Communication leadership takes many forms, each requiring its own set of skills and vision. At its core, it involves leading a communication team—setting direction, fostering talent, and ensuring excellence in execution. On a broader scale, communication leaders play a critical role in guiding the entire organization’s messaging, advising executives, and shaping the narrative both internally and externally. Beyond the organization, communication professionals often step into industry leadership, setting standards, sharing best practices, and elevating the profession as a whole. Whether managing teams, advising the C-suite, or championing industry progress, communication leaders are essential in building trust, driving alignment, and advancing both organizational and professional goals.
Four Fellows of the International Association of Business Communicators (IABC) discussed the qualities of communication leadership during the most recent Circle of Fellows panel. During the hourlong conversation, you’ll discover how communication experts drive alignment, build trust, and shape culture from the inside out. You’ll gain practical strategies and fresh insights from industry leaders, equipping you to influence decisions at the highest levels and make a measurable impact on your organization’s success.
Russell Grossman, DipPR, ABC, FRSA, FCIPR, FCIM, IABC Fellow, has been a communications practitioner for nearly 40 years and a UK Senior Civil Servant since 2006. He recently stepped down from his position as the Director of Communications at the UK Rail Regulator, the Office of Rail and Road, and head of the Government Communication Service (GCS) internal communications profession. He’s a non-executive director of the “Engage for Success ” movement, which aims to advance employee engagement, and a sponsor for both the GCS Fast Stream and GCS Talent. Russell and his long-suffering wife of 38 years are blessed with four children (one of whom also works within GCS) and five grandchildren.
Sue Heuman, ABC, MC, IABC Fellow, based in Edmonton, Canada, is an award-winning, accredited authority on organizational communications with more than 40 years of experience. Since co-founding Focus Communications in 2002, Sue has worked with clients to define, understand, and achieve their communications objectives. Sue is a highly sought-after executive advisor, specializing in leading communication audits and strategies for clients across all three sectors. Much of her practice involves a strategic review of the communications function within an organization, analyzing channels and audiences. She creates strategic communication plans and provides expertise to enable their execution. Sue has been a member of the International Association of Business Communicators (IABC) since 1984, which enables her to both stay current with and contribute to the field of communications practices. In 2016, Sue received the prestigious Rae Hamlin Award from IABC in recognition of her work to promote Global Standards for communication. She was also named 2016 IABC Edmonton Chapter Communicator of the Year. In 2018, IABC named Sue a Master Communicator, the Association’s highest honor in Canada. Sue earned the IABC Fellow designation in 2022.
Mike Klein is a communication leader with experience spanning corporate, political, and NGO communication, focusing on internal communication and the social dynamics of organizations and societies. Mike is the founder of #WeLeadComms, the world’s largest recognition program for communication leaders, a former IABC EMENA Regional Chair, and the author of “From Lincoln to LinkedIn”, a guide to understanding and influencing social communication in enterprises and communities. He is based in Reykjavik, Iceland, and has lived in seven countries. He has driven communication programs in major organizations, including Shell, Maersk, and Cargill, and holds an MBA from the London Business School.
Robin McCasland, IABC Fellow, SCMP, is Senior Director of Corporate Communications for Health Care Service Corporation (HCSC). She leads the company’s communications team and the employee listening program, demonstrating to senior leaders how employee and executive communication add value to the business’s bottom line. Previously, Robin excelled in leadership roles in communication for Texas Instruments, Dell, Tenet Healthcare, and Burlington Northern Santa Fe. She has also worked for large and boutique HR consulting firms, leading major communication initiatives for various well-known companies. Robin is a past IABC chairman and has served in numerous association leadership roles for over 30 years. She was honored in 2023 and 2021 by Ragan/PR Daily as one of the Top Women Leaders in Communication. She’s also received IABC Southern Region and IABC Dallas Communicator of the Year honors. Robin is a graduate of The University of Texas at Austin and a Leadership Texas alumnus. Her own podcast, Torpid Liver (and Other Symptoms of Poor Communication), features guest speakers addressing timely topics to help communication professionals become more influential, strategic advisors and leaders. She resides in Dallas, Texas, with her husband, Mitch, and their canine kids, Tank and Petunia.
Shel Holtz: [00:00:00] Well, hi everybody and welcome to episode one 18 of Circle of Fellows. I’m she Holtz. I am an IABC fellow. I am also Senior Director of Communication at Webco in San Francisco, and I am joined today by four of my colleagues in the, uh, college of Fellows at IABC, uh, to talk about leadership, uh, in the communication profession, which, uh, is one of those topics that’s both a, a mile deep and a mile wide and cover a lot of ground here.
Uh, so, uh, I’m gonna ask each of our participants today to introduce themselves, uh, going walk wise as I see you on the screen. Um, Mike, uh, we’ll start with you and welcome to your first, uh, livestream Circle of Fellows, one of the 2025 class. [00:01:00]
Mike Klein: Thank you very much. She And indeed, I am a newly minted IABC fellow.
Um, I am based in Revic Iceland, where I have a practice mainly focused on internal and nonprofit communication. Um, used to do political campaigns in the States before I went an internal, um, back in the nineties, um, working mainly across the Atlantic with different clients and groups there. And I’m also the editor in chief of Strategic Magazine, which can be found at Strategic Global.
Shel Holtz: Great. Thanks, Mike. Uh, Sue, you’re up next.
Sue Heuman: Hi everybody. Good to see you all. Just to underscores the I in IEBC with the crowd that’s here today, Bruce. From all over the place, Sue Human from, uh, Edmonton, Canada. I am a co-owner of a little boutique, uh, communication agency for the past 23 years. Uh, we do work [00:02:00] mostly in, uh, all three sectors, but mostly in, um, websites, strategic communication.
Um, we organize a lot of conferences too, which is just a, an interesting side gig. Um, but ha, happy to be here and especially with the esteemed group.
Shel Holtz: Thanks, Sue. Uh, Robin. Hi. Good to see you. Hello.
Robin McCasland: Hi everybody. Uh, I’m Robin McCaslin. I’m senior director of Communications for Healthcare Service Corporation.
We are the largest customer owned health insurer in the United States. We now have more than 26 million members across the country. Um, and in addition to our, uh, typical health products, we also, uh, are in the Medicare and Medicaid space. We offer through some of our subsidiaries and other entities, life insurance, dental, vision, you name it.
