find out if there were more victims, I met some of those people, and I found out that I was not alone. If you really want to test out, if a man is abusive, tell him no.

Anne: Yeah, you told him no and you saw what happened, and then you had it confirmed by these other victims who had experiences with him. I’m so glad you got that validation from those other women. I want to pause right here and talk about one section of that book at the end. It says something like, to change these guys, everyone would need to confront them. You know, the therapist, their church leader, the police, like everybody in the community.

We’re all desperate for our abuser to change, when healing from emotional wounds in relationships. So that we can keep our family together. I mean, I’ve interviewed over 300 abuse victims, long form interviews like this one, hour long interviews. So what victims take from his writing is the impression that even if it’s a long shot. I’m going to see if I can get the therapist, clergy, police, and his mother and everyone to confront him. And then maybe he’ll see the light, maybe that will save my marriage.

I tried that, I think so many women have, and it didn’t work. The court didn’t hold my ex accountable. In fact, when I tried to reduce his custody for abusing my kids, the court gave him more custody. And I sought God’s help to discover what would free me from my ex’s abuse, and through that, I discovered these great strategies. that I put in the Living Free Workshop. I had to do it like that, because it’s not like anything anybody has ever heard before. And I had to set it up the right way.

Anne: So The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women understand who they are, and then how to strategically deal with them. And helps them get to emotional and psychological safety, when healing from these emotional wounds from marriage. However, that looks for you. And then observe from a safe distance. Because many of us have been manipulated to be detached from our intuition. Through the Living Free Workshop, through everything I do here at BTR.

My hope is to give women the confidence to reconnect with their gut, and you did that. On that date with him, your intuition was warning you, and you listened. Even if you didn’t want it to be true, you took at least a mental step back and started observing. That will always lead victims to the truth.

Esther: That’s so true. Wow, that’s amazing. Yeah, because I confronted him. Can’t you at least admit, you shouldn’t be dating the women you teach about abuse? It did not go well. He was gaslighting. I left that 30 minute conversation feeling completely confused. I was like, that was not wise. Which is interesting that he would actually give advice to confront people.

Anne: Because they actually like confrontation. The Living Free strategies came to me over years of all these interviews, but also my own experience. And one of the things I saw over and over again was in custody cases. Where the women had a lot of proof of their abuse. Even then, the abusers walk into court, super excited and happy. Court really stresses victims out. I mean, we think it’s miserable and super stressful. This type of abuser likes the confrontation that the court affords them.

Esther: That’s true. They like to fight.

Anne: And so if they can get hold of something, some emotion, something we want from them. It could be an apology, it could be that they stop doing what they’re doing, anything. The only thing they see is a way to manipulate us. That’s it. That’s why observing from a safe distance is safer for victims, rather than trying to get him to do something. Whether that be an abusive husband, ex-husband, therapist or counselor.

Esther: Absolutely.

Anne: Well, Esther, thank you so much for sharing your story. I know it’s been so traumatic. I think it’s important to hear these stories, so women know what can happen when they go for help. And how to recognize the right kind of help. Because it’s impossible heal from emotional wounds if we’re still receiving emotional wounds. So thank you so much for sharing your story today.

It is crucial for women to recognize the signs of clergy misconduct, as those who experience betrayal or emotional abuse often turn to their faith communities for solace and support. Here’s what you need to know.

If you relate to this, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Dave Gemmel, Associate Director of the NAD Ministerial Association, joins Anne Blythe, M.Ed. to discuss clergy misconduct. Congregants seek spiritual guidance, compassion, and leadership from clergy. When pastors, bishops, and other spiritual leaders use their authority to destroy a congregant’s trust or faith in God through misconduct, that sacred role is diminished, and victims may experience severe trauma, which often includes a crisis of faith.

Dave enumerates some of the ways that clergy can violate trust and commit misconduct:

As Dave explains, pastors have spiritual authority, which makes it impossible for an “asymmetrical relationship” between himself and a congregant. Because of the lack of “considered mutual consent,” a sexual relationship with a pastor or bishop is not an affair, but abuse. Women who have experienced this form of abuse may blame themselves, but abuse is never the victim’s fault.

When clergy take advantage of their position of power, congregants may feel disloyal or unworthy if they report misconduct. Furthermore, congregants, especially abused women, may not know they have betrayal trauma. Utilizing women’s intuition helps prevent clergy misconduct. Because women have adept intuitive abilities to decipher safe or unsafe individuals, Dave suggests all religious organizations implement a 50% policy.

This means that in search committees, boards, and other leadership committees that determine who is leading a congregation, women make up at least half of the group. When women discover betrayal and identify abuse in their relationships, they often seek support from clergy. Dave recommends that women and couples do not seek therapeutic counseling from clergy.

Instead, women suffering from the effects of betrayal and abuse can utilize professionals who are trained in trauma and abuse.

Trained coaches lead the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. If you are seeking validation, empowerment, knowledge, and support, join the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group today and find the community you deserve.

Anne: Today, I’m with Dave Gemmel. He’s an associate director of the NAD ministerial association. He received his doctorate of ministry with an emphasis on multicultural leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary in 1992. He began pastoring in the San Francisco bay area in 1978. Welcome Dave.

Pastor Dave: Thank you very much, Anne. It is a delight to be with you, and I love your mission. Betrayal Trauma Recovery aims to protect women from emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and coercion. We are on the same page.

Anne: Let’s just dive right in to talking about clergy misconduct. Many think it is only preying upon minors. Could you please define it?

Pastor Dave: Yeah, that’s a mouthful, isn’t it? Clergy misconduct, typically, we think of all the stories in the news, stories of the Catholic Church with pedophilia, abusing little boys in the church, and so that’s what comes to mind when we think of clergy misconduct, but the scope is actually a lot bigger than that. If I could just give a little preface here before we jump into it.

Clergy, many, if not most, have advanced education and have been carefully screened before endorsement by their congregations. Most are highly trained, behave with great integrity and professionalism. Having said all that, there is a segment of volunteers and professional clergy who violate sacred trust, and in doing so damage the reputation of all clergy.

That’s the segment that we’re going to zoom in on today. So what is clergy misconduct? It’s a betrayal of sacred trust, as I mentioned. And it can be on a continuum of abuse or gender directed behaviors by either a lay or clergy person with a ministerial relationship, whether they’re paid or unpaid.

Pastor Dave: Here are some of the things it can include. Abuse, adult sexual abuse, harassment, rape, sexual assault, sexualized verbal comments or visuals and unwelcome touch and advances. The use of inappropriate materials. Including pornography, stalking, sexual abuse of youth, or those without capacity or consent. Also misuse of the pastoral ministerial position, and sometimes criminal behaviors that are against the law in some nations, states, and communities.

So that’s an official definition of misconduct by clergy. That’s in the Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church, which is one of the best out there.

Anne: So in your definition, you said gender directed behaviors. Are you talking about misogyny?

Pastor Dave: Yeah, that absolutely is misogyny. And that is proclaiming that women are not as valuable as men. And men have the right to dictate women’s behavior.

Anne: Let’s talk about your contention that pastors can’t have affairs with church members. And why when people say, oh, he had an affair with a member of his congregation, that’s not a thing.

Pastor Dave: Sometimes when a spiritual leader had an inappropriate relationship with a member of the congregation, and we write it off as an affair, I don’t believe it’s an affair. Here’s why, the word affair implies mutual consent between two adults. But there’s an asymmetrical role between pastor and congregant. In other words, the pastor has spiritual authority, which does not put them on the same playing field. That’s why it’s asymmetrical.

So any intimate relationship between a pastor and a congregant, I believe, is clergy misconduct. and cannot be considered mutual consent.

Even if it’s not physical coercion, the clergy is the one in a position of spiritual and emotional power and must be held responsible for the abuse of power.

Pastor Dave: So, any relationship between a spiritual leader and a member is not having an affair. It is clergy misconduct.

Anne: Thank you for making that so clear. It’s the same type of thing, where can you have an affair with your therapist? And the answer is also no, because he’s in a position of power. His role is to treat you for a mental illness. I think that that would fall into the same category in terms of therapy or other professionals.

Pastor Dave: Absolutely, and a therapist should lose their license and be barred from practicing. It’s on a continuum, and the reality is there are some predators who’ve managed to become clergy. The biggest study was done, it’s from the Journal of Scientific Study of Religion, titled Prevalence of Clergy Advances Toward Adults in Their Congregations. It was a twofold study. Victims of clergy misconduct were studied from a wide range of religions.

They were asked to tell their stories of abuse. And in almost all these cases, the clergy offenders in a series of small acts broke down the natural defenses. And took advantage of a position of spiritual power to eventually make the relationship inappropriate. But what do we call that? That’s a predator. And somehow there are a few of these predators that have managed to get in among the ranks of spiritual leaders.

It’s so dangerous, and here’s why, because the victims, the families, and the congregation did not seem to notice it. Or they refuse to confront the clergy. So there’s this special fog in a congregation that people aren’t looking for that, and so they don’t see it. And it makes a nice cloaking place for these predators in the ministry.

Anne: Would you say this also applies to people in some type of religious authority, even if it’s just volunteer, when they’re not their congregants? So, for example, a neighbor who thinks, oh, this man is amazing because he’s a pastor. He might not be her pastor, but some religious title. In my church, we would call it a priesthood calling.

So even if they don’t belong to their same congregation, do you find that these types of predators use their titles for grooming others, not just people in their congregation?

Pastor Dave: You know, predators use whatever tools they can and if they can use a spiritual position they’ll do whatever they can to achieve their goal.

Anne: I think it’s an automatic way to gain people’s trust. So what steps can churches take in the prevention of clergy misconduct?

Pastor Dave: A few things. First of all, make sure that at least 50% of your search committee, policy committees, or boards, or however your church or synagogue is set up, 50% need to be women. And here’s why. I believe God created man and woman, and they complete humanity. If you just have one gender, you only get half of the picture. And so if there are only men on these committees, you’re half blind!

Many times women can pick up on things that men were clueless to. So it’s imperative that there is a 50% at least on all these committees. Does that sound wild to you? That’s my goal.

Anne: I think it sounds amazing. In my particular faith, that is not even an option right now.

Anne: I’m like, oh, that would be a miracle if a woman complained and said, Hey, this was creepy. So many men would just be like, Oh, he’s just a nice guy. Don’t worry about it. You’re overreacting. And so, having women make up 50% would make a huge difference, because men seem to dismiss women’s statements about factual things or their intuition that something isn’t quite right.

Pastor Dave: Because most of us men have not experienced unwanted advances. To us, it’s just completely off our radar. It’s something we can’t relate to. And many women have. So immediately they pick up on it. That’s why we need women in these decision-making positions.

Anne: I love that, I’m going to pray for that in my own faith.

Pastor Dave: When a congregation or group selects a spiritual leader, you gotta check references. You know, we do that in business, how much more important it is in spiritual life. Now, when I say check references, that’s not just checking the resume and making the cursory calls on the resume.

But it’s calling previous congregations and talking to people in previous congregations, others who have worked with them and dig and dig and dig. And if this person is a predator, things will pop up. It may not be obvious, but three or four phone calls and following some threads, it may be possible to uncover any clergy misconduct.

Anne: Let’s talk about how the position of clergy can be problematic for someone with an exploitative character.

Pastor Dave: This is the heart of our conversation right now.

Pastor Dave: This may sound radical, but let me say, don’t go to your pastor or bishop for counseling. That’s a no no. It’s dangerous to go to pastors or spiritual leaders for counseling. And here’s why. Formal training of pastors, and particularly lay leaders, does not equip them to engage in counseling. Counseling is full of supervised counseling that takes thousands of hours before you become certified. It takes certification by state and governing bodies.

Anne: So many victims go to clergy for spiritual counseling. What’s the difference between spiritual counseling and the counseling you’re talking about.

Pastor Dave: Yeah, that’s a good question. Spiritual counseling, I don’t think that’s appropriate. I think it’s much better in a support group to develop those spiritual skills and insights. As far as one-on-one counseling, I think that’s out of the question, whether spiritual or otherwise.

Anne: One thing I suggest is if you’re going into clergy to report your husband’s abuse, inappropriate content use or coercion. Or any type of abuse, emotional or psychological abuse.

Always take another woman with you who understands abuse. From our experience, you are at the greatest risk of him giving you bad advice. Or saying things like, well, just have more intercourse with him, or how many times do you have it? We get the craziest things clergy has said to victims of abuse. Are you making dinner? Are you praying? Stuff like that.

Pastor Dave: That’s a great suggestion, and that leads me to don’t meet with a pastor by yourself.

Anne: We’re on the same page, yay!

Pastor Dave: We are. This is not rocket science here. This is just a simple practical device that comes out of years and years of bad practice and seeing examples of clergy misconduct. So we need to turn it around and have a good practice to ensure there is no clergy misconduct. So here’s some suggestions. Don’t meet with the pastor by yourself. If you do, find places to meet people where others can observed you.

Alright, so I don’t know if the pastor has an office. If so, the office door should be open, there should be someone within eyesight of the office. I would suggest that if there’s no office, meet at a public place. Coffee shop, ice cream shop, if we’re in Salt Lake City. Most of all, choose a place where you feel safe. And if you want to bring a friend with you, that will increase safety awareness.

Anne: Let’s talk about that for a minute. So, many women will go to clergy to be absolved of their own sins. They’re embarrassed, they don’t want anyone else to know. What would you tell women in this scenario who are ashamed of their own behavior?

They want to repent. And they’re thinking, I don’t wanna tell my mom, so my mom can’t come in with me to speak to my bishop or pastor, or perhaps some scenario like that. What advice would you give for women in that situation?

Pastor Dave: Yeah, well, we’ll get into a theological discussion right now, because I’m not into that at all. As a pastor, I think that’s between them and the Lord.

Pastor Dave: If they want a support group, a group is a great place to do it. As a spiritual leader, I don’t want to look out at my congregation and know specifically what their sins are. I mean, that’s crazy.

Anne: That’s interesting. So that would be a theological difference, obviously, between yours and my faith. Because in my faith, you’re expected to confess serious sins, and that’s part of the repentance process. You also would get that in like the Catholic faith, confession. And there’s several other faiths who believe in that spiritual practice of confession.

Pastor Dave: Absolutely, again, this is theological. I don’t believe as a member of the clergy that I have any absolving power over sin. That’s something that is between God and the person. So that’s not a power that I believe I’ve been bequeathed with. But yeah, we could get into a theological discussion.

Anne: Yeah, I’m grateful for your insight. So thank you for sharing that. I’ve actually never considered that’s not clergy’s role before until right this second, talking to you. If you have anything else you want to add, I’m happy to hear it.

Pastor Dave: Yeah, well, we can have a Bible study sometime, take a look at it. That would be fun.

Anne: Yeah, that’s awesome. You’re opening my mind. Thank you, for the purposes of this podcast, let’s continue talking about the guidelines that can keep congregants safe.

Pastor Dave: A couple other things to prevent clergy misconduct, keep messaging professional. So whatever the messaging is, whether it’s a phone call, a text or an email. Look at that text, that messaging, make sure it is professional. That it doesn’t, well, you used the word creepy. And that there’s nothing in there that says this relationship is or could be something more than what it is already, a professional relationship.

And if it goes beyond that, the bell should be going off and say, Hey, there’s a problem here. So here are some things to do to prevent clergy misconduct from happening. If it’s email, reply back and CC some people, so they can see what’s going on. If it’s text messaging, increase it to a group message with some trusted people.

Phone calls, make sure you have someone in the room with you when you’re having that phone call, put it on speakerphone if you have to. So all these things will provide safety barriers from someone on the other end who may be, and you don’t know for sure, may be a predator.

Anne: I’m so grateful that you’re talking about this in such a candid way. Thank you so much. So for the purposes of this podcast, since my listeners are victims of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion from their husbands. Who often go into clergy. And in my particular faith, the clergy is volunteer. None of them are highly trained, but I have heard stories from all faiths, that often clergy doesn’t understand abuse and gives victims of abuse harmful counsel.

Pastor Dave: That may not be considered clergy misconduct, but it certainly is unprofessional and does not fit with the sacred trust of ministry. I would call it pastoral misconduct or clergy misconduct in general.

Anne: Yeah. So let’s talk about this. My podcast is interfaith. So I speak with women who are Catholic Baptist, Jewish, every denomination of every type of faith. Women report that these interactions with clergy are traumatizing. When they talk about their husband’s abuse. They receive responses like you need more intercourse, or you need to be a Biblical woman and submit.

So specifically to my listeners, when they’re not in the scenario of experiencing clergy misconduct. Meaning there’s no intimate relationship with clergy, but they are experiencing clergy misconduct in general. Because they get misinformation when they go for help.

Pastor Dave: I’m going to give just a really easy answer. Don’t go to your pastor for marital counseling. Honestly, I mean, I have my doctorate, and I do not consider I have enough education to do marriage counseling. And if I begin, I am outside my knowledge base, and I am bound to give some stupid advice. So, I’d rather not do that. And for your listeners, I would rather they don’t get stupid advice either.

If they’re going to someone who knows less than they do, I mean, what’s the point? That’s a waste of time. Go to someone who actually has competency in that area.

Anne: Women also report going to family or marriage counseling and having it go off the rails. And not keep them safe. So this isn’t just a clergy issue.

Anne: This is a serious societal issue about people not understanding emotional and psychological abuse, how to spot it, and how to help victims get to safety. Similarly, my advice to our listeners is don’t go to a marriage and family therapist because they are bound by their licensing to see it as an equal problem. With an abuse situation, you really need a professional who genuinely understands emotional and psychological abuse and coercion.

Because it’s not just a communication issue where you’re going to improve your communication, and things will get better. If you are wondering if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Pastor Dave: And I would advise those in a position of spiritual power to work with groups such as yours that really have good skills in this area.

Anne: Yeah, that’s fantastic. So that’s what we specialize in. Emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, especially when it’s difficult for people to see it. Even victims themselves, when they’re not educated about it. It’s very difficult for them to even understand what’s going on. When we educate women about it, they’re like, Oh, now this is clear. So let’s go back to clergy misconduct.

If there’s anyone listening who has experienced this or is experiencing it currently. I’m sure there are many listeners whose husbands are pastors or clergy. Who know their husband had misconduct with one of the congregation members. This is the wife of the pastor, who is aware of her husband’s misconduct.

So I would say it’s more likely that someone is listening in this scenario. However, I’m sure there are also women who have experienced intimate misconduct themselves.

Pastor Dave: And that number is not small. Referring to that previous study, over three percent of women in any congregation have experienced clergy misconduct. So it’s not a small group of people. And I’m imagining that maybe one of your listeners has experienced it, and they’ve listened to it. And they say, yeah, that’s me. What do I do about it?

I think the first thing you need to know is it’s not your fault. It’s a predator’s fault, not yours. You are a victim. You are a victim of clergy misconduct. So don’t feel guilty about it. And if you’re ready, and you have support, speak up. And then find people that can walk on that healing journey with you.

Anne: And what would you say to the many wives who know about their husband’s misconduct and who have not been removed from their positions?

Anne: In fact, we have over 60,000 women in our community, and offer Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. We hear stories of this frequently where their husband uses inappropriate material, for example, or he’s had an affair, not necessarily with a member of the congregation, but with somebody. And he has shown he doesn’t have intimate integrity or integrity at all because he’s lied about it. What would you say to wives in that scenario?

Pastor Dave: If the evidence is clear, and you’re willing to take the risk, take that evidence to the person that’s overseeing your husband, and make clear your husband should not be holding that office.

Anne: Yeah, we’ve had lots of women who have done that and then they’ve just been dismissed. So that’s the thing that’s really difficult for women as they sometimes try and try and then it just gets exhausting.

Pastor Dave: It’s tough. You have to have a support team with you. To do it all on your own, and you’re being gaslighted just makes it more and more difficult. So you need that strength of a community behind you. Because every step you take, it gets ratcheted up on the other side. So you have to be strong. And to be strong, you’ve got to have people behind you. You’ve got to have a group of people that can listen to you, believe you, support you, and encourage you.

Anne: Well, I appreciate everything you’ve shared today about clergy misconduct, thank you so much for your time.

Pastor Dave: Thank you very much, Anne.

If you’re wondering, “what does God say about divorce and marriage?” here’s what you need to know. The Bible has told righteous people throughout all of time to separate themselves from wickedness. The word we use today for “wickedness” is abuse. To discover if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne: I have a member of our community. On today’s episode, we’re gonna call her Kayla. She’s going to be sharing her story. Kayla is a woman of faith. Part of her story is sharing when she realized she didn’t need to listen to what her pastor said. Or people at her church, so that she could develop her own relationship with God. And find out for herself what God says about divorce and marriage.

If you’re not a woman of faith, if you’re agnostic or atheist, her story will still relate to you. I don’t know why modern Christianity has taken this stance that the “other people” are dangerous. But refuse to see that maybe someone living in your own home is dangerous. The scriptures are clear about God’s stance on divorce and marriage.

Here are four that might help:

Proverbs 22:3 “The prudent see danger and take refuge.” So that means that we should separate ourselves from dangerous people.

