Thank you for tuning into my live video with Debbie Weil!

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I went on Freya Bromley’s new podcast called Character Study and she asked me to read a favourite passage from my new book A Creative Compass which launches officially into the world on June 25th 2026. She is kindly letting me share this passage with you here too.

Someone described A Creative Compass as “Emma’s first creativity guide” in a review and I thought: first?! The implication that there will be many. I quite liked that.

But yes, this is my FIRST creativity guide. It is a book of essays and stories about creativity, my creative process, how and why I do it, all the inspiration I’ve gathered over the years.

I don’t want to be dramatic but I think, over the next decade or so as the world goes absolutely berserk: CREATIVITY and our CONNECTION TO IT— IS GOING TO BE A LIFELINE.

A Creative Compass is an empowering guide for artists, makers, writers and anyone seeking to live more creatively, with confidence, calm and joy.We all possess creativity, whether it’s in the clothes we wear, the way we arrange flowers, or the patterns we choose for our bedroom walls. However, in today’s fast-paced world, many of us have lost touch with our innate creative abilities. By chasing trends, productivity hacks and protocols, we forget to trust ourselves… instead relying on algorithms to dictate what we like, what we make, and crucially, how we feel. Not anymore! We can take back control by rediscovering and prioritising our pure connection to our creative source.I understand just how essential creativity is for survival. (If you’ve read A Year of Nothing you’ll know why). Through necessity I have had to forge my own creative compass to rekindle my spark when it’s running low.

*if you’re in the U.S. hang tight, a pre-order link coming for you too, soon.

Now, I need to talk about Freya Bromley. I have one of those creatively sparked connections to Freya. I read her memoir A Tidal Year during my burnout episode and mention it in A Year of Nothing. I think she’s a huge literary talent. I love her work, and it is so easy to champion it, and tell everyone to read it. She has written her debut novel called A Real Piece of Work and it is so clever and funny and introspective and sincere in the best possible way. It’s out on June 11th - go pre-order it.

Her brand new podcast, Character Study, has a brilliant premise: it is all about how writers, artists and performers shape their character online and offline. How we perform a character, and how we distinguish between our different selves. Fascinating topic. I am endlessly curious about how others make it work too—how we tiptoe between ‘public’ and ‘private’. Some people have a divide down the middle, and some people merge it all together. I can’t wait to listen to the other episodes — and I’m honoured to have been the first guest!

Each episode, I’ll be talking to creatives of every discipline about the delicate art of finding inspiration in the everyday. From memoir to standup via autofiction and Instagram, I want to know what happens when we blur the lines between fact and fiction. These conversations will explore how seeing yourself as a ‘character’ in your own story can unearth unexpected courage, compassion and curiosity. And maybe even a bit more self-reflection! This podcast isn’t just for writers, it’s for anyone trying to make sense of their own story. - Freya Bromley

Join Freya’s fabulous Substack:

Hope you enjoy this extract! I cannot wait to bring A Creative Compass to you.

A reminder that I am also running a creativity retreat focused on the prompts in the book, in Greece, in September. Details here.

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One of the joys of my creative life is knowing other creative women, and growing alongside them. I’d followed Lydia Pang’s work for years before we finally met in person in 2019—back when she was creative director at Refinery29, about to move to Portland to become creative director at Nike. Our first friend-date was at a restaurant in New York, in the middle of our younger hustle years—bold, ambitious, HUNGRY and painting on our lipstick every morning with a smile. I was in New York to record a Skillshare workshop, meet with my new PR team and record a live episode of Ctrl Alt Delete podcast at WNYC Studios. Life was different, then.

It was so fun reconnecting for this conversation. Lydia dialing in from her home in rural Wales with her husband and young baby; me from my quiet leafy corner of London.

I have always loved Lydia’s confidence, one of those women who stands up tall, feet on the ground, rooted in herself. I had no doubt that her first book, Eat Bitter, would be excellent. She’s a creative powerhouse: I could go on about her academic background studying at The Courtauld Institute of Art, or being a judge at various big industry awards like Cannes Lions, or running her own successful creative studio MØRNING—but basically, Lydia Pang doesn’t do things by halves.

