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Christian Financial Perspectives episodes

August 15, 202082 – Are Rental Homes a Good Investment
Click below to listen to Episode 82 – Are Rental Homes a Good Investment?
Are Rental Homes a Good Investment?

Learn about the top 10 risks associated with rental property income.

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What’s the other side of the story to all of those remodeling shows? You see the happy couple working hard to update a property for a vacation rental home in order to make a little bit of extra income. Sure, there are benefits to flipping a house or property for rental, but you never hear about the downsides. Have you ever thought about why there are always hundreds of vacation property resales in the most beautiful vacation spots?
People like the idea of having rental property as investment income because it’s a tangible asset that you can see, feel, and walk around. However, many times, the risks far outweigh the benefits, especially if you are looking at rental property as a form of passive income. Instead of a rental property making money for you, you can actually end up losing money.
There are many risks associated with rental property income, and Bob covers the top 10 risks of vacation rentals and home rentals in this episode:
Maintenance and Repair Risk
Renter Risk
Income Risk
Liquidity Risk
Tax Risk
Location Risk
Time Risk
Market Risk
Weather RiskLongevity Risk

GUEST: Bailey Theaker
HOSTED BY: Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®
Mentioned In This Episode

Christian Financial Advisors
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Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®

Bailey Theaker

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[INTRODUCTION]
Welcome to “Christian Financial Perspectives”, where you’re invited to gain insight, wisdom and knowledge about how Christians integrate their faith, life and finances with a Biblical Worldview. Here’s your host Christian Investment Advisor, Financial Planner, and Coach, Bob Barber.
Bob:
Welcome to today’s podcast where we’re going to be talking about rental homes, and is that a good investment? And it really depends on a lot of factors. One of the things is, with all the TV programs, I know in my family, we have HGTV showing constantly. My wife loves it, or the DIY Network. And we see all the beach, front properties, and we love watching these and it gives us ideas. But one of the things that you’re always hearing is the good side and the positive side, and I’m a positive person. I like that, but when it comes to actually putting money in real estate, I think both sides need to be explored. And we’re going to explore that today. I have a new person that I’m bringing in on the podcast with me. The Lord sent her to me. Her name is Bailey Theaker. She came over here from Houston to New Braunfels, and I’ll tell you what. It’s really cool how the Lord brought us together. Her husband and her are starting a church in San Marcus up at Texas State University. When Kirsten, who worked here for so many years as our office manager, was going into the ministry and Bailey, you’re not coming out of the ministry cause we’re still in ministry here. So, tell us about that. I want to hear about that. Because our listeners have heard probably maybe 20 of our podcasts, or even 50 of them.
Bailey:
Yeah. Well, I’m so grateful to be here. I worked in a church on a church staff for around five years doing student ministry and worship and things like that, as did my husband. We both worked at the same church, and this past year, God called us to be a part of a church plant in San Marcos. And so, we picked up everything and moved here about two months ago. And we were really praying for a role for me because I knew that I wouldn’t be working full time for the church. This role kind of came out of nowhere, it felt like, and we had a lot of people praying for it. And then I interviewed with you, Bob, and with Kirsten, the old office manager. And you said during that interview, I feel like the Holy Spirit’s telling me to hire you, and I just cried on the phone. I’m grateful to be here.
Bob:
Well, I tell you what, it wasn’t but about five minutes into, and the Holy spirit was just hovering over me and saying, you better hire this girl – lady. I’m the old guy here, remember. You’re about the ages of my daughters. So you’ll end up becoming like a daughter to us. But one of the things was you’ve listened to the podcast and you made a comment to me, I guess, about three weeks ago. And I remember, and it really struck me. You said, Bob, you’re always interviewing others when you’re the expert.
Bailey:
Yeah, that’s true.
Bob:
You said, you need to be interviewed. I was like, well, that’s true. And a long time ago when I did my radio program for eight years, I had Renee Broughton here, and the Lord took her home. She had brain cancer and the Lord took her home, but she used to act like the person that’s listening today. I want you to do that because the person that is listening to our podcasts, they’re listening to gain insight. I want you, when you’re joining in on the conversation with me, I want you to think about, well, what’s that person who is in the car driving or right now they’re taking their walk and they’re listening to our podcast maybe on their smartphone, what would they ask? What would they think? I’m thinking that all of y’all that listen to the podcast, you’re going to like that because maybe, sometimes you’re like, well, how about this? So you just think of that.
Bailey:
Yeah. Well I’m young, I’m 26 and I just feel like I’m a sponge while I’m here. There’s a lot of things I don’t know. There’s a lot of things I want to learn about and want to know. And that was why I asked the question about the podcast earlier was I just thought, Bob, you’ve got a lot of good things to say. I would love to just sit down and ask you some questions. And so I’m going to have a lot of questions.
Bob:
Thank you. Thank you. Well, so we’ll get into today’s subject, which is about rental homes. Are they a good investment? And it really depends. I always like to start off with a scripture. I start every podcast with the scripture and this is the scripture for today that I want all of you to think about is Luke 14:28, “But don’t begin until you count the cost, for who would begin construction of a building without first calculating the cost to see if there is enough money to finish it.” And I’ll tell you, think about that scripture. And today, I think a lot of people, they go out and they buy real estate very quickly. They’ll buy that vacation home on emotion. They’ll buy that rental home because all they’ve heard is the good side of it. And there are a lot of pluses and there’s benefits. We’ll talk about a few of the benefits, but no one ever talks about the risk. I guess that wouldn’t be too popular on a program.
Bailey:
Yeah. I’m with you. I watch those HGTV shows all the time too. And it just looks glamorous and easy and like a walk in the park to just buy a house and rent it out and make all the money you can on it. And so I’m interested to hear what the other side of that might be.
Bob:
What are some of the benefits? What would you think? Because you’re watching these programs all the time, kind of like me. Think about the person who is listening to us today. What would you see as some of the benefits of buying a home? What would you think of immediately?
Bailey:
Sure. I would think of income first and that that would be the best way to make some income.
Bob:
The possible passive income, of course, real estate here in Texas seems to do nothing, but go up, up, up. So there’s appreciation that you would get. Another thing is, is like when people buy stocks or mutual funds or ETFs, they can’t feel it. They can’t touch it. Do you like to go home shopping? Walk into the houses? So that’s another thing, I think, people really like. You get to see it. You can go into a home that needs remodeling and you can picture, well, that needs new cabinets and that needs a new floor. You can see the before and after pictures. By the way, what’s one of your favorite programs that you watch on HGTV.
Bailey:
I like watching “Flippers”, and I will say with the rise of Pinterest and things like that, it makes DIY projects look so easy. Like, Oh, you have some wood laying in your backyard. You can rebuild the whole wall. And so, it just makes everything look so easy. And so that would be appealing to me in buying a rental property. It’s something that you could flip. And that looks really, really simple because you can do everything on your own now. But I wonder if it’s actually as simple as it looks.
Bob:
No. Things are never as simple as they look, believe me. I know from years of experience in that. My favorite is “Love It or List It”. The poor guy that goes and shows all the homes to them, it’s like 90% of the time he loses because they’re always going to love it. And you know why they love it. Have you ever thought about why they love it? I think it’s because of all the staging. They make everything so beautiful. Here he’s going and showing them all these houses while his partner is fixing this house up, and she puts all the white pillows and the white – everything’s white, by the way. Have you noticed that? They have four kids and are making everything white. That’s crazy. You’ve got two teenage boys and two toddlers coming up. Come on. But they do. I think people get caught up in that. And that’s why they always go, well, we didn’t think our house looked this good before, but I think we’re just going to love it. And the poor guy, he goes, I showed you five houses. One of them you love. I saw one the other day where it was like double the square footage. It was a nice, it had everything they needed, but they loved it. They didn’t list it.
Bailey:
Chip and Joanna Gaines, their show is wonderful. But even when you walk into their section at Target, I think I want to buy all of this, but I can’t. And so if our houses look like that, then sure. Yeah, I would rent that.
Bob:
We went up to Waco one day and went to their, I call it, their Disneyland where they have all those silos. It was amazing. I couldn’t believe how many people were there, food trucks, and everything. Have you been to it?
Bailey:
I have, yeah.
Bob:
Did it feel like a little Disneyland?
Bailey:
Oh, it’s magical.
Bob:
Another thing I think when people think of rental properties, they also think of vacation properties, and there is a benefit. We’ve had a couple vacation properties ourselves, knock on wood. I’m going to talk about the risks today. I got caught up in the emotion. I’ve done it. And it is a great place to build those family memories. We really thought we were going to do that. And then we’re always asking the kids to come down and they’re like, Oh, I got something to do this weekend or I’m busy this weekend. And I was finding that we had these beautiful vacation properties. We had one. We sold it, and we bought another one. And the last one we had was in Rockport. We sold five months before the hurricane came down there. So, I’m glad of that. But the kids came down like once or twice. So, we weren’t building those family memories like they always show you on “Beachfront Properties’. So those are definitely the benefits, but there’s also a lot of risk associated with owning a rental home or vacation home, plus all the costs if you finance, and I’m going to show you, this can really result in negative cash flow even with a 95% occupancy rate.
Bailey:
Sure. Yeah. And Bob, you’ve had the experience of being on kind of every side of this. You’ve been the financial advisor for people who are looking at rental properties, but you’ve also owned a rental property. I have assumed that you’ve rented things from people as well. And so you’ve kind of been on every front. So having done that, what would you say are the top risks for somebody looking into investing?
Bob:
Well, the main risk that I see besides just financial, but it does play in the financial is the maintenance and repair risk. That’s number one. And I’m going to be going through 10 of these risks. I do want to mention, today from the podcast, like always, you’ll be able to go to Christianfinancialpodcast.com and get a list of this because after today, that rental home that you’re thinking about buying – or vacation home – you may want to think differently after you hear, but the maintenance and repair risk. If you’re not skilled in carpentry skills, electrical, and plumbing repairs, it can be really costly. It’s costly to remodel, and it can be costly to keep up. The wear and tear on rental properties is constant. Now, if you have the skills to do it, that’s fine. But I tell you, when you call the plumber to come to your house before he even shows up, he says, I want a $100. Skilled labor today is one of the the highest paid professions. I’m starting to notice. I sit there in my church every year and I see all of these graduates come across, and they’re all going to college and then maybe one will come across that says, I’m going to be an electrician. I said, that’s going to be the rich one of the bunch. They’re all going to be hiring him to come. So that’s one of the risks is the maintenance and repair risk. Another one is renter risk. I just don’t think renters are going to take care of a property the way that the owner would. We saw that in our vacation condo that we had in Rockport. We couldn’t believe some of the things that we found. I told you some of those stories and I’m not going to share those stories here. I mean, it was crazy. And the things that went on while we weren’t there, and we had our neighbor telling us, too, “Do you know some of the things that are going on in your condo while y’all are not here and you rent it out?” I said, no. And they started to tell us, we’re like, oh no, we’re sorry. We did not know that. This is supposed to be our vacation home. It meant a lot to us. Now, if it’s a rental home, and it’s not your vacation home. You may feel a little bit different, but still you own it. And they’re not going to take care of it the way that you do.
Bailey:
We haven’t yet purchased a home – me and my husband – since being married. We’ve only lived in rental places. I’ve always said, why would anybody buy a house? Because if my dishwasher breaks, I just call the landlord and say, hey, come fix this. But I could imagine how those things would rack up with all the things that you have to take care of. And not only your own house now, but the house that you’re renting to somebody else.
Bob:
The water heater can go out. You have a hailstorm come through or a big wind storm blow all the shingles off. And now, you’ve got to go out and repair the roof. Now a lot of people are listening. They’re going, well I’ve had a rental home and I haven’t had any of those things happen. Well, I hate to say this, but just wait.
Bailey:
Yeah. And usually they all come at once. I hope you have a good savings account.
Bob:
Have you heard the old saying when it rains, it pours, especially here in Texas.
Bailey:
Well, Bob, I know that we live in kind of a new world with coronavirus right now. And so I’m wondering, are there any risks that are kind of multiplied because of what the new world we live in looks like.
Bob:
So this is the third risk of our 10 risk is the income risk. And right now with these COVID-19 laws, do you realize that you can just say, well, I’m not gonna pay my rent. And the law is going to stand behind you all the way until the latest here, I wrote this down, was til August 31st. So, they can not evict you. So you’ve got people that are renting a home to someone, and if the renter can’t pay the rent, you can’t push them out of there. And you wouldn’t want to, maybe it’s a family. You don’t want to do that to them. But what if you have a mortgage on it. Now, this really applies to those with mortgages like landlords with single family properties, with an FHA insured or Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac back mortgage, that these are the ones that cannot evict the tenants. They’re the ones that need to the most because they have these payments. So, if the tenants are not paying you, what’s happening, and it’s coming out of your savings. So, you better have a lot of cash reserves. You have that income risk, also that risk of income. Renters, they move around a lot. Maybe they’re looking to buy a new home or something like that. So maybe your normal renter’s going to stay in there for two years, three, or maybe just one. But during that time, like I’ve experienced here as an owner of the building that we make our podcast in. During that time, when a renter moves out, now you’ve got to find another renter, and there may be a month or two. You’re getting it cleaned up. You may have to go in and do some repairs where you’re not making anything.
Bailey:
Sure. I would think that that would be similar, too, for vacation properties, that people aren’t going on vacation as much right now, because flying is a scary thing. And or when things, like you said, you sold your home in Rockport before the hurricane, but I can imagine the people who didn’t. I mean, they’re losing that income, too, if anything ever changes.
Bob:
Yes. Well, we’re going to talk about that one. That is another risk on our risk of 10. So far, we’ve gone through maintenance and repair risk, renter risk, and income risk. Then, there’s a liquidity risk. People, they don’t think about that because in a good market, real estate is pretty easy to get rid of, but it’s not considered a liquid asset. In a weak market, it can take a good while to sell a home. And everybody’s thinking, when have we ever had a weak market? We have. We’ve had weak markets before. I remember right here in Central Texas in New Braunfels in the mid 80’s when the market dropped, and home prices didn’t come back for five or six years. The liquidity risks, too, is not just, you have to put it on the market, but it’s all of the fees associated with selling or buying. If you sell and you have to pay a realtor fee, title company and the title policy fees, recording fees, attorney fees, and a good rule of thumb to figuring all this is between 8-10% of the sales price. Well, when you liquidate say a stock or an ETF today, most of the trades are free. It’s not 10%, and that can be a high number. You have a $200,000 home or a $300,000 home that you’re selling. 6% to the realtor and another 3% or 4% in title fees and all the different fees. That adds up. All of a sudden you were selling for 300k and you’re getting 270k. That’s a huge difference. You’re also paying fees when you buy, and they call it the five year rule when you need to at least own five or six years just to break even. So maintenance risk, renter risk, income risk, liquidity risk. That’s four of them. So, the fifth risk is tax risk. And most people, they’re thinking there’s a tax risk. Well, I will explain this to you. So as an example, if you own a vacation property and you use it personally, the days that you use it personally are not tax deductible. Okay, so let’s say you have all your expenses that add up. Let’s say you rent that property for three months out of the year, and then you use it for three months out of the year. And then the other six months maybe it’s vacant if it’s a vacation property, because vacation properties are like that. They go with the peak seasons, but we’ll assume three and three, or even just five and five, or you use it five months and you rent it out five months. If that’s the case, you’re only going to get to deduct 50% of all the costs associated with maintaining that property, the property taxes and things like that, because you’re using it a percentage of the time. So you have to keep up with that. We’re halfway through on just the risk.
Bailey:
That’s crazy. I had never even thought about all the little details that could go into having a rental property. And like you said, I mean, one of the things that people love about it is that it’s a tangible investment, but there are all these kind of invisible things about it that don’t feel tangible, but then they’re there. And so I probably would have never even thought about those things. So it’s a little bit of a scary thought to think that you could be making income from this thing, but all of a sudden it’s actually costing you. And so what would be the next point?
Bob:
So, we’re going to head into our last five, and number six is location risk. I had my condo in Rockport, Texas, right? Remember I was telling you about that. Praise God I sold. I did not know the hurricane was coming, but did you know that that condo today is still not completely finished? We’re coming on three years now. It was three years ago. Had I held onto that condo, I would have not been receiving rent for three years, but I still had to make all the other payments. So there’s location risk, and weather risk comes along with that. That’s one of the risks there’s location risk and weather risk. Also, trends can really change quickly. You can be in a real hot area where everybody wants to buy. And then the next thing you know, it’s hot somewhere else. And the tax rates can change too, which takes you back to the tax risk. Oh, one thing I didn’t mention with the tax risk was the appraisal district is a tax risk. Appraisal districts love to come and reassess your property because they want to get more tax for the county. That can be a risk, too, under tax risk and under location risk because taxes can change and go up on you for that particular location. So the next one, number seven, is time risk. Have they ever talked about that one? Well, you get a salary here. You do. But think about what are you worth per hour? You just take what you’re being paid and divide it by 2000. That’s how many work hours are in a normal year. So someone takes the amount that they’re making. They divided by that number. That’s what we refer to as time risk. What is your time worth? Is your time worth at least $15 an hour or $25 an hour, because rental properties can be very hands on and get in the way of travel plans, family plans, and even leisure time, because it may really require you to be physically involved. But if you’re not and say, well, I’m not gonna worry about that. I’m going to hire it out. So, I’m going to hire it out. I’m going to hire a property manager, and I’m going to hire expensive, skilled labor to take care of it. If you’re not using your time, you’re having to use somebody else’s time. That’s going to result in a lower yield to your overall yield. We just got three more now.
Bailey:
Wow. So, okay, so that was number seven. So we’ve been through a lot of risks so far, we’ve been through maintenance and repair risk, renter risk, income risk, liquidity risk, tax risk, location risk, and time risk. And so now we have kind of the top three left. What would they be?
Bob:
We got three. I don’t know if they’ll be the top three or not, but they’re in there. It’s market risk, weather risk, and longevity risk. Market risk is that real estate markets could collapse. It kind of goes back to location risk where you’re so reliant on just one location, one property, and one unit. That market could go down dramatically. After the hurricane in Rockport, nobody wanted to buy real estate down there. It’s hard to believe that markets can collapse, but they can, and it can take many years for it to come back. Then we had the weather risk that I mentioned – the hurricanes, but there’s also flooding tornadoes. You’ve been hearing about the fires, again, out in California. Those people were losing homes. So you have fires, you have earthquakes. These are examples, and it happens all the time. And when you have that happen, it takes away the potential income. And then longevity risk in that renters are not obligated like an owner. They can move out with just a four to six week notice, and this can really eat into your profits. So, that’s the 10 risks of owning rental property and vacation properties. So now we have another area we’re going to go into for just a little bit.
Bailey:
Yeah, well, I know that you’re a numbers guy and I’m sure a lot of our listeners are too. Can you kind of break down the top 10 risks? It feels like a bird’s eye view of all the things that could go wrong. Can you kind of break down the numbers for us so that we can look at what the actual costs and income might look like?
Bob:
I sure can. And so what I did was a couple of days ago, I went on Zillow, and Zillow is kind of cool because you can find rental properties on Zillow. And of course you can find properties for sale. So I went on Zillow right here in New Braunfels and I pulled up rental homes and I got everything from $1300 a month on up to $4,000 a month. So what I did was I picked a property that was renting at $1500 a month. And then I went and looked at that square footage property. And I said, well, what would that property sell for? Here in New Braunfels, that’s about $200,000 – $230,000, even up as much as $250,000. So, it was kind of a range – 200k to 250k. I picked kind of in the medium, I picked 230k as a whole number. So I have this rental home property return worksheet.
Bailey:
Okay. And is that going to be available for our listeners?
Bob:
That will be available. I’ve been using this worksheet for many, many years, and I’ve had a lot of people that were looking at buying a rental home. But even if you’re not looking to buy, maybe you own one already. And you’re like, I can relate to a lot of the stuff Bob’s been saying, or you on that vacation home. I would invite you to get this because when you look at the yield, you’re going to be surprised at what the yield is. And quite frankly, I’ve never come across one, in all the years of doing this, where the yield was greater than 3-5%. Never. It’s not like what you think, because on the surface you look at it and go, all right. So, I did my research. I can go buy a home for $230,000 here in New Braunfels. I can rent it for $1500 a month. So I got $18,000 coming in. Well, immediately I’m going, well, that’s an 8% or 9% return. You want to bet? Let’s put the numbers to it. Okay. So what I did, I’m just going to go down this real quick because you’ve got to get the worksheet to really understand this. I’m going to tell you the cost I put in here. I put in what the average, annual maintenance cost is. I used about 1%. That’s the rule of thumb – painting, roof, repair, plumbing, electrical, heat and air, flooring, and general overall maintenance on an annual basis, about $2000 a year. Annual liability costs – you really want to have liability. So, if somebody’s slips and falls, you need to have a million dollar coverage so that you’re protected against being sued. That’s not much. That’s just about $250 a year. Then, I went and looked up on the appraisal district what the taxes would be on a $230,000 house in New Braunfels, $4,500 a year. Then property and casualty insurance, a good insurance policy, not one that’s not going to cover you, but one is going to cover you with the right amount of coverage, about $1200 a year. Then I just said, well, what if every one or two years, I’m not getting rent because it’s between somebody moving out and somebody moving in. So I took away one month of rent. That’s $1500. You notice I didn’t fill in anything on the lack of diversification costs, but that’s something you can think about. You have only one renter, one market, one location that must be factored in and natural disasters. But then I thought about, okay, you’ve got to also, if you’ve got to find a new renter once a year or so, you’ve got a little bit of marketing. Put a couple hundred dollars in there. And then what is your time worth? You’re collecting the rent every month and you may have to go out there and fix things. Are you going to having to hire somebody to do it? Or, you’re hiring a property manager. I put $1,200 there. So, this all added up to $10,850 and that’s if I’m not financing it, which gave a net profit on a $230,000 investment of $7,150 a year. You divide that into that number. And that’s a yield of 3.1%. 3.1%. You know that I went online right after that. I just went online and said, well, what if I could just buy an ETF? Electronic Traded Fund, a real estate ETF diversified across many different sectors, not just in single family real estate, but multifamily and commercial buildings, et cetera, everything. Liquidity, you can get in today, and you can get back out tomorrow. What would be the yield without any of this risk? Back to the 10 risks we were looking at. You don’t have the location risk. You don’t have the time risk, the maintenance risk, or the renter risk. Liquidity. You’ve got total liquidity. So, I was thinking to myself, why would I want to do that? I’m only getting 3.1%. Now, if I went and financed the property. So now, I took this $230,000. I figured financing at $200,000 at about 3.5% – 4% for 30 years, the monthly payments would be $954 a month or $11,457. I put that number in there. And now you add that $11,457 a year in the payments of expenses of $10,000. That adds up to over $21,000 – $22,000, and you’re bringing in $18,000, you’re negative cash flowing every year.
Bailey:
Wow. That’s way less glamorous than HGTV made me think.
Bob:
You’ve ever seen this before?
Bailey:
No. Wow.
Bob:
Looking at this over and over, and people might be asking, well, man, you sound like you’re pretty bearish on residential real estate. I am, unless you can really buy it right, and you can get a lot of rent for it. Because after you add in all the expenses and on top of that, I’m an old guy, I’ve been doing this for 30 years and I have met with so many people over the years, especially when they get about their mid seventies, they’re like, I’m done with this. I’m tired of this. I’m not making anything. I’m just going to let this thing go. I guess the takeaway is don’t believe everything you see on TV.
Bailey:
Sure. Well, Bob, can I ask you one final question? I’m going to kind of put you on the spot.
Bob:
Yeah.
Bailey:
So this would be the best for somebody who is maybe looking at a rental property to get. So, what about for our listeners who already own a rental property and they are experiencing now all of these expenses that they didn’t know were coming and it just feels really overwhelming. What’s a word of encouragement that you can give to them?
Bob:
The word of encouragement that I would give to them is sit down and look at all of this and sell.
Bailey:
Yeah.
Bob:
Especially if we’re in an up market, because there are other ways that you can make the same yield. I mean, nothing’s a guarantee in life and I gotta put a disclaimer here. if you go out and you buy a publicly traded ETF, there’s no guarantee you’re going to make money there too, because those can drop dramatically. And they did when the market dropped, where a lot of actual real estate properties, they haven’t dropped like that. But I would just really take a good look and sit down and put things on a spreadsheet and have somebody give you unbiased advice of that, because I love realtors, but they don’t have a fiduciary role in this. I’ve never had a realtor share this with me. I hope I haven’t gotten realtors mad. I’m not trying to get my realtors mad at me, but I’ve even talked to realtors about this and said, you need to disclose all the risk and you need to disclose all the costs. I don’t know if any have done it. Many times they’re like, you’re crazy. Let’s put everything in real estate. So, if somebody has a conflict of interest, because they’re getting a commission from selling that, I would look for fiduciary based advisor, a CPA. Really look for that fiduciary based that’s just not getting paid a commission by putting you into something that could give them a bias about it. Does that make sense?
Bailey:
Yeah. And a good place to start might be just printing out this worksheet that we have and filling it out and just kind of getting a big picture view of what things look like, but we’ll have this available on our Christian Financial Perspectives website. We’ll put it into the description as well.
Bob:
Absolutely. So, remember when we do the podcast, the whole script is there also, this will be right on there for you, or you can give us a call and I’ll be glad to go through this worksheet with you.
Bailey:
We’ve talked a lot today about residential real estate. Do you feel the same way about all real estate?
Bob:
No, I do not. I believe that land is an incredible investment. As the old saying goes that they’re not making any more of it, and land doesn’t have any of the renter risk. It doesn’t have all the maintenance cost to it. I also like commercial real estate because with commercial real estate, like the office that we’re in, you can do what’s called a triple net lease. That’s where your tenants are paying all the insurance and maintenance costs and taxes. So, that takes all that out of there. Maybe you want to sell that property. You are still making a 2% or 3% yield on the property as long as you don’t have a loan against it because if you’re negative cashflowing, that just doesn’t make sense when you add the loan into it. But there’s also appreciation of the property, and real estate has historically kept right with inflation. Here in the Central Texas region where we are, we’ve had an incredible bull run in real estate for 15-20 years. It just continues to go up, up, up and many times into double digit numbers. What we’ve talked about today is the yield, the actual yield, you know what you’re making, but then there’s the appreciation that can come later. I’m not against buying residential real estate for rental property reasons, but buy it right. You need to buy it for 20%, 25%, even 30% under market so that the numbers will work and you can get that yield up. Because the example I was using from Zillow was this is what those homes sell for. And we’re in a hot market here. We’re in such a hot market here in New Braunfels, in between Austin and San Antonio for our podcast listeners that are up in New York or out in California, but this is Central Texas, between Austin and San Antonio is one of the hottest growing regions in the United States homesnin that price range. People are lining up to buy them. A lot of times it’ll be a bidding process. So, it’s hard to get that kind of home at 25% or 30% undervalue, unless it’s really been beat up a lot. But then you got to go put the money back into it to bring it back up to par. I wanna put the disclaimer in here that I’m not against all residential real estate. If you buy it right, there is the part of appreciation. You get to also depreciate for tax purposes, which is a good thing, but you’re going to recapture that unless you do a 1031 exchange, and I can explain that later, but I like real estate and I’ve been involved in a lot of real estate my entire life and my dad was. So, I want to leave today’s podcast with I’m not down on all real estate, but when your yield is an average of 3%, why have the risk of one location, one property renter, and all that. When, like I said before, you can invest in a real estate investment trust that’s publicly traded. An ETF with expenses that are less than 15 basis points. 100 basis points is 1%, very low expenses. You’ve got liquidity anytime you want to move out, but you do have market risk, the stock market risk, because REITs – real estate investment trusts – they trade like stocks. So, you got to hold them, but just for holding them, you’re rewarded basically the same yield as you would be holding one real estate property in one location.
Bailey:
Wow. Well, thanks Bob. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. And like I said, I feel like I’m just a sponge just mopping up information, and so I appreciate you answering all the questions.
Bob:
You’re welcome. That’s all for today. Thank you.
[CONCLUSION]
That’s all for now.
We invite you to listen to all of our past episodes covering many financial topics from a Christian Perspective. To make sure you don’t miss any of Bob’s upcoming episodes you can subscribe to Christian Financial Perspectives on iTunes, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher. To learn more about integrating your faith with your finances, visit ciswealth.com or call 830-609-6986.
[DISCLOSURES]
Investment advisory services offered through Christian Investment Advisors Inc. DBA Christian Financial Advisors, a registered investment advisor. Comments from today’s show are for informational purposes only and not to be considered investment advice or recommendations to buy or sell any company that may have been mentioned or discussed. The opinions expressed are solely those of the host, Bob Barber. Bob does not provide tax advice and encourages you to seek guidance from a tax professional.
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July 31, 2020 81 – Important Decision Making Processes
Click below to listen to Episode 81 – Important Decision Making Processes with Ron Blue
Important Decision Making Processes with Ron Blue

Learn about Ron Blue’s 10 step process to aid in making important decisions.

More episodes >>

Have you ever had to make a really important decision and just didn’t know where to start? Whether it was moving for a job or deciding whether or not to sell a house, we all have been there. It is usually an extremely difficult and stressful time. Well, what if there was a decision making process that you could follow to aid in your choice? Lucky for us, there is!
Ron Blue has created a 10 step process concerning decision making so that you can have more confidence in the choices you make. Ron is the founder of Kingdom Advisors® and Ronald Blue Trust, one of the largest Registered Investment Advisory firms in the United States serving thousands of Christians. He is also the author of several books, including Master Your Money, God Owns It All, and Biblical Financial Planning.

GUESTS: Ron Blue, Founder of Kingdom Advisors® and the Ron Blue Institute
HOSTED BY: Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®
“Important Decision Making Processes” PDF Slides

