My guest today is Dr. Jason Hickel – professor at the Institute for Environmental Science & Technology (ICTA) at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, and author of The Divide and Less Is More. This is our second conversation on the podcast, and it comes at a moment of escalating geopolitical violence – in Iran, Lebanon, Cuba, and beyond.

In this episode, we get into how these conflicts are symptoms of capitalist imperialism: Western states asserting dominance over sovereign-seeking states to protect their own growth. We dive into ecosocialism as an alternative to capitalism, and what economic democracy actually looks like in practice. We cover China’s rise – how its economy actually works, why the West has turned against it, and what it means for the Global South – and we end with a discussion of how to build the mass movements capable of bringing a better future to life.

You can support the Better Future podcast by becoming a paid subscriber on Substack:

https://betterfuturemedia.substack.com/

Here are links to the resources mentioned in our conversation:

• Mondragon Corporation, the worker-owned cooperative federation in Spain that Jason mentions as a real-world model of economic democracy: https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/
• GKN Factory in Florence, Italy, which workers have converted from an auto parts plant into a solar panel factory: https://jacobin.com/2023/04/italy-gkn-factory-occupation-transform-production-workers-jobs-climate-change
• Jason’s Substack article on “delinking”: https://jasonhickel.substack.com/p/what-is-delinking
• Global Inequality Project, a research platform by Jason and team that publishes data on imperialism, unequal exchange, and global inequality: https://globalinequality.org/

Learn more about Jason Hickel and his work: https://www.jasonhickel.org/

Follow Jason Hickel on social media: 

Twitter: https://x.com/jasonhickel 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjasonhickel/ 

Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/jasonhickel.bsky.social

Subscribe to the Better Future podcast on your preferred platform:

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Pocket Casts: https://pca.st/4mgozhfv

Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael__mezz/

Follow the Better Future Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/

00:00 What capitalism really is

01:09 Introducing Jason Hickel

02:20 Capitalist imperialism in action: Venezuela, Iran, Lebanon

05:27 Why the US supports Israel

08:45 Capitalism, coups & the war on sovereignty

22:13 How capitalism creates poverty

25:25 Socialism as a solution

31:41 Why solving the climate crisis means overcoming capitalism

36:09 Economic democracy in practice

48:09 Elections vs. revolution: building a mass movement

57:01 The immiseration of the Western working class

59:28 Socialism is our best alternative to fascism 

1:06:31 The limits of identity politics

1:13:52 Why the West fears China’s rise

1:20:16 How China builds what the West won’t

1:32:54 Delinking from the capitalist law of value 

1:38:02 Hope for a better future

1:46:51 Conclusion

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta

Guest: Jason Hickel

Editor: Nuria Salgado

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Producer: Jade Risser

Thanks for watching episode 016. Stay tuned for more!

My guest today is Johan Rockström – one of the world’s leading climate scientists and the co-creator of the ‘planetary boundaries’ framework. His work is the scientific foundation for much of the new economic thinking I've explored on this show.

We recorded this conversation at the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, and our discussion covers why the climate crisis is no longer a purely environmental or moral issue but a question of security, resilience, and prosperity. We also dive into the nine planetary boundaries – what they are, how many we've breached – and the ecological tipping points we are approaching within the earth system. We end with a discussion of the path forward, including needed transformations across our energy and food systems – and how some countries are starting to lead the way toward a better future.