The Eat Bitter project began as a self-published zine, and was available as a one-time pre-order back in 2020. It wasn’t just recipes; it also embodied the “struggles of her Hakka ancestors… whose ingenuity produced a distinct food culture based on fermenting and foraging.” It gained traction, and people wanted more. Then, the publisher Chatto & Windus won a ‘competitive eight-way auction’ to publish Eat Bitter as her debut memoir. It launches this week. Structurally, it has eight recipes from the ‘most painful and formative moments’ of Pang’s life—and there is a generosity of spirit, as though she’s welcoming you into her home and laying it all out on a glorious platter to be shared and consumed.

‘Eat Bitter’ is a Chinese proverb that means ‘to endure pain before tasting sweetness’—aka: we can do hard things and things take time. The idea of slowing down, enduring, surrendering.

It is a book for our times. It’s about burnout, grief and the aftermath of ambition. It’s not just about food; rather, food serves as a metaphor for life stories, consumerism, and nutrition—or the lack thereof. Pang argues that we live in a culture of speed and convenience, and that the system perpetuates this insatiable modern appetite:

“We live in a world that venerates optics and quick fixes over slowing down. Time is our enemy; it is stolen from us and yet it’s our fault for letting it slip away. [..] The system doesn’t want us sober and awake, thoughtful and reciprocal. No, it wants us to soothe ourselves with sugar that rots our teeth, so we’re ready to be sold a dental package, distracted from the horrors that ensue and circle us.” - Eat Bitter

The book is about finding nourishment again. Not in quick fixes, but rediscovering the things that stretch us, slow us down, encourage us to use our hands. We are so worried about ‘wasting our time’ in our quest for validation that we forget to invest in things that don’t show immediate results:

“Eating bitter is not a ‘fix’ you can throw money at; you will be challenged to pause and reflect. Simmer. Eating bitter is not something you can flash-fry and check off your list. You cannot excel at this.”

Surely, Pang says, we shouldn’t be afraid to do things that are ‘pointless’. We should waste more time trying stuff out. We don’t always need to be productive. It’s exhausting, really, how much of modern work-culture is all about gaming the system. Life ‘hacks’. AI. Shortcuts. Wanting everything to be a success immediately. She discusses how we are all missing out by trying to always cheat the system. Instead of networking, why not write a handwritten letter to someone you love? Instead of ‘happiness hacks’, why not let ourselves feel our disgusting feelings?

“Let me fester, for f**k’s sake. Manifestation, goals, journaling, projecting (all things I’ve done with varying degrees of success) can be suffocating. [..] But eating bitter is not about training our minds to be and do and think better, day by day. I don’t want to be a sunny person who always sees the opportunity, rather I want to be a feeling and fearless person.”

Whether it’s finding way her way back home after burnout, or finding ways to reconnect with her husband, or grieving a painful miscarriage, or overcoming health issues or heartbreak—eating bitter acts as the rudder, steering the ship back to sanity. Pang slowly heals by putting the productivity mindset down—and instead spends hours and hours making wontons with her father, spends time in the forest, puts the perfectionism down, lets herself unravel:

“I had spent my entire existence achieving (and performing) the ultimate version of a best life, and I’d been addicted to the cortisol of it all. But now I was numb, burned out, sad that I was sad — my master plan had not served, and there was something shameful about that. [..] Looking back, it makes me smile that I thought I hid it. Of course my parents knew. But they simply accepted me and Roo, and they fed us.”

Feeding each other is an act of love. The book is an ode to her family and their Hakka heritage. It’s about family and food, yes—but more than that, it’s about having the guts to be imperfect, messy and unapologetically yourself. It is about finding resilience in letting your ugly sides be finally seen. It’s about how we care for each other when the chips are down.

It is a gift to the reader when a fellow ambitious creative woman lets the mask purposefully slip, letting you in, showing the messy and vulnerable sides of coming out the other side of the girlboss era. I felt seen in her words. The ambition hasn’t gone away, but it’s definitely morphed into something else—something more solid and matured. Brené Brown really was onto something when she spoke about the ‘power of vulnerability’, wasn’t she?

Pang said in our interview: “I wanted to be so perfect, and glossy and powerful, I wanted a vessel to put all of my ugly bits.” That’s exactly what Eat Bitter is. In its raw ‘ugliness’, it is a thing of beauty. I found the book emotional, brave, and eye-opening, and I highly recommend it.

