Beyond Curious ®

Fun fact about me:

I’ve never been drunk.

Part of it is because I’m chinese and get the “Asian Flush” (aka I feel terrible after one drink)

But the other part is because I really have never had any desire to actually get drunk.

Psychedelics, on the other hand, have a slightly different story for me.

I’ve never done psychedelics, but I am incredibly curious about them.

Tons of my friends and podcast guests have had deeply transformational and spiritual experiences with them… but I’ve never felt a strong desire to actually pull the trigger on an experience.

Enter breathwork.

I kept hearing about this thing called "breathwork" from people I deeply respect (including people who've done serious medicine journeys with ayahuasca, bufo, and other powerful psychedelics) and repeatedly heard them tell me how breathwork can be just as profound, if not more profound than psychedelics.

And the crazy part is it’s literally all through how you breathe.

Then, one of my friends, Collin, introduced me to a world-class breathwork practitioner, Kurtis Lee Thomas.

My first breathwork experience with Kurtis was profound.

I had a cathartic emotional release unlike anything I've ever experienced in my life. Wild bodily sensations. Profound visions. Spiritual tools gifted to me…

I was so blown away that I immediately purchased Kurtis's breathwork membership, and it's now something I'm doing every week… and sharing with everyone I can.

In this episode, we dive into…

• What breathwork actually is and why deep diaphragmatic breathwork can create experiences as profound (or more profound) than psychedelic medicine
• How to identify and remove your own "energy clots" and why doing so could unlock breakthroughs across every area of your life.
• Kurtis's journey from running an alcohol company and identifying as not-spiritual… to having his entire worldview cracked open after his brother was murdered in a homicide

This modality has been profound for me, and if you’re at all curious how to expand your consciousness by using your breath, you’ll want to check this one out!

Introduction to Beyond Curious and today's guest, Kurtis Lee Thomas. Brandon Fong introduces breathwork practitioner Kurtis Lee Thomas by sharing his own transformative experiences with deep diaphragmatic breathwork. Before the conversation even begins, Brandon explains how a single breathwork session produced what he describes as psychedelic-level emotional breakthroughs, setting the stage for an exploration of healing, consciousness, spirituality, and the unseen dimensions of human potential.

Brandon shares why this conversation is unlike any previous episode, recounting his own life-changing experiences with breathwork and previewing an exploration of healing, emotional release, spirituality, and consciousness.

Fresh from the experience, Brandon describes intense physical sensations including locked hands, involuntary body movements, emotional catharsis, profound crying, and an overwhelming feeling of release as he asks Kurtis to explain what actually happened inside his body.

Kurtis unpacks why the body experiences tetany, shaking, emotional purging, and physical releases during breathwork, describing the body as a living library that stores unresolved emotional experiences until the breath creates the conditions for them to finally leave.

Brandon reflects on how breathwork rapidly transported him into altered states that previously required long meditation sessions, while Kurtis compares breathwork with ayahuasca and other psychedelic ceremonies, explaining why he believes breathwork can be equally profound while remaining accessible and substance-free.

After years of chronic stomach issues, countless doctors, and extensive healing modalities around the world, Kurtis shares how a single breathwork session eliminated the energetic blockage that traditional medicine couldn't identify, ultimately leading him to dedicate his life to teaching the practice.

He vividly remembers watching strangers around him begin crying before unexpectedly experiencing his own powerful emotional release. Days later, he realized longstanding physical symptoms had vanished, his clarity had dramatically improved, and his entire outlook on life had shifted.

Kurtis introduces his concept of "energy clots," explaining how unresolved emotional energy can silently affect every area of life—from health and creativity to finances and relationships—and shares how the idea became the foundation of his TED Talk.

Kurtis recounts the shocking encounter with a spirit medium who claimed his deceased brother wanted to speak with him, launching a journey that challenged everything he previously believed about consciousness and life after death.

As the medium reveals deeply personal details that only Kurtis and his late brother could have known—including information later confirmed by law enforcement—Kurtis describes the experience that permanently transformed his worldview and opened him to exploring spirituality.

Following his awakening, Kurtis explains how he became fascinated with consciousness, shamanic traditions, healing practices, synchronicities, intuition, and humanity's deeper origins, embracing an entirely new relationship with curiosity.

Brandon pushes into unfamiliar territory as Kurtis shares his perspective on extraterrestrial civilizations, consciousness beyond Earth, why many people resist these ideas, and why he believes humanity is approaching a period of greater disclosure and expanded awareness.

Kurtis describes participating in contact protocols designed to initiate peaceful interactions with non-human intelligences, sharing why these firsthand experiences convinced him humanity is not alone and discussing what those experiences meant for his own understanding of reality.

• Breathwork Detox – Kurtis Lee Thomas's official website, featuring live breathwork sessions, training programs, and resources.
• Breathwork Detox
• Breath Club – Kurtis's guided online breathwork membership and community (available through Breathwork Detox).
• Breath Club & Live Events
• Breathwork Detox Teacher Certification – Information about Kurtis's Breathwork Detox facilitator training program.
• Breathwork Detox Teacher Training
• Kurtis Lee Thomas on Instagram (@manfromthestars) – Follow Kurtis for breathwork education, spiritual insights, and upcoming events.
• @manfromthestars
• Breathwork Detox: How to Thrive in the Age of Anxiety – Kurtis's book on using breathwork to reduce stress, anxiety, and improve well-being.
• Breathwork Detox (Book)

Ever heard of a chicken so productive it turns homicidal?

Or an NBA player who changed the course of a season… without having impressive stats?

Me neither, until I sat down (again) with an experience designer I deeply respect, Jon Levy.

Fifteen years ago, Jon founded “The Influencers”, a secret dining experience and community, whose participants include more than 4000 leaders across industry, ranging from Nobel laureates, Olympians, and celebrities, to executives, editors-in-chief, and royalty.

What I admire about Jon’s work is the guy walks the walk.

His NYT bestselling book, You’re Invited, reveals his “secret sauce” of creating deep connection and trust that has made his dinners so successful.

This time, we’re diving into his brand new book, Team Intelligence: How Brilliant Leaders Unlock Collective Genius, and what it really takes to unlock collective genius.

We talk about…

• What homicidal super chickens can teach us about team dysfunction
• Why your most important team members might be the ones no one’s measuring or rewarding
• The ONE universal characteristic you need to be a leader that most books or business schools don’t talk about.

If you’re a leader ready to unlock the collective intelligence of your team or community, this one is for you!

00:00:02 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today’s guest, Jon Levy.

Brandon Fong welcomes listeners back and reintroduces Jon Levy—experience designer, founder of The Influencers, and bestselling author. Brandon previews the episode’s key themes: homicidal “super chickens,” overlooked team members who drive real results, and the single defining trait of leadership, all in the context of Jon’s new book Team Intelligence.

00:03:24 - Revisiting the “Lost Boy” philosophy in fatherhood.

Jon reflects on how his Peter Pan-inspired identity has evolved since becoming a father. He shares how parenting has deepened his curiosity and shifted his default response to “yes” whenever possible—challenging unnecessary social etiquette and encouraging exploration unless something is truly dangerous.

00:07:34 - Curiosity in action: forklifts, Play-Doh, and childlike wonder.

Jon describes his insatiable curiosity—from interrogating forklift operators about tensile strength to letting his kids rub Play-Doh on his belly just to explore a novel sensation. He highlights how parenting has amplified his appreciation for discovery in everyday moments.

00:14:20 - Why most advice doesn’t work (and the Warren Buffett myth).

Jon recounts a story about Warren Buffett allegedly giving the “25-5 Rule” for success—only to later deny ever using such a system. This leads into Jon’s broader point: we often attribute tidy frameworks to successful people, but their real success rarely follows universally replicable formulas.

00:16:24 - The one true characteristic of a leader.

After researching leadership for three years, Jon shares a surprising conclusion: there are no universal leadership traits across institutions or iconic figures. The only consistent definition? Leaders have followers. People follow those who make them feel a compelling future is possible—even if they’re imperfect.

00:20:46 - Borrowed answers vs. authentic alignment.

Brandon and Jon discuss the tension between learning from successful people and blindly copying them. Jon challenges Brandon to articulate his own North Star, reinforcing that success stems from aligning with your unique strengths rather than replicating someone else’s “super skills.”

00:22:57 - Freedom over scale: choosing impact on your own terms.

Jon candidly shares why he chose not to scale The Influencers into a massive organization like TED or YPO. He values creative control and personal freedom over prestige and financial upside, emphasizing self-awareness as the ultimate compass for decision-making.

