Beyond Curious ®

Five years ago, I hit “publish” on a wild experiment.

(If you want a laugh, check out episode #1. I listened to it and was cringing like crazy)

It wasn’t called Beyond Curious back then — but the mission underneath it was the same:

To explore what it really means to live a rich life… not just financially, but emotionally, spiritually, and consciously.

Fast forward to today, and this week marks the 5-year anniversary of this show.

And here’s the funny thing — I didn’t even realize the anniversary was coming up until very recently.

My first thought was, “oh shit, I should probably do something special for the anniversary episode.”

But with a 2 week trip to Italy, my daughter’s 2 year old birthday party, and some live event planning, I didn’t really have time to think about it 😆

That’s when I realized something epic:

I DID have a perfect episode to release for the anniversary — a conversation with my friend and Curiosity Island Castaway Susanne Goldstein where she turned the tables and interviewed me!

I met Susanne about a year ago and am incredibly grateful for the awarenesses she’s brought in many domains, specifically around Consciousness and Energetics.

So while I had NO idea what Susanne was going to ask me, in this episode, we explore:

• Why discovering your uniqueness is actually the path to realizing your oneness.
• How playing pool as a kid became a foundational vehicle for my curiosity & how my curiosity WORKS (I didn’t fully realize this until this conversation)
• How empathy and curiosity are intertwined — and why seeing the world through someone else’s eyes can dissolve separation
• Why your “future self” isn’t someone you’ll meet later… but a version of you that already exists (and what this has to do with me manifesting two mirrors!)

If you’ve been walking alongside me on this journey — whether since episode 1 or episode 260+ —  I can’t wait for you to listen!

Show Notes Generated With The Help of AI!00:00 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today's guest, Susanne Goldstein

Brandon celebrates the 5-year anniversary of Beyond Curious, reflecting on the journey from its humble, cringe-worthy beginnings to an uninterrupted 265-week streak. He introduces a special episode where Susanne Goldstein turns the tables to interview him, diving into themes like curiosity, empathy, consciousness, and how his childhood shaped his mindset.

01:25 - The “Perfect” Unplanned Anniversary Episode

Brandon shares how, despite a whirlwind trip to Italy and family events, he realized he had already recorded the perfect anniversary episode with Susanne. He previews key highlights: how discovering your uniqueness leads to realizing your oneness, pool as a metaphor for curiosity, and a wild story about manifesting mirrors.

04:28 - Susanne Kicks Off the Interview and Sets the Tone

Susanne takes the reins, introducing Brandon as the mind behind the Beyond Curious movement and Curiosity Island. She celebrates his gift of conversational curiosity and tees up a deep, exploratory discussion on what drives him.

06:13 - The Octopus Story: A Symbol of Curiosity

Susanne recounts their first conversation sparked by a show about octopuses and how it signaled Brandon’s natural ability to dive deep into any topic. She probes how he navigates unfamiliar territory with others by focusing on their motivation.

08:22 - Why Brandon Is Obsessed with Curiosity

Brandon explores the foundational role curiosity plays in human evolution and consciousness. He believes the universe is inherently curious and that this drive powers all growth and connection.

10:11 - Susanne on Cultural Blocks to Curiosity

Susanne shares a personal story about being perceived as "interrogating" someone simply by asking questions. She contrasts this with her upbringing in a Socratic, question-driven household and proposes the need for a “curiosity epidemic.”

13:07 - Pool as a Portal: How Billiards Fueled Brandon’s Learning

Brandon reflects on how learning to play pool gave him a framework for pattern recognition, anticipation, and intellectual exploration—revealing the importance of finding a foundational skill that sparks curiosity.

17:10 - Can We Teach Curiosity?

The duo discusses how to instill curiosity in future generations. Susanne’s mission to teach emotional intelligence to kindergartners leads them to explore language, culture, and the shift from seeking certainty to seeking clarity.

21:05 - Conscious Language: The Spells We Cast with Words

They delve into how language shapes our reality, with Brandon explaining how he’s trying to shift away from binary phrases like "right" or "wrong" with his daughter, Kaya. Susanne expands on the magical power of “spelling” and its connection to conscious creation.

24:06 - Susanne Explains 3D, 4D, and 5D Consciousness

Susanne introduces the framework of dimensional consciousness, describing 3D as the survival paradigm, 4D as the awakening to possibility, and 5D as full creator consciousness rooted in love. She illustrates how beliefs evolve with consciousness.

29:59 - Brandon’s Integration of Consciousness Through Curiosity

Brandon shares how spending time with high-vibration people like the Curiosity Island castaways and using his Find Your Four framework helped him evolve spiritually and realize that pursuing his uniqueness led to the realization of oneness.

34:02 - Masculine and Feminine Energies Explained

Susanne clarifies Brandon’s use of “masculine” and “feminine” as energetic archetypes, not gendered terms, and explores how understanding these energies allows deeper self-discovery and universal alignment through curiosity.

37:12 - Love as the Frequency that Elevates Humanity

Susanne presents David Hawkins' Map of Consciousness, highlighting love as the tipping point where humanity can shift paradigms. Brandon affirms that adopting new perspectives is as simple—and radical—as changing the lens we see through.

40:15 - Empathy + Curiosity = Dissolving Separation

Brandon connects empathy and curiosity as twin forces that break down perceived differences. He shares how realizing that consciousness is non-local can help us shift from reactive humans to observant higher selves.

43:36 - The Observer Within: Stepping Outside the Self

Susanne illustrates how to practice 360-degree thinking and recognize the “observer” in us. She explains that consciousness may reside in the energetic plasma of the universe—further evidence of our interconnectedness.

47:09 - Children, Imagination, and the Power of the Mind’s Eye

Brandon discusses how children naturally see internal and external reality as equal, and how trusting our mind’s imagery as real can reawaken this multidimensional perception in adults.

51:18 - Manifesting a Mirror: Brandon’s Wild Story

Brandon shares a jaw-dropping story of envisioning a mirror to symbolize his higher self—and literally finding one discarded on his bike route the next day. Susanne confirms this as powerful co-creation in action.

57:35 - Timeline Jumping and Future Selves

Susanne introduces timeline work, prompting Brandon to reflect on a real-life shift catalyzed by a former friend’s sudden departure. He credits this emotional event with unlocking a new reality aligned with his growth and purpose.

01:03:44 - Who Are You Choosing to Be Now?

Susanne invites Brandon—and listeners—to consider what version of themselves they want to step into next. She reminds us that it's not about what we do, but who we are as we do it that defines our next timeline.

Links & Resources:

• Episode 219: Susanne's Beyond Curious® Episode
• Curiosity Island™ Community: Curiosity Island™
• Susanne Goldstein’s Website: susannegoldstein.com
• David Hawkins – Map of Consciousness & “Power vs. Force” Book: Power vs. Force on Amazon
• Michael Singer – “The Untethered Soul” & “The Surrender Experiment”: The Untethered Soul
• The Surrender Experiment
• Journey of Souls by Michael Newton: Journey of Souls on Amazon

On August 7th, I had a session with my friend Keith Hodge where he supported me in connecting deeper with my vision and future self.

In that session, a new awareness came through:

To step into the next level of my vision and impact, I would need to shift my relationship with judgement.

(I’ll explain more what I mean by this in a second)

A day or so later after that session, I stumbled across a podcast interview from someone I didn’t know at the time: Dr. Steven Young.

I almost skipped it. The message could’ve easily gotten buried in 50+ WhatsApp notifications.

But something nudged me to listen.

…And I’m SO glad I did.

What I heard in that episode hit me like a cosmic 2x4 — in the most beautiful way.

I counted five synchronicities between what Steven shared and the exact thoughts, questions, and awarenesses that had been bubbling up for me.

Most of them were things I hadn’t shared with anyone. It was like he was reading my mind 😆

One of the biggest synchronicities was the fact that he has worked to consciously remove judgement language from his vocabulary, specifically:

• Good / Bad
• Right / Wrong
• Positive / Negative

AND that he had a course that, through the teachings of Hermetics, would share how to dissolve this language. 

I went through the course and was BLOWN away, and also was so grateful that he agreed to come on the show.

