Covert emotional abuse is difficult to identify. If you’re wondering if you’re husband is using covert emotional abuse, here’s what you need to know.

To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne Blythe, M.Ed. Host of The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, talks to Nadira, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community about her husband’s covert emotional abuse.

Covert abusers are often charming, confident, and seem to speak and act in a gentle and polite manner. It can be terrifying for victims to suddenly realize that the inconsistent cruelty and confusion they experience is abuse.

Men who covertly abuse women don’t always hit, yell, break things, or lash out. Instead, the abuse is more subtle and hard to pin down. This makes covert abusers appear “normal” and makes victims feel crazy, overly-sensitive, and nit-picky. The reality, of course, is that victims are often under reacting to the gaslighting, manipulation, and crazy-making they are experiencing.

Because abusive men usually lie about their sexual behaviors, including exploitative materials use and affairs. Women are in serious danger of STD infection. When men lie about their behavior, or withhold information, they commit coercion.

Coercion is an umbrella term for partner rape and sexual abuse. Women are victims of coercion if they don’t have the information they need to give informed consent before contact.

When women have contact without knowing the truth about their partner’s use, past and/or current partner(s), STDs, compulsive masturbation, or other behaviors, they become at-risk for STDs and STIs, exploitation, and the intense trauma that accompanies betrayal.

One of the most dangerous aspects of covert abuse is the way it is gradually intensified and normalized by abusers.

Covert abusers are master-manipulators and often have more self-control than physical batterers. Because of this, they can slowly groom victims into accepting abuse as normal – and even feel grateful during the brief periods when their partner is not inflicting psychological damage.

Because covert abusers are often exploitative materials users. Men will hide behind the label of “sex addict”, reaping the privileges of being an “addict” while continuing to harm and cast blame on partners.

While some individuals may truly suffer from addiction to sex and pornography (yes, it is addictive), all men who use pornography are abusers.

When therapists, 12-step groups, clergy, and others encourage families to view the abusive man as addicted, they minimize the danger of the abuse and enable the abuser. Abusers can change, but it’s probably not through CSAT therapists.

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know how maddening, terrifying, and heartbreaking it can be to suffer at the hands of a covert abuser. The confusion and distortion of reality is enough to drain energy, hope, and joy from anyone’s life.

But healing is possible: with self-care, safety, and support. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets daily in multiple time zones to offer victims a safe place to process trauma, share their stories, ask questions, and connect with other victims who get it. Join today and begin your journey to healing.

Anne: Before we get to this week’s guest. We have a lot of women who listen to the podcast, who are not of any faith or aren’t Christians. I want to welcome everyone and thank everyone for listening. When women share on the podcast, I always want them to share from their own personal faith or paradigm. That means I frequently share from my own, and this podcast is not just for members of my church, but for everybody.

We have a member of our community on today’s episode, who comes from a Muslim background, although she converted to Christianity. We’re going to call her Nadira. Nadira and I will be talking about covert emotional abuse. And as she shares her story, I’m going to stop and point out six examples of covert emotional abuse. Welcome Nadira.

Nadira: Hi Anne. I have to say that’s something I appreciate about your podcast, because I know you’re a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so when I first started listening, I thought maybe it was just for people that belong to that faith. But as I listened to the podcast, I was encouraged that this is for all women from all types of faith backgrounds.

But the truth is, we share this thing in common, in that we’ve all been abused. It’s been comforting for me to hear from all types of women with all types of beliefs.

Anne: Oh, thank you so much for saying that. Yeah, that’s important to me that everyone feels welcome here. Everyone has different epiphanies based on their experience. I want women to share those. So the other women can hear them and realize they’re not alone. And that we’re all so similar.

Thanks for saying that. I appreciate it. Let’s talk about your story. Did you recognize abusive behaviors in the beginning?

Nadira: What I will say is yes and no. No, I didn’t have a category or the right verbiage for it. But what I knew was something was terribly wrong from the beginning. I’m Middle Eastern.

My dad is from the Middle East, and I was raised Muslim, but came to faith as a Christian when I was 16. I took that decision seriously and devoted my life to my faith. It was life changing for me. And when I met my ex-husband, he was on full time staff with a Christian organization.

He was basically a missionary. We actually took Bible classes together when I met him. He checked all the boxes. He is a master manipulator, like men I’ve heard about on this podcast. And so sadly, I kept thinking, well if I would change, or maybe I’m being ridiculous. I kept questioning myself, but innately, I knew something was terribly wrong.

Nadira: On our honeymoon, my ex-husband actually decided to play volleyball in a two on two tournament for two days in a row with a totally hot woman in her bikini and flirt with her the whole time. Now, I asked him about it. I’m a person who’s forthright in what I feel, and I told him I felt hurt. I said I didn’t want him to do it, and the next day he did it again.

Anne: Oh wow, wow, on your honeymoon. I’m so sorry. So that’s our first example of covert emotional abuse. It was his absolute lack of consideration for you on your honeymoon. Like he was more into this other person than his own wife on her honeymoon. I am so sorry. I mean, how did the rest of the honeymoon go?

Nadira: I always felt like I was overly jealous in the conversations with him. I was insane. And so right from the get go, there was a precedent set that he could do whatever he wanted and flip it all around. And I would feel like what is wrong with me?

That continued, and so in my gut, I always knew there was something terribly wrong. But my ex-husband, like so many people I’ve heard about on this podcast, which really helped me not feel alone. He’s well liked, by the way. And he’s always been the pastor’s best friend. He’s a successful businessman. He was actually a star athlete.

Nadira: He had this Opie Taylor image, that he was just this aw shucks, unassuming guy, and everyone loved and trusted him. And so I always felt like, what’s wrong with me? And he would say that to me, like, what’s wrong with you? Everybody else loves me. But I was extremely neglected in our home.

I was a newlywed, I just moved across the country. And I felt very alone. We lived in a house built in 1948, so it was very small. He would disappear into the office for hours, and he would work long hours outside the home. And in his free time, he was either in the office. Or he watched TV and I was so lonely. I was seven months pregnant.

And I thought I’m going to leave and see if he even notices. So, I left the house, seven months pregnant, in an unsafe area, by the way. And two and a half hours later, he calls me and says, What are you doing? Where are you at? It took two and a half hours for him to even notice that I had left our little 1, 200 square foot house. So, the neglect was extreme.

Anne: That’s our second example of covert emotional abuse, emotional neglect. Like he didn’t even notice that you were missing. I can imagine in that situation you would feel so alone. I went through that too. Because right after I married, I moved to be with my ex, and I felt so alone too. And he would just take off and not tell me where he was going. What else did you notice early on? Other than the emotional neglect?

Nadira: Pretty early on, one week before our oldest child’s birth. I had gone downstairs earlier than normal and caught my ex-husband looking at it.

Anne: And there is example number three. So the third example of covert emotional abuse is secretly using. It’s covert because you can’t see it because he’s hiding it from you.

Nadira: Prior to marriage, I had actually asked him, which is abnormal at the time. But I had asked him about it, because I heard of a story where pornography had invaded a marriage. And so I asked him about his experience with it. And of course, he lied to me and said he didn’t have a problem or any issues with it.

I went through all the normal feelings of what’s wrong with me. Why am I not enough? Does he love me? All those questions that are normal. So when I caught him one week before the birth of our first child. At that point, I knew, okay, there is something much deeper going on here. That’s not about me.

Anne: Lying is example number four. Lying is covert emotional abuse. You’re resisting the entire time. Knowing that something was wrong, and in your efforts to resist, where else did you turn for help?

Nadira: Yeah, I tried a lot of things. I’m just a proactive person, especially in relationships. From the beginning, I was reaching out for marriage counseling, pastoral counseling, to do marriage workshops.

He worked for a well known Christian organization, and they had resources for us. So we were utilizing all those resources. In all that, he could answer and look like a shining great guy. But no one was in our home to see the neglect. For other listeners who can relate to this, I wanted to share this.

So, my ex-husband was not a screamer or yeller. He did push me once or twice, which is abuse. That was in a really extreme moment, and it was not the norm. He did everything with a smile on his face. So he was always cool, calm, collected, and always smiling. So all the neglect, all the flirting with other women in front of me. And the inappropriate stuff he’s done with our children has all been done with a smile on his face. It was not this ogre like persona.

Anne: Let’s pause here for just a second to point out the fifth example of covert emotional abuse. It doesn’t look bad, it looks nice and kind, he looks like a responsible, upstanding person. And that’s why it’s covert, because you cannot see it. Before we get to the inappropriate things he did with your kids. Can we return to marriage counseling? When you did pastoral counseling, did anyone identify the abuse or him as an abuser?

Nadira: Never, not one time. So to give you a little history, I caught him. Well, then I caught him again. And then he seemed to do well for years. And then the last time I caught him, it had escalated for years. There was a lot I didn’t know, he had been having affairs. He had engaged with prostitutes. Also, he had brought prostitutes into our home on several occasions. He had done all these horrific things to our family. And at that point even, I was told it was addiction.

So then we went the addiction route for years. Even when he went to treatment, which he did for addiction. Which I think was a huge waste of $50,000, because it upped his pathology and made him more dangerous. And then I knew he was going back to “addiction,” even before he got caught again. But the truth was that I didn’t want to be in relationship with a manipulator, a liar, a cheater, a psychologically abusive person.

Nadira: So I filed for divorce.

Anne: Yeah, I hear that all the time. Time and time again, women tell me their story about how to deal with their addict husband and he went to addiction therapy or abuse cessation therapy. It was not only a waste of time and money, but he actually got worse. So it was like paying $50,000 to make him worse. So that is the sixth example of covert emotional abuse, there’s no resolution.

They give you the impression that they’re going to get help, But then they use that proximity to you and their promise to you that they’re going to change as a way to continue to exploit you.

Nadira: It was traumatizing, because here I had all this hope for help. And it ended up being more dangerous for our family in the long run. And yet, I believe the people at treatment had good intentions. I think it may work for someone, I don’t know. But in our case, it really upped his pathology, and he’s that much more dangerous.

Anne: For women wondering if their husband is addicted to this, when do you start to recognize it’s abuse?

Nadira: Well, I’ll be honest, Anne, it’s been listening to your podcast. My therapist recommended your podcast to me. I’ve only been listening to your podcast for six months. So it’s only been the last six months, and it’s been a complete paradigm shift for me. And it’s actually totally changed my life.

This is why: when it was sex addiction, there is this idea that he’s a sick person and needs empathy. It’s just a sick person who has like cancer, for example. And so that’s how we treated it as a family. In the meantime, he’s still doing horrific things to the children. And so it was listening to every one of these podcasts. It really made my whole paradigm shift and go, you know what? It’s not addiction. It’s just an extremely abusive, I believe sociopath is what I believe he is.

He lacks empathy, which allows him to do horrific things to his family and children. Like introduce his children to prostitutes with a smile on his face. On a regular basis, he would become aroused around the children when playing with them. And not when they physically touched each other. What I mean is, like, they weren’t body on body. He would just become aroused.

And that was something I had addressed before he ever got caught in full blown addiction with prostitutes. I had been talking to our pastor, to our counselors, and everyone was like, that’s weird. But you know, they would just tell him, like, get away from the children. But that had been going on for years.

Nadira: Since our two oldest children are four years old and two years old, he would be aroused playing with the children. I never caught child abuse material, but I’d only caught him using exploitative material twice. And they were like four years apart. We had covenant eyes and all that, but he is a master manipulator. He lived a whole double life. I will tell you, everyone who found out our story in our friend group was like, he’s the last person I ever expected. He was always the pastor’s best friend.

Anne: That’s why they’re so dangerous. When I talk to people about how use is abusive. If you catch them, you don’t know what else is going on. They’re not going to tell you.

Nadira: They only admit what they get caught with. Even if it’s “just pornography,” unless you’ve agreed on that in your relationship. That is abuse. That’s lying and coercion. That’s manipulating. I want to read you this quick, from the Domestic Violence Victims Handbook. I picked it up at Children’s Services. So it describes abuse, right? And under the different headings, there’s like coercion, making the victim feel guilty, pushing the victim into decisions, sulking, manipulating children and other family members.

Always insisting on being right, making impossible rules and punishing the victim for breaking them. Talks about emotional withdrawal, economic control. A lot of these behaviors described in this are exactly what I went through and what our children went through and still go through. And yet, he’s not a physically abusive person. He does it all with a smile.

Nadira: I was told, and I know I’m not alone in this. That if I would be more loving and kinder, and there’s a passage in 1 Peter 3 that talks about submitting without a word, That he would be a more loving husband.

The purpose of abuse is to silence your victim. It silenced me. I literally felt like I was dying inside, and he went off the rails. When he got caught, like really caught, we were broke because he had spent all our money on women. So me trying to do whatever it takes to save my marriage hurt me in the long run. Because literally at the end of the day, we were broke. He had destroyed everything. He had abused our children.

If we’re friends and you come to me and say, I’m being abused. I want to help you get help and get to a safe place. But if you come to me and say, you know,there’s a whole different approach. And your safety is not the main concern, which is crazy to me. The main concern is him. Which is just enabling him to, like in our case, up his pathology and become more dangerous.

So your podcast has made a huge difference to me. It’s changed everything, because instead of treating it like addiction and all the ways I was taught. Because I went to Al Anon for years and stuff like that. I am treating it like, no, we are victims, he’s an abuser, and we need to be safe.

Nadira: And we are currently in court over custody issues. He’s lost complete custody of our oldest. We’re trying to free the younger children from the abuse. It’s a totally different perspective, because I don’t treat it like an addiction, and he just needs help. I actually don’t believe there’s help for him. I believe he’s a sociopath and that literally we just need to get safe to a safe place.

Anne: Even if there was some kind of help for him. The point is still the same. If the person isn’t safe, it doesn’t matter if they can become safe or not. They’re not currently safe, period. We need to protect ourselves. With your ex, I tend to agree with you. He’s never going to change, but if he could, hypothetically, it would not matter.

We still need to protect ourselves, because he’s not safe. That is the most fundamental thing that most people don’t understand. They think if somebody can become safe, we don’t need to protect ourselves. And instead, we need to be patient, kind, and loving. And I’m like, no, no, no, no. It doesn’t matter if they can change or not. That’s not the issue. The issue is I need to protect myself now because they’re not safe now, period.

And that’s why I wrote the Living Free Strategies, because they give women enough space to observe. To see, am I safe now? And then, it also teaches women strategies to protect themselves. To get more information about that, click on this link.

Anne: In your case, you filed for divorce to protect yourself. And I’m so sorry it’s still a struggle to keep your children safe. That is such a common problem.

Anne: After what you’ve been through. Knowing what you know now, what insights could you share with women in your same situation?

Nadira: My faith had a lot to do, I believe, with a lot of the decisions I made. And God does not value marriage over my relationship with God. And that seems like a very obvious point. But I kept feeling like the counsel I received from pastors and lay people was that I needed to do whatever it takes, including extreme abuse, to stay married and keep a family together.

And yet, my children endured more abuse because I was trying to please God in that way. And marriage in many ways in some churches or communities of faith is held above a woman and children’s safety, emotional and mental well-being. Because, you know, that kind of abuse long term, I got to really desperate places.

I got to places where I didn’t want to live anymore. It took me to those places. I believe everything happens for a reason. But I can’t imagine what my life would have been like if I would have gotten out of that abuse a long time ago.

The hard thing though is that Sodom and Gomorrah looked evil, and so did the Egyptians, right? But in our case, he looked, like literally, the best guy ever.

Nadira: The thing that’s discounted or not talked about a ton, and you do a good job of talking about it here. Is, yeah, okay, let’s say he is just looking at it behind your back, lying to you and coercing and manipulating you. Well, what are the effects of that on the family? It doesn’t happen in a black hole by itself. It’s not an isolated event. It affects how he treats you and the children. It affects how he sees you and the children.

And It affects so many areas of your life, your time, your money, it’s not an isolated thing. It affects everyone. My ex-husband getting aroused around our children. And he would grab our boy’s testicles. I told counselors, and guess what? There’s not been one report about it. No one’s done anything about it. He’s told them because when he “was in recovery,” all that was out in the open. I mean, we probably told ten therapists. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Milton Magnus model. We did that too.

Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry. We’ve heard horror stories here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery from women talking about addiction therapists. But we’ve also heard horror stories from abuse recovery therapists as well.

Nadira: Well, one of the reasons you need to get safe right now, I’ve learned from you, is that when he is abusive, there’s so much that you don’t even realize is covert emotional abuse. Because it’s all foggy. In my opinion, you need separation so you can begin to see more clearly.

Nadira: Like with children who have been abused, let’s say it is a father, uncle or grandfather, like a relative. That maybe the family wants them to see eventually again. They’ll advise the parents, like, that the child needs to not be in a relationship with that person for at least a year. They need to literally get physically away from the abuser. So they can get clear on what happened.

I still can’t see clearly what’s going on. I mean, believe it or not, in the horrors of our story, I still wanted the marriage and a family. Because there are pieces that I love. After all, I married him, right?

Anne: Me too. No woman wants a divorce.

Nadira: But then addiction treatment made all these promises and hopes. And then my ex-husband was like a star treatment performer, so I had all this hope too. I’m well versed in addiction, because we’ve had so many experts that did so many models. And we’ve used polygraphs. We went to a really reputable treatment center, et cetera, et cetera. And you know, the whole thing about addiction is that he’s sort of a victim himself of his compulsive behavior and can’t stop.

We don’t ever put that same label on a domestic violence person. In other words, we don’t say to someone who physically abuses their family members, oh, well, you can’t stop and it’s compulsive. You don’t have the power to stop that. We expect them to stop that behavior. Or they will go to jail.

Nadira: With addiction, we don’t expect them to necessarily stop. There’s a lot of empathy and a lot of just like, well, do your best and you know, keep coming back. But we don’t put that same kind of pressure on addiction. We treat it as a addiction, that it’s a problem that they’re powerless over. However, if it’s domestic abuse, it’s completely different. I think there’s a huge disconnect.

Anne: Yeah, at the beginning, you read a brochure from a domestic violence shelter outlining these behaviors. So there’s a huge disconnect between the addiction industrial complex and abuse experts, because the addiction industrial complex does not recognize it as abuse. And then one of the reasons for that disconnect, apart from the fact that they know squat about abuse, is that abusers are manipulative.

And when they get caught. They have a “reason” for why they did it. They say things like I’m so broken, or I was abused as a kid. We all know someone who was abused as a kid, and they’re not an abuser. It is a lie that it caused him to be abusive. He chose to be abusive. And the addiction industry has decided to take these lies at face value. And they’ve made an entire industry around it. I mean, you and I felt shame. We felt a ton of shame.

But we didn’t abuse our own children. There are no excuses for this. They are too unsafe for their wife and children, the end. Like it does not have to be this complicated. It is just abuse. And he hides it because it’s covert emotional abuse.

Nadira: It doesn’t have to be so complicated. He lied to me. He manipulated, and it affected our whole lives. I mean, it’s totally affected our socioeconomic status. Everything’s changed in our life, and our children have been abused. And yet, he’s considered a addict, not an abuser.

Anne: And that’s wrong. That’s why I started podcasting. And that’s why I’m on this mission. I want to educate women about abuse. If you’re in a relationship with an active user, he is abusive. And you are a victim of his abuse. I’ve interviewed so many women, and they tell me over and over again, the behaviors they are experiencing. They’re all things that are easily identifiable as abuse by abuse experts.

And after interviewing all these women over the years, I know personally that the addiction model is not protecting victims of abuse. It is not.

Nadira: Well, if I had your podcast 10 years ago, I would have had tools to say, no, this is not about he said, she said. Or how do we love each other better? Or the five love languages or any of that. I married an abuser. I don’t know about you, but I grew up thinking, if you’re married to an abusive man, he hits you and yells at you. But mine’s the most subversive type. If you’re a listener and you can relate to me in that. You know, he didn’t really smack me around. I have no bruises or broken fingers. He didn’t yell at me.

Nadira: He was aggressive and argumentative. He lied to me, manipulated and coerced me. He told me at one point, true story, that he was always four steps ahead of me. Four, think about that. Think about being four steps ahead of someone. They do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this.

That’s insane, if I had that, I could have identified it. Because again, I was married to Mr. Nice Guy, Mr. I have a smile on my face while I’m getting aroused with the children. The effects on our children and family have been grotesque. It’s really bad, right?

Anne: Yeah, it’s horrific. You have been through so much. Not just his abuse, but all the abuse from the therapists who were not helping. And clergy who were not protecting you. I’m so sorry. I’m so glad that you found my podcast.

Nadira: So this has been monumental for me. Because we spent thousands of dollars, tons of time, and just every resource trying to help my ex-husband recover from addiction. It was the wrong path, honestly. But with that, your podcast and listening to the guests on your podcast have helped me wake up to this is just an abusive person. And to treat the whole thing from a different perspective.

One of the things about your podcast, you know, it’s called Betraya Trauma Recovery. So I’ve recommended it to several friends who have been abused. But everyone thinks it’s about just betrayal, right? And I tell everyone it’s not, but that’s the thing. I think about it a lot, by the way.

Nadira: Pornography, you know, is it freedom of choice or just abuse? Because that’s the big thing about it. People say it’s a first amendment thing, right? Like it’s freedom of speech. But if everybody came together, you and everybody came together. And talked about, in our culture, we’re allowing this abusive, destructive, national health crisis. We literally have a national health crisis on our hands. The masses aren’t educated.

Anne: Everywhere I go, I say it is an abuse issue. It’s not a first amendment rights issue. or an addiction issue. It’s not a sex issue. It is an abuse issue. It always needs to be addressed from an abuse perspective. When I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery in my area, all the women dealing with their husband’s use were labeled as having betrayal trauma.

And so part of what I wanted to do in labeling this podcast and the organization Betrayal Trauma Recovery was take that term and turn it into what it really is. We are healing from abuse. So I’m trying to make the term mean what it should mean. Which is when you are recovering from betrayal trauma, you are recovering from abuse. And the reason you’re recovering from abuse is because any betrayal of this type is abuse.

Anne: It could be called abuse recovery. But so many people right now don’t see it as abuse. And so instead, they say, Oh, she’s suffering from betrayal trauma. Then they go down the addiction route. And I wanted to be like, anyone looking for stuff on betrayal trauma, or going down the addiction route, I wanted them to find this podcast. So that they could get the truth, instead of spending years and hundreds of thousands of dollars going down the wrong path.

So I wanted to make Betrayal Trauma Recovery the place where any woman emotionally or psychologically abused. Or the victim of coercion could come and get the help she needed. Thank you for sharing your story today. We appreciate your insights.

Are you asking yourself, “Is my husband hiding money?” If you suspect he might be keeping secrets, including financial ones, it’s important to recognize the signs. From sneaky spending habits to secret accounts, there are common tactics some use to hide things from their partners. This quiz will help you uncover if he’s lying in general, giving you the insight you need to determine whether money is part of the equation.

Is your husband secretive about finances? Does he avoid discussing expenses or where he is? Is it hard for you to get clear answers about what he is doing? Do you notice unusual transactions or missing funds? Financial dishonesty in marriage is a form of domestic abuse, because the intent is to control information and steal a wife’s power and agency. His actions could even be fraudulent, posing harm to others and implicating you.

If you suspect your husband is hiding money or lying to you about finances or anything else, keep a journal of your suspicions and conversations. When it comes to finances, it’s important to carefully examine bank statements, credit card bills, and other financial documents in order to identify any inconsistencies. Comparing your husband’s behavior and your accounts can help you understand what’s really going on.

If you believe your husband is hiding money from you or someone else, it’s crucial not to discuss it. After all, if he is dishonest, he’s already aware of his actions, and raising the issue could backfire. It may alert him to your concerns and lead to more calculated attempts to deceive you and others. Proceed carefully to protect yourself.

To see what’s going on without talking to him, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop will give you thought, communication, and boundary strategies to determine what’s going on. Without putting yourself at risk for his continued lies and manipulation.

It’s important to recognize that hiding money or lying about finances isn’t just about secrecy; rather, it’s about control. In fact, financial abuse is a serious form of domestic abuse, as it limits your independence and freedom. If your husband uses finances to manipulate or control you, know that you’re not at fault, and there are resources available to help you.

We have daily, online Group Sessions where women can talk about their suspicions and learn what to do to protect themselves. Check out the Group Session schedule. We’d love to see you in a session TODAY.

Anne: I have Victoria Ellen on today’s episode. A Hulu show called Scam Goddess highlighted her story in season one, episode six. The Royal Racket. Although Victoria looks like a successful career woman, she led a difficult life. Behind the scenes, she spent more than a decade relentlessly pursuing justice for her children in a battle that led to the Ohio Supreme Court and beyond. Her husband lied about everything, including hiding money and committing fraud.

She started as a divorced single mother struggling to get by after escaping an abusive man. She and her children spent years in therapy to overcome the trauma they endured. After traveling that bumpy road, Victoria became an award winning business woman, a happily married wife and a proud mother to two thriving college students. She’s here to share some of her story. Welcome, Victoria.

Victoria Ellen: Thank you, Anne. Thank you so much for having me.

Anne: So you wrote your experience in your book, Painting in the Rain, A True Story of Trickery and Triumph. How courageous of you to put your story to paper. In fact, you have a Hulu episode about your story, Scam Goddess, season one, episode six. The Royal Racket is the episode name. Can you talk about why you wanted to share your story?

Victoria Ellen: Yes, you know, I just wanted to help other people. I had struggled for years, felt alone. And I really didn’t know which way to turn. I hoped that if I shared my memoir, perhaps I could help others struggling through their journey to freedom.

Victoria Ellen: When I first met my ex-husband, I was very young. I was 19 years old, very impressionable and he was 20. So we were just young and in love. He was Mr. Charisma, liked by everyone, fun, outgoing and seemed to have the world by the tail. Both of us participated in church.

My world was school, church and family all growing up. It didn’t change once I met him, and I would say now looking back, he had cult like behavior. He started his own cult after I divorced him, but you know, early on everything was happy go lucky. Really, he just swept me off my feet with the love bombing. And how wonderful he would treat me. And how God told him I would be his wife.

Anne: When did you start to notice if something felt off? And how did you define it at the time, not knowing what you were dealing with? Did you wonder,” is my husband hiding money along with other things?”

