Artificial intelligence has been raising foundational questions for patent law long before generative tools entered the mainstream. In this episode of Clause 8, host Eli Mazour speaks with Wen Xie, U.S. Patent Attorney and Founder of Lux Lumen Intellectual Property, about how legal thinking around AI, inventorship, and patent eligibility has evolved—and where it appears to be heading.

The conversation traces early debates sparked by the DABUS cases, which framed AI inventorship as a question of whether a machine could be named as an inventor. While those cases clarified that U.S. patent law requires a human inventor, they also highlighted a more practical issue that remains unresolved: how to evaluate human contribution when AI tools play a role in the inventive process, including in areas such as industrial design.

The episode also examines the USPTO’s shifting approach to AI-related inventions, from post-Alice uncertainty to more recent Section 101 guidance and new USPTO Director’s John Squires Ex parte Desjardins PTAB decision. Wen discusses how applicants can position AI inventions as genuine technological improvements, avoid overreliance on “black box” disclosures, and manage Section 112 risks.

The discussion concludes with a forward-looking look at using AI tools for patent practice, the USPTO’s new pilot for AI-powered pre-examination search, and what these developments mean for practitioners and innovators navigating a rapidly changing IP landscape.

Watch the full episode or listen on your favorite podcast app—and subscribe to the new Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content.

Presented by Tradespace – where ideas take flight.

Chapters

00:01 – Wen Xie’s early interest in AI and patent law02:10 – AI disruption before ChatGPT: imaging, medicine, and automation04:56 – How AI reshaped Wen’s legal career05:55 – DABUS, Thaler, and the AI inventorship debate08:56 – Human contribution vs. AI output10:40 – Should companies restrict inventors from using AI?11:59 – What in-house counsel should ask about AI use14:20 – Duty of candor, recordkeeping, and litigation risk18:06 – Section 101 and AI as technological improvement22:50 – USPTO guidance, PTAB trends, and examiner behavior32:01 – Section 112 issues and describing machine learning33:40 – Using generative AI in patent drafting39:40 – Advice for junior attorneys in an AI-driven practice

Disclaimer

In the latest episode of Clause 8, recorded in December 2025, Eli Mazour sits down with Peter-Anthony Pappas, Director of Intellectual Property Policy for the U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary under Senator Thom Tillis, at a moment when the USPTO’s direction is in significant alignment with what Senator Tillis and Senator Chris Coons have been working toward since reviving the Senate IP Subcommittee in 2019.

Under new USPTO leadership, the agency has taken meaningful steps to strengthen patent rights over the last year—from significantly reining in the role of the PTAB in invalidating patents to bringing greater clarity to how Section 101 is applied within the USPTO. But as Peter-Anthony explains, while the steps taken by the agency are promising agency action alone is prone to change and limited to what happens at the USPTO.

That’s where Senator Tillis comes in. Peter-Anthony walks through how PREVAIL and PERA will lock in much of the what the USPTO is doing and provide long-term certainty for innovators. The conversation explores the progress made last Congress, where the sticking points remain, and what it will take for the legislation to finally pass during Senator Tillis final term.

Peter-Anthony is candid about the reality of iterative progress – the coalition building, education, and compromise required - as well as the entrenched interests who have resisted all legislative efforts. At the same time, he describes the slow but meaningful momentum he’s seeing, and why this moment presents an opportunity for the USPTO, Congress, and stakeholders to work together. Before being chosen as USPTO’s acting Director, Coke Morgan Stewart sounded a similar note of optimism about a second Trump administration supporting bi-partisan patent bills.

Peter-Anthony brings a rare vantage point to that assessment. Before coming to Capitol Hill, he served as a frontline Patent Examiner, a Supervisory Patent Examiner, PTAB Branch Chief, and Special Advisor to former USPTO Director Andrei Iancu. He shares the story of following that path and provides insights into how that experience gives him a unique understanding of how patent policy works in practice and what it takes to make meaningful, long-term changes.

The episode also touches on other IP issues at the top of Senator Tillis’ agenda, including copyright and AI, commercial piracy, and performance rights — including Peter-Anthony’s role in planning a recent IP Subcommittee hearing that drew attention for testimony from Gene Simmons.

Eli and Peter-Anthony also discuss their shared North Jersey roots, and how they first met while Peter-Anthony was at the USPTO.

