In the second part of Holly's deep dive with Meg Josephson, they shift from understanding fawning to working with it. Continuing their exploration of Meg's book "Are You Mad At Me?", the conversation explores perfectionism as a protective mechanism, "secondhand fawning" through others, and the core shame beliefs that drive these patterns. Meg explains how healing happens through secure relationships and offers a compassionate framework for understanding these survival mechanisms. Holly reflects on how recognizing her fawn response has been foundational to her healing journey.

Topics Covered

The fawn trauma response and what it looks like; The six fawn archetypes (peacekeeper, caretaker, perfectionist, performer, chameleon, lone wolf); Complex relational trauma vs. single-incident trauma; How fawning develops as a survival mechanism in volatile homes; The intersection of fawning with ADHD and neurodivergence; Why digital communication amplifies "are you mad at me?" feelings; Chronic dysregulation and nervous system impacts; The connection between fawning and masking behaviors; Hypervigilance and external validation-seeking; How fawning shows up in romantic relationships.

Meg Josephson Bio

Meg Josephson is a licensed therapist, meditation teacher, and author of "Are You Mad at Me? A Guide to Caring Less About What People Think." She integrates mindfulness-based practices with trauma-informed therapy, specializing in the fawn trauma response. After recognizing her own chronic hypervigilance patterns in her twenties, she discovered meditation during concussion recovery and pursued graduate training in therapy. Her work focuses on complex relational trauma and helping clients develop self-compassion for protective patterns that no longer serve them.

Meg’s new book Are You Mad At Me? Is out now. She writes the Substack Peace of Mind. You can follow Meg on Instagram and TikTok.

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producers: Holly Whitaker, Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Transcript available on patreon

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Part 2 of this is available now on patreon for patrons of this show! Check us out here.

In this first installment of a two-part series with therapist Meg Josephson, Holly and Meg unpack the fawn trauma response - the fourth trauma response that leaves people constantly wondering, "Are you mad at me?" Drawing from her new book of the same title (Are You Mad At Me?), Meg gives language to this internal hypervigilance that develops as a childhood survival mechanism. Holly shares her journey of recognizing chronic dysregulation and fawning patterns. They explore how this response intersects with neurodivergence, addiction recovery, and our digitally connected world that amplifies these feelings.

Topics Covered

The fawn trauma response and what it looks like; The six fawn archetypes (peacekeeper, caretaker, perfectionist, performer, chameleon, lone wolf); Complex relational trauma vs. single-incident trauma; How fawning develops as a survival mechanism in volatile homes; The intersection of fawning with ADHD and neurodivergence; Why digital communication amplifies "are you mad at me?" feelings; Chronic dysregulation and nervous system impacts; The connection between fawning and masking behaviors; Hypervigilance and external validation-seeking; How fawning shows up in romantic relationships

Meg Josephson Bio

Meg Josephson is a licensed therapist, meditation teacher, and author of "Are You Mad at Me? A Guide to Caring Less About What People Think." She integrates mindfulness-based practices with trauma-informed therapy, specializing in the fawn trauma response. After recognizing her own chronic hypervigilance patterns in her twenties, she discovered meditation during concussion recovery and pursued graduate training in therapy. Her work focuses on complex relational trauma and helping clients develop self-compassion for protective patterns that no longer serve them.

Meg’s new book Are You Mad At Me? Is out now. She writes the Substack Peace of Mind. You can follow Meg on Instagram and TikTok.

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producers: Holly Whitaker, Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Transcript available here

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Holly and Laura sit down for their first public conversation in seven years, since the abrupt end of their previous podcast, Home, after a falling out. Peeling back the layers of what is, for each of them, their most complicated creative partnership and friendship. What started as two women finding each other on Instagram in 2013, who wanted to talk about sobriety and alcohol, became the wildly successful Home Podcast, a deep friendship, and eventually a painful, public dissolution that left both women changed forever. Now, after multiple reconciliations and breakups, they've found their way back to each other—not as business partners or co-hosts, but as friends who've done the hard work of growing up. This raw conversation explores the messy intersection of trauma, creativity, competition, and love, offering a rare glimpse into what it looks like when two people refuse to give up on each other despite repeatedly hurting each other in the process.