So we are got the health space covered and I am in Dallas, Texas, USA.
Shel Holtz: Great. And that leaves Russell.
Russell Grossman: Hey there. Well, uh, so I’m Russell Grossman. Uh, [00:03:00] I’m in London. That’s London, England. Uh, and I’m the director of communications at the UK Rail Regulator. I’m also director of the Government Communication Service.
And in fact, I’ve just also stepped down, uh, after 12 years as the head of profession for internal communications across the UK government. Um, never a dull moment here in, uh, government as you would expect from, uh, any government. But my specializations, I suppose, uh, tend to be towards a topic today, communications, leadership, internal communications, and organization development.
Shel Holtz: Excellent. So I do want to, uh, let those of you who are watching, uh, in real time, and I can see that there are some. Some of you out there that you are invited and, uh, encouraged to participate in this conversation. There is a field where you can enter a question or a comment or an observation, uh, and I’ll be able to display that on the screen and the panel will be able to weigh in on it.
[00:04:00] Uh, always, uh, fun component of. These conversations is, is bringing in the folks who are watching. Uh, so let’s start this conversation from a, a, a, the, the 40,000 foot perspective. Uh, when we talk about leading communication, this could be the chief communication officer leading the entire communication function in an organization.
It can also be a manager who has two people reporting to them and multiple layers above them. Part of a larger organization, uh, handling communication in a function. It could be leadership at an agency. Uh, you could be leading your own consultancy as, uh, some of you are, uh, and as I did for 21 years. Uh, but, um, all of these require certain.
Traits, uh, certain characteristics for people who are aspiring to leadership [00:05:00] in communication. What traits should they be nurturing, uh, and, and building?
Robin McCasland: Oh, uh, start with emotional intelligence. If, if that’s not something that comes naturally to you, cultivating that, um, being able to demonstrate authenticity, a sense of humility, um, all of those things will help, um, will help the people who report to you or the people who are paying attention to you to feel a sense that you are honest, that you sincerely care, um, and that you have their best interest in mind.
Sue Heuman: Yeah, that’s an interesting point, Robin. I feel like there’s two sides to this question. One is the people leadership, which you’ve touched on, but then there’s also the communication practice leadership where you’re staying abreast of the latest, uh, innovations in technology and practice. And you are helping to guide your team toward being their [00:06:00] very best every day.
So I feel like there’s two sides to this question. Perhaps agree. I say
Mike Klein: there are three sides.
Russell Grossman: Uh, I would say one of the interesting things about communications, I think is that. It’s a discipline or, or a practice that most people, even if they’re not in the discipline or practice, think they know a lot about.
Uh, and in some cases that is true and in other cases it’s not. But just picking up on Robin’s humility point, I think it is important for people aspiring to communications leadership to be able to spot whether others in their organization who are non communications practitioners actually know a lot about the practice.
And if that’s the case, to respect that and to have the good grace, uh, to, to, to, to look at that, uh, particularly, uh, regard that as important if you’re looking, uh, with leaders, many leaders achieve their leadership, be in, in an organization because they are good communicators. And if they’re good communicators, they probably [00:07:00] know something innately or otherwise about communications.
So that humility point and good grace, I think is really important in terms of the kind of skillset that you should be aspiring to.
Mike Klein: Mike. Any thoughts? I think there’s actually three elements to it. One is, you know, the extent to which we can develop ourselves as leaders in a, in, in a corporate context. You know, leading a function, interacting with leaders, those relationship piece. But there’s also a separate piece around what I call communicational leadership, which really focuses on maximizing the value and impact that we can deliver uniquely as communication professions.
And, you know, we can talk about that in some length, like later in the conversation, but I think there’s, you know, a clear distinction be made about, about leadership within the hierarchical context and then the leadership role that we [00:08:00] have through the work that we do.
Russell Grossman: I’ve always seen communications leadership as pointing it in kind of four directions.
Um, you’re obviously, you know, if you have a team, you’re obviously leading that team. Um, if you are counseling seniors, then you are leading them in the practice. Uh, if you are part of an organization like A A, B, C, when you have a leadership out to the profession. And then I think for peers who are non communications practitioners, there is a leadership role there, which allows them to understand the value of communications, uh, which is a leadership role that we often need to pedal.
I would say, um, in order that people do understand that the value of our practice, um, has, has value.
Robin McCasland: And I had another thought related to what you were talking about, Russell, which is. Many people who are not in our profession, but many people are promoted into roles in their organizations because of their technical [00:09:00] skill or what engineering, whatever it might be that they do.
But if they don’t have the other skills, then that be, can become a weakness for them. Um, and it, I’ve been talking about this with my own leadership and some others that I work with in my own organization and my team where there’s an opportunity to help that because communication in my estimation, and there are a lot of research studies and white papers and whatever, and it’s like, it’s so critical to ultimately how successful you can be.
Um, and so I just, I’ve seen it happen and I’m sure you all have as well, where somebody got promoted ’cause they were brilliant in one area, but when it came to communication, they were not, it was not, it did not come innately. They were introverted maybe, or maybe they’re just like, that’s not part of my role, that’s not why I was promoted.
And it’s like, oh, but it is part of your role now. And I think that’s something that they need to develop.
Shel Holtz: Well, as an interesting point, Robin, I’ve long wondered about the, the issue of, [00:10:00] of managers as communicators in organizations, as, as part of the process. Uh, I mean, I think they’re vitally important, but most managers were promoted based on their achievements as individual contributors.
They don’t necessarily have management skills, uh, which would include communication, which makes it a challenge to communicate consistently, uh, through managers. So, so I’m, I’m, I’m wondering how y’all think about the notion that being a communication leader means taking some accountability, some responsibility for the cultivation of, of managers, or a culture of managing in an organization.
Russell Grossman: I think that’s spot on shell. Uh, I think one of the things that we ought to be doing in communications leadership is understanding where individual managers in the organization are or, or are not [00:11:00] in their own communications leadership. The further up the, the, the, uh, the management entry you go, uh, the more likely it is that you need to be a good communicator.
Uh, incidentally, I, I’ve never described myself or people in my practice as communicators. Uh, my own view view is that the communicators are the managers. And as you observe in an organization, those people who have, if you like, being promoted for technical reasons, but not for their managerial ability, spotting those people out and if you like, triaging them, uh, based on the needs of the organization and reaching out to them to see how they can be assisted by you, I think is really quite important.