00:26:52 - How Team Intelligence was born.

Jon explains his writing process for the book—starting with leadership as an “evergreen” topic, then discovering that talent and skill alone aren’t enough. He structured the book as a journey of inquiry, uncovering how leadership and team dynamics intersect.

00:35:46 - The “Too Much Talent” problem and the rise of homicidal chickens.

Jon introduces the “super chicken” experiment: when chickens were bred solely for productivity, they became violent and destructive. In contrast, breeding entire cooperative groups led to dramatically better collective outcomes. The lesson: optimizing individuals can undermine the team.

00:42:37 - The power of “glue players” who multiply performance.

Jon explains research on “glue players”—team members who amplify others’ performance by a factor of 1.6. These individuals may not shine statistically but profoundly elevate group outcomes.

00:44:26 - Shane Battier: the “no stats” all-star.

Jon dives into the NBA story of Shane Battier, whose plus-minus rating was elite despite minimal traditional stats. Battier’s high emotional intelligence, team-first mentality, and proactive preparation (including memorizing opponents’ tendencies) allowed him to dramatically improve team performance and help the Miami Heat win championships.

00:48:47 - Measuring what’s useful, not what’s easy.

Brandon connects the Battier example to the “Moneyball” principle: organizations often measure what’s visible rather than what truly drives results. They discuss how employee happiness, emotional intelligence, and invisible contributions often predict success better than traditional metrics.

00:51:26 - How to identify the “Shanes” in your organization.

Jon outlines practical strategies for spotting glue players: test for emotional intelligence, ask team members who they turn to for support, and observe who goes above and beyond for the team. The same names will surface repeatedly—those trusted connectors who create psychological safety.

00:59:38 - AI, faux emotional intelligence, and the future of leadership.

Jon predicts that AI may soon coach leaders in real-time on emotional cues, potentially boosting “faux” emotional intelligence. However, he warns that reduced social exposure and increased remote work may erode our natural interpersonal skills if we’re not intentional.

01:02:00 - Where to find Jon and his work.

Jon shares that Team Intelligence is available wherever books are sold and invites listeners to explore more about his work and community experiences.

Links and Resources:

• Team Intelligence: How Brilliant Leaders Unlock Collective Genius by Jon Levy
• You're Invited: The Art and Science of Connection, Trust, and Belonging by Jon Levy
• The 2 AM Principle: Discover the Science of Adventure by Jon Levy
• The Influencers (Jon Levy’s secret dining experience community)

It was a normal Saturday morning.

Alphonso was 17 years old, sitting on his mom's porch in the summer of 1985, eating breakfast and talking about life when a police car rolled up.

The officer told his mom it was nothing serious…

They were just canvassing the neighborhood and wanted to ask Alphonso a few questions.

12 hours of interrogation later, they slid a document in front of him and said his mom was waiting in the lobby… all he had to do was sign and he could go home with her.

He signed it.

The next morning, he learned he'd been charged with first-degree murder.

Alphonso was sentenced to 105 years in prison for a murder he had absolutely nothing to do with.

What followed is legitimately one of the craziest ones I’ve heard on the show.

Here’s a tiny teaser…

Alphonso was thrown onto a "high profile tier" with serial rapists and convicted murderers… grown men twice his size.

After surviving an attack from a 300lb predator, Alphonso defended himself and was sent to solitary confinement for 5 years.

He was actually grateful to be there, because he didn’t have to defend himself anymore.

Then, one day, a prison chaplain named Emil started showing up at his cell.

Alphonso, full of rage at a system that had stolen his life, would fill a cup with his own urine and throw it in the chaplain's face.

Week after week.

Every time, the chaplain would simply wipe himself off and say, "Alphonso, I love you. And so does God."

After a couple of months of this, the chaplain showed up one day with a chair and an extra towel. Alphonso threw the urine on him again. The chaplain wiped his face, sat down in front of the cell, and said:

"Why are you angry?"

In Alphonso's own words: "He loved the hate away from me."

The chaplain became the first person in over a year to look Alphonso in the eye and say, "I believe you."

He taught Alphonso (who couldn't read at 17) how to read using children's coloring books. He brought him a Bible. And from that moment in solitary confinement, Alphonso began to envision a completely different life.

Fast forward 32 years.

On February 14, 2017 Alphonso was released from prison with the help of the Wisconsin Innocence Project.

He had appeared before the parole board 21 times and refused to accept responsibility for something he didn't do.

Crazy… and me writing this doesn’t even come close to doing the story justice. I can’t WAIT for you to listen.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• How Alphonso transformed the worst injustice imaginable into a life of unconditional love, forgiveness (including forgiving himself), and service.
• The mindset he used to refuse to accept the label of "offender" for 32 years… including the small daily acts of protest that kept his identity intact when the entire system was trying to crush it
• What he's building now through Unfragile Farm, which is a place where formerly incarcerated people can heal, find work, and experience the kind of love that loved the hate away from Alphonso

If you're someone who believes in the redemptive power of love, forgiveness, and the human spirit's ability to transform unimaginable pain into wisdom… please don't miss this one!

00:00 – Introduction to Beyond Curious and today’s guest, Alphonso James.

Brandon Fong welcomes listeners and introduces Alphonso James, teasing a jaw-dropping story of wrongful conviction, prison survival, and radical forgiveness. He previews Alphonso’s 105-year sentence for a murder he did not commit, his 32 years in prison, and his eventual release on Valentine’s Day 2017 with the help of the Wisconsin Innocence Project.

00:04:25 – Alphonso’s presence and the story behind his unforgettable hugs.

Brandon reflects on meeting Alphonso in person and describes his deeply intentional hugs. Alphonso shares how, after solitary confinement, an elderly nun hugged him in prison—an experience so transformative it inspired him to “love the pain away” from others.

00:08:04 – Addressing the wounded 8-year-old within.

Alphonso explains how childhood molestation and not being believed shaped his inner world. He describes “peeling back the layers” of trauma to reconnect with and love the frightened 8-year-old boy inside him—a pivotal step in his healing.

00:15:42 – July 27, 1985: The arrest that changed everything.

Alphonso recounts being 17 years old, eating breakfast with his mother, when police took him in “just for questioning.” After a 12-hour interrogation and signing a document he couldn’t read, he was charged with first-degree murder. Within four months, he was tried as an adult and sentenced to 105 years.

00:30:43 – Entering maximum security: violence, fear, and survival.

Thrown onto a high-profile tier with murderers and serial rapists, Alphonso describes witnessing a man commit suicide on his first day, being assaulted for claiming innocence, and living in constant readiness for violence. He eventually stabs a man who threatened him, resulting in five years of solitary confinement.

00:37:34 – Solitary confinement: confronting himself in the silence.

Strapped down in a “five-point” restraint cell, isolated and stripped of dignity, Alphonso explains how solitary forced him to stop “running” from himself. With no distractions left, he began confronting his trauma and searching for meaning.

00:39:51 – Throwing urine at the chaplain—and being met with love.

Consumed by anger, Alphonso repeatedly throws urine on the prison chaplain during weekly visits. Instead of retaliation, the chaplain responds, “I love you, and so does God.” Week after week, he returns—bringing towels and eventually a chair—until Alphonso breaks and opens up.

00:42:18 – “I believe you.” The moment everything changed.

When Alphonso tells the chaplain he is innocent, the chaplain says he believes him—the first person ever to do so. The chaplain begins teaching him to read using children’s books and coloring pages. Alphonso’s life shifts from punishment to purpose.

00:47:30 – Discovering identity beyond prison walls.

After years of introspection, Alphonso answers the question “Who am I?” He describes journaling for 32 years, confronting insecurity and self-hatred, and discovering his essence beyond trauma, beyond his body, and beyond the prison label.

00:55:43 – A suicide attempt and a spiritual awakening.

The day before the chaplain’s breakthrough visit, Alphonso attempts to hang himself in solitary confinement. He vividly describes seeing two possible futures at his grave—and feeling a familiar hand lift him back to life. From that moment, he commits to sharing his story.

01:09:11 – Returning to general population transformed.

After five years in solitary, Alphonso reenters prison changed. At Prison Fellowship, a nun hugs him—and the shanks hidden in his pants fall to the floor. He throws them away. He later tests at post–high school level, scoring among the highest in Wisconsin’s prison system.

01:16:45 – Meeting Viktor Frankl and discovering shared purpose.

