How do you create a client experience that feels personal, luxurious, and effortless from start to finish? It’s all about treating your clients like they’re valued friends, while also adapting to their lifestyle and what they love.

In this episode of the Creative Genius Podcast, Erin Weir sits down with celebrated interior designer Tina Ramchandani to explore how to elevate every aspect of the client journey. Tina is known not only for her clean, warm aesthetic but also for the way she makes her clients feel heard, supported, and at ease throughout the design process. Her firm, Tina Ramchandani Creative, specializes in full-service interior design with a high level of attention and care. And in this episode, she shares the exact strategies that make that possible.

From the very first inquiry to the post-installation follow-up, Tina brings intentionality to every touchpoint. In the episode, she walks through her onboarding process, why she sets aside time for every client inquiry, and how she customizes proposals to reflect each client’s priorities. She also discusses the importance of building a team culture that values service and consistency, even as her business has grown.

Tina and Erin also talk about:

Whether you’re a solo designer or leading a larger team, Tina’s thoughtful approach will inspire you to revisit your own client journey and even refine it in ways that leave a lasting impression.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s13e8-shownotes

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Great, so Tina, thank you so much for being here today. We’re gonna be talking all about the client journey from that very first inquiry of a design client coming in, seeing if they’re the right fit to the full project completion. And of course, all of the thoughtfulness, the systems, the personal touches and everything in between to create a really seamless high touch experience for a happy client.

So why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about Tina and your world in design?

Well, thank you. I’m so excited to be chatting with you as always today. My name is Tina Ramchandani. I am an interior designer based in New York City. I have a small but mighty team. We focus on warm, modern interiors that we call soulful minimalism. And the idea behind this is we like to create environments for our clients so they are surrounded.

by the things that matter so they can focus on the people that matter. So it’s really building a welcoming lifestyle for them that reflects who they are and what their family represents.

I love that. All right, so let’s start at the very beginning. How do your clients typically find you and what does your intake process look like?

Yeah, so our clients find us in a number of ways. Referrals are always the best. Oftentimes, they are friends of past clients. They have many times been in the homes that we’ve designed, whether it’s for drinks or dinner or play dates. They’ve seen our work firsthand. We also have a great referral system. So we get a lot of leads from realtors. That’s a great one for us. And

A lot of people say that they find us on Instagram, though I don’t know that it is necessarily truly Instagram. Some people are from Instagram Direct, but others have found us throughout the years. Maybe it is word of mouth or maybe it is from an article that we’ve been published in or, you know, a referral source, another referral source. And then they start following us on Instagram and they follow us for a number of years before they’re ready to reach out. So we have sort of a good

multi-prong system of where our leads are coming from.

And tell me a little bit about your referral system with your realtors because you said that’s it’s past class realtors are your best resources.

Yeah, well, in New York City, you you’re not allowed to pay for referrals for realtors. So really, it’s just good energy. So I like to be around people that are kind and supportive and like minded and people that I enjoy and I have fun with. And so I meet a lot of realtors in our business and we have coffees and drinks and

just kind of hang out and we’ve become friends and I’ll do for them whatever I can, you know, if it’s advice on their own home or helping them with something that they need for a client floor plans or just general advice, referrals to contractors or painters or whatever. And in return, they share my name along with others for their people that are closing on their homes. And we’re, it’s not just one, they don’t just say, call Tina. They say, hey, call Tina and to other people. We get a call and

Most of the time it works out.

Well, I’m wondering too with your clients, if you get so many referrals from clients, that usually means you’ve got a great client journey, which obviously we’re talking about today. Because if you’ve got happy clients, then they’re wanting to share the good news of who helped them with their beautiful home and hey, know, she, I can get you in contact with Tina as well. I’m excited to learn about your client journey today and those touch points.

Yeah, well, we’re always working on the client journey and we really enjoy working with great people. So it’s kind of a natural progression on how we work with these clients, but I’m happy to talk about it.

All right, well, let’s start with that discovery call. What do you gather as far as information during the initial discovery call? Do you have like an intake form as they’re scheduling that discovery call?

No, we used to have a form. We found that half the time it wasn’t being filled out and it was annoying to nag people to fill this out. We work with high end clients and they oftentimes are busy professionals and they don’t want to be bothered to take an extra step. they reach out however they reach out. If it is on Instagram direct, if it’s through the website, if it’s through house, if it’s through an email.

They reach out and Laura, who’s our operations manager, sets up a call. So we prefer Zoom. Sometimes it is just a phone call, but right away we just offer them the next available time and we try and hop on a Zoom to chat with them.

Okay, and then what are some of the requirements that she’s using to know that they’re the right fit for you to move forward as a true prospect for your business?

So actually, both of us are on that first zoom. So yeah, we thought about having just Laura do it. We received feedback from clients that they loved that I was one of their first points of contacts. And I know that everybody does this differently and every firm is different. But some of our best clients have said that they’ve gotten on a call with a designer or a design firm and the designer wasn’t on the call. And that’s why they didn’t go with that firm. So I will still be on

every Zoom, if humanly possible, unless I am out of town or something, I will be on that Discovery Zoom to really hear and see what the client is asking for.

So you really are taking what you’re hearing, the feedback that you’re hearing and implementing it and going, okay, this might work for other people to not have the owner be on the very first or the main designer to be on the very first call, but that’s not necessarily what your ideal client is looking for.

Yeah, they’re looking for a personal connection.

Okay, so do you have any, are some of those requirements that you’re looking for as far as an ideal client?

So really, obviously budget. So obviously they have to have a realistic idea of spend, but what I’m really listening for are their needs and their wants. If they are realistic about what they want to achieve in the budget, if they are realistic about timeframe, and if they are not realistic, are they open to feedback in a different way of working? So some people come to us with no clue. They say, I don’t know what my budget is going to be.

These are the things that I want. I may suggest a range. And if they say that’s great, then we can continue the conversation. If they say that’s way out of line, then that’s our answer right there. Some people say I want something overnight. And if we say this is what we can do for you overnight versus what’s realistic, if they’re open to different ways of working, we can continue the conversation. So I think that’s another reason that I’m on the call along with Laura is so the two of us can hear things and everybody hears.

things differently, right? So I might hear something one way, Laura may hear something another way. We’ll get off the call and confer and say, this is what I think that they wanted. The majority of the time we’re able to come up with a way of working with people, but it’s nice to have both of us on that call.

Do you find that you have certain professions or occupations that are not really a great fit for your creative or your personality and your work style? I some people are like, you know, avoid attorneys or they avoid accountants or, you know, there’s certain occupations that it’s just like, you know, that that’s not really an occupation that you can drive with or do you feel like you’re-

to think that, but I don’t anymore. I want to love attorneys. think attorneys are amazing and they are to the point. They understand my time billing and they are very clear with what they want. No, I don’t think it is for me personally, it’s not a profession. It is a approach to the world. So we really look for kindness and we look for

Someone who understands what’s really important in life. So I think you can be in any profession, but if you understand that delays are not anybody’s fault and we are really here to do the best for you, then we’re gonna be a good fit together. So I don’t think it’s a profession thing, for me personally.

So what kind of tools do you use to manage this discovery process of bringing prospects and bringing them into clients?

people have so I appreciate that.

Well, we used to use DubSato as our CRM. And this is when we had the forms. So we had a really robust system and it would send out reminders and we kept track of everything and there were tags. But honestly, it was too much because most of the clients that are looking to hire us are, like I said, very busy and they don’t want a lot of…

connection point via email or text to remind them that we have a call X, Y, and Z. So they email us or they message us, we email them back, set up a call, they get a calendar invite with the Zoom link, it goes into our spreadsheet with many, columns because Gail likes us to track our closing rates. closing on top, right? Yeah, you gotta, you gotta, where they came from, the closing rates and all the things.

But it’s a simple spreadsheet and it’s great because anyone can add, you know, we have an amazing admin named Kristin. She’s the one filling out the spreadsheet, but I can go in and like see what’s happening very easily.

So everybody’s on the same page of where that client is at. Okay. So then once the client is ready to move forward, how do you guide them into your world, into the onboarding process? that they’re excited, they know the action’s happening and that they’re in the right hands.

So one of the things that we’ve done is we’ve branded our proposal and our client roadmap, which happens after they’ve signed the contract. So they’re getting a proposal with our pictures and information about us, all of that stuff, time billing, how much to expect. They see it in a beautiful way. They understand it. We have another zoom. They say, yes, we move into a contract. Once the contract is signed,

Laura sends them a pretty detailed email with a roadmap. So again, it’s branded and it has highlights of all the things. What are meeting structures like, which they already knew from before, but we say it again, you know what the meeting structure is like. We suggest meeting dates. So we let them know ahead of time. These are the dates that we’re going to be seeing you. And this is what we’re going to be discussing. Here’s a link to your Dropbox.

These are the things that we need from you, right? Like if we’re in New York City, we need your alteration agreement. We need the information for your super. If you’re working with any trades, we need all of that stuff. So it’s pretty information. It’s full of information that they have to digest. And we’re also working on another checklist because we know that even though it’s all in there, there are personality types that can’t have that much information.

They have this roadmap, they have it in an email, and we’re working on a quick checklist to get all of that stuff through.

Okay. And then how are you setting expectations around the timelines, the budget communication style? How are you gathering all of that and letting them know what your expectations are, but also understanding how they want to be communicated with and.

So honestly, it goes back to that first discovery call because at that time, I also discuss our process and I tell them, this is how long design is gonna take, right? So if we keep it really simple and we’re not doing any construction and it’s a straight decorative project, for us to design to the level that you see our work, we’re at four to five months before you’ve purchased anything. That’s how long it’s gonna take us to get to this stage.

So we let them know ahead of time and we have the cadence of meetings is about six weeks. You’ve got four to five meetings in there. Around meeting three, we can start purchasing if we need to pivot because we do pivot for clients and their specific needs. So we save in the beginning, it’s in the proposal, it’s again in the roadmap, and then they get calendar invites to their suggested meeting dates so they know when they’re gonna see us. So there is no confusion about what we’re doing.

Okay, and what about communication style around hiccups in the project, right? Like when you run into a roadblock or you’ve got some information that maybe is not exactly what they’re going to want to hear. How do you address that upfront on how you’re going to communicate that? Yeah.

I pick up the phone and call them. So every project has a lead designer plus me. The lead designer is really the person that’s going to push this project through and get everything done properly. They are also the ones that are in communication with the client daily or weekly because we send weekly updates to them. So any small hiccups that happen, they can go into the email. That’s easy because you’re also getting updates from the, from our team weekly. So

A couple things here and there. Hey, dining table’s delayed, no big deal. That stuff is all in the email. If it’s a really big issue, they will hear it from me. I will pick up the phone and call. Unless there is some reason I can’t make a phone call, the senior designer, the lead designer will make that phone call. I think you need to kind of talk about it. You don’t know when someone’s going to check their email. They could be on the subway and find, or they could be having a horrible day. And then you put something in an email and people will react. So I think it’s important to talk.

For sure, for sure. So do you have any rituals or materials outside of that roadmap for how the project’s gonna lay out that help those clients feel excited and cared for right from the beginning? Yeah.

Well, we do a lot of gifting. So when they are signed on, they will get a gift from us. Sometimes it’s at the discovery or, you know, first discovery meeting because it’s soon after signing. If the meeting is going to be scheduled a few months out, we send them a gift. We also gift throughout the process. So if your birthday is during the project, you’re getting something for your birthday. If we’re in construction and

you feel like the client is going to get frustrated because things are taking longer, they’re going to get some wine or liquor from us, depending on what they want. we don’t have a set thing for each phase, but we’re constantly thinking about how is the client feeling and what do they want? So sometimes it’s also a handwritten note, like, thinking of you.

XYZ, if I’m out shopping for another client and I know that they’re probably feeling anxious about something, I’ll shoot them a quick text, even though we don’t really text our clients and say, hey, saw this, thought of you, I’m gonna call you on Monday, just so they always feel like they’re top of mind.

Yeah, because it seems pretty clear that they are. It’s not something that you have to try to do. It’s something that you’re not doing because that’s part of who you are too. that’s great.

Because we want to feel so connected with them so we can design specifically for them. So we get in their head and we understand that.

Right, because that’s how you can do the best, the best job for them. Yeah. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about the design process and your workflow with that. I don’t think we need to walk through the whole design process, but what does your meeting structure look like for those project timelines that you said that you pre-schedule, you give suggested dates for pre-scheduled meetings?

But then what does the format of those meetings look like? Is it something that they come into the office, you meet them out on the site?

It depends on the project and what’s happening. We like to have them in the office as much as possible. So for our first meeting, which is discovery, it may be a blend. We may go to their house because we also have to survey. Or if it is a different location, we’ll have them come in for discovery and then we’ll go survey later. Vision is always in the office because we are presenting a lot of material, right? We’re not just

visuals like a presentation deck, we’ve got rug samples and flooring samples and metal and marble. So we have a lot of stuff. So we do it here in the office. Also, we can then pull from other things if they’re not feeling like it’s the right thing. So that’s always in person in the office. If we’re doing a remote project, we will send a full set to them or we will fly down with all of our materials to do it in person. I don’t think virtual works for this meeting. We’ve done it. It’s OK. It can happen.

too right?

If we don’t have to, I love being in front of people. So the more we can really see what they’re seeing, the better. And then the decorative meetings are in person in the office. But if we’re doing architectural meetings, it could be that we’re on site and we’re bringing materials to them. So it is a blend. But as much as we can be in front of them, we will.

So talk to me about some of the specific milestones of those meetings that you use as check-ins with the client. So not necessarily, I guess you have your meeting milestones, but you probably also have communication milestones with your clients as well.

Yeah, we check in with them, I’ll say, or Laura will check in with them four times throughout the process, right? Like right after we start, make sure everything’s going okay, how’s everybody feeling? Is it what you expected? Were you confused? Right? Everything’s great. And then let’s say if we’re doing a renovation or a new construction project, probably another quarter of the way through because we’re really deep into decision-making.

It can get stressful. It’s a lot of stuff that we’re showing people. So she’s checking in again, and she’s on a lot of the emails so she can tell when people are getting frustrated if she needs to move that meeting ahead of time. But these are just calls with her to make sure everything’s good. Okay. These are not, you know, these are not design check-ins. We’re doing that anyway. But these are operational check-ins to make sure the client is understanding everything. They like the cadence of the meetings. They like how information is being presented.

And we can pivot if we need to, right? If someone feels like we’re giving them too much information in a meeting, we can split them into smaller meetings. If they feel like we’re not working at a pace that they want us to work, we work very fast. That means we’re still gonna split it up. You’re gonna get more information quicker versus us doing a lot of design and doing a large meeting. Yeah.

So what are some of the ways that you make sure the clients feel seen and heard and cared for throughout the project? It sounds like there’s definitely a common theme of almost like vibe checks through the communication between and being always having them top of mind and making them feel that way. But what are some other ways that you are making sure that the clients really feel that?

think between the gifting and the check-ins, they feel seen and heard. I know other people take their clients to lunches or dinners. I think most of our clients are too busy for that. And when they have some downtime, they want to be with their family. So we totally understand. So it could be that we send them something so that they can do something with their family. They may not necessarily want to have lunch or dinner with me, but they can.

Use something I’ve given them with their family.

I love that. That definitely feels like at home to me because it’s like the end of the day after a busy day and you you’ve got you’re going in 72 directions. I mean, especially in New York City, just to have that downtime and that family time at home or out with your family is so important. So how do you personalize the experience for each client? So you have a consistency in your process, but how do you keep that like personalization that’s happening?

You know, I think it comes down to really listening to them. In the beginning, when we started our gifting process, we had a whole spreadsheet of this is the gift that you get for this milestone, or this is what you get for your birthday. But everyone is so different, right? You know, some people like tea and don’t like coffee, so we’re not going to send them coffee, right? We’re just listening to what they say to us and how they respond to us. And when we’re with them, because we’re with them so often, we can see what they’re saying and doing.

and we personalize the gifting to them. If we know that their kid loves pink cupcakes, then that might be what they’re getting, right? To make their child happy. But it also comes down to some people are also not phone people, right? Now I’ve heard you and I see you and the only time you’re gonna get a phone call from me is when something’s really wrong, then they know it’s serious that I’m calling them, right? It’s just checking in on who they are and how they’re coming forward and then reacting to them.

So I know text messaging is a big deal in business in general, but especially for designers. We talk to so many designers that are like, oh my gosh, I have all these clients that are texting me and it’s in the middle of the night and it’s over the weekend. And it’s painful to watch because there’s such a lack of boundaries setting around that. But you mentioned that you don’t really text them very often. That’s not really how you communicate. Is email the main form of communication for you?

Email, I tell everyone in the beginning, email is the best because everyone can be on it. If you send me a text, I might read it and then forgot that I’ve read it. Yeah, that’s then you’re going to think that I’m ghosting you, but I’m just, too busy during the day. You know, even if I’m working on your project, my brain might be in a different part of your project. So I may not remember to tell your lead designer what you’ve texted me. So put it in an email. If I,

can remember, will screenshot it and put it in Slack for the team, but it’s really hard for me during the day to get back to people. email is best if I get a text and I do remember, I emailed them back. So it’s very clear. Yeah. But most, we don’t have this problem. Knock on wood. Luckily we don’t have this problem. Our clients are very respectful, but it also comes back to the client that we’re selecting, right? We are selecting people that

Okay.

value us and value their time and value their family. So they also don’t want to be harassing you. And so if they do start texting quite a bit, I will say to them, you can keep texting me, but it’s not going to help your project go faster because I’m going to forget. This is just who I am. This is my personality. So put it in an email and they get it. And of course, correct.

Okay, so then when it comes to like the reports that they’re getting every week, that’s via email as well. Yeah. Okay. And then you mentioned Slack. So not everybody uses Slack. I know we use it in our company. It’s a communication tool that allows you to have things that are channels per project or like, you know, a marketing channel or a PR channel, that sort of thing. So allows you to organize.

Conversation right by channel. So you mentioned Slack you use that internally. Does that work. In company.

or yeah.

Yeah, we use Slack and we use Asana as well. We use Slack more for quick communication, just getting information across to the team, quick files. We are in the office three days a week. Some weeks we’re here five days a week, some weeks it’s three days a week. So today’s Friday.

Most of the team’s working from home, but we’re still designing, right? So if they’re sending me a screenshot of what a layout looks like, they can send it in Slack and I can respond and we can get things done very easily. This also helps when we’re on site because we can send each other things. We can share. just saw this, especially for me, who is the, I’m the bottleneck. I will be the one that forgets to tell people that someone called me or said something to me, put it in Slack. If it’s nighttime, I’ll schedule it to go in the morning so I don’t bother anyone. But the information gets across.

Yeah, it’s been a great tool for us as well. Yeah, you have some contractors over in slack as well. So some of your stuff.

We just started this, we’re gonna see how it goes. We have them as external team members. I don’t want them saying all of our nonsense right now. They may not want to continue chatting with us if they hear at all. We’ve got one of our contractors on Slack and they’ve got their own channels for each project because they’re working on quite a few projects for us. So for each of those clients, they have their own Slack channels and

We are sharing information with them. This is similar to what we would be doing when we text them, but it’s great because we all have transparency. So sometimes there’s a text with just me and one person or the designer and the other person. This way everybody sees what everybody’s saying and we can all catch each other’s issues.

Yeah, and I always say it’s the fastest easiest way to get a hold of me. I’m not necessarily going to see an email. I’m not necessarily going to remember a text message. I do try to make an effort to go back to those things, but if it’s in Slack, it’s the highest priority and it’s easiest thing for me to check.

It’s easy to flip through, right? Like at the end of the day, I can flip through all the channels and make sure I didn’t miss anything. But there’s so many text messages and I don’t read them all. There’s like a thousand unread text messages. that I know you would see my phone and like throw it against the wall. I know it’s not for everyone, but this is how I operate.

Okay, well, let’s talk about your team. How does your team play into the client experience and how do you make sure that there’s consistency in how you’re training them to communicate when you’re in a client facing either role or scenario?

Yeah. Well, I will say everyone that we hire at some point is client facing. So you have to be able to communicate efficiently and clearly with clients and you have to be kind and approach approach everything with positivity. That’s one of our core values. Our lead designers are the main point of contact with our clients. So they are talking to them daily and or weekly. They are the ones you’re going to see on site.

I am obviously very, very involved in everything, but they are the ones that are going to be talking to the client. So when we are hiring people, we’re really looking for people that can explain our point of view and answer questions in a way that clients will understand. And we work on this, right? So if we are having an issue, it’s always brought to me and Laura and we brainstorm, how do we approach this? What do we say to someone?

so we can get ahead of anything, especially if someone’s on site and the client may be there, we’ll get a phone call or we’re going to say, hey, this is the thing. So we can quickly say, this is what we’re going to talk about. And this is, you know, this is the right solution. And our, and our designers, because our clients are mostly wonderful, our designers are open to talking to them the way that they would talk to us and we can brainstorm with them together. think Laura takes a temperature of them. So she does have

like a unique point of view when she speaks with them.

Okay, yeah. So in talking a little bit about creating moments of delight for your clients throughout their process with you, it sounds delightful so far. I’m being communicated with, I’m being well taken care of, you’re remembering me, I’m top of mind, I’m being heard. Do you have any signature touches or surprise moments that you try to include as you’re wowing your clients in the process?

I don’t know if it’s a signature touch, but you know, in our onboarding gift, there is a book that we were published in. And so the client gets that along with something else. Toffee actually is probably one of our signatures. I know you guys use this too. The endstroms toffee is my favorite. The dark chocolate. Yep. The dark chocolate is our favorite. So we end up giving that out during

the Christmas holidays, but sometimes even during the onboarding because it’s a big, mostly requested gift for our clients. So we put that in sometimes into onboarding, definitely into Christmas. When clients come in, we always have something for them to nosh on. So it could be croissants. There’s an amazing bakery nearby that we have the most delicious croissants in New York City delivered. If a client is vegan, they’ll have nuts. We have great nuts for them to eat.

If it’s an evening meeting and we’re talking about budget, you will have champagne or white wine or sometimes a cocktail. If we know somebody like loves the groneys, we will make the groneys for them. And it’s really just thinking about what they love. Right. It’s like having your friend over. If you know your friend like something, you’re going to get it for them so they feel comfortable in your house. So it’s really just being attentive. And then our holiday gifts, obviously the endstroms. But we always try and find something fun. I think last year we had really unique soap.

and dish that I found at a trade show. I got that for everyone. So it’s just finding unique things to put a smile on people’s faces.

Okay, yeah, the instruments is great. It’s actually toffee made here in Denver.

No, it was the toffee of the queen.

What is it?

I mean, I can take my kids there for like ice cream and taffy after school if I want to. More recently for our boardroom, we put together actual pro collective boxes. So we took a little couple extra steps with them to have a customized box. okay. I love it. Okay, so looking back, what changes have you made to your workflow that you think have really improved your client experience?

I think I got one. Yeah, I think I got one.

You didn’t start, I mean, you’re a very personal person and you want to care for people. can tell, I know that as your friend already. you know, lesson learned, right? Like as you go through the process, what are some of those improvements and changes that you’ve made over time?

I think setting expectations is huge. And I didn’t quite know how to do that in the beginning. I thought I was telling people what we were doing and I wasn’t clear enough. So now our motto is you cannot say it enough times. You have to say it 10 times for someone to understand what you’re trying to say. So the meeting structure and meeting process, the way that we design, I say it on our first phone call, I say it

Every time I see them, when I see them for a meeting, I tell them what to expect in the next meeting. You we start every meeting with a meeting agenda and I say, this is what we’re going to talk about today. And then when we leave, we repeat everything that we’ve heard. We do not just walk out of a meeting. We reiterate all of the decisions that were made or all of the questions that were asked. And then we tell them what they’re going to expect in the next meeting. And then when the next meeting is done, we are trying to be overly clear and overly communicative.

so that everybody feels that they understand what’s going on. We have a Dropbox. Everything goes into the Dropbox. Nobody reads anything in the Dropbox. But the one time when they are frustrated in the middle of the project because there’s nothing to do and we’re just in construction, they will go in that Dropbox and I hope everything is in there. But these are the things that we have started to do or have done to make clients feel more comfortable.

So it’s like, there’s this how we’re going to communicate. This is where you can find your stuff. If there’s an emergency, I’m going to pick up the phone and call you. It seems simple overall.

Really just telling people what you’re gonna do and then doing it.

Yeah, and easier said than done sometimes, right? It’s so simple. All right, well, what are three pieces of advice that you would give other designers and our listeners today to take back to their businesses in life as they’re trying to elevate their client journey?

I don’t think that, I mean, Gail has taught me this and you’ve taught me this. You can’t do it all at once. So pick a part of the journey that you’re trying to edit or improve upon and work on that before you work on the whole thing. Because I think it’s too overwhelming and there are too many small parts that make up the big journey. So you have to really start focusing. Are you gonna focus on the intake? Are you gonna focus on the gifting? Are you gonna work on the communication? Pick one thing and really focus on that first and the rest will follow.

Ask your clients what they think about your process. That is really the hardest thing for me to do because I love getting feedback, but I don’t know how to do it without feeling like I’m bothering them. You know, because I never want to feel like I’m annoying people and working on that. But it’s really hard for me because I always feel like people are too busy, but they kind of want to tell you they love you.