This conversation is packed with deep wisdom about how we shape our reality, often without realizing it.

In this episode with Dr. Steven Young, we explore:

• Why the traditional SMART goal framework might actually limit growth — and how to guarantee better results by doing what Dr. Young calls, “Approaching Life Obliquely” 
• How you can increase awareness of the unconscious language you’re using that may be inhibiting your growth… including removing judgement language. 
• 3 Fundamental Shifts in How You View Reality: Why your perception of time, your awareness of context, and your ability to zoom between dual and non-dual perspectives might be unconsciously shaping your entire life — and how learning to shift these frameworks gives you new tools to navigate reality with greater clarity and power.

If you’re someone who values elevating your consciousness, language as a tool for transformation, and spiritual growth, this is a HUGE episode for you.

Show Notes Generated With The Help of AI!

00:00 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today’s guest, Dr. Steven Young

Brandon opens by welcoming listeners and sharing the synchronistic story of how he discovered Dr. Steven Young, whose teachings on dissolving judgment and shifting perception deeply resonated with him. Brandon also previews three mind-expanding themes listeners can expect in the episode: why SMART goals may limit growth, the power of upgrading unconscious language, and transformative shifts in perceiving reality.

00:04:41 - Who is Dr. Steven Young?

Brandon introduces Dr. Steven Young’s profound body of work, highlighting his 36 years of research into harmonizing mind, body, and spirit. Dr. Young has launched five businesses, treated 9,000+ patients holistically, and now helps others craft a reality based on harmony, not separation.

00:06:09 - The story behind a viral Shaolin monk photo and a dream come true

Dr. Young recounts how a dream about actor Zachary Quinto came true years later when he was invited to appear with him on a show analyzing the energy physiology of a Shaolin monk. He shares surprising scientific findings from the shoot and how the experience connected back to themes of intention and spiritual manifestation.

00:11:10 - Dissolving comparison and hierarchy through spiritual practice

Dr. Young discusses his three-year practice devoted to ending comparison and hierarchy. He explains how asking different questions—even to his children—helps reframe conversations and avoid subconscious ranking of people or experiences.

00:14:15 - Real-time examples of noticing comparison and transforming it

Brandon prompts Dr. Young to unpack how he dissolves moments of comparison in real time. Dr. Young shares how he views perceived status differences (like meeting Zachary Quinto) as cues to examine internal attachments, guiding listeners to recognize projection as an opportunity for self-awareness.

00:17:27 - The paradox of being “worthless and everything”

Dr. Young introduces the Hermetic principle of polarity, explaining how embracing both ends of a polarity (like being worthless and divine) allows for true non-dual awareness. Brandon and Dr. Young explore how the language we use (e.g., “worthless”) holds deeper power when held with sacred awareness.

00:19:00 - Dual and non-dual perspectives: The quantum paradox of reality

Dr. Young explains how we are simultaneously separate (particles) and unified (waves), and why discerning whether we are operating in dual or non-dual reality is key to personal growth. He illustrates how confusion often arises when people try to solve problems without recognizing the context they’re in.

00:21:15 - A passport disaster and how perspective changes everything

Dr. Young uses a real-life passport mishap before a spiritual mission to illustrate how obstacles are interpreted differently in dual vs. non-dual frames. In duality, it might be “the other team” interfering; in non-duality, it's an opportunity to notice inner attachments and trust the unfolding.

00:25:54 - The language of polarity and why “unfavorable” matters

Dr. Young shares why he intentionally avoids words like “good” or “bad” and opts for neutral terms like “unfavorable” to allow space for deeper understanding. He explains how judgmental language often halts introspection, whereas conscious language invites expansion.

00:29:35 - Language as energetic geometry: The LEGO visualization

Dr. Young describes a powerful vision he had during meditation where words form energetic LEGO blocks, colored by our emotions, which build our reality. This vision was later confirmed by synesthetic friends who literally see geometric shapes when people speak.

00:33:15 - Hidden contexts: The Russian nesting dolls of reality

Brandon and Dr. Young explore how problems often exist within unexamined contexts. Dr. Young describes using “Russian nesting dolls” as a metaphor for zooming out to find the larger container that’s shaping the issue—and why solving problems at the wrong level limits transformation.

00:35:59 - Rewriting reality through conscious word choice in business

Dr. Young shares a story of advising a high-end eco-community project in Panama, challenging the use of the word “luxury” in their brochure. He explains how replacing a single word can alter the entire energetic intention behind a project, urging listeners to examine their vocabulary carefully.

00:44:13 - How matching frequencies create synchronicities

Brandon shares the surreal story of how he found Dr. Young’s work after a deep visioning session about judgment. Dr. Young explains how language creates frequencies that align people through resonance, not coincidence, offering scientific and metaphysical insights.

00:47:29 - Letting go of desire to live as pure energy

Dr. Young outlines why trying to manifest synchronicities can backfire and shares how simply embodying the frequency of the divine leads to effortless magic. He explains how duality demands honoring both human limitation and divine possibility as one.

00:51:00 - Why SMART goals may be limiting your potential

Dr. Young critiques traditional goal setting frameworks, explaining how setting rigid goals narrows vision and blocks miracles. He shares the Hermetic approach of “approaching life obliquely,” where one focuses on energy, awareness, and process rather than outcomes.

00:55:40 - Process vs. outcome goals and the concept of omni-benefit

Dr. Young introduces the concept of “omni-benefit”—a lens through which every action benefits all involved. He shares how shifting from transactional goals to energy-aligned actions leads to more sustainable and life-serving outcomes.

01:00:37 - A year of no goals that created miraculous results

Dr. Young shares how, in 2024, he abandoned all personal business pursuits to serve the Pachamama Alliance and its mission to prevent human extinction. That year, without any set goals, became the most synchronistic and miraculous of his life—including spontaneous equity offers from mission-aligned businesses.

01:03:03 - Finding balance: The pendulum of goals and presence

In a moment of humility and transparency, Dr. Young shares that he doesn’t intend to stay goalless forever. Instead, he trusts the pendulum will swing back to center. Listeners are invited to trust their own cycles and remain curious as they find balance between intention and surrender.

Links & Resources:

• Check our Dr. Steven Young's Youtube Channel
• Dr. Steven Young’s Hermetic Teachings Course – Explore the 7 Hermetic principles and how to dissolve judgment, shift language, and live from a place of wholeness.
• Pachamama Alliance – The organization devoted to awakening the dream of an environmentally sustainable, spiritually fulfilling, socially just human presence.
• Curiosity Island™ – Brandon’s community and evolving vision that inspired the podcast’s theme of dissolving judgment.

My wife, Leah, turned the big 3-0 yesterday!

To celebrate her, we’re doing two things:

1. We’re in Florence, Italy for two weeks eating copious amounts of gelato, pizza, and gnocchi… introducing our 2 year old daughter to our favorite city
2. I’m releasing this episode to share what I love most about her, using some AI music to add an extra little oomph!

So this episode is part love letter… 

Part reflection on the biggest wisdom Leah has brought into my life (that I think will serve you too)…

And part creative experiment—sharing a unique way you can use AI to express gratitude and bring joy to the people who make your life meaningful.

I can say with 100% certainty: I would not be the person I am today without Leah.

I’m grateful for the opportunity to share the heart and wisdom of someone that means so much to me — can’t wait for you to listen!

Stay Curious,

Brandon

P.S. Did you want to get direct links to the songs I share in this episode? Check them out below…

• If It Weren’t For Her
• Moose Booties
• The Way She Loves
• These Are The Days

Show Notes Generated With The Help of AI!

00:00 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today's guest, Leah (Brandon’s Wife)

Brandon sets the tone for a special episode recorded in celebration of his wife Leah’s 30th birthday, which they’re celebrating in Florence, Italy—a city that has played a significant role in their love story. He shares how the episode is both a love letter to Leah and a reflection on the systems of love and support that enable creative dreamers.

00:56 - The love story behind Florence: Engagements, announcements, and milestones

Brandon recounts their deep connection with Florence, from Leah’s study abroad experience to their engagement, pregnancy announcement, and now, visiting with their daughter. It’s a heartfelt journey through time in a city they love.