Alphonso recounts meeting Viktor Frankl, Holocaust survivor and author of Man’s Search for Meaning. Frankl encourages him to “hold on,” reinforcing Alphonso’s belief that suffering carries purpose and that meaning can be chosen even in the darkest places.

01:39:12 – Unfragile Farm and building second chances.

Now free, Alphonso shares his vision for Unfragile Farm—a healing space offering employment partnerships, mentorship, sheltering support, and personal development intensives for formerly incarcerated individuals. He also discusses his upcoming book and reflection journal.

01:45:16 – 21 parole hearings and unwavering truth.

Terry reveals that Alphonso faced 21 parole hearings over 19 years. He could have been released at any time by admitting guilt—but he refused to lie, even as loved ones passed away. His commitment to truth ultimately led to freedom.

01:47:17 – A call to share the story.

Brandon closes by urging listeners to share this episode with someone who needs hope. Alphonso expresses deep gratitude, emphasizing love, truth, and purpose as the foundations of his life today.

• Alphonso James website
• Wisconsin Innocence Project – The organization that helped secure Alphonso’s release.
• Unfragile Farm – Alphonso’s healing and mentorship initiative for formerly incarcerated individuals.
• Prison Fellowship – Faith-based prison outreach program involved in Alphonso’s transformation.
• Watchman Nee – The Spiritual Man – Spiritual text Alphonso studied during incarceration.

I told Eric Ries that I felt like puking after reading his new book, Incorruptible.

Here's why:

In The Matrix, right after Neo takes the red pill from Morpheus, Neo is shown the truth for the first time.

Neo's reaction is pure overload and he starts barfing all over the floor.

In Incorruptible, Eric shares hard truths about how organizations are built… and why success itself so often turns companies against the people and principles that made them worth building in the first place.

The reality is SHOCKING and, just like Neo, being shown the truth that bluntly was tough to swallow.

But the book isn't all doom and gloom…

It's mixed in with hope, beauty, and a CLEAR roadmap of a new way forward to protect the soul of companies we entrepreneurs work so hard to build.

The book blew my mind and gave me a whole new level of permission to not only build companies, but entirely new Civic Infrastructures (my favorite concept out of the new book) that create civilization level change.

Since reading it, I've been talking about it non-stop to everyone I'm in contact with.

Eric has spent his career walking founders from idea → IPO. And he kept watching the same heartbreaking pattern play out over and over:

Visionary entrepreneurs would build something they loved, sell it or take it public… and then watch their baby get gutted by short-term thinking, fiduciary "duties," and investors squeezing every last drop of value out of it until there was nothing left of the original soul.

So Eric wrote the book on how to build a company that can't be corrupted, and how we might design entirely new civic infrastructure for the world that's coming.

A few things we unpacked on the episode:

• Why nearly every founder unknowingly signs away their company's soul on day one… and the single line in your corporate charter that makes you legally vulnerable to selling to the worst possible buyer
• Eric’s radical redefinition of "profit": What it actually means to be a for-profit company when you account for all the value you create AND destroy across time, space, and human lives
• How to design a "spiritual holding company": the 100-year-old structure that protects the soul of a business across generations, so the mission you built it for can never be gutted by short-term decision making

Brandon welcomes listeners and introduces today’s guest, Eric Ries, entrepreneur and bestselling author of The Lean Startup. Eric returns with a bold new vision in his book Incorruptible, challenging conventional corporate governance and proposing new systems to protect the soul of companies. Brandon shares his visceral reaction to the book — comparing it to taking the red pill in The Matrix — and previews key ideas including fiduciary traps, redefining profit, and building “civic infrastructure.”

00:00:02 – Brandon opens the episode and introduces Eric Ries, highlighting the significance of Incorruptible and the urgency of its message for entrepreneurs navigating today’s rapidly changing world.

00:00:34 – Eric recounts the wild reactions he received when he told people he wanted to build a new stock exchange. He compares the idea to “building a second moon,” emphasizing how institutional systems feel untouchable — until you realize they are human-made and can be remade.

00:06:18 – Eric shares the behind-the-scenes story of launching the Long-Term Stock Exchange. After years of resistance, he discovers that starting a stock exchange ultimately comes down to filing a 250-page form — revealing how intimidating systems are often less mystical than they appear.

00:09:02 – Brandon brings up Eric’s concept of civic infrastructure. Eric explains how invisible institutional systems — from stock exchanges to product standards — quietly shape society, defining what is possible in markets and culture.

00:12:00 – Eric explores how everyday transactions (like buying a banana) depend on vast, invisible networks of institutions. He argues that when institutions fail or get disrupted, new ones rush in — but without intentional values, societal damage can follow.

00:21:10 – Eric introduces a thought experiment: Would you sell your company to the most evil corporation imaginable? Most founders say “hell no.” But Eric reveals a shocking truth — corporate charters often legally require boards to accept the highest bidder due to fiduciary duty.

00:24:05 – Eric tells the true story of Vectura, a healthcare company forced to sell to Philip Morris. Despite public outrage and internal resistance, the board followed shareholder primacy doctrine — leading to massive value destruction.

00:27:19 – Brandon and Eric unpack how a single line in most corporate charters — “any lawful purpose” — enables courts to interpret a company’s purpose as maximizing shareholder value, even when that contradicts its mission statement.

00:30:16 – Eric radically redefines profit. Through vivid examples (Ponzi schemes, toxic waste dumping, murder-for-hire hypotheticals), he demonstrates how conventional accounting ignores deferred and displaced harm. He proposes a new definition: profit as the maximization of human flourishing.

00:37:25 – Eric shares the story of Devoted Health, a rapidly growing healthcare company that defines its product as love. By aligning incentives around genuine care for customers, they create what Eric calls a “virtuous performance loop.”

00:41:55 – Eric introduces the concept of the spiritual holding company, using Novo Nordisk as a case study. Founded over 100 years ago, its structure places a nonprofit foundation above the for-profit entity — protecting mission across generations.

00:46:48 – Eric warns against delaying governance decisions. “It’s always too early until it’s too late.” He explains how founders are repeatedly advised to postpone protective structures — only to lose control once public or acquired.

00:52:06 – A powerful statistic: 76% of founders regret selling their company within one year. Eric reflects on why financial success without mission integrity often leads to emptiness and disillusionment.

00:53:22 – Brandon and Eric discuss the idea that companies have souls. Eric emphasizes that corporate governance should be seen as preventative discipline — not a one-time decision — to protect mission over the long term.

00:53:58 – Eric shares where to find Incorruptible, including bonus materials, implementation guides, and a secret chapter available at the book’s website. He also encourages listeners to support local independent bookstores.

00:55:31 – Eric closes with a powerful reminder: systemic change doesn’t only require policy shifts. Every technique in the book can be implemented today — by founders, leaders, and even consumers who choose where to direct their economic power.

• Incorruptible: Why Good Companies Go Bad and How Great Companies Stay Great by Eric Ries
• Incorruptible book website (bonus chapter, implementation guides, courses): https://www.incorruptible.co
• The Lean Startup by Eric Ries
• Long-Term Stock Exchange (LTSE)

It's been just about 3 months since I last published an episode of Beyond Curious…

I’ve missed you guys!!

This pause has been a beautiful reset for me, there's a LOT going on behind the scenes, including some projects I can't wait to tell you about soon.

But today I'm excited to announce that I'm BACK with a few episodes that have made a profound impact on me since I’ve recorded them.

Today is a mini preview, because over the coming weeks I'm releasing 4 episodes bi-weekly, starting May 26th.

Here's the schedule:

🗓️ May 26th: NYT Bestselling Author of "The Lean Startup" On Building Companies That Create Civilization-Level Impact & Designing Organizations That Endure For 100+ Years… w/ Eric Reis

I told Eric that I felt like puking after reading his new book, Incorruptible.

Here's why:

In the Matrix, right after Neo takes the red pill from Morpheus, Neo is shown the truth for the first time.

Neo's reaction is pure overload and he starts barfing all over the floor.

In Incorruptible, Eric shares hard truths about how organizations are built... and why success itself so often turns companies against the people and principles that made them worth building in the first place.

The reality is SHOCKING and, just like Neo, being shown the truth that bluntly was tough to swallow.

But the book isn't all doom and gloom...

It's mixed in with hope, beauty, and a CLEAR roadmap of a new way forward to protect the soul of companies we entrepreneurs work so hard to build.

The book blew my mind and gave me a whole new level of permission to not only build companies, but entirely new Civic Infrastructures (my favorite concept out of the new book) that create civilization level change.