Yeah, teach ’em those soft
Shel Holtz: skills. Uh, any other thoughts on that from, from anyone? Sure. I mean,
Robin McCasland: no, go ahead, Mike. Go ahead.
Mike Klein: No, you go ahead. Okay. So I’m somebody who’s [00:12:00] always been a bit skeptical about the emphasis placed on the communication role of managers, because I often see, particularly in internal communication circles, a desire to default to management communication, because a lot of people believe that there’s research that says that managers are the preferred source of information.
Now, managers are a critical source of communication, particularly when employees feel insecure about certain things, about their jobs, about their work arrangements, about, you know, what’s going to impact them based on, you know, different agendas that they’re hearing about. But at the same time, I think. As much as it’s important to support managers in becoming more effective at communication, one of the key ways we do that, and it’s not emphasized nearly enough, is the extent to which we try to reduce the communication burden on managers to the absolute [00:13:00] minimum so that they can be used as effectively as possible.
And, you know, the stuff that’s not requiring a manager’s involvement gets shifted to other channels that are better safe for that.
Robin McCasland: That’s a, that’s a key point, Mike. And, and yeah, I understand and, and agree with what you’re saying. We also have looked at, like in my own organization, it’s a pretty large company.
We look at different surveys that are conducted, um, periodically throughout the year, and we look at. The how senior somebody is. So you’re an individual contributor, you’re a manager, you’re a director, you’re a vice president, whatever. We look at all these different things, um, and then we look at employee feedback about where you see a dip, where you see those leaders not buying into something or complaining about something.
And then we see same thing with individual contributors and in the open-end con uh, comments and how they’re responding to questions. It’s like there’s a gap. So you’re right. Maybe part of it is, is that the burden needs [00:14:00] to come off him. On the other hand, there’s still a very strong, uh, belief among rank and file employees that it’s like, I want more from that.
I need more from my supervisor or my leader. I’m not getting that. And it’s not, or it’s not being communicated. News is not being communicated consistently from that leadership level.
Sue Heuman: And so what you all are describing in my view, is really the role of the strategic communication leader within an organization.
You’ve picked up on those little pieces that need work, perhaps in the organization, individuals who need support, um, you know, corporate materials and things that can be used as templates and, and guidelines for them, whether or not you’re going to use the cascade method, which is a much debated, um, and time honored method of communication in an organization.
But all of these tactics in my mind really underscore the role of a pr, uh, strategic communication leader within an organization. [00:15:00] And that’s what we do. We assess the situation, we find the right tools and methods, we support people in leadership. That is the job of our strategic communication leader in my view.
Russell Grossman: go ahead, Rustin. And I was just, I’m just reflecting, uh, on what is the defactor role of that strategic communications leader to point out to the c the C-suite, perhaps managers a little bit further down the organization who could become even better leaders if they were better communicators.
Not necessarily with their teens, but perhaps for the organization, senior spokespeople, for example. Uh, or the way that they may interpret change, um, in transformation programs within their organization. Um, and I, I think one of the things about communications practitioners is we often have, particularly at a morethe level, but not necessarily so, not exclusively.
So we often have the run of the organization to be able to do that rather than if in a sense just, just be stood in our [00:16:00] box. And I think since we’re talking about communications leadership, I think that that proactive. Leadership from communications practitioners into the C-suite, I think is an a value add that we bring, even though we may not be asked for it all the time.
Shel Holtz: Yeah. My, my view on managers as communicators is that they are interpreters. Uh, they understand the situation on the ground where they work, uh, better than anybody else, uh, and are better positioned to explain change, for example, to their employees. How is this gonna affect us in this team? Uh, and they need to be equipped with the resources to help them do that.
Not just the training to help them communicate effectively in general, but the resources to help ’em communicate this. Change. Uh, for example, we have two manager publications that come out of the department where I work. One is monthly, [00:17:00] uh, and it’s called Manager Talking Points. And it starts with three or four bullets saying these are things that we would like you to emphasize with your teams in the month ahead.
Uh, and the other is, uh, is called manager briefing. Uh, they come out as needed and they’re single topic FAQs to help them answer questions that their employees may bring to them around, uh, a given change. Um, and I think. That if we’re going to be asking our managers to service translators or interpreters of messages are, are, are delivered, uh, from the, the top down, we need to be adept at doing that ourselves.
Uh, if you are the manager of, say, the intranet and you have two or three people who report to you, uh, isn’t it just as important that you be good at translating these messages, interpreting what’s coming from above so that people know how it affects them? [00:18:00] Uh, having those soft skills, uh, in, in your toolkit,
Russell Grossman: it’s even more important because actually it’s difficult to be a light unto others if you’re not a light unto your own un your own team.
I think it’s really important. Yeah.
Shel Holtz: By the way, uh, du Martin, whom I met at conference, uh, in, um, Vancouver, uh, in, in June, says, uh, love the idea of manager talking points and employee FAQ sent frequently, not just as is needed or when there’s a crisis. So there’s
Russell Grossman: that. You knew you knew when you’ve met Du Martin.
Shel Holtz: That’s right. No question about that. Um, Sue, I, I, I, I wonder based on some conversation we had had before, uh, about how important it is if you are aspiring to a leadership role to, to speak the language of, of leaders. Uh, you know, I, [00:19:00] since we all come up as individual contributors and what we do is sort of a, a crafty, um.
Uh, occupation. By that I mean we’re engaged in the craft of writing and producing collateral and things like that. Uh, we tend to speak the language of that craft. Um, and, and when promoted, you know, you go into leadership and you talk about hits and, and views and, you know, letting and kerning and what have you, uh, that does not resonate, uh, or inspire a lot of confidence in, in your leadership abilities with, with leaders.
So what do. Communicators need to understand about speaking that language of leadership.
Sue Heuman: Yeah, absolutely. Shell, you know, I started going to IBC World conference, I don’t know, like 25 years ago. And, and even before then, the, the topic of, you know, how do we get a seat at the table? I mean, my goodness, it’s still.
Is discussed today. Um, and the [00:20:00] real answer is demonstrating your value to senior leadership. And then to do that, you need to speak the language of business. So you need to be able to talk about, uh, performance metrics and measurable objectives that actually contribute to the organization, not just to your comms plan outcome, right?