01:42 - Celebrating the supporters behind every dreamer

Brandon dives into the purpose of the episode: honoring Leah as the biggest support system in his life. He emphasizes the importance of the people who stand behind the dreamers—those who make wild ideas possible.

02:58 - Creating AI music as a tool for love and reflection

Brandon introduces the episode’s unique format—original AI-generated songs written for Leah. He shares how music creation has deepened their connection and invites listeners to use this process for expressing love and appreciation.

04:30 - Behind the scenes: Why “If It Weren’t for Her” captures Leah’s magic

Brandon explains the inspiration behind his first song, “If It Weren’t for Her,” and how he used ChatGPT and reflection to create it. He breaks down three key themes: Leah as CEO of their household, her unwavering support, and her role as the bringer of joy and color.

06:00 - Leah as CEO of the household: Grounding a space cadet entrepreneur

Brandon shares how Leah helps him function in day-to-day life—planning, organizing, and maintaining social connections. He highlights how her strengths balance his and keep their family rooted and connected.

07:41 - The “joy and color painter”: How Leah adds flavor to life

Brandon reflects on the contrast between his utilitarian college days and Leah’s culinary artistry. Her passion for baking, meal planning, and creating vibrant experiences has transformed their family life into something joyful and nurturing.

09:28 - Unwavering support through every leap of faith

From high school sweethearts to globetrotting adults, Brandon highlights Leah’s unconditional belief in his vision—even through financial risks, job transitions, and life pivots. Her loyalty and trust have been his foundation.

11:52 - 🎵 Song: “If It Weren’t for Her”

A playful yet profound tribute to Leah’s grounding presence. The lyrics paint a vivid picture of how she supports their life—from managing the chaos to believing in Brandon’s biggest dreams.

15:44 - Wisdom from wedding vows: Leah's presence and playful spirit

Brandon reads part of his wedding vows, remembering Leah’s early love for children and her quirky habits. These anecdotes serve as a bridge to the next song, which celebrates her life-long dream of being a mother.

20:23 - 🎵 Song: “Moose Booties”

A deeply emotional song about Leah’s dream of motherhood, sparked by a tiny pair of moose booties Brandon bought in Sweden. It tracks her vision from teenage daydreams to the joyful reality of parenting their daughter Kaya.

24:05 - Gratitude for the best mother and household CEO

Brandon shares his appreciation for Leah’s role as mother, partner, and life organizer. He revisits parts of his wedding vows and offers heartfelt thanks for the selfless, quirky, and deeply loving person that she is.

26:16 - 🎵 Song: “The Way She Loves”

A tender ballad capturing Leah’s essence—the quiet power of her love, her nurturing presence, and how she makes space for others even in her exhaustion. A love letter in lyrical form.

30:47 - 🎵 Song: “These Are the Days”

A joyful, reflective finale reminding listeners to savor the present. It highlights family rituals, toddler giggles, and the beauty of everyday life. A celebration of the now, inspired by Leah’s grounding influence.

33:53 - Closing words and birthday wishes

Brandon wraps up the episode with a direct message to Leah, expressing his love and gratitude for their life together. He thanks listeners for joining the celebration and invites them to reflect on and honor the people who support their dreams.

Links & Resources:

• Episode 246: Brandon shares his full process for creating AI-generated music
• Episode 252: “GPT biking” — Brandon’s method for brainstorming creative ideas while cycling
• Suno (AI music tool): Tool used by Brandon to generate original songs for Leah
• Beyond Curious Podcast: Explore more episodes and insights

Last week, we released part one of a two-part series featuring Marcia Martin — the woman who helped pioneer the self-help empire.

In case you missed it…

Marcia was one of the original pioneers behind EST (now known as Landmark Forum). 

She helped grow it from a 30-person seminar into a worldwide phenomenon with 800,000+ graduates, worked behind the scenes with Tony Robbins, helped catalyze The Secret, and was part of the early movement that sparked the coaching industry as we know it today.

Part one was all about her story — the raw, wild, and fascinating origin of the self-help movement.

But today…

We go deep into how you can create a movement that lasts — learning directly from the woman who helped build one of the most influential transformational empires of all time.

Specifically, we explore how you can:

• Build a movement the way nature grows — by creating virality without using social media
• Leverage Marcia’s “Three Faces” framework to get in touch with your deepest inner truth — and teach, lead, and create from that place of authenticity.
• Design training experiences that engage both your body and your mind to create transformation that actually lasts

Can’t wait for you to listen!

Show Notes Generated With The Help of AI!00:00 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today's guest, Marcia Martin

Brandon welcomes listeners to part two of his interview with Marcia Martin, one of the original architects of the Self Help Empire. He recaps part one and previews what’s to come: the nature-inspired strategy Marcia used to build viral movements before social media, her Three Faces framework, and how to design transformative learning experiences that engage both body and mind.

00:32 - Marcia explains how true movements grow organically

Marcia begins with a profound insight: nature holds the answers to movement-building. By authentically sharing with one person, teaching them to share, and then teaching them to teach others, a self-sustaining, viral movement emerges—no social media required.

02:36 - Three key takeaways from this episode

Brandon outlines the episode’s focal points: building movements like nature, Marcia’s “Three Faces” framework to unlock deep authenticity, and the integration of physical and intellectual learning for true transformation.

04:20 - The dark side of power, fame, and cult-like dynamics

Marcia reflects on her time working with Werner Erhard and the transformation of noble movements into cultish hierarchies. She shares how unchecked power and adoration can lead even good people astray and why deep self-awareness is essential.

06:22 - Why admitting you're wrong is harder than it seems

Marcia discusses the human resistance to admitting mistakes and the psychological trap of justifying bad behavior to maintain a powerful image.

09:30 - The weight of leadership and the responsibility of influence

Marcia shares her lifelong mission to help others feel safe enough to grow. She reflects on how trust and love from others have been her gift—but also a burden she’s had to rise to.

11:26 - The duality of certainty and curiosity in leadership

Brandon and Marcia explore the seductive power of certainty. While certainty can drive action, Marcia cautions that it often blocks collaboration, compromise, and higher truth. True leadership requires balancing conviction with curiosity.

13:15 - The three stages of consciousness and how they evolve

Marcia lays out a powerful framework for understanding consciousness: from victimhood to personal empowerment to living with purpose. She explains how real fulfillment only comes when your actions serve something bigger than yourself.

16:20 - Consciousness is not static; it's moment-by-moment

Brandon shares his insight that we move fluidly through different levels of consciousness in daily life. Marcia echoes this, emphasizing how even seasoned leaders can fall back into old patterns when they’re not mindful.

19:10 - The Three Faces: Pretense, Fear, and True Self

Marcia breaks down her transformative “Three Faces” model—how we present a pretense to cover fear, and how only by facing our fears can we access who we truly are. She explains how this unlocks real human connection and power.

22:18 - The childhood story exercise that unlocks authenticity

Marcia shares a deceptively simple training exercise: asking people to tell a two-minute story from childhood where they learned something valuable. She explains how this bypasses performance and taps into authentic human connection.

25:23 - Moving from performance to presence and emotional truth

The difference between a speaker who performs and one who connects is everything, Marcia explains. When people share from the heart—not their head—audiences feel transformed.

26:38 - Be → Do → Have: The misunderstood order of transformation

Marcia teaches the Be-Do-Have model, explaining that most people think they need to have something (time, money) before they can be who they want to be. In reality, transformation starts with being, which naturally leads to action and results.

30:19 - Why the mind and body must be trained differently

Marcia shares a major insight: the mind learns through understanding, but the body only learns through practice. And because practice requires being a beginner, people often resist it—blocking their own transformation.

34:41 - Creating viral transformation one person at a time

Marcia reveals her process for building scalable, viral experiences by starting with one person and layering teaching levels: first share authentically, then teach, then teach others to teach—until the originator is no longer needed.

36:13 - Modeling is essential: you must show before you tell

Before you can teach someone how to lead or share a message, Marcia says they must see it modeled first. She recounts how she insisted on leading guest seminars at LifeSpring so others could witness and absorb the method authentically.