Mentioned In This Episode

Christian Financial Advisors
Website

Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®

Ron Blue

Ronald Blue Institute
Website

Ronald Blue Trust
Website

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[INTRODUCTION]
Welcome to “Christian Financial Perspectives”, where you’re invited to gain insight, wisdom and knowledge about how Christians integrate their faith, life and finances with a Biblical Worldview. Here’s your host Christian Investment Advisor, Financial Planner, and Coach, Bob Barber.
Bob:
Philippians 4:6-7, “Be anxious for nothing, but in everything, by prayer and supplication, with Thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God, and the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” I love that scripture. It’s all about prayer and really laying our thoughts and all of life circumstances before God and letting that be made known to him. Today, we’ve got a really unique podcast. We’re going to be talking about wise decision making. I’ve got Ron Blue on with me from a presentation I heard at a Kingdom Advisors conference earlier this year. I think about really important decisions that all of us have to make every now. I mean, I’ve talked to several folks recently, they’re thinking about selling their house and they’re not sure what to do and should they sell it? Should they remodel it? Should they buy another one? I mean, that’s a big decision, or should I take that early retirement package? That’s really big today and going on a lot as companies are trying to figure out how to deal with this COVID-19. Should they just allow some folks to take early retirement? I get that question all the time. Another one, should we relocate to another state or city to be closer to family? I’ve got a couple that’s been with me for about 20 years right now. They live over in Houston and their kids live in Wimberley and they’ve got all their friends and their church family there. But as they’re getting older, that’s not another state, but it might as well be for them. It’s really a hard thing. These decisions are big decisions. Another one, should I take that better paying job offered to me? Or, how about this one? Should I marry that person? What a big one, or should I have that surgery? There’s just all these important decisions that come along every few years for a lot of us and can be really stressful when you think about what’s the right one. It can be difficult. It’d be sure nice to have some processes to follow when it comes to these really important decisions. So like I said, again, I’ve invited my friend and Christian brother. Many of you have known of him for years, Ron Blue. He’s been a guest here on Christian Financial Perspectives in the past. And I heard him speak on this decision making at the last conference. I thought it was such an important topic. We ought to have him on. For those of you that might not know Ron, he’s a well known speaker. He’s an author of many Christian books and Bible studies. He’s the founder of Christian advisors as well as Ronald Blue Trust, one of the largest registered investment advisory firms in the US, serving thousands of Christians. I came to know Ron many years ago. I think it’s like 20, 25 years ago. I used to hear him as a guest many times on Focus on the Family, and I’ve taught his Bible studies on stewardship many times. So, Ron, welcome back to Christian Financial Perspectives.
Ron:
Well, Bob, it’s always such a joy for me to spend time with you. So, I was delighted that we had this on the schedule and I am excited about the topic, but I’m more excited about getting to spend a little bit of time with you on the phone.
Bob:
I feel that way with you too, Ron. I mean, now we had some technical glitches this morning, but we got rid of all those. And as soon as you got on with me, I’m like, there’s my buddy. I just want to reach out and give you a big hug, but hey, that wouldn’t be allowed today with COVID-19.
Ron:
Well, that’s true too.
Bob:
So Ron, these important decisions, they can be so stressful and quite frankly, sometimes a little frightening because if you make the wrong decision, there can be some really tough consequences. You showed us this 10 step process for making decisions at the Kingdom Advisors conference earlier this year. I’d like you to share with our listeners, cause it really touched me. So, I guess we’ll just start with this first step and go through all 10 of them.
Ron:
Well, that would be fine, Bob, but it was really interesting because as you read through the decisions that people are having to make, we just bought a home within the last two months. I’ve helped somebody make a decision on a job going through this process and helped someone else on a relocation issue going through this process. So, very practical and very real and very helpful. And certainly the beginning point is prayer. I read in my quiet time yesterday, I think it was, we tend to kind of think our way through situations rather than pray our way through situations. So, prayer is the beginning. It’s the process. And it’s the end of good decision making. Our Lord said in his word in James 1:5, “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask.” And every one of these situations, we’re looking for wisdom. We want God’s will and God’s wisdom. Prayer is essential and it’s easy to forget about it, but it’s the beginning point, certainly, to the process.
Bob:
And looking into God’s word, because as you’re praying say, Holy Spirit guide me to some scriptures that can help me with this, I would think, too.
Ron:
Yeah.
Bob:
Cause that’s going to point you right to God’s word.
Ron:
Yeah. I’ve found over the years, as I prayed about things and then maybe during my quiet time, God will speak to me in his word. And I say, well, that’s the wisdom that I was looking for.
Bob:
It seems always that way, doesn’t it? At least with me, it does.
Ron:
Yes, it is with me too. So we have a God who’s for us, he’s with us, and he’s in us. So we need to talk to him.
Bob:
Ron, I know you’ve made this statement many times too, and I grabbed on it when you made the statement many years ago that “all financial decisions are spiritual decisions for a Christian”. And you think about selling your home and building that new one or should I take that new job. That reminded me of that, that we got to remember that every decision that we make as a Christian is a spiritual decision. That sure plays right into it. So that takes us, I guess, right into step two, you’ve got defining your decision. What’s the question? What do you mean by that?
Ron:
Well, a lot of times, we kind of mix some things up. For example, I mentioned helping someone make a decision. When they came to me, they talked about their career options. They talked to me about the fact that his wife would like to get back near her family, talked about joining another firm. So he had career, he had location, and he had specificity in terms of the job that he was going to take. So he had multiple things there. My challenge to him was you’ve got multiple decisions that you’re trying to make at the same time. So really, what’s the decision that you’re trying to make? And can you put it down so that you have many options? So, he ended up defining his decision as choosing my next job and then vocation and career and so forth became a part of the decision, but that was not the real decision that he was making. The real decision was what’s my next career move, and then he went from there. So he said, that’s really what I’m trying to decide. And there’s a lot of things that are a part of that. So, I like to say also, Bob, that if you don’t ask the right question, you can never get the right answer. Like Judy and I, we went through a process here where we moved and the thing that started the process was talking about – I’m 78, she’s 76. We’re both in good health, but if one of us is not in good health or if one of us passes away, what are we going to do? And then that led us to making the decision through the process of selling her home and buying another home, a smaller home than what we had. So what’s the question is the step that you begin the process with after prayer.
Bob:
I’ve never thought of it like this, Ron. As an example, I was talking about my client moving from Houston to Wimberley. It’s not just the move, but it’s the new house. It’s the new church. It’s the new friends. It’s the medical facilities. It’s a lot that goes into that decision. Somebody needs to go just buy a new spiral notebook and just start writing all this stuff down, I guess. Is that what you would recommend?
Ron:
Well, people fall into one of three, what I call, traps. The most significant trap that everybody will identify with is should we do this or not? So, should we move or not? And when you ask the question that way you’ve only got two alternatives and that’s called a binary trap. And we tend to ask the question that way. For example, I’m going to come back to the career decision. What’s the next best career for me or the next best career move for me? How many alternatives do you have? You got dozens and dozens of alternatives and your decision can never be any better than the best known alternative. So, the question that you ask is important. And then the second trap that people fall into a lot of times is you ask and somebody said, “Well, why did you do that?” And the answer is, “Because I felt like it.” Now, that’s what’s called the intuitive trap.
Ron:
And I hear that all the time is what are you going to do? Well, I feel like I… And then they complete the sentence, but what they’re doing is they’re allowing, then, the feelings to drive the decision and the feelings may be real or not, or they may be the wrong feelings. And the third trap that people fall into is the voting trap. I make my decision. Okay, I’m going to buy that Volvo. And then you go around and you ask people, what do you think about Volvos? And what you’re really doing is justifying your decision that you’ve already made, and you do it through voting and almost never will that work really well. So, defining the decision is avoiding the traps, the binary trap, the voting trap, and the intuitive trap.
Bob:
Oh man, there’s so many traps. Because I can see where, when you’re making this decision and you start asking everybody’s opinion, and then you just start going off on these rabbit trails over and over and over. And then when you start letting your feelings get all involved.
Ron:
For sure.
Bob:
Yeah. We better get down to the next step, cause we’ll just go off forever. That step three you’ve got is clarifying your objectives and what are the decision criteria? So, I like that – clarifying – because that’s where you say you could just go off on so many rabbit trails. You’ve got to clarify this thing.
Ron:
Well, every decision that you make, Bob, is an attempt to meet certain objectives, which is why you need to get the objectives down, and the objectives may compete with one another, but that’s okay because what I’m trying to do, like let’s take the job situation. Well, it’s the working conditions. That’s who my boss is. It’s the salary that they pay. It’s the location that it is. It’s the commute that I have. It’s a career opportunity. Many, many things that are important. And so you don’t try to make your decision until you have got written down every objective that you might have. I’m looking at something in front of me that my son used. I use this as an illustration. He ended up playing tennis at the University of Texas. He went through the process. So, he had objectives like the academics. Can I have a five-year MBA? The coach, what’s his ability to develop? What’s it going to cost to go to this school? What’s the tennis budget? What are the facilities like? What’s the team cohesiveness? Is there Christian fellowship involved? What’s the location? How close it to home? And on and on, he had like 20 criteria or objectives. And now he knew what he was trying to accomplish. You just write them down. And that’s where you take the notebook and you make the list. If I had the perfect decision, what would it look like? What are the criteria that would be met?
Bob:
You must be proud of your son to do that when he was just going to college. I mean, he’s doing stuff that I’m in my fifties, I wouldn’t think about it.
Ron:
Well, he taught decision making and Michael’s a process type person. He had like a hundred schools that had approached him to play tennis because he was a highly ranked national junior player. And so he had boiled it down. He had five schools, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Texas, William and Mary, and Alabama. And those were his top five that he knew just from the visit. So, how did he decide between those five? And that’s where he put down the criteria. And he had all of those things as criteria, but you jump into the step four, then. Not all of those criteria are the same. For example, there may be something in that criteria that are must haves, like it couldn’t have been no more than five hours from Atlanta. If that was a must have, well, that would have eliminated Notre Dame, William and Mary, and Texas. You’d only have Alabama and Vanderbilt to choose from. So, it was not a must have. It was a nice to have type of thing. So, what he did and what I recommend people do is look at each of those objectives and you ask, first of all, are there any must haves? And those are the most important, and that will eliminate certain of the alternatives when you have the must haves. That determines kind of who gets in the game and who is out of the game. For example, buying a home, less than $250,000 could be a must have. That immediately eliminates everything else above $250,000. But it’s the most important thing to you.
Bob:
Many times a home is not a must have, it’s a want to have.
Ron:
That’s exactly right. So, what he did is he established a value for each one of those criteria or objectives. And he established a value of someplace between 1 and 5. So he had two 5’s, three 5’s, and then everything else was judged in comparison to those three 5’s. And they established a value, if you will. His must haves were the academics, the coach’s ability to develop, and the total cost, those were his 5’s, but then he had others. Then he went through and he had tennis budget as a 4. The team was a 4. Christian fellowship was a 4. Location is a 3, and so forth all the way down to 1. And he’ll never live this down, but the last one on his list was women. He had a one on that one.
Bob:
Yeah.
Ron:
I was going to say, University of Texas, I was going to say, is it barbecue and good Mexican food.
Ron:
Well, but what that illustrates is anything can get on the list, but it doesn’t have the same priority. So, you make sure you got the list and then you start establishing values to those objectives. And you can have must haves, want to haves, you can establish a 1 to 10, 1 to five. However you want to do it numerically, but you prioritize the criteria or objectives, but there will always be trade offs.
Bob:
So we clarify, then we prioritize objectives. That was a fourth step and then the fifth step was identify your alternatives. I think you were kind of focusing on that as we were going through it. You’ve got all these different alternatives that you can look at. Now, some people, they may not have those alternatives, right? I mean, this job or that, or this home or that home, or is it a little deeper than that?
Ron:
Well I’ve got, and it’s hanging on the wall at Ronald Blue Trust, the three napkins where Judy and I sat down at an ice cream shop in August of 1977 and went through this process. She had a napkin and I had a napkin and then we had a joint napkin. We talked through what is the next career step for me? I wanted to make a move. I was in a ministry that I wasn’t being used with the skills that God had given me. So we defined it as what’s the next career step. And we listed all of our objectives – spiritual impact, lifestyle, free time, location, financial, travel, permanence of the move, and so forth. We listed all of those. We did all of this in a couple of hours at an ice cream shop. And then we went through and evaluated the criteria that we had, and set a value on it. For example, spiritual impact was our number one objective. We gave a 10 to that, but we also had lifestyle objectives, and that meant how much free time. We had location objectives and we said it either is Indianapolis or Atlanta. We had travel. How many nights am I going to be gone if I choose that career? Am I going to be gone any weekends? Because I’d spend about 70% of my time traveling for the prior two years when we did this. You prioritize your objectives, and that’s where the conversation really comes in. And you think of a couple of making a decision. Have we listed all the objectives that we would like this decision to accomplish and what are their priorities? And then you’re ready to begin thinking about the alternatives that you have. So, that’s step number five. But I kind of run all those together, Bob.
Bob:
Yeah. Well, you kind of do, but then again, you’ve got to run them all together. I mean, when you think about these steps, it’s not just necessarily step one, two, three, four, five. They’re all going to run together. I can see, as you’re doing this, because these are such important decisions that are being made. Like we mentioned at the beginning, a move or a new job, or that one where I mentioned that last one, that last one in the beginning was a surgery. I mean, that’s a tough one. Rachael and I were going to that a couple of years ago with her cancer. And we were having to evaluate this surgery is a very radical surgery that we had done. And that was a big decision. And which doctor. Did we choose the one that we were familiar with at MD Anderson?
Bob:
But there was another one that was right down the road from us in Austin that could do the robotic surgery, but we weren’t familiar with. We had to look at those alternatives. All this, I could see where it played into it. It was so stressful during that time having to make that decision, we prayed about it. We saw God open doors, and we knew we’d made the right decision. We ended up going with the surgeon in Austin that did the robotic surgery, which he did such an amazing, amazing job, but I could see where all this flows together, Ron. There’s 10 steps, but nine could be coming in at number two, but you’ve got to do them all to make the right decision, I would think.
Ron:
You do, Bob. And I think it’s important to stay in process. For example, the idea of step five is identify your alternatives. Most people start with the alternatives. They start, well, like you said, I could choose this doctor at MD Anderson, I could choose the doctor in Austin. Those are alternatives. But your first thing you need to do is kind of what is our decision? And then what are our objectives? I’m sure you had a lot of objectives on that surgery decision to type of surgery would be one of the objectives I’m sure you had, the hospital that you were going to choose, the location of it, the experience of the physician, how many times that they’d done this kind of surgery, and how experienced are they.
Bob:
Your naming every one of them. That’s right. If we were going through all of that.
Ron:
Yeah, that’s right. And then you say, what are my alternatives? And here’s another trap that people fall into is they look at the alternatives and compare the alternatives against each other, but they should be comparing each alternative against the criteria or the objectives. So doctor number one, you don’t look at it and say, he’s better than doctor number two for this reason. But what you do is you say, okay, doctor number one, he’s located someplace. He’s been in this business 15 years, he’s got this reputation, and location perhaps. So, you look at the alternatives compared to the objectives rather than trying to compare the alternatives against one another. So for example, in coming back to the tennis illustration, I said there were five alternatives that he was working with. Well, he wasn’t comparing Vanderbilt against Notre Dame, for example, or Notre Dame versus Texas. What he was doing was he was saying, okay, how does Vanderbilt meet my criteria? And what about the academics at Vanderbilt? What about the coach at Vanderbilt? What about the cost at Vanderbilt? So you see that he looked at each of the alternatives, but he looked at that in comparison to the criteria or the objectives, which is the process you want to follow. You don’t want to fall into the trap of saying, well, Vanderbilt’s got this. Therefore, that’s my best choice because there’s more than one got this, if you will. Anyway. So, you identify your alternatives. And remember this, that the decision that you make is the best alternative compared to the objectives. And here’s a couple of things to think about. One is that when you’ve made your decision, I’m not going to bring surgery into this one. But what happens if at some point you made the wrong choice? Well, then you go back and look at the criteria and say, where did I miss it on the criteria? I didn’t ask the right question, or I didn’t have the right criteria. It was really interesting with Michael because by Christmas time his freshman year at Texas, he was ready to quit because he hadn’t gotten to play as much as what he thought. So he had even applied to another school. He applied to Wake Forest, which is where his brother was. And so Michael and I sat down over Christmas and we went through the decision that he made to go to Texas. And as we looked at it, it still was the number one choice. He hadn’t missed it on his objectives. Those were still his objectives. And so it was still his best choice. So he went back to Texas and interestingly enough, one of the starters on the Texas tennis team got kicked off the team in January and Michael became the sixth man on the team. And he set a record for wins as a freshmen and ended up becoming an all American tennis player at Texas. And he almost quit. But because he had gone through this process and he knew why he went to Texas, he was able to stay there. He had made the right decision, and God worked out all the details. And he met a girl from Texas. Therefore, he’s still in Texas.
Bob:
I was going to say, I was thinking about that one all along, Ron. Did he meet that girl in Austin.
Ron:
He did, he met a girl from Waco.
Bob:
Oh, so good deal.
Ron:
Yeah. They now live in Austin and she’s a wonderful woman.
Bob:
And Michael, he’s been in my office several times for the monthly study group. What is so interesting, too, as I listen to this is that you keep mentioning, you went back and you looked at that and that’s the importance. You would think this would not be the case, but I have a feeling that so many people make decisions and they don’t go get that spiral notebook and write all this out. You were able to go back to that, you and Michael were able to go back to these are the reasons that you chose this. I also wanted to say like with Rachael and I and her prayer for her cancer surgery. I mean, her reason what we chose, it came back to prayer because before we even started to make this decision, Rachael was fervently in prayer.
Bob:
I was, too. The doors opened out of nowhere for this surgeon in Austin. And then we started defining that decision, clarifying, prioritizing, and looking at the alternatives – Houston or Austin and all those things that you mentioned. So, it all played into that. But you know what, Ron, we talked about it a lot. I don’t know if we really got a notebook and wrote it out. I’m sure we wrote it out on some paper, cause that’s the way I am. But folks that are listening to this today, if you’ve got a major decision like that, take these steps. And by the way, we’re going to put all these steps on the website so that you can see them and get that notebook and write those down. So Ron, where are we at? Step number six about evaluate. I know we went through that one.
Ron:
No, wait. We are at step six.
Bob:
We are at step six. Okay. There’s so much. This is so deep. Ron, nobody talks about this by the way. I am amazed when I heard you speak about this decision model, I have never heard anybody put it this way, ever. I’m glad we’re covering it. I’m glad you’re here to help me.
Ron:
I just went through the process with a fellow that used to work for Ronald Blue Institute. He called me. And he said, if we go through the decision making process, will you help us think this one through? And I said, sure, I said, sit down and you and your wife fill out the matrix because we have a matrix that you can fill it out. Step one, step two, step three, because his wife wanted to move nearer to her twin sister in Kansas. He had a retirement package that was being offered to him by his current employer. He had opportunities to take that retirement package and then go to work for somebody else, but where do they go to work? And what are the important things? We worked through that and I had several telephone calls with him. He ended up making, what I felt like, was by far the best decision for him. So he’s taking a retirement package. He’s staying in Indiana because he has a lot of contacts there. And he’s going to work with a firm that will develop him professionally, but he didn’t even have that firm on his list as an alternative when he went through the process. What you do is you look at each one of these alternatives and you look at them compared to your criteria and give them a value. Every one of them may have a five when it comes to academics. Maybe every one of them has a five when it comes to the coach. So there’s no elimination there, but it says that I’ve got five schools here where the ability of the coach is strong enough to develop me. The interesting thing was the only one – he had all academics and they all had a five with the exception of Alabama. So, any Alabama people listening, things have changed, though, since coach Saban got there in terms of the academics, even, at Alabama. So, so what are the facts? Give it a value. And now if you add up the score of each one of the alternatives, you’re at step seven. You’ve got a preliminary decision. So, staying with the tennis illustration, Vanderbilt had a 33; Notre Dame a 27; Texas a 41; William and Mary a 26; and Alabama 26. Well, clearly Texas was above the rest of them by quite a bit. The only thing that it didn’t rate high on was it was more than five hours away from Atlanta. And he wasn’t sure whether he would get to play his first year. Other than that, it met every criteria that he had. So, it became an obvious choice. And so that was a preliminary decision and that was step number seven, but then you’ve got a step eight. So, if you’re ready to go to step eight or we can stay at step seven.
Bob:
What could go wrong?
Ron:
That’s right. Step eight was what could go wrong. What’s the worst thing that could happen? And the only one that you asked that question of is the choice that you’ve made. You don’t even ask it for the rest of them, because you’ve already made a preliminary decision. Assessing the risk is really an important part of life, if you will. I counsel a lot of people when they’re doing estate planning, for example, and they’re making the decisions like how much their children are going to get. You have to ask the question, well, what’s the worst thing that can happen?
Bob:
So you’re saying Ron, there’s always going to be risk.
Ron:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Bob:
You’re not going to take away the risk. The risk is always going to be there. It’s just minimizing that risk as much as possible.
Ron:
Let me go back to the decision that Judy and I made. Both of us, individually, kind of ranked the alternatives. We had five alternatives. We had four alternatives to begin with. We could go to Africa with Campus Crusade. We could go to their headquarters at Arrowhead Springs at that time in California. We could stay where I was with the ministry, or I could go back to Indianapolis with the CPA firm. And both of us when we evaluated our alternatives, the best alternative was to go back to Indianapolis and rejoin the CPA firm, until we got to step eight. We said in step eight, we said, what is the worst thing that could happen if we go back to Indianapolis, even though it met most of the objectives that we had? Well, the worst thing that could happen was that we could get back into a materialistic lifestyle that we had left. And when I left my CPA firm, I was making over a hundred thousand dollars. I was a millionaire by the time I was age 35, and I walked away from the salary and the value in the firm to join the ministry. And we said, if we go back, we could fall into the same lifestyle that we had come out of and we could lose one or more of our children to materialism.
Bob:
Right. Wow.
Ron:
And so we said, well, okay, that’s the worst thing that can happen. And then the second question was, well, how serious is that? And we said, that’s really serious. And the third question that we asked when you’re assessing the risk is what is the probability? So, let’s take an airplane. Let’s say, how am I going to get from San Antonio to Austin. I could take my car, I could walk, I could ride a bike, but yet somebody offered me their private plane to fly me up there. Which one should I choose? Okay, well I choose the airplane. Well, what’s the worst thing that could happen. Well, the airplane could crash. Well, how serious is that? That’s really serious. But the third question then is, well, what’s the probability? And the probability of that is so small that it’s not very risky. It’s serious, but it’s not very risky. In our particular case, the probability of losing one or more of our children to materialism was very serious. The probability of it was very high. It was so high that we said, we’re not going to do that. And then, and here’s something that is really important, I think, is what we did is because we had listed all of the criteria effectively, we designed a job and the job we designed became Ronald Blue and Company. It was at the encouragement of Dr. Howard Hendricks from Dallas Seminary, who had asked me today to look at his finances. But now, I knew what was important. I designed a decision given the criteria. For example, we said, we can start a financial consulting firm. I had the experience that I could do that, but I’m not going to travel more than two nights a week at the most. And it got down to the point, what did we mean by travel? And if I was not home by six o’clock for dinner, it was a night gone. So I designed my trips that I would leave after breakfast, for the most part. And I would be home before dinner the next night. So, I was gone what would normally be considered two days, but I missed one dinner and one breakfast. We got down that far in our thinking because we knew what was important to us. We knew that if I was gone a weekend, the rule was I didn’t travel the week before or the week after. So anyway, because we had the criteria, we were able to design the job. One of the other things that I did, Bob, was I said, I will never bring work home. I will always be home by six o’clock for dinner. I will not ever work on the weekend unless I’m traveling. So that meant that I could only work about 50 hours a week.
Bob:
I’ve had the same thing in my own life. In this industry, people want to meet you at night. Finally, I said, that’s not going to happen because I’m going to be there for my children. People kind of accused us all around here. Y’all are like the leave it to Beaver family. And we were, and we always we had all our meals together and we turned the TV off and put the cell phones aside and had great times. A lot of their friends loved to come over for that. Ron, what I was thinking, too, you’re talking about your wife a lot. And of course, Rachael and I have been married 35 years, a long time too. You’ve got to make sure when you’re making these decisions that that both of you are on the same page. I could see where there could be some where both spouses are not on the same page and you’ve got to backup at that point, I would think, and do some reassessing.
Ron:
Absolutely. In fact, that could be one of your criteria. We both have to be in agreement on the decision, which gives either one of you the power to veto the decision. But that’s the way it’s supposed to be. Again, Dr. Hendricks always said, God didn’t give you a spouse to frustrate you, but to complete you.
Bob:
That’s good. That’s good. So, we’re down to our last two steps of making a big decision. That’s making that final decision and then this is interesting, testing it. So, you make that final decision. This is what we’re going to do. And then you test it. Now, wait a second. Shouldn’t you test it before you make the final one. I mean, I’m looking at these. I’m going, they’re kind one in the same in a way. I mean, I would think you’d want to test it first, but tell us what you mean by that.
Ron:
Well, is it confirmed by God’s word? That’s the first test, really. Do I have a promise from God that affirms this decision and the idea of husband and wife agreement is a test of the decision. You could get somebody’s opinion. At this particular point, you could ask a person’s opinions, but you’ve made your decision. All you’re really wanting to do is to find out is there some risk that I’ve forgotten about?
Bob:
Something that I have not heard you talk a lot about is asking other people’s opinions. I can see where you’ve gotta be careful that cause you can sure get a lot of opinions. Do you need to be very careful of that when you’re making a decision, is asking other people’s opinions? Cause you’re sure get a lot of different ones.
Ron:
Well, you can ask their opinion. It’s like this guy that called me. He wanted my opinion, but he also knew the process. And I said, I’ll give you my opinion when you go through the process.
Bob:
Okay. Well, 9 out of 10 people you ask, Ron, they’re not going to have a process.
Ron:
That’s exactly right, but I had his matrix in front of me and I had talked to him two or three times. To me, the decision became obvious as he went through it, but it took him probably a month to make the decision. He was offered a job in Kansas city that he had to go evaluate, which was within an hour of where his wife’s twin sister lived. So, there was a strong pull towards Kansas City, but because he had his other criteria, he didn’t have the career opportunities in Kansas City that he did in Indianapolis. And that was so important that they chose to take the early retirement and go to work in Indianapolis for a firm. So getting opinions, what you want to make sure that you’re doing is you’re letting the people help you think through your criteria. When they know your criteria, then they can give you some objective advice on it. For example, the question of the surgeon that she picked. Let’s say you went through the process, you picked the surgeon, and now you want to test that. One of the things you would probably test is what references do they have? What experiences do they have? Do I know anybody else that’s gone through that surgery with them and what was their experience? You do get other people’s opinion, but you don’t start there. You end there. You want to make sure you know what you’re doing first. And then you end with maybe getting some people’s opinions.
Bob:
Wow. We’ve gone through a lot. There’s a lot to this, Ron. I was telling you before we started today, you need to write a book on this. And he said, well, this is in several of your books. One that you wrote called “Faith Based Finances”. This step process is in there.
Ron:
Yes.
Bob:
Okay. All right. So that’s one, was there another one of your books you put this in there, too?
Ron:
Well, “Master Your Money” was the first book I wrote. And in reality, I built the financial planning firm using the decision making process. And the advice that we gave, financial planning was really decision-making, because people trying to do something with their finances. They have objectives with their finances. So what are those objectives? You know that so many people don’t know, they don’t have objectives. And so your job as an advisor is to help people think through the objectives that they have, and then you can talk about how we meet them financially. If you think of somebody thinking, okay, I want to plan towards retirement. Well, what are the criteria? You go through all those criteria and you can make a decision. Okay, we’re going to aim to have our house paid off by the time we hit retirement, for example. Well, now then, I’m doing something to meet a longterm objective that I’ve got in the financial planning. But financial planning is really financial decision making when it gets right down to it.
Bob:
So, Ron, while you were talking, I’ve got my bookshelves next to me. I just reached up and grabbed it. I got “Master Your Money” right in my hands when you redid it with Michael. I’m looking for that. Where is that in here in this book? I know what’s in here. I’ve read the book. I know it’s in here, so I’m going to go find it.
Ron:
Now, there should be a chapter on that. I don’t know it. No, I don’t.
Bob:
Okay. Alright. Well, I’ll look that up, but either way, I want all of you that are listening to know that we want to help you with this process by giving you these 10 steps and really giving you a criteria based decision model, as Ron calls it. Such an important subject. Ron, thank you for taking time out of your day, once again, to be on Christian Financial Perspectives. Hopefully, we’ll have you back some more. I mean, there’s just so much wisdom that you’ve gained over the years, and I love you, brother. I appreciate so much. You have been such a mentor to me, and I appreciate you being so obedient to the calling of God.
Ron:
Well, you’re very kind. One of the great joys that I’ve had is to be able to meet and work with people like yourself that are really serious about their faith and are really serious about serving their fellow man. I know that to be the case with you, Bob. This is not a job. This is a calling that you’re in.
Bob:
Amen. Amen to that. The last podcast was all about that – your calling. We all have a calling and a purpose and we need to find that, and God has that for us. So Ron, have a good rest of the day, have a good weekend, and I appreciate it. Until next time, you take care.
Ron:
Okay. Thank you, Bob. Good to be with you.
[CONCLUSION]
That’s all for now.
We invite you to listen to all of our past episodes covering many financial topics from a Christian Perspective. To make sure you don’t miss any of Bob’s upcoming episodes you can subscribe to Christian Financial Perspectives on iTunes, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher. To learn more about integrating your faith with your finances, visit ciswealth.com or call 830-609-6986.
[DISCLOSURES]
Investment advisory services offered through Christian Investment Advisors Inc. DBA Christian Financial Advisors, a registered investment advisor. Comments from today’s show are for informational purposes only and not to be considered investment advice or recommendations to buy or sell any company that may have been mentioned or discussed. The opinions expressed are solely those of the host, Bob Barber. Bob does not provide tax advice and encourages you to seek guidance from a tax professional.
0 min
July 18, 2020 80 – 7 Keys to Significance and Finishing Well
Click below to listen to Episode 80 – 7 Keys to Significance and Finishing Well
7 Keys to Significance and Finishing Well

Discover “7 Keys to Finishing Well” in life.

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Think about great men and women of God who have lived their lives to the fullest, packing meaning and purpose into everything that they have accomplished. Maybe you are thinking about a personal friend or someone from hundreds of years ago. No matter who it is, they probably all have one thing in common. They finished well.
Many people begin their journey well, but they falter along the way and get off track. This episode looks at the qualities of people that have lived a life full of significance and have finished well. Dr. Ken Boa joins Bob in discussing living a life with purpose. Ken is the founder of Reflections Ministries whose purpose is To encourage, teach, and equip people to know Christ, follow Him, become progressively conformed to His image, and reproduce His life in others. They discuss “7 Keys to Finishing Well.”

GUEST: Dr. Ken Boa of Reflections Ministries
HOSTED BY: Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®
Keys to Finishing Well

1. Intimacy with Christ – Being
2. Fidelity in the spiritual disciplines (Bible study and prayer) – Being
3. Biblical perspective on the circumstances of life – Knowing
4. Teachable, humble, and obedient spirit – Knowing
5. Sense of purpose and calling – Knowing
6. Healthy relationships with resourceful people – Doing
7. Ongoing ministry investment in the lives of other people – Doing
Questions for Self-Reflection

1. EVALUATE: How would you evaluate yourself in pursuing the goal of finishing well? Where do you most need change?
2. INTIMACY WITH CHRIST: Does your desire to know God exceed all other aspirations on your life journey? Aspirations toward persons, possessions, or positions? Are you focused more on loving Jesus than on avoiding sin?
3. FIDELITY IN SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINES: All relationships require time and investments. Are you faithful in pursuing those spiritual disciplines? If not, what can you do to become more faithful?
4. BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF LIFE: When faced with a disruption in your day or your life, what is your typical attitude or response? What can you do to develop God’s perspective on both short-term and long-term circumstances?
5. TEACHABLE, HUMBLE AND OBEDIENT SPIRIT: Are there one or more areas in your life that you’ve become unteachable? If so, write a prayer asking God to soften your heart to learn in these area.
6. SENSE OF PURPOSE AND CALLING: How sure are you of your calling in life – not just vocational, but in your life as a whole? What do you want your life to add up to? What are you doing now and how will that affect this goal? What do you want to be like in 5 years? 10 years? What practices can you pursue now to make that happen?
7. HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS WITH RESOURCEFUL PEOPLE: What can you do in the coming weeks and months to pursue a new healthy relationship or to strengthen an existing relationship?
8. ONGOING MINISTRY INVESTMENT IN THE LIVES OF OTHER PEOPLE: What do you see as impediments to ongoing ministry involvement in your life? If you’re not satisfied with the level of ongoing ministry involvement in your life, what can you do to change it?
God has called us all to a very purposeful and risk-filled life journey. How will you pursue the goal of finishing well?
Mentioned In This Episode

Christian Financial Advisors
Website

Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®

Dr. Kenneth Boa
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Reflections Ministries
Website

