Church and Main

By Dennis SandersSociety & Culture Religion & Spirituality Christianity

Church and Main episodes

October 30Evangelicals: Beyond the 81 Percent with Bonnie Kristian | Episode 304
Fifty years ago, the wider culture looked at American evangelicals with curiosity. Today it often looks with contempt. Is that picture fair, and is there more to the story than a single statistic?
Dennis Sanders talks with Bonnie Kristian, author of In Defense of Evangelicalism. She is a former deputy editor at Christianity Today and a fellow at Defense Priorities. She grew up on Awana and now worships in an Anglican church after years in a Mennonite one.
Bonnie argues that the question is not whether evangelicalism has faults, but whether the accusations against it are fair and coherent. Together they look at how evangelicalism became so tied to politics, what the famous 81 percent number leaves out, and why the media rarely covers “Joe in the pew.”
In this episode:
Why defend evangelicalism now
What the 81 percent statistic gets wrong, and what it still means
Why “white” so often comes before “evangelical”
Billy Graham’s regrets on race
A message for Mainline Protestants, from the Precious Moments chapel to why tackiness is not a sin
Links
In Defense of Evangelicalism by Bonnie Kristian
Bonnie's website
Bonnie's Substack
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53 min
October 23Can the Midterms Revive Mainline Protestantism? with Daniel K. Williams | Episode 303
Four white mainline Protestant pastors are running for Congress this year. A generation ago, that would have been hard to imagine. Could it spark a revival for a tradition many have written off?
In this episode of Church and Main, Dennis Sanders talks with Daniel K. Williams, a historian of American religion and politics at Ashland University in Ohio.
The conversation stems from Williams’ Substack article, where he argues that the midterms could be “an important first step in rehabilitating the cultural image of mainline Protestantism for a younger generation of progressives.” Dennis and Williams look at why white mainline pastors have mostly stayed out of electoral politics, why that may be changing now, and what it could mean for the pews.
In This Episode:
[10:03] Why religious traditions rarely disappear and instead reinvent themselves, and why mainline decline isn’t a straight line to collapse
[16:48] Why pastors stayed out of office: congregations that are politically divided, and a “prophetic voice” tradition wary of getting cozy with power
[21:26] What changed: the Trump era, the denominational splits of the 2010s, and a Democratic Party more open to faith
[28:17] Whether denominations will sort politically the way the parties have, and the challenge of attracting younger members
[33:10] Adam Hamilton and the surprising idea of a progressive mainline megachurch
[36:04] Which Pew political groups the mainline might be uniquely poised to welcome, from loyal liberals to Republicans uneasy with the party’s direction
[40:08] How prominent candidates change the public image of a tradition, with Jimmy Carter and J.D. Vance as examples, and the possible return of a vocal religious left
[45:38] What white mainline pastors can learn from the Black church about preaching prophetically while doing the work of governing, including Raphael Warnock and John Lewis
Links
Daniel K. Williams’ Substack article on the midterms and the mainline
Faith leaders on the ballot: 12 races to watch from Religion News Service
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Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].
55 min
October 16Is the Bible a Rule Book or a Love Letter? with Richard Beck | Episode 302
Dennis talks with psychologist Richard Beck about his latest book, The Book of Love. Richard is a professor of psychology at Abilene Christian University and a Senior Fellow of the Saunders Center for Joy and Human Flourishing. The book weaves Richard’s own faith journey together with the Hebrew Scriptures, the Gospels, and the early church. The conversation asks what it looks like to read Scripture through the lens of love, and why that is so hard when anxiety about “getting it wrong” sits underneath so many biblical arguments. Richard writes for both conservatives and progressives, so listeners on either side will probably hear something they like and something they don’t.

