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Ever wonder what a true visionary in arts administration leads like?  Enter our guest Tony Thomann - executive director of the Minnesota Youth Symphonies.  Truly dedicated to the cause of young orchestral musicians in every way, Tony is the ultimate team builder and steady hand on a tiller.

Ever wonder what meaningless banter, fruitless band boozlers and wandering questions sound like?  Enter Phil, Peter and Chris.  Mustering every ounce of experience gained over the last four seasons, our hosts derail and blame each other at every turn.  Commuter, we appreciate your support and occasional critique, even if we can’t really seem to respond adequately.  It’s mostly Peter’s fault.

Learn More About Tony and the Minnesota Youth Symphonies Here: https://www.mnyouthsymphonies.org/

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2027 BEYOND THE NOTE FESTIVALS - A few spots remain!!

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/festivals/ensembles/kalahari-1

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2027 W/ ADRIAN SIMS (closes Sept 15)

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2028 W/ OMAR THOMAS

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

FREE MUSIC (ends Sept 15)

MAX JOY - ERIKA SVANOE

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/

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What do you get when you put Chris, Phil, Peter, and Dr. Jennifer Hawkinson in the same room? A conversation full of laughter, honest stories, teaching wisdom, and at least a few moments where you'll find yourself thinking, "Yep... that's exactly what it's like to be a music teacher."

In this episode of Beyond Artless, we're joined by Dr. Jennifer Hawkinson, Associate Professor of Music Education and Director of the Symphonic Band at Concordia College. Jennifer has spent her career shaping musicians and mentoring future educators, but what makes this conversation so special isn't just her résumé—it's her ability to blend excellence with humility, high expectations with genuine kindness, and just enough humor to remind us that no rehearsal is ever completely under control.

From her years teaching in South Dakota public schools to preparing tomorrow's band directors at Concordia, Jennifer shares stories that are equal parts inspiring and wonderfully relatable. She reminds us that the best teachers don't have all the answers—they simply keep showing up, keep learning, and occasionally laugh at the chaos along the way.

What you'll hear in this episode:

• How Jennifer's journey led her from the school band room to the college classroom
• The mentors who shaped her—and why every great teacher stands on someone else's shoulders
• What future music educators really need to know before their first day on the podium
• Building rehearsal environments where students feel challenged, valued, and empowered
• Why relationships will always outlast repertoire
• The little moments that remind us why we chose this profession in the first place

Of course, it wouldn't be Beyond Artless without a healthy dose of laughter. Chris, Phil, and Peter swap stories with Jennifer about the wonderfully unpredictable life of music educators—those rehearsals that somehow survive flattened trumpets, questionable rhythms, and the occasional "creative interpretation" of the conductor's instructions.

Whether you're a veteran teacher, a future music educator, or someone who simply appreciates the people who make school music programs come alive, this episode feels like sitting around the table with friends who just happen to care deeply about making music—and making people better through it.

Jennifer's passion is contagious, her perspective is refreshing, and her heart for students shines through every story she tells.

Join us for a conversation filled with wisdom, warmth, a few laughs, and a reminder that while music may not solve every problem, it certainly makes the journey a whole lot better. That's what happens Beyond Artless.

SHOW CREDITS:
WALTON Coronation March, “Crown Imperial” - "The President's Own" United States Marine Band
Performed on April 2, 2023, at Northern Virginia Community College's Rachel M. Schlesinger Concert Hall and Arts Center in Alexandria, Va., as part of a concert titled "Sacred Hymns, Songs, and Sounds."

William Walton's Coronation March, “Crown Imperial”
transcribed by William Duthoit
Conducted by First Lieutenant Darren Lin
Program and notes: https://www.marineband.marines.mil/Po...

REGISTER NOW:
2027 BEYOND THE NOTE FESTIVALS - A few spots remain!!
https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/festivals/ensembles/kalahari-1

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2027 W/ ADRIAN SIMS
https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2028 W/ OMAR THOMAS
https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

FREE MUSIC until September 15
MAX JOY - ERIKA SVANOE
https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/

THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS
Grand Tours
Concordia College
Heid Music

Interested in sponsoring with us? Learn more here!

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Welcome Back, Commuters!

Welcome back to Season 5 of Beyond ArtLess! After four seasons, more than 35,000 downloads, and an impressive lack of professional growth on the part of your hosts, we're thrilled to have you along for another ride.

This season, The Empire Strikes a Budget, we're once again talking with fascinating people about music, education, creativity, and whatever else manages to derail the conversation. Expect surprise guests, questionable questions, Band Buzzlers, Band Boozlers, and the occasional moment of actual insight.

Thanks for listening, laughing, and continuing to commute with us. We’re glad you’re back.

Same podcast. Same idiots. New season.