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[INTRODUCTION]
Welcome to “Christian Financial Perspectives”, where you’re invited to gain insight, wisdom and knowledge about how Christians integrate their faith, life and finances with a Biblical Worldview. Here’s your host Christian Investment Advisor, Financial Planner, and Coach, Bob Barber.
Bob:
So welcome to today’s podcast. And I got some great questions for you. We got a great podcast lined up for today and a great speaker. I’d like you to think about some great men and women of God that you’ve known throughout your life. And they really lived a life on purpose and they finished well. Maybe this is an uncle or an aunt are a grandmother or just somebody you know through business, but they did well. Maybe it’s a famous person, but think about their life. I want to share a couple of scriptures now that comes from Hebrews and Philippians, and see how these can apply towards their lives, as well as applying towards yours. Hebrews 12:1-2, “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles. And let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame and has set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” What a beautiful scripture that talks about fixing our eyes on Jesus, and then Philippians 3:12-14, “Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as laying hold of it yet, but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead. I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” These scriptures really speak of the prize that I sure hope to attain one day, and I hope you do too. I believe that nearly everyone, they start off in life wanting to run this race of life well, and then finish well someday. To be able to look back at a life that has meaning and purpose. Many people begin well, but somehow along the way, they get off track. So what we’re going to do today, we’re going to look at the qualities of people that have lived a life of significance and finished well that we can use as an example to follow. So the guest I have today that’s going to speak on finishing well is Dr. Ken Boa, founder of Reflections Ministries, whose purpose is to encourage, teach, and equip people to know Christ, follow him, become progressively conformed to his image, and reproduce his life in others. I’ve heard Dr. Boa many times through Kingdom Advisors at our conferences, as well as our study groups that we have nationwide through video. Dr. Boa has authored and coauthored numerous books and publications, including three that have received a Golden Medallion Book Award, now called the Christian Book Awards, from the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association, including the Zondervan NASB study Bible, which many of you may be familiar with. I know I am. So I’m very honored to have Dr. Boa as a guest on Christian Financial Perspectives today to discuss the seven keys to finishing well, and I hope this is going to be an inspiration to all of us listening. Welcome, Ken.
Ken:
Glad to be with you.
Bob:
I’m so excited about what you’re going to share with us, these seven keys to finishing well. Ken, you’ve come up with these seven keys of living a life of significance and finishing well. Let’s start with what that very first key is, and are these in order of importance or are every one of them the same?
Ken:
As it turns out, actually there is a sequence of importance. And when we go through the first two, those relate to being, and that relates to my relationship with God, and then the next three, three through five, relate to knowing, and that has to do with ourselves. And then the final two, six and seven, have to do with doing, that is to say with others. So it moves from God to ourselves to others, which is a theme of my book, “Conformed to his Image”, because essentially I talk about loving God completely, loving ourselves correctly, and loving others compassionately. And that is a sequence then that is involved in what I call relational spirituality. So this concept then actually ties these seven figures and features that I’ve observed by my own study of who were the great figures in the scriptures and also in the history of the church who have run the race with endurance and finished well. What are the qualities that those people seem to share in common? And that’s really how I arrived at these seven, but then in sequencing them, I put the most important one first, which is intimacy with Christ, and then that then animates or should animate the rest of them. So, then I saw a sequence then of what it meant to be and to know and to do those, those principles. Yes. That’s how it evolved.
Bob:
So it sounds like it’s kind of like a foundation. So you build the foundation, which is intimacy with Christ, and I tell you, Ken, today, with technology and all the outside stimuli that’s coming at us, that’s gotta be hard to have that strong intimacy with Christ. What kind of things do you notice that interfere with that?
Ken:
Oh, there’s the whole vin of this world. It’s constant, it’s ubiquitous, it’s pervasive. It’s constantly clamoring and telling us this is what you should go for. Pursuing the temporal over the eternal is what the world is calling us to do. And here’s the interesting thought that the world will define us by default, do nothing and you’ll buy into its value system. But the word, the word will only define us by discipline. And that’s why you cannot really just move along and ditz along without expecting to regress. I see the spiritual life, and this relates to this intimacy with Christ as a kind of escalator that’s going downwards. And maybe some of us as kids when we were at malls, let’s go up a down escalator, see how fast we can go against the the movement of yesterday.
Bob:
I used to love to do that, and I got in trouble by the way.
Ken:
That’s fun to do, but here’s the metaphor. There’s no neutral place. As soon as you stop moving, you’re descending. You see the concept, so that it’s always pulling us down. So to go up against that is to go against the gravity of the world, the flesh and the devil. And that’s when I talk about a higher principle of aerodynamics in which we take the wings of the spirit and we soar. Though the gravity is still there, the wings of the spirit animate us and energize us and bring us into intimacy with him. But that’s only gonna happen if we really renew our minds with the truth, as Romans 12:1-2 tells us to do, so we will not be conformed to the world, but instead be conformed to Christ the word and by being transformed by the renewing of our mind.
Bob:
Now I see where these keys, cause I know these keys, and I’ve looked at them already. I see where this second key really builds on the first key. So what is that second?
Ken:
Yes, they do build upon one another because fidelity in the spiritual disciplines, though at first look, you might’ve suppose, well, doesn’t that go under doing? But actually, the purpose of the disciplines is not that they are ends in themselves, but that they are the means to the end of intimacy with Christ. So that the point of the disciplines then is that these are the vehicles, time-tested vehicles, that universally animate the aspiration for intimacy with the Lord Jesus, because for example, the discipline of time spent with him of solitude, silence, study, the discipline where we simply pray and get to go away for a period of time. So without these fundamental disciplines that are again, as I say, time-tested, then we will not be able to have the training that’s necessary and the habituation that was necessary to be capable of leaning toward the spirit and not toward the flesh. My desire is for people to become more and more spring loaded toward the spirit. And that’s what these disciplines are designed to do. This says training, good training, will eventually form through neo plasticity. And we understand now the mechanism by that works because neurons that fire together wire together. So it is with the spiritual disciplines. If you keep showing up and you keep on doing the same thing, and it’s a positive thing, because practice makes perfect isn’t true. It’s perfect practice that makes perfect. So if you go and say renew your mind, you have a discipline of maybe memorizing some scriptures and so forth, whatever it is, that after awhile you do it long enough, and that’s what the disciplines do, they train you so that after a while you become spring loaded, it’s become second nature. It’s like muscle memory.
Bob:
You’re so right. And I’ve never seen it said like you just said it, too. Fidelity in spiritual disciplines. You think of fidelity or infidelity. When I think of infidelity, that’s not a good thing. I mean, that’s where your allegiance is not to the person you’re supposed to have fidelity to. And life is pulling us in so many different directions. I can see where our eyes focus on something else. We really have to stay true to being in the word and true to prayer. And we have to make that intentional, don’t we?
Ken:
Indeed, we do. It’s not going to happen by default. Again, just do nothing. And the world will encroach once again upon you. So it’s always this matter. It’s much easier to unlearn spiritual truth than to learn it because of the dynamics of a fallen world. And this present age then is I like to see it as a soul forming world that God is using even the adversities of this world to train us and prepare us for our eternal citizenship with him. So if we see it that way, then this world is not a living room. It’s a gym. It’s where we’re working out, we’re being worked on. And so seeing it that way, then the disciplines then of these engagements are necessary. But here’s the key thing about that. I wanted to say that relates to disciplines, but also the key thing that relates to intimacy with Christ and here it is, it is those who finish well, focus more in loving Jesus than on avoiding sin. So the key here is what do you want, not what are you trying to avoid. So, extinction never is effective. You try to get rid of something. It never goes away. The only way you can get rid of something is to replace it with something better, a higher good. And that is then replacement, which transcends extinction. What do you seek? What do you want? What do you long after? If the most important thing that you want is Jesus, then you become conformed by that which you aspire. You become shaped by your aspirations. And so, what do you really want? That’s where we have to use that as a diagnostic question. What do I really want more than anything else? I may say it’s him, but what in practice? Because my time and my wallet, basically my money, how I spend my money and my time, will tell me where my real priorities are in spite of how well I speak of my priorities.
Bob:
This reminds me of a long time ago. I’m thinking of something 20 years ago when I saw this guy talking about the filling of the Holy Spirit, and he had two glasses and he put a little bit of oil in one of the glasses. And when he started pouring the pure water in that glass and he had a drain under it, he started pouring water in it. Eventually, all that oil came out because he was pouring pure water into that glass. And for some reason, the way that you said that, when you’re pouring Jesus into you, everything else is just going to kind of fall out.
Ken:
It’s exactly right. So instead of trying to avoid sin or any of those things, what you want to do is focus on loving Jesus. Now, it goes back to the discipline. Why do I engage the disciplines? Because they are vehicles by which I can know him better. Now I have a reason for doing it. And so they’re not ends in themselves, but they’re means to the end of knowing him. It’s really the simplicity and purity of devotion to him. So the fundamental question that Jesus asked his first question, “What do you seek?” is the most important question we can ask ourselves.
Bob:
That’s extremely powerful. Ever since I became a Christian, gosh, over 35 years ago, I remember when I became a Christian. I just, I wanted the things of God, but there is this constant competition and that’s what I’m hearing. So we focused on those first couple of keys and there’s a third key to looking at everything and finishing well. What is that third key?
Ken:
The third key is going to be a biblical perspective on the circumstances of life. And by now, this is the first of the three knowing disciplines. The first two relate to being. That is to say, who am I? And who’s am I in intimacy with God? The next three relate to how do I think about the knowing dynamic? And so, it’ll involve one component of the knowing is how do I really view the circumstances of life? In other words, do I see them in terms of God’s character or do I instead view God’s character in terms of my changing circumstances? The fundamental rub there. And so if I view God to my circumstances, which are going to change, sometimes good, sometimes bad. But if I view that as the basis in which I look at God, I’m in serious trouble. It’s the unchanging character of God that I then apply to my changing circumstances, whether good or real. This is why Paul says to the Thessalonians, “Rejoice always. Pray without ceasing. In everything, give thanks.” Now that means in everything. So that means – I call it the hard Thanksgiving. How can I give him thanks for things that are terrible setbacks in my life. And yet, he’s inviting us to do that because all things work together, not in isolation, for good to those who love them and those who are called according to his purpose, which is the heart of Thanksgiving. So, it’s a renewed perspective that we’re shaped by suffering.
Bob:
And a biblical perspective reminded me, I’ve taught so much on a biblical worldview, is that perspective and worldview is that one in the same?
Ken:
They certainly overlap. That may be nuanced in their differences. But the idea is I tried to speak about an eternal perspective in the temporal arena, such that we treat things according to their true value. The wisest thing we can do then is to assess and view those things which are passing away and temporal as such. But the problem is the world has a mathematical blender that they miss evaluate the actual value of eternity, and they trivialize that. And they act as if the value of what they see and touch is transcendent. And so what they do is they treat it the temporal as if it’s eternal and they treat the eternal as if it’s hardly of relevance. And so, everything’s upside down.
Bob:
Yeah, it does. And they throw in there what I refer to as situational ethics, and whatever you’re doing, it just depends whether that’s right for you or right for me. Those are situations in a person’s life that can either demonstrate a biblical perspective or a secular one at that point. I had this great discussion just with a young person four days ago, a young college student that’s working for me. And it was interesting when we started getting into this discussion about a biblical worldview, and they’d never heard it. We started talking about what’s happening in today’s society. Is it okay to take a nickel or is it okay to take $50? Cause if it’s okay to take a nickel, then it’s okay to take $50 and then it’s okay to take $500. I presented this situation to this college student and she was like, I’ve never thought of it like that.
Ken:
Exactly. They don’t really think very well. So part of postmodernity in which we’re immersed is the problem that there is now a relativizing of the things that are true, good, and beautiful. Those are the three transcendentals, and God is in the unchanging wellspring of all that is true, all that is good, and all of that is beautiful. And because we are image bearers, we know and have a discernment about fundamentals of truth, goodness, and beauty, but we in our culture relativize them so that it’s just up for grabs.
Bob:
We’re nearly halfway through this thing. We’ve covered the first three keys to finishing well, so the fourth key, I guess, would be right in the middle of this. And what is that fourth key?
Ken:
It’s really, again, relating to knowing. It’s a teachable, responsive, humble, and obedient spirit. And when I speak of teachability I’m suggesting that in our youth our fundamental problem is naivete, a lack of focus in our middle years, though. It’s usually double mindedness when we’re trying to play by two sets of rules. But in our older years, I think our biggest challenge may be teachability. People succumb to the disease of the hardening of the categories. It’s a very inflexible brittle in their thinking. And so we need to have what I call the second naivete. The first naivete is childishness. And Paul says, “I learned to put away childish things,” but the second naivete, though, is child likeness. And there, we need to understand that if anything, we should become more and more surprised by the grace of God and the beauty of the created order and so forth.
Ken:
So teachability, but it also relates to humility. It’s this concept of recognizing that we are really people who’ve received grace. And so the key to humility is not trying to become humble because then you’ll be humble and proud of it. But instead, the key to humility is realization of everything that you have is gift and grace. What do you have that you did not receive? Why do you boast as if you didn’t receive it? And Paul says that to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 4:7. So that’s so critical. So humility and then humility then can lead to a greater sense of obedience, you see. I like to put it this way, and really, if you look at John 15 and put all the elements together, it would be this, that the key to glorifying God, “By this my father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples,” but what’s the key to bearing fruit? The key to bearing fruit is abiding in him. What’s the key to abiding in him. It’s obedience. If you keep my word, then you will abide in me, but what’s the key to obedience? It’s trust. What’s the key to trust? It’s going to be love. And what’s the key to love? It’s knowing him. So let’s go the other way. If we say to know him personally, relationally, experientially – to know him in that way is to love him and to love him is to be willing to trust him. To trust him, then, is expressed in obedience. And that is the means by which we abide in Christ and thus bear fruit and ultimately glorify the father.
Bob:
Are the differences that you observe in people that are teachable and those that are not, does it come down to just being humble and willing? Having a willingness and never feeling like I know it all?
Ken:
Yeah, that’s the component. The humility of realizing that. Another component though is an open mindedness, a willingness to be corrected, a willingness to be seen, and a sense of surprise of joy. Again, it’s child likeness. It’s the second naivete. That’s critical as well. And then the whole idea is what you’re really doing is seeing that all these things go together. It is, indeed, the mindset of one who knows who he is and whose he is and recognizes the glory of the transcendent God who also is the one who is the lover of our souls and pursued us and wooed us. On the one hand, but recognizes the greater that we see who God is, then the more we see how far apart we are in terms of our own aspirations and so forth. In other words, the greater God is, the worse we become. And then we recognize, though, the more we see that disparity, that’s actually what grace is all about. It connects the two.
Bob:
Wow. That’s just the first four keys. We’ve got three more to go. Let me again, kind of re-emphasize those first four we’ve gone through, starting off with intimacy with Christ, fidelity in spiritual disciplines. Next was a biblical perspective of everything, and then having that obedient spirit. We’re coming down to five, six, and seven. So what is that fifth key?
Ken:
Yes. The fifth one also relates to thinking. It’s a clear sense of personal purpose and calling. We have to recognize that God’s called us to a purposeful journey. Now, it’s a risk taking thing, but ultimately he says that your purpose is really a vocare, a vocation. That means that you have a calling, and that God has given each of us a unique calling. He’s given us a unique gift mix, but we need to find our purpose, find our calling through the lens of scripture and through the lens of prayer and obedience and so forth. And thus, we discover that life is a journey through various stages. Each is a preparation for another. It’s a kind of an apprenticeship, and we start off as apprentices along the way of discipleship, but then we’re called to become journeymen. We don’t need to be constantly prodded and so forth. And then after awhile, ultimately he calls us to become masters, the sages, people who we then have a wisdom enough to transgenerate. That is to say, to move this wisdom from one generation to another. And so all of this is a journey, though, and this is a calling. That’s why I say, the worst thing you can do is buy into the lie of retiring. Most think of retirement as basically they put themselves out to pasture and it’s crazy stuff. You’re taking your best years. You now you have all this wisdom, hard earned skill, and painful insights. We think that we’ve learned more from our failures than we do from our successes. And so, that’s the time to do it. I’m now writing a book called “Transitioning Well”, living so that navigating through the stages of life so that the best is yet to come. That’s critical for people. So, you may retire from a career, but you don’t retire from your vocation, your calling.
Bob:
You still have a purpose. I tell you, Ken, I ask people all the time, “What is God calling you to?” And they say, “Well, I haven’t felt God calling me to anything.” They don’t feel that calling. They don’t have that purpose. To me, that’s an emptiness that can only be filled with that relationship with God and Christ. And that’s sad. And like you say when someone retires all of a sudden, they don’t feel like they have a sense of purpose anymore. And that’s why so many of our retirees are depressed.
Ken:
Well, that’s exactly so, because now they built their life out of achievement and challenge and accomplishment. And so now what am I doing? Because if they define themselves by those kinds of external metrics, then they are really nobodies when they go into the world, as they now construe themselves, rather than having seen that no, no, no, no. Your career was a component that God used to prepare you for such a time as this. Most people though ask those fundamental questions too late. They wait until they start retiring or about to retire. Then they say, now, what am I going to do? They should have been thinking about that since their twenties. An annual kind of recapitulation or reassessment, wisdom then, is if we really review this, we would be in a better place. But even so, even if we fail to do that, the best can still be yet to come. Though, it’s not what it might otherwise have been. So, it’s a kind of a concept of transitioning well, so that we live well so that we will finish well, but there’s a transitioning process. S,o I think that God has given us a unique arena of influence. He’s given us capacities and skills. Now we have to say, how do I use them? Rather than frittering my time away in the golf course or going off this place or the other, I’m not against those things. But if that’s what you’re trying to use to define yourself, you’re going to make yourself utterly bored. And that will be a useless life and really squandered those resources
Bob:
As you’re still working, remember to work as if you’re working for the Lord and it doesn’t matter what you’re doing. Whether it’s outside work, inside work, accounting, or framing a house, or mowing a yard, just whatever it may be, work as if you’re working for the Lord, and you’ll have that sense of purpose in your life. Now, Ken, the sixth key to finishing well, I’ve got to admit to you, this is one of my favorite keys. I was just talking with my wife last night about this. This key, I think is so instrumental, too, with younger people as they start off in life. So, let’s get into that sixth key. What is that sixth key?
Ken:
Now we go to the components that relate to doing unto others. So, it has to do here with healthy alliances with resourceful people. And this has to do, then, with the need for us to understand that the spiritual life is not something led in isolation, but rather in relationship and community. So here we have, then, God has sovereignly embedded people in our lives, and we need to also have strong relationships with resourceful people. That’s why we need people who are spiritual friends. But then there’s another level up from friendship. It could be guidance and there’s some that can help us and it can be reciprocal. And then another level up is more like mentoring. And this is an important area and that’s again, a kind of an apprenticeship. And then finally, there’s even spiritual direction, but that’s where a person is gifted to discern the working of the spirit in another person’s life. Because what we need to do is have people who encourage and stimulate one another to love and good deeds without which we would then really fail.
Bob:
I think of the younger person. And I remember when I was about 30, and we moved into the New Braunfels area, and this older gentleman, he just grabbed onto me and he loved the Lord. And he said, come on, you’re coming to Bible Study Fellowship with me. He got me involved in the Christian community here. That relationship, he and I still have today. He’s closing in on 80 now. And we’ve had this incredible relationship all that time. And I think of that healthy relationship with resourceful people. That sixth key plays right into that and has been so instrumental in my life, which takes us to the very last key. And what is that seventh key to finishing well?
Ken:
It’s the final one that relates to others or to doing, that is to say, ongoing ministry investment in the lives of others. That is to say that we are looking at the fact that God has given us something that we need to now give to others. So, really, we’re not ends in ourselves in that sense, but rather we are called to give what we’ve receive to others. It’s a transgenerational thing. So that at the end, the whole dynamic of life in Christ is imparted. And it’s a matter of life on life, and then actually investing in other people. So the concept, then, is to have ongoing outreach, sacrificial ministry, and a desire to really invest everything I’ve got into the lives of others so that I will end well by really giving it to the next generation. I think that we, all of us, want to have a legacy. We all want to have something that’s going to spread. And that’s very critical. Although, I will say this. It’s not a matter of how many people know us. That’s not what true fame is. True fame is how many actually are touched by the invisible influence of one soul upon another. So, it may be anonymous, but actually not before God. So everything you do – all authentic fame is fame with God, but in the grace of hidden impact and through mutual reception, so hidden impact is your key. You do not know if what a word you said or a thing you did mattered or not. I just got a call, for example, from someone I don’t think I’ve seen since the early seventies when I lived in Knoxville. And she was telling me about the impact that my life had had had on her and her two daughters and her son-in-law over these years, even though I haven’t seen him in all those years. Something had come up and she wanted to talk with me, but I hardly could even remember them, and I had to bring them to mind. So my point is, most of your life has hidden impact. And so you want to invest and give everything you’ve been given, because if you hold back, it’ll be a matter of stewardship. And you’ll say, what did you do with the time that I gave you? What did you do with the ability that I gave you? What did you do with the influence that I gave you, the relationships, which is another realm of stewardship people. And then what did you do with the truth that I gave you, as well as the treasurer? So, it’s a question of living in such a way that we live with the end in view and live with eternity in view.
Bob:
These last two keys, Ken, that healthy relationship. I was telling you about this wonderful man that’s still around and reached down to me. And now here we are, 30 years later. It’s time for me to reach down to the next generation. That’s where that ongoing ministry in the lives of others comes and where so many of our retirees, they have so much wisdom and they’ve been through life. They can mentor that next generation and bring them into that relationship with Christ and say, “Come on, get up, come with me.” So, there you have it. Those seven keys to living a life of significance and finishing well. Again, intimacy with Christ, fidelity in spiritual disciplines, the biblical perspective, an obedient spirit, a sense of purpose and calling, healthy relationships with resourceful people, and ministry into the lives of others. Now, don’t worry if you didn’t get all of these. Remember, we always put this on our Christian financial podcast website. So that’s what you do. You just go to christianfinancialpodcast.com. You’ll be able to pull all of this information, all these seven keys, we’ve been sharing. Before we end today’s program, there’s also a list of questions that we’re going to put on the website in reference to these seven keys. Ken, these are questions that I got from the study guide that you did many years ago. I think it was back in November of 2016 that you did this for Kingdom Advisors, and here’s a sampling of these questions. I think they’re really good questions for all of us to ask ourselves. “Does my desire to know God exceed all the other aspirations in life’s journey? Everything that is out there, does my desire to know him exceed all that?” The second question of a sampling of these many questions is, “What do you want your life to look like in the next 5 to 10 years and beyond that?” Third would be, “What could you do in the coming weeks and months to pursue a new, healthier relationship or to strengthen an existing one?” So those are just a few samples of the questions, and we’ll have all seven of those keys on our website. Ken, do you have any last words before we end the podcast today?
Ken:
Well, it’s just a question of asking yourself and coming into contact with your deepest longings. I think it’s a wise thing for us to do and to have this understanding, and I think this is critical for us to embrace. We are no longer defined by the pain of our bounded past, but we’re now defined by the joy of our unbounded future.
Bob:
Can you say that one more time?
Ken:
We’re no longer defined by the pain of our bounded past. All the remorse and regrets that we have, that’s not what defines us. That’s what’s being used to shape us for our eternal citizenship in the father’s house. So therefore, we are actually being defined by the future. We’re defined by the joy, the unbounded joy, not the abounded past. We won’t even remember it when we’re in his presence, but ultimately by the unbounded joy of his presence. That’s a way of seeing and thinking that can really animate our hope in this temporal arena.
Bob:
That goes exactly with what we started off today from Philippians 3, “Forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead. I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” Well, that’s going to do it all for today. Thank you so much, Ken, for taking time out of your day to be with us, and remember that God has called all of us to live a purpose filled life.
[CONCLUSION]
That’s all for now.
We invite you to listen to all of our past episodes covering many financial topics from a Christian Perspective. To make sure you don’t miss any of Bob’s upcoming episodes you can subscribe to Christian Financial Perspectives on iTunes, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher. To learn more about integrating your faith with your finances, visit ciswealth.com or call 830-609-6986.
[DISCLOSURES]
Investment advisory services offered through Christian Investment Advisors Inc. DBA Christian Financial Advisors, a registered investment advisor. Comments from today’s show are for informational purposes only and not to be considered investment advice or recommendations to buy or sell any company that may have been mentioned or discussed. The opinions expressed are solely those of the host, Bob Barber. Bob does not provide tax advice and encourages you to seek guidance from a tax professional.
0 min
July 03, 2020 79 – Creating A Family Legacy
Click below to listen to Episode 79 – Creating A Family Legacy
Creating A Family Legacy

Does your family have a mission and vision statement?

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Bob is joined by guest Bill High. Bill is the CEO of The Signatry, a global Christian Foundation that equips donors, advisors, and ministries to fulfill their unique roles in expanding and impacting the Kingdom of God. He is also a published author and conference speaker on creating lasting legacies. Creating a lasting legacy is exactly what Bob and Bill discuss in this episode of Christian Financial Perspectives.
They examine the differences between estate planning and creating a family legacy. Estate planning is typically only for 1-2 generations, whereas legacy planning is meant for several generations down the line. Learn how to get your family involved to create a family mission statement and a lasting legacy.
Ask yourself these questions: What does your family tend to prioritize? Is it items for the here and now or is it planning for the future of generations to come? What if you could create a lasting legacy for your grandchildren and their grandchildren?

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HOSTED BY: Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[INTRODUCTION]
Welcome to “Christian Financial Perspectives”, where you’re invited to gain insight, wisdom and knowledge about how Christians integrate their faith, life and finances with a Biblical Worldview. Here’s your host Christian Investment Advisor, Financial Planner, and Coach Bob Barber.
[EPISODE]
Bob:
Deuteronomy 6:6-9, “These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up, tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.” Again, that’s from Deuteronomy 6:6-9 talking about the commandments of loving the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, and mind, and teaching that to your children, teaching the 10 commandments, and all those things that God would want. This is teaching us and telling us it always should be top of mind. So, I want to start off today’s podcast with a few questions for you. And I want you to think about this, and then we’re going to get into the subject of today’s podcast. In your family, what do you prioritize? Again, let me ask that. In your family, what do you prioritize? Is it always the urgent or is it the important? Have you ever thought about having a 100 year view for what you want for your family? When you hear the word legacy, what do you think of in regards to your family? What kind of lasting legacy would you like to create in your children and your grandchildren and the generations to come after that? That’s a lot to take in, but there’s a little bit more and then we’re going to get into today. Next, I want you to think about these two words, vision and mission. What do you think when you hear them? Have you ever thought about coming up with a vision and a mission statement for your family? On today’s podcast, we’re going to be talking about all these questions I just asked and creating a lasting family legacy, and I have a guest, Bill High. Bill, he’s the chief executive officer of “The Signatry”, a global Christian foundation that equips donors, advisors, and ministries to fulfill their unique roles in expanding and impacting the kingdom of God. The Signatry has facilitated sending more than $2 billion – that’s with a B – to ministries and organizations throughout the globe to help fulfill the great commission. So, besides Bill being the CEO of The Signatry, and I’m so excited to have him today on Christian Financial Perspectives, he’s also a published author and conference speaker on creating lasting legacies. Prior to joining The Signatry in 2000, he was a partner in a law firm. He’s been married for more than 25 years and he and his wife, Brooke, have four children. So, welcome Bill to Christian Financial Perspectives.
Bill:
Well, Bob. Thanks for having me. I’m really glad to be with you today.
Bob:
Bill, when I mention this word legacy, it can mean a lot of different things to people. What does that exactly mean? So Bill, this is what you do for a living. You help people with a legacy. So can you define for us, from your experience in helping many families create a lasting legacy, exactly what is this word? What does legacy mean when I asked you that?
Bill:
Well, I think in the traditional sense, when people hear that word legacy, so many people actually go to the idea of I’m going to plan my estate. I’m going to do a legacy plan, an estate plan, and they think about leaving money to their kids. And that’s usually the way they think about it. But I think that one of the best definitions that I’ve heard of that I think makes a lot of sense is legacy is not what you leave behind, but legacy is really what you put in motion. And I think it all stems from this basic worldview that you have, because if our lives are based in the here and now, then it really is what do you leave behind? Because that’s all there is. But if your perspective is that we’re living for that day that we stand before Jesus and are held accountable for our use of his resources and the fact that we are part of this heavenly place in heaven, then it really is what are we going to put in motion? All the people that are going to stand around us on that day and heaven. So that I think is a much different kind of perspective. What are you going to see when you stand in heaven, who will be the people around you? Will it be your wife? Will it be your kids? Will it be the people that you helped lead to Christ? Will it be people that you’ve given to, like missionaries? That’s what I think is a much more complete and fuller definition of what legacy looks like.
Bob:
So it’s really different than just estate planning and it’s like you said. It’s what you actually put in motion today versus after you’re gone. Is that the right question?
Bill:
That’s absolutely right. And even the verse that you started off the podcast with, Bob, the idea about trying to pass down a set of values. The problem, I think that’s happened in our culture today is that we’ve really allowed culture to define family and what family means. And so, some of the perspective is, okay, I’ll have some kids, but I don’t need to have too many because kids are expensive and yeah, I’ll leave them some money when I pass on. But that’s a cultural definition of family. Kids are convenient, but the scriptural definition of the idea of family, you probably remember the verse in scripture in Exodus 20, where it talks about God will visit the sin of fathers to the third and fourth generation. You’ve heard that verse before, right, Bob?
Bob:
I have, and it’s kind of scary.
Bill:
Yeah, it is, but it represents the generational idea to the third and fourth generation. That’s Exodus 20:5. But what a lot of people forget to read is the next verse, and I’m going to paraphrase a little bit, but showing steadfast love to thousands who love me and keep my commandments. Now, other translations would say that it’s showing steadfast love to a thousand generations and that’s a far different perspective. So, if Bob gets it right with your family, we want to think about a thousand generations. So, if it’s okay with you, Bob, I’d like to at least share one story from scripture about a family that represented literally thousands of years. That okay?
Bob:
I would love it, go for it.
Bill:
So you, you may be remember the story. Of course, Israel had 12 sons. The oldest son was Reuben. Reuben was disqualified from leading the family, which if you remember, Israel was a primogenitor culture, meaning that the oldest son inherited the bulk of the estate. But Reuben was disqualified because he was unfaithful. Sons two and three were Simeon and Levi, and they were also disqualified from receiving the bulk of the inheritance because they had an anger problem. So it was actually son number four who received the inheritance. You remember that was, by chance?
Bob:
That would be Judah, right?
Bill:
Judah is son number four. Okay. So, and that’s why you have so many of the references to Judah and the like throughout all of scripture. And ultimately the fascinating part of Judah is Judah is not necessarily the best guy either. Because again, since you’re doing the read through the Bible, part of what is fascinating about Judah is that he has two sons, ultimately three sons, but the first son marries a woman named Tamar. And that son, God puts him to death because he’s evil, and they don’t have any kids by Tamar. So, by Jewish law at that time, the next son was supposed to step in and fulfill the family obligations so the oldest son didn’t leave without any kind of inheritance. And he also is evil. So, God puts him to death. So Judah gets worried that I’ve got a third son named Shayla, and I don’t want to give him to this woman because he might be put to death and I’ll be left with no kids and no way to pass on my family name. So what happens is Tamar sees this, and she goes out and as a prostitute and ultimately Judah comes in and picks her up as a prostitute and impregnates her and has a kid. And you think, wow, what an incredibly screwed up story, no question, you know, really messed up. But what a lot of people don’t recognize is that within that story, the son Perez is actually the son born of that relationship between Judah and Tamar. Now, ultimately Tamar is saved. And again, she ends up having a son named Perez. So it’s a bad beginning to a family story, but here’s, what’s fascinating about the story of Tamar and Perez. And the son that’s born is that if you go into the book of Ruth hundreds of years later, what you’ll find is that the elders of Bethlehem come in and when Boaz and Ruth get married, they say, Hey, may your kids be like Perez and ultimately the blessing upon Tamar, because it was Perez sons who ended up become pillars in Bethlehem. And of course, continuing in that family line, Boaz is part of the line of Judah and Judah, or rather Boaz, was described as a man of standing. So again, here you have this wonderful story, but then of course, out of the union of Boaz and Ruth, that’s the Davidic line. And you’ll go on and you’ll find in the book of Chronicles that one of the key leaders in David’s army is a son of Perez who is one of the chief commanders. And then even when you go into the book of Nehemiah, Nehemiah 11:6. It says, so that when they’re rebuilding the walls in Jerusalem, there are 468 sons of Perez who are described as valiant men. So from the book of Genesis to the book of Nehemiah, it’s approximately 1400 years, at least, of Perez’s legacy, but that started with this kind of incredible story of Judah and Tamar. And so that’s why we say, man, it really is possible. Think about what Perez put in motion, starting with his mom, something God placed in them to say, guys, you’re always going to be these valiant kind of people and think about what kind of impact that has on the world today.
Bob:
Okay. So I’m listening to this and I’m thinking, this is speaking to me. You’ve used that biblical story about how I could create a legacy for so many generations following that could follow a godly legacy like that.
Bill:
Yeah. And if you come back to that definition, legacy is what you put in motion. I know that one of the questions that sometimes people ask is, okay, so what’s the difference between an estate plan and a legacy plan. An estate plan really is built around a document and it’s built around the transfer of financial assets. It typically involves a lawyer, of course. There’s a trustee and the like, and it’s a very transactional kind of process. It’s necessary. But a legacy plan is really built around first, this idea that your family has a set of values that you’re attempting to communicate from one generation to the next. It is built upon a culture of family communication and trust from one generation to the next. So the idea of the estate plan, typically, is let’s think one generation, maybe two, if we’re thinking about grandkids. Legacy plan says, how can I have this set of values? This belief system that gets carried on from one generation to the next. And again, Bob, if we started with the Bible verse that you talked about – that whole idea of talking about the scriptures, when you rise up and when you lie down, communicating to your kids was part of a practice with the idea that that would continue with kids and grandkids and great grandkids. That’s how you transmit this set of values from one generation to the next
Bob:
I’m thinking of it like bookends, and you’ve got the estate plan. You build it and then your life’s over. They read the estate plan, books closed. That’s it for you. Where the family legacy is not the end of the book, it’s the beginning of the book. It’s the beginning of other generations and what are they doing behind you and how are they following Christ behind you? And this is why it’s so important, isn’t it, to build a family legacy. I want my life to count for something. I just wasn’t born and I lived 85 or 90 years and I’m gone and that’s the end of Bob Barber. I mean, I hope that I carry on a legacy. You know, Bill, I come from quite a legacy in Texas. My ancestry goes back 190 years and my great, great, great grandfather was the first settler of Travis County. That’s where Austin sits. Austin, Texas. And he was known for his Christian hospitality. And when we go to what’s called Hornsby’s Bend, you see the historical marker and you read that, that they were known for their Christian hospitality and helping others. That still, 190 years later, hits me to carry that on. It just wasn’t a bookend or the book closed. It was open to where let’s continue to carry that forward.
Bill:
Right on. You’re right on. And that’s the thing that we try to impress upon people is you need to look at your estate plan documents as a necessary part, but most of the estate plan documents are poor legacy documents. They don’t actually contain any of that story, any of the heritage. That’s really what you’re trying to pull out because ultimately, when you stand before Jesus and heaven. I mean, in 2 Corinthians 5:10, the Bible talks about that we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and be held accountable for what we’ve done in the body, whether good or bad. What is God going to ask us? What’s Jesus is going to say? One of the first things he’s going to ask you is how did you steward the resources that I put in your hand? Well, what are those resources? First, it’s going to be relationships. And those relationships, if you’re married, he’s going to say, how’d you do with your wife? And if God allowed you to have kids, he’s gonna say, how’d you do with those kids? Did you steward those relationships well? If you have grandkids, that you’ve had an opportunity to have an influence on how did you steward the relationship with the grandkids. It’s not going to be that first question about, Hey, how’s your bank account, or even about your giving. It’s going to be, how did you invest in the people that I gave you? And then from there, it might turn to your neighbors. Did you love your neighbors well? Did you invest in your community in such a way, and you were a light? And then maybe it might be, hey, what were some of the things that you gave to financially that also, in turn, brought other people to Christ and there might be this cloud of witnesses that said, Oh yeah. I came to know Christ because of a gift that Bob Barber made to this missionary work in Africa or otherwise. I think that’s a far different picture of just saying I was just supposed to leave money to my kids.
Bob:
You know, bill, I do podcasts all the time, and every time I do podcasts with such incredible speakers like you and those that are so challenging, there’s no doubt you’re coming across in a way that these are words that people do not hear. They flat don’t hear them. They don’t think about them. We get so caught up in our lives, all we think about is the moment not in the future. Do you think that’s why so many people, they’ve never even thought about legacy or creating one? I mean, they just don’t think about it?
Bill:
Well, I mean, at the end of the day, you see that in business, you’ll see businesses that create vision statements and mission statements and value statements. But somehow we tend to think that we shouldn’t do that for our family. And yet the whole idea of the biblical covenant is first and foremost, that the family adopts a biblical covenant, a set of values. That was the idea. And then you talk about that covenant man. Guys, here’s the things that we agreed to. That’s why in the concept of the Passover, when you go to celebrate the Passover, the way it starts is the youngest kid in the family who is able turns to the elder in the family, a grandfather or great grandfather and says, father, tell us why this night is so different from any other night. And the whole idea was to create this culture of storytelling, of remembrance, of what God has done. The flip side of that in our world today is the Western view of family is that we raise our kids up to independence. We raise them up and then we kick them out and say, Hey, you go make your way in the world. I call it the up and out theory. Raise them up, kick them out, and go be independent, stand on your own two feet. But that’s not the biblical definition of family. The biblical definition of family was really this idea is that we still were interdependent. We still need one another because we come from this same story, this divine story, that God is writing throughout time. And when we realize that we’re not independent of the story, but we are still interdependent, that we need one another, that we’re part of this grand story that God’s writing, it changes our perspective totally. And so, part of what I try to teach is we need to return to this biblical definition of family, not a cultural definition. The biblical definition of family is that we are part of a big story that God’s writing. We need to remember time and time again, all the things that God’s done for us, that set of values, that vision, and that mission that we’re called to
Bob:
Did y’all hear what he said there? Bill said, it’s not about independence, but it’s about interdependence. That is so true, Bill. It’s not about independence from God, but interdependence on God, we’re working together. I think about this. Someone’s listening to us. They’re thinking, okay, I’m just a little perplexed. I’ve never heard this kind of conversation before. How would my family get started and involved in setting up a vision for the family’s future? Do you have kind of a way that you do that and help people get started on that?
Bill:
There’s a process that people follow. This is something that we’ve led individual families through. And sometimes that is where you go away for a weekend and you actually facilitate a conversation. There’s three big things that you really want to walk away with. You want to walk away with a set of family values. What are the anchors that are going to be there for your family for the next 150 years? Then, you’ve got to define your family mission. What will we do then to fulfill the third thing, which is what is God’s vision for our family? So those are the three big takeaways. By the way, at my website, my personal website, billhigh.com, people can click on the legacy button. They’ll actually see a little bit of a worksheet that people can walk themselves through. So it’s not rocket science by any means that people need to do so it’s nothing to be overwhelmed by. It’s something that a husband and wife can do together. The other thing, Bob, that we do is we facilitate a family legacy workshop, and we’re starting to do those around the country, 10 to 12 couples at a time because we know sometimes families have good intentions. I’m sure you’ve heard that. They have good intentions, but they never get to it. So we lead this family legacy workshop where we actually focus on some of those ideas, the biblical definition of family, family communication, mission, vision, values, and they’ll walk out of there with a good working statement of what their family values, family vision, family mission would be. By the way, the idea would be true. You’ve heard the notion that very few people have goals. 3% of the people in the country really have goals for themselves. It’s the 97% of the people that work for the 3% who have goals. Well, the same idea holds true and family legacy. If you take the time to define your mission, vision, and values, then you can set the compass settings for the next 150 years for your family.
Bob:
As I was listening to you say this, and I’m writing this down: mission, vision, and values. Give me an example of a vision and some examples of values and mission. Can you give me some examples of that so that I can grab that tool and have something that I can look up to because I think about those that are listening to us and in our society today, where do they have examples? I mean, you were talking about that in business. Maybe business has a vision or mission, but I don’t know many families that would say our family has a vision. Our family has a mission. Where’s the example?
Bill:
So, and the vision statement by the way is described as what can only God do? You want something that’s hard, that’s incredible and impossible and exciting. A mission statement is more practical. It’s what we will do to fulfill the vision. So, in the book that I wrote with David Green called, “Giving It All Away And Getting It All Back Again”, their vision statement is to go on the adventure of impacting our world for Christ. So, it’s a big vision. We’re going to impact the world, and it’s an adventure. Their mission statement is to love God intimately and live extravagant generosity. That’s an example of a modern day family that’s come up with a vision and a mission. Their values, frankly, are very simple. God, family, others, but in those values, they have a whole subset. So in the God category, they have things like we’ll pray. We’ll spend time in God’s Word. They have a whole bunch of specific verses that they cite too. So that’s just one family. We’ve led these kind of facilitated sessions with other families, one family in the family legacy workshop. We give examples of it. But one family, their vision statement is very simple. Every generation serving Christ, great, simple, short, memorable, all those kinds of things. Another family in terms of their mission, it is very similar to like the green family. It is to love God, serve others, always. So you see lots of simple things like that. If I go back to the biblical story that I started with of Perez and his family, there must have been something that he taught the family about, “Guys were valiant men. We are a valiant family,” because you see that repetition in scripture about Perez and his family. So, simple thing. There are other examples, by the way, of that in scripture where you’ll see, it appears that the family adopted something. That was the same idea, by the way, go back to Abraham and the covenant, ultimately, that God was laying out with the children of Israel. You’re a separated people. You’ll love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Again, this isn’t necessarily creative rocket science. Go to the scriptures and you’ll see it. What did Jesus say? Love God with your whole heart, mind, soul, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. That’s a pretty simple mission statement.
Bob:
Well, where I found out about you and learned about you was through Kingdom Advisors and you spoke a couple of times, actually. We have our monthly study that’s done by video across the nation. I’ve got that right in front of me, the listening guide. I remember hearing you speak, and I pulled this back out and it’s got some really good stuff in it that can help our listeners. You have this 5 step process that you showed us and then you had six steps to actually implementing these vision and values and admission. So quickly go through this 5 step process. And then let’s go through those 6 steps for implementing that you shared with us with Kingdom Advisors.
Bill:
Yeah. I might have modified some of this, to be honest, since I last presented, but here’s the five steps that we talk about that a family needs to go through. So, one is really just discovery. The discovery process is identifying what your goals are as a family. Where are you at now? Where have you been? What have been the hurts that have occurred the past? What specific problems do you have? But it’s identifying and saying, here’s where we’re at now. Here’s some of the problems, but here’s where we want to go. So, that’s what the discovery process looks like. That often involves sitting down, much like the work that you do, Bob, but it’s just sitting down with that husband and wife and just saying, tell us the story. What do you really want to get accomplished? So that’s step one. Step two is really focused on communication. Some of the work that I do, we have families that tell us that we’re really re-introducing the family to one another. So we use a variety of assessment tools, including personality profiles. We try to help people understand how God has wired them uniquely. That’s actually one of the biggest things that we see is that many times people are always trying to say, why can’t you be like this? When in fact, God wired them a specific way. Some of this stuff’s not going to change. So just by improving family communication, you get the family health. Usually, that is one of the biggest parts of the process is just dealing with family communication because you know it. So many times you see families who just sweep old issues under the rug for years and years and years. It’s like the big pile of dust under the rug that everybody keeps tripping over, but they never want to discuss. So that’s step two.
Bob:
Ooh. That’s like pulling the dust out from underneath the bed, huh? That could be difficult. You really need a Godly leader and be in much prayer when you start pulling some of that stuff out, right?
Bill:
It is. And the honest truth is we tell the patriarch or matriarch in the family is don’t try to do this by yourself, particularly if it’s a hard driving patriarch who’s used to getting his way. If you try to go facilitate this kind of stuff by yourself, the kids will resist because it’s like, “Oh, this is dad’s deal again. And he’s just trying to impose his will again.” And they won’t open up. That big pile of dust is going to sit there under the rug again. But usually, there are issues from the past that have gotta be addressed in some way, shape, or form. And I see that, frankly, in families that would consider themselves healthy. So the communication process of working through that sometimes takes quite some time. Usually, we find that mom and dad want to drive to the result, which is let’s get the estate plan done. Let’s get this work done, and really what they need to do is focus on some of these soft issues, which is making sure that the relationships are healthy. So any event, that’s step two family communication, can’t be the longest one.
Bob:
Right? Discovery, communication, and then we go to step three.
Bill:
Step 3 s alignment. Alignment is actually where you often start to say, hey, we have these goals, but we realize that we’re here. So let’s work on an alignment plan. Usually that means family mission, vision, and values. Let’s agree on what our vision is, where we’re going in the future. Let’s agree what our values are, and then let’s agree what the mission is. Sometimes, by the way, part of that alignment process is also as simple as a code of conduct. Here’s the 14 rules of how our family behaves. Treat each other with respect. Deal with the hurts immediately. Ask for forgiveness. Give forgiveness. Deal with the conflicts in a timely manner. That can be a whole set of those ground rules that are just really helpful in the context of family. When you have those ground rules and somebody steps outside of them, you can lovingly and gently say, hey, by the way, we agreed to this, didn’t we? And so you’re not acting in conformity with those set of rules. So, that alignment process begins to create this pathway for a family to move forward and say, we’re agreeing upon this way of living and this way of living going forward. So that’s step three. Step four is action. This is where most people want to start, which is what are the documents that we need to accomplish the family mission, vision, and values, but also what are the documents that we need to make sure that our communication is going to be solid? So, it’s not just the financial plan or the estate plan, but it also includes things like family governance policy. How will we have a family meeting? And by the way, these things don’t just apply to a wealthy family, they also apply to a family of relatively modest means, but that action plan of actually putting structure in place on how you communicate is just really powerful. And then the last step is family celebration. How do we celebrate as a family? The celebration process is where you step back and you see this throughout the Old Testament where people would gather together and they would remember the harvest. They would remember festival times. We just don’t do that enough in the family where we intentionally remember what God’s done in our family. How do we celebrate our mission, vision, and values? So, those are some very basic things.
Bob:
Bill, we’ve shared so much today. I was wanting to get into the 6 steps for actually implementing all that, but you pretty much did that right here. So it’s discovery, communication, alignment, action, and family celebration. So after that fifth step, is there any further steps that need to be taken or is that pretty much the whole journey?
Bill:
Well, the basic idea of repeat and rinse. You gotta keep working on it. Just because you get all that done doesn’t mean that you’re not going to have to come back and deal with family communication. You’re not going to have to tweak an estate plan or a financial plan, those kinds of things. So, it becomes an ongoing journey. And so partly what we say to families is when you adopt a biblical view of family and this idea of legacy is what you put in motion. You always have a job to do. And so the only other part, Bob, that I really haven’t covered in detail, I know that we’re starting to get ready to wind some of this discussion down, is the idea of family generosity. And we talk about family generosity because usually it’s the easiest way to begin implementing family legacy. It’s when you begin to teach your kids, your grandkids, that we want to look out into the world and say, how are we going to give together? How are we going to impact the world? It allows your kids to be in a place where they see that life’s not about themselves, but life is about others. It’s a way of life, just the way Jesus lived. Wherever Jesus went, whatever he did, he had all these divine moments of interruption, whether it was feeding 5,000 or a woman with a flow of blood, the Roman leader, all these kinds of things, you see Jesus constantly given away his life. So that’s one of the big things that we like to talk about is just a practical way of living out the vision, mission values.
Bob:
So, if I’m hearing you say this correctly, like my wife and I, instead of us just giving individually, let’s give as a family and get the whole family involved in the giving part of it.
Bill:
Yeah. We say establish the family foundation. Now people again, hear that. Even today, I heard somebody say, well, I’m not a person that could afford a family foundation. And that’s where the part of the space of what the signature is and does is we’re a donor advised fund. It’s really just like a charitable bank account. You can create it online in 10 minutes. No matter what level you’re at, you can create the account where you’ve got some money set aside, whether it’s a $100 or whether it’s $10,000, we can give some together as a family. And that idea of being able to give together as a family. I say giving is one of the great equalizers in the family. I have four kids, I have two son-in-laws. I have three grandkids. My five year old grandson could come up to me today and say, Hey, Papa. How about if we give to those people over there, because they have some needs. His experience is just the same as mine, because that’s how he experiences the world. On the other hand, if my five year old grandson came to me and said, Hey, I’d like to talk to you about the financial aspects of how you run your business. Well, that’s not a level playing field, but giving is the great equalizer because it’s based upon that work that the Holy Spirit’s doing in your heart. So, we can come together and start talking about things that we care about. And of course, the beauty of family giving is it’s a way that you reinforce your family mission, vision, and values
Bob:
When this podcast comes out, because we prerecord it in advance, but when it comes out, we’re going to be less than 6 months from Thanksgiving and Christmas time. I just think about that time of the year, where you’re getting together and you’re focused on giving and thinking about how much are we going to spend on ski vacations or Hawaii trips. Some may not have that privilege to do that, but some do or how much are we just going to spend on Christmas presents, even if we all stay here and maybe taking a part of that, opening up a donor advised fund and saying children, even if their older children, adult children, grandchildren, we’ve put this money here into this foundation and we want y’all to be involved in helping us give it to worthy causes that would align with Christian principles.
Bill:
Yeah. I mean, I think what we all desire as parents or grandparents, the scriptures say that a foolish son is a grief to his mother or to his father. The great tragedy is when we see kids who walk away from the faith and don’t live out our values and there’ll be those that will listen to this podcast that say, “Oh yeah, that’s me.” On the other hand, there will also be those families that would say, man, the greatest joy I have is to see that my children are walking in the truth. That’s what Paul said as he wrote some of his letters. John said that as well. When our kids walk on a truth, we celebrate. And so my own quick little story in that is we started giving together as a family. When my youngest son was three years old and we’d sit around the dinner table and we would have these occasions where we had talk about man, here’s things we’re going to give to, and it gave us an occasion to talk about our family values. Again, my youngest son was a little bit more than 33 and he was participating and it was kind of a hilarious story in our first family meeting. I think our oldest was 10 at the time, and she was appointed an officer and we appointed. Well, my youngest son true to his personality was appointed the Sergeant at Arms, even as a 3 year old. But the bottom line is we’ve done that giving throughout all these years. And so today he’s now 23 and he graduated from college. When he got his first job, now mind you, this is a first job out of college. So, he’s not making a ton of money, but I ended up getting a phone call and this doesn’t happen every day. But because it was my son, the person on our customer care team called me up and said, by the way, did you know that your son just set up a donor advised fund? I’m like, no, I didn’t. And it was this beautiful testimony, really, that something had stuck. He realized that he wanted to continue to be a giver. And again, this is kind of the illustration that you don’t have to be wealthy to set this thing up, but he chose to be intentional about his giving because something had stuck with him.
Bob:
From the time he was three years old, he was watching. I remember when we used to tithe, when I say we’ve used to, we still tithe, but when we were in church and our children were young, we would hand them the check and say, you put that into the offering plate. Sometimes, they’d try to open up to see how much it was and they would. Their eyes would get real big, and they would see that we’re given as a family. They would say why are you giving it to me? Because we’re giving as a family, and I think that still sticks with my children. So, I encourage all of you that you make giving part of the family, not just mom and dad, but make it part of the family so that everyone is participating and giving. Well, Bill, I want to thank you for taking time out today to talk to us about legacy planning. I want all my listeners to know that I’m here to help you with this. I want to end today’s podcast on a few thoughts just about legacy and how important it is that we leave a legacy. I was just thinking about this as I came to the end, what if I had a letter from my great, great, great grandpa or grandma that shared what it was like for them when they grew up and shared their struggles and victories in life and how they knew the Lord and how they gave and how they served him. I can tell you, if I had a letter like that from my great, great, great grandfather, it would just be cherished. I think all of us, if we think about it, if we had a letter like that about what was important to them, that would be part of our legacy. I want to encourage you, in the next few days or weeks, to sit down and write out those things that are important to you and maybe set up that giving plan that will carry on for many generations and share with your family those struggles and victories in life and what your vision was and what your mission was and what you valued most, your beliefs, your hopes, and your dreams for the future generations of the family. You think about as the future generations read that, that will strike them and they’ll want to continue that legacy as I want to continue that legacy of my great, great, great grandfather that was known for Christian charity way back in the 1830s and 1840s in what is now known as Travis County in Texas. That’s all for today. Bill, thank you for taking time out. Any last words you want to say?
Bill:
I just want to encourage people that this is worth it and just check yourself a little bit. Say, have I been following a biblical definition of family or a cultural definition? And then dig deep into the scriptures to say really, what are those verses about the whole idea of legacy in generations? And if you do that, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised that God really does care about family, and it’s been intended to be generational in nature.
Bob:
I’ll end on that good note. That’s all for today.
[CONCLUSION]
That’s all for now. We invite you to listen to all of our past episodes covering many financial topics from a Christian Perspective. To make sure you don’t miss any of Bob’s upcoming episodes you can subscribe to Christian Financial Perspectives on iTunes, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher. To learn more about integrating your faith with your finances, visit ciswealth.com or call 830-609-6986.
[DISCLOSURES]
Comments from today’s show are for informational purposes only and not to be considered investment advice or recommendations to buy or sell any company that may have been mentioned or discussed. The opinions expressed are solely those of the host, Bob Barber and his guests. Bob does not provide tax advice and encourages you to seek guidance from a tax professional. Investment advisory services offered through Christian Investment Advisors Inc. DBA Christian Financial Advisors, a registered investment advisor.
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June 19, 2020 78 – Husband/Wife Communication With Finances
Click below to listen to Episode 78 – Husband/Wife Communication With Finances
78 – Husband/Wife Communication With Finances