In This Episode:
Grace for bad readers of Scripture (14:46). We expect to reach heaven as sinners, so why would God be graceless toward our biblical misinterpretations? Dennis and Richard discuss extending grace to those who read differently, on both sides.
The cross as a theophany of love (18:50). Richard argues against penal substitutionary atonement while pushing back on a progressive view that skips over the cross. The cross, he says, delivers two messages at once, judgment on human sin and love from the foundation of the world, and the parable of the prodigal son holds both.
Prophetic self-criticism (30:32). Israel put its own worst failures into Scripture. Richard says that courage is stunning, and wonders where we have lost it, since most prophetic speech is aimed at God’s own people.
Acts 10 and Acts 15 (34:59). Richard connects Peter’s vision and the Jerusalem council to his first book, Unclean, and to the psychology of purity and disgust. He draws on the Wesleyan quadrilateral to show how experience can shape how we read, noting that at the council “the stories won that day.”
Fruits of the Spirit as coordinates (49:18). Discernment about where God is at work is not vague, Richard says, and it cuts both ways. He points to Paul’s call to let judgment begin with the house of God and says, “You are the one being evaluated here. Stop evaluating other people.”
The current moment (53:45). Richard offers a critique for each side of the political aisle. For the Christian right, he points to divine solidarity with the oppressed, the teachings of Jesus, and pluralism as a sign of the kingdom. For the progressive side, he points to the risks of reducing Scripture to social justice and the need for forgiveness, reconciliation, and hope.
Links
The Book of Love by Richard Beck
Richard’s Substack, Experimental Theology
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Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].
1 hr 10 min
October 09Jesus Is Lord. Caesar Is Not. with Landon Whitsitt | Episode 301
Saying “Jesus is Lord” can sound like a harmless phrase, but in the Roman Empire, where Caesar was Lord, it was a radical claim. Today, the claim still has rivals, and political and cultural tribes all want our allegiance.
Dennis talks with Presbyterian pastor Landon Whitsitt about his book Divided Allegiance. Landon is the pastor of Westminster Presbyterian Church in Oklahoma City and a former vice moderator of the 219th General Assembly of the PC(USA). He is also the author of Make-Believe, Zombie Jesus, The Descending God, Afraid of Everything, Open Source Church, and Theology of Art.
The conversation looks at why we keep dividing our loyalty between God and other powers, and what faithfulness looks like when every side wants to claim Jesus. Landon pairs the prophet Micah with the Barmen Declaration, the confession written against the Nazi regime. His point is that this struggle is not new to our moment. It is what the people of God have always faced.
In this episode:
The biblical context of Micah and its relevance today
The significance of the Barman Declaration in Christian ethics
The challenge of divided loyalties in contemporary faith
The role of confession and repentance in spiritual integrity
The influence of Reformed theology on understanding God's sovereignty
The church's prophetic role in social justice and injustice
The impact of Christian nationalism on faith and allegiance
Practical steps for pastors and congregations to remain faithful
Resources:
Landon’s Substack: landonwhitsitt.substack.com/
Landon’s website: LandonWhitsitt.com
Westminster Presbyterian Church, Oklahoma City (sermons): wpcokc.org
Divided Allegiance by Landon Whitsitt

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Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].
1 hr 6 min
October 02A Very Human God with Kenneth Tanner | Episode 300
In John 14, Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus gives him a pained look and answers, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." If we want to know who God is, we look to Jesus, and when we do, we find a vulnerable God.
Pastor and theologian Kenneth Tanner joins Dennis to talk about his new book, Vulnerable God: How Jesus Upends Our Assumptions About God and Shows Us How to Be Human. Tanner argues that Jesus doesn't blend our ideas of God with our ideas of humanity. Instead, Jesus interrogates both. In his words, "Jesus is the one who shows us what power even is." That means power looks like silence in the womb, helplessness in a manger, and surrender on a cross, not coercion or force.
In this episode:
Tanner's journey from a Pentecostal upbringing in Orlando through the charismatic movement to a liturgical church, the Book of Common Prayer, and weekly Eucharist
Why the Word who spoke the cosmos into being accepts silence in the womb
A fresh look at the three temptations in the wilderness as a test about power
What the Black church's witness teaches about a God who is with us in suffering
Resisting cynicism and false stories about God and ourselves, especially on social media
Resources:
Substack - https://kennethtanner.substack.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kenntanner/
Vulnerable God Book

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Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].
1 hr 10 min
September 25 We're All Prosperity Preachers Now with Andrew Root | Episode 299
What if the church's obsession with growth is just modern-day Baal worship? Andrew Root returns to the podcast to discuss his new book Baal and the Gods of More: Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry (Baker Academic). Root — Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary — unpacks how the pressure to grow (whether through innovation or identity affirmation) mirrors ancient Israel's turn to fertility gods, and what it might mean instead to trust a God who meets us in weakness rather than escalation.
In This Episode
[0:24] Intro — Facebook-as-salvation in the 2000s, LGBTQ inclusion in mainline churches, and Flint, Michigan as parallel stories of hoping something will bring back “the good old days”
[4:44] What led Root to write the book — a recurring church-growth conversation and an offhand comment about “fertility gods” that became the whole project
[7:15] Baal as a fertility god, and how capital (financial, social, cultural) functions the same way for us today
[9:27] The real question underneath growth anxiety — do we actually trust God?
[9:53] Golden-era memory in mainline Protestantism (and Flint) as a parallel to Israel longing for Solomon’s era
[15:37] The two camps inside every denomination — techno-optimists and identitarians — and why Root thinks both run on the same escalatory, capitalist logic
[23:36] “We’re all prosperity preachers now” — willing to take on poverty now only to cash out later
[31:35] Why Protestants have neglected Mary, and Luther’s reading of her as the true prophet
[34:16] Jezebel reframed — not a sexual temptress but “the great economist” importing growth theory into Israel
[38:12] The Magnificat as confession, not just judgment on others
[41:09] A widower’s story on a Viking cruise — what he was actually grateful for from his church
[45:35] Root’s word to pastors and small congregations dealing with anxiety about decline
[50:21] Where to find Andrew Root’s work — andrewroot.org