You know, so we’ve decided that from my personal comfort, Laura has to ask them, you know, someone on your team needs to ask, is it in a Google form where they fill it out? Or is it, you know, on the phone if they’re phone people, but just asking them how you’re doing and what you can be doing better or what you could be doing less of? Because some of the feedback that we got was we are sending too many Friday updates.

when the majority of the work has been done, they don’t want to hear from us anymore until something else important happens. So that was really important feedback from us. For us, those are two things. I don’t know about the third, but maybe it’s just listening to your gut. Because you kind of know how everyone’s feeling and you know when they’re upset, you know where they’re happy and kind of trust yourself.

Yeah, and put yourself in their shoes, I think is what I agree with today. You know how you would want to be treated if you were being that level of investment in time and dollars into something that you’re going to use every single day as your sanctuary. So I think that makes a lot of sense. Well, Tina, thank you so much for being on today. I always love getting to catch up with you and get your vibe and your beat coming on.

I know you’ve been very busy coming off of market and all sorts of different magazine covers and

It’s been a busy month, but I always love talking to you, so I’m really happy to have been here with you.

thank you so much. Thank you.

What if the best thing you could do for your business… was to step away from it?

In this special episode of the Creative Genius Podcast, Erin Weir sits down with Pearl Collective co-founder Gail Doby to explore the empowering experience of taking a sabbatical. Gail has taken multiple sabbaticals over the past five years, and in this episode, she shares why this practice is essential for visionary leaders—and how it became one of the most strategic decisions she made as a business owner.

Gail defines a sabbatical as “an extended period of time intentionally spent on something that’s not your routine job,” and breaks down the origins and misconceptions of the practice. For her, sabbaticals have ranged from deep reading and writing to moving homes and diving back into hands-on interior design. While each one looked different, every sabbatical provided a much-needed reset that sparked creativity, shifted her mindset, and empowered her team.

In this episode, you’ll learn how Gail prepared for her first sabbatical nearly a year in advance, setting up systems and handing over responsibilities to her team. She reflects on how her absence pushed the leadership team to grow: “I wanted you all to step up and show me what you have.” The experience helped her realize how critical it is to let go of control in order to grow both leaders and the business itself.

This episode also highlights:

Gail encourages all leaders—especially those in the interior design industry—to find ways to recharge creatively, whether through a long weekend away, a solo retreat, or a multi-week break. As she puts it, “Your time is now. Go do it.”

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s13e7-shownotes

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Well, Gail, it is great to finally get to podcast together again. It’s been a minute for our listeners since we’ve been on together.

Well, we both had a lot of things going on in 24 and now it’s 25 and it’s a new year and a new face. You’re leading the podcast this year, which is great. So it’s fun to be a guest for a change.

All right, well, I love it. And we’ve got you all set up in your new office setting. And so I’m loving your background. I’m still sticking to my very plain vanilla background for the moment, but you are inspiring me to switch up my background.

just a paint can. Oh, thank you. Yeah, they’re

I will buy you a can of

I love it. love it. Okay, so let’s, I want to talk today on the topic of sabbaticals. The idea of sabbaticals, how you know when it’s time, what it does for you as the business owner. I just think it’s such an interesting topic to uncover. And since you have done sabbaticals for a couple of years now, you’re the perfect person to talk to about this.

Yeah, it’s an annual event now and it’s actually gonna be twice this year and maybe.

From now on, you never know.

my gosh, well, I can’t wait.

you

You’re just ready for me to go away.

no, I didn’t say that out loud. No, just kidding. Okay, so let’s start off with what inspired you to take a sabbatical and how did you really know it was the right time?

Well, let me start with what a definition of sabbatical is. I think that is useful because a lot of people don’t know what it really is. And most of the time people think of it when it’s related to somebody who’s a college professor. And the word is it means it’s actually from Hebrew sabbat, which means arrest or break from work. And so in the in the arena of education.

A lot of universities at five or seven years will give a professor a year off so that they can do research and they can do study and they can work on writing papers and things like that that are necessary, doing research, traveling, going somewhere. So there are many reasons that people do sabbatical. And I was looking at some of the different definitions this morning, just getting ready for this and.

Here’s one that says an extended period of time intentionally spent on something that’s not your routine job. And so when you all as a team, when I was talking to you about sabbaticals, said I wanted to go on my first one, I know you all thought I was crazy because I said, well, I have some projects I want to work on. But that’s exactly what you get to do is choose what is the reason for having a sabbatical. And I’ve had four.

and I’m preparing for my fifth one. So I am starting to think about what that’s going to entail. And each one has been completely different. So to go back to your first question, which is, how did I know that it was time to do a sabbatical is because I was starting to think about preparing succession for the business, preparing the leadership team to be able to take on the business and run it while I was gone.

I knew and I felt it in my bones it was really essential for you all to have a break from me for a while and to have to take on the responsibility that I carried that was unseen. So a lot of us as CEOs of the business, we’re doing so many things behind the scenes that you all don’t know. You have no clue what we’re working on day to day. And the only way you’re going to ever feel that is for us to be away.

And so instead of taking a break that was maybe unplanned, like being sick or having an illness in the family or something like that, I decided that it was time for me to start bringing that into the company so that I was preparing you all for your future leadership roles.

Well, and I love that. And I, I do think that maybe the sabbatical could have even been the ticket to keep away the illness, right? Like, had you not taken breaks, then that could have been a thing that then you would have had to have been out of the business. I’m not saying that you’ve had any health issues. haven’t, but like, you know, that’s always something like, you know, the hit by the bus theory rate that we talk about in our planning. But what I do love about those, those definitions that you shared of sabbatical,

The two words that really ring true to me are intentional and rest. So even though you are working on projects, you have a different rhythm to what you’re doing during that time. So I really can appreciate that. So how far in advance? know you have been, you were talking, we really did think you were crazy at first when you wanted to do your first sabbatical. Now we’re like.

when she going on our next one, right? We’re ready. We’re ready. And we also love the product that comes from the sabbaticals, both in how you are able to come back rested and creative and really excited to for the next part of the journey. So how far in advance did you actually start planning those sabbaticals or your first one?

Okay, so the first one I thought about it for about two years, but a year out is when I came to you all and said, okay, I want to do a sabbatical and it’s going to happen. And it was literally a year. And so I gave you that heads up in that notice because I knew that I also had to prepare myself and I had to prepare the business and I had to prepare you for what was going to happen. And you know me, I’m a big planner and I don’t…

I work on things way ahead of time. So in my case, I knew that I had to prepare a lot of work that needed to be done so that I wasn’t not working or not getting the things done that I would have gotten done had I been working. So it took a lot of intentional work to get all of the things prepared so that podcasts were done, articles were written.

planning was done, a lot of things were in place so that I had that freedom to actually take the break that I needed to have. the first sabbatical, I actually read the most and I read 20, I think it was 21 books that sabbatical and I was off five weeks. And so for me, five weeks is enough. I’m not taking a year like a college professor would do. And so

For me to take five weeks off, I’ve never done that in my entire life. And usually if I took a vacation, the longest I would take is two weeks. So two weeks barely gives you enough time to come down off of the high of work and then get calm enough that you can have a different mindset during that sabbatical period of time. So for me, five weeks was pretty interesting. So I took a week of vacation first.

And I don’t remember where I went on the first one, but anyway, I took a week of vacation. And then after that week of vacation, I came back and just started working on projects and I started reading. So every single bit of the reading that I did was pivotal for the next year. And so for me, and we’ve talked about this a lot. I know you and I’ve chatted about it and Kristen has about the fact that where I get my ideas is from reading and from classes.

And so when I have the opportunity to read and think and just go into my little shell, because I like my little bubble, I like to be able to sit at my computer and I literally will sit down with an open document and just start writing and I’ll start thinking about things. And so for me, I guess I’m a little bit of an introvert in that way. I like to have that quiet time and that thinking time. And I like really long blocks of time because I can work in long blocks of

you know, six to eight hours where I can get a lot of reading done or I can be writing all day and write articles all day long. And so for me, I like to have those big chunks so that I can get deep into whatever I’m doing and I’m not getting distracted. And then it takes me another several days to get back to it. If you can do sequential work like this, it is incredible how much you can get done. So anyway, that first sabbatical was

A lot of reading, a lot of thinking, a lot of planning. And I know when I came back, I drove you all crazy.

We’ll get to that.

Yep.

Okay, so I do want to make a note to all the listeners that reading really is fuel for you. Yes. That’s not for everybody, right? Like we all have to read and be informed and continue our education. But as a GLW and the core of who you are, reading really does fuel you. And so that was a natural first step for you in that first sabbatical. Yeah.

So let’s get back to preparing the team. Cause we really, we really were like, guys, she’s not going to do this. Like, come on. And that was what year was that? was 2022?

Well, it’s been five years, so it’s 2020.

Oh dear, gosh, well that went by quickly. We were like, okay, she’s saying she’s gonna do this, but she’s probably not gonna do it. as we were six months out, you’re like, guys, I’m taking the sabbatical at the end of the year. And then we were 90 days out, we’re like, she’s really gonna do this. And you’re like, I really am doing this. And then we’re like, oh shit, this is really happening. So I think that…

Yep. There you go.

It was such an opportunity for our team to step up and for you to empower us in that way. But what are some of the things that you really needed to make sure that year that our team was prepared for you to be gone?

Well, this is a big one. And this is kind of the beginning of that transition plan and that succession plan before I had officially announced the succession plan. Right. So this is me saying, OK, you are responsible for making sure the bills are paid, that we have income coming in, that we have contracts signed, that the sales are happening without me. And it was a time when

I was out of that picture and it was on all of you to be able to do the things that I used to be doing, which was driving the sales, driving a lot of the things that were part of just operating the business. then also it’s just making sure that there was coverage and that the clients were okay and that they knew what was going on and that they were informed. And I was letting them all know, hey,

you know, this next, this at the end of the year, I will be off. So we will work around that. But I just want you to know that we’re not leaving you in the dark. So all of you had to be there to take care of the year end completion things. How do you complete the year? How do you make sure all of the, you know, the final planning is done, that next year’s planning is done. All these things had to be in place before I could feel really comfortable taking that time off.

And I will admit readily that I was still lurking and stalking you all on slow.

my gosh. I need to just make a note of this team. She is actually admitting to that.

yeah, I was watching Slack. was watching what was going on. Every once in a while, I couldn’t help myself. I would have to say something. And I remember getting chastised many times by you and Kristen and everybody saying, you’re off. You’re off. You’re not supposed to be here. Just go away. We got this under control. And it was kind of funny, though. But when I got back, I certainly got an earful about how hard it was.

I heard how stressed you all were with me being off because I think what happened and you tell me if I’m wrong here, but I think for the first time you all realize that I trusted you enough first of all, that I could take that time off and that you really had to step up and make the decisions without me because this was me saying, okay, I want to see how much you all can take charge of this.

without me being here to tell you what to do or to make those decisions, I wanted you all to step up and show me what you-

we were making decisions, we just weren’t making all the decisions. And I do think that it was the beginning of many lessons for me and moments and I still I still kind of every month or two have this happen where as I continue to grow in my role in the business, where I’m like, oh my god, like this is this is why Gail used to

to do this, this way. I’d be the recipient of that decision or that idea. And then I’d have to go figure out how to do it. And I’m like, my gosh, this is why she was thinking that way. Or like, my gosh, now I know why I always wanted everything to be like, it’s either A, B, or C, right?

And you were always like, well, what about like triple X over here? That could be a possibility. You know, and I’m like, where did that come from? And now that I am more in the shoes that you were in, in those moments of the business, I’m like, absolutely understanding that. Cause I’m like, well, guess it’s going to look a little bit different. You know, it’s not quite all black and white in the perfectly a tight box, know, perfect bows on the boxes that I, in the world that I used to live in. So.

so, you know, that was absolutely kind of the catalyst of the beginning of that journey of, guess, for me, better understanding you not only as a person, but as the visionary and the owner of the business. so, that was like, it was a gift, but it didn’t, it didn’t necessarily feel like a gift at the time because I was like, gee, pulling my hair out a couple of times, you know, and then, we obviously always want to make sure they.

that you are.

What’s the word proud of the team and that we’re accomplishing we’re continuing to accomplish and move toward the goals for the business and the overall vision of the company.

Well, think too, I would add to that that it was important for me to see a shift to an owner’s mindset because you and I are coming up on 20 years of working together too, which is massive. is usually a very unusual situation. And so for 20 years of working together,

You’ve grown from being an intern for me in my design business to now co-founder and VP of sales marketing. And so that’s a very big step in your growth. And now you understand because you’re every day responsible for making sure that we have a pipeline and that we have the business that we are trying to build. And so it’s a completely different mindset.

than just being there to show up for work every day, then do a job. Not that you’ve ever been completely that way. But what I’m saying is it shifts because then you start thinking about what I’m thinking about. And you’re thinking about cash flow and you’re thinking about all those things that become the daily mindset for the owner of the business because we are responsible for a team. We understand that we’re responsible for the happiness of our team and for the culture of our business.

And we have so many pressures on us as owners and the good and the bad is as you step up as a leader, you now get to share in that with me.

Yes, yes. you know, and I mean, you’re all what you don’t just you’re I think some people are born just natural born leaders, right? But then to get to grow in your role and have the opportunity and you know, the sabbatical was just such a is almost like on a shoots and ladders when you can like go up the shoot, right? Like you can completely skip a couple levels and just go up the shoot. Those are those are the shoots that you’ve like put on the game board to allow for like expedited growth.

And not just for me, but for our, you know, for sure for our leadership team and our other team members. So thank you for that.

Well, it’s been fun watching you all grow because it has been and it’s been about a year since we since I announced that you and Kristen were my successors. And so with that being the case, I gave you a lot more responsibility. You have access to the P &L and the balance sheet. You know what’s going on financially in the business. You’re I’m not the one developing the budget anymore. And I was the one doing that for many years. And so

I have offloaded, not given up, but I have offloaded and I’m supervising what’s happening, but I am not the doer of the tasks that I used to be.

Exactly. Exactly. Well, let’s get back to communication. So, you you referenced that it was really important prior to the sabbatical that our clients were well communicated what they’re hearing from you. And I was almost thinking it’s almost it’s almost like parallel to the story of like an interior design business owner having those, you know, that stud senior designer or those stud team members that are going to take

really take the project and I’m letting people know like you’re in good hands. These are my people. I’m in communication with them. We’re going to make sure that your project or your coaching in our case is continuing and that you have access to all the tools and all of the guidance for your business while I’m away. And here is the way that they can get a hold of me. So it wasn’t, it wasn’t just like, Gil’s gone. Like she’s on, she’s on the desert Island and she’s gone for five weeks.

There was a lot of communication, I think, with our team too, of just making sure that everybody, like all bases were covered. But did you, like, let’s talk about communication with the team during the sabbaticals, because you referenced how that was tricky for you, and it was tricky for us too.

Well, and I admit it was a little hard because I didn’t, I was also not wanting to leave you all high and dry. So there was a part of me that was just being the business mom. And, and I admit that I do that. I’m a little bit of a mommer and I can’t help it because I don’t want you all to fail. And it’s not that I think I have to be involved, but I don’t want to not be there if you need me. Right. So.

I just felt like I needed to be there a little bit. part of it was just because I’d never had that experience of taking that complete break. we’ll talk about my latest one in a few minutes. But I would suggest to you that this is a journey because you have to learn how to let go as a leader. And I think I’m pretty decent at delegating.

And I try really hard to just let go and not micromanage because I did that my other business and I promised I would never do it again because it’s just not healthy. And so if you can learn to let go and let people have responsibility and allow them to fail because I, if you’ve got good people on your team, they’re not going to fail. They may not do it the way you would do it. You have to be okay with that. And so,

just understand that this may be a process. And that’s why I think it’s so important for me to continue to take sabbaticals, because each sabbatical is going to help you all feel more confident with me not being there day to day.

Yeah. what I’m hearing you say too, is it really is based on trust, right? Team. and you know, even zooming back to 2020, wasn’t until just this last year in 2024 that I took over the revenue department. So like you were taking a sabbatical when we didn’t have quite as strong of a lead, if you will, in that role. I’m not trying to give myself kudos, but like it has made a really big difference in the last.

Are you interested in your

two years of me taking over and having that really be a focus of my day to day. And so that was big. That was ballsy.

I’m impressed. Okay. So as far as other business owners that are listening, I’m sure they’re just like, my gosh, like, let’s book this about a call right away. Right. They’re probably like, how can I get this plan into my, my calendar right away? Cause it sounds incredible. But what would you, what advice would you give them? I mean, we, touched on the communication piece about stepping away from those client relationships for a period of time.

Well, your clients don’t want to feel that they’re being neglected and that’s really important. having, making sure that you check in with them before you go and making sure that you have touch base with them through the month or six weeks prior to you taking the break and saying, hey, just remember, I’m going to be gone for this period of time. If it’s really urgent, my team can get in touch with me. However, I will be gone during this period of time. And so for me is the,

I leave at five o’clock Friday before Thanksgiving and I come back on the second of January. And so during that period of time, which is about five weeks, I won’t be in touch day to day, but I still want you to do your weekly reports. And I want you to them. I do read them. And for me, it’s just more of if there’s something

reading them.

Good.

I hopped on a few phone calls over sabbatical because there were a couple of very urgent things that came up. I did that and I probably still always do that because I don’t ever want to leave clients in the lurch feel like they don’t have access to me if it’s something that they really need my opinion on. And that there are some really urgent things that come up.

Well, and I think that I look at the communication with a team, I guess since it’s been five years of sabbaticals, I’m still a little blown away that it’s that. I look at it kind of as a dance, right? Like the first time you said that you were in sac-a-lot, we’re like, what are you doing in here? Let’s kick her out. Let’s get her out. You’re supposed to be on break. And we were trying to make it very black and white. And it was almost kind of like that first dance of kind of stepping on each other’s toes a little bit because we’re

We’re all there trying to do it, but we didn’t quite know how to do that dance. And I feel like every year that you’ve taken a sabbatical, that dance has gotten a little bit easier, a little bit more of a flow. And you kind of know what part of the dance floor you’re on and we know what part of the dance floor you’re on. And occasionally one of us goes in the middle and tries to do a little break dance and one of us might react to that. But I think that it has taken time just like in any relationship.

of something new to see it evolve over time. So evolve in the types of projects that you’re working on, evolve in the communication and the prep of the team and what the team is bringing to the table while you’re gone as well. So I know we’ve referenced a lot about the first sabbatical, but it certainly has gotten easier and I guess more interesting as they continue.

And interesting in a good way, like interesting in the kind of problems that we’re solving, making sure that we’re meeting the goals by year end, especially since you’re usually gone by year end of the company and that we’re prepped for when you walk in the door in January to make sure that we’re ready to talk about and make sure that the goals for the new year are ready to go, which it has moved up our planning time a lot, right? So we’re always planning our year.

an entire year in advance. And we usually start that in the first quarter and just starting to look at those dates and all of that. then by, usually it’s by summer when the kids are out for school. It’s usually when we have a pretty dialed in of this is for the most part where we’re going. These are the trips that are taking. Here’s when Gail’s going to be on vacation. Here’s when she’s going to be on sabbatical. And then, and then from there we can back up to all of our different boardroom events and, and

the weekly rhythm and all of that. And so I think that it has it has moved up those decisions a little bit because we also know that going into it’s no longer going into December trying to put together a plan for the next year for our business. We’re usually really proactively having a conversation in third quarter and and in October, November, just for our annual planning session. We set that time aside. So that’s been

That has been interesting and a little hard some years, I think, to move it up so early. But I think overall, it’s been very beneficial to just continuously trying to look further ahead into our business.

Yeah, and I think that’s one of the things that’s the hardest for people who are in more of a task management role versus a vision role. think a year to five years ahead and for all of you, the rest of the team, and it’s not a negative, this is what you have to do just to operate in your daily work, but you’re looking at more of that anywhere from now to maybe.

three to six months and usually not a year or so. And so this is pushing you all to start to see a bigger picture and see a broader framework that’s necessary because we don’t move things on a dime. Some projects take a year, some projects take a year and a half. Some projects are done that have started four years ago. So when we look at how long it takes to get big movements made in the business,

It means that you have to plan farther back so that you get the result when you want it. Right. So that’s what’s so critical about the thinking process that changes for all of you who are on the leadership team during these sabbaticals is you’re starting to understand that I’ve definitely put a lot of thought way in advance so that I’m not ever leaving the business waiting for me to make a decision. I’ve really been doing that prep work ahead of time for you all.

So let’s talk about what you’re doing during the sabbatical. So you mentioned the first year you read the 21 books, it felt like 56. I think I saw 56 in my brain, but it felt like 56. But you read 21 books, you went on some vacation. And so just talk to us a little bit about how you decide and how you go about balancing rest, which tends to be kind of hard for the mold that we all come out of, especially.

interior design business owners, right? Like we are all just wired to like, just keep hitting the pavement and getting it done. but how did you balance rest and personal growth and also your professional development during that time? And it doesn’t necessarily have to be just based on your one, but in the different sabbaticals that you’ve had.

Sure. Well, and I also was writing during that when I was working on my first book. And so I was doing writing and I was doing reading. And then I took naps. I just rested and had a lot of great dinners out and I had time with my husband. And so we had time because he was he’s retired. And so at that point, he’d been retired a couple of years and he keeps asking me when I’m going to retire. He quit asking that actually about two years.

And I said, I don’t know, I just don’t have an answer for that. And you all asked me that too, and I don’t have an answer for it yet. So what I would tell you is that for me, rest is thinking, rest is learning, rest is engaging my brain. I am not a sit around and do nothing kind of person. And I’m always thinking and maybe that’s, I need to do a little less of that occasionally.

You

I really enjoy, I think it’s just the mental challenge of growth because to me growth is an opportunity for me to not, you know, not be just stagnant because being stagnant would be boring to me. I’m thinking about all sorts of things like we’ve started this year talking about AI and, and really starting to implement that in our business.

So.

We need to always be thinking ahead because our job is to be the leaders in the industry. That’s our job. My goal is for us to be thought leaders and also be thinking about what’s next so that we can help our clients succeed and be ahead of the curve too. And so to me, it’s all about if I keep learning and bringing my best effort toward learning, I’m enjoying it. It’s fun for me.

I like to learn. It’s just me.

So did you have any surprising insights or revelations that you’ve gained during your sabbaticals, whether it was about yourself or your business or your life?

would say that it’s not so much a new insight is more as a confirmation that a lot of the things that were in my way were things that were within me. I needed to have some I needed the breaks I needed that I needed to quit that production because you know me I just I’m a machine when it comes to work.

And it’s hard for me to shut it off. And what I realized is I needed a little bit more space because here’s what happens, especially for somebody like me. I’m like wired as an entrepreneur, but I need that creative spark to be there. And the only way for creative spark to be there is for me to break my patterns of constantly being in a thinking problem solving mode. So in order to be

exceptionally creative and be prepared for pivots, which happen every two to three years in your business, you have to be flexible and you have to be ready to come up with new and fresh ideas. You need to look outside the industry and say, what is somebody else doing in farming that could be applied to our business? You know, it’s really looking at what else is working elsewhere.

that we could be applying to our business. And sometimes you just need to take that break so that you can pull back from the business long enough to see a different view, right?

Yeah, and I love the reference of sparking the creativity and really being able to show up and really as a creative to hear you talk about taking a break from problem solving because we, know, a lot of times we have to use our creativity inside of the problem solving and we are working that muscle every single day. So I guess just a little off topic here, but drafting off of that, what, for someone that

is just listening to this and is like, my God, a sabbatical, that sounds amazing. And I have no idea when I can do it. And I’m completely overwhelmed in thinking about it. So what suggestions would you have for our interior design business owners today that they could find those small little breaks of problem solving to smaller moments of sparks of creativity, that they’re not quite there or have a sabbatical on the calendar?

Well, and I’ve encouraged a lot of my clients, my coaching clients to do this is just walk out a weekend where you’re checking into a hotel, you’re going to a spa, you’re doing some things for you physically and spiritually and emotionally that support who you are. Take a break from your family, from your business, from everything. Just go away. Just find a long weekend.

So it’s not like, I’m just shutting down the laptop for the weekend and then I’m still at the soccer game and I’m going to the birthday parties and I’m still making all the dinners. It’s like really just finding a spot for yourself to go and have that moment for a few days.

I have one of my clients that she did that last year and I told her, said, this is an order. This is, this is a, I am telling you, you have to do this. You have to take a long weekend. And I said, go find a spot, go find a place, a hotel that’s beautiful. And so she found one that was close by and she went for the weekend. She said, I could have done that for many more days. And she got massages and she did yoga and she rested and she read a

book and she just relaxed and totally turned her brain off from the day to day of the work. Then I’m sure a little bit of that crept in. always does. But start there. That’s probably the best advice I could give you. And then the second thing I would tell you is I’m huge on time blocking, as you know, and we as a company start with whatever my personal time off is. So when I have sabbatical, when I’m going to take vacation, when I have a fifth week that

That’s a whole other story. when I’m going to take those times off, those are put on the calendar before we even put together our company calendar, which takes us months to work on. And we do it at least six months before the year starts. So we already have the next year is already blocked out by the middle of the year. Yeah. And we already know what’s coming. So.

you

just pick your time, just decide when are you gonna do this and start small, start with a long weekend and then maybe go from there up to two weeks and that two weeks could be with family but if you’re gonna do that, just find a way to make sure that you’re totally resting on this trip and then find a time somewhere down the road and if you’ve been in your business say 10 years or more, your time is now, go do it.

and put it at the end of the year because it’s a natural break for most people to close for about two weeks for Christmas or a week and a half. Just tack on some days there and then you’ve got some time off for Thanksgiving. That’s why I do it right before Thanksgiving till January 2nd because there are enough holidays in there that I’m just gluing some extra days in between that. a lot of our clients are so busy right then, they don’t have a lot of time to do

anything else that I might want them to do. So they’re just trying to close out the year and get ready to take their breaks. So that’s the perfect time to take it and maybe take four weeks the first time.