Learn about resolving financial conflict in marriage.

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This episode covers one of the most common topics when it comes to marital conflict – finances. When it comes to marital communication about finances, many of us have differing expectations. Oftentimes, it is the very values that we were brought up with that are at the heart of a conflict. Joining Bob in offering her expertise on this subject is speaker and consultant, Sharon Epps.
Sharon helps churches and individuals energize stewardship and generosity. She is also the founder of Women Doing Well, a “Christ centered organization that helps women of influence and affluence find their purpose and passion in life and develop a plan for how to further their personal generosity journey”.
Husband/wife communication is one of Sharon’s favorite topics. She has seen how money conversations can be stressful between a husband and a wife when all that’s really needed is a clarifying conversation. Money conflicts can have some real roots in deeper issues and, left alone without counseling, can divide a couple.

GUESTS: Sharon Epps of “Women Doing Well”
HOSTED BY: Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®
Download The Couple’s Listening Guide Below

Download the communication guide, “Couples Values Exercise”, that was mentioned in this podcast episode.
DOWNLOAD THE GUIDE
Mentioned In This Episode

Christian Financial Advisors
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Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®

Sharon Epps
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Women Doing Well
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[INTRODUCTION]
Welcome to “Christian Financial Perspectives”, where you’re invited to gain insight, wisdom and knowledge about how Christians integrate their faith, life and finances with a Biblical Worldview. Here’s your host Christian Investment Advisor, Financial Planner, and Coach Bob Barber.
[EPISODE]
Bob:
Genesis 2:21-24, “So the Lord caused the man to fall into a deep sleep and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man and he brought her to the man. The man said, ‘This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman for she was taken out of man.’ This is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife and they become one flesh.” The word that really sticks out to me in there is that the man and wife, they leave their mother and father and they become one. It’s about oneness. So today on our podcast, we’re going to be talking about marriage and oneness and combining finances with that. Now, I know we all have different expectations when it comes to that and brought up with different values when it comes to finance. I know with my wife and I, with Rachael and I, you hear me talk about Rachael a lot, we have very different values. She grew up in a military family. I grew up in a very laid back family. So she was real structured, mine was real laid back. My dad was always just about having fun and it really came from different values, but we’ve been able to take that and compliment each other. So, we’re going to tackle this subject, and I’m excited to have a guest on the program with me today, Sharon Epps. I heard her speak first on husband, wife communication and finances in a monthly Bible study. Y’all have heard me mention before many times Kingdom Advisors, and I’m a Certified Kingdom Advisor®. So, one month she did the study “building a bridge for husband, wife communication” and Sharon, she’s the founder of Women Doing Well, which is a Christ centered organization. It helps women of influence and affluence find their purpose and passion in life and develop a plan for how to further their personal generosity. I’m excited to have her on and Sharon is here. So Sharon, welcome to Christian Financial Perspectives.
Sharon:
Thank you Bob. Husband and wife communication is one of my favorite topics. So I’m really looking forward to this conversation. In fact, even in the scripture you read, I was reminded of the fact that God did make us to be one flesh, and that indicates unity. But unity isn’t the same as sameness. And in fact, one of my mentors, the late Larry Burkett used to always say, “If both of you were alike, one of you would be unnecessary.” So I just love that as we start this conversation to think about the fact that one flesh isn’t all the same, it just means that we come together in unity.
Bob:
You mentioned Larry Burkett, and he was one of my mentors. I loved him. I still remember listening to him and my wife tell you, I remember the day when I heard of him passing to go be with the Lord and we were going on vacation to Colorado. You remember those things like that because he meant so much to my life. And she looked and she saw me bawling. I said, this man served God so well, and he was the one that just brought money to the forefront in the Christian realm and that it all belongs to God. So, he was quite a man. So true what you said. I’ve been around so many money conversations and they can be stressful between a husband and wife, but really what’s needed is clarification. I think it’s stressful because nothing’s clear many times and it can have some real roots in some deeper issues and left alone, without counseling, I’ve seen it divide a couple and we know the stats are really high that divorce is many times caused by finances. I also like, and I know that you were talking about this when I heard you speak, we have been given some great examples in scripture to follow for money harmony. One is that Priscilla and Aquila that were co-tent makers with the apostle Paul. There’s some great examples here, and I would like you to share some of those examples.
Sharon:
I would really be glad to. And by the way, I don’t know how to pronounce it either. We were talking a little bit earlier. I’m a native Texan. I live in Georgia now, but still have my Texas roots and so I think I grew up with Priscilla and Aquilla and then I’ve heard several different Bible scholars present it a different way, but I think we’ll just keep the Texan for the moment and hopefully that will work for everybody.
Bob:
Hey, that sounds good. I understand that Texan.
Sharon:
There we go. Yeah, there we go. I actually, if you would, I think there’s one element to this before we jump into that story, which is so rich that I would like to bring in from the life of Jesus. I really would like to have us think back to probably a fairly familiar story and that is Jesus with the Samaritan woman at the well. I won’t take the time to tell it all, but basically Jesus encountered a woman that both society and traditional religious rules would say he should not have even given the time of day. He spent the time with her really revealing himself to her. And quite frankly, I think she got it better than some of the people of the Jewish culture at that time. But what I wanted to hone in on in that story is that after he had the encounter with her, if you remember, and this story is found in the book of John chapter four, but she went back to the people of the town and said you’ve got to come listen to this guy, and this is the piece that think’s really relevant to our conversation on husband, wife communication because what she said was, he told me everything I’ve done, or in the message version, this is John 4:39 she said, “He knew all about the things I did. He knows me inside and out. He knows me inside and out.” And the reason I wanted to bring that up is I think as we start diving into some of these principles with Priscilla and Aquilla, if there’s just one bottom line as husbands and wives, is are you a student of your spouse? And I know that was a lot of fun in the days before we got married and we were dating and we were exploring everything about them, but quite frankly have been married 26 years and it’s easy sometimes to think you already know everything about your spouse. So, just that story to me is the bedrock or the foundation. When we start exploring a storyline like Priscilla and Aquilla, I’m really convinced that their marriage was a marriage that they knew each other inside and out, and they were able to share with each other all the aspects of their life just because of the way that the Bible presents them. So, I wanted to lay that as a little bit of foundation and maybe perhaps even a little challenge question here in the beginning is, “Are you a student of your spouse and could they confidently say that you know them inside and out?”
Bob:
I have to say something there. Yes, I’m a student of my spouse. We’ve been married 35 years, and I still can’t figure her out.
Sharon:
Well maybe some of the principles we’ll talk about today will help you a little bit.
Bob:
I always learn when I’m doing the podcasts. I’m the best student right here. I learn more than anybody.
Sharon:
Okay, well I took a little detour there, but I think it’s a bit of a foundational principle as we go into this story about Priscilla and Aquila. So, the first thing I want to point out is if you look at the biblical references with Priscilla and Aquila, they are mentioned in the Bible six times in Acts and 1 Corinthians and Romans as well. So they occur many times throughout the scriptural account. And I think one of the first observations I’ll make is that one is never referred to without the other. And so when you see a mention of Priscilla, you will always see Aquila, too. And I think that’s a great sign that they traveled their journey together. They worked and served and ministered together. Just some basics of the story, if you’re not too familiar with them, is they were tent makers and they actually partnered with Paul, the apostle Paul, and made tents. They were exiles from Roman persecution. And I think the key is that as they lived their life, they made tents and they served in ministry together, is the key word was together. They were able to bridge this husband and wife communication in a way that allowed them to work and serve and be a part of the early church together. So I think it’s from that foundation, if you do want to look up even more about their story, you’ll see a lot of in Acts 18. They’re also referenced in Romans 16 where Paul just really talks about how special they are to him and how they’re encouragers of his ministry. And then we also learned in 1 Corinthians 16 that they actually had a church that met in their home. We’ve got a great look at this life of this couple, I think, that helps us learn some examples of how to communicate better as spouses.
Bob:
What a positive example. Like Forrest Gump would say, they were like peas and carrots. They were always together. And that speaks volumes too. Opposites attract. So they learned to work together. And I bet there’s a lot of bridge building principles that we can learn from them being together if we really look at them. Do you have some of those bridge building principles?
Sharon:
Yes. I’ll test you and see if you can say that 10 times fast.
Bob:
That’s a tough one. I know, I was getting tongue twisted saying it. It’s a hard one.
Sharon:
Well, I think there are several that we can look at and I think the first one I already really mentioned and that is they obviously spent time together. And so, I think the first principle is that distance tends to produce misunderstanding and conflict. So they had a life that they were able to work, really lockstep, together throughout each day. And I realized that for most of us listening to this, including myself, I don’t have the luxury of getting to work with my husband all day every day, but I can be intentional about bridging the distance and making sure that we don’t let days go by where distance impacts our ability to communicate. And I think as we’re recording this in a season of quarantine from the COVID-19 virus, many of us may be thinking, wow, I’d actually like a little more distance. So this may be a season where this first principle is being accentuated, but we have the opportunity to reduce distance and I’m hoping that during the season, perhaps you and your spouse have found times of additional communication that you may not have in the busy-ness of your everyday life that would be a practice that you would perhaps keep even after the season passes. I know for my husband and I, we have gotten in the habit during this quarantine of taking a walk almost every day together, and that’s been a really great time where we had an opportunity to communicate just more intentionally in a way that we don’t when we’re busy about the house doing our different things in a normal schedule.
Bob:
I think a lot of people would relate to that statement that you just said. I mean, I live in a unique subdivision where everybody has 15 to 20 acres. So, we’re very spread out, but still I’ve been seeing everybody out walking as a couple and you’re right. We need to do more of that.
Sharon:
Yes. Yeah. So simple things. Sometimes, I think we tend to think it has to be something hard or time consuming, but a 15 or 20 minute walk could even make all the difference in the world, and it helps us get a little bit more in shape too. So, that never hurts. So another principle, I think, is having those intentional conversations towards goals. So it’s one thing to have the casual conversations and reconnect every day. That’s number one. But number two is setting aside intentionally to work towards goals, hopes, aspirations, dreams, those kinds of things. We’ll talk about that a little bit more as we talk about implementing these. But I think there is a difference between daily connects and those times we set aside to be intentional to look forward and consider where are we headed as a couple and where are we headed as a family. So that, I think, would be the second one, just setting aside specific time to be aligned on goals and outcomes. Going back to Priscilla and Aquila, not only were they building tents together, but they started a church in their home and they had to have conversations about what does this mean and how do we do this? And when you invite people into your home and practice hospitality, it takes coordination between spouses to do that. And I think both are important, both the longer term goals and just those daily connects. I think the third thing would be that understanding is different than just communicating, and so we want to build a communication bridge that goes to a deeper level of understanding. And that’s something that’s intentional. Be a student of your spouse, as I mentioned earlier. What is it that that person is trying to say? I’ll just be transparent here and say that might be one of my greatest challenges with my husband. We have a great relationship, but we also have 26 years of communicating with each other. And sometimes, old tapes come to the surface instead of a true sense of understanding. And so, particularly when it’s issues that are hot buttons or maybe even things that have been challenges for us before. Sometimes, just an innocent comment by our spouse can set us off. I think this is particularly true in money. So I want to tie this to the money conversation particularly. We have many things that impact our perspective of money. And you mentioned earlier just even the differences in your wife’s family of origin and your’s, and it’s not only true just in the way you operate your schedule, but it’s also true in the way that you handle money. So, many times when we are not communicating well about money, it doesn’t have anything to do with the money at all. It may have to do with the way that I view money in my family of origin. It may have to do with the way I’m just wired by God. So, am I wired naturally to be a spender or a saver? And if I’m wired to be a saver and my husband walks in and he’s just made a purchase that was unplanned, then just immediately, almost, that will set me into a conflict mode. I think it’s important to listen for understanding rather than playing those tapes over and over. And then I think the fourth thing is that, sorry, the fifth. Yes. So honoring God in this journey will help bridge your communication as well. And I think the key there is, again, going back to Priscilla and Aquila, they were growing in faith together and I think as a couple to the extent that each of you are interested in the Lord and living a lifestyle that would please him, coming back, and having opportunities to grow in your faith will also grow your communication and your alignment and your unity because that’s the way that the Lord made us.
Bob:
So I’ve got this – spend time together, have intentional conversations, get to understand each other. It’s really interesting. I learned something, I guess it was about 10 or 12 years ago, that repeat back to somebody, “Is this what I heard you say?” And so many times when I repeat that back, they go, no, that’s not what I was saying. So I’ve learned to repeat back, and it helps me to stay engaged with my very hyperactive, Type A, ADD mode that I’m in, you know? So, it helps me to be a good listener. You’re talking about the financial, I think you’re right. It doesn’t always have to do with financial, but it has to do with something else. I wonder if that word, many times, is trust? If there’s arguments in the financial area about when you mention something, is it because you’re saying I don’t trust you? I don’t know. I thought of that while you were saying that.
Sharon:
I guess it could partly be that, but I think this is where I’d love to maybe share some fresh research. My dear friend, Shaunti Feldhan, is a researcher and author and has just released a new book called “Thriving In Love And Money”. I was talking with her about this topic the other day of the clash and what causes the clash. First thing I’ll tell you is that she found that 77% of couples report that they don’t do well discussing money. I mean three quarters, and this is believers and nonbelievers alike, say hey this money thing is an awkward thing for us. And so she actually conducted mixed methods research, several thousand respondents across the country this past year. And as they dug down into those findings, they really saw that the conflict boiled down to two or three key things. The first one was just differences in values, not values as in right or wrong, but values as in what’s really important to me. And so one example of how husband and wife can have different values – it may be that for one it’s very important to spend time together and the other may have a value of being a provider or being a contributor to the finances. And so it’s like for the one spouse that’s spending time together, they see spending money as a trade off so we get more time. I’m going to go pick up dinner so that we can save time and get to spend time together. And the other spouse who is maybe thinking about providing and having a nest egg and enough money might say they clash over it. Not because they don’t want to go out to dinner, but they don’t see that time value. They’re seeing the wait, we’re hitting our reserves. We’re using money and it’s important to me that we have an appropriate nest egg, but usually that doesn’t come out on the surface. Usually, it’s a less obvious argument. And so think that clash of values, what’s important to me is important. I think the other thing that was significant to me that she shared with me is just that there’s a clash of fears. We have different things that we’re afraid of, and we don’t always talk about that. What are the things that I’m afraid of? Sometimes, that’s expressed with our money as well. So, I think the main thing.
Bob:
You’re speaking to me. I’m like, wait a second, I am one of those 77% that don’t do well with discussing money. Yeah. I’m all about, “I’m the provider”, and my wife’s like, “Let’s spend time together talking.” I’m like, well, I’ve been providing, why don’t we need to spend time together? And then there’s that fear. I mean, see, I’m learning myself. Great discussion.
Sharon:
Yeah. So I think that the key there is it may present itself as a money issue, but I would say most of the time there’s something behind that. And if we can set aside the money issue long enough to explore what the other issue is, then money actually isn’t that hard. Another mentor of mine and friend, Ron Blue, always says that money is a test, a tool, and a testimony. And I think that as couples we can see that lived out. Really, money isn’t what we’re disagreeing about. It’s a deeper issue.
Bob:
I’m going to sum this all up again, but it’s hard to sum it up because it’s so deep. The issues that come with talking finances and marriage, and I’m like so you’ve given me some great ideas. I understand to spend time together in conversation, but is there a tool you can give me that can help me put this all together?
Sharon:
Yes. I think one of the tools we’ve created at Women Doing Well is what we call a couples values exercise. Because at the end of the day, what I value will impact by the lens through which I make all kinds of decisions, financial and otherwise. There are core values that probably, as a couple, you have worked through for years, but there’s also just individual values, the way that God’s uniquely wired me, the things that are important to me, the things that I want to make sure that my children pass on to their children that sometimes have to be uncovered or discovered. I think even being married 20 and 30 and 40 years, you can still uncover things that a couple values or that each individual in the couple values. I’ll give you an example for me that it took a while for us as a couple to figure out. I value a work ethic that’s a consistent work ethic and my husband values work. He also highly values leisure and connection times, and so it took us a while to figure out that neither one of those values were wrong. In fact, they’re very important. It’s very important to have a good work ethic. It’s also very important to have balance and leisure and those kinds of things. But we never argued and said, Oh, you’ve got a work ethic and Oh, you value leisure. We didn’t use those terms because we did not realize that that was the source of some of our miscommunication and some of the conflict in our marriage. And then finally, we had the opportunity to work through a values tool similar to the one that we’ll talk about. And we realized that they were two core values that were both important. They were both important for our family and we needed to communicate better how we played them out and why they were important to us and our family. And it was really once we were able to communicate clearly with each other about both of those things that we could present a unified front to our children with each other and we could have it put into language to our conversation so that rather than us disagreeing about something, and I’ll make it super practical. One of the places that came to bear was we used to really have tension over the dishes being done after a meal. And so for me, it was super important that as soon as you got up from the table, you did the dishes. Well for him, it was super important that you take a little extra time and we might even go for a walk or play a game of cards before we did dishes. And it was just a different value, but the conflict came. We thought we were arguing over doing the dishes, but we really weren’t. It was a work and leisure kind of conversation and once we learned to use that language, we were able to come to agreements on how we handled things. And that’s true of money conversations. It’s true really these tools can be used throughout all areas of a marriage.
Bob:
So in this values exercise, I printed this off before we started and it reminded me of when we went through this study a couple of years ago, you actually look at what is least important and most important to each one and you put it on like a staircase, and the amount of words that you have below that. Are you supposed to like circle those words? You’ve got a lot of words here, some go over some of these, and what we’ll do is we’ll make this available on our podcast website so somebody can just click on it and pull this up.
Sharon:
Yeah. So, I highly recommend that. Now what we did is we provided a word bank. So, if I sit down with my spouse and say, what do you value? That takes a while to think through. I value God. It’s sort of vague.
Bob:
Exactly. I was going to ask you that earlier. Values can mean a lot of things.
Sharon:
They can, yeah. Yeah. And so what we did is we developed a word bank of words that tend to be underlying values. They may have come from your family of origin. They may have come just as you continue to navigate through life. There’s words such as, I’ll give you just a few, accountability, efficiency, fun, teamwork. So they’re not words that have right or wrong attached to them. They’re ways of living and approaches to life that different people, different personalities, and different mindsets are expressed differently. It’s part of that beautiful kaleidoscope of the way that God made us. We’re all made unique but yet all reflect his image. And so what we’re really saying is, as you look at what’s important to you, what part of this kaleidoscope, how can we learn more about the beauty of this kaleidoscope that God created in you?
Sharon:
And so, we give you just a word bank of, I don’t know, there’s probably 50 or 60 words. And as you go through it what I really recommend is you take one pass through it and just circle the words that stand out to you. Which ones are appealing to you or are you think, “Yeah, I resonate with that.: And you may come up with 10, 15, 20 words circled and then we just ask you to go back and rank the first five. Which ones are really, really important to you? We do present a little bit of a stair-step just as a visual to say, Hey, what are the things that make me tick And that make me crazy if those things aren’t a part of our family? And so, the main thing here is as you’re ranking these values, it’s not that you get exactly that number two or number three or four are exactly in the right order, but we’re just trying to highlight what are the things that are important to you that you could have a conversation around with your spouse. But the other thing that I really want to hone in on is that you do this values exercise the first step by yourself so you’re not trying to negotiate with your spouse. This is your own ranking and then you will actually, in another step, come back and meet with your spouse and have an opportunity to go through the list.
Bob:
You do this each individually, and I see that. And as I look at this, it gets me excited because I’m kind of, I don’t know, like a load of bricks or something getting through to my head sometimes about the things that are most important to my wife. I mean, she tells me this is what’s important to me, but maybe I wouldn’t see it. Would I give one of these to her and then I take one and we fill them out. And then without discussing, really, we just give it to each other and let us mole that a little bit and look at it and then we come back and discuss it. Because I have a feeling that I’m going to see some things on here that I thought was the most important thing to Rachel that might not be that important because I just assume a lot of things.
Sharon:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s easy to do that for sure. Yes. I think the whole value of this exercise, it comes from approaching it as a student of your spouse. I think the mindset that you just described is what we’re looking for is, “Hey, there’s some things about you I may have pegged wrong or that I might need to discover better.” And so this is more of an exploratory exercise and a discovery type of exercise. I want to know more what you’re thinking. And so that’s why we actually created, with this exercise, not only the ranking of the values, but a conversation guide. Because sometimes if we are left our own devices, we may try to lobby for a certain value or we may try to sell that my value is more important than yours. And if we’ve done that, we’ve completely defeated the purpose of the exercise. So, in order to help avoid that, we really ask several questions that help keep us in a mindset of being a discoverer or a student by asking your spouse, “What stood out to you about my list? Is there something on my list as surprised you?” And just start really having a dialogue. And we hear reports of such rich dialogue that occurs when couples take the time to do this. What do we see about our values that are similar and different? I hope some of them are different. If you’re 100% the same, then you miss some of that richness that comes from being a couple. Are there some places where you feel like your values are being challenged? The example I used about the dishes, that’s a very simple one, but once we were able to work through this issue, what I was able to articulate for the first time is I don’t really want to be a nag about getting the dishes done. It’s really that my value of getting your work done first or having a work ethic, is being played out here. In my head and emotions, if the dishes get left out for five hours, it makes me feel like my value of work is being challenged. And so that’d be a great example of how I would answer that number three. I’m able to take something that has been a lightning rod for us in the past, and turn it into a meaningful dialogue about the value underneath it.
Bob:
As we’re talking about this, there’s going to be many that are listening to the podcast that will say, I want to do that, but there’s no way my spouse to do it. There’s some transparency here that definitely comes along and where we need to build those bridge building techniques of laying this before the cross and praying about this because would some spouses be scared this could open up something. It’s like things need to be cleaned out, you’ve got to sweep under your bed sometime, and it’s not always easy. Can you speak into that a little bit?
Sharon:
Sure. First of all, if it’s a conversation you just feel like you totally can’t have, then I think probably an outside third party, a Christian financial counselor, would probably be helpful. I think the other thing is I really recommend prayerful approach to this and it may be that you, the one that’s willing to go through this type of exercise, need to spend some time practicing being a student of your spouse before asking them to be a student of you. And so I think a first step is if you’re not at a place where you feel like you can ask to have this level of a conversation, maybe challenge yourself for a week or two weeks or even 30 days to just say, what can I do to be a better student of my spouse? I’m not going to ask them to be a student of me yet, but how can I be a better student of them? How can I ask them meaningful questions and just show them that I’m interested in seeing them in a new light and in a deeper way. And I think that can start the ball rolling. Again, if you have such a barrier that you don’t feel like you can even do that, then there’s probably a time for a Christian counselor to help look at what the deeper issues are.
Bob:
When you were sharing in the beginning, we were talking about spending time together, intentional conversation, understanding that financial doesn’t always have to do with money and then that fifth one honoring God. I’ve been very involved in Family Life Ministry in the past and we used to teach a lot of the Homebuilder’s Bible S`tudy by Family Life and those series through Dennis Rainey. We taught resolving conflict in marriage and managing money in marriage. I remember them always saying, you put God at the center and the further one of you gets away from God, the farther you are from each other. But if you’re in sync with God, so think of it left, right, and God’s in the center. As you come closer to God, you’re coming closer together.
Sharon:
Yes, that’s true.
Bob:
But one spouse may not be there, so you come closer to God because as you are coming closer to God, you are coming closer to your spouse, even if they’re not. Just by coming closer to God, you’re coming closer to your spouse.
Sharon:
Yes. I think that’s an excellent illustration.
Bob:
Sarah. We’ve shared a lot today. I’m going to definitely make this assessment available to everyone, and I would encourage you to go to our website, Christianfinancialpodcast.com. We’re calling today’s podcast husband, wife, communication with finances, and we’ll have that there for you. Is there anything that we didn’t cover in regards to this today?
Sharon:
I think the main thing I would just emphasize is the role of prayer. I mentioned it, but I think that’s a key piece. I mean it goes along with the illustration you just gave, but at the end of the day, God’s created us to be a picture of unity that really reflects the Godhead. In order for us as a couple to be unified, we need this ability to talk freely about not just the surface issues but these values because these values then drive how we make decisions. And so I think if I left you with one thing, it would be pray about what your next step would be on this journey and look at the tool. But the tool is just that, it’s not an ultimate outcome. I think the question is how would God lead you to be a better student of your spouse?
Bob:
I want to end on that. I guess there is one last thing. I remember my brother who was with Family Life Ministry. He served with Dennis Rainey for over 20 years. He always said marriage is like taking the heart out and dissecting it, and it’s constant growth. So remember that, too. None of us are perfect. We all need Jesus Christ in our lives. And if you don’t know the Lord, I would love to talk to you about that and bring you into that personal relationship with Christ because there’s so much that he wants to offer you through his word and through his Holy Spirit. I just cannot imagine not having Christ in our marriage because I’ll tell you, my wife and I are about as opposite as you get, but we’ve been married 35 years and we’ve been able to go through it because we knew God was at the center and that was the glue that held us together. And when you meet these couples that have been married 50 and 60 years, you hear that all the time. So, I think that’s going to do it today for our podcast. I want to thank you for listening. If you want to give me a call, our phone number is (830) 609-6986 or you can go to our website at ciswealth.com. Sharon, thank you for taking 40 minutes out of your day to share this with us, and I hope we’ve had a really good positive impact on couple’s lives for the glory of God.
[CONCLUSION]
That’s all for now. We invite you to listen to all of our past episodes covering many financial topics from a Christian Perspective. To make sure you don’t miss any of Bob’s upcoming episodes you can subscribe to Christian Financial Perspectives on iTunes, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher. To learn more about integrating your faith with your finances, visit ciswealth.com or call 830-609-6986.
[DISCLOSURES]
Comments from today’s show are for informational purposes only and not to be considered investment advice or recommendations to buy or sell any company that may have been mentioned or discussed. The opinions expressed are solely those of the host, Bob Barber and his guests. Bob does not provide tax advice and encourages you to seek guidance from a tax professional. Investment advisory services offered through Christian Investment Advisors Inc. DBA Christian Financial Advisors, a registered investment advisor.
39 min
June 05, 2020 77 – Pursuing Significance At Life’s Halftime
Click below to listen to Episode 77 – Pursuing Significance At Life’s Halftime
77 – Pursuing Significance At Life’s Halftime

Join in as Bob discusses finding your calling in life with Halftime Institute founder Lloyd Reeb.