Resources
Andrew Root's website: andrewroot.org
Book: Baal and the Gods of More — Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry (Baker Academic)
Ministry in a Secular Age Podcast: https://www.andrewroot.org/podcast/

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Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].

54 min
September 18Democracy As Moral Practice with Jason Edwards | Episode 298
We tend to think of democracy in terms of institutions and procedures — voting, the Supreme Court, Congress. But what if it actually depends on something less visible: the everyday virtues that make shared life with people we didn't choose possible at all?
Dennis talks with Jason Edwards, senior pastor of Second Baptist Church in Liberty, Missouri, about his Baptist News Global essay on democracy as a moral practice, sparked by a well-known 2008 moment when Senator John McCain corrected a supporter's false claim about Barack Obama. The conversation moves from there into how churches form — or fail to form — people capable of living alongside those they disagree with, including a candid look at emotional health as part of discipleship.
They also touch on Jason's forthcoming book, At Home with God: How the Cross Transforms Us, built around the image of a house with many windows — each theory of the atonement offering a true but partial glimpse of something too vast to fully see.
In this episode:
Why Jason calls democracy "a moral practice" rather than just a system
The McCain moment that shaped his thinking
How churches can cultivate — or undermine — emotional maturity
A preview of At Home with God and its "house with many windows" approach to atonement
Links:
Jason's essay, "Democracy as a moral practice, not just a system" (Baptist News Global)
Jason G. Edwards on Substack
At Home with God: How the Cross Transforms Us (IVP, November 2026)
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Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].
1 hr 8 min
September 11The Other Trump Derangement Syndrome with Corey Nathan | Episode 297
We've all heard of Trump Derangement Syndrome — the caricature of the uber-progressive who can't stop talking about the president. But what about the opposite version? The diehard loyalist who dismisses any criticism of Trump as irrational, even when it comes from people who share their faith?
This week, Corey Nathan returns to talk about his recent essay in The Dispatch titled "Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?" Corey digs into what it looks like when people you love — friends, pastors, family — become what Corey calls "morally and epistemically unavailable." Drawing on an Al-Anon phrase that anchors his essay, "didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it," Corey wrestles with how far that logic should go when it comes to loved ones who've become unwavering Trump loyalists.
Links:
Corey's essay in The Dispatch: "Does Trump Derangement Syndrome Have a Cure?"
Corey's podcast: politicsandreligion.us
Episode 78: Finding God in the Mundane with Corey Nathan
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Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Church and Main on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, and visit churchandmain.org or churchandmain.substack.com to read more and support the show. Send an email to [email protected].
1 hr 9 min
September 04 Living the Jesus Way in a Polarized Age with Graham Joseph Hill | Episode 296
Dennis talks with Australian theologian Graham Joseph Hill about his new book, Ten Movements of the Jesus Way: Shifting from Worldly Self-Interest to Radical Discipleship. They discuss Graham's journey from a legalistic upbringing to planting his first church at 19, the danger of the "sovereign self," and moving past Jesus-as-slogan or Jesus-as-guru toward a third way rooted in the Gospels. Graham shares small, everyday practices of discipleship from his own church community and reflects on grace, imperfect community, and what the Jesus way offers a polarized culture.
Shownotes:
Ten Movements of the Jesus Way (Book)
Graham Joseph Hill’s website
Graham Joseph Hill Podcast
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1 hr 5 min
August 07 The Nicene Creed Is Not a Yard Sign with Teer Hardy | Episode 295
When JD Vance accused "in this house we believe" yard signs of butchering the Nicene Creed, Methodist pastor Teer Hardy started wondering what creeds are actually for. That question turned into an essay — and this conversation.
Teer Hardy, pastor of Trinity United Methodist Church in Alexandria, Virginia, and co-host of the Crackers and Grape Juice podcast, returns to discuss his piece "Creeds Are Not Yard Signs."
Shownotes:
The Creeds Are Not Yard Signs
The Body of Christ in a Polarized Culture with Teer Hardy | Episode 222

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48 min

About Church and Main

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Church and Main is a podcast at the intersection of faith and modern life. Join Pastor Dennis Sanders as he shares the stories of faith interacting with the ever-changing world of the 21st century.