Victoria Ellen: Actually my mother started seeing some red flags. She was very concerned for me. The controlling behavior started early on, lots of secrets. But I had never been in a serious relationship like this. And so, I wasn’t thinking, Oh my, these are big red flags. I was just thinking like, oh, this is new. And there was a lot of emotion tied around it.

Because I’m white, I’m a Caucasian woman. And he is an African American man. I was raised in a rural area in Ohio in the 90s. And even then, you didn’t see a lot of biracial interracial dating. So, many people had opinions about that.

Victoria Ellen: And I wasn’t sure if people were really genuinely concerned about me, if my red flags were valid, or if it was all rubbish. Because he was black, I was white, and the rest is left out there for people to make their own story about. But you know, I was completely under the spell. I drank the poison and in full blown deception land. Is my husband hiding money? yes, and other things. And didn’t listen to anyone, unfortunately.

I ended up pregnant while we were dating, and I pulled away from him during my second trimester. Because the first trimester seemed like a whirlwind, and I really couldn’t think. I had everyone telling me what I should do with my life. I had no idea what I should do with my life. And so I tried to take a moment to step away and get clear. I started thinking like, this isn’t normal. This isn’t right. There are many things here that are concerning to me.

But he started slowly working his way back. He sent gifts and cards, how much he wanted to see the ultrasounds, and check on the baby. It looked like oh, I just want to take care of you and the baby. And I don’t want you to worry about anything. I don’t want you to have to work or do anything outside the home. I just want you to stay with our child. And it all seemed, like, oh, this is the wholesome, American family dream.

Like we’re going to get married, have a family, and live happily ever after. So, I let him back in, in the last trimester, and he quickly whisked me off to get married.

Victoria Ellen: Within days of being married, I realized I had made the wrong decision. He was extremely controlling. He controlled every area of my life. I was not allowed to speak on the phone with my family, without supervision from him. I wasn’t allowed to leave the home. My keys were often hidden. I couldn’t hop in the car and go somewhere.

My circle was very small. He controlled every area of my life down to what I ate. Whether I could open the drapes on the windows and just let some sunshine in. Really disgusting, despicable behavior. My last ditch effort was to go to our pastor and ask her to meet with us, because I was planning on an escape. I just didn’t know how to do it and I thought maybe she could help us.

We were in financial shambles, and the church helped us dig our way out. I still wasn’t thinking, “is my husband hiding money?” It was gone. They helped with a month or two of back rent, electricity and water, so we could have everything turned back on. However, he did not like the fact that I, you know, ousted him.

Anne: Oh, I am so sorry. It’s so hard to go for help, and it makes things worse, you know? For instance, everyone will tell a victim that intensive couple therapy will help, or clergy can help him see the light, so to speak. And even if he does change his behavior, she’ll later discover it was just more lies.The Living Free workshop talks about what to do to get help.

Victoria Ellen: Absolutely.

Anne: And why it’s so important to follow those strategies to keep yourself safe.

Anne: Did you discover any other abusive behavior?

Victoria Ellen: Yeah. So exploitative content was definitely an issue in our marriage. He was a bodybuilder. And he ended up doing some air quotes, “modeling” with soft pornography. And of course, when I called him out on it, I was “crazy and insecure.” And with the abuse, of course, mental, emotional, and physical abuse, check all the boxes. Including, is my husband hiding money? As well, my son started displaying signs of sexual abuse as a 2-year-old, and I was pregnant with our second child.

And I’m sad to say that the justice system needs huge, massive reform. I was involved in a custody battle initially for three and a half years. As a single mother, with those two children fighting relentlessly to protect them because they were being abused. And the judge was clearly swayed in his favor. She seemed to have a personal affection for him, which was odd in our case, and I was not able to get her moved off of it.

He was gone for about 10 years after that initial 3. 5 years in litigation with the custody and the courts. When he came back, he wanted to reestablish parenting time. This started the next seven years of litigation. So we were involved in three different court cases. One, I represented myself as my own attorney in domestic relations court. A second case where my current husband had filed for adoption of the children. My husband won at the local level. My ex-husband appealed it.

Victoria Ellen: It went to the 12th district court of appeals. My husband won the right to adopt again at the 12th district court of appeals. My ex-husband appealed it again. Now in the Supreme Court of Ohio, they take 7 percent of the cases, okay? So 93 percent of the time your case will not get taken. We thought those odds were pretty darn good. But my story is so crazy. They ended up taking the case and ended up ruling again in favor of my husband to adopt the children.

They actually wrote new case law in the State of Ohio, specifically regarding this case. The third case we had was a two week federal trial. I worked with the Secret Service and U.S. District attorneys to bring justice to my ex-husband. So we had three court cases going for seven years. It was arduous, to say the least. I was sentenced to jail because my children refused to visit with their father, who was their abuser.

I had children’s services investigations and police reports. Detectives investigated and interviewed the children, and we still could not get the justice system to do what was right. This sheds a little light on why I am so adamant about bringing light to what happens in the court system and why we need reform. I mean, 10 years in litigation, it took a toll on all of us. I think a lot of people operate out of fear.

Because the courts tell them, you’re going to go to jail, and we’re going to take the kids away from you. So it does cause you to think you have to send your children to do these visits or else.

Victoria Ellen: And I was at a point where my children’s well-being was paramount. I would be one of those people who left the country, shaved my head, took on a new alias and started a new life. Because I refused to send my children back into the lion’s den with their perpetrators. My son had six abuse perpetrators by the time he was six years old.

Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry.

Victoria Ellen: Once they articulated who their perpetrators were, they were old enough to tell investigators who it was and explain in detail what had been happening to them. The system is broken. I knew it was broken, and that’s why we were tied up for so long, because I refused to give up. My ex-husband relentlessly used the court system to drive me through the mud.

Financially drain me, emotionally drain me to force me to sit in a courtroom and look at him when I didn’t want anything to do with him. It was sick. And we all know this now. I believe the court system needs to do something drastic. I don’t know what type of revolution we need. But these judges and magistrates need more education on narcissism, coercive control, manipulation and the effects of it.

Not only on the ex, the person raising these children, but also on the children, they’re going to grow up someday. I hope they could be successful adults and contribute positively to society. But when they’re relentlessly dragged through the mud, year after year, it’s hard to raise healthy, happy adults.

Anne: Yeah that’s the thing about divorcing a narcissist they then can like abuse by the justice system. They can use the justice system to abuse you. Because you shouldn’t even have to be there. You’re just trying to protect your kids. The fact that you’re dragged in and have to pay money to defend against nothing. Because you didn’t do anything is crazy. It’s so expensive and time consuming.

Having been through it myself, it is maddening that the courts can upend people’s lives in this way. Just because someone is not in prison does not mean they’re an appropriate parent.

Victoria Ellen: Correct, absolutely, it seems like nothing matters. It doesn’t matter if you abuse your child, if you don’t pay child support, if you’re mentally abusive, physically abusive, check all the boxes. It doesn’t matter. The magistrate said to me, even bad parents get to see their kids. I mean, what an indictment on the judicial system.

Anne: Exactly, if it were a stranger, that stranger may be put in jail. But at the very least, no one would want that child to be in proximity to that stranger. At this point, did you also start questioning, “is my husband hiding money?”

Victoria Ellen:My husband and I were just day and night doing recon online. Trying to find any lead that we could regarding the life of my ex husband and what he might be up to. I knew he had picked up three felonies for fraud in previous years. But we couldn’t find anything on him, not where he was working. He drove cars not registered to him. Now, I’m thinking, is my husband hiding money? Evidence showed he was.

Victoria Ellen: He was driving luxurious cars, flashing a lot of expensive jewelry, things that would lead you to believe he was financially sound or successful in some people’s minds. So we just started trying to figure it out. We kept coming up empty. And one day I reached out to one of the victims in his first court case on fraud, where he has three felonies. And they told me that my ex husband used aliases. That he was not only a pastor now, but also posing as a prince of Ghana, Africa.

Anne: Wow.

Victoria Ellen: So I used all these aliases in Google. It was like a magic trick. His face started popping up everywhere. I started finding all these shell companies that he was operating. These businesses were under this magic key. And then I started gathering as much evidence as possible. Finally, I knocked on enough doors and went to enough people. I put together a file and filed a motion for a new child support order. Is my husband hiding money? I found that was true.

I was the only person with financial access, because I had two children with him previously. So this was another way for us to keep pressure on him. We had been in litigation at this point, like 5, 6 years. With all this nonsense, we were running out of money. It was outrageous. So I’d been in court long enough that I could fumble my way through hold my own.

My husband convinced me to be my own attorney. And so I went to court and had an exhibit book. I worked through that exhibit book for an hour and 40 minutes. I had my ex-husband on cross examination.

Victoria Ellen: If you know anything about someone with narcissistic personality disorder, they love to talk about themselves. So I have a huge exhibit book full of pictures and documents of my ex-husband. He just kept flipping through it and was so excited to talk about all this and go through the exhibit books. He truly believed this plan and strategy he’d hatched, that this life he lived for seven years, was foolproof. Like, “nobody’s going to catch me.”

I’m above the law. I’ll never be held accountable for anything. Everybody believes I’m a prince, prophet, pastor, and CEO, COO. This thing is like Fort Knox, it’s locked up tight. Like no one can catch me. And that conceited, arrogant attitude of I’m above everyone, and everything, is the thing that actually helped us win that case. Because he thought he couldn’t be exposed. And he was exposing himself for an hour and 40 minutes. Is my husband hiding money? He was.

I literally had documentation of these businesses that he started in Ohio, and he signed them Prince Daryl Adepo. So he thought I’ll just use that. It says I’m a prince, a descendant of royalty in Africa. So I can just continue operating like this. But from the prior crime he had committed, he wasn’t even allowed to have a Series 6 or a Series 7, it’s a license. Financial advisors and investment brokers, would have those types of licensures, and he was posing as an investment broker.

You can’t even get that if you are a convicted felon. I mean, he’s a pastor of a church now, which is just laughable.

Victoria Ellen: He claims to be a prophet, and he claims he’s the CEO and COO. And he’s a prince. So he’s got all this going on, and people are giving him money. So he’s getting the money from the church. And then he’s getting the money from the people that think that they’re investing in his gold mine in Africa that doesn’t even exist. They’re giving him their 401k. They’re selling their house or they’re taking out equity lines of credit against their house to give him money.

Because he’s promising a 30 percent return. That’s where the Ponzi scheme comes in. He’s got all this money, and that’s where all the flashy cars, the Rolexes, the diamond rings, and all the things come from. It’s like, oh, you’re stealing, you’re a thief and an imposter. That makes sense. Okay, now I get it, you didn’t earn any of this. So I ordered the transcripts, and I took the file I had been working on for five years, and I hand delivered them to the feds.

And, they indicted him nine months later on 16 federal charges. Fraud, conspiracy, mail fraud, wire fraud, everything to do with fraud you could possibly imagine. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, and other lies. So it was our mission to expose him. He’s not safe. The lifestyle he lived was absurd.

And the fact that he even pretended he wanted time with these children was laughable, honestly, Because he didn’t want anything to do with the children. He wanted to get to me. The children would be there for visits, and he wouldn’t spend time with them. Because they wouldn’t leave with him.

Victoria Ellen: Any other father with children sitting in front of them for a visit would sit at the table and have a conversation with their children. He did not do that. If the children were going to get in the car and leave with him, he didn’t want anything to do with them. He would say, “I’ll see your mom in court.” So it’s like, this doesn’t have anything to do about reestablishing a relationship with your children. It has to do with control and manipulation.

Anne: Wow, that’s amazing that you got that evidence on, your husband, who was hiding money and a lot more and turned it into the feds.

Victoria Ellen: So this is incredible. We were in a trial for two weeks, which is unheard of, because generally defendants know they are caught. They know they don’t have a case, and it’s pretty much closed book. It’s like you’re guilty, plead guilty, and here’s your sentence, you’re done. So the fact that this case even went to a trial is unheard of. This was on the tail end of COVID. There were 17 victims and witnesses through those two weeks. The jury found him guilty of 10 of the 16 charges.

The U.S. district attorneys dropped three charges. So he was guilty of 10 charges. And I was able to speak at the sentencing hearing. The U.S. district attorneys asked me if I would be willing to say something, and there was also another victim that spoke that day. After that, the judge said he was considering an upward departure, and the rules are a little different in the federal court system. So there are specific time frames assigned to certain crimes.

Victoria Ellen: So, if you commit fraud, you’re supposed to get X amount of time. If you have priors, there’s this formula they use. Basically to generate how long they think you should go to prison. Well, the U.S. district attorneys were requesting 10 to 14 years for the crimes committed. Of course, the defendant’s attorney claimed he shouldn’t get any time. Because how could he pay back all his victims, these hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, lots of it.

Anne: Oh, if he was in jail. How could he defraud other people to pay for the other people he defrauded?

Victoria Ellen: Yeah, exactly. He stole $250, 000 from one man during the first case. And he never paid him back, and he continued to steal from people. And never did a day in jail for that either. So you know, this isn’t going to happen. So the judge says, I’m looking at an upward departure. Which means that the defendant should get 10 to 14 years. I’m considering going above that, because the crimes are so heinous and he is so despicable.

You should have seen the secret service and federal marshals that lined up in the gallery that day to watch the circus take place. Him on the stand doubling down the fact that he was a prince, that he had a gold mine in Africa. And he really was going to pay back all his friends. They’re not victims, they’re his friends. It was wild. The judge literally threw the book at him and sentenced him to 20 years in federal prison.

Anne: Wow, oh, I bet you felt so relieved.

Victoria Ellen: It was surreal, I couldn’t believe it.

Victoria Ellen: For the 20 years we had fought him, he got 20 years in federal prison. And I just felt like it was a year for every year that we had been to hell and back with him. And exposed him, is my husband hiding money? Definitely.

Anne: Yeah, can you talk about the difference in your experience with the criminal court and the civil court? Women can get protective orders. Sometimes it’s difficult to get a protective order, but it’s not as hard, I would say, to get a protective order as it is to protect your children from the abuser. Police sometimes follow up on protective order violations or fraud, but in the civil court with custody.

There is nothing, it feels like, that anybody can do to protect children from abuse. So, can you talk about the difference between those two types of courts?

Victoria Ellen: Domestic relations court fails miserably when it comes to protecting children. And they continued to fail us year after year until my children were emancipated. They never did come through, ever. Not one time. For either child. It’s just very sad. I haven’t been involved with criminal courts at a local level. I’ve only been involved with the feds. They were serious about the law, and they weren’t listening to the lies, and were very black and white.

And domestic relations courts are trying to take into account all these factors. And I would just encourage anybody in the court system to document everything. I didn’t have phone conversations with him. Everything was via text message because text messages are admissible for court evidence. So are emails, and also recordings or videos.

Victoria Ellen: If you can document these things, people will start reading between the lines and see that this person isn’t who they are portraying themselves to be. Because they are creating their own reality. They’re just telling the story. I mean, my ex-husband literally created this life that was not real, did not exist, and doubled down on it. And all the lies. Is my husband hiding money? Yes.

And now he’s spending 20 years in federal prison. Because he tried to convince everybody that the lie was the truth. Unfortunately, everybody doesn’t have the same opportunity that I had at the federal level.

Anne: They’re just dealing with local courts, and it can be a daunting task to continuously go to court over and over again and not have your voice heard. Yeah, it’s very discouraging. Also, I talk to many victims who’ve documented everything. They have proof, and that hasn’t swayed the courts either. I had 40 pages of documentation, and it didn’t do anything. So strategy is so important, especially if you’re wondering “is my husband hiding money?”

That’s why I put the strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Again, you can get more information by clicking this link. It will teach you how to do it step by step, so that you have the documentation, but also how to use it strategically. For example, I learned in my case that those 40 pages, the guardian ad litem actually used it as proof that I tried to hurt my ex. Because what other loving co-parent would document 40 pages of child abuse against their co-parent?

Victoria-Ellen: Oh my oh, that’s what I’m talking about. It’s maddening, it’s maddening. It’s enough to send you over the edge. I’m not kidding, it’s crazy.

Anne: I’ve had a lot of times, like yelling and screaming in my own house by myself, not in court, jumping up and down. So, how can this be happening? None of this is even sensical in any way shape or form. And it’s so frustrating. Your story can help bring this to light. All women listening to this podcast are interested in reforms in the justice system to ensure that we can protect children from abuse. I’m so glad you’re safe now. You are a warrior. You’re amazing.

Victoria Ellen: Thank you, thank you. Well, it takes one to know one, and you know, we just have to bind together. We can’t stand by and watch evil prevail.

Anne: That’s what it is, like legit evil. They know what they’re doing and doing it on purpose. In fact, they know they’re hurting people and don’t care.

Victoria Ellen: They don’t care, no. Well, when you lack empathy and compassion, what else is there? Just to wreck people’s lives? What you’re doing is making a huge difference, Anne. I appreciate you standing in the gap and helping educate others. Because I didn’t have anything like this when I left 25 years ago. Thank you for fighting the good fight.

Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story.

Victoria Ellen: Thank you so much for having me.

“Am I paranoid? Why do I feel like my husband is cheating on me?”

Laurie Hall, author of An Affair of the Mind, couldn’t prove her husband was cheating. But no matter how hard she tried, the feeling of dread wouldn’t go away. Laurie shares her powerful story.

If you feel dread about your husband, it would be that you’re experiencing one or more of the 19 types of emotional abuse. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out.

There are behavioral patterns that can indicate your husband is cheating, including:

However, it’s important to understand that for many women, including Laurie, there are NO signs of infidelity, at least for a time. Just a feeling that something is “off”.

Rather than exert emotional energy to find definitive proof, we suggest women enroll in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, which will help you determine your husband’s character step by step, without exposing you to more lies or manipulation.

Please seek support as you work through difficult feelings, including the dread that your husband is cheating on you. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are a safe space for you to talk through your situation, ask questions, and receive the validation and compassion that you deserve.

Anne: Today, I have Laurie Hall with me. She’s the author of An Affair of the Mind. She wrote the first book about addiction written from the perspective of the partner. And it broke ground in a world that saw the partner as codependent and just as sick, in her own way, as the addict, which we know isn’t true.

And Laurie knew wasn’t true, even then. Laurie refused to accept that view and advocated for partners. She said they were betrayed and traumatized, when they feel like their husband is cheating.

Laurie you talk about how prayer helped you discover your husband’s addiction. Can you talk about that?

Laurie: Yes, this is a great place to start the discussion of how this whole issue can lead to a spiritual crisis. Because I knew there were problems in my marriage, I didn’t know what I was dealing with.

My ex-husband grew up in the mission field. He had a White House security clearance when I met him. Everyone who knew him said, Oh, he’s a super nice, squeaky clean guy. So I really thought I was marrying a boy scout, but there was just this sense that something wasn’t right. And I kept trying to figure out what it was.

And I went to my church for help. Because as a young Christian woman, I wanted to know how to do marriage God’s way. They told me I needed to submit more, that I needed to support him more, that I needed to pray for him more and every remedy they gave me. They put me further and further under. At one point, I thought, well, they said you’re too strong. If you were not as strong, he would be stronger.

Laurie: And I just kept thinking, well, wait a minute. I’ve read all the books, become a fascinating woman, a total woman. I’ve become the he’s from Home Depot, she’s from Walmart woman, and nothing was working. And it was still just this sense that something was wrong. I decided to put all the outside advice outside and spend time back in scripture. Which I already was a student of the Bible, but I was reading the Bible based on what other people told me it meant.

So I began to go into the word, and I started to pray. You know Lord, if I’m otherwise minded, Christ Jesus shows me what it is and shows me what’s going on in my marriage. Because I know there’s something, and I don’t know what it is. But I know you know what it is, because you are the God of all truth. So show me what the truth is. I prayed this for years. Part of what happened was that I came to a different understanding.

That I had of who God is before I could even grasp the truth of if my husband is cheating. So I began to see God in a bigger, more empowering, more loving way as I studied the word, and then I decided to start fasting. And so the first time I fasted, I got this impression in my head that was almost like a voice saying to me, there’s three problems in your marriage.

Laurie: The first one is your husband’s taken $350 that doesn’t belong to him. The second is he’s committing adultery. And the third is that he has a lot of pride. At that point, I was like, okay, this is what comes of trying to fast and pray. You’ve now gone completely nuts. Because you’re hearing a voice. I was like, why did you do this to yourself? Because obviously none of that can be true. I married a boy scout, and sure enough, shortly after that, I found out about the $350.

He confessed he had a lot of pride, and that left this little nasty thing in the middle, which was the adultery. And I said, I think you’re committing adultery. And he said, oh no, I would never do that. You’re a horrible person for believing that. Why would you even accuse me of that? You’re probably the one doing it. I continued to pray and seek the Lord. And eventually I started having dreams, and I started having dreams where I would see exactly what was going on.

Then I decided that what I was going to do was accept that this is the truth. Whether I had any evidence. Because my husband hid everything. Even his best friend who worked with him didn’t know what he was doing. I began to journal. I said, I feel like my husband is cheating me. And I don’t know what to do about it, but I’m turning it all over to God.

Laurie: And one day as I was praying, the phone rang and it was a woman I barely knew. She said, God has heard your prayers and seen your tears, and he’s going to heal you. And within …

Anne: Wow.

Laurie: … an hour, there was a phone call from a credit card company I did not know. My husband had a credit card, and there was a past due payment, and that’s how the truth came out that my husband was cheating.

Anne: Wow, I am so impressed. Because I had dreams, nightmares, and I just thought I was crazy. And I have this like super intense sense of dread that I told my husband about. And I was like, I have the worst sense of dread. I think something bad’s going to happen. And then in the same breath, without listening to him or waiting for his response, I said, ah, I must be crazy, right? I just kind of dismissed it. So I am like, so impressed that you were like, no, I will take these dreams and feelings as the truth. That is gutsy.

Laurie: Well, you know, let me back up and tell you how not gutsy I was and what actually forced me to that position. Because just like you, I thought I was going nuts. I actually one day climbed into bed, put the covers over my head, and started running my finger up and down my mouth. Like I said, I am going crazy because part of me says there’s something wrong and this is what it is. And the other part of me doesn’t know how that could possibly be true.

Laurie: And therefore, I’m choosing to ignore what I’ve asked God to show me. And so I’m going to have to take a giant leaf of faith and say, this is the truth, my husband is cheating. If I’m wrong, hey, I’ll own it, but from here on out, I’m not second guessing myself anymore. So I get it, girlfriend. I was there. It was that period when I was going to go crazy that made me say, yes, I’m accepting the truth.

Anne: Your story is so incredible. I mean now, many women have determined their husband’s true character through the steps I teach in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workship. And you can get more information about that by clicking on this link. It will help you determine your husband’s true character. And many women have said they’ve prayed and been led to the Living Free Workshop, and it helped them see the truth of what’s going on.

But back in your day, you didn’t have any resources like Betrayal Trauma Recovery, or anything else. And so you just decided to trust yourself. And that is incredible. That’s one thing that the Living Free Workshop does teach women to do. Like how to get in touch with their sacred internal warning system, so they can discover the truth of their situation.

Laurie: I completely agree with you on that. Can we say it? How awful is it that your worst nightmare is actually true? Okay. I mean, this is not the thing you wake up to and accept. Okay. It’s an awful, awful thing. I mean, the ground drops underneath your feet. On the one hand, you’re happy to know you weren’t nuts.

Laurie: On the other hand, you’re like, I wished I would have been nuts, because this new reality is something I don’t want to deal with, but we are not trained how to live in the spirit. This was a big aha for me, because when I realized I have a body that has senses in it. It has the sense of touch, sight, taste, hearing, smell. And through those senses, I experience the physical world. I have a soul, which allows me to know my internal world, and those senses are my mind, my will, and my emotions. So I shouldn’t ignore that my gut is telling me my husband is cheating.

But I also have a spirit, and it is through my spirit that I know God, and that I experience others in a transcendent way, where deep connects to deep. And this has nothing to do with what I can see with my eyes. But it is an inner knowing that we have, and our spirit senses are conscience, intuition, and communion. And we’re designed to operate from the spirit into the soul and out into the body. So when we intuit something, it is God speaking to us, the absolute truth.

And the idea would be that if we’re operating in a healthy way, we take that information into our mind. And provide instructions for our mind based on what our conscience tells us. This is a good situation, or this is not a good situation. And then the will tells the body what to do in response. And as the body follows these instructions, our emotions are at peace because we’re in integrity.

Laurie: One of the ways we can know that we’re not in integrity. And I don’t mean this in the sense that we’re intentionally doing something we know is wrong, but where we are second guessing our spirit. Because when our mind doesn’t have the facts, we argued, spirit and the mind argue. You know what I mean? It’s like, no, that can’t be true. I have no evidence. Yes, it is true because God sees it as it is, but our mind doesn’t see it. I mean, I only saw exploitative material in our home one time. And we were married for 33 years.

So I had no physical evidence. As you know, this particular addiction, there’s no needle marks, there’s no telltale breath. It’s very easy to hide.

Anne: Yeah.

Laurie: When your emotions are a mess, it is a sign that your spirit is arguing with your soul. Because your soul doesn’t have any facts to back up what your spirit is sensing. And so you’re second guessing yourself. But if you say what I’m sensing, I’m going to accept that as true until proven otherwise. And then start lining your actions up with that, you will find peace in the midst of the storm.

Anne: Wow, this is cool, to accept that you could be right about your husband cheating. I love you.

Laurie: I love you. It only took 20 years to figure that out.

Anne: When did you write your book? What year was it?

Laurie: It came out in 1996.

Anne: 1996, man, I’m just thinking, I know so many women who are your age or older who went through this. And they, of no fault, didn’t know what was going on, didn’t understand it, and were abused for years.

Anne: I am just in awe that you’re part of this generation of women caught in all cultural issues. All the misogynistic things that at the time were common that you couldn’t even see. And you had this head on your shoulders to see this thing straight. You’re like a hero. You’re my Shero.

Good job, way to go. I think many other women saw it, but they didn’t write a book. Many women kind of figured out what was going on. But then it was super scary to speak out about it back then. And it still is now. I mean, sometimes people think I’m crazy. So once you knew about your husband’s cheating, did you go to your church for help? And if you did, what happened?

Laurie: Yes, I did. As a woman of faith, I wanted to handle this God’s way. I can remember saying, what are the rules? What are the rules? What are the rules? And so I went to my church. I entered a buzz saw when I did that. And I was told things like, well, I needed to pray for him. I was the more spiritual and mature and therefore it was my responsibility to pray for my husband.