Yeah, and what I’m hearing you say is even for those small moments to regain the creativity, is finding ways to plan. It goes back to just the basics of like filling your cup first, right? Like you can’t, you can’t give your creativity, your gifts to the world if you’re running on an empty tank. And a lot of moms talk about that when it comes to their kids, you know, whether you are

Yep.

following the miracle morning and you’ve really dialed in what your morning looks like before everyone wakes up and you kind of have had that time to get in the physical exercise, the spiritual piece of it, maybe some reading and some education, maybe some meditation. So those are all things that are small moments within our 24 hour day, but that we can have almost like the idea of like, okay, this is

maybe we have to label it like this is my mini sabbatical, which is an hour and a half for myself every morning. Okay, and then I’m also planning out a three day weekend. mean, even just in this conversation, I’m like, I need to find a, I need to find a three day weekend for myself, I think that I can just get away and kind of regain my creativity for the business. So, okay, well, go ahead.

I was just going to say, we have what we call decision fatigue, and we all have it. And we have the capacity to make X number of decisions a day. Each person is different. And you’re going to lose that capacity by midday. So to me, I’m a morning person anyway. And I wake up early before I don’t use an alarm. just wake up. And so for me, I start my day with with

meditation and then exercise. So I go do Pilates. So for me, I go do that. And I do not look at my emails and my Slack until later in the morning because I want peace of mind and I want quiet and I want my own reflection time. And if I don’t have that time, I can feel it during the day because you need to be ready to start your day and have the capacity to make decisions. But if you’re already getting hit with people,

telling you, I need this or I needed that or this is a problem. First thing of the day, then all of a sudden you’re on edge because everything is, it’s a fire and you’re here.

It makes you reactive, right? As soon as you tune in to the Slack and the email, that’s your first opportunity to be reactive. And then that starts the fire drills and then that starts the overwhelm and it’s just a catalyst. And I think some of us are addicted to it, right? I think that some of us are just so used to it that it’s almost like we crave it when it’s not there, but there’s so much freedom that you can find when you actually are.

exam.

setting some time aside in the morning. And I know like your morning and the amount of time that you can have before like 8 a.m. or 9 a.m. looks very different than the mornings that like I have my kids. So I might be able to get in like an hour to myself before I’m getting people out of bed and making sandwiches and making sure that you know everybody’s where they need to be. But then I also have mornings that I you know I can get a little more rest or get some exercise in before I start my day.

And so that’s been hard for me because it changes. It’s not always like just a set in stone thing, but that’s also just probably a personality flaw for myself. It is a decision.

decision. It’s a decision. Right? it’s really not, we get to choose how we spend our time. And so when we make the decision that we are going to either rest or be productive, that’s a choice, we get to make that choice.

Yeah, I love that. OK, so back to after the sabbatical, Kenaz, we wrap up here. I do want to ask, what changes did you notice in your mindset or your leadership style after you returned from sabbatical?

Well, just, you finally let go and you just say, okay, they’ve been doing it without me for four or five weeks and I think they’re just fine doing it. every single time, and you know this about me anyway, I’ve been doing it for 20 years, but every year I’m giving more responsibility to the members of the team every year. And so each person is going to get more things that they’re going to take on. Like you’re taking on podcasting now.

And it’s not that you weren’t doing it, but I pitched in last year and did it because you were taking on a new role. So I wanted to help. So this year I said, okay, it’s back to you. so and you’re doing it. And the thing is, is that’s what gives you that confidence in knowing that you’re capable of doing anything. So to me, my whole role and as I am

We’re doing

continuing to develop in my role as a leader is my job is to mentor. My job is to teach the team and to provide the opportunities for growth for the team. And I can’t do that if I keep holding on tight. So I have to let go. And every time I come back from Spatical, I’m letting go a little bit more. So every year there’s a new change that comes in the new year because I have taken that break.

I want to talk for a minute about this last sabbatical because it was pretty different than the rest of them. And it was last summer, my husband and I went on vacation and I came back and said to him a couple of days later, I have 10 reasons we should be moving. And poor guy. And he said, okay, what are those? And I gave them to him and he said, you’re absolutely right. Let’s, let’s look for a house. And three days later, we had a contract.

Yes.

So we built a new house last year. Nothing fancy. It’s just a typical ranch house and we built a full basement. And I just told him, I said, you know, we’re at that point in our lives. I really want this to be a house that we enjoy and that is not just plain vanilla. Cause we never painted any of the rooms at all. It all stayed the same builder beige color, which was terrible. Never liked the color.

And I said, I’m not going to do it this time. We’re going to we are going to do this and enjoy this house. So by the time we’ve gotten through the selections and the builders building and all that stuff, I kind of waited until sabbatical to start doing the interior design work. And so I got so immersed in that it was like a full time job just planning out everything so that I had everything scheduled. had the move was in two phases and I had

boxes moved in and then we’d unpack those and then we moved the furniture in and we’re waiting for furniture and now the contractors down the basement building out our basement and we’re getting ready to landscape. So we’ve got all these things. I had to plan all that and I did it in five weeks basically and then I had to get ready to move. during that five week period it was probably the most detached I’ve ever been from the business and I got a creative break in such a way that I got to

struggle with paint colors for my house and rethink it about 10 times and make decisions on furniture and rugs and all those things and really get completely immersed back in that end of the business. And I had no time to do any work. I didn’t do any work for Pearl at all. I just took a complete break from it and worked on the house. And I went into that break knowing that that was going to be essential to do.

And I didn’t even remember how hard that job was.

Yeah, know it’s good. You’re like right back into the coaching with people that are you’ve been on the ground floor with them now again, and I’m sure that was a good muscle to bring back out. So were there some unexpected benefits to our company that resulted from your time away and your sabbaticals?

I think that that’s a good question and I would turn that back to you. What were the benefits to you of me taking that break?

I mean, definitely there was a lot of professional and personal growth, I think, for our team during that time, specifically for me. And I think that Kristen would attest to that as well. I think we’ve also continued to, you always want to have the visionary of your company truly in the visionary role. And if you’re in other roles, that isn’t happening. So it’s allowed us to find creative ways

For lack of a, I mean, it’s not that we don’t want you in things and doing things, but it’s helped us be more resourceful and creative in figuring out solutions that don’t include you. Cause there was a time and a place in our business that if there was a problem or there was an issue, it wasn’t Gail necessarily bringing the answer. was Gail was the answer. Well, we’ll offer Gail’s time. We’ll offer.

Gail to fix this, we’ll offer Gail to look at this PNL. And I think that we’ve really gotten, or we’ll offer an extra call with Gail or whatever. And I think that we really used the muscle more recently on just having other pockets of resources that we’ve developed that it’s not reliant on you.

Well, and the fun part for me is I see the creativity that’s coming. I just had a meeting right before this with talking about our boardroom retreat and I’m not planning that boardroom retreat. I was there to be a part of it just for the content, but it was really great that it was the whole thing has been planned very well by Kimmy and Kristen and Patty and I have, I am there to do my role.

but I’m really getting to play the role of the CEO and owner of the business, which is ideal and fun for me.

Love that. Okay, well, Gail, this has been incredible. I can’t wait for more topics between the two of us, because I know you and I can rip off of just pretty much anything. But what are three action items that you’d like to leave with our listeners today in regards to a sabbatical?

Well, first of all, believe that you can take a break, believe that you need a break and plan the break. And those are the three things, those three things, just get it on your calendar and just do it because you will be so thankful that you took the break. Whatever length of time you take, start small, get bigger and your business will benefit as a result of it.

And it goes back to, this day one or is this one day? Right? So love that. Well, thank you so much for your time.

Well, thank you for having me.

Okay.

Are you feeling disconnected from the wider design industry, or wondering how to find your place within it? Whether you’re a solo designer, studio owner, or team leader, finding your community and knowing your value in the bigger picture of the design world can be a game-changer.

In this episode of the Creative Genius Podcast, host Erin Weir sits down with Jane Dagmi for a conversation about identity, community, and purpose in the interior design industry. Erin first met Jane around the time that Jane was Editor in Chief of Designers Today, and now she is Managing Director of High Point x Design (HPxD), a 501(c)6 nonprofit organization that promotes, unites and builds upon High Point, NC’s unique creative ecosystem.

Jane brings a unique perspective as a writer, storyteller, editor, and industry leader. With a career that has spanned media, editorial leadership, and now her work with WithIt and High Point Market Authority, she shares thoughtful reflections on how the design world is evolving—and how designers can find connection, meaning, and impact in their work.

Throughout the episode, Jane and Erin discuss the power of community in an industry that often feels isolating. Jane shares her passion for fostering supportive networks and why organizations like WithIt play such a critical role in elevating women and providing leadership development in design. “Inclusivity is real important to us,” she says. “HPxD is kind of connecting all of those steps along the way of the ecosystem and promoting it and uniting those people year-round.”

Listen to the full episode to learn:

Jane also reflects on her transition from being a magazine editor to becoming more deeply involved with the trade side of the industry. She talks about learning to trust her instincts and follow the breadcrumbs that led her to roles that truly aligned with her values.

This is a conversation filled with heart, insight, and inspiration—perfect for anyone who’s ever asked, “Where do I fit in?” or “How do I grow while staying true to myself?”

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full show notes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s13e6-shownotes

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Well, Jean, welcome to the Creative Genius podcast. It’s so nice to have you here today.

I’m glad to be with you. Thank you.

Yeah, do you want to just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you are all about?

Okay, so I am presently the managing director of High Point by Design, also known as HPXD. But for many years before that, I was editor in chief of designers today, and that’s really what afforded me to meet a ton of designers. So that’s what I’ve been doing for the last seven years, magazines and now HPXD.

I remember when we first met, were doing designers today and you were an editor. So you have such a fascinating background as an editor, also an artist and a creative. And I’d love to hear about your journey and how it led you to High Point by Design.

Okay, I’m gonna do the very abbreviated journey and I’m happy to have a glass of wine with anybody that wants to go deeper. But like many people that we hang out with, I was a room rearranger early on, so I had the bug to make my environment feel better, feel fresh and new. And I did that in a tiny room with three pieces of furniture a lot.

I didn’t ever really thought about interior design until after I graduated from college and I did study interior design at Parsons. I went back after I got my BA. So I got my associate’s degree at Parsons and I did a job here or there, but I never really became a design assistant or worked in a firm. I did try. I did try. It was a recession in New York in the early nineties and I only got one interview and that kind of scared me.

But magazines also held a fascination for me because I really discovered a love of writing. And so I found that loving to write and tell stories and loving to decorate was the perfect combination for the magazine world. And I got my foot in the door at Country Living Magazine. So that was really my first industry experience, my first time going to High Point. I loved my job at Country Living. I traveled so much.

met so many people photographing homes around the country with great photographers. And that lasted for 13 years. then I had a kind of yucky time for a while. I was living in Florida and I’d say I was not making the most of who I was. But I think sometimes we all kind of have those years where we hide a little bit. And then came back out and in 2018,

I knew there was a, or 2017, there was an opening at Designers Today. And I found this out through some of my editor friends. And I thought, you know what, I really want to get back in print. And I was very persistent and I got the job and it was awesome. I loved my four years at Designers Today. And then, you know, the pandemic came and this little…

thing called High Point by Design was forming and they were looking for somebody to lead it. And I just, it’s like, my God, just said, you have to do this. And now that was 2022. So I’m three years into it.

It’s crazy how fast time passes by, right? Because I remember, gosh, if you were just starting with designers today in 2017, I think we had maybe met just maybe a year or two prior to that.

Yeah, probably when I was at Steel Yard, we probably met and would have conversations at Las Vegas Market.

Yep. then fast forward to today. It feels like you’ve been doing high point by design for a while now, which three years is a while, but you know, also blazes by so quickly. So, well, so from editorial desk to leading a design movement, let’s talk a little bit about your creative skills or your philosophies that you’ve that have kind of stuck with you throughout your career.

Well, I’ll tell you one thing that I didn’t mention, but it really has helped me in everything that I do. I worked in a PR firm for a while when I got out of school and I was the administrative assistant to one of the principals and PR just really afforded me the opportunity to learn how to create win-wins and to collaborate. And I love marketing and I love branding. So there was that, which was just sort of the beginning of understanding.

What those worlds were so i really look at my peer world is like being a great jumping off point for everything that i did afterwards it help me so much in the magazine world and now you know as we create events and things that htxt. Just being mindful of other people’s needs and follow up and all that good all those good skills that you learn working in a corporate environment so it was really really good and then in terms of.

creative skills. I know that a lot of people see me as an artist and yes, I am creative and I have done things in public that are arty. And I think I just have that kind of arty hippie vibe. But I think it’s the way that my mind works. It’s the way that my mind connects the dots. We’re all unique in that way. And then I just,

want to be out there talking to people. So one person’s idea, my idea, like it just builds. So I think it’s being open and I really think that where I excel is just the way that my mind is wired. It’s, you know, it’s mine.

And I love that about you. think that, you know, I certainly have an attraction to creatives and artistic and even that kind of hippie vibe people as well, where it’s just like, this is how we think and it’s how we do and it’s how we live. And that is something that’s very special that I’m learning not everybody thinks and lives that way.

You know, I’m attracted to art. I mean, I see it everywhere. You know, I see beauty, I see possibility and leaves on the, you know, on the sidewalk. It’s just, and I think that, yeah, I think a lot of people that we surround ourselves with also their minds just sort of wandering and create. When you’re creative, you’re just like, it’s just what you do. You’re just compelled to, know, whether it’s a painting or an event or, yeah, just brainstorming.

So let’s talk about a little bit about what inspires you outside of work. And how does that actually feed back to some of the things that you’re building here with Highpoint by Design?

You know, I was like, outside of work. Do I have an outside of work? I mean, I am so guilty of blending the two. And it goes back to like, kind of what I said about creativity, because I just can’t let an opportunity go that I think I can use in my livelihood.

From the very beginning, when I started in magazines, I discovered that the people that I was interviewing were so fantastic. I wanted them to be my friends and they were. So, you know, I’d spend a couple of days photographing somebody’s home. And then I’d end up seeing them when I, you know, casually went to that same town and we’ve just built relationships like that. So, you know, I just I’m very good at mixing business and pleasure.

and I could teach a class in that. But like we went to the Netherlands on a trip. So, you know, going to Europe, it was amazing. We went with John Muldoon from Cohab Space, organized a trip. It was myself and my boyfriend, Frank. It was Cyril Jefferson, who is now the mayor of High Point and his wife, Raven, who is very active in the High Point school system.

And it was two gallery owners from Asheville, Michael and Hannah, can’t think of their last name at the minute, but they own Blue Spiral Gallery, who are now very active in High Point. And this is just an example. John organized this trip. He wanted us to go and see a city that was built around design and a design academy. And, you know, when we think about High Point and High Point by design, we have this legacy of manufacturing, plus we have the market.

And so, you know, just to sort of see other cities that take design very seriously. And it was an incredible trip where I got all the inspiration that I normally get on just a fun trip. But, you know, it’s I have this bank of knowledge and images that I can now apply into what I do at HPXD.

What an incredible opportunity. I mean, just some of the people that you named, I know as well. And what a great crew of creatives to just go and learn. And what a great way to come together and like, you know, kind of build on your creativity together for what you’re creating for High Point and High Point by Design.

Definitely, because now, mean, Cyril is our mayor, you know, and our city, and I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but our city has pretty much declared that they want to be a world-class design destination.

I didn’t know that.

And our destination, it’s in our strategic plan. And so they’re very serious about expanding that whole creativity, you know, beyond what everybody knows us for, which is market. And there’s very good reason why they know us for market. mean, it’s the most successful event produced in North Carolina, you know.

incredible when I tell people that I go to High Point or North Carolina twice a year they’re like why on earth are you going there and then I start explaining and they’re like yes this is it seems like this is a really big deal for you and it’s a big deal for our entire industry actually

Yeah, so anyway, it’s fun. It’s fun. Design applies to so much that I think any trip, any fun thing, you know, can easily go on to the be also counted or attributed to what I do for my livelihood. So.

Love that. Well, let’s dive into High Point by Design and I want to better understand what it is and, you know, it’s a vision and how it functions. So can you walk us through what High Point by Design is and how it all started? I think maybe at like a teak table back in 2020.

Yes, legend has it. Well, yes, I think that’s on our website. So, well, I remember I was at Brown Truck Brewery when we got the email that market would be postponed for the April 2020. And there are a whole bunch of people that live in High Point that own, that are the heads of brands or that own manufacturing facilities and showrooms. So,

You know we were alarmed what are we going to do because once preserve our employees you know and ourselves and we’ve said everybody sitting on real estate and then of course designers became busier than ever so we wanted to open for them. But that’s a conversation about high point opening up year round that’s been happening for a very long time there have been lots of iterations of the same. Why are why are we.

you know, why can’t we be open more than two weeks out of the year? Right. So this was the newest iteration of that. And it’s stuck the longest because I just think the time is right for it. Finally. But it’s our motto is design never goes dark. And that really says it so well. It’s just High Point is a town of creative resources. It’s an ecosystem from the raw materials.

to the finished product, to photography of the finished product. Like everything happens here. And HPXD is kind of connecting all of those steps along the way of the ecosystem and promoting it and uniting those people year round because the market authority is so strong at promoting market, you know? And of course they care about Highpoint, you know, throughout the year and they have interaction, but like there’s no body that really just

cares for the everyday design scene here and a city that’s sort of built on design. So that’s pretty much our role. I mean, we’re just looking at what naturally happens here every day, packaging it through our lens of design, and then promoting people, hopefully bringing designers to experience what it’s like to shop, to source, to visit with vendors year round and do events.

We’re just, that’s what we do. We support High Point year round. know, market’s just as important for us as well.

Right. Well, and I think that that’s so important to just finally kind of be, it sounds like it’s just kind of this golden thread that you’re just pulling through all of the different things that are happening in High Point, especially the markets and just making it this kind of day to day like flip ring design back to the daily and High Point.

Yeah, I love what you said, golden thread. mean, I, I, and I know I’m not everybody, but I leave market going, I can’t believe I didn’t see this, this and that. Right. Or I know people that say, you know what, I can’t come this market, you know, I’ve got a soccer thing or whatever. Or they just, you know, and there’s so many, there are reasons why people cannot make it to those, you know, five, seven days where you can shop and see the showrooms at their best.

So do we want to penalize them because they couldn’t come? You know, they can still come and they can still experience the showrooms. mean, a lot of showrooms stay intact for a while. Not not everybody does. They can bring their clients, which is really fun. had this past year I had two designers. It’s funny, designers went their first time coming outside of the market. They kind of they’re a little bit lost. You know, they don’t know what’s open and that’s understandable. So.

I asked them, you know, let’s connect. I asked them about their project and sort of the vibe, the style. I say, look at our member list and tell me, you know, just are you working with any of them or if, and if you’re not, there brands on that list that you want to experience, you know, that you want to get to know? So we start there and then to see how far we get. And then, you know, there’s a ton of companies that aren’t our official partners, but I still have relationships.

And I want that designer, if that designer is investing and coming here, and especially if they’re bringing a client, I want that designer to have the best time ever in High Point so that she is like, I want to do this again, you know, and it’s I’m like, you can have your cake and eat it too. We’re, you know, like it’s just a different shopping experience here without, you know, throngs of others doing it with you.

And sometimes I’m like, have high point all to yourself. And that might scare some people, know? For others, it’s a luxury. But you have presidents of brands, creative directors of brands that work here every day. And you can really deepen those relationships. And anyway, I’ve had great experiences helping designers with their itineraries when they come here in January or July.

Right. Well, one thing that I hear from a lot of designers is that when it comes to high point, because we’re always asking designers that they’re going to high point, mean, to not only for the better buying and opening up accounts and the relationship building, but also just to have a little fun and really get their kind of creative juices flowing again. But a lot of designers that are they never quite cross the finish line to getting to high point market is because they’re like Aaron, it feels like one designer explained it.

Like I’m invited to a wedding and I’ve got the tux and I’ve got the gift but I don’t have the date. Or I’ve got the date and I’ve got the tux but I don’t have my hotel room. Like they always feel like they just don’t quite have everything in their toolkit to go and know what to do and how to get there. And then of course once you go, then you get it figured out and you know, and it’s repeatable and you look forward to it.

I do feel like High Point Market does a really good job of kind of trying to prep people for their first time at market. But I also think coming, you know, if you get overwhelmed easily or, you know, maybe you just, you’re not a crowd person, you know, and you don’t know the lay of the land, come, I mean, come for a few days. Like I’ll show you how to get around. I’ll point out places that you’ll want to go back to. just kind of, it’s, you know, it’s like a dress rehearsal in a way.

But we just want people to know that we’re open. Highpoint’s accessible.

Yeah, do you have a lot of designers that reach out to you throughout the year, kind of looking for that guidance?

I wouldn’t say a lot, yes, a lot yet, you know, to come for sure. it’s like, you know, one designer comes, they tell their friend and, you know, we still have a lot of amplification of our message. know, I three years into it, sure, a lot of people know us, but a lot of people have never even heard of us. But hopefully when they,

You know if they do come to market they see our flags out and they can kind of start asking like what are these flags are you know.

Now, I’ve been referencing this as high point by design, but do you prefer HP XD?

I like them all and I even crack up when people like totally get it wrong. I mean, I’m like, I wish I had a blooper reel for, know, HPDX, HPD. I mean, it’s, you know, I don’t care. It’s like, just call us, right? Just be recognized. Yeah.

Okay, well, let’s talk a little bit about what makes High Point by Design a unique experience for interior designers compared to other trade shows or design.

I think one of the experiences that is different is that we are very client friendly. when I, I don’t know if know Sharon Sherman, but she was here in July and I enjoy Sharon. And so she brought her client for a couple of days and they were on a mission and I followed them around and took pictures. And now Sharon’s there in American leather, spreading out her plans everywhere. And they’re, you know,

They’re testing out the furniture and we went to hooker and I mean, we were like the only people there. You know, it was just like we were just we had to show him, like I said, all to ourselves. And and then Sharon relayed this to me. Her client went back to New York or New Jersey and told a friend of where she had just been, you know, and the friend was like, I want to go like I want to do that. You know, so.

I think there’s something there and I know, you know, we understand designers wanting to protect their resources, but they’re, you know, we’re not saying open up everything, have, you know, every door open to consumers, but there is a way to do it where clients can come and learn a little bit and kind of feel like their designers are the coolest people on earth.

Hey!

because they have access to this and one of the women that I used to work with who used to work at iCold said to me, let’s do a bring your client to work day event, know, but to bring your client to work event, which I would still love to do. So that’s one big difference is there’s no, you know, you don’t have to register. I mean, there’s no gate, you know, there’s no gatekeepers when you come here to High Point any time of the year.

Nobody’s scanning your badge. You can just walk in places. So that’s another difference. We’re just a city, a city of design, and there’s plenty of parking, of course. And just another day in paradise.

You don’t have to necessarily plan your day based on the rain and that you’re going to be in IHSC for the day.

No, no, you can park, you can have an umbrella, can, yeah, it’s just, it’s easy, you know, no set dates to, it’s when you’re available, so.

So what are some of the core values or guiding principles behind High Point by Design as a movement and a platform?

Well, we did a strategic plan exercise last year, which was good. So we, you know, we worked on those values and one is inclusivity. So we really want everybody to feel like they can come to High Point and experience a bit of it, whether they make it to market or not, you know, but just experience the city and the design. We also, that works also for our community, which

So we operate on two levels, Erin. We have a 501c6 nonprofit, which is a membership organization. And that’s where like our list of showrooms, those are our members. And then we have a 501c3 foundation that’s just kind of getting off the ground. But the efforts there are really to make pathways from our community into the industry to show, you know, middle and high schoolers, like what this, how great.

This industry has all the different facets about it. So we want the community to proud in that we have this market here and how it really impacts the world. So inclusivity is real important to us. And then learning. most of the, you know, I do a ton of events. So just getting that education is really important and being a vehicle for that. And again, that works both ways. That works in the designer realm and it works in our community.

So in fact, we’re involved in at market. We have some classes coming on the last day. We have marketing, interior design and entrepreneur students that are coming and we’re working with with it and hypermarket authority and some of some showrooms to greet them and teach them a little bit about the industry. Yeah, so it’s good. And creativity is a big value of ours.

It’s exciting.

Yeah, and that’s just kind of obvious. It’s, you know, who’s part of our organization, what we want to thrive and yeah, so those are three of our key values.

Okay, well let’s talk a little bit more about specifically interior designers and how to engage with high point by design. So I’m sure that we’ve got some interior design business owners that are listening that have never experienced high point by design. And so what can they expect and how can they get involved?

Well, they can always reach out to me. So I’m just going to say, you know, I am a point person. So if you’re thinking about coming to High Point, you want to know like, you want to kind of just have a more personal discovery. I’m a great first point person. But what can they expect? mean, it’s quiet. It’s really quiet.