Topics covered

Meeting on Instagram in early sobriety; the birth of Home Podcast in 2015; being two women talking about recovery in ways no one else was; rapid success and community building; the impossible dynamics of creative partnership between two traumatized people; patterns of competition and jealousy; the first breakup and reconciliation; the final dissolution of Home Podcast in January 2018; years of mutual obsession and surveillance from afar; failed attempts at reunion around book launches; the role of public success and private failure; learning to see each other's survival mechanisms; cord-cutting ceremonies and spiritual interventions; multiple cycles of coming together and falling apart; the 2025 reconciliation weekend; the difference between creative partnership and friendship; aging out of ambition; post-material achievement disillusionment; trauma responses that look like abuse; the challenge of being seen accurately; the rare gift of creative collaboration; narcissistic abuse patterns; the cost of cutting people off; what it means to grow up in public.

Bio

Laura is the author of the bestselling memoir, We Are The Luckiest: The Surprising Magic of a Sober Life and Push Off From Here: Nine Essential Truths to Get You Through Life (and Everything Else), March 2023. She's working on her third book. She has written for The New York Times and has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, The Atlantic, the TODAY show, and more. In 2020, she founded The Luckiest Club, a global sobriety support community. Laura lives with her daughter on the North Shore of Boston and writes the stellar newsletter Love Story.

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producers: Holly Whitaker, Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Holly reunites with her friend, feminist theologian Meggan Watterson, to discuss her new book The Girl Who Baptized Herself Their conversation moves between Watterson's childhood religious trauma, academic mission to recover suppressed women's voices in early Christianity, and what it means to be called a heretic for telling the truth about women's spiritual authority. With raw vulnerability, both women explore how ancient stories of resistance mirror our current moment under Christian nationalism and an increasingly fascist America, the difference between going inward v. seeking external validation, and why small communities might be our salvation. This dialogue weaves personal transformation with spiritual rebellion, examining how the same patriarchal forces that silenced women 2000 years ago are still trying to control us today.

Topics Covered

Feminist theology; reclaiming spiritual authority; suppressed Gnostic gospels, lost women's voices in Christianity; Thecla's story and the heroines journey; Constantine's co-optation of Christianity and the Council of Nicea; Mary Magdalene's true role versus her portrayal as a prostitute; bodily reactions to patriarchal doctrine; the diff btw transcendence and embodied spirituality; personal transformation through going inward during crisis; addiction patterns and the process of "getting sober sober"; the power of small communities versus institutional collapse; where the eff are the men/the "good man's" complicity and refusal to educate themselves on feminist issues and their own patriarchal narrative; living as a dissident under Christian nationalism; breaking free from external validation and worth-proving; the role of vulnerability, truth-telling in healing.

About Meggan

Meggan Watterson is a renowned feminist theologian and the Wall Street Journal bestselling author of Mary Magdalene Revealed. She has a Master of Theological Studies from Harvard Divinity School and a Master of Divinity from Union Theological Seminary at Columbia University. She created The House of Mary Magdalene—a spiritual community that studies sacred texts left out of the traditional canon. Her work has appeared in media outlets such as The New York Times, The Huffington Post, TEDxWomen, and Marie Claire. Meggan writes the Substack The Girl Who Baptized Herself and her new book The Girl Who Baptized Herself is out now.

