Better Words

Welcome to Better Words. Hosted by book-loving besties Caitlin and Michelle. We share interviews with authors talking about their books, writing and publishing journey.

We've got a Substack publication as well! On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

Welcome to our favourite episode: the yearly wrap! We're sharing our reading stats, 2024 goals and the books, TV, film and audio we loved in 2023.

Make sure you're also following us on Substack. On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to – and we try to keep these separate from regular episode recommendations. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

Thank you for joining us in 2023 and supporting our wonderful authors. We love hearing your thoughts on the episodes and what books you've been inspired to pick up – even if it's an older episode. You can also connect with us on Instagram @betterwordspod

We're keeping recommendations brief. If we've featured or discussed the book before, we'll link to the episode.

Any PR/review copies marked with *

We kick off with a wrap-up of our reading stats for the year: how many books and pages, the moods and re-reads.

Our awards category of favourite books kicks off at 21:00

Caitlin: One Day We’re All Going To Die by Elise Esther Hearst* (our interview)

Michelle: In Memoriam by Alice Winn

Caitlin: The House that Joy Built by Holly Ringland*

Michelle: Say Nothing by Patrick Radden Keefe

Caitlin: After the Forest by Kell Woods*

Michelle: The Rachel Incident by Caroline O'Donohue

Caitlin: Lola in the Mirror by Trent Dalton*

Michelle: Duck a l’Orange for Breakfast by Karina May* (our interview)

Caitlin: Bound to Happen by Jonathon Shannon* (our interview)

Michelle: Wild Things by Laura Kay

Honourable mention: The Wake Up Call by Beth O'Leary

Caitlin: One Love by Matt Cain* (our interview)

Michelle: Playing Games by Huma Qureshi* (our interview)

Caitlin: Two Can Play That Game by Leanne Yong* (our interview)

Michelle: Little Bang by Kelly McCaughrain*

Honourable mention: Happy Head by Josh Silver (our interview)

Caitlin: West Side Honey by Claire Christian* (our interview)

Michelle: Wrong Place Wrong Time by Gillian McAllister

Caitlin: Yellowface by Rebecca Kuang*

Michelle: Homecoming by Kate Morton – Australian cover

Caitlin: We Could Be Something by Will Kostakis

Michelle: Factory Girls by Michelle Gallen

Caitlin: One Love by Matt Cain* (our interview)

Michelle: Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus

Michelle:

• Caledonian Road by Andrew O’Hagan
• The List of Suspicious Things by Jennie Godfrey
• The Lonely Hearts Quiz League by Lauren Farnsworth

Caitlin:

• Go Lightly by Brydie Lee Kennedy
• Sisterhood by Cathy Kelly
• Just Friends by Gyan Yankovich

Michelle:

• You Belong With Me by Mhairi McFarlane
• The Lifeline by Libby Page
• Crime of the Century by Hallie Rubenhold

Caitlin:

• So Fetch by Jennifer Keishin Armstrong
• The Work by Bri Lee
• Funny Story by Emily Henry

Caitlin:

• Abbott Elementary
• Jury Duty
• Miracle Workers

Michelle:

• The Longest Shadow
• The Boys
• Funny Woman

Caitlin:

• Barbie
• Air
• What's Love Got to Do With It?

Michelle:

• Barbie
• Ford Vs Ferrari/Le Mans '66
• Chicken Run: Dawn of the Nugget

Caitlin:

• And That's What You Missed
• Synced
• Cool Story

Michelle:

• We Are History
• All Killa No Filla
• Oh What a Time (which Michelle totally forgot to actually mention on the podcast)

2023 was also the year Michelle released a two-part podcast/audio documentary with ABC's The History Listen. Listen to part one here and part two here.