REGISTER NOW:

2027 BEYOND THE NOTE FESTIVALS - A few Jazz spots remain!!

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/festivals/ensembles/kalahari-1

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2027 W/ ADRIAN SIMS

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2028 W/ OMAR THOMAS

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

FREE MUSIC: 

MAX JOY - ERIKA SVANOE

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/

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In the Season 4 finale of Beyond ArtLess, we are joined by legendary Chicago Symphony Orchestra tubist Gene Pokorny for a conversation that moves seamlessly from orchestral artistry to teamwork, teaching, and steam locomotives.

With Peter away caring for family, special guest co-host Paul Kile joins Chris and Phil for a finale episode that is somehow thoughtful, hilarious, and significantly more organized than usual.

In This Episode:

•  Gene reflects on life inside the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and why he still “pinches himself” walking onto the stage 
•  Stories about working with conductors including Riccardo Muti and Klaus Mäkelä
•  The arrival of new principal trombonist Tim Higgins and how personnel changes reshape an orchestra 
•  Gene’s philosophy on expressive playing, rubato, and storytelling in music 
•  Why so many young brass players focus on technique before expression 
•  Lessons learned from legendary teachers including Roger Bobo, Tommy Johnson, and Arnold Jacobs
•  The origins of the Pokorny Seminar and the importance of teamwork in music education 
•  Steam locomotives, railroad leadership, and what musicians can learn from the Union Pacific “Big Boy” 
•  Why Mahler ultimately beats Shostakovich… at least today 

Favorite Moments:

•  “You’ve got 52 weeks. I’ve got four measures.” 
•  “There’s nothing extraordinarily special about what we’re doing. We just happen to be lucky enough to put together something greater than the sum of the parts.” 
•  “We still have to worry about long tones. Jesus.” 

Also in This Episode:

•  Chris shares his recent trip to hear the Chicago Symphony Orchestra perform Saint-Saëns’ “Organ Symphony” 
•  Festival prep chaos: 4,188 students, endless pizza, and waterpark logistics 
•  Jury duty panic during concert season 
•  The return of the classic “make fun of Peter” segment 
• Details about the new (currently FREE) composition by Erika Svanoe called "Max Joy" and the story behind the premiere and dedication.

Thank you, commuters, for riding along with us through another season of Beyond ArtLess. See you in Season 5.

Learn More:

Chicago Symphony Orchestra

Pokorny Low Brass Seminar

Credits:

Skirmish and Dance · Jeffrey Reynolds  Big Boy Album ℗ 2005 Summit Records Released on: 2001-02-01.  https://youtu.be/1uSzYq-08Iw?si=XvAfQfuoWTkfCHiF

Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot OFFICIAL. As seen in 2014's COSMOS: A SpaceTime Odyssey Written by Ann Druyan and Steven Soter  Cosmos Studios, Inc., Copyright © 2013 Passage written by Carl Sagan for the book Pale Blue Dot published by Random House,  Copyright ©1994 Democritus Properties, LLChttps://youtu.be/GO5FwsblpT8?si=iMpXuImhgPO9BPD1

Mahler: Symphony No. 2 "Resurrection": V. Finale. Im Tempo des Scherzos Mahler: Symphony No. 2 "Resurrection": V. Finale. Im Tempo des Scherzos · Carol Neblett · Marilyn Horne · Claudio Abbado · Chicago Symphony Orchestra · Chicago Symphony Chorus Claudio Abbado & Chicago Symphony Orchestra ℗ 1977 Deutsche Grammophon GmbH, Berlin Released on: 2017-04-21 https://youtu.be/rJWxpR8liF0?si=FMqBfKdVTXYfKDTz

Gershwin: An American in Paris (Revised F. Campbell-Watson) · James Levine · Chicago Symphony Orchestra The World's Greatest Orchestras - Chicago Symphony Orchestra ℗ 1993 Deutsche Grammophon GmbH, Berlin Released on: 2021-01-09 https://youtu.be/nIw2WJEfZxo?si=qkuxYAcqJq_IzvYy

Saint-Saëns - Symphony No. 3 in C Minor, Op. 78 "Organ" (Chicago Symphony Orchestra) Camille Saint-Saëns - Symphony No. 3 in C Minor, Op. 78 "Organ"Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider, Conductor Cameron Carpenter, Organ Live at Orchestra Hall, December 2022 https://youtu.be/5xrHCJbyG2M?si=CL03JHIsb0KhXRqQ

Partita in A minor for Flute Alone BMV 1013 Provided to YouTube by The Orchard Enterprises Partita in A minor for Flute Alone BMV 1013 · Gene Pokorny Tuba Tracks ℗ 2005 Summit Records Released on: 1995-04-01 https://youtu.be/kQcdD33NXfw?si=cLjI8jGxwXeYxrz7