42:28 - The biggest mistake new teachers make

Marcia identifies a critical error: most people teach at the level they’re currently at, rather than at the level they were when they first learned the lesson. This disconnect undermines learning.

45:32 - Understanding “space” and its role in communication

Marcia introduces the foundational concept of space: both internal and external. For new insights to land, both teacher and learner must clear space mentally and emotionally. Otherwise, there's nowhere for the new to land.

49:01 - The secret ingredient to teaching? Love.

Brandon identifies love as the underlying principle beneath presence, space, and perspective. Marcia confirms this—true transformation is grounded in love, especially the ability to see someone’s potential rather than their fears.

50:09 - Marcia’s unique ability to see people’s potential

Marcia reveals how she doesn’t engage with people’s personalities or fears—only their potential. She views each person as a puzzle, and her curiosity helps her unlock their truth and dissolve their masks.

54:22 - Language reveals unconscious beliefs

Marcia breaks down how to listen between the lines. Language patterns expose the assumptions people hold—and by changing those assumptions, we change our lives.

58:26 - The behind-the-scenes story of The Secret

Brandon shares how The Secret was his entry point into self-development, and Marcia tells the true story of how she played a pivotal role in its creation—from helping Rhonda Byrne access the Transformational Leadership Council to coordinating the iconic shoot in a tiny Snowmass, Colorado room.

01:06:47 - The ripple effect of the Transformational Leadership Council

Marcia explains how The Secret reached its initial audience thanks to TLC’s collective influence—Jack Canfield, John Gray, Marianne Williamson, Michael Beckwith, and others all shared the film with their audiences, helping spark a global phenomenon.

01:10:00 - Visualizing Oprah: Manifestation, magic, and momentum

Marcia and Rhonda Byrne practiced visualizing Oprah during their affirmation sessions. That vision eventually came true, reinforcing the same principles of manifestation shared in the film itself.

Links & Resources:

• Sex, Power, and Transformation by Marcia Martin – Marcia’s memoir exploring the rise of the self-help empire
• Landmark Forum – The modern iteration of EST
• The Secret (2006 Film) — The globally influential documentary on the Law of Attraction.
• Transformational Leadership Council (TLC) — A community of leaders including many featured in The Secret.

Today, I get to introduce you to someone who fundamentally helped create the personal development industry as we know it.

In the 1970s, Marcia Martin was one of the original pioneers behind EST (now known as Landmark Forum).

She was there during the very first 30-person seminar… and helped the organization grow to 800,000+ graduates, sparking a movement that would go on to impact 3.5 million people worldwide.

(And yes, she did all of this back when she had to manage all of this using a “card box” paper filing system)

But her career didn’t just end with EST…

She helped Tony Robbins launch Unlimited Power, worked behind the scenes with Jack Canfield, helped to make the filming of The Secret happen, and supported the creation of the Hoffman Process, Wealth Dynamics, and countless others who would go on to shape an entire generation of transformation.

During my first few conversations with Marcia, I could tell there was so much to cover that a single episode wouldn’t quite do it justice.

So this is why we’re splitting this episode into two parts.

In Part 1, we dive deep into Marcia’s story and her perspective on the origin of the self-help movement… including a crazy concoction of both genuine breakthroughs and psychological manipulation that shaped the industry.

Specifically, we explore:

• How as a hungry 20-something, Marcia “accidentally” stumbled into the very first EST seminar because of a free hot dog and ended up filling 10,000+ person stadiums and putting EST on the map.
• What it was actually like behind the scenes of EST: the brilliance, the breakthroughs… and the darker practices that pushed people to their psychological limits
• How even the most noble visions to “save humanity” can spiral into manipulation, control, and cult-like dynamics once ego and power enter the equation — and what Marcia learned from watching that unfold firsthand

If you’ve ever been impacted by personal growth work in any form — from Tony Robbins to Landmark to modern-day coaching — this is a must-listen.

Marcia’s story (and her new book: Sex, Power, and Transformation) gives you a front-row seat to where it all began.

Show Notes Generated With The Help of AI!

00:00 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today's guest, Marcia Martin

Brandon Fong introduces Marcia Martin, a pioneering figure in the personal development industry who helped build the foundation of what would become EST and eventually Landmark Forum. He outlines her significant influence, from helping launch Tony Robbins’ Unlimited Power to working with Jack Canfield on The Secret, the Hoffman Process, and more. Brandon also highlights key themes to listen for—transformation, manipulation, and the evolution of the self-help movement.

00:39 - Marcia reflects on building EST from 30-person seminars to 800,000 graduates

Marcia gives an early glimpse into the astonishing growth of the movement—from a small seminar in 1971 to nearly a million people impacted by the end of the decade.

01:41 - From paper files to global influence: Marcia's impact beyond EST

Brandon recounts Marcia's extensive influence in the personal development world, including helping global brands and being knighted for her humanitarian work.

03:21 - A sneak peek into three pivotal elements of the episode

Brandon teases listeners with three themes: the fateful hot dog moment that led Marcia to EST, the brilliance and psychological limits within the training, and how noble missions can spiral into manipulation.

05:03 - Launching into the interview: Brandon and Marcia begin their conversation

Brandon welcomes Marcia and praises her transformational memoir Sex, Power, and Transformation. Marcia shares how the book distills decades of her experience into a story of personal and cultural evolution.

06:06 - Marcia recounts childhood trauma and early family patterns

Marcia opens up about growing up with an abusive alcoholic father, sharing a traumatic story of him jumping out of a moving car—an experience that shaped her lifelong pattern of seeking approval and emotional safety.

12:51 - Hippie life, nude artists, and go-go dancing: Marcia’s colorful San Francisco beginnings

Brandon and Marcia discuss her adventurous early adult life in 1970s San Francisco, filled with communal living and artistic exploration.

13:16 - How a free hot dog led Marcia to Werner Erhard and EST

A humorous yet pivotal story: Marcia makes a protest sign for a stranger, accepts his offer of a beer (with a free hot dog), and eventually meets Werner Erhard through this serendipitous connection.

17:43 - Studying metaphysics with Aunt Gladys and discovering deeper purpose

Marcia explains how her spiritual studies with her aunt laid the groundwork for understanding transformation and led her to see EST as a vehicle for mass awakening.

22:55 - Experiencing Werner’s first training and joining the movement

Marcia attends the first-ever human potential training led by Werner Erhard. Rather than seeing herself as a participant, she views the experience as an opportunity to help bring transformation to the world.

24:41 - From 30-person seminars to selling out Madison Square Garden

Brandon fast-forwards to the massive success of EST. Marcia recalls being a key figure behind scaling the movement and filling arenas like Cow Palace and Madison Square Garden with thousands of people.

28:15 - Mapping the legacy of EST and the birth of modern personal development

Marcia outlines how EST became the genesis for many major personal development initiatives, including the International Coaching Federation, LifeSpring, and more.

31:15 - Teaching people what “transformation” meant for the first time

Marcia and Brandon reflect on how the word “transformation” was once foreign to the public. Marcia uses the metaphor of a caterpillar turning into a butterfly to describe the depth of personal change they facilitated.

35:37 - Selling encyclopedias and testing her commitment—Marcia's initiation

Brandon dives into a jaw-dropping story of how Marcia, newly recruited, sold encyclopedias door-to-door as a sales training exercise. Despite illness, menstrual cramps, and being jailed for soliciting, she achieves her impossible goal of seven sales.

46:47 - Pulling media out of thin air: Marcia’s radical persistence for a smoke-out event

Marcia shares how, when no media RSVP’d for a high-profile anti-smoking campaign, she bluffed NBC, CBS, and others into attending—leveraging one network against another in a brilliant maneuver.

51:24 - The “pit” and early EST psychological intensity

Brandon and Marcia discuss the controversial fishbowl and pit exercises—15-hour verbal confrontations that pushed participants to psychological breaking points, reflecting the darker practices in early transformation work.

55:42 - Tackling a trainee who ran from the seminar: extreme commitment culture

In a startling moment of loyalty, Marcia physically tackles a man who tried to flee a seminar—demonstrating the intense culture of personal responsibility and unwavering commitment within EST.