Caitlin:

• The Good Witch by Maisie Peters
• Snow Angel by Renee Rapp
• Speak Now (Taylor's Version)

Michelle:

• The Good Witch by Maisie Peters
• You Signed Up for This by Maisie Peters
• Autumn Variations by Ed Sheeran

Caitlin:

• BSC by Maisie Peters
• Talk Too Much by Renee Rapp
• Electric Touch by Taylor Swift ft Fall Out Boy

Michelle:

• I'm Trying (Not Friends) by Maisie Peters
• Positive Spin by Gretta Ray
• Amazing by Ed Sheeran

• Dark Mode by Ashleigh Kalagian-Blunt (our interview)
• The Trial by Laura Bates
• Boy Swallows Universe (book and TV series)
• The Secret Life of Albert Entwhistle by Matt Cain
• Who's That Girl by Mhairi McFarlane
• The Lido by Libby Page
• Literary Legends StoryGraph challenge
• Michelle's Maisie Peters StoryGraph challenge & recommendations if you're not on StoryGraph
• The 52 Book Club StoryGraph challenge
• Reading Advent Calendar from Rare Birds Books
• Daniel Radcliff's dancing
• The Founder (film)
• Wonka (film)
• Anyone But You (film)
• Letterboxd
• Family Politics by John O'Farrell (2024 release)
• Big Small Talk (podcast)

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Matt Cain is an author, broadcaster and former journalist. He was Channel 4’s first Culture Editor, Editor in Chief of Attitude magazine and currently a presenter for Virgin Radio Pride UK. He grew up in Bolton in England’s north and now lives in London. Today, we’re discussing his upcoming novel, One Love. 

Our interview begins at  28.00

We've got a Substack publication now! On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

Caitlin recommends: You Could Be So Pretty by Holly Bourne*

Holly Bourne's latest YA novel takes the pressures of social media and society and notches it up in an intense dystopian exploration of feminism.

Thank you to Usborne Books for sending copies for review.

Michelle recommends: Weyward by Emilia Hart

A gripping and emotional story of three generations of women told through alternating timelines.

We don't often share interviews ahead of publication, but if you're in the UK and would like to pre-order a signed copy, you can do so through Gay's the Word or Gay Pride Shop.

In this interview, we chat about:

• Why One Love is a slight departure from Matt's previous two novels
• Exploring class, straight-passing privilege and intersectionality through main characters Danny and Guy
• Encouraging and allowing people to change their minds
• Body image in the queer community
• Crowdfunding Matt's novel The Madonna of Bolton and overcoming prejudice in publishing
• Layton Williams, who recorded the audiobook for Albert Entwhistle, and Nikita on Strictly Come Dancing 2023 and breaking barriers for future generations

Books and other things mentioned:

• Only Ever Yours by Louise O'Neill
• The Burning by Laura Bates
• The Curious Case of the Alperton Angels by Janice Hallett
• The Christmas Appeal by Janice Hallett (listen to our interview)
• The Flat Share by Beth O'Leary
• Promising Young Woman (film)
• Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
• The Somerton Man
• The mystery of The Somerton Man finally solved after 70 years
• I'll Be Gone in the Dark by Michelle McNamara
• The Longest Shadow (TV series)
• Happy Head by Josh Silver (listen to our interview)
• One Day by David Nicholls
• Wild Things by Laura Kay (and check out our episodes here and here)
• Upper Middle Bogan (TV show)
• Layton and Nikita's Argentine Tango, Couple's Choice and Final Showdance

Follow @mattcainwriter on Instagram

One Love is available from January 18, 2024. Thank you to Headline Publishing Group for providing us copies of the book in preparation for the interview.

Matt will also be publishing a short novel for Quick Reads in April for World Book Night.

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Huma Qureshi is an award-winning author and journalist. Her memoir How We Met: A Memoir of Love and Other Misadventures was shortlisted for the Books Are My Bag Indie Readers Award. Her short story collection, Things We Do Not Tell the People We Love was longlisted for several awards. She has also worked and written for The Guardian and The Observer, among other publications. Today we’re discussing her debut novel, Playing Games. 

