Code 3 - The Firefighters Podcast

One of the first tools you were taught about when you started this job is the basic ground

ladder.

Once you learned how to throw one, it was no big deal, right? The longer the ladder, the more firefighters get to carry it. Except…

What if there’s not enough people on the fireground to do that?

You might be surprised to find that the 24-foot extension ladder can safely be carried and placed by just one firefighter.

Now, a lot of understaffed fire departments, especially volunteers, already know this. But if you started at a fully-staffed department, you may not have had to throw a ladder this size alone.

Today’s guest runs seminars on the use of ground ladders, and this is one of his favorite topics.

Kevin Weis started his career in the fire service in 2012 as a volunteer firefighter in Coldwater, Ohio. He’s been on the career side since 2014, starting in Defiance, Ohio. In 2020, he moved to the Glendale, Arizona Fire Department.

Kevin’s currently

a firefighter/ paramedic and specializes in TRT & Haz Mat. He’s also been a

fire inspector.

He teaches

several hands-on-subjects, including search

tactics, forcible entry, hose line management, and of course, ground  ladders.

One of the least exciting jobs for a firefighter is the dreaded Community Risk Reduction assignment.

In an urban environment, CRR may mean doing a meeting with the people you serve. Or maybe you’re changing smoke alarm batteries.

Either of those—not exciting, but not so much work, either.

But if your department covers urban and rural areas, where you could be tasked to fight a brush fire, well, now you may have to do some physical labor ... plus those meetings.

Not all, or even many, departments have dedicated crews to community risk reduction. Often, CRR is one person, whose job may include other responsibilities.

Today, I’m talking with one of our favorite guests, Chad Costa, about what CRR can do for your community…and what you can get out of it, too.

Chad is assistant fire chief for the Petaluma, California, fire department. He has over 25 years on the job.

(This episode is a rebroadcast of a June, 2018 edition of Code 3) On June 30, 2018, the fifth anniversary of the LODD of 19 members of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew at Yarnell Hill, a memorial ceremony was held in Prescott, Arizona, their home base. The brief ceremony commemorated their loss and celebrated their lives. This is the event.

Incident commanders, here are some questions for you:

How much thought do you put into where you set up your command post?

Is it usually on the alpha side of a structure? Why is that? Routine? Street access?

What about distractions? For example, noise. That can not only give you a headache but also make you miss an urgent radio call, right?

My guest on this edition of Code 3 has been considering questions like this for a while. He has suggestions for things to think about the next time you pull up to the fireground and are ready to drop that tailgate.

Robby Bergerson is the executive deputy chief of the Waco, Texas Fire Department. He’s got three decades in the fire service, having served in every rank and supervising every division. He’s also a credentialed Chief Fire Officer through CPSE.

This week’s show is related to last week’s. If you haven’t heard episode 344 with Jennifer Stanislaw, go ahead and listen to it—it dovetails nicely with this one.

On this episode, we’re talking about the importance of setting standards for probie training.

Years ago, that training consisted of handing the probie a mop as often as a ladder. It was designed to “teach a solid work ethic.”

But just as hazing has (mostly) faded away in the firehouse, new firefighters expect better training on the techniques they’ll need in the field. Their bosses expect them to know those tactics as well.

That’s why today’s guest says it's important to set the bar for probies and keep raising it. He has some ideas of how to do that.

Jesse Marcotte is the training chief for the Northville Township, Michigan Fire Department. He is a member of the UL FSRI Training Advisory Committee. And he served as a board member of the ISFSI.

He also spoke on today’s topic at FDIC 2024.

Firefighters around the country are looking at the possibility of a new OSHA ruling very carefully.

I’m talking about the two-in/two-out rule, contained in NFPA 1500.

There’s a new report written by five prominent members of the fire service that says two-in/two-out doesn’t make firefighters any safer. Instead, the time wasted waiting for a RIC crew to get ready makes it more likely that civilian victims will be killed.

The report uses data from Project Mayday to support this claim. It points out that when firefighters die in the line of duty, it isn’t usually in a mayday situation.

It also says that if a mayday is called, it’s more likely that another interior crew member will make the save.

The rule is routinely circumvented by departments that need to get inside a building but don’t have enough people on the fireground to do it.

An OSHA ruling would add some enforcement teeth to NFPA 1500.

The report’s titled, “Removing Two-In/Two-Out: A Modern, Data-supported Defense of Our Core Mission." It was written by Bill Carey, Sean Duffy, Nick Ledin, Chris Thompson and Scott Thompson.

Sean Duffy is acting as the PIO for the group and spoke to me about the report.

From Day One in the fire service, the lecture is the standard teaching method.

Sometimes, it seems like fire departments must keep Microsoft in business, what with all the PowerPoint software they must be ordering.

And you know the instruction -- notice I didn’t say “learning” – keeps going like this until you retire. Want to be a Battalion Chief? There’s a lecture and PowerPoint for that. An Engineer? Yep, got it covered. Captain? Of course.

Now, I know the fire service doesn’t like change. As Chief Brunacini said, "Firefighters hate two things—change and the way things are now.”

But maybe it is time to teach differently. If you’ve ever lectured to a room full of Millennials or Gen Z, you know they don’t get much out of it. They’re on their phones.

Here to explore some fresh ideas for teaching is Jennifer Stanislaw.

She heads up the West Salem, Oregon, High School Emergency Services Program. She also has over 25 years of experience as a paramedic and volunteer firefighter.

Every firefighter who rides an engine has a favorite tool: The Halligan Bar. As nearly all young firefighters learn, it was invented in 1948 by an FDNY Deputy Chief named Hugh Halligan.

Not long after that, he created the Halligan Hook. Sometimes it’s called a New York Roof Hook.

This six-foot bar is a favorite of truckies who need to open up roofs.

But there’s another way to use the Halligan Hook: as a rescue tool.

It takes a little creativity to see a bar meant for ripping open a roof as a way to save a firefighter's life.

Today’s guest is here to explain how to do it.

AB Turenne is the captain of training and safety with a career department in Middlesex County, Connecticut. He’s got 25 years on the job and is a certified Level III Fire Service Instructor.

If you were among those fortunate enough to be in the audience at the opening of FDIC 2024, you heard something special.

I’d say it was a call to arms… a call to take revolutionary action.

Chief David Rhodes spoke for about a half-hour, laying out a case for change in the fire service.

His main argument: that the fire service has become too risk-averse. That the leaders of departments are so afraid of injuries—and of course, lawsuits—that they don’t want firefighters to take any risks on the fireground.

Or even in training.

He said that puts citizens in danger.

And he said that change needs to happen, from the bottom up. It sure won’t come from the top down.

Here to discuss that with me is David Rhodes.

Chief Rhodes had nearly four decades in the fire service when he retired from the Atlanta, Georgia Fire Department. He currently serves as the Editor in Chief of Fire Engineering magazine. He’s also the Educational Director for FDIC.

Fire departments around the U.S. are approaching a tipping point.

At the same time career departments are seeing a drop in applicants, they’re also losing existing firefighters.

This is a problem.

Once upon a time, not so long ago, it was tough to get a job in the fire department.

But now, fewer people line up for those spots.

Maybe it’s generational, maybe it’s just a natural cycle and it’ll change.

Or maybe it’s something more.

Here to discuss that with me is Dr. Reggie Freeman.

He’s the chief risk officer for the HAI Group, based in Cheshire, Connecticut. He’s served as the fire chief of three departments: Oakland, California, Hartfort, Connecticut and Lockheed Martin Aeronautics. He’s also a member of the board of directors of the NFPA.