And then if I would just pray for him and trust God, he would become a man who would stand at the gates. Okay, they quoted proverbs for me. That was my job. To create that in him, I was told I needed to be more available. I was told I had to be more submissive, that no matter what he said or did, I needed to trust God in the middle of all that.

Laurie: I can remember sitting there in my pastor’s office, and I just wanted him to say, adultery is wrong. That’s all I wanted him to say. He didn’t have to give any magic solutions, or I just wanted him to say to me what has happened to you is wrong. And instead, he told me that it was obvious why my husband was doing this, because I was such a strong woman. And he was totally lined up with my husband. I can remember going to a Christian counselor, and my husband had taken some money from one of our children.

And as part of his making amends, he was supposed to apologize and return the money. Just before we went to see the therapist the next time, this child came to me and said, you know, dad still hasn’t dealt with this issue.

And this child was sobbing. I mean, it’s breaking my mother’s heart to see my child suffer like that. So we went to see the therapist, my ex-husband went in first. And when I got in, the therapist was thrilled, because my husband had cooked up this story about how he had gone to the child and apologized, and given the money back, everything was great. I sat there with my mouth open, and I said, no, that’s not what happened. He’s like, What? And I said, no, none of that happened.

This is where the church is so naive. And believe me, I’m not trying to slam Christianity. This man said, well, he wouldn’t lie to me. And what he was saying is that he lies to you because you’re too hard on him. He didn’t believe the my truth, that I knew he was cheating.

Laurie: You’re not on his team. And if you would just be on his team, he wouldn’t need to lie to you. But I’m on his team, and he knows I’m on his team. So he wouldn’t lie to me.

Anne: Like you’re the problem. You caused his lying, right?

Laurie: Exactly, that’s it. I’ve received so many letters, and so many tell similar stories. I’ve had women suicidal because their church disciplined them because they dared to try to get help. Also I’ve had women who were excommunicated. They’re shamed. They’re made to be accountable to another woman in the church for whether they’re properly submitting and praying for their husband. And are they giving their husband it? Because of course, that’s a woman’s responsibility. You know, don’t withhold yourself.

And I want to believe these people are well intentioned, although at some point I began to doubt. Especially when I saw the size of the problem in the leadership of the church, because many, many, many pastors have this issue. They’re so naive about how real life operates that they have this fantasy that if we just do A, B, and C, then everything will be okay. And that marriage is all about roles instead of relationship.

So they teach marriage as roles, and therefore, you know, the husband is ahead of the home. The wife must submit to him. The children must obey the parents. What it does is create dysfunction. Because you don’t learn how to be in a real relationship. When marriage is all about power, who has the most power? There’s no listening, negotiation, conflict resolution, and there’s no way to be truly intimate.

Laurie: How to recognize and celebrate each other’s strengths, and how to support each other in weakness. Because if somebody is weak, if your husband is cheating, especially if they’re at the top, everybody’s going to be scared because they’re vulnerable. Instead of this is a team effort. let’s pool our resources here.

Anne: I always felt like I was on the same team with my husband, my ex now, but that he was always in competition with me.

Yes, I couldn’t understand that. And I thought, well, we’re on the same team. Like I’m trying to solve a problem. Let’s solve it together. But he didn’t like the resolution of the problem if it wasn’t his idea. And then I found him taking credit for the things I had done. Instead of saying, Oh, my wife did this. She’s amazing. He took credit for it himself.

I started to be really bothered. We’re not on a team. Like he sees me as some kind of minion, like to set him up higher and higher. Or the better I look, the better he looks, not the better we look. Does that make sense?

Laurie: It totally does. You can see how that worldview feeds into the narcissism of the addict.

Anne: Yeah.

Laurie: The goal is to be admired, right?

Anne: Right, and the more you love them and forgive them, submit and serve them, and all those things, the more their abusive behaviors get them what they want. The reason why men use these abusive behaviors, manipulation, lying, etc., is because they get stuff out of it. If they didn’t get anything out of it, they wouldn’t do it.

Anne: Number one, and number two, unless they stop getting something out of it, they’re not going to stop.

Laurie: That’s right.

Anne: Yeah, it’s working for them. So the whole love forgiveness service type stuff, which are all wonderful values. But the abuser just continues to get all the things they want, and they have none of the accountability. In fact, the women are held accountable, like what you said.

Laurie: Yes, and that’s a sad thing. You know, these women are going into a church with all male leadership. And this is hard to talk about, Anne, because, I mean, my relationship with God is important to me. And I don’t want to needlessly put the church in a bad light. I’m just saying, talking to hundreds of women, and there are some pastors who do a fabulous job, fabulous job of supporting women.

But there are some institutional things that happen in the church. In fact, a Barna group survey showed that 57% of pastors and 64% of youth pastors struggle with exploitative material or have struggled with it. She could actually be talking to somebody who’s husband is also cheating and has the same problem her husband has, and not know it. And it becomes like clubbing baby seals. There are these women are so vulnerable. It just breaks my heart what happens.

Anne: Church leadership further abuses them.

Laurie: Yes.

Anne: Yeah, it is painful and it’s wrong.

Laurie: Yes.

Anne: I’m so excited about the time we’re in right now, though, with the Harvey. Is it Weinstein? Weinstein?

Laurie: Harvey Weinstein.

Anne: I don’t know how to say it, but all these women who are being like, I can speak up. And women who are being taken seriously, and women who before people maybe said they were crazy. Now it’s coming out. No, all the things this “crazy” woman said were true. It’s an exciting time. And it’s exciting, because women are becoming healthier and talking about their husbands cheating.

And that will enable and help the men to become healthier too. Because I envision a time where men are accountable for their behaviors. Where they are responsible and fantastic husbands and fathers. And that is what everyone wants. It’s not like we want like, the demise of the male. We just want,

Laurie: We don’t want that.

Anne: No, we want them to step up to the plate and become men.

Laurie: And we want to be women.

Anne: Yeah.

Laurie: I love the idea of being loved. I love the idea of a close relationship with a strong man. That just makes me feel all kinds of feminine. When I’m with a man with good character, who knows how to treat me. Who I can sense is genuine. Now, genuine, not perfect, because if he’s trying to look like he’s perfect, there’s probably a problem.

Anne: It’s like, oh, scary, scary, yeah.

Laurie: So this is how we grow together. This is the beauty God wants for us. And you’re right. We are living in an exciting time, because the cover is being pulled off of this stuff. And more and more will come out.

Laurie: I believe this is the time where God will pull the cover back and give us opportunities to become who he truly created us to be, which is loving beings. I mean, that is what the whole purpose of being here is. It’s about loving one another. You know, those who love live in God. That’s one of the teachings of scripture. And if we’re not loving each other, we’re not even experiencing God in any real way.

Anne: And if we don’t have integrity, we’re not experiencing God in any real way either. The true, like living our truth, living in the truth, right?

Laurie: Absolutely, you bring up such a fabulous point, because I’ve been going to many church conferences. And I’m listening to pastors say that the way we deal with this issue is that we just draw closer to Jesus. We substitute the pleasure of pornography for the pleasure of being with Jesus. I want to say, okay, hello, hello. We’re talking about the way. We’re talking about the truth, we’re talking about the life. First of all, drawing closer to the Lord is about actually living in truth, as you just so brilliantly said, Anne.

It’s about living in what is true. It’s about, as we know, and rely on the love God has for us, and know that we live in love. Then we’re made complete so that we can love others. That it’s about one another, about being close to others. That’s how we truly express our spirituality. And Jesus even said that. He said, when you feed the hungry or the thirsty or clothe the naked, you’re doing that as if you were doing it to me.

Laurie: This thing about a relationship with God, that is some kind of, I want this to come out right. I’m just starting to see this in a bigger way. It’s almost like they’re teaching to replace the fantasy of exploitative material with the fantasy of an imaginary relationship that happens in your mind. Instead of how we treat each other, how we see God all around us right here, right now, and rejoice in that. Love one another and respect one another. You can’t have this respect if your husband is cheating.

Instead of checking out where I’m having a magical relationship in my head, with someone as a substitute for actually having a real relationship with a real human being. And I hope that doesn’t come across as heretical, but I think it’s key because we’re still teaching men to dissociate.

Anne: Yeah. This also has so much to do with if you should stay married after infidelity.

Laurie: To dissociate, because it all happens in their mind, instead of this place of vulnerability where we’re naked before each other, loving each other, and feeling what it is to be truly loved.

Anne: That’s awesome. You’re very emphatic.

Laurie: I am, I feel it so strongly, because I’m sitting here pounding.

Anne: I love it.

Laurie: It’s about learning how to be in a real intimate relationship, without cheating. That’s where the wholeness is.

Anne: Well, if you just respected him more, if you just loved him more, and if you just did more laundry, right?

Laurie: Oh, I had more sex. Don’t forget that part.

Anne: Yeah, oh, that. There’s a leader in our church that said, I’m gonna hammer this, but he said true religion undefiled before God is helping the poor, the widows, and the orphans.

Anne: And these men, through their actions, which are ungodlike, create widows and orphans. They are leaving their wives, or their wives have to say, you can’t be around us anymore because you’re so unhealthy, and cheating and infidelity are abuse. The opposite would be taking care of a woman, so she does not become an affair widow. Making sure you are a good husband and father, so that you do not leave your children fatherless.

And it is based on action, not your ideal version of what you are like, based on all the scriptures you can quote. Or all the prayers that you can say in church to make you look beautiful. It’s actually what your real relationship is with your wife and with your children.

Laurie: Yes.

Anne: Women who are truly loved and cherished love and cherish their husbands. This is why women search for Christian help for infidelity.

Laurie: Yes, they do.

Anne: They love and cherish their husbands, even when their husbands abuse them.

Laurie: Yes, they do.

Anne: They just want their family to work, you know.

Laurie: In fairness, some women are real horror shows. So, I mean, it’s not all in the men. It’s about this whole thing of, you’re right, faith without works is dead. We can talk a good talk, but how do we walk the walk? The church needs a theology of trauma. That understands that the pursuit of justice is a godly pursuit. And one that allows us to reestablish trust where it’s been broken.

Because a theology of trauma understands that there’s a difference between forgiveness and restoration. And between grace and calling a thing a thing, so that grace can much more abound.

Laurie: Now it says in Isaiah 117, To learn to do right, to seek justice, to defend the oppressed, to take up the cause of the fatherless, and plead the case of the widow. And Anne, you’re so right. We are affair widows. The church is called to be salt and light in matters of justice. And if the church would just do this, if they would just stand for living in truth and support what is true. Then I truly believe we could restore families, because there would be a path forward.

Anne: Yeah, there is no path forward without accountability.

Laurie: No.

Anne: None, no one believes us, when we say I feel like my husband is cheating. Well, I appreciate you coming on today. Thank you so much for being here, Laurie.

Laurie: Oh, thank you, Anne. It’s been a real pleasure to talk with you.

Here are some of the most common scriptures on betrayal. Then I’ll dive into an analysis of betrayal—specifically in the context of a husband betraying his wife, using examples from the scriptures of Judas. Here’s what you need to know If you’ve been betrayed and are turning to scripture for guidance.

Psalm 41:9 (ESV)
Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.

Psalm 55:12–14 (ESV)
For it is not an enemy who taunts me—then I could bear it; it is not an adversary who deals insolently with me—then I could hide from him. But it is you, a man, my equal, my companion, my familiar friend. We used to take sweet counsel together; within God’s house we walked in the throng.

Jeremiah 12:6 (ESV)
For even your brothers and the house of your father, even they have dealt treacherously with you; they are in full cry after you; do not believe them, though they speak friendly words to you.

Luke 22:48 (ESV)
But Jesus said to him, “Judas, would you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?”

Ephesians 6:10–11 (ESV)
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.

Psalm 23:1–4 (ESV)
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want… Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

Psalm 101:7–8 (ESV)
No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes. Morning by morning I will destroy all the wicked in the land.

Matthew 6:14–15 (ESV)
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

James 1:2–5 (ESV)
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness… If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach.

Mark 11:25 (ESV)
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Philippians 4:13 (ESV)
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

John 14:6 (ESV) Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Anne: On today’s episode, we’re gonna go over Bible quotes on betrayal. So these are scriptures on betrayal, most of them scriptures about Judas that will teach us what the Bible says about betrayal, what Christ says about betrayal.

One of my favorite parts of this interview was when we talked about what happened at the Last Supper, especially in the context of betrayal in marriage.

Here’s a preview: Let’s just imagine all the people involved with this. They’re all sitting around the table, and you’re like, he’s gonna betray me. In that moment, what did they tell us?

They told us to pray for him. They told us to go to intensive couple therapy. So in that moment where Judas takes the bread, Christ isn’t like, hold on. Can somebody call a couple therapist. He didn’t say like, “Wait, can you guys, hold on, I’m gonna pray so hard. It’s going to fix Judas and I will come out and he is not gonna betray me anymore.” That does not happen. Instead, what does Christ say in that moment?

But before we get to that part, I need to set the stage.

Anne: And I’ve invited a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re gonna call her Jesse. Welcome Jesse.

Jesse: Hi, thanks for having me.

Anne: Before we go on, BTR is interfaith and inter-paradigm. Hopefully, what we talk about today will apply to you. Everyone is welcome here. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session our team understands betrayal, because it happened to them. Jesse
and I happen to be Christian, so we’re gonna share from our own experience. We’re from different denominations, so we’ve had different thoughts about it over the years.

I invited her specifically to talk about how Jesus dealt with betrayal. Because one morning I was studying bible verses on betrayal and I realized, Jesus was betrayed, by an “intimate partner.” Someone on his side, except Christ knew Judas’ character was not the best. Also the juxtaposition between how Christ dealt with Judas, and how he dealt with the Pharisees and the Sadducees, his known enemies.

Christ obviously had righteous disdain for some people. I mean, I’m sure he loved them in a cosmic way, but he really didn’t like them. He wanted people to know that he didn’t like them. He was very direct and called them vipers. And he threw over the money changers in the temple. He called them thieves. He knew they were exploitative.

Jesse: Yes, I was thinking about what the bible quotes about betrayal, and about Judas and his relationship with Jesus. I read an article that mentioned when the disciples are listed in scripture, they’re typically listed in a consistent order, with Peter, James, John and Matthew almost always listed first. Saying that was an indication of the closeness of the relationship. Judas is rarely listed in that way. He was part of the 12, but he wasn’t part of Jesus’ close knit circle.

Anne: But I guess there were lots of people who wanted to be an apostle. Christ didn’t have to pick Judas as an apostle. He’s definitely closer to Jesus than the average person. There are probably lots of people who were like, “Hey, I wanna ride on Christ’s coattails,” and they weren’t chosen as apostles.

In the context of betrayed women. They’re not necessarily close to their husbands. He lives with them. He goes on family trips, they go to church together, but are they actually close? This is something I feel like women instinctively know is a problem. They know they’re not close, and when they try to repair or remedy it, he just says they are.

Jesse: Right, in my case, I always felt part of my husband’s life. I definitely did the labor of caring for the children, caring for the household, and supporting him in his career. We did not have a life together as an intimate couple. We were roommates. Sometimes we were friends. We did travel a lot and did a lot of fun things together. But we did not have a partnership. I was a part of his life.

Anne: In my study of scriptures on betrayal, I wondered if it was like that with Judas. I wonder if Judas thought Christ was part of his life, not the other way around. Like he wanted to be close to Jesus for his own benefit, but not for the gospel. ‘Cause he’s part of a club. I’m like, I’d love to go to a dinner with 12 people where somebody made me food.

You know, I’m thinking about the last supper. Yeah, I wanna be part of that club. I would say that before I realized my ex was lying to me, we weren’t close. Any time I tried to get close, he would be like, “Of course everything’s fine.”

Jesse: Absolutely, it was almost like we were living in two different realities. And I kept trying to pull him into my reality, which was family and building this life together with mutual interests for the benefit of one another. And he was in a different reality. Where pretty much everyone and everything centered around his life and what he wanted to accomplish. We were all supporting actors in his reality.

Anne: Well, and, your husband won’t stop lying to you, so anytime you say, “Hey. Are we a family?” He’s like, “Yeah, we’re a family. It’s all good.”

Anne: While studying the scriptures on Judas, I began to imagine he might have experienced something similar. Where Christ is like, “Hey, you’re gonna betray me.” And Judas is like, “No, I’m not. Everything’s fine, of course we’re unified.” Speaking of that, let’s talk about the prophecies in the context of betrayal. So we’ve got in the Old Testament in Zechariah, people prophesied that Christ will be betrayed. Now anyone could have betrayed him. He was probably betrayed by more than just Judas. I believe these, I’m gonna say “prophecies”, do I believe in prophecy? Yes.

And didn’t we all do these same prophecies? We’re thinking, if he keeps doing this. Then this will happen. Rather than a prophecy, can we think about it as more of a cause and effect? It’s pretty clear.

If you continue to sext your coworker, you are likely to actually have sex with her eventually. I mean, is that a prophecy or is that this leads to this? As wives beholding our husband’s character. We make these types of, I’m gonna say “prophecies.” But do we make them because it’s set in stone, or are we saying this because we desperately want to avoid it? It’s the second answer, he was betraying him, which is how we knew he would betray him.

If you lie, then you’re going to have an affair, but you’re already lying about your affair. This is what the bible says about cheating husbands. And I’m wondering if that was the case with Christ and Judas, where he’s like, “If you keep doing this, you’re gonna betray me.” But the thing he’s doing is already betraying you.

Jesse: Right, Christ is definitely giving Judas the opportunity to turn from his course of action. Christ knew, and he says it to him in such a way that Judas has an opportunity to change. And that’s what I certainly did with my husband. I would let him know about signs I saw that were gonna be damaging to our marriage. I gave him the opportunity to see what I saw, and he rejected it.

Anne: What these scriptures on betrayal show us is that this man who apparently has something about him that makes Jesus want him as a disciple, he’s worth warning.

There are two ways to go about this. There’s the 12 step way, stay on your side of the street. And then there’s the “Christian” way, pray for him, make sure he is not too stressed out, submit to him, and all that. If you’re being betrayed, it’s your fault in some way or another.

I’m like, no, it’s not because Christ was the most perfect person. But we’re not so bad. Like, the things that we do are totally normal and good. Anyone would do them. Just like we’d say, “If you go on this business trip, something bad’s gonna happen.” If Christ was perfect, giving Judas little indicators did not stop Judas from doing it.

Why would any pastor, any therapist, or anybody out there be like, “Oh, the reason why he had this emotional affair was because you guys aren’t close emotionally.” Like, no, it is actually the opposite. We weren’t close emotionally, because he wasn’t coming to you with his emotions. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne: So from Matthew 26, we learned that this was Judas idea. In Matthew 26 :14, it says, “Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,” so not the other way around. It’s not like the chief priests approached Judas. Judas approached them. In 15, “And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him to you?”

And at that point they’re like, 30 pieces of silver. And then in 16 it says, “And from that time he [as in Judas] sought opportunity to betray him.” So it was intentional. He knew he was doing it.

You know what these passages from the Bible on betrayal don’t say. They don’t say it was because Jesus always placed him last or prioritized Peter, James, and John before him. Nowhere does it imply that Judas betrayed Jesus due to a lack of attention. Instead, the scriptures make it clear—Judas made his choice.

Anne: As far as prophecy goes, Christ says in verse 24, “The Son of man goeth as it is written of him:” So yeah, it’s been predicted I’m going to be captured and killed, but then Christ says, “but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.” Meaning, yes, I’m going to be captured and killed. That is true, but you don’t have to do it. Judas didn’t have to do it. Somebody else would’ve done it. There were many people who hated Jesus at this time.

This like, well, “life is full of trials.” Sure, but does your husband have to be the one that causes all your trials? Does your husband have to be the one that makes things difficult? No, he doesn’t. He could make different choices.

I don’t have this so much in my faith, but I hear from others that there’s this like sense that the devil made you do it, so it’s like the devil’s fault when it’s the opposite. The devil didn’t enter into Judas until after he’d made the deal, until after he’d taken action. So does the devil become involved if you’re Christian? I believe yes, from my study of the Bible verses on betrayal.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: But only after you make the choice. Satan doesn’t make you do anything.

Jesse: In my faith tradition. In recent years, more of a charismatic tradition. I wouldn’t say this is a primary belief in some circles, but there is the tendency to believe that there’s demonic activity to a significant level involved when people engage in destructive activity. Like we know, the devil steals, kills, and destroys.

So anything that fits in that type of behavior gets labeled as demonic. It’s my opinion, at this point, that gets overused as an excuse: the devil made me do it. This person habitually cheats on their spouse or engages in destructive behaviors. So there’s a tendency to label that person as having a demon that’s “making them do this.” I don’t believe that today. You’re making those choices of your own free will.

Anne: Yeah, in John 6:70-71, one of the Bible quotes on betrayal, Christ says Judas is a devil.

Jesse: Wow, interesting.

Anne: If someone is wicked or they are evil, who is the devil? The person doing it.

Jesse: Yeah.

Anne: So rather than the devil made me do it. I am doing the bad thing. Like I am wicked. I am the evil one.

Jesse: I’m doing this, yes.

Anne: Because if he wasn’t doing that bad thing, would the devil be involved? No, and who is the devil in that scenario? Not that he’s the devil with a capital D, but Christ himself calls people wicked, evil. He says about Judas, “one of you is a devil?” Not one of you is controlled by the devil or is possessed by the devil. One of you is.

Jesse: Is, it’s pretty blunt.

Anne: These men we’re married to, we can tell something isn’t right. We might not know what it is, because they’re lying to us, they’re manipulating us. Or maybe we know what it is. But even when we try to talk to them about it, we can’t figure out what’s going on. Because they lie. Christ is like, “Hey, one of you will betray me.” And Judas said, “Master, is it I?” He knows he’s already betrayed him. He knows he’s already made a deal with the head of the religion at the time.

Christ was a rebel. He was going against the head of all of the religious authorities at the time. So, Judas is saying, “Is it me?” So you take your concerns to your husband and say, “I’m really concerned. Are you betraying me?”

“Me, me? Am I betraying you?” When he is betraying you. So, you’re not gonna get a straight answer. Christ was perfect, and Judas lied to him. So, if any pastor or therapist tells you he’s lying to you because he doesn’t feel safe enough to tell you the truth, you can just be like, that’s just not true. Judas lies to Jesus’s face and acts like he doesn’t know if he’s gonna betray Jesus or not. When he already has betrayed him, and he’s planning on betraying him still, and the plan is in the works.

Now, Jesus knows this. Some of us are aware of our husband’s lies. So let’s talk about that in the context of the scriptures on betrayal and our Savior, Jesus Christ. Because he knew what Judas’ character was. And maybe he’s still hoping Judas will make different choices.

Anne: There are so many women who listen to the podcast, and they realize their husband is emotionally abusive. He’s psychologically abusive, he’s been lying to them. And I did it too. We try to get him help, and people blame us. “Why did you do that?” In the scriptures of Judas’ betrayal, Christ provides a profound example. He knew Judas was a betrayer—this is evident in John 6:70-71, long before the Last Supper. Yet, he chose not to dismiss him. The reason for this remains a mystery.

I’ve heard that in some faith traditions, they attribute not necessarily good intentions to Judas, but maybe an explanation for why he did it. That gives him the benefit of the doubt. Which is heartbreaking, that someone would try to give Judas the benefit of the doubt, but then it doesn’t surprise me. Because they’re still doing it in the context of our husbands. They’re giving our husbands the benefit of the doubt, despite the awful choices he’s made.

All of us have a devil in our house essentially. Someone who is making bad choices and betraying us, lying to us all the time, and undermining us. And somehow everybody wants to give him the benefit of the doubt. The therapist wants to give him the benefit of the doubt. The clergy wants to give him the benefit of the doubt, our neighbors. So I’m like, Oh, it happened with Judas too. They’re giving Judas the benefit of the doubt. That is so crazy to me.

Jesse: Many of Jesus’ followers believed that when the Messiah came, He was going to overthrow the Roman Empire. So it’s possible that Judas led the authorities to Jesus to force Him into a position where he would rise up and take his rightful place as the Messiah and overthrow the Romans.

Obviously, he was greedy and he was selling Jesus out, but there was also that thought process that he might have been operating in sort of a nationalist type of way. Trying to force Jesus to do what he thought He came to do.

Anne: There’s so much to learn about Judas’ character in these Bible verses on betrayal, on so many levels. If they say he had “good intentions,” because he was trying to force Jesus to do something. No, because the control aspect is not good intentions. If he loved Jesus, the first commandment is to love God. The second commandment is to love your neighbor. If you love this person and care about them, are you really gonna put ’em in a position where you’re forcing them to choose between death and rising up and starting a big old war?

That’s extreme. The concept that somehow, someone was good because they’re willing to sell someone out, make them face death, and force them into this extremely awkward position for political gain, would we say? Was it politics back then? Who was in charge? Were the Romans in charge? Were the Jews in charge? You’re putting the people you love in danger.

If Christ came to love and serve, and bring people together and have compassion for people, that’s like the opposite of what Christ wanted. and you’re trying to force Christ into a box. It doesn’t make sense.

Jesse: Regardless, Judas benefited from being in Jesus’ circle. Whether his motivation was greed or whether it was political. Christ is growing in popularity because people are realizing who he is. Judas was benefiting from that.

Anne: Yeah, maybe the reason Christ said you’re a devil is because he knew Judas was exploitative. John 12, showcases Judas. Judas’ exploitative character, where Mary anoints Jesus with expensive perfume, and he criticizes Mary. She’s not doing anything wrong. That all of us have experienced, we’re doing something good. We’re trying to protect our family, and we’re criticized no matter what we do. And then he lies and says he cares about poor people, he doesn’t.

Jesse: She understood who Christ was. She was anointing him. So, that gives us an insight into Judas’ character and his understanding of Christ. ‘Cause he was criticizing her for doing what she did.

Anne: I mean, here’s an apostle criticizing a woman for doing the right thing.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: It’s a Biblical fact, in the scriptures on betrayal. We can say this is Biblical, that men in religious positions criticize women when they’re doing the right thing. Here’s a prime example of that, and Jesus was not a fan. In that instance, Christ was there to call Judas out.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: But when we’re in our pastor’s office or our bishop’s office, and we’re with our husband. And he’s criticizing us for not praying enough, or asking too many questions. That was what I got all the time. I ask too many questions.