👉 Listen to the full episode—and explore bonus content on the new Clause 8 YouTube channel.

📌 Presented by Tradespace – where ideas take flight.

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How do you protect the IP of a rapidly growing technology company in the dynamic AI sector without slowing engineers or missing what really matters?

That question is at the center of this episode of Clause 8, where host Eli Mazour sat down with Subroto Bose, Head of IP at Astera Labs, at the VIA Licensing Alliance’s 2025 Bridge Summit.

Prior to Astera, Subroto held IP leadership roles at global semiconductor companies and standards-driven licensing environments. That breadth of experience informs a central theme of the conversation: effective IP strategy is ultimately about predicting the future. Patents filed today must remain relevant not only at issuance, but across multiple generations of products and shifting market realities.

Astera Labs operates at the intersection of AI and semiconductors, a highly competitive space where multiple companies are advancing the technology in parallel and IP strategy must complement active—and sometimes unpredictable—product development. Subroto brings a rare perspective to that challenge, shaped by earlier experiences growing semiconductor patent portfolios and dealing with non-practicing entities at Altera and Marvell, as well as buying patent portfolios and participating in patent pools at Dolby Laboratories, before taking on the task of building an IP program from scratch at Astera.

During the discussion, Eli and Subroto explore how early-stage companies should prioritize patent filings under budget constraints, why patent quality matters far more than volume, and how IP leaders can embed patent thinking directly into engineering culture rather than treating it as a separate legal function.

Subroto explains why, in a competitive environment, some IP decisions cannot be deferred without consequences—and how that reality shapes what he chooses to protect and when. He also reflects on what years spent reviewing patents as a buyer taught him about identifying real value, and how that buyer’s lens now influences his current role.

He also shares why he decided to sit at a desk inside the engineering area when he joined Astera Labs, and the impact that had on how he learned about new technology and engaged engineers.

The episode also takes a clear-eyed look at the limits of trade secrets, particularly in industries where disclosure to customers and partners is unavoidable and parallel invention is a real risk. Subroto explains why deciding what belongs in a patent versus what can safely remain confidential is rarely straightforward—and why relying on secrecy alone can leave companies exposed.

Finally, Subroto offers advice for those aspiring to become Heads of IP at high-growth Silicon Valley technology companies, reflecting on his own non-linear path into IP leadership, including early litigation work alongside Kathi Vidal before she became USPTO Director.

The conversation offers practical insight for anyone interested in how to design and implement an IP program built for long-term success in fast-moving technology markets.

Watch the full episode or listen on your favorite podcast app—and subscribe to the new Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content.

Presented by Tradespace – where ideas take flight.

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While many people talk about mentorship, HP’s Chief IP Counsel Ceyda Maisami and Tradespace’s VP of IP Operations & Client Success Marcia Chang actually live it.

In this episode, Ceyda and Marcia join Clause 8 host Eli Mazour for a wide-ranging conversation about mentorship, what it really takes to run IP teams inside large technology companies, and what the rise of AI means for both in-house and outside counsel.

They share the story of how they first met at HP, why Ceyda credits Marcia with the advice and encouragement that helped her grow into the Chief IP Counsel role, and what that guidance looks like in practice for other in-house lawyers navigating their own careers.

The conversation also dives into HP’s experience with high-stakes litigation and how those lessons shape its global patent portfolio strategy. Ceyda also offers a behind-the-scenes look at HP’s IP team restructure—why early attempts fell short and what finally made the new model work. The discussion delivers practical takeaways for anyone building or leading an in-house IP team, balancing portfolio development with business goals, or working to make IP more central to company decisions.

The episode closes with a candid, practical discussion of AI—what it means for the expectations placed on outside counsel, how in-house teams are already using it, and what lawyers need to do to continue delivering real value as the pace of work accelerates.

Together, Ceyda and Marcia offer a rare, grounded look at mentorship, leadership, and the future of IP inside major tech companies.

👉 Listen to the full episode—and explore more conversations shaping the future of IP—on the Clause 8 YouTube channel.

📌 Presented by Tradespace – where ideas take flight.