You have to be able to say, this is how we’re gonna move the needle on important issues for the organization. You need to talk about ROI, you need to talk about investment. So using the language of business when you’re in those boardroom meetings or in your correspondence with senior executives really demonstrates that you understand.
What keeps them awake at night and the, how communication is contributing to solving those issues.
Robin McCasland: And the, the thing I would add to that, um, I coach some other organizations that come to me in various ways within the company. ’cause they wanna understand that better. So they’re not people in my own organization necessarily, but what I always remind him is too, is [00:21:00] beyond everything that Sue said, which I agree with wholeheartedly, is leaders are different.
Um, maybe they’re not, but I mean, they’re, they have their own responsibilities and things that they have to deal with on a daily basis. And so when I’m coaching people on how you’re gonna approach this, I’m like, okay, if they tell you, you. Their assistant or what tells you you have 30 minutes, assume you have 15 and you better get to the point out front.
Like, like in our organization, I’ve said this before, we use Axios Media Smart brevity for how we communicate with employees works really well. They’re, they are totally down with it. We’ve been doing it for almost six years. Um, but when you’re presenting it’s the same thing. It’s like, don’t go in shelter.
Your point where it’s like, you know all the stuff and you’re so involved in it and you’re so passionate about it and you’re like, I wanna tell you everything and all the back step to how we got to this recommendation. And it’s like, no, tell me up front what your recommendation is and then gimme the key points about how, why this is gonna matter to a senior leader, how it’s going to impact the organization cost.
All those things that are critical. [00:22:00] And then you have all that detail in the back of your head. So when you only have this few minutes, ’cause you wouldn’t inevitably get cut short. You can answer those questions, but it’s like you have to learn to think differently about how you are when you are in the presence of a senior leader.
Sue Heuman: This is so true, and I can recall a few years ago I was asked by, by, uh, someone in the C-suite who had to make a presentation to their colleagues at the boardroom table, and they were told they could only have six slides. They came to me with like 30 slides and I helped them edit it down to six slides.
Got to a point, the, the manager had all of the detail, to your point, Robin, as as sort of back pocket notes. But when you are presenting to senior leaders, get to the point, get to what’s, what’s in it for me from their perspective. Um, and, and don’t talk a lot about hits and, you know, communication metrics.
Talk about how you’re gonna help them solve their problems.
Russell Grossman: In order to do that and assume, uh, Robin, [00:23:00] absolutely. Right. Of course you need a good insight into what their problems are, and particularly if you are in, say, a technical business, um, one similar to mine, I suppose, uh, which is mostly focused on a kind of engineering and regulation and the like.
You need to understand the language of that business specifically. And the earlier that you can do that, the earlier you can make an impression. Uh, and, uh, it is interesting to see how people do respond much more positively when you talk to them in their own jargon, uh, but obviously in a way that you understand it,
Mike Klein: acknowledge in your own.
Managing your own onboarding is absolutely critical in that, in that type of situation, because no one’s necessarily going to teach you that lingo. And particularly if you’re coming in from another organization, you may be very well trained in standard business terminology or, you know, standard KPIs or standard issues.
But if you’re moving into something [00:24:00] that’s, you know, for example, rail regulation as, as Russell’s been involved with, you’ve gotta be able to learn those specifics quickly and you can’t necessarily expect the person above you to train you in all.
Shel Holtz: Yeah. Although, you know, with the, the, the coaching trend in management, uh, I think there’s an increasing expectation that a manager will do that.
Uh, but, uh, two, two quick thoughts. One, uh, and this. I, I was glad to hear you say this, Sue. Uh, I was just listening to a podcast, uh, on my drive home yesterday, uh, in which Christopher s Penn, I don’t know if, uh, you all know Chris Penn, uh, just sort of casually mentioned, uh, ROI and, and made the point that if you’re talking about ROI, you’re talking about money, uh, don’t use that term if you’re not talking about money.
And I think a lot of, uh, communicators tend to use it very generically as this is the benefit that is accrued as a [00:25:00] result of what we have done. This is the ROI of our campaign. And if you say that at a board table, uh, when you leave, uh, they’re gonna go, he doesn’t know what ROI is. Right? Is there a very specific accounting formula for, for ROI, uh, and uh.
The other thought was just a, a quick story that I, I feel compelled to share, uh, based on the, the, the conversation about CEOs and what they want to talk about. I did have a CEO once where, uh, and this was many, many years ago, um, but it was a Fortune 400 company. And I took in the, the tissues for the design of the annual report that year.
Uh, and what we were looking for was his, uh, buy-in into the theme, uh, and the concept, uh, that was going to anchor everything that we were going to write in the annual report. And he put on his reading glasses and he looked at it very carefully. I was sitting there with the designer next to me and he looked [00:26:00] up and he said, there’s too much space between the lines.
This, this was the CEO who actually did care about the wedding. Uh, there, there was one.
Sue Heuman: I, uh, I actually had somebody try and re read Lauren Ipsum once, uh, presented a concept. So, yeah. What language is this? Um, it’s not,
Robin McCasland: yeah, we, I worked with the CEO once a long time ago. Well, when, that long ago. Uh, where, um, and he literally said this, when communication was written for him, um, you know, we would do, you know, single space, da da da, da da.
And he’d go in and he’d be like, I don’t know who’s writing this, but there needs to be two spaces between sentences. And we politely tried to explain that. That ended a long time ago. And he goes, no, no, no. I was in the AV club in high school and I, and I learned about journalism too, and I know, and we were just like, oh my God.
So we literally, I love that word. Literally, we sent out his messages with two spaces. We didn’t do it in anything [00:27:00] else, but that’s what he wanted. And we could not convince him otherwise. So.
Shel Holtz: That’s amazing. And,
Russell Grossman: and that also points to the issue. We, we talked quite rightly about, you know, understanding the language of your business and the language of business, but also if you are canceling senior leaders, CEO, the managing director, you need to know what also is bugging them at the, at the minor level, whether it’s the letting on the paper, whether it’s the font, whether it’s the color.
I once worked for a gentleman, uh, I wouldn’t say who it was, but he was a very senior person, uh, who insisted on a two and a half inch margin on the left hand side of all scripts that were presented to him so he could put what were called in the business inky blues together. And that’s how it was, and that’s what he wanted.