II Corinthians 6: 17 “Therefore, come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing that I will receive you.” They’re talking about somebody who lies to you, somebody who is exploiting women.

Matthew 10:16 “I’m sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves.”

That’s talking about strategy, and you can learn more about what strategies we recommend. By enrolling in the Living Free Workshop. Get more information about that by clicking on this link.

John 16: 13 “The Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth.”

Obviously, God wants us to be safe and loves us, and that clergy or anyone else interprets scriptures to oppress us and tell us what God says about divorce and marriage,That’s spiritual abuse. And Kayla’s gonna share her story. The Holy Spirit warns and guides us. He helps us recognize danger and make decisions to protect ourselves.

Anne: So welcome, Kayla.

Kayla: I’m glad to be here.

Anne: Let’s start at the beginning when you first met, did you recognize his abusive behaviors?

Kayla: Well, no, from the start he carried himself as a complete gentleman. We worked together at a Fortune 500 company. When we met, he kept boundaries. That made me believe he had values. He appeared to have everything I wanted, handsome, courteous, church going and a family man.

We had a lot of the same interests, new restaurants, bowling and cruising. His family loved me. My family loved him. He put me on a pedestal. And of course. I loved it. So I painted this picture of him, like this church going person with character. I couldn’t see him for who he was. You know, his behavior was subtle, like of financial, understanding or miscommunication.

And I just kind of attributed to his upbringing. We had kids pretty quickly. So three to four years into our marriage, I wasn’t feeling the connection anymore and I was trying to improve our relationship. I thought that God was clear on divorce and marriage.

I tried having deep conversations with him, but he often fell asleep or said we can talk later. But later never came. And he had this tendency to not follow through, and he was having this trouble not only at home, but also at work.

Kayla: He was an IT person, and when he wasn’t going to his customer’s desk to help them, he would fall asleep. When he did his work, he made mistakes when he had to write-up. The write up of what he did, he forgot to do it. Many times it went missing. He didn’t follow through. So he was getting to the point where they were putting him on probation. Because he was sleeping on the job because he wasn’t doing his job.

And the same things I was seeing at home, not following through, falling asleep in the middle of a conversation. So it’s what led me to say maybe you need to get in a professional evaluation.

Anne: Okay, so you’re thinking, let’s see if something’s wrong. Just hearing this part, I wonder if he wasn’t paying attention, because he was doing stuff late at night. Where he wasn’t getting a lot of sleep and distracted with the double life he had going on. That’s my prediction, so we’ll talk about it a little later. Okay, so he gets diagnosed?

Kayla: He was diagnosed with ADD. He got on a DD medicine, and that seemed to help him at work. I didn’t get the benefits. Even though he claimed to be taking a second pill when he got home. I didn’t see the benefits of the follow through, the discipline, the focus at all. I thought his forgetfulness, his lack of follow through, his emotional distance were all symptoms he couldn’t fully control and I just felt I needed to be patient and supportive.

Kayla: Like I set times, let’s talk every night at nine o’clock. Let’s talk about our feelings, let’s talk about our relationship, our finances. But most of those conversations, I was left feeling empty and unimportant. And yes, we sought counseling. We went to yearly marriage conferences with our church. We went to a pastor for advice and support. I was trying to hard to honor what God wanted in my marriage and to save us from divorce. So I suggested and we attend couples therapy to help our relationship.

I met with the therapist. He met with the therapist, and we met once a month. We paid over $7,000 for 13 weeks Christian transformation sessions. And besides, we were the president of the marriage ministry, helping others with their marriage. I did a lot of personal reflection and improvement. I took the time when he came home, that first 30 minutes, to let him be to himself.

And I remember coming home from the marriage conference, learning that our bodies were not ours. And we should meet our spouse’s needs. Whenever they asked, I tried it. And without the emotional connection, I felt hollowed, used. I just couldn’t do that.

Anne: Right.

Kayla: I read books, books like Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, How to Have a Healthy Marriage. Our marriage vows before God made it harder, I think, for me to see the truth. Because I was deeply rooted in the idea that my marriage covenant was sacred and unbreakable. So it kept me focused on holding the relationship together at all costs.

So I stayed with prayer, effort, and patience, while my ex-husband didn’t seek to improve. And I just kept praying and putting the effort in. Thinking I knew what God thought about divorce and marriage, and that I had to make it work.

Kayla: I don’t know anyone who has put more effort into trying to hold their marriage together. I just did a lot to try to hold our marriage together.

Anne: When did you start realizing that all of this concerted effort was not working .

Kayla: Wow, so we attended this 13 weeks of extensive Christian transformation marriage sessions. It required that we work on a different aspect of our marriage every night. So we met in the weekly sessions. We had sessions directly with the Christian coaches, and we did something at night.

Anne: Was there abuse education as part of this intensive?

Kayla: No, it was all about seeking God, praying for your spouse, building your spouse up, looking at things differently. It was all saying that God hated divorce, and I had to save my marrriage.

Anne: So there was no abuse education whatsoever.

Kayla: Not at all. So we were talking every night. He started to come to bed, which you were alluding to. Many nights he did not come to bed. He stayed up all night long. And so things started feeling better. So much so that I believed we had reached a good place. But then things started happening again. I started feeling disconnected, and I went to him for some tweaks. Instead of trying to understand what I was feeling, what I was thinking.

He started deflecting and minimizing, and started talking about how he didn’t feel loved. And I put my feelings aside, and I asked him. Send me an email to explain why you don’t feel love and what it would look like for you to feel love.

Kayla: He emailed me a letter. In this letter, he wrote things like, I would like you to serve me a plate of food and bring it to me. After intimacy, I want you to get me a cold drink. I want you to dress provocatively for our nights out.

I was just floored, he wanted me to do his chores. That was his responsibility in the house, like taking out the trash, pulling the cans to the street. And that letter, I realized I didn’t know this man I was married to. And I realized it had to do with his wants and removing his responsibilities in the house, more than me showing love to him.

Anne: Right.

Kayla: And that’s when I realized something is desperately wrong. And then I went back to our therapist, and I said, I want to ask him about watching exploitative material. Because early on in our marriage, it had come up. I caught I caught him looking at it, and he said, oh, if you don’t want me to look at it, I won’t look at it anymore. I believed him, but didn’t believe him. So what I mean by that is, every now and then I would check his computer.

I would check his phone, nothing. Nothing was there at all. But in that therapy session, when I asked the question, he looked down, his face looked flooded with shame, almost in tears. And he admitted he was addicted and had been since he was a teenager. He rationalized it in his mind that it was okay, because he wasn’t touching a woman in the flesh. It was at that moment that I realized that all the work I had been doing didn’t matter.

Kayla: All the work that my therapist had done to build our relationship only worked in a healthy relationship. And I realized we didn’t have one. For 24 years he had been watching exploitative material. And later to find out so much more than that, but he said he had been watching it all day long.

Anne: And all night long.

Kayla: All night long.

Anne: Was my prediction accurate? That’s why he was so tired and distracted?

Kayla: Your prediction is 100% correct. He was up late at night. And one of my complaints was, why don’t you come to bed? And he would say, I’m not sleepy, and when I do come to bed too early, I can’t fall asleep. I just lay in bed.

Anne: Says the man who’s falling asleep all the time.

Kayla: Yes.

Anne: Mm-hmm, yeah, so when he tells you he’s been using, it’s not the whole truth at this point. Is he identified as an addict?

Kayla: He identified himself as a addict. But really, it was that moment, that moment when I realized the extent of his betrayal, just to paint the picture for you. I never thought he could deceive me, especially not in that way. So everything about us changed, and I realized I needed to rely on God. So my prayer just became God, uproot what’s in me, what’s in my husband, what’s in my marriage that’s not of you, I still was not considering divorce.

God, give my husband what he needs to be disciplined, focused, and changed. And if he’s not going to put the work in, do not let me move forward until you’ve made it clear that he’s changed and repentance of the heart.

Kayla: I was so up in the head from the fact that he had deceived me. I had to rely on God. But even then, I would’ve never thought it could be more. Because we did almost everything together. He didn’t hang out. We went to work. He came home, he went to church, he came home. But he was manipulating things, so his phone, he was going in incognito mode. On the computer, he was going into private browsing. When he went to the store, he went to a sex massage parlor.

Or when we were on vacation finding a street prostitute. I just had no idea that any of this was going on. SAI asked him to go into a recovery program. He started SA, but he was only going once a week to say he was going. He wasn’t doing any of the work. I then joined Infidelity Survivors Anonymous. I spoke privately to someone in the group, and she recommended I receive a full disclosure and a polygraph test. Because he might be doing more than pornography.

And that’s what prompted me to eventually ask him if he had cheated with anyone during our marriage, under the certainty that he would have to take a polygraph test. That’s when things started becoming a little bit clearer. Because my ex was so covert, I kept saying, my ex just has a DD. My ex would never do that to me.

You know, he loves me. He’s trying, I was still making excuses for him in my head. I was thinking about forgiveness and mercy, and that’s what God wanted in my marriage, not divorce.

Anne: I wouldn’t say you’re making excuses per se. I think you’re still resisting the abuse.

Anne: Safety is always a top priority for women. You’ve been trying to get to safety this whole time. You’re trying to get to emotional safety, you’re trying to get to psychological safety. You’re doing this through getting his ADD diagnosis through counseling. These are forms of resistance to abuse.

You are really safety focused this entire time. So it’s not that you’re in denial, it’s that you’re trying to get to safety with the information you have at the moment. So you can let yourself off the hook you only knew what you knew at that time. God wants us to be safe in our marriage, even if that means divorce.

Kayla: Right, at that moment I thought he only had an addiction. And I would’ve put my hands on the Bible that he never touched another woman. So when we had a therapy session. I asked him the question knowing that he was gonna have to take a polygraph test, and he said, yes, my brain left my body. Like I felt the abuse instantly.

It was like, what just happened? How could he have been pretending to be this man of God, this deacon at church? This church school teacher, all this time, telling me how much he loved me and was trying to do better. It made everything that I was thinking. That he was gaslighting me or deflecting and minimizing, and he was telling me that. Oh no, that’s not what’s happening. Oh, you are misinterpreting that. It made everything true for me.

He had not only been emotionally abusing me, but also financially abusing me. Because he was going to these massage parlors and with street prostitutes. I remember going to my therapist and saying to her, he’s deflecting, he has cognitive distortion.

Kayla: He’s selfish. At this point, she agrees with everything. And I said, when I look this up, it says this is all abuse. She’s like, it is. And I was shocked, like, why didn’t you tell me this? She said, well, I was treating him for these things in the hopes that I can help him get to the place where he can set goals. And work the goals, and be the person you were trying to get him to be.

Anne: Wow, wow.

Kayla: Yeah.

Anne: That is so insane, to be like I knew he was abusive. I had a therapist say the same thing to me. And I was like, it would be better if you said I didn’t know. Than to say I knew and didn’t tell you, because I thought I could change an abuser who is also lying to me. It’s like wild, that was really, really crazy.

Kayla: It was crazy, because I was doing anything and everything. And it had got to the point where I said to her, when I walk into my house, I feel bad energy. I’m not happy at home. Like I feel like running, I feel trapped. Now I’m finding out like there’s a clear reason why I felt that way, because of what was really going on.

And like you said, I was seeking safety. And I didn’t even realize I was seeking safety. I didn’t realize how much confusion I was under. I didn’t realize the person who said they would love me and take care of me for life was the one hurting me the most. God says “The prudent see danger and take refuge.” This was advice for marriage and divorce.

Anne: And deceiving you on purpose, and that is so, so painful. When we can finally wrap our heads around it. But it’s so difficult to perceive of that. It’s like mind bending. God says, “He will lead you to all truth.” about divorce and marriage.

Kayla: Yeah, so I had to decide what to do now. And it took me a minute, my brain was still confused. I was still going back. No, he would never do that. Oh no, he’s a nice guy. Oh, no, he cried at our wedding. So, I just needed him to leave my space, to get clarity. What is really going on? I asked him to leave the home. To give me that space, to do the research. To listen to podcasts, to do my reading to understand who he was and what he had been doing all along.

So I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. And you talked about betrayal trauma, and basically that’s what I was going through, right? And that’s when I started listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcasts. It was like an aha moment. Like listening to women tell their stories, and like, oh my goodness, that’s me. Oh my goodness, yeah. I felt that way. It just confirmed everything that I was thinking, feeling, and understanding.

Why other people couldn’t see it, right? Because he was Mr. Nice guy. Everyone loved him. He walked on water. And even though I’m telling people what he’s doing, what he did, they couldn’t see that. They couldn’t hear me and how I felt alone. Even with my friends, but listening to BTR, it was like, okay, I’m not alone. I’m not crazy.

Kayla: There’s a reason why people don’t understand it. It’s all part of the facade. It’s all part of the abuse, the intentional intentional abuse. To keep the two separate, to make sure they think I’m the perfect person, because I will need them to support me at some point. So the help I got by listening to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And knowing that I wasn’t alone, and everything I was feeling was real.

But even with all that, I still said I would stay in this relationship, if I can see that he repented. And I just continued to pray to God, and eventually I got the clarity that he was not going to change. God was telling me what to do about divorce and marriage. This is who he is. That person I was trying to return to who I thought I was marrying, didn’t exist. He’s this person here, I need to admit that this is who he is. And all these years, I’ve just been under emotional, financial, and intiamate abuse, and that was hard to swallow.

But once I got there. Once I got that peace from God, that this is what’s going on. That’s when I finally am able to say I want a divorce. I think the biggest thing is why it took me 24 years to realize I was being abused, right? As much as I knew something was wrong, as much as I was stressed out. I felt like I was carrying the weight of the family financially. As much as I knew I was carrying that weight, I just thought it was what a wife should do. Stand by her man.

Kayla: I didn’t know about covert, passive aggressive behaviors, and that’s what he was doing. I didn’t realize I had these thousand little cuts, and he was giving me these little bandaids to prevent the bleed out. Because everything he did, he did it under the pretense of, it was not my intention to hurt you. I’m so sorry. I love you. It hurts me when you don’t smile. We had a cycle of highs and lows that ironically strengthened the emotional ties I had to him.

And I clung to moments of kindness or affection, believing that was an indication of change in his behavior. I think also because of the good guy persona, right? I also wondered what was wrong with me. It appeared I had this good man, who went to work, went to church, and loved me. He just struggled with connection and consistency. But that’s because of the ADD. He wasn’t intending to hurt me. As this loving, supportive wife, it’s my job to support, help him, even if I’m drowning.

perception, leadingAlso just doubting myself, like everyone on the outside saw him as this perfect man. He had a reputation, and everyone loved him. That he was kind, charming, funny, and I didn’t see that complete person in my home. I allowed the confusion to trump how I felt by how others viewed him. And it caused me to question my own perception, leading to just more confusion and self-doubt.

But I think one of the bigger things was my faith. We were the presidents of the marriage ministry, and we were consistent churchgoers. I wanted to be a good example to God of not getting divorced and staying in my marriage.

Kayla: And we were conditioned to prioritize forgiveness, patience, and harmony over our own wellbeing, which made it difficult to recognize that abuse. It’s not two people trying to make a relationship work, but when you go to people and they say to you, just pray harder. What’s your part in this? And you constantly keep saying, well, I need to do this because I made a commitment before God. Understanding what God says about divorce and marriage is confusing.

All those things makes it hard to see the abuse for what it is. Because no one brings up the word abuse because it’s not physical. And also it’s a lot of little things over time that I didn’t realize. You know, this may sound really crazy. I am closer to God. Than I’ve ever been right now because I realized the difference. I was committed to the church, to the religion, but I needed to build my own relationship with God, hear God for myself.

And not hear other people’s interpretation of what he was saying to me. You know, I was listening to the preachers, when they say, divorce is not an option. The Bible doesn’t say divorce is not an option. I needed to get in God’s face and to understand what he was saying to me. And not what other people thought it should be. My mom passed away from Covid in April of 2020, and I was crushed. I fell on my face and I couldn’t get back up for it felt like years.

Like losing her left a void. When I fell on my face in my marriage, it was different. I got back up so much faster, but the damage felt so much worse.

Kayla: Why? because I realized through the grief that God is my comforter, that he’s my strength, and that he’s my everything and that I need to rely on him. Not anyone else. And even though I lost friends, I lost my church. I had God to help me through this process, the healing process. So I look at it differently, meaning that I have my own personal relationship with God not depending on other people interpretations.

Anne: A lot of women describe that time of being faithful, but feeling like God cared about the marriage. Or God cared about your husband, but he didn’t care about me, kind of a feeling. And then, realizing that God loves you and he really cares. He wants you to be safe. It’s such a different place to have that relationship just with God caring about how you feel. Than thinking that God doesn’t care about you unless you check off all these boxes.

Kayla: 100%, I did go through that feeling , I felt it when I lost my mom. Like, how could you do this God? With this situation, I felt it again, God, what did I do to deserve this? Right? And I had to realize He didn’t want me to feel like that, but on the other side of it, I said, you know what, God gave me two beautiful children from this. God loved me. God protected me while my ex was out there sleeping with prostitutes.

He protected me. God gave me the strength to be able to walk away from that marriage and even more. So he allowed me to align with him. God was telling me it was okay divorce and leave my marriage.

Kayla: And as much as my ex did to me and the pain he caused me, he is in a worse situation than I’m in. I have found peace in God. I know that I’m loved by God. And I know that I’m a better person, even though I went through that. I’m a stronger person now. I’m more determined now. I understand where my strength comes from. I understand where my peace comes from. The intuition that was happening throughout our marriage that I was getting constantly.

Anne: Mm-hmm.

Kayla: Not having all the pieces together. I understand it now. I understand that was God talking to me the whole time and I didn’t put all the pieces together. But now moving forward, I learned to trust my intuition more. Because I know that God’s talking to me and telling me my safety is important in divorce and marriage. And I know that God loves me and I know that God is going to give me all that I lost in those years with my ex.

Through the pain with my ex and the finances with my ex, that he’s going give all that back to me.I know that everyone that listens to your podcast may not worship God, but I want everyone to trust your intuition. Trust what you’re seeing moreso than what you are hearing. I listened to the words and I didn’t really watch the actions.

Watch how do you feel, because no matter what their intention is how do you feel, what’s the impact to you? Because you’re important, and if you’re getting the impact, the intention doesn’t even matter.

Kayla: Do the research. It was the research that made things a lot clearer for me when I was in this place of going back and forth. Not my acts, not mine, not mine, and made it clear. And the confirmations would just come. I would read something in the book and then I would see him do it. I was always taught what happens in your home, in your marriage. You don’t talk about, but if you are seeking help and you find someone to help you make sense of things.

I would advise you to have that conversation. Because when I finally did she had so many answers for me. She had been through something similar. She understood the abuse, and it was the only place that I really got the clarity of what this abuse looked like, so trust your intuition.

Anne: I love that through this process, women discover how smart, wise, and how capable they are. And realize that they were resisting the whole time and they were doing what they were supposed to do. You went for help to multiple, multiple places. That’s what someone smart does. And you got the wrong information.

And once you got the right information, you were able to make good decisions for yourself fairly quickly, and you would’ve made those decisions earlier if you had the information at that time. But the good news is you did the right thing the entire time. You are so brave and capable and have an amazing life ahead of you,

Kayla: Sometimes people stay together for their children.

Kayla: He was hurting me, it was hurting my children in my home. My daughter was affected, to the point where she has a hard time vocalizing how she feels. She felt something was wrong all along, but didn’t know what it was. She learned to stuff her feelings because of that.

Sometimes when we think we are doing a justice by not having certain conversations with our children, we’re doing them an injustice. and I believe that. Me finding out about my ex not only saved me, it saved my daughter and helped her to know that she needed to, learn to use her voice. It saved my son who did not understand the dangers of it. It’s a conversation that I can freely have with other people in my family, which is usually a taboo conversation.

The conversation is always, this is what boys do. So it’s very important to have these conversations, I believe, especially when someone in your family has this addiction. To have this conversation with others, children and so on.

Anne: Yeah. That’s so important. Well, Kayla, thank you so much for sharing your story today. I appreciate your bravery and your willingness to share so that other women could benefit from your experience with what God says about divorce and marriage.

Kayla: Thank you. I appreciate you for having me.

Has your husband (or his therapist) weaponized codependency language to harm you? Here’s why codependents anonymous might not be right for you.

When a husband lies and cheats, many women are told: “You’re codependent. You should go to Codependents Anonymous.”
But here’s the truth: men often pick up “codependency” language from sexual addiction therapists or marriage counselors, but it’s actually a form of victim blaming.

When a professional slaps the “codependent” label on a wife who’s been betrayed, it shifts responsibility for his lying or cheating onto her. Suddenly, she’s told her “neediness” or “lack of boundaries” is part of the problem.

Men who abuse and betray find blaming their wife’s codependency useful because if you’re “codependent,” then you share the blame. And you end up working on yourself while he keeps lying.

Women already blame themselves enough. Adding a “codependency” label just deepens the confusion, leaving victims focused on self-improvement instead of safety. That’s how the cycle of emotional abuse keeps going.