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Many of us reach a point in life where we have achieved some measure of success and might have even accumulated more than we need, yet there’s still something missing. Eventually, we come to realize that accumulating more things or pursuing career advancement is simply not enough and we want our lives to count for something that will live on long after we’re gone. Bob is joined by special guest Lloyd Reeb, the founding partner and spokesman for the Halftime Institute.
The Halftime Institute is a global organization that provides learning experiences to peer groups, and coaches men and women through what they call a “mid-life renewal”. He is the primary spokesperson for the Halftime movement, which is helping successful people pursue and find significance for their lives. His book, “From Success to Significance – When the Pursuit of Success Isn’t Enough”, is a roadmap for those in a mid-life transition, as well as “Halftime for Couples” written by Lloyd and his wife, Linda, of 37 years.

GUESTS: Lloyd Reeb
HOSTED BY: Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®
Mentioned In This Episode

Christian Financial Advisors
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Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®

Lloyd Reeb
Lloyd ReebLinkedin

Halftime Institute
Halftime InstituteHalftime Institute FacebookHalftime Institute TwitterHalftime Institute LinkedInHalftime Institute YouTube Channel

From Success To Significance
From Success To Significance

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[INTRODUCTION]
Welcome to “Christian Financial Perspectives”, where you’re invited to gain insight, wisdom and knowledge about how Christians integrate their faith, life and finances with a Biblical Worldview. Here’s your host Christian Investment Advisor, Financial Planner, and Coach Bob Barber.
[EPISODE]
Bob:
So this is Bob Barber and for today’s podcast I have a special guest, Lloyd Reeb, and I’ve known Lloyd for a long time. He’s with an institute called the Halftime Institute, and I’m going to read something to you. It’s off page five of this book called “Halftime For Couples”, and this is setting up for today’s interview with Lloyd. So here it goes. “We Meet them in our neighborhood, listen to their stories on airplanes, and hear them at parties and it’s easy to see how they got here. They are all looked up to, sophisticated and seasoned. They are successful by every normal measure, but something’s missing in their inner world. Surrounded by noise and buried and crazy schedules, their most cherished relationships are not as rich as they wish. They want their lives to count for more, but they feel trapped by their corporate or professional identities. Their lifestyles, while affluent, seem demanding. Their dreams are buried under blankets of responsibility. Their spouses, meanwhile, often are resigned to the distance and loneliness that comes from these crazy schedules. A lack of intimacy can begin to feel routine, normal, and acceptable. It doesn’t have to be this way, but they don’t really know how to have a deeper conversation about what they’re experiencing at mid life.” Wow. Lloyd that is powerful out of y’alls book, halftime for couples. Welcome to the podcast.
Lloyd:
Thank you, Bob. Yeah. You know, that’s a little bit of a sad story, but also maybe if it resonates with our hearts, it’s pointing us to something that could be far brighter and richer, a journey maybe for the second half that has more intimacy, more meaning, and purpose and less activity and less busy-ness. It’s like what Jesus said. If you follow me, I’ll teach you the unforced rhythms of grace. In our second half, if we have been blessed with some measure of freedom or options or success, we can retool our lives together if we happen to be married instead of drifting. And when we drift, what I find is most couples that drift into their second half, they have some plans. They have plans around travel. They have plans around where they’re going to live in the winter and the summer. They have hobby plans. They might have, but not all, have a financial and estate plan, but very seldom do they have a plan for their life that’s rooted in their calling. How to get from here to there is the question. Linda and I have had the privilege of being on the journey with hundreds and hundreds of other couples and pretty much every planet over the last 20 years since we started the halftime Institute with Bob Buford and it’s a journey.
Bob:
Y’all might be wondering who is Lloyd? Well, Lloyd, he’s been a successful real estate developer, and he’s made a halftime transition. In 1993 he started this and he looked at success, and he reoriented his focus toward a life that has a second half of significance as he calls it. Not only has he written this book “Halftime For Couples” with his wife, Linda – is that 37 years I’ve been married now?
Lloyd:
[Jokingly] That’s right. Yeah. I married Linda when she was 12.
Bob:
[Laughing] Man, you know how to get points. And he’s also written a book called “Success To Significance”. For 15 years, he’s dedicated his life to speaking about this subject of halftime issues. And I heard him speak at the recent Kingdom Advisors conference in Orlando where he spoke on this second half and he broke this process down into seven parts that we’re really going to go into today. And it really starts with reflection. And what do you mean by that, Lloyd, when you say reflection?
Lloyd:
Well, you know, very often you reach a turning point in life and you might call it halftime. Like in football, you take a pause, you go into the locker room, you think about what went well and didn’t go well in the first half of the game. And incidentally, most games are won and lost in the second half. So, it’s a pause in midlife. Now, the interesting thing is, well why do we think there’s two halves to life? Well, you know the average life expectancy in America a hundred years ago was 47 or 48. So you came out of high school if you got a high school education. You worked hard your whole life, maybe in a factory or on a farm. You had children. Some of them died of infant mortality. You had aches and pains at 48 or 49 that you and I wouldn’t expect or tolerate in this time in history, and you are at the end of your average life expectancy. And not only that, because you are a manual worker, your best years of contribution were behind you. But today when you reach 50 you have 30 bonus years that you didn’t have on average back then. At a turning point in your career, if you’ve worked from 20 to 50, you look up from your desk and wonder, okay, is this all these is? Is there something else for this next season of my life? What was I put on this planet to do? And if you’ve been staying at home raising a family, if you’ve chosen to be at home raising a family, then kids start leaving for college. And maybe the last one trundles off. And I don’t know about you, Bob. When we dropped our little girl Jenny off at college, I was fiddling around, you know, saying to her, honey, do you want fridge here and is your bed at the right height? And what about this closet? And finally, Jenny came to me and said, dad, I know what you’re doing. I said, what? She said, you’re stalling.
Bob:
Yes. I got to admit, I remember – our daughter’s name is Jenna – and we dropped her off at Liberty University and I was doing the same exact thing. So, I’m with your brother.
Lloyd:
Yeah. And then they take you to your car, they give you a hug and a kiss, and they turn around and what? They turnaround and what? Walk away. And your job description has just changed, whether you like it or not. The question is, what will you do with the second half? Will you invest it in a way that you and your family celebrate a hundred years from now? Or, will you squander it? Picking up shells on a beach somewhere, playing golf or tennis, doing Bible study even. Without clarity about your calling, you can squander your second half doing things that are good and acceptable, but maybe not the best. I think the best footing when you stare into the second half of 30 bonus years and ask yourself, “How can I make this the best season of my life?” It’s to study heaven. Every August I take out my books on heaven, including Randy Alcorn’s book on heaven, which is a treaties, and it’s really a reference book. It’s thick. It’s deep. It’s cumbersome.
Bob:
You’re not kidding about that. We listened to that last year on the way to Colorado, the audio version. Man, that’ll take you places you never thought you’d go.
Lloyd:
Exactly. But what happens is it recalibrates your thinking. You know, it’s perfectly acceptable in Christian circles to have a good career. Save your money, live responsibly. Accumulate wealth. Protect your kids by sending them to, you know, a private school or homeschooling them, and cultivate their hearts and instill God’s word in their hearts. And in so doing, hope that it protects them from harm and sets us up for comfort. But this is not a cruise ship. This is a battleship. And when you find yourself at midlife with 30 bonus years, you have a choice to either focus on comfort and entertainment and what’s going to be nice for me or pushing the pause button and looking up and making eye contact with God and getting your unique assignment from him and then going and doing it with everything you have. Following God always involves risk and sacrifice. There’s no avoiding it because he doesn’t need you. He wants you and he’s using this time, the short time of life on earth to shape your heart and character. When you and I opt out for a life of leisure and comfort and all of the Christian norms of middle-income or upper income Christianity in America, we’re actually missing out on the grand adventure that we would celebrate a hundred years from now. The best antidote I find for me personally because God’s blessed us with success, I’ve had 25 years of financial freedom. I’m 58 years old. It’s so easy for comfort and security to take over my life. When I study heaven each August, it re-buoys me. It focuses me on the longterm. How do I want to invest my hours here on this planet that will be in my own longterm best interest a hundred years from now or a thousand years from now? You know, it’s as if you and I have a boatload of Confederate currency, and the war is ending. Imagine if you are an affluent southerner during the civil war and you had all this currency and you could see the war was ending. You’d be in a mad scramble to translate it into something that will outlast because that currency went to zero. And the same is true for us. We have time, we have talent, we have influence, we have resources, we have freedom. We have God’s word stuck in our heart. We’re mature in our Christianity. And not only that, we’re modeling something for our kids and grandkids. What are they seeing? Are they seeing that when grandma and grandpa got to midlife and they were secure, that they drifted into their second half and they cruised and they are RV’d around the country and they went to Bible study and they played tennis and they took care of their health and they loved their grandkids. But, they never took a risk for Jesus. We never got a sense that they knew their calling and they were living it out regardless of the risk and sacrifice that it required of them. And I think that we might miss out on the joy that comes with that second, less comfortable pathway.
Bob:
Wow. Lloyd, I tell you what, when I listened to your passion for this, it reminds me of a quote my brother said one time and he was with family life ministry and he says, “Bob, have you gotten out of your Holy huddle lately?” And I’m like, well, I’m comfortable in my Holy huddle. And when you are messing with people’s comfort, I just hope they stay with us the whole podcast.
Lloyd:
Yeah, it’s not comfortable. It’s not comfortable for me. You know, I’m sitting here on Lake Norman up North of Charlotte and I’ve got two choices today. I can go out biking, I could take the boat out. I mean, it’s a nice day here. The sun’s going to come out in a little bit. I I’m going to take my granddaughter for a an hour and a half late afternoon and I could just kind of coast along and enjoy myself and enjoy the day, or I can say, Lord, help me prepare to make an impact in this time of crisis. Help me focus on what you’ve called me to do. And you know, this happens to be a time of crisis globally. And historically, Christians have showed up at this time and made a difference in the church exploded in the darkest eras of human history. The question is, am I available to be a part of that? Yesterday, I was leading a cohort of successful CEOs in Monaco of all places. By zoom. It’s six o’clock in the morning my time. It’s noon, their time. It’s a lunch gathering now that they can’t meet in person. So, they meet on zoom. None of them are Christian. Not a single one is Christian. I’m teamed up with a guy that’s been with campus crusade for more than 40 years. He used to run all the campus ministries, Bob, in the US when you and I were in college, and he and his wife are there, in their seventies, in Monaco on purpose, reaching people of means and influence with the gospel. Can you imagine the privilege of partnering with a 72 year old guy that could be drifting along at some retirement community in South Carolina? But he’s all in in Monaco taking these people on a journey where they don’t want to hear about God, and he’s got a winsome way and he’s got the age and the patina that are required to reach a CEO in Monaco with a big boat sitting out front in the harbor. And I’ll tell you, it’s not an easy conversation. They push back on every idea that we raise up, and we just count on God, you know? And so one of the things I said to them, this last call, I said, you know, in time of crisis, where do you go back to? And I shared with them something that Doris Drucker told me. Peter Drucker was the father of modern management theory, and when he passed away at age 95, she said that the last two days of his life he spent in the fetal position repeating the 23rd Psalm in his mother tongue of German. Now, if you think about perhaps one of the wisest men, the smartest brains on our planet during his generation, when it was time, when there was nothing else left except facing his death, he turned to the 23rd Psalm. And it’s interesting. These CEOs on my call yesterday said, could you send that to me?
Bob:
Really? You mean like the 23rd Psalm?
Lloyd:
Yeah, yeah. Could you send that to me? They haven’t read it before. Now imagine, I could be sitting in Naples, Florida on a beach, you know, for a yet another day talking about politics, watching that clock run down. Or I could be engaged in an eternal conversation with CEOs who ask to hear the 23rd Psalm. So I went and found it in video form with a male voice, and I sent it to them. And who knows? But today they may be listening to, “The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want.” They have everything and they’re still deeply in want you. And I have a choice. We can either drift along or we can get clear on our calling. And there’s a French poet that said, once you know your calling, it will follow you the rest of your life, like an accusing shadow. Is there anything you know is your purpose on this planet that’s following you around like a shadow?
Bob:
So Lloyd, as I hear this, it really speaks to my heart and I know it’s speaking to our listeners hearts, too. You’re getting the end. So, where do we go from here? Can you give me some tools to help me look forward as to how I can find that calling? I immediately just think, okay, I’m going to pray to God and ask him for that calling. But I just see there’s a lot more to this, and finding that calling.
Lloyd:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s a big difference between volunteerism and knowing your calling. So one place to start that you referred to earlier is looking back over your shoulder. When were you at your best? When were you most at peace? What was the most painful experience in your life, and how has it shaped you? Tana Green got pregnant at 16 and got married and for the next four years she was beaten up. And so at 20, she broke free from being beaten up on a regular basis and she said she made a commitment to herself. She would own her own home at 26. She would own her own company by age 30, and today she’s 60 and she has 4,000 employees. And her passion is domestic violence. Out of her employees, probably there is a percentage of them that are involved in domestic violence, either propagating it or experiencing it. She’s written a book about it. She’s the chairwoman of the domestic violence center in her city. She was on Fox news yesterday morning talking about what she’s doing around supply chains and and this issue. There’s a woman who could just be drifting along with her company, letting it run. She’s got a good chief operating officer, but she’s doubling down around something that when she first realized that God could use the pain of her past to be a passion for the future, her life went from black and white to color. The second thing is to look ahead and get clear on what you want. Here’s what the Bible says, and you can look this up later, but for the time being, let this drift through your mind. In Galatians 6:4-5 The Message translation, it says, “Give careful exploration of who you are and the work you’ve been given and sink yourself into it. Don’t be impressed with yourself. Don’t compare yourself with others. Each of us must take responsibility to do the creative best we can with our own life.” So the creative best you can is not drifting into your second half with plans for travel, hobbies, where are you going to live in the summer and the winter, and how much you’re going to leave to your kids when you die. Those are important plans, but that’s not giving careful thought to who you are and the work you’ve been given. When you have freedom in your second half and kids start leaving home and you have some financial freedom and you can see the classic kind of retirement on the horizon, you have an opportunity to get clear on who you are and the work you’ve been given and sink yourself into it. It doesn’t say dabble in. It doesn’t say do enough serving the Lord just so you feel better about yourself so you have a slightly more significant life. It says, sink yourself into it. What the Lord is trying to get us to do is to lay up treasure in heaven, and take our family on a faith adventure where their hearts will be rooted in following the Lord. You know, I can afford to buy my kids the world’s best education. But imagine this, if you had to choose between giving your kids the best education or teaching them to hear the voice of God and follow, which would you choose?
Bob:
I would choose the voice of God and follow without a shadow of a doubt in my mind because I’ve seen what a college education can do in pulling them away from that. Even sending them to Christian schools can do that.
Lloyd:
Yeah, and and so it’s not so much that we don’t want to invest in our kids’ education. It’s just that you think about how much mental share of mind we put into kids’ education. We spent evenings talking about should they go to this school? Should we homeschool them? Should we do this? Should we do that? Which college should they go to? And we can pay for that. But to teach the kids how to hear the voice of God and follow, I can’t buy that. I have to model it for them. And your grandkids too. If your grandkids see grandma just drifting through life, how will they learn to hear the voice of God and follow? And our kids are 33, 32, 31, 28, and 26, and then Linley, the sweetest one of them all, is two. And she’s gonna wear me out this afternoon reading boots and boota in English, is books. Linda’s passion is Mom’s Mentoring. If you go to momsmentoring.com, you will find her tribe of young moms. And we had four close friends get divorced in one year about 12 years ago. And we were angry. And one day she came to me, I had been asking Linda, what is your calling? What’s your mission? And she was playing, you know, in the worship band at church and she was teaching Sunday School and she was doing PTA and all this other good stuff. But when our four friends got divorced, she was angry, and for the first time in her life she had a passion and she said, you know, it’s like we’re running an ambulance service at the bottom of the hill, but no one has bothered to build a guardrail at the top of the hill. I’m not doing ambulance service anymore. I am going to go to the top of the hill and work with young moms before a crisis hits to build strong marriages and healthy families. So there’s a tribe of women now all around like Norman that are young moms that are building healthy families in strong marriages because of Linda’s investment in them. And that’s a good thing. But the great thing is our kids are watching her. They came to a funeral of a lady that Linda was running with who didn’t know the Lord. She got saved on her 49th birthday, and she died in her sleep six months later. The kids had been praying for her. And so we went to Kathy’s funeral and I let Linda go to the casket first and then off to the side room. And then I went up with the three kids and I said to them, this is not a joke. This is your mom’s calling. She’s invested in this lady. You prayed for her and today she is in heaven. This is not a joke. And so today our daughter Carolyn is a missionary with CRU in France and she is quarantined in her little apartment reaching out hour by hour to students in France that think God is irrelevant. For the first time in their life they have time to sit and listen and hear it and watch a Francis Chan video and engage. It’s not an accident that all the students in France have to stay home, and there’s nothing for them to do. Carrie’s been prepared for 31 years to play this role in their life. That didn’t just happen. It was something that her mom was building into her by modeling how you hear the voice of God and follow.
Bob:
So that is our mission is helping others to find their calling. We find our own calling by helping others find their calling as well.
Lloyd:
So yeah. So Bob, if you think about for you and I to open up a conversation with our spouse about, Hey honey, we’ve got years ahead, Lord willing, and God’s blessed us. We’re not super wealthy maybe, but we’ve got some financial resources. We have freedom. We have all these talents. We’ve studied the word of God for years. We have influence. We have a voice. We have some freedom. What are we going to do? And is it converging or is it separate? Which is fine. Are there some things we’re called to do separately and some overlap? And so if you think of the model for looking at at your future, looking ahead, there’s a vision, two circles that are separate. That would be like if you and your spouse had two different callings and you know you’re on an intimate journey together, you talk a lot about it, but what you do in service is separate. Or envision two circles where they overlap a little bit in the middle. That would be in a situation where you do one thing, your spouse does other things, and there’s some things you do together. Now, envision a third scenario where the two circles completely overlap. And this would be a scenario where you’re both called to the same kind of service, but you do different things because you have different strengths. And by the way, when you think about your calling in the second half, this is not about selling your company or bailing from corporate America. We still own our retirement business. It’s what helps fund our family. But it’s not about quitting your job, going and serving at church, joining a nonprofit, although it might be. Instead, it’s about getting clear in your calling and living it out. It could easily be in your business platform. Bob, your business is a ministry and it would probably be a mistake for you to close up shop or sell your business, your practice, and go volunteer at a soup kitchen because you’re uniquely equipped to help people think through biblical financial matters in their life so that it gives them freedom, and they can honor God with their resources.
Bob:
Oh yeah, absolutely. During this, during this time right now that we’ve gone through with the Corona virus I just told my wife yesterday, I feel like, you know, a pastor all day long in speaking with my clients and encouraging them that God’s in control and he has this and keep your head up. Don’t look down, keep your head up and look to the future. And God is going to do amazing things through all this, but it’s hard for them to see. So yeah, I agree with you. Now, one of the things is that as I’m talking with Rachel about this, she’s got her vision and her significant and then I kind of have mine and she’s watching me, but she doesn’t really feel a part of that Lloyd. So that’s where I can see where you want to get your, you and your spouse on the same page moving forward with supporting one another. And Rachel definitely, she supports me wholeheartedly, but I want her to have that calling to, I want to, you know, right now her calling, she says is being the wind beneath my wings and helping me, but it’s all about me. I want it to be, you know, and we got the new grand baby and helping our daughter with the grand baby.
Lloyd:
Well, here’s one of the things that just honest, observational, though it may seem harsh, but when I first said to Linda, Hey, you know, God’s blessed our business, we have freedom, we could do whatever. Let’s go explore what he has for us to do next. And I said, you know, one of the things he may want for us to do next is to simply grow our business. We get to care for seniors in our facilities. We get to take care of lots of grandmas and grandpas. I mean, that’s a God honoring business, right? So we went on a journey to try to figure out how does God want to use us – me rather. And so I said to Linda, she could see that I was finding so much joy in what I was called to do in this halftime ministry and it fits me perfectly. I said to her honey, why don’t you write a mission statement? My mission is to be a thought leader, mobilizing high capacity business leaders to make a kingdom impact. That’s all I do every day. And it helps me say a smiling no to 90% of the things that are good but not great for me to do. And so I said to her, why don’t you write a mission statement? She said, I really don’t want a mission. I mean, it’s so confining. What’s interesting is, is when those four friends got divorced, she was angry at that, not at them, but at what happened that no one intervened to help them at the critical turning points in their marriage. She realized she was doing a lot of good things at the expense of what she was most equipped to do. She’s a teacher. It’s an Institute she runs at Mom’s Mentoring dot com. She’s equipped to serve young moms and she was doing all kinds of other things that were good but not great. One year, she had panic and anxiety and she had to go on Prozac for a year and nothing wrong with Prozac, but it was a wake up call for her that she needed help. She needed to decide what she was called to do and what she was doing that really wasn’t her calling. And so today she’s got a mission statement and it helps her focus. But what I remember her saying to me was, I just support you. You always have a big vision, and I just do small stuff and you do the big stuff and you know what, it was a cop out, actually. It was safe for her to stay in that place because if she didn’t write anything down that she felt was her purpose, she couldn’t fail at it. But when you write down something and say, I believe this is my Ephesians 2:10 calling, you know where God says you are my workmanship created in Christ Jesus, there are works prepared for you in advance for you to do. Then, if I write down this is what I feel or this is my calling, the works prepared in advance for me to do, then people around me can say, you know Lloyd, you said you were going to do this. How come you’re doing that? And I might try it. It might fail, and so you can hide out safely by just saying, well I just do whatever God has me do each day. I get up and I take care of my grand babies and I go to Bible study and I volunteer at the church, and you can quickly become sloppy busy. Sloppy busy is when you’re doing lots of good things, but you really aren’t sure what your purpose is, what your calling is.
Bob:
So I’m hearing you say something that kind of strikes me is that are we actually fearful of a mission statement? I think we are.
Lloyd:
Yeah, I think I am. Yeah, I know I am. Because you know when I share that out loud like I just did. Like how do I know it’s going to work? I don’t. Or how do I know I’m not going to just goof off or you know, I’m accountable.
Bob:
So, you have some tools to help us with all of this. What’s a tool I could give to my listeners, besides the word of God and prayer, that would help them to put all this together.
Lloyd:
Yeah, Bob. That’s why Linda and I wrote “Halftime For Couples” as an ebook, and that’s why it’s free is because then it’s viral. You can share it. I mean it’s gone all over Europe and Asia and South Africa, and it’s a 90 minute read. It allows couples to talk through what their dreams are for the next season and what they don’t want. You know, sometimes it’s helpful to start to make a stop doing list at halftime and it enables you to start to build a roadmap. If you just go to halftime.org/couples, you can download it free. You can send it to your listeners, Bob, but halftime.org/couples and just click on download and you will have a tool that’s not perfect, but it’s our best effort to help you navigate some of these big things. And the basic architecture is look back and take stock, look ahead and dream, look inside and discover who you are, what are your strengths, and then look around and see who are the stakeholders in my life that I need to get in sync with – my spouse, my kids, my friends, and then look up and really ask the Lord for wisdom as you move forward in following him. So it’s a simple, simple way to, in 90 minutes, distill the longing for more meaning and purpose in our next half into a plan.
Bob:
I started doing this last night cause I knew we were talking today and I actually took what you gave us at Kingdom Advisors and I can’t believe I haven’t done that yet, but I started it. And looking back, what went well, what did not go well? You know, what do you need to repair? And I’m just going to be transparent with everyone here. You know what? Well, I built a business and you know, I made it a success by the world’s standards. What did not go well? I was way too hard on my kids. I was way too legalistic. And what do you need to repair? I need to repair that and I’m already starting to repair that with my kids and I think it’s the grandpa and me now. But I could see that and relaxing a little bit and showing grace. I was so tightly wound when I was younger and I’m about 58. I’ll be 58 in June. And looking ahead, you know, what would you like more of? What would you like less of in this next season as you work together? And really, I’m just thinking to myself, I don’t need to be so focused on just work, and I’m so focused on that. I need to take and focus more of my time on my wife and focus more of my time on my kids because I was so focused on the business. I didn’t have time to focus enough on my kids. Now, I don’t know if anybody else can relate to this, but I know you speak with people every single day that this is their story. What are your greatest fears? Okay, my greatest is not having enough money to retire on and I’m like come on, get real Bob. You know, if I just liquidated everything, I’d have more than enough. More than enough. But you know, it’s looking at my lifestyle, but I love this lifestyle. I’m comfortable, Lloyd.
Lloyd:
Yeah. So the beauty here, Bob, is that you and I have gone from podcast to really just thinking out loud and saying, Lord, what is it that’s standing in my way of the life you most wanted for me?
Bob:
Exactly.
Lloyd:
Is it comfort. Is it fear? Is it a lack of clarity? Do I not have a process? Is it just I don’t have the courage to lean into it? I mean not trusting that you have something better for me than just holding onto this comfort.
Bob:
It takes courage, and my prayer is that all of our listeners today find that courage to reach in and do this project and don’t think of it as a project. Think of it as a life long journey of changing that second half and making it significant and looking at what you’ve learned from your past and how can you learn from your past. Because, Lloyd, I met you and we’re about the same age. You know, we got a little bit of gray in our hair.
Lloyd:
Actually no, I’ve got a little bit of brown in my hair. It’s mostly silver. I think silver is better than gray. The Word sounds better.
Bob:
I like that too. Yeah. Like it says in the scripture, searching for silve., So as we come to the end, let’s try to sum this up in a couple of minutes of what you would have us do with this. We’re going to go to the website. We’re going to download halftime for couples. What are we going to run into when we start doing this? Because it’s frightening, quite frankly.
Lloyd:
Yeah. I would say when I encounter something in my life that I know is a growth opportunity, I want to hide it. And the most important thing I can do is put it out on the table. Just come home and tell people in my family, here’s what I’ve just learned and here’s where I need to grow. If you’re sitting there thinking our kids have moved or gone off to college or gotten married, and I’m tempted to just hunker down and do my comfortable little Christian deal, take care of grand babies, and not really make eye contact with God and get my calling and be all in including the risk and sacrifice it’s going to require. I encourage you to stare that one down, put that topic on the table, talk about it, and ask your spouse, ask your kids for encouragement and help to lean into this process of confronting the lack of clarity, the comfort, the fears that you may have, and go on a journey to find out God’s call. It’s different than volunteerism. When you know you’re calling, time flies by and you’ll know it when you experience it and maybe you’re already deep into it and you can help others and encourage others on this journey. And then secondly, I would say, you know, take this tool “Halftime For Couples” and use it as a couple if you happen to be married and if not, use it individually as a guide to help you think this through. And then at the Halftime Institute, we have coaches. We have female coaches and male coaches that can help you over the phone. Even just two or three calls can help you make progress on this journey. And you know, one of the things you mentioned, Bob, that I want to end with is almost every guy that I coach through Halftime, I ask him, what do you want if life turned out perfectly? And one of the things they say is my family would be thriving. So I ask them about that. And then they very often say, well, what if you don’t feel like you did your best? What if you have some regrets about the first half that it really wasn’t as thriving as you hoped it would be?
Bob:
You’re talking to me, man.
Lloyd:
That’s almost all of us. And so here’s the thing that’s interesting. I’ve never seen a guy disappointed if he takes his kids out one by one and asks them, what has it been like for you growing up with me as your dad? Tell me everything, and it creates a blank canvas to paint a different picture together for this next season. Most of us are absolutely afraid of that, but when guys do that, they come back with tears in their eyes. They’ll often have a letter in hand and say, my son sent me this two page letter, and I can’t believe that grace my kids have extended. You start the second half in your family with a blank canvas.
Bob:
Well, I think we’ll end on that, and God’s got this y’all. God’s got it. And give it to him. I tell you, you don’t have to go through this journey alone. Lloyd is here with the Halftime Institute. I’m here. I want to help you find that life of significance because as we go into that second half, there’s so much more that God wants to do with you. We’re going to conclude on that, Lloyd. Thank you so much for being so transparent. I could just talk to you for hours about this.
Lloyd:
Well, you know what’s interesting, Bob, is that’s because this is our calling for both of us, and time flies by. I mean, it just flies by when you’re in the zone.
Bob:
It does. It does. We’re going to conclude on that. If you want to give us a call – if you want to give me a call – call us at 830-609-6986 or you can go to our website at ciswealth.com and email me from that. Just know we’re here for you. God loves you and so do we.
[CONCLUSION]
That’s all for now. We invite you to listen to all of our past episodes covering many financial topics from a Christian Perspective. To make sure you don’t miss any of Bob’s upcoming episodes you can subscribe to Christian Financial Perspectives on iTunes, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher. To learn more about integrating your faith with your finances, visit ciswealth.com or call 830-609-6986.
[DISCLOSURES]
Comments from today’s show are for informational purposes only and not to be considered investment advice or recommendations to buy or sell any company that may have been mentioned or discussed. The opinions expressed are solely those of the host, Bob Barber and his guests. Bob does not provide tax advice and encourages you to seek guidance from a tax professional. Investment advisory services offered through Christian Investment Advisors Inc. DBA Christian Financial Advisors, a registered investment advisor.
42 min
May 22, 2020 76 – Inheritolatry
Click below to listen to Episode 76 – Inheritolatry
Inheritolatry

Learn about the 4 biblical principles of inheritance.

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Bob and guest, Jim Wise, discuss the term that Jim coined called “inheritolatry”. Inheritolatry is the decision to leave an abundance of financial resources to the next generation without regard to financial responsibility, spiritual commitment, or the size of the estate. The typical American way of inheritance is dividing it equally among our heirs, but is it biblical?
The Bible has a lot to say about inheritance and it’s not always in the way WE THINK we should pass an inheritance to our heirs. Bob and Jim discuss four biblical principles of inheritance for a Christian that encourage them to align their estate plans with His wisdom and commit part of their excess wealth to completing the work of the Great Commission.