The point here being that if you, although these may seem minor irritants, if you don’t overcome those, you’ll never get to the bigger stuff that you want to cancel or advise on, because they will always be irritated by something that happens to be in their little [00:28:00] set of foils.
Shel Holtz: Important to get to know them and what their preferences are, uh, in, in terms of being strategic.
Uh, how important is it to accommodate what you know about executive biases and preferences, uh, versus being bold and, and going in with what you know will work as you’re aspiring to that seat at the table, which is a whole other conversation that we can have, uh, maybe we will. Uh, but if that, if that is the aspiration, uh, how, how do you treat your, your, your proposals, your strategic plans, uh, for the business?
Sue Heuman: I like to, uh, I like to present my very best work. Um, and then see if. It matches with the expectations of the leader. If the leader has something specific in mind, I try and understand why, what outcome are we [00:29:00] trying to achieve with that particular, whether it’s a tool, whether it’s a, a color of the rainbow, God only knows what is it you’re trying to achieve.
And then see if we can either compromise or at least have that person hear me. Um, you know, at the end of the day, it’s their money, honey. So, um, you know, if they really want you to do something, you know, and, and you’re, it’s not the best practice from your view and you’ve made your case, then you just kind of have to, you know, do it.
But I feel like you have to at least be heard, uh, and present things in a way that they will hear you and respect your expertise and give it full consideration before they make a decision
Robin McCasland: and everything aligned with the business direction and the prior, like everything you do. 99% of the time is tied to what the company is trying to achieve.
What’s the, what’s the business trying to achieve? What is this division trying to achieve? And showing that your communication is focused on those [00:30:00] opportunities to help support whatever it is they’re trying to achieve. Any, I won’t say anything else. There are times when you’re doing other things, but most of the time it’s aligned with what the business wants to achieve and that usually gets their attention.
Russell Grossman: I think this is a fundamental point. Um, actually, so the first rule of communications is to listen and, uh. Then to apply and through that to influence. And ultimately where I think you want to get to here is to influence your C-suite or your managing director or whoever it is, in what you believe is right, but also recognize from what I was also said earlier and the bit about good grace, that they may have some ideas which are possibly worth incorporating as well.
And so particularly if I go into a room and I have the opportunity to listen first rather than talk, I’ll always do that. ’cause it allows you to tailor your comments, remarks, approach to the audience, and through that come, come [00:31:00] at it to with them as a partnership. Uh, and through that then influence their influence, that partnership through your own ideas, what you believe is right, et cetera.
Uh, but I, I think it, it’s a, it is a fundamental issue in strategic communications that I don’t believe that we should go in and, uh, insist on an idea just because we think ours is the only idea.
Robin McCasland: I’ll add one thing of it, while Shell was saying was asking about it, but if you’re asked, so you’re doing what you’re doing right and you’re sharing what you’re sharing, um, and I’m sure you’ve all had these opportunities as well.
If somebody says, well, what about this? I have some off the wall. And it’s like, you have an idea. That’s when you speak up with that, you know, it’s not that you don’t have other opportunities, but it’s like they just opened the door for you. And if you have that idea you wanna push that you didn’t think would fly before, and it’s well articulated and again aligned with business, but maybe it’s a little atypical for what you would typically do, that’s the time to do it.
They’re [00:32:00] asking you, they’re inviting you for that feedback. Generally. I have found that’s a good time to do that.
Mike Klein: Well, there, there’s, there’s another way to go about it, particularly if you don’t have a lot of face time or conversation with, with the leader or with the leadership group. What I use sometimes, and I’ve, I’ve often had decent success with this.
Is draft something or prepare something from two different angles, angle one being what you think the leader will accept, what you think, you know, where you think their, um, same threshold is if you will, um, their comfort zone on a particular topic. So provide that version, but also provide an alternative version, which would be what I call the what would you do if you had that person’s role version, which would be a bit bolder, a bit more ambitious, and in a potentially could, um, in a provoke some sharper thinking or, [00:33:00] or or more ambitious positioning on their part.
What I found is when they see, and I wouldn’t do this all the time, obviously, but where they see the gap between the two. Either they’ll go in another direction or they’ll go at least somewhere between the more conservative version and the more ambitious version. Occasionally they’ll go with the more bitch ambitious version, in which case you as a communication leader have actually moved the needle in the organization.
Shel Holtz: Uh, we have a comment from, uh, Miko, uh, one of our regular viewers. Uh, good to see you Miko. Uh, thanks for all the great advice. Can you share your top communications tip for business leaders who are trying to forge partnerships with other organizations, whether businesses, schools, or community groups?
Mike Klein: so comment about [00:34:00] listening is a really good starting point. What is it? They’re, they want get out of that partnership. Um, is it money? Is it sponsorship? Is it. Um, political clout, what have you. Um, because you know, once you get what they’re interested in, then you could figure out what it makes sense for you to contribute to, um, to help them achieve their goal in a way that forwards your agenda as well.
Robin McCasland: I would say also you meet a need that, you know, that maybe they haven’t even brought up. So, for example, I, and I realize healthcare is, is handled very differently in different countries, uh, in my organization because we’re in the health insurance space. Um, and I’m really proud of this. Our company has invested millions and I mean.
Millions of dollars in things that will support the community for people who, um, are underserved, who may not have access to health insurance or the opportunity to even have an annual physical or just get their vital [00:35:00] basic blood work, the basic stuff checked. We invest in areas where they have food deserts in other, to try to get more nutritious foods into areas where that’s a problem.
Um, we have. Spent a lot of money in the, in the states that we serve on free fitness courts that anybody can go to in a city park. We do. And we, and we mean what we say when we do that. Um, we, uh, our own government relations people go into the communities because they wanna understand if they’re trying to represent us at the federal level, they wanna understand and hear from people directly.
And they have good relationships with our, um, our, uh, plans that have relationships there. So, um, I think that’s something because you, you’re delivering something without even being asked, that’s gonna be real value add. Um, and that sets you up to be a good partner for future things that you may want to do with a community or they may want from you, but you’ve already proven yourself to be a really good, um, partner with that organization or with that community.[00:36:00]
Sue Heuman: And if you’re trying to be the one who is forging this partnership, which is kind of what I read in your question, I think that what you wanna start with is to figure out where your organization and the other are aligned. Whether it’s on values, whether it’s on services, perhaps there’s something that you do that the other organization needs, and there can be some reciprocity there.