You can support the Better Future podcast by becoming a paid subscriber on Substack:

https://betterfuturemedia.substack.com/

__

Johan references the second EAT-Lancet Commission report, which found that the way we produce and consume food is now the single largest cause of breaching planetary boundaries: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(25)01201-2/abstract

He also references this Nature paper on the combined role of climate change and deforestation in pushing the Amazon rainforest across a potential tipping point: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-026-10456-0

At the end of our conversation, we discuss the Second Conference for the Just Transition Away from Fossil Fuels, which is happening next year in Tuvalu: https://transitionawayconference.com/

__

Follow Johan Rockström:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johan-rockstr%C3%B6m-325551331/

X: https://x.com/@jrockstrom

Follow the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research:

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__

00:00 Ecological overshoot – but there is a path forward

00:49 Introducing Johan Rockström

01:37 Narrative shift: climate is becoming a security issue

06:44 Planetary boundaries, explained

10:46 The Great Acceleration & the Anthropocene

13:35 7 of 9 boundaries exceeded but it’s not too late

22:20 Tipping points explained (with examples)

28:12 Debunking climate misinformation

34:41 What we need to do: Innovate within constraints

37:56 Energy transition & food system transition

42:01 The political economy of solving the climate crisis

44:44 The path forward: Building coalitions of the willing

51:59 Conclusion

__

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta

Guest: Johan Rockström

Producer: Jade Risser

Editor: Nuria Salgado

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching episode 015. Stay tuned for more!

My guest today is Kate Raworth – renegade economist, author of Doughnut Economics, and co-founder of the Doughnut Economics Action Lab. We get into why mainstream economics leaves out ecology, inequality, and human wellbeing – and what a 21st century economic framework should look like. Kate introduces doughnut economics: a model for meeting the needs of all people within the planetary boundaries of the planet. We discuss the fictional character at the core of mainstream economics, the entrenched narratives holding us back, and how cities like Amsterdam are adopting doughnut economics to move towards a better future. 

Learn more about the Doughnut Economics Action Lab: https://doughnuteconomics.org/

Support the Better Future podcast by becoming a paid subscriber on Substack: https://betterfuturemedia.substack.com/

Subscribe to the Better Future podcast: 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0 

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833

Check out Kate’s website to learn more about her work: kateraworth.com

Find Kate’s book, Doughnut Economics, on Bookshop: https://bookshop.org/p/books/doughnut-economics-seven-ways-to-think-like-a-21st-century-economist-kate-raworth/c567b77a6aa8a1bf

Follow Kate on social media: 

Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/kateraworth.bsky.social

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kate-raworth-188399291/

X: ⁠https://x.com/KateRaworth

Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael__mezz/ 

Follow the Better Future Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/

Timestamps:

00:00 The myth of human nature

01:05 Introducing Kate Raworth

02:18 Should we trust economists?

09:03 The power of diagrams

11:14 Inside the doughnut

15:28 Externalities and earth systems

19:24 Rational Economic Man

28:01 Distributive ownership

31:05 Beyond the capitalism vs. socialism paradigm

39:29 Our addiction to growth

43:53 From growth to thriving

46:15 Mapping our lock-ins to growth

51:35 Doughnut economics in action

01:03:18 Having kids and climate anxiety

01:08:13 Kate as a circus ringmaster

01:19:52 Conclusion

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta 

Guest: Kate Raworth 

Producer: Jade Risser

Editor: Nuria Salgado 

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching episode 014. Lots more on the way!

My guest today is Olivier De Schutter – UN Special Rapporteur on Extreme Poverty and Human Rights, and one of the most important voices in the global movement to redesign the economy around human wellbeing rather than endless growth for the ultra-rich.

We recorded this conversation at the +Wellbeing Economy Forum in Iceland, and our discussion covers a lot of ground – the myths that prop up capitalism; the winners and losers of globalization; the case for economic democracy; how to direct capital toward care work and the solidarity economy; and what a post-growth transition would actually look like.

For a detailed picture of the policies that can guide this transition, you can view the newly-released roadmap “Eradicating Poverty Beyond Growth” here: https://www.neep-poverty.org/roadmap-for-eradicating-poverty-beyond-growth/

Support the Better Future podcast by becoming a paid subscriber on Substack: https://betterfuturemedia.substack.com/

Learn more about the Wellbeing Economy Forum, an annual conference in Iceland for the wellbeing economy movement: https://www.wellbeingeconomyforum.com/

Subscribe to the Better Future podcast on your preferred platform:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0 

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833

Follow Olivier on social media: 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olivier-de-schutter-83990552/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/odeschutter/

X: https://x.com/DeSchutterO

Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/MICHAEL__MEZZ/

Watch our clips on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/

00:00 Intro: The economy panders to the rich 

00:58 Introducing Olivier De Schutter

01:47 Why capitalist efficiency is a myth 

07:19 Has capitalism actually defeated poverty? 