“Now more than ever, we need this two-thousand-year-old story to remind us that our power is not in any external force, but within. And that it is with our own self-authority, our own self-blessing, and our own naked revolt to claim it. This isn’t a story; it’s a playbook.”—Holly Whitaker, author of Quit Like a Woman

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producers: Holly Whitaker, Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Erica Chidi shares her unique perspective on navigating crisis and uncertainty, drawing from her formative years in post-apartheid South Africa and her work as a doula, author, and founder. She discusses how current global events represent a collective consciousness shift where "everybody's here now," forcing those who previously remained disconnected to engage with reality. Erica offers practical wisdom on nervous system regulation during turbulent times, emphasizing presence over emotional labeling and the critical importance of sleep, movement, and community. She advocates for "narrow and deep" activism—becoming obsessive about one specific cause rather than spreading thin—and shares how her neurodivergent traits, including "chaotic discipline," serve as adaptive superpowers during uncertain times. Throughout the discussion, she weaves together lessons from growing up amid post-apartheid violence with actionable tools for moving through crisis with intention, including her concept of developing an "inner metronome" through personal rituals and the power of treating words as spells that shape our reality.

Topics covered

Crisis navigation and nervous system regulation; post-apartheid South Africa lessons for current times; "narrow and deep" activism strategy; neurodivergent strengths during chaos; chaotic discipline and adaptive capabilities; sleep hygiene as non-negotiable foundation; movement for emotional processing; inner metronome development through personal rituals; financial and energetic discernment; local action and community building; words as spells and language's impact on reality; strategic escapism versus dissociation; embracing friction while staying present; creative expression during systemic dysfunction; managing multiple mental health diagnoses while maintaining presence

About Erica

Erica Chidi is a writer, strategist, and health educator with a background as a full-spectrum doula. She’s the co-founder and former CEO of LOOM, a women’s health app acquired by Perelel Health, and the author of Nurture, a beloved guide to pregnancy, birth, and early motherhood. Her work has appeared in The New York Times and Vogue, and she’s been featured in The Cut, Kinfolk, and more. She also spent two years co-hosting The goop Podcast, leading conversations at the intersection of wellbeing and culture. These days, she splits her time between innovation consulting, developing television through her creative studio ISE ISE (pronounced “ee-say ee-say”), and writing Soft Boundaries—a Substack of personal essays, soothing tools, and useful advice for softly exploring your inner world.

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producers: Holly Whitaker, Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Support the show

co-regulation is listener-supported! You can support us by joining our Patreon community patreon.com/coregulation

Transcript

https://www.patreon.com/posts/133600127/

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Writer, podcaster, polymath, and intellectual synthesizer Elise Loehnen joins Holly for a wide-ranging exploration of how to navigate our current cultural moment with wisdom, nuance, and hope. From her unexpected journey from being the 2nd in command at Goop to becoming one of today's most thoughtful cultural commentators, Elise shares how she maintains optimism while grappling with the full complexity of our times. This conversation weaves together threads of spiritual practice, political engagement, shadow integration, and the essential work of staying regulated in a dysregulated world.

Topics Covered

Identity and Intellectual Formation; Action vs. Contemplation - A deep dive into Richard Rohr's framework of putting action before contemplation, exploring how lived experience must inform our thinking and how to translate vertical spiritual connection into horizontal real-world engagement; The Energy We Bring - Discussion of how our vibration affects what we create, the responsibility of staying regulated during crisis, and why matching others' anxiety isn't loyalty but rather feeds collective fear and regression; Navigating Activism and Writing - Honest examination of the tension between direct action and contemplative work, exploring different roles in social movements and the challenge of maintaining your authentic contribution while feeling pressure to do "everything"; The Nature of Evil - Extensive exploration of M. Scott Peck's "People of the Lie," discussing whether evil exists, how shadow work relates to collective healing, and the danger of both denying darkness and being consumed by it; Cancel Culture and Shadow Projection - Analysis of how progressive movements created their own shadow through moral exclusion, the scapegoat mechanism in modern culture, and why we need to reclaim our projected darkness to create real change; Optimism in Dark Times - Elise shares the spiritual experiences that transformed her worldview, her practice of holding both horror and hope, and why she believes we're at a breaking point that could lead to genuine breakthrough rather than breakdown.