So I think that, you know, finding alignment, uh, between the two organizations and seeing how we can help each other achieve our business or, um, social corporate goals, uh, can be a great way to start a conversation. So if you’re the one initiating for sure. Yeah,
Russell Grossman: I think my, um, top tip, my top comms tip would be be cautious.
Uh, do you know why you wanna do this to Mike’s point? And perhaps also ask the key question where, how, how the end of this project would you want to extricate yourself from it? Uh, some CEOs, MDs, et [00:37:00] cetera boards even go into this. And then over a perhaps short period of time, two or three years, you know, the CEO’s been run under a bus.
They, the board has changed and actually the strategic direction is no longer what it was. Or maybe the money is no longer there. So how, but you may have created an expectation, uh, in the business or the school or community group. So I, I think where before you go into something like this, just my, my top tip apart from be cautious would, would then be, just be careful to that, you know, that if you needed to pull out how you would pull out, and that might be, for example, establishing expectations right at the start.
Uh, that, you know, this may not be an open-ended thing. We’ll give it a pilot, we’ll try it for a year, maybe a couple of years, et cetera. I think that’s really quite important.
Sue Heuman: Yeah. And have a partnership agreement. You know, when you go into this, understand who’s doing what, what success looks like. To your point, Russell, how do you extricate yourself?
Um, you know, the expectations on both sides I think will [00:38:00] really set you up for a positive experience.
Shel Holtz: Yeah. Just a, a logistical point, some organizations have outreach managers. Uh, my organization does this is mostly for, uh, labor type groups and, and for underprivileged organiza, you know, uh, serv services that, um, serve the underprivileged and, and move them into the construction trades.
Uh, but they may have a lot of insights about how to build these partnerships. They may even have contacts for you. So if there’s somebody like that in, in your organization, maybe, uh, worth. Reaching out. Uh, and Miko offers his thanks for all of that. Many years ago, uh, there was a, a, an IEVC leader named Dean Landes.
Some of you may remember, Dean. Uh, he wrote an article, I think it was in the old communication World magazine, in which he said, uh, most leaders perceive communicators as hired guns. Uh, the folks [00:39:00] who are brought in to clean up the town after the mess has been made. Uh, we were not at the table. Uh, when the decision was made, uh, we were not able to provide counsel to say that this decision is going to have some, uh, serious negative repercussions that we need to prepare for or maybe even consider changing this decision.
Uh, how do you build the trust with the senior executive team in an organization so that they want your input at the time the decision is being made and not after.
Russell Grossman: I think a lot of, a lot of the things that communications leadership is founded on is relationships, uh, both at the individual level and at the group level as well. So, um, you know, what is your reputation as an individual practitioner in the organization, but beyond that, how many people do you personally know, and particularly people in the [00:40:00] organization of influence, uh, what did they think about your performance?
How did they regard you? Do you know this, um. Uh, my, my, my experience of, uh, and I’ve worked in 13 different organizations in a, uh, world year plus year career, uh, I is that you, you go into an organization and, and, uh, you, you are aiming always to do the things that I’ve just described, but also get to a physician where you can influence the organization at the right level in the right time.
Uh, and that also means that if you see something, which could have happened, if you’d have been in the room, but you weren’t in the room, don’t be afraid to come back afterwards and say. If I’d have been around, you have to temper how you say this, but if I’d have been around my, the result, there would’ve been different.
Um, and that requires a certain degree of boldness. It requires a certain degree of courage and a certain degree of [00:41:00] chutzpah that equally, if you are too timid and you just, you and you just stay in your box, and I know that’s a theme that I mentioned before, then you are not going to be the best communications leader for that organization.
Robin McCasland: I, I, I would tack onto what you’re saying, Russell. ’cause I was thinking about several examples while you were saying that I have seen instances where somebody I work with, maybe my boss, maybe me, maybe my peers, um, who have had the opportunity to advise and the advice was not taken at all. And then when things went awry as we thought they might, some will come back and go, but what, why is this, why are they, why is this audience upset?
And we’re like. As we said politely and respectfully, it’s like the reason we suggested this once again is X, Y, and Z. And I have found sometimes that when those things happen and they’re like, okay, you’re back at the table and we’re paying closer attention because of what happened previously. And I hate that anybody gets [00:42:00] burned in those situations, but sometimes that’s a good opportunity to say, remember when And yeah, sometimes that helps.
Sue Heuman: I remember, uh, one of the times that I was invited to the, uh, the big table as a participant. Um, the CEO wanted me there. The other executives were not sure they were, it wasn’t personal. It was just they’d never had someone, uh, from a communication, leadership perspective sit at the big table. So I had to agree that I wouldn’t quote vote on anything because that was their purview and not mine.
However, after only a couple of meetings where I sort of heard what they were talking about, a new initiative or something, and I chimed in with some, you know, perspectives from either the audience or the employee perspective, um, and just said, you know, something you might wanna think about after the time they started to look to me every time they presented something to see if I had a reaction or a [00:43:00] perspective to bring from an audience.
So I think that if you can demonstrate your value that way, if who can reflect the thinking or the, uh, perspective of your audiences, that’s often something that leaders at the C-Suite don’t think about as they’re trying to mush through the, the mechanics of their proposal.
Mike Klein: I think if you can put actual data behind those, um, those instincts and those inclinations, then you’re doing something that they wouldn’t be able to or wouldn’t have the inclination to do.
I mean, you know, where I’ve been successful in organizations, it’s been a combination of responsiveness and meeting, you know, meeting their expectations, especially initially and proactivity, particularly in terms of bringing hard data to the table that says, you know, this is what people are thinking, this is what they’re saying.
This is the extent to which they’re aligned with where you are, et cetera. And not just numbers, [00:44:00] but also hard hitting quotes from actual people that can tend to have a positive impact or at least a decisive impact on some of the conversation.
Robin McCasland: We, Michael, we, yeah, we do that. On the reg, we have quarter, uh, quarterly dashboards that go in depth about things like town halls that have happened over the past quarter.