A Better Path Forward
If you’ve been lied to or betrayed, you don’t need to be labeled. You need support, safety, and clarity. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet daily and offer women the safe space.

Anne: I’m welcoming Melinda on today’s episode, who is like all of us are. She is the wife of a sex addict. The reason why I wanted her to come on today is that she commented on one of the articles on btr. org. Every single podcast that we do is transcribed and turned into an article and put on Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s website, btr.org.

We love people’s comments here. So if you haven’t joined the conversation, I welcome you to do that. Just comment below. And that’s how I met Melinda. So welcome, Melinda.

Melinda: Hi there. Thanks for having me.

Anne: So let’s start with your story, Melinda. How did your husband weaponize codependency language?

Melinda: My husband revealed he had been having an affair. And later revealed he had been seeing a sex masseuse and also abusing pornography. We entered into a process of trying to figure out what was going on. I understood it was not my fault, and that it was something that I felt we could overcome together.

He struggled a lot with all of it, and ultimately showed that he couldn’t meet me where I needed to be met, so that I can recover from the betrayal. But for a period of time, he entered 12 step, and he also actually, I should say, has been trained as a counselor.

Melinda: And when we entered therapy after the revelations of his betrayal, something kept coming up that was baffling to me. Our therapist reinforced it, that somehow there was something in our dynamic that I was responsible for. That’s why he did what he did and was acting out in the way he was.

I was trying to wrap my head around it because I’m a person who takes a lot of responsibility for our own behavior and actions. But I’m like, this doesn’t make any sense. I have also done a lot of work professionally, understanding trauma. So I was already under a trauma orientation, thinking I’m traumatized.

Why am I not getting understood here? Why does it keep coming back to something in my psychological makeup that’s creating this dynamic of his acting out behavior?

Anne: Essentially, it was trying to get you to take some form of accountability for the situation.

Melinda: Yes, and later I kind of understood where this is coming from when I started learning more about 12 step and codependency and what that means. How therapists and some in the 12 step field think about codependency.

I realized that a lot of that thinking was damaging to me. And neglected that his acting out was really, I’ve heard you use the term abuse, and I don’t know if I want to use that term, but it was definitely abusive. And a lot of his behavior, aside from the sexual acting out, was passive aggressive covert abuse,

Anne: Emotional abuse in the form of lies and manipulation.

Melinda: Yeah, and a charming and playful facade. A lot of it was gaslighty as well. What I realized is that codependency was a great excuse for him to not take responsibility. We had problems prior to this throughout our relationship. The problems in my view was that he did not take accountability for behavior and responsibilities.

When the word codependency or the concept of codependency came into our relationship. It just became another tool to gaslight me and deflect. It was confusing for a while, because I want to take accountability. But he used it to not actually address the harm he caused.

Anne: There’s that, and then it goes further than that. Because he’s not just using it to avoid accountability for the harm he’s caused. He’s also using it to try and pin it on you. That’s why I call that abuse, because he actively attempts to harm you.

Melinda: Yes, yes

Anne: I mean, he doesn’t see it that way. He just thinks he’s trying to get away with it, but that is the end result. The end result is that he’s harming you even further by lying about your part.

Melinda: Yeah, I became a scapegoat for many, many things, and this just allowed even more scapegoating. You know, his decisions to cheat and all the other stuff were part of that scapegoating. I didn’t understand why this was happening. I was reading a lot of books on how to help your partner heal, and what does reconciliation look like? And I was bringing them to him, and he kept coming up with, why don’t you focus on yourself?

Melinda: And I’m thinking, I’m focusing on what I need to allow you back into my life. And anytime I said, you know, your defensiveness is hurting me. I don’t trust you, you’re not doing trustworthy things. He said, well, stop focusing on me and focus on yourself. It didn’t make sense until I started looking at what codependency tells people. It tells them to focus on themselves, not on others. Which sounds great, but in the hands of an abusive and exploitative person, it can go awry.

Anne: Well, and also it’s what they want you to do. They would like you to stop confronting them about their abusive behaviors. So because that’s what they want, they want you to “work on yourself,” which to them means leave me alone.

Melinda: And a lot of this is about thinking that you’re controlling. And my orientation, philosophical and spiritual frame. I have a Christian background. But I have more alignment with Buddhist mindfulness practices, as well as I’ve become more of a feminist. I think about feminist psychology much more.

I look at it in that frame, and I see a lot of women being held responsible for men’s behavior in the culture. And I think that was just a natural extension of the woman is making me do this. He even intimated that the affair partner was the aggressor in this situation. And that somehow she was this temptress.

Anne: What could I do? She kissed me. I couldn’t do anything about it, right?

Melinda: So I’m always aware of the gender dynamic, and our therapists played along with it.

Melinda: She was a new therapist. So that was like the double trauma of facing the reality of his infidelity and all that. And then a therapist reflecting it back on me in our supposedly safe setting.

Anne: It sounds like the therapist became an extension of the abuse. So let’s go back to where you’re being supportive of his recovery. Did you ever attend 12 step or COSA, which is co sex addicts? Did you ever attend either of those groups?

Melinda: I did. What struck me was that I felt in COSA, I had to align with codependency. One of the few times I went for instance, there was one woman agonizing over her partner. Who was holed up in the basement with the computer looking at pornography. He wouldn’t leave the house, and I hear her describe the story. Instead of saying how angry and indignant about how wrong that was. And how inappropriate that was, she went back to, well, I’m going to focus on myself, take care of myself.

Melinda: And I thought, are you allowing abuse in your home because it’s easier? Because you don’t know how to set the boundary or even draw a line? I just felt like she just caved in to feeling like she’s beholden to the situation and must allow it to continue.

Anne: I think that happens a lot. Women don’t know what to do, and confronting it seems so difficult. Also the consequences of confronting it seem so difficult. Like, I can’t do that. And so, I’ll focus on myself, which becomes a way for them to do something.

I feel a lot of compassion in this stage for victims, because it’s difficult to know what to do. Living with an abuser or divorcing an abuser. Both choices are not good. The best choice is if you could have him not be abusive anymore, which you have no control over. So it’s a way that victims try to empower themselves sometimes.

And I think that all of us go through a stage like that. We can hold a space of compassion for ourselves when we were in that stage and others in that stage, as they work through exactly what they need to feel safe, because it takes time.

Melinda: Yeah, absolutely, I certainly had to accept where he was in his path. And that it was not in alignment with where I wanted to be. So that definitely took time.

Melinda: Just really allowing myself to feel how terrible the codependency situation was. And that allowed me to move forward. Realizing that I wasn’t the kind of person who was gonna say, well I’m gonna focus on making myself happy. And let him have his life in our home in our relationship. That wasn’t gonna work for me. I could not abide a relationship with a person taking advantage of the situation to gain advantage of my compassion, my understanding. And really not supporting me and being a fair partner.

And so that’s why I bring up about gender, and are women being encouraged to look the other way and take responsibility for men’s bad behavior. Just the message that we have to even help take care of them. And I think that can easily become exploited.

Anne: Absolutely.

Anne: With this concept of codependency in your experience with therapists, how did codependency cause therapy induced trauma? Let’s talk about that for a bit.

Melinda: Yeah, we had worked with mostly traditional therapists, marriage and family therapists.

Anne: Many sex addiction therapists claim to know about betrayal trauma, but they don’t actually practice it. They just do codependency and call it betrayal trauma. And that is dangerous. Sex addiction therapists don’t seem to understand it. The best people seem to be abuse experts from what we’ve experienced.

Melinda: A therapist we’d been with for a long time left me with a lot of trauma. I have a lot of hesitation to even find a new therapist.

Codependency is a framework that’s part of a lot of therapy training. It’s a dance, that you have a relationship dance, and you each have a part in all your stuff and his stuff. Our therapists fail to recognize, like you said, abuse and trauma.

So they fail to understand what abuse looks like, what covert abuse looks like, and what emotional abuse looks like. That abusers can come into an office and look like the calmest, sweetest, most cooperative people. While you’re the partner tearing her hair out and looking like a crazy woman in the office.

Then you look like the one who’s unhinged and angry. And our therapist did say, if it wasn’t for your dynamic, he wouldn’t have cheated. And I later realized, no, it has nothing to do with me. I had to realize that it was part of his retaliation for me, even having expectations of cooperation and accountability in our relationship.

Melinda: And instead of being cooperative and accountable. He thought, well, she’s no good. She’s giving me a hard time. Women on Pornhub are better for me.

Anne: Right, which is what abusers want. They would like to manipulate and, I won’t say, beat down physically, but to the point where they get what they want. That’s the point of the abuse. And for a therapist not to notice it, it’s also interesting in the progressive communities, for example. And I tend to live in that world, in an effort to be politically correct. They end up throwing victims under the bus unknowingly.

So you’d think they would understand abuse, but I have found neither side understands it. conservatives and liberals, neither one of those groups truly understands abuse.

Melinda: Yes, I don’t think therapists actually understand trauma and how to be trauma informed around betrayal. Our therapist was trained to be even handed, you don’t take sides.

Anne: Neutrality only serves the perpetrator, because neutrality is there are two sides to the story, and both stories are of equal truth. And it serves the perpetrator, because if they can say, I did this, but she did this. We have this toxic dance. It’s a toxic relationship, rather than saying, I’m the abuser. Some go as far as to say, I didn’t do anything wrong, and she’s the abuser. So many victims are accused of abuse themselves, which is also super scary.

Melinda: Yes.

Melinda: And in fact, in our therapy sessions and even my conversations with my spouse, I said, you know, he betrayed me. I said this to our therapist. He betrayed me. And she said, well, I think you’ve both betrayed each other. And I thought, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? I did not. And I’ve only had loyalty and allegiance to our marriage and family life together. So that was just red meat for him to feed his victimhood,

Anne: I’m guessing the abuse got worse.

Melinda: It just continued the pattern of blaming me, being covertly abusive, gaslighting and love bombing. Then he’d wonder why I withdrew. And blowing up at me for withdrawal. And just kept continuing. As I saw this pattern over and over again, I’m holding my boundary. I’m saying clearly what I need, what I expect. He couldn’t get past that in my boundary. He tried love bombing. I love you, I love you, I love you.

He tried all kinds of things. He wanted me to let go of what I knew in my heart was needed for us to have a healthy relationship. For me to let go of expectations of him and by declaring his undying love and grandiose gestures, and I wasn’t going to accept it. I knew in my heart that I needed something authentic.

Anne: Like one woman, she said, okay, I’m going to file for divorce. She filed, he came back and said, I’ll do anything. I’ll do anything. And she said, okay, these are the things you need to do. And he didn’t do those things, but he would say the right things, right? So you can clearly see when their actions are not matching their words. That’s manipulation, grooming, love bombing and not recovery.

Melinda: And of course, when I said here love bombing, he said, How do you judge me? You’re judging me. And so I thought, I’m not going to get anywhere, because I’m trying to call out and name the things that are not right in this situation. That are not working with the desire to see things work, not to punish.

And that was another accusation that I constantly faced. That I was trying to punish, control and avoid my own problems by naming what was happening.

Anne: Well, the weird thing is that one of your own problems is that you were being abused. So you clearly stated one of your own problems.

Melinda: Women use their voice. and speak up. A lot of our rage and anger in these situations is that we’re tired of being exploited, abused or taken advantage of. We’re written off, we’re told we’re crazy or want to control everything. I think we have to recognize male entitlement in many situations.

Melinda: I think that gets missed when we’re just thinking about, well, women are punishing because she can’t look at her own stuff. Or she’s controlling the situations because of her own trauma. And I think so many women are pretty self-reflective and pretty thoughtful. Women have been working on their own sort of self healing for many, many years.

Let’s celebrate that and acknowledge that women have evolved a lot of good self care, and empowerment. Abusive men need to have a lot more work around how to come along with us. I do think the codependency models kind of holding women responsible for their partner’s alcoholism, that’s just from another time.

And I think. women are doing their own healing. They’ve been doing it for a long time. I think we need to work on abusive men and their entitlement.

Anne: I love feminist theory. I’m a happy, unabashed and unapologetic feminist. And I think radical feminism is the only way to beat this. By saying my opinions are just as important as yours. What I want in a marriage is just as important, and if you want someone who will be quiet and look the other way. This marriage will not work for me. And I, as a woman, have the right to say that, and I have the right to set boundaries around it. It’s okay with me if that’s not what you want.

Anne: And if it’s not, then have a nice life. So when I first married. I am opposed, and I know that many listeners aren’t. So I do not want to offend anyone right now. I oppose guns and motorcycles. When I dated my ex-husband, I said to him, if you like guns and motorcycles, that is super cool for you, right? Like, I am so happy for you. That’s great. I will not date you. So you just do your thing, shine on, and live your life.

And he told me, I don’t ride motorcycles. And I don’t like guns. I’m not a gun person. And I was like, cool. Well, I found out later that was a complete lie and manipulation. So I tried to be upfront, I was very obvious about it, what I wanted. And he thought he could gaslight me. Rather than saying, oh, you know what? I love guns and motorcycles. We’re probably not a good fit. Do you know what I mean?

So same thing with a pornography. I don’t want someone who will cheat and look at pornography, lie and manipulate me. So if that’s who you are, then shine on. You live your life just far away from me. And I think women are becoming empowered to the point where they can start saying that. The hard thing is when the man looks like that person, when he manipulates you.

Anne: And now I’m not dating, but if I go on a date I would actually probably keep my opinions to myself, because I don’t want him to know what I think, I just want to know what he thinks.

So I’d maybe say, How do you feel about guns? Without telling him what I thought, so that I could hear what he thought, just without knowing what I thought. Does that make sense? So that I can’t be manipulated. So I think my dating strategy will be much more cautious and take it a lot slower, and also not put everything out there while I get to know the person.

Because I don’t want them to use it against me or to use it to manipulate me. I’m afraid someone will groom me again. Let’s put it that way.

Melinda: Yeah, I think men in this world have to understand what we’ve been through and why we may come off as guarded or protective, or suspicious. Despite our best intentions to be trusting and open hearted, there’s a lot that some of us have been through that makes that very difficult.

Anne: Well, and I think we’ve learned to look for what a trustworthy person looks like. It takes time. You cannot determine that from a five minute conversation or a 10 minute conversation. You can’t determine it from a one two hour date. It takes time, years and experience to figure out whether someone is trustworthy. So taking our time is important.

Anne: And had we done that before, we might not have even hit the nail on the head. Because we might not have known what we were looking for, but we know better now, which is awesome.

Melinda: That’s a great point. I think that’s where I’ve arrived to know clearly what I’m about. And when I see something disconnected, or when I meet someone disconnected from that, it’s incompatible. I can see it more clearly, and that helps, I think. That you just know yourself better and recognize somebody else that might be unhealthy for you. To your point of having the boundaries and being willing to say, you know, this isn’t for me.

This relationship isn’t for me, because, you know, you’re doing you, and it’s not working for me. That I know not all women can do that. I know so many women trapped in these situations, for whatever reason. And leaving is, may feel worse than staying if they held their boundary. But for me, I found that as I struggled, we have two children. So leaving took a while, but eventually I found the logistical possibilities to make it happen, to have him leave.

That’s when things really changed. He couldn’t hide and manipulate me anymore because he wasn’t around. I could stand more firmly, and then he had to reckon with himself. And so, he reckons with himself now. I’m still not sure if that’ll bring us back together.

Anne: Well, thank you so much Melinda for coming on today’s podcast. I appreciate you sharing your story, and I loved the word weaponizing. So I want everybody to consider in what ways certain therapy language hurts abuse victims.

Husband future faking is when a husband uses promises about the future (trips, counseling, moving, budgets, a baby, “I’ll change”) to control what you do today, delaying consequences, buying time, and keeping access, without producing consistent, verifiable change.

To see if it’s real, you don’t need to chase updates. The thing he spoke about will come to fruition without you checking up on it.

Create a promise log (date → promise → deadline → outcome → notes). Screenshot texts, calendar invites, bank statements. Patterns beat arguments.

In your mind, move to thinking about observable checkpoints (e.g., “By [date], I’ll check to see if I have access to the bank account.”)

(Notice: no threats, no explanations. You protect your peace and watch behavior.)

Is husband future faking a form of emotional abuse?
Yes. It manipulates your decisions today with promises that rarely materialize, keeping you in harm’s way emotionally.

How long should I wait for “real change”?
Look for months of quiet, consistent, verifiable behavior, without you bringing it up again.

Should I confront him about future faking?
Debate often feeds the cycle. Document, set boundaries, and observe from a safe distance.

Anne: So, I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Mackenzie. Welcome.

Mackenzie: So I happened to be at a conference, and there was a wonderful speaker there, and she introduced him. She talked a little bit about his story and sort of a larger context. And she’s a wonderful speaker and writer. She really sold him. So when I met him in person a month later. I had such a favorable impression.

Anne: This happens with people who maybe get set up or people who attend the same congregation or workplace. Where his reputation sort of precedes him. It’s coming from other people, there’s kind of an automatic trust, because other people have vouched for him ahead of you meeting him.

Mackenzie: Absolutely, yeah, when you have multiple solid professionals, people in the public eye. Who have these favorable relationships. There was a counselor, and they were a strong supporter, even financially with some of his work. So there was just a legitimacy.

Mackenzie: Is my husband a jerk? And now with the benefit of hindsight, and more than a decade later, I can see that he carefully crafted this image. At least at the time I met him, he had done a pretty good job of it. He had obtained some prestigious fellowships. You know, you’re like, how did I not see it? But the truth is, how did they not see it? I was new in that space with important people surrounding him, and he really exploited that.

I felt a little awestruck that he and I would have a conversation. Our relationship developed because he reached out and asked me to be part of these different groups. I think he added me on social media, and sent me a message. He started to ask me to do things, and I think that’s really important, because it was a low time in my life. And feeling like I could make a difference for a cause greater than myself was appealing.

I was at the tail end of being part of a religious group, and I was looking for a place to belong. You hear a story of suffering, pain, and injustice. Regardless of the origin of the story, there’s a tenancy toward wanting to help. He wanted to use my speaking and writing skills for his organization. Kind of an informal, volunteer sort of thing. We would have different touch points, whether it was like a meeting, action or activity. He was definitely orchestrating the crossing of paths.

Mackenzie: I was taking the LSAT. I had ambitions of being a lawyer. I think he felt that between my skills with writing, speaking, and then studying the law, I would be really helpful. Whether it was can you write this grant proposal for me? When you’re a good writer, it’s apparently an in demand skill that not great people want to access for themselves.

It was a perfect storm. I had no idea what I was getting involved with, none. Never in my wildest dreams did I believe that a person who presented like this could use other people around them to cover up. I was really, really conflicted when he showed interest.

Anne: Talk more about the conflict you experienced.

Mackenzie: He claimed he and his ex spouse had attorneys working on their case. We are separated, it’s nearly done. I was so naive. He began to ask me, do you want to live with me in this fancy high rise apartment downtown? He didn’t live there, and he never ended up living there. Because he was future faking.

Anne: Also, there’s probably some manipulation in terms of flattery. This person everybody else says is amazing, thinks I’m worth his attention. And this is how good they are at manipulation.

Mackenzie: Yeah, it’s true. I wasn’t in need of anything from him. But I was lonely. I moved in with him. I had never had intercourse before. And I had my own career.

Around the time I was like, it’s just not working. It’s just toxic. Too much conflict. I found out I was expecting my child. And I was raised in an environment where a two parent family is everything.

Makenzie: I was trying my hardest to make that work for what I believed was the right thing for my child. I even remember like a physical change in myself, the night I found out I was expecting. It was like I couldn’t fully stand up for myself anymore with him. I had to change myself so that he would respond more favorably. So that the environment for our child and me would be safer.

I know now that’s not good. At the time, I thought I would work hard to help better our lives. When I knew something was really, really wrong, though. In the middle of my pregnancy, he was asleep and it was late. He locked his phone down. I’ve never met another person who locked down their devices to this degree. Who took them everywhere, bathroom, anywhere.

I somehow got in his phone, and I found a conversation with a stranger, aggressively soliciting for it. And I was like in shock. I mean, I’m pregnant, and I’m terrified. I’m like, I need to get tested for STDs. You know, a range of thoughts. I was like shaking, and then I went and woke him up and confronted him. Probably the dumbest thing I could have done. And he just kind of sat there for a long time, and then he told me a story.

He was trying to entrap the police, by reverse stinging their stings. The next day I had work, and after work I stayed somewhere else. I was like, I need to think. And then within a few days, I joined affair therapy groups and stuff.

If your husband is acting like a jerk and you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today.

Mackenzie: Abuse wasn’t part of the conversation. It was a lot of just focusing on what you can do for yourself in your own situation. That’s the irony, I’m stuck in this dude’s mess. In the distraction of therapy groups, . And, I end up like, you know, moving back with him.

Anne: You don’t know what you don’t know.

Mackenzie: No, you don’t! Exactly! And when you’re raised in that church environment, you’re taught to trust people. I’m not looking for something I don’t know exists.

Anne: Yeah, a church setting, they’re not like, this is wickedness.

Mackenzie: Right.