It is a good idea when you come here outside of the market to call ahead. know, we have people’s numbers and people have their reps that they work with, but to call ahead and make sure that the places that you definitely want to go to are open because even, you know, with our members, we have like a dozen that are open every day. But, you know,

It’s not like they have teams there every day. And if somebody has to go to the dentist or their parent, you know, they might, so it’s always good to just call ahead and say, you know, I’m thinking of coming to High Point this week and I really love to see your rugs or whatever it is. Let’s make a date. So we encourage that. We are looking at some kind of designer membership with HPXT because we get asked a lot. I want to join.

And so those are conversations that we’re having with our board right now. What is that? What would be the perks? And it’s interesting. We have a designer on our board and he’s like, yeah, I would totally join. For me to be a member and have access to what’s happening right there and be able to bring clients to these showrooms, that’s a big deal. For his clients, that’s impressive.

We’re looking into a designer membership, Love this. Stay tuned.

I’m all about more access for interior designers at the heart of where it’s all happening.

Well, you’d be great to brainstorm then a little bit, think about this just because of course, what I learned in PR, you you got to create these win-wins. Like I do not want to pull the wool over anybody’s eyes. I want people to wholeheartedly want to engage because it’s bringing them joy. It’s good for their business. And yeah, so yeah, I’m like, I was thinking that like I am just

I don’t want to sell anything that I don’t believe in.

Amen to that. Amen to that. That’s big one when it comes to the, you know, your integrity and your authenticity and how you show up and in business as well. And I think that that always goes a long way as a value in business. So, okay. So are there opportunities for designers to host events or collaborate with showrooms or build their brand through Highpoint by Design? So I know you mentioned the idea of this membership.

for sure.

but what’s currently at their fingertips?

That’s so interesting. love that question because like, yeah.

I mean

I tell our brand partners, I’m like, you can think of things too. You like you all have ideas, you put on a ton of panels at market, know, just, you know, who’s something we’ve had business coaches like asking, you know, could I do something in high point? Of course you can. mean, we’ve got, we’ve got showrooms, we’ve got, you know, conference rooms for rent or for free. We’ve got,

You know we can help you with those arrangements we did last last summer erica sorrette creative she. What’s coming you spend time between france and high point and so we work together frequently but i said why don’t you do like. What are your marketing schools live you know and high point and she’s like i’m gonna love it she just ran with it and created this great.

two day event, which then we kind of peppered in like showroom visits and after hours. it was just like, and it was about 30 of us, which was a beautiful size group. And there was a lot of good networking. And you know, like, so there’s just there’s plenty of room and space and hotel rooms. When you’re there. Even, you know, Pandora’s Manor, which

off market time.

You know, there’s six rooms at Pandora’s Manor, but we’ve had lots of guests stay there. we did. I have to tell you this because this was also awesome. So we have two sales a year and we decided that that just makes sense. Our, you know, most showrooms have samples that they want to get rid of. They have returned product in the warehouse that they want to get rid of because they’re bringing new things in for market. So we have sales in February and in August. And before the August sale this year,

Do know Kelly and Joanne from CanDrak and Cole? They had never been here. They had never been to High Point outside of the market. And they’re like, we want to do it. Brave women. loved it. I love their desire to come. So they gathered like eight to 10 women that they’ve just accumulated over the years, like trusted kind of friends. And they booked themselves at Pandora’s Manor.

Mm-hmm.

My friend Jessica came, Amy Fleury came from Athens. had a couple locals, Jill Seal from Charlotte. And we hung out at Pandora’s Manor. And we had like a whole day of sort of, you know, just everybody got to bring up something in their business or personal life that they would like their colleagues, their friends to weigh in on. And so, you know, that was just designers creating something.

You know before the sale so you they also got to do that but it was like so really anything is possible. mean we have great resources. It’s not Palm Springs. We don’t have you know we don’t have desert. We don’t have a beach. You know it’s not the Hamptons but it’s high point.

It’s high point and there’s incredibly creative people and great business people there. So, gosh, to think about going to Pandora’s manner and getting to stay there, during an off market time when you’re not, you know, just getting to stay there in general sounds exciting to me, but to go in almost like a retreat feel where you can just kind of cozy in and enjoy all the elements of in Pandora’s manner, plus, some, some girlfriend time and some business.

grow up, run time is some.

Yeah, it was very retreat-like and yeah, it was so much fun. So yeah, there’s lots of different opportunities.

So tell me a little bit more about how High Point by Design helps designers deepen their product knowledge and their industry relationships or their client offerings. So I know you’ve kind of touched a little bit on the client offerings of like, I’m a designer that can bring you in during an off-market time and have this incredible experience. But tell me a little bit more on that product knowledge and industry relationship piece.

Sure. Well, I think what you’ll find in High Point and, you know, Southern hospitality is sort of woven into the brand of High Point, but you can get behind the scenes very easily here. if you whether you’re working with brands, you know, there’s tons of upholstery that is, you know, created just five, 10 minutes from the main hub of of market. So.

whether you’re working with brands or thinking about it and you want to go see what their operations are like, that is totally open to you. Again, you just have to make an appointment, you know, and I’m happy to introduce you to who you need to know. So that’s, there are a lot of young design associates trying to sell luxury in their design firms that have never seen a quality sofa being made. it would behoove design teams to like,

bring their teams outside of market, you know, when it’s affordable to not just be the two principles that come. Bring your team, you know, we’ll create a nice little behind the scenes, some nice surprises, you know, for you. But let them learn so that they know what it, you know, what goes into selling quality furniture and the making of it. So that’s, think, a really great benefit. And, you know, I’m, yeah.

I think that’s a really great benefit. And then of course, the people that are there, you’ll get the ear of the president, the vice president, the creative director, the marketing. mean, it depends where you go. Varelin is made here, Lancaster is made here. Everybody’s here. They might be off on a business trip, somebody, but basically everybody’s here. And they appreciate the visits and they appreciate the interest and they’re gonna let you know that.

Well, and understanding that difference in quality and, you know, want to say the customer service that comes along with that quality. Yeah, there might be a higher price point like you’re not just going to go buy it off the shelf, you know, the next to every other sofa that’s out there. understanding that quality and can pets be on it as a, you know, is it kid friendly? Is it, you know, is it going to stand the test of time?

I think is really important and to understand the different parts of the upholstery. Making rain the makers and how they think about it when we’ve gone through a few different factory tours of our designers and it’s been incredible to talk about the nail heads and talk about some of these like very I guess for lack of a better term like old like ways of doing these things that are.

are not out there on every type of piece of furniture.

For sure not. mean, watching somebody tough to sofa, forget about it, you know? And so it’s just, yeah, it’s, there’s really, it’s great to go behind the scenes and see how it’s made. Yeah.

incredible.

Okay, well, let’s talk a little bit about some of the stories. I’m sure you’ve got some great stories from your community at High Point Design. So you must have witnessed some inspiring collaborations or personal breakthroughs in this past three years with High Point Bright Design. Can you share one or two standout stories?

Well, there have been some definite, some high moments where, you know, it’s just like, wow, we actually did that. I would say one thing that I didn’t mention at all is we have universities coming. So design students, furniture design. And the first time I hosted a university, was SCAD Atlanta. They wanted to come. Well, I had many discussions. Should we come at market? Should we not come at market?

And I said, if you want to come at market, I’m not sure how you can get all the rooms for your people unless you, you know, come Tuesday or whatever. And then you could, you could go around Tuesday, Wednesday, but if you want to show them how things are made and if you want to, for people to have some time with them, you might want to consider coming another time. Well, they came the weekend after market. So it was late October and they came right before Halloween.

So I begged many of our members to bear with me and please host these students. So it was two and a half days. And it was amazing. They rolled in on a Sunday and they rolled onto Wren Street. And so we had Lancaster and Oley were both open. Cause remember, you know, we’re kind of jaded. We were in showrooms all the time, but most of these students

I mean, maybe they’ve been to market before, but they haven’t been to showrooms like we’ve been to showrooms. So it’s still very new. And of course, everything was very fresh because it was just market. And there’s an artist in town, Sabrina Tillman. And because it was Halloween, we had like an icebreaker activity. We went there and I had bought all these half masks and we got fabric samples and trim samples. And the students made these amazing masks.

It was just the coolest thing. And then we had dinner at Red Egg. Carol set up tables on her lawn. let me tell you, we get scrappy, we get it done. But like I was cooking, we ordered Italian food, but I had to make gluten free pasta. You know, you have to ask everybody about their diet. Making gluten free pasta Sunday afternoon. It wasn’t very good. But but anyway, that was like our first day. And then, you know, a whole other day of just like

to see that these days.

in the showrooms, in the veneer companies here, in the resin makers. Like we just, we show them so many different places in different showrooms. And the last night, this was so fun. We went to Cohab space. at that time, because Cohab is always changing, but they had four street facing windows and we did a visual merchandising contest. So we divvied up the students in four groups.

They had all this sort of stuff in a room and they could and the windows were empty and they had an hour and like 15 minutes to do their windows and then tell us about them. And we had a jury, of course. And I mean, that was just like, Erin, that was so great. It was the first big school event, multi-day. And I tell you, it went like it went off so well. So that was a real high point. And then, I mean, the first Vacation Rental Design Summit, you know, that’s a big deal for us.

What year was that?

Okay.

Like, I felt so good about what we had just done, that our little team created this incredible event that people loved. And it was the talk of market. mean, people were like, I heard from everybody that they heard such great things. So that was, that was a big deal. That was a big deal.

Well, I I got I did get to experience the very first one, but I went last year and it was it was I walked in. I’m like, oh my gosh, like, what is this? This is amazing. And, you know, I’m still in contact with some of the people that I met at that event, which

Yeah, yeah, like Robin de la Cruz.

yes, I actually talked to him last week. We got all caught up on the puppy and business and all of the things.

Yeah, he’s awesome. I mean, we created some incredible friendships like he and his design besties pals that met at the summit.

They’re doing amazing things.

So they’re doing something, they’re doing a project here in High Point. So we’re excited about that. yeah, so this 2024 was great and now we’re gearing up for 2025. So, and it’s going to be different because we’re not doing it at market.

Tell me a little bit about this.

Yeah, so we decided with HPXD and our mission to use and celebrate High Point year round, we just thought we have enough credibility. Let’s take the summit to the summer when we can really have more time, more focus, go behind the scenes if we choose and just treat it like a summer escape to High Point. Still with the.

Education that people rely on for us, you know, and we’re getting really serious and we had such a good meeting today about just the kind of level of education, but with more a little bit more time. We have three days really devoted to active learning and experiences. We just feel like we can some of the sessions that we’ve had in the past. I wish we had another half hour for so we’re going to really give people time to explain, give people time to ask questions and then mix that with.

just some good fun, which we’re working on the itinerary and partnerships right now. So. Love that.

We’ll definitely have to catch up on that after this. But going back to what you were sharing about the design schools coming in and really having, know, experiencing a high point in the makers and the way that you did. I mean, I would have just given anything for that when I was in design school. I we have a lot of great teachers and a lot of great classes, but there are a couple of things that they didn’t really teach us. We didn’t have that firsthand experience and we didn’t also have the actual business of design.

Which you know obviously is where Pearl Collective comes in and we have a lot of designers that come to us going, okay, I need a little bit more guidance and help with this piece of it when I’m starting to grow and scale my business. But gosh, I would give anything for that if I was back in design school back in those days.

Definitely. Yeah, I think it’s really important if we can help provide that and, you know, even when schools come to introduce them to working designers and have, you know, a panel. Like we did the ASID student chapter, like the local Carolina student chapter, we’ll do a day with them usually in January or February. And last year I said, I try and give them value. yes, we can go to so many showrooms and this and that, but I also want to just

let them see how the real world works. And sometimes I think we’re focused so much on like the presidents of firms at a certain level, but I was like, you know what, these are like mostly kids and people that will go into those first jobs. Let’s talk to the design assistants and associates because, right? Like, what are you doing? You know, how did you get your job? And, tell me something exciting about what you get to do. you know, I just,

I want to meet people where they are, of course give them, you know, aspirational hopes and everything, but also just really introduce them to people like them that are in the positions that they’ll probably be in. So.

That is so powerful, I think, to just meet people where they’re at and, you know, especially at these kids that are fresh out of school or they’re in school, just being able to see like, my gosh, like I could be that or, you know, what steps do I need to take to get there? And of course, some of them might have the goal of owning a company or being the president or the CEO of a company at some point in time, but we all have to start somewhere. So that’s excellent. OK, well, I know that you talked about

kind of one of your passes of like that was such a huge impact was after your first vacation, Ronald summit. But what’s one memory from early high point by design days that still gives you chills and makes you smile?

Hmm. gosh. I’m feeling the pressure, It’s been a lot of work, let me tell you. I mean, the first day that I joined this organization, I was at Design Edge in Seattle. I didn’t even really know what I was doing. And I guess we were slated to be there sort of with high point market.

and I was just like, go. Right. Yeah, I felt a little bit like a fish out of water, even though I’ve been in this industry forever, you know, I just. Right. It was a new thing, so I don’t know if that gave me the chills or that was like scary chills, but.

So,

Yeah, this is real. I have the High Point by Design badge on and I’m here and this is how I’m representing and every, you probably knew most of the people that were there besides the designers.

But Seattle, it’s interesting. mean, they’re in one of the great things about design edge is, know, Lee takes the show to places where there’s a lot of designers and there’s quite a few that have never been to High Point. So, you know, Washington State, it’s far away. It’s a big commitment for those designers to come to High Point. And so, you know, I knew a couple, but there were so many there that I didn’t.

No, at all, and that didn’t know me either. You know, it’s funny when you go to certain shows, know, people know you and then you go to other places and like nobody knows you and you feel like, knows me, wah. But yeah, that can play with your ego a bit. Yeah, I don’t know. I just, think I’d have to look through my phone pictures and see, but I just, I still.

kind of think the first getting through that first summit and I mean that was a year into it for me. But I think that was just my my first real feeling of like wow you know like this was powerful and just the friendships that it what it took to to pull that off was yeah gives me the chills just thinking about it.

So back to design edge, was just a design edge, Scott Stale, it was incredible Lee and his crew always do such a great job. you know, I kind of explain design edge is like market on the road. So you’ve got high point by design that’s keeping market open year round, essentially.

point open. We do want to distinguish because like we, know, like on steroids, right? It’s the showrooms on steroids. We’re like, we like to say like unplugged, without your makeup. Yeah, you know, kind of like, that’s how it is. As you are like, do you don’t have to, you know, plan your wardrobe, you know, just come.

point open.

Come on in.

And then you’ve got design edge is kind of market on the road and then you’ve got high point market authority that is just like you said, it’s just that steroids like a couple of weeks a year that like everything is at your fingertips. And you do plan a few more outfits and a few more pairs of shoes during that as well. Well, do you mind if I share what I think one of the defining moments that gives me chills? Okay, well.

would love to hear it.

You and I stay in contact throughout the year. Sometimes it’s a text message. Once in a while it’s a phone call or getting to meet in person or working on an event together. And I remember just seeing the excitement in your eyes when you were just lighting up talking about your office. You actually landed. And not that you were flying around before, but you had a home base. You figured out where that home base was going to be. You had an office and then you were

in the search of the perfect desk and how to and how you wanted to design it and decorate it. And I just saw you light up because it was like getting it was almost like you you got to scrapbook your whole design world into this space that was going to inspire you to keep this whole high point by design kind of thriving and going beyond what you’ve already done.

Yeah, well, I mean, having it having an office, having an office on the street, not just working on my home, even though I’m talking to you from my home today, but that that has that was pretty monumental for us. And we have a we have a really good relationship with our visitors bureau visit high point and, you know, where we think we’re aligned like, you know, I love the term design tourism, whether that is design business tourism.

for designers, design tourism, for design enthusiasts that want to learn more, want to rub elbows with designers, want to just take it in at a higher level than they take in perhaps on watching HGTV on airplanes, but something a little more real and meaty, and design tourism for students. So I think, of course, our visitors bureau wants heads in beds. They want people to come here and have a great time, so they come back and they tell their friends. And we’re the same thing.

doing, you we just stay in our lane of design. But yeah, so I get to work in their offices and I got to furnish it, you know, with a mix of vintage and from some of our members, some of my favorite things. And I love having that and people can come and see me.

Yeah, I know I’m gonna have to come see the finished product and what you’re.

It is a container. It is a container. And I don’t have a window, it’s, you know, that’s what it is.

I’ll have to stop by sometime. Okay, well, let’s talk a little bit. I know you touched on the vacation rental summit and it’s coming up this summer. What can attendees expect this year? Do you have anything that you can share with us that gives us a couple little morsels to get excited about?

Well, when we have a recent call, know, Jessica Deuce, is there are three co-founders of the summit, myself, Jessica Deuce and Erica Sort. And so Jessica is the designer. And she said, you know, I can tell you from last year’s summit to this year’s summit. I have changed my business so much like the times are changing.

rapidly. The industry is faced with a lot of challenges. And so there’s a lot new information to take in. And so we’re going to have some people that have never spoken at the summit before. Obviously, mean, bringing new speakers in is always a good thing. And we’ll have returning people as well. I don’t have I wish I had more details for you. And by the time, you know,

It’s very soon we will, but it’s just gonna be, I mean, you know, we’ll have some yoga in the mornings. Love that. I’m trying to pull together a little pickleball event. So it’s learning, but it’s also fun. It’s a summer, you know? So we want people to see a different side of High Point. And if I get my way, one of our showroom partners will have a sound healing. Ooh!

I mean, is there a better way to discover the comfort of furniture than to lay on it for more than a minute during a trade show? this is great. No, lay on it for 20 minutes and sleep in it. And think of the photo opportunity for that brand. I mean, to have, you know, 50 designers sacked out in their showroom with singing roles. You know.

Yes.

is great. I got to spend some time with her when I was in Scottsdale. So again, another way that we all just get to come together multiple times throughout the year. So

One of the best things that’s happened to me over the last few years and definitely since Highpoint by Design is that Jessica is in my life as is Erica in my life. mean, when you do an event like the summit, you really get close and they’re both really inspiring. yeah, as I get older, I’m like, am I gonna really get more friends? I do.

The ones that you’re attracting with the vibration and the intelligence and the gifts that you’re bringing to the world, they’re the ones that are wanting more of that and they’re wanting to help accelerate that as well. So it’s fun to see women, friends coming together in business, but especially I love seeing really strong business women coming together and doing incredible things.

Me too. Me too. I want more of that in High Point. I want more of that. Just, know, when we can actually have the time to chill and hang out and hang out more. Yes.

That would be very nice. Okay, so you have, I think you’ve touched on this a little bit, but you’ve been leading the charge to make High Point a true city of design year round. And so, and you’ve talked about your strategic vision for that. What’s that vision look like in action? I’m sure that you’ve kind of got a little bit of a stair step approach or overlaying circles when it comes to that strategy, but kind of what’s next for what that looks like in action.

So I am one piece of the puzzle. I mean, I am boots on the ground, designer relationships. That’s kind of my strength and education as a lore to bring people here. But I cannot do this alone. This is a city-wide strategy and initiative. And that’s why I’m so happy that the city’s actually…

is talking about it and actually, I mean, we’ve had brainstorming sessions, like this is really happening. But what I want to say is that to me, so when you’re at market, you see this beautiful, sparkling town with the lights on, there’s this beautiful amber glow. Once the lights go down, you can look into showroom windows and see things, you know, it’s like, it’s like,

New York’s fashion windows, but it’s our design windows. And when you all go home, the lights go off. So the city is very dark. A lot of people will cover their windows. So for me, yeah. So for me, one of the hallmark of success will be when companies that have street facing.

showrooms, the majority will understand, please keep your lights on, make this look like a city that knows it’s, I was going to say a work that, you know, that is really committed to design. Like we are a design city. We don’t have to hide in between, you know, like let’s show people. So to me, that’s something that would be like incredible is that we are really moving together to change the city.

Well, and it goes right back to your design never goes dark theme, right?

Yeah, true. mean, literally, yes, it does. And then, of course, I’m sure you’ve noticed, you know, and again, this is this is it’s bigger than it’s so much bigger than HBXD. The Red Lion or former Radisson Hotel in the middle of town, you know, nobody’s staying there. It’s just a big empty building. There are some there is some movement with Showplace West, which is the the one that Nobles used to be in with the little Lou. You know, there’s some movement there.

But until some of these, until the downtown is a little bit more activated and there’s more life, it’s a challenge. But that’s why you have these designers, these situations, they one by one, I’ll take you one by one, come in and have that experience, whether it’s you and a client, whether it’s you alone, whether it’s you and your team, we’ll do some, you

education in between and that’s just that’s what I do. That’s and then hopefully others you know do their part too and then we can all celebrate together.

Well, I think they absolutely have the right person charged with the boots on the ground because you’re doing an incredible job with that. And how do you see other local businesses and creatives getting involved as kind of this activation has been happening?

It’s funny today. like there’s a paint. There’s a guy that bought a paint company. He was a bio bio engineer and he decided he wanted to be a little bit more of an entrepreneur and he bought a paint contracting company. So I met with him and I told him I dropped a little something and he’s like, I would love to get involved with that. like, you know, it’s a more on the philanthropy foundational side. And so

I think that people want to belong to something and HP XD gives those people in the community, especially if they have something to do with the design or making a home or making, you know, the built environment like a network, a network to, we know we do things, we have like mixers and things year round. So the community likes to likes to get involved.

So yeah, that’s one way. And we’ve done sip installs where the showrooms are open on a weekend. And there’s Prosecco and some refreshments. And there’s a little map. And they can go and sample some of the showrooms that are open to all. So we’ve done that in terms of just sampling a little bit about what the design scene is like here.

Excellent. Well, it’s fun to see how it’s getting activated. And so, you know, my next question is going to be the future. Where do you see High Point and High Point by Design in five years as a design destination and your strategy and your vision coming to life?

Now, I think there will be some key events that happen here. North Carolina has a very big concentration of mid-century modern architecture. There’s modernism events around the country, notably Palm Springs used to be one in Sarasota.

That’s like that or something similar to that could happen. There could be an antique. We’ve got great antiques. You know, there could be something I’m actually working on something around that for 26. But, you know, like it could start with antiques and there could be, you know, combination of art, design and music and food. So I think, you know, collaborating with other organizations in the city to bring about.

more like a festival atmosphere. I would love to, when I was in high school, I went to a model United Nations in Boston. I would love to have a model market and bring students, but not just one school at a time. I would like to bring a lot of schools at a time and have a real model market where there are speakers and like it’s like market.

It’s like sort of

market, of course, but it’s really like, you know, students, maybe I don’t know if it’s for high schoolers. I don’t know if it’s college. I don’t know. But I think could we do a model, you know, a model market and students, you know, networking with other students, too. So those are some things that I think would be fun to have in the future. But again, you know, working interdisciplinary with other organizations and

Yeah

Just yeah, these bigger collaborations. We do have like a 10 year dream, is to have a design academy of sorts. And that is something that we’re not alone in thinking that High Point should have some kind of focused school. You know, here, David Blair with ISFD is also very much interested in that, what that looks like. So we’ve got a couple of people that are, you what could that look like? So we’re just,

Right now, that’s just entertaining an idea, but why not? I mean, it makes sense. So those are some things.

I love how you are kind of this incubator of ideas that, you know, it’s not that just, you know, we’ve got to focus on the now and we can’t focus on the future. It seems like you do a very good job of kind of bringing in ideas and letting them set and then going and working on them and into what they can become. And sometimes I’m sure you get started on an idea and it’s almost like fuel to the fire too of making something come across the finish line a little more quickly than maybe what you thought.

For sure, for sure. mean, you know, there’s a lot of ideas and some of them will end up in the dead ideas pile. But yeah, I mean, I’m excited. I’m really excited for the future of High Point and the people that, you know, I get to do this with that really care. I mean, there’s a lot of passion here.

Well, this is an incredible industry and high point. It’s like I call it, you know, high point market almost like I’m coming home for homecoming. And so I would love to be there more often throughout the year, just as your vision has been painted.

You’ve never been here outside of the market.

I have actually. I’ve come, I guess, three different times for the Home Furnishing Hall of Fame Leadership Institute. And it was a great time and I got to see parts of High Point that I hadn’t seen before, specifically High Point University and the Khan Hotel. And man, that is an incredible campus. And so I got to see all of that and meet a lot of people that live and breathe High Point on a daily basis, but kind of in a different way.

Yeah, but say you have you have been to high point. Not not just at market.

Yeah, it definitely is different, you know, and it’s, you’re right, it’s not as lit up. And maybe I’m just so used to having like my schedule full of events and commitments and people and dinners and champagne and all of that when I come. But that was a really special experience to be able to be a part of that and see Highpoint in a different way and learn so much more about my industry.

I have friends that will be forever friends from that experience because I got to know more people in the industry and about these different manufacturing companies and retailers. It was very informative.

Yeah, that’s cool. That’s a great program. Yeah.

Okay, well, as we finish up here, we love to always ask our podcasters to share three ideas that you’d like to share with our listeners today. And those can be ideas that they can take back to their business, to their life. And so what would those three things be for you today, Jane?

Yeah, I was thinking about this and I want to be like, I want to say something good. so whenever I head up an activity and there’s a bus, I always tell people, please sit next to somebody different on the bus. Don’t sit next to somebody who you see every day at work. And that can be applied in different ways, but just sit next to somebody new.

I also believe that real life is so much more interesting than fiction. And I feel like in so many interviews that I’ve had, just, I’m like, I could never make that stuff up. And I say that because, you know, in the, in the PR world, the pitching your story, the, are people gonna, what are gonna people gonna, you know, buy? It’s not always the hero move. It’s sometimes there’s just so much beauty in the mundane. And I just think people should think about that.

