A CMO Confidential Interview with Kim Whitler, professor at the University of Virginia Darden School of Business, board member, and former GM and CMO. Kim shares insights from more than a decade of research with over 500 CMO's including how 50+% of roles are misaligned, the huge gap between CEO's and CMO's, the fact that misalignment results in weaker financials, and her belief that better position matching would "prevent" the "cure" of firing the CMO. Key discussion topics include: why the CMO position has the most variance in the C-suite; the importance of matching responsibility, experience and status; and why she thinks search firms can do a better job. Tune in to hear marketing analogies to the New England Patriots line-up and James Bond movie casting.

Colonel Mustard, in the Study…with the Job Spec? Why Poor Role Design Shortens CMO Lifespans | CMO Confidential

Welcome back to CMO Confidential, the podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions, and politics that go with being the head of marketing. Hosted by 5x CMO Mike Linton (Best Buy, eBay, Farmers Insurance, Ancestry.com).

This week, Mike welcomes back Dr. Kim Whitler, Professor of Marketing at the University of Virginia’s Darden School of Business, former CMO, board director, and one of the foremost researchers on the CMO role. Kim has spent 14+ years analyzing 500+ interviews and hundreds of job specs to uncover why nearly 54% of CMO roles are misaligned—and what that means for tenure, effectiveness, and marketing’s reputation in the C-Suite.

From her groundbreaking research (published in HBR, Sloan Management Review, and the Journal of the Academy of Marketing Science) to real-world board and executive experience, Kim breaks down:

* Why job specs often set CMOs up to fail

* The massive perception gap between CEOs (who think roles are well-designed) and CMOs (who don’t)

* How status, responsibility, and experience combine to drive—or derail—firm outcomes

* The practical questions every CMO candidate should ask before taking a job

* Why “throw away the job spec and write your own” might be the smartest advice you’ll hear

🎙️ Whether you’re a CMO, CEO, board member, or aspiring marketing leader, this is a masterclass in role design, negotiation, and how to set marketing up for real impact.

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📌 Episode Chapters

00:00 – Welcome to CMO Confidential

01:30 – Introducing Dr. Kim Whitler

04:00 – Why CMO job specs often fail

08:15 – Defining “misalignment” in CMO roles

13:00 – The role of status, responsibility & experience

18:30 – The CEO vs. CMO perception gap

24:00 – Practical questions every CMO candidate should ask

30:00 – Negotiating role design & avoiding pitfalls

33:30 – Kim’s closing advice & final story

- About Our Sponsor: Typeface AI

This episode is brought to you by Typeface AI www.typeface.ai/cmo — named Company of the Year by Adweek, a TIME Best Invention, and one of Fast Company’s Next Big Things in Tech.

Typeface helps the world’s biggest brands move from business brief to fully personalized campaigns in hours, not months. Their agentic AI marketing platform scales a single campaign into thousands of on-brand experiences across ads, email, and video—all while integrating seamlessly with your MarTech stack and maintaining enterprise-grade security.

See how brands like Asics and Microsoft are transforming marketing with Typeface at typeface.ai/cmo.

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CMO Confidential Interview with Tom Goodwin, author, speaker, and former innovation head at Publicis, Zenith, and Havas. Tom discusses his belief that today's CMO's are overly focused on efficiency versus marketing principles and that the contemporary playbook has been created by tech companies focused on performance metrics. Key topics include: an unhealthy focus on the speed of measurement and short-term results; marketers having a "feeling of vulnerability" if they haven't heard of new tech; and the fact that many of the hyped direct-to-consumer brands like Casper and Ridge Wallets aren't actually doing that well. Tune in to hear the underestimated impact of "beauty" and a story about being locked out of a self-driving car.

🚨 New Episode of CMO Confidential 🚨

This week, host Mike Linton (5x CMO: eBay, Best Buy, Farmers Insurance, Ancestry.com) sits down with Tom Goodwin — author, speaker, and former global head of innovation at Publicis, Zenith and Havas.

