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Crazy Together episodes

  • 125. What If We Are Not a Glitch in the System?

    What if neurodivergence isn’t some sort of genetic glitch? What if our facility with hyperfocus, pattern recognition, and rapid threat detection are actually vital survival advantages that have enabled the evolution of all people? What if, against all odds, we are the linchpin of human survival? 

    In this week’s episode, Marcus and Esme discuss a fairly new hypothesis about the evolution of neurodivergent conditions. The evolutionary case for neurodivergence theorizes that conditions like ADHD, autism, and dyslexia are not genetic "mistakes". Instead, they represent natural variations in human cognition that played a vital role in enabling ancestral human groups to adapt and thrive.

    Marcus and Esme also explore how this evolutionary reframing supports one of their favorite theories. Specifically, that the high rates of depression and anxiety among neurodivergent people are not the result of “disordered brains,” but the inevitable outcome of living in a modern world that was not built with us in mind. 

    Victory laps and suggestions for creating a better world for neurodivergent people abound in this very special episode.

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    Sources for this episode include:

    • Griffin, Benjamin, Riya Gosrani, and Jessica Eccles. “Beyond Comorbidity: Evolutionary Insights Into the Concomitance of Neurodivergence, Major Depressive Disorder, and Anxiety Disorders.” Evolutionary Applications, vol. 19, no. 3, 19 Mar. 2026, e70221. Wiley Online Library. https://doi.org/10.1111/eva.70221. 
    • Fliesler, Nancy. “Autism and Evolution.” Harvard Medical School, 22 Sept. 2016, https://hms.harvard.edu/news/autism-evolution. 
    • Muhlert, Matthias. The Evolutionary Advantage of Neurodiversity: A Polygenic Threshold Model for Cognitive Specialization in Human Groups. SSRN, 1 Aug. 2025, https://ssrn.com/abstract=5404371. 
    • The Neurodiversity Directory. Neurodiversity Statistics & Neurodivergent Research Data. The Neurodiversity Directory, 2026, https://neurodiversity.directory/neurodiversity-statistics. 
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      • 48 min
      • 124. The Bottom-Up & Top-Down Thinking EXTRAVAGANZA

        Why do neurodivergent and neurotypical people often think and behave differently from one another, and why do they struggle to see things from each other’s perspective? While there are a variety of reasons that might explain these differences, Marcus and Esme explore one that they think is particularly impactful: thinking styles. In this special, vacation week edition, Marcus and Esme revisit the topics of bottom-up and top-down thinking. In doing so, they ask the audience to help them figure out: 

        1) Do Marcus and Esme hate jigsaw puzzles, or are they just mildly annoyed by the imperfect use of jigsaw puzzle assembly as a metaphor for bottom-up thinking?

        2) What  is tiger derangement syndrome, and how does it reflect society’s attitudes towards and assumptions about bottom-up thinking?

        3) How does Boeing’s recent difficulties keeping some of their planes from plummeting to earth represent a worst-case scenario for the outcomes of enforced top-down thinking?

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        Sources for this episode include:

        • McCann, Sam. “Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up Thinking: Why Autistic Brains Process the World Differently.” Green Coast Counseling, 2026, https://www.greencoastcounseling.com/green-coast-counseling-therapy-blog/top-down-vs-bottom-up-thinking-why-autistic-brains-process-the-world-differently. 
          • Lee, Crystal I. “Bottom-Up Thinking and Autism: A Different Way of Processing the World.” LA Concierge Psychologist, 2020, https://laconciergepsychologist.com/blog/bottom-up-thinking-and-autism. 
          • Main, Paul. “Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up Processing: How Learners Think.” Structural Learning, 2026, https://www.structural-learning.com/post/top-down-processing-and-bottom-up-processing. 
          • Blackmore, Laura. “Top-Down Vs Bottom-Up Approach In Management: Key Differences.” Cascade, 17 Mar. 2025, https://www.cascade.app/blog/top-down-vs-bottom-up. 
          • Josephs, Leslie, and Thomas Franck. “Boeing Survey Showed Employees Felt Pressure from Managers on Safety Approvals.” CNBC, 20 Oct. 2019, updated 21 Oct. 2019, https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/20/boeing-survey-shows-safety-workers-felt-pressure-from-managers-report.html. 
          • Singh, Laura, et al. “The Effect of Optimistic Expectancies on Attention Bias: Neural and Behavioral Correlates.” Scientific Reports, vol. 10, article no. 6495, 2020, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-61440-1. 
          • Sharot, Tali. “The Optimism Bias.” Current Biology, vol. 21, no. 23, 6 Dec. 2011, pp. R941–R945. ScienceDirect, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982211011912. 
          • Suster, Mark. “The Benefits of Top-Down Thinking & Why It Is Critical to Entrepreneurs.” Both Sides of the Table, 14 July 2010, https://bothsidesofthetable.com/the-benefits-of-top-down-thinking-why-it-is-critical-to-entrepreneurs-bec7789659a7. 
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            • 1 hr 31 min
            • 123. HYPERFOCUS BONUS: Be quiet and don’t shop drunk (or lessons learned in Paris)