58:43 - The turning point: when ego and power crept into the mission

Marcia reflects on how the noble vision to transform the world began shifting into control and ego-driven dynamics. She candidly discusses Werner Erhard’s background, growing influence, and how internal misgivings surfaced as the movement grew.

01:03:04 - Fame, sex, money, and power: the temptations of transformation leaders

Marcia explores how personal development leaders—herself included—face enormous internal tests when fame and influence collide with personal integrity.

01:05:44 - Cultish dynamics and the cost of unchecked power

Brandon and Marcia examine the line between transformational leadership and cult-like control. Marcia shares her experience watching the mission warp as acknowledgment of Werner as “source” became mandatory.

01:06:31 - Closing reflections on self-responsibility and facing the shadow

The episode ends with Marcia emphasizing the importance of acknowledging both light and shadow in ourselves and our leaders—and how the transformational journey is never just one-sided.

Links & Resources:

• 📕 Sex, Power, and Transformation by Marcia Martin – Marcia’s memoir exploring the rise of the self-help empire
• 🌐 Landmark Forum – The modern iteration of EST
• 📘 Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill – Referenced as one of the foundational works influencing early EST principles
• 🔥 American Cancer Society’s Great American Smokeout – Annual campaign to encourage smoking cessation

A year into her coaching journey, Amy Birks generated a grand total of… 

$60.

Pair that with a big investment she made into a coaching program, and Amy ended up with a $36K loss that first year.

Fast forward 10 months later, and Amy is sitting in a Sedona hotel room with friends when someone feeling stuck with their business said, 

“I just wish someone would tell me what steps to take.”

Amy started asking questions — and within 12 minutes, a full strategy appeared in her mind like a Google Map.

Everyone in the room froze.

“Wait,” they said, “you actually see this in your head?”

That was the day Amy realized she had what she now calls her GPS Brain — the superpower that helps her instantly map people’s paths from confusion to clarity.

Having personally hired Amy, I’ve personally experienced Amy not only helping to save me 25 hours per month in my business… but she’s also helped TWO of my community members (we call them Castaways) in transformational ways.

She helped one Castaway identify a strategy that will help double her business next year… and in 30 days generated nearly six figures.

Another Castaway she helped save 35 hours per WEEK by transitioning some 1-on-1 work into a group format, with results pouring in one week later.

Amy’s brain is epic, and I can’t wait for you to learn from her on how to leverage her GPS brain to help simplify your business!

Show Notes Generated With The Help of AI!00:00 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today’s guest, Amy Birks

Brandon introduces Amy as a close friend and fellow Curiosity Island castaway. He previews three core takeaways from the episode: how Amy helped him save 25 hours per month, her journey from $60 in profit to a $64k week, and her nonlinear career path that developed her unique “GPS brain.”

00:39 - Amy discovers her “GPS brain” in a Sedona hotel room

Amy recalls a pivotal moment at a mastermind retreat when she spontaneously mapped out a full strategy for a friend’s business idea in just 12 minutes. This unlocked her realization that she had a natural gift for strategy and clarity — a turning point that redirected her entire business.

03:14 - Brandon highlights Amy’s incredible impact and bio

Brandon shares Amy’s background — from corporate strategy roles to consulting for the Dallas Mavericks — and the ripple effects of her GPS brain on the Curiosity Island community, including transformative results for Laura DeFranco and Jennifer Pear.

06:45 - Brandon compares Amy’s origin story to getting bitten by a radioactive spider

Brandon dives deeper into Amy’s strategic superpower. Amy describes how her mind visualizes strategy as a dynamic GPS map that forms through curiosity and inquiry, allowing her to chart efficient, values-aligned paths for clients.

10:42 - Brandon and Amy explore unconscious genius and how most people miss it

Amy shares how her strategic ability always felt so “normal” that she didn’t value it — until others pointed it out. She and Brandon discuss how people often overlook their most valuable gifts because they come naturally.

14:19 - Building momentum through intuition and simplicity

Amy explains how she asks questions to uncover clear paths for action, turning complexity into momentum. Her excitement and deep understanding of her clients’ visions fuel rapid transformation.

17:21 - From $60 in profit to deep personal alignment

Amy opens up about her first year in business, where she made just $60. She reflects on the internal judgment she felt and how she later realized that following her curiosity — even when nonlinear — gave her all the skills she needed.

24:23 - The $64,000 week: when alignment changed everything

Amy describes how simplifying her offerings and writing her book led to her most successful week. The big shift? Focusing on her own method instead of chasing other people’s frameworks.

29:47 - Challenging assumptions and uncovering what really matters

Amy discusses how she helps clients question the “shoulds” in their business. Using a real conversation at a dinner, she shows how reframing priorities and understanding where joy and energy come from can lead to smarter decisions.

35:22 - The power of the time audit and Brandon’s realization

Brandon shares how Amy had him conduct a time audit that revealed the enormous time cost of podcasting. This led him to radically rethink his approach, underscoring how a simple exercise can catalyze deep clarity.

41:10 - Tools for simplification and creating space to scale

Amy explains how she tailors her tools — like time audits, opportunity assessments, and team facilitation — to each client. The key? Emotional intelligence, curiosity, and values-based alignment.

43:45 - Using values to filter what to simplify

Amy outlines how she helps businesses prioritize based on their MIT (Most Important Thing), and how complexity often arises from fear and black-and-white thinking. Simplicity emerges from curiosity and alignment.

50:52 - A divorce, a daughter, and radical business clarity

Amy shares the emotional story of her divorce and the resulting 50/50 custody agreement. Realizing she’d only have half her daughter’s time, she completely simplified her business to be fully present during her custody days.

56:12 - The fear of losing everything and the journey into surrender

Amy reflects on the fear of losing her home and business post-divorce and how she went on a quest to "figure out" surrender. Ironically, the harder she tried, the more elusive surrender became — until she learned to stop gripping so tightly.

Links & Resources:

• Amy Birks' Website — Learn more about Amy’s work, offerings, and background.
• Episode 221 of Beyond Curious® — Brandon’s “Find Your Four™” episode mentioned throughout the conversation.
• Book: The Surrender Experiment by Michael A. Singer — Amy’s influential read during her personal and business transition.
• The Hustle-Free Business by Amy Birks — Amy’s book that helped her find aligned success.
• Scaling.com – The Science of Scaling by Dr. Benjamin Hardy — Brandon’s current favorite book on simplification and scaling effectively.

Today’s episode is… a little strange.

As the title suggests, I dissected an octopus.

But don’t worry — no nine-brained, three-hearted, blue-blooded sea creatures were harmed in the making of this podcast 🐙.

Instead, I brought back a dear friend and Curiosity Island citizen, Perry Knoppert — aka “Dr. Octopus” — the founder of the Octopus Movement, a global network of non-linear thinkers solving the world’s most unsolvable problems.

So what does it mean to “dissect” an octopus?

In this episode, I take Perry through my brand-new process called Find Your Four in 4,000 — where in just 4,000 seconds (about an hour), I use my curiosity + a custom GPT to help someone uncover the tiny slice of what they do (their 4%) that creates the majority of their impact and joy.

And the results were wild. 

Perry walked away with so much clarity that he even turned the insights into a manifesto for his life’s work.

Here’s why this matters for you: 

By listening in, you’re not just hearing an inspiring story from someone who’s making a big impact… 

You’ll also see exactly how this process works in real time — and then mirror it for yourself.

Normally, this is something I only guide people through inside my Curiosity Island community… but for this episode, I wanted to pull back the curtain and make it more accessible. 

Paired with the free workbook I created for you, my intention is that you’ll be able to apply the same framework to your own life — and start building in alignment with your 4%.

Show Notes Generated With The Help of AI!00:00 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today's guest, Perry Knoppert

Brandon introduces a special return guest: Perry Knoppert, also known as Dr. Octopus, founder of the Octopus Movement. Brandon sets the stage for a deep exploration of Perry’s 4% through a unique and immersive “Find Your 4 in 4000” session using AI, GPT, and real-time curiosity.

02:27 - Who is Dr. Octopus?