Jesse: Right.

Anne: Jesus isn’t there in that moment to say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Nope, that’s not what’s happening.” And so it’s hard to tell. Because they’re your religious leader. Hopefully, by showing examples in scripture of how Jesus spoke about betrayal, we can help women have Jesus in their heads.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: Say, you’re not doing anything wrong.

Jesse: Right.

Anne: You’re okay. He’s the one doing the wrong thing. In John 12:6, we know Judas wasn’t doing this because he cared about the poor. Because it says, “not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief.” They use the word thief. The label of thief indicates someone who’s exploitative.

They want something without earning it. They wanna steal it or take it from someone who has done the work. Like, you’ve done all the work to keep your family together. You’ve done all the work to have a good marriage. You’ve done all the work to ensure your kids are okay, and then he is a thief in that he just wants the fruits of all that without having to do any of it.

Jesse: Right.

Anne: So this word thief in these Bible verses on betrayal indicates that exploitative nature.

Jesse: That’s right. If Judas justified what he was doing for political gain. Let’s say, for the “greater good” of all. My ex-husband could justify everything he was doing. I would ask him about planning for the future, and he would not wanna have a discussion about it. But then in the therapist’s office, he would talk about how he was planning for our future. So he had this ability to rationalize that he was doing those things when he wasn’t.

Anne: So many women say I think he ended up believing his lies. And I think the jury’s still out on that one. It might’ve been he pretended to believe to get what he wanted. I think they know they’re lying. And the reason why I say that is because when I lie, I know.

Jesse: Yes, now I believe he knew what he was doing. And he still knows what he’s doing. Because he’s capable of telling the truth when he wants to. He was skilled at giving bits and pieces of truth to me.

Anne: As a tactic.

Jesse: Where he could “honestly” say to me that he was telling me the truth. He just wasn’t telling me the whole truth.

Anne: So he’s using truth to lie and get what he wants. In Judas’ case and the verses on betrayal, in Matthew 26, he actually makes a choice. He’s like, “Hey, you pay me. I’ll give Jesus up.” Now, this part to me does not make sense. The people who wanted to kill Jesus for sure knew who he was.

Anne: We know this was the case because Christ himself says in one of the verses on betrayal, Matthew 26:55, “Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye lay no hold on me.”

These guys manufacture all this when you could have just come and taken me anytime. I was always out and about.

Judas was trying to capitalize on his relationship with Christ for his own gain. And so are these husbands who don’t love their wives, who cheat on them and lie, but want the benefits of having a wife. They want someone to cook, clean and plan the trips.

He could have been honest about it and said, “Hey, I don’t love you. I’d rather have sex with someone else”, or “I’d rather use pornography and masturbate than have sex with you.” But then they’d give up all the benefits she gives him. They’re not willing to be honest, because they’d have to give up those benefits they have not earned. So here again, he says the word “thief,” like you’re a thief, because you could’ve just openly come and captured me while I was out and about.

It also shows he deliberately did it.They could have found him anywhere. That somebody needed to arrange where he would get caught is ridiculous. Also, Christ knew he was going to take upon him the sins of the world, be crucified. This was all going to happen, whether Judas was involved or not. I just really feel like Judas was like, “How can I benefit from this?” ‘Cause it’s going down anyway. It also shows he did it deliberately.

Anne: Let’s talk about this for a minute. Men who have an affair. It takes work.

Jesse: It does. A lot of work.

Anne: They have to figure out how to get her phone number, or they have to text her. They have to figure out what lies to tell you. And none of these things are accidental. I’ve always laughed about this when teenagers, they’re like, “Oh, we accidentally had sex and she’s pregnant.” I’m like, so your pants accidentally unzipped and they accidentally came off, and your private parts accidentally went into her private parts. What are you talking about? There was no part of this that was accidental. There’s no part of this where you like fell into sin.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: Was caught in sin.

Jesse: Sometimes those things will be excused as a mistake. It takes the intention and personal responsibility out of it as something that you accidentally did, and that’s not true.

Anne: I mean, it takes planning. It takes effort. I mean, that’s like saying I accidentally robbed a bank.

Jesse: Yes,

Anne: No, she just started kissing me. What was I supposed to do about it? I accidentally looked at explicit material. What are you talking about? I’ve literally never accidentally watched Star Trek.

I’ve never accidentally, I don’t like the show Friends. I don’t enjoy it. I’ve never accidentally watched it ever. If it comes on, I just turn it off. So these guys are not accidentally watching explicit material, they’re seeking it out. Like in these scriptures of Judas’ betrayal, he sought the priests.

Jesse: Exactly.

Anne: If they do run into it, just like I might run into “Friends”, then I just turn it. It’s like not a big deal. There’s no accidental, I viewed pornography for three hours and masturbated, no.

Jesse: Yeah, exactly. Yes, like they have no self control. A lot of the Christian marriage literature I read painted men as not having any self-control. Women were painted as the gatekeepers of sexuality, and we either needed to ensure that our husbands were satisfied, on demand whenever they wanted it or needed it. It was touted as a need for men. If we did not do that, of course, they were going to stray because we were not meeting their needs. Self-control in scriptures on betrayal is not gender specific. We’re all supposed to have it and be able to control ourselves.

Anne: Well, like what were they supposed to do before they got married?

Jesse: Exactly.

Anne: If you’re in a coma, like does that justify either raping you in your hospital bed to be graphic about it or having an affair? Because apparently they must have sex. That’s so crazy.

Jesse: A very specific example: When we were in counseling, my ex-husband told me he needed sex to be connected with me. The way that played out in reality after we had sex, he would go off and do whatever he was gonna do, engage in his hobbies, go to work, whatever.

And then he wanted sex again. Then he’d be gone again. The Christian literature did not help, because it fed that narrative that it’s the way men connect. And I had to do that first to establish emotional connection. And that never happened.

Anne: And so that means it’s a lie, and that means it was always manipulation because you’re always hoping. And this happens with couple therapy too. It happens with pastoral counseling. You’re always hoping the next session will be the breakthrough. Every intimate time, maybe then you’ll feel emotionally connected.

But it never comes, because it was all a lie to manipulate you to have sex whenever he wanted, but he didn’t care about you. He was just using you. So we talked about before the devil didn’t make him do it. He is the devil, Christ says. Then he says in one of the verses on betrayal, “One of you will betray me.” We know people heard it because everybody asks, “Is it I?”

He says, “I’m going to dip the bread and give it to the person who will betray me.” This reminds me of a dinner I had with my family. My ex is there, my whole family is there. I talked about this on the Josh Powell episode, ’cause it was right after Josh Powell had murdered his kids.

So I’m sitting at dinner with everyone, and I’m like, “Hey, if anything happens to me, Chuck did it.” And I said it in front of him and my family, ’cause I thought that would keep me safe. So, I wonder if Christ is like, maybe if I out him in front of everybody, then he is not gonna do it. And then, Judas eats it. I’m like, why did he eat it? I’m wondering if he was like, well, everybody else ate their bread.

Anne: So, I’m going to eat it and be like, of course it’s not me, but I have to eat the bread ’cause everybody else did. I don’t know what was going through his mind, but that’s interesting to me that he ate it. Part of me thinks that when we have proof, we know that he is texting a coworker or something, and we take that and put it in front of him. And the thought is he’ll be like, “You got me.”

So in this instance, I can imagine they’re like, this is Christ. Do they know that he’s perfect? This is a question I’ve been wondering. He’s their friend. He does stuff on Sunday, and they’re like, you’re not supposed to do that on Sunday. They question him.

So we know he’s perfect, but they might not have truly understood because they’re seeing him do some things that aren’t traditional, that aren’t within cultural norms, so here’s Judas’ thinking. “What do I do? He’s calling me out in front of everybody.” And it reminds me a little bit of when you have proof.

They don’t respond the way you think. And so if you have thought, “I’m gonna show him this, and then he’ll have no choice but to repent.” Know that our Savior, Jesus Christ, also was like, “Hey, the person I’m gonna give this bread to is the person who betrayed me.” In these scriptures on betrayal, Judas still did it. If you’ve enrolled in the Living Free Workshop, you’ll understand why these strategies don’t work and what Christ taught us to do.

Anne: There are verses on betrayal and several places where Christ talks about what to do with someone who is dangerous, which he actually did with Judas. He let Judas have his own way.

Jesse: Yes, there are several instances in scripture on betrayal where Jesus confronts people. He gives them the opportunity to accept the truth. But he does not pursue them and continue to say, “Hey, I’m telling you the truth here. Why aren’t you believing me? I’m the Messiah.” He just doesn’t do that.

He offers the truth and lets them go on their merry way. Something that as a Christ follower and wife, I got a lot of mixed messages on that: don’t say too much because he’s your husband, he’s busy, he’s working hard, he’s stressed out, so don’t overburden him with all these worries that you have. I was encouraged more to go after my husband in his love languages, like his need for physical touch, or making sure the home was kept just right. The lesson from scripture for me now is that Jesus presented the truth to people. He let them go and do what they were going to do.

You said two things there that I thought were interesting. The part, like, don’t burden him. This type of, I’m gonna say “Christian” teaching is a double standard, because he is supposed to be like Christ. And Christ wants you to take all your burdens to him.

But apparently you are the one who’s supposed to bear all the burdens, and you’re not supposed to take any of your burdens to him. that’s a problem.

Anne: The second one, so many people talk in these verses on betrayal about Judas’ betrayal of Jesus, as if it happened the night he actually gave him up. But it was happening the whole time, it’s happening when he criticizes Mary and throws her under the bus. It’s happening when he actually makes the deal with the religious authorities. It’s happening the whole time. So when Jesus says, “The person I give the bread to will betray me.” Judas already betrayed him. He has a history.

If we were in Christ’s position, not if we are Christ, but if we’re there, and Judas is our husband at the dinner. And we’re like, “Hey, he’s gonna betray me if he keeps doing this stuff.” Let’s just imagine all the people involved with this. They’re all sitting around the table and you’re like, this is what’s happening. He’s gonna betray me. Now in that moment, what did they tell us?

They told us to pray for him. They told us to go to couple therapy. So in that moment where Judas takes the bread, Christ isn’t like, “Hold on, push pause on this whole thing. Can somebody call a couple therapist.” He didn’t say, “Wait, can you guys, hold on? I’m gonna pray so hard, it’s going to fix Judas, and I’m gonna come out and he is not gonna betray me anymore.” That does not happen. Instead, what does Christ say in that moment? He says, “Whatever you’re gonna do, do it fast.”

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: Paraphrasing, whatever you’re about to do, get on with it.

Anne: A lot of us feel this urgency, like something’s gotta change. We get to that point. But in scriptures on betrayal, instead of everyone else being like, “Jesus got to that point too. I get it, good for you. You’re following the Savior’s example.” Instead, they’re like, no, no, no. Hold, wait, wait, wait, go to couple therapy, get pastoral counseling. Have you prayed about it? Are you staying on your side of the street?

In that moment, he does not pursue Judas. He doesn’t try to get Judas to change. He doesn’t do anything about Judas. Also, he also doesn’t do anything about himself. He’s not like, I need to go to 12 Step, or I need to be a better communicator, or I need to change so that Judas doesn’t betray me.

Jesse: Right, I’m certain he’s been aware of Judas behavior all along. It’s hard to reconcile that Christ would allow Judas to still be part of his inner circle behaving that way. But he finally gets to that point, and I think this is the lesson certainly for me. When you’ve said all the things. And you’ve tried everything you knew to do, to reach your husband. Saying, “Hey, I see this thing happening. I’m not comfortable with it. Please pay attention to our marriage. Please protect our marriage.”

And you realize they’re still gonna pursue this person, or they’re still gonna pursue pornography. I finally got to the point where I was like I don’t wanna live the rest of my life trying to figure out what the truth is. Trying to figure out when the next relationship will happen.

Anne: Because you’ve been able to see his character. He’s been betraying the whole time. I wanna make that clear. And then wouldn’t even say final act of betrayal, actually. ‘Cause we’ll talk about more betrayal that happens afterwards. He kisses him. How many of us have been betrayed with a kiss? They kiss us, act like they love us or care about us when they’re just exploiting us. In our case, this is sexual coercion. Where they’re lying to us about what they’re doing. And Judas said the same thing.

Now, I wanna pause here and talk about the difference between Judas betraying Christ the whole time and the night that Peter denies the Savior. So here’s another example in the Bible on betrayal and Christ prophesying. But I’m starting to believe this was more of a directive, because Peter is a good person. No one ever called him a devil. And Christ says, “Before the cock crows, you’re gonna deny me three times.”

I’m wondering now if it was a directive, “Look, these people wanna kill you. I don’t want you to die. I want you to be alive so that my work can continue. So you will deny me three times.” And maybe Peter’s like, “But I don’t wanna deny you.” And he is like, “No, you’re going to,” and then in the moment Peter’s like, “Oh, I get it. They might kill me. So, yeah, I don’t know him.”

The Living Free Workshop talks a lot about these, I’ll say ethical and moral quandaries, where we’re sometimes to choose between our safety and being honest with someone who’s trying to exploit us. Our intentions are to protect ourselves.

Anne: Whereas if they say, “Hey, I was just trying to protect myself from you.” Their intention is to exploit you, but they’re lying about protecting themselves ’cause they don’t need any protection.

After Peter does that, the rest of his life he tries to spread the gospel. He’s like, “I did survive. I felt bad about denying him that night, and the rest of my life, I will try to bring people to Christ.” There are so many examples in the Bible on betrayal and people who do terrible things. And then they repent, and they spend the rest of their lives as a missionary. Paul’s one of those.

So, Judas could have been like, “Oh, I really messed up. I’m gonna spend the rest of my life making amends for this.” Judas does not do that. So this is one other thing I want women to think about. A lot of us are like, if I could just get him to feel remorse, if I could just get him to understand.

If he has an exploitative character and does feel remorse. We don’t know what he felt remorse for. Did he feel remorse that like Jesus was crucified and he couldn’t use Jesus anymore?

Jesse: Hmm.

Anne: He couldn’t use him for political reasons. His political aspirations are dead in the water if he was riding on Christ’s coattails to do that. And because he doesn’t actually believe in him as a Savior.

Anne: What reason does he have to look to his teachings anymore or any of the principles of the gospel? Whereas Peter actually believed the principles of the gospel and wanted to teach them to people. But Judas doesn’t have any faith or hope. So I want women to remember that if he has an exploitative character, remorse will not do anything.

Jesse: Right, it’s not gonna bear good fruit. I think it actually mentions in one of the translations of these scriptures on betrayal that Judas had worldly sorrow. Whereas if it’s a Christlike fruit of the spirit type of sorrow, Godly sorrow. You’re prone to return to Christ where your hope comes from. And return to repentance, truly feeling sorry for whatever harm you’ve caused. The worldly sorrow tends to be more self-centered. I’m sorry I got caught. I’m sorry I’m experiencing pain.

Anne: i’m sorry that I can’t exploit him anymore.

Jesse: Right.

Anne: I’m sorry I can’t have my cake and eat it too. Men who want to use explicit material and also have a family. They might express remorse that they can’t do both. It seems so genuine when they’re talking to us. To think of them feeling really bad is actually true. It’s just that they’re lying to you about what they’re feeling bad about.

Jesse: Right.

Anne: Because Judas didn’t do anything to help the cause after that.

Anne: So to recap, what can we learn from the Bible about betrayal and the way Jesus handled Judas betraying him, the whole time Judas exploitative character? Number one, Jesus saw Judas character through his actions. He never sugarcoated it. He called out what was happening in real time, when Judas was doing it with Mary. And he warned what would happen if Judas didn’t change. Despite those warnings and clear indicators from the Savior himself, Judas kept lying, exploiting, and betraying.

So if somebody tells you to stop shaming your husband, or to quit sharing his so-called “mistakes” with other people, or to stop being judgy. Feel free to roll your eyes at them. Following Christ’s example means speaking the truth plainly and boldly, and calling out truth isn’t wrong. It’s never been wrong, and anyone who tells you it is, that’s manipulation so he can continue to exploit the situation.

So if he doesn’t change or gets worse, none of it has anything to do with you being honest. I say that, while also saying the Living Free strategies show the part I talked about with Peter, like how to protect yourself when you are in danger. It’s important to know what those strategies are. Because Christ himself says there are times when it’s not safe to say the truth boldly. Like, don’t cast your pearls before swine, agree quickly with an adversary.

Anne: I cover this in detail during the Living Free Workshop, so I encourage you to check it out.

But first, let me be clear—stating the truth is not the problem. Searching Bible verses on betrayal helped me find strength and clarity on this.

Anne: Number two, Jesus is perfect, and someone still betrayed him.

So if anyone’s telling you that if you prayed more or did something different, your husband wouldn’t have betrayed you, that is a lie. There’s nothing you could have done. It was all his choices.

Anne: And number three, if your husband has a deceitful, exploitative character, even if he seems to feel “remorse”, it will not lead to repentance.

So if you’re trying to observe, does he have this type of character? And he’s had those moments where he seemed remorseful before. And he continued to do it. You don’t have to find out again. Just like Jesus already knew long before the final betrayal.

But I’m gonna say the final betrayal was that he didn’t spend the rest of his life making amends for what he’d done. He just completely gave up on the gospel, altogether. Because Judas had the character that he did, remorse won’t help him.

So if you’ve been thinking there’s something you could do to get him to feel that, it wouldn’t necessarily lead to what you’re hoping for. It’s really sad. So like our Savior, women want peace. They want a peaceful home.

That’s what I wanted, you wanted, and what all of us want. Following Christ example, Judas didn’t change. We can be confident knowing that it has nothing to do with us.

Jesse: Right, it’s manipulative to put the pressure on wives in our cases to keep us caught in this cycle of doing whatever the next thing is to try to get our husbands to change, to repent or to feel sorrow. Having sex in order to get him to connect with me emotionally felt manipulative to me. Because I’m doing something in order for him to be nice to me.

Jesse: I shouldn’t have to do that. But most of the Christian teachings I read and was exposed to didn’t frame it that way. It framed it as my duty, and he needed that to connect with me.

Anne: Yeah, no one says, Christ, if you just prayed more, Judas wouldn’t have done that. Maybe if you spent more time with him alone, maybe you paid too much attention to Peter, James, and John, and you weren’t paying enough attention to Judas. I’m thinking he’d be like, “What are you talking about? The reason I didn’t wanna hang out with Judas as much as Peter is ’cause he was a pain in the butt. What do you mean? It’s not me, it’s Judas.”

Jesse: Yes, exactly.

Anne: Why would I wanna hang out with him? He is not a good person. Like, why would I wanna have sex with my husband? He is not nice to me.

Jesse: Exactly.

Anne: This is crazy town. I think he would say that, because of my study of bible verses about betrayal. I think he would be like, “You’re not doing anything wrong, Jesse and all listeners.” I did the same thing, and Judas still betrayed me.

Jesse: That’s what I love about the Living Free Strategies. The way the strategies are laid out helps identify your own thought processes and their thought processes. For me, as a believer, as a Christ follower, it helped me question, why am I believing this thing my husband is telling me? Because my body tells me something’s not right. You want to believe what your husband tells you is true, but when their behaviors give you something else, you have cognitive dissonance.

Jesse: Telling me that he needs me to tell him what to do in our relationship, but he seems to have no problem figuring out what to do to reach out to this other person. So Living Free gave me a framework where I could actually write things down and analyze if it is really true. The exercises really made things clear. Helping me discern when he’s lying to me, what is actually happening here. And what do I do to have peace and love that I desire and I am worthy of having?

Anne: You are, all listeners right now are worthy of love and a healthy relationship. And a therapist or other type of coach might tell you if he’s unhealthy, then you are. And that’s not true. You could be the healthiest person like Jesus Christ, and have a relationship with an unhealthy person who betrays you. The Living Free strategies give women mental, psychological and emotional space to observe truth.

Jesse: Yes.

Anne: That’s the hardest part of all this. What is actually going on? Who is he in relation to me? What am I to him? Living Free makes that clear, because I just don’t think divorce is the solution.

Maybe a domestic violence shelter will tell you that divorce will solve all your problems. I’m grateful I’m divorced. Would I ever tell a woman not to get divorced? No, if she wants to get divorced, go for it. But my ex abused me post-divorce for eight years.

If you share kids, figuring out the strategic way to see him for who he is. Whether married or not, is so important. Because he’s going to be that person, just like Judas was no matter what.

Anne: People are like, oh, just don’t let him affect you, while he’s emotionally punching you in the face. You’ve got an emotional bruise. There’s nothing you can do about that bruise.

It doesn’t matter if you’re married or divorced, he’s still going to affect you, even if he’s just texting you about your kids. Learning these strategies while you’re married, divorced, or whatever your situation is no matter what’s going to happen, is really important.

Because no matter what, metaphorically, there’s no way you can get punched in the face and not get a bruise. Jesse, thanks for helping me sort all this out. There are lots of things to think about. Thank you so much for being here to talk about this today.

Jesse: Yeah, I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.

If you, like many victims of betrayal are desperate for stillness and peace. It’s hard to find the perfect betrayal meditation to heal from your husband’s infidelity. Here’s what you need to know.

Did you know that infidelity is a form of emotional abuse, so you’re really healing from so much more. To see if he used any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

We understand how exhausting and stressful it is to experience emotional abuse. You deserve peace. Anne Blythe, founder of BTR.ORG, developed The Living Free Workshop to offer peace and healing from betrayal regardless of your circumstances.

Here’s a link to the first betrayal meditation, you can listen to for free.

Anne: Three betrayal survivors are joining me today to talk about how meditation helped them heal. For me too, at some point in my recovery, meditation was the only thing that helped me. So even though I searched for meditations on YouTube or the library or other places, there weren’t any meditations specific to our situation.

We’re going to start with Pat. So Pat, how did the The Living Free Workshop help you heal?

Pat: I love the focus on safety. I don’t think we talk about our safety enough in our culture. I found myself during the meditations really contemplating safety in my life. And I appreciated the process of walking through the idea of safety in all aspects of my life. It opened the door for me to process. I realized that I have never felt safe in my environment ever, especially with my ex husband.

But I see how. It was a slippery slope, as I was numb to safety in my immediate environment during my marriage. I was conditioned to not feel safe as a woman in the culture. It was very helpful. I have four daughters, three adult daughters, and I still have one minor at home. Because I didn’t feel safe in my marriage. I subconsciously protected them from my ex husband, and now I know why.

Pat: After listening to the meditation, I’m feeling more empowered to help them. I noticed that they are also numb to experiences that risk their safety. Because they’ve been conditioned to not process their safety in their environment.

Anne: So did the meditations, help you also heal from the emotional abuse you experienced and all the ways your husband was holding you back?

Pat: Absolutely, the interesting thing about the meditation is that it’s not specific.

Anne: It’s general, because I wanted women to adapt it to their own situation. Did it surprise you how specific it was to you and your experience, even though the meditation itself was relatively vague?

Pat: Oh, absolutely, there’s a part in the meditation where you go through many ways that we can feel unstable. Really at risk in our environments, and you name off lots of different areas. And the one area, it was just safety. Safety was huge for me. I had no idea it was so big for me. You know, I’m almost three years into this since D-Day.

I knew safety was big, but until that meditation. And you going through the process of using all the adjectives to name off different areas that we could be struggling. Or we could have this feeling of oppression, which felt heavy. The part that was very hard was when you said, now feel it in your body. And I was like, uh, my first walk through the meditation. I was like, I don’t want to do this. And then by the third time I was like, all right, I can do this.

And allowing that feeling in the body, and then having this white light release, it felt very uplifting. By the end of the meditation, I felt a release having the opportunity to release it, I felt peace.

Anne: Well, and the point of feeling all the ways you feel unsafe throughout your body. Everywhere in your body meditation is to help you acknowledge the emotional abuse, so that you can release it. Emotional abuse affects your body in profound ways, just like we’ve been in an abusive relationship and didn’t know it, we’re also unsafe in so many ways, and we don’t know it, but our body knows.

Pat: Yeah.

Anne: And if we tune into that, we can recognize it and then make some progress to release it. But also as we release it, it helps us make changes in our actual real life, not just in meditative form.

Pat: Yes, absolutely, you know, it’s like the onion. The first time I listened to the meditation, I didn’t even want to get into the onion. And then the second time it was like, okay, I can feel this. Even in some groups talking about safety, because safety seems to be the biggest thing, safety and oppression. I also recognize that I don’t like limitations right now. And I don’t like things pushing in on me.

I struggle with budgets. I struggle with calendars. Because I don’t want to feel that pushing in. I’m starting to feel that freedom of not having this oppression. And so when you went through the process of feeling the oppression, allow the feeling in your body. And I was like, this is the same feeling I don’t like about having requirements on me right now.

I need to feel that freedom in my life right now. And it felt like there’s nothing wrong with me for wanting to feel this, because the oppression is what I’ve lived with for so long.

Anne: You’re just trying to figure out a way to live with a different feeling.

Pat: Yes, very much. And so that brought that up to the surface too.

Anne: So for our listeners, because there are so many topics covered by the meditations. She’s actually talking about going through the same betrayal meditation multiple times, which I recommend until you start peeling those layers back. So let’s talk about the process of going through the same meditation several times. What was the difference between your attitude or your experience the first time and the third time you went through that same meditation?

Pat: Going through it the first time, I didn’t know what to expect. I was very guarded. I felt cautious. By the third time, I knew what to expect. And it felt safer in my body, because I knew what was coming and knew I could process this in safety. Even though it was difficult to feel the feelings, I knew I could move through this.

Anne: Okay, so by the third time, you were like, this is safe. This is a good place for me to process these difficult feelings. This meditation will enable me to release them, and feel peace.

Pat: Yes, that’s exactly, exactly what I’m saying. I do well with journaling. So the workbook helped me take pauses, process in a legible way, documenting it, getting out of my body. So then it allowed me space to revisit when I had time after the meditation to navigate through the process of what I had just experienced.

Pat: So it gave me space during the meditation to work through where I was at. And when I repeated the exercise three and four, where I wrote down what was happening in my body. It allowed me to get it out of my body. I could process my emotions and get it out of my brain. So I didn’t have to hold onto it and remember before the next step.