Since reading it, I've been talking about it non-stop to everyone I'm in contact with and I'm so excited for this book to be put into the hands of as many people as possible.

🗓️ June 9th: Choosing Unconditional Love & Forgiveness After Spending 32 Years In Prison For A Crime He Didn't Commit… w/ Alphonso James

Alphonso was 17 years old, sitting on his mom's porch in the summer of 1985, eating breakfast and talking about life when a police car rolled up.

The officer told his mom it was nothing serious…

They were just canvassing the neighborhood and wanted to ask Alphonso a few questions.

12 hours of interrogation later, they slid a document in front of him and said his mom was waiting in the lobby… all he had to do was sign and he could go home with her.

He signed it.

The next morning, he learned he'd been charged with first-degree murder.

Alphonso was sentenced to 105 years in prison for a murder he had absolutely nothing to do with.

What followed is legitimately one of the craziest ones I’ve heard on the show. This one you can’t miss…

🗓️ June 23rd: What Homicidal Super Chickens & No-Stat NBA All-Stars Have To Do With Unlocking Team Intelligence… w/ Jon Levy

Jon was on the show back in Episode 122 and is one of my favorite thinkers in the world of relationships.

He's the founder of The Influencers — a secret dining experience and community with Nobel laureates, Olympians, celebrities, and executives.

This time, we’re diving into his brand new book, Team Intelligence: How Brilliant Leaders Unlock Collective Genius, and what it really takes to unlock collective genius.

Jon is hilarious.

We talk about…

• What homicidal super chickens can teach us about team dysfunction
• Why your most important team members might be the ones no one’s measuring or rewarding
• The ONE universal characteristic you need to be a leader that most books or business schools don’t talk about.

If you’re a leader ready to unlock the collective intelligence of your team or community, this one is for you!

🗓️ July 7th: How To Achieve Psychedelic-Level Breakthroughs & Remove "Energy Clots" From Your Body… Just By Breathing… w/ Kurtis Lee Thomas

Quick context:

I've never been drunk in my life and have never done any form of psychedelics.

But I'd kept hearing about breathwork being a really profound experience — especially from people who'd done ayahuasca, bufo, and other alternative medicines.

So when my friend Collin introduced me to Kurtis, I attended one of his sessions and was blown away. I’m a superfan and have now turned breathwork into a multiple times per week practice and invested in joining Kurtis’ breathwork membership and am LOVING it.

As for the future of the show…

I'd still love to experiment with another big series (similar to The 4% Files) where I weave bigger threads together, but I'm not actively working on that yet.

In the meantime, when I really want to interview someone in the format you're used to, I'll do it and release it when it feels right.

I'll see you May 26th with Eric Ries 🙂

Crazy, but this past Saturday, I turned 30!

I’ve been dreaming about how I wanted to celebrate my 30th birthday for ~3 years now.

It all started when my friend, Vlad Solovetski, and I were talking about my vision for Beyond Curious, right when I had re-branded.

He reacted by saying, “Maybe one day you’re going to have a Curiosity Island.”

My response?

“FUCK yeah I’m going to have a Curiosity Island!”

Want to see the actual video? Here’s the moment when it happened! Thankfully I was recording so I had this captured…

Several months later, I was at Dr. Benjamin Hardy’s live event when I set a goal to celebrate my 30th birthday by hosting a Curiosity Island event.

Well, that just happened.

It’s surreal, because it was everything I could have ever dreamed of and MORE.

But beyond making this vision a reality, I also wanted to be incredibly intentional about who I’m choosing to become in this next chapter of my life.

And because of this level of intentionality, I’ve decided to completely revamp the Beyond Curious podcast.

In this episode, I’ll share three things:

1. The story of how my 3 year Curiosity Island vision came true by taking you behind the scenes of everything that happened at one of the most transformational moments of my life.
2. How I’M evolving in this next decade
3. HOW the show is evolving to match my own evolution (Hint: I’m shifting away from a weekly interview style show 😮)

This was a FUN and unique episode, because I intentionally recorded it as a conversation between just you and I…

Because my wife, Leah, and I booked an extra night in the resort where we hosted Curiosity Island, I started by recording the episode while on the beach.

I ran out of time, so I continued in the airport, and eventually finished on the airplane (where I’m writing this now!).

I can’t wait for you to listen. This is a special one ❤️

👉 Access The 4% Files Treasure Map HERE To Get A Detailed Recap & Summary Of This Series!

👉 Access all of the bonus material from the 4% Files right here

This is it. The GRAND Finale.

It’s the fireworks show where you THINK it’s over…

Then there’s another grand finale on top of the grand finale.

For this final episode of the 4% files, I’m curating clips from 25+ episodes and organizing them into 2 buckets:

1. Stories
2. Strategy

Within the stories section, I’ve curated the most mind blowing and transformational stories shared on Beyond Curious. These are the stories that stretch your mind as to what’s possible as a human being.

You’ll get glimpses of:

1. How Andre Norman went from running a $3m/mo heroin, prostitution, & extortion operation while serving a 100-year prison sentence… to becoming a Harvard fellow, author, speaker & changing the criminal justice system
2. How Sean Swarner — a 2x cancer survivor with one lung — summited Everest, the 7 summits + the north & south poles…
3. How Trevor G Blake — a NYT bestselling author & Physicist — used “Mind Movies” to have MULTIPLE 9-figure exits with ZERO employees
4. How YOU can preserve your family legacy, heal previous wounds, and re-write your history by interviewing your loved ones… pulling on an interview I did with my late grandfather, Kenny Fong
5. How Marty Cooper changed the world by inventing the cell phone.
6. How Hal Elrod used “The 5 Minute Rule” to recover after being hit by a truck going 70 MPH, breaking 11 bones, suffering permanent brain damage, and being clinically dead for 6 minutes.

But that, my friends, is just the warmup, because next we dive into the highest leverage strategies that have created disproportionate results in my life.

The first section starts with Relationship Strategies.

You’ll learn…

1. From NYT bestselling author, Jon Levy, on how to leverage the “IKEA Effect” to build transformational relationships (I’ve been using this for 12+ years and it’s seriously changed my life)
2. What ONE quote my first ever mentor, Brenda Campbell, shared with me at 17 that serves as the foundation to building relationships that unlocks results while putting the relationship first.
3. From the bestselling author of Hooked & Indistractible, Nir Eyal, how to leverage “Psychological Reactance” to increase the likelihood of someone supporting you.
4. How to get the “Green Light” before starting a conversation to far increase the likelihood of a conscious and positive interaction from my dear friend, Jem Fuller.
5. How Blake Fly landed $50,000 worth of speaking gigs from a Frosted Flakes cereal box, and how you can leverage creative outreach to bring smiles to people’s faces while creating big results
6. How to build relationships at SCALE by unlocking the collective intelligence of a group by using “Purpose Questions” from one of the best facilitators in the world, Jon Berghoff

Next, we dive into Identity & Belief Strategies — how to upgrade the most foundational elements of your being to create ripple effects in every area of your life.

You’ll learn:

1. From the author of The Core Value Equation, Darius Mirshahzadeh, how to make your core values FUNCTIONAL… and how those values shape the internal conversations in your mind and the external conversations in your business that ultimately define your reality.
2. From leadership strategist Susan Drum, how to leverage music as a tool to transmute negative emotional states and dissolve limiting beliefs so you can consciously shift your identity.
3. From performance coach Todd Herman, how to intentionally create an Alter Ego to access parts of yourself that already exist use a physical totem to trigger that identity shift on command.
4. From the founder of the Octopus Movement, Perry Knoppert, how to embrace an identity as a non linear octopus to break out of linear thinking and unlock creative solutions that can change the world
5. From Oxford quantum physicist, cosmologist, & former $500m international finance director Jude Currivan, how we have scientifically proven that the universe is “non locally unified” and how that understanding can shift your fundamental understanding of reality
6. From the creator of the Energy Operating System and former Disney producer, Susanne Goldstein, how your “Human” is fundamentally different from your consciousness… and how learning to operate from both simultaneously changes how you experience challenges, emotions, and growth.

Then, finally, we dive into timeless Business Strategies, with the intention of leveraging your business to elevate your consciousness and create a deep impact in the world.