GUEST: Jim Wise, CFP®, CAP®, ChFC®, CLU®, CKA®, CWS®
HOSTED BY: Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®
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Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®

Jim Wise
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[INTRODUCTION]
Welcome to “Christian Financial Perspectives”, where you’re invited to gain insight, wisdom and knowledge about how Christians integrate their faith, life and finances with a Biblical Worldview. Here’s your host Christian Investment Advisor, Financial Planner, and Coach Bob Barber.
[EPISODE]
Bob:
Yeah, it’s great. It is beautiful. Welcome to today’s podcast where I’m coming to you from my office. I have an office out in the country on 17 acres. It looks out over the beautiful Texas Hill country, so I’m looking over it right now.
Jim:
Oh nice. That’s great.
Bob:
Yeah, it’s great. It is beautiful. We’re going to be talking about inheritolatry. Jim, did I say that right?
Jim:
You did indeed, yes.
Bob:
Man. That’s a hard word. You heard me right. It’s inheritolatry. And I first heard about this term inheritolatry a few years ago when it was a theme of a Kingdom Advisors monthly study group with Jim Wise that I’ve invited to be a guest on today’s podcast. And y’all hear me talking all the time about Kingdom Advisors and I’m a Certified Kingdom Advisor and so is Jim. So I found this inheritolatry to really be a fascinating topic on inheritance that I’ve never heard spoken of in this way. And my guest, Jim Wise, that’s going to be on with me today, he’s a senior partner and senior wealth advisor, private wealth division of Ronald Blue Trust. And y’all know that I’ve had Ron Blue also on my podcast. I had him, I think it was about a month and a half ago, is when we had Ron. He was so great. He’s always hard to hold a candle to, Jim. Ron is so good. But Jim also serves as the company’s director of ministry services and listen to all these certifications. It just goes to show how long you’ve been in the business, by the way.
Bob:
He’s been in the business 35 years. He’s a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER, a Chartered Advisor in Philanthropy, Certified Wealth Strategist® – so am I – a Certified Kingdom Advisor® – I’m one of those too – a Chartered Financial Consultant, and Chartered Life Underwriter. When do you have time, Jim, to keep up with all the continuing education for that.
Jim:
Thankfully they overlap. So one batch of continuing ed usually satisfies all of them. Otherwise there is no possible way I would want that many certifications.
Bob:
So Jim provides major donor development training for the leaders of over 1000 ministries. That’s a lot of ministries and frequently teaches for churches and faith based organizations including Kingdom Advisors, Christian Leadership Alliance, and the National Christian Foundation. So Jim, thank you for taking time out. Welcome to Christian Financial Perspectives.
Jim:
Thanks so much for inviting me. Bob, it’s really great to be with you.
Bob:
Is this a term you came up with, by the way? This inheritolatry?
Jim:
Yeah, it’s, it’s a word that I made it up because I was trying to come up with something that characterized or described what I think is becoming a, a significant issue in our culture and it simply refers to the idolatry of inheritance. So it is difficult for many of us to say, but inherit olive tree if we just think in terms of idolatry of inheritance. That’s the concept that I think is becoming a problem. And what’s interesting too is that inheritolatry is not just an issue for our generation, for the parents who are currently stewarding wealth, it’s eventually going to be transferred to our adult kids. That’s one form of inheritolatry, but it also applies to the next generation. So by way of definition, the simple way to think about it is the idolatry of inheritance, for folks that want a more detailed definition. Inheritolatry for Christian parents, I would define that as the commitment to leave significant financial resources to adult children without regard to their spiritual commitment, their financial need or responsibility, or even the size of the estate. For our adult children, inheritolatry could be defined as the unhealthy fixation on funds and property to be inherited. And it’s often characterized by a highly consumptive lifestyle, sometimes even a sense of material entitlement.
Bob:
Yeah. When I heard you the first time in the Bible study that you presented this, there were some verbal indicators that when we hear we can think of, okay, that’s inheritolatry for inheritance they’re thinking about. And as I was hearing some of those, I was thinking, man, my own kids have said some of those. It made me wonder, okay, now y’all need to be saving up for yourself. But so many of those that are going to inherit a big inheritance, they’re thinking, well I don’t need to save. I’m just going to get a lot from my parents. But so what are some of the verbal indicators that we need to be in tuned to of inheritolatry?
Jim:
Yeah, I think both for you and I and other Christians that get to counsel people in this area. We need to have our antenna up for these signs and also our clients or brothers and sisters in Christ all over the country. Cause when discussing this topic with Christians, a question that often comes up is, well, how do I tell if I’m struggling with it? Right. If I’m the parent and I’m doing my estate documents, I want to know if this is an issue for me. And they also typically want to know how do I tell if my kids are struggling. So, some of the verbal indicators are when we find ourselves saying something like this, well, I want my kids to have it easier than I did or I can’t allow my children to live below the standard of living they’ve become accustomed to. That will often happen when we send our kids out on their own instead of allowing them to struggle a little bit in the beginning and learn good financial habits and learn to provide for themselves and their families. The parents will oftentimes continue to supplement the kids’ income because we want them to maintain a certain standard of living oftentimes that they’re not able to afford themselves. Parents might make comments like my primary estate planning goal is to make sure that my kids are really well provided for. And one that you will occasionally hear when you’re having the discussion about the inheritolatry principles is especially if there is a discussion about leaving money to the kingdom and reducing the amount that goes to the kids or doing something that is unequal. “Oh, I could never do that. My children would be very upset.” Almost the sense as if it really all belongs to the kids and they’re the only ones that I have to answer to. So these are some of the types of things, verbal indicators, things that we or folks that we know might say that would give an indication that inheritolatry is a potential problem.
Bob:
Jim, I think you just about described a lot of us by the way. All of us nearly. And it’s interesting what you said in the beginning. We want our kids to have it easier than I had it, but yet hardship is what teaches us life’s lessons. I mean, I look at wisdom, it’s from my mistakes that have taught me that wisdom over time and reading God’s word, and I want my kids to be well provided for. Well, just how well do they need to be provided for is some of the things I’m thinking of.
Jim:
Amen. And we probably help them more by passing down a knowledge of God’s Word and God’s financial principles and by passing down kind of the social qualities of a solid work ethic and a sense of responsibility. Because you’re right, it is typically, it’s going through struggles financially, especially when we’re starting out and developing the financial habits that have made our generation fairly successful financially. It doesn’t make any sense for me to then rob my kids of the very valuable experiences that I’ve had and application of God’s wisdom to my own finances that has allowed us to be in a position where we’re going to be passing some wealth down. But yeah, it’s really important that if we want to help our kids, the first thing we need to do is pass down biblical wisdom or what we call spiritual capital and social capital, then they’ll be able to handle whatever financial capital we’ve passed along long later.
Bob:
I always say, if they don’t have wisdom, don’t pass the money to them, because the opposite of what will happen if they don’t have that wisdom, you just pass a bunch of money, it’s going to make it worse, which I guess kind of takes us into, you had these practical indicators of inheritolatry that I noticed you had a list and I’d looked at that and I said, man, that speaks right into what I see and hear all the time. So, share some of those practical indicators of inheritolatry that we need to be looking for.
Jim:
Yeah. Well, probably the first and most common is when our estate plan passes down an equal share of the estate to our adult children with a history of poor financial decisions, maybe irresponsible spending patterns, even in some cases addictive or destructive behavioral patterns. I’ve seen estrangement from the parents, a sense of material entitlement. Sometimes, unfortunately, this grieves our hearts, but sometimes our adult kids have completely abandoned or rejected the Christian faith. Living a consumptive lifestyle, not generous, just all of the things that we’ve tried to model and pass down to the kids. If Laurie and I have a plan in place that would contemplate passing down an equal share to each of the kids, even knowing that maybe one of the kids or a couple of them have this type of a history, that’s probably a sign that we’re struggling with inheritolatry. And then if at a basic level, if our wealth transfer plan, if our estate plan, was not developed using the same biblical stewardship and generosity principles that we’ve been trying to apply to our day to day finances. In other words, most Christians have some understanding of biblical stewardship and really seek to apply biblical truth to the day to day management of our finances. But oftentimes, when it comes to the estate planning process, there is no looking to biblical truth or biblical wisdom. And a lot of times Christians’ estate plan will not look anything like the decisions they’re making day to day. So if the plan was developed without consulting biblical stewardship principles, even though we tried to do that in day to day life, that’s a sign of inheritolatry. And probably the most painful one, I would say that I’ve observed, is when we as parents are far more concerned about justifying our wealth transfer decision to the kids than we are giving an account to the Lord whose money it is. That’s probably a practical sign of inheritolatry.
Bob:
Well, those conversations are just not talked about in an estate planning attorney’s office – what you’re mentioning.
Jim:
Yeah, I think you’re right. And one reason I should think is because this is not an easy discussion. I mean, what, what you and I get to do for a living and the folks that we get to serve, in a sense, we’ve been invited into this type of a discussion. Money is a very intimate thing. It’s an intimate part of people’s lives, and we get to have conversations with folks about money that they may not be even able to talk about with anybody else. But a lot of times Christian financial professionals, because this can be a difficult discussion, instead of loving the folks we get to serve enough to walk through it with them, a lot of times we just kind of take the easy path out and not bring it up at all. And honestly, that’s another evidence of inheritolatry for our generation as parents. As soon as we start thinking about it and as soon as you start walking through the biblical principles, some of the things are really challenging. They’re really difficult to kind of work through in our own family. And I’m afraid the default has become, rather than have this difficult discussion or take this difficult situation with one of my kids to the Lord in prayer, I’ll just leave it alone. The estate attorney doesn’t bring it up. I’ll just divide it equally and kind of let them worry about it. But this is a responsibility we have before the Lord because it is not our money that we’re making decisions with. It’s his.
Bob:
Yeah. Psalms 24:1 is, “The earth is the Lord’s and everything in it.” And if we really believe that, and I know that the Bible speaks to us on every issue, including inheritance. When, we look at what the Bible says about inheritance, it’s not always in the way that we think we should pass an inheritance on to our heirs. I know that you’ve come up with four biblical principles of inheritance for a Christian. It’s not the way we think. So, with these four principles, before we dive into them, maybe you could give us a quick overview of the process you went through to develop this biblical perspective on inheritance and then let’s start sharing those four principles you identified in the Bible.
Jim:
Yeah, so the starting point for me, I knew that the Bible addressed the issue and I tried to find a Christian book or a set of Christian books or a Bible study on this topic that had basically gone through the entirety of scripture and pulled out the principles directly from God’s Word. Being unable to find something like that I basically just started in my own daily devotions. I spent, I think it was a couple of months by the time I finished it, but I went through the entire Bible. I just did a word search using the word “inherit” and “inheritance”. And I created this word document and just pasted it over there – every single verse in the Bible that talked about inheritance. Then after I had pages and pages and pages of verses, then I started going through and trying to kind of characterize or categorize them. The first thing that was obvious, probably not surprisingly, verses throughout scripture on inheritance, they divide pretty neatly into two specific categories. Most of the New Testament passages referring to inheritance or not talking about finances but rather to our inheritance in Christ, which is a glorious topic to study and to discuss. But if we want to have a discussion about how we should process our own wealth transfer process looking to the Old Testament, the majority of passages in the Old Testament deal specifically with money and possessions. They’re tied, for the most part, to the land inheritance that God provided to his people, Israel. So as I studied these particular passages, in other words, I separated out all of the passages that talk specifically about the type of inheritance that we are going to leave. The wealth that we accumulate money and possessions and property. As I went through all of those verses, that’s where four specific principles emerged just from observing how God handled Israel’s inheritance – principles that I believe are really helpful for Christians in every generation to make our own estate planning decisions. So the four principles, I’m sure we’ll go through these individually, but the four to summarize were inequality is permitted, requests are acceptable, limitations are prudent, and responsibility is required.
Bob:
So how many passages in God’s word speak about inheritance or inherit, as you put that word in, cause you said you put in inherit and then I guess you that took it to inheritance, but I’m just curious, how many passages did you end up looking at?
Jim:
That is a great question. I don’t remember what the total count was, but I do know that every single verse in the Bible that has either word in it ended up on the initial document. I wanted to make sure that I didn’t overlook anything, and that the principles that I derived came out of God’s Word as opposed to me bringing my own kind of thoughts or expectations to it.
Bob:
So, this principle number one is really interesting because this is one I’d never heard until I heard you the first time, and that inequality is permitted and that just really flies in the face nearly of what we would think. You know the old saying “that’s not fair”.
Jim:
That’s right.
Bob:
I’ve never heard that, but I know you’ve got biblical examples of this principle and how Christians today could apply it to their estate planning process. So, what do you mean by inequality is permitted when it comes to this subject?
Jim:
Boy, I think that this principal is helpful in that, as you pointed out, the default setting for inheritance in our current culture, is divide everything equally between all the kids without regard to financial need, how responsible they are with money, whether a large inheritance might actually have adverse consequences. In other words, it’s not fair. That’s kind of the American way or that’s become the mantra in estate planning. I can’t do anything other than that. And what’s interesting is when you look into God’s Word, you see something that’s really quite the opposite of that. From a biblical perspective, there were instances in which God not only allowed for unequal inheritance, but he actually commanded it. I love the way that Ron Blue puts it when he says “love your kids equally by treating them uniquely”. I’m not sure where the “it has to be equal in order to be fair” idea came from, but it definitely was not the Bible. So a couple of examples that are probably going to be familiar with most of the folks that are listening in. But if you think back in the Old Testament, which person in the family got a larger share of the inheritance than anyone else? The double portion was given to the oldest son. Now I’m not advocating for the oldest son getting a double portion. I probably would if I was the oldest son in my family. And Deuteronomy chapter 21, there’s the reference to the older son getting the double portion. We don’t know why that was, necessarily. What’s interesting is Israel had perfected the art of grumbling, but we never saw them grumble or complain about the double portion. God had instructed them that that’s how inheritance was to be done. It’s inherently unfair to the way that we think in our Western culture today. But that was just one example of God actually instructing that inheritance was to be done unequally. One that is directly relevant to our families today in Numbers chapter 26 when the land was actually starting to be allocated, the allocation was based on the size of the family. So it literally says to a larger family, give a larger portion and to a smaller family, give a smaller portion. That’s brilliant. We might even view that as common sense, and yet it’s inherently unequal. But when you step back and think about it, it makes perfect sense that a larger family might have greater financial needs than a smaller family. And the other one, again, this would not be a popular discussion in most American churches, but who was allowed to get an inheritance at all? In Old Testament Israel, the sons got the inheritance and the daughters did not. We think we understand why that was because it was expected the daughters would marry into families and their husbands would have an inheritance. Regardless, the point here is not to say we should be taking those principles for the governance of Israel in that day and applying double portion with the sons or daughters today. The whole point is to say there is never a time in scripture where we’re explicitly told that inheritance is to be done equally. But we’ve got three examples of where it was commanded to be done in a way that is unequal that most American Christians would consider unfair. The whole point is to say if we consider doing something other than every kid gets exactly the same amount, we’re on solid biblical ground. For example, let’s say one of my adult daughters is a highly successful surgeon, married to a highly successful surgeon, and they’ve chosen to remain childless. And then let’s say that my son is a teacher at a Christian school, has a fairly limited upside in terms of his income, is married to a stay at home mom, and they have six kids, one of which has special needs. Is it fair to say that these are two dramatically different sets of circumstances with entirely different financial needs? And I guess, is it not reasonable to take these different circumstances into account in the estate planning process?
Bob:
It absolutely is. I was going to give that same exact example. So keep going because yeah, in this case you look at the one with the six children teaching at the Christian school or maybe they’re a missionary, helping them more. Yeah.
Jim:
Yeah. It makes perfect sense. If we don’t even allow that to enter into the discussion because, in our American culture way of thinking, it wouldn’t be fair. We’re actually going against I think biblical wisdom and biblical instruction. It just makes sense that we ought to look at the situations, and it works the same way with some kids are really good at managing money. They’ve picked up what we’ve tried to teach them. They’re incredibly generous, and another of our kids might live a highly consumptive lifestyle, always be coming to us to bail them out of financial trouble. It’s a painful reality, but many of us have experienced that with our adult kids, and we might make a decision now, like in other words, I’ve seen many cases where Christians who had a child, who was just constantly in trouble financially because of overspending or just always borrowing and borrowing, not being able to pay it back. And eventually the parents might say, we’re enabling you. We’re not going to bail you out anymore. But that same set of parents in their estate documents are leaving that child the exact same portion of the estate at the exact same time as the other kids. And again, the point is not to say here’s what you ought to do. The point is to say you should feel completely free before God to say if it is wise and prudent to do something other than equal division, we’re on solid biblical ground because God did not ever instruct that it had to be divided equally between each of the adult children.
Bob:
It reminds me, as you were talking about this, we did a podcast about a year ago called “Sudden Wealth Syndrome”, and when they inherit that huge amount of wealth and if they don’t know how to handle a little, how are they going to handle more? Like the parable of the talents. And I can see in a discussion of these four principles, you could have hours and hours of discussion just on this first principle of “inequality is permitted”. Do you have many more to say about that before we go to that second principle?
Jim:
Nope. Think we’re ready to move on.
Bob:
Okay. So that second principle is “requests are acceptable”. Well, again, I’ve never thought about that. See, when I make these podcasts, I’m going, hey, I’m learning a lot from this myself. So, is this where you actually ask your kids for requests or what do you mean by requests are acceptable?
Jim:
Yeah. This one is interesting in that I’ve found that folks in our generation, Christian parents, will often actually get frustrated or upset with the adult kids if the kids ever bring up the estate plan, if they ever talk about their desire to inherit a particular piece of property. But reality is there are probably at least a couple items in every one of our estates that they might have really strong sentimental value to one of the kids, but no value at all to the others, or might have a piece of property that one of the adult kids is using and they really feel an attachment to and it’s part of the family legacy, but none of the other kids are interested in it at all. I’ve seen cases where there are items in the parents’ estate that none of the kids have any interest in. Yet, the parents hang on to them until they die so they can pass them down to the kids because they never asked the kids, do you have any interest in having this thing? It would be a blessing to the kids to simply dispose of those types of assets prior to death rather than passing them down and leaving the kids to deal with it. But a couple of biblical examples of inheritance requests being made – the first one that I came across was the trans Jordan tribes in Numbers chapter 32, but most of our listeners, I’m guessing, are very familiar with this passage, but they are getting ready to enter into the Promised Land and the boundaries of the Promised Land had already been kind of set apart for them. So, they knew what it was. But the trans Jordan tribes, two and a half tribes on the East side of the Jordan River, while they were camped there, they noticed that boy, the way that we live – our flocks and herds – this land is perfect for us. So, they had to go to the leaders and say, and I know that our Promised Land is supposed to be on the other side of the Jordan. We’re going to come in and fight and help take all that land. But if it’s all the same to you, when it’s done and we’re dividing up the property, we would sure love to have our inheritance over here. And Moses actually granted that request. He talked to God. God said, sure, that would be okay. So, a specific request was made that was particularly suitable for those two and a half tribes because of the way that they made their living. Another one of my favorites was Caleb’s land. When the land was being divided up, this comes up in Joshua chapter 14. He actually makes a reference back to something we see in Deuteronomy when the spies went into the land, and only Joshua and Caleb came back with a good report. But anyway, the land’s being divvied up. It’s being handed out. Caleb is presumably standing in line waiting for his, and pieces of land are gone. And he had his eye on a particular piece of land. So, he comes up to Joshua and he says, look, you were standing next to me when Moses made this promise because we gave a good report. He said, “This land that your feet are standing on is going to be your inheritance.” I’d sure like to have that piece of land. Caleb said, I’m still strong. I’ll go in, I’ll fight and I’ll take the land, but I want this particular piece. And that request was granted. So, requests are acceptable. It makes a lot of sense to have this discussion with the kids while we’re still alive ,and we can adjust our wills accordingly if needed. It’ll certainly simplify the estate administration process for the kids after we’re gone.
Bob:
All those examples. I’m reading the one year chronological Bible right now. Our heart church is doing that and every one of those I was like, yeah, just read that.
Jim:
Oh, that’s great.
Bob:
Yeah. So, the third principle is “limitations are prudent”. Now, I think you spoke a little bit about this, but you know from a biblical example, I think of the parable of the talents and if you’ve done a good job with a little, you could give more. Is that what you mean? Or what do you mean by that? Limitations are prudent and what are some biblical examples of that?
Jim:
Yeah, and I’d have to say, Bob, this is probably where the estate planning discussion often gets derailed because talking to our kids about who wants this piece of jewelry and who wants the china and is anybody interested in the cabin we have in the woods? That’s a much easier discussion than starting to talk about limiting inheritance. But basically, if we want to faithfully steward the resources God has entrusted to us, there may be instances where placing prudent limitations on inheritance is the wisest thing to do. I was actually well into this Bible study when this principle finally jumped out at me, and then I couldn’t believe I’d almost overlooked it because if you think about the Promised Land in general, God’s beloved nation, Israel, God’s dear possession, he carved out this land he had promised them much earlier that it was going to be theirs. The first thing God did when providing an inheritance for Israel was to establish clearly defined borders or limitations on the land despite the fact that God owns everything. I mean, when you step back and think about that as an inheritance principle – you referred to Psalm 24:1 before, and Psalm 50, as well, talks about the same thing. There are a lot of Bible verses that make clear to us that God owns everything. Every animal in the forest is mine. The cattle on a thousand hills, the earth is the Lord’s everything in it. God had at his disposal all of the land in all of the world. He could have just said, it’s yours. Take over the world.
Bob:
Yeah. The whole thing. Yeah, makes sense.
Jim:
And if you look on a map at the little sliver that is the Promise Land. If you’re looking at it on a map and you start to zoom out on the map, by time you’re looking at kind of that Asia and Europe area, I mean, it’s so small, you can barely even see it.
Jim:
Now, if God’s first decision was to look at all that he had to pass down and to limit the amount that he gave to Israel, then it seems like we might be instructed by the fact that God’s first decision about inheritance was to bring some limitations. I mean, the way that we typically think about it, it’s like, well, if I die with this largest estate, these were all excess resources, then all of that, everything we have, is going to get passed down. But that’s not the way that God did it. He passed down a limited amount to his beloved nation, Israel. And when you look at this in Joshua 13 to 19 where the land is actually being divided up and handed out to the different tribes, it was the same way for every family, big families, bigger piece, small family, smaller piece. But each tribe and clan received a limited, clearly defined piece of the land. So one of the most common ways that Christians will usually place limitations on inheritance is leaving some portion of the estate to God’s work. For example, our church or other faith-based ministries we support. In fact, the first question often asked in the estate planning process is how much to the kids and how much to the kingdom? But if we are going to pass down 100% of our estate to the kids, I know for me and Laurie, we feel like we better be absolutely certain that that is the reason God entrusted to us these excess resources, because our generation is holding, stewarding, so much excess wealth and we have to ask ourselves the question, “If God gave us more than we are ever going to need or use or spend or give away in this lifetime,” and that’s the definition of inheritance, right? Inherited resources are simply what was left over at death, meaning God entrusted them to us knowing we were not going to need them or use them. Was God’s intention for all of the excess to automatically be passed down to the next generation or was it possible that he had intended that some portion of that, and for some families they conclude that the majority of it, was intended to be pumped into the kingdom to complete the work of the great commission.
Bob:
I mean, I know that each one of these principles is going to speak to everyone differently, but to me this is one of the most powerful ones. And I really had no idea where you were going to go with this, but it makes so much sense now. And like you said, God could have given the entire world to the Israelites, but he gave them Israel and you’re right. When you pull back out, that’s just a little piece. It is so small, you can hardly see it when you look at it from the satellite. Man, that is powerful. Well, we got another principle here, and it’s the last of these four principles, which is “responsibility is required”. I can’t wait to hear some biblical examples on this.
Jim:
Of the four principles, this is by far the most difficult, oftentimes, for folks to work through themselves. And then if they make decisions that might be difficult decisions for any of the kids, to talk through it with the kids. But in the Bible, financial responsibility, what you and I would call faithful stewardship, is a requirement for being entrusted with greater resources and responsibility. And the opposite is also true, the lack of financial responsibility. In other words, being the unfaithful steward of God’s resources typically results in negative financial consequences. So let’s think about just 2 well known Bible examples. One was Israel inheriting the land and what we learned, in two places in particular, Leviticus 18 and Joshua 23, is a very strong warning, but basically what they were told is unrighteous, disobedient behavior equals lose inheritance. In both cases, God instructed Israel to say, it is your land. I’m giving you the land. You’re going to go in and you’re going to take it, but I’ve already given it to you. But when you enter the land, do not start repeating the detestable, sinful practices of the nations that were in there before you. That’s the reason I’m driving them out, and it’s the reason I’m giving it to you. And then a harsh warning where God says, if you do, if you go into the land and you start prostituting yourselves and you start picking up the same behaviors that they did, I will take you out of the land. In other words, you’re going to lose your inheritance. And if you carry that concept over into the New Testament, probably more familiar to all of us – you had pointed out the parable of the talents and also the parable of the 10 minus, which is very similar – but what happened to the unfaithful servant? It wasn’t just that the master said, oh man, I’m really sorry. You missed the blessing. I really wanted you to have the blessing of being faithful. It was, I mean, in the parable of the talents…
Bob:
He threw him out.
Jim:
Yeah, he threw him out, right, where there’s weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Bob:
Exactly.
Jim:
If you look at Jesus’ teaching and instruction throughout all four gospels, his harshest language was usually reserved for the Pharisees. But when you read the parable of the talents, you will not find a sterner warning generally for God’s people. I mean, this was very, very stern language that Jesus used, which seems to mean it’s a big deal. And again, if it was my money, if Lori and I owned anything, we’d be free to do what we want with it. But it’s not. The whole point of the parable of the talents is it’s not our money, and we’re accountable to somebody for what we do with it. So I need to say here because this is an incredibly difficult discussion. Any of us who are parents and maybe have two or three adult kids or more, many of us have seen a child go astray or a child that just makes a series of really, really poor financial decisions. I know this is difficult. And again, this is not trying to be prescriptive. Every one of us as followers of Christ and stewards of God’s money, we have to apply God’s wisdom to our own individual circumstances. But when you think about it from a biblical perspective, responsibility is required. In order to entrust a steward with additional resources to manage, that steward has to be demonstrating financial responsibility and faithful biblical stewardship in order to be entrusted with more. And it kind of scares me to think about if I have a child that I know is going to blow the money or worse. I mean if I’ve got a child who’s been struggling with addiction of some sort where money can actually be a danger, and then I make the decision, to drop a bunch of money on that particular child who has been irresponsible with money, with God’s money, it all belongs to him. That is not a loving thing to do and it’s not, I don’t think, a biblically obedient thing to do. So the point here, again, it’s not to be prescriptive. We have to look at our own families, our own situations. But the point is we need to take that into consideration when we’re deciding how much to leave each child and how and when they are to receive whatever portion we decide to leave to them. The point of identifying the biblical principles to consider in this wealth transfer process is to give us a roadmap for making the right decisions. That’s really the purpose of the four principles. Each of us now has a roadmap to walk through so that we can apply biblical wisdom and ask ourselves, based on what we know about our families and our circumstances – our adult children, how would God have us apply this biblical wisdom to our own estate planning process?
Bob:
Yeah. What he’s speaking of is the parable of the talents is over in Matthew 25:14-30. It’s a pretty long passage. I mean, there’s a lot of scriptures there, so I invite you to go read that. And another one I’m always talking about is in Luke 16 that he who is faithful in little things is faithful also in much. I would encourage you to go after the podcast today to look at those two passages in Matthew 25 and in Luke 16. I’ve talked to folks about a pre inheritance experienced, Jim, where they give some of their children some money now and go back three months and six months later and see how they did with that and what did they do with it. I just think that kind of goes into that responsibility of showing if you’re responsible with a little, you can be responsible with more.
Jim:
I’m glad you brought that up, Bob, because sometimes what we can do with our adult kids is, almost in a sense, write them off. So we kind of think, well, they were irresponsible in their twenties. They’re never going to figure it out. I tried to teach them. I tried to instruct them. And sometimes, we simply have not provided biblical instruction along the way. Number one, there can always still be a time where they can all of a sudden figure it out. Usually that’s not going to happen by us continually bailing them out. But we can continue trying to provide biblical instruction. Cause ideally, we want each of our kids to be a faithful steward so that they can receive a blessing of some level of inheritance. So, we should never write the kids off as if they’re never going to learn or they’re never going to figure it out. And we need to be committed to discipling our kids in this area as much as we can for their own good, for their own protection. Helping them understand what biblical truth looks like with regard to managing money. And I love your idea. It makes a lot of sense to kind of, in a sense, test the kids, but be able to observe where are they strong in their financial decision making and where may be some additional help needed. Because if they don’t manage well the smaller amounts as you said, it’s going to be a very hard decision for us to entrust them a much larger amount when we pass away.
Bob:
As I’ve been hearing all this, there’s so much here and where would a person or a couple go from here after hearing all about this and inheritolatry? I’m just trying to get that one right – inheritolatry. You know, we’ve heard a lot about this today and it seems like most attorneys that they never talk about these principles, they just focus on those documents, those estate planning documents. I know that Kingdom Advisors has given me a lot of that I can pass on. Is that where they start with some of those resources and you have some resources, I know, that we can share?
Jim:
Yeah, I think the a lot of the work that I’ve done in speaking or teaching on this topic has been directed to the advisor community – estate attorneys, CPA’s, financial advisors, like you and I – we’re often the ones that are engaged in the process with folks when they’re trying to make these decisions. For example, your listeners, folks that follow your podcast, they already know you. They’re familiar with you, and you’re a trained Kingdom Advisor. You understand the inheritolatry principles and how to apply them. So, the starting point for a Christian who really needs to look at updating their estate plan, or just kind of walk through this process, view their current estate plan through the lens of this biblical wisdom, and they need help doing it. For your listeners, obviously you’re the first person that they ought to go to, and for folks that live in other cities and that really prefer to have somebody local, go to the Kingdom Advisor website and see if you can’t find a Certified Kingdom Advisor in your own area. All Kingdom Advisors have access to this training and this information, so that’s a good place to start. And then obviously, the reason I decided to write the book on this topic was that I couldn’t find any resources out there in the marketplace that had gone through this specific process of just going through the entirety of God’s Word and saying what’s everything that God says on the topic and then distilling it down to a handful of actionable principles that we can use.
Bob:
Tell us the name of that book again. What’s it called?
Jim:
It’s called “Inheritolatry: The Final Obstacle to Completing the Great Commission”, and it’s available through either Xulon Press directly or any of the major online distributors, book distributors carry it or Christian bookstores. But the reason for the second half of the title, the final obstacle to completing the great commission and that was just based on research I’ve done that showed that this generation of God’s people, just in the American church, is stewarding wealth that is well in excess of what it will take to complete the work of the great commission, which is a work that all Christians agree that’s what God has called us to. So, I’ve been kind of struggling with this burden for the last several years since I started doing the research that if God has entrusted our generation in the American church with so much more money than we’re ever going to need or use in this lifetime, a tremendous amount of money is going to be passed to somebody at some point. It’s hard for me to imagine, knowing that we all as Christians agree that the great commission is the work that we are called to, that it might not be God’s intention, that some piece of these vast excess resources were given to us specifically so that we could pump them into the kingdom and expand the reach of the gospel, make God’s name and fame known throughout the rest of the world in all the places that have not yet been reached.
Bob:
And I mean, we’re probably talking literally trillions of dollars.
Jim:
Amen. Yeah. Trillions as far as what will be passed down, and well under a hundred billion, by my account, from the research I’ve done as far as what will be needed, to reach all of the remaining unreached, unengaged people groups and make disciples in all of those areas. So, it’s pretty exciting for folks in our industry. They get to council God’s people, especially work with God’s people who are generous and who are investing actively in the work of the great commission and seeing it accomplished. It’s wonderful to contemplate the opportunity we have in our generation to fund seeing that work completed.
Bob:
So if Christians just were to tithe even just 10% of the trillions that’s going to be passed down to the next generation, there’s enough money there?
Jim:
Yes. According to the research I did there, that probably would be five times more than is needed to finish the work of the great commission. Now, the great commission is make disciples and not converts. So my calculations were based not only on getting the gospel to people, but having disciple making presences and having God’s word translated into the heart language of each individual people group. And still, the largest number I could come up with to finish that work was $63 billion. And that’s in comparison with roughly 5 trillion that’s currently being stewarded by God’s most faithful. I mean, faithful followers of Christ who believe it’s God’s money who believe in finishing the great commission. So he has entrusted to us significantly more than is going to be needed to finish the work that we all agree he has called us to do.
Bob:
Well, I think that’s a good one to end this podcast on is look at your estate plan. To my listeners, I’m saying look at it and if you don’t have anything in there for your church and for different ministries, I urge you to go to God’s Word, be in prayer about leaving 10, 15, 20, 25% to the kingdom. Our children know that that’s what Rachael and I are doing, and you know what? They’re fine with it, and we’ve told them so. You’d be surprised that your kids would be very happy to hear that, especially if they love the Lord. Boy, Jim, this has been fun. Thank you for taking time out of your day to tell us about inheritolatry. So, someone can just go on line and put in that inherit like dash O-L-A-T-R-Y and they’ll be able to find your book.
Jim:
That is correct. Yeah, it’ll come up right away.
Bob:
All right. You always know that you can call me if you want information on this. If you’re like, right now I’m driving around and I’m not going to get on the internet, but you can call me and I’ll get you this book called (830) 609-6986 if you’re listening to this during the day or go to our website ciswealth.com and email us at [email protected], and we’ll get you out one of these. We’re here to help you honor God with your estate plan and how you’re going to pass the assets that he’s entrusted with you to those next generations. That’s all for today. Thank you for listening.
Jim:
Amen. Thanks Bob.
[CONCLUSION]
That’s all for now. We invite you to listen to all of our past episodes covering many financial topics from a Christian Perspective. To make sure you don’t miss any of Bob’s upcoming episodes you can subscribe to Christian Financial Perspectives on iTunes, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher. To learn more about integrating your faith with your finances, visit ciswealth.com or call 830-609-6986.
[DISCLOSURES]
Comments from today’s show are for informational purposes only and not to be considered investment advice or recommendations to buy or sell any company that may have been mentioned or discussed. The opinions expressed are solely those of the host, Bob Barber and his guests. Bob does not provide tax advice and encourages you to seek guidance from a tax professional. Investment advisory services offered through Christian Investment Advisors Inc. DBA Christian Financial Advisors, a registered investment advisor.
50 min
May 08, 2020 75 – The Question of Ownership
Click below to listen to Episode 75 – The Question of Ownership: The Case for Investing in God-Honoring Companies
The Question of Ownership: The Case for Investing in God-Honoring Companies

Learn about “Investing that makes the world rejoice!®“

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You have heard us talk many times before about biblically responsible investing. Essentially, this is lining up your investment portfolio with God honoring companies by buying Mutual Funds, ETF’s, stocks and bonds of companies and entities that are making a positive impact on our society while avoiding the negative ones. These investment principles are what Christian Financial Advisors was founded upon, and we continually strive to offer the highest quality investment portfolios that also align with one’s Christian values.
One of the leading mutual fund companies when it comes to God honoring investments is Eventide Asset Management, LLC whose philosophy is “Investing that makes the world rejoice®”. Speaking across from Bob in this episode is Jason Myhre, the Director of Advocacy at Eventide. Jason delves into the history of Eventide and the positive impact that investing with your values can have on our world.