12:27 The commodification of life and the dismantling of the commons 

16:28 The winners and losers of growth and globalization

22:21 The progressive alternative to protectionism 

30:38 Why we need economic democracy 

35:46 The Easterlin paradox: growth without happiness 

39:34 Post-growth as a culture shift 

43:10 How international debt traps the Global South 

50:43 Care work, wages, and the solidarity economy

59:00 Recessions are not post-growth 

01:02:45 Conclusion

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta 

Guest: Olivier De Schutter 

Producer: Jade Risser

Editor: Nuria Salgado 

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching episode 013. Stay tuned for more!

My guest today is Rob Hopkins – co-founder of the Transition Network, a global movement supporting communities to reimagine and rebuild their local economies in response to climate and economic crisis. He's the author of several books, including his most recent, How to Fall in Love with the Future, which makes the case that imagination – not fear – is the most powerful force for change we have. We discuss the limits of the climate movement’s fear-based narrative, Afrofuturist and other resistance movements bringing Rob and Michael hope, and what it means to build a mass longing for a better world. We also did a live imagination exercise with the audience – and you'll want to stick around for it.

This was the first-ever live interview on the Better Future podcast, recorded at ChangeNOW in Paris.

Learn more about Rob and his work: https://www.robhopkins.net/ 

Find his new book, How to Fall In Love With The Future, on Spotify and Bookshop.

Support the Better Future podcast by subscribing: 

Substack:⁠ https://michaelmezzatesta.substack.com/⁠ 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0 

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833

Follow Rob on social media: 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/robhopkins5085/

X: https://x.com/robintransition

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-hopkins-09442948/

Learn more about ChangeNOW, an annual climate solution conference in Paris: https://www.changenow.world/

Timestamps:

00:00 Filling our minds with stories of hope

00:53 Introducing Rob Hopkins 

02:14 Why the future is being canceled (and colonized)

03:34 The problem with the climate movement

08:02 Afrofuturism, Sun Ra, and filling the future with stories 

12:15 What “longing” means - and why it matters 

16:43 Filling our minds with better stories

21:39 Is climate optimism naive?

26:04 Evidence-based dreaming 

29:21 Stopping the rise of the far right: the UK Green Party

33:10 Why fascism hates creativity 

38:33 Afrofuturist history & reimagining the future from the US

43:20 Live exercise: Imagining a better future

48:27 Conclusion

Credits:

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta 

Guest: Rob Hopkins 

Producer: Jade Risser

Editor: Nuria Salgado 

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching, and see you soon!

My guest today is Dr. Butch Ware – historian, professor, and Green Party candidate for Governor of California. In this episode, Dr. Ware argues that the Democrat-Republican duopoly serves the same corporate donors, wages the same wars, and has delivered the same failed outcomes for working people – and that California's 2026 governor's race is a chance for something better. We get into why the lesser-of-two-evils argument keeps well-intentioned voters trapped, what a world built around universal healthcare, housing, and human rights could look like, and how the ongoing collapse of the US empire might be the political opportunity progressives have been waiting for.