About

Elise Loehnen is a writer, podcaster, and cultural critic whose work synthesizes wisdom traditions, psychology, and social commentary. Former Chief Content Officer at Goop, she's the author of "On Our Best Behavior" and co-author with Phil Stutz of "Coming Alive." Her weekly newsletter and podcast "Pulling the Thread" explore the intersection of spirituality, culture, and personal development. She reads 50-100 books annually and has become one of the most trusted voices for readers seeking intellectual depth without academic pretension. Based between New York and California, she continues to bridge seemingly disparate worlds of thought into coherent frameworks for understanding our complex times.

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producers: Holly Whitaker, Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Support the show

co-regulation is listener-supported! You can support us by joining our Patreon community patreon.com/coregulation

Transcript

https://www.patreon.com/posts/133600127/

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Producer note: The term 'feministing' was coined by Jessica Vlenti for her groundbreaking feminist blog Feministing.com (2004-2019), which was instrumental in shaping online feminist discourse during the height of feminist digital media.

Holly sits down with feminist writer and author Amanda Montei to explore what it means to be Outspoken Intellectual Feminist in what feels like the height of feminist backlash. Montei, author of "Touched Out," opens up about her recent divorce, the collapse of feminist movements, and how she's navigating the intersection of personal upheaval and political crisis. The discussion delves into the challenges of writing under authoritarianism, the exhaustion that comes with constant resistance, and finding hope amidst the acceleration of anti-feminist backlash. Montei shares her evolution from academic writer to cultural critic, her commitment to teaching, and her decision to pivot toward more nuanced and aesthetic interpretations of our moment, rather than offering hot takes. This intimate conversation captures the complexity of maintaining feminist work when the world feels like it's falling apart.

Topics covered

Feminist writing in the Trump 2.0; divorce, marriage critique; collapse of feminist media; anti-feminism in liberal spaces; motherhood + patriarchal structures; misogyny in the 2024 election; cancel culture myths; the commodification of feminism; academic vs. public intellectual work; teaching as resistance; personal vs. political writing; fear + surveillance concerns; community building during crisis; the nuclear family as capitalist invention; movement fragmentation; artistic response to authoritarianism; protecting creative work; privilege and responsibility; collective vs. individual action; finding hope in dark times; the exhaustion of resistance work; white supremacy and patriarchy connections; memoir writing and self-revelation

About

Amanda Montei has a PhD in English literature from SUNY at Buffalo and an MFA in Writing from California Institute of the Arts. She is also the author of Two Memoirs and Touched Out. Her essays and criticism have appeared at Slate, Vox, The Rumpus, Ms. Magazine blog, American Book Review, and others. She teaches writing and lives in California. She writes the Substack Mad Woman and is the co-host of the podcast Dire Straights (CHECK IT OUT)

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producers: Holly Whitaker, hollywhitaker.com; Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Support the show

co-regulation is listener-supported! You can support us by joining our Patreon community patreon.com/coregulation

Transcript

Available on patreon.com/coregulation

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Holly talks w/Dr. Carl Erik Fisher, addiction psychiatrist and author of The Urge, about the intersection of narcissism and addiction in our current cultural moment, and the paradox of how recovery culture itself can create new forms of self-obsession and addiction.

Key themes discussed: Living through institutional collapse and staying grounded; Anna Lembke's theory that endemic narcissism drives peak addiction; distinguishing between grandiose vs vulnerable narcissism and trait vs process narcissism; how 12-step programs were designed to deflate powerful men's egos but modern recovery often demands constant self-optimization; the difference between false refuges (money, power, status) and true refuges (community, spiritual connection, service); "ontological addiction" as attachment to fixed self-concepts; Carl's forthcoming book on self-control thru various forms of losing control; the need for healthy narcissism vs toxic self-obsession; navigating recovery in era that demands constant self-performance.

About Carl Eric Fisher

Carl Erik Fisher is an addiction physician, bioethicist, person in recovery, and author of The Urge: Our History of Addiction, named one of the best books of the year by The New Yorker and The Boston Globe. His writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, and elsewhere. An associate professor at Columbia University, he draws from his academic studies, clinical work, and personal experience to explore addiction, self-control, and flourishing at the Substack newsletter Rat Park.