              She’s back! Esme and Marcus continue the discussion about the Power of Novelty (episode 122) as they recall some of the lessons they learned on a trip to Paris. Later, Esme shares a recommendation for a book series about a group of witches, vampires, and demons who make a solemn pact to keep their existence hidden from regular people and each other. But can any pact really stop a couple of attractive academics (and secret supernatural beings) from falling in love? 

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              • 29 min
              • 122. The Power of Novelty

                Esme-heads: prepare to be disappointed. Or, prepare to be delightfully surprised! Such is the power of novel experiences.

                Marcus is flying solo this week. And while he realizes the throngs of Esme fans out there might be loath to listen to him meander his way through an episode without the patient guidance of his better half, he has endeavored to keep it (relatively) short and sweet.

                In this week’s episode, Marcus discusses the concept of novelty and its impact on the reward pathways in our brains. He also describes the positive impact novel experiences have on our attention and well-being, differentiates novelty from novelty-seeking behavior, and provides some helpful tips for adding some novelty to your daily routine.

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                Sources for this episode include:

                • Reichardt, Richárd, Bertalan Polner, and Péter Simor. “The Graded Novelty Encoding Task: Novelty Gradually Improves Recognition of Visual Stimuli under Incidental Learning Conditions.” Behavior Research Methods, vol. 55, no. 4, 2022, pp. 1587–1600. PMC10250520, doi:10.3758/s13428-022-01891-8. Accessed via PubMed Central, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10250520/. 
                • Hall, Karyn. “The Magic of Novelty: Why It Matters and How to Embrace It.” Psychology Today, 6 Jan. 2025, https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/pieces-of-mind/202501/the-magic-of-novelty-why-it-matters-and-how-to-embrace-it. 
                • O’Connor, Alexander J., Charlan J. Nemeth, and Satoshi Akutsu. “Consequences of Beliefs about the Malleability of Creativity.” Creativity Research Journal, vol. 25, no. 2, 2013, pp. 155–162. Published online 17 May 2013. Taylor & Francis Online, https://doi.org/10.1080/10400419.2013.783739. 
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                  • 30 min
                  • 121. HYPERFOCUS REWIND: Who’s That Lady (Doing All That Sewing)?

                    Just because Marcus and Esme are taking a little bit of time off to celebrate the Fourth of July weekend doesn't mean they have forgotten about you, dear listener. To ensure you get your weekly fix of their unique brand of neurodivergent meandering, they've decided to replay one of their most downloaded HYPERFOCUS BONUS episodes ever: 61. Who’s That Lady (Doing All That Sewing)?

                    Marcus and Esme will be back with new episodes next week. 

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                    Our theme music

                    • Midnight—Declan DP [Audio Library Release] Music provided by Audio Library Plus Watch:    • Midnight — Declan DP | Free Backgroun...   Free Download / Stream: https://alplus.io/midnight-declan-dp
                    • 34 min
                    • 120. When Neurotech met Neurowellness (I’ll have what she’s having)

                      What do you get when you cross peer-reviewed, academically rigorous neuroscience with the super-squishy feels-based world of wellness? A lot of FCC compliant (but not FDA approved) devices, a little bit of hope, and, sadly, far too many broken promises. 

                      Marcus and Esme discuss the burgeoning trends of neurotech and neurowellness in this week’s episode and share some “yellow flags” you should consider before spending a lot of money on a miracle device or treatment. They also share their golden rule for assessing the validity of any mental health-related service or product: consult a professional before making any treatment decisions. They also watch a video of an influencer testing out a vagus nerve simulator and experiencing some . . . um . . . unexpected benefits. Surprises abound!