Disclaimer

At the 2025 Via Licensing Alliance Bridge Summit in San Francisco, Brian Dorini, Senior Director at Dolby, and Tyrome Brown, Dolby’s Chief Patent Counsel, offered a clear-eyed look at the state of patent pools and the shifting realities of the global SEP ecosystem. Far from being outdated structures, both emphasized that pools remain essential tools for enabling collaboration, reducing friction, and supporting meaningful innovation — even amid regulatory uncertainty.

Dorini described patent pools as “great democratizers of technology,” helping both licensors and implementers navigate increasingly complex standards environments. As regulatory scrutiny intensifies across the U.S., Europe, and Asia, he noted that pools are evolving in response, finding new ways to balance transparency with practical, market-driven licensing solutions.

Brown expanded on this theme from Dolby’s internal perspective. He outlined how Dolby ensures the strength and essentiality of its patent portfolio — through direct participation in standards development, rigorous internal analysis, and independent evaluations. These processes, he explained, are critical not only for maintaining high-quality SEP assets but for building trust across the licensing market.

Both speakers also pointed forward. As Dolby’s technologies extend into areas such as wireless power, EV charging, and other emerging platforms, the role of patent pools is likely to expand. While the fundamental structure of pools may remain consistent, their scope and global influence continue to grow, driven by new implementers, new licensors, and new technological frontiers.

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Recent changes at USPTO are increasingly shaping the context in which Congress considers potential patent legislation.

In the latest episode of Clause 8, the focus turns to how the USPTO’s evolving approach to post-grant proceedings at the PTAB is shaping the broader patent policy debate—and influencing what Congress may (or may not) do next.

The episode features David Jones, Executive Director of the High Tech Inventors Alliance (HTIA) and a longtime Clause 8 favorite, alongside Jeffrey Hantson, a former patent litigator and senior Senate Judiciary Committee staffer who most recently served as Deputy General Counsel to Sen. Dick Durbin after advising Sen. Mazie Hirono on IP issues. Dave and Jeff first crossed paths during the pre-pandemic Section 101 roundtables, and the episode captures their fun, wonky back-and-forth dynamic.

A central theme is whether the USPTO’s recent moves on IPR institution—including its Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM)—create an opening for Congress to strike a bargain, or instead make legislative compromise harder. Dave and Jeff explore how the introduction of settled expectations, Director John Squires reclaiming institution authority, and broader institution trends are reshaping the conversation around proposals such as the PREVAIL Act.

Jeff frames the core tension in familiar terms for staffers and stakeholders: at some point, should the USPTO be done reassessing a patent’s validity? Dave, for his part, is skeptical that legislation is the answer when the agency is (in his view) drifting from what was envisioned when Congress created the PTAB under the America Invents Act (AIA).

The conversation also explores why PREVAIL advanced further than PERA in the last Congress, why PTAB reform is often easier to grasp on Capitol Hill than Section 101 eligibility, and why Sen. Thom Tillis’ likability—and impending retirement—may matter more than most people realize.

Set against a backdrop of shifting IP leadership on Capitol Hill and mixed administrative signals on patents, the episode offers a candid look at where patent policy may be headed—and what it would take to change course.

🎧 Watch the full episode or listen on your favorite podcast app—and subscribe to the new Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content.

From the archives:

* Iancu and Jones Debate Section 101: https://www.voiceofip.com/p/iancu-and-jones-debate-section-101

* HTIA’s David Jones on Winning in DC: https://www.voiceofip.com/p/htias-david-jones-on-winning-in-dc-335

* 📌 Sponsored by Tradespace – where ideas take flight.

Disclaimer

Corey Salsberg, one of the leading voices on intellectual property policy in the United States, joins Clause 8 to discuss surviving the anti-pharma activism of the last administration, why he’s encouraged by the current administration’s approach to patent policy, and even the scientific possibility of “resurrecting the woolly mammoth.”

As Global Head of IP at Novartis, Salsberg has a unique vantage point on how legal uncertainty affects the future of healthcare innovations. His work testifying before Congress has placed him at the center of the debate over the Supreme Court’s Mayo, Myriad, and Alice decisions — rulings that he thinks have been followed by years of instability around Section 101, threatening investment in critical biotech and diagnostic breakthroughs.

The conversation explores the political landscape surrounding the Patent Eligibility Restoration Act (PERA), the persistence of myths like “patent thickets,” and the consequences of letting misinformation shape innovation policy. It also highlights what Congress can do to prevent the U.S. from falling behind in the race for gene and AI-driven therapeutics.