Tom argues that today’s marketing playbook has been hijacked by tech platforms obsessed with performance metrics and short-term efficiency. In this wide-ranging conversation, we cover:

✅ Why CMOs are over-indexing on efficiency at the expense of brand-building principles

✅ The fear of irrelevance driving marketers to chase every new technology trend

✅ How speed of measurement is warping long-term thinking

✅ Why many direct-to-consumer darlings like Casper and Ridge Wallets aren’t as successful as headlines suggest

✅ The underestimated role of beauty and creativity in building lasting value

✅ A wild story about being locked out of a self-driving car

Whether you’re a CMO, founder, board member, or just obsessed with the future of marketing, this episode is a must-listen.

👉 Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the bell for more insider conversations on what it really takes to be a modern CMO.

#CMO #MarketingLeadership #TomGoodwin #CMOConfidential #BrandBuilding #MarketingStrategy #CMOInsights #DigitalMarketing #Innovation

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0:00 – Welcome & Intro: Meet Tom Goodwin

2:15 – Why CMOs Overvalue Efficiency

6:40 – The Tech-Driven Marketing Playbook

11:05 – Vulnerability & Fear of Missing Out on New Tech

15:20 – The Problem with Short-Term Metrics

19:00 – DTC Myths: Casper, Ridge Wallet & Beyond

23:45 – The Undervalued Power of Beauty & Creativity

28:10 – Locked Out of a Self-Driving Car (Story)

30:15 – Final Takeaways & Wrap-Up

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A CMO Confidential Interview with David Aaker, Vice Chair of Prophet, author of numerous marketing books including Aaker on Branding 2nd Edition, formerly a Haas School of Business Professor. David discusses the history of brand equity starting with the BCG model from the 90's and why that model and scanner data drove a short-term sales focus at the expense of brand equity. After years of progress, he believes we are now experiencing "A revival of short-termism." Key topics include: the differences between B2B and B2C brand building; the need for marketers to appreciate that brands aren't built in isolation; and how to break through in a hostile communications environment. Tune in to hear why he believes "There are easy ways for companies to build better brands," and case studies from Dove and Uniqlo.

Brand value has been discussed for decades—so why isn’t it a universally accepted business principle? In this episode of CMO Confidential, host Mike Linton sits down with branding legend David Aaker, Vice Chair at Prophet, author of 18 books, and widely regarded as the “Father of Modern Branding,” to unpack why the fight for brand equity is far from over.

From the origins of brand equity in the 1990s to today’s hostile marketing environment, Aaker shares insights on:

• Why brand should be treated as a long-term asset, not a short-term tactic

• How short-termism and performance marketing are eroding brand value

• The difference between B2B and B2C brand management (and why organizational values matter more in B2B)

• Examples of brands that have nailed disruptive innovation and purpose-driven branding (Dove, Uniqlo, Habitat for Humanity)

• Why most companies are managing brands poorly in today’s cluttered, skeptical media environment

• How AI could democratize creativity and make professional branding accessible to more companies

Packed with history, frameworks, and practical examples, this conversation will change the way you think about brand value, brand portfolios, and how to make your brand truly indispensable.

00:00 – Introduction to CMO Confidential & Guest David Aaker

01:15 – Why Brand Value Still Isn’t a Universally Accepted Principle

03:45 – The Birth of Brand Equity in the 1990s

06:10 – Short-Termism, Performance Marketing, and the Brand Erosion Problem

08:35 – How to Justify Brand as an Asset (Case Studies & Examples)

11:20 – The Visibility Advantage and 14 Dimensions of Brand Value

13:05 – Why CFOs and Boards Believe in Other Brands, but Not Their Own

15:10 – B2B vs B2C Branding: Key Differences and What Matters Most

17:45 – Why Many Companies Are Managing Brands Poorly Today

20:00 – Branding in a Hostile Communication Environment

22:05 – The Power of Brand Portfolios, Companion Brands, and “Silver Bullet” Brands

24:30 – Examples: Uniqlo, HeatTech, and the Westin Heavenly Bed

26:10 – Super Bowl Advertising: Breaking Through Clutter and Skepticism

28:00 – AI, the Democratization of Creativity, and the Future of Branding

29:20 – Final Advice: Your Duty as a Marketer to Build the Brand as an Asset

30:15 – Closing Remarks & Subscribe

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A CMO Confidential Interview with Auren Hoffman, CEO of SafeGraph, formerly co-founder and CEO of LiveRamp. Auren discusses his belief that vendor management is the most critical skill for the future and why most companies should "rent" a high caliber pool of talent instead of hiring individual executives. Key topics include: thoughts on improving your vendor management skill (with outside law firms as an example); the concept of "scaffolding" developing talent; why he believes procurement is a "negative value" function; and why he would short consulting firm Booz Allen. Tune in to hear why he thinks private equity has shifted from making companies better into financial engineers and his belief that an MBA usually has a negative ROI.