Support the Better Future podcast on Substack: https://michaelmezzatesta.substack.com/

Support Dr. Ware’s campaign for California Governor: https://www.butchware4gov.com

Note: Dr. Ware is currently appealing a legal decision (made after we recorded) that would remove his name from the California ballot. His social media channels will have updates on the status of his appeal 👇

Follow Dr. Ware on social media:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/butchware

X: https://x.com/butchware

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@butch.ware

Subscribe to the Better Future podcast:

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Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833

Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael__mezz/

Follow the Better Future podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/

00:00 Intro: The extinction burst of American empire

00:58 Introducing Dr. Butch Ware

01:34 The viability of third party politics in California

08:00 The “lesser of two evils” trap

14:53 The corporate power behind both major parties

21:17 The extinction burst of the American empire & what comes next

24:52 What comes after empire? A vision for a care economy

35:39 Why a care economy is better for everyone

39:28 The stock market is not the economy

44:22 War, capitalism and resource extraction

49:37 Investing in wellbeing instead of empire

55:15 The UK Green Party breakthrough

1:01:05 Policy Vision: Healthcare, Housing, and Human Rights

1:10:41 Why Dr. Ware & the Greens can win

1:15:08 Conclusion

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta

Guest: Dr. Butch Ware

Producer: Jade Risser

Editor: Nuria Salgado

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching episode 011. Lots more on the way.

My guest today is Greg Stoker, a former U.S. Army Ranger who has become a prominent anti-imperialist activist, journalist, and geopolitical commentator. In this conversation, we discuss the escalating conflict in Iran and the broader forces driving U.S. military intervention abroad. Greg shares an insider perspective on how soldiers are taught to understand America’s role in the world, the pervasive influence of evangelical Christianity within the military, and the ideological forces behind U.S. foreign policy. Finally, we talk about his run for Congress (TX-31), and what ordinary people can do to challenge imperialism and build a more peaceful and democratic world.

Support the Better Future podcast on Substack: https://michaelmezzatesta.substack.com/

Support Greg’s campaign for Congress: https://www.stokerfortexas.com/

Follow Greg on social media:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/greg.j.stoker/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@greg.j.stoker

X: https://x.com/gregjstoker

Follow Greg’s podcast Colonial Outcasts:

Youtube: https://youtube.com/@colonialoutcasts

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1o0MF5fJM6Wjdhm0vjx4To

Subscribe to the Better Future podcast:

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Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833

Pocket Casts: https://pca.st/podcast/2559a4c0-39f4-013e-1c18-0acc26574db2

Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael__mezz/

Follow the Better Future podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/

You can email Michael at [email protected]

0:00 This is a war on the working class

1:41 Introducing Greg Stoker

2:39 Why the U.S. & Israel are waging war in Iran

6:08 U.S. capitalist imperialism and wars on the working class

11:49 Why the U.S. needs homelessness

15:32 Debunking justifications for this war in Iran

24:42 The role of radical Christian evangelicalism

29:31 Israel’s role in the “rapture”

33:20 Why evangelical ideology is useful to billionaires

37:36 AI for military targeting

40:50 Pathways toward a better future

46:24 Building coalitions across movements

57:25 Conclusion

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta

Guest: Greg Stoker

Editor: Nuria Salgado

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching episode 10. Lots more on the way :)

My guest today is Saikat Chakrabarti – former chief of staff to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, co-founder of Justice Democrats, co-author of the Green New Deal, and now a candidate for Congress running to replace Nancy Pelosi in San Francisco. We discuss whether the Democratic Party can be transformed from within, why corporate money has hollowed out American politics, and what it would take to build an economy that works for everyone. We also dive deep into AI – who should control it, and why leaving decisions about humanity’s future in the hands of a handful of tech CEOs may be the most dangerous form of deregulation yet.

Support Saikat’s campaign for Congress: https://www.saikat.us/

Support the Better Future podcast on Substack: https://michaelmezzatesta.substack.com/

Follow Saikat on social media:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/saikatforcongress

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@saikatforcongress

X: https://x.com/saikatc

Subscribe to the Better Future podcast:

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0:00 Who controls AI’s future?