Sometimes just the way you are living your life is just simple and beautiful and there’s a story there and you don’t have to tell it, but it might be very noteworthy. So that’s something else. And then more to HVXD, reframe High Point as a year-round resource. We offer more than you might know. And so just think about reframing it.

Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Jane, for being on and I look forward to seeing you very soon and hopefully at your vacation rental summit.

I hope you can come to it and thank you so much for having me on. hope that your listeners take something from this and I hope it makes them smile.

Well, I know I certainly have and it’s always a pleasure to spend time with you.

Awesome. Thank you.

What’s the secret to transforming a chaotic design project into a streamlined, stress-free experience for everyone involved? If you’ve ever struggled with managing client expectations, juggling trades, or keeping projects on schedule and on budget, this episode is packed with practical wisdom you won’t want to miss.

In this conversation, Erin Weir sits down with Kimberly Graff, Chief Operations Officer of Charbonneau Interiors to talk about the systems, tools, and mindset shifts that have helped her take control of her projects and create better outcomes for her clients and for herself. Kimberly opens up about her journey of learning how critical project management is to the design process, sharing lessons learned from difficult experiences and the changes she’s made to avoid those pitfalls in the future.

In this episode, you’ll learn about the essential role of clear communication and documentation in keeping projects on track. Kimberly shares how she now uses a dedicated project management software to handle everything from schedules to budgets to client communication, saying, “If it’s not written down, it didn’t happen.” Erin and Kimberly also discuss the importance of onboarding processes, client education, and setting boundaries from the very beginning of a project.

You’ll also hear about:

Whether you’re a solo designer wearing all the hats or part of a larger firm, this episode is a must-listen for anyone ready to bring more structure, clarity, and professionalism to their projects.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full show notes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s13e5-shownotes

Mentioned in this Episode

Kimberly mentioned a number of software applications that she uses at Charbonneau Interiors:

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Well, welcome to the Creative Genius podcast, Kimberly. I’m so excited to have you here today.

Thank you for having me.

I’m going to go ahead and just let you introduce yourself. I know that we’ve been friends for a long time. You were one of our OG boardroom members back in the day. But please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do.

I am the COO at Charbonneau Interiors and on a daily basis my hands are involved in just all sorts of areas of the business. So I mean from human resources to finance to sales to even

connecting with the clients and giving them updates and sharing installation information with my team and chatting with vendors and subcontractors. So a little bit of everything.

A track of all trades. And I also want to mention that, you know, there’s a lot of different design companies that they aren’t quite sure how like remote work can work for an interior design company. And your company, Charbonneau Interiors is in Texas and you actually live in Louisiana. That’s how that works for you guys.

Craig, yeah.

So I think that the desire to want to make it work is most important. and I have a great connection. I’m always a text message away, a call away. All of our clients know that I’m in Louisiana running things. But I have a great support team on the ground in Texas.

quite a large team there to support the clients. And I’m there to guide the team members through the day-to-day operations just via Zoom, via text message, via call. So it works. Before Zoom, we would FaceTime all the time.

Awesome. Well, I’m glad that that has worked out so well for you and you do go to Texas.

Yes, I go to Texas several times a year just when the business demands and also to get a chance to connect with the clients in person.

Love that. Love that. Okay. So you talked about a little bit about what you do on a daily basis as COO. And how does project management play into those responsibilities? Because that’s kind of where I want to dive into today is talking about project management.

Absolutely. Well, like I said, on a daily basis, I’m connecting with our clients, our team, subcontractors, vendors, builders, and potential clients. I am the first point of contact for the potential clients that are going to be working with our firm. And I do actually work closely with them, not all of them, but some of them throughout the design process. A large

Part of our portfolio is repeat clients. So I do have strong established relationships with many of them. And I’m connecting with them several times a day on various things that we’re working on for them. So keeping them informed of changes, updates, even discussing dreams that they might have for areas that maybe we’re not working on just yet.

And then spending a lot of time on the phone with my team, helping them to troubleshoot, to navigate solutions, to different roadblocks that we might be having, and then working on a great deal of planning. And also heavily depending on my accounting support team to help me with researching reports so that way I can help manage cash flow for the company.

So, yeah.

extremely important piece of it. Okay, so Charbonneau Interiors is known for its signature Charbonneau Care approach. So how does this philosophy influence your project management style? And tell us a little bit about what Charbonneau Care means.

So our tagline is actually connecting who you are to how you live. And what that means is really taking into consideration how the client lives their life and making sure that we are doing our best to meet them where they are. But as far as Charbonneau Care,

I think that oftentimes in renovation projects and new construction, even small-scale design projects, there gets to be a level of fatigue with many of the clients and just letting them know that we’re there for them to guide them through the process as well as understand that there will likely be some rocky parts along the way, but letting them know that they’re

that we are there to navigate the best solution. And we couldn’t do that without the team’s support. And so to help manage keeping tabs on how the team is feeling, the management team actually conducts regular team check-ins so that we can make sure that we are keeping tabs on not maxing out the team.

So just making sure that the team is healthy so that way they can truly be the backbone and the support system that the clients need.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, let’s talk a little bit about the fundamentals of project management for running an interior design business, right? Gosh, think that in our industry, there’s so, or just an industry of rock stars, there’s so many details and specifications and problem solving that has to happen. And I think so many people on the outside that may be

hiring an interior designer have no idea how much work goes into making sure that a project really looks and feels the way it needs to feel. So what are some of the key elements of an effective project management system that you see for an interior design business?

I would say it would have to have a collaborative function or feature. It would have to have some planning elements. It also must include some type of mapping that acts as kind of a guide to help you stay on track if you lose kind of where you are in the process along the way. It should be detailed, organized, and support its unique users.

I don’t necessarily believe that there’s a one size fits all system for every single business. I think that every design business member performs similar tasks to support and carry out design projects, but not necessarily in the same order or in the same way. So I think that using different applications and software so it feels that it’s supporting.

the project management system within that specific organization and giving direction to its users in terms of where to head next.

Okay, love that. So what tools or software do you use to keep projects on track and how do they help you improve efficiency? Because I know that you are, you have that known for the efficiency that comes out with your team.

So many, so many species of software. We use Asana Harvest. I recently added Forecast to Harvest. QuickBooks, Slack, Goolsheets, and Bamboo.

Okay. Okay. So, can you talk to me a little bit about Asana and why that is your project management software of choice?

Yes, Asana is the grand central station of everything that we do. Everything starts there. It’s the software that essentially gives that direction. It gives that guide. It maps out the stages in the process. So that way our entire team knows what comes next. We take advantage of custom fields as well as the automations that Asana offers.

And it really kind of, yeah, gives the guide for the team so that they know where to go next.

Love that. And then how do you help your team balance their creative vision with all the logistics?

my gosh. This is such a funny question to me. Because it’s a painful reality. I don’t think that there’s a true balance. think that it’s a give and a take. I think that with some projects, you can definitely be more structured and kind of follow the plan to a T. And there’s other

projects that have to be more fluid. think that being realistic, that you create a plan on the front end and knowing that you need to give lots of room to the creative side, you know, whatever the lead designer needs to truly come up with the vision and then come back in with that kind of more structured plan. So that way we’re making sure that we are

producing those deliverables for clients.

And what challenges do you see inside of an interior design business when it comes to project management? Like, I know that you’re always helping your team navigate those challenges, but what are some of the key project management challenges that maybe we’re all dealing with, but we don’t necessarily slow down enough to go, it’s these three categories or it’s these four items or it’s these 40 items.

I don’t know that the challenges that we experience in project management is separate or in a specific category that’s separate from what all designers face as far as the industry. feel like back orders is an issue for project management. Just continued items are an issue for project management. Coordinating subcontractors, when you don’t have a general contractor. Shipping.

And how we navigate them is to clearly communicate and keeping the client informed with the right amount of information so that they So we can internally manage a solution for them And when I say right amount of information what I mean is is that these clients have hired us as a professional company to take on a lot of the headache from those things and so internally we are

dealing with the back orders and the discontinued by informing them of the extended timeframe that might be, you know, have come up as well as alternates, making sure that we’re presenting the news, but letting them know that these are the new choices. And with coordinate some contractors, that one is a bit of a sticky situation, but also having.

multiple relationships with different types of trades people so maybe you can navigate different solutions. And then with shipping, it’s just making sure that we are staying on top of giving client regular statuses of updates on reporting essentially so that way they know where things are at in the process.

Okay, and that kind of already answers my next question that I had, which it sounds like that is how you’re ensuring both your team and your clients feel supported throughout the project.

Yeah, I mean, I also think that formal focus meetings for those client projects and formal meetings with the clients as well and then updating them on Slack because we actually use Slack to communicate with our clients as well.

Okay, tell me a little bit more about that because that’s not what every design business does. So we use Slack in our business and we have our boardroom members set up in their own workspace and they’re chattering away about interior design business all day long. Love it. And that’s a great place for me to be able to go and say, hey guys, we’ve got a webinar coming up or we need you to book for our room or I’ve got a marketing idea for you. But not every…

That works out well for us because they’re in their own workspace. So how are you using Slack for your clients where it’s, you’re not saying something that maybe you’d be saying to Nancy in front of your clients. So it’s not speaking badly about them. It’s just like, know I work really hard and fast with my team and I’m pretty direct and I would never want like you to read like a direct comment about your project.

that didn’t have like a little extra like air and like warmth to do it, right?

Of course, it’s essentially exactly the way that you manage it is how we manage it in a separate workspace. When we first started to use Slack with our clients, we thought that we could have one single workspace. That worked for about six weeks and quickly realized that…

You can be in each other going, I don’t have my drapes in, like what’s going on with you?

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I felt like anxious on edge that I was having to manage and.

make sure that the correct external language was being used, rather than like you’re saying that fast and quick language that you would use internally with your team. Making sure that the team is being eloquent. So setting up that separate workspace is basically how we do it. And yeah.

So each just to review inside of Slack, there are workspaces. So you’ve got Charbonneau Interiors as a workspace and then you might have the Smith residence as another workspace. So we have.

No, so we have Charbonneau Interiors, which is our internal communications workspace. And then we have what we call a client correspondence workspace. And then each of those clients have a dedicated room channel. And all of those room channels are locked. So that way only the users that are, you know, the client as well as the support team who is in there, let’s say pod, even though we don’t necessarily have pods in our firm, are

part of that channel and then actually once we move into construction if the contractor will is willing we will actually create a construction channel and add the contractor there as well.

That’s great. Well, even in our business, we, it’s the fastest, easiest way to get ahold of us. Yes. I’m not in the box all day long. And I can guarantee you that I’m not as, as quick at responding to emails as I am to a Slack. And so, you know, people that we’re working with every single day, like our marketing strategist and PR person, she’s in multiple channels inside of our, when we were working.

when we work on our website, we have a connection with our web developer and our web designer because it’s just easier to keep technology and AirEd and everybody all together. So I think it’s really helpful to be able to add in a contractor and the other key players in the project. It’s just one point, there’s no longer like, and then I’ll also go copy this person on an email. It’s just, this is where, or a text message, this is where we’re gonna communicate.

Yes, yes, completely takes the like did did you get that information to the contractor? Did you see my approval out of? You know, it answers the question that might be sitting in the client’s mind.

and kind of gives them reassurance that it’s being taken care of. I also love the fact that the entire support team is there to support the lead designer. So that way, if a question needs to be answered and that lead designer is in a meeting, the team can step in and answer and say, hey, you your designer is, you know, busy right now. However, we’re working on getting you a solution. We’ll be right back to you.

that. Okay, so let’s get back to client expectations and managing those client expectations and our project. Everybody’s all time favorite thing that is so important. mean, it sounds like you really have this nailed because it sounds like a lot of your business comes from past clients and keeping the relationships up with past clients, which means you’ve created a great experience for them when they work.

That would be the goal. So what are some of the strategies that you use to manage those client expectations and keep them engaged through the design process?

I would say providing a timeline very early on after they sign a contract.

You mean like, are you giving them all of their upcoming meeting dates as well?

Yes, so during the welcome call, what we do is that we have a detailed timeline that can be, you know, sometimes as long as two years in advance. And they’re basically seeing that we are creating a very detailed plan for them as far as what we’re going to be working on in any given week, as well as highlighting the potential meeting dates that we would like to coordinate with them in the beginning.

So that welcome call is very much a coordination time of schedules and travels and things like that, as well as going over what the team might be working on to develop their project through installation.

Okay, and let’s talk about when things don’t go as planned. Great. So could you maybe share a time or a project, an example of a project that didn’t go as planned and how you handled that? What kind of lessons maybe that you learned from that?

I don’t think that I can name one specific example. I feel like the biggest lesson that I learn over and over again with handling projects is that you have to be flexible. There is all good intentions in the beginning of every single project and I definitely let the potential clients know that this is subject to change. It will change throughout the process.

and that depending on how quick you’re making decisions, how quickly you’re falling in love with just different designs that we’re showing you, how many more options do you want to see? And all of those factors are going to be a evolution in terms of how.

how strict we can be to stay to the timeline that we map out in the beginning, but that to expect that it will be edited and updated along the way. So I think flexibility, flexibility is the biggest lesson.

Well, and I think also the expectation setting of like, here is what this is going to look like. And then we, it might move around a little bit, but we’re all on the same page of what, where we’re starting. We’ve got a map that we’re all starting on. This is the most we can walk through together. love that. Right. You talked about Slack as one of your tools that you use for communication. how do you foster strong communication and collaboration among your team members?

So we have what’s called the designated potato catcher in our organization. Yes. And so essentially what that means is that there’s a person, there’s a responsibility, you know who is responsible for that given task, and then you have a assigned backup person that you know that you can go to. So it creates almost like a partnership.

amongst the team so that they know that, you if they’re going to be out, if they’re overloaded, trying to support another facet of the business or something like that, they can go to their designated potato catcher that will support them and kind of step right in. So I feel like that creates collaboration in our organization.

Well, and there’s really no better name for that. Really. I we talk about all the time when girls like don’t is I think she goes between skunks and socks, but like, don’t take this skunk back on the plate or don’t take the socks back on when you’ve like handed it off. Right. but it goes to like that, that doesn’t the designated potato catcher. It’s like, like I know who my person is. And it’s like, we’re not trying to search out who’s available or.

who has the inspiration to help. It’s just like, this is my other gig. I gotta go get this done. Love it. Love it. Well, let’s talk about efficiency and scaling the business. You are, I know when we first met and you and Nancy were going through our boardroom program and our VIP experience.

You have such a great outlook on like using your business acumen, but also like with some fire beneath it. You know that black and white of like, we’re going to get this done. We’re going to get this shit done. We’re going to make it happen. And you know, sometimes it’s I know I’ve heard Nancy go Kimberly tells me that it’s gotta do this and I gotta do it this way, you know, and it’s almost like those.

the bumpers, right? That come up when we’re taking our kiddos, bullying, and we’re just trying to keep them on the right path. And I think that there’s ways that you’ve really figured out how to use your God given talents to use that inefficiency and scale in your business. So with that introduction, that grand introduction, what processes or systems have you implemented at Charbonneau Interiors to improve efficiencies and profitability?

I think using custom fields in Asana and taking advantage of automations that Asana allows. Without those two things, I think that every other platform that we use essentially gets automatically generated from using Asana and the custom fields. And it takes the, crap, I forgot that one thing out of the process.

So could you give us an example of a custom field and an automation that go hand in hand together of what that might look like?

So we use Asana for our new leads process. And so anytime a potential client inquires to work with our company, you fill out the form on sharpeninventures.com on the contact form. And that contact form is essentially connected to a new leads project in Asana. And immediately I am assigned seven tasks.

And it reminds me like, okay, Kimberly, like you have this new person who is interested in working with your company. These are the seven things that you’re gonna start with. And depending on the custom field, qualification status, essentially, that I have kind of notated in there, depending on which one is then selected triggers additional tasks to be completed.

depending on how they’re then routed. it’s very precise based off of the qualification status. So as far as like me verbally explaining the mapping, might be a little confusing.

But you’re the one that is saying this is a green light, this is qualified, this is a yellow light, this is more information. Correct. Yes. This is definitely not an ideal fit. And let’s refer them out. OK. Did you set that up on your own or did you guys have someone, like an expert, Anasana, help you with that?

Yes, we’re going to.

Absolutely, yes.

So we actually have a person on our team, her name is Tracy, and she helps us with all things Asana, essentially. Yeah, she first actually came to our company and about three years ago she was put on a mission to learn more about the Asana platform and that’s basically her whole job.

is to make sure that we are using Asana in a way that is efficient for the interior design business and creating automations and new custom fields and writing rules on a regular basis that support our processes in our organization. So, yeah.

What a gift, mean, and you found a human being that likes to do that.

Yes, I know. That’s amazing too. I know. But I do it.

a unicorn there in your internal Asana area. I that. Okay, so how have you or how do you handle multiple projects at once without sacrificing quality or client experience? And so I know you talked a little bit about making sure that your team is healthy and happy and not overloaded and you got the potato catchers, but are there some other ways that you kind of help your team handle those?

multiple projects at once.

think try our best to stagger the projects as best as we can. And then also to try and take on a diverse range of types of projects. So not just exclusively focusing on whole home design or new construction or yeah, like having some maybe smaller scale projects. So then that way,

You can actually serve a larger amount of people, but then also not have such burnout as far as being able to really celebrate the win at the end of the project with those kind of smaller projects that take a lesser amount of time. So you can actually see them come to life. So that way the team is getting highs.

off of what they do professionally. So I would say that trying to stagger and trying to keep our portfolio diverse.

Love that. Okay, so what advice would you give an interior designer who is looking to scale their business while maintaining a high level of service?

I think notating the functions that only you can do and basically freeing up your time so that way you can zero in and focus on the money generating functions.

Mm-hmm.

So, see ya.

like we help people do every day too in their businesses, know, kind of breaking apart the business and figuring out how to get you truly in that owner’s seat so that you can scale and do the working on the business instead of in the business. Yeah, that’s great. Well, let’s talk about the future of project management and interior design. It sounds so serious. It’s a big deal.

Yeah.

So what’s one piece of advice that you would give to interior design business owners who struggle with project management?

invest in a system that will support you in the process so you’re not reinventing the wheel every time you’re moving through the design process. feel like interior design projects

are, they’re difficult enough. Every client wants and expects a one of a kind design, a unique design. And I feel like the process and the procedures should not have to follow that.

Yeah, I think that that’s a good point. And it’s not necessarily like a one size fits all, but it’s not always having to reinvent the wheel, right? Every time we run into a new cog in the wheel or a new problem that the systems that you have dialed in are set and they’re working and they’re working and then you can keep adding to those.

Yes

I know even, again, I know we’ve talked a lot about Asana. There’s a lot of different types of project management tools that are out there. But I mean, I’m always a big fan of as people come through our VIP experience, know, asking them if they’re using Asana. I mean, there are some incredible spreadsheets that some of these interior design businesses are using. And I’m all for a good spreadsheet. And even inside of our business, we have really solid spreadsheets that we use for different things, but also

It’s really not a project that’s happening unless it’s over in Asana. Like Asana makes it real, right? Like that, and we know this is officially a marketing project. This is officially a client facing operations project. This is something that the coaches are working on. We know that that is, it’s real when it goes over there because then it has deadlines and it has tasks and it has an outcome that we’re really seeking for the business.

Yes, yes I agree. I mean that is why I truly believe that having that new leads project in our Asana workspace works beautifully because you go from essentially a new lead in Asana and then I decide okay now are you going to become an active client and then once you’re an active client are you now going to go into what we call our

project parting process. So you’re moving through the entire lifespan of the project in Asana, but in different projects within Asana, if that makes sense. So yeah, I mean, I can’t agree with you more. I mean, we also have Google Sheets that we must use to support our design process. Our finished schedules are in there, our timelines.

are in there. Meeting schedule lists are in Google Sheets, but all of those are also linked back to Asana. So that way everybody knows, okay, this is where you go get that information.

Yeah. Love that. Well, you are just incredible and I’m always eager to pick your brain on so many different levels. We have a whole other side of things that we talk about when it comes to the moon and the stars and the universe and why we’re all on this planet together. But I just really appreciate your time and sharing a little glimpse of how your brain and how your energy works on

the organization and operations of your business because I think that any small little moment that we can take a morsel and go, I could have my leads be coming into Asana into one place that is all together that I could go back and look at the archives of those leads. I can look at past clients that I want to try to bring back to the surface. It’s even just a small morsel like that and having it all in one spot is so

hopeful for our listeners. So what are three different takeaways or ideas that you’d like to share with our listeners today that they could take back to their business in their.

I think finding a way to be joyful with your clients in whatever you do. think that working in interior design, I feel blessed to provide amazing furniture, rocks, drapery that helps improve our clients home environment. And it’s a gift when you can match.

the client’s happiness and energy and ride that jolt of excitement with them. I also think that it’s important to surround yourself with a team that shares a similar passion and are motivated towards a common goal. And if you can find a group of humans that want to journey with you,

Love that!

to take care of them because in a sense, your work community, your work team are your chosen family. And I think the last thing is as best as you can to try and define the roles within your team because then everyone knows who’s accountable for what.

Excellent. Yeah, accountability is something I think that we all have. It’s a muscle that we’re always needing to continue to work on. when you can define whether it’s that you’re the designated potato catcher or you are, you know, you’re the lead designer on the project, that’s very important. So, Kimberly, thank you so much for your time today and sharing your expertise in the COO role of Marlboro Interiors.

Well, thank you so much, Erin, for having me. I enjoyed chatting with you and sharing.

What does luxury truly mean in today’s interior design industry? Is it about exclusivity, opulence, or expert craftsmanship? And more importantly, how can designers position their brand to attract high-end clients in an ever-evolving market? The definition of luxury has changed dramatically over the years, and in this episode, we explore how designers can use marketing to stand out in the luxury space.

Erin Weir sits down with Daniela Pimentel Furtado, founder and CEO of Findable Digital Marketing, to discuss the nuances of luxury marketing for interior designers. Daniela’s expertise in SEO and digital marketing for design and construction firms has given her a front-row seat to the changing trends in how affluent clients find and select designers. She shares actionable insights on defining luxury, optimizing your online presence, and attracting the right clients.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s13e4-shownotes

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Creative Genius podcast. Daniella, we’re so excited to have you here today. Why don’t we get started and you can just tell a little bit about yourself.

Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, my name is Daniella. I own a marketing agency called Findable Digital Marketing, and that’s exactly what we do. We help businesses in the design and construction space become easy to find online. So I spend a lot of my time consulting clients, running an agency, but also speaking and writing about these topics.

Well, I love that. And today we’re going to talk about understanding luxury in the modern market. And so how has the definition of luxury, I put that in quotes, right? Luxury changed over time and what values matter most to today’s affluent client.

Yeah. So when I first thought about luxury marketing, it was when I first started the agency back in 2020, a lot of clients were telling me that they are luxury and they’re, they want that to be clear all over the website. But I, something I found interesting is that everyone defines or showcases luxury differently for one client. It was about, creativity for another client. was about quality and skill.

Hmm.

And for another, was about service and that white glove service, like taking care of all the bits and pieces of the project for you. Right. So luxury, the definition of luxury today is so different for everyone. And I think that’s because it’s changed so much over the years. It used to be that luxury was reserved for aristocrats. It was something that a very, very small

of the population could afford. And during the Industrial Revolution, wealth has been distributed. There’s a growing middle class, or the middle class was growing, and just about anyone could be able to afford the things that only the rich could afford before. And so with that growing middle class, the definition of luxury changed. And that’s how I think we have this spectrum.

of luxury or what I call flavors of luxury today.

I love that. I mean, even just reference in it, referencing it as flavors is like even helpful to better understand it. Right. So, so why I guess let’s dig in a little bit more into the why luxury is so hard to define and how does that impact how design firms interior design firms market themselves?

Yeah. Well, if, if luxury is difficult to define, if there has so many different interpretations, then that means that what you think luxury is may not be the same as what the rest of your team think it is or what your clients think it is. And so when we think about marketing, using the right words is important, right? So that you’re attracting the right kind of people, to you does luxury mean

opulence and glamour and you know, shiny. Does it mean a specific aesthetic? Like Victoria, we work with one interior designer that designs Victorian spaces. And it’s very specific aesthetic and that today is difficult to design because it’s difficult to get those materials and custom made objects, right? Or is luxury the best quality, premium, high skilled. So it’s important to

define a little bit more what luxury means so that you’re being clear that you’re attracting the right kind of people and the people on your team also understand and can sell and be on the same page as like you.

I love that. So let’s talk about the flavors of luxury that you referenced and why is that important for interior designers to identify their own flavors of luxury?

Yeah. So, when I was, there was, there was actually a conversation that was pretty pivotal for me. we have this one client, she’s a marketing director of a furniture brand. Actually, it’s an, it’s a parent company that has five sister brands. So she manages all five of them and some of them are more luxury than others. So she was quite attuned to these different flavors of the nuances of luxury. And I remember in one of her calls, she said,

our director of business developments or sales told us that we are marketing ourselves as a premium brand, not as luxury. And so in our call today, Daniella, I want to like look at the website with a different set of eyes and figure that out. And I humbly said that what’s the difference? What’s the difference between premium and luxury?

And she, her shoulders are out, she’s like, I’m so glad you asked because I don’t know either.