Thank you Lydia! Get your copy of Eat Bitter here.

In this episode (available to listen to at the top of this post 🎧):— getting into writing during the pandemic— the power of ‘pointless creativity’; and how the book turned from a fun zine to a full-blown book proposal— having an agent who pushes and challenges you— why timing matters for writing memoir— the power of a small tight-knit network— how creativity is about building your own world— how Lydia is marketing the book (bone broth candle anyone?)— how food/recipes is a vessel to tell stories— the power of the ‘messy’ generalist — Are we impatient with our creativity?— Playing with our ‘ugly’ feelings, and different versions of ourselves— Writing about real people and real events in a memoir— Self care vs self-ambition and marriage

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Amy Suto’s book Write for Money and Power has an arresting cover. It’s bold. It’s not messing around. It asks: can you be an artist — and want money and power? Inside a system that doesn’t often grant artists much power? How many of us have been sold the starving artist myth? That to be an artist, you should be living off nothing, and never ever “sell out”?

I met Amy last year at a writing retreat I was leading in Tuscany, and she mentions it in the book. It was such a lovely surprise to come across some of the reflections and takeaways from the week we spent together.

I enjoy watching Amy deliver her work with confidence and generosity. The book is well laid out. The main headline of the book: “This is the golden age of writers who know how to sell their work without apology.” I underlined so many things with my yellow highlighter. It is structured in a kind of addictive way—each section gives you resourceful tips and advice, there is no fluff.

Amy introduces the book explaining where she came from: Hollywood writer’s rooms. The Hollywood writer strikes happened. Work dried up. Contracts ended. Then, she gets diagnosed with Rheumatoid arthritis and needs to figure out a way to manage her symptoms and, hopefully, heal.

Amy’s career pivot and health problems led her towards the world of freelancing, ghost-writing and self-publishing. She’s leaves the Hollywood system behind her. Why write for the gatekeepers, when you could write for potential readers instead? She says:

“A self-published book gives you something to sell. It’s your intellectual property. It earns while you sleep. It helps your newsletter audience go deeper and gives you a chance to build long-term assets instead of waiting on publishers or agents.”

Amy delivers some great phrases in the book. She says she noticed “the fear underneath the champagne toasts” at industry parties. She believes “the dream isn’t real if you can’t own it”. She describes traditional book contracts or a staff writer job on a TV show as “a very fancy cage.” It’s not a business model that suits the writer.

She isn’t afraid to critique The System in this book. The same system that floats corporate publishing or Hollywood:

“The system itself is not designed to make you rich, powerful or free. It’s meant to benefit the people at the top. It’s designed to keep you grateful. It’s designed to keep you waiting.”

How long have you been WAITING to receive a reply about something? It’s common in big industries. It’s slow, slow slow.

She asks the reader practical questions. Say your industry dries up tomorrow. What are you left with? “No email list. No reader connection. No platform you control.” It is a call to arms to writers: Own Your Stuff.

Her message is clear: we believe in the ‘starving artist myth’ because it benefits all the middlemen. The book reads as a huge permission slip to writers who want to try out making things on their own terms. She says we used to need validation, “now we need a laptop and the guts to hit ‘publish’.”

Another myth explored in the book is the idea that the cream rises to the top. She believes we’re sold this story that the good stuff will just magically get discovered. This myth of ‘getting discovered’ stops writers and creatives from making their stuff. They sit around waiting, instead of putting things out there to be discovered by readers, or the Internet, instead. She says “the creator economy doesn’t reward polish, it rewards participation.” I love how she says to the writers brave enough to hit publish: “Welcome to the arena.”

Amy shares success stories which read as very inspirational. She makes a lot of money herself. Not everyone is going to have this worldwide success, but isn’t it fun to think “ooooh what if?” in a self-publishing world of no limitations? She writes about Andy Weir, who had self-published The Martian on Amazon for 99p before it went mad with readers. She tells stories of the newsletter Stratechery which apparently makes $3.2 million a year. People like Heather Cox Richardson on Substack who apparently also makes seven figures.