CMO Confidential: Auren Hoffman on Vendor Management, Talent Strategy, and the Broken MBA

In this week’s episode of CMO Confidential, Mike Linton sits down with Auren Hoffman, CEO of SafeGraph and former co-founder/CEO of LiveRamp, to challenge conventional thinking on hiring, procurement, and leadership development.

Auren shares why he believes vendor management is the #1 skill for future executives—and why most companies should rent world-class capabilities rather than hire executives they can’t fully utilize. From “scaffolding” young talent to his provocative views on procurement’s negative value, Booz Allen, MBAs, and the transformation of private equity, this episode is packed with contrarian insights for CMOs, CEOs, and founders alike.

🧠 Don’t miss Auren’s candid takes on why many traditional business functions are stuck in the past—and what leaders should do instead.

🔔 Subscribe for more insider lessons on what it really takes to thrive in the C-suite.

⏱️ Chapters:

00:00 - Introduction: Auren Hoffman’s Background & Career Path

01:45 - The Most Important Executive Skill: Vendor Management

05:22 - Why Renting Talent Beats Hiring for Most Companies

08:40 - Scaffolding: A Framework for Developing Talent

12:10 - The Case Against Procurement: “A Negative Value Function”

16:03 - Why He Would Short Booz Allen

18:35 - Private Equity’s Shift from Builders to Financial Engineers

23:14 - The Problem with MBAs and Why ROI is Often Negative

26:40 - How Executives Should Rethink Internal Capabilities

29:08 - Final Thoughts & Rapid-Fire Takes

Auren Hoffman, SafeGraph, LiveRamp, CMO Confidential, Mike Linton, vendor management, procurement, scaffolding talent, executive hiring strategy, Booz Allen, private equity critique, MBA ROI, modern leadership skills, B2B marketing, executive leadership, future of work, marketing strategy, marketing podcast, business podcast, CEO advice, CMO podcast, talent development, rent vs hire, startup strategy, enterprise strategy, marketing leadership, SafeGraph CEO, Auren Hoffman interview

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A CMO Confidential Interview with Peri Hansen, Korn Ferry Leader, CMO Practice, North America. Peri discusses why the CMO position is becoming the vanguard of innovation, the importance of an "agile learner" mindset, and why there's no substitute for great leadership. Key topics include: how nothing "returned to normal" after COVID; the importance of org design; and why CMO's should own the entire customer life cycle and help drive company strategy. Tune in to hear why references matter more than ever and the importance of building a personal brand.

Why the CMO Is Now the Innovation Leader | Peri Hansen, Korn Ferry CMO Practice

In this episode of CMO Confidential, Mike Linton sits down with Peri Hansen, leader of the CMO Practice at Korn Ferry North America, to explore how the role of Chief Marketing Officer has become the new vanguard of innovation, strategy, and customer-centric growth.

From org design to leadership development, Peri breaks down the key traits of successful CMOs and why companies are no longer returning to pre-COVID norms. She shares why agile learning, personal brand-building, and owning the full customer lifecycle are now non-negotiables for modern marketing leaders.

Topics Covered:

• Why CMOs are being tapped to drive innovation and transformation

• The post-COVID shift in org design and what it means for marketing

• The importance of leadership, agility, and continuous learning

• Why great references still matter in the hiring process

• How CMOs can (and should) influence company-wide strategy

Subscribe for weekly episodes featuring world-class marketing leaders, board members, and C-Suite executives.

⏱️ Chapters (Optimized for 29-minute Runtime)

00:00 – Intro: The Evolving Role of the CMO

01:00 – Meet Peri Hansen: Korn Ferry CMO Practice Leader

02:12 – Why the CMO is Now the Vanguard of Innovation

04:30 – Three New Mandates for CMOs: Tech, Strategy & Lifecycle

06:50 – The CMO as a Change Agent and Team Builder

08:30 – Tech CMOs Are Leading—Who’s Catching Up?