REGISTER NOW:

2027 BEYOND THE NOTE FESTIVALS  https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/festivals/ensembles/kalahari-1

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2027 W/ ADRIAN SIMS https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2028 W/ OMAR THOMAS https://forms.gle/ZswvHWEZK3HBozXZ7

FREE MUSIC: 

Wisconsin Arts Celebration Project (Marie Douglas “Yellow Birds”) https://dpi.wi.gov/fine-arts/wisconsin-arts-celebration-project-0

Max Joy - Erika Svanoe https://www.erikasvanoe.com/btn.html

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In this episode, we journey through the eclectic world of conducting, education, and cultural authenticity — with a side of humor and some self-deprecating confessions. Our guest, Dr. Anthony Marinello III, is an exemplary musician and educator (and self-professed Commuter) who shares insights on everything from embracing the non-linear career path to the importance of humility, authenticity, and even a mid-career crisis or two. Get your pencils out as Tony shares a treasure trove of great ideas, quotes, books, podcasts, composers and authors to check out. Peter, Chris, and Phil are still trying to spell their own names. 

Key Takeaways:

• Embracing the chaos: Careers don’t follow a straight line—thank goodness! Our guest’s journey from dentistry to music illustrates how the "multiverse" of possibilities keeps life interesting.
• The power of humility and curiosity: Approach students and colleagues with respect and a willingness to learn. Be flexible enough to change your mind and your sound.
• Authenticity over stereotype: True artistry comes from bringing genuine heart and cultural humility, not just imitating or appropriating.
• The importance of mentorship and identity: From LSU to Virginia Tech, mentors shape us immensely, emphasizing that relationships and feedback are the real game-changers.
• The value of risk-taking: Sometimes, the best moments happen when you decide to "go for it" despite fears and uncertainties—like risking a rehearsal or an emotional risk on stage.
• Cultivating community: Whether rehearsing socially or on stage, building trust and respect within groups makes the magic happen—and even a broken window can be a teaching moment.
• The influence of podcasts and psychology: Exploring the human element—feelings, shared stories, and vulnerability—can elevate ensemble performance and leadership.
• The importance of "telling your truth": Show up, do the work, be authentic, and stay flexible in your creative and professional pursuits.

Resources:

• Learn more about Tony here
• Illinois State University
• Work of Adam Grant – Rethink, grow, and challenge your assumptions
• Mark Brackett’s Emotional Intelligence – Cultivating emotional literacy in leadership
• Ira Glass’s Creative Process – The patience, craft, and time needed to develop mastery

REGISTER NOW:

2027 BEYOND THE NOTE FESTIVALS - A few spots remain

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/festivals/ensembles/kalahari-1

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2027 W/ ADRIAN SIMS

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

FREE MUSIC: 

Wisconsin Arts Celebration Project (Marie Douglas “Yellow Birds”)

https://dpi.wi.gov/fine-arts/wisconsin-arts-celebration-project-0

CONSIDER BECOMING A SUBSCRIBER:

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There is no greater a stumble than an Ostrander introduction of a guest.  No helping hands from Gleason or Haberman, either.  Our guest is stranded on an island of poorly phrased questions, out of touch follow-ups and frequent misdirects.  Our guest David Scalise follows a trend of well-informed, star powered teachers.  He handles our poor hosting with ease and a great laugh.  He is part of the fabulous Apple Valley music program in Minnesota.  David leads the award winning Apple Valley R&B band, and many other groups at the high school.  He has had a wide ranging successful teaching career and is the model for meeting students where they are.

Learn more about David & the Apple Valley Program here:

https://www.youtube.com/@davidscalise8985

https://www.avrb.band/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17AopbAxLR8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG9xAxaMae8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MMd3iM-_h8

There are a million of these videos - all great.

REGISTER NOW:

2027 BEYOND THE NOTE FESTIVALS - A few Jazz spots remain!!

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/festivals/ensembles/kalahari-1

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2027 W/ ADRIAN SIMS

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

FREE MUSIC: 

Wisconsin Arts Celebration Project (Marie Douglas “Yellow Birds”)

https://dpi.wi.gov/fine-arts/wisconsin-arts-celebration-project-0

HELP SUPPORT THIS BELOW AVERAGE PODCAST HERE:

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Get ready for an insightful and humor-packed conversation with Dr. Alicia Neal—a leader whose passion for music education, community building, and authentic connection shines through every story. Whether you're a seasoned educator or just a band nerd at heart, this episode offers valuable lessons on fundamentals, inclusion, and the joy of teaching music.