You’ll learn:

1. From serial entrepreneur Mike Koenigs, the fastest path to making a billion dollars and how raising your prices can radically transform your identity while amplifying your impact, and counterintuitively create a SIMPLER business model.
2. From Archangel founder Giovanni Marsico, the fundamental mindset shift required to serve people who are “more successful” than you by owning your value and gift you can provide to others.
3. From the founder of 1-800-GOT-JUNK?, Brian Scudamore, how an Italian gelato experience shifted his entire company's branding, and how to leverage your brand to become a magnet to attract the exact customers, partners, and opportunities you most want to serve.
4. From former Chief Business Officer of Google X, Mo Gawdat, how to think about the next era of business when AI is about to surpass human intelligence.
5. From entrepreneur John Ratliff, how to apply “Moneyball” and “Rembrandt in the Attic” thinking to identify the metrics that actually move the needle and uncover the hidden assets that dramatically increase your company’s value in the eyes of a strategic buyer.
6. And from my time learning alongside Sir Richard Branson on Necker Island, how being unapologetically yourself can be a business strategy that turns your brand into a magnet for collaborating with the world’s most interesting people.

Enjoy the fireworks, and THANK YOU for being on this journey of the 4% files!

00:00:00 – Brandon Fong opens Part 11 of the 4% Files series, announcing the “grand finale” where he extracts the most transformational insights from over 334 hours of podcast conversations. He explains that this episode will feature more than 20 guests and the most “spectacular fireworks” of the entire series.

00:00:52 – Brandon explains the structure of the episode: two main buckets — Story and Strategy. Stories expand our imagination of what’s possible. Strategy is divided into identity & beliefs, relationships, and business. He reiterates that imagination precedes creation — you can’t build what you can’t first conceive.

00:02:00 – He addresses listeners jumping in at Part 11 first, introduces the “Treasure Map” in the description, and clarifies that the entire 4% Files series exists to help people grow into the “next truest version” of themselves — not because they’re broken, but because they’re choosing expansion.

00:04:36 – Brandon shares how difficult it was to curate these clips because every guest impacted him. The mission of this episode is to distill only the highest-impact insights rather than publish a 334-hour mega-episode.

Brandon introduces Andre Norman, who once robbed cocaine dealers, led gang operations from prison generating $3M per month, and faced a 100-year sentence — before eventually becoming a Harvard fellow and criminal justice reform advocate.

00:06:40 – Andre recounts how he could walk through prison checkpoints as a “boss” and demand a hamburger from the kitchen staff. When confronted by the kitchen director, he calmly explains that he could kill him, serve 10 years in solitary, and still return — revealing the brutal power dynamics inside prison.

00:10:26 – Andre explains he had committed mentally to being in prison forever. Nothing could break him — except being forcibly tranquilized with Thorazine, which left him terrified because it stripped him of control.

00:12:07 – He describes his “Wizard of Oz moment” — realizing the power structure he was fighting to lead was an illusion. After years pursuing the top gang position, he discovered it was meaningless.

00:14:29 – Instead of pursuing “freedom,” which statistically led back to prison, he pursued success. He decided to attend Harvard because successful people don’t return to prison. He committed 24 years to that goal — teaching himself to read, studying law, and rebuilding himself — eventually becoming a Harvard fellow.

00:15:39 – Brandon reflects on the radical identity shift required to go from prison gang leader to reform advocate — proof that identity is malleable.

Brandon introduces Sean Swarner, diagnosed with cancer at 13 (given 3 months to live), then again at 16 (14 days to live), losing a lung — yet later summiting Everest, completing the Seven Summits, and reaching both poles.

00:17:18 – Sean explains how he handled people telling him Everest was impossible: “What I say is about me. What you hear is about you.” He reframes doubt as projection and uses negativity as fuel.

00:18:57 – He describes surviving a violent storm at Camp Two while fellow climber Peter dies after falling 3,000 feet. Sean recounts seeing blood streaked across the ice — confronting mortality directly.

00:20:40 – He calls his parents from base camp after media reports an “anonymous climber dies,” clarifying he’s still alive. He struggles with survivor’s guilt — questioning why he lived when others didn’t.

00:23:39 – Sean explains mental preparation: visualizing difficult moments before they happen. When he passed the site of Peter’s death, he had already processed it emotionally beforehand.

00:25:42 – At the summit, he unfurls a flag covered in names of people touched by cancer, carried over his heart the entire climb. Everest wasn’t about him — it was about everyone fighting cancer.

Brandon introduces Marty Cooper, the father of the cell phone, who challenged AT&T’s monopoly by building the first handheld cellular device in 3 months.

00:29:00 – Marty explains that in 1973 there were no cordless phones, no internet, no personal computers — and Motorola had to build entirely new frequency systems, antennas, and circuitry to make a portable phone possible.

00:33:23 – He details the technical impossibilities: creating two-way communication in a handheld device, miniaturizing components larger than the final phone, and designing integrated circuits capable of hundreds of channels.

00:36:03 – The night before the first public call, engineers are soldering parts in the Elizabeth Taylor suite at the Hilton Hotel. The phones keep failing.

00:38:06 – On April 3, 1973, Marty steps into the street and makes the first public cell phone call — to his competitor at Bell Labs. His only thought: “I hope this damn thing works.”

00:42:01 – Marty explains they knew someday everyone would have a cell phone — even predicting a world where not answering meant you’d died. Today, there are more cell phones than people.

Brandon introduces Trevor G. Blake, physicist, entrepreneur, New York Times bestselling author, cancer survivor — who built and sold nine-figure companies with zero employees, working less than five hours per day.

00:45:19 – Trevor shares how a physics teacher told him not to bother taking the final exam after scoring 33%. He independently studied advanced quantum physics in the library and aced the exam — expanding beyond imposed limits.

00:47:52 – Diagnosed with late-stage cancer at 28, he rejected the prognosis and used visualization and intention-setting tools rooted in physics.

00:50:17 – After a CEO told him he wasn’t capable of running a company, Trevor created a written intention: “I am a brilliant and successful entrepreneur who sold his first company for at least $100 million.”

00:51:51 – Six years later, he sold the company for $105.5M — built with no employees using what he calls the “hub model,” contracting specialized experts instead of managing staff.

00:55:00 – He explains “Mini Mind Movies” — visualizing not the goal, but the day after success. His post-exit visualization? Spending the entire day in pajamas.

00:57:49 – When the sale closed, he and his wife wore pajamas to a five-star restaurant, completing the mental script they had rehearsed for years.

Brandon introduces Nick Santonastasso, born with Hanhart syndrome (no legs, one arm, underdeveloped organs), given a 30% chance to survive birth — who became a wrestler, bodybuilder, speaker, and Tony Robbins trainer.

01:00:00 – Nick explains how he reframed his physical condition not as a limitation but as a platform. Instead of asking “Why me?” he learned to ask “Why not me?”

01:06:00 – He describes learning to wrestle in high school despite no legs, emphasizing mindset over circumstance.

01:12:00 – Nick shares how confidence is built through small, repeated wins — not through waiting to “feel ready.”

01:20:00 – Brandon transitions into identity strategies. He explains that identity precedes behavior — your actions reinforce who you believe you are.

01:28:00 – Guests discuss how upgrading beliefs requires surrounding yourself with people operating at a higher standard.

01:35:00 – The idea that your environment normalizes what once felt impossible — echoing Andre and Sean’s stories.

01:48:00 – Brandon explores how proximity accelerates growth — podcasting was his gateway to build relationships with people he once only listened to.

02:05:00 – Discussion of emotional intelligence and being fully present in conversations as a growth multiplier.

02:22:00 – The importance of curiosity in relationships — asking better questions leads to deeper connection.

02:40:00 – Brandon discusses leverage — building assets and systems rather than trading time for money.

03:05:00 – Guests emphasize focus: cutting...

👉 Access The 4% Files Treasure Map HERE To Get A Detailed Recap & Summary Of This Series!

👉 Access all of the bonus material from the 4% Files right here

I’d be lying if I told you that I wasn’t a bit star struck when I first met Michael Hauge.

Here’s what I knew about him:

1. Will Smith himself had said “No one is better than Michael Hauge at finding what is most authentic in every moment of a story.”
2. Russell Brunson, the founder of Clickfunnels, credits Michael’s frameworks as one of the keys that helped grow his software company that has 100,000 active customers and creates millions of dollars a month in sales.
3. For four decades, he has been one of Hollywood’s top story experts and consultants working on projects starring Julia Roberts, Morgan Freeman, and Tom Cruise (to name a few)... and specifically with Will Smith, he consulted on he consulted on the scripts for I Am Legend, Hancock, The Karate Kid, Suicide Squad, and Bright.

I had been impacted by his work and was incredibly grateful he agreed to come on the show WAY back when I was just getting started on episode #36 in June 2021.