Our interview begins at  24.00

We've got a Substack publication now! On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

Caitlin recommends: Directed by James Burrows: Five Decades of Stories from the Legendary Director of Taxi, Cheers, Frasier, Friends, Will & Grace, and More

A fascinating look behind the scenes of some of the most iconic TV sitcoms including Cheers, Frasier and Friends.

Michelle recommends: Brooklyn by Colm Tobain

An emotional journey as a young Irish woman chooses between two lives in the 1950s. One of Michelle's all-time favourites – what did she think of it six years on from first reading it?

*Note: Michelle says it was published in 2019, but she meant 2009.

In this interview, we chat about:

• Our obsession as readers with knowing whether a novel is inspired by real-life
• Where is the line between stealing a story and being inspired by it?
• Huma's focus on creating a nuanced portrayal of sisters and their complicated relationship
• How to represent the creative process on the page
• The beauty of short stories and how it started Huma's journey to publication
• Huma's creative writing courses and how it enhances her craft

Books and other things mentioned:

• Long Island by Colm Tobain
• Cat Person (short story)
• Bad Art Friend (short story)
• Holly Bourne on Emma Gannon's Ctrl Alt Delete
• Yellowface by Rebecca F Kuang
• Between Us by Mhairi McFarlane
• Alice Munro (author)

Follow Huma @humaqureshiwriter

Playing Games is available now. Thank you to Sceptre for providing us with copies of the book in preparation for the interview.

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Megan Williams won the 2022 Text Prize for her debut YA novel Let’s Never Speak of This Again. She lives in Brisbane with her husband and their three children.

Our interview begins at  14.00

We've got a Substack publication now! On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

And take a look at our festive recommendations here!

Caitlin recommends: Heartstopper Vol 5

A beautiful continuation of Nick and Charlie's story. This series is perfect, we couldn't love it more.

Michelle recommends: The Gifts by Laura Barnett

A heartwarming festive novel, told through 12 interconnecting stories of people searching for gifts for their loved ones.

In this interview, we chat about:

• Teenage friendship circles and having a 'best friend'
• Writing realistic parents in YA
• Coming up with book titles
• Exploring different types of grief through a teen lens
• How Megan wrote around parenting two (now three) small children

Books and other things mentioned:

• Recommendation culture on Cool Story by Bri and Bridie
• Creativity by John Cleese

Let's Never Speak of This Again is available now. Thank you to Text Publishing for providing copies of the book in preparation for the interview

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Michelle Upton writes short stories and novels examining our darkest fears and illuminating hope and possibility. Born in Birmingham, Michelle emigrated to Australia in 2006 and is proud to call herself Australian. Michelle has a Bachelor (Hons) degree in Literature with Psychology, and before having children, she was a primary school teacher. Her debut novel, Terms of Inheritance, was shortlisted for the HarperCollins Australia 2021 Banjo Prize. She lives in Brisbane with her family. Today, we're discussing her second novel, Emergency Exit Only.

Our interview begins at  22.00

We've got a Substack publication now! On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

Mini book club: The Rachel Incident by Caroline O'Donohue

We loved this book so much. It's a character-driven contemporary novel about two best friends with a secret and the way one year influences their lives.

In this interview, we chat about:

• Life-changing experiences and finding a new career or passion as an adult
• Pushing out of your comfort zone in the name of research
• How Michelle went from primary school teacher to author
• What running a marathon taught Michelle about writing

Books and other things mentioned:

• Sentimental Garbage podcast
• Chicago (film)
• Conversations with Friends by Sally Rooney
• Code Name Verity by Elizabeth Wein
• Small Things Like These by Claire Keegan
• Factory Girls by Michelle Gallen
• Home Stretch by Graham Norton
• The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho

Follow @michelleuptontheauthor on Instagram

Emergency Exit Only is available now. Thank you to HarperCollins for providing copies of the book in preparation for the interview.

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Please note that we choose podcast guests independently of Caitlin's job at HarperCollins Publishers. Although her job does help put us in touch with authors, we choose our guests based on what we've enjoyed reading and think you'd find interesting.