10:15 – Building Tech Credibility as a Marketing Leader

12:10 – “Nothing Returned to Normal” After COVID

13:30 – Post-COVID Turnover: What CEOs and Boards Want Now

15:30 – What’s Replacing the Traditional CMO Role?

17:10 – Why Org Design Is a Top Priority in CMO Searches

19:05 – How Companies Realize They Need Org Restructuring

20:45 – The AI Era: Is There a Leadership Gap Forming?

22:20 – What Agile Leadership Actually Looks Like

24:00 – What Resumes Reveal: Pivot Points and Risk-Taking

25:10 – Why References Matter More Than Ever

27:00 – Final Advice: CMOs, Build Your Own Personal Brand

28:40 – Wrap Up & Where to Find More CMO Confidential Content

#CMOConfidential #PeriHansen  @kornferryintl  #ChiefMarketingOfficer #Leadership #OrgDesign #CustomerExperience #MarketingStrategy #PersonalBrand #ExecutiveSearch #CMOInsights

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A CMO Confidential Interview with Dan Salkey, Co-Founder & Strategy Partner at Small World, an agency designed to create "entertainment first" brands. Dan discusses the concept of "Entertain or Die," the difference between "owning" and "renting" eyeballs, and why his focus is on "saves, likes, and shares." Key topics include: the fact that attention is earned; the difference between entertaining and selling; why many tech brands forget to entertain; and how to measure "attentive cost" versus cost per impression. Tune in to hear case studies on Liquid Death and Duolingo and why Net Scout produced a Werner Herzog film.

In this episode of CMO Confidential, Mike Linton sits down with Dan Salkey, Co-Founder and Strategy Partner at Small World, an agency on a mission to create entertainment-first brands. Dan unpacks his provocative framework: “Entertain or Die.” From building brand characters to measuring success in saves and shares—not impressions—this conversation is packed with insights for CMOs navigating the new attention economy.

🧠 Learn why the best brands own their eyeballs instead of renting them, what marketers can learn from creators like MrBeast, and why  @netscoutinc  made a Werner Herzog documentary to stand out.

🔍 Featuring case studies from Liquid Death, Duolingo, and other unexpected brand entertainers, this episode offers a blueprint for building marketing that actually gets watched—and shared.

🎯 Topics Covered:

• The rise of entertainment-first branding

• “Saves, likes, and shares” as new core KPIs

• Measuring attentive cost vs. cost per impression

• The hidden power of brand characters and mascots

• Why marketers need a writer’s room mindset

• How boring B2B brands can still break through

Subscribe to CMO Confidential for weekly insights from top marketing executives, strategists, and creators.

Dan Salkey, Entertainment First Marketing, CMO Confidential, Mike Linton, Small World Agency, Liquid Death Marketing, Duolingo Brand Strategy, Branded Content, Entertain or Die, Brand Characters, Marketing Strategy 2025, Attention Economy, NetScout Werner Herzog, MrBeast Brand Playbook, Content Marketing, Virality Metrics, Branded Entertainment, Marketing Innovation, Social Media Marketing, Save and Share Strategy, B2B Brand Breakthrough, Branded Documentary, Marketing Podcast

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A CMO Confidential Interview with Andy Sack and Adam Brotman, Co-Founders and Co-CEO's of Forum 3, authors of the book AI First, previously at Microsoft and Starbucks. They discuss why AI is different from previous technology advances and the series of "Holy Shit!" moments experienced when interviewing Sam Altman, Bill Gates and others. Key topics include: their belief that AI is "moving faster than you think" since it isn't constrained by an adoption curve or infrastructure; the power of Artificial General Intelligence which will be smarter than most experts; why trying to calculate the ROI of AI is comparable to measuring the return on electricity; and the possibility of 95% of marketing and agency jobs being impacted over the next 5 years. Tune in to hear how Chat GPT scored a top grade on the AP Biology Exam, how Moderna became an AI leader, and their tips for staying near the front of the wave.

This week on CMO Confidential, host Mike Linton sits down with Adam Brotman, former Chief Digital Officer of Starbucks and co-CEO of J.Crew, and Andy Sack, venture capitalist and Managing Partner at Keen Capital. Together they co-authored AI First and co-founded Forum3, a company on a mission to educate businesses on how to thrive in the AI era.