Anne: Avoid these people in your own home. They’re more like, there’s these bad people outside that are like, far away from us.

Mackenzie: Right, the others.

Anne: Yeah, exactly, rather than your own husband, or partner.

Mackenzie: Yeah.

Anne: The person close to you, is he a jerk or an evil person?

Mackenzie: Exactly, he’s the person you’re supposed to trust and rely on. So at the end of the year that our child was born. My partner had a car accident and sustained a traumatic brain injury. This accident changed everything we were doing. And any negative that was going on before was amplified. And then there were quite a few new issues.

He had extensive amounts of therapies: Neuropsychologists, physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, cognitive therapy. This became part of our life for several years, both in a hospital, in an outpatient setting, and then even in our home. We had therapists coming through the home. So through this, we did couples counseling. We actually got referred to what was supposedly one of the top couples counselors in this whole health system.

Mackenzie: I like cleared an entire day of work. I was no longer going to work on Wednesdays, because we were going to go to couples counseling. And it was a huge deal. I had to like find childcare and all this stuff. Our case completely perplexed them. And after a few months, he told me he was “too sick” to go to counseling. And I put too sick in quote marks because he was not too sick to go to the Apple store.

Yes, after his accident, he never went back to work. Not only did he not financially contribute in any meaningful way. He began to drain our finances to an extreme amount using various Apps and games. I mean, like hundreds and thousands of dollars were going missing. It was insane. Was it something like gambling? I’ll never truly know everything. He even used cryptocurrency.

Then a couple of years later, just before we split, we did couples therapy again. I was so ambivalent by that point. I remember the therapist repeating seems like you don’t know you could go either way. And I was so numbed out by that point because of the amount of discoveries I’d found. Just outrageous behavior, betrayals, and frightening stuff.

I tried to talk about a lot of it in counseling. But, in the counseling sphere, I don’t think abuse was brought up, and I had several counselors.

Mackenzie: The most disturbing discovery I made was that he had conversations with teenagers on Snapchat, in texts. And I’m finding this out piecemeal, by having a computer left up. He was very, very shrewd and secretive, extremely secretive. I found he was sending pictures of our child, using our child as part of grooming someone else. I was outraged. And that was the point, enough things had happened. I decided I am not going to confront him about this.

Anne: Ah, using the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop strategies.

Mackenzie: Absolutely, so it took me a little over a year. I did some big career moves, I prepared in secret. I wanted to sustain myself and my child. We weren’t married, but in our state, there is this common law factor. Due to so much interaction with the medical system. He had encouraged me to begin to refer to him as my husband. It was calculated.

The last couple’s counselor, the last time I talked with her, I called her and I was so apologetic. I’m like, I’m so sorry. I know I did not cancel with 24 hours notice, we’re not going to be able to have our couples counseling session today because I’m trying to see if there’s a tracker on my car.

Anne: Yeah, that is crazy that you went to multiple therapists and none of them identified it as abuse.

Mackenzie: I know, I could go on and on about post separation abuse and legal problems. I learned later, thanks to the IRS, about actual criminal activity. He was caught red handed through Snapchat and Instagram. Yeah, he was sentenced to decades in prison.

Mackenzie: I got a protective order when I left. I spent beyond my life savings on legal fees to protect myself and my child. Because I realized, this person was so destructive. I mean, I haven’t even mentioned there’s assault. There’s so many things, but this person was just hell bent on destruction and doing what they wanted to do. And I needed to protect myself and my child.

That’s why I filed for divorce from someone I wasn’t married to, because I wanted a legal end to any connection with this person. Because they’re terrifying, like, absolutely terrifying. Like, when I left, he stalked me, actually showed up at my workplace looking for me. And he’s still a victim. I hadn’t heard from him in a long time, but a few months ago, he sent a letter to my dad’s house. He was pretty much an atheist when we were together, but now it looks like he’s found God.

Anne: Let’s just add spiritual abuse to it.

Mackenzie:Yeah, never in my wildest dreams would I expect someone who’s publicly advocating for others and putting themselves in the super public role. Would actually commit behind the scenes crimes with other people’s children. This goes way beyond just being a jerk. When you put it all together, and I spent years in a caregiving role for this person. I funded their life. Whatever money he was getting. He did not put in the family pot, but whatever I earned, he needed access to it.

Anne: Wow, did the advocates who propped him up and supported him become aware that he was a criminal and in prison?

Mackenzie: Yes, most of those people, to my knowledge, do not support him now. He borrowed quite a sum of money to bail himself out of jail. And that money didn’t go back to that person. I think it shows you the mind of someone like this, someone with an antisocial personality. The mind of someone who is rational, but with no conscience. There is no boundary, they will not limit themselves to any sort of moral behavior.

Periodically, he’d tell me I was his moral compass. And I didn’t really understand what he meant by that. But I think I get it a little more now. He had no real moral direction.

Anne: To use a good cause as a shield for your own bad behavior is really alarming.

Mackenzie: It is, it makes me suspicious of people who are extremely vocal, especially men. It makes me wonder, because I’ve seen the underside of that. I trust a lot less than I did before.

Anne: Umhmm, yeah, that makes sense. I appreciate you taking the time to share your story with us. Thank you so much. You’ve been through so much, and I’m happy to hear that you are safe.

Mackenzie: Thank you so much for having me on here. I really appreciate it.

Covert emotional abuse is difficult to identify. If you’re wondering if you’re husband is using covert emotional abuse, here’s what you need to know.

To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne Blythe, M.Ed. Host of The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, talks to Nadira, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community about her husband’s covert emotional abuse.

Covert abusers are often charming, confident, and seem to speak and act in a gentle and polite manner. It can be terrifying for victims to suddenly realize that the inconsistent cruelty and confusion they experience is abuse.

Men who covertly abuse women don’t always hit, yell, break things, or lash out. Instead, the abuse is more subtle and hard to pin down. This makes covert abusers appear “normal” and makes victims feel crazy, overly-sensitive, and nit-picky. The reality, of course, is that victims are often under reacting to the gaslighting, manipulation, and crazy-making they are experiencing.

Because abusive men usually lie about their sexual behaviors, including exploitative materials use and affairs. Women are in serious danger of STD infection. When men lie about their behavior, or withhold information, they commit coercion.

Coercion is an umbrella term for partner rape and sexual abuse. Women are victims of coercion if they don’t have the information they need to give informed consent before contact.

When women have contact without knowing the truth about their partner’s use, past and/or current partner(s), STDs, compulsive masturbation, or other behaviors, they become at-risk for STDs and STIs, exploitation, and the intense trauma that accompanies betrayal.

One of the most dangerous aspects of covert abuse is the way it is gradually intensified and normalized by abusers.

Covert abusers are master-manipulators and often have more self-control than physical batterers. Because of this, they can slowly groom victims into accepting abuse as normal – and even feel grateful during the brief periods when their partner is not inflicting psychological damage.

Because covert abusers are often exploitative materials users. Men will hide behind the label of “sex addict”, reaping the privileges of being an “addict” while continuing to harm and cast blame on partners.

While some individuals may truly suffer from addiction to sex and pornography (yes, it is addictive), all men who use pornography are abusers.

When therapists, 12-step groups, clergy, and others encourage families to view the abusive man as addicted, they minimize the danger of the abuse and enable the abuser. Abusers can change, but it’s probably not through CSAT therapists.

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know how maddening, terrifying, and heartbreaking it can be to suffer at the hands of a covert abuser. The confusion and distortion of reality is enough to drain energy, hope, and joy from anyone’s life.

But healing is possible: with self-care, safety, and support. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets daily in multiple time zones to offer victims a safe place to process trauma, share their stories, ask questions, and connect with other victims who get it. Join today and begin your journey to healing.

Anne: Before we get to this week’s guest. We have a lot of women who listen to the podcast, who are not of any faith or aren’t Christians. I want to welcome everyone and thank everyone for listening. When women share on the podcast, I always want them to share from their own personal faith or paradigm. That means I frequently share from my own, and this podcast is not just for members of my church, but for everybody.

We have a member of our community on today’s episode, who comes from a Muslim background, although she converted to Christianity. We’re going to call her Nadira. Nadira and I will be talking about covert emotional abuse. And as she shares her story, I’m going to stop and point out six examples of covert emotional abuse. Welcome Nadira.

Nadira: Hi Anne. I have to say that’s something I appreciate about your podcast, because I know you’re a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so when I first started listening, I thought maybe it was just for people that belong to that faith. But as I listened to the podcast, I was encouraged that this is for all women from all types of faith backgrounds.

But the truth is, we share this thing in common, in that we’ve all been abused. It’s been comforting for me to hear from all types of women with all types of beliefs.

Anne: Oh, thank you so much for saying that. Yeah, that’s important to me that everyone feels welcome here. Everyone has different epiphanies based on their experience. I want women to share those. So the other women can hear them and realize they’re not alone. And that we’re all so similar.

Thanks for saying that. I appreciate it. Let’s talk about your story. Did you recognize abusive behaviors in the beginning?

Nadira: What I will say is yes and no. No, I didn’t have a category or the right verbiage for it. But what I knew was something was terribly wrong from the beginning. I’m Middle Eastern.

My dad is from the Middle East, and I was raised Muslim, but came to faith as a Christian when I was 16. I took that decision seriously and devoted my life to my faith. It was life changing for me. And when I met my ex-husband, he was on full time staff with a Christian organization.

He was basically a missionary. We actually took Bible classes together when I met him. He checked all the boxes. He is a master manipulator, like men I’ve heard about on this podcast. And so sadly, I kept thinking, well if I would change, or maybe I’m being ridiculous. I kept questioning myself, but innately, I knew something was terribly wrong.

Nadira: On our honeymoon, my ex-husband actually decided to play volleyball in a two on two tournament for two days in a row with a totally hot woman in her bikini and flirt with her the whole time. Now, I asked him about it. I’m a person who’s forthright in what I feel, and I told him I felt hurt. I said I didn’t want him to do it, and the next day he did it again.

Anne: Oh wow, wow, on your honeymoon. I’m so sorry. So that’s our first example of covert emotional abuse. It was his absolute lack of consideration for you on your honeymoon. Like he was more into this other person than his own wife on her honeymoon. I am so sorry. I mean, how did the rest of the honeymoon go?

Nadira: I always felt like I was overly jealous in the conversations with him. I was insane. And so right from the get go, there was a precedent set that he could do whatever he wanted and flip it all around. And I would feel like what is wrong with me?

That continued, and so in my gut, I always knew there was something terribly wrong. But my ex-husband, like so many people I’ve heard about on this podcast, which really helped me not feel alone. He’s well liked, by the way. And he’s always been the pastor’s best friend. He’s a successful businessman. He was actually a star athlete.

Nadira: He had this Opie Taylor image, that he was just this aw shucks, unassuming guy, and everyone loved and trusted him. And so I always felt like, what’s wrong with me? And he would say that to me, like, what’s wrong with you? Everybody else loves me. But I was extremely neglected in our home.

I was a newlywed, I just moved across the country. And I felt very alone. We lived in a house built in 1948, so it was very small. He would disappear into the office for hours, and he would work long hours outside the home. And in his free time, he was either in the office. Or he watched TV and I was so lonely. I was seven months pregnant.

And I thought I’m going to leave and see if he even notices. So, I left the house, seven months pregnant, in an unsafe area, by the way. And two and a half hours later, he calls me and says, What are you doing? Where are you at? It took two and a half hours for him to even notice that I had left our little 1, 200 square foot house. So, the neglect was extreme.

Anne: That’s our second example of covert emotional abuse, emotional neglect. Like he didn’t even notice that you were missing. I can imagine in that situation you would feel so alone. I went through that too. Because right after I married, I moved to be with my ex, and I felt so alone too. And he would just take off and not tell me where he was going. What else did you notice early on? Other than the emotional neglect?

Nadira: Pretty early on, one week before our oldest child’s birth. I had gone downstairs earlier than normal and caught my ex-husband looking at it.

Anne: And there is example number three. So the third example of covert emotional abuse is secretly using. It’s covert because you can’t see it because he’s hiding it from you.

Nadira: Prior to marriage, I had actually asked him, which is abnormal at the time. But I had asked him about it, because I heard of a story where pornography had invaded a marriage. And so I asked him about his experience with it. And of course, he lied to me and said he didn’t have a problem or any issues with it.

I went through all the normal feelings of what’s wrong with me. Why am I not enough? Does he love me? All those questions that are normal. So when I caught him one week before the birth of our first child. At that point, I knew, okay, there is something much deeper going on here. That’s not about me.

Anne: Lying is example number four. Lying is covert emotional abuse. You’re resisting the entire time. Knowing that something was wrong, and in your efforts to resist, where else did you turn for help?

Nadira: Yeah, I tried a lot of things. I’m just a proactive person, especially in relationships. From the beginning, I was reaching out for marriage counseling, pastoral counseling, to do marriage workshops.

He worked for a well known Christian organization, and they had resources for us. So we were utilizing all those resources. In all that, he could answer and look like a shining great guy. But no one was in our home to see the neglect. For other listeners who can relate to this, I wanted to share this.

So, my ex-husband was not a screamer or yeller. He did push me once or twice, which is abuse. That was in a really extreme moment, and it was not the norm. He did everything with a smile on his face. So he was always cool, calm, collected, and always smiling. So all the neglect, all the flirting with other women in front of me. And the inappropriate stuff he’s done with our children has all been done with a smile on his face. It was not this ogre like persona.

Anne: Let’s pause here for just a second to point out the fifth example of covert emotional abuse. It doesn’t look bad, it looks nice and kind, he looks like a responsible, upstanding person. And that’s why it’s covert, because you cannot see it. Before we get to the inappropriate things he did with your kids. Can we return to marriage counseling? When you did pastoral counseling, did anyone identify the abuse or him as an abuser?

Nadira: Never, not one time. So to give you a little history, I caught him. Well, then I caught him again. And then he seemed to do well for years. And then the last time I caught him, it had escalated for years. There was a lot I didn’t know, he had been having affairs. He had engaged with prostitutes. Also, he had brought prostitutes into our home on several occasions. He had done all these horrific things to our family. And at that point even, I was told it was addiction.

So then we went the addiction route for years. Even when he went to treatment, which he did for addiction. Which I think was a huge waste of $50,000, because it upped his pathology and made him more dangerous. And then I knew he was going back to “addiction,” even before he got caught again. But the truth was that I didn’t want to be in relationship with a manipulator, a liar, a cheater, a psychologically abusive person.

Nadira: So I filed for divorce.

Anne: Yeah, I hear that all the time. Time and time again, women tell me their story about how to deal with their addict husband and he went to addiction therapy or abuse cessation therapy. It was not only a waste of time and money, but he actually got worse. So it was like paying $50,000 to make him worse. So that is the sixth example of covert emotional abuse, there’s no resolution.

They give you the impression that they’re going to get help, But then they use that proximity to you and their promise to you that they’re going to change as a way to continue to exploit you.

Nadira: It was traumatizing, because here I had all this hope for help. And it ended up being more dangerous for our family in the long run. And yet, I believe the people at treatment had good intentions. I think it may work for someone, I don’t know. But in our case, it really upped his pathology, and he’s that much more dangerous.

Anne: For women wondering if their husband is addicted to this, when do you start to recognize it’s abuse?

Nadira: Well, I’ll be honest, Anne, it’s been listening to your podcast. My therapist recommended your podcast to me. I’ve only been listening to your podcast for six months. So it’s only been the last six months, and it’s been a complete paradigm shift for me. And it’s actually totally changed my life.

This is why: when it was sex addiction, there is this idea that he’s a sick person and needs empathy. It’s just a sick person who has like cancer, for example. And so that’s how we treated it as a family. In the meantime, he’s still doing horrific things to the children. And so it was listening to every one of these podcasts. It really made my whole paradigm shift and go, you know what? It’s not addiction. It’s just an extremely abusive, I believe sociopath is what I believe he is.

He lacks empathy, which allows him to do horrific things to his family and children. Like introduce his children to prostitutes with a smile on his face. On a regular basis, he would become aroused around the children when playing with them. And not when they physically touched each other. What I mean is, like, they weren’t body on body. He would just become aroused.

And that was something I had addressed before he ever got caught in full blown addiction with prostitutes. I had been talking to our pastor, to our counselors, and everyone was like, that’s weird. But you know, they would just tell him, like, get away from the children. But that had been going on for years.

Nadira: Since our two oldest children are four years old and two years old, he would be aroused playing with the children. I never caught child abuse material, but I’d only caught him using exploitative material twice. And they were like four years apart. We had covenant eyes and all that, but he is a master manipulator. He lived a whole double life. I will tell you, everyone who found out our story in our friend group was like, he’s the last person I ever expected. He was always the pastor’s best friend.

Anne: That’s why they’re so dangerous. When I talk to people about how use is abusive. If you catch them, you don’t know what else is going on. They’re not going to tell you.

Nadira: They only admit what they get caught with. Even if it’s “just pornography,” unless you’ve agreed on that in your relationship. That is abuse. That’s lying and coercion. That’s manipulating. I want to read you this quick, from the Domestic Violence Victims Handbook. I picked it up at Children’s Services. So it describes abuse, right? And under the different headings, there’s like coercion, making the victim feel guilty, pushing the victim into decisions, sulking, manipulating children and other family members.

Always insisting on being right, making impossible rules and punishing the victim for breaking them. Talks about emotional withdrawal, economic control. A lot of these behaviors described in this are exactly what I went through and what our children went through and still go through. And yet, he’s not a physically abusive person. He does it all with a smile.

Nadira: I was told, and I know I’m not alone in this. That if I would be more loving and kinder, and there’s a passage in 1 Peter 3 that talks about submitting without a word, That he would be a more loving husband.

The purpose of abuse is to silence your victim. It silenced me. I literally felt like I was dying inside, and he went off the rails. When he got caught, like really caught, we were broke because he had spent all our money on women. So me trying to do whatever it takes to save my marriage hurt me in the long run. Because literally at the end of the day, we were broke. He had destroyed everything. He had abused our children.

If we’re friends and you come to me and say, I’m being abused. I want to help you get help and get to a safe place. But if you come to me and say, you know,there’s a whole different approach. And your safety is not the main concern, which is crazy to me. The main concern is him. Which is just enabling him to, like in our case, up his pathology and become more dangerous.

So your podcast has made a huge difference to me. It’s changed everything, because instead of treating it like addiction and all the ways I was taught. Because I went to Al Anon for years and stuff like that. I am treating it like, no, we are victims, he’s an abuser, and we need to be safe.

Nadira: And we are currently in court over custody issues. He’s lost complete custody of our oldest. We’re trying to free the younger children from the abuse. It’s a totally different perspective, because I don’t treat it like an addiction, and he just needs help. I actually don’t believe there’s help for him. I believe he’s a sociopath and that literally we just need to get safe to a safe place.

Anne: Even if there was some kind of help for him. The point is still the same. If the person isn’t safe, it doesn’t matter if they can become safe or not. They’re not currently safe, period. We need to protect ourselves. With your ex, I tend to agree with you. He’s never going to change, but if he could, hypothetically, it would not matter.

We still need to protect ourselves, because he’s not safe. That is the most fundamental thing that most people don’t understand. They think if somebody can become safe, we don’t need to protect ourselves. And instead, we need to be patient, kind, and loving. And I’m like, no, no, no, no. It doesn’t matter if they can change or not. That’s not the issue. The issue is I need to protect myself now because they’re not safe now, period.

And that’s why I wrote the Living Free Strategies, because they give women enough space to observe. To see, am I safe now? And then, it also teaches women strategies to protect themselves. To get more information about that, click on this link.

Anne: In your case, you filed for divorce to protect yourself. And I’m so sorry it’s still a struggle to keep your children safe. That is such a common problem.

Anne: After what you’ve been through. Knowing what you know now, what insights could you share with women in your same situation?

Nadira: My faith had a lot to do, I believe, with a lot of the decisions I made. And God does not value marriage over my relationship with God. And that seems like a very obvious point. But I kept feeling like the counsel I received from pastors and lay people was that I needed to do whatever it takes, including extreme abuse, to stay married and keep a family together.

And yet, my children endured more abuse because I was trying to please God in that way. And marriage in many ways in some churches or communities of faith is held above a woman and children’s safety, emotional and mental well-being. Because, you know, that kind of abuse long term, I got to really desperate places.

I got to places where I didn’t want to live anymore. It took me to those places. I believe everything happens for a reason. But I can’t imagine what my life would have been like if I would have gotten out of that abuse a long time ago.

The hard thing though is that Sodom and Gomorrah looked evil, and so did the Egyptians, right? But in our case, he looked, like literally, the best guy ever.

Nadira: The thing that’s discounted or not talked about a ton, and you do a good job of talking about it here. Is, yeah, okay, let’s say he is just looking at it behind your back, lying to you and coercing and manipulating you. Well, what are the effects of that on the family? It doesn’t happen in a black hole by itself. It’s not an isolated event. It affects how he treats you and the children. It affects how he sees you and the children.