Other communication, the open-ended feedback. Um, we do monthly dashboards. That’s on internal external reputation management, all the things that that communications touches. Um, and we do our own surveys twice a year outside of what HR does to get that, not only have the employees answer questions, but that open-ended feedback is the best stuff and we always summarize that and that information is available for senior leaders and is shared with them and used to advise them on future communication opportunities and maybe what we can do better or maybe what we do more of.
Or maybe instances where it’s like now you shouldn’t communicate right now. Like we use it for all those things. And um, yeah, it’s been [00:45:00] effect took us a little while to get it up and running, but now it, in fact, that function is part of my team and I’m really proud of that group ’cause they turn on a very good product and we also get great data from the rest of our organization and it matters.
It makes a difference in how we interact with the leadership that we work with.
Russell Grossman: It does make a big difference. And having that discipline of knowing that every quarter you have promised your board, uh, a, a dashboard, know you have that discipline of making sure that you know how good you are, but also whether are, whether are deficiencies where you need to improve.
It’s not just a question. And you definitely, we don’t want to go just to your board with all the good stuff because otherwise I’ll ask, okay, this is the good stuff, but where’s the stuff that you haven’t given us? And so the, and I think that that giving, giving that warts and all approach, this is assuming that your team is, is good.
Of course, giving that watts and all approach also engenders trust by the board of the communications team. And that’s important as well.
Shel Holtz: I, I Russell [00:46:00] you, you talked at the beginning of this, uh, conversation about, uh, building the relationships in order to build trust with, uh, the leadership team, uh, and identifying who’s influential.
How do, how do you do that? How do you figure out who has the influence among the organization’s leaders for, um, you know, the, the, the, the tone of communication or, or, uh, you know, the issues that we’re going to address that?
Russell Grossman: Well, how do you do that? I think that’s a key skill of anybody that is, uh, leading communications, is to understand the people in the organization, uh, to understand what their history in the organization is, uh, to know what their preferences are, how they get on with their teams, what their teams say about them, uh, where their, where their past, uh, successes and failures, uh, in the business have been.
How their own peers regard them. Uh, when I was at the BBC, which I think is long enough, long enough ago, [00:47:00] 25 years to be able to talk about it now, uh, we, we ran an exercise called cryptonomics, uh, which we got a, an ex, an external organization, uh, coming in to find out how different parts of the BBC regarded each other.
Uh, the results were, were fascinating, uh, but having that kind of knowledge, I think is fundamental to be able to operate, uh, in an effective way as a communications leader. And it also, of course, informs, uh, how you, how you want to. Uh, conjure relations and influence with the right people in the organization.
What you don’t want to be doing, particularly as a senior leader, is spending a lot of time, uh, with people frankly, that have less influence. Uh, that’s not to criticize those people. They are probably very hard working people providing value in their organization. Uh, but the people that you want to be, you wanna be spending time with are those that provide, that have the influence in the organization.
Why? Because ultimately you are delivering value for the organization by [00:48:00] doing that.
Sue Heuman: You go ahead. Yes. Just, just gonna say, I think you can also check the body language, uh, around the board table. So the people with influence are the ones where when they speak, people sit up and pay attention. Uh, and so you want to try and understand sort of who’s who in the zoo there.
And it’s not always a hierarchical thing in terms of who has influence. Sometimes it’s the. The lawyer, the corporate lawyer at the table has the influence, or sometimes it’s the, um, chief financial officer. So just check body language and see who’s paying attention to who. And that will give you an insight as to who actually listens to their beliefs.
Yeah, I’ll, I’ll give you a
Robin McCasland: great example. I think a great example, um, when I worked for a major HR consulting firm, um, one of our clients was a global hotel company. They run hotels all over and they have low end hotels, high end hotels, all the things. Um, and they were trying to actually support their employees at all [00:49:00] levels who were not necessarily participating in the benefits available to them in the country, their medical opportunity, their, you know, other things that the, the company would offer.
And so we did a lot of listening. We looked at their surveys. We paid attention to behaviors that we saw and we were interacting with people. And what we figured out in this case was that some people at um. Lower levels of the organization, but that are absolutely critical of the organization. Like housekeepers in their hotels, trusted the head housekeeper.
They didn’t try to, their man. It wasn’t that the management had done anything janky. They just, they trusted the head housekeeper. And sometimes depending on the corner of the world they were in, um, language was an issue, but they always trusted that housekeeper. And so one of the things we did is we said, we need you.
We tapped them to help be the influencers for, look, these things are available to you. This doesn’t cost you anything. They just didn’t understand it and they didn’t know who to listen to, but that was who they listened to. And so we did that [00:50:00] and then they saw their enrollment go up, which you know, is an expense of the company, but that’s what they wanted.
They wanted to support these people, not have as much turnover, offer them all the things of good so that they could build their own careers there. And that’s, that’s how we did it. But it took some paying attention first to go. Who’s influential? It was head housekeepers. It wasn’t a management, it wasn’t senior leadership.
It wasn’t a corporate spokesperson. You gotta pay attention.
Shel Holtz: I wanna talk about the table for a minute. I telegraphed this earlier. Uh, we had an episode of Circle of Fellows some time ago. Uh, Jim Koski, uh, was one of the participants, and he mocked the table. Uh, he, he said, uh, where is this table E? Exactly how big is it? Uh, his view is that being at the table, uh, is not nearly as important as being the person that the leader wants to pick up the phone and call before the meeting at the table ever occurs.
Is, is this [00:51:00] something you would agree with and, and what do you need to do to become that kind of person?
Sue Heuman: You need to be a trusted advisor. You need to be the trusted advisor that the CEO goes to, presuming it’s the CEO who, who wants to speak to you, um, ahead of the meeting. And you need to be able to offer insights and perspectives that maybe they haven’t hadn’t thought of.
Um, and then if you do that, uh, then there’s a better chance that not only will you have, you know, the CEO’s ear prior to the meeting, the CEO will probably call on you during the meeting to offer your insights for the benefit of the group.
Russell Grossman: Jim Lucas Shefsky, uh, is amazing. I remember first coming across in Malcolm, precisely, I know when it was.
It was in Chicago in 2002, and I couldn’t believe that he managed to lead a whole session basically off the back of a business card. Uh, and I, he, I think he’s, I think he’s right. My, my, my, my, uh, conclusion. Uh. After many years practice [00:52:00] is that you don’t need to be at the table, but you do need to be round the table.