GUESTS: Jason Myrhe of Eventide Investment Management
HOSTED BY: Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®
Mentioned In This Episode

Christian Financial Advisors
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Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®

Jason Myhre
Jason Myhre - Eventide About Us

Eventide Asset Management, LLC
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[INTRODUCTION]
Welcome to “Christian Financial Perspectives”, where you’re invited to gain insight, wisdom and knowledge about how Christians integrate their faith, life and finances with a Biblical Worldview. Here’s your host Christian Investment Advisor, Financial Planner, and Coach Bob Barber.
[EPISODE]
Bob:
Well welcome to today’s podcast. I am excited to have a good Christian brother on with me, Jason Meyer from Eventide Asset Management. We’re going to be talking about a question of ownership today and what that means. You’ve heard me, over the years, speak about biblically responsible investing. Some people today call it faith based investing. I tell you, it’s been called a lot of different names. Everybody’s trying to figure out what do I call this, but whatever you call it, it’s about honoring God with what you have. Jason is the director of advocacy and managing partner with Eventide Asset Management and he serves as the director of advocacy at Eventide. I love this saying for Eventide, “Investing that makes the world rejoice.” And they have this business 360 investment philosophy to investors, businesses, and popular audiences that I hope Jason is going to tell us about a little bit today. And so Jason, welcome to Christian Financial Perspectives.
Jason:
It’s so good to be here. Thanks for having me.
Bob:
So Jason, I forgot to ask before we got on, where is your office? Are you up there in Boston? Where are you located?
Jason:
We’re headquartered in Boston, Massachusetts. I’m one of the few remote workers. I’ve been around since the get go, and they’ve just gotten used to me working remotely before we even had an office. So, I’m calling you today from Louisville, Kentucky where I live.
Bob:
Oh man, that’s gotta be beautiful where you live.
Jason:
It is really nice today. Yeah.
Bob:
So, you’ve been with Eventide Asset Management, I heard you say, since the get go. I mean, was that from the very beginning? How long have you been there?
Jason:
So the way I came to Eventide, I was actually a student in a graduate program at Harvard University. And shortly after I moved into the dormitory there, I met someone on my dorm floor who was a Christian. And after the shock of that dissipated, I was like, Hey, where do you go to church? And so he said, yeah, you should come with me. But then he warned me that it was it was not your typical church. He said it was a small house church that’s meeting in somebody’s apartment just off campus. And I said, that’s no big deal. I’ve been to lots of different churches. And so I went along with him and when I got there the person who was sharing the message from scripture that day was actually Finny Kurruvilla, who’s our chief investment officer. And I met Robin John, who’s our CEO and his brother BJ, who served in compliance with us for a number of years and others who were involved in Eventide. And so as I started to go to this church, I learned that Finny and Robin had started to meet together and to have discussions about starting a company together. And so I asked if I could join in on those conversations, and over time that eventually turned into conversations about an investment company. And lo and behold, Eventide was born.
Bob:
Wow. So, how many years ago was that? That was when you were in college then?
Jason:
Yeah. So I’m 38. It was my second grad program. It was back in 2006 when I first started attending. And the formative conversations around starting this investment company began in 2007.
Bob:
So y’all got some deep roots when I think about that. You’re in business with your college buddies.
Jason:
I actually didn’t finish that program. And the joke around the Eventide office is that every good startup needs a Harvard dropout. And so that’s why they brought me on.
Bob:
Well, Hey, I gotta admit Jason, I don’t think I would make it at Harvard. They’re way over my head. I remember when I went up there one time to Boston, and it was for a business meeting. We stayed in the Four Seasons across the street from the campus, and I wanted to go out and walk around. And so I went out and walked around and you know, me, I’m just an old South Texas country boy, Mr. Friendly. And I would just go on by people saying, howdy, how y’all doing? Good to see ya. And they were looking at me like, who are you? So today, we’re going to talk about investing where people can make a difference in our society by mutual funds and ETFs and stocks and bonds of companies that they buy and actually have a positive impact on our society. Some people they hear this for the first time going, I never even thought about that. I started this type of investing, like I mentioned earlier, about 25 years ago or even longer. And in the beginning we called it morally responsible investing. Later, it was changed to biblically responsible investing. Today, it’s still called that, but I’ve heard it referred to as faith based investing. But it’s all the same thing. And I heard recently when Finny spoke at the Kingdom Advisors conference in an interview, and I didn’t get to go to that. I was right next door in a session next door to that. This was back in February and a lot of y’all heard me talk about this on the podcast, but I want to set this up today for this type of investing. And there was this case called “High Class New York” that set the stage and for talking about biblically responsible investing and the terms of ownership for investors or companies that we need to be concerned about what we’re investing in. So, can you tell us about that and how this could play in? This is an example of, “Hey, it’s important how we invest.”
Jason:
Yeah, I love this example because I think that it allows us to see investing in its true light and to really get a good sense of what we’re involved in when we invest. So, this story is about a company called High Class New York that operated out of Brooklyn, New York a number of years ago. And the company held itself as a companion service or an escort service. So, this is a company that you would call if you wanted to hire a model in accompanying you to celebrate some special occasion. Well, as you can probably guess, this was actually just a front for actually a prostitution ring, and the local law enforcement authorities eventually got onto this and they busted High Class New York in the summer of 2011. It hit all of the major media outlets. You can still find articles about this, for example, in the New York Times, and 17 people were indicted in this bust. And so what’s interesting, what caught our attention, when reading these articles is the roles of these 17 people in the business. So, four of them were the owners of the business. It was the owner and his wife and their two sons. And then a number of the other people were all of the managers and supervisors of High Class New York. So, they ran the business day to day. And so they were indicted as well. And that makes sense. But we noticed that there were two people that their roles in the business were unexplained. As we read further, what we discovered is that two of the 17 people that were indicted were actually not involved in the day to day operations of the business. They were not the ones who hatched this whole scheme to start this prostitution business. They were actually just investors. So, the two men were a person named Efim Gorelik and another named Yakov Maystrovich who each invested $700,000 of their own money to fund the business, and they were being repaid with interest on the business and they were indicted right alongside the owners and operators of the business. And so this raises an interesting philosophical and ethical question, which is this – was it legitimate for the government to indict them? And if we think about this example at least in the eyes of the courts, they were legally responsible. But we could ask the question about moral responsibility, ethical responsibility, and this can help us understand better our more ordinary investments in the stock market. Things like mutual funds and exchange traded funds. When we become investors in companies through equity, through stocks, we are getting the rights to receive profits and growth. But as we highlight in this High Class New York example, we’re also taking on a level of ethical responsibility for whatever it is that that company is doing in the world. And in this case it can be for harm, but I also believe that it can be for tremendous good. And hopefully, we get to talk about some of those examples.
Bob:
Jason, you think about this and I’m thinking about how do I come back on that one and thinking what I’m going to respond. Because everyone I think would agree that yes, the people that invested in that High Class New York were just as guilty as everyone else. I mean, there’s no question, but when it comes to what we own in stocks or bonds or mutual funds or ETFs, hardly anyone ever thinks of it that way.
Jason:
Yup, exactly.
Bob:
And it’s really interesting. I’ve had a lot of people tell me say, well, okay Bob, where am I going to shop? You know, what about you? Do you say you won’t invest in a certain company, but yet you use their phone? Or you’re using their cell phone service or you’re using that dish company or whatever. So, there’s a difference, I see, between being a consumer and an owner, and someone might say, I don’t own any shares of a certain company that promotes, say, adult entertainment. But when you shop at a local convenience store that sales pornography, are you promoting it? You have some good philosophy about this and I would like you to share that difference between being a consumer and being an owner of a company.
Jason:
Yeah. This is, I would say, one of the most common questions that I receive, as well, on my side. People will say, well, why would I avoid this prominent company as an investment if I’m a patron, if I’m a delighted customer about their service? So, we could take any number of examples here. For example, Amazon. People love Amazon. They get things all the time from their business. And so why wouldn’t I be perfectly okay with owning and profiting from Amazon? Especially if I’m a delighted customer. And the way that we respond to this is that there’s just simply a different level of responsibility as a consumer, as a patron of a business than if you are the owner of a business, and I’ll give you the classic example here. So, forget the Amazon example that I gave you. Just let’s consider an easy one. So, let’s think about a local gas station convenience store in our own community. So let’s say I need to get gasoline and I go there, I fill up my car, I go in, and I buy an orange juice and I walk away. So I’ve done business with gasoline and orange juice, right? Nothing wrong with that. Now think about the other side of the equation. Let’s say the gas station also sells pornography, tobacco. And so as the owner of that business, he’s happy, of course, to have me as a customer buying gasoline and orange juice, but the reason he’s selling those products is because he’s hoping people buy them. And as the owner of the business, he’s rooting for and profiting from the sale of all of those products. And so if we think about it, as a consumer, I have a clean conscience. Now I might choose to go out of my way to patronize a different convenience store that maybe didn’t sell tobacco or pornography. So, I’ve got some choice there as a consumer that I think is very good to exercise. But as the owner of that convenience store, you’re profiting from all of it. And so if we think about this now in terms of investing, we can see the real key here is that you’re owning and profiting from all of that company’s products and services. And so do we feel good about everything that they’re offering? And so I think there’s a higher level of ethical responsibility when you own a business than simply as a consumer who patronizes the business.
Bob:
Yeah, there’s a big difference there. But like I do say, if I see that they’re selling that, and I hate it when they push the lottery tickets too – the same thing. I steer clear of doing business with them, but sometimes I just got to fill up gas in my car. And you know, if I’m out in the middle of nowhere, it’s understandable. So there is a big difference between being a consumer and an owner. But we do want to emphasize that if you have a choice in a matter, go to the convenience store that’s not selling that and not involved in gambling and tobacco in a huge way. But when given the choice, don’t go. And when given the choice of owning that particular company, same thing. I’ve heard people say, yeah, but owning a stock makes me a part owner in the company if I own a lot of it. I could actually be involved in getting that company to stop their funding of agendas that violate moral principles, Christian principles. What are your views on that of owning a company for that reason? Have you ever seen anybody come about?
Jason:
Yeah, absolutely. I do think there’s a place for this. So, let’s just step back for a second and think about this ownership concept. So if we believe that investing is true company ownership, this should lead us to ask ownership questions. Things like, well, are there certain kinds of companies that because of my beliefs, values and commitments, I just can’t in good conscience own, right? So, there’s the ‘what do I not want to own’ aspect? Then, we could exercise that in a positive direction and say, well, what are the companies that best reflect my vision for the way that the world should be that embody kingdom values, that embody business calibrated towards service of others and love of neighbor, right? There’s a positive side that we can think about ownership, positively seeking out companies that embrace our values. And then there’s a third one that we could think about. We could say, well, this ownership has a voice in the company. And so maybe I could strategically invest in businesses that do not meet my values criteria with an effort to try to change them. Okay. So I want to give you an example of a positive use of this. So, the year is 1971 and you have a group of Christians who are concerned about apartheid in South Africa. Apartheid, for those of you who may not know, is the South African word for separation. It was a form of racial segregation, much like we experienced in the US during Jim Crow. And there was a group of Christians that was concerned about this and in fact the United nations had already applied sanctions and embargoes on South Africa, and South Africa basically said, we don’t care. And so what do you do if you’re a Christian? Well, there was a group of Christians, they were Episcopals who decided to become shareholders of General Motors and to write what’s called a shareholder resolution. And this is actually the first example of modern shareholder advocacy according to economic historians. They ended up enlisting the help of a person named Leon Sullivan, who was a Baptist minister and someone who cared a lot about the apartheid problem in South Africa. He was black, and he grew up in the era of segregation in the US. When he was 10 years old, he was sitting at a soda fountain and he was told to leave that he couldn’t purchase a soda there, and that left a mark on him. He carried that burden with him. And so when he started to hear about similar situations in South Africa, he became an anti-apartheid activist. So, they enlisted the help of this person named Leon Sullivan. He drafted up a proposal for General Motors, a set of principles. They’re called the Sullivan Principles that GM could implement to satisfy this shareholder resolution that the Episcopal Christian shareholders had filed. GM ended up embracing these Sullivan Principles. In fact, they brought him onto the board of GM, believe it or not. They embraced these principles. Things like you’ve got to desegregate your bathrooms. No separate water fountains, equal pay for equal work, equal working conditions for blacks and for whites. And so it was a great success. And then guess what happened? So the following year, Ford followed suit. Ford had operations in South Africa as well, as well as Goodyear. And so like dominoes, these companies began to fall in line and actually history remembers the actions of these Christians through intentional shareholder investment as one of the key instruments in the fall of apartheid. It was investor pressure and it was Christians who are exercising conviction. So I do think there’s positive examples. Now, let me give you a big, big word of caution, and that is this.
Jason:
I think that if we’re going to employ this strategy, we need to be really honest with ourselves in what we’re doing. So, I want to talk about this. The big temptation here is what I describe as missionary investing. Okay. So for those that are Christians that are listening to this, maybe you’ve heard of the term missionary dating?
Bob:
I was about to say that. Yeah. I’ve heard of missionary dating. Right.
Jason:
Yeah. So missionary dating, it’s a Christian thing, but it describes a person who’s a Christian who wants to date somebody who is a nonbeliever, and they know in their heart of hearts that this is a bad idea, right? The person is misaligned with them on the things that matter most, but gee, they’re so desirable, right? And so they say, well maybe, just maybe, I can convert if I start dating this person, then then my Christian witness will shine out and I’ll end up converting them. And we can live happily ever after. We know how this goes. This tends to go very poorly. The people are very resistant to change. Of course, God can work miracles. He does with salvation every single day. But if you think about that idea of missionary dating, what you’re doing is, you know it’s a bad idea, but there’s something attractive in that other person that causes you to quiet your conscience and move forward. Now, think about missionary investing. Let’s say, oh, this company doesn’t meet my values, but gosh, the numbers look so good and I love everything about this company except these few problem areas. And you tell yourself that you can convert that company, and maybe you never even take any actions but you step into that situation and you say, well I’m there so that I’ve got a voice in the company, and I can exercise that voice anytime I want and I can bring about positive change. And I think we have to be honest with ourselves and ask, are we really stepping into it like those Episcopal shareholders with great intention or are we simply allured by the attractive financial merits of that company and quieting our Christian conscience? We need to listen to our hearts and the Holy Spirit here. I think it’s a very dangerous thing we do whenever we are going to set aside our values and say we’re going to do something intentional that is a bit out of line. And so I would just offer that huge caution. I think that it can be done, but for the most part I think Christian witness is on the side of choosing companies that already meet your values.
Bob:
Well, I wrote this down, and I have been doing this a long time and I’ve heard of missionary dating a long time. I talked about it with my children, who are all older now, but I’ve never thought of it as missionary investing. So, that’s a term that I wrote down, and my listeners need to know, I’m going to be talking about that now.
Jason:
Yeah. I happened upon it myself. It just occurred to me one day. I really liked it. I use it a lot now. So, you have full license.
Bob:
Thank you. I appreciate that. So, what about when some people are like, I’ve got $50,000 total or $500,000, but these are billion dollar companies and what’s my $50,000 or even $500,000 gonna make any difference in this billion dollar plus company? They don’t know who I am. Does it really matter that I invest in these companies anyway cause it’s just such a small amount, and I’m just doing it for the return.
Jason:
Yeah. I think it’s helpful to think about our impact in a couple of different ways. Okay. So one way that is very common for people to think about impact is social change. So let’s say changing a company or changing culture or changing the broader society, and that’s very legitimate, right? I think a kind of impact that we overlook, though, is the impact on our own personal integrity and our own wholeness. And I would say that the proper perspective, at least as a first step in this direction, is to consider your own personal wholeness as important an impact than any beneficial impact that could happen on the world. Now, I do believe that this can have a beneficial impact on the world, but I hope that we can recognize that this is a way in which we can feel a peace of conscience and to feel complete and to feel whole. Just one note on wholeness here. I really like that word. We get the word wholeness from the word integrity. So, integrity means the state of being whole or undivided. And the root word for integrity comes from the Latin integer, which we know from mathematics. What is an integer in mathematics, it is a “whole” number and when you don’t have a whole number, so whole numbers are like one, two, three, four, five, et cetera. When you don’t have a whole number, what do you have? You have a fraction, you have one quarter, one half, or five eighths. You have a divided number. And what it means to have wholeness is to have that feeling of being a whole number, a whole person, right? And to not have that sense that you are divided in some way that what you believe in one part of your life is not being fully expressed in other areas, and that lack of wholeness can feel like a loss of life’s meaning and it can feel like losing your sense of self. You can feel as though you’re not a solid individual in the world, that you’re compromised in these various ways, that you’re a fraud, that you’re a walking contradiction. That really erodes our sense of self. It is like rust on a car that spreads and corrodes further and further. And so I just really encourage people to think about themselves first and to think about wouldn’t it be wonderful if I could – yeah, sure, save up for my future – but to do so in ways that I genuinely felt good about, that I felt proud about, that I could offer up to God in prayer, and hold my investments out to him and be proud of those investments. That feeling – there is a positive, emotional return that comes from that. And I think we need to think about that first before we think about the impact on the greater world. So one other comment there and then maybe if you’d like, I can address how this does in fact change the world. But one other comment there is, I think in God’s eyes, small obediences are never overlooked. I think that God is a God that cares about the smallest details of our lives. There’s scriptures that talk about how there’s nowhere that I can go in this world to hide from God’s watchful eye. And that’s not to scare us. We should live as those that walk in the light, not in the darkness, and he sees all things and he is so rooting for us and he’s given us his Holy Spirit to empower us. And so, our small actions, they might amount to a widow’s Mite, right? But these small obediences are really great things in God’s kingdom. If you think about, for example, Mary who wasted a jar of perfume by anointing Jesus’s feet. It’s a relatively small gesture, but Jesus said that every place that the gospel is shared, the story of her sacrifice would be told along with the gospel. That is amazing, right? That’s a small act that is remembered in history. God sees it, God cares, and the small things matter a great deal to him.
Bob:
What you’re saying is it’s the little things that matter. We’ve always heard the story about the little boy on the seashore, and he’s throwing starfish back into the ocean because a bunch of them have washed up. This guy comes along and says, you can’t save all of these starfish. And he just reached down and he grabs that one. He throws it and he said, I just saved that one. And it made a difference to that little boy because he was doing all he could. So, the little things are what matters. I love that you brought this out, and it’s not just about impacting our world, but it’s about impacting us and what’s it going to do to us. I will tell you from all these years of being involved in biblically responsible investing, I have seen people’s walk with the Lord move from elementary to all the way up to a doctorate degree. Biblically responsible investing, I’ve seen it push people into a stronger and deeper walk with the Lord and to a deeper faith.
Jason:
Yeah, I’ve seen it too.
Bob:
Isn’t that cool?
Jason:
It is cool. It is such a blessing, especially, I know that you feel the same way that I do, getting to work in an industry where we’re able to work on the money side, and putting money, basically using money as an expression of our faith and to see the results of that. I think about there’s a verse where Jesus says, and you’ll know this verse well, “Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” And so it’s a little bit, it’s a little bit odd, right? Because he could have said, “Where your heart is, that’s where you’ll put your treasure.” So in other words, your heart wants something and you put your money there. That makes sense from a human perspective. But he actually said that if we put our money somewhere, our hearts will follow it. And so I do think that when we move our money in line with our faith, we end up moving our heart in line with our faith. And it is a leading action. I’ve seen this over and over. There’s actually a book by an advisor named Cassandra Laymon. It’s “How I Found Jesus in the Stock Market”, how she ended up pursuing typically responsible investing and how that was a catalyst to a much larger work of the spirit in her life. And I don’t think that’s a coincidence. I think that money is so bound up with the heart and that if we take this action with our money, we may not feel it immediately with our heart, but I would offer that as a challenge to anyone. Try it. See what happens because I think this is a way that can catalyze much change in our lives for the better.
Bob:
What you were speaking of, just so y’all know, was Matthew 6:20-21, “But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven where moths and vermin do not destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
Jason:
Can I just say one thing about that? I’ve been really thinking about the first verse you shared there about when we think about investing, if we’re honest, it is about storing up things for ourselves for the future, right? Where we’re investing so that we can have more money in the future, which , we can use to meet all of our needs and obligations and care for family and all of that. All that’s good. But it is about that. But I think what Jesus challenges us to do is to figure out how we can build wealth toward God. In other words, riches in heaven, right? And I think at the heart of biblically responsible investing is to prioritize a life that builds riches in God. We’re not talking about money here. We’re talking about riches in God that will endure for all eternity and our dollars should follow that greater mission in our lives to put the kingdom first and to build wealth toward God. I just love the way in which he contrasts something ordinary, which is very much like investing, to something that is so much more important, which is to become rich toward God.
Bob:
Well, it’s like it says, seek ye first the kingdom and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. So Jason, you’re with Eventide Asset Management, and I just respect y’all so much. You were talking about Robin and Finny, and Robin has been in my office. I remember when Robin first came into my office. Robin told me this at the conference, and I didn’t know it. I felt so bad cause y’all are in the billions now. I said, well Robin, how much do y’all have under management? He said, well right now 7 million. And he said, I laughed and I didn’t mean to do that. I feel so bad. And he said, I didn’t know what to think about that. I said, well you know brother,, you’re our number one holding, now, investment portfolios.
Jason:
Wow, I didn’t know that. That’s awesome.
Bob:
Anyway, Eventide Asset Management is really about investing in these companies that have a positive impact in our world and avoiding those companies that don’t. So can you speak into how Eventide does this?
Jason:
Yeah, absolutely. So it really is not that sophisticated, at least at a thought level. So I think it really is helpful to think about investing as company ownership. Remember I said, what are the companies or industries or products or services that we cannot support simply in good conscience, right? And just establish a line in the sand where you say, I don’t want profits that flow from things like pornography or abortion or gambling or tobacco, et cetera. There’s a whole list of, I think, really obvious and egregious examples that I think if we’re honest with us as believers – now we may land in different places on various issues – but I think we could very easily come up with a set of things where we say, wow, I know these things break God’s heart and yeah, I don’t want to profit from them. And so that’s step one. And so we’ve got a whole system that we’ve built over the years. We use a lot of research from some data sources like Evalueator, which you know of. It’s a Christian data screening service that helps us to gain information on the companies that we’re choosing on behalf of our clients. And so there’s actually a whole lot of negatives that we avoid. I think the last time I checked we had about 220 specific screens in place. Now, a lot of those are facets of larger issues, but 220 specific screens. That’s driven by about 700 to 800 rules within a software program that we developed, and that helps us to just at least wipe out the worst kinds of businesses that we have no interest in partnering with, and our clients don’t either. But then you’re still at square one to a certain extent, right? You still haven’t invested in anything, and you’ve got to come up with a portfolio. Well, how do you do that? I think the next step is to ask questions like what kind of companies would I feel proud to own? What kind of companies do I feel like are well aligned with God’s heart and his design for business? What are the businesses that I feel like are genuinely serving society and enlarging what we might call human flourishing? That sense of improving people’s lives. And I think those positive questions can be a really helpful guide. I don’t think that our faith stops at avoiding the worst kinds of examples, but our faith is meant to be something that is a lived reality. Jesus talked about, “I have come that you may have life and have it abundantly.” And so I think we should really be interested to think about how we can exercise the positive dimension of our faith in seeking out companies that we feel like are really well aligned with our faith. I’ll give you a little bit of an insight into how we do that. This requires a bit more Christian imagination, but if you think about the role of business in society, and I think in God’s larger economy, I think that God has designed human work and business in such a way that it is to meet a lot of our material needs through products and services. And in meeting those needs, businesses and human work is also intended to bring glory and honor to God. And so I think it starts by thinking about, okay, what are the needs that exist in the world today that business is meeting that are well aligned with a Christian understanding, right? That are well aligned with our understanding of God’s heart. And I think that we can come up with a number of spaces that are interesting places to go look for companies. For example, one of our favorites here at Eventide is the area of biotechnology where you can find many businesses often run by secular non-believing, people that are applying, though, their God-given human creativity to try to tackle devastating diseases and to eradicate those diseases. And I think we should be excited about that work as believers. We get to participate in businesses that, in effect, are destroying the works of the devil, so to speak. So brokenness and disease and death entered the world through the fall. The whole creation is under a curse. And by investing in these businesses, it feels to me a little bit like we get to roll back the curse a little bit and to participate with businesses that are really doing excellent work. What I try to encourage people to think about is think about behind the numbers. There’s a story behind the numbers, and isn’t that what we should be rejoicing in? People’s lives made better.
Bob:
Absolutely.
Jason:
And so that’s what we’re all about is trying to find investments where we can meet our financial needs in life. You know, that’s absolutely part of the service, but to do so by partnering with companies that are enabling blessing and rejoicing in the lives of others.
Bob:
It’s also investing in companies that treat their employees well, and they care about our environment. I always say if you love the Creator, take care of the creation.
Jason:
Yup.
Bob:
Businesses that have honest accounting principles and low debt and that’s what we’re talking about, folks. When we talk about biblically responsible investing, we’re not just talking about avoiding the bad, but looking at the good and feeling good and sleeping well because that you’ve done the right thing.
Jason:
Yup.
Bob:
Is there any last words of wisdom? Some folks might say, I’ve never heard of this. How do I get involved? How do I find out? Give us that website address and we can help them, too.
Jason:
They can go to eventideinvestments.com. Eventide Is E-V-E-N-T-I-D-E, eventideinvestments.com. They can check us out there, and a lot of people don’t do a do-it-yourself approach of choosing investments. They work through a financial advisor, and you’re one of the few out there who specialize in helping Christians align their values and their investments. So, I would encourage people to sit down with you and have a conversation about what this looks like. But in conversations like these where we end up addressing some of the common objections that people might have, I hope that some of this has been helpful to you. I think there are rational explanations for all of your questions. I certainly have heard many, many questions over the years. We only got to touch on a fraction of them today, but I do want to just encourage you to think back to what I was saying about the value of living out your faith in every aspect of your life, including in your investments. And we can often throw up questions and objections because we’re very resistant to change and we’re very scared to step out in faith, but I really think this is an opportunity for us to experience that feeling of wholeness that I talked about and what a wonderful thing. I think it’s also one of those things where we can not only store up treasures on earth, but look to build those treasures in heaven that are much, much more valuable and that have the highest return of all.
Bob:
Jason, thank you for taking time out of your day. When I speak with folks like you and have you on my podcast, I don’t want it to end because it just makes me so excited every day when I wake up and know that God owns it all. This is one of those things, folks, is just the freedom that comes with saying, God, I know it all belongs to you and I don’t want to be in control. I want you to be in control and you submit to that. Investing with biblical principles aligns right there with the fruits of the spirit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control, and can give you that peace that you’re just doing another thing, you’re adding that to the life of obedience of a Christian. Just like tithing and giving is part of it, this is another part of it. If you’re already biblically responsible, I encourage you to continue to give that to God. If you don’t know about it, I ask you to look into it and maybe go to our website CISwealth.com, and we’ll link you through over to Eventide and some other great fund families that honor God with the way they do it. That’s going to do it for today. If you just want to give us a call, (830) 609-6986 during business hours or go to our website ciswealth.com, and there’s a link there you can set an appointment. Thank you for joining us today on the podcast and thank you, Jason.
[CONCLUSION]
That’s all for now. We invite you to listen to all of our past episodes covering many financial topics from a Christian Perspective. To make sure you don’t miss any of Bob’s upcoming episodes you can subscribe to Christian Financial Perspectives on iTunes, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher. To learn more about integrating your faith with your finances, visit ciswealth.com or call 830-609-6986.
[DISCLOSURES]
Comments from today’s show are for informational purposes only and not to be considered investment advice or recommendations to buy or sell any company that may have been mentioned or discussed. The opinions expressed are solely those of the host, Bob Barber and his guests. Bob does not provide tax advice and encourages you to seek guidance from a tax professional. Investment advisory services offered through Christian Investment Advisors Inc. DBA Christian Financial Advisors, a registered investment advisor.
0 min
April 17, 2020 74 – Dealing with Fear & Uncertainty During COVID-19
Click below to listen to Episode 74 – Dealing with Fear & Uncertainty During COVID-19
Dealing with Fear & Uncertainty During COVID-19

Learn about the psychology behind fear.

More episodes >>

Bob interviews Dr. Andy Ward, who breaks down fear, what causes it, and the brain’s reactions to feeling fear. In the midst of COVID-19, almost all of us are facing emotions like fear, grief, and anxiety surrounding the uncertainty following this pandemic. This is the first time an epidemic of this proportion has occurred since the Spanish Flu over 100 years ago.
Dr. Ward is a licensed psychologist who specializes in clinical and neuro-psychological services that Bob heard speak about FEAR on a webinar. He has been helping individuals, couples, and families for over 21 years while providing therapy from a faith based perspective.
We are truly hoping that what he has to say about fear and uncertainty will help you during these times of unrest surrounding the coronavirus epidemic.

GUESTS: Dr. Andy Ward, Licensed Psychologist
HOSTED BY: Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®
Mentioned In This Episode