And It affects so many areas of your life, your time, your money, it’s not an isolated thing. It affects everyone. My ex-husband getting aroused around our children. And he would grab our boy’s testicles. I told counselors, and guess what? There’s not been one report about it. No one’s done anything about it. He’s told them because when he “was in recovery,” all that was out in the open. I mean, we probably told ten therapists. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Milton Magnus model. We did that too.

Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry. We’ve heard horror stories here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery from women talking about addiction therapists. But we’ve also heard horror stories from abuse recovery therapists as well.

Nadira: Well, one of the reasons you need to get safe right now, I’ve learned from you, is that when he is abusive, there’s so much that you don’t even realize is covert emotional abuse. Because it’s all foggy. In my opinion, you need separation so you can begin to see more clearly.

Nadira: Like with children who have been abused, let’s say it is a father, uncle or grandfather, like a relative. That maybe the family wants them to see eventually again. They’ll advise the parents, like, that the child needs to not be in a relationship with that person for at least a year. They need to literally get physically away from the abuser. So they can get clear on what happened.

I still can’t see clearly what’s going on. I mean, believe it or not, in the horrors of our story, I still wanted the marriage and a family. Because there are pieces that I love. After all, I married him, right?

Anne: Me too. No woman wants a divorce.

Nadira: But then addiction treatment made all these promises and hopes. And then my ex-husband was like a star treatment performer, so I had all this hope too. I’m well versed in addiction, because we’ve had so many experts that did so many models. And we’ve used polygraphs. We went to a really reputable treatment center, et cetera, et cetera. And you know, the whole thing about addiction is that he’s sort of a victim himself of his compulsive behavior and can’t stop.

We don’t ever put that same label on a domestic violence person. In other words, we don’t say to someone who physically abuses their family members, oh, well, you can’t stop and it’s compulsive. You don’t have the power to stop that. We expect them to stop that behavior. Or they will go to jail.

Nadira: With addiction, we don’t expect them to necessarily stop. There’s a lot of empathy and a lot of just like, well, do your best and you know, keep coming back. But we don’t put that same kind of pressure on addiction. We treat it as a addiction, that it’s a problem that they’re powerless over. However, if it’s domestic abuse, it’s completely different. I think there’s a huge disconnect.

Anne: Yeah, at the beginning, you read a brochure from a domestic violence shelter outlining these behaviors. So there’s a huge disconnect between the addiction industrial complex and abuse experts, because the addiction industrial complex does not recognize it as abuse. And then one of the reasons for that disconnect, apart from the fact that they know squat about abuse, is that abusers are manipulative.

And when they get caught. They have a “reason” for why they did it. They say things like I’m so broken, or I was abused as a kid. We all know someone who was abused as a kid, and they’re not an abuser. It is a lie that it caused him to be abusive. He chose to be abusive. And the addiction industry has decided to take these lies at face value. And they’ve made an entire industry around it. I mean, you and I felt shame. We felt a ton of shame.

But we didn’t abuse our own children. There are no excuses for this. They are too unsafe for their wife and children, the end. Like it does not have to be this complicated. It is just abuse. And he hides it because it’s covert emotional abuse.

Nadira: It doesn’t have to be so complicated. He lied to me. He manipulated, and it affected our whole lives. I mean, it’s totally affected our socioeconomic status. Everything’s changed in our life, and our children have been abused. And yet, he’s considered a addict, not an abuser.

Anne: And that’s wrong. That’s why I started podcasting. And that’s why I’m on this mission. I want to educate women about abuse. If you’re in a relationship with an active user, he is abusive. And you are a victim of his abuse. I’ve interviewed so many women, and they tell me over and over again, the behaviors they are experiencing. They’re all things that are easily identifiable as abuse by abuse experts.

And after interviewing all these women over the years, I know personally that the addiction model is not protecting victims of abuse. It is not.

Nadira: Well, if I had your podcast 10 years ago, I would have had tools to say, no, this is not about he said, she said. Or how do we love each other better? Or the five love languages or any of that. I married an abuser. I don’t know about you, but I grew up thinking, if you’re married to an abusive man, he hits you and yells at you. But mine’s the most subversive type. If you’re a listener and you can relate to me in that. You know, he didn’t really smack me around. I have no bruises or broken fingers. He didn’t yell at me.

Nadira: He was aggressive and argumentative. He lied to me, manipulated and coerced me. He told me at one point, true story, that he was always four steps ahead of me. Four, think about that. Think about being four steps ahead of someone. They do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this.

That’s insane, if I had that, I could have identified it. Because again, I was married to Mr. Nice Guy, Mr. I have a smile on my face while I’m getting aroused with the children. The effects on our children and family have been grotesque. It’s really bad, right?

Anne: Yeah, it’s horrific. You have been through so much. Not just his abuse, but all the abuse from the therapists who were not helping. And clergy who were not protecting you. I’m so sorry. I’m so glad that you found my podcast.

Nadira: So this has been monumental for me. Because we spent thousands of dollars, tons of time, and just every resource trying to help my ex-husband recover from addiction. It was the wrong path, honestly. But with that, your podcast and listening to the guests on your podcast have helped me wake up to this is just an abusive person. And to treat the whole thing from a different perspective.

One of the things about your podcast, you know, it’s called Betraya Trauma Recovery. So I’ve recommended it to several friends who have been abused. But everyone thinks it’s about just betrayal, right? And I tell everyone it’s not, but that’s the thing. I think about it a lot, by the way.

Nadira: Pornography, you know, is it freedom of choice or just abuse? Because that’s the big thing about it. People say it’s a first amendment thing, right? Like it’s freedom of speech. But if everybody came together, you and everybody came together. And talked about, in our culture, we’re allowing this abusive, destructive, national health crisis. We literally have a national health crisis on our hands. The masses aren’t educated.

Anne: Everywhere I go, I say it is an abuse issue. It’s not a first amendment rights issue. or an addiction issue. It’s not a sex issue. It is an abuse issue. It always needs to be addressed from an abuse perspective. When I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery in my area, all the women dealing with their husband’s use were labeled as having betrayal trauma.

And so part of what I wanted to do in labeling this podcast and the organization Betrayal Trauma Recovery was take that term and turn it into what it really is. We are healing from abuse. So I’m trying to make the term mean what it should mean. Which is when you are recovering from betrayal trauma, you are recovering from abuse. And the reason you’re recovering from abuse is because any betrayal of this type is abuse.

Anne: It could be called abuse recovery. But so many people right now don’t see it as abuse. And so instead, they say, Oh, she’s suffering from betrayal trauma. Then they go down the addiction route. And I wanted to be like, anyone looking for stuff on betrayal trauma, or going down the addiction route, I wanted them to find this podcast. So that they could get the truth, instead of spending years and hundreds of thousands of dollars going down the wrong path.

So I wanted to make Betrayal Trauma Recovery the place where any woman emotionally or psychologically abused. Or the victim of coercion could come and get the help she needed. Thank you for sharing your story today. We appreciate your insights.

Are you asking yourself, “Is my husband hiding money?” If you suspect he might be keeping secrets, including financial ones, it’s important to recognize the signs. From sneaky spending habits to secret accounts, there are common tactics some use to hide things from their partners. This quiz will help you uncover if he’s lying in general, giving you the insight you need to determine whether money is part of the equation.

Is your husband secretive about finances? Does he avoid discussing expenses or where he is? Is it hard for you to get clear answers about what he is doing? Do you notice unusual transactions or missing funds? Financial dishonesty in marriage is a form of domestic abuse, because the intent is to control information and steal a wife’s power and agency. His actions could even be fraudulent, posing harm to others and implicating you.

If you suspect your husband is hiding money or lying to you about finances or anything else, keep a journal of your suspicions and conversations. When it comes to finances, it’s important to carefully examine bank statements, credit card bills, and other financial documents in order to identify any inconsistencies. Comparing your husband’s behavior and your accounts can help you understand what’s really going on.

If you believe your husband is hiding money from you or someone else, it’s crucial not to discuss it. After all, if he is dishonest, he’s already aware of his actions, and raising the issue could backfire. It may alert him to your concerns and lead to more calculated attempts to deceive you and others. Proceed carefully to protect yourself.

To see what’s going on without talking to him, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop will give you thought, communication, and boundary strategies to determine what’s going on. Without putting yourself at risk for his continued lies and manipulation.

It’s important to recognize that hiding money or lying about finances isn’t just about secrecy; rather, it’s about control. In fact, financial abuse is a serious form of domestic abuse, as it limits your independence and freedom. If your husband uses finances to manipulate or control you, know that you’re not at fault, and there are resources available to help you.

We have daily, online Group Sessions where women can talk about their suspicions and learn what to do to protect themselves. Check out the Group Session schedule. We’d love to see you in a session TODAY.

Anne: I have Victoria Ellen on today’s episode. A Hulu show called Scam Goddess highlighted her story in season one, episode six. The Royal Racket. Although Victoria looks like a successful career woman, she led a difficult life. Behind the scenes, she spent more than a decade relentlessly pursuing justice for her children in a battle that led to the Ohio Supreme Court and beyond. Her husband lied about everything, including hiding money and committing fraud.

She started as a divorced single mother struggling to get by after escaping an abusive man. She and her children spent years in therapy to overcome the trauma they endured. After traveling that bumpy road, Victoria became an award winning business woman, a happily married wife and a proud mother to two thriving college students. She’s here to share some of her story. Welcome, Victoria.

Victoria Ellen: Thank you, Anne. Thank you so much for having me.

Anne: So you wrote your experience in your book, Painting in the Rain, A True Story of Trickery and Triumph. How courageous of you to put your story to paper. In fact, you have a Hulu episode about your story, Scam Goddess, season one, episode six. The Royal Racket is the episode name. Can you talk about why you wanted to share your story?

Victoria Ellen: Yes, you know, I just wanted to help other people. I had struggled for years, felt alone. And I really didn’t know which way to turn. I hoped that if I shared my memoir, perhaps I could help others struggling through their journey to freedom.

Victoria Ellen: When I first met my ex-husband, I was very young. I was 19 years old, very impressionable and he was 20. So we were just young and in love. He was Mr. Charisma, liked by everyone, fun, outgoing and seemed to have the world by the tail. Both of us participated in church.

My world was school, church and family all growing up. It didn’t change once I met him, and I would say now looking back, he had cult like behavior. He started his own cult after I divorced him, but you know, early on everything was happy go lucky. Really, he just swept me off my feet with the love bombing. And how wonderful he would treat me. And how God told him I would be his wife.

Anne: When did you start to notice if something felt off? And how did you define it at the time, not knowing what you were dealing with? Did you wonder,” is my husband hiding money along with other things?”

Victoria Ellen: Actually my mother started seeing some red flags. She was very concerned for me. The controlling behavior started early on, lots of secrets. But I had never been in a serious relationship like this. And so, I wasn’t thinking, Oh my, these are big red flags. I was just thinking like, oh, this is new. And there was a lot of emotion tied around it.

Because I’m white, I’m a Caucasian woman. And he is an African American man. I was raised in a rural area in Ohio in the 90s. And even then, you didn’t see a lot of biracial interracial dating. So, many people had opinions about that.

Victoria Ellen: And I wasn’t sure if people were really genuinely concerned about me, if my red flags were valid, or if it was all rubbish. Because he was black, I was white, and the rest is left out there for people to make their own story about. But you know, I was completely under the spell. I drank the poison and in full blown deception land. Is my husband hiding money? yes, and other things. And didn’t listen to anyone, unfortunately.

I ended up pregnant while we were dating, and I pulled away from him during my second trimester. Because the first trimester seemed like a whirlwind, and I really couldn’t think. I had everyone telling me what I should do with my life. I had no idea what I should do with my life. And so I tried to take a moment to step away and get clear. I started thinking like, this isn’t normal. This isn’t right. There are many things here that are concerning to me.

But he started slowly working his way back. He sent gifts and cards, how much he wanted to see the ultrasounds, and check on the baby. It looked like oh, I just want to take care of you and the baby. And I don’t want you to worry about anything. I don’t want you to have to work or do anything outside the home. I just want you to stay with our child. And it all seemed, like, oh, this is the wholesome, American family dream.

Like we’re going to get married, have a family, and live happily ever after. So, I let him back in, in the last trimester, and he quickly whisked me off to get married.

Victoria Ellen: Within days of being married, I realized I had made the wrong decision. He was extremely controlling. He controlled every area of my life. I was not allowed to speak on the phone with my family, without supervision from him. I wasn’t allowed to leave the home. My keys were often hidden. I couldn’t hop in the car and go somewhere.

My circle was very small. He controlled every area of my life down to what I ate. Whether I could open the drapes on the windows and just let some sunshine in. Really disgusting, despicable behavior. My last ditch effort was to go to our pastor and ask her to meet with us, because I was planning on an escape. I just didn’t know how to do it and I thought maybe she could help us.

We were in financial shambles, and the church helped us dig our way out. I still wasn’t thinking, “is my husband hiding money?” It was gone. They helped with a month or two of back rent, electricity and water, so we could have everything turned back on. However, he did not like the fact that I, you know, ousted him.

Anne: Oh, I am so sorry. It’s so hard to go for help, and it makes things worse, you know? For instance, everyone will tell a victim that intensive couple therapy will help, or clergy can help him see the light, so to speak. And even if he does change his behavior, she’ll later discover it was just more lies.The Living Free workshop talks about what to do to get help.

Victoria Ellen: Absolutely.

Anne: And why it’s so important to follow those strategies to keep yourself safe.

Anne: Did you discover any other abusive behavior?

Victoria Ellen: Yeah. So exploitative content was definitely an issue in our marriage. He was a bodybuilder. And he ended up doing some air quotes, “modeling” with soft pornography. And of course, when I called him out on it, I was “crazy and insecure.” And with the abuse, of course, mental, emotional, and physical abuse, check all the boxes. Including, is my husband hiding money? As well, my son started displaying signs of sexual abuse as a 2-year-old, and I was pregnant with our second child.

And I’m sad to say that the justice system needs huge, massive reform. I was involved in a custody battle initially for three and a half years. As a single mother, with those two children fighting relentlessly to protect them because they were being abused. And the judge was clearly swayed in his favor. She seemed to have a personal affection for him, which was odd in our case, and I was not able to get her moved off of it.

He was gone for about 10 years after that initial 3. 5 years in litigation with the custody and the courts. When he came back, he wanted to reestablish parenting time. This started the next seven years of litigation. So we were involved in three different court cases. One, I represented myself as my own attorney in domestic relations court. A second case where my current husband had filed for adoption of the children. My husband won at the local level. My ex-husband appealed it.

Victoria Ellen: It went to the 12th district court of appeals. My husband won the right to adopt again at the 12th district court of appeals. My ex-husband appealed it again. Now in the Supreme Court of Ohio, they take 7 percent of the cases, okay? So 93 percent of the time your case will not get taken. We thought those odds were pretty darn good. But my story is so crazy. They ended up taking the case and ended up ruling again in favor of my husband to adopt the children.

They actually wrote new case law in the State of Ohio, specifically regarding this case. The third case we had was a two week federal trial. I worked with the Secret Service and U.S. District attorneys to bring justice to my ex-husband. So we had three court cases going for seven years. It was arduous, to say the least. I was sentenced to jail because my children refused to visit with their father, who was their abuser.

I had children’s services investigations and police reports. Detectives investigated and interviewed the children, and we still could not get the justice system to do what was right. This sheds a little light on why I am so adamant about bringing light to what happens in the court system and why we need reform. I mean, 10 years in litigation, it took a toll on all of us. I think a lot of people operate out of fear.

Because the courts tell them, you’re going to go to jail, and we’re going to take the kids away from you. So it does cause you to think you have to send your children to do these visits or else.

Victoria Ellen: And I was at a point where my children’s well-being was paramount. I would be one of those people who left the country, shaved my head, took on a new alias and started a new life. Because I refused to send my children back into the lion’s den with their perpetrators. My son had six abuse perpetrators by the time he was six years old.

Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry.

Victoria Ellen: Once they articulated who their perpetrators were, they were old enough to tell investigators who it was and explain in detail what had been happening to them. The system is broken. I knew it was broken, and that’s why we were tied up for so long, because I refused to give up. My ex-husband relentlessly used the court system to drive me through the mud.

Financially drain me, emotionally drain me to force me to sit in a courtroom and look at him when I didn’t want anything to do with him. It was sick. And we all know this now. I believe the court system needs to do something drastic. I don’t know what type of revolution we need. But these judges and magistrates need more education on narcissism, coercive control, manipulation and the effects of it.

Not only on the ex, the person raising these children, but also on the children, they’re going to grow up someday. I hope they could be successful adults and contribute positively to society. But when they’re relentlessly dragged through the mud, year after year, it’s hard to raise healthy, happy adults.

Anne: Yeah that’s the thing about divorcing a narcissist they then can like abuse by the justice system. They can use the justice system to abuse you. Because you shouldn’t even have to be there. You’re just trying to protect your kids. The fact that you’re dragged in and have to pay money to defend against nothing. Because you didn’t do anything is crazy. It’s so expensive and time consuming.

Having been through it myself, it is maddening that the courts can upend people’s lives in this way. Just because someone is not in prison does not mean they’re an appropriate parent.

Victoria Ellen: Correct, absolutely, it seems like nothing matters. It doesn’t matter if you abuse your child, if you don’t pay child support, if you’re mentally abusive, physically abusive, check all the boxes. It doesn’t matter. The magistrate said to me, even bad parents get to see their kids. I mean, what an indictment on the judicial system.

Anne: Exactly, if it were a stranger, that stranger may be put in jail. But at the very least, no one would want that child to be in proximity to that stranger. At this point, did you also start questioning, “is my husband hiding money?”

Victoria Ellen:My husband and I were just day and night doing recon online. Trying to find any lead that we could regarding the life of my ex husband and what he might be up to. I knew he had picked up three felonies for fraud in previous years. But we couldn’t find anything on him, not where he was working. He drove cars not registered to him. Now, I’m thinking, is my husband hiding money? Evidence showed he was.

Victoria Ellen: He was driving luxurious cars, flashing a lot of expensive jewelry, things that would lead you to believe he was financially sound or successful in some people’s minds. So we just started trying to figure it out. We kept coming up empty. And one day I reached out to one of the victims in his first court case on fraud, where he has three felonies. And they told me that my ex husband used aliases. That he was not only a pastor now, but also posing as a prince of Ghana, Africa.

Anne: Wow.

Victoria Ellen: So I used all these aliases in Google. It was like a magic trick. His face started popping up everywhere. I started finding all these shell companies that he was operating. These businesses were under this magic key. And then I started gathering as much evidence as possible. Finally, I knocked on enough doors and went to enough people. I put together a file and filed a motion for a new child support order. Is my husband hiding money? I found that was true.

I was the only person with financial access, because I had two children with him previously. So this was another way for us to keep pressure on him. We had been in litigation at this point, like 5, 6 years. With all this nonsense, we were running out of money. It was outrageous. So I’d been in court long enough that I could fumble my way through hold my own.

My husband convinced me to be my own attorney. And so I went to court and had an exhibit book. I worked through that exhibit book for an hour and 40 minutes. I had my ex-husband on cross examination.

Victoria Ellen: If you know anything about someone with narcissistic personality disorder, they love to talk about themselves. So I have a huge exhibit book full of pictures and documents of my ex-husband. He just kept flipping through it and was so excited to talk about all this and go through the exhibit books. He truly believed this plan and strategy he’d hatched, that this life he lived for seven years, was foolproof. Like, “nobody’s going to catch me.”

I’m above the law. I’ll never be held accountable for anything. Everybody believes I’m a prince, prophet, pastor, and CEO, COO. This thing is like Fort Knox, it’s locked up tight. Like no one can catch me. And that conceited, arrogant attitude of I’m above everyone, and everything, is the thing that actually helped us win that case. Because he thought he couldn’t be exposed. And he was exposing himself for an hour and 40 minutes. Is my husband hiding money? He was.

I literally had documentation of these businesses that he started in Ohio, and he signed them Prince Daryl Adepo. So he thought I’ll just use that. It says I’m a prince, a descendant of royalty in Africa. So I can just continue operating like this. But from the prior crime he had committed, he wasn’t even allowed to have a Series 6 or a Series 7, it’s a license. Financial advisors and investment brokers, would have those types of licensures, and he was posing as an investment broker.

You can’t even get that if you are a convicted felon. I mean, he’s a pastor of a church now, which is just laughable.

Victoria Ellen: He claims to be a prophet, and he claims he’s the CEO and COO. And he’s a prince. So he’s got all this going on, and people are giving him money. So he’s getting the money from the church. And then he’s getting the money from the people that think that they’re investing in his gold mine in Africa that doesn’t even exist. They’re giving him their 401k. They’re selling their house or they’re taking out equity lines of credit against their house to give him money.

Because he’s promising a 30 percent return. That’s where the Ponzi scheme comes in. He’s got all this money, and that’s where all the flashy cars, the Rolexes, the diamond rings, and all the things come from. It’s like, oh, you’re stealing, you’re a thief and an imposter. That makes sense. Okay, now I get it, you didn’t earn any of this. So I ordered the transcripts, and I took the file I had been working on for five years, and I hand delivered them to the feds.