0:46 Intro: Saikat Chakrabarti

1:19 Corporate capture in the democratic party

7:03 From tech millionaire to “class traitor”

10:57 Scapegoating immigrants and abolishing ICE

13:48 Reagan’s neoliberal legacy and the case for public investment

22:02 The “March for Billionaires” and wealth inequality

31:33 Building a net zero, high wage economy

42:00 A new foreign policy beyond colonialism

48:43 AI, China, and democratic control of technology

56:46 Replacing corporate Democrats

1:00:16 Cutting funding to Israel

1:02:46 Supporting Saikat

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta

Guest: Saikat Chakarbarti

Editor: Nuria Salgado

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching episode 009. Lots more on the way :)

My guest is Aru Shiney-Ajay, Executive Director of the Sunrise Movement. We spoke while Aru was on the ground in Minneapolis during an unprecedented wave of ICE raids that have shaken the city – and sparked a powerful, decentralized organizing response.

We go beyond the headlines to what’s actually working: neighborhood-level organizing, mutual aid networks, logistical disruption, and new strategies for building power. We also zoom out to reflect on what this moment means for the broader left: how movements can shift from defense to offense, and what lessons from Minneapolis can be applied elsewhere as people across the country (and the world) grapple with authoritarianism, repression, and political paralysis.

Join the Sunrise Movement and/or learn more about their work: https://www.sunrisemovement.org/

Follow Aru on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aru_sa/

Support the Better Future podcast on Substack: https://michaelmezzatesta.substack.com/

Subscribe to the Better Future podcast:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833

Follow Sunrise Movement on social media:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sunrisemvmt/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sunrisemvmt

X: https://x.com/sunrisemvmt/

Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael__mezz/

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0:00 ICE targets mutual aid deliveries

0:44 Intro: Aru Shiney-Ajay

1:45 On the ground in Minneapolis

6:13 Organizing: What’s working?

13:40 Going on the offensive

20:58 Strikes & worker power

24:54 Lessons for the broader movement

34:12 How to get involved

37:22 Conclusion

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta

Guest: Aru Shiney-Ajay

Editor: Nuria Salgado

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching episode 008. Lots more on the way :)

My guest today is Steven Donziger, a human rights and environmental lawyer best known for leading a historic legal case against Chevron on behalf of Indigenous communities in the Ecuadorian Amazon.

We discuss Chevron’s environmental crimes, the weaponization of the legal system, the implications of the recent $600+ million verdict against Greenpeace USA, and what all of this means for climate activism, democracy, and political resistance today.

Support the campaign to restore Steven’s law license: https://chuffed.org/campaign/standwithdonziger

Sign Greenpeace’s open letter against the Energy Transfer verdict: https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/energy-transfer-lawsuit/

Read Steven’s writing on Substack: https://substack.com/@stevendonziger

Follow Steven on social media:

Twitter: https://x.com/SDonziger

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stevendonziger/

Support the Better Future podcast by subscribing:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz

Substack: https://substack.com/@michaelmezzatesta

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833

Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael__mezz/

The Better Future podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/

00:00 Chevron doesn’t want you to hear this

00:34 Introducing Steven Donziger

02:12 The legal battle against Chevron

09:05 Chevron’s power in Ecuador

11:28 Shifting the cultural narrative 

17:05 The legacy of the Ecuadorian people’s win

18:59 Chevron’s retaliation strategy against Donziger

24:10 Personal struggles & resilience

27:43 House arrest & disbarment

34:40 History repeats: Energy Transfer vs. Greenpeace

39:34 The ongoing criminalization of climate advocacy

44:00 The lack of opposition & what to do about it 

52:06 Elite capture & lessons from history

54:42 A movement towards democratic socialism?

58:38 Reasons for hope (& skepticism)

1:02:20 Historical examples of political transformation

1:07:06 Actions to take now

1:10:15 Self-care, resilience & solidarity

1:12:18 The campaign to restore Steven’s law license

1:14:58 Conclusion & links

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta

Guest: Steven Donziger

Editor: Nuria Salgado

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching episode 007. Lots more on the way :)