Brandon reads Perry’s full bio, detailing Perry’s transformation from homelessness to leading the Octopus Movement—a global network of nonlinear thinkers solving the world’s most unsolvable problems.

04:24 - Understanding the 4% Concept

Brandon introduces the “Find Your Four” concept and shares a free downloadable PDF guide to help listeners identify the 4% of their activities that yield 64% of their results, based on fractal applications of the 80/20 rule.

07:05 - What is “Find Your 4 in 4000”?

Brandon explains how he uses GPT, real-time transcription, and curiosity to identify someone’s 4% within 4000 seconds. This episode is a live demo with Perry as the subject.

09:39 - A Journey to Childhood: Perry’s Yellow Room & Grandmother

Perry vividly describes his first room with yellow walls and shares a heartfelt story of his grandmother—a WWII resistance member who taught him selflessness through humble, quiet courage.

15:01 - Building Weird with LEGO

Perry describes his chaotic, unplanned Lego building as a child. He reflects on the joy of creation without attachment and how “weird” was a recurring theme in his thinking and expression.

17:17 - Embracing “Weird” as a Compliment

Perry shares how he embraced his unique way of seeing and building things, which contrasted with others. To him, “weird” is a celebration of originality and difference.

21:34 - From LEGO to Life: Creativity as Flow

Perry discusses the emotional experience of starting from scratch and the energy of creating something new—an experience he describes as magical and inherently fulfilling.

23:06 - Becoming a Taxi Driver in China to Learn Culture

Perry recounts how an “impossible” idea—becoming a taxi driver in Beijing—led to the creation of a TV show concept that garnered attention from CNN and major media outlets.

27:13 - Reactions in the Taxi: Culture Clash & Humor

From a Chinese woman running away from his cab to pranking a Belgian police officer with a Chinese driver's license, Perry highlights his fearless attitude and ability to laugh at absurdity.

33:07 - Why People React to Him Strongly

Perry recalls a conversation with his psychiatrist who diagnosed him as “fearless.” This fearlessness often provokes strong reactions from others—something he’s come to understand and accept.

36:54 - Challenging Norms to Build the Octopus Movement

Perry explains how he started the Octopus Movement without structure or rules, proving wrong those who said it was impossible, and shares his philosophy about the limitations of thought.

43:17 - A Life-Changing Book and Rediscovering Creativity

Perry shares how reading "I Could Do Anything If I Only Knew What It Was" by Barbara Sher during a post-homeless period helped him realize the limiting beliefs he held, particularly around creativity and self-worth.

46:56 - Dreaming the Impossible: The Octopus Factory

Perry shares his dream of building Octopus Factories worldwide—creative hubs inspired by Andy Warhol’s Factory, where nonlinear thinkers gather, collaborate, and create without limits.

51:37 - Why the Octopus? The Power of Adaptability

Among many traits, Perry is most inspired by the octopus’ adaptability. He draws parallels between this and his life, especially during times of intense transformation and reinvention.

53:59 - The Gift of Homelessness: Seeing Through Perceptions

Perry reveals that homelessness taught him the difference between how others perceive you and who you really are. This powerful realization continues to guide how he views himself and others.

58:35 - You Are the Whiteboard

Perry shares a profound insight: that our identity is often constructed through the lens of others. True understanding comes from recognizing the empty whiteboard within, free from labels.

01:07:11 - Perry Defines His Current 4%

Brandon asks Perry to articulate his current understanding of his 4%. Perry describes himself as a “movement expert on nonlinear thinking,” emphasizing his role in creating spaces where thought, movement, and transformation collide.

01:09:24 - GPT-Generated Synthesis of Perry’s 4%

Brandon shares GPT’s synthesis of Perry’s 20%: “A playground of fearless curiosity, connection and creation,” outlining the specific conditions where Perry thrives—unstructured environments, communities that embrace weirdness, and freedom from judgment.

Links & Resources:

📥 Free Workbook: How to Build a Life in Alignment With Your 4% — A free downloadable workbook to discover your 4%, as mentioned by Brandon in the episode.

🌐 The Octopus Movement — Perry’s global community of nonlinear thinkers.

At 19, Anthony Englert thought he’d cracked the wealth code.

He was living in a million-dollar mansion, cashing checks from a hedge fund with 12% monthly returns, and feeling on top of the world…

…until his business partners accused him of not being willing to take enough risk, kicked him out of the company, and he lost everything — including his entire life savings and his closest friends.

It was a rock bottom moment.

But in a wild twist of fate… getting kicked out ended up saving him. 

Because just a few months later, he learned the truth:

He had unknowingly been part of a Ponzi scheme — and his partners’ betrayal became the thing that protected him from disaster.

But as crazy as that sounds — that near miss taught him the valuable lessons that eventually led Anthony to joining an elite team at Goldman Sachs managing $33 billion in assets.

Today, Anthony is on a mission to help entrepreneurs avoid the mistakes he’s seen made at the highest levels, and truly design holistic wealth… from the inside out.

We jammed on a LOT in this episode — but here are 3 things I especially loved:

• The “Lifestyle vs. Legacy” decision that will impact every other decision you make in your business
• Why increasing your profit isn’t the most effective way to unlock value in your company
• How to use F.A.S.T. thinking to make smarter business and financial decisions (without getting lost in tactics)

If you’re ready to start thinking like an investor — and design a life and business that outlives you — this one’s a must-listen.

ALSO...

I'd highly recommend taking Anthony’s curated financial assessment to reveal whether your current strategy supports long-term wealth or holds you back — and what to do next.

Select founders may be invited to a complimentary 90-minute session (no pitch, just value) with Anthony which is a HUGE value.

👉 Alfa Advisory Founders Financial Assessment

Show Notes Generated With The Help of AI!00:00 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today's guest, Anthony Englert

Brandon Fong introduces his friend and financial strategist, Anthony Englert. He highlights Anthony’s journey from surviving a Ponzi scheme to leading a Goldman Sachs team managing $33 billion, and now advising entrepreneurs through Alfa Advisory.

00:44 - Anthony’s teenage entry into real estate and how a Ponzi scheme taught him his first major financial lesson

Anthony recounts his first big “investment” at 19, involving a sketchy hedge fund, fraudulent equity banking, and a $125,000 check—only to find out later it was all part of a Ponzi scheme. His early mistake became a catalyst for pursuing real financial literacy.

02:17 - Why Brandon isn’t a “finance guy” and how Anthony made wealth building accessible for entrepreneurs

Brandon shares his past struggles with understanding finances as a business owner and how Anthony’s clarity and holistic strategy transformed his approach to money and business.

04:07 - Lifestyle vs. Legacy: A framework that will shift how you view your business

Brandon previews Anthony’s “Lifestyle vs. Legacy” framework, explaining how the type of business you choose to build shapes every other financial and strategic decision you make.

05:42 - Brandon reads Anthony’s bio and explains why he trusts him with his financial future

From Goldman Sachs to climbing Kilimanjaro, Brandon reads Anthony’s impressive bio and gives listeners a glimpse into his character, brilliance, and values as both an advisor and adventurer.

08:12 - “The Wendy’s Moment”: How a 7-year-old optimized a fast food order and formed a belief that money = happiness

Anthony shares a vivid story from childhood when he realized his family couldn’t afford $20 at Wendy’s. That limiting experience created a core belief that money buys freedom—a belief he carried well into adulthood.

11:19 - The real estate fraud that led to a mansion, a Porsche, and a Ponzi scheme

Anthony continues his story of mortgage fraud, risky hedge fund investments, and how his early financial missteps—and being voted out of his own company—ironically protected him from ruin during the 2008 crash.

18:00 - From self-taught finance nerd to managing $33B at Goldman Sachs

Anthony explains how he reverse-engineered his path to Goldman Sachs to get mentorship and hands-on experience after realizing that reading finance books wasn’t enough.

18:42 - How asking one question impressed a Goldman executive and landed him on the firm’s top team

Anthony recounts a pivotal moment when he pushed back on a high-level executive's request. His tactful curiosity earned her respect and ultimately changed the course of his career.