In this episode, Adam and Andy recount their interviews with leaders like Sam Altman, Bill Gates, and Reid Hoffman—and unpack why we are at a true “Holy Sh*t Moment” in technology.

Learn how generative AI is poised to replace 95% of marketing tasks, what agentic AI means for the future of work, and why marketers need to shift from campaign thinking to orchestration and system design—fast.

Topics Covered:

• What Adam and Andy learned from interviewing tech’s top minds

• Why artificial general intelligence (AGI) is closer than you think

• How AI tools will transform agency and in-house marketing roles

• Why marketers must experiment now—or risk irrelevance

• The unexpected productivity ROI of adopting AI tools

This episode isn’t just about AI—it’s about how business leaders and marketers must transform to remain relevant in the age of exponential change.

00:00 - Intro & AI-Powered Marketing by Publicis Sapient

01:42 - Welcome + Adam Brotman & Andy Sack intro

04:45 - Why “AI First” started as “Our AI Journey”

08:13 - The “Holy Sh*t” moment explained

10:00 - Interviewing Sam Altman and the AGI revelation

15:50 - Bill Gates’ AI holy sh*t moment

20:30 - What AGI means for marketers and agencies

25:20 - Agentic AI and spinning up marketing agents

30:40 - Consumer behavior and synthetic influencers

34:50 - How agencies must evolve or die

38:20 - The case study of Moderna's AI-first approach

41:00 - Evaluating AI vendors + building internal councils

45:10 - The ROI of AI: Productivity & Unlocks

49:00 - Playbook for becoming an AI-first org

52:30 - Funny poker shirt story + parting advice

56:00 - Closing thoughts and next episode teaser

#GenerativeAI #CMOConfidential #AdamBrotman #AndySack #Forum3 #MarketingAI #AIInMarketing #AIRevolution #HolyShitMoment #AIFirst #SamAltman #BillGates #AGI #MarketingPodcast #DigitalTransformation #FutureOfWork #AIProductivity #ChiefMarketingOfficer #CMOLife #AIPlaybook #MarketingLeadership #AIForBusiness

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A CMO Confidential Interview with Michael Treff, the CEO of Code + Theory, a growing 2000 person agency which combines technology and creativity. Michael discusses the disruption in consumer behavior, why B2B client service is becoming more holistic, and why companies should "go on offense" in a time of uncertainty. Key topics include: The strategic question of "What do you want your humans to be doing;" his belief that there will be a growing demand for ROI on tech spending; how everyone can become a creative change agent; and why he hates the concept of "The Big Idea." Tune in to hear the lesson of "prompt engineers" and an analogy of how playing in a punk band is like learning to use AI.

In this week’s episode of CMO Confidential, five-time CMO Mike Linton is joined by Michael Treff, CEO of award-winning agency Code and Theory for a no-holds-barred discussion on why most AI strategies are missing the point.

Treff—who leads an agency named B2B Agency of the Year by Ad Age and innovation standout by Fast Company—argues that leaders are mistaking AI tools for strategy. Instead, he lays out a bold case for orchestration—aligning people, tools, and data across the enterprise to drive real customer value. Together, Mike and Michael unpack:

• Why B2B marketers need to stop treating customers like corporate buyers and start treating them like humans.

• Why defensive strategies during disruption are a recipe for irrelevance.

• The myth of the “big idea”—and why creativity has been democratized.

• Why prompt engineers were never the future.

• What AI orchestration really means—and how it can finally connect data silos, unify customer journeys, and drive performance.

Whether you’re a CMO, agency leader, or aspiring executive, this is an unmissable playbook for navigating AI disruption, avoiding short-sighted efficiency traps, and building brands that thrive.

🎧 Listen now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or watch the full episode on YouTube.

🔗 Sponsored by  @PublicisSapient  — Smarter marketing, happier teams, wow-worthy customer moments.

Visit: https://www.publicissapient.com

#CMOConfidential #MarketingLeadership #AIinMarketing #MichaelTreff #CodeAndTheory #B2BMarketing #CMOStrategy #MarTech #MarketingPodcast #MarketingAI #MikeLinton #BrandStrategy #DigitalTransformation

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⏱️ YouTube Chapter Timestamps:

00:00 - Welcome to CMO Confidential

01:15 - Meet Michael Treff, CEO of Code and Theory

03:08 - AI Disruption in B2B: Humanizing the Customer

06:00 - Why B2B Requires a Holistic Customer Lens

08:47 - Agency Mergers & The Death of the Middle

11:35 - Scale vs. Focus: Who Wins in Holding Company Wars?

