As part of Confronting the Line’s ongoing examination of how high-control personal development spaces impact real lives, this special series turns our focus to those who entered Landmark and similar LGAT environments as children—before they were old enough to consent, question, or fully understand the systems shaping them.

In this episode, Marlo shares what it was like growing up with a single mother deeply committed to Landmark Education and its transformational philosophy. What promised integrity and personal growth instead created emotional distance, and quickly pulled her mother away.

As Landmark became the center of the family’s world, Marlo was left to navigate a controlling and confusing environment with little support. When she struggled, her pain was reframed as resistance, negativity, or personal failure. She reflects on feeling abandoned, blamed, and gaslit, and on the long shadow that blind loyalty to the group has cast on her relationship with her mother.

Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of verbal abuse, sexual abuse of a child, emotional neglect, and high-control group dynamics. Listener discretion is advised.

This conversation examines what happens when a system that teaches responsibility and integrity doesn’t apply those principles to its own impact, and how children can become collateral damage in the pursuit of transformation.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Get to know Lindsey and her story on the episode we did with her recently E58 Growing Up in Landmark: Introducing Lindsey Hartzel

Join us Beyond the LineIf this conversation resonated, you’re invited to Beyond the Line—our new Patreon community for listeners who want to go deeper. 

Members receive early access to episodes, bonus reflections, and thoughtful discussions that support ethical inquiry, survivor-centered learning, and safer pathways forward. Your membership directly supports this work and helps us keep resources accessible to those who need them most.  https://www.patreon.com/cw/BeyondtheLinesStudio 

FUNDING

Read about how Confronting the Line is funded & our commitment to transparency: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/ 

Your support helps us create thoughtful content, host conversations like this one, and offer accessible learning and support resources—including facilitated healing groups—for people leaving high-demand or coercive environments, regardless of their ability to pay.

If this episode resonated, please subscribe, consider becoming a YouTube Community Member, and share or comment to help others find the conversation.

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted.

What happens when transformational programs reach people before they’re old enough to consent?

In this episode Anne formally introduces Lindsey Hartzel, who will be hosting a special series examining the impact of LGATs on children and teens.

Lindsey shares her own story of growing up inside Landmark Worldwide, and why she believes early exposure to adult-oriented transformational spaces deserves much closer scrutiny.

This conversation explores:

• Childhood participation in Landmark-style programs

• Identity formation before informed consent

• Developmental vulnerability in high-pressure environments

• Why these experiences often go unnamed or misunderstoodWhat ethical inquiry could look like moving forward

This episode lays the groundwork for a series focused on children, consent, and the long-term impact of transformational systems.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

Join us Beyond the LineIf this conversation resonated, you’re invited to Beyond the Line—our new Patreon community for listeners who want to go deeper. 

Members receive early access to episodes, bonus reflections, and thoughtful discussions that support ethical inquiry, survivor-centered learning, and safer pathways forward. Your membership directly supports this work and helps us keep resources accessible to those who need them most.

FUNDING

Read about how Confronting the Line is funded & our commitment to transparency: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/ 

Your support helps us create thoughtful content, host conversations like this one, and offer accessible learning and support resources—including facilitated healing groups—for people leaving high-demand or coercive environments, regardless of their ability to pay.

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted. 

What happens after someone speaks out—and an institution responds?

In this follow-up episode of Confronting the Line, we examine how organizations act when concerns are raised without acknowledging harm.

After Ben Eisenberg shared his experience of growing up inside Landmark Worldwide, Landmark’s Chairman of the Board of Trustees, Harry Rosenberg, responded directly. Shortly afterward, the organization removed references to youth programs from its public-facing websites and stated it has no plans to offer them going forward.

At first glance, this response can appear to reflect institutional maturity. At the same time, the communication does not acknowledge harm or engage the substance of Ben’s lived experience—raising important questions about accountability, self-preservation, and how institutions manage risk when scrutiny increases.

This episode explores:

• Action without acknowledgment

• Institutional maturity vs. self-preservation

• Symbolic change vs. structural change

• Why acknowledging harm is often avoided

• What ethical responsibility actually looks like in practice

Joined by Lindsey Moon Hartzel, we also examine the developmental and neurological impact of high-control environments on children and adolescents—and why consent, identity formation, and nervous system development must be central to any ethical discussion of youth programming.