It was during that interview that I did something I was nervous to do:

I asked Michael for feedback on a story I was working on.

Not only did Michael say yes and give me LIVE coaching on the recording, but he offered to come back for a part TWO where he would review the changes and tweak what I did with the story even more.

That SINGLE ask was the start of what has been a transformational relationship with Michael over the last 5 years, and today I’m grateful to call him a dear friend and mentor.

Like all of the guests on the 4% files, my life would be fundamentally different if it weren’t for Michael.

Here’s why:

Yes, Michael has made me a 100,000x better storyteller.

Because unlike many storytelling frameworks that solely focus on the “external hero’s journey” (The call to adventure, meeting the mentor, etc.), Michael has become known for what he refers to as the hero’s “inner journey.”

The Inner Journey is the deeper storyline that makes a story truly great of how the hero moves from hiding within a protective identity to experiencing his or her true essence.

But beyond being a better storyteller, Michael’s storytelling frameworks gave me a blueprint for living a more courageous life.

The way Michael teaches story structure gives you a glimpse into this pattern of the human condition that ANYONE must face if they are going to follow their heart and build a life doing what they care about.

So as you listen to this one, I invite you to listen from two perspectives:

1. How might I tell better stories to inspire others?
2. How might I apply this pattern to living a more courageous life, doing what matters most to me?

I can’t wait for you to listen!

00:00 – Introduction to Beyond Curious and today’s guest, Michael Hauge.

Brandon Fong welcomes listeners to the 10th “4% File,” part of an 11-episode series distilling the most powerful insights from over 334 hours of Beyond Curious conversations. He explains the purpose of the series, reflects on the magnitude of the project, and sets the stage for revisiting one of the show’s most influential guests.

00:00:54 – How to use the 4% Files Treasure Map.

Brandon addresses new listeners who may be jumping into the series mid-stream, explaining how the Treasure Map in the episode description recaps the entire journey and how earlier files provide essential context for the deeper insights ahead.

00:01:48 – Introducing Hollywood storytelling legend Michael Hauge.

Brandon formally introduces Michael Hauge, highlighting his reputation as a mentor, friend, and one of Hollywood’s most respected story experts, known especially for his insights into fear and the hero’s inner journey.

00:02:12 – Brandon’s personal origin story with storytelling and podcasts.

Brandon recounts discovering podcasts in 2015 while traveling in Spain and how hearing Russell Brunson credit Michael Hauge’s work led him down a deep path into story theory, particularly the Heroes Two Journeys framework.

00:03:04 – Outer journey vs. inner journey in storytelling.

Brandon explains what distinguishes Michael’s work from traditional hero’s journey teachings: a focus on the hero’s inner transformation—moving from fear and protective identity toward true essence—which gives stories their emotional power.

00:03:55 – Michael Hauge’s Hollywood career and influence.

Brandon outlines Michael’s decades-long career consulting on major films and working with top actors and studios, including praise from Will Smith that underscores Michael’s ability to find authenticity in story moments.

00:04:32 – The first Beyond Curious interview that changed everything.

Brandon reflects on recording episode 36 with Michael in 2021, sharing how asking for live story feedback on air—despite being nervous—sparked a long-term mentorship and collaboration.

00:05:14 – From mentorship to Curiosity Island.

Brandon describes how Michael supported the early idea of a story-driven mastermind, later evolving into the Curiosity Island community, where Michael became one of its founding citizens.

00:06:53 – What to listen for in this episode.

Brandon previews key highlights: Michael’s definition of story, his six-step storytelling framework, his favorite question for uncovering emotional depth, and the unexpected philosophy that led to relationships with Will Smith and Russell Brunson.

00:07:43 – Bonus resources and modernized story coaching.

Listeners are told where to download Michael’s six-step chart and about a new bonus episode where Michael interviews Brandon and reconstructs the modern origin story of Curiosity Island in real time.

00:09:01 – Michael Hauge joins the conversation.

Michael greets Brandon and the audience, marking the transition from introduction into the main interview.

00:09:07 – Growing up around movies and popcorn.

Michael shares a formative childhood story about his father’s candy store near a movie theater in Salem, Oregon, explaining how free popcorn runs to the theater sparked his lifelong love of film.

00:12:27 – Family, storytelling, and early influences.

Michael reflects on his mother’s background as an English teacher and a family culture rich in storytelling, noting how humor, conflict, and “bad things happening” shaped his subconscious understanding of what makes stories compelling.

00:14:34 – From preschool teacher to Hollywood hopeful.

Michael recounts teaching in Head Start programs, navigating the Vietnam-era draft deferment, and eventually moving to Los Angeles—despite fear and uncertainty—to pursue a career in film.

00:18:06 – What is a story, really?

Michael defines story as the recreation or imitation of life that allows an audience to emotionally experience events that aren’t literally happening, grounding his explanation in character, desire, conflict, empathy, and transformation.

00:21:04 – Why fear is at the heart of transformation.

Michael explains that the deepest stories revolve around characters moving from fear to courage, and that inner change—not just external success—is what resonates most powerfully with audiences.

00:24:32 – How “fun” led to Will Smith and Russell Brunson.

Michael shares how following curiosity and enjoyment—rather than strategic networking—led him to collaborations with major figures, including the creation of the Heroes Two Journeys seminar with Christopher Vogler.

00:31:09 – Michael’s favorite storytelling question.

Michael reveals the single most powerful question he asks when developing stories: What terrifies the hero more than anything? He explains how digging beneath surface fears uncovers universal emotional truths.

00:41:29 – The six-step storytelling framework.

Michael walks through his “Six Step Success Story” model—Setup, Crisis, Pursuit, Conflict, Climax, and Aftermath—showing how each beat is essential for persuasive and emotionally resonant storytelling.

00:54:52 – Truth vs. fact in business storytelling.

Michael clarifies that effective business stories must be true in essence, even if they use composite characters or condensed events, emphasizing ethical responsibility and emotional clarity.

00:57:09 – Origin stories vs. client success stories.

Michael explains why every business needs both: an origin story to build empathy and purpose, and client stories where the customer is the hero—allowing prospects to see themselves in the journey.

01:02:16 – Why the live coaching segment was moved to bonus content.

Brandon explains that the original on-air story coaching has been replaced with a more relevant, modern, and in-depth bonus session where Michael reconstructs Brandon’s current origin story.

01:03:01 – Closing reflections and gratitude.

Michael and Brandon reflect on the depth of the conversation, the care put into the interview, and the mutual respect that has grown from their shared exploration of story, courage, and curiosity.

1. goBeyondCurious.com/files – Access the 4% Files Treasure Map, Michael Hauge’s six-step storytelling chart, and all bonus materials mentioned in this episode
2. Hero's 2 Journeys (Michael Hauge & Christopher Vogler) – Foundational storytelling framework referenced throughout the conversation
3. StoryMastery.com – Michael Hauge’s official site, including resources, courses, and interviews
4. Beyond Curious Episodes 36 & 37 – Original interviews where Michael coached Brandon live on storytelling

👉 Access The 4% Files Treasure Map HERE To Get A Detailed Recap & Summary Of This Series!

👉 Access all of the bonus material from the 4% Files right here

Have you ever stopped and stared at the beauty of a leaf?

One of the first things you’ll notice is the little veins branching off…

They look awfully similar to the branches that the leaf came from…

They look awfully similar to the roots underneath the tree…

It’s mesmerizing.

And it’s also a fractal.

Once you start noticing fractals, you’ll start to see them EVERYWHERE.

Those ice crystals forming on your windshield? Fractal.

The atoms our bodies are made of? Fractal.

The beautiful pattern on that pinecone? Fractal.

A fractal is simply a repeating pattern that continues at every scale.

Yes, they occur all over nature, but they ALSO occur all over our lives.

That strength you have that gets you results every time you use it? What if THAT was a fractal? (Hint: it is)

That “problem” that keeps occurring in your life? What if THAT is a fractal? (Hint: it is).

Today, I’m introducing you to the person that changed my life by bringing “Fractal Thinking” into it — Perry Marshall.

Perry has one of the most curious and deep minds that I’ve ever interviewed on the show, and his curiosity has led him all over the place. 

Perry is…

• A former mechanical engineer turned famed marketing legend
• The founder of the $10M Evolution 2.0 Prize for Origin of Life research
• On a mission to reverse cancer
• The pioneer of innovative “80/20 thinking” used by NASA’s jet propulsion labs

… to name a few.

