Better Words

Jessica Dettmann is the author of three novels: How To be Second Best, This Has Been Absolutely Lovely, and Without Further Ado, and a picture book called There’s No Such Book. After a decade working as a book editor for Random House, HarperCollins and freelance, she made the transition to writing after having kids. She was born and raised in Sydney and here she remains, disappointing her fourteen-year-old self, who assumed she would be living in the pensione in Florence from A Room With A View by now.

Our interview begins at  00:19:00

We've got a Substack publication now! On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

Mini book club: Am I Normal Yet? by Holly Bourne (The Spinster Club #1)

Evie is 16 and determined to be 'normal', continuing her recovery from OCD and anxiety. But as she starts college and tries to live a 'normal' teenage life, things start to spiral out of control. An enjoyable, although at times emotional, exploration of how mental health is never linear. Plus, it's a rousing feminist manifesto - although we think some of the topics would be discussed slightly differently today than in 2015.

In this interview, we chat about:

• Why Jessica is obsessed with the 1993 adaptation of Much Ado About Nothing and how it sparked the idea for this novel
• How Willa's love for that movie has shaped her romantic journey and why Jessica wanted to explore that in the novel
• Exploring large families and their intricacies in fiction
• Jessica's experience working in the publishing industry and how it felt to transition into being an author
• How Jessica once sat on the balcony of Sydney Town Hall dressed as a Christmas angel

Books and other things mentioned:

• How Do You Like Me Now?, Pretending and Girl Friends by Holly Bourne
• Much Ado About Nothing (1993 film - see the opening scenes here)
• Angus, Thongs and Perfect Snogging (film)
• 10 Things I Hate About You (film)
• Upstart Crow (TV series)
• Into the Woods (production and film)

Follow Jessica at @jessicadettmannauthor

Without Further Ado is available now.

Please note that we choose podcast guests independently of Caitlin's job at HarperCollins Publishers. Although her job does help put us in touch with authors, we choose our guests based on what we've enjoyed reading and think you'd find interesting.

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Leanne is an Asian-Australian author of Singaporean and Malaysian heritage who loves writing the diaspora experience into contemporary and fantasy fiction.

She started her career as an IT business analyst (boring – her words, not ours!) and is now an escape room creator (much more interesting). She has designed internationally recognised games with her partner that weave unique puzzle mechanics with narrative.

Although she lives in Sydney, Brisbane is where her home is.

Our interview begins at  0:19:00

We've got a Substack publication now! On the last day of the month, we share recommendations for two things we reckon you should read/watch/listen to. The beauty of Substack is you can revisit all our old editions and comment on our episode updates to share your thoughts. Come say hi!

Caitlin recommends: Jennette McCurdy at All About Women 2023

We wouldn't usually recommend an event that's passed, but for a limited time you can rent the live stream of this conversation between Jennette McCurdy and our fave Rosie Waterland. Off the back of that Caitlin recommends I'm Glad My Mom Died by Jennette McCurdy and Rosie Waterland's two books, The Anti-Cool Girl and Every Lie I've Ever Told.

Michelle recommends: Wrong Place Wrong Time by Gillian McAllister

This is a twisty thriller of the best kind, exploring the little moments that lead up to life-changing events. Perfect for non-thriller readers and guaranteed to keep you up past your bedtime.

In this interview, we chat about:

• Leanne's love for gaming – and why she didn't actually expect to write about it
• Why Leanne 'aged down' protagonist Sam from graduating uni to post-high school to secure a book deal
• Exploring cultural expectations, Malaysian food and supportive Asian parents
• How Leanne got into gaming
• The real games that inspired the novel's games – and how Leanne wrote those scenes
• Leanne's journey to publication (and the many manuscripts she wrote along the way)
• How Leanne became an escape room designer

Books and other things mentioned:

• Hogwarts Legacy (game)
• Take a Bow, Noah Mitchell by Tobias Madden (listen to us chat about the book here)
• Red Dead Redemption II (game)
• Final Fantasy 7 (game)
• What Was Gamergate?

Follow Leanne @shewhowritesthings

Two Can Play That Game is available now. Thank you to Allen & Unwin for providing a copy of the book in preparation for the interview.

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

It's our favourite episode of the year – our favourite books, films, TV and audio of the year. Thank you for joining us in 2022 and supporting our wonderful authors.

We've started a Substack for Better Words to give you extra mini recommendations each month outside of our podcast episodes. Come join us!

You can also find us Storygraph: Michelle and Caitlin.

Season 10 (can you BELIEVE?!) will be in your ears in a few months.

We're keeping recommendations brief. If we've featured or discussed the book before, we'll link to the episode.