Anne: So for anyone who’s thinking, I want to lay down or I don’t want to sit. And I don’t want to fill out a form. What would you tell them about this particular healing meditation for survivors and this particular workbook?

Pat: For me personally, it was hard to write in the workbook the first time. I would tell them to move through with your gut. Maybe the first time isn’t the best time to write down things. Maybe for them, listening to the meditation is the best they can do at the time. That’s okay. It’s really for them. And when they get to a space where they want to actively navigate the meditation. And get things out of their body and brain, then use the workbook as a tool for their own healing.

Anne: That’s awesome that you said that, because that is the point that women use it, any way that is useful to them.

Pat: Yeah, we heal in different ways. The part where you went into all the different adjectives of possible oppression. I had to pause that. And so for some women, maybe they just need to process, and everybody processes at their own pace and time.

Anne: Yeah, I agree. I would recommend they at least get as far as to release the oppressive feelings. Rather than feeling all the oppressive feelings and then being like, okay, I’m going to stop now. Because then they would be left with all of it in there. So see it through to the end. And especially because you said the second and third time you felt way safer.

Pat: Yes.

Anne: Would you mind sharing the things you wrote about the colors or shapes? Did it surprise you what you ended up visualizing about your trauma? For me, when I do it, like one time it felt like concrete, and then it just fell out. Another time it was black ink that dripped out. I hope women just go with their gut with whatever they see.

Pat: Mine was pain. Pain in my neck or tightness in my gut, and it felt like my shoulders were high. They weren’t relaxed. Taking a deep breath was helpful, because I relaxed. And I noticed my shoulders drop. I noticed my wrist had shooting pains through it. It can be very small. It doesn’t have to speak loud. Wherever your gut leads you to whatever part of your body you start thinking of first, there’s a reason why.

So it’s almost like, okay, so why am I at that part of my body? Is there something there that feels different than the other side of my body? You know, is there something tight? Is there a shooting pain? Is it itchy? Am I holding it? Am I not rested or relaxed in that space? Many times when you’re not trained to be in your body.

Pat: When this is the first experience of being in your body, it could be very subtle. But go with your gut, your first inkling, and the first time you go to that space, just be inquisitive and allow it to come up. It doesn’t have to be work or hard to figure out what’s happening there.

Anne: It also doesn’t have to be crazy creative, right? If I said, did a color ever come up for you? And you were like, no, it never did. And then someone else was like, yeah, it was this weird green goopy thing. Either one is fine.

Pat: Absolutely.

Anne: In terms of listening to the same healing meditation for abuse survivors three times, by the end of the third time where you’re like, Whoa, I actually feel like I deserve safety way more than before I started .

Pat: A hundred percent, I had different visions in the workbook. On one exercise, the space in me wants to say that I am a human being, and I exist. You know, just the fact that I’m here. I deserve safety simply because I exist.

I don’t have to do anything, be anybody. And I don’t have to be productive, kind, compassionate or forgiving to deserve safety. I deserve it simply because I’m a human being and here. Because I have the right to be here and have my own thoughts, feelings, and emotions. Also, I have my own experiences and story, and I deserve the right to fill up space.

You know, so much in my life, I felt like I had to be invisible. I felt I didn’t even have a right to be in the body that I have.

Pat: Even some boundaries that I’ve been setting are, hey, I deserve to have a right to my own emotions. Because I exist and I’m a human being. What I realized was that safety resides within me. By the end of the meditation, I felt stronger in my ability to set boundaries so that I could feel safe within myself.

Anne: Have you noticed your real life waking, interacting with people, moving through the world? Have you noticed a difference since you’ve been through the betrayal meditations?

Pat: Absolutely, my dad came down to visit this past weekend and asked some very personal questions. And I didn’t have to over explain myself. You know, just because he asked the question doesn’t mean I need to give an answer. And also with my own children, my adult children, you know, they’re used to a mom that continues to give and give and doesn’t expect anything. You know, doesn’t expect to get upset when they take something that isn’t theirs of mine.

You know, they’re used to a mom that will continue to do for them without any kind of reciprocation and relationship. So that’s shifted, because I have a right to exist. I’m a human being, and I have thoughts and feelings. And giving them the opportunity to meet me in relationship now. Because I’m a human being and have thoughts and feelings. That allows them to have a different kind of relationship with me. There are growing pains for sure.

And that’s where I lean into the groups and your coaches. It’s good, because I’m now seeing them asking me, how was your day mom? Or, hey, can I do the dishes for you? Or you want to go for a walk with the dog?

Pat: Instead of wanting me to do for them, there’s a desire to meet me in relationship. You know, the biggest surprise to me was that I had a deeper understanding of the fact that I’m a survivor. It was in my head, the idea that I was a survivor just because of my situation, but it dropped into my heart and into my body.

The understanding that I’m here, I’m alive, and I deserve safety. And I deserve relationship, and I deserve peace. I deserve a voice, to have emotion, and I have a right to be here. I don’t have to be invisible anymore. And I would like the podcast listeners to know that there’s hope and healing. The meditations are a truly empowering opportunity to see a positive shift. It’s all about your interior world, and it will help you heal the trauma in a whole different way.

Anne: That’s why I did it. Because with me, I talk about this all day long. So going inside through meditation, yoga, or prayer is so much more helpful to me at this point. But it was also more helpful to me from the beginning. Knowing how useful it’s been to me, I thought we needed to do these specific to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery population. Because using other meditations, they weren’t gender specific. And so I didn’t feel super safe.

And, there were other parts that made me feel uncomfortable, because it wasn’t specific to this type of abuse. So creating this group of meditations for emotional abuse, basically myself and all of our community members has given me a lot of joy.

Pat: And thank you for your work. You saved my life. Your work saved my life. I am so grateful to you, and I love that you took something and paid it forward. You have been invaluable to me. So thank you for these meditations! Your workshop has completely shifted my life. Thank you so much.

Anne: Thank you. Thank you to all the women who have listened and been part of the community, because I feel like when one of us learned something, we all learn it collectively. It feels like as women, we’re just becoming more and more healthy.

Pat: Yes.

Anne: And it’s exciting.

Pat: So exciting.

Anne: I wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for you. It goes both ways. So thank you so much.

Pat: Thank you so much.

Anne: So now Lily, another victim of betrayal, will share. Welcome Lily. The Living Free Workshop has 13 different meditations. I want to talk about how you felt when you did the same meditation three times. Just like Pat. How did that help you?

Lily: Yes, when I listened to it, I was also going through a rough week in my divorce process. And I found it very grounding to review and do the visualization. And then actually to have the same visualization. So while I was going through all the turmoil on the outside. The meditation, visualization, and process being the same actually provided some grounding for me. To be able to stay steady through it.

With the chaos on the outside, I found some peace and calm on the inside. And actually, I think having the same meditation made that possible. I was surprised at how grounded I felt. When I came into this process, I didn’t know that I could get away, because my situation is difficult. My husband went after my son. He’s very destructive. This meditation helped me go, okay, I can do this. I can get through this. I deserve this.

Because my son has an anxiety disorder at this point. So he feeds off of my anxiety. What happened was when I was calmer, I was more grounded. He’s less anxious. So that was really helpful.

Anne: Did you find that after the healing meditation, you were acting differently or thinking differently in ways that were new to you? That you didn’t have to work to do or think about doing that just came naturally?

Lily: Yes, I can be far more present and attentive to my son and stay in the moment. After the meditation, my thoughts were much calmer. The rumination was much less. And as I did the meditation more than once, the ruminating got less and less. So it was a cumulative benefit of repeating the meditation.

Anne: A lot of women, when they know there’s a workbook, it’s like, what? Uh, that’s not meditation. Meditation is like laying down and relaxing. So the suggestion is to sit and have a pencil and fill this workbook out. How did you feel about the workbook?

Lily: I found the workbook very helpful during the Betrayal Trauma Recovery meditation. Because it helped me write down my answers as I went along, and it really helped me stay grounded and present to the meditation. Once the thoughts and ideas were on paper, I was able to let them go and be fully present to the next part of the meditation.

And the other piece that I appreciate about it is that afterwards, as I reflect back on the three times I did it. I had different answers to different questions. And that’s useful feedback for my trauma recovery going forward. Especially identifying my stuck points in areas where I have challenges and old traumas to return to in my healing journey.

Lily: One of the hardest parts of this journey was getting started, believing I could get to safety. And I’ve been participating in Betrayal Trauma Recovery groups for a long time. They have been helpful in that, they can give individualized coaching on my particular issues, and also hear other women’s situations and listen to the coaching they’re getting.

That also gives me lots of ideas on what I can implement in my own life. And what I appreciated about the healing meditation was that I used it to focus inwards on my heart and heal emotional abuse. And the things inside of me, and having a tool to examine it, process it and release it, really helps me take that next step.

The meditation works with the group, in that the group gives me the strategies, the ideas, and the actions to take. And then the meditation gives me the grounding, calmness, ability, strength, and clarity to take the steps. That I’m learning in group. So they work well together.

Anne: I am so glad to hear that. That’s exactly what I intended was for all of these resources to work together. And before we started recording, you mentioned that The Living Free Workshop also helped you. And it had helped you change the way you perceive him.

Lily: Yes, the graphic in Living Free of the circle of my life and all the things that I’m excited about going forward. The things that I’m rediscovering about myself, the fact that I love to sing, love music, I love to decorate.

Lily: All the things that make me feel alive and are life giving for me that I lost somewhere in this marriage. I’m rediscovering about myself to make that place a bigger part of my life. And through meditation relegate the emotional abuser to the periphery of it.

Anne: It’s cool, because on my own journey of healing. I’m just adding on these layers of healing and then creating the workshop with this meditation to help other women do it. It’s like so exciting that we’re all making so much progress. I love it. And I’ve only progressed as far as I am right now. And hopefully tomorrow, I’ll progress a little more. But also knowing that the things I produce, the content, the workshop and the strategies, are actually helpful.

Women are like, I felt better and could do it. It makes me so happy, because forever I went through the mess of pornography addiction recovery, which always made me feel worse. And I was just cycled through abuse over and over, or even couple therapy. I’m so proud of the stuff I create and share, because I feel like it’s working.

Lily: I agree, because I went through that cyclone, whatever that was, of codependency recovery and therapy. Yeah, it made me feel worse too. I couldn’t believe my pain, anger, and response to the heinous actions. The deceit was ignored and I was supposed to have all kinds of sympathy for this dude who had done it. And why am I shaming him? Oh, to have him be the center of attention as the identified patient. Like, wait a second, what about the collateral damage here?

Lily: You know, it was so frustrating. I’ve been in your group for a long time. To see women come in, and not have to go through the meat grinder of the codependency recovery that I had to go through. So to see women come into your group now and get the right tools, the right advice, the right frame that this is abuse. I’m seeing them recover quicker. They’re getting through the process faster.

They aren’t getting dragged through the same therapy trauma I got dragged through. and their children aren’t getting dragged through the same trauma. And I’m grateful for that. Because of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I’ve recovered now, and he hasn’t changed one iota, and I’m fine. And my kid’s fine. I discovered your podcast. It came up on the algorithm and then came to group and bit by bit, take the small steps.

Because for example, I was resistant to go no contact, because then I’m not going to know what he’s doing, and going no contact was the best thing for me. The coaches really walked with me through my process, my timing, and my reservations. Group upon group, and when I finally accomplished it, they were celebrating with me. Nobody pushed me. And I appreciated that. Yeah, It’s been life changing for me.

I honestly don’t know where I’d be. I just want to thank you for doing this, because Betrayal Trauma Recovery has just saved me, saved my brain.

Anne: Well, I’m so glad it was helpful and that The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions and the workshop work together.

Anne: The last betrayal survivor. Her name is Sammy, is talking about her experience. I want to pause here to tell you the details of The Living Free Workshop. In addition to covering emotional safety strategies, I wrote and edited, revived, and tested all the meditations in it. It includes 13 meditations, and they are all amazing. Each meditation will gift you something that you need. Like love or support or peace.

It is a specifically designed meditation for women who’ve experienced betrayal. Even though the beginning of each meditation is similar. There’s a topic specific visualization in each meditation. Women find it helpful. I’ve invited Sammy, another member of our community, to share her experience with the meditations today. Before you even listened to it one time, what were your expectations?

Sammy: I typically shied away from meditation because I’m coming from a Christian base. And I was afraid of I don’t know, new age meditations, for lack of a better definition. So I kept reading scripture prayer and my own meditation in communing with God so to speak. But I thought, well, this meditation is coming from a safe source. I’m open to this. I’ll see what I think. Oh, yes, a BTR meditation is safe, fine, and I always know that. Say I started, I can just stop.

I hadn’t imagined meditations where you would stop and kind of journal. At the same time, I thought, I’m going to go with what they say to do and see where it leads.

Anne: I bet that adventurous attitude has gotten you far in your life. Where did you hear about the Living Free Workshop.

Sammy: I think it was Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. It’s been a lifesaver, yeah.

Anne: Talk about that first time you went through it.

Anne: What did you think?

Sammy: It was in the middle of a day, which is unlike me. I normally would save this for either first thing in the morning or evening or bedtime. But I wanted to get started right away, and I knew I had a limited amount of time. I went into a room where I have a prayer area, and I just decided to follow exactly what it said to do. The first thing that came to mind actually surprised me. It took me back in my childhood, and I really didn’t think I’d go there.

So I just went with it. I mean, it makes sense. You know, that’s where some of my fears and lack of healthy coping mechanisms began. I relived it, but it felt safe at the same time. I had plenty to write about, where it would say stop and write. The first part about obstructions is knowing you deserve safety.

And then especially under the part where it talks about if the obstructions could speak, what would they say? I loved some of your prompts that helped get me going. I had no problem expanding. Experiencing that early life situation, I know I didn’t feel I deserved safety then, but I’m absolutely resolute that I deserve it now. I carry a lot of my physical stress in my jaw area, my neck and my shoulders.

I started that meditation aware that everything felt really, really tight. By the end of the meditation, I had noticeable, significant relaxing in those muscle areas. That was so encouraging in and of itself.

Sammy: I’m going to redo this many times. I have many different things to process in my brain, soul and heart. So I don’t try to force it, just whatever comes up comes up during the meditation. I want to be healed from emotional abuse. I know my Savior wants me to be healed. And He can work through many different things. And this to me feels like a wonderful inexpensive, almost a version of EMDR. Not even all that time consuming avenue that I can do any time.

I probably have done it five more times as recently as this morning. Every single time I listen to it, I hear something I didn’t hear the last time. And it’s usually something you’re saying because it’s so filled with such good nurturing words, information and message. Yeah. I just hear something different every time that makes it deeper and more profound, more meaningful.

One thing that has not changed every time I’ve done it is that place I go to in my mind, where I have total safety. All the sensations around me, and everything makes me have that feeling. That has stayed the same. I’m just going deeper and deeper in relaxing. It’s helped me be more mindful and relax. The other thing is that each time there are about three to five different parts of trauma that I’ve processed.

Each time they come up in a thought, they’re not as powerful. The power of their grip on me is lessening and lessening.

Anne: Yeah, I felt that way too. The more I meditated, it didn’t have the power it had when I was just going about my day.

Sammy: And it’s less than it was the time before.

Sammy: It’s given me such a strong visual of that light that you talk about. I’ve experienced that in my mind’s eye. One time in particular, many years ago, when I wasn’t sure where I stood. I prayed for a sign that God had revealed to me that he is real. And it came in that form in a half awake, calm, relaxed state. It was the most beautiful, brilliant, warm, but not too hot, light and warmth. I’ve never experienced anything like that.

One time recently, a real blip of it. I didn’t ask for it. It just came. Every time you talk about that, in the healing meditations I go to that place, and it just feels so real. Still everything I need. I love imagining that light taking this pain and this trauma and just obliterating it. That helps me so much. And the more I do it, the more I keep remembering in real moments to try to do that. And then that force field that you talk about. I imagine like a circle around my whole body.

It’s an invisible one to everybody else, but it’s like my buffer and my shield, and that’s Jesus surrounding me. And specifically how you brought in angels. That’s always been something so important to me. I could go on forever about how Betrayal Trauma Recovery is changing my life.

Sammy: I can’t even thank you enough, because I know it all began with you.

Anne: Well, thank you. Because without your support and all the women who have been supportive, listening to the podcast. And pushing that follow button, which helps the algorithm, donating so that I could keep going. Using the services and telling people how amazing they are. Without the community helping me, there’s no way I could still do this. This is my life’s mission, and I thank you.

Thank you, thank you for being here for me, so that I can continue to do this. I appreciate you so much. If you’re interested in doing the healing meditation for abuse survivors, click on this link, The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop.

Divorce isn’t just paperwork—it’s a complex emotional and logistical process that’s almost impossible to navigate alone. Divorce and emotional abuse go hand-in-hand. If you’re struggling after divorce, the right support can make all the difference.

This episode is part of a series:

This episode follows Felicia’s Story
Part 1: This Is Why You’re Not Codependent – Felicia’s Story
Part 2: Divorce and Emotional Abuse – Felicia Checks in 9 Months Later (THIS EPISODE)

If you’re a woman going through the pain of a divorce, you don’t have to go through it alone. We are here to help with three easy-to-use resources that can support you as you heal and get back on your feet. Plus, you can access all of them online from anywhere.

Did you know that many women are/were emotionally abused to the point that it resulted in divorce. But they blamed themselves (not knowing it was emotional abuse)??

Do you feel confused by your soon-to-ex’s behavior? Does he blame you for his affair or for the divorce? Are you questioning your own reality and emotions? Our Free Emotional Abuse Quiz can help you identify what actually happened.

By understanding the true cause of the divorce, you can start making quick forward progress toward healing.

The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helps women understand emotional abuse, manipulation, and recovery after betrayal. Most episodes feature a woman sharing her story. Listening to these stories can help you feel seen, give you clarity, and show you actionable next steps for your own healing.

Healing doesn’t happen in isolation—it happens in a community of women who truly understand what you’re going through. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are designed to offer just that.

Picture joining a support session from your couch, your kitchen, or even your car. First, you meet a group of kind women who understand what you’re going through, because they’ve been through tough times too.

Hearing other women share their stories helps you feel understood. When you share your story, you get support and advice instead of judgment. Plus, these daily sessions are easy to join and won’t cost too much. There are more than 21 sessions every week, so it’s easy to find one that works for you. The women running the sessions have been through similar experiences, so they know how to provide the support you need.

Healing from divorce requires more than information and support—it takes strategy to achieve your goals. That’s where the Living Free Workshop gives you simple steps to protect your emotions and mind. Whether you’re still married, separated, or already divorced, this workshop can help. You’ll learn easy tools to understand your ex-husband’s actions and figure out what he might do next.

This workshop has 65 short video lessons, and each one is only about 3 minutes long. Plus, it comes with a free, printable workbook. And 13 Meditations. You’ll learn simple techniques to help you escape his chaos and control. With easy steps and clear instructions, you’ll know exactly what to do next.

Anne: Everyone knows divorce isn’t just paperwork. It’s a complex emotional and logistical process that’s almost impossible to navigate alone. Divorce and emotional abuse go hand in hand. So if you’re struggling after divorce, or making the decision to divorce, the right support can make all the difference.

Welcome back, Felicia.

Felicia: Thank you so much.

Anne: When I interviewed you five months ago, you felt rightfully very sad and frustrated. Because your community had turned against you, and you felt alone because of divorce and emotional abuse. Can you talk about what’s happened in the months since you came on the podcast?

Felicia: At the time I was about to get a divorce. I thought my whole community supported me. So it was like the bottom dropped out when I got the divorce, and my ex managed to turn everybody against me. I had people calling me and telling me how awful I was. And I said before it was not happy for me to meet someone in the grocery store.

It felt like, how could I be right and all these people be wrong? I felt like I had been in a safe place, like a good place when I got the divorce. I felt really healthy. And then suddenly I started to question my health, and in Christianity, you learn you can’t be the only right person.

So you need your community to help tell you if you’re wrong. If everybody says you’re wrong, you probably are. And that just wasn’t the case. I had to find where I was and cheer myself on. Because integrity is when you are right and have to stand alone. And that’s actually what I was doing.

Anne: During our last interview, you were really struggling. What changed?

Felicia: I did the Betrayal Trauma Meditations in The Living Free Workshop, and it was just … like I’m already traumatized. Why do I need to work so hard? The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Meditations give me truth that I think about and think about. Meditate on that. It’s true things about me, believing myself and regaining confidence. And that’s what I’ve done. I have my confidence back.

I feel like my brain is healthy for the first time in a long time. I’ve have community now. I attribute a lot of the confidence I have from the Meditation Workshop and the truth. It led me to be my own best friend, know the truth about myself. And stop second guessing myself based on how everybody’s treating me. I first started playing the meditations while I went on a walk, and I would just think about the meditations as I walked.

They were all centered around the truth about who I am as a person. And they helped me. Because I needed the truth about who I am in the meditations. And I didn’t need to dig and try to change. It was right there for me.

Anne: Yeah, I love that about the betrayal meditations.

That women don’t need to change or be anything different. Who they are right now is good enough, is exactly who they need to be.

Felicia: Women need to learn about how beautiful they already are. The only thing that needs to change is for them to realize the truth about themselves. Last time we talked, I wasn’t that spunky about finding new friends. Because I was still so upset that my other friends dropped me, and dealing with divorce and emotional abuse.

Felicia: And I just figured, why find new ones, it’s going to be less real? But what happened is I just kept going to this church, and it’s really small. And they’re like older women. Lately, I needed help legally, because I’m fighting against my ex. I needed some people to write letters. And I’ve been going there a year now. They know what’s happened to me, and they’re just for me.

Everything I want to do, they want to back me up on, and they have seen me be a mom. And they think I’m really good. And it wasn’t until I needed these letters written that I realized I have so many people that are helping me at a time that I really need it. Whereas all my friends have always been out of convenience, and then conveniently dropped off when I needed help. They weren’t helping when I went through divorce.

I realized I still had lifelong friends that I hadn’t kept up with. And now I’m realizing how many people I have. But more importantly, the depth of support they’ve brought me.

Anne: When I interviewed you nine months ago, you thought you had no one. But, I’m gonna restate here and see if I’m hearing you correctly. Number one, You didn’t realize there were more people who supported you than you thought, but also maybe number two, that many of those people you mourned their loss.

Felicia: Yeah, I was in a time when you’re believing two realities. I know everyone said they’re not your real friends. But they felt so real, and then when the rubber hit the road, they weren’t actually there at all.

Felicia: I was mad. I wish they hadn’t left me, and supported my ex, who was abusive. They knew he was abusive, inauthentic, and still left me. I don’t want friends like that, but I wanted friends like that. They were my friends, now I fully realize how unfriendly they were. They were my enemies. I call them my enemies now, because they were mean to me when I thought I had their support. And I was dealing with divorce and emotional abuse, it was all so heavy.

So now I’m fully realizing who they were. I guess, because I fully realized who I am and how I’ve only been trying to do the right thing. Not only did I not do anything wrong, I’ve been trying to do everything right. And found myself, and I don’t want them in my life. And they just happened to be moving out of town now, which is awesome. I can’t believe that happened.

Anne: That is awesome. I had a neighbor I did not like, and I actually put on my miracle board, which is like a vision board, that they move. I wrote on there that this family moves, and I walked out of my house one day. The for sale sign was in their front yard. And I was like, yes!

Felicia: I know, that’s how I feel. It was actually my pastor’s wife, like my best friend, who chewed me out and like swore at me on the phone. On the way to this interview, I just drove by your house and the for sale was at the end of her lane, just like you said, and I was like, YES!

Anne: Just now? You just saw it?

Felicia: Yes, I just saw it now. Yes, I just found out about all these people moving last week. I found out about all three of them moving on the same week.

Anne: That is awesome. I’m so happy for you.

Felicia: Yeah, I’m like, I can go to the store now. And I have my local church all to myself without all these hateful people around me. Someone has told me they’re afraid of me, and that’s why they’re leaving. It’s this spiritual thing, but honest to goodness, I became healthy, and now I found out they were gone.

Anne: So you’re feeling good, which is awesome. That’s the benefit of living free. Even when you’re still in a tough situation, you can start feeling peace inside. So you’ve struggled with his legal and emotional abuse during divorce. Right after the divorce, he started suing you for all sorts of things.

Felicia: Yes, since the divorce, he immediately started legal pursuit, and it was hard because his abuse was always hidden. And he got more aggressive, so my family got to see who he really was, for themselves. But the legal pursuit has been really hard. Before I did the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, I tried to give him what he wanted so that he would leave me alone. And then I found out that you don’t give an abuser what they want, so they’ll leave you alone.

They’re bullies, and they’re always gonna just make it worse. It has escalated to the point where he’s telling lies in court under oath about me.

Felicia: But what’s good about it is that anytime we’ve had a hearing and a trial is coming up, the judge has ruled in my favor. And I was just overlooking that because I was so scared and I feel so powerless. But the judge surprised me this last time and ruled that we keep the child support the same. I thought he was going to drop it, and then my lawyer told me, do what’s best for your family, and that’s all you need to do.

And when the judge asks you why you did something, you can tell him that you actually thought it was what was best for your family. And it was that statement that started to make me feel free again, because I was like, why do I need a lawyer to tell me to do what’s right for my family? Why did I not feel like I could do that?

But in this legal battle, I honestly felt like I don’t even know if I can do what’s right for my family. Because of the gaslighting to where they make you question whether you’re doing something right. And when my lawyer said that, it made me realize, yeah, I can do what’s right for my family. And then the excuse I will give will be that I thought it was right for my family.

Anne: That’s exactly what it was. You are trying to do the right thing. They are not trying to do the right thing. I’m so happy to hear that you have a good attorney and had a good ruling. That is rare when you’re dealing with divorcing an emotional abuser.

Anne: Did you think nine months ago that you would feel the way you feel now?

Felicia: Months ago, you told me it would get better, and you encouraged me to the point that I was like, oh my word. We could do an interview again, and I could see if I could heal. I had a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach talk to me at the beginning and say, what do you want? I actually said, I want to be a better mom and stop yelling at my kids. And I felt like that was totally unrelated to what I was going through. She said, that’s what’s going to happen then.

And she started asking me, what do you want here? What do you want there? And I wanted these healthy things, she said, you’ll get those healthy things. And now? I’ve tried and tried over the last months, plus the whole time I’ve been divorced. I’ve been like, where is my healing? I still felt traumatized by the emotional abuse. And what surprised me the most was that I was just striving. And suddenly it just came.