Ultimately, Salsberg’s perspective underscores how constructive, good-faith dialogue across industries remains essential to safeguarding innovation.

🎧 Listen to the full episode now on the Clause 8 Podcast.

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✉️ Subscribe to Voice of IP for more stories behind the world’s most consequential innovations:voiceofip.com

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At the Via Licensing Alliance’s Bridge Summit 2025 in San Francisco, Clause 8 host Eli Mazour sat down with two leaders who ushered in the modern age of patent pools: Garrard Beeney, founder of Sullivan & Cromwell’s IP practice, and John Sideris, Principal Licensing Counsel at Philips.

Their conversation traces the evolution of patent pools — from the early days of MPEG LA and antitrust uncertainty to today’s complex, global licensing ecosystem.

Garrard Beeney recalls how early skepticism toward joint licensing eventually gave way to an appreciation of how collaboration between innovators can expand access, reduce friction, and drive technological growth. He warns, however, that increasing regulatory interference — particularly in Europe — risks undermining a system that largely works.

John Sideris brings the perspective of a major technology innovator. He discusses how Philips built a licensing culture that values both innovation and fairness, explaining why patent pools remain one of the most efficient and balanced ways to manage IP rights. He also shares a rare insider view into how companies factor intellectual property costs into product development — and why responsible licensing keeps the innovation cycle healthy.

Together, their insights offer a window into how markets, not mandates, can sustain innovation — and why listening across the licensor-licensee divide remains essential for the future of IP.

🔔 Listen now via the Clause 8 Podcast📌 Sponsored by TradeSpace – where ideas take flight🖋️ Subscribe to Voice of IP for more in-depth conversations on patents, licensing, and innovation.

In this episode of Clause 8, Deputy Commissioner for Patents Jerry Lorengo joins host Eli Mazour to share valuable, practical insights for patent professionals navigating the USPTO’s new Performance Appraisal Plan (PAP).

Jerry discusses what’s changed in the latest update — including the revised streamlined review process, new production expectations, and updated interview time policy — and offers guidance on how examiners, applicants, and SPEs can adapt effectively.

He reveals that the streamlined review will now focus only on independent claims, not dependent claims indicated as allowable, and explains how this early-stage supervisory review is designed to expedite prosecution, strengthen examination quality, and help SPEs learn from experienced primary examiners.

Jerry also stresses the importance of collaboration: even with new interview limitations, examiners are encouraged to conduct interviews that help clarify issues and move applications forward.

📌 Sponsored by Tradespace – where ideas take flight.📬 Subscribe to the Voice of IP Substack: https://voiceofip.com/🔔 Subscribe to the Clause 8 Podcast for more deep-dive conversations.

#patents #innovation #intellectualproperty #USPTO #Clause8 #VoiceOfIP

When I first heard about Lisa Ascolese, known as “The Inventress,” I knew I wanted to bring her story to Clause 8.

Lisa’s path into inventing began after her family moved to Brooklyn, New York, where her creativity and curiosity found room to grow. She started inventing at a young age, driven by the simple desire to solve everyday problems. That curiosity evolved into a lifelong passion for turning ideas into reality. Her first major success—the Bosom Buddy breastfeeding cape—opened doors to retail shelves, QVC appearances, and a deep understanding of what it truly takes to bring a product to market.

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In our conversation, Lisa and I talk about what inventors often learn the hard way: that success requires persistence, self-belief, and an understanding of both patents and business. She shares how she built Inventing from A to Z, a company that helps independent inventors navigate everything from concept to commercialization, and why she tells every creator:

“A patent doesn’t sell your product—you do.”

Lisa also offers insights for patent attorneys—encouraging them to ask inventors where they see their product being sold before diving into legal protection. Her perspective bridges the gap between invention and entrepreneurship, showing how passion and practicality go hand in hand.

For anyone ready to turn ideas into impact, Lisa’s story is both inspiring and instructive. Her new book, “The Inventress’s Guide to Inventing The Right Way: All Or Nothing, Now Or Never”, is an essential companion for creators determined to make their vision real.

🎧 Listen to the Full Episode now on YouTube here 📌 Sponsored by Tradespace – where ideas take flight.