23:07 - What ultra-wealthy clients taught Anthony: Money amplifies who you already are

Managing clients worth hundreds of millions, Anthony discovered that wealth doesn’t solve internal issues—it magnifies them. He shares how broken beliefs about money persist, even at the highest levels of wealth.

30:02 - Making $8M a year and still broke? A private school tuition story that shocked Anthony

Anthony shares the true story of a client earning $8M annually yet struggling to pay tuition. It illustrates how wealth can be mismanaged if not strategically aligned—even among the ultra-wealthy.

34:01 - Climbing Kilimanjaro led to clarity: Anthony’s three-part filter for life and career decisions

A two-week forced break from Goldman gave Anthony time to reflect while climbing Kilimanjaro. The result: clarity on becoming an advisor, staying in finance, and helping others make smart decisions around money.

43:02 - Car vs. Airplane: Are you building a lifestyle business or a legacy business?

Anthony explains the powerful metaphor between cars (lifestyle business) and airplanes (legacy business). This distinction is the foundation for how entrepreneurs should approach business design and wealth building.

49:57 - The F.A.S.T. Framework: Make smart financial decisions without getting lost in the noise

Anthony introduces his FAST framework:

• Filter – Define your vision and success criteria
• Alignment – Make sure your decisions match who you are and what you want
• Strategy – Create a strategic path to your goals
• Tactics – Only then pick the right tools and tactics

This flips the typical entrepreneur approach that starts with tactics and ends in overwhelm.

55:16 - Why chasing shiny tactics might only increase profit by 2%

Anthony gives an example of a client who spent 3 months implementing a trendy strategy that only moved the needle by 2%. Without the FAST framework, entrepreneurs risk wasting time on low-leverage moves.

01:00:02 - Stop waiting for the money to feel free—what if you could just ask for what you really want?

Brandon and Anthony riff on the danger of treating money as an end goal. They explore how getting clear on your deeper desires—like living in Italy—can shortcut years of unnecessary grinding.

01:01:34 - Why life’s detours might actually be the real plan

Anthony reflects on how his most unpredictable setbacks (like being scammed at 19) were actually the universe aligning his path. He encourages entrepreneurs to stay open to unexpected opportunities.

Links & Resources:

• 🔗 Alfa Advisory Founders Financial Assessment – Take Anthony’s curated assessment and potentially receive a 90-minute session (no pitch, just value)
• 📚 The E-Myth by Michael Gerber
• 📚 The Alter Ego Effect by Todd Herman
• 🎧 Beyond Curious Ep. 76: Todd Herman Interview – Brandon’s conversation with the author of Alter Ego Effect
• 📚 10x Is Easier Than 2x by Dr. Benjamin Hardy & Dan Sullivan
• 🧠 Science of Scaling by Dr. Benjamin Hardy
• 📘 Zone of Genius – The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks

I’ll never forget my sophomore year of college, wandering the cobblestone streets of Sevilla, Spain, earbuds in… listening to something brand new to me at the time:

Podcasts.

One show in particular stood out: Entrepreneurs on Fire.

Hearing real entrepreneurs talk about building businesses that made an impact felt revolutionary compared to the dry, theoretical lectures I was getting in class. It was like discovering a portal into the life I knew I wanted.

Fast forward almost a decade…

Selena Soo (episode #242) invites me into one of her curated “Rich Relationships” mixers, and I find myself in a breakout room with Kate Dumas — the heartbeat of EO Fire.

If you don’t know, EO Fire is one of the most downloaded business podcasts (175M+ downloads), hosted by John Lee Dumas. 

But what many people don’t see is that behind the scenes, Kate has been co-building the entire empire with John… while also navigating a romantic relationship, cross-country moves, and now raising a kid together.

To date, EO Fire has generated $28M+ in revenue while impacting millions — and their relationship all started with Kate meeting a sweaty John while in his boxers in the middle of an Insanity workout (hilarious story you’ll hear on the show.)

In this episode, we go deep on:

🔥 What it’s really like to build a multimillion-dollar business with your life partner with two OPPOSITE skillsets

🔥 How Kate went from feeling invisible to launching her own show and stepping into her power

🔥 Why they intentionally scaled back from 8 employees to 3 — and what it taught them about freedom

Whether you’re in business with your partner, thinking about it, or just curious how 175M downloads happen behind the scenes…

This episode will give you a rare look into what makes it all work.

Show Notes Generated With The Help of AI!00:00 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today's guest, Kate Erickson Dumas

Brandon opens the episode with a heartfelt welcome and shares a personal story about his early exposure to podcasts, specifically "Entrepreneurs on Fire" (EO Fire). He introduces today’s guest, Kate Erickson Dumas, as the co-builder and operational force behind EO Fire, a business podcast with over 175 million downloads and $28M+ in revenue.

00:36 - A hilarious first encounter: boxer shorts and insanity workouts

Kate recounts the unforgettable moment she met her now-husband John Lee Dumas—he answered the door in boxer shorts, mid-insanity workout, to show her an apartment. This funny and awkward first meeting would eventually blossom into a powerful romantic and entrepreneurial partnership.

02:17 - Behind the scenes of EO Fire: a podcasting empire co-built with love

Brandon shares how he met Kate through a breakout room in Selena Soo's mixer and highlights EO Fire’s success and transparency, including monthly income reports. He introduces the key themes of the episode, including working with a romantic partner, stepping into personal power, and pivotal business decisions.

06:35 - Launching Kate’s Take: from invisibility to intentional leadership

Kate opens up about joining EO Fire and feeling unsure of her worth. She discusses a life-changing transformational training in LA and how it helped her overcome feelings of invisibility. Launching her podcast "Kate’s Take" became a powerful declaration of self-worth and a major growth milestone.

12:30 - The meet-cute love story of Kate and John

Kate shares their love story—from awkward neighbors in Pacific Beach to long-distance relationship to moving across the country together. A spontaneous apartment tour, deep conversations, and a bold invitation led to a cross-country move and the start of something extraordinary.

17:14 - John’s leap of faith: quitting his job to launch a podcast

Kate reflects on the moment John emailed her with his plan to quit commercial real estate and launch a podcast. She recalls being surprised, but fully supportive—offering encouragement while still working her own marketing job. She also helped with branding and design during the early stages.

22:34 - The beach walk that changed everything

Kate revisits a critical conversation during a walk on the beach in 2013, where John asked her to officially join EO Fire. Initially unsure, she eventually decided to quit her job and bring her skills to the growing business—under one condition: they stay in their own lanes and work as equals.

28:10 - From supporter to integrator: designing your role in a shared vision

Kate discusses how she carved out her role intentionally, based on her passions and strengths—community, content, and operations. She shares valuable advice for other couples navigating similar transitions, emphasizing the importance of mutual respect, role clarity, and independence.

33:32 - Making big decisions together as visionary and integrator

Kate outlines how she and John make decisions with mutual respect, not ego. She describes tough calls like changing the podcast frequency and sunsetting old products. Their goal is always to serve the business and audience together—not “win” arguments.

38:26 - Behind the scenes of EO Fire’s explosive podcast growth

Kate reveals that the biggest factor in EO Fire’s growth was timing—launching in 2012 gave them a massive head start. She also points to John’s strategic relationship building with people like Pat Flynn and Tim Ferriss, and the compounding effect of being featured by them.

47:30 - Why sponsorships became their #1 focus

Kate explains the major shift in their revenue model starting in 2020. After trying to scale with a large team and executive hires, they reversed course and simplified. They doubled down on podcast sponsorships, which yielded the highest ROI in terms of money, time, and impact.

52:23 - Joining the HubSpot Podcast Network and simplifying operations

Becoming part of the HubSpot Podcast Network was a major turning point, boosting exposure and simplifying sponsorship deals. Kate shares how they trimmed team size, dropped underperforming products, and focused only on what truly aligned with their lifestyle and values.

54:56 - What happens if John stops podcasting?

Kate opens up about a reflective exercise they did with a business broker. They explored selling EO Fire and learned that without John, the podcast (and brand) wasn’t as valuable. Ultimately, they decided to stay the course and prioritize lifestyle over aggressive scaling.