I attributed it to God, but when I went on Facebook, in a healing from trauma group, and shared that God healed me. They said, would you please put trigger warning, religion? And I was like, no, it wasn’t religion at all. Like, none of the religion healed me. God healed me. And bam, I just want people to be encouraged that you can be trying to heal, trying to heal. And then suddenly it will come.

Anne: The healing comes when we’re validated, and when we’re safe. The safety is the healing. So maybe something to consider is that the reason why you healed is because you learned safety strategies. You learned how to protect yourself, and over time you got more and more safe from the emotional abuse. Like the judge ruling in your favor. That is instant healing.

Felicia: Yeah.

Anne: Justice is a form of instant healing. If your ex moves to a different state and never talked to you again. That is instant healing.

Felicia: Oh my word, yeah.

Anne: People who say you need to learn how to deal with it. You just need to learn blah, blah, blah. I’m like, no, she just needs to not be abused anymore.

Felicia: Yes.

Anne: She needs to be in a safe place. And when you’re in safety, healing happens. I saw that same thing. And I struggled with post divorce abuse for eight years. I lost a court case, and then I was like, I’ve got to figure this out. I need strategies. That’s when I discovered the Living Free message strategies. It’s also when I wrote the meditations for myself. I did the meditations myself, then used the Living Free strategies and delivered my kids.

Anne: My ex basically signed the kids away out of court. And when they brought me safety, and then I replicated that with other victims. And they told me how amazing these strategies were. Once I knew they worked for everyone, not just for me, I wrote them in the Living Free Workshop so that everyone could learn them. He signed the kids away. And I was instantly healed.

Instant, because we’re not crazy. There’s nothing wrong with us. Our husbands abuse us. For women listening, if they’re like, that’s great, but that doesn’t help that it just comes. What am I supposed to do in the meantime, right? Let’s talk about this. Things that you did in the meantime, you enrolled in Living Free. You did the Meditations. Can you talk about the dance class?

Felicia: It’s actually an app, and I’m just dancing every day. I always wanted to dance through my pregnancies and stuff because it’s so healthy. But I’ve never danced. So I just wanted to learn the different types of dancing, and I try to dance for 10 minutes a day. Everything, little by little, is helping. I’m also on depression medication. So part of me wants to be like, Oh, it’s just that, but no, I’ve been on depression medication before. It’s not that.

Actually, you know what I think happened? My ex always wanted me to think everything was me. It was all me. I had to change and become better. I talked in our last episode about how I thought I was a monster when I got married. And I always thought everything was my fault, and that wasn’t true. That was because of emotional abuse that I felt this way.

Felicia: That abuse mindset, where everything’s my fault, and it’s all because of me. Is what he wants me to think. And that’s what he still wants me to think. But the good thing is, the healthier I became, the more distant we became. And that’s exactly what’s happening now. I found myself divorced from the emotional abuse. So yeah, things are super hard still, the abuse is rampant. We have a trial coming up, but there is something about focusing on the truth.

Anne: In the Living Free Workshop, it talks about how these men are exploitative. They want to exploit you, they don’t want you to go away. They want you close, so they can exploit you for energy. Your ex loves to play the victim in court right now. “She’s ruining me. She’s doing this.” And he feels like court is a great place to showcase how you’ve wronged him. But if you had wronged him, wouldn’t he want to be away from you?

That’s how we can tell the victims from the perpetrators. After divorce and emotional abuse, victims desperately want to be away from them. We don’t ever have to talk again. I don’t want to have anything to do with you. And the abusers are the ones who are like, wait, I can’t exploit her anymore. What excuse can I use to message her? Oh, maybe I left my rock collection at her house, which they never cared about before, ever, ever.

And then suddenly they’re like, this is the most important thing to me. And you took it from me when they could have just picked it up. So that exploitative character keeps them around.

Anne: So the Living Free strategies are how to be unexploitable. Which does escalate them for a second. Because they’re like, wait, wait, wait. I was using her for this, and now I can’t use her anymore. But then eventually, there’s nothing for them to hold on to.

Felicia: I am still waiting for him to finally de-escalate. But, yeah, I use the Living Free strategies exclusively. That’s the only thing I use to communicate with him. It was life changing. I only use those because they are so helpful. I go back to them. Let’s see, how should I respond to this right now? And it is helpful.

Anne: Well, with your dancing, the meditations, living free and message strategies, I’m so happy to hear. That even though it’s still hard, you are feeling better from the abuse. Felicia, thanks for coming back on and giving us an update.

Felicia: Thank you so much.

Felicia spent years wondering if she was codependent. She didn’t realize she was experiencing emotional and psychological abuse. If you’re wondering if you’re codependent. Hopefully Felicia’s story can help you see why you’re not codependent.

If you’re experiencing emotional abuse check out our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session Schedule, we’d love to see you in a session.

This episode follows Felicia’s Story
Part 1: This Is Why You’re Not Codependent – Felicia’s Story (THIS EPISODE)
Part 2: Divorce and Emotional Abuse – Felicia Checks in 9 Months Later

Often, Betrayal Trauma victims have little to no control over their own bodies, privacy, finances, and other aspects of their lives. This leads many women to engage in safety-seeking behaviors. She’s trying to protect herself, which is good! Some people want to put these healthy behaviors in a negative light. They call her codependent, misleading her.

They tell her to blame herself: “What have YOU done to contribute to the problem?” This wrong advice helps the abuser continue to harm her. It also makes it harder for the victim to set healthy boundaries.

Many women find that after they create distance between herself and emotional and psychological abuse, what they thought were “character flaws” often fade away. These traits were really healthy resistance to abuse. They helped her protect herself. She’s not codependent.

Anne: I have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Felicia, on today’s episode. Welcome, Felicia.

Felicia: Thank you.

Anne: I’m so grateful you’re sharing your story with us. We’re going to be addressing the label of codependent. But let’s start at the beginning. Can you talk about how he seemed to you at first?

Felicia: We met at a Bible college and the first thing that I asked is, Could I use his book? Because I didn’t want to buy the professor’s book. He said, Oh, this is a wonderful book. I’ll buy it for you. I want to tell you my intentions are not to hit on you or to flirt with you. So I love that he was so straightforward and didn’t have any other intentions.

We became friends because I believed that he said what he meant. We fell in love, but there was no flirting, we didn’t have the same friends. So I was like, this is really weird, but I really, really like you. But it’s not like this desperate feeling, and that’s how we started off.

Felicia: It was a long distance relationship at first.

Anne: Looking back, do you think that he was being honest or do you think he really did have intentions to have a relationship with you?

Felicia: I think he just told me what I wanted to hear. I was like, it’s not this desperate feeling. And he was like, me either. So let’s not date right away. I thought we would date. Because we both just told each other we liked each other.

It was the relationship I thought I wanted at first. Except for lack of an emotional side to it. But yeah looking back, I think he just is really good at picking up on what people want to hear. Then filling that in.

Anne: Like low key. Hey, we’re just friends. Type grooming.

Anne: How did it transition into dating?

Felicia: I was just leaving the area. He said, yeah, let’s just do emails and phone calls. He said, I want you to pray about this for one week, that we should be boyfriend and girlfriend. I was just kind of disappointed that there wasn’t this emotional connection. I didn’t have any boyfriends through life to speak of. He said I want you to think about what you need in a relationship. Then we dated long distance still just talking on the phone.

Felicia: It wasn’t gooey at all. They were like really good conversations. That to me was the perfect part of our relationship. Very good conversations about how we felt and thought. They weren’t long and drawn out. It was just fun to talk to him and then we started setting boundaries.

He said, We’re probably going to pursue each other for marriage. Also, I think that I should come and get you. He was in Georgia and wanted to come to Idaho to get me. He said we should live in the same community if we’re going to see if we’re fit for marriage. We laid down physical boundaries, and I was like, okay, cool. I definitely don’t want to get over involved physically before I’m married. He said he needed these boundaries for himself.

But as soon as we saw each other, we started crossing the boundaries that we had laid. It didn’t feel good. I didn’t like it. By the time we were back to our destination, where we were going to live in the same town. I was kind of like, what did I get into? And that was when we were dating. We weren’t even engaged yet. We got engaged several months later and married the next year.

Anne: So at this time, you’re thinking, all that stuff we talked about. The boundaries that we set up, he didn’t adhere to any of them. Do you feel like you were coerced into it? He’s already setting you up to be responsible for him not keeping the boundary, and you identifying as codependent.

Felicia: Yeah, I thought it was sinning. And he was like, we can pray for peace and forgiveness. Because Jesus will give us that. It would feel so good and amazing and freeing, then within hours a day or whatever later, we’d be at it again. He would say that I was seducing him. Which I would feel really bad about. So I just thought I was bad. And we went to our family and our church and told them, we’re in sin.

We’re not having it, but we’re breaking boundaries. And we tried to get help, and I thought, we just can’t resist each other. So then when we got engaged, I thought, let’s just get married right away. At least we have that connection.

Felicia: But when we got married, it immediately stopped. We didn’t have a connection. We had a really bad beginning of marriage, no honeymoon spot, we would fight. I thought, Oh, it’s because we were sinful before. But I married thinking I was pure and it was confusing. How did we struggle so bad before marriage? Now that we’re married, it immediately stopped.

Anne: He’s basically saying, I’m so attracted to you that I cannot keep my hands off you. So even though I’ve set these boundaries, it’s impossible to keep them. Because I’m so attracted to you. Don’t worry about it because we can just call on Jesus, he understands and we’ll both be fine. We can repent and yet he never actually repents because he keeps doing it.

Then you get married and then he’s just not attracted to you anymore, apparently. Because now it’s very easy for him to avoid physical contact. Is that what I’m hearing?

Felicia: You said it all right. He made a lot of excuses. So that period of the marriage lasted 12 years. I lived in like a giant fog of why our intimate life had never been ignited once we got married.

Felicia: It was kind of the big red flag, but emotionally we didn’t connect. We had a really bad honeymoon and after that he would say things like, it is just emotional for me. So if we’re not connected, I don’t want to have it with you. Things like that, that made me feel like, well, I can’t force him.

Over 12 years, I mean, we started having kids together. My drive waned, so it was kind of like, well, it’s no big deal now. But I would ask things like, why he thought it was like that. And one time he just said, he was going through medical school so it was so strenuous. I just looked up things and thought, I bet he’s too busy.

Anne: He was using any excuse he could get his hands on. Anything that he heard, maybe women are like, Oh, I’m not emotionally connected so I don’t want to have it. Which was not his case. Because I’m guessing we’re going to find out real soon that he’s having it with someone else. But he’s just trying to grab hold of any excuse he can. To groom you into thinking it’s your fault that he’s not interested.

When did you find out about the explicit materials use or the infidelity?

Felicia: After twelve years of marriage. So it was in twenty, twenty one. I think it was the Holy Spirit coming into my intuition, cause I was just like, something is wrong. For some reason it’s bothering me more now, and I’m not gonna let it stop bothering me. I had gone to lots of counseling over the years, and never really found a problem with me.

I went through a major lifestyle program, like residential treatment program for depression. That always owned up to being postpartum depressed and seasonal depression and all this stuff. Finally was like, you know what? It’s my marriage.

Then I went to counseling and being like, it’s my marriage, help me. But at this point in time, I couldn’t sleep. I was just crying all the time. I was pregnant with our fourth kid, but I was like, this is not the same thing as pregnancy hormones. This is something deeper.

So I just started digging and finding it on his device and I was like, the kids could have found this.

You got to make sure that this doesn’t pop up on your computer screen. And he’s like, yeah, you’re right. That’s really bad. I’ll make sure I don’t leave that up anymore. But then I dug and dug and dug and kept saying, tell me the whole truth. Because I need to know that I know everything, because I’m finding images on his device.

Anne: You’re finding lots of exploitative material and he’s giving excuses or saying, I don’t know.

Felicia: Just kind of acting like he used a thing to watch movies. It would just pop up so he would just exit back out, you know? That’s all it is.

Felicia: One thing that he’d never done is ever had a big problem he’d been sorry about. I’d had like, a number of problems but he’d never been like, you know what, here’s this big issue or problem. I feel like In marriages two people usually have problems, but in our marriage, it was always just me.

Anne: Tell me more about that. Was it like, Oh, I have a problem with my friend, for example. Or I have a problem because I’m sick. Or was it like, you mean just like general everyday problems that humans have? Like he didn’t have any of these regular problems.

Felicia: He didn’t have regular problems. I would be like, do you think you’re a sinner? And he’s like, oh yeah, of course I’m a sinner. But he never had any confession of like, you know what, I feel really bad about this. He didn’t actually even say sorry, so I didn’t learn about gaslighting until much later. But If I came to him with, like, this makes me feel bad, when this happens. It would turn into, like, you don’t know how hard it is to have a depressed wife.

Felicia: Or, he was now in medical residency, so he’s like, I think you have ADD. So I actually went to my own doctor saying, like, I think I might have ADD. And my doctor was like, No, you don’t have ADD at all. He didn’t even seem like he had problems. I was like, I guess he’s this amazing person, I guess I’m just a monster. I decided when I got married that I was a monster and I never knew that I was. When we ever had a problem, it would go back to, I bet he hasn’t forgiven me.

For how badly I treated him when we were first married. That’s what I decided it was, I just treated him really bad.

He’s like a super awesome guy. And he just can’t forgive me because he’s so sensitive. I hurt him that bad. He never had any offerings for why our marriage sucked. So I would offer things.

Anne: But he wouldn’t.

Felicia: Yeah, he would never.

Anne: Abusers have a very distinct pattern. They only start their story after the real victim has started to resist the abuse. So the beginning of your marriage, you’re being abused and you’re trying to resist this abuse.

He starts the story with like, everything was fine. Nothing was wrong. Suddenly she started treating me really bad rather than saying, I actually coerced her. And made her seem like I was super attracted to her. And then we got married and I completely ignored her and didn’t have it with her at all.

Anne: And I was a complete jerk, and then she was trying to resist me being terrible. If they started the story there, it would make sense. But instead they’re like, “Yeah, everything was fine.” We got married. I thought our marriage was great. They don’t tell people I was refusing to have it with her. I was giving her the impression I wasn’t into to her.

So then when people hear his side of the story. They’re like, Wow, she just out of the blue is like super mad at you.

Felicia: The other thing is there’s this common, I don’t know if that’s like a religious thing or whatever. But where like the man’s passive and the woman pushes him to not be passive. And that pushing to not be passive is really bad. That’s what I did. I was like, you know what, that was really bad that I pushed him to not be passive.

I would let myself get all enraged at his passiveness. But looking back, it was like this passive aggression that he knew he was doing. And like, silent treatments, he’s very argumentative. Somehow he would like, shut down right when I ignited. Anyway, so I learned to like, turn that off. And stop pushing him, especially so that we could have children.

Cause he said, we can’t have children until I stop this aggression and our marriage gets better. So I like became someone who just swallowed everything. Now I go back and I’m seeing there was a beautiful woman inside of me clawing. Saying, this is wrong. Something is completely messed it up and I disagree. And I’m not just going to go along with it.

Felicia: That’s what happened. I became someone who just went along with stuff. I didn’t I didn’t talk to him very much at all because he was just going to disagree. We were going to have an argument so I just listened to him. He would just go on and on and on and on. He was a like a monologue-er. That’s where we were when I found it.

I finally said I have to know everything. And he was like, oh, no, you know everything. And I said, okay, I’m never gonna talk to you about this again. I’m gonna ask you one more time. Do I know everything? Have you told me the whole truth about this exploitative materials use that I keep finding? And he said, yes. So I said, okay, I’m never going to talk about it again.

I wrote him an email, because I couldn’t sleep at night. And I was like, I know that there’s something wrong. I said that either Satan’s tormenting me. Or the Holy Spirit’s trying to communicate something to me. And that’s when he said, okay, let’s talk. That’s when he took me on a walk, and we dropped the kids off.

Then he told me the whole truth about the previous 12 years. And how he’d watched this off and on. He said it was like, good exploitative material, it wasn’t violent, or whatever. He said he’d done that off and on for 12 years, actually his whole life.

Anne: I feel like when they give details, you know that that’s the thing that they’re lying about. Because, why do you need to say that? A lot of times they do this fake honesty where they’re like, this is the whole truth. I highly doubt that it was. Do you feel the same way?

Felicia: I feel the same way. I mean, I felt peace for a little bit. I was like, you know what, our marriage is totally gonna work now. Because we have honesty. But the relationship was just as broken as it ever had been.

Anne: At this point where you’re like, okay, he’s told me the “whole truth.” So I’m not really going to bring it up again. Did he go to therapy? Was he just like, okay, now that I’ve told you the whole truth, I’m never going to do it again.

Felicia: I started bringing it up again. So I never decided, you know what, I’m not going to bring it up again. I did that email, and then he told me the whole truth, and then I just took the liberty to put the relationship into his hands. And be like, give me a reason for all of this. Because It was just such big thing. That our whole marriage was.

I’m constantly like, How do two people find each other like this, fall in love. Then it becomes what it is? It never made sense. I walked around meeting people, older women, being like, Can we talk? Thinking that they would be like, my mentor and help me find out. But it was me that needed to find out the truth.

Felicia: No one else knew. When I finally found out, I was like, I feel like this is the reason for our whole entire relationship. And then that’s when I realized about covert emotional abuse and covert narcissism. One, when you watch this stuff, you become less emotionally attentive and able.

Anne: I’ve started seeing you become less interested instead of “blaming” the use. It’s like when you use you don’t have the desire to be intimate with people anymore. It’s not like it makes you that way. You just don’t care anymore. Because I think if we say, if you view it, then your brain gets shut off. It sort of takes the choice away.

We have to recognize that they could still say, wait a minute, this is hurting my wife, this is hurting me. This is hurting my family. I don’t want to do this anymore, but they just don’t have the desire to make anything different.

Felicia: He did start into therapy. He of course he had problems with his counselor. And didn’t think it was working. So he wanted to, stop. I think he’d like jumped around. Needed to find like the perfect therapy. But he found his own therapy and like his own books that he thought he should read. I actually thought that sources that he found were very good and should have been helpful.

Felicia: But our relationship was not getting any better. One thing that bothered him as I started to say that he needed to take all the responsibility for the pathology in our marriage. I was like you need to take all the responsibility for that. Because along the way, I had been taking responsibility for each bad thing that I thought I did.

If he brought something up, I would be like, you know what, you’re right. And I would try to change. But he never had, then I was like, well now you have to take the responsibility for the whole pathology. He took that to mean I was blaming all of our marital problems on him. And he’s like, this is just too much. This is just too much pressure.

Anne: For some reason it wasn’t too much pressure for him to blame you for all of the emotional abuse.

Felicia: Exactly, I know. I’m like, Oh my gosh, you have no idea what I’ve been putting on my shoulders this whole time.

Anne: Also, it was 100 percent his fault. So, what’s the problem? Literally was 100 percent his fault.

Felicia: He wants to back up until the original in a marriage, it takes two people to make it work. So like, that’s what I had gone by. And I had tried to be the person to stand up and say, I’m going to do my part. Then after he completely has a secret for over a decade, that I never found out about.

That I couldn’t know about, now all of a sudden I’m like, this is your fault. If he really felt sorry he would have been like, you’re totally right, it’s all my fault.

Felicia: But instead he’s like, oh my gosh, that’s too much pressure. This is a marriage, you can’t blame it all on me. I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery at that time. I grew a lot and found out a lot, it really helped me. He was just focused on this awful stuff and I was finding out that this is not about exploitative material. This is about every way we relate.

The gaslighting and the blaming, it’s just like a physical abuse problem where the husband batters the wife. Except for you don’t want to look bad by actually hitting me. So you hit me emotionally, and there are no bruises. I mean, that’s, I feel like it’s 100 percent what the problem was. So I started to get to safety. We had times where I left the house for a few weeks. I think at a time, like three times that year. That was the year we got divorced.

Anne: Divorcing a narcissist is so hard. When did you think that you might be codependent?

Felicia: It was probably 2021. Actually, before I found out about his use. I was calling myself an empath because he would come home and have these rages. And it would really bother me. Sliming cupboards when he’s cleaning and stonewalling. I would be like, you know what, this is my fault because he’s had a really bad day.

He didn’t tell me that I did anything wrong. And he’s like, he’s not telling me that, you know, I’m in a bad mood and don’t talk to me. So I was blaming it on that I feel him too much. Like he’s coming home and I’m like feeling all of this. Then I’m starting in on this fix it thing, which is labeling me as codependent. When I should just be like, Oh, you know, you’re allowed to have a bad day. That’s okay if you slam cupboards and stuff because you’re not hurting me.

Anne: During the time where you think maybe you’re an empath, was that when you thought that maybe you were codependent?

Felicia: I guess we have to kind of define codependency.

Anne: The official definition of codependent, which I do not think codependent is a thing. So I don’t even want to be like this. I want to be like, people have made this up and it’s a victim blaming thing that people use.

And in their minds, this is what codependent means. Characterized by excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner. Typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction.

Anne: So it’s saying you’re the one with the problem because you, Felicia. Which this is not true, but this is why it’s victim blaming.

You have this excessive emotional and psychological reliance on him. That’s not the case. He’s abusing you and you’re just trying to survive. Because in trying to get to safety, you’re trying to figure out what do I have control over? Maybe if I don’t feel all of his feelings. If I’m not so excessively reliant on him, then things will get better is what you’re thinking?

You are trying to make him into a safe person and other people are defining it as codependent.

Felicia: Yeah, almost like, oh, I need him to come home and be a peaceful person. That’s really bad of me to need someone to come home and be peaceful. Is that really codependent? That’s exactly it. And you know what? I do remember asking a counselor back in 2017 if I was codependent. She said, oh my gosh being codependent is a big problem. Let’s work on that.

I always felt like it was led by me to try to find what was wrong. I never wanted to be like, I’m here because I hate my marriage and my marriage is like ruining my life. So I thought it was a broader problem. Maybe it was my growing up or my background. Then when I found out it was exploitative material, she said, “I want to tell you this is abuse.”

I kind of rolled my eyes, because I was like, oh brother, like, abuse. That was just annoying to me.

Felicia: And I think it was just too much for me to look into, so I waited six or nine months. And that’s when I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And was like, yeah, it’s abuse.

Anne: So you didn’t stay in that codependent place forever. Women think that if their codependent then they can fix things. You find BTR. You were like, Oh, I’m not codependent, it’s really important to me that women know they are not codependent. Did you use BTR services at all?

Felicia: I did the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, and I did the BTR.ORG Individual Sessions. The group sessions were mind blowing. Because it was the first time I’d found a bunch of other people that completely related with absolutely everything I was saying. I thought this covert emotional abuse was like a specific problem that I had that, you know, was obscure.

Yeah, everyone in the group understood and you didn’t have to get them to understand what you were talking about. It was just like, yeah, we get it.

Anne: How was that different than the therapy that you had been going to?

Felicia: All those years. I was like looking for friendships, mentorships, counselors. Who would say, “Oh I found the problem that is perplexing your whole life.” I mean, it’s dragging you down. There’s that cave analogy where I’ve been like locked in a cave with an abuser. But also like a slave, a slave who like feels they need to be there because they need to help the master because that’s going to be a beautiful relationship.

Anne: Once you can help him enough, it’s going to be great. Just hold on a little bit longer.

Felicia: Yeah, it’s going to be a good marriage. That’s what marriage is.

Felicia: And now here I am finding out that it is not the right way. And people don’t understand. I tell my friends and family pretend like this is physical abuse because it’s exactly the same. I don’t know what people think emotional abuse is. But it seems at first that it’s like an excuse or something.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery answered all of that. I was just desperate for years to find an answer. And it answered like all of that confusion that I had. I’m like, I don’t know how these other wives find out about it and then they just go on In their marriage. For me, I couldn’t be safe doing that.

Anne: Let’s talk to women who are like, “Well, what if it’s not abuse?” who think, “Maybe I’m codependent.” or ” Maybe he’s an addict.”

How do you know that the Betrayal Trauma Recovery model, the abuse model is real. Because I think some women are worried, I’ve thought it’s that before and it hasn’t been that. So there’s no reason to go down this abuse thing. Because I’m just going to find out in six months that it’s not abuse, that it’s actually something else.

Felicia: I’m still kind of in that, because now that we’re divorced, the co parenting is a nightmare. And I still am like, is it me?

Anne: This is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop.

Felicia: Not only that, but one humongous piece of the story is that right when I got the divorce, he turned all my friends against me. I have no friends now. It’s really hard to go to a church where you’re connected. And you have, good friends that you get together with, I told them about the abuse.

And they were like yeah, and I didn’t think they totally got it. I didn’t think they were gonna disown me. Like, these people have called me names and are not fun to see at the grocery store. So, it’s hard to believe that It’s not me, and so I’ve wondered if it’s me.

I think relationships, good marriage relationships are not confusing. There’s problems. You can see what’s going on. You can try to fix the problems and try to love each other more. But this relationship was completely confusing. There was no reconciliation. There was no now we can love each other now that we found that out. None of that. There was never any of that.

Anne: I think some women do go through a period of, Oh, now that we know this, things will get better. And if they do go to a addiction recovery specialist, they’ll actually tell them that. They’ll actually say things will get better now that you know this. They kind of do get better for a little bit, but then they don’t get all the way better and things are still confusing.

Anne: Then some addiction recovery folks, like a 12 step group or something, they’ll say, well, now you have to stay in recovery. And wife, you also have to do 12 step and you have to do this the rest of your life. Because this will always be an issue. Then do you just keep seeing that pattern over and over? And the problem is an abuse problem that keeps cropping up.

We all have healthy relationships with people who aren’t perfect. You can laugh about it. Like, Oh man, that’s funny. She sometimes is disorganized and she forgets things. She doesn’t become less forgetful necessarily. But the resolution is you learn, Oh, she’s forgetful sometimes. And that’s okay. We can work with this.

Abuse is not something that you can work with because abuse is always a power over dynamic. And so anytime it gets to a place where something feels resolved and you feel equal. Then the abuser will try to push you down again somehow. There’s never going to be any resolution possible.

Felicia: Trying to stop it, but it’s like the it is a symptom of this power and control. So it’d be like if you get physically abused and you try to stop the hitting. And the solution is to stop the hitting. That doesn’t make sense. They’re hitting you because of a power and control. You’re not just gonna try to stop the hitting and be like for the rest of your life. We’re gonna just try to stop the hitting.