In our conversation, we talk about money. Amy talks about how ‘not all dollars are the same’. There is an energy flow, a feeling, an exchange. For example, I hardly make money from podcast advertising nowadays, because the relentlessness came at a cost to my authenticity and wellbeing. I wanted to earn money through my writing and connection and flow, which is why Substack felt right for me.

We talk a bit about AI in this conversation. Near the end of the book, Amy says she uses AI to help when making creative projects. Not for the writing itself; but for the admin, the grunt work. Why would you go through hundreds of pages manually, when you could use an AI to organise transcriptions? I personally don’t want AI anywhere near my creative work, I don’t want to collaborate with robots on ideas. But, I’d be open to AI assisting with intern-level admin work. She says:

“I don’t see AI as a replacement for human creativity and thoughtfulness. I see it as hiring the world’s cheapest, fastest, always-available intern.”

Would love to hear your thoughts in the comments. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Amy is more embedded in the self-publishing world and her lens on tech from living in San Francisco. I got a lot from the conversation and the book—and I enjoy the idea of self-publishing no longer being a dirty word.

Resources mentioned:— Write for Money and Power: The Anti-Starving Artist’s Guide— The rise of the Substack book by Alys Key — Kevin Kelly’s 1,000 True Fans— A Year of Nothing— The Success Myth: Letting go of having it all — Make Writing Your Job

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After reading Kathy Slack’s Rough Patch: How a Year in the Garden Brought Me Back to Life, I immediately wanted to speak with her. I had a feeling we’d have a good conversation, not least because her book shares so many themes with my own, A Year of Nothing, which launched this week.

We both write about deeply personal years in which, against our will, we were forced to let go, opt out, and go underground—years that made very little sense at the time. Mine unfolded recently; Kathy’s took place more than a decade ago.

Our situations differed in many ways, and we used different language to describe our experiences—and while I’m not sure the word burnout ever fully captures what the soul moves through in these dark times, it remains an easy shorthand for the culture around us. Beneath the surface, there were striking similarities in our stories. We were both looking back on particularly challenging years in our lives, and we both chose to write them down and open up.

We both lived through turbulent periods in which our worlds were turned upside down, and later wrote about the slow process of coming back to life: emerging from dark, fallow seasons and digging our hands back into the soil of life.

In Rough Patch, Kathy writes about leaving her glossy advertising career in London—a life that looked like a ‘dream’ but was quietly draining her soul: and discovering unexpected solace in her vegetable patch. Her book offers a brilliant exploration of the healing power of nature and the practice of self-compassion, and along the way, I picked up some useful gardening tips and nourishing recipes.

In this honest chat, we discuss the differences between depression and burnout, the importance of deep rest, kindness toward ourselves, how a memoir isn’t a manual, abundance vs ‘success’, choosing to be child-free, and the deeply satisfying feeling of growing your own vegetables from scratch.

Hope you enjoy. 🌱

Other books/links mentioned:

* Kathy’s Substack ‘Tales from the Veg Patch’

* Kathy’s cookbook: From the Veg Patch: 10 favourite vegetables, 100 simple recipes everyone will love

* The Success Myth: Letting go of having it all

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(Full episode for paid subscribers on Substack.)

I have been lucky enough to interview Liz Gilbert multiple times over the years. First almost ten years ago now, when I launched my podcast Ctrl Alt Delete in 2016. We spoke on Skype, the audio was tinny, it was the early days of podcasting, I was in my mid-twenties recording from my spare box-room in my old Hackney flat. I remember how magical it felt to be speaking with a woman I admired so much. I was invited to her book launch luncheon for Big Magic in London members’ club and I sat with journalists ten years older than me.

I interviewed Liz again in 2019, when I was writing my first novel Olive, and her brilliant novel City of Girls was published. I went to the Bloomsbury offices on a bright sunny day, walking through Bedford Square Gardens with a t-shirt that said Sigourney Weaver on it.

In April last year, I had the honour of introducing Liz on stage in front of thousands of people at the Barbican as part of her UK tour, and I got to attend one of her sold-out creativity workshops. As readers, we get to see all her different eras. During our conversation, we call the writing life ‘living out loud’ and ‘learning in public.’ For many Millennial women like me, Liz has been an unapologetic symbol of living a creative life, leaning into solitude, travel, adventure—and quite frankly: doing whatever you want with your one wild and precious life.