We'll mark any PR/review copies with *

Adult fiction

Caitlin:

• Babel by R.F. Kuang*
• All My Mothers by Joanna Glen* (original rec)
• The Seven Skins of Esther Wilding by Holly Ringland*

Michelle:

• Girl Friends by Holly Bourne
• Cat Lady by Dawn O'Porter
• Yinka, Where is Your Huzband? by Lizzie Damilola Blackburn* (interview)

Young Adult

Caitlin:

• Libby Lawrence is Good at Pretending by Jodi McAlister* (interview)
• The Cult of Romance by Sarah Ayoub* (interview)
• August and Jones by Pip Harry* (interview)

Michelle:

• Unnecessary Drama by Nina Kenwood* (interview)
• Blood to Poison by Mary Watson* (interview)
• Sugar by Carly Nugent* (interview)

Non-fiction

Caitlin:

• How to Be Perfect by Mike Schur
• Friends, Lovers and the Big Terrible Thing by Matthew Perry
• I'm Glad My Mom Died by Jeanette McCurdy

Michelle:

• Why Did You Stay? by Rebecca Humphries (read my Substack review)
• Redhanded: An Exploration of Criminals, Cannibals, Cults, and What Makes a Killer Tick by Suruthi Bala and Hannah McGuire
• Parsnips, Buttered by Joe Lycett

Favourite cover

Caitlin: Tiny Uncertain Miracles by Michelle Johnston

Michelle: The Lamplighters by Emma Stonex

The hype read

Caitlin: Book Lovers by Emily Henry

Michelle: The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo by Taylor Jenkins-Reid

The book we recommend to each other

Caitlin: I'm Glad My Mom Died by Jeanette McCurdy

Michelle: All Our Hidden Gifts by Caroline O'Donohue

The new release we want to read

Caitlin: Love & Autism by Kay Kerr

Michelle: The Vintage Shop of Second Chances by Libby Page

(We also both have Spare on reserve at the library)

The book we already own and want to actually read

Caitlin: Looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta

Michelle: Still Life by Sarah Winman

TV

Caitlin:

• Barry
• She-Hulk: Attorney at Law
• The Resort

Michelle:

• Chernobyl
• The Dropout
• Holby City

Joint favourite: Heartstopper (listen to our full discussion)

Movies

Caitlin:

• West Side Story
• Being the Riccardos

Michelle:

• Downton Abbey: A New Era
• More, More, More by Joe Lycett

Joint recommendation: Matilda the Musical (Netflix)

Audio

Caitlin:

• Midnights by Taylor Swift
• And That's What You Really Missed
• Maisie Peters

Michelle:

• Redhanded
• There's Nothing But Space, Man by Sam Ryder
• All Killa, No Filla

Books and other things mentioned

• The Lost Flowers of Alice Hart
• Just the Gist 2022 reccos and recommendations episode
• Beyond the Wand by Tom Felton
• Dying of Politeness by Geena Davis
• A Class Act by Rob Beckett
• Windswept and Interesting by Billy Connolly
• Wahala by Nikki May
• Palm Springs (film)
• Happy Valley season 3 (TV series)
• Slate article on Matilda's Trunchbull evolution
• The Lonely Island
• Eurovision: The Story of Fire Saga (film)

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

We're switching things up for Season 9: Welcome to The Re-Read. In this mini-season, we check in with a selection of past guests to find out what they've been working on. Expect lots of books, some babies and plenty of chat.

This season works a little differently, without book recommendations from us at the start of each episode. But we promise you'll still get plenty of books added to your TBR!

Interview 1: Gabrielle Tozer

Gabrielle Tozer was one of the first guests on the podcast, so she's been very busy since we last spoke. She joins us to discuss her children’s book Melody Trumpet, and another Young Adult novel, Can’t Say it Went to Plan.

You can follow Gabrielle on Instagram @gabrielletozer

In this interview, we chat about:

• How motherhood has changed Gabrielle's writing career and what styles she wants to write
• Why every book needs a different writing process
• Gab's latest YA novel, Can't Say It Went to Plan, and choosing how to portray Schoolies experiences

Can't Say It Went to Plan is available in Australia now. Remind Me How It Ends is now available in the US.

Interview 2: Rhiannon Wilde

Rhiannon Wilde joined us in 2021 to chat about her debut YA novel, Henry Hamlet's Heart. We were itching to discuss her second novel, Where You Left Us, which was released in September. 

Listen to our previous chat with Rhiannon here.