Anne: But you can still lie and manipulate and all kinds of other things.

Felicia: Yeah, I also learned about the secret sexual basement from Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It’s like, why is it abusive when someone lies to you? When you get married to that person, and let’s say you build a house together. And then after 12 years you realize there’s this basement that no one knew about.

That person got to go into the basement whenever they did, because they always knew about it. The whole family is like, what? I didn’t even know that we had this basement. That’s why it’s like abuse, because it’s It’s his choice when he wants to go. Also, why he wants to go, he knows all about it. Everyone else just has no clue that it was even in the makings of a construction. Much less what the content of that basement is.

Anne: It’s so hard, and it’s also hard when other people don’t know how to help victims identify this, right? Because they’ll go and say, my husband, to use this metaphor a little bit longer, he left, I don’t know where he’s going, I’m so confused. And instead of saying, oh, well, maybe he’s an abuser. Maybe you’re being psychologically abused, maybe he’s doing it in the basement, you know? As victims it’s hard to know the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict.

They’re like, oh, he just probably needs his space, and it’s healthy for people to have space, and then it just gets so confusing.

Felicia: Yeah, the normal marriage wisdom doesn’t work for abuse situations. Just don’t expect so much. That doesn’t work. Give, give, give, and don’t expect anything in return. I mean, those were the things I grew up hearing about marriages. If you could guarantee me that both people were doing that, that’s true.

But the minute one person does that and the other person has no intentions of doing that. That’s what was baffling is after all these years, I’m like, I can’t believe that we’re marriage partners.

This is the person I’m supposed to be more intimate with than anyone else in the whole world. And I find out that you’ve been doing this. Against me and they say it’s not about you that exploitative material isn’t about you. That’s also very disturbing and not helpful. I don’t know who it’s about but it’s totally done to me. When you say to your wife, I don’t want to have it. No, thanks. I’m not in the mood. Or whatever your reasoning is, and then you’re off, having it with yourself.

Anne: It’s not true because they are in the mood to have it, but they’d rather have it with the computer. They’re not being truthful when they say that. They’re not being truthful when they say “I’m not in the mood.”

Anne: They’re in the mood all the time to have it with someone else. Instead they should say, “Oh, I totally want to have it.

I have it so much. I do every day, twice a day. When I look at stuff online, I just don’t want to have it with you. That would be the truth. Then you’d be like, Oh, whoa. Instead, he’s just happy to have you think that you’re just unattractive, and somehow he doesn’t want to have it at all because you’re the way that you are. That’s absolutely not true.

Felicia: There’s so much problem in that, when you really think about a husband and a wife. What you just said is like, can you believe that would just be a simple problem? No. There’s so much, on every level, of betrayal right there. My ex explained to me that when he was trying to get me to see what it really was.

But when he said this, it was helpful. He’s like, it’s like going through a drive thru and ordering whatever you want. Then going and eating it in your car. You didn’t want to eat it in front of everybody because it’s kind of embarrassing that you’re a pig, or whatever. Even though it’s bad that he was trying to get me to understand that, that is exactly what it is.

Felicia: It’s like a menu, and I wasn’t on the menu. Almost ever. I’m like barely ever on the menu.

Anne: Well, and you don’t want to be on the menu.

Felicia: I don’t want to be on the menu either.

Anne: Basically, you’re not a person to them. That’s just gross. No woman wants to be like, Oh yeah, I’m on the menu. Yay. Like, no.

Felicia: You’re exactly right.

Anne: Why do you think it takes victims so long to realize they’re a victim of emotional abuse?

Felicia: I don’t know. For me, like I said, I kind of rolled my eyes when I heard abuse. Because it’s like, oh great, everything’s abuse nowadays.

Felicia: Abuse is one sided. I get into a marriage and if it’s abuse, I have to be like, you have a problem with hurting me. And it’s not my fault. And it ruins our relationship, but you need to change, and I can do nothing about it. That sucks. Not only am I not gonna say it’s my fault, but you’re not gonna say it’s your fault either. And I can’t do anything about it. The powerlessness, I guess.

Anne: It’s awful. I think that’s why women sometimes like the word codependent because It seems more empowering to them in the moment than abuse. Because if you are codependent then there is something you can do about it. If you’re partially responsible, by being codependent then you can do something about it. But if you’re not responsible for it at all, you can’t. And that feels terrible. Some women are like, I’d rather think I was codependent because then I have some power in the situation.

Whereas If I say it’s abuse, then the only thing I can do is get to safety. It doesn’t necessarily mean divorce. You can work towards safety. And he could have an epiphany like we talk about in the BTR BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. At any given time, he could enter reality and realize, Oh, I am being abusive.

I’m not going to do this anymore. But if he’s doing it on purpose, you telling him, “Hey, this is abuse,” is only going to make him abuse you more. Because he’s trying to shut that down.

Felicia: Right, and there’s obviously a power dynamic anyway. That makes it worse now the powerful person is mad, basically.

I used to think it was wrong for me to think that my husband should treat me more affectionate, more loving. those are woman qualities. You shouldn’t expect a man to have those woman qualities. He can be gruff and, and kind of dumb, kind of clueless.

It was a thread throughout our whole marriage where he’s accidentally doing stuff to me. But because I’m extremely sensitive it causes a problem, but he’s really just like bumbling around in life. He can’t be hurting me if it’s not intentional.

He only can hurt me if he purposely did it. That was grooming, where I was like, made to believe that his intentions were always good. So I shouldn’t accuse him of doing anything that might say that he had bad intentions, because he never did.

Anne: Well, and the problem with that is the reason why they’re so hell bent on proving that their intentions are good. And that they didn’t mean to do it on purpose is because they did mean it on purpose. That is so hard for women to understand. That they want you to think. that they are doing it accidentally. Then they can kind of keep doing it because they always have a reason to do it. Oh, it was an accident.

Anne: Of course I don’t think that if they said to their wives, no, I do this on purpose so I can exploit you. The wives would immediately be like, Oh, what? No, so they have to continually convince their victims that It’s accidental.

Therapists love that too. Oh, you’re doing it because of your childhood trauma. Or because of this and that, and whatever excuse they can think of, because it’s just too hard to admit. No, I do this on purpose because if I didn’t, I would have to take out the trash. And I would have to make dinner. I would have to help drive the kids around, and I don’t want to do that.

I just want to exploit her. And so I’m going to keep doing this instead. It’s absolutely more socially acceptable to pretend like you’re doing it on accident.

Anne: So now that you’re divorced and you can still see that he is abusive. Because he’s still doing it. now. he’s still blaming you and causing problems and co parenting is just an absolute nightmare. What would you say to women who are starting this process of, well, I’m not sure if he’s so abusive. Maybe I can do something about it. Maybe I am codependent. What would you say to them?

Felicia: The part that I’m still wrapping my head around is my whole community of believers just abandon me.

Anne: Like your congregation or your church?

Felicia: Yeah, that’s where I had friends, and I mean, we were moving cross country. I’ve lived all over the place in his educational and career pursuit. But I had lived where I lived for a couple of years. It was going to be like our forever home. I actually found friends, really good friends, right away. I guess I’m just mind boggled that they turned against me.

They do not want to have anything to do with me and they must believe I’m the bad guy. I don’t know what they believe about me, what lies were told about me. There’s three towns where I don’t even want to go to the grocery store. Because I have friends from those towns that I have seen at the grocery store. And had a bad encounter with.

That doesn’t even answer your question at all. It’s part of the story that’s the cliffhanger. Where I’m just trying to get healthy again, and stand up for myself. Because I know I’m right. And I’m trying to be my best friend that listens to me.

Anne: Would you say that maybe what you’re struggling with is all of this secondary abuse that you’re experiencing? Because he has purposefully now tried to convince all of these people. And actually not just tried, been successful in convincing them that you’re the abuser on purpose, to isolate you and hurt you.

So now it’s like, oh, I thought I was so healed. I thought I understood, but he’s still actively trying to harm you. By harming your relationships with other people. He’s still actively abusing you.

Felicia: I told everyone the truth. He admitted to it and the divorce was supposed to be in agreement. I wanted to divorce him. I wanted people to know that this is because of his abuse that I’m doing this. He was saying yeah. Now my community is beating me up in the same way I always was.

They’re calling me a liar and I have like this fear now of, I’m a victim! I’m afraid of being like that. But that’s actually what’s happening. I’m another victim, and this time, it’s my whole community.

Anne: None of the abuse you’re experiencing now is convincing you, even more, that it’s abuse.

Anne: You’ve done BTR group sessions. You’ve been to Individual Sessions. So the two things to do now are get more educated about are strategy and how to deal with all the unsafe people around you. And then start praying you can make friends in your area.

People that you’ve never met before. People who know nothing about it to be on your team in your local area. You will find people. And they will be a great support to you. It might take a minute and it might be someone who’s going through it herself right now. It might be someone who you’re actually going to be an answer to her prayer.

That she’s like, I’m going through this too, and I need help. Those are the women who tend to be the most helpful in this situation. You tend to end up supporting each other because we really, really get it. And that’s why Betrayal Trauma Recovery is awesome because there’s nobody here that isn’t on your side.

Felicia: I found a new friend and she started to sound exactly like me a while ago. And so I decided to be for her what I would have wanted. I thought, his might be it. But we’re not really hanging out that much anymore. I was trying to be gentle in case she wanted to stay. I just don’t want her to go not knowing that this might be the answer. It’s not a good way to make friends talking about people’s husbands badly.

Anne: Oh, that’s true. She didn’t realize he was abusive.

Felicia: I was like, do you guys have a good relationship? Is it confusing? Does he ever have any problems? She was answering them all in the red flag sense. So I was like, it might be this, you’re not codependent. She didn’t tell me no. Like, she said like, gosh, I had a feeling I should have been done with him a long time ago. They’re on their second marriage to each other. They already divorced and now they’re married.

Someone told me one time that they thought that my husband was into it. And I was just like, ugh, I did not like hearing that. I was like, No he’s not, You don’t understand. And now years later I’m like, she was right.

Anne: In order to make a true friendship, I feel like being honest is always the best policy. So if you’re like, hey, I feel like this is abuse. And they’re not ready for that for whatever reason. And it offends them and they don’t want to be your friend anymore. Then that’s okay. Maybe they’ll be your friend later.

Because you don’t want a service project. You want a really good friend who you really get each other. If her husband is abusive and she can’t see it. You’re not going to be a good friend to her either because it’s going to be driving you crazy.

Anne: And that’s why professional services are so important. Because friendships really should be an equal thing, not service projects. Our services aren’t service projects. Because if we did them for free, we’d have to get other jobs. And we would not be able to help women, but they’re our job. So getting professional services is totally different than looking for a friend who’s on your level.

She’s almost doing you a favor in some ways because you would have been really annoyed all the time. You know, wait, she’s not seeing it. If she’s telling you clearly abusive things and you’re like, uh, you know it’s not going to be fun for you either.

Felicia: And then I’m just gonna build another fake community of a bunch of friends. That I don’t want to tell the truth to, so that’s not good. We don’t want a big group of women deciding that their all codependent. Yeah, I can see that being honest with people, and hopefully friendships will follow.

Anne: I think that you will. It’s just a hard time. Have faith and be yourself and stay true to who you are. And things will work out eventually. I’m so sorry that you’re going through that right now. That is so hard. You’re amazing.

Felicia: Thank you so much for being beautiful.

Anne: You’re amazing, you’re incredible, you’re strong, things are complex.

Anne: A lot of people don’t like me because I say their husband is abusive. Not because I know him personally, not because I’m trying to hurt their marriage. But because objectively the behaviors she is describing are checking the boxes. That any domestic abuse services would say, yes, this is abuse.

That’s it. We’re not making abuse out of nothing. We don’t even know the people. We’re just saying, Okay, this is abuse. Also, we’re not giving any excuses for it.

Maybe he does have a brain lesion. Maybe he does have PTSD from when he served in Iraq. But that doesn’t mean it’s not abuse to you.

It doesn’t mean that it’s okay that you’re being abused. So, the reasons don’t matter why you’re being abused. The thing that matters is you’re being harmed. And it’s not your fault, you don’t deserve to be harmed. You don’t deserve to be harmed because someone has labeled you codependent.

Felicia: You’re right, and I’m not gonna feel sorry for spreading that message. I want women to not be harmed in their relationships. And I shouldn’t feel bad about not wanting that. I don’t want that for myself either, which I forget about myself. But yeah, I don’t want myself to be harmed.

Anne: But it is a lonely place sometimes, it’s just such a hard road and you don’t have to do it alone. We’re here for you, Felicia, and we’re here for all women going through this.

Anne: All I want to do is educate women about abuse so that they would know what they were facing. So they would have information. They could make the decisions. That they aren’t going to be blamed for being codependent.

They want to make them and get to safety and we can support them in doing that. And then once they feel stable and safe and that they have friends in their area. Then we’re like, We’re so glad we were here for you when you needed us. And we wish you the best of luck.

We’re here again if you need us again. Unlike 12 step or even religion that’s like you can’t leave. You know, you have to stay in 12 step or you’ll do it. We’re like, there’s nothing wrong with you you’re not codependent. You’re amazing. We’re just here to support you through a very difficult time.

And then when you’re stable and you feel good and you feel like, Oh, I’ve got friends we’re like, yay. We love you. You’re going to do great. You’re brave, strong and incredible.

Anne: Well, thank you so much, Felicia, for sharing your story. I really appreciate it.

Felicia: Thank you so much. I can do this.

Anne: You can, thanks for helping me get the word out that you are not codependent. You’re doing great. Talk to you soon.

Felicia: Bye

If you’re realizing, “My husband won’t stop lying.” You’re not alone. Angel shares her heartbreaking experience, giving her second husband every opportunity to change. Lying is part of emotional abuse. To find out if you are emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

If your husband won’t stop lying, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Anne: Today we have Angel , a survivor of two marriages that ended due to addiction. She has six awesome kids. Welcome.

Angel: Thanks for having me.

Anne: We’re going to talk to you a little bit about your personal story. You went through two marriages with addicted husbands. Let’s focus on the second marriage and what happened there. Can you talk to me about what your life was like before that D-Day with your second spouse?

Angel: I was divorced from my first husband, who was a pornography addict. And I met this guy who was everything I never imagined existed. He was soft. He was sweet. But not in a weird way. He was just this super awesome, amazing guy. I was not actually a Christian at the time, neither was he. We dated for a couple of years and bought a house together, and we went to church, and we both got saved in that church. And when we got saved, we got convicted for living together.

So we got married. I had already had six children from my first marriage. My children were rather young. It was a pretty normal life. I had the kind of relationship that my friends were jealous of, because my husband was always home. He would do chores. He didn’t leave his underwear on the floor. I had all kinds of health problems, but even despite all that, life was just good. Then after a couple of major surgeries and a foreclosure, we moved and everything changed.

He was very different, and I couldn’t figure out why. Of course, I thought it was me or my kids, because it couldn’t possibly be him. I didn’t know then that my husband was lying.

Angel: I had been a stay at home mom, which I loved, but I opened a photography studio, so we were a pretty normal couple. didn’t go to church, which was unfortunate. I kept trying to get him to try new churches. But he was very resistant, and as time progressed, he got more and more distant. I started seeing more anger and lying, our intimate life almost disappeared.

And then one day, I was on his computer. I had all his passwords, and he had all mine, we had nothing to hide. So I looked at his computer history, not sure why I was looking at his computer history. Because he swore he never watched online explicit material, and I believed him.

I saw a bunch of meetup groups in his history. And all the profiles he looked at were female. And I thought that’s really weird, but I brushed it off, thinking he was looking for a tech meetup group because he’s a tech guy.

As I kept looking and seeing all these female profiles, it was like a light bulb went off. I out loud said, “My husband’s having an affair,” but I couldn’t see anything. So I ended up combing through his computer trying to find something, and I couldn’t find anything. So I went upstairs and got his phone, and started looking through the phone. I didn’t see anything until I found the Google Voice app.

And when I found the Google Voice app, I read two years worth of texts from his affair partner. So that was my first D-Day. And found out my husband had been lying.

Angel: Yeah, like, as I’m telling it, I can literally feel still reading the texts from her. And at first I thought it was just virtual. But it wasn’t just virtual. By the end of the texting, I realized they had actually met in person.

Anne: For our listeners, maybe some of you are not familiar with the term D-Day. I’ve used it frequently on the podcast, and realized I’ve never defined it. In this context, D-Day means discovery day. The day you discovered your husband’s addiction, husband’s secret life, that your husband is lying to you. Sometimes it happens when you check your husband’s phone. In my case, my worst D-Day was when my husband was arrested for domestic violence.

And I realized, wait a minute, the behaviors I’ve been experiencing for seven years have been emotional abuse and physical intimidation. So, that day when everything came to a halt, that is what we call D-Day. We would love to hear about your D-Day, what you experienced. You can comment anonymously below about what happened to you. We would love to hear your experience about when you found out you were a victim of betrayal trauma in your relationship.

Angel: If I can actually piggyback on the telling your story part, I think that is probably one of the most healing things you can do is tell your story. The more you tell your story, the more healing you get, at least that’s what I’ve experienced. Telling your story is super, super hard, but there is so much healing in telling that story. So please share your stories.

Angel: I confronted him. Of course, my husband kept lying and minimizing. And then I relapsed myself. I am a recovering drug addict. One of my friends had flown me down to Florida to shoot their wedding, and they had special favors of tequila with their names, and it was super cute. https://www.btr.org/is-there-hope-after-infidelity/

I kept them in my cabinet, but that day I grabbed the tequila, and my own relapse started and didn’t stop for a while. I wanted to kick him out, but I was too busy yelling at him. So I didn’t kick him out. Then I tried to get to the why’s. And of course, it was all me. It was everything I was doing wrong.

I went into this, I have to become a perfect wife because I drove my husband to an affair. That lasted a little while on a longer than it should have. Then the relapse got worse for me and he was still doing things that I didn’t even know existed yet.

And so I led the “recovery” by handing him books, finding him therapists, and trying to teach him how to help me. And the whole time, everything’s getting worse for us. There’s more fights. He’s starting to get borderline violent. He never actually hit me, but he would trap me in rooms when I wanted to leave to escape a discussion. Or he would try to force his way into rooms. If I didn’t want to have a discussion right then and there, the behaviors just really escalated.

Anne: Of course you thought you were doing the right thing by handing him books and finding your abusive husband a therapist.

Angel: About 15 months of this chaos, and unfortunately, I did my own acting out. I don’t know, I thought it was revenge. I thought that would make me feel better. All it did was make me feel worse. And to this day, it still breaks my heart that I did that. So 15 months later, nothing was better. Everything was worse. I clearly had PTSD at this point. The symptoms were there. I was a twitchy mess. That’s how I described myself.

So I kicked him out. Two days later, after I kicked him out, the floodgates opened and I found out about all the online explicit material. The men, the prostitutes, and everything else that went along with the addiction. So for 15 months, I thought it was just an affair, and then everything else came out. Because I have so much history with recovery from addiction, I know that change is possible. Even though I had found out my husband was still lying.

I let him come home, because now I had an answer. This is why we haven’t been able to heal. It was because of an addiction. Well, now we can fix the addiction. So I let him come home.

Anne: You’re having ups and downs with your own recovery during this time. And then you get the bombshell of finding out that he he’s been with other women, men, visiting prostitutes, and were you wondering if there is hope after infidelity?

Angel: I was a weird mix of terrified, shocked, but hopeful. Again, I believe in the power of recovery. I know that an addict can change, because I changed. I know that because I know a ton of addicts that have changed.

Angel: And actually the addicts that I know that changed. They’re some of the most authentic people you’ll ever meet. I did have that hope, but I was terrified.

Anne: I feel the same way, by the way. Even with what I’ve been through, my ex husband’s not in recovery. Well, lately I’ve been praying every day that Christ will revive him. Like, literally, like, bring him back from the dead.

Angel: Amen.

Anne: Because I watch him and want our family together so badly, even though he’s my ex husband now. Even though I hold a no contact boundary because of his lack of emotional health, I still want our family together. So as you’re hoping for him to change, what are you doing?

Angel: I did my research, but I did the wrong research. I ended up in the female co-addict, codependent books. And I didn’t find the right path to healing for a long time. I was slowly starting to recover me. Because I had lost me at this point. I was literally unrecognizable within a few months of him moving back home after the second large disclosure.

That’s when the PTSD got insanely bad. Him coming home, nothing changed. I mean, all the behaviors that come along with addiction were there. My husband wouldn’t stop lying to me. He was angry. He blamed me for stuff. We were having circular conversations that made me feel insane.

I did not know my reality was what he said, just true. Am I actually crazy? I wrestled with that one for a long time. And then I got some form of, I guess it’s a agoraphobia.

Angel: I was so triggered whenever I left my bedroom. That I basically lived in my room for like a year. I remember there was a period for a couple of weeks where just going to the bathroom was traumatic, which sounds exaggerated. It was really, like I would put my hoodie on and put my hood over my head, for some reason that made me feel safer.

And I would literally run to the bathroom. Like there was this monster in the house that was going to get me. And then ran back, and my bedroom was like my cocoon. It was the only place I felt safe. And I missed a lot of my life for almost a year in that place. And the whole time he’s acting out and of course saying he’s not, he’s claiming his sobriety from the rooftops, and she’s actually just crazy, he just kept lying.

Anne: Was he sleeping in the bedroom with you at the time, or was he sleeping somewhere else in the house?

Angel: After he moved home, he was in the bedroom for a very short time, then he was on the couch.

Anne: Okay, so he’s not in the bedroom with you, and so thus you feel like you at least have a little bit of a safe space, kind of.

Angel: Yes.

Anne: But not really, since you’re still terrified.

Angel: Yeah, that was just my cocoon. We were in this chaotic cycle and the behaviors progressed. I said, I need to stop this conversation. And he grabbed my arms and was trying to force me to talk to him.

Angel: And he did it so hard that they bruised. And I didn’t even realize that was physical abuse. That thought never crossed my mind. He was starting to get mean with the kids. Everything was just escalating, and my children were suffering. Because you know, mom’s locked in her bedroom and dad’s gone crazy. This part’s just a little, a little hard, because I have kids I love and I was so depressed that they didn’t even matter.

And as a mom, that’s really, really hard to admit, but that’s how low things had gotten for me. And I should have explained. I have literally no family, none. He had isolated me from my church and from my friends. So I literally was alone. And so I’m sitting in my car with this bottle. And I hadn’t been to church in a couple of years. All of a sudden I hear this, not, well, not literally hearing, but “call Robin,” her name is Robin, a woman from my old church.

And Robin and I were never close. I mean, I know her, I liked her, but it’s not like we were good friends. I just kept feeling this call Robin, call Robin, call Robin. And I’m like, I don’t want to call Robin. I’m done. I’m done with life. I can’t do this anymore. I summoned up the nerve to call Robin, and I went to her house, and vomited my entire story onto Robin.

That’s the first time I’d ever told my entire story, and she had no advice. She just listened.

Angel: By the end of it, I got angry. All of a sudden, I asked her for a Sharpie. She’s looking at me like I have three heads, but she gets me a Sharpie. On my wrists, I wrote live free one on each wrist that day. I decided I was done. I was not going to end my life because he couldn’t fix his. And that’s when recovery started for me.

Anne: Wow, you have a powerful story, and I appreciate your candor and sharing this with us today. And I’m sorry for all your pain. I can hear it in your voice, and so many of our listeners have felt similar feelings to what you felt. So when you decided to recover yourself, what were your first steps?

Angel: The first thing I did was go back to church. I knew that I was so far in a pit, I was not going to get out on my own. So I started reading my Bible all the time, and stopped listening to secular music. And I just surrounded myself with the word of God, and I actually sought out people for the first time. Then I started telling my story to anybody who would listen, because I needed help.

I was so desperate that I didn’t care if you were a rock. I was going to tell you my story. Because during all this, I found that five of my six children had struggled with online explicit material. It was just bad. I started going back to church, and I found a couple of different websites that had me doing exercises on like visualizing what I want my life to be. What my values are.

Angel: I learned the word boundary, I had never heard of it. Then I started reading books. Piece by piece, I started getting better. I actually kicked him out. And I filed for divorce, which wasn’t what I wanted, but I was literally dying. So I had no other options. And we were a month away from divorce when I heard about a program called Teen Challenge.

It’s actually designed for drug addicts. It’s like a rehab year-long live-in program. And I told my husband at the time, I’ll stop the divorce and see who you are. If you commit to go to teen challenge. I didn’t think he’d say yes, but he did.

He quit his job and lived in a program for a year. He got better for a couple months. And relapsed in Teen Challenge, or so he told me. Now he says he didn’t actually relapse of course my husband is lying. He’s changed the story so many times I don’t actually know the truth. But either way, he wasn’t getting better. So he graduated Teen Challenge.

I was still afraid of a relapse. There were still a lot of red flags for me. So he moved in with our pastor for a while, so I could see how he could handle life on the outside. My landlord in the house we lived in gave us 30 days notice because he was selling the house. So I had to find a new rental that would accept my brood of children and my animals while I’m working full time and still dealing with trauma.

And so I actually let him move home to help me.

Angel: It spiraled quickly over the summer, and he went back to those old bad behaviors, physically threatening me, the anger, the continued lying to me. And then I caught him with online explicit material and I kicked him out.

Anne: I can’t imagine what you’re feeling. Well, I can actually, sorry, part of me can. So you send him away for a year. You have faith in God, and he’s been through this program. He moves back home, and it all totally falls apart again. I imagine you were completely devastated at this point.

Angel: I started going back into, I call it, PTSD land, where I kind of lived with all the PTSD symptoms. What made me decide to kick him out was the agoraphobia came back again. And at this point, I had regained my life. I was an active mom, and I was who I was. I was fun, light, and doing things outside in the world. And I could handle football games for my son. I was me again.

And over that summer, all the old stuff started coming back in me, and I said, no, I’m not, I’m not going there again. And I kicked him out.

Anne: Wow, how are you feeling about God at this point?

Angel: Oh, I’m angry.

Anne: I would be too. I’m thinking God’s told you to send him to this year long thing, you’ve been doing all this alone. He comes back, and basically he is not changed at all. Why? Why didn’t you just have me end it a year ago? Right, we’ve all been through that thought process.