Great place to start,

A great place to start. So we have all these different words, right? And it’s hard to define. It’s so nuanced. But for that company was important to distinguish the difference because they had these different sister, like different brands with them, their umbrella that had different price points, and there was a difference in quality. And they wanted that to come through through the brand, through the marketing. So with that client, we

figured out what we did was quite a bit of a journey, but we looked at all the different kinds of words, keywords that people use online when looking for luxury. We looked at tools like Google Trends to see what people were searching on Google and what was the volume like. And then Google and Google Trends is a software. It’s free. Anyone can use it. It also clumps together.

words that are similar enough that are typically searched together or one after the other. And using that we created our own kind of dictionary or kind of guidelines. And this is not it’s not concrete. It’s not like I’m saying I’m not trying to preach this that everyone has to use this. But it’s I think it’s a good jumping off point to help you reflect and ask yourself like what

You know, I use this word all the time luxury, but does what does it really mean for me? And am I really walking the talk in all areas of my business? I have a luxury price tag, but am I being in my demonstrating that I’m luxury through my services, through my website, through the way I talk about my services, my sales calls, you know, from every from the beginning to the end. So we came up with four flavors and there these are the flavors. The first is

So any word that suggests premium, the best expert, go to award winning. So anything that suggests that you are the best at blink. The second flavor of premium is lavish, opulence, glamour. It’s about abundance, having as much as you’d like as much as possible. The third revolves around aesthetic.

So it could be, like I mentioned before, Victorian, could be Bohemian, could be modern, it could be minimalist, whatever it is, it’s something curated specifically for you. And the fourth flavor of luxury is exclusive. This is custom, right? Made only for you, one of a kind. There’s nothing like this that exists in the world. This was made specifically and only for you.

kind of similar with the aesthetic, but you get the gist of it.

fascinating. It’s really has me thinking about like, what would my initial definition of luxury be? And, you know, I’m working on copy and marketing materials to interior design business owners all the time. And, you know, I use those words, I use luxury, I use exclusive, I use premium. But it’s really helpful to think about your definitions behind those and the use of them.

So people can better understand what we do. That’s great.

And most importantly, take that definition and then look at your entire business through that lens and ask yourself, you know, and be very honest. Am I really walking the talk? Are we really doing what we’re saying?

really authentically being the version of luxury that you intend to be. That’s great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about marketing to luxury clients online, right? We’re all online these days using AI and social media and all sorts of different types of apps to make our lives easier. But many interior designers I find believe that affluent clients aren’t online.

And so why is that a misconception and what does the data that you have actually say about that?

Yeah, I hear that often as well people ask are, are my clients really online? They have a lot of money. They’re very busy. And the data suggests that they are that consumer behavior is changing. And there are so many different data sources that suggest this. One example, very, very basic one, going back to the software I mentioned before, Google Trends.

Go on Google Trends and you can see how many more people are searching for interior designers or luxury interior design or anything related to like, you know, premium services or professional services. And you could see that there is a huge increase in 2017 versus today. There are about 19,000 people every single month searching for that keyword.

specifically luxury interior designer in in the US alone and if you were to add The city that they’re in it would get more specific. Wow, that’s just right now. I searched that up this morning Other sources other research studies show that about 70 % of luxury online purchases for luxury goods Take place online. There’s at least one interaction online

That doesn’t mean that just because you’re luxury, you’re impulsive, that you purchase right away. Online is not synonymous with impulsive. Luxury consumers still take their time. They need a high degree of trust to make a purchase, especially as a service, right? Something that they can’t touch, they can’t wear, they can’t feel. So they do go online, but that doesn’t mean that they start and end the entire process online. It doesn’t mean that they…

are gonna hire you just after one Google search or one social media post or one webinar or one email newsletter. It just means that as they’re choosing to make a decision whether to hire you or not, throughout that entire sales cycle, there are quite a few interactions that happen online. What the data also suggests, there’s a journal by the management of marketing that put out a really, really thorough research study.

they interviewed seven people that are considered ultra high net worth and they interviewed them about their shopping behaviors. And again, they found that these consumers do go online before purchasing a luxury product or service. And oftentimes though, they’re using anonymous accounts. And so we often forget that it could be that your target clients or your existing clients

are watching you online, but you don’t know about it because they’re not liking they’re not commenting, but they are watching what you’re doing. So yes, absolutely people are online. But you know, you’re not selling tacos and t shirts. So your sales cycle and your marketing journey is not going to look the same to other businesses because of the price tag and because the high degree of trust required.

Right, that makes a lot of sense. So they’re watching, but they’re not necessarily taking action. And as marketers, we’re always wanting people to take action, right? For our services and to show us like that they’re raising their hand and saying, hey, like I’m interested in you. Like, let’s have a conversation. Let me download something. Let me opt in for something. So that’s really interesting.

One other thing I’d like to mention is that there are also, know, typically the bigger the number, the more, not always, but typically there are multiple stakeholders involved or multiple touch points, right? So it could be that the person that found you online and booked the call with you is not the same person that’s gonna sign the check. And that’s important to remember. So when you’re thinking about is my target customer online,

you know, if you’re thinking about the person that’s signing the check, maybe no, maybe they’re not the one Googling you, but maybe their assistant is and it was their assistant that was required to like, you know, short lists, top five interior designers to speak to you know what I mean?

That’s a really good point. mean, I know that we’ve experienced that in some of our sales calls as well, where someone on the team, they know the need, they’ve had the assignment to find a business coach, and then that’s not necessarily the person that’s going to make the decision, but is part of that initial call. So I think that that happens across the board with all businesses for sure.

Okay, so some of the misconceptions that you’ve talked about with marketing the luxury clients online, how would you suggest to interior designers that they can rethink their approach in marketing the luxury clients online?

Yeah, I think not to sound like a broken record. Well, or maybe let me take it a step further. We talked about, you know, doing some soul searching and reflection, thinking about what does luxury mean to you, try to come up with a definition of it. And then I’d say this to really do like an audit on your entire marketing presence, everything from the website to your social media channels.

or maybe simply just doing a Google search and seeing what comes up. Could be your Google Maps listing or like a house listing that you created years ago. Completely forgot about, but it’s showing up.

reviews.

you don’t have enough or maybe you have some low star ratings.

Exactly. And they could have been years ago, you completely forgot about it, kind of been abandoned. So do an audit of, you know, try to imagine if someone like a target customer, right, is searching either your brand, or a generic word. So if you’re ranking for those keywords, so they’re searching for the name of your firm or the name of you, or searching for interior designer plus,

Austin, Texas or whatever maybe and look at how what comes up and and take your definition of luxury and look at every single facet and ask yourself is this on par? then if you want to get even more detailed, I’d say because in my opinion, I think the epicenter of marketing for luxury marketing for designs

firms is your portfolio. And I would ask myself, is your portfolio up to date? Do you have your best projects listed? Are they professionally photographed? And are you telling stories behind the projects? This is one of my biggest pet peeves about the industry is that portfolios are oftentimes just photo galleries. And I think this is a disservice to your firm because yes, a photo can tell a million

It says a million words or so and it tells a million messages, but are they the right messages? Right. Looking at your photos from your portfolio, I don’t really know what you did. Did you tear down a wall and manage a team of general contractors and make sure that they were on time and then sticking to the budget? Did you get a permit from the city or did you just, you know, choose some paint colors and throw some pillows?

Right.

There’s a huge difference and telling the stories behind your portfolio could really, I think it’s a huge, it makes a huge difference. Like that sort of attention to detail, the care, the messaging is, some of the things that demonstrate that you’re an expert at what you do and that you’re premium, that you’re luxury.

Yeah, like kind of setting the stage, it sounds like instead of just having them tell themselves their own story through the photos, I think that that’s a really smart move and making sure that they’re up to date, right? Like I was reading in your article, you know, do you have photos that are just from like 2003 or do you have more recent projects that are up? And I know that in a photography and getting the right client and the right project that you’re able to photograph is a really

really huge hurdle for a of designers. And so it does take time and it takes dollars to be able to have that great photography that’s up on your site. And then if you’re wanting to get it published and what you can use and what you can, that is already such a game. So you’ve already gone to that expense of time with the client and getting a photograph. Like, why would you not just take a little bit more time to really think through, like, how can I tell this story?

So I really love that. So what are, do you have some examples of some firms that are successfully attracting luxury clients online? And do you feel like, do you have a couple that you could share with us and maybe some things that kind of set them apart?

So many.

Sure, I could start I mean there are so many examples it depends if you Want something specific, but the one I always like to tell is a story of Sansa interiors She was one of my earlier clients So we’ve been working with her the longest and I have the most like meets the most stories to tell from that experience So when I first started working with Jude of Sansa interiors, she had just been in business for a few years

She was an interior designer. She was working as an employee for luxury firms and she had branched off and started her own. So she was very familiar with the industry and working with affluent clients, but was just starting off with creating her own portfolio. she had done the challenge that she had was that she was number one, chasing a lot of clients and or chasing projects, right?

and struggling to get the kind of projects you really, really wanted to get. And when we looked at her site, or when we looking at her marketing strategy, really, she was doing a little bit of everything. But she wouldn’t stick to anything long enough to see results or create a process from it. She’d get frustrated, give it up, and move on to the next channel or strategy. So she was doing a little bit of social media, a little bit of vlogging, a little bit of blogging.

She even experimented with mail flyers and billboard ads. So could see that she was trying a lot of different social media platforms, but not sticking to one long enough. The same was true about her portfolio. She had beautiful, beautiful projects. But again, it was a little bit of everything. She did a little some condos, some single family homes, some offices and some restaurants. And so it’s hard to position yourself as premium as the best.

because that’s the flavor of luxury she was going for. She wanted to be known as highly skilled, as the premium, as the best, as an expert, but it’s hard to position yourself as that when you’re doing a little bit of everything. So one of the first things that we did was we told her, you gotta narrow down your focus, not just in the channels, the marketing strategy, but also the kind of projects that you’re working with or the target customer. So we asked

challenged her to come up with one target customer. She pushed back and she asked for two. So we chose two target customers. Two target projects. So nowadays she specializes in residential homes and cafes. And she’s here in Toronto, Canada. Most of our clients are in the States nowadays, but like I said, one of my first clients. And so,

Yeah, she’s doing quite well. She’s kind of, you know, she’s kind of, she’s really built a reputation for herself as the go-to interior designer across the entire province of Ontario for cafes. She’s really carved out that niche for herself. And if you wish, I could talk more about the details, but it kind of shows in the numbers as well. Before we started working together, she got 18 inquiries in the span of one year. And the following year, she got something like 77, I think.

All right.

And then in the third year, was 133. The numbers are on our website. But it’s something like that. Yeah, she saw she saw incredible growth. Yeah.

Well, and I think that it comes back down to some basics of just marketing, right? Like really identifying who you serve, who you enjoy to serve, who you serve best, that ideal client. And then really being consistent. Sometimes it’s not a sprint. It’s not just little tiny sprints. It’s a marathon of like you’re still steady and you’re running the race and you’re

keeping doing the things, you know, it’s very similar to when you’ve decided that you’re ready to lose that 10 pounds before summer and what you going to do for it? You’re going to set the goal and then going to exercise a little bit more and you’re probably going to eat a little bit different. And that consistency is what gets those results and those results in a shorter amount of time, right? And that are more lasting results because if we try to do it in just a sprint and do it overnight, we’re probably not going to get the results that we want. So that’s

Yes. Share? Yeah, I could give you so many. We have another one. She’s in Washington, DC. There’s another interior design firm called Lorla. Lorla came to us already with a pretty strong foundation. So she had been doing a little bit of PR, which was great. She got some really amazing press features, but she wasn’t getting leads.

Other examples like

and she had just reinvested into her website. So she did a website rebrand. There’s like not a re maybe she did a rebrand, but she did, she redesigned the website and she had really great photos. and, so she had a lot of the pieces already in place, right? She got press features that demonstrated that she, she got like authority, right? Like someone else, you know, a high authority website, kind of endorsing her. she got professionally taken photos.

She had pretty good positioning already. She just specialized in residential. She wasn’t doing a little bit of everything and it was all in the DMV area. And she had a really great website. And so it was really, she had the foundation in place and it was about just, you know, doing the rest. we took her, what was one of some of the things that we did? She didn’t have a Google maps listing. So that was one thing that we set up.

to put a process in place to get testimonials and she had incredible testimonials. The other thing was turning her projects into case studies. So she had great projects, great photos, but wasn’t telling the stories behind them. adding a little bit more of a story behind each project and then turning each project into blog posts. think on average, one blog post generates about six, sorry, one project generates about six blog posts.

Okay, wow.

And then another thing was getting her on best lists. So we pitch her to any sort of magazine or publication that is putting together a list of like the top 10 designers in DC. We got her on those lists. And now what we’re working on is getting her to speak at conferences and podcasts like these. Again, to position herself as the best interior designer in Washington DC.

There are a other things and her results, you know, I could pull up the numbers right now. I believe she got in the first year, she got 20 something leads and in the second year, 50, 50 something and she’s we’re working with her again this year and she’s already, I think almost at 50 leads and just Q1. So.

That is great news.

Yes, if I’m not mistaken, those are roughly the numbers.

Well, speaking of websites, let’s talk about how.

how to design or market a website as luxury using SEO, especially Google. And SEO, I know is search engine optimization. I just wanna put that out there for maybe some of our listeners that aren’t thinking in that vein of it. But so let’s talk a little bit about the search engine optimization when it comes to marketing a website for luxury on Google.

So to be on the first page of Google, you first have to decide what you want to be on the first page of Google for. So that’s, in other words, in technical terms, you got to define the target keyword, right? The keyword that you want to go after. That could be luxury interior designer near me or luxury interior designer and then the name of the city that you’re located in. But maybe that you got to also define your flavor of luxury.

maybe it’s revolving around a specific aesthetic, right? So minimalist interior designer or modern or traditional or contemporary. Maybe if you’re not an interior designer, but maybe a furniture maker, you want to target the key word custom furniture maker.

Whatever may be. So to really figure out what you want to be known as, how do you want people to find you or how are people currently finding you and you want to keep that up and then use that language throughout your website to use that language on your homepage, on your service page, on your about page and use tools like SEMrush or SEMrush is paid, but you could use free tools like Google search console to see how you are ranking for those keywords.

And as you use the keywords more and more, how your positioning or your rankings increase. Did you start off ranking number 100 and then as you use the keywords, maybe now you’re ranking number 50 or 20 or 30 or you want to be top 10 or top three ideally. using those, identifying the keyword that you want to be known as and using it throughout your website.

An easy way to use it as well on your website are the case studies like we talked about before, right? So case studies are an opportunity for you to add text to your website without using creating like fluffy blog posts like top 10 wallpapers to choose. You could talk about your work and you could also use keywords at the same time. So case studies are a really effective way. The other is getting press and awards or being featured on best lists. This is something called back.

So these links will be sent back to your site. People typically pay for this. When you hire an SEO agency, they typically pay small websites to link back to your sites because that’s an indicator to Google that, you know, you could say that you are the best interior designer or the luxury interior designer all over your website. But if nobody else is saying that, then it only has so much weight. So when you hire a traditional SEO agency, they typically will pay small websites to link back to your site.

But if you want to do it in more authentic way, and in my opinion, more luxury or premium routes, then you could do get real backlinks, Something that links that actually have real weight to them. And so getting press features, getting awards, getting featured on best lists are a way to get the link, but also improve your brand as well. Testimonials. So not just asking for testimonials through an email, but asking clients to leave a Google review, which is also a testimonial.

can help with your rankings on Google. And then I would say the last thing are, and I’ve said this before, but having really high quality photos of your projects, but also of you and your team having good headshots. Now that’s not really, that’s not quite something for Google to be honest. Like, yes, you could optimize the images, but that’s not gonna have as much weight as the other things that I mentioned before. However, it will make people stick to your website, right?

You get to the first page of Google. Yeah, you’ll get a lot of traffic, but you want to make sure that traffic converts. And having high quality photos, especially of your face, that builds a lot of trust and that gets people, that adds like a stickiness factor to your website and the likelihood of seeing more conversions is greater.

Okay, excellent. I love that. Okay, let’s talk about positioning a design firm as luxury. So how would you advise an interior design firm looking to define its own flavor of luxury?

Hmm.

I think about if you’re wanting to figure out what your flavor of luxury is, I’d say look at your best projects or your favorite projects. Maybe it doesn’t have to be a lot. It could just be your top three favorite and try to look for some patterns and some similarities. And if it’s too close to you, maybe ask a teammate, a friend, a partner, someone that’s a little bit removed.

to try to identify what they see the patterns, the common threads are. And I think from there, that could help you start to define what your flavor of luxury is.

Okay, and you I know you’ve talked a lot about photography and the story behind the photos. What else on a firm’s website and in their portfolio is going to help them reflect luxury and their positioning in the marketplace?

Having projects that are luxury will shine through in the photos, course.

Hahahaha

Some people think that being elusive, mysterious, not saying too much is luxury. I personally believe that that’s an outdated approach, it’s kind of stuffy. And in today’s digital age, you can’t get away with that anymore. Maybe if you have a very, very strong reputation, you’ve been in business for 20 plus years. But I don’t think that’s a strategy that’s gonna last much longer in today’s digital age. We need more information.

the modern consumer needs wants to be informed and they want information. So I think information or copy is important, but it not cheap copy, if I could say that, like don’t touch it. It’s it’s have a human and a skillful writer, write your copy. Something that has personality that is refined, that is tasteful.

but isn’t fluffy either that’s actually says something. What else? Positioning projects, photos, copy, and about you, like talk about you, show up, know, have an about page, have a bio, show us where you’ve been featured, link to your social media channels, to any podcasts, any conferences that you spoke on. People want to know who they’re end up hiring and so.

Make it easy for us to do that research by just providing those links.

You know, I look at so many different designers websites on a daily basis and I think that some really downplay the about us page or the about page. And then some overly emphasize the about right. And it’s like, well, wait a minute. Is this about you or is this about the need I have and what I’m trying to do to help me with that need. so I think that

Both are important, but a happy medium for sure. All right, well, let’s talk a little bit about the future of luxury marketing and more so on what trends are emerging in the luxury market that designers really should be paying attention to. know designers are so good at keeping up with the trends and helping to set them. But what do they really need to be paying attention to, especially in that luxury market?

I think the trends are really being dictated by the demographics. So nowadays, most affluent consumers are no longer baby boomers, they’re Gen X and millennials, and increasingly they’re becoming Gen Z. Soon they will be Gen Z. And so we’re finding that Gen Z is kind of defining the new definition, the current definition of luxury, which makes sense, right?

So there’s a really fabulous brand firm out in London called Dalzel and Powell. And they did a research study about the current state of luxury marketing. they’re finding that Gen Z, again, is defining what luxury marketing is. About 25 % of luxury goods are bought by Gen Z. And Gen Z is, you know, this generation is very passionate about diversity, inclusivity.

accessibility. They’re very purpose driven. They care about social causes and that comes out in their purchases and how they choose to spend their money. So they’re no longer interested in brands that are stuffy, that are elusive, that are mysterious, that are not friendly or not inclusive. so Dazelle and Pau have coined this term called accessible luxury.

which is kind of a contradiction. But again, speaking to what I said earlier about as wealth becomes more accessible, as the middle class grows, luxury, the definition of luxury has changed. so yeah, it kind of makes sense to me that this term accessible luxury is a thing in 2025. And so accessible luxury is about

What Gen Z is looking for brands that are willing to break a little bit of the structure that they’ve had so far. And brands like Gucci, Burberry, and Tiffany have been doing this so far. Like they’re doing these social media campaigns where they’re vandalizing their own brand or they’re using memes and gifts. And stores now they have super friendly staff. They’re no longer this distant and kind of

kind of cold or or reserves. They’re super approachable, very friendly. And we’re also seeing in their marketing campaigns, these really unexpected collaborations, we see really high end brands like Burberry and Gertie collaborate with like streetwear or artists that you would not typically, you know, expect. And so I think that I think that’s what luxury is becoming nowadays.

So is there that also changing the way those brands are communicating? mean, they’re definitely doing different types of collaborations and kind of being outside of the box in their marketing. But are there some ways that they’re communicating differently as well?

Yeah, for sure, right? They’re using this open language. They’re typically talking a lot more, where before they would not, the captions would be super short. The communication was quite minimal, and now they’re being more vocal. Or the example I gave before, right? Where they’re like vandalizing their own brand by adding memes and gifs. Yeah.

Okay, so what are some practical first steps for a design firm that wants to elevate its marketing and attract more luxury clients? I know a lot of our listeners, we have all sorts of different types of design firms that listen to our podcasts on a daily basis. Some people are just starting out, some people have been in business for 10 plus years. Some are on the East Coast, some are on the West Coast, some are in other countries.

What are just some ways that someone could get started with realizing that they need to elevate their brand and what really eager to attract that higher luxury client?

I’d say once you define what your flavor of luxury is once you figure out how you want to be known and what kind of customer you want to go after Start with your portfolio look at your portfolio and discard anything that doesn’t fit with that. So that could be really old pieces That could be small projects that you’ve been featuring just so that you could have something on your portfolio Think of start to have more of a quality over quantity approach. So even if you have fewer projects make sure those projects really

you know, fit the description and fit the vision that you’re going after. So once you kind of figure out which ones you want to display and which ones you don’t, now figure out if you need to display them any differently. The photos are already taken, right? So I mean, maybe you could get the photos kind of edited and freshened up. But probably the way that you display your portfolio could do with a refresh. There’s an architect that we work with that

He doesn’t do this with all of his projects, but he’s kind of has this like pyramid rating system that he has. So he’s got about a dozen projects on his portfolio, but about three of them are what he call like his star projects that he’s invested the most marketing time and efforts behind to really tell the stories behind it. And then he’s got a handful of projects that are kind of like middle tier and then another few projects that are.

high quality, but they’re smaller and he’s not going to like push them as much. So this the superstar projects those top three, he hired an illustrator to help him. Or maybe he did it himself actually now that I’m thinking about it, but they have hand drawings throughout the portfolio. So you can see the process of of the design and he tells the story. He hired a videographer as well to interview him and the and the homeowner and the space. So

I would start with that. think that’s an actionable thing that you could do. And probably you could do that today. You could do that this week.

Yeah, and just starting to tell the story, right? To not just for the images, but also through some really thoughtful captions and words of at the story time. And to show your brand, your brand voice through that as well. think is important.

Yeah. And remember that your portfolio is like a magnet, right? It can filter out people that are not a good fit and it can attract people that clearly are. And so the stronger that magnet is, the stronger the kind of fit, client fits that you’re going to find.

Excellent. Well, Daniela, we always love to end the podcast with three takeaways that you’d like to share with our audience.

Three takeaways about luxury marketing. I would say figure out your flavor of marketing, audit your projects, tell the stories behind them. and you know, when I say tell the stories that could be with photos, like visuals, with videos, or with with language, with text.

Thank you so much for joining us today, Daniela. It has been a treat. And I am always eager to learn more about luxury design, luxury marketing, how to work with a highly affluent luxury clientele. And I think that you have provided some excellent insights for us to ponder and think about. I was jotting a few notes down myself. So thank you so much for your time today.

Thank you so much for having me.

Do you dream of seeing your interior design projects in top-tier publications? Are you confused about the difference between PR and marketing, or unsure how to craft a compelling pitch that grabs an editor’s attention? If so, this episode is a must-listen!

On this episode of The Creative Genius Podcast, Erin Weir sits down with PR and marketing expert Dawn Brinson to explore the ins and outs of publicity for interior designers. With years of experience helping creatives build their brands and gain recognition, Dawn shares invaluable insights on how to navigate the world of PR, from crafting the perfect pitch to handling media inquiries like a pro. Dawn is currently the CEO of A New Day Creative Communications and Marketing, an agency which she founded.

Dawn breaks down the fundamental differences between PR and marketing and how the two work together to elevate a designer’s visibility. She explains that PR is all about shaping public perception and influencing action, whether through media features, industry awards, events, or speaking engagements. But, as she notes, “Marketing is the overarching discipline…PR is one of the tactics that we put under marketing typically.”

In this episode, you’ll learn:

Dawn also shares why it’s essential to be patient when pursuing media coverage. PR isn’t an overnight success story. It’s a long-term investment that requires strategy and persistence. She recounts a story of a client who waited nearly a year for their project to be featured, showcasing that sometimes the best opportunities take time.

As the media landscape continues to evolve, Dawn provides practical advice on leveraging digital platforms, social media, and owned content (like blogs and newsletters) to attract press and build an audience. Instead of waiting for an editor’s approval, you can “create so much dynamic demand in what you are doing on your own sites that editors and journalists and freelancers and others come to you and say, would you give us some of this?”

Whether you’re new to PR or looking to refine your publicity strategy, this episode is packed with actionable tips to help you gain recognition and build a lasting brand.

To keep up with what Dawn is doing, follow her on Instagram.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s13e3-shownotes

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Well, Dawn, I’m so excited to have you, my good friend Dawn Brinson on the Creative Genius podcast today. Thanks for joining me.

Thanks so much for having me.

the area and I really do appreciate it.

Yeah, well, let’s go ahead and get started and just share a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure, sure. My company is called A New Day. It’s creative communications and marketing. I work with all sorts of creative entrepreneurs that are your designers, furniture manufacturers, product manufacturers, anyone who has a creative bend to their business and themselves. On public relations and marketing, brand strategy, brand visioning,

into the designer.

product designers.

work on public

executive consultation, had the great good fortune to have Pearl Collective as a client for a number of years now and it’s been a terrific relationship for me. And I’m based in High Point, North Carolina, but serve clients all over the world.