You can follow Rhiannon on Instagram @rhiannon_wilde

In this interview, we chat about:

• Writing about anxiety while dealing with it as a creative person
• Second book nerves, perfectionism and confronting your own ambition as a writer
• Going from writing in isolation to finally visiting writer's festivals
• What Rhiannon is working on next

Where You Left Us is available now in Australia. Henry Hamlet's Heart is out now in the US.

Books and other things mentioned:

• Angus, Thongs, and Perfect Snogging (film)
• Before the Beginning by Anna Morgan
• Sophie Gonzales' publishing journey (listen to our chat here)
• Folklore, Evermore and Midnights by Taylor Swift
• Girl Friend by Holly Bourne

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

We're switching things up for Season 9: Welcome to The Re-Read. In this mini-season, we check in with a selection of past guests to find out what they've been working on. Expect lots of books, some babies and plenty of chat.

This season works a little differently, without book recommendations from us at the start of each episode. But we promise you'll still get plenty of books added to your TBR!

Interview 1: Pip Harry

After we spoke to Pip Harry about her 2017 YA novel, Because of You, she moved to Singapore for several years and has only recently returned to Australia. She’s also been busy on the publishing front...

She published a verse novel for young teens, Are You There Budda?, in 2021. But Pip has also moved into middle grade fiction, including the 2020 CBCA children’s book of the year for younger readers - The Little Wave, which was published in 2019 - and her latest book, August and Jones, published in June this year.

You can follow Pip on Instagram @piphaz

In this interview, we chat about:

• How Pip went from writing YA to writing verse novels for middle-grade audiences
• The gorgeous real-life friendship that inspired Pip's latest book, August and Jones
• Making disability visible through storytelling and working

August and Jones is available now. Thank you to UQP for sending us copies of the book in preparation for the interview.

Interview 2: Ellie Marney

Ellie Marney is the bestselling and award winning author of the Every series, and she’s been very busy since we spoke to her about self publishing No Limits back in 2017. With White Night in 2018, The Circus Hearts series, None Shall Sleep in 2020, The Killing Code in 2022 and Some Shall Break coming in 2023.

You can follow @elliemarney on Instagram

In this interview, we chat about:

• What Ellie's been up to since she first spoke to us five years ago
• The evolution of the #LoveOzYA movement
• Writing 'a YA Silence of the Lambs' and how that helped Ellie crack the US market
• Ellie's 2022 book The Killing Code and codebreaking in WWII
• Inside the wild world of Washington in WWII

The Killing Code is available now. Some Shall Break will be available in June.

Books and other things mentioned:

• The Weight of Water by Sarah Crossan
• Unnecessary Drama by Nina Kenwood (listen to our chat with Nina here)
• The Book Thief by Marcus Zusak
• You Can't Ask That (TV series)
• Fighting Words by Kimberley Brubaker-Bradley (listen to our chat here)
• Silence of the Lambs (film)
• Mindhunter (TV series)
• Mindhunter by John Douglas
• The Imitation Game (film)
• The Bletchley Circle (TV series)
• Code Girls by Liza Mundy
• The Flatshare by Beth O'Leary
• Redhanded (podcast)
• Real Crime Profile (podcast)

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

We're switching things up for Season 9: Welcome to The Re-Read. In this mini-season, we check in with a selection of past guests to find out what they've been working on. Expect lots of books, some babies and plenty of chat.

This season works a little differently, without book recommendations from us at the start of each episode. But we promise you'll still get plenty of books added to your TBR!

Interview 1: Laura Kay

Laura Kay is a journalist and editor. She has an MA in American History from the University of Sheffield, and now lives in London with her wife and cat. In 2018, Laura was selected as one of the 10 PRH WriteNow mentees. We first spoke to her about her debut, The Split and we're delighted to have her on the podcast again to chat about her second novel, Tell Me Everything.

Listen to our previous chat with Laura here.

Follow Laura on Instagram @lauraekay

In this interview, we chat about:

• Writing therapy scenes and internal monologues in the book
• The cover design for Tell Me Everything
• Publishing queer rom-coms and finding mainstream shelf space
• Being able to celebrate the book release out of lockdown
• What Laura's working on now

Tell Me Everything is available now.

Interview 2: Danielle Wood (Minnie Darke)

Danielle Wood or Minnie Darke? Our guest goes by a few names, but we just called her Danielle. We first spoke to Danielle about the publication of Star Crossed in 2019. This time, she's chatting about her new book With Love from Wish and Co.

Listen to our previous chat with Danielle here.