Uh, sometimes communications practitioners are most effective when they are in the room, but not part of the group because that allows us to hold a mirror to the group without actually having, uh, if you like, the, the leg in the group that prevents us. Doing something different. Um, and to the trusted advisor point, which sue’s absolutely right on.
You have to do your legwork in the organization, uh, in order to be a trusted advisor. It’s all the things that we’ve talked about today, and it’s knowing the business inside are, it’s understanding who the influences are. Uh, it’s understanding what the CEO is worried about, whether it’s the small things or the big things.
And it’s also being able to see round corners. It is having enough nows to be able to see things, if you like, from a distance that often the board can’t see because they’re right in the middle of the, might be a crisis rather in the middle of the situation. And if you’re a trusted advisor [00:53:00] sufficiently to be able to do what I describe as be the gr in the oyster without being the pin in the balloon, but also the gesture at the court of klia.
In other words, know when you can make a suggestion that is. A little bit radical, but not so radical that people decry it and say the things that nobody else wants you to, what nobody else wants to say.
Mike Klein: Well, I think there’s, I think there’s also another piece around not necessarily seeking your own seat at the table or seeking the CEOs.
You’re right away. Uh, sometimes you need to build up your standing within the organization by focusing on getting some allies around that table first. I mean, in an organization that’s got an operating board on an executive board, chances are there are at least one, probably two people to start with who have some demand for your services.
Whether it’s getting their agenda point up on [00:54:00] the, up on the priority list, or getting their profile up in the organization, having a couple of allies on at that table. Particularly if they’re not your boss is definitely going to help accelerate that process to being a trusted advisor. ’cause you’ve got a couple of people on that table who see you as one to begin with that’s potentially gonna soften the CEO up.
I mean, there’s a lot of focus on us having direct influence with the CEO, which is a great thing. But having direct influence with people who value your, um, your contribution initially can help you get that and maybe an easier focus when you start.
Shel Holtz: I think we have time for, for one more topic. Uh, and let’s look at those communication leaders who are maybe lower in the communication structure, managing a team within a communication function.[00:55:00]
What do they need to do to be able to move up that hierarchy if they aspire to? Run a communications function at the most senior level.
Sue Heuman: I think they need to demonstrate that they have the managerial skills, the leadership skills, to be part of the overall group who can look outside just the communication function and look at the entire business, um, and see how you can offer insights or, um, opportunities, training, coaching, whatever it may be.
Um, you know, to really sort of advance your, your ability to influence the organization.
Robin McCasland: And I think listening upfront is really important. So if you are new to an organization or you’re more recently out of school or whatever it might be, don’t come into any situation thinking you know the answer or trying to demonstrate you, you know the answer.
I think listening to people [00:56:00] first and understanding. Their pain points, where they’re coming from, what they perceive the issues to be, because you’ll learn a lot that you might not have picked up on otherwise. That helps a lot too, because people remember that and, and then when they see it acted upon in how you’re communicating or what you’re supporting as a communication professional, they’re more likely to go, she listened to me, he listened to me, and this is what I saw as a result.
Now you’re starting to gain more influence in people trusting you. So when you’re in that leadership role and you say stuff, people believe you, um, and are ready to go with you. I hate to say into battle, but they’re ready to go with you when you are working on something significant because you’ve already demonstrated that you’re paying attention to them and you care about what they care about
Russell Grossman: and to progress in that way.
I think you need three things, grit. Tenacity and resilience, uh, grit because you need to knuckle down and be prepared to do work and sometimes work quite hard, uh, [00:57:00] in order to achieve what, what it is that you’re trying to achieve. Tenacity, because, uh, you need to be, you need to hold on and you need to.
Continue with it, even though it feels that, uh, you know, it feels that it may at times be a lost cause. Often it isn’t. And resilience, because there are times when you will be knocked down, uh, verbally, uh, hopefully, uh, not physically. Uh, you will be knocked down in the organization and you need to have resilience to get up and recognize that.
Uh, saying that I often have is that six outta 10 is success because you, uh, recognize that you can come round for the other four. Um, if you attempt to achieve everything in one go, then sometimes, uh, you will exhaust yourself. You will drop out and it just won’t happen. So, grit, tenacity, and resilience.
Mike Klein: If I were to just add one thing, it would be to focus on asking good questions rather than coming up with great answers.
’cause [00:58:00] particularly if you’re more junior in your career, you have a lot more permission to ask questions. And if you ask questions that are noticeably good, people will notice the quality of the questions and they’ll notice your confidence in being willing to ask them. And that’s, you know, and pretty much any conclusion that you can come to in life.
You can always rephrase as a question, so if you don’t feel you have the permission to propose answers right out of the box, being able to ask good questions visibly is a good way to move up the lab.
Shel Holtz: I have always operated under the philosophy that my job is to make my boss look good. And, uh, I have found that works really well.
I continue to, uh, uh, abide by that. One other point I wanna make very quickly, uh, as we wind down, I think this was out of the UUSC Annenberg School survey. Um, I would wanna [00:59:00] verify that before I committed myself to, to that citation. But the study indicated, uh, that a rather large percentage, more than half of the communication, I think it was managers that were surveyed, uh, did not know what their company’s business plan was and had had not read it.
Um, and, and I just found that staggering. I don’t know how you can aspire to a leadership role when you don’t dunno what the path is. Your company is on. Uh, so, uh, yeah, that, that’s, uh, that is a song Back to that Understanding Management. Um, I, I wanna thank everybody for your time and your insights today.
This has been a terrific conversation. I do, uh, also wanna thank, uh, Anna Marie Willie for, uh, all of her, uh, hard work in coordinating these sessions every month. Uh, and she has assembled a great panel for August. Uh, this, uh, episode one 19 on Thursday, August [01:00:00] 21st, uh, at 4:00 PM Eastern Time. Uh, we bounce these times around to accommodate the time zones of our fellows.
Our topic, uh, in August is, uh, sustaining sustainability. How do we keep it front and center? Our organizations, uh, panelists in, in this episode will be, uh, ZOA artists, uh, out of Australia. Uh, Brent Carey, uh, from Canada, Bonnie Caver from the us and Martha Muzyka from Canada. So another, uh, international contingent.
Looking forward to that one. Uh, hope to see, uh, all of you who watch Live next month. Uh, thanks everybody. It’s been great.
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