Carl's Substack newsletter: Rat Park

Carl's book: The Urge: Our History of Addiction available at Bookshop.org

Carl's website: carlerikfisher.com

Carl's podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/flourishing-after-addiction-with-carl-erik-fisher/id1581713114

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates of Gracie and Rachel @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producer: Holly Whitaker, hollywhitaker.com

Co-Producers: Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Support the show

co-regulation is listener-supported, made possible by us and by you; you can support this podcast by joining our Patreon community patreon.com/coregulation

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Holly reconnects with her friend and former podcast co-host (Quitted) Emily McDowell for a raw conversation about how extreme adversity can strip away everything that doesn't matter and reveal what does. After years of health crises, family loss, and business transitions, Emily describes arriving at a place of No Fucks Given that feels like coming home to herself. Together, they explore what it means to build real community, trust your body's wisdom, and stop proving yourself to the world.

Topics covered include how selling her business and facing health challenges (brain tumor, autoimmune thyroid condition) led Emily to question everything; the impact of her mother's sudden death on her relationship with money, work, and pleasure; Holly's parallel journey of family awakening and learning to trust her body over her mind; practical strategies for building intentional adult friendships with agreements and conflict resolution; the difference between self-love and self-friendship; why real community is inconvenient but necessary; discernment in relationships without guilt; and the shift from constantly striving to arriving in your own life.

About Emily McDowell

As an advisor, thought partner, and coach, Emily McDowell helps entrepreneurs answer the questions they can’t find the answers to. As founder and CEO of the stationery brand Em & Friends, Emily led the brand through explosive growth, and as a writer and illustrator, her work has gone viral countless times, and she has a decade-plus long track record of creating products that make people wonder if she’s been reading their diaries. Emily is also the co-author and illustrator of There Is No Good Card for This: What to Say and Do When Life Gets Scary, Awful, and Unfair to People You Love (HarperOne, 2017), and she offers unsolicited advice and missives from the great adventure of midlife in her newsletter, Subject to Change, a Substack Featured Publication of 2023. You can find her online at withemilymcdowell.com, and IRL in Portland, Oregon.

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producer: Holly Whitaker, hollywhitaker.com

Co-Producers: Adam Day, Afton Swenor

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Support the show

co-regulation is listener-supported, made possible by us and by you; you can support this podcast by joining our Patreon community patreon.com/coregulation

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Holly sits down with J Wortham, NYT Magazine staff writer, co-host of the Still Processing podcast, and co-editor of the anthology Black Futures. In this wide-ranging conversation, they explore how to navigate authoritarian times through spiritual practice, community building, and practical survivalism, while examining the tension between ambition and enoughness in creative work.

Topics covered

They discuss why current upheaval isn't new for people who've survived oppression; J's evolution from tech journalism to culture writing through curiosity rather than ambition; the collapse of arts funding + how institutions are becoming irrelevant; moving beyond performative activism toward genuine relationship + conflict resolution; practical survivalism rooted in mutual aid rather than individualistic prepping; learning skills like fermentation, sewing, fire-making as acts of self-reliance and community care; the difference btw online/ offline community building with high barriers to entry and no easy exits; Hurricane Sandy as a radicalizing moment about infrastructure failure and mutual aid; why black people are "early adopters" who see cultural shifts before they become mainstream; spiritual practices including ancestor reverence and staying present during uncertainty; the corrupting nature of external validation versus doing good work at a manageable scale; how trauma responses can inform healthy preparedness without falling into scarcity thinking; and building solidarity across difference through embracing rather than avoiding conflict.

About J Wortham

J Wortham (they/them) is a sound healer, herbalist, and community care worker, a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine, co-host of the podcast ‘Still Processing,, writer of the channeling newsletter, editor of the visual anthology “Black Futures,” and is also currently working on a book for Penguin Press. 

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producer: Holly Whitaker, hollywhitaker.com

Co-Producers: Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Support the show

co-regulation is listener-supported, made possible by us and by you; you can support this podcast by joining our Patreon community patreon.com/coregulation

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.