You can follow Danielle as Minnie on Instagram @minniedarke

In this interview, we chat about:

• What it was like to have a book come out in March 2020 and choosing whether to include Covid in the new book
• Professional gift buying and how it inspired With Love from Wish and Co
• The bonding of gift giving
• The experience of writing an audiobook novella (Wild Apples, coming soon)
• What it's like being a writer with more than one persona, and the benefits of marketing as two separate authors

With Love from Wish and Co is available now.

Books and other things mentioned

• Freaky Friday (film)
• Crazy Ex-Girlfriend (TV series)
• No Hard Feelings by Genevieve Novak
• Schitt's Creek (TV series)
• Double Booked by Lily Lindon
• Welcome to Your Life by Bethany Rutter

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

We're switching things up for Season 9: Welcome to The Re-Read. In this mini-season, we check in with a selection of past guests to find out what they've been working on. Expect lots of books, some babies and plenty of chat.

This season works a little differently, without book recommendations from us at the start of each episode. But we promise you'll still get plenty of books added to your TBR!

Interview 1: Tobias Madden

Tobias grew up in Ballarat and worked for 10 years as a performer touring Australia and New Zealand with musicals, including Mary Poppins, CATS, Singin' in the Rain, and Guys and Dolls. We first spoke to him for Better Words in 2019 when he edited and published Underdog, the first #LoveOzYA short story collection for previously unpublished Aussie writers. In 2019, he also wrote a cabaret show, Siblingship, which played to sold-out audiences and several cities. In 2021, we spoke to him about his debut YA novel Anything But Fine. Now we're chatting about his second book, Take a Bow, Noah Mitchell.

Listen to our previous chat with Tobias here.

You can follow Tobias on Instagram @tobias_madden

In this interview, we chat about:

• Going viral (and knowing JLo's seen it!)
• Why we're getting sick of social media
• Writing and publishing another novel
• What Tobias is working on next

Take a Bow, Noah Mitchell is available now in Australia and out soon in the US.

Interview 2: Nina Kenwood

Nina Kenwood has worked in the book industry for over a decade, including with Melbourne’s iconic Readings bookshop. We first spoke to her about her Text Prize-winning debut, It Sounded Better In My Head. She had also only just given birth when we first spoke to her, so we were excited to see how motherhood has impacted her writing journey in this chat about her new novel, Unnecessary Drama.

Listen to our first chat with Nina here.

You can follow Nina on Instagram @ninakenwood

In this interview, we chat about:

• Why Nina decided to "write towards joy"
• The difficult decisions over writing around Covid
• Exploring anxiety and the post-school years

Books and other things mentioned:

• Tobias and Daniel going viral
• This is Not a Book About Benedict Cumberbatch by Tabitha Carven
• The Goodbye Year by Emily Gale
• The Cult of Romance by Sarah Ayoub (listen to our interview here)

Unnecessary Drama is out in Australia and will be released in the US in August.

Thank you to Text Publishing for providing us with a copy of Unnecessary Drama prior to the interview.

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

We're switching things up for Season 9: Welcome to The Re-Read. In this mini-season, we check in with a selection of past guests to find out what they've been working on. Expect lots of books, some babies and plenty of chat.

This season works a little differently, without book recommendations from us at the start of each episode. But we promise you'll still get plenty of books added to your TBR!

We're kicking things off with a wrap-up of our travels, including some of the wonderful books we read along the way. Plus, a few other bookish adventures.

And, if you'll allow us to be a little self-indulgent, we're sharing all the details of Michelle's Edinburgh elopement. You can see shots from the day here and here.

Wanna skip to the book recommendations? We get into that at

We'll mark any PR/review copies with *

Books recommended:

Caitlin:

• Terms of Inheritance by Michelle Upton*
• Babel by RF Kuang*
• Beyond the Wand by Tom Felton

Michelle:

• Unnecessary Drama by Nina Kenwood (stay tuned for a Re-Read chat)
• The Bullet that Missed by Richard Oseman (Thursday Murder Club #3)
• Girl Friends by Holly Bourne
• Cat Lady by Dawn O'Porter
• Why Did You Stay? by Rebecca Humphries
• Tell Me Everything by Laura Kay (stay tuned for a Re-Read chat)

Bookshops visited:

• Rare Birds, Edinburgh
• Golden Hare Bookshop, Edinburgh
• Toppings and Company, Edinburgh (check out our AMAZING wedding pics in the store)
• Toppings and Company, Bath
• Waterstones, Edinburgh
• The Stripey Badger, Grassington
• Daunt Books, London
• Gay's the Word, London
• Juno Books, Sheffield

Books and other things mentioned:

• Our reception venue, The Sheep Heid, and its skittles alley
• Check out Caitlin's bookshop visits on Instagram
• The Satsuma Complex by Bob Mortimer
• Matilda (Film, Netflix)
• The Jane Austen Centre, Bath
• Murder Before Evensong by Reverend Richard Cole
• How Do You Like Me Now by Holly Bourne
• Pretending by Holly Bourne
• Michelle's going back to occasional book reviews at The Unfinished Bookshelf on Substack
• Pride! (film)
• The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo by Taylor Jenkins Reid

Musicals:

• Come From Away
• Les Miserables
• Back to the Future
• Matilda

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Hayli Thomson lives in Sydney, Australia, and writes novels about candid characters for anybody who ever watched Jo March leap a fence and longed to be her best friend. Bizarrely, during her teen years, Hayli was afflicted with a 'headache' every third Monday in September, when she was left with no option but to stay home from school and watch her favourite female comedians collect Emmys live on the other side of the world. The Comedienne's Guide to Pride is her debut YA novel.

Our interview begins at  00:17:00

Caitlin recommends: Abbie Chats (pilot episode)

Michelle recommends: The Spy Who Dumped Me (film)

Joint recommendation: Just the Gist of the Salem Witch Trials

We also reminisce about the fact July marks FIVE YEARS since we started this podcast. We've been through multiple house/city/country moves, an engagement, various jobs, hosted three live interviews, interviewed dozens of incredible authors, read countless books, been on three international holidays, experienced the loss of a parent, and gone through three podcast hosts. PHEW!

Because we launched into that reflection with zero preparation we forgot to say a gigantic thank you for listening to and supporting us. Whether you've been with us from the start (omg sorry about the audio quality!) or you've just started listening (hi! welcome!) we love you and we are so grateful. Happy reading and we will be back in your feeds with something a teeny bit different soon! – Michelle & Caitlin x

We're also sharing a trailer this week for our pal Thalia who is launching the Wild Books podcast. It's going to fill the bookish void in your feed while we are on a break!

In this interview, we chat about:

• Why Hayli set her book in Salem
• Biphobia and why Hayli wanted to explore Taylor's journey to recognising her own wrongdoings within the novel
• Hayli's dream trip to see Saturday Night Live filming live in New York
• Hayli's journey to publication, including landing her book deal in the US first

Books and other things mentioned:

• This Is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay
• The Crucible
• Practical Magic (film)
• Perfect on Paper and our interview with Sophie Gonzales
• Bridesmaids (film)
• Baby Mama (film)
• Parks and Recreation (series)
• Mock the Week (TV series)
• Have I Got News for You (TV series)

Follow Hayli on Instagram @hayli.thomson

The Comedienne's Guide to Pride is available now in Australia and the US.

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod

Please note that we choose podcast guests independently of Caitlin's job at HarperCollins Publishers. Although her job does help put us in touch with authors, we choose our guests based on what we've enjoyed reading and think you'd find interesting.

Jodi McAlister is an author and academic. In her author life, her latest books are Libby Lawrence Is Good At Pretending, a campus rom-com about theatre kids with too many emotions, and Here for the Right Reasons, playing with reality TV tropes. As an academic, she researches romantic love and popular culture and is a Senior Lecturer in Writing, Literature and Culture at Deakin University.

Our interview begins at  16:00

Caitlin recommends: The Summer I Turned Pretty (TV series)

A frivolous and fun YA rom-com that feels really nostalgic of YA from the 2010s.

Michelle recommends: All Our Hidden Gifts by Caroline O'Donohue

Queer witchy YA. Need we say more? Okay then, tarot cards and a missing girl. Enjoy!

In this interview, we chat about:

• Jodi's experience as a theatre kid and why it's made her the writer she is today (while also heavily influencing Libby Lawrence is Good at Pretending)
• Why Jodi chose to explore Much Ado About Nothing in the novel
• Switching between paranormal and contemporary genres and how the writing informs each project
• Jodi's new adult novel, Here for the Right Reasons, which is set on a season of (a show that's definitely not) The Bachelor
• What's it like to study popular culture academically?
• How the stories we tell about love affect the way we think about love in reality
• Jodi's research into virginity loss representation in the media
• The rise and fall of New Adult and where we go next

Books and other things mentioned:

• The Appeal by Janice Hallett
• Unreal: A Critical History of Reality TV (podcast)
• Love Island UK (TV series)
• The Circle UK (TV series)
• The Bachelor (TV series)
• Social Queue by Kay Kerr
• The Cult of Romance by Sarah Ayoub (listen to our interview here)
• Bloodlines by Richelle Mead
• Colleen Hoover (author)

Follow @jodimcalister on Instagram

Connect with us on Instagram: @betterwordspod