Jonathon Shannon is a Sydney-based writer and creative director. His work has been recognised at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity, screened at the St Kilda Film Festival, and is housed in the permanent archives of the Museum of Modern Art (MoMA) in New York. Bound to Happen is his debut novel.

Our interview begins at  00.21.00

We've got a Substack publication now! On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

Caitlin recommends: The House that Joy Built by Holly Ringland*

An inspiring non-fiction book exploring creativity and encouraging us to do things purely for the joy of them.

Michelle recommends: Begin Again by Helly Acton

Frankie dies in a freak kebab-related accident and then she's faced with a choice: she can look at several turning points of her life and experience how it would have unfolded. Does she want to begin again in one of those lives or move to the Final Destination?

In this interview, we chat about:

• Deciding how much scientific theory to include in the book through the character of Sophie, an astrophysicist
• WTF is 'string theory', and what does it have to do with love?
• The difficulty of translating and sharing music through words
• What's the line between romantic moves and creepy moves – and how do you make sure you're writing a poetic character, not a weirdo
• Why don't more straight men read or write romance?
• Jonathan's journey from copywriter to published author
• What it's like to have a spouse also publishing novels

Books and other things mentioned:

• The Midnight Library by Matt Haig
• This is Not a Book About Benedict Cumberbatch by Tabitha Carvan
• Minnie Darke (author – listen to our interview here)
• Sliding Doors (film)
• Quantum Leap (TV series)
• Daisy Jones and the Six by Taylor Jenkins-Reid
• The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows by John Koenig
• Dark Mode by Ashleigh Kalagian-Blunt (listen to our interview)
• Sleepless in Seattle (film)
• Love, Actually (film)
• 500 Days of Summer (film)
• Matthew Reilly (author)

Follow @jonathonshannonauthor on Instagram

Bound to Happen is out now. Thank you to Ultimo Press for providing copies of the book in preparation for the interview.

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Eleanor Elliott Thomas worked for many years as a human rights lawyer before devoting herself full-time to writing. She lives in Melbourne with her partner, two kids, and three cats. Today, we're discussing her debut novel, The Opposite of Success.

Our interview begins at  00.17.00

We've got a Substack publication now! On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

Mini book club: Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus

Finally, we've read one of the most hyped books of 2022, and we loved it. It follows Elizabeth Zott, a scientist who has to fight against the misogyny of 1960s society in her science career and personal life. This is an emotional and clever novel we both highly recommend (along with everyone else).

In this interview, we chat about:

• How Eleanor settled on the one-day timeframe and dual POV
• Review culture and how it feels to be on the other side of opinions about work
• Eleanor's incredibly smooth publishing deal and adjusting expectations after publication
• How to classify and compare The Opposite of Success in the bookstore
• Switching to writing after working as a lawyer for 15 years

Books and other things mentioned:

• Minnie Darke (listen to our interview)
• Mad Men (TV series)
• Fleabag (TV series)
• Motherland (TV series)
• A Single Man by Christopher Isherwood
• Barbie (film)
• Strong Female Character by Fern Brady
• Sorrow and Bliss by Meg Mason (listen to our interview)

Follow Eleanor and take a look at her Substack.

The Opposite of Success is available now. Thank you to Text Publishing for providing us with copies of the book in preparation for the interview.

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Janice Hallett is the author of three best-selling novels. Her debut, The Appeal, was awarded the CWA Debut Dagger of 2021. Her second novel, The Twyford Code, was named Crime & Thriller Book of the Year in the British Book Awards 2023. The Mysterious Case of the Alperton Angels was an instant Times and Sunday Times bestseller on its launch in January 2023. Janice is a former magazine editor, award-winning journalist, and government communications writer. As a playwright and screenwriter, she penned the feminist Shakespearean stage comedy NetherBard and co-wrote the feature film Retreat. Today, we're discussing her festive novella returning to the world of her debut: The Christmas Appeal.

Our interview begins at  21:00

We've got a Substack publication now! On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

Caitlin has been shimmying away in Jersey Boys and hasn't had time to read much, so instead, Michelle is giving two recommendations for the week.