And, they indicted him nine months later on 16 federal charges. Fraud, conspiracy, mail fraud, wire fraud, everything to do with fraud you could possibly imagine. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, and other lies. So it was our mission to expose him. He’s not safe. The lifestyle he lived was absurd.

And the fact that he even pretended he wanted time with these children was laughable, honestly, Because he didn’t want anything to do with the children. He wanted to get to me. The children would be there for visits, and he wouldn’t spend time with them. Because they wouldn’t leave with him.

Victoria Ellen: Any other father with children sitting in front of them for a visit would sit at the table and have a conversation with their children. He did not do that. If the children were going to get in the car and leave with him, he didn’t want anything to do with them. He would say, “I’ll see your mom in court.” So it’s like, this doesn’t have anything to do about reestablishing a relationship with your children. It has to do with control and manipulation.

Anne: Wow, that’s amazing that you got that evidence on, your husband, who was hiding money and a lot more and turned it into the feds.

Victoria Ellen: So this is incredible. We were in a trial for two weeks, which is unheard of, because generally defendants know they are caught. They know they don’t have a case, and it’s pretty much closed book. It’s like you’re guilty, plead guilty, and here’s your sentence, you’re done. So the fact that this case even went to a trial is unheard of. This was on the tail end of COVID. There were 17 victims and witnesses through those two weeks. The jury found him guilty of 10 of the 16 charges.

The U.S. district attorneys dropped three charges. So he was guilty of 10 charges. And I was able to speak at the sentencing hearing. The U.S. district attorneys asked me if I would be willing to say something, and there was also another victim that spoke that day. After that, the judge said he was considering an upward departure, and the rules are a little different in the federal court system. So there are specific time frames assigned to certain crimes.

Victoria Ellen: So, if you commit fraud, you’re supposed to get X amount of time. If you have priors, there’s this formula they use. Basically to generate how long they think you should go to prison. Well, the U.S. district attorneys were requesting 10 to 14 years for the crimes committed. Of course, the defendant’s attorney claimed he shouldn’t get any time. Because how could he pay back all his victims, these hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, lots of it.

Anne: Oh, if he was in jail. How could he defraud other people to pay for the other people he defrauded?

Victoria Ellen: Yeah, exactly. He stole $250, 000 from one man during the first case. And he never paid him back, and he continued to steal from people. And never did a day in jail for that either. So you know, this isn’t going to happen. So the judge says, I’m looking at an upward departure. Which means that the defendant should get 10 to 14 years. I’m considering going above that, because the crimes are so heinous and he is so despicable.

You should have seen the secret service and federal marshals that lined up in the gallery that day to watch the circus take place. Him on the stand doubling down the fact that he was a prince, that he had a gold mine in Africa. And he really was going to pay back all his friends. They’re not victims, they’re his friends. It was wild. The judge literally threw the book at him and sentenced him to 20 years in federal prison.

Anne: Wow, oh, I bet you felt so relieved.

Victoria Ellen: It was surreal, I couldn’t believe it.

Victoria Ellen: For the 20 years we had fought him, he got 20 years in federal prison. And I just felt like it was a year for every year that we had been to hell and back with him. And exposed him, is my husband hiding money? Definitely.

Anne: Yeah, can you talk about the difference in your experience with the criminal court and the civil court? Women can get protective orders. Sometimes it’s difficult to get a protective order, but it’s not as hard, I would say, to get a protective order as it is to protect your children from the abuser. Police sometimes follow up on protective order violations or fraud, but in the civil court with custody.

There is nothing, it feels like, that anybody can do to protect children from abuse. So, can you talk about the difference between those two types of courts?

Victoria Ellen: Domestic relations court fails miserably when it comes to protecting children. And they continued to fail us year after year until my children were emancipated. They never did come through, ever. Not one time. For either child. It’s just very sad. I haven’t been involved with criminal courts at a local level. I’ve only been involved with the feds. They were serious about the law, and they weren’t listening to the lies, and were very black and white.

And domestic relations courts are trying to take into account all these factors. And I would just encourage anybody in the court system to document everything. I didn’t have phone conversations with him. Everything was via text message because text messages are admissible for court evidence. So are emails, and also recordings or videos.

Victoria Ellen: If you can document these things, people will start reading between the lines and see that this person isn’t who they are portraying themselves to be. Because they are creating their own reality. They’re just telling the story. I mean, my ex-husband literally created this life that was not real, did not exist, and doubled down on it. And all the lies. Is my husband hiding money? Yes.

And now he’s spending 20 years in federal prison. Because he tried to convince everybody that the lie was the truth. Unfortunately, everybody doesn’t have the same opportunity that I had at the federal level.

Anne: They’re just dealing with local courts, and it can be a daunting task to continuously go to court over and over again and not have your voice heard. Yeah, it’s very discouraging. Also, I talk to many victims who’ve documented everything. They have proof, and that hasn’t swayed the courts either. I had 40 pages of documentation, and it didn’t do anything. So strategy is so important, especially if you’re wondering “is my husband hiding money?”

That’s why I put the strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Again, you can get more information by clicking this link. It will teach you how to do it step by step, so that you have the documentation, but also how to use it strategically. For example, I learned in my case that those 40 pages, the guardian ad litem actually used it as proof that I tried to hurt my ex. Because what other loving co-parent would document 40 pages of child abuse against their co-parent?

Victoria-Ellen: Oh my oh, that’s what I’m talking about. It’s maddening, it’s maddening. It’s enough to send you over the edge. I’m not kidding, it’s crazy.

Anne: I’ve had a lot of times, like yelling and screaming in my own house by myself, not in court, jumping up and down. So, how can this be happening? None of this is even sensical in any way shape or form. And it’s so frustrating. Your story can help bring this to light. All women listening to this podcast are interested in reforms in the justice system to ensure that we can protect children from abuse. I’m so glad you’re safe now. You are a warrior. You’re amazing.

Victoria Ellen: Thank you, thank you. Well, it takes one to know one, and you know, we just have to bind together. We can’t stand by and watch evil prevail.

Anne: That’s what it is, like legit evil. They know what they’re doing and doing it on purpose. In fact, they know they’re hurting people and don’t care.

Victoria Ellen: They don’t care, no. Well, when you lack empathy and compassion, what else is there? Just to wreck people’s lives? What you’re doing is making a huge difference, Anne. I appreciate you standing in the gap and helping educate others. Because I didn’t have anything like this when I left 25 years ago. Thank you for fighting the good fight.

Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story.

Victoria Ellen: Thank you so much for having me.

“Am I paranoid? Why do I feel like my husband is cheating on me?”

Laurie Hall, author of An Affair of the Mind, couldn’t prove her husband was cheating. But no matter how hard she tried, the feeling of dread wouldn’t go away. Laurie shares her powerful story.

If you feel dread about your husband, it would be that you’re experiencing one or more of the 19 types of emotional abuse. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out.

There are behavioral patterns that can indicate your husband is cheating, including:

However, it’s important to understand that for many women, including Laurie, there are NO signs of infidelity, at least for a time. Just a feeling that something is “off”.

Rather than exert emotional energy to find definitive proof, we suggest women enroll in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, which will help you determine your husband’s character step by step, without exposing you to more lies or manipulation.

Please seek support as you work through difficult feelings, including the dread that your husband is cheating on you. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are a safe space for you to talk through your situation, ask questions, and receive the validation and compassion that you deserve.

Anne: Today, I have Laurie Hall with me. She’s the author of An Affair of the Mind. She wrote the first book about addiction written from the perspective of the partner. And it broke ground in a world that saw the partner as codependent and just as sick, in her own way, as the addict, which we know isn’t true.

And Laurie knew wasn’t true, even then. Laurie refused to accept that view and advocated for partners. She said they were betrayed and traumatized, when they feel like their husband is cheating.

Laurie you talk about how prayer helped you discover your husband’s addiction. Can you talk about that?

Laurie: Yes, this is a great place to start the discussion of how this whole issue can lead to a spiritual crisis. Because I knew there were problems in my marriage, I didn’t know what I was dealing with.

My ex-husband grew up in the mission field. He had a White House security clearance when I met him. Everyone who knew him said, Oh, he’s a super nice, squeaky clean guy. So I really thought I was marrying a boy scout, but there was just this sense that something wasn’t right. And I kept trying to figure out what it was.

And I went to my church for help. Because as a young Christian woman, I wanted to know how to do marriage God’s way. They told me I needed to submit more, that I needed to support him more, that I needed to pray for him more and every remedy they gave me. They put me further and further under. At one point, I thought, well, they said you’re too strong. If you were not as strong, he would be stronger.

Laurie: And I just kept thinking, well, wait a minute. I’ve read all the books, become a fascinating woman, a total woman. I’ve become the he’s from Home Depot, she’s from Walmart woman, and nothing was working. And it was still just this sense that something was wrong. I decided to put all the outside advice outside and spend time back in scripture. Which I already was a student of the Bible, but I was reading the Bible based on what other people told me it meant.

So I began to go into the word, and I started to pray. You know Lord, if I’m otherwise minded, Christ Jesus shows me what it is and shows me what’s going on in my marriage. Because I know there’s something, and I don’t know what it is. But I know you know what it is, because you are the God of all truth. So show me what the truth is. I prayed this for years. Part of what happened was that I came to a different understanding.

That I had of who God is before I could even grasp the truth of if my husband is cheating. So I began to see God in a bigger, more empowering, more loving way as I studied the word, and then I decided to start fasting. And so the first time I fasted, I got this impression in my head that was almost like a voice saying to me, there’s three problems in your marriage.

Laurie: The first one is your husband’s taken $350 that doesn’t belong to him. The second is he’s committing adultery. And the third is that he has a lot of pride. At that point, I was like, okay, this is what comes of trying to fast and pray. You’ve now gone completely nuts. Because you’re hearing a voice. I was like, why did you do this to yourself? Because obviously none of that can be true. I married a boy scout, and sure enough, shortly after that, I found out about the $350.

He confessed he had a lot of pride, and that left this little nasty thing in the middle, which was the adultery. And I said, I think you’re committing adultery. And he said, oh no, I would never do that. You’re a horrible person for believing that. Why would you even accuse me of that? You’re probably the one doing it. I continued to pray and seek the Lord. And eventually I started having dreams, and I started having dreams where I would see exactly what was going on.

Then I decided that what I was going to do was accept that this is the truth. Whether I had any evidence. Because my husband hid everything. Even his best friend who worked with him didn’t know what he was doing. I began to journal. I said, I feel like my husband is cheating me. And I don’t know what to do about it, but I’m turning it all over to God.

Laurie: And one day as I was praying, the phone rang and it was a woman I barely knew. She said, God has heard your prayers and seen your tears, and he’s going to heal you. And within …

Anne: Wow.

Laurie: … an hour, there was a phone call from a credit card company I did not know. My husband had a credit card, and there was a past due payment, and that’s how the truth came out that my husband was cheating.

Anne: Wow, I am so impressed. Because I had dreams, nightmares, and I just thought I was crazy. And I have this like super intense sense of dread that I told my husband about. And I was like, I have the worst sense of dread. I think something bad’s going to happen. And then in the same breath, without listening to him or waiting for his response, I said, ah, I must be crazy, right? I just kind of dismissed it. So I am like, so impressed that you were like, no, I will take these dreams and feelings as the truth. That is gutsy.

Laurie: Well, you know, let me back up and tell you how not gutsy I was and what actually forced me to that position. Because just like you, I thought I was going nuts. I actually one day climbed into bed, put the covers over my head, and started running my finger up and down my mouth. Like I said, I am going crazy because part of me says there’s something wrong and this is what it is. And the other part of me doesn’t know how that could possibly be true.

Laurie: And therefore, I’m choosing to ignore what I’ve asked God to show me. And so I’m going to have to take a giant leaf of faith and say, this is the truth, my husband is cheating. If I’m wrong, hey, I’ll own it, but from here on out, I’m not second guessing myself anymore. So I get it, girlfriend. I was there. It was that period when I was going to go crazy that made me say, yes, I’m accepting the truth.

Anne: Your story is so incredible. I mean now, many women have determined their husband’s true character through the steps I teach in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workship. And you can get more information about that by clicking on this link. It will help you determine your husband’s true character. And many women have said they’ve prayed and been led to the Living Free Workshop, and it helped them see the truth of what’s going on.

But back in your day, you didn’t have any resources like Betrayal Trauma Recovery, or anything else. And so you just decided to trust yourself. And that is incredible. That’s one thing that the Living Free Workshop does teach women to do. Like how to get in touch with their sacred internal warning system, so they can discover the truth of their situation.

Laurie: I completely agree with you on that. Can we say it? How awful is it that your worst nightmare is actually true? Okay. I mean, this is not the thing you wake up to and accept. Okay. It’s an awful, awful thing. I mean, the ground drops underneath your feet. On the one hand, you’re happy to know you weren’t nuts.

Laurie: On the other hand, you’re like, I wished I would have been nuts, because this new reality is something I don’t want to deal with, but we are not trained how to live in the spirit. This was a big aha for me, because when I realized I have a body that has senses in it. It has the sense of touch, sight, taste, hearing, smell. And through those senses, I experience the physical world. I have a soul, which allows me to know my internal world, and those senses are my mind, my will, and my emotions. So I shouldn’t ignore that my gut is telling me my husband is cheating.

But I also have a spirit, and it is through my spirit that I know God, and that I experience others in a transcendent way, where deep connects to deep. And this has nothing to do with what I can see with my eyes. But it is an inner knowing that we have, and our spirit senses are conscience, intuition, and communion. And we’re designed to operate from the spirit into the soul and out into the body. So when we intuit something, it is God speaking to us, the absolute truth.

And the idea would be that if we’re operating in a healthy way, we take that information into our mind. And provide instructions for our mind based on what our conscience tells us. This is a good situation, or this is not a good situation. And then the will tells the body what to do in response. And as the body follows these instructions, our emotions are at peace because we’re in integrity.

Laurie: One of the ways we can know that we’re not in integrity. And I don’t mean this in the sense that we’re intentionally doing something we know is wrong, but where we are second guessing our spirit. Because when our mind doesn’t have the facts, we argued, spirit and the mind argue. You know what I mean? It’s like, no, that can’t be true. I have no evidence. Yes, it is true because God sees it as it is, but our mind doesn’t see it. I mean, I only saw exploitative material in our home one time. And we were married for 33 years.

So I had no physical evidence. As you know, this particular addiction, there’s no needle marks, there’s no telltale breath. It’s very easy to hide.

Anne: Yeah.

Laurie: When your emotions are a mess, it is a sign that your spirit is arguing with your soul. Because your soul doesn’t have any facts to back up what your spirit is sensing. And so you’re second guessing yourself. But if you say what I’m sensing, I’m going to accept that as true until proven otherwise. And then start lining your actions up with that, you will find peace in the midst of the storm.

Anne: Wow, this is cool, to accept that you could be right about your husband cheating. I love you.

Laurie: I love you. It only took 20 years to figure that out.

Anne: When did you write your book? What year was it?

Laurie: It came out in 1996.

Anne: 1996, man, I’m just thinking, I know so many women who are your age or older who went through this. And they, of no fault, didn’t know what was going on, didn’t understand it, and were abused for years.

Anne: I am just in awe that you’re part of this generation of women caught in all cultural issues. All the misogynistic things that at the time were common that you couldn’t even see. And you had this head on your shoulders to see this thing straight. You’re like a hero. You’re my Shero.

Good job, way to go. I think many other women saw it, but they didn’t write a book. Many women kind of figured out what was going on. But then it was super scary to speak out about it back then. And it still is now. I mean, sometimes people think I’m crazy. So once you knew about your husband’s cheating, did you go to your church for help? And if you did, what happened?

Laurie: Yes, I did. As a woman of faith, I wanted to handle this God’s way. I can remember saying, what are the rules? What are the rules? What are the rules? And so I went to my church. I entered a buzz saw when I did that. And I was told things like, well, I needed to pray for him. I was the more spiritual and mature and therefore it was my responsibility to pray for my husband.

And then if I would just pray for him and trust God, he would become a man who would stand at the gates. Okay, they quoted proverbs for me. That was my job. To create that in him, I was told I needed to be more available. I was told I had to be more submissive, that no matter what he said or did, I needed to trust God in the middle of all that.

Laurie: I can remember sitting there in my pastor’s office, and I just wanted him to say, adultery is wrong. That’s all I wanted him to say. He didn’t have to give any magic solutions, or I just wanted him to say to me what has happened to you is wrong. And instead, he told me that it was obvious why my husband was doing this, because I was such a strong woman. And he was totally lined up with my husband. I can remember going to a Christian counselor, and my husband had taken some money from one of our children.

And as part of his making amends, he was supposed to apologize and return the money. Just before we went to see the therapist the next time, this child came to me and said, you know, dad still hasn’t dealt with this issue.

And this child was sobbing. I mean, it’s breaking my mother’s heart to see my child suffer like that. So we went to see the therapist, my ex-husband went in first. And when I got in, the therapist was thrilled, because my husband had cooked up this story about how he had gone to the child and apologized, and given the money back, everything was great. I sat there with my mouth open, and I said, no, that’s not what happened. He’s like, What? And I said, no, none of that happened.

This is where the church is so naive. And believe me, I’m not trying to slam Christianity. This man said, well, he wouldn’t lie to me. And what he was saying is that he lies to you because you’re too hard on him. He didn’t believe the my truth, that I knew he was cheating.

Laurie: You’re not on his team. And if you would just be on his team, he wouldn’t need to lie to you. But I’m on his team, and he knows I’m on his team. So he wouldn’t lie to me.

Anne: Like you’re the problem. You caused his lying, right?

Laurie: Exactly, that’s it. I’ve received so many letters, and so many tell similar stories. I’ve had women suicidal because their church disciplined them because they dared to try to get help. Also I’ve had women who were excommunicated. They’re shamed. They’re made to be accountable to another woman in the church for whether they’re properly submitting and praying for their husband. And are they giving their husband it? Because of course, that’s a woman’s responsibility. You know, don’t withhold yourself.

And I want to believe these people are well intentioned, although at some point I began to doubt. Especially when I saw the size of the problem in the leadership of the church, because many, many, many pastors have this issue. They’re so naive about how real life operates that they have this fantasy that if we just do A, B, and C, then everything will be okay. And that marriage is all about roles instead of relationship.

So they teach marriage as roles, and therefore, you know, the husband is ahead of the home. The wife must submit to him. The children must obey the parents. What it does is create dysfunction. Because you don’t learn how to be in a real relationship. When marriage is all about power, who has the most power? There’s no listening, negotiation, conflict resolution, and there’s no way to be truly intimate.

Laurie: How to recognize and celebrate each other’s strengths, and how to support each other in weakness. Because if somebody is weak, if your husband is cheating, especially if they’re at the top, everybody’s going to be scared because they’re vulnerable. Instead of this is a team effort. let’s pool our resources here.

Anne: I always felt like I was on the same team with my husband, my ex now, but that he was always in competition with me.

Yes, I couldn’t understand that. And I thought, well, we’re on the same team. Like I’m trying to solve a problem. Let’s solve it together. But he didn’t like the resolution of the problem if it wasn’t his idea. And then I found him taking credit for the things I had done. Instead of saying, Oh, my wife did this. She’s amazing. He took credit for it himself.

I started to be really bothered. We’re not on a team. Like he sees me as some kind of minion, like to set him up higher and higher. Or the better I look, the better he looks, not the better we look. Does that make sense?

Laurie: It totally does. You can see how that worldview feeds into the narcissism of the addict.

Anne: Yeah.

Laurie: The goal is to be admired, right?

Anne: Right, and the more you love them and forgive them, submit and serve them, and all those things, the more their abusive behaviors get them what they want. The reason why men use these abusive behaviors, manipulation, lying, etc., is because they get stuff out of it. If they didn’t get anything out of it, they wouldn’t do it.

Anne: Number one, and number two, unless they stop getting something out of it, they’re not going to stop.

Laurie: That’s right.

Anne: Yeah, it’s working for them. So the whole love forgiveness service type stuff, which are all wonderful values. But the abuser just continues to get all the things they want, and they have none of the accountability. In fact, the women are held accountable, like what you said.

Laurie: Yes, and that’s a sad thing. You know, these women are going into a church with all male leadership. And this is hard to talk about, Anne, because, I mean, my relationship with God is important to me. And I don’t want to needlessly put the church in a bad light. I’m just saying, talking to hundreds of women, and there are some pastors who do a fabulous job, fabulous job of supporting women.

But there are some institutional things that happen in the church. In fact, a Barna group survey showed that 57% of pastors and 64% of youth pastors struggle with exploitative material or have struggled with it. She could actually be talking to somebody who’s husband is also cheating and has the same problem her husband has, and not know it. And it becomes like clubbing baby seals. There are these women are so vulnerable. It just breaks my heart what happens.

Anne: Church leadership further abuses them.

Laurie: Yes.

Anne: Yeah, it is painful and it’s wrong.

Laurie: Yes.

Anne: I’m so excited about the time we’re in right now, though, with the Harvey. Is it Weinstein? Weinstein?

Laurie: Harvey Weinstein.