14:10 - Leadership in an Anxious Market: Offense vs. Defense

17:25 - Code and Theory’s Internal AI Transformation

20:15 - The Myth of the Prompt Engineer

22:10 - Why Most AI Strategies Are Flawed

25:00 - Connecting People, Tools, and Data with AI

27:15 - Democratizing Creativity: What It Really Means

30:00 - Why the Big Idea is Dead (and What Comes Next)

32:25 - Predictions for 2025 in B2B, Tech & AI

34:05 - Final Advice: Everyone Can Lead Change

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Nancie discusses her "brand fix" classifications of refine, purposefully manage, and transform, how to get started with data even when money and time are tight, some "Taylor Swift" approaches to brand work, and the difference between mission and brand. Key topics include: how to get the organization in harmony; why "The Big Reveal" is usually the wrong way to go; and her belief that both Sephora and Apple are losing brand steam. Tune in to hear case studies on Georgetown, The Mayo Clinic, and Samsung and a humorous story about a heart attack.

You were brought in to fix the brand… but what exactly does that mean? In this week’s episode of CMO Confidential, host and 5x CMO Mike Linton sits down with brand strategist Nancie McDonnell Ruder, founder of Noetic Consulting, to unpack the real-world challenges behind “fixing” a brand.

From navigating crises at major healthcare institutions to helping Georgetown University build brand alignment across decentralized marketing teams, Nancie shares her proven frameworks and hard-won insights on strengthening brands from the inside out.

They discuss:

• The difference between a brand crisis, a refinement, and a transformation

• What to do when your brand is suffering—but the real problem lies elsewhere

• Why internal alignment and education are non-negotiable for brand success

• The 5 best practices for brand revitalization (with names like Taylor Swift songs!)

• Brand fails to avoid—including the “Big Reveal” trap and skipping customer data

• And yes… the show ends with a heart attack, mouth-to-mouth CPR, and a forehead kiss (you’ll just have to listen)

00:00 – Intro: Welcome & episode setup

01:02 – What does it really mean to “fix the brand”?

03:45 – The Georgetown University brand refinement case

06:25 – Standing up a brand for the first time (Mayo Clinic example)

08:55 – Brand crisis vs. product/perception issue: How to tell the difference

11:40 – Diagnosing the real problem: What does the data say?

14:05 – Samsung’s brand affinity challenge and how they solved it

16:20 – The 5 best practices for brand revitalization (Taylor Swift edition)

19:45 – Worst practices: The “big reveal,” internal misalignment, and ignoring skeptics

23:05 – The importance of activating the brand internally

25:30 – Brands to watch: Sephora, Apple, and Domino’s

28:20 – Funniest brand moment: A heart attack, CPR, and unexpected teamwork

31:15 – Final takeaway + Mike’s sauceless pizza story

33:30 – Outro: Upcoming episodes and where to subscribe

If you’re a CMO, CEO, board member, or founder facing brand issues—or aiming to avoid them—this episode is your toolkit.

🔔 Subscribe to stay on top of what it really takes to lead marketing at the highest level.

📥 Newsletter with top takeaways drops every Friday: https://cmoconfidential.substack.com

CMO Confidential, Mike Linton, Nancie McDonnell Ruder, brand strategy, fix the brand, brand transformation, brand refinement, marketing strategy, CMO insights, internal alignment, brand health, Noetic Consulting, Georgetown University marketing, Mayo Clinic brand, Samsung brand case, leadership mistakes, brand campaign, CMO podcast, top marketing podcast, marketing leadership, executive marketing, board-level strategy, brand storytelling, marketing turnaround, nonprofit marketing, higher ed marketing, Apple brand erosion, Domino’s case study, Taylor Swift brand songs, marketing best practices

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A CMO Confidential Interview with Dr. Eugene Soltes, Harvard Business School Professor and author of "Why They Do It - Inside the Mind of the White Collar Criminal". Eugene discusses how most crimes start out as small, often unnoticed decisions made by strategic people, how nearly everyone has a chance to step over the line, why many companies (Air BnB, Uber, AI) take regulatory risk, and how culture drives poor individual choices. Key topics include: when puffery gets murky; why it's dangerous to "convince yourself;" why it doesn't matter "who signed off;" and the "fraud triangle." Listen in to hear why humility and counterpoints are critical, what he learned about risk assessment from the Free Solo climber, the "difference between being an arms dealer and a transportation company," and how there are "a million ways to pay a bribe."