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                      Sources for this episode include:

                      • Müller, Oliver, and Stefan Rotter. “Neurotechnology: Current Developments and Ethical Issues.” Frontiers in systems neuroscience vol. 11 93. 13 Dec. 2017, doi:10.3389/fnsys.2017.00093 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5733340/ 
                      • Loo, Sandra K et al. “Trigeminal Nerve Stimulation for Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder: Cognitive and Electroencephalographic Predictors of Treatment Response.” Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry vol. 60,7 (2021): 856-864.e1. doi:10.1016/j.jaac.2020.09.021 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9714960/#S14 
                      • Global Wellness Summit. Neurowellness—One of the Biggest Wellness Trends of 2026. Global Wellness Summit, 2026, https://www.globalwellnesssummit.com/trendium/neurowellness-one-of-the-biggest-wellness-trends-of-2026. 
                      • “NeuroSigma Launches Next-Generation Monarch Device for Pediatric ADHD After Successful Pilot Program.” Yahoo Finance, 18 Nov. 2025, PAID PRESS RELEASE https://finance.yahoo.com/news/neurosigma-launches-next-generation-monarch-160000572.html. 
                      • Radytė, Emilė. “The Future of Neurotechnology in Mental Health: What’s Coming for Women’s Wellness.” Samphire Neuroscience, 13 Oct. 2025, https://www.samphireneuro.com/blog/the-future-of-neurotechnology-in-mental-health. 
                      • Israel, Ira. “Neuroplasticity and the Legacy of a Scientific Mistake.” Psychology Today, 24 June 2026, https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/authenticity-101/202606/neuroplasticity-and-the-legacy-of-a-scientific-mistake. 
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                        • 1 hr 13 min
                        • 119. HYPERFOCUS BONUS: There is crying in both baseball and Regency era England

                          Is there crying in baseball? As it turns out, yes. And Marcus tells the tale of how he learned you absolutely cannot weaponize a legendary player’s emotional farewell against a rival team’s fan base, no matter how much they might deserve it. 

                          Also, Esme reveals the two key lessons at the heart of the Other Bennet Sister: 1) Mary Bennet doesn’t need to be featured in a rapid-fire montage in which she tries on multiple dresses – she’s fine the way she is; and 2) everybody can use a little bit of Indira Varma in their lives.

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                          Our theme music

                          • Midnight—Declan DP [Audio Library Release] Music provided by Audio Library Plus Watch:    • Midnight — Declan DP | Free Backgroun...   Free Download / Stream: https://alplus.io/midnight-declan-dp
                          • 26 min
                          • 118. What Does it Mean to be a Protector?

                            “Do you really think you’re tougher than Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt or Lord of Winterfell, Ned Stark?” This is the seemingly nonsensical question Marcus and Esme pose to their male listeners in this week’s episode (Please note: This question will make sense once you listen to the episode).

                            One of the central tenets of traditional masculinity is that men must be protectors and providers for their families. This is not a bad impulse in-and-of itself. Men should want to take care of the people they care about. However, manosphere grifters like to use the concept of being a protector to justify aggressive, domineering, and violent behaviors and attitudes towards women.

                            The problem with this framing is that men – specifically husbands, boyfriends, and fathers - are the leading perpetrators of violent crime and homicide against women and children globally. In other words, these traditional beliefs might lead men to become the antithesis of protectors.

                            But, Marcus and Esme still think that being a protector is a good impulse; and they identify two things men can do to help them become the kind of protectors who partner with their loved ones to ensure their families’ physical and emotional safety.

                            Now, some men won’t like it when they hear what this two-step process entails. But this is when those same men must ask themselves the very peculiar question from the top of the description (which, again, will make sense once you listen to the episode . . . promise). 

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                            Sources for this episode include:

                            • World Health Organization. Child Maltreatment. 8 May 2026, https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/child-maltreatment. 
                            • United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, and UN Women. Gender‑Related Killings of Women and Girls (Femicide/Feminicide): Global Estimates of Female Intimate Partner/Family‑Related Homicides in 2022. UNODC & UN Women, 2023, https://www.unwomen.org/sites/default/files/2023-11/gender-related-killings-of-women-and-girls-femicide-feminicide-global-estimates-2022-en.pdf. 
                            • Gračanin, Asmir, et al. “Is Crying a Self-Soothing Behavior?” Frontiers in Psychology, vol. 5, 2014, p. 502, doi:10.3389/fpsyg.2014.00502. PubMed Central, PMCID: PMC4035568, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4035568/. 
                            • Millings, Abigail, et al. “Holding Back the Tears: Individual Differences in Adult Crying Proneness Reflect Attachment Orientation and Attitudes to Crying.” Frontiers in Psychology, vol. 7, 2016, p. 1003, doi:10.3389/fpsyg.2016.01003. PubMed Central, PMCID: PMC4934120, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4934120/. 
                            • Murube, Juan. “Hypotheses on the Development of Psychoemotional Tearing.” The Ocular Surface, vol. 7, no. 4, Oct. 2009, pp. 171–75. Elsevier, doi:10.1016/S1542-0124(12)70184-2. 
                            • Burgess, Lana. “8 Benefits of Crying: Why Do We Cry, and When to Seek Support.” Medical News Today, updated 19 May 2026, https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319631. 
                            • Grabmeier, Jeff. “Domestic Violence Often Comes From Men Who Repress Emotions, Feel Threatened, Study Finds.” Ohio State News, 8 Dec. 2002, https://news.osu.edu/domestic-violence-often-comes-from-men-who-repress-emotions-feel-threatened-study-finds. 
                            • Petts, Richard J., Chris Knoester, and Jane Waldfogel. “Fathers’ Paternity Leave‑Taking and Children’s Perceptions of Father‑Child Relationships in the United States.” Sex Roles, vol. 82, nos. 3–4, 2019, pp. 173–188, doi:10.1007/s11199-019-01050-y. PubMed Central, PMCID: PMC7030161. 
                            • Noori, Rebecca. “Paternity Leave Benefits: Important But Often Overlooked.” Benepass Blog, 30 May 2024, https://getbenepass.com/blog/paternity-leave-benefits. 
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                              • 54 min
                              • 117. HYPERFOCUS BONUS: The Joys and the Horrors of Family Game Night

                                Is the nighttime truly the right time for boardgame-based family fun? For the average person with ADHD, whose attention span is largely dependent on medications they take during the daytime, the answer might be “no.” That’s the conclusion Marcus and Esme have come to after a recent family game night, wherein the O’Kayvious clan attempted to play a new (and surprisingly complex) boardgame for the very first time. Marcus and Esme share their family’s story of perseverance and joy in the face of their dopamine-starved attention spans. 

                                Plus, Marcus recalls a family game night from his childhood when his much, much older siblings roped him into a friendly game of global domination. Would an undiagnosed, unmedicated, and far too trusting Marcus fare well against his brothers, some of whom were old enough at the time to rent cars in foreign countries? And would the outcome of that experience instill in Marcus a lifelong love of board games with sophisticated and context-heavy instructions? (Spoiler alert: No).

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                                Our theme music

                                • Midnight—Declan DP [Audio Library Release] Music provided by Audio Library Plus Watch:    • Midnight — Declan DP | Free Backgroun...   Free Download / Stream: https://alplus.io/midnight-declan-dp
                                • 29 min
                                • 116. Don’t Walk Away: An Unlikely and Refreshingly Positive Story About Life with Dementia

                                  What if our assumptions about the inner lives of loved ones who are living with Alzheimer’s and dementia are wrong? What if the people we love are still very much there? 

                                  These are the questions raised by today’s guest, Marilyn Raichle. Marilyn is author of Don’t Walk Away: A Care Partner’s Journey, a powerful and uplifting memoir about her experience as her mother’s care partner while she was living with dementia. She is also one of the most genuine and lovely people you’d ever want to talk to.

                                  While the idea of caring for a loved one with dementia or Alzheimer’s can feel daunting or even heartbreaking, Marilyn’s story is one of hope, love, and understanding. It’s also a story about the power of creative expression. Marilyn describes how her mother, June, took up painting later in life, and how June’s creations helped Marilyn get to know her mother better, and remember that the woman she had always known and loved was still there.

                                  Marilyn Raichle is the founder of The Art of Alzheimer’s, an organization that celebrates the creativity of people living with dementia and the power of the creative arts to enrich and empower their lives. She is also the Executive Director of Maude’s Awards for Innovation in Alzheimer’s Care. 

                                  To learn more about Marilyn – or to purchase her beautiful book – please visit her website: https://dontwalkaway.net/ 

                                  You can, as always, visit our website: crazytogetherpod.com

                                  Contact us: https://www.crazytogetherpod.com/contact

                                  Our theme music

                                  • Midnight—Declan DP [Audio Library Release] Music provided by Audio Library Plus Watch:    • Midnight — Declan DP | Free Backgroun...   Free Download / Stream: https://alplus.io/midnight-declan-dp
                                  • 53 min

                                  About Crazy Together

                                  From the publisher's feed

                                  If you’re sick and tired of listening to the negative talk track playing in your head, then why not listen to us instead? We are Marcus and Esme O’Kayvius (not our real names), a married, neurodivergent couple with a lot of experience managing our own mental health issues while raising a daughter and navigating the dystopic hellscape that is corporate America. Join us each week as we discuss trending mental health issues and explore how they impact our health and wellness. We’ll also examine the myths and misconceptions associated with mental health and what we can do about them.