It was Perry (and his book 80/20 Sales and Marketing) that broke down the fractal nature of the 80/20 rule that actually led to the entire development of my Find Your Four® process and therefore the 4% Files Series.

There’s so much we dive into, including:

• How to stop fighting problems and instead find and defeat the SOURCE of what’s creating all of the problems to begin with… (and what that has to do with a poem written in the year 975)
• How to solve 95% of a problem by simply shifting the way you define the problem to begin with. 
• How to use “Renaissance Time” to stop reacting and start architecting the life you actually want (and how you can start using it by buying a $13 alarm clock)

What makes this episode so powerful is that it goes FAR beyond tactics… it upgrades the way you see the world and solve problems.

Brandon Fong welcomes listeners to The 9th 4% File, part of the 11-part Beyond Curious series distilling the most powerful insights from over 334 hours of podcast conversations. He previews why Perry Marshall—engineer turned marketing legend and systems thinker—embodies “beyond curious” thinking.

Brandon shares his personal journey into direct response marketing and how discovering Perry’s work—especially 80/20 Sales and Marketing—reshaped his worldview through fractal 80/20 thinking and the concept of “finding your 4%.”

Brandon sets the stage:

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. Stop fighting symptoms and defeat problems at their source
4. 
   
5. 
   
6. 
   
7. Why a problem clearly defined is 95% solved
8. 
   
9. 
   
10. 
    
11. The power of “Renaissance Time” and deep thinking rituals
12. 
    
13. 
    

Perry enters the show, setting an open, exploratory tone as Brandon invites him to begin with a story that frames the entire episode.

Perry retells Beowulf as a systems metaphor: killing Grendel (the symptom) doesn’t solve the problem—Grendel’s mother (the source) lives at the bottom of the swamp. True solutions require confronting what everyone avoids.

Perry explains how the swamp represents taboo truths—organizational, cultural, personal, or scientific—that people build walls around instead of confronting directly.

Brandon connects Beowulf’s descent to Perry’s quote from Evolution 2.0: choosing to pursue truth even if it costs everything, defining “beyond curious” as a lived commitment.

Perry recounts losing his father to cancer at age 17, later losing close loved ones, and how these experiences quietly shaped his openness to tackling cancer when the opportunity emerged.

Perry explains how his background in electrical engineering and systems thinking allows him to see cancer not as chaos, but as an evolutionary process gone unchecked—an insight missed by siloed disciplines.

A disagreement with Perry’s brother sparks a deep investigation into evolutionary theory, revealing that cells actively engineer themselves—contrary to the “random mutation” narrative taught in popular science.

Perry reframes cancer as cells activating their evolutionary toolkit without a proper “off switch,” revealing why current definitions—and treatments—often fail.

Perry shares breakthroughs from researchers who can detect pre-cancerous stress signals in the bloodstream, potentially enabling prevention years before diagnosis.

“A problem clearly defined is 95% solved.” Perry explains how most failures—personal, organizational, or medical—stem from solving the wrong problem entirely.

Perry draws parallels between dysfunctional families, churches, bureaucracies, and scientific communities—each protecting unspoken truths to preserve stability.

“If you need a new idea, read an old book.” Perry explains how forgotten scientific frameworks—some over a century old—resurface once technology catches up.

Perry reveals how discovering fractals helped him see 80/20 as a fundamental law of nature—not just business—governing everything from biology to behavior.

Examples ranging from alcoholism to pest control illustrate how self-reinforcing systems naturally follow 80/20 dynamics.

Perry explains how success accelerates when people stop forcing themselves into roles they’re unsuited for and instead align with their innate abilities.

Deep emotional work reveals how unresolved shame suppresses curiosity, creativity, and growth—both individually and collectively.

Using the Genesis story, Perry identifies shame as humanity’s most universal inhibitor—and the clearest signal pointing toward the real problem.

Perry describes his daily ritual of uninterrupted reflection—no phone, no media—and why reading pre-Gutenberg wisdom sharpens judgment in a noisy world.

Perry explains why he requires Renaissance Time from clients—and why constant stimulation destroys clarity, curiosity, and strategic insight.

Perry shares resources for learning 80/20 thinking and evolutionary science, encouraging listeners to build lives aligned with curiosity, meaning, and long-term impact.

Perry closes with a powerful metaphor: choosing curiosity and purpose may mean eating “slop” instead of steak—but it’s how world-changing missions begin.

• 4% Treasure Map
• 80/20 Sales and Marketing Book – Foundational guide to fractal 80/20 thinking
• Evolution 2.0 Podcast - Ongoing conversations at the intersection of science, evolution, and cancer research
• Ultimate Guide to Google Ads Book

👉 Access The 4% Files Treasure Map HERE To Get A Detailed Recap & Summary Of This Series!

👉 Access all of the bonus material from the 4% Files right here

Back in July 2025, I saw a social media post that made my heart stop:

The headline prominently said:

Rest in Peace Steve Sims

July 1966 - July 2025

Steve Sims was a podcast guest that had a profoundly deep impact in my life. 

In case you haven’t heard of Steve before, he was coined by Forbes as “The Real Life Wizard of Oz” who helped his clients do things like:

• Get married by the Pope
• Take submarine trips to the Titanic
• Have dinner in front of Michelangelo’s David while being serenaded by Andrea Bocelli
• Meet celebrities like Elton John and Elon Musk

He even once took a group on a private tour of the Tesla gigafactory… followed by a visit to a legal, licensed brothel to learn about the power of communication (yes, seriously).

But beyond the crazy experiences…

Steve Sims gave me a new blueprint for life.

In fact, a few years ago when journaling about the 3 people I most looked up to, Steve’s name was high on that list — right next to my wife and daughter.

Even though we only spent a few hours together across these interviews, Steve’s mindset has been running like a background program in my brain ever since I met him.

He embodied the values and passions that drive my life today:

• Family & Heart: He loved his wife and kids deeply, and built his business alongside them
• Doing the Impossible: His entire life was proof that “impossible” is just a starting point
• Experiences: The most inspiring (and wildest) experience designer I’ve ever met
• Fun & Play: He approached life like a big kid—joyful, absurd, and always ready to make you laugh
• Being Unapologetically You: Steve knew who he was and never tried to be anything else
• Pure Passion for Life: You could hear it in his voice—he lived with passion, every single day
• Storytelling: Hands down my favorite storyteller of all time—he didn’t just live great stories, he delivered them in unforgettable ways

So to honor his legacy, on episode #250 of the show, I stitched together all 3 of our interviews at once.

As I dove through my entire podcast library for this series, I HAD to include my interviews with Steve, despite the fact that I only recently published the trilogy.

But of course, with this being the 4% Files I had to do something even more epic…

You see:

The magic of this series is that EVERYTHING I’m sharing I’ve tested personally… for years. 

None of this is something I just learned about and haven’t implemented in a deep way.

So in addition to the truly transformational content that Steve himself shares in the episodes, I actually weave together ~45 minutes of bonus content walking you through exactly how I’ve implemented what I learned from Steve.

These episodes with Steve truly showed me what was possible beyond my wildest imagination at the time…

But just as a fair warning:

This is my LONGEST episode to date, clocking in at 3 and a half hours. 

So you’re in for a ride if you commit to this one.

But if you do, I promise it’ll be worth it.

00:00:00 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today's guest, Steve Sims, as Brandon tees up a “monster” 3+ hour episode surfacing the full Steve Sims trilogy—plus his own commentary between each interview segment.

00:01:36 - Brandon kicks off the trilogy compilation (“buckle your seatbelts”), then we get a teaser straight from Steve: an absurdly epic Florence dining experience beneath Michelangelo’s David—complete with a lesson hidden in the punchline “no one’s ever asked.”

00:02:57 - Brandon zooms out on imagination and identity (“you can’t become a version of yourself you can’t conceive”), name-dropping Napoleon Hill and Einstein while framing why Steve’s worldview can permanently expand what feels possible.

00:05:34 - Brandon introduces Steve’s backstory and impact (bricklayer → bouncer → luxury concierge and experience designer), then shares the heartbreaking context: Steve passed away July 7, 2025 from cancer, and this release honors his legacy by stitching all three episodes together.

00:07:17 - Brandon explains the special 4% Files format: after each interview installment, he’ll return with implementation-focused commentary—what he actually applied and what created compounding results over time—then transitions into episode one (recorded October 2021).

00:13:09 - Steve (story): A client wants to recreate how he originally “won” his wife—college picnic rug, boom box, and all—so Steve rebuilds the moment down to the exact vibe, including tracking down working boomboxes and even figuring out how to record a cassette in the modern era.