Before All the Way to the River came out this year—her new memoir all about her all-consuming relationship with her late partner Rayya Elias—I was lucky enough to read an early copy in proof form. I was absolutely glued to it, pretty much ignoring my husband for two days, totally immersed in Liz’s world.

I love Liz’s novels for this reason, they’re big and expansive, an intricately built world to escape into, and I love this about Liz’s non-fiction too—she lets us into the full truth of what’s been going on in her life and shows us around. She did it in Eat Pray Love, Committed, and now this new book. It takes courage to say: Actually, you know what, I’m still a work in progress—and aren’t we all? She says life is full of ‘good guesses’ and it suggests that we should all have compassion for our past selves who were trying to figure out all of this *points around*.

We don’t have to tie up our stories in pretty packages. We don’t have to be ‘consumed’ easily. We don’t have to have our personal stories confused with ‘giving advice’ or being a guru. We live in ever-changing lives and worlds. Life is messy—and so are the memoirs that follow.

“I’ll see you in ten years with the next memoir. We’ll see what happens after this.” — Elizabeth Gilbert

I loved interviewing Liz again this week, about our books, writing fiction vs non-fiction, ‘cooking’ our writing before publishing it, and why we do what we do. I also asked her for some friendly advice as my own memoir A Year of Nothing publishes in January.

I hope you enjoy the conversation (and how progressively dark my office gets over the recording lol, it was 4pm in the UK i.e. winter hours!) xoxoxo

Timestamps during our conversation:

00:00 - An introvert on tour06:00 - All The Way To The River and how it was born08:00 - Journalling vs ‘cooked’ writing10:00 - How would Eat Pray Love look in 2025?13:00 - Self-help vs memoir16:00 - Having respect for your readers18:30 - The myth of the ‘guru’20:00 - The fear of publishing a memoir23:00 - Dealing with judgment or criticism25:00 - The reason why we write books27:00 - When a memoir demands to be written30:00 - Writing the book you want to read34:00 - Choosing which form to write in37:00 - Fiction vs non-fiction 40:00 - Creativity and divinity 44:00 - “Success” isn’t enough47:00 - A darkness retreat50:00 - Martha Beck advice54:00 - What’s next for Liz 56:00 - US vs UK audiences1:00 - Where do we write?1:05 - Alone vs lonely1:07 - Women and invisibility 1:13 - The end!

More on similiar topics:

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In 2016, Caroline Donahue and I each started our own podcasts, recording hundreds of episodes with guests. As the industry grew, our shows became our main focus, and eventually, we both decided—separately—to shut them down.

In 2023, I decided to end Ctrl Alt Delete after 15 million downloads and superstar guests like Richard E. Grant, Lena Dunham and Greta Gerwig, in or…

I try not to write about Substack itself on Substack too often—I know it can feel a bit too meta. But as a writer in this space, I’m invested in how the platform evolves, especially as more writers are finding both a community and livelihood here. At a time when authors’ salaries are shrinking, AI technologies are rapidly advancing, and many people I care about in publishing are being made redundant, it’s hard to ignore how much the landscape is shifting.

Yesterday, I was offered some interview time with the co-founders of Substack Hamish McKenzie and Chris Best. I don’t interview many people these days—it's been years since I swapped my podcasting and journalism work to focus on writing more fiction and nonfiction books—but Substack is an interesting place, and they had some news to share.

Today, Substack announced $100 million in new funding. I don’t know much about the running of big companies—I’m a solo worker, and I like it that way—but I’ve always assumed big investment means big targets and more pressure. Still, this feels like a turning point for the platform. Clearly they’re aiming to go big or go home. During the interview, I kept my focus simple: What does this mean for us writers?

In their blog post today: they assure us that they want to help people build “livelihoods based on trust, quality, and creative freedom.” They want to help us protect our “independence, amplify [our] voices, and foster deep and direct relationships.”

I asked them some direct questions: What do you do with $100 million investment? How do you plan to grow? What lessons are you taking from what went wrong at Twitter (X)? Are Notes cannibalizing the Substack newsletter model? And ultimately—what are you hoping to achieve longterm? How will you help writers and artists make their stuff and get paid?