This episode is not about condemnation. It is about clarity, responsibility, and learning where the line truly is.

FUNDING

Read about how Confronting the Line is funded & our commitment to transparency: https://isthisacultbook.com/confronting-the-line-pod/ 

HOW YOU CAN SUPPORT THIS WORK 

Confronting the Line is a listener-supported project grounded in ethical inquiry and safer learning. Your support helps us create thoughtful content and offer accessible resources for people navigating life after high-demand or coercive groups.

If this episode resonated, please subscribe, consider becoming a YouTube Community Member, and share or comment to help others find the conversation.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Read Ben’s manuscript here https://medium.com/@beneisenberg_10514/my-experience-growing-up-in-landmark-education-landmark-worldwide-1aae2ea2582e 

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted.

In this episode of Confronting the Line, Anne Peterson is joined by her friend and colleague Chris Shelton—former Scientologist and long-time advocate for people recovering from high-control groups.

Together, they unpack a recent online incident involving a Landmark supporter posting what appeared to be insider gossip, disinformation, and misinformation in response to Anne’s work and public commentary.

Rather than reacting emotionally or defensively, Anne and Chris slow the moment down and examine it through a wider lens:

• How insider narratives are used to discredit critics

• Why gossip framed as “inside knowledge” can function as a control tactic
• The difference between disagreement and organized reputational attack
• How high-control groups train members—often unconsciously—to police dissent

• Why critics are framed as “unstable” or “dishonest”
• How group loyalty turns into misinformation
• What healthy disagreement actually looks like
• Or how cult-adjacent dynamics show up outside overt “cults”

Chris draws a direct comparison to Scientology’s well-documented practice known as Fair Game, a policy designed to silence, isolate, or undermine perceived enemies of the group. Anne explores whether similar patterns—even without formal policy—can emerge in other transformational or self-help organizations, including Landmark Worldwide.

This episode is not about attacking individuals.It is about pattern recognition, media literacy, and learning how to spot coercive behaviors before they escalate.

If you’ve ever wondered:

• Why critics are framed as “unstable” or “dishonest”
• How group loyalty turns into misinformation
• What healthy disagreement actually looks like
• Or how cult-adjacent dynamics show up outside overt “cults”

This conversation offers language, context, and tools to think more clearly.RESOURCES & LINKS: Check out Chris’s channel Speaking of Cults    • Speaking of Cults  

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources → https://isthisacultbook.com/

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-...

MODERATION NOTE: Disagreement and critical discussion are welcome. Personal attacks, misinformation, or unverified claims about individuals are not. Comments that derail from the substance of the content may be moderated.

FUNDINGConfronting the Line is independently produced.Transparency about funding, ethics, and scope matters here.Learn more → https://isthisacultbook.com/confronti...

FINALLY Please consider supporting this channel which helps us to offer more and better content and resources such as the healing group w/ Rachel. Contributing also supports the learning and healing needs of folks, no matter their ability to pay, who are waking up to and leaving high demand and cult(ish) groups. Click Subscribe, and consider being YouTube CTL community member and comment on and/or share the episode.

This episode examines the developmental and ethical boundaries of youth participation in transformational programs like Landmark Worldwide. Writer and strategist Ben Eisenberg shares what it means to grow up inside a high-control self-help framework before meaningful consent is possible.

Ben’s work is not a takedown. It is a separation.

Drawing from a manuscript he originally wrote to understand and deconstruct his own experience, Ben explores how transformational language, psychological tools, and high-control frameworks shaped his development long before he could meaningfully consent.

Together, Anne and Ben examine:

** The difference between adult consent and childhood indoctrination

** How legitimate psychological tools can become harmful when misapplied

** The impact of Landmark Worldwide style teachings on emotional regulation, identity formation, and trauma processing

** The weaponization of concepts like “integrity,” “choice,” and “meaning”

** Why youth programming crosses a critical ethical line

** How unresolved trauma surfaces decades later — in the body, not just the mind

This is a nuanced, compassionate conversation that holds both benefit and harm without collapsing into absolutes. It invites listeners to think critically, reflect honestly, and consider what ethical responsibility truly looks like in the personal development industry.

RESOURCES & LINKS: Read Ben’s full manuscript here https://medium.com/@beneisenberg_10514/my-experience-growing-up-in-landmark-education-landmark-worldwide-1aae2ea2582e

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources → https://isthisacultbook.com/

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/

MODERATION NOTE: While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted.