Michelle recommends: Strong Female Character by Fern Brady

This memoir is, at times, tough to read because it is unflinchingly honest. Fern was told she 'couldn't be autistic' because she had boyfriends and made eye contact – but this book explores the ways that being female has got in the way of an autism diagnosis and how understanding herself as autistic has helped her understand herself better.

Michelle recommends: The Schoolhouse by Sophie Ward

This literary thriller introduces us to Isobel – a woman who lives an isolated life and feels safe in her routines. When she gets a letter from an old teacher and a local schoolgirl goes missing, it sends her spiralling into the memories of a traumatic experience at an experimental school from the 1970s. The story dips between the present investigation in 1990 and Isobel's diary entries from 1975.

In this interview, we chat about:

• Janice's almost accidental turn to book publishing after a decade of trying to get a screenwriting career off the ground – and how this inspired The Appeal's groundbreaking format
• The joy of community theatre and how it's shaped Janice's life
• How Janice plans and writes her novels
• Revisiting the world of Lockwood for The Christmas Appeal
• A little teaser for Janice's 2024 novel, The Examiner
• How Janice feels about the success of her books after so many years of screenwriting

Books and other things mentioned:

• Maisie Peters in her Wembley era (like it's hard)
• Book Bar (follow them here!)
• Cool Story Podcast by Bridie Jabor and Bri Lee (discussing The Fraud by Zadie Smith)
• Treason (musical production)
• Partygate (TV series)
• Attachments by Rainbow Rowell

Follow @janice.hallett on Instagram

The Christmas Appeal is available now. Thank you to Viper Books for sending us copies of the book to read in preparation for the interview.

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Alice Pung OAM is one of Australia's foremost writers. She wrote the memoirs Unpolished Gem and Her Father’s Daughter, and edited anthologies Growing Up Asian in Australia and My First Lesson. Her debut novel Laurinda won the Ethel Turner Prize at the 2016 NSW Premier’s Literary Awards and has been adapted for the stage. Her second novel, One Hundred Days, was shortlisted for the 2022 Miles Franklin Award. She is also the author of children's books including Be Careful, Xiao Xin! (ill. Sher Rill Ng). Today, we're discussing her new children's series Millie Mak the Maker. Alice was awarded an Order of Australia Medal for services to literature in 2022.

Our interview begins at  30:00

We've got a Substack publication now! On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

Take a look at our October wrap-up here!

Mini book club: Laurinda by Alice Pung

A must-read of the Aussie young adult canon and a book we've meant to read for years. We're so glad we finally read this beautiful, heartfelt exploration of Lucy Lam's experience at a prestigious Melbourne girls' school.

In this interview, we chat about:

• How the working-class suburbs of Australia where Alice grew up inspired the story of Millie Mak
• Inspiring young girls to make and craft
• The class and privilege of children's toys and upcycling
• The magic of finding an illustrator to collaborate with who also understands the nuances of growing up in a country with a history of colonialism
• How Alice has managed to write across so many age ranges
• Why One Hundred Days became Alice's debut adult novel
• The experience of seeing Laurinda adapted for the stage

Books and other things mentioned:

• 1989 (Taylor's Version) (album)
• The Good Witch Deluxe by Maisie Peters (album)
• Positive Spin by Gretta Ray (album)
• Genevieve Novak (listen to our interview here)
• The Woman in Me by Britney Spears
• Basil the Great Mouse Detective (film)
• Danielle Binks (listen to our interview)
• Labyrinth (film)
• Boy Swallows Universe by Trent Dalton
• All the Light We Cannot See by Anthony Doerr
• Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (production)

You can find ways to contact Alice on her website.

Millie Mak the Maker is available now, as are all Alice's other books.

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Please note that we choose podcast guests independently of Caitlin's job at HarperCollins Publishers. Although her job does help put us in touch with authors, we choose our guests based on what we've enjoyed reading and think you'd find interesting.