There are plenty of writers who are more interested in the business side of things than me and will continue to watch it all unfold—I just want to use this platform to write and live my quiet, happy life. But I’m glad I had the chance to have this conversation and share it with you, because I care deeply about the empowerment of writers and artists—and right now, we’re in the middle of something pretty exciting. Hope you enjoy the interview! Big thanks to Hamish and Chris for their time xoxo

Interviewing the co-founders of Substack, Hamish McKenzie and Chris Best:

EMMA GANNON: First of all, I want to say thank you, because, you know, the media industry was quite demoralising before you guys came along.

CHRIS BEST: Thanks, and thank you for using Substack.

EMMA: Never a dull day in your offices. On that note, you've got some quite big news.

CHRIS: Yeah, we're announcing $100 million in Series C funding led by investors at Bond and The Chernin Group with participation from Andreessen Horowitz and Rich Paul. You know who Rich Paul is? The CEO of Klutch Sports Group.

EMMA: As in, Adele's Rich Paul? I saw her in Las Vegas last year, and then went deep into Google.

CHRIS: Funny the many different paths to knowing who Rich Paul is. Also Jens Grede who's the CEO co-founder of SKIMS, and Mood Rowghani from BOND is joining the board. Basically, we're just thrilled. It's very exciting. There's something kind of special happening on Substack. We're building the plumbing for it. We're building the tools, technology and network and the bits that enable it, but it's really sort of you and everybody that's using the platform that's willing this thing into the world. Now we have this massive set of resources to make this thing the biggest and best version that it can possibly be.

EMMA: Lots of people who follow my newsletter are solo entrepreneurs. They don't have teams, they don't necessarily have targets, they don't build the platforms but want to make things. For you, what happens next? Where do you put the money? I'm assuming you hire more people and make a better platform?

CHRIS: Yeah, this gives us a chance to look really long term at what the biggest and best version of this thing that we're building can be. To build a company that can move fast enough and well enough to realise the biggest version of that. And so it means investing in the teams who are building the tools, building the network, helping writers and creators succeed.

EMMA: What about learnings from other tech companies and learning from the past? In 2013, I was in Twitter HQ in London with my little mug with the bird on, and having an amazing time. And, well, we all know what happened to that. I was so sad about the decline of a great place. Do you keep that in mind? All of the stuff that other social networks got wrong?

CHRIS: Yeah, we try to learn from what other people have done. We've learned what other people have got wrong and what other people have got right. You know, one of our core theories we have at Substack is, ultimately, you want to have a business model that's aligned with the values of what you're building. We make money when writers and creators on Substack make money. They make money when they're doing the work they believe in. I think that's maybe one of the most important lessons we've taken from some of the first generation social networks: they had these really lofty ambitions (and in many cases, quite good goals) but then wound up with these business models, which, on the one hand, were massively successful, but on the other hand, kind of pulled against the interests of the human beings who are using the networks.

EMMA: How do you maintain that human element that makes everything so special at the beginning, when something grows? Because on one hand, it's like, I want everyone to know what Substack is, and on the other hand, it's like the cool band that I feel like I discovered, and I don't want people to come in and dilute it!

CHRIS: We’re trying to make something that is, essentially, a positive sum game. Some people have this feeling like, oh, man, if some well known person comes to Substack, or somebody else on Substack is really succeeding, that must be taking away from me, because there's this limited set of attention and money and universe. I think people (especially coming from from media over the past few decades) have this feeling of like, Alright, there's a declining share of resources, and I need to grab my piece of it. But the thing that I think is special about Substack is that it's positive, right? As more people come in, more people participate. It's this pie that's actually growing, and the more that it grows, the more benefit it can throw off for everybody.

HAMISH MCKENZIE: And the better the pie tastes. It's not just a crappy pie, it's gonna be a delicious, nutritious pie.

CHRIS: And it can't be just for cool people. It can't just be for any sort of one group. Not for Substack to be the place that's like, Oh, this is where the cool literary scene is, or this is where the in the know politics people hang out, or this is where the musicians are making something interesting, but rather, for us to build a platform that has enough structure that all those spaces can exist.