FINALLY Please consider supporting this channel which helps us to offer more and better content and resources such as the healing group w/ Rachel. Contributing also supports the learning and healing needs of folks, no matter their ability to pay, who are waking up to and leaving high demand and cult(ish) groups. Click Subscribe, consider being YouTube CTL community member and comment on and/or share the episode.

On this episode of Confronting the Line, we examine some common myths the self-help industry often tries to sell:

“Trauma is a choice.”

“Healing is a choice.”

“You can choose differently.”

These ideas sound empowering on the surface—until they devolve to shame, blame, or silence for people who are already hurting.

Anne Peterson, Ann Betz, and Brian Arbor dig into:

• The neuroscience of trauma responses

• Why “choice” disappears inside fight/flight/freeze/fawn

• How systems and environments create trauma long before “choice” enters the picture

• The historical roots of PTSD (and why understanding them matters)

• How shared responsibility changes the healing landscape

• Why “just shift your mindset” is not trauma care

• The difference between exploring meaning and assigning blame

• Why no one heals in isolation

We also look directly at the ways the self-help and coaching world—especially high-control, high-pressure transformational spaces—misuse the idea of choice to cover up harm, deny responsibility, or demand performance instead of support.

Healing is real. Transformation is real.

But neither work if presented in an environment that includes gaslighting, shame, or impossible standards of personal responsibility.

If you’ve ever wondered whether your trauma was your fault—or whether someone used the language of “transformation” to offer solutions that then didn’t work the problem was never you — and this conversation is for you.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Learn all about Ann Betz and her coach trainings at https://www.beaboveleadership.com/ 

Initial episodes with Brian where he shares his trauma E51 Thoughts on Landmark, Trauma & Moral Injury: A Follow up Conversation with Brian Arbor (Part 1)

E36 - Can You Transform Trauma? A Hard Truth About Healing PTSD w/ Brian Arbor (PT2)

E35 Transformational Tools & Trauma: Brian Arbor on War, PTSD, and Landmark Part 1 of 2 

Gavin de Beckers Gift of Fear FREE master class https://giftoffear.com/#masterclasses

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted.

Anne Peterson welcomes Ken Wortley, a former pastor and author of the memoir The Gospel of Secrets, to Confronting the Line. Our show explores how groups—from spiritual to personal development—can cross the boundary from providing help to inflicting harm and exploitation.

Ken shares his deeply personal chronicle detailing his journey from a life defined by pretense to one of authenticity. For two decades, Ken served as a pastor within a conservative evangelical environment, struggling intensely to suppress his homosexual identity. He discusses the pressure to adhere to the ideal of a "successful pastor," which included maintaining a "mask of marriage". The conversation explores the confusion and pain that comes with feeling rejected by a community that was once home, and the lengths people go to hide their true selves to maintain certainty and acceptance.

Ken recounts the process of his painful divorce—the moment his wife "stabbed the elephant in the living room"—which launched him into a years-long journey of therapy, deconstruction, and unlearning theology. We discuss the pervasive nature of secrets and the "ripple effect" of dishonesty. Ultimately, Ken found acceptance and peace with his partner in Brazil, achieving a genuine connection to spirituality outside of rigid institutions. This episode is a profound examination of the courage required to look within and forgive oneself.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Get Ken’s book https://tinyurl.com/4yssakvt and learn more about Ken’s journey or contact him directly via his website https://kenwortley.com/ 

Get in contact with Anne or read her Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted. 

FINALLY 

Please consider supporting this channel by clicking subscribe, leaving us a review and/or becoming a member via YouTube.  Your contribution helps make it possible for us to keep having these conversations!

In this follow-up conversation, Anne Peterson and former Landmark Worldwide Headquarters Staffer Brian Arbor go deeper into the emotional and moral mechanics of high-control transformation environments. Building on Part One, they unpack how Chris Shelton’s R.E.M. Model (Rationalization, Emotion, Morality) helps explain why good people stay in—and rationalize—the harm of exploitative self-help cultures.

Together they explore:

⚖️ Moral injury — how people violate their own values while trying to “make a difference.”

💭 Rationalization and ideology — the mental gymnastics that keep abuse invisible.

🧠 Emotion vs. reason — why our emotional systems come first, and why ignoring them can lead to dissociation or harm.