Angel: I just went through a year of basically hell, while he’s in rehab. And he’s not even out two months and he relapsed. What am I missing here?

Anne: Right.

Angel: Something’s not adding up. Yeah, I was angry. I felt betrayed by God. I love worship music, but all my worship music reminded me of my husband, so I stopped listening to that.

There’s this one song that talks about I’m going to take back what the enemy has stolen. For the longest time, that song resonated, we were going to take back our marriage. I decided to flip that song around, and it wasn’t about my marriage anymore. It was about what the enemy stole from me. And one of the things he stole from me was my faith in God. He got my marriage, but he doesn’t get to have my faith. He doesn’t get to take the pieces of me.

And honestly, I kind of yelled at God a lot. I yelled at God some more, and then I yelled at him some more. And every time I did it. I could feel him saying, I understand, but I got this. I kicked him out and he moved 900 miles away. We got divorced. The divorce is final. And I actually offered reconciliation. Obviously, it would require repentance and recovery, that has not happened.

And he has basically abandoned the kids. He has absolutely no contact with them whatsoever. Right now, that’s the hardest part watching my teenage girls go through that abandonment.

Anne: Yeah, my ex, he moved from a city he was living in temporarily back to the city where we live. He told his friends, I’m so excited to move back. I can spend more time with my kids. And then from the day he moved back, he hasn’t seen the kids for four weeks now.

When you’re talking about the definition of insanity. And where you were in that process of observing your husband’s behaviors, being in that chaos. And not being able to figure out exactly what was happening.

Angel: When you see these behaviors that are insane. That’s what they look like, and they make absolutely no sense. When he won’t stop lying to me, and you have a set of beliefs, morals, and standards. And your actions don’t match that, it creates its own chaos. That’s where you tend to see all the other crazy making behaviors that drive us absolutely insane. Lying, that’s probably one of the most rage igniting things.

Anne: Lying it’s like you’ve got Jekyll and Hyde .

Angel: Well, Jekyll and Hyde, like the wife finds something on the history of the computer, he has to figure out a way to make the two make sense. Lying is a good way to do it. Lying can alter our reality and perception of what’s going on. They’ll say things like, well, it’s not a real person, so it’s not that bad. It’s not even cheating.

I’m a man, I can’t help it. I have a high drive, and besides, all men look at it, right? I mean, it’s a guy thing. It’s just what they do. I only do it a few times a month. It’s not a problem.

Anne: Women in the industry are not treated well. Many of them are on drugs. Many of them have been exploited. They are miserable doing their job, and the time they spend in the industry is very, very short. Most of them don’t spend a lot of time doing it, because it’s so difficult for them. I’ve talked to someone on the other end. He produced itfor a while, and then stopped.

And he said, I always knew I was ruining the lives of the women I filmed. But I never thought about the people watching it and how their lives were also being ruined. I think it’s very difficult for them to realize that they’re hurting their wife, themselves, and also hurting the woman being exploited. They’re also hurting the people in it.

And so it’s important to teach people that it creates a demand for exploitation. And that demand must stop. As long as people are viewing it, there will also be exploitation and slavery. All the lying is so intense.

Angel: My husband won’t stop lying to me. He twists words to convince me that these lies make sense. Like, I deserve to watch that, because my wife won’t have it with me, even though that doesn’t make any sense. That one is so damaging to women, because one of the big lies is the way the wife looks.

Or they will blame the weight the wife has gained, or the activities that the wife is willing to do. If she did such and such act, I wouldn’t have to watch it. Or, if she took care of herself and lost some weight, I wouldn’t have to watch it.

Angel: Or, if she wasn’t such a mean, demanding person, then I wouldn’t need all this stress relief. Or, I’ve had a really bad day at work, all my customers are jerks, and I’ve been treated like crap by my boss, and I deserve to watch it.

Anne: In my case, I was too much, asked too many questions, was too consistent, demanding and controlling. Because I was a woman of my word, I had integrity. I was trying to figure out what was going on, and I was not going to stop until I had the answers.

Although at the end, he told me that I was not attractive. But before that, it was that I was too much, and then it became that I wasn’t enough. And it was very hurtful to me. I had the same issue, my husband kept lying to me. Those lies still ring in my ears. He also lied about small things too.

Angel: Right, mine was good at projecting. He started isolating himself from the family. We would have things that we were going to do, like carve pumpkins. I’d say, come on, let’s go carve pumpkins. And he would say he was working in his office, and he wasn’t. Or, hey, let’s go to the park. Pretty much anything with the family, he kept lying to me.

Well, he said he cheated because I didn’t want him involved in my life. Like he literally would flip everything around, and then he would say things like, I didn’t want it enough. And the reality was that I was starved and turned down all the time.

Anne: Mine didn’t ever initiate in the first place, and then I stopped initiating. And he didn’t ever do it, and I’m sure he tells people she wouldn’t have it with me. So that was a lie he told about me. And I’m like, well, you only initiated twice during that six months where I didn’t initiate. And both of those times were immediately after I had been severely emotionally abused.

I wasn’t safe. And then you didn’t ever try when I did feel safe. So yeah, that makes sense. But he doesn’t tell people, because I didn’t initiate it for six months. That gaslighting is intense and traumatizing. Gaslighting is part of emotional abuse.

Angel: Yeah, and the gaslighting made me feel crazy, because I didn’t know my reality. Gaslighting is lying. My husband wouldn’t stop lying to me. And that’s such a hard thing to describe, not knowing my reality. But when everything is twisted and all I had was him and me. I didn’t have anybody to tell me, okay, no, that’s not right. Or that’s not making sense. I don’t know what’s up or down, and it’s all because of the gaslighting.

He would say something, and then five minutes later I would repeat it back to him, and he would say, I never said that. And I’m like, yes, you did, but by the end of the conversation, I’m going, well, did I?

Angel: Really didn’t know.

Anne: Yeah, or they say, I know I said that, but that’s not what I meant. And you’re like, no, this is what you meant. This is exactly what you said, but now you’re denying it. It’s strange, yeah.

Anne: The reason we talk about abuse is to educate women about the behaviors they can expect. So that they know they’re not crazy, so they can start to observe their husband’s behavior to see if their husband is emotionally safe. Learn about this in The Living Free Workshop. My number one goal with Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to teach women what these safe behaviors look like. So that they can start to establish safety for themselves. Because you cannot heal from the trauma if trauma is continually happening to you.

Angel: No matter what’s going on with him, there is hope for you. You don’t have to stay stuck. Your life can change. Your life can get better.

Anne: You are worth it.

Angel: Amen.

Anne: You are worth it. God loves you, and he wants you to be safe. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate the time you’ve taken to talk with us.

Angel: Thank you for having me.

If you’re thinking, “My husband is paranoid and angry,” this interview will help you sort out what’s really going on. It’s likely that you’re experiencing emotional abuse. To find out, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Louise. She’s here to share her story. So many women share a similar story. They talk about how their husbands are paranoid and angry.

One of the reasons women think their husband is paranoid is because they don’t realize he’s lying. So when he says things like, you’re trying to control me, you don’t respect me, nobody respects me. Women take it at face value, they don’t realize he is lying. And so he sounds paranoid. And maybe he is, or maybe it’s just manipulation.

Louise, Welcome. let’s start with your story.

Louise: Thank you, we married at 19, and we knew each other all our life. I noticed he was mean to his sister, and I talked him out of that. So I thought he’d learned his lesson. I mean, the stories are all the same, but talking at me in the evenings in bed. And sometimes in the day for hours on end. Always disagreeing until I cried, and it took me years to figure that out.

We were raised in that patriarchy setting. Where women just didn’t have a say, right? In the Mennonite church, and then we went into the Bill Gothard stuff. And I wanted to be the perfect wife and mother. And, and the way to do that was to be totally submissive and obedient. So then he was always saying, “But you’re not obeying me.” And when I did, he would, in front of the children, say, but I told you different.

Anne: Wow, fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. And so he would move the goalposts?

Louise: Basically, that crazy making, right?

Louise: We were married in 1972, and in those days, there was no information, there was no internet. We had seven biological children and three from an orphanage in Haiti. That was a difficult time. I went to the library one day, and there a little book caught my attention, called Men Who Hate Women. That was the beginning of my education.

Anne: Before you found the book, what did you think was going on? Can you talk about your feelings at that time?

Louise: I felt like I was never good enough. Why is he always paranoid and angry? And I thought if I was good enough, maybe something would work out. Or if we could get counseling, you know, the old story.

Anne: You didn’t just think that, by the way. He was actually telling you that. He said to you, the problem is you. If you would cook better, if you would do this better, if you would serve me more, then it would solve our problems. Which kept you in this hamster wheel. Your husband manipulated you to think that. He wanted you to think that.

Louise: And when he sensed that I thought that, then of course he used that, right? And pastors were no help, they said the same thing. And the teaching we had from Bill Gothard was that, as long as everybody was obedient to whoever was above them. That umbrella scheme, then everything would work out, right? A person is attracted to the promises that if you do this, everything will come out right.

Anne: Exactly. This is one of the signs of spiritual abuse.

Louise: I opened up this book in the library, and found a list. If your husband does six of these 20 things, then he is abusing you. And I got to number 11 or 12, and I slammed it shut. Because you don’t want to hear that, then what do you do? That’s the end of your life. And I snuck it home and read it, but there were no answers in it either. They didn’t have any answers, just explanations.

And yeah, you’re supposed to be strong. But when you’re raised to think you’re not strong, and that you don’t have a say, then you can’t be strong. And then the next thing was my sister gave me the Boundaries Teachings. And that was a shock, that I was actually allowed to say no to anybody in this world. So I listened to that over and over. And very slowly, started to do that.

And finally, one day, I prayed, and I read 1 Peter 3 and 4, and I read it several times. I thought, Okay, God, what do you want me to learn from this? And a light went on. This is not a formula, but this is what I feel I was told. And so I went to him, and I said, I think God told me you can have all the sex you want. And he goes, oh, and I said, but you have to choose.

There are two types of relationship. There’s a master slave, and there’s Christ’s church, and you have to choose which one. If it’s a master slave, you command me to do, and I’ll just let you.

Louise: And if it’s Christ’s church, you have to win me back, because you have lost my affection. Both options require humbling yourself, right? That’s not gonna happen. And first he yelled at me and said, “You’re my wife, you’re supposed to obey me. I command you to feel affection for me right now.”

We slept in the same bed for three more years and never had it again. Because he couldn’t admit he wanted a slave, and he couldn’t humble himself to be Christ like. On the other hand, this gave him a lot of fuel with counselors. She hasn’t let me touch her in three years, right?

I know he masturbated about four times a day. He did admit it , and then I figured out why I was finding him sleeping in the hay all the time, because he tired himself out with it.

Anne: Wow.

Louise: If he had magazines, I have no idea, because I didn’t think of it. I mean, we were married 25 years. And I only found some of this out right at the end. It didn’t cross my Mennonite mind, you know. So that was all that was on his mind. If I ever smiled at him, he would come rushing over and say, “You want it? You smiled at me.” That’s all that was on his mind. He was in Fantasyland. And if I tried to talk to him, I interrupted the fantasy, and he would be angry.

He was paranoid and angry all the time. When I blew up once in a while, he accused me of being too angry and having to protect the children from me.

Louise: He would talk at me for hours and hours, just in circles, the crazy making thing. And I cried out to God, I said, God, what should I do? I actually heard the words shut up, in a nice way. And I said, what? It was like this never goes anywhere. Stop engaging in these conversations. So I did. And then he would tell counselors, she won’t talk to me, and if only she would communicate with me, we would be fine.

And they would agree with him. Then I started writing things down, and when he caught me, he says, “You shouldn’t keep a record of wrongs, that was evil.” He was so paranoid. And we flew all the way to Minneapolis to this well known, good counselor. And I showed him my notes, he read them that evening, and the next day he said, “If this is true, we have a big problem.”

Then he sent me out, he took my husband in, an hour later he brought me in, and he says, Your husband reassured me that you made all this up.

Anne: What?

Louise: Yeah, it was a Christian counselor. He and his buddy had written some books. I forget what they were called, and I don’t remember his name either.

Anne: Wow, wow.

Louise: Another time, my sister took me to her counselor in Vancouver. I told him one or two sentences of what was going on. And then he perfectly got it, and he said there’s only one thing you can do, and that’s an intervention. Get his friends together to intervene, and tell him he’s got to stop this behavior. Or else they’re going to help you get away.

Louise: So I called my friends and they agreed to do that. And then they picked me up from my sister. And when I got to their place, they had called him to come get me, because I was all mixed up in the head.

Anne: Oh, so they turned on you.

Louise: So finally toward the end, we went to Elijah House in Washington. It was Christian counseling, they do prayer counseling. Throughout the counseling, they asked God, what’s going on here? And they figured it out, they said it was abuse. But he said it didn’t work. He said to me, don’t you know you’re always wrong?

And when I told him I wasn’t going to talk all night. I said, if you can make me cry in five minutes, then you’ll suddenly see my point. And if it takes five hours, and he says, “Oh don’t you know that if I can make you sick or cry that makes a man out of me?

Anne: Wow.

Louise: It was shortly after that when I checked myself into the psych ward, because I just felt like I couldn’t take it anymore. And there was a counselor there, a psychologist, who talked to both of us and said, See, you just have to communicate with him. But the doctor in charge came to me on the third day and said, “Listen, the nurses tell me you don’t belong here.”

Louise: What is really going on? And so I told him. A couple of days later, he said, do you want to go home? And I said, my kids need me. But I was happy there. And he said, I’m a Christian, I don’t believe in divorce. But I’m not going to let you out of here until I know you’ve made arrangements not to live with him anymore. And I fell apart because I thought that would be committing the worst sin in the book, even just separating.

But I called my friend and she called the pastor and the pastor told him, Oh, just play along with it. Live in your van for a few days and once she gets home, she’ll let you back.

Anne: Oh my word, this is abuse on top of abuse on top of abuse on top of abuse.

Louise: Yeah, and my dad said, Oh, just give her a pill, but I never let him come back.

Anne: You are so brave and so strong. You were resisting his abuse the whole time, because you did exactly what you were supposed to do. You were going for help, and no one, except for that last guy, was helping you, you are so brave.

Louise: Actually, I wasn’t going to divorce him. His friend flew in and told him to get rid of me real quick, and so he divorced me. I think he thought I was making it all up. He’s married to my cousin, and we’ve always been friends. I’ve known him all my life, so I don’t know what the deal was, but I was glad.

Anne: That his friend convinced him to let you go, really? Your resistance had become quite troublesome for him. That’s actually what happened to me. My ex divorced me because my resistance was so untenable to him.

Louise: I think I made him look bad, so he had to make me look bad. Then I was single for eight years, and it was great. My health got better. I just loved raising the kids myself. But he basically ran me out of town. He played games with the finances. Totally ruined my reputation with my friends and the church and everything. In little subtle ways where, well, you know how she gets and stuff like that.

And even my oldest daughter she came home one day. And she said, Mom, if you knew what people were saying about you in this town, you wouldn’t want to live here anymore. She didn’t actually share what she heard, but that’s what happened. And so I thought, you know, maybe marrying again would be a good idea. This must be a rare dynamic. Surely there aren’t many guys like that around. But I met my current husband.

It was a visa thing, you had to move here a week before you get married type thing.

Anne: So you meet him online, he’s got a farm, and you move to the States with him. Did you have a long distance relationship with him?

Louise: Yeah, but it wasn’t that far, like five hours, we could see each other fairly often. And looking back, sure, you can see the red flags. Well, I have to confess to you that I found some old exploitative tapes, but I destroyed them.

Louise: So that sounds pretty good. right? On the wedding day, I had a friend I hadn’t known terribly long. And he went off driving with her all afternoon. Then he came home and took her into our bedroom for an hour with the door closed. I was shocked. I had my friends and family, they were all there in the house, and I still don’t know what they were thinking. Because he ignored them all, all day, and then a couple years later, I signed us up for a marriage retreat.

I found out three years later, he had arranged for his girlfriend to be there, and her husband. I know he had another email account. So he was keeping in contact with a couple of girlfriends, and he was definitely into pornography. He admitted it to the counselor we went to. It was pretty much the same thing all over again. Several years ago, I said, if we want to make this work, I want you to sign up with an abuse counselor.

And, oh, he was like, no, that’s not going to work because blah, blah, blah, blah. And finally, he did sign up and she interviewed him, and then she talked to me and she said, you know, you’re wasting your money. Take that money and get help for yourself. The biggest thing that has helped me, about five or six years ago, one day I looked in the mirror and I said, God, what do you think of me? How do you feel about me? And in the next three days, everything changed.

Louise: I know what God thinks now. And so the next time he insulted my body, I just laughed. And I said something like, You’re not such a young punk yourself anymore. Something like that. Sometimes it still hurts. Sometimes it still makes me mad. But when you know to expect it, and you know it’s not your problem. That makes a huge difference, and I’ve also learned to do a lot of boundary setting. I know he thinks that means I’m controlling him, but I’m not.

It used to be like, is it okay if I go to town? A lot of isolation, he didn’t want me to go to the town six miles away because it was a waste of gas. And I just say this is what I’m going to do today. I don’t know, there’s always answers and always help. The Bible says, Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice, and he will answer us. And sometimes he gives dreams, and sometimes a scripture, sometimes a friend. It’s important to have support when your husband is paranoid and angry.

Anne: One of the symptoms of spiritual abuse is not feeling connected to God. And getting the right support like the support available through Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. How is it different?

Louise: Oh, totally. Like night and day, the whole Christian world said you can’t get divorced. And it’s the woman’s fault, everything. You know, if you would treat him better or whatever, this wouldn’t be happening. And you try until you make yourself sick, right? And, you know, we can be thankful for all the support we have, but you still have to reach out. Because my husband is paranois and angry.

Anne: Well, do you know why we have that support now? It’s because of women like you, I’m standing on your shoulders.

Anne: Had you not resisted in all the ways you resisted, I would not be here. And so we all owe a great debt to women who came before us, who led the way for us.

Louise: Our stories hopefully can help someone else. Who is dealing with an angry and paranoid husband.

Anne: I’m so grateful for women who pressed on without any support. Your stories are both inspiring, and then also so horrific. It sounds like torture, and I’m so sorry you went through that. It’s awful.

Louise: And the hard part is when people don’t believe you, you know?

Anne: Mm hmm, yeah, can you believe that people are still not believing women?

Louise: Yeah, no, it’s amazing.

Anne: Yeah, yeah, it is. You are so brave and incredible. And as you continue to grow and heal. I’m so grateful to have you as part of our community. Thank you so much for all your support.

Anne: How long have you been listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast?

Louise: For years, almost from the beginning, I think.

Anne: Thank you so much for your support. Do you remember how you found the podcast?

Louise: I think on Facebook. And I sure appreciate what you all do.

Anne: We appreciate you. Thank you for all your support over the years. If it weren’t for women like you, we wouldn’t be doing this. So thank you.

Louise: Yeah. Thanks so much for putting it out there. I mean, it takes something to just put our stories out there.

Anne: It does. It’s a lot of work. It’s so worth it. I’m so honored to hear women’s stories, because it’s a very vulnerable thing to share your story. Thank you so much, Louise, for sharing today. It will make a big difference to someone who hears it. Thank you so much.

Louise: Thank you.

In the face of emotional and psychological abuse, women often carry the burden of being the peacemaker. But what does Jesus say about abuse?

Matthew 5:25 is often quoted to manipulate women. But here’s what Jesus is really saying.

To see if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Let’s take Matthew 5:25 – What does Jesus say about abuse? Jesus says, “Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.”

If your husband is emotionally and psychologically abusive, rather than engage with the abuser, you can quickly and passively agree (if it’s safe to do so). Anne shares an example on the podcast:

“You can be a peacemaker and you can be safe with the strategy of agreement. Here are some examples. Let’s say your husband says something like, ‘Well, you don’t respect me and you never listen to me.’

Rather than diving into an argument or pulling out all the times where you did listen to him and how you do respect him, because you always ask his opinion before you spend more than $50 and all the reasons why you are a good person. You can say, ‘oh, that’s interesting; I haven’t thought of that.‘”

Best practice is to appear disinterested and apathetic. The abuser wants to create chaos. We want you to create distance between yourself and the abuse so that you can create safety for yourself. Here are some phrases (along with a disinterested, apathetic impression) to use when you’re “agreeing quickly” with the abuser:

Your apathetic, disinterested “agreement” is a great way to quash his attempts at arguing with you.

The word salad, gaslighting, intimidation, and other abusive tactics that come up when abusers “argue” with victims can be extremely damaging. A quick, apathetic agreement is a great way to “douse the fire” and create an opportunity for you to get a safe distance from the abuser.

“I’m not mad or upset; there’s no fight. They love a fight, and they also love it when you do what they want. So they’re trying to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do. But if you’re not going to do that, then they will enjoy the chaos of an argument.”

Anne Blythe, founder of BTR.ORG

The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop has many more of these strategies. You don’t have to do this alone. Consider attending a BTR.ORG Group Session today.

Anne: It’s just me today. Even though this podcast is interfaith and interparadigm, many of you who listen are Christian. If you are not Christian, this episode will still help you, and these principles will apply. Yes, it is what does Jesus say about abuse, but it’s also one of the strategies from the Living Free Workshop, and I’m going to go into detail about it. In the Living Free Workshop, it is all secular. It’s just the strategies themselves, without any background information about how I discovered it.

So what does Jesus say about abuse? What does the Bible say about divorce?We’re going to look at some scriptures that abusers have used to spiritually abuse victims, so that they can exploit them. The first one is Matthew 5:25. It’s part of the Sermon on the Mount. And Jesus says, “Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou are in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee unto the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.”

In the scripture, he’s talking about someone who wants to do you harm. They want to imprison you. When it comes to abusers, they want to oppress you, and they’re going to say things to manipulate you. So Jesus says we should agree quickly with our adversary, and this is the best way to deal with a dangerous person in a strategic way. So here’s an example of agreeing quickly with an adversary, and how it can protect you.

Anne: I was at a singles event and there was a man who wanted me to talk to him. I was not into it because he was like, 30 years older than me, and no.

And as I was like, brushing him off, he said, “You really push men away. Men aren’t going to like that.” And I remembered what Jesus said about agreeing quickly with my adversary. So I said, “Yeah. cool.” Basically, like, yeah, I do push men away, great. Instead of doing what he wanted me to do, which was stop and say, oh, of course I don’t want to push men away, I will talk to you because I’m polite. I was like, yeah, I push men away, mission accomplished.

Anne: When it’s a husband, he’s going to say things like, you don’t care. You don’t love me, you won’t meet my needs, you don’t respect me. You don’t respect me is the most common abuser statement there is. Instead of trying to prove that you do respect him, or explain to him why you don’t respect him. Think about this strategy that Christ taught us. Jesus says about abusers to Agree quickly with an adversary.

You could say, oh yeah, maybe I don’t. And then you always need to follow up with an exit strategy. That’s the quickly part. You agree immediately, and then exit. So with the man at the singles event, I said, “Oh yeah, I do push men away, cool.” And I walked off. With your husband, the quickly part would be like, I have to fold the laundry. We can talk about it later. And the strategic thing. Don’t ever talk about it later. Don’t bring it up.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” Now, it’s impossible to have peace when someone is trying to oppress you and they are legit trying to distress you. That is their goal. They’re going to cause problems no matter what. So Jesus says, one strategic way to protect ourselves is to agree with them. Do it with an apathetic, disinterested stance toward them.

Abusers want one of two things. They either want to exploit us, so they want us to do what they want, to our detriment. And if they can’t get that, a juicy fight will do. They enjoy our distress.

Anne: So when we won’t do what they want, we also don’t engage in an argument or conversation about it. And give them the impression that they can’t get our attention. That’s one way to protect ourselves. With the man at the singles event, after I said what I said, I walked off in peace, happily.

So here are some examples with your husband. Let’s say your husband says something like, you don’t respect me and you never listen to me. Again, rather than proving to him how you do listen to him saying things like, what are you talking about? I always ask your opinion before I spend more than $50. What are you talking about? I double checked with you before I did this thing, instead of doing that. A Jesus approved strategic response might be something like, huh, I hadn’t thought about that.

Oh, I told Betsy that I’d go visit her. I’ve got to go to the neighbor’s. I’ll be back in about an hour. A distracted, I’m busy doing something else is the strategic way to separate yourself from that type of emotional and psychological abuse. Because remember he wants the chaos. He wants to drum it up.

So here’s another example of how to set boundaries with your husband. Let’s say he uses your own values to trap you into exploiting you. He might say, if you cared about our family, you would, and then state the thing he’s trying to manipulate you to do. Here is the agree with an adversary quickly version of a response. That’s something for me to think about. I’m going to go wash the car. I’ll be back when I’m done with my errands. Can I pick anything up for you at the store while I’m out?

Anne: No matter what, they are on fire, and you can’t do anything to put the fire out, unfortunately. But this is to protect yourself as much as possible. If you’re living with the abuser, this is like putting on a fireproof suit. Now, I found that not being able to just be myself felt very suffocating and exhausting, and I did not want to live with a fireproof suit on all the time. So I ended up escalating my boundaries. The Bible also says a lot about boundaries in marriage.

Some of you might feel that wearing this fireproof suit is your safest option. Whatever you choose is the right thing for you. But this strategy can be applied whether you’re married and still living in the home. Or separating or divorced with any type of unsafe person when they’re trying to get power over you. It’s a good strategy to use to protect yourself. Jesus says about abusers to agree quickly with our adversary, or to be a peacemaker for our own safety. It’s not to benefit him whatsoever.

You don’t have to actually agree with him to agree with an adversary. This, oh, I need to think about that, hmm, you have a point. Will give you enough space to determine what level of safety you actually have. Then you can evolve and try again, just like the Living Free Strategies teach.

Anne: Those who have enrolled in the Living Free Workshop will know exactly what I’m talking about, because this is one of the principles in there. Again, in the Living Free Workshop itself, I don’t teach this with scriptures. It’s in a completely secular context. There is like an appendix at the back, if you’re interested in my personal scripture study and where I came up with some of these strategies based on what Jesus said about abuse.

I wanted to hit on that strategy. I’d love to know what you think about it. You can scroll to the bottom, I’d love to hear your comments. Let me know what you think.