I love that. I love that. Well, it’s always nice to know that you are feet on the ground and high point. You always know what’s moving and shaking.

especially when this herd of people come to High Point twice a year and gather together for market. So let’s go ahead and dive in. So most people use marketing and PR interchangeably, and they are different, but they’re interconnected disciplines. And so can you help us understand some of the differences and similarities between the two?

Absolutely.

valuable to those who work on this side of the business.
I think a lot of the time. Marketing is the all-encompassing discipline of putting together a strategic plan for your business, for where you are now versus where you want to be, and then how to get there. PR is one of the tactics that we put marketing technically, number of others, and to us, PR is public relations.

under market.

Some people use.

as a shorthand for press release and that’s fine. Public Relations covers an entire gamut of services and you can use separately from all of the other marketing tactics and tools and ideas. I like to look at it as integrated part of a holistic marketing effort.

perfectly.

Use it.

the dialogies.

the whole way through marketing.

Okay, well, I think that that’s probably a helpful definition for a lot of people because a lot of people want to get published, but I think sometimes they get into what is a marketing tactic versus what’s getting published versus there’s so many different terms out there. So I’m glad that we started with that just so that we’re all on the same page. Okay, so let’s talk about some specific things that fall under the PR category and which ones designers can really

use well and probably should be using.

Some of the things that designers can use in terms of PR. Public relations covers a lot more than just getting published or being recognized in some sort of location or digital platform. Public relations is all about creating a particular perspective, a particular perception of you and your business and then using that to influence

Public digital.

brand.

people to take a certain kind of action for you. That’s what public relations is all about. So we may use the press to do a lot of that for us, whether it be having a project published or an interview for you as an executive, but it can also be thinking about winning an award or getting some other sort of accolade. We also throw

or not that would

you

like.

events like podcasts and those sorts of things into the public relations, big pot of things that are happening. So there are many ways to leverage public relations in a way that is.

that in getting press, also other sports of elements of notoriety, again, how us as PR professionals or you as designer to change the perception about your company and to persuade people to do something specific.

that allow

the design.

Okay, so when it comes to pitching to editors in the interior design space, what do you see as some of the common mistakes that designers make and how can they refine their pitches to really stand out in that crowded inbox of that editor?

Absolutely. The first thing that we need to recognize is that the publication landscape, whether or not we’re talking print publications or digital platforms has changed so dramatically just in the last five years that you pitch when you pitch and how you pitch has changed. The policies around it haven’t changed, but what you can expect from it and how often you can do

there.

the way

around it.

really have.

altered. So for example, you have to be incredibly brief in any kind of pitch that you want. We as creatives want to tell a story. my goodness, do you see this

around everything. want to tell you all the details.

This piece of marble that’s over my shoulder came from India, and I want to

may, etc. Regular and smart, savvy pitch is really simple and to the point to an editor. It has to be something that will capture his or her attention very quickly. If that’s not the case in the first, let’s say, 25 words, then you’re probably going to get pushed to one side because these editors are even busier than they’ve been.

of

incredibly busy.

in years past. If there is something that is unique about your project that you want to see, need to say that upfront again and very quickly. No longer do we have the pleasure of publishing really beautiful environments. Everybody’s environments that pitching are really pretty and exceptional work.

or about something to speak about.

and are generally, they’re really.

be something unique. needs to be something

something sometimes a little controversial about it or a little different in order for it to find space in a publication. You also want to know what it is that that particular publication likes to publish. are you looking for? Don’t send a beautiful country estate to a publication that

about it.

Mm-hmm.

they looking for.

only does modern townhouses. Don’t send them something blue and white if they’ve done five things that are blue and white that you’ve seen in the last year. That’s just wasting everybody’s time. So, you know, let’s kind of get serious about it. So what you really want to have in a quick, simple pit, your contact information, clear, upfront, straightforward, how to get in touch

with you.

If you’re doing a project.

pitching a project.

They’ll want to know where it is, what’s special about it, what did you do? They love looking at the entire project, even if you didn’t do all of it, because that gives them context. Tell them again why it’s unique and different, and tell them that you will follow up with them in a short period of time. Also let them know that resolution images are available. Please do not inundate them with a ton of imagery.

send them two or three really great photos, maybe five.

beyond that.

Either give them a link, tell them that there’s a box available, put them on your website in a hidden area that they can go and find, but don’t give them 30 megs of fabric for you. And then be prepared for what may happen next.

drop by.

you know, the top, it’s just not gonna work.

I love that OK so then when when interior designers are ready to get published, how can they research the right editors or journalists to target? So what are what are some of those? Right ways to go about the research of who they should be reaching out to. You were mentioning, you know, don’t send a cottage to, you know, a modern magazine editor. So can you give us some other tips on?

how to get those right editors and journalists in the queue.

Sure. It is harder now than it has been before. course. Not only are getting a ton of information, and the more information they get, the more information they pull back from being found. I would say still, the very best way is magazine mastheads. That’s the list of all of the editors and publishers.

And the right journalists. Are they incredibly busy?

Likely it is that.

or photographer.

and writers and photographers at every magazine. So you can that direction. There are services that you can subscribe to online that will give you names and contact emails of editors. Some of them are very inexpensive. Some of them can get a little pricey depending on the size of them, but you can research those online. If you’re regularly publishing, you’re only pitching, one of those might

Pinky.

if your regular be a good opportunity.

Especially if you’re going to be looking for regional publications, you can find most of that information online simply by going to each publication’s website. So for example, if you have a statewide magazine that covers style and trends and you can typically find that online. You can find your regional design publications online as well. can download media kits.

at.

and all of those things.

surprisingly often the most of editors will be contained within the media kit and most

that’s free and you could just go.

from their website. So there are a lot of different ways that if you’re doing it yourself, it is a little time consuming. But here’s the trick. Don’t try to find everybody. Try to find the particular publications that are super important to you and that fit your niche and your comparable kind of work or your comparable leadership that if you want to offer

kind of there is finding.

area.

an interview or expert advice and stick to those to begin with.

in you’re

those then you are reaching out to

some major publication or a different publication that you’ve never heard of or that you don’t have a good.

Okay. So what are some ways that designers can take a more personalized approach to, know, so that they stand out? I know you talked about keeping the submissions very simple, you know, not a lot of graphics, that sort of thing, but how can you kind of stand out in the crowd when you’ve got this full inbox? I mean, I go to my inbox, I’m not even an editor when I go to my inbox in the morning and I’m like.

Okay, well here’s all the things I can go ahead and archive that are not important.

Absolutely. And again, we go back to how you can capture an editor’s attention quickly. So sometimes it’s about geography. For example, a particular publication, let’s say, you’ve been covering things in the Midwest and in the Great Plains states.

If you’ve been watching a particular, been watching a national publication grow.

Maybe what they’re looking for and haven’t found is something phenomenal from the deep south or the mid-Atlantic.

land and you can’t.

Coast, even in the subject line, mid-Atlantic coastal, mid-October, lugger, vacation rental. Right. And that would capture their attention. would open up. It isn’t a subject line that is something so standard like…

manner earned jury.

and that happened.

see my beautiful new project.

Because they are, although projects are beautiful, it’s just what makes it unique about that project. One special.

Right? Yes. And again, it’s all about being concise and being to the point. And even for someone like me who has done it for a number of years, that’s the hardest thing to do is to say it in his

words with the right words.

Possibly can to make someone stop just long enough to pay attention. It’s very much the same mentality as the Instagram scroll do something first and Being concise and letting them know The way you have structured your pitch and what you have done that, you know Your time is valuable

to make them stop. Second. what is that?

Thread.

that you know how to manage that, you know how to manage them.

getting the information that they need, they don’t have to train you on what they need. And if you set it up properly, then they’ll see that and they’ll be more likely to tend to that.

to do a lot of work to

I think the closest thing that I have a reference point to is when I’ve helped judge different awards in the industry, right? And so there’s all these different spots that you can submit your project or your submission or how you want to talk about it or the pictures for it. And it’s so much easier when you’re just having to click a couple different documents to kind of get the whole picture and read a little bit instead of clicking on

all sorts of different documents. And so I’m sure that’s kind of a similar process of, you know, it makes it even a better experience for the editor or that person that is receiving it to be able to make a more quick decision, I would think.

Absolutely, absolutely.

They want to respect their time. And keep in mind that if you don’t hear from an editor, that doesn’t necessarily mean no. Just means I don’t have time. Now I don’t have time to make a decision or I’ve looked at it and it doesn’t necessarily fit this very second. No. And even if you get a no at the moment, no doesn’t really mean no. No, just being. Minute.

That just to look at it, right.

not write this.

They just don’t have a place for it right now. That doesn’t go back at some point and repitch it if you’ve photographed it differently or you have done more, a separate phase of it you can take. But just keep in mind that you understand from their point of view this isn’t about you. It’s not about the quality of your work. It’s not a reflection of

mean you can’t go.

different.

it back.

that you have to.

whether or not.

not they think highly of you. That it’s not that’s not. So no or no answer shouldn’t be taken as a personal tragedy. That sometimes I will also say that if you don’t hear from someone, if you can give them just a little bit of leeway to think about it, then you can find

how they’re about.

Yeah, and we feel like

Yeah.

up in a couple of weeks and ask is there anything.

more that I provide to you. I’d be more than happy to.

Meet with you, jump on a Zoom, send additional information. Or I have seen one more photo. Do the trick.

Even in our daily work together, you have opportunities that come across your desk. I have opportunities that come across mine specifically for our boardroom members in what the different magazines are looking for. And you just never know if it’s a specific region or a specific type of project, but usually it’s like, we’re dialing into this radius. We’re looking for this particular kind of thing. And, you know, not always can you get your hands on the editorial calendar to see what they’re looking for next. So.

Important to keep an open mind.

And an editorial calendar only goes so far. They’re going to give you the larger viewpoint on things. Really, really common for editors to start down the path of thinking, okay, here are the three big steps. And the well, don’t know that term, is where most of the articles live. Magazines and you see the masthead at the front, new publisher’s letter and

There are only.

It’s nearly.

be stories in the well.

zine.

Look at that.

Then you see a lot of advertising and some product sorts of things. And then you get into what’s known as the edit well. And that’s where the big stories are. They may find want to change the articles in the edit well, because suddenly they’ve all of these great submissions that are using rich saturated colors. And the saturated colors or the, you know, what color is it kind of approach to it.

that they want to change up.

Got

people. They suddenly want to do a collide.

rather than they were to…

to do a singular script. you never know what’s happening behind the curtain in those editorial meetings.

for it will be.

Such good advice, such good advice. Okay, so we’ve talked about kind of how to figure out who you’re gonna pitch to, how to kind of put together your pitch. So now once the pitch has actually been successful and you’ve got an editor raising their hand saying, I wanna feature you as a designer, your design project, how can the interior designers that are listeners of us,

know that they’re really truly ready for that media spotlight. How do they get prepared? Are there certain steps that they should take knowing that this publicity is coming?

Absolutely. And I would say some things that you need to do before you ever it. You need to be prepared because usually when this happens, there is a hustle right after it. If someone says, yes, we want to do this, then there are a whole series of things you need to do very, very fast. Often,

There are send out that.

that you

that will be followed by an incredibly long door.

long delay where you see the world is coming to an end because nothing is happening and then there’s another massive hustle at the end. So you need to accommodate the editors when they need you to hustle. There are things like

nothing

to be prepared.

things like if it’s a project and you are ready.

We need to know all the details.

about that project and have them in hand.

from paint colors and providers, the rug, lighting, the furnishings, all the little details that you can go ahead and have. I recommend when you do project, you create a document at the same time. That is essentially the project photography doc that covers everything that you just photographed. So that if an editor says,

The

All the-

Do photography.

document.

drug is that within a matter of turn that around. don’t have to be waiting for it. You don’t have to go look.

minutes you

So have that prepared. You need to have your headshots already in the can, as we say, ready to go. The ones chosen that you love. If you’ve already touched, get all of that done in advance. both JPEG and TIFF, you also want to be polished up because they will want to know you. You will have a company statement ready that describes your company.

you need to have them.

have the, yeah.

and probably

the end.

a hundred words or less. You can do a much longer one. It needs to be this short.

they’re also sort of short statement about who you are and what’s different and what’s different about what you’re doing.

fun or unique, precious about doing. You also need to be prepared to answer questions from a particular publication. What happens oftentimes is editors and editorial groups will put together all of the projects they think are worthy of worthwhile and a possibility.

different that they were.

for one or two or three issues at the same time. They get together, start looking and they cull things out and they pull things in and they push this one over completely. And then they come back to you, they’ve done all of their work and they come back to you and they say, here’s our questionnaire, here’s our lease form, have this back. And you need to be prepared.

get together, then they start.

here and that one over there and they take this one out.

We need to have in 24 hours.

you to turn that around because that’s the difference between you possibly

possibly getting in and somebody taking your slot. Those questions fast enough.

if you don’t answer them.

Right, because once they have all of the things that they need and they can green light it, then it’s one last thing that they have to deal with. And it’s often to the land of publishing. So that’s that’s great. So what about for those designers that maybe aren’t used to being in the public eye or consider themselves a little more introverted and they got a little maybe a little stage fright that could pop up for them?

No, and we all have different characteristics. Strangely enough, I tend to be pretty introverted. Most people seem to out of their comfort zone. But I understand that hesitation to, oh, I don’t know how to this. You created something gorgeous. You’re educating people. All that is, you’re sharing that.

I mean

People don’t see that because I’m trained to be able to the public eye and do what I need to

how to handle this.

And you are on what?

It’s often true that when it comes to a lot of different publications, want to know a lot of They don’t necessarily want to know you. And that can be a real safety net. Particularly loving being in the limelight. It’s easy to tell your story and find that having that for it. And so don’t always feel like

for people who are not.

stand behind the story without having to step

Suddenly the Klee glides on your face.

are, you know, it’s really looking at how you want the situation to be revealed. I would say that they get notice that it’s the project or it’s the commentary that they are providing that gets notification for you.

want to handle and what you all about yourself and how much you want to say more often than not

Yeah.

theory.

Because we want to hear from you and why you chose this and what your vision was and it was an experience that you had that gave you this incredible mood board that put the project together. Well, I also would categorize myself as an introvert. It was funny. I was meeting with a couple of moms the other day to plan my son’s last elementary school party and

And we were just kind of getting to know each other and I’m definitely an introvert. And I was like, well, I really am kind of like an introverts extrovert because I can extrovert until I can’t anymore. And then I have to kind of go into my cave and, and re reconfigure myself and then I can get back out there. And it was so funny because these two people that had no idea who I was, they’re like, that’s not who you are at all. Like you’re definitely an extrovert, an extrovert compared to us. And I’m like, well,

I might just be able to hide the introvert a little bit better here and there. But I’m pretty sure you were saying you were an introvert. And I think that maybe I read on one of your questionnaires coming in that you were an intern for the Rockettes one summer.

I’m ch…

Yeah.

Is that an introvert thing to do? I’d like to hear just a little smidge on that one for a minute.

Interestingly enough, didn’t have the idea when I was young that I was going into public relations.

I

The idea of marketing that was that was not where I was headed.

But I had done a ton of dance in theaters and actually had an opportunity to be what they call a summer substitute.

hitter through the year.

Rockette was like the the pinnacle of what I had done a lot of other professional dance at that point.

I wanted to do. was really what I wanted to do. it’s my biggest sort of that I do it. Oh, man. Yeah.

Probably by her professional regret, got talked out of it and didn’t.

What a cool experience. remember my grandfather used to sit there in the Macy’s Day parade and watch the Rockettes and he was just mesmerized. And then he would say to me, he’s like, Erin, if you’ve got it, you got to fawn it because these women, their legs are amazing and they are so synchronized. like, I don’t know what’s going on in your world right now, but I like watching them too.

Yeah, it’s a lot of fun. And the interesting thing is it’s in that.

a lot like design.

You have to work really, really, really hard behind the scenes for a long time to get any kind of recognition.

the same long time to up to a level where you feel like you can’t in that way, play in that environment. But more than that, have replace the right time. have to really pitch yourself multiple times before you get any traction with it. But the interesting thing is, especially

and I’m putting this in error.

or sort of

to be in the right place the right

probably multiple times or you get any kind of

especially when it’s as apparent.

I did it. It’s not it’s narrative name. But you had to fall within certain terms very much like when an editor is making a decision. Right. You could only be within a few inches of a

with certain parameters.

certain height, either low or high, you have

had to have certain characteristics.

to be able to wear your hair back and not look too sharp.

our faith in all of the other things. It didn’t matter if you were most phenomenal dancer that had

stamina and you could do eight shows a

weak and still stand upright, there were all these other things that and so that’s how I have learned to translate in public relations because I had to develop that understanding that it really was it was all these other things

went on. I think that the trans working.

All of the other things that you fit a mold for.

All right, well that was perfectly woven into our storyline here. I love that. And a little bit about Don. So I’m always learning new things about you, even in all the years that we’ve worked together. So as press starts to roll in, how can a design firm handle multiple media inquiries without getting too overwhelmed? I mean, on a daily basis, we’re overwhelmed with…

The amount of work that’s coming and the amount of staff that we have to manage, right? There’s so many different hats to wear as an interior design business owner. So how can you help with that overwhelm of the excitement of the media coming in?

Sure, sure.

And it is a little bit time consuming like in anything else in your business. It’s taking on sort of change that’s necessary. It doesn’t happen all

It’s just like anything on a whole new channel of work. All the time. It’s not going to happen every

day unless you are one of just a very, very small hand.

of those who sort of live in rarefied air.

So what I would say is take a breath, remind yourself that this is what you wanted, and then start looking at how do I manage this in light of where I’m in business to ultimately.

look

Man.

I want my business to go. And you can usually get some clarity. You can breathe through it at that point because you’re probably hyperventilating at that moment.

So give yourself some room to appreciate getting what you have and manage it. If you’ve got multiple employees on the same project, that’s where things can get a bit of a sticky wicket because most publications, unless they’re fairly regional, regional publication and industry-grade publication, you’re going to have

the fact that you’re doing the task for. Now you can manage.

or it’s a regional public and industry trade.

people who want exclusivity for project. So you’re going to have to make a determination then.

on particular. What can I give to this one versus this one? Which one is going to give me exposure with the kind of clientele that I want or where I want to go?

Every year.

with something. Hopefully you can into that.

You don’t follow from snafu because it can back out. Maybe back and suggest different sorts of things. I hesitant to pitch widely.

can be very uncomfortable. One of those, an editor, you have to be prepared to come. Rooms those. Very.

project, I would rather target one national publication or don’t fall into those categories.

it. They’re now regional publication, industry publication so that we because what happens then is the editor has pinned his or her

hope on having that particular project the way he or she it to And then you’re pulling the rug out from under them. So that can be a hard thing. So be pretty careful with that. But if you have multiple in-

she thinks it’s going to be.

hard thing to say.

multi-queries, then that’s fantastic. You know, maybe somebody wants to interview you because you and unexpected view on what’s going on.

you have a point of view on some topic in the industry. That’s maybe one of the project maybe one

great, do that. As a product, one of them has to do with how your business or your team, one of a kind of men’s or women’s publication talking about wellness and business, go for all of that. That’s all good. And if it gets

you have built.

them might be different.

Good. Too overwhelming. You can find a person to help you with.

Darp.

Yeah, wink wink. Okay, so then once you actually do get featured in a major outlet, how do you make the most out of that publicity?

question here and I’m glad you asked it thank you so Gone are the days, absolutely nobody, being the same publications and so you’re pretty doggone shit. Your clients or your potential clients seeing

much because it’s where absolutely everybody is reading.

sure.

are what’s getting published.

It’s imperative that you understand how to leverage or give legs to is what we see in our industry, the jargon. How to give your publicity some extra legs. That is two things.

say here in the.

If you

newsletter that goes out. Very gracious. newsletter. Social media is a

You can be better about inclusion in your e-letter. Media is a great outlet and you can tag the public, you the editor, you can tag the photographer, really push it out there that way as well. You can to if it’s something that you’re very proud of. When you’re able to it there, you may be better

application you can tag the

You know,

Use it in your biop…

and your next opportunity comes up, you’re in. They have a press or an education or a resources section on that you can include. What happens to go up your web of a particular article or if it’s a link or if it.

your a PDF or ever have on your website.

video you can put that site if you happen to have a YouTube

Also on your website, YouTube channel or some other long form video channel, you can go in and talk about the inclusion and those sorts of things.

If you have a blog, you can put it in.
your blog. There are any number of ways to continue.

carrying this out. Take it on social because I think most of us are thinking about social these days. professional opinion would be give it all away on social posts. You have the opportunity to spread that out over little bit. Strategize how can I post because we all know social media is a content eater and you want to have you

I’m ready.

Don’t wait at one time in one.

to use this in multiple ways.

want to give it as much readability as possible. Look at ways to carry that.

air and

I would that through over a course of even weeks.

Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about the relationships behind all of this. So once an editor has featured an interior designer, how can that interior designer continue to build and nurture that relationship for future opportunities for coverage? And what are some ways to kind of maintain that visibility with the key media contacts over time?

Just like any other relationships, you’re a time developing relationships with higher-ups,

are working

level architects or builders or

These are real relationships. These are business, but they are similar to how you would create those sorts of relationships within your industry. So for example, some people like to… Not as if you have to, you know, send a huge bouquet of flowers.

based.

I think don’t go overboard.

to an editor that does that. I that’s something that you normally do. Okay. It’s really not necessary.

If that’s necessary, go do it. But it’s necessary and some editors feel a little receiving because they are making editorial decisions not for themselves, but what they believe to say they are serving themselves. But I do believe in

If their readers want to see both, their reader, not themselves.

Thank you notes. I do believe in thank you emails. think

that it’s wonderful to when they can to on social media.

When a program say you call them out and be with gratitude I think that’s very important area where you might be.

If you’re in an area and you’re able to meet up with an editor, you can certainly do that.

you know, high point market is probably the best.

place in the world to the most number of editors in one place. if you’re, you know, you just say, I’ve been at some of your time just to shake your hand and say, thank you. You know, some editors are, let’s say you’ve gotten to know them a little bit, you know, there is, you know, coffee shop, a little gift card.

down here and you know I’d really like to have.

That means a lot.

if you want to know your favorite shop x y z and you pop the

It’s a surprise every now and then that that’s fine, but they don’t really expect.

that they’re not looking for it and that’s not going to change the calculus of whether or not you get covered.

again. You can also ask them if there are opportunities to

if our opportunities meet the needs of their colleagues. And there will be chances for

And oftentimes, answer for you to meet someone from public. So again, just the way you are creating relationship marketing in your business, you do the same.

companion publication.

thing on the editorial side.

You’re one of those introverts and that intrusion of one’s where you can’t go.

feels like.

side and down the other. That’s where leverage a PR pro or a publicist because we already have those relationships. It’s our job to twin. You can say if you’re working with a PR pro then follow up and create that continued. That’s how we leverage those sorts of things.

to make 20-year connections to people.

It depends on us to

connection because that’s on your back.

Love that.

that reference of a 20 year relationship that feels very worthwhile and worth every cent. Because I’m sure that almost this this kind of gifting or you know, how do I stay in front of them could kind of go overboard sometimes and almost to the point of being a little annoying. So it’s great to have some some guidelines on that for sure. So as the press begins and the spotlights on the designer,

How can the designer really stay true to their authentic brand voice and identity when media requests are coming in as they’re kind of navigating which media requests are the right ones to say yes to?

That goes back to having done your early understanding what your business is all about. Are what then it can true to you sometimes these things come along and they are like a meteor shower of

homework beyond and.

who your audience is.

long or long.

stars in your eyes.

Can you imagine? I must. But it may be one of those things that just doesn’t get to go. This isn’t just about that. Or I’ll pat on the back. You really need to look at this through the lens of how is this going to propel my business? Where I want it to go. And so you have to be pretty times with yourself.

Be where you need to

Atta boy, atta girl.

this for my brand.

about that and say

You know, does this fit in with where I go? Does this fit in with the strategy? This one of my goals? Am I sure? Because it’s time consuming. It can be financially consuming too, depending on, let’s say you’ve done a

I laid out for myself is this.

baby.

Beautiful job of photography, this. Back in. Graph it a completely different way.

editor wants to come in and photo which sounds terrific until you get the contract and you’re the one responsible for all the Right. All the cleanup and etc.

stage and all the setup.

etc. etc. The catering the day that the photographer and everybody is there. You can run up dollars saying yes to something. You really, your ultimate

Thousands and thousands and thousands of

You need to make sure that it really serves adults.

Okay. So let’s talk a little bit about maybe the negative side of press, right? So what should a designer do if they receive negative press criticisms? How can they handle that without damaging their reputation? I think we see that in the movies, right? When it’s like, this is happening, we’re going to do XYZ to fix it ahead of time. And, you know, they’re pulling all these bells and whistles, but like, how do you handle that?

Usually, fortunates typically don’t get hit with a of which is really good. But no publicity or decent publicity, isn’t, doesn’t quite hit the mark. And sometimes what that is, is you get an experienced writer that doesn’t quite get your vibe and it comes off a little strange.

Now we’re in a really forced situation.

designers with a lot of bad publicity. You either get, you get.

great

I should do that.

The answer to that is unless it is fully inactive.

accurate, live with it.