EMMA: Yeah, that's so well put. I love that. Because even though I'm sure there is a small top percentage of people earning the most on Substack, wouldn't it be amazing if there is the ability for everyone to maybe have a lovely income stream through Substack, if they want to?

CHRIS: Yeah. I mean, you want the tools to take payments, and then you want to be able to grow. We sometimes joke that the product proposition for Substack is, we'll do everything for you, except the hard part.

EMMA: The hard part as in coming up with the ideas?

CHRIS: Making the creative work that is actually valuable.

EMMA: It’s also the joyful part.

CHRIS: We want to make like a machine that makes everything else magically work.

EMMA: The recommendations network within Substack is the best thing. I talk about it all the time. So many of my new readers come from the inner network of Substack, and that's incredible. I have noticed a little bit of a plateau though. I know things can't grow like crazy forever. Are you working on more tools to foster this growth within the Substack eco-system?

CHRIS: This is a huge focus for us. This is why the Substack app is a crucial part of the strategy. We think a lot about not just the volume of growth, but the quality of growth. Like, are you getting subscribers that are going to want to read you? Are you getting subscribers that want to pay? You know, the core of the Substack is really the value of that subscription relationship.

EMMA: I do love the app, but I also want to make sure that I write and I sit at my desk and I think about things deeply. And I want to sit at my desk and write, and think about the world. On the app, sometimes I do end up mindlessly scrolling, and I'm like, ‘Oh, this is what I wanted to escape from on other social media.’ Do you think Notes takes attention away from the deeper essays or long reads that we want to read?

CHRIS: You know, originally the Substack app was just a quiet reader app. Instead of reading things in your inbox, you can read them in this quiet, nice space. That was kind of like a cool tool. But what it didn't do is help you discover new things, and it didn't help you grow. It just meant that you had to go to other places, like Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, Reddit, and you were sort of dependent on these other networks to actually fill that need of discovering and reaching out and being part of the discourse. So the real advantage of the Substack Notes feed, is: we want to make something that's fun and engaging, that you actually want to go to and spend some time on—but so that you discover things that you fall in love with, enough that you might want to pay for them.

EMMA: I love following you on Notes and what you're up to. You also get so many people being like “add this/do this/change this.” Is it cool to be in a position now where you've got, like, a shopping list of things to upgrade?

HAMISH: Yeah, our build list is just going to be determined by the things that people tag us about in Notes. [laughs]

EMMA: It must be annoying. [laughs]

CHRIS: Well, I always appreciate getting feedback, and I always appreciate people telling us what they're feeling and how it's working. I will say that lobbying for things on Notes is not effective.

EMMA: That's a good tip. Is there anything that you're excited about personally right now? To do with Substack?

CHRIS: There are lots of things. One thing is this Live product that we've been building. The idea of the Live product is I can have something that basically feels like a FaceTime call. It's as simple as just calling somebody up, but it magically turns into a collaborative Live moment where we can both grow and then have a longform podcast artefact that can go in a podcast app or on YouTube.

HAMISH: I'm really excited about the development of this network that is now established. It's not the largest network on the internet, but it's established, and it's growing, and it has so much potential, that could serve as the core for an entirely new cultural ecosystem (a challenger to the ones that have dominated for the last 10 years). We had high hopes for them, but they've ended up—in most cases—disappointing us or dividing us. And so that this is now established, and we get a ton of resources now to go and recruit more and more people to this revolution. That is thrilling to me.

EMMA: At the Substack summer party in London, I looked around and it was full of TV presenters and radio DJs and documentary makers and authors, these amazing people. And I think it was Ted Gioia who said “the talent base of Substack is the impressive thing”. Do you want to focus on that retention of these types of people on the platform?

CHRIS: Yes, it's very exciting when established names come to Substack, but it's also very exciting when a new generation of people can make those names for themselves and get their start. You know, who did not come from having some famous media job or having some being a bestselling author. If you're a young person right now who has the ambition to make something great, I think it would be very easy to look at the world and think: how can I find my way into that (media) world?

EMMA: I think that's so true, and that's why the engine that you're building is so important, because we all know the feeling of starting something and then it's just in a vacuum. No one sees it, no one's engaging with it. So yeah, I love that you’re focusing on making things discoverable for people.