Anne: I don’t know how to say it, but all these women who are being like, I can speak up. And women who are being taken seriously, and women who before people maybe said they were crazy. Now it’s coming out. No, all the things this “crazy” woman said were true. It’s an exciting time. And it’s exciting, because women are becoming healthier and talking about their husbands cheating.

And that will enable and help the men to become healthier too. Because I envision a time where men are accountable for their behaviors. Where they are responsible and fantastic husbands and fathers. And that is what everyone wants. It’s not like we want like, the demise of the male. We just want,

Laurie: We don’t want that.

Anne: No, we want them to step up to the plate and become men.

Laurie: And we want to be women.

Anne: Yeah.

Laurie: I love the idea of being loved. I love the idea of a close relationship with a strong man. That just makes me feel all kinds of feminine. When I’m with a man with good character, who knows how to treat me. Who I can sense is genuine. Now, genuine, not perfect, because if he’s trying to look like he’s perfect, there’s probably a problem.

Anne: It’s like, oh, scary, scary, yeah.

Laurie: So this is how we grow together. This is the beauty God wants for us. And you’re right. We are living in an exciting time, because the cover is being pulled off of this stuff. And more and more will come out.

Laurie: I believe this is the time where God will pull the cover back and give us opportunities to become who he truly created us to be, which is loving beings. I mean, that is what the whole purpose of being here is. It’s about loving one another. You know, those who love live in God. That’s one of the teachings of scripture. And if we’re not loving each other, we’re not even experiencing God in any real way.

Anne: And if we don’t have integrity, we’re not experiencing God in any real way either. The true, like living our truth, living in the truth, right?

Laurie: Absolutely, you bring up such a fabulous point, because I’ve been going to many church conferences. And I’m listening to pastors say that the way we deal with this issue is that we just draw closer to Jesus. We substitute the pleasure of pornography for the pleasure of being with Jesus. I want to say, okay, hello, hello. We’re talking about the way. We’re talking about the truth, we’re talking about the life. First of all, drawing closer to the Lord is about actually living in truth, as you just so brilliantly said, Anne.

It’s about living in what is true. It’s about, as we know, and rely on the love God has for us, and know that we live in love. Then we’re made complete so that we can love others. That it’s about one another, about being close to others. That’s how we truly express our spirituality. And Jesus even said that. He said, when you feed the hungry or the thirsty or clothe the naked, you’re doing that as if you were doing it to me.

Laurie: This thing about a relationship with God, that is some kind of, I want this to come out right. I’m just starting to see this in a bigger way. It’s almost like they’re teaching to replace the fantasy of exploitative material with the fantasy of an imaginary relationship that happens in your mind. Instead of how we treat each other, how we see God all around us right here, right now, and rejoice in that. Love one another and respect one another. You can’t have this respect if your husband is cheating.

Instead of checking out where I’m having a magical relationship in my head, with someone as a substitute for actually having a real relationship with a real human being. And I hope that doesn’t come across as heretical, but I think it’s key because we’re still teaching men to dissociate.

Anne: Yeah. This also has so much to do with if you should stay married after infidelity.

Laurie: To dissociate, because it all happens in their mind, instead of this place of vulnerability where we’re naked before each other, loving each other, and feeling what it is to be truly loved.

Anne: That’s awesome. You’re very emphatic.

Laurie: I am, I feel it so strongly, because I’m sitting here pounding.

Anne: I love it.

Laurie: It’s about learning how to be in a real intimate relationship, without cheating. That’s where the wholeness is.

Anne: Well, if you just respected him more, if you just loved him more, and if you just did more laundry, right?

Laurie: Oh, I had more sex. Don’t forget that part.

Anne: Yeah, oh, that. There’s a leader in our church that said, I’m gonna hammer this, but he said true religion undefiled before God is helping the poor, the widows, and the orphans.

Anne: And these men, through their actions, which are ungodlike, create widows and orphans. They are leaving their wives, or their wives have to say, you can’t be around us anymore because you’re so unhealthy, and cheating and infidelity are abuse. The opposite would be taking care of a woman, so she does not become an affair widow. Making sure you are a good husband and father, so that you do not leave your children fatherless.

And it is based on action, not your ideal version of what you are like, based on all the scriptures you can quote. Or all the prayers that you can say in church to make you look beautiful. It’s actually what your real relationship is with your wife and with your children.

Laurie: Yes.

Anne: Women who are truly loved and cherished love and cherish their husbands. This is why women search for Christian help for infidelity.

Laurie: Yes, they do.

Anne: They love and cherish their husbands, even when their husbands abuse them.

Laurie: Yes, they do.

Anne: They just want their family to work, you know.

Laurie: In fairness, some women are real horror shows. So, I mean, it’s not all in the men. It’s about this whole thing of, you’re right, faith without works is dead. We can talk a good talk, but how do we walk the walk? The church needs a theology of trauma. That understands that the pursuit of justice is a godly pursuit. And one that allows us to reestablish trust where it’s been broken.

Because a theology of trauma understands that there’s a difference between forgiveness and restoration. And between grace and calling a thing a thing, so that grace can much more abound.

Laurie: Now it says in Isaiah 117, To learn to do right, to seek justice, to defend the oppressed, to take up the cause of the fatherless, and plead the case of the widow. And Anne, you’re so right. We are affair widows. The church is called to be salt and light in matters of justice. And if the church would just do this, if they would just stand for living in truth and support what is true. Then I truly believe we could restore families, because there would be a path forward.

Anne: Yeah, there is no path forward without accountability.

Laurie: No.

Anne: None, no one believes us, when we say I feel like my husband is cheating. Well, I appreciate you coming on today. Thank you so much for being here, Laurie.

Laurie: Oh, thank you, Anne. It’s been a real pleasure to talk with you.

Here are some of the most common scriptures on betrayal. Then I’ll dive into an analysis of betrayal—specifically in the context of a husband betraying his wife, using examples from the scriptures of Judas. Here’s what you need to know If you’ve been betrayed and are turning to scripture for guidance.

Psalm 41:9 (ESV)
Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.

Psalm 55:12–14 (ESV)
For it is not an enemy who taunts me—then I could bear it; it is not an adversary who deals insolently with me—then I could hide from him. But it is you, a man, my equal, my companion, my familiar friend. We used to take sweet counsel together; within God’s house we walked in the throng.

Jeremiah 12:6 (ESV)
For even your brothers and the house of your father, even they have dealt treacherously with you; they are in full cry after you; do not believe them, though they speak friendly words to you.

Luke 22:48 (ESV)
But Jesus said to him, “Judas, would you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?”

Ephesians 6:10–11 (ESV)
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.

Psalm 23:1–4 (ESV)
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want… Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

Psalm 101:7–8 (ESV)
No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes. Morning by morning I will destroy all the wicked in the land.

Matthew 6:14–15 (ESV)
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

James 1:2–5 (ESV)
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness… If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach.

Mark 11:25 (ESV)
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Philippians 4:13 (ESV)
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

John 14:6 (ESV) Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Anne: On today’s episode, we’re gonna go over Bible quotes on betrayal. So these are scriptures on betrayal, most of them scriptures about Judas that will teach us what the Bible says about betrayal, what Christ says about betrayal.

One of my favorite parts of this interview was when we talked about what happened at the Last Supper, especially in the context of betrayal in marriage.

Here’s a preview: Let’s just imagine all the people involved with this. They’re all sitting around the table, and you’re like, he’s gonna betray me. In that moment, what did they tell us?

They told us to pray for him. They told us to go to intensive couple therapy. So in that moment where Judas takes the bread, Christ isn’t like, hold on. Can somebody call a couple therapist. He didn’t say like, “Wait, can you guys, hold on, I’m gonna pray so hard. It’s going to fix Judas and I will come out and he is not gonna betray me anymore.” That does not happen. Instead, what does Christ say in that moment?

But before we get to that part, I need to set the stage.

Anne: And I’ve invited a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re gonna call her Jesse. Welcome Jesse.

Jesse: Hi, thanks for having me.

Anne: Before we go on, BTR is interfaith and inter-paradigm. Hopefully, what we talk about today will apply to you. Everyone is welcome here. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session our team understands betrayal, because it happened to them. Jesse
and I happen to be Christian, so we’re gonna share from our own experience. We’re from different denominations, so we’ve had different thoughts about it over the years.

I invited her specifically to talk about how Jesus dealt with betrayal. Because one morning I was studying bible verses on betrayal and I realized, Jesus was betrayed, by an “intimate partner.” Someone on his side, except Christ knew Judas’ character was not the best. Also the juxtaposition between how Christ dealt with Judas, and how he dealt with the Pharisees and the Sadducees, his known enemies.

Christ obviously had righteous disdain for some people. I mean, I’m sure he loved them in a cosmic way, but he really didn’t like them. He wanted people to know that he didn’t like them. He was very direct and called them vipers. And he threw over the money changers in the temple. He called them thieves. He knew they were exploitative.

Jesse: Yes, I was thinking about what the bible quotes about betrayal, and about Judas and his relationship with Jesus. I read an article that mentioned when the disciples are listed in scripture, they’re typically listed in a consistent order, with Peter, James, John and Matthew almost always listed first. Saying that was an indication of the closeness of the relationship. Judas is rarely listed in that way. He was part of the 12, but he wasn’t part of Jesus’ close knit circle.

Anne: But I guess there were lots of people who wanted to be an apostle. Christ didn’t have to pick Judas as an apostle. He’s definitely closer to Jesus than the average person. There are probably lots of people who were like, “Hey, I wanna ride on Christ’s coattails,” and they weren’t chosen as apostles.

In the context of betrayed women. They’re not necessarily close to their husbands. He lives with them. He goes on family trips, they go to church together, but are they actually close? This is something I feel like women instinctively know is a problem. They know they’re not close, and when they try to repair or remedy it, he just says they are.

Jesse: Right, in my case, I always felt part of my husband’s life. I definitely did the labor of caring for the children, caring for the household, and supporting him in his career. We did not have a life together as an intimate couple. We were roommates. Sometimes we were friends. We did travel a lot and did a lot of fun things together. But we did not have a partnership. I was a part of his life.

Anne: In my study of scriptures on betrayal, I wondered if it was like that with Judas. I wonder if Judas thought Christ was part of his life, not the other way around. Like he wanted to be close to Jesus for his own benefit, but not for the gospel. ‘Cause he’s part of a club. I’m like, I’d love to go to a dinner with 12 people where somebody made me food.

You know, I’m thinking about the last supper. Yeah, I wanna be part of that club. I would say that before I realized my ex was lying to me, we weren’t close. Any time I tried to get close, he would be like, “Of course everything’s fine.”

Jesse: Absolutely, it was almost like we were living in two different realities. And I kept trying to pull him into my reality, which was family and building this life together with mutual interests for the benefit of one another. And he was in a different reality. Where pretty much everyone and everything centered around his life and what he wanted to accomplish. We were all supporting actors in his reality.

Anne: Well, and, your husband won’t stop lying to you, so anytime you say, “Hey. Are we a family?” He’s like, “Yeah, we’re a family. It’s all good.”

Anne: While studying the scriptures on Judas, I began to imagine he might have experienced something similar. Where Christ is like, “Hey, you’re gonna betray me.” And Judas is like, “No, I’m not. Everything’s fine, of course we’re unified.” Speaking of that, let’s talk about the prophecies in the context of betrayal. So we’ve got in the Old Testament in Zechariah, people prophesied that Christ will be betrayed. Now anyone could have betrayed him. He was probably betrayed by more than just Judas. I believe these, I’m gonna say “prophecies”, do I believe in prophecy? Yes.

And didn’t we all do these same prophecies? We’re thinking, if he keeps doing this. Then this will happen. Rather than a prophecy, can we think about it as more of a cause and effect? It’s pretty clear.

If you continue to sext your coworker, you are likely to actually have sex with her eventually. I mean, is that a prophecy or is that this leads to this? As wives beholding our husband’s character. We make these types of, I’m gonna say “prophecies.” But do we make them because it’s set in stone, or are we saying this because we desperately want to avoid it? It’s the second answer, he was betraying him, which is how we knew he would betray him.

If you lie, then you’re going to have an affair, but you’re already lying about your affair. This is what the bible says about cheating husbands. And I’m wondering if that was the case with Christ and Judas, where he’s like, “If you keep doing this, you’re gonna betray me.” But the thing he’s doing is already betraying you.

Jesse: Right, Christ is definitely giving Judas the opportunity to turn from his course of action. Christ knew, and he says it to him in such a way that Judas has an opportunity to change. And that’s what I certainly did with my husband. I would let him know about signs I saw that were gonna be damaging to our marriage. I gave him the opportunity to see what I saw, and he rejected it.

Anne: What these scriptures on betrayal show us is that this man who apparently has something about him that makes Jesus want him as a disciple, he’s worth warning.

There are two ways to go about this. There’s the 12 step way, stay on your side of the street. And then there’s the “Christian” way, pray for him, make sure he is not too stressed out, submit to him, and all that. If you’re being betrayed, it’s your fault in some way or another.

I’m like, no, it’s not because Christ was the most perfect person. But we’re not so bad. Like, the things that we do are totally normal and good. Anyone would do them. Just like we’d say, “If you go on this business trip, something bad’s gonna happen.” If Christ was perfect, giving Judas little indicators did not stop Judas from doing it.

Why would any pastor, any therapist, or anybody out there be like, “Oh, the reason why he had this emotional affair was because you guys aren’t close emotionally.” Like, no, it is actually the opposite. We weren’t close emotionally, because he wasn’t coming to you with his emotions. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne: So from Matthew 26, we learned that this was Judas idea. In Matthew 26 :14, it says, “Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,” so not the other way around. It’s not like the chief priests approached Judas. Judas approached them. In 15, “And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him to you?”

And at that point they’re like, 30 pieces of silver. And then in 16 it says, “And from that time he [as in Judas] sought opportunity to betray him.” So it was intentional. He knew he was doing it.

You know what these passages from the Bible on betrayal don’t say. They don’t say it was because Jesus always placed him last or prioritized Peter, James, and John before him. Nowhere does it imply that Judas betrayed Jesus due to a lack of attention. Instead, the scriptures make it clear—Judas made his choice.

Anne: As far as prophecy goes, Christ says in verse 24, “The Son of man goeth as it is written of him:” So yeah, it’s been predicted I’m going to be captured and killed, but then Christ says, “but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.” Meaning, yes, I’m going to be captured and killed. That is true, but you don’t have to do it. Judas didn’t have to do it. Somebody else would’ve done it. There were many people who hated Jesus at this time.

This like, well, “life is full of trials.” Sure, but does your husband have to be the one that causes all your trials? Does your husband have to be the one that makes things difficult? No, he doesn’t. He could make different choices.

I don’t have this so much in my faith, but I hear from others that there’s this like sense that the devil made you do it, so it’s like the devil’s fault when it’s the opposite. The devil didn’t enter into Judas until after he’d made the deal, until after he’d taken action. So does the devil become involved if you’re Christian? I believe yes, from my study of the Bible verses on betrayal.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: But only after you make the choice. Satan doesn’t make you do anything.

Jesse: In my faith tradition. In recent years, more of a charismatic tradition. I wouldn’t say this is a primary belief in some circles, but there is the tendency to believe that there’s demonic activity to a significant level involved when people engage in destructive activity. Like we know, the devil steals, kills, and destroys.

So anything that fits in that type of behavior gets labeled as demonic. It’s my opinion, at this point, that gets overused as an excuse: the devil made me do it. This person habitually cheats on their spouse or engages in destructive behaviors. So there’s a tendency to label that person as having a demon that’s “making them do this.” I don’t believe that today. You’re making those choices of your own free will.

Anne: Yeah, in John 6:70-71, one of the Bible quotes on betrayal, Christ says Judas is a devil.

Jesse: Wow, interesting.

Anne: If someone is wicked or they are evil, who is the devil? The person doing it.

Jesse: Yeah.

Anne: So rather than the devil made me do it. I am doing the bad thing. Like I am wicked. I am the evil one.

Jesse: I’m doing this, yes.

Anne: Because if he wasn’t doing that bad thing, would the devil be involved? No, and who is the devil in that scenario? Not that he’s the devil with a capital D, but Christ himself calls people wicked, evil. He says about Judas, “one of you is a devil?” Not one of you is controlled by the devil or is possessed by the devil. One of you is.

Jesse: Is, it’s pretty blunt.

Anne: These men we’re married to, we can tell something isn’t right. We might not know what it is, because they’re lying to us, they’re manipulating us. Or maybe we know what it is. But even when we try to talk to them about it, we can’t figure out what’s going on. Because they lie. Christ is like, “Hey, one of you will betray me.” And Judas said, “Master, is it I?” He knows he’s already betrayed him. He knows he’s already made a deal with the head of the religion at the time.

Christ was a rebel. He was going against the head of all of the religious authorities at the time. So, Judas is saying, “Is it me?” So you take your concerns to your husband and say, “I’m really concerned. Are you betraying me?”

“Me, me? Am I betraying you?” When he is betraying you. So, you’re not gonna get a straight answer. Christ was perfect, and Judas lied to him. So, if any pastor or therapist tells you he’s lying to you because he doesn’t feel safe enough to tell you the truth, you can just be like, that’s just not true. Judas lies to Jesus’s face and acts like he doesn’t know if he’s gonna betray Jesus or not. When he already has betrayed him, and he’s planning on betraying him still, and the plan is in the works.

Now, Jesus knows this. Some of us are aware of our husband’s lies. So let’s talk about that in the context of the scriptures on betrayal and our Savior, Jesus Christ. Because he knew what Judas’ character was. And maybe he’s still hoping Judas will make different choices.

Anne: There are so many women who listen to the podcast, and they realize their husband is emotionally abusive. He’s psychologically abusive, he’s been lying to them. And I did it too. We try to get him help, and people blame us. “Why did you do that?” In the scriptures of Judas’ betrayal, Christ provides a profound example. He knew Judas was a betrayer—this is evident in John 6:70-71, long before the Last Supper. Yet, he chose not to dismiss him. The reason for this remains a mystery.

I’ve heard that in some faith traditions, they attribute not necessarily good intentions to Judas, but maybe an explanation for why he did it. That gives him the benefit of the doubt. Which is heartbreaking, that someone would try to give Judas the benefit of the doubt, but then it doesn’t surprise me. Because they’re still doing it in the context of our husbands. They’re giving our husbands the benefit of the doubt, despite the awful choices he’s made.

All of us have a devil in our house essentially. Someone who is making bad choices and betraying us, lying to us all the time, and undermining us. And somehow everybody wants to give him the benefit of the doubt. The therapist wants to give him the benefit of the doubt. The clergy wants to give him the benefit of the doubt, our neighbors. So I’m like, Oh, it happened with Judas too. They’re giving Judas the benefit of the doubt. That is so crazy to me.

Jesse: Many of Jesus’ followers believed that when the Messiah came, He was going to overthrow the Roman Empire. So it’s possible that Judas led the authorities to Jesus to force Him into a position where he would rise up and take his rightful place as the Messiah and overthrow the Romans.

Obviously, he was greedy and he was selling Jesus out, but there was also that thought process that he might have been operating in sort of a nationalist type of way. Trying to force Jesus to do what he thought He came to do.

Anne: There’s so much to learn about Judas’ character in these Bible verses on betrayal, on so many levels. If they say he had “good intentions,” because he was trying to force Jesus to do something. No, because the control aspect is not good intentions. If he loved Jesus, the first commandment is to love God. The second commandment is to love your neighbor. If you love this person and care about them, are you really gonna put ’em in a position where you’re forcing them to choose between death and rising up and starting a big old war?

That’s extreme. The concept that somehow, someone was good because they’re willing to sell someone out, make them face death, and force them into this extremely awkward position for political gain, would we say? Was it politics back then? Who was in charge? Were the Romans in charge? Were the Jews in charge? You’re putting the people you love in danger.

If Christ came to love and serve, and bring people together and have compassion for people, that’s like the opposite of what Christ wanted. and you’re trying to force Christ into a box. It doesn’t make sense.

Jesse: Regardless, Judas benefited from being in Jesus’ circle. Whether his motivation was greed or whether it was political. Christ is growing in popularity because people are realizing who he is. Judas was benefiting from that.

Anne: Yeah, maybe the reason Christ said you’re a devil is because he knew Judas was exploitative. John 12, showcases Judas. Judas’ exploitative character, where Mary anoints Jesus with expensive perfume, and he criticizes Mary. She’s not doing anything wrong. That all of us have experienced, we’re doing something good. We’re trying to protect our family, and we’re criticized no matter what we do. And then he lies and says he cares about poor people, he doesn’t.

Jesse: She understood who Christ was. She was anointing him. So, that gives us an insight into Judas’ character and his understanding of Christ. ‘Cause he was criticizing her for doing what she did.

Anne: I mean, here’s an apostle criticizing a woman for doing the right thing.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: It’s a Biblical fact, in the scriptures on betrayal. We can say this is Biblical, that men in religious positions criticize women when they’re doing the right thing. Here’s a prime example of that, and Jesus was not a fan. In that instance, Christ was there to call Judas out.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: But when we’re in our pastor’s office or our bishop’s office, and we’re with our husband. And he’s criticizing us for not praying enough, or asking too many questions. That was what I got all the time. I ask too many questions.