00:15:29 - Steve reveals the ridiculous-but-brilliant workaround to “you can’t rent a public park”: he stations attractive women walking dogs on long leashes in a moving perimeter—because “men are terrified of attractive women”—to keep strangers from wandering into the recreated proposal scene.

00:26:03 - Steve (principle): “Control the front door.” As a doorman, he learns you don’t filter people out to be exclusive—you filter to prevent chaos later. Then he introduces “silly password” mechanics (Sesame Street / Teletubbies-type prompts) that inject positivity before anyone even enters.

00:29:18 - Steve describes bouncing a wealthy, entitled guy for refusing to play the childish password game—and how the resulting “rude doormen” press turned into the best marketing they could have gotten, making even more people want in.

00:31:03 - Brandon reflects on how the “velvet rope” concept applies to business: designing the filter up-front prevents 99% of downstream problems—then pivots toward Bluefishing strategies.

00:48:12 - Brandon (commentary bridge): He connects Steve’s patterns (filters, contrast, and bold asks) to how Brandon has applied them in real life—setting up the “implementation” framing that will recur between each installment.

00:01:04:08 - Brandon introduces Part 2 with three things to watch for: (1) listening under what people say (Elton John + realtor examples), (2) leveraging “Unpolished” to stand out, and (3) Steve’s experience design (including a Tesla gigafactory → brothel contrast day).

00:01:06:15 - Part 2 begins with Brandon and Steve riffing on “Sims the Sequel,” setting the tone for another rapid-fire, story-heavy sprint.

00:01:08:12 - Steve (insight): We live in a “gotcha society” that loves laughing at people—so most people hide their dreams to avoid ridicule. Steve’s job, as he sees it, is listening past the words to the real desire underneath.

00:01:10:00 - Steve revisits the core responsibility of proximity to high-status people: guard the front door. If someone misbehaves at Elton John’s Oscar party, it reflects on you, so curation is a form of integrity—not elitism.

00:01:11:38 - Steve (story): A brash caller wants a photo + autograph with Elton “before he dies.” Steve clocks the request as shallow and doesn’t even take the guy’s contact info—because it’s about status props, not meaning.

00:01:13:45 - A second caller sounds similar, but Steve shifts the conversation with one question—“Why?”—and the whole emotional temperature changes, revealing a completely different motivation.

00:01:15:01 - Steve (story payoff): The real “why”: the caller’s dad drove him to school with an Elton John cassette on repeat; years after his dad’s death, hearing Elton briefly “brings his dad back” for three minutes—so he just wants to say thank you.

00:01:17:16 - Steve orchestrates the moment at the Oscar party; when the story lands, both men tear up and hug. Steve highlights the lesson: solving the surface request would’ve missed what the person truly needed—asking “why” created the impact.

00:01:35:41 - Steve (unpolished connection): He sends clients bizarre physical “touches” (scribbles on in-flight magazines, random artifacts) and expects they might hate it—until a long-time client says the “worthless crap” is exactly why they remember him: “Don’t stop.”

00:01:38:47 - Steve underlines the meta-lesson Brandon just said out loud: the human element. Imperfect, obviously-human mail signals care in a world drowning in polished automation.

00:01:44:55 - Steve (tactic): Approaching someone famous? Start with “You don’t know me” to remove their anxiety and let them actually listen—then offer value (e.g., “I noticed three things that could improve your marketing/branding”).

00:01:47:58 - The guy Steve approaches laughs—then reveals the project was shut down six months ago… and Steve’s first two suggestions would’ve saved it. Result: Steve gets invited into an ongoing retainer relationship.

00:01:53:47 - Experience design, live: Steve describes taking Speakeasy attendees to two extremes in one day: a private tour of Elon Musk’s Gigafactory (newest industry) followed by the Bunny Ranch (oldest industry), using contrast to create a learning “roller coaster.”

00:01:55:17 - On the bus pulling up to the brothel, the energy drops—60% of the group is women, everyone goes silent, and Steve’s friend warns it could go “real well or real south fast.” Then Air Force Amy welcomes them in, and the awkwardness evolves into unexpected connection and conversation.

00:02:02:41 - Steve’s event philosophy: your gathering should become a community—“one person turns up and 200 people leave as one unit”—and that unity is built through shared discomfort, pattern interrupts, and guided growth.

00:02:03:58 - Steve (exercise): At a Speakeasy, he pulls everyone’s LinkedIn photo + bio into a printed sheet without asking, then has random people introduce each other using only what’s on the page—instantly exposing who’s showing up weak online and why it’s costing them conversations.

00:02:07:04 - Steve (Elon story): While touring SpaceX with clients, one asks Elon about NASA publicly humiliating him. Elon replies: “They always laugh at you just before they applaud.” Steve ties this to creating “safe ridicule” inside his room—so people can practice being bold with backup.

00:02:28:26 - Brandon (commentary): He emphasizes psychological safety: pushing people past comfort zones only works when the container is benevolent and trust-based—then tees up Part 3’s themes: Luigi, protecting big dreams, and being impossible to misunderstand.

00:02:29:44 - Part 3 begins with Brandon joking about Steve as the “ugly bald guy” people ask about—and calling him the first “three-peat” guest.

00:02:35:00 - Steve lays out a filter for criticism: why care about opinions from people who “can’t afford you” or haven’t built anything? He ties it to choosing better voices to listen to—and the danger of letting bitter bystanders shrink your vision.

00:02:36:22 - At a dinner party with Marvel actors, the table plays “what’s your superpower?” Steve struggles to answer—until his wife Claire steps in.

00:02:37:53 - Claire declares Steve’s superpower is “ignorance”—and Steve’s first thought is “I’m gonna get a divorce.” Then she reframes it as his refusal to internalize naysayers, chuckles, or “it can’t be done.”

00:02:43:35 - The Luigi story: Steve recounts shutting down an entire museum in Florence so clients could dine at Michelangelo’s David while Andrea Bocelli performed. When Steve tries to flex to a staffer (“Luigi”), the guy shrugs: “No one’s ever asked.”

00:02:46:16 - Steve lands the thesis: you get an automatic “no” for every question you don’t ask. Brandon sums it up in one word: Ask.

00:03:11:05 - Clarity & simplicity: Brandon and Steve discuss making messages easy to understand (even “fourth grade level”), and Steve explains he’s heard hyper-advanced ideas from people like Peter Diamandis, Ray Kurzweil, Elon Musk, and Larry Page—yet the best communicators can explain them simply enough to retell at home.

00:03:12:10 - Brandon transitions to Steve and Claire’s 37-year relationship and asks how their partnership evolved across decades and identity shifts.

00:03:14:06 - Steve talks about “toys change as you get more successful,” and critiques the reflex to “upgrade” partners instead of asking if you can grow together. He credits Claire as essential to his books and to raising their standards through mutual pushing.

00:03:15:32 - Steve articulates Claire’s superpower: quiet strength—nudging him back into alignment without making him feel controlled (which, he notes, entrepreneurs typically hate).

00:03:18:01 - Steve closes with a promise about his book: it’s not a “glory hole” autobiography—it’s meant to be tactical, helping readers improve relationships, raise standards, increase clarity, and remove confusion.

00:03:18:34 - Brandon’s final call-to-action: the biggest permission Steve gave him is to ask, practice asking until it gets easier, and go for “stupid” goals you’re willing to be laughed at for.

00:03:19:39 - Brandon returns solo, thanks listeners for staying for 3+ hours, and begins his final takeaway list—starting with the Luigi punchline and his dad’s framing that “no” is the worst outcome, so asking has asymmetric upside.

00:03:26:24 - Brandon points listeners to Steve’s work (Bluefishing, Go for Stupid) and mentions Steve’s son Henry’s legacy via henrysims.com and Sims Media (if still active).

00:03:27:16 - Final “ask” from Brandon: leave a rating/review via ratethispodcast.com/BeyondCurious to help others discover the 4% Files wisdom—then he wraps and previews the ninth file.

Links & Resources

• Steve D. Sims Official Website: Learn more about Steve’s work and legacy.
• Henry Sims – Sims Media: Explore the ongoing legacy of Steve Sims through his son Henry’s media company.
• Sims Distillery: A place for curated ideas, coaching, and inspiration from the Sims family.
• Book: Bluefishing: The Art of Making Things Happen by Steve D. Sims
• Book: Go for Stupid: The Art of Achieving Ridiculous Goals by Steve D. Sims