HAMISH: Yeah, that's the game. That's the game we're trying to play here. Bring people together, convene about culture, and then help them find each other.

EMMA: I saw the Airmail piece about Sophia and Matt in your events team — it very cool, very chic — essentially profiling members of your team. It's basically saying “this is the cool place to be”. I love that Substack do events, is that something you want to continue doing?

HAMISH: I think representing the Substack culture and values in the real world, as well as just on the internet (not that the internet's not the real world), but having a place where people come together and enjoy culture together and have these meaningful shared experiences, there's very much a continuation of the ethos that lies at the heart of the platform. Sophia Efthimiatou and Matt Starr (who have been responsible for the incredible events a large number of them, at least in New York) in particular embody the spirit of people who really value culture.

EMMA: I sense a deep rooted motivation from you both, I always have, from the start, that this platform feels slightly different. There's an integrity and a really great energy. What is your ultimate goal for Substack? Is it just to continue on being a great place, or do you have a specific moment that you are hoping to reach in the next few years?

CHRIS: I think we're living through a period of profound change right now. I think there's new technology coming online that's changing everything. I think there is social and cultural and geopolitical change, and those things come with problems and peril. You know, when you have massive technological shifts, there's always downsides, there's always things that come up, but there are also massive opportunity. I think of it as like building the plumbing that enables a renaissance. We want to build a successful, independent company that can power that thing to be the biggest and best version of itself.

HAMISH: It's not about a particular moment. Just every day that the network gets bigger and better and then more and more people can succeed as a result is a next celebration for us. This is a long term work in progress where we're not looking for a specific business outcome or a specific even ecosystem outcome. It is a living and breathing culture.

EMMA: Thanks so much for your time. I feel very invigorated at the moment, and a large part of that is the empowerment I feel to be paid for my work in such a direct way via Substack. As much as I love being traditionally published as a writer, I think one day I'm going to look back and think it is kind of crazy that I have to go into a building to record an audiobook, be ‘picked’ as a person that's allowed to do that, and then be paid money in royalties. I don't think we're quite grasping how revolutionary life is for writers/creators right now. I hope you have a good week and look forward to seeing you again soon.

HAMISH. Thank you, Emma. Thanks for showing the way for others as well. You're a huge leader on the Substack platform and an advocate for a different way of thinking about things.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehyphen.substack.com/subscribe

I had such fun chatting to Eleanor Wilkinson author of ONE POT ONE PORTION about the joys of solo eating, our love of solo travel, the difference between loneliness & chosen solitude, why I wrote my novel TABLE FOR ONE and what we’re currently reading. We can’t believe that nearly 4,000 people tuned in on a Saturday—thank you so much and hope you enjoyed our conversation!

Thank you Lauren Powell, Ana Castro, Matheus de Souza, Shane Lim, Ani Payumo, and many others for tuning into my live video with Eleanor Wilkinson!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehyphen.substack.com/subscribe

This is Creative Coffee with Emma Gannon, a new series exploring creativity and how to live more creative lives over coffee with someone I admire. Less of an interview, more of a fly on the wall conversation. This is the last episode of this season, but I hope to be back soon — and I am planning to write a piece all about what I’ve learned launching a podcast on Substack.

Today my guest is Jonathan Fields. Jonathan is the man behind The Good Life Project (a podcast I’ve enjoyed listening to over the years with guests like Brene Brown, Dan Pink and Glennon Doyle) and author of multiple books: most recently Sparked and Uncertainty. Jonathan is also new to Substack with his newsletter Awake at the Wheel with Jonathan Fields which he decided to launch from scratch even though he’s been building communities for decades.

In this episode, we talk about living a creative life, how 9/11 changed Jonathan’s outlook; how success can simply mean to keep going, starting from scratch on Substack and the power of using his writing skills to create something privately, in Jonathan’s case: a book for only his daughter to read.

ICYMI links:

* Listen to The Good Life Project podcast.

* Jonathan’s books.

* Jonathan’s Substack: Awake at the Wheel with Jonathan Fields

* My episode on the Good Life Project project: “How to reclaim ease, sanity and success.”

* Recording your family member’s life story.

Other Creative Coffee episodes:

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehyphen.substack.com/subscribe