Jesse: Right.

Anne: Jesus isn’t there in that moment to say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Nope, that’s not what’s happening.” And so it’s hard to tell. Because they’re your religious leader. Hopefully, by showing examples in scripture of how Jesus spoke about betrayal, we can help women have Jesus in their heads.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: Say, you’re not doing anything wrong.

Jesse: Right.

Anne: You’re okay. He’s the one doing the wrong thing. In John 12:6, we know Judas wasn’t doing this because he cared about the poor. Because it says, “not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief.” They use the word thief. The label of thief indicates someone who’s exploitative.

They want something without earning it. They wanna steal it or take it from someone who has done the work. Like, you’ve done all the work to keep your family together. You’ve done all the work to have a good marriage. You’ve done all the work to ensure your kids are okay, and then he is a thief in that he just wants the fruits of all that without having to do any of it.

Jesse: Right.

Anne: So this word thief in these Bible verses on betrayal indicates that exploitative nature.

Jesse: That’s right. If Judas justified what he was doing for political gain. Let’s say, for the “greater good” of all. My ex-husband could justify everything he was doing. I would ask him about planning for the future, and he would not wanna have a discussion about it. But then in the therapist’s office, he would talk about how he was planning for our future. So he had this ability to rationalize that he was doing those things when he wasn’t.

Anne: So many women say I think he ended up believing his lies. And I think the jury’s still out on that one. It might’ve been he pretended to believe to get what he wanted. I think they know they’re lying. And the reason why I say that is because when I lie, I know.

Jesse: Yes, now I believe he knew what he was doing. And he still knows what he’s doing. Because he’s capable of telling the truth when he wants to. He was skilled at giving bits and pieces of truth to me.

Anne: As a tactic.

Jesse: Where he could “honestly” say to me that he was telling me the truth. He just wasn’t telling me the whole truth.

Anne: So he’s using truth to lie and get what he wants. In Judas’ case and the verses on betrayal, in Matthew 26, he actually makes a choice. He’s like, “Hey, you pay me. I’ll give Jesus up.” Now, this part to me does not make sense. The people who wanted to kill Jesus for sure knew who he was.

Anne: We know this was the case because Christ himself says in one of the verses on betrayal, Matthew 26:55, “Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye lay no hold on me.”

These guys manufacture all this when you could have just come and taken me anytime. I was always out and about.

Judas was trying to capitalize on his relationship with Christ for his own gain. And so are these husbands who don’t love their wives, who cheat on them and lie, but want the benefits of having a wife. They want someone to cook, clean and plan the trips.

He could have been honest about it and said, “Hey, I don’t love you. I’d rather have sex with someone else”, or “I’d rather use pornography and masturbate than have sex with you.” But then they’d give up all the benefits she gives him. They’re not willing to be honest, because they’d have to give up those benefits they have not earned. So here again, he says the word “thief,” like you’re a thief, because you could’ve just openly come and captured me while I was out and about.

It also shows he deliberately did it.They could have found him anywhere. That somebody needed to arrange where he would get caught is ridiculous. Also, Christ knew he was going to take upon him the sins of the world, be crucified. This was all going to happen, whether Judas was involved or not. I just really feel like Judas was like, “How can I benefit from this?” ‘Cause it’s going down anyway. It also shows he did it deliberately.

Anne: Let’s talk about this for a minute. Men who have an affair. It takes work.

Jesse: It does. A lot of work.

Anne: They have to figure out how to get her phone number, or they have to text her. They have to figure out what lies to tell you. And none of these things are accidental. I’ve always laughed about this when teenagers, they’re like, “Oh, we accidentally had sex and she’s pregnant.” I’m like, so your pants accidentally unzipped and they accidentally came off, and your private parts accidentally went into her private parts. What are you talking about? There was no part of this that was accidental. There’s no part of this where you like fell into sin.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: Was caught in sin.

Jesse: Sometimes those things will be excused as a mistake. It takes the intention and personal responsibility out of it as something that you accidentally did, and that’s not true.

Anne: I mean, it takes planning. It takes effort. I mean, that’s like saying I accidentally robbed a bank.

Jesse: Yes,

Anne: No, she just started kissing me. What was I supposed to do about it? I accidentally looked at explicit material. What are you talking about? I’ve literally never accidentally watched Star Trek.

I’ve never accidentally, I don’t like the show Friends. I don’t enjoy it. I’ve never accidentally watched it ever. If it comes on, I just turn it off. So these guys are not accidentally watching explicit material, they’re seeking it out. Like in these scriptures of Judas’ betrayal, he sought the priests.

Jesse: Exactly.

Anne: If they do run into it, just like I might run into “Friends”, then I just turn it. It’s like not a big deal. There’s no accidental, I viewed pornography for three hours and masturbated, no.

Jesse: Yeah, exactly. Yes, like they have no self control. A lot of the Christian marriage literature I read painted men as not having any self-control. Women were painted as the gatekeepers of sexuality, and we either needed to ensure that our husbands were satisfied, on demand whenever they wanted it or needed it. It was touted as a need for men. If we did not do that, of course, they were going to stray because we were not meeting their needs. Self-control in scriptures on betrayal is not gender specific. We’re all supposed to have it and be able to control ourselves.

Anne: Well, like what were they supposed to do before they got married?

Jesse: Exactly.

Anne: If you’re in a coma, like does that justify either raping you in your hospital bed to be graphic about it or having an affair? Because apparently they must have sex. That’s so crazy.

Jesse: A very specific example: When we were in counseling, my ex-husband told me he needed sex to be connected with me. The way that played out in reality after we had sex, he would go off and do whatever he was gonna do, engage in his hobbies, go to work, whatever.

And then he wanted sex again. Then he’d be gone again. The Christian literature did not help, because it fed that narrative that it’s the way men connect. And I had to do that first to establish emotional connection. And that never happened.

Anne: And so that means it’s a lie, and that means it was always manipulation because you’re always hoping. And this happens with couple therapy too. It happens with pastoral counseling. You’re always hoping the next session will be the breakthrough. Every intimate time, maybe then you’ll feel emotionally connected.

But it never comes, because it was all a lie to manipulate you to have sex whenever he wanted, but he didn’t care about you. He was just using you. So we talked about before the devil didn’t make him do it. He is the devil, Christ says. Then he says in one of the verses on betrayal, “One of you will betray me.” We know people heard it because everybody asks, “Is it I?”

He says, “I’m going to dip the bread and give it to the person who will betray me.” This reminds me of a dinner I had with my family. My ex is there, my whole family is there. I talked about this on the Josh Powell episode, ’cause it was right after Josh Powell had murdered his kids.

So I’m sitting at dinner with everyone, and I’m like, “Hey, if anything happens to me, Chuck did it.” And I said it in front of him and my family, ’cause I thought that would keep me safe. So, I wonder if Christ is like, maybe if I out him in front of everybody, then he is not gonna do it. And then, Judas eats it. I’m like, why did he eat it? I’m wondering if he was like, well, everybody else ate their bread.

Anne: So, I’m going to eat it and be like, of course it’s not me, but I have to eat the bread ’cause everybody else did. I don’t know what was going through his mind, but that’s interesting to me that he ate it. Part of me thinks that when we have proof, we know that he is texting a coworker or something, and we take that and put it in front of him. And the thought is he’ll be like, “You got me.”

So in this instance, I can imagine they’re like, this is Christ. Do they know that he’s perfect? This is a question I’ve been wondering. He’s their friend. He does stuff on Sunday, and they’re like, you’re not supposed to do that on Sunday. They question him.

So we know he’s perfect, but they might not have truly understood because they’re seeing him do some things that aren’t traditional, that aren’t within cultural norms, so here’s Judas’ thinking. “What do I do? He’s calling me out in front of everybody.” And it reminds me a little bit of when you have proof.

They don’t respond the way you think. And so if you have thought, “I’m gonna show him this, and then he’ll have no choice but to repent.” Know that our Savior, Jesus Christ, also was like, “Hey, the person I’m gonna give this bread to is the person who betrayed me.” In these scriptures on betrayal, Judas still did it. If you’ve enrolled in the Living Free Workshop, you’ll understand why these strategies don’t work and what Christ taught us to do.

Anne: There are verses on betrayal and several places where Christ talks about what to do with someone who is dangerous, which he actually did with Judas. He let Judas have his own way.

Jesse: Yes, there are several instances in scripture on betrayal where Jesus confronts people. He gives them the opportunity to accept the truth. But he does not pursue them and continue to say, “Hey, I’m telling you the truth here. Why aren’t you believing me? I’m the Messiah.” He just doesn’t do that.

He offers the truth and lets them go on their merry way. Something that as a Christ follower and wife, I got a lot of mixed messages on that: don’t say too much because he’s your husband, he’s busy, he’s working hard, he’s stressed out, so don’t overburden him with all these worries that you have. I was encouraged more to go after my husband in his love languages, like his need for physical touch, or making sure the home was kept just right. The lesson from scripture for me now is that Jesus presented the truth to people. He let them go and do what they were going to do.

You said two things there that I thought were interesting. The part, like, don’t burden him. This type of, I’m gonna say “Christian” teaching is a double standard, because he is supposed to be like Christ. And Christ wants you to take all your burdens to him.

But apparently you are the one who’s supposed to bear all the burdens, and you’re not supposed to take any of your burdens to him. that’s a problem.

Anne: The second one, so many people talk in these verses on betrayal about Judas’ betrayal of Jesus, as if it happened the night he actually gave him up. But it was happening the whole time, it’s happening when he criticizes Mary and throws her under the bus. It’s happening when he actually makes the deal with the religious authorities. It’s happening the whole time. So when Jesus says, “The person I give the bread to will betray me.” Judas already betrayed him. He has a history.

If we were in Christ’s position, not if we are Christ, but if we’re there, and Judas is our husband at the dinner. And we’re like, “Hey, he’s gonna betray me if he keeps doing this stuff.” Let’s just imagine all the people involved with this. They’re all sitting around the table and you’re like, this is what’s happening. He’s gonna betray me. Now in that moment, what did they tell us?

They told us to pray for him. They told us to go to couple therapy. So in that moment where Judas takes the bread, Christ isn’t like, “Hold on, push pause on this whole thing. Can somebody call a couple therapist.” He didn’t say, “Wait, can you guys, hold on? I’m gonna pray so hard, it’s going to fix Judas, and I’m gonna come out and he is not gonna betray me anymore.” That does not happen. Instead, what does Christ say in that moment? He says, “Whatever you’re gonna do, do it fast.”

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: Paraphrasing, whatever you’re about to do, get on with it.

Anne: A lot of us feel this urgency, like something’s gotta change. We get to that point. But in scriptures on betrayal, instead of everyone else being like, “Jesus got to that point too. I get it, good for you. You’re following the Savior’s example.” Instead, they’re like, no, no, no. Hold, wait, wait, wait, go to couple therapy, get pastoral counseling. Have you prayed about it? Are you staying on your side of the street?

In that moment, he does not pursue Judas. He doesn’t try to get Judas to change. He doesn’t do anything about Judas. Also, he also doesn’t do anything about himself. He’s not like, I need to go to 12 Step, or I need to be a better communicator, or I need to change so that Judas doesn’t betray me.

Jesse: Right, I’m certain he’s been aware of Judas behavior all along. It’s hard to reconcile that Christ would allow Judas to still be part of his inner circle behaving that way. But he finally gets to that point, and I think this is the lesson certainly for me. When you’ve said all the things. And you’ve tried everything you knew to do, to reach your husband. Saying, “Hey, I see this thing happening. I’m not comfortable with it. Please pay attention to our marriage. Please protect our marriage.”

And you realize they’re still gonna pursue this person, or they’re still gonna pursue pornography. I finally got to the point where I was like I don’t wanna live the rest of my life trying to figure out what the truth is. Trying to figure out when the next relationship will happen.

Anne: Because you’ve been able to see his character. He’s been betraying the whole time. I wanna make that clear. And then wouldn’t even say final act of betrayal, actually. ‘Cause we’ll talk about more betrayal that happens afterwards. He kisses him. How many of us have been betrayed with a kiss? They kiss us, act like they love us or care about us when they’re just exploiting us. In our case, this is sexual coercion. Where they’re lying to us about what they’re doing. And Judas said the same thing.

Now, I wanna pause here and talk about the difference between Judas betraying Christ the whole time and the night that Peter denies the Savior. So here’s another example in the Bible on betrayal and Christ prophesying. But I’m starting to believe this was more of a directive, because Peter is a good person. No one ever called him a devil. And Christ says, “Before the cock crows, you’re gonna deny me three times.”

I’m wondering now if it was a directive, “Look, these people wanna kill you. I don’t want you to die. I want you to be alive so that my work can continue. So you will deny me three times.” And maybe Peter’s like, “But I don’t wanna deny you.” And he is like, “No, you’re going to,” and then in the moment Peter’s like, “Oh, I get it. They might kill me. So, yeah, I don’t know him.”

The Living Free Workshop talks a lot about these, I’ll say ethical and moral quandaries, where we’re sometimes to choose between our safety and being honest with someone who’s trying to exploit us. Our intentions are to protect ourselves.

Anne: Whereas if they say, “Hey, I was just trying to protect myself from you.” Their intention is to exploit you, but they’re lying about protecting themselves ’cause they don’t need any protection.

After Peter does that, the rest of his life he tries to spread the gospel. He’s like, “I did survive. I felt bad about denying him that night, and the rest of my life, I will try to bring people to Christ.” There are so many examples in the Bible on betrayal and people who do terrible things. And then they repent, and they spend the rest of their lives as a missionary. Paul’s one of those.

So, Judas could have been like, “Oh, I really messed up. I’m gonna spend the rest of my life making amends for this.” Judas does not do that. So this is one other thing I want women to think about. A lot of us are like, if I could just get him to feel remorse, if I could just get him to understand.

If he has an exploitative character and does feel remorse. We don’t know what he felt remorse for. Did he feel remorse that like Jesus was crucified and he couldn’t use Jesus anymore?

Jesse: Hmm.

Anne: He couldn’t use him for political reasons. His political aspirations are dead in the water if he was riding on Christ’s coattails to do that. And because he doesn’t actually believe in him as a Savior.

Anne: What reason does he have to look to his teachings anymore or any of the principles of the gospel? Whereas Peter actually believed the principles of the gospel and wanted to teach them to people. But Judas doesn’t have any faith or hope. So I want women to remember that if he has an exploitative character, remorse will not do anything.

Jesse: Right, it’s not gonna bear good fruit. I think it actually mentions in one of the translations of these scriptures on betrayal that Judas had worldly sorrow. Whereas if it’s a Christlike fruit of the spirit type of sorrow, Godly sorrow. You’re prone to return to Christ where your hope comes from. And return to repentance, truly feeling sorry for whatever harm you’ve caused. The worldly sorrow tends to be more self-centered. I’m sorry I got caught. I’m sorry I’m experiencing pain.

Anne: i’m sorry that I can’t exploit him anymore.

Jesse: Right.

Anne: I’m sorry I can’t have my cake and eat it too. Men who want to use explicit material and also have a family. They might express remorse that they can’t do both. It seems so genuine when they’re talking to us. To think of them feeling really bad is actually true. It’s just that they’re lying to you about what they’re feeling bad about.

Jesse: Right.

Anne: Because Judas didn’t do anything to help the cause after that.

Anne: So to recap, what can we learn from the Bible about betrayal and the way Jesus handled Judas betraying him, the whole time Judas exploitative character? Number one, Jesus saw Judas character through his actions. He never sugarcoated it. He called out what was happening in real time, when Judas was doing it with Mary. And he warned what would happen if Judas didn’t change. Despite those warnings and clear indicators from the Savior himself, Judas kept lying, exploiting, and betraying.

So if somebody tells you to stop shaming your husband, or to quit sharing his so-called “mistakes” with other people, or to stop being judgy. Feel free to roll your eyes at them. Following Christ’s example means speaking the truth plainly and boldly, and calling out truth isn’t wrong. It’s never been wrong, and anyone who tells you it is, that’s manipulation so he can continue to exploit the situation.

So if he doesn’t change or gets worse, none of it has anything to do with you being honest. I say that, while also saying the Living Free strategies show the part I talked about with Peter, like how to protect yourself when you are in danger. It’s important to know what those strategies are. Because Christ himself says there are times when it’s not safe to say the truth boldly. Like, don’t cast your pearls before swine, agree quickly with an adversary.

Anne: I cover this in detail during the Living Free Workshop, so I encourage you to check it out.

But first, let me be clear—stating the truth is not the problem. Searching Bible verses on betrayal helped me find strength and clarity on this.

Anne: Number two, Jesus is perfect, and someone still betrayed him.

So if anyone’s telling you that if you prayed more or did something different, your husband wouldn’t have betrayed you, that is a lie. There’s nothing you could have done. It was all his choices.

Anne: And number three, if your husband has a deceitful, exploitative character, even if he seems to feel “remorse”, it will not lead to repentance.

So if you’re trying to observe, does he have this type of character? And he’s had those moments where he seemed remorseful before. And he continued to do it. You don’t have to find out again. Just like Jesus already knew long before the final betrayal.

But I’m gonna say the final betrayal was that he didn’t spend the rest of his life making amends for what he’d done. He just completely gave up on the gospel, altogether. Because Judas had the character that he did, remorse won’t help him.

So if you’ve been thinking there’s something you could do to get him to feel that, it wouldn’t necessarily lead to what you’re hoping for. It’s really sad. So like our Savior, women want peace. They want a peaceful home.

That’s what I wanted, you wanted, and what all of us want. Following Christ example, Judas didn’t change. We can be confident knowing that it has nothing to do with us.

Jesse: Right, it’s manipulative to put the pressure on wives in our cases to keep us caught in this cycle of doing whatever the next thing is to try to get our husbands to change, to repent or to feel sorrow. Having sex in order to get him to connect with me emotionally felt manipulative to me. Because I’m doing something in order for him to be nice to me.

Jesse: I shouldn’t have to do that. But most of the Christian teachings I read and was exposed to didn’t frame it that way. It framed it as my duty, and he needed that to connect with me.

Anne: Yeah, no one says, Christ, if you just prayed more, Judas wouldn’t have done that. Maybe if you spent more time with him alone, maybe you paid too much attention to Peter, James, and John, and you weren’t paying enough attention to Judas. I’m thinking he’d be like, “What are you talking about? The reason I didn’t wanna hang out with Judas as much as Peter is ’cause he was a pain in the butt. What do you mean? It’s not me, it’s Judas.”

Jesse: Yes, exactly.

Anne: Why would I wanna hang out with him? He is not a good person. Like, why would I wanna have sex with my husband? He is not nice to me.

Jesse: Exactly.

Anne: This is crazy town. I think he would say that, because of my study of bible verses about betrayal. I think he would be like, “You’re not doing anything wrong, Jesse and all listeners.” I did the same thing, and Judas still betrayed me.

Jesse: That’s what I love about the Living Free Strategies. The way the strategies are laid out helps identify your own thought processes and their thought processes. For me, as a believer, as a Christ follower, it helped me question, why am I believing this thing my husband is telling me? Because my body tells me something’s not right. You want to believe what your husband tells you is true, but when their behaviors give you something else, you have cognitive dissonance.

Jesse: Telling me that he needs me to tell him what to do in our relationship, but he seems to have no problem figuring out what to do to reach out to this other person. So Living Free gave me a framework where I could actually write things down and analyze if it is really true. The exercises really made things clear. Helping me discern when he’s lying to me, what is actually happening here. And what do I do to have peace and love that I desire and I am worthy of having?

Anne: You are, all listeners right now are worthy of love and a healthy relationship. And a therapist or other type of coach might tell you if he’s unhealthy, then you are. And that’s not true. You could be the healthiest person like Jesus Christ, and have a relationship with an unhealthy person who betrays you. The Living Free strategies give women mental, psychological and emotional space to observe truth.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: That’s the hardest part of all this. What is actually going on? Who is he in relation to me? What am I to him? Living Free makes that clear, because I just don’t think divorce is the solution.

Maybe a domestic violence shelter will tell you that divorce will solve all your problems. I’m grateful I’m divorced. Would I ever tell a woman not to get divorced? No, if she wants to get divorced, go for it. But my ex abused me post-divorce for eight years.

If you share kids, figuring out the strategic way to see him for who he is. Whether married or not, is so important. Because he’s going to be that person, just like Judas was no matter what.

Anne: People are like, oh, just don’t let him affect you, while he’s emotionally punching you in the face. You’ve got an emotional bruise. There’s nothing you can do about that bruise.

It doesn’t matter if you’re married or divorced, he’s still going to affect you, even if he’s just texting you about your kids. Learning these strategies while you’re married, divorced, or whatever your situation is no matter what’s going to happen, is really important.

Because no matter what, metaphorically, there’s no way you can get punched in the face and not get a bruise. Jesse, thanks for helping me sort all this out. There are lots of things to think about. Thank you so much for being here to talk about this today.

Jesse: Yeah, I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.