😶 “Setting aside your feelings” — how performance culture in LGATs (Large Group Awareness Trainings) trains near sociopathic behaviors in the name of “being powerful.”

💔 Accountability and denial — why leaders and organizations avoid responsibility even as harm mounts.

💬 The role of narrative — how meaning-making and moral frameworks can be twisted into manipulation.

🌍 Healing and responsibility — finding your voice, telling your story, and reclaiming your moral compass after coercive systems.

Anne and Brian speak candidly about their own complicity, recovery, and the emotional toll of leaving a world that promised more transformation than it would or even could deliver. This is a conversation about awakening, responsibility, and the courage to keep learning.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Check out Brian’s Traces of Trauma Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/pl/podcast/traces-of-trauma/id1827823981 

Our previous episodes when Brian  first speaks up about trauma and transformation

E51- PART 1 of this conversation https://youtu.be/J6B2anBWXHE 

E35 and E36 are our first conversation about transformation and trauma recovery.

Get in contact with Anne or read her Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted. 

FINALLY 

Please consider supporting this channel by becoming a member via YouTube.  Your contribution helps make it possible for us to keep having these conversations!

In this follow-up conversation, Anne Peterson and former Landmark staff member Brian Arbor take an unflinching look at what happens when transformational ideals collide with organizational control.

⚠️ Content Note: This episode includes discussion of psychological harm, trauma, and moral injury. Please listen with care and take breaks as needed.

A longtime participant and staffer, Brian reflects on the promises and hidden costs of his years inside Landmark Worldwide — from the hope of “making a difference” to the trauma, moral injury, and identity loss that can come from total immersion in high-control environments. 

Together, Anne and Brian begin to explore the REM Model (Rationalization, Emotion & Morals) developed by Chris Shelton and how it illuminates the inner conflict many experience when “help” begins to harm. More on this in PART TWO of their conversation next week! 

This episode continues Confronting the Line’s mission to examine both sides — the light and the dark — of the self-help industry, revealing how good intentions can be weaponized and how healing begins with truth-telling.

Part 1 of 2 — Part 2 drops soon.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

Check out Brian’s Traces of Trauma Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/pl/podcast/traces-of-trauma/id1827823981 

Our previous episodes when Brian first speaks up about trauma and transformation

E35 https://youtu.be/5gRwymEAzCs?si=3ellNVscfFRhBHS4

E36 https://youtu.be/YAWyJKdfwzY?si=AqQUIl5o5zt0kbmn 

Get in contact with Anne or read her Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted. 

In this episode, I am joined by Dr. Glenn Doyle, SEEK Safely Board President, and Jean Brown, manager and board member of SEEK, to discuss several upcoming events and programs we are launching in the coming months.

SEEK Safely was born in response to the tragedy that took three people's lives, including Jean's sister Kirby Brown, due to an irresponsibly run pseudo sweat lodge. Almost 13 years later, the self-help and wellness industries continue to be among the most risky and unregulated spaces out there.

Listen in as we discuss the launch of what we are calling the SEEK Safely movement. We'll cover the 'whys' and 'wherefores' of the upcoming programs and opportunities SEEK and iLumn8.Life are collaborating on. We'll also discuss why we believe those of us who have been impacted in both good and bad ways are precisely the right people to advocate for a safer and more ethical self-help space.

RESOURCES & LINKS: 

SEEK Safely offerings https://ilumn8.life/lp/seek-safely-programs/

All ticket sales will help support the SEEK Safely movement

Learn all about SEEKSafely.org here. 

Read Anne’s Book Is This A Cult: Confronting the Line Between Exploitation and Transformation and find other pods and resources →  https://isthisacultbook.com/ 

If you or someone you know is wrestling with recovery after being involved in a high-control group, relationship or any organization, check out the Healthy Healing and Recovery Group w/ Rachel Bernstein  https://ilumn8.life/op/lgat-recovery-group/ 

MODERATION NOTE: 

While healthy debate and discussion regarding the topics being discussed is encouraged, personal (ad hominem) attacks on people, places or things will be deleted. 

FINALLY 

Please consider supporting this channel which helps us to offer more and better content and resources such as the healing group w/ Rachel.  Contributing also supports the learning and healing needs of folks, no matter their ability to pay, who are waking up to and leaving high demand and cult(ish) groups.  Click to join one of the membership options available via this YouTube Channel @ConfrontingtheLine.