58:36 - EOfire.com: the centralized hub for everything they do

Kate encourages listeners to visit https://www.eofire.com as the home base for all things EO Fire—podcasts, income reports, courses, and more. She also gives a shoutout to the book The Common Path to Uncommon Success by John Lee Dumas, to which she contributed.

59:26 - A full-circle moment: podcasting to change lives

Brandon reflects on how EO Fire helped him early in his entrepreneurial journey. He encourages listeners to share this episode with someone who needs inspiration, whether it’s about business, relationships, or stepping into one’s power.

Links & Resources:

• EOFire.com – Home base for the podcast, blog, courses, and income reports
• EOFire.com/income – Transparent monthly income reports
• Kate’s Take Podcast – Kate’s personal podcast on business insights
• The Common Path to Uncommon Success – Book by John Lee Dumas, with contributions from Kate
• HubSpot Podcast Network – Business podcast network featuring EO Fire
• Mastery in Transformational Training (MITT) – Training program Kate attended for personal growth
• Episode #242 with Selena Soo – Connector who introduced Brandon and Kate

Back in March, I hosted the first ever LIVE event for my community, Curiosity Island.

We hired my friend and Curiosity Island “Castaway” Bob Regnerus to produce the video footage for our event:

Click right here to watch the video

Why am I sharing this with you?

* Incoming humble brag *

If you listen to that video, there was definitely a theme in what the Castaways shared:

• “You feel like you're entering a Brandon world when you come into his space. It is warm, inviting, challenging, curious and so exciting in the best way.”
• “I've never met anybody like Brandon who takes creating experiences so seriously.”
• “This Curiosity island that he's created is so much more than a business or a brand or a mastermind… This is really an experience”.

The theme that I notice is World Building / Experience Design.

After designing several live events, hundreds of virtual experiences, and speaking on many stages, I’ve never actually sat down to ask myself:

“What am I actually doing?”

Meaning:

How would I actually teach someone about my approach to World Building?

When another Castaway, Meredith Grundei, asked me to come on her LinkedIn live show to talk about it… it was a perfect excuse for me to actually teach my approach.

So after several hours of GPT biking and playing around, I arrived at this:

To design transformational experiences, have your MOM make a WAFFLE 👇

MOM is an acronym that stands for the 3 phases of an experience…

While WAFFLE is an acronym for the 6 keys to make an experience stick.

Whether you run events, lead a community or team, create content, or just want to inject more magic into your daily life… this one’s for you.

Show Notes Generated With The Help of AI!00:00 - Introduction to Beyond Curious and today's guest, Meredith Grundei

Brandon introduces the episode as a unique hybrid format: a collaborative conversation with friend and Curiosity Island castaway, Meredith Grundei. The focus is on designing transformational experiences, anchored by Brandon's custom "Have Your MOM Make a WAFFLE" framework.

00:57 - The MOM and WAFFLE Framework: A Sneak Peek

Brandon sets the stage for the framework he created to help people design memorable and magical experiences. The acronym “MOM” (Momentum, Open Loops, Memory) and “WAFFLE” (World, Anchors, Fusion, Flaws, Language, Emotion) serve as the episode’s central theme.

03:24 - Meredith Welcomes Brandon & Introduces the Speaker's Lounge

Meredith welcomes Brandon to the Speaker’s Lounge, her monthly conversation series. She invites him to share the origin story of Curiosity Island, the imaginative community he leads.

04:29 - The Birth of Curiosity Island: A Domain Bought in a Flash

Brandon recounts a pivotal Zoom call with his friend Vlad where the phrase “Curiosity Island” was coined—and how he immediately bought the domain. He explains how the name gave conceptual structure to his vision of a place filled with wonder and transformation.

06:16 - What is Curiosity Island? A Transformational, Imaginative Community

Brandon describes Curiosity Island as a place of infinite possibility—“mirrors, not mentors”—where castaways help each other uncover their gifts. Meredith adds how impactful it’s been for her, especially through the “Breeze Offer” concept.

08:45 - Why Presentations Need to Become Experiences

Both Brandon and Meredith discuss how modern audiences are no longer captivated by static presentations. With content overload, the key differentiator becomes experience—one that captures emotion, connection, and fun.

11:02 - The Difference Between Corporate “Immersion” and Real World-Building

Meredith draws a contrast between truly immersive theater and corporate attempts at “immersion.” Brandon adds that true immersion requires world-building, not just surface-level add-ons like selfie stations or post-it boards.

14:28 - Clarifying Audience Participation to Eliminate Confusion

Meredith raises the importance of setting clear “rules of engagement.” Brandon connects this to the MOM framework, emphasizing the need to intentionally onboard participants so they understand their role in an experience.

17:43 - Brandon Introduces the MOM & WAFFLE Framework with Slides

Brandon shares the full breakdown of his framework: Momentum, Open Loops, Memory, and WAFFLE: World, Anchors, Fusion, Flaws, Language, Emotion. He begins explaining how each component contributes to the design of a sticky experience.

21:16 - How to Emotionally Design a World: Islands and Bonfires

Brandon shares how Curiosity Island and Curiosity Bonfires each began with specific emotional goals—play, wonder, connection. He explains how identifying the emotion helped him design immersive worlds aligned with those feelings.

23:18 - Anchors and Insider Language: Making It Real

Brandon describes how he brainstorms tangible “anchors” (e.g., sand, bottles, fire, s’mores) to make worlds feel authentic. He also talks about using insider language like “castaways” and “breeze offers” to deepen immersion and shared identity.

28:14 - Gamified Objects & Physical Props: Sunglasses, Bottles, and Puzzles

Meredith and Brandon dive into the physical props used in Curiosity Island to anchor the experience: sunglasses with passport numbers, hard-to-open message bottles, and even puzzle kits. Every item is infused with meaning and intentionality.

30:05 - The Power of Flaws: Why Imperfection is Memorable

Brandon explains the importance of “flaws” in experience design, especially in the age of AI-perfected content. Whether it’s chocolate on your face in a GIF or a frustrating bottle to open, intentional flaws add humanity and memorability.

36:33 - Keeping the Story Going with Open Loops

Brandon demonstrates how “open loops” create curiosity by not revealing everything at once. He uses the example of citizenship quests on Curiosity Island and a package that must be unlocked progressively to maintain excitement.

38:10 - Memorable Endings: Citizenship Ceremonies & Final Gifts

To reinforce the “memory” aspect of MOM, Brandon shares how the most unforgettable moment for many castaways is the citizenship ceremony and receiving their passport. Ending strong matters—and he makes it magical.

39:00 - Meredith Sends Her Mom a Video Message (Live on Air)

In a spontaneous and heartfelt conclusion, Meredith sends a video to her mom, Suzanne, promising to make her waffles—tying the episode’s theme back to family and warmth.

44:49 - Beyond the Stage: Experience Design in Everyday Micro-Moments

Brandon urges listeners to apply experience design beyond presentations: email signatures, Zoom calls, music choices, and even LinkedIn bios. Every touchpoint is a chance to build your “world.”

47:10 - Passwords & Marshmallows: Micro-Experiences That Delight

Brandon shares stories about Steve Sims, who used silly passwords to set the tone for nightclub entries. He ties this back to virtual events—like his Zoom breakout “teleportation” jokes—as ways to elevate even small moments.

49:55 - Final Thoughts: Create More Joy with Simple Questions

Brandon concludes by encouraging listeners to ask one simple question more often: “What might I do here?” With that curiosity, any moment can become magical.

51:19 - Improvised Exit: One-Word-at-a-Time Story About a Chicken Named Todd

In a final act of playful improv, Meredith and Brandon co-create a ridiculous story about Todd the chicken who eats too much sugar and invites his mom to Thanksgiving. A perfect, light-hearted ending.

Links & Resources:

• 🎥 Video version of the episode with slides & visuals
• 🧠 Meredith Grundei’s Speaker Lounge: Hosted first Mondays monthly at 12pm ET
• 📚 Recommended book by Yukai Chou: Actionable Gamification: Beyond Points, Badges, and Leaderboards
• 🎙️ Tribute Episode to Steve Sims: Available on the Beyond Curious podcast feed