Christian Financial Advisors
Website

Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®

Dr. Andy Ward
Ward Psychology

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[INTRODUCTION]
Welcome to “Christian Financial Perspectives”, where you’re invited to gain insight, wisdom and knowledge about how Christians integrate their faith, life and finances with a Biblical Worldview. Here’s your host Christian Investment Advisor, Financial Planner, and Coach Bob Barber.
[EPISODE]
Bob:
Isaiah 41:10, “Do not fear for I am with you. Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. I will strengthen you. Surely I will help you. Surely I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. Do not fear. I will help you. You notice, fear appears a few times in that scripture. So, today’s podcast, we’re going to be talking about fear and dealing with all these uncertainties right now that we’ve seen in our lives with the Coronavirus epidemic going on, and unless we’re just over a hundred years old, this is the first time an epidemic like the Coronavirus has happened in pretty much 99% of our lifetimes. You know, by far, this is the first time in history for most of us, but it’s not the first time for history, and it won’t be the last, but when it happens to us, you know, fear can grip us about the uncertainties of what could happen. So I’ve invited Dr. Andy Ward, a licensed psychologist who specializes in clinical and neural psychological services. I asked Andy before I said that, make sure that word, I said that right. Did I do that good, Andy? And he’s gonna speak to us today about fear. I heard him a couple of weeks ago on a webinar and he was so good. I wanted him to be a guest on our podcast. So Andy, tell us about your experience and I know we’re going to talk about fear today, but tell our audience about how you’ve been helping people with this for a long time.
Andy:
Yeah. Well, thank you Bob. It’s a real pleasure to be a part of this today. Well, by way of introduction, again, I’m a licensed psychologist. I’ve been operating a clinical practice for 21 years. I also run a separate relational leadership consulting firm, so that keeps me busy. I also do some work in the family office arena. It’s not uncommon for me to work alongside various financial planners across the country and working with high net worth families, dealing with some very complicated family dynamics when there’s wealth involved and there’s generosity involved and I just help provide another voice of reason so that people are functioning at a much higher capacity within the family system. So, that’s just a little bit of overview as to my background. In light of what’s happening in today’s world, boy, this is near and dear to my heart because I am seeing it. The impact that is across so many layers personally, in my own family, and my friends, in my employees. As a business owner, I have to think about cashflow and providing for their needs. And then certainly just with the families I work with, there is not a context of my life that has not been affected by what’s happening.
Bob:
And you’ve been married a long time. I think you told me 21 years and you have three boys. How old are those boys that you’ve got?
Andy:
Yeah, well 14, 11, and 7, and they are all boys. I mean, I can prove it by the ER visits we’ve had and all the scrapes and bruises and bumps, and they keep me on my toes, that’s for sure.
Bob:
So those of you with boys at home, and three boys, and it sounds like they’re full of a lot of energy, so you’re really getting to experience this big time at home.
Andy:
That’s right. Well, you know, idle hands is what we’re dealing with right now because they’re doing school from home, but it doesn’t occupy the whole day. And so just the other day I walked out into my garage and my second son had the gas tank out, all my tools strewn about the garage, and I asked, I said, what are you doing? He’s like, I was thinking about trying to build a bomb. I said, good luck with that son. If you need me, I’ll be in the next room. And I just slowly shut the door. No, he was actually just having some fun working on our go cart. But nonetheless, yes. It’s been interesting actually even observing the effect of all this anxiety and fear, even within my own children.
Bob:
We went to the grocery store the other day, and I saw these children with these masks on and these gloves and I was thinking, my goodness, this is so different than the world I grew up in and now they’re having to experience this.
Andy:
Yeah, we are leaving indelible memories. They’ll never let go of some of these memories. I hope that, at least certainly in my family, they can walk away saying, although there was fear, it was some of the richest time relationally because we really reconnected on some deep levels. That’s my hope as a parent.
Bob:
Yes. And through all this that Jesus Christ will be glorified and people will come to know him. And so Andy, we’re speaking about fear today. And in speaking of that word fear, I mean there’s fear for our health. Fear for our family members. I’ve got my elderly mom here. She’s 86, and she lives in a little town about 15 miles from here. But we went and got her and she’s been with us now for about three or four weeks and that’s just real different for my wife and I. So we’re concerned about our family’s health, our friends’ health. There’s a lot of fear of uncertainty in the economy, as well, and our own finances. So, can you share from a psychological perspective, since you’re a psychologist, what fear is and what it can do to us?
Andy:
Absolutely. There are a few definitions out there, but I like this one which says fear is a powerful and unpleasant reaction caused by the belief that someone or some thing is dangerous or threatening. And one of the reasons why I like that is that the word belief is the key word. Two people can experience the exact same thing and one person, although a little concerned or worried, they’re not folding or caving. Another person who experienced the same thing is absolutely paralyzed by this thing called fear. And so we are the moderating variable, meaning what we believe will determine usually how strong that emotion is.
Bob:
Wow. I wrote this down. It’s a belief that something will happen. Did I say that correctly?
Andy:
Belief that someone or some thing is dangerous or threatening. But typically for people who are really struggling with paralyzing fear, often in their mind they’ve played out a worst case scenario thinking and it’s almost happened internally. There’s some interesting research out there that suggests the brain has a hard time distinguishing between what’s imagined versus what’s real. That’s why you can literally just think of something awful and your body literally experiences some of the emotional and physical consequences of just visualizing it, and if you have already pictured something that was catastrophic, can you see how fear can only just balloon and grow? It is a natural consequence of what we visualize and what we believe internally.
Bob:
So really, our fear and our belief system, they’re intertwined, right? Speak into that.
Andy:
Well, this is one of the most well known and researched psychological concepts, which is just the power of framing something, the power of belief, what you choose to think on. Said another way, what’s the narrative you hold in your head, your mindset? Because that will absolutely determine the emotions you experience and then your behavior. In fact, this is a biblical concept that goes well back to the Old Testament. Proverbs 23:7 says, “So as a man thinks, so is he.” Meaning you are determined not so much what you feel or behave. And some cases, thank goodness for that. It’s what you believe. And in the New Testament, the apostle Paul took this concept and furthered it when he said, ultimately we have to take our thoughts captive. He didn’t realize that he was being an excellent psychologist. Left to our own devices, we tend to want to think negative, cynically, pessimistically, fatalistically, and it’s also why he said we are transformed by the renewing of our mind. I’m telling you, our mind, what we think, what we believe, how we frame something is absolutely pivotal in determining whether we are paralyzed with fear or we’re resilient.
Bob:
Because God is not fear. I mean that’s the way I think of it when I’m thinking about this. It’s like why am I fearing if I really believe God is in control of everything.
Andy:
Mm Hmm. That’s good. Yes.
Bob:
When I heard you recently, you shared that there is some uniqueness to this situation that we’re facing today with the Coronavirus. Ans you shared five points about how our current fears are unique to this situation. Can you share that with our listeners?
Andy:
Yeah, absolutely. I think the one thing that is unique is that everybody’s facing it. This isn’t regional. This isn’t just something that’s happening in the South or in the Pacific Northwest. Everyone is facing it in this country and now the world globally. So there’s this interesting collective consciousness that’s happening that we’re all in this together. I think another reason why this is unique is that being that it’s a pandemic, we have a 24/7 news cycle that’s just reinforcing, not just an information standpoint, but it’s reinforcing and driving home fear and what we need to be scared of. Hear me out. I’m the first one to say that fear in and of itself isn’t wrong or bad cause sometimes it can be protective and help us to think on things we should pay attention to. But if all we’re getting is just this bombardment of messages that’s negative and it’s just of all the misery and suffering. That will affect us emotionally.
Bob:
I want to add in something here. You know what I always tell people? Turn off Fox news and turn on the Andy Griffith Show.
Andy:
Well, you know, it’s interesting you say that. We’ve been exposing my children to the Andy Griffith show as well as The Brady Bunch over the last several weeks and it’s just kind of interesting to have them park their mind on something a little bit more lighthearted. Here’s a personal boundary I’ve set for myself, Bob. Last week I stopped watching network news. I just stopped it altogether. Every single time I was watching it, I would come away feeling more anxious, worried, and fearful. So I’ve decided I’m going to consume all of my news media through reading, and the advantages of that are I get to start and stop when I want. I also get to gloss over the things that are a little more sensational rather than factual. And that’s really helped me manage this emotion called fear.
Bob:
You know what? I’ve done that same thing, and I’m getting my information off the internet. Of course, the internet is always right and true as we know. But anyway, I’m just getting mine directly as reading myself because you know, when you see it and you hear it, it tries to get into your soul, and I’ve done the same thing and it has helped me so much. We’re taking care of our elderly mom, as I said, and we’ve just stopped. We’re not going to watch this in the living room right now, and it has helped. It has helped a bunch. So I’m glad you shared that. When you said we’re bombarded, you think about the Spanish Flu a hundred years ago, they didn’t have this.
Andy:
That’s right. That’s right. Something else that makes us unique. Again, we are in a global economy. We’re also connected globally. So what happens here happens around the world. We just hear about it. I think that’s unique in light of something like the Spanish Flu. I think this is one of the biggest ones though. The disruption that we’re having in our daily life really reinforces how serious this is. I mean, think about it. We’re not just washing our hands more. We are self quarantining. In some cases, mandated to quarantine. We’re changing the way we shop, the way we do business. I mean, even in my business, my service delivery, I’m having to do everything from my basement at my house. Not a single area has been untouched by this, as I mentioned previously. And so that just really reinforces that this is a big deal that can grow our sense of fear. And then I think just lastly, kind of to a point you alluded to a moment ago, with the Spanish flu. We just think that today in our modern world with all the technology and science that we’re somewhat immune to these kinds of calamities and catastrophes. But if you think about it, it’s only been a few generations out that we’ve actually had things like indoor plumbing and things such as having heated and cooled environments and having the medicine that we have. I mean, we’re relatively not far removed from living in a world where danger was ever present. We just seem to be insulated from that. We think we are, but I think we’re learning in this process that just because we live in a modern world, that doesn’t mean that we’re generally immune to things that can hurt us.
Bob:
Thinking about disruption in our daily lives. And I think one of the things that just, as Americans, and especially, you know, this is on Christian Financial Perspectives, Christians love fellowship and the one thing that comes with fellowship is eating.
Andy:
Yes, yes.
Bob:
We can’t go out to eat. We can’t get together in church and have fellowship. I was listening to our church service yesterday online and then my mom’s, and everybody is talking about when we all come back together, this is going to be one gigantic, big, potluck dinner. Because of the fellowship and that is what’s so different. I remember we’ve had economic downturns but we’ve never had it where we could not get together and shake hands and high five and give each other hugs. I am a people loving person. We we’re sitting on our porch last night and we live in the country on 17 acres. I was just telling my wife, I miss people. I mean, I said, I love you baby, but I miss people and just being around all my kids and my friends. That’s where this is really disruptive. Extremely. And then that fear, it starts to get into our feelings. So, you have the fear and the feeling part of it and how all that’s related. And I know there’s a lot of feelings that are related to this economic impact too. You shared there’s 10 common feelings, there’s five points that are unique about this, and then you have these 10 feelings. This is going to take us a while. So, if you’ll go into those 10 common feelings related to this economic impact.
Andy:
Yeah. And that’s what I’ve been hearing specifically related to the economic/ financial piece of this. Certainly insecurity and worry. We don’t know what’s going to happen. Uncertainty is another one. Also, a general sense of unsettleness. In some cases, anger. Anger has been an emotion I’ve heard from colleagues and friends and even the clients I’ve worked with. They’re just mad it’s just come to this, and they’re mad that they can’t, in some cases, business owners I work with, that they can’t keep their employees. Certainly as we’ve said, fear, but you know what? Fear can also morph into downright panic. I do know of some people who are having panic related symptoms. This is an interesting one. Another one is grief. I’ve actually heard a colleague of mine state that all this general feelings that we have and even the irritability that we might have with our family members is actually a mild form of grief. We are grieving the loss of our life the way it was. And then that can go into sadness and depression. Impulsivity is another one. Boy, that can really happen when it comes to trying to manage our money. I do have permission to share this, but one of my business partners, he liquidated all of his holdings and he went to a strictly cash basis and that was because of fear. I know the recession in ’08 just really impacted him in a negative way, but it can lead to that general sense of I have to do something. I have to do something, but that can lead to impulsive decision making too. And I think this is one of the most powerful ones we can feel. It’s that general sense of powerlessness. In fact, we know this, due to research, that a subjective sense of I have no power triggers that sense of acute stress, excuse me, chronic stress more than anything else. And the one of the things I like to encourage people when I’m working with them is you always have choice. Always. Even if you’re just choosing your attitude in the midst of difficult circumstances, you’re never fully powerless. And so just helping them try to understand where they can make choices to engender a sense of empowerment is very important.
Bob:
You know, as you were going through these, I was thinking about myself because you went to security, uncertainty, unsettleness, anger, fear, panic, grief, sadness, impulsivity, powerlessness. I think of myself and I don’t hit many of those, but I do hit the part about being sad. That’s where I was just saying I’m sad that I can’t be around my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ that I just love so much and that I’m powerless. I mean, I can’t do anything about it.
Andy:
I just can connect with that feeling. I want to reach out and hug some of my cousins, my inlaws, some of my other family members, and I just can’t do that. You know, I know the extroverts in the world are really taking this hard. I almost want to do some social research. How are the introverts doing? Because I would imagine at first, you know, feeling sequestered may be a little bit easier. I’m being presumptuous about that, but…
Bob:
No, you’re not because, as you know, opposites attract. My wife is an introvert and it hasn’t been hard on her.
Andy:
I’m just curious when are they going to actually hit that wall and realize, all right, enough’s enough.
Bob:
Yeah, that is interesting, isn’t it? So as you were going over these and you talked about the impulsivity, impulsiveness. I shared with you a chart that we always give to people. It’s called the “Cycle of Market Emotions”. And there’s some books about this too. This cycle of market emotions really goes through what people go through during this. I’d like to hear your thoughts on this cycle of market emotions chart that I shared with you.
Andy:
Yeah, I loved looking at this because to me, what does this reflect? It reflects human psychology. It reflects how our emotions are emblematic and part and parcel of even our financial strategy. You know, there’s some interesting, again, research out there that suggests even people who pride themselves in being analytical and numbers driven actually make more emotionally derived decisions than they realize. And boy, that shows up in this cycle of market emotions. Just like the numbers go up and down, so do our feelings. All right. From optimism, excitement, there’s a thrill. And then when the market begins to tank or at least begin to slide down, anxiety is not long to follow. In some cases there’s even denial. Yet, all the trending is going down and now fear sets in and then the sense of desperation and panic and that’s when we really need good advisors to come alongside and give us wisdom and perspective. Because I’m just a firm believer in this statement – you can’t know yourself by yourself. We need people outside of us to speak into us, even in love and respect, call us out on some of the ways we might have blind spots and that’s what a good advisor can do.
Bob:
Well Ecclesiastes says that two are better than one and you know and over in Proverbs, I think it’s 15:22 that says, “Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisors they succeed.” And you know, if you noticed on my chart here, by the way, it will be on our financial perspectives podcast website, which you go to Christianfinancialpodcast.com. So, you can see this chart. But it’s interesting, when everybody’s depressed and saying sell, sell, sell and get me out. That’s when the guys like Warren Buffet are going, buy, buy, buy.
Andy:
Absolutely.
Bob:
Because that’s your successful investors. That’s when they’re wanting to get in, but at the top of these market cycles, when everybody wants in, the markets up, everybody’s thrilled about it. They’re excited. They all want to get in. It goes the exact opposite of what we’re supposed to do as investors because it causes you to buy high and sell low instead of buying low and selling high.
Andy:
Absolutely. Absolutely, and a related issue. I really think that when even the market’s down, one of the ways that we can feel better is to actually think about increasing our generosity. When it says in 1 John, perfect love casts out fear, I not only think that’s love we’re receiving, but love we’re giving. And so there are ways we can just, through love through the vehicle of generosity, really help mitigate our own fear by generosity in that time when it doesn’t make sense.
Bob:
Andy, as Christian financial advisors, we believe so strongly in what you just said because we believe in using biblical principles in good and bad times because we know that biblical principles, they’re rooted in wisdom. When you emotionally feel like selling out of a well thought out investment portfolio that goes along with a longterm financial plan and strategy at the worst possible time, that’s where we, as Christian advisors, will come beside you, walk beside you, and help you make those wise decisions based on the longterm outcome, not days or months, but longterm outcome. As we get to the end of today’s podcast, I want you to share some practical advice. I know you have like five pieces of practical advice that you shared recently in the webinar that you did for us financial advisors, but let’s do it from the perspective of our listeners and how they can take this practical advice and apply it.
Andy:
Absolutely. Well, number one, I do think we need to move people away from fear to concern. Now, I’m drawing a distinction between those two emotions. Fear usually tends to have forward momentum that’ll make it worse, but I do think there’s something very wise about being concerned about your current state of affairs as well as what it’s doing to you emotionally. Concern can lead to action. Concern can lead to proactive movement in a way that can maybe hedge risk, but when you’re just stuck in fear, that almost always gets worse. So, that’s one of the first things, and that’s more of an internal choice. But again, that’s where it all starts. Behavior starts with that internal decision that I can make a choice here to frame this in a way that’s not so paralyzing. I think number two, and this is a related one, but we have to be very cautious against worst case scenario thinking. This is so important. And I’m speaking to myself, frankly, in all of this, but we know that the human brain tends to want to look at situations in a more negative light. We want to see the negative things. It’s considered, on one hand, an advantage to know how things can go wrong, but this is a cascading effect. The more we just see this worst case scenario thinking it’s going to impact us physically, psychologically, relationally. And I think practically a way to combat worst case scenario thinking is to now think about best case scenario thinking or at the very least mixed case scenario thinking. This reminds me of one of my all time favorite quotes by Mark Twain and he said this near the end of his life. He said, “I am an old man and I’ve known a great many trials and tribulations in life, most of which never came true.”
Bob:
Yeah, that’s good.
Andy:
I think what he’s saying to us, Bob, is that sometimes the things we fear happen, but most of the time, most of the time, the things that we project into the future and we fear doesn’t tend to happen.
Bob:
I like to speak into that too because I was raised, you heard me saying this earlier, my dad was a big Norman Vincent Peale fan and a lot of people don’t know who that was. He was a very positive thinker. So, my dad was always looking at everything positively. And I see this, when we come out of this to pin up demand of going to restaurants and going to ball games and going on vacations. I think of a, and this is the country boy in me, I’ve been raised around rodeos and ranches. It’s like a bull wanting to come out of the pen and he hasn’t gotten to come out for a long time. And I think that we’re just going to see this amazing pinup demand all of a sudden hit our economy that’s going to be good for the economy. So I’m looking at that as man, I can’t wait.
Andy:
I’m so with you on that. But as the apostle Paul says, we have to take those thoughts captive. We can’t let them grow. You either feed them or fight them. Let’s choose to fight them. Right? You know, I think a third thing is just to remind people of history. Guess what? All pandemics up until this point have ended. Markets do come back. Economies do rebound. Jobs come back. I just think it’s really hopeful to just get a lesson from history that our current circumstances aren’t necessarily now the rest of the story. History informs us things get better. Boy, we need that reminder.
Bob:
Well, after the Spanish Flu, we had the roaring twenties, didn’t we? It ended in 1929, but we had the roaring twenties. Hey, I’m thinking that of history too. I think we’re going to have a baby boom in about 9 or 10 months.
Andy:
You may be right.
Bob:
Well, I hope so. I’ve got one grandson and I want some more of those, you know?
Andy:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, another thing to say just practically, I think it’s helpful to just have people accept the challenges that they’re in rather than resist them. There is a tendency for us psychologically to deny, suppress, repress, avoid, and the research is clear on this. For those who want to be resilient and get out of these negative feelings that they’re struggling with, you just have to accept them. For those who deny them, they last twice as long. And so it may not be the reality you want to be navigating, but there really is something powerful of just accepting here I am and the Lord will get me through it, but I’m going to accept this rather than just avoid it. And perhaps this last one goes without saying, but I’m a firm believer that one way to just navigate this with more success is be more empathic and empathetic to those around you. Maybe even to yourself. I like the saying that says people don’t care what you believe until they believe that you care. And I just think this is a way to show that “1 John Love”. Perfect love casts out fear through the vehicle of empathy. Instead of just jumping in and telling people what they need to do, can we care about their hearts and the human aspect? I think we can. It helps us with our own sense of fear.
Bob:
This is the greatest time in history in our lifetimes that we as Christians can shine God’s light on others.
Andy:
Absolutely.
Bob:
Well, Andy, thank you for being on the podcast today. I want to conclude – and we started off with Isaiah 41:10 – that says, “Do not fear for, I’m with you.” But I want to end up with a couple of scriptures also. And one of the ones that we’ve been putting everywhere is 2 Timothy 1:7, “For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of love and power and self-discipline.” Another one I’ve really been focusing on a lot that’s helped me is Ecclesiastes 3:1-7. I’m not gonna read all seven scriptures, but I would invite you to go to Ecclesiastes, but I’m gonna read a few of them, “For everything there’s a season, a time for every activity under heaven, a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant, and a time to harvest, a time to cry, and a time to laugh.” Now this one really got me, Andy, in the fifth verse. “A time to embrace and a time to turn away.” That’s true right now, isn’t it?
Andy:
Yes sir.
Bob:
“A time to tear and a time to mend. A time to be quiet and a time to speak.” By the way, remember that one too, in our families if things can get tense? And this is an old saying, but I remember my grandma just would really always say this is, “This too shall pass.” This is not going to last forever, and try to focus on the light at the end of the tunnel. Not in the darkness, but focus on the light and get into God’s word and prayer because God does not want us walking around with that spirit of fear. Andy, you’ve done a great job today and I appreciate you coming on. You’ve shared so much. I’ve got a piece of paper. I was writing this down when you were talking about this, and you’ve shared so much. I don’t know what would be the golden nugget, but is there a nugget that you would want to share before we’re done with the podcast today?
Andy:
Only a reiteration of what you said previously. When it says in the beginning of the verse you quoted “fear not”. I just love the fact that it points to the fact that we don’t fear not because it’s bad to feel fear, but why? Because the Lord is with us.
Bob:
Amen. Amen. Well, that’s going to do it today for Christian Financial Perspectives, and I hope this has really helped you in dealing with what we’re going through, and I want you to know we love you. God loves you. If you want to talk to somebody, pick up that phone. We’re available during normal business hours. That’s (830) 609-6986 and if you want to email, you can just go to our website at ciswealth.com and hit on contact us. We’ll email you right back. We are here for you to help you walk through these times. That’s all for today. God bless you.
[CONCLUSION]
That’s all for now. We invite you to listen to all of our past episodes covering many financial topics from a Christian Perspective. To make sure you don’t miss any of Bob’s upcoming episodes you can subscribe to Christian Financial Perspectives on iTunes, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher. To learn more about integrating your faith with your finances, visit ciswealth.com or call 830-609-6986.
[DISCLOSURES]
Comments from today’s show are for informational purposes only and not to be considered investment advice or recommendations to buy or sell any company that may have been mentioned or discussed. The opinions expressed are solely those of the host, Bob Barber and his guests. Bob does not provide tax advice and encourages you to seek guidance from a tax professional. Investment advisory services offered through Christian Investment Advisors Inc. DBA Christian Financial Advisors, a registered investment advisor.
33 min
April 10, 202073 – Finding God’s Purpose During Retirement
Click below to listen to Episode 73 – Finding God’s Purpose During Retirement
Finding God’s Purpose During Retirement

What is your calling following retirement?

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Tune in with Bob as he discusses retirement and finding God’s purpose during this transitional time. What is God’s desire for your life during retirement and are you open to being called to a higher mission? Joining Bob is John Haanen, the founder and CEO of the “Denver Institute for Faith & Work”, an educational nonprofit that teaches and convenes leaders on theology, work, calling, and culture.
Retirement is more than simply ceasing to work a typical 9-5 job. Just because you decide to retire does not mean that your purpose in life is now over, but many people go into a deep depression and time of confusion following this decision. However, there’s actually so much more that you can do now! Bob and John discuss 5 points when it comes to retirement:
The culture of retirement
Sabbath rest after retiring
Finding your calling during retirement
Re-engaging work during retirement for a purpose – a Christian worldview
Stewardship during retirement

GUESTS: Jeff Haanen
HOSTED BY: Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®
Mentioned In This Episode

Christian Financial Advisors
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Bob Barber, CWS®, CKA®

Jeff Haanen
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An Uncommon Guide to Retirement
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Denver Institute for Faith and Work
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5280 Fellowship
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[INTRODUCTION]
Welcome to “Christian Financial Perspectives”, where you’re invited to gain insight, wisdom and knowledge about how Christians integrate their faith, life and finances with a Biblical Worldview. Here’s your host Christian Investment Advisor, Financial Planner, and Coach Bob Barber.
[EPISODE]
Bob:
Numbers 8:23-26, “The Lord said to Moses, this applies to the Levites. Men 25 years old or more shall come to take part in the work at the tent of the meeting, but at the age of 50 they must retire from their regular service and work no longer. They may assist their brothers in performing their duties at the tent of the meeting, but they themselves must not do the work. This then is how you are to assign the responsibilities of the Levites.” So today, we’re going to be talking about retirement. It’s going to be a great subject. You’re really going to enjoy today’s podcast. We’re going to be looking at finding God’s purpose during retirement, and I have a special guest. It’s Jeff Haanen. Is that how you say your last name, Jeff? Is it Jeff Haanen?
Jeff:
Yeah. Close enough. Jeff Haanen.
Bob:
Haanen. Okay. Jeff Haanen. He’s the founder and CEO of the “Denver Institute for Faith and Work”, an educational nonprofit organization up in Denver, Colorado – one of my favorite places to go. Rachael and I love to go to Colorado every year and play in the summer especially. But his organization teaches leaders on theology and their work and their calling and culture. And he’s also founder of a fellowship called “5280”. I’m going to have him tell us what that is here in a minute – an emerging leader’s program in Denver, Colorado, and scatter.org and online learning platform. This is interesting. Jeff writes for “Christianity Today” also and “Comment Magazine” and other publications. So, this is how I found out about Jeff. He’s written this publication called an “Uncommon Guide to Retirement, Finding God’s Purpose for the Next Season of Life”, which is why I’m having him as a guest today on Christian Financial Perspectives. I found out about Jeff through Kingdom Advisors and you’ve heard me talk about that in the past. I’m a cCertified Kingdom Advisor, and when Mary Jo was doing the podcast with me, she is also a Certified Kingdom Advisor. Every month, they have a study group and they’ll have a guest speaker through video. And Jeff was a featured speaker a few months back where he spoke on this uncommon guide to retirement. And then Kingdom Advisors, they have a national conference every year, and I go to that conference every year in Orlando. It’s just a beautiful place. It’s a great time to get together with a bunch of incredible men and women of God that want to serve him in the financial services business. He was a speaker this year and I went to the presentation. You know, Jeff, you don’t know all this but you’re finding as I talk about it, and I was just really impressed by your presentations. So, welcome to Christian Financial Perspectives.
Jeff:
Thanks for having me, Bob. Glad to be here.
Bob:
Jeff, tell us about the Denver Institute for Faith and Work. That’s an interesting title.
Jeff:
Yeah, it’s kind of a mouthful, right? Yeah, kind of sounds highfalutin, but we’re really not. We’re a group of people mostly in Colorado here, though our network stretches throughout the U.S., And what we do, our mission is to inform men and women to serve God, neighbor, and society through their daily work. So, You may hear in that Jesus’ great commandment, “You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, all your soul, all your mind, all your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.” We’re just an organization that believes our daily work is a way to love God, to serve our neighbors, and to demonstrate the gospel to an unbelieving world. And so as it relates to this topic today, we care a lot about themes of work and rest. I think retirement is actually one of those conversations around work and rest.
Bob:
Huh? See, that’s a different perspective. No one thinks about retirement as work and rest. I think they just think about it as rest. And I’m going to go pick up seashells on the seashore the rest of my life and play some golf. I mean, a lot of people think of it that way, but you’ve written this An Uncommon Guide to Retirement, Finding God’s Purpose for the Next Season of Life”. And you know, I’m excited in that I saw that you had five points of action, and this is about helping retirees find that purpose. You define these five points as culture, Sabbath, rest, calling, work, and stewardship. So for today’s podcast, I’d like to go through these five points, and tell us what you mean by these five points starting with that first one, the culture of retirement.
Jeff:
Yeah. So I think the culture of retirement is important to first pause and think about the water that we’re swimming in. And when we’re first going to think about what the Bible says about retirement, I actually thought before that, we need to think about what is our culture saying about this and what are some of the narratives that we’ve believed. So, you know, in the book I outline a few different common views toward retirement that are out there. And there’s really three big ones that I go over and one is “let’s vacation”. This idea of retirement, as you said, is a never ending vacation really marketed to us from post World War II America and the first retirement community went in and Del Webb, Sun City, and Arizona. But this has been a pretty widespread narrative about what retirement is. It’s about never-ending vacation and you should have kind of the best life, you know, that you can have now. And I think there’s some reason that we need to first pause and think, is that really what we’re looking for? The second big thing on this part, on the culture side, is how some, I think Christians, have responded as never ever retire. Yet you even read that interesting Bible verse at the beginning of this podcast. It does seem to think that there is and the Bible hints that retirement isn’t necessarily biblical, but the way that our work and our calling should change over time as we age ought to change. And I think this idea of never retire – well the stats don’t bear it out – people are still retiring in droves, but a lot of people are tired. They actually need rest. They need rejuvenation to figure out what is next in life. And then kind of this third idea in culture, I think there’s another movement in our culture toward what we’re calling “Encore Careers”. And these can be really wonderful opportunities to serve and give back to your community in retirement. But in that, I also want to ask what is really motivating us to reengage your community? What is really going on inside the heart? And that’s one of the big, I think, contributions that Christians can make to this conversation is not only what we’re doing later in life, but why are we doing it?
Bob:
You know, when I went through that scripture, by the way, that’s the only place in the Bible that retire appears, that I know of. I’ve never seen it anywhere else. And you know, I study the Bible and the word daily, but it says at the age of 50 they retire and may work no longer, but they’re going to assist their brothers in performing their duties. So really, there is a purpose. It doesn’t say at the age of 50 they’re going on vacation, but it says they’re assisting their brothers in performing the duties at the tent of the meeting. So, there is definitely a purpose, isn’t there?
Jeff:
Yeah, I think that’s really important that you picked up on that. So, the idea of hauling around the furniture of the tabernacle, it was heavy work. It was difficult work. This was better left to the 20 year olds and 25 year olds, you know, in ancient Israel. And so the idea of at 50 of not hauling around the heavy furniture of the tabernacle makes sense, but they’re still there to assist their brothers in the tent of the meeting. Or some version of the Bible say to minister to them. And I think the real secret that people aren’t thinking about much when they think about retirement necessarily in the Bible, but I think the real secret is this concept of being an elder. And an elder in the Old Testament was a person of wisdom, of blessing, usually like city influence on leadership. Usually, they were a person that had a lot to give from a whole lifetime of accumulated wisdom. So this concept of elders, not only you know what you do like a small group in a church setting, but the Old Testament foundations of that, were people that were leading Israel, the elders of Israel. So as we think about that and I think about what is that image, you know, I think even in our culture today, the word elderly is an insult, you know, it communicates frailty or weakness. But I think we really need to recover this idea of elder to think of Cicero in the Senate at age 80. Like that really is the question that is before us. Is it retreating from culture or is it not necessarily doing the heavy lifting of a young person, but still ministering, blessing, providing wisdom that a culture desperately needs.
Bob:
I’ve got some gray hair now myself, Jeff. I’ll be 58 in June, and I’ve made a lot of mistakes and I think those mistakes have taught me wisdom and following God’s Word. And you know, I love Proverbs because it speaks of wisdom throughout every chapter. Every verse is about wisdom, and it’s so exciting to hear somebody say this today. Hey, just because you’re retired, that doesn’t mean you’re out of the game because you can help so many people by being a mentor to them.
Jeff:
Yeah. And that’s a good word and that’s interesting that you mentioned the wisdom that you have accumulated through mistakes. We work with a lot of millennials in our organization. As I think about the real robust relationships that have developed between either the boomers or the older Xers and then some of the millennials or even gen Z that I know, it really looks a lot like friendship and really looks like vulnerability of sharing the things that have gone well and that really haven’t gone well, and sort of mutual sharing that really does pass on wisdom from one generation to another. It is also humble enough to listen to the next generation to hear what they think and what they feel. I really think that idea of mentoring as intergenerational friendship can be really, really powerful. And it’s kind of a challenge, also. I would say to your listeners and those listening today, who can I develop a real friendship with that might be 30 years younger, right? What would that look like?
Bob:
And I’ll tell you what, they’re begging for it. Because as I got older, I was thinking, well, the millennials are not going to want me as their financial advisor. They’re going to want somebody younger. And I am finding the opposite, Jeff. I’m finding they love the wisdom and insight because they know I’ve been through it.
Jeff:
Yeah, absolutely. And especially during turbulent economic times that we’re in. We need people that have weathered some of these and that and say, okay, I’ve been the captain on this ship a long time. I’ve been through many storms. So, whether that’d be about finances or about life wisdom in general, you’re right. Intergenerationally, we need each other.
Bob:
That’s a good point. You want a captain of a ship when the seas get really rough, you want somebody who has experience with those seas. So, the second point you have is about a Sabbath rest after retiring. And when I heard you talk about this at the conference and also in our study group, I have never thought about this. So, what do you mean by a Sabbath rest after retiring?
Jeff:
Well, here’s the big idea of the book. Really, I think the right category for retirement is not vacation, it’s Sabbath. I think it’s rest. I think a lot of people when they move can be in their early sixties, mid sixties, late sixties, or whenever they retire. I think they need time to rest, to rejuvenate, to listen to God’s voice and to sort of reflect on where they’ve been before they go into that next step. This idea of not only a day of Sabbath rest, but a season of Sabbath rest comes from Leviticus 25 where God commanded the Israelites to let the land rest for one year out of every seven. It’s kind of an interesting ratio there. If you were to rest for one year out of every seven, what would this look like? Would you have, sort of, you know, mojo to keep on going for a very long time. I think that resting for one year our of every seven is pretty unrealistic for most people in their careers, and they need to work regularly. But I think that when most people enter retirement, rather than thinking of, I’m going to go go wild on the vacation thing. Okay, take a vacation. Those are all good. Those are all fine, but let’s figure out what it looks like to recenter our identity and who God says we are, not our work; to trust God to provide for us. I think that’s a critical part of Sabbath rest. Really an important part of Sabbath is also this idea of justice, that the command of Sabbath says not only you should rest, but all of the all the servants, even the animals in your household should rest. So, those are the least cultural power. The Sabbath is meant to restore communities as well. And when we don’t rest, actually, a lot of injustice and idolatry moves for our society as well. So it has personal, individual kind of connotations as well as public. But the idea is when you move into retirement, would you think about taking a season of three or six or nine months of deep Sabbath rest to listen to God’s voice? That’s the main idea.
Bob:
And we’re so familiar with that word as believers in Christ of a sabbatical and telling our pastor, “Hey, you need to go take a sabbatical.”
Jeff:
We all do. We all need one.
Bob:
We all need that. You’re right. And that’s what brings us to our third point that finding your calling during retirement. I love the calling questions that you posed and looking at that, what is my calling? What does God have me do now?
Jeff:
Yeah. So in the book we talked a little bit about calling and I’m trying to save the idea from, this is something that 20 year olds getting out of college talk about. Now, that is something hopefully 20 year olds are getting out of college to talk about. But it’s a much bigger idea. The idea of calling comes from a Latin root ‘vocation’ or this idea of listening to God’s voice over a period all over your whole life. And so calling is really about responding to God’s voice. In the Bible, the highest calling is to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. So, on that is not things about like my ideal job or the right kind of perfect mix between grandkids and part-time fulfilling work. Really, it’s about humbling yourself before God. Really, that’s the first part about calling. And when we can do that, and really listen to God’s voice, it sort of opens up where he leads. So if he says, go back to work full time, or if he says, “Don’t. I want you to be off right now and spend time with a friend who has cancer,” or if it’s working part time or if it’s being present to your spouse for a season, assuming you financially have some of that flexibility, we really want to use that Sabbath rest to start to tune the ear to God’s voice and start asking some of those big questions maybe that you haven’t had a time in a career to ask. Questions like, you know what? I see God in the world. Where do I feel drawn to that, right? Or even some of the harder questions of what am I really afraid of? What I really fear? What have I been running from for all of this life? So, this is a real dynamic conversation between our actions, but also our motivations. God is not only wanting to heal the world, which he does, he also wants to heal our hearts.
Bob:
Amen. Amen. So, the fourth point that you have is re-engaging possibly back into work during retirement for that purpose that you’re finding from having the Sabbath’s rest, and finding that calling. It just seems that I can see how each one of these points points to the next point.
Jeff:
Yeah. So on the work side, you know, You think green gauging work in the season of retirement, those are oxymorons, right? Retirement is not work. I’m not going to do that. But the reality is, especially in the last decade or so, more and more people have been thinking about what would it look like for me to work either part time or even more in retirement. And I think, you know, again in our culture it’s really seen almost like you’ve failed if you’re working later in life. Like, did you not save up enough money? What’s wrong with you? But in the biblical narrative, work is good. God works for six days, rests for one. To work is to be human. And again, as we talked about with this idea of being an elder, I think it changes over time. God doesn’t necessarily expect you to do the same thing you’re doing when you’re in your thirties, but work is about service. Work is about contribution, committed contribution to the needs of others. Whether that’s, you know, serving somebody a bagel at a local bagel shop or whether it’s volunteering at Thrivent or whatever it might be. I think that work, rather than own this sort of the neverending possibilities of what we might do volunteer wise, but really saying what now that I’ve rested and I’m listening to God’s voice, what will I really commit myself to, to whose benefit will I love and serve? Because again, the big picture is still the big picture. It’s still about loving God and loving our neighbor. And if work is an aspect of loving our neighbor, we should rethink, could I in a work context, even amidst the difficulties and the challenges that are there, could I serve well? If so, let’s look for God’s voice in that.
Bob:
Also, I think about work and retire. We were both talking about those two things today. And retire appears in the Bible one time, but work appears over 500 times. And as men when we congregate, and now when women do the same thing, but I know it’s always kinda been a man thing. Like, “Hey, what do you do, bro?” Okay, when you say what do you do, you’re usually asking that where do you work? A man will normally answer back that way. Now, I know many times women are more relational, a lot more relational than men, and they’ll know about each other’s children and all the social things there. But work is such a part of what we do. It defines a purpose, and when we retire and we’re no longer working, it’s great in the beginning, but after months and months and months of this, you know, I hear depression starts to come about in many of these retirement communities. Have you heard that too?
Jeff:
Yeah. It’s a real issue. And you did say something interesting. Women tend to be better at retirement than men. Usually, they’ve had more of a dynamic relationship between family and community and work in their life. Not all the time, but men usually have been working full time for a very long time. And so when retirement comes, it feels like jumping off a moving train. You gets skids all over your face. People aren’t really used to figuring out what this kind of life looks like. So, I think one of the big questions that I ask men is really around identity. Who are you? Because it’s a painful process to lay down that identity of when everybody was calling you. You’re needed and to say, I’m going to let go of that so I can take up, what God is calling me to in this next season. So it is challenging. Work, and I talked about this in the book, should not be the source of our identity, but an expression of our identity.
Bob:
Hey, I like that.
Jeff:
Yeah. The source of out identity is we are beloved. We are loved by God, his daughters and his sons. This is the source. This is the fountain of our identity, but that can be expressed in many different contexts, including work contexts.
Bob:
I was writing that down – source – it should not be a source or it should be a source?
Jeff:
Let’s see. Our work is not the source of our identity. It’s an expression of our identity.
Bob:
It’s an expression of our.
Jeff:
Our identity is who God calls us. We are his. Like that is the very source of our identity. But it expresses who we are in very unique ways. Whether you’re a craftsmen or whether you’re a nurse or whatever it might be, just know, you’re good at this. This is something that really God has given to you for the sake of your neighbor and it can be a good expression of your identity for the wellbeing of others. So really, this is what I was talking about earlier. We need to heal some of those motivations as we enter back into this idea of what would it look like for me to work in my sixties or even my seventies.
Bob:
So I can’t believe we’re already at the fifth point now, and that’s about stewardship during retirement. What do you mean by stewardship during retirement? But I do see how that would be the point number five. I guess it’s putting all this together.
Jeff:
Yeah. So here is one idea for stewardship. Oftentimes, we talk about that in terms of money, which we should because there’s a lot in the Bible about God owning everything, right? Including money and the cattle on a thousand hills, right?
Bob:
Right.
Jeff:
God owns us. He has bought with his blood at a price. You know, we remember this in Lent and at Easter. And so as we think about stewardship, we have to think about what does God entrusted to us for the wellbeing of others. And that again, maybe money, but it could be skills. It could be networks, right? It could be ideas, it could be wisdom. We really have to think, if you’re listening to this, and you know, I have this thing in my hand that I feel like I have to give to somebody else that’s a stewardship longing, right? Again, I get that might be money, you know. But that could be, I’m going to take my grandkids on this weekend. I always thought, because I want to share that one time of pain and restoration that I think could be a blessing to my kids as they think about marriage relationship one day, for example. So stewardship is the big category of everything that God has given to us as a gift that we’re called to steward on behalf of others.
Bob:
Amen. Well, Jeff, that’s the five points that we’ve already gone through. I can’t believe it. It went fast. It really went fast. But I wanted to leave our listeners with four thought provoking questions before we’re done today talking about what’s God’s purpose for your life during retirement. So, think about that first one. It’s the title of today. What is God’s purpose for your life during retirement? Maybe you’re not retired yet. So, this question is for those that are retired and those that are about to retire. And the second one is, are you open to God calling you to a higher purpose during retirement during that time? The third one is, have you thought about how to incorporate a Sabbath rest into your retirement to seek God’s will? Maybe you’ve been retired for several years, but you’ve really never taken what we call a Sabbath rest, a sabbatical, just to seek God’s will. God, what would you have me do going forward? And then the fourth question is a challenging question. Will you commit to a time in the next 30 days to contemplate these calling questions for your own journey? Jeff, any last comments that you would like to share before we’re done with today’s podcast?
Jeff:
Yeah, I think the last thing I would say is to leave us with a Bible verse and an image of what I think of beautiful, fruitful life looks like. It’s from Psalm 92 and it says, “The righteous flourish like the palm tree and grow like a cedar in Lebanon. They are planted in the house of the Lord. They flourish in the courts of our God. They still bear fruit in old age. They are ever full of sap and green.” I think that is a beautiful vision as I think about, of course of my life, to my last day, I desire to bear fruit and to ever be full of sap and green.
Bob:
Amen. Amen. That is a beautiful scripture. We’ll end on that. I do want to say this to all of you that are listening to the podcast. If you would like to see these questions written down, we always post these on our website. It’s Christianfinancialpodcast.com. You’ll see all those questions there, and I want to help you find your purpose and if you want to talk to another brother in the Lord, I want to come beside you and pray with you and help you find that purpose because retirement can be such wonderful years of helping others and being there for your grandkids if you have grandkids. That can be the most wonderful time of your entire life. I don’t want you entering into a depressive state, but I want you to enter into a state of victory in Christ Jesus. Amen, brother.
Jeff:
Amen. Thanks for having me.
[CONCLUSION]
That’s all for now. We invite you to listen to all of our past episodes covering many financial topics from a Christian Perspective. To make sure you don’t miss any of Bob’s upcoming episodes you can subscribe to Christian Financial Perspectives on iTunes, Google Play Music, Spotify, or Stitcher. To learn more about integrating your faith with your finances, visit ciswealth.com or call 830-609-6986.
[DISCLOSURES]
Comments from today’s show are for informational purposes only and not to be considered investment advice or recommendations to buy or sell any company that may have been mentioned or discussed. The opinions expressed are solely those of the host, Bob Barber and his guests. Bob does not provide tax advice and encourages you to seek guidance from a tax professional. Investment advisory services offered through Christian Investment Advisors Inc. DBA Christian Financial Advisors, a registered investment advisor.
26 min

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