In Part 2 of our conversation with Harvard Business School professor and author of Why They Do It, Dr. Eugene Soltes, we dive even deeper into the ethical gray zones that surround today’s most ambitious companies. From social media firms that hide behind “just connecting people” to leaders who convince themselves their actions are justified, Eugene explains how culture, rationalization, and groupthink drive even the smartest executives into trouble.

You’ll learn why having a sign-off from Legal is never enough, why the “show me where it says I can’t” culture is so corrosive, and why CMOs must understand the difference between business risk and integrity risk. We also hear Eugene’s story of climbing (briefly) with Free Solo legend Alex Honnold and how that shaped his thinking around open-eyed risk—a model every marketing leader should understand.

Topics include:

• Why CMOs can’t hide behind Legal

• The “arms dealer” mindset in corporate marketing

• Risk culture vs. innovation culture

• How companies accidentally incentivize bad behavior

• Psychological safety vs. performative candor

• The million ways bribes get disguised

• The importance of personal humility—even in the C-Suite

📌 Sponsored by  @PublicisSapient  – AI marketing platforms for personalization

00:00 – Intro

01:00 – Welcome Back: Convincing Yourself It’s Okay

Mike and Eugene dive into self-deception and ethical gray zones in corporate decisions.

02:10 – Don’t Count on the Sign-Off

Why “someone else signed off” isn’t a defense, and the importance of owning your decisions.

03:30 – The Explain-to-Your-Spouse Test

Eugene’s replacement for the outdated “newspaper test” of ethical clarity.

04:45 – Know What You’re Signing Up For

Ignorance as a leadership failure and why it’s never an excuse.

06:00 – Taking Ethical Stands as a Marketer

What to do when legal says it’s okay but your gut says otherwise.

07:15 – Integrity vs. Strategic Risk

A key distinction for marketers: smart business risk vs. ethical risk.

08:20 – “A Million Ways to Pay a Bribe”

Creative examples of corruption and why culture enables them.

10:15 – The “Show Me Where It Says I Can’t” Culture

How policy loopholes can foster ethical erosion.

12:00 – The Role of Legal and Compliance

How to use counsel the right way—not just for CYA.

14:00 – The Fraud Triangle + Rationalization Risk

How pressure, opportunity, and rationalization lead to ethical drift.

15:45 – Everyone Has the Chance to Be the Bad Apple

The universal risk of stepping over the line—and why culture matters.

16:30 – Regulatory Arbitrage: Uber, AI, and the Gray Zone

Why innovation often requires pushing boundaries—and accepting consequences.

18:00 – Free Solo Climbing and Open-Eyed Risk

What Eugene learned about risk from Alex Honnold and what CMOs can take from it.

20:30 – Evaluating Risk from Multiple Angles

Why great leaders view risk with humility and diversity of perspective.

22:00 – Groupthink and the Myth of Momentum

The danger of unchecked optimism and lack of internal dissent.

23:30 – The Limits of Mandated Psychological Safety

Why culture change can’t be legislated—and how real safety is built.

24:30 – Final Question: Funny Story or Practical Advice

Eugene’s “most awkward moment” and his parting advice on cultivating humility.

27:00 – Wrap-Up and Upcoming Episodes

Mike closes out with highlights from other case-based episodes.

Eugene Soltes, Harvard Business School, white collar crime, CMO Confidential, Mike Linton, ethical marketing, corporate risk, compliance and marketing, groupthink, fraud triangle, Free Solo risk, Alex Honnold business, regulatory arbitrage, arms dealer logic, psychological safety, puffery vs fraud, legal sign-off, integrity in marketing, Publicis Sapient, personalized marketing AI, marketing leadership, executive ethics, culture of compliance, corporate governance, CMOs and risk

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