Resources:

• Alicia Neal - Biography
• The Hill We Climb: LGBTQ+ Band and Belonging by Rob Taylor & Eric Lung
• Alan McMurray's profile 
• Howard Hughes - Biography
• University of Colorado Boulder
• Eastern Illinois University Bands

Credits:

Omar Thomas Of Our New Day Begun - "The President's Own" United States Marine Band Performed on February, 26, 2023, at Northern Virginia Community College's Rachel M. Schlesinger Concert Hall and Arts Center in Alexandria, Va. https://www.youtube.com/watchv=uumlUtrAimk&list=RDuumlUtrAimk&start_radio=1

"The Lonely Goatherd" scene from Rodgers & Hammerstein's The Sound of Music (1965). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmmOJx_Hxto

Wycliffe Gordon Trombone Solos Jazz in Marciac 2009 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBTPkNd3D8w

REGISTER NOW:

2027 BEYOND THE NOTE FESTIVALS - FOUR JAZZ SPOTS REMAINING

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/festivals/ensembles/kalahari-1

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2027 W/ ADRIAN SIMS

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

FREE MUSIC: 

Wisconsin Arts Celebration Project (Marie Douglas “Yellow Birds”)

https://dpi.wi.gov/fine-arts/wisconsin-arts-celebration-project-0

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It’s only fitting that our longest episode is dedicated to our beloved friend, mentor, and colleague, Nobuyoshi Yasuda. We spend time exploring his childhood in Japan, his journey to UW–Eau Claire, Peter’s unrelenting bowing, the infamous crashing trombone dinner story, Moomers, and, of course, his upcoming retirement and return to Japan. 

Join us as we say goodbye to a dear friend—and if you don’t yet know Nobu, you’re in for a treat.

Learn more about Nobu here: https://www.uwec.edu/profiles/yasudan

Get ticket's to Nobu's final concert with the Chippewa Valley Symphony here: https://www.pablocenter.org/events/detail/cvso-maestros-finale-conductor-nobuyoshi-yasudas-farewell-concert-964236

REGISTER NOW:

2027 BEYOND THE NOTE FESTIVALS

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/festivals/ensembles/kalahari-1

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2027 W/ ADRIAN SIMS

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

FREE MUSIC: 

Wisconsin Arts Celebration Project (Marie Douglas “Yellow Birds”)

https://dpi.wi.gov/fine-arts/wisconsin-arts-celebration-project-0

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What does it take to cultivate musical excellence, build real connections with students, and navigate the unpredictability of teaching? Malcolm Burke brings a compelling mix of artistry, humility, and humor.

From middle school cello to collegiate conducting, Malcolm’s journey highlights patience, adaptability, and the power of listening. He shares practical insights on motivating students without falling into toxic competition, balancing structure with creativity, and creating meaningful musical experiences at every level. Along the way, we explore how small, human moments shape lasting impact, the influence of mentors and how to carry their lessons forward, and what it looks like to conduct with clarity, emotion, and flexibility while connecting with students from beginners to advanced performers.

This conversation goes beyond music, offering a grounded look at teaching, growth, and embracing the inevitable chaos along the way. Thoughtful, honest, and often funny, it’s a reminder that some of the best lessons come from the messiest moments.

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After 149 episodes of spirited banter, we finally did the unthinkable—we made an episode without it. Don’t get used to it, though. Odds are the pendulum swings back soon and we overcorrect with an episode that’s all banter… and a mildly concerned guest.

Fortunately, that’s not the case this week.

Sam Quinones is a Los Angeles-based journalist and acclaimed author known for his narrative non-fiction work on drug trafficking and immigration. A former L.A. Times reporter, he gained prominence for his in-depth reporting on the U.S. opioid epidemic, most notably in Dreamland: The True Tale of America's Opiate Epidemic and The Least of Us. 

Today, he joins us to talk about his newest book, Perfect Tuba—a narrative nonfiction exploration of band culture, where discipline, collaboration, and long-term commitment offer a powerful counterpoint to a world chasing instant gratification. Through stories of dedicated musicians, iconic instruments, and tight-knit communities, the book reframes the tuba as more than an instrument—it’s a metaphor for purpose, perseverance, and the kind of fulfillment that comes from doing hard things well, together.

GET THE BOOK HERE: THE PERFECT TUBA: Forging Fulfillment from the Bass Horn, Band, and Hard Work

LEARN MORE ABOUT SAM AND SUBSCRIBE TO HIS NEWSLETTER HERE: 

http://www.samquinones.com

samquinones.substack.com

REGISTER NOW:

2027 BEYOND THE NOTE FESTIVALS

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/festivals/ensembles/kalahari-1

COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2027 W/ ADRIAN SIMS

https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission

FREE MUSIC: 

Wisconsin Arts Celebration Project (Marie Douglas “Yellow Birds”)

https://dpi.wi.gov/fine-arts/wisconsin-arts-celebration-project-0

Support the show