Rarely does a designer get hit with bad ass. That’s actually associated with business that happened. There was a lawsuit that somehow ran, your name got associated.

a design. Right. Some power another associate with something

You know, they’re

another it was something that happened with a project and you had nothing with it but you got

They’re injury, they’re whatever the range of things.

Mm-hmm.

There are ways to, I think, graciously.

very

day.

not me, then, but you consult a PR on that.

didn’t participate in that. Really should. I’m not pitching myself for that. That’s not what that’s not what this is about. This is about.

This is understanding that there is a way to manage a certain reputation if necessary. But most of the time, again, unless it is fact,

and a level of.

actually inaccurate or you are being smitten by force of action.

beard, oftentimes the best course is not. But again, consult with someone who has experience in reputation management.

before you do anything because if you

If you off somewhere and that can just make it worse and there’s an old that’s still be true. You don’t want to get into a battle with somebody by the gown.

hop back on somebody and

saying very, very bad.

Okay, so you’re growing your public profile. Sometimes it can feel like the media demands can overwhelm maybe your daily operations of your business. So what advice do you have for designers to help like kind of balance that influx of media attention and running their business and still staying productive, right? Like we’re continuing to coach to, you gotta be, you know, building for your time and you’ve gotta be.

know, making sure that you’re billing for your hours and that your time is really valuable. So when you get these media inquiries, how do you handle all of that and still be productive as a business?

And a lot of that goes to your as well because your time this is about build a business, but it’s not early that you can create around right away.

overall IR.

This is about your

how you

something necessary.

billable hours. You’re taking billable hours from that. You have to start thinking about

Is this the appropriate avenue for in terms of the amount of time that I in it and what’s that going to do to everything else that’s or why. Again we get those start.

The investment that I need to

Either current in the pipe.

in our eyes and we think this is going to be everything and let’s make it.

It’s it’s it’s.

I mean, it’s definitely exciting, but you still have to have the clients and, you know, the business to keep running to stay afloat and say yes to the next opportunity.

We really do. And you have to remember that the national coverage is about creating visibility, elevating your brand. It’s not about getting popular. More often than not, from regional publications, even some industry publications that are read by consumers, also your social media.

typically

It’s about creating branding sure it’s about a brand. Those more

a J.

and all of those other kinds of things.

I believe you have to have a good balance of all of that to build a really secure business.

all in order to successful business. So don’t get too far afield in one or the other while you’re trying to continue.

the other, I’ll need to build that core business.

that you’re going after because you still have to work just as many hours as you did yesterday. Now you’re just

doing media on top

Well, and definitely when it comes to not just PR, but also marketing, it’s it’s that you can’t just dive into one thing and only do one thing. You have to get the plates spinning on all the different spots and then see where you’re getting the results as to where to put more of your more of your energy in dollars for sure.

Absolutely, absolutely and again with the PR angle.

And you know, particularly you can’t depend on the one and done, you know, published.

right? get and then and now what? And you’ve got to be prepared to do and now what’s that we talked about earlier.

You’ve got to those.

Love that. Okay, so for designers who are investing in PR, okay, how can they measure that return on investment from the press that they received? So we talk a lot here at Pearl Collective about key performance indicators or KPIs that they should be tracking kind of as the EKG of their business. And so what kind of KPIs would you be tracking to understand the impact of the efforts around publicity?

Absolutely. There have been years, even through public relations and professional groups.

bruise a gear.

associations, a lot of conversation about around he or to get your it’s very

measurement are because it is so hard hands around. You know, it’s almost like silly putting in a way it stretches and it molds and then we have thing that gives us really strict measurement and is really hard to measure because it’s all about much large scale measurement device like tone and

It changes. Never anything a really strong.

about a more real core quality and those sorts of things that necessarily apply to our particular industries. So having said that.

don’t necessarily understand.

The traditional way that we used to measure it years and years and years ago was literally column inches. So if you were to… number of column inches of advertising… That according to the coverage that you…

How would you wait to see what you got? But that doesn’t take into account the quality of the publication. You can do with it. Whether or not

and what you can afterwards. It was in a publication that. I tend to be focused on how does this move the needle? You’re a particular business. You have that out. And to me, that’s the biggest lift of PR. That’s where you measure it.

drove any kind of business.

very

to the goal for you and the goals that you have set.

y’all

I

always counsel clients to understand what the goals and the strategy are going to

are coming in.

Mm-hmm.

Then when the publications come, it happens to be, measure it against those very specific goals that we.

out or the blog out or you get covered in a digital

We can do it.

We have our already set out.

If that’s the case, then you start seeing the success measurement come in. Because populations is such a long take in this. It’s not transactional. It’s not I’m selling popcorn from a popcorn stand on the corner. And so I know

Secondary public.

that I was successful if I sold 80 % of my public.

our popcorn. takes a really long time to see the long term of it. And so we don’t always know that a client has taken. Yeah, because all this particular publication, they then went to your website, they went to your social media.

No. Action. months.

I think social media, then they filled out an email form, then they talked to their.

friends. So it really is one of those things where measurement takes a lot and it can be somewhat anecdotal.

It’s on time.

But we do know that success can be measured in various tools that we are using and the tracking that we’re using.

success through the various

If you’re interested in how many things then circulation numbers or blog numbers are for you and that’s another that’s a different measurement. But key measures is what did you do? You have it. It’s the dog chasing the car. You know, once he gets it, what’s he going to do with it? So be sure and

The eyeballs see.

Are they for you or?

are out there for kind of I think one of the.

and do that, usually are pretty successful over the course of.

Yeah, I mean, I would even think that as you’re starting to look at like your reports on your keywords to see if some of the SEO keywords are changing, I know that they are changing for us in interesting ways. mean, I’m starting to realize that my name is a keyword and I’m like, wow, like that’s not something that I was thinking about. Like I didn’t even have that as a goal, but it’s starting to show up in the reports. And so then I look at like, OK, well,

in 2024, what things that I do that maybe brought more press or media around Pearl Collective and Erin at Pearl Collective. And there were some things that we did. And so, you know, that was one measurement of like, well, that’s cool. And now what do we do with it? know, so that’s interesting.

Some people also use a little bit of social media advertising to go along with their posts related to publicity. Published in Iran. Want to put a of that. You can measure it is.

where some of

say you got regional magazine and you put a piece paper out on your social media. Another way that you either do a social media ads or boost posts behind that.

and see what the change is, what the delta is in all of your measurements. They start to you a good sense too of

on that and that will give

whether or not it’s resonating to people in your target audience.

Okay. I like those ideas for sure. Okay. So let’s talk a little bit about patience. So many designers expect immediate results from PR efforts. So how can we help designers set realistic expectations about the timeline for media coverage and the more of the long-term that marathon run that we’re on for building a public profile?

you were.

If you are being.

you

Long relations.

term public relations is a bit of a struggle for you. Let’s just get it out there and say it.

If you need immediate kinds of either you should need start building your business.

ratification or you need to start

quickly, you need to look at your opportunities. Those are things that you. That’s that website that. Happen to have a video.

Gap, short tail opportunity. You own yourself. Again, social media.

you you have channel, any of those, you’re open.
in an inbox magazine or newsletter.

mean, it’s a need for you to report to these studies yourself. You can have an immediate impact with.

newsletter maybe published

Those are things that can immediately implement. And you can also talk to them generally, and you’re talking to an audience that is more selective. The next kind of public relations should be your regional publications.

target where you want to go.

a little more affected already for you than others. So, one element of ring

That can be anywhere from your local newspaper if that’s still published, local magazines, regional magazines, state

to regional publications or regional publications. They will have publication timelines in

public aid.

anywhere from 24 hours to three or four months.

So with those kinds of… If you’re talking even digital publications of a national or print publications of a national consumer based industry.

If you can live

waiting games. Okay. And we’ll talk about that in a minute.

Also

sort that are typically rather than stream. We’ll talk a little bit about industry in a minute.

You’re going to have to have the patience.

That’s just all there is to it. Really lucky.

And sometimes you get you slot right in to something that they’re

working on three or four or five down the road.

That’s unusual. Less common than the typical, is, you know, six months ahead now and. We’ll say four months, but.

And we’re working

You know, we used to be able to. Editors are writing for lots of different public.

And so, could be six months, it could be eight months. I had 11 months to hear back the publication that it was yesterday published. That meant that they couldn’t use it, couldn’t use any of the photos for this particular project.

they’re writing much further.

One client who waited a

from the was going to be.

any photo on their social.

The homeowners couldn’t put it out there. The builders, the architects, the lands designers, nobody could use it. You couldn’t put it on your website. You couldn’t share it anywhere else. So you have to think, I’m going to pitch this to a major publication.

where she couldn’t give it to another public. All right. I see we be without those assets review. Indeed. You know the long area that I had was a.

case scenario was a giant poo.

had a home that they shot on their behalf, was a

that did not submit, someone else submitted it on a 100 % fine, and it got picked up for a Christmas issue. This was fall, it was Christmas. It went into the next year, it got shot, and showed up Christmas that next year. So it was 18 months where they could use nothing.

of one year went through that

in the fall of the following year.

nearly

from it. Wow. We have to remember that they

There is absolutely no guarantee that

even when you get to that point, for some reason or another. So you’re sitting on tenterhooks.

that it’s not going to get pulled.

that whole time. just have to be prepared that you say, that’s what I’m willing to do. And was very

to do and it was successful for them and it helped them immensely.

with them about it later there were a lot of questions about whether or not they could

go through that a similar cycle.

ever again.

OK. So you did touch on. If you don’t hear back or maybe if you get a decline message from something that you have pitched, but because not every pitch is going to land right, so. Do you have just some tips on? mean, in this world we’re so busy and it’s easy to kind of like get bummed out about things. So how can designers bounce back from either?

the silence from the editors or that rejection, know, what’s that mindset that we need to maintain as we are going through the media pitching process?

Once again, all that you really have to remember is it’s not about you. It’s about what this time for this particular issue, their readers want. So don’t get personally in that if you possibly can’t not about you. It’s

The thing

this editor app.

to see.

It’s really,

an opportunity.

opportunity then to go, well that did for that particular location. It works for something else. What else can we go?

work particularly public. But maybe we’re with it.

that’s also where someone like you, you know, a PR specialist would be able to kind of help guide you to that. you pitch this on your own. Like, what if we went and tried these three different media outlets to try the pitch because of these reasons?

Absolutely. you know, maybe what you do is instead of giving all of it to one publication, you know, maybe you’ve sat, waited for months to hear back and they’ve led you on a little bit with, to you soon. you know, it’s, okay, well, maybe what we do is we break it up too. Maybe there’s something that we, a certain kind of publication,

what you

you know,

Maybe something wonderful we can talk about or a certain with certain rooms here. can other room or other design thoughts or other perspectives.

give other rooms other space.

And so you give yourself other opportunities with it or it’s perfectly okay to

say.

I’m put this on my website. I’m ready. It’s phenomenal. I know it’s wonderful and I’m going to keep up with it.

going to take but that’s a percent fine too.

Okay, so one of my last questions for you and you know, I’m always interested in this incredible industry of the home furnishings business. I think that it’s filled with some of the kindest, sweetest, smartest people that are out there, especially as entrepreneurs. But what do you see as the future for PR in our interior design industry? Do you see that there’s

any kind of emerging trends or shifts in how designers should approach their publicity in the next few years.

Yes. things are going to change. They have started through the last five or six years and I don’t think that those trends are going to change.

Be prepared.

change pretty dramatically in a few years.

I think we are seeing fewer and

print publications, for those of us who you know, who love to hold publications in and share sheets and all of those sorts of things are going to continue and change.

these beautiful things that are through them and things you to morph change there

Things are also going to continue to change on becoming even more fragmented online and where you should be should present yourself in your business case online. So what does that look

the line thing. It’s

and how you

like we are.

constantly dealing with, you know, are there opportunities?

where you can get credible.

coverage that doesn’t require.

for people to be behind a paywall. The question is how democratic?

You know, the question here is little d, by the way, democratic. Do you want to be in, your publications? and that’s just a question that you need to answer for yourself. And then what of your own, own media and all of this, is.

What’s the role of media? think it’s important to be able to stories. For example, was talking to some designers earlier. We’re talking about how expensive is to create really beautiful photography that you might use for this whole conversation of how to do that and what do you do with it? Those sorts of things.

I think,

pitching publications and how long do you sit on it?

And my point is that oftentimes now it more advantageous to you both from a business standpoint.

Maybe.

on a financial standpoint to put out their own platforms and really going ahead.

these things on your own.

leverage that and instead of going and having to do a publication and saying, will you please do this for me because that’s essentially what we’re doing in a pitch is to create so much dynamic demand in doing that editors and journalists and freelancers and others come to you and say, how would you give us some of this? it flips the script a little bit. I think we’re seeing

for being what you’re.

what you are doing on your own site.

So I think a lot more of that in a lot detail.

industry.

Well, done this has been so informative about just media opportunities and publicity and PR and all of the things. I mean, I know that we all want to be published at some point in our career.

or we’re really excited about a job that we just landed that we know is going to be magazine worthy. So thank you so much for your guidance with all of my questions too. But what are three takeaways that you’d like to share with our listeners today from our conversation?

and how public.

it is understand publicity works within your particular goals for you and your business. Don’t get started. Really go into it in advance and then leverage the dickens out of

about it but with open eyes. Prepare to do all the work that you need.

of it when it happens.

Well, thank you so much for joining us. I always appreciate our time together. We’re excited to share this with our listeners and we’ll be sure to make sure they have the information to contact A New Day, your company, and follow you along over on Instagram and keep up with what’s crackleacking over there. And I can’t wait to, gosh, it’s just probably a few weeks, it feels like away.

of when we’ll be in High Point next and I’ll be tromping around High Point with you.

Absolutely. Erin, thank you so very much for this opportunity. I really do appreciate it.

Thanks Don for joining Aaron on the podcast and for sharing actionable tips about PR and marketing that can help designers promote their businesses. We hope you took away a helpful tidbit from this episode and join us next week for another as we continue season 13 of the Creative Genius podcast.

Are you running your interior design business, or is it running you? Between managing clients, tracking expenses, handling purchasing, and keeping up with tax filings, the financial side of an interior design firm can be overwhelming. But what if you could streamline your processes and free up time to focus on what you do best: designing beautiful spaces?

In this episode of the Creative Genius Podcast, host Erin Weir sits down with Corey Greenburg, Director of Sales and Marketing at DesignerAdvantage, to discuss the essential financial systems that interior designers need to succeed. With over a decade of experience helping designers optimize their bookkeeping, purchasing, and business operations, Corey shares valuable insights into how designers can run a more profitable and efficient business.

Corey shared a wealth of knowledge about running your business, including bookkeeping. “The key is to have a system, and that system may look different for every designer out there, but you need to establish that strong system and stick to it.” Corey emphasizes that whether you use QuickBooks, Studio Designer, or another software, consistency is crucial. From falling behind on bank reconciliations to neglecting sales tax filings, Corey outlines the most common financial missteps and how to avoid them.

Corey also discussed:

To book a call with Corey, you’ll find his calendar link here.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s13e2-shownotes

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Well, Cory, thank you so much for being with us today. Welcome to the Creative Genius Podcast.

That’s my pleasure to be here. Thanks so much, Aaron.

Yeah, so why don’t we just get started with you just telling a little bit about yourself and your company and what you guys do for interior designers.

Yeah, I’d be happy to. And it’s such an honor to be with you guys today. I think there’s a lot of need in the industry for designers to get more data and just best practices. So I love what you guys are doing and it’s great to be with you. I am the Director of Sales and Marketing at Designer Advantage. I’ve been with the company for 10 and a half years and our mission is to really help designers run a great business. We understand.

how difficult the interior design industry is and how difficult of a business it is to run. So, you we provide bookkeeping and purchasing services for designers and we’ve been doing it for 25 years. So Mark Malinsky is our founder and CEO. He has a CPA, his mother is a really talented artist and that’s how he got into the industry. had some connections through his mom and, you know, just kind of realized, like I said, how difficult the business is to run. it’s, as you know, it’s kind of a,

perfect storm with creative thinkers trying to run really difficult businesses. So that’s where we come in. We work with a few hundred designers across the country, but we’re based out of Boston. And that’s where I live and where I grew up as well.

Awesome. Well, I’m jealous of the Boston situation. I’d like to be there a little bit more often.

Yeah, don’t.

Don’t be too jealous in the winter, it gets-

So Cory, interior designers often juggle multiple projects at once. There’s thousands of details in every single project that we are working on. How do, how can they maintain clear and organized financial records without getting overwhelmed with all of the other details that they’re dealing with? I think sometimes the books might be not the main focus.

Yeah.

It’s such a good point and a great question. think, I mean, the key is to have a system and that system may look different for every designer out there, but you need to establish that strong system and stick to it. And if you trust that process, it’s going to work for you. There are a lot of different softwares out there that designers can use to help stay organized. mean, Studio Designer, House Pro.

QuickBooks, we have our own software called Designer Link, but having a software, having a system that you and your team members are comfortably using is so, important. And then, know, some specifics too, just to help stay organized. There are things that we see, you know, by managing the books for designers, there are things that we see that designers sometimes forget to do. And, you know, one of the biggest things is making sure that every single expense that you have is linked to a project.

So you should be enter everything that you enter, everything that you enter into your system that is project related. You need to tag it to that specific project to help stay organized. But, you know, just having that standard system, that standard process really helps designers stay on on tax. Because like I said before, it’s so complicated, this business. You know, you’re essentially running a furniture store with all the purchasing and then you’re also a consultant with your design expertise. So, you know, there’s a lot of moving pieces.

Yeah, you know, I guess as I think about, I know there’s so many different systems and software is that you can use and as I always think about it’s like kind of how I think about spaces is walking through a floor plan. I basically grew up on studio designer and Gail’s residential interior design business. We actually had a designer and desktop at the time. And so that is how I think about it. I know there’s other ways to do it as well. But yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. There’s a lot of options. I think sometimes I talk with a designer who usually smaller firms and they’re trying to manage everything just in Excel or just using Word docs for their proposals and purchase orders. And I just want to pull my hair out because I know there’s a better way to do it and people get stuck in their ways. And I understand that. It’s you get used to your own way of doing things. You don’t want to change it.

There are better ways to do it and the most successful designers have that system, that software that they’re operating.

Well, I mean, we were not even in a process webinar yesterday and designers were talking about, mean, not everybody uses an Asano or a click up, you know, they’re still using their spreadsheets and don’t get me wrong, I have a lot of different spreadsheets that I use in business too, but it was just these you could see these light bulbs popping up of like, gosh, I could get this out of a spreadsheet and into a system. And so, yeah, it would be great to do that with your books as well.

Yeah, without a doubt. mean, we’ve been doing this for a long time and we used to work out of Google Docs. Like there has to be a way for a designer to transfer their item specifications, their details onto a proposal and how we used to work, it was a very manual labor intensive process. And I think there are still a lot of designers operating that way. But when we created our software and when Studio Designer has really taken

Advancements. It’s those systems. Those softwares have helped designers streamline the process and reduce time spent on administrative tasks. That’s what the softwares really are there to do.

Awesome. Okay, well, so let’s get back over to interior designers and bookkeeping mistakes. What are some of the most common bookkeeping mistakes that you see interior designers making and how can they avoid them to ensure smoother financial operations inside of their business?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you know, bookkeeping is scary to a lot of designers. And so, you know, the number one mistake that we see is getting behind on the bookkeeping. know, once you’re a month behind on your bank and credit card reconciliations, it’s almost like, I’m behind, I don’t even want to think about it. I get nervous thinking about it. And then you’re two months behind and then you’re three months behind. And it’s really dangerous if you fall behind on your bank and credit card reconciliations because

Now your reporting is not accurate. can’t look at your books and draw any conclusions on how profitable your projects were or are you making enough profit margin on these billing rates that you currently have. falling behind is a dangerous slope to be on. That applies to bank and credit card reconciliations. It also applies to sales tax filing. So most, if not all, interior designers

have a resale certificate. They’re resellers of product. And so it falls on them to file and pay sales tax each month to the state, which is, it’s risky if you fall behind on that. We’ve seen designers get audited. And if you don’t stay on top of the sales tax filings, that can be really dangerous too.

Yeah, I even in our own business, I’m I’m required. We use abacus and you know I’m required certain moments of the month to reconcile what’s on my credit card and it’s so that when we’re coming into meeting where I want to understand where we’re at on the numbers that we are at a spot where we understand where we’re at in real time instead of like, well that was two months ago and you know that that would be a slippery slope to be on for sure.

Okay, so as we approach tax season, that’s a thing right now. What key financial details should designers be keeping track of throughout the year to avoid any surprises when they’re filing their taxes? I know that that can be a little tricky because you’ve got years that you have really huge projects and a lot of deposits and transactions that are coming through and then you might have some lighter moments of the year as well.

Sure, yeah, and this goes along with what we were just talking about, how important it is to stay up with the books on a monthly basis, because if you fall behind, again, you’re just setting yourself up to fail. So something that we do with our bookkeeping, when there are expenses, when we’re reconciling, if we don’t know what they are, we book them to an account called uncategorized expense, which a lot of business owners may be familiar with. We’re really sticklers about clearing out those uncapped charges every month.

So, know, when it’s tax season at the end of the year, if you have a full year of un-cat expenses that you have to go through, it’s a daunting task and you really need to categorize all of your expenses before you hand those books over to your CPA to file the income taxes. I can’t stress enough the importance of going through each month and categorizing every charge so it doesn’t build up and your CPA isn’t confused when they go to look at your books at the of the

So

Right well and I’m sure that is very costly and time and dollars when you’ve got to sit down and figure it out at the end of the year.

Yeah, yeah. And the other thing that we’re going through right now with a lot of our designers is 1099 filing. you know, that it goes along with taxes and, know, as a designer, you’re working with a lot of contractors and they are required. It’s required that you send them a 1099. so keeping track of their payments throughout the year and keeping track of who is eligible to receive a 1099 can reduce the stress of managing that. just, you know, the forms were actually due to be sent out to vendors today, January 31st. And so

It’s not a long period of time that you have. It’s really just January to compile all of those vendors and get the form sent out. So 1099s is another, it’s another tax monster that, know, business owners have to deal with.

Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about mindset. So what mindset shifts should an interior design business owner make around the financial management and the bookkeeping of their business? And how can they begin to view financials as really a tool for long-term success and their long-term strategy rather than just a tactical daily task?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can’t tell you how many designers I’ve spoken with over the years who they tell me they’re really good at the creative side, but they’re afraid of the financial side. And it’s just, it’s just such a common issue in the industry. And, you you’re not alone if you, if you’re out there and you’re experiencing that kind of fear, it is a complex business to run, like I’ve said over and over. But what’s, what’s really important is if you run the business right, interior design can be extremely profitable.

It’s, there’s a lot of opportunities to succeed if you’re running the business right. So keeping those books up to date allows you to analyze your numbers. It’s really, if you’re good at the bookkeeping or if you hire someone who’s good at the bookkeeping, it’s an opportunity to increase your profits because you can look at your, when you finish a project, if you have good books, you can look at that project P &L and see where you did well.

can see where there are opportunities to increase the profits or reduce expenses for that project. So we try to think of bookkeeping as an avenue for more opportunities to succeed in your business.

Well, I we certainly have a lot of designers that come to us and you know they might be a 10 out of 10 on financials and they might be a 2 out of 10 on financials and we still go over the same information. So everybody’s on the same page because it’s it’s just a muscle that you can build over time and really be more informed of what’s going on in your business. So you know at pro collective we have a financial master class that we offer about once a quarter.

And it’s amazing how many designers like continue to show up quarter after quarter on that because they’re just kind of chipping away at that muscle of really having a better understanding. And I’ve been in rooms with our boardroom members where all of a sudden a light bulb moment goes off during their VIP experience and they’re like, Oh my God, I got it. Like, I understand this now. So definitely a big fan of teaching people how to use their balance sheet and their PNL and to be getting that out often.

because it’s valuable tools for understanding what’s going on in your business.

Yeah, and I think you guys get such a big audience because there’s such a lack of education out there. And a lot of designers are not taught this information in interior design school. They leave design school, better designers, but they don’t know how to run a business. that’s not to speak for all designers, but a lot of them, they’re looking for guidance, they’re looking for support. And I think that’s why you guys have built up such a nice following.

Definitely. Okay, well, time management is definitely critical for, I mean, for everyone, but specifically designers, because they’ve got so much on their plates. So what are some practical tools or methods that you recommend to help track billable hours efficiently and accurately? I know I have been through so many different conversations with designers about all the different ways that they could track their time. You know, some of it’s manual, some of it’s on an app, some of it’s automated.

And it just is fine, know, kind of trying to help find that like practice and that habit that’s best for you. So what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, mean, time tracking is one of the biggest pain points that designers experience. And it’s a shame because hourly billing is a great way to make profit. you know, it’s not, there’s not a one size fits all billing structure. You know, we’ve seen a lot of successful designers billing flat fees. We’ve seen a lot of successful designers billing hourly. If you can bill hourly and you’re good at managing your time, it’s a great way to do it. But, you like you said, Aaron, it’s hard to find the time to actually sit down and log your hours.

There are a few softwares out there that we’ve seen designers use that we recommend. I Harvest is a great time tracking tool that a lot of our clients use. There’s an app, there’s a stopwatch, you can use it while you’re on a job site. But the other tip that I have is just really setting aside, maybe it’s 10 minutes a day or it’s 15 minutes a week on Friday to enter your time, but have…

Bye.

time set aside to enter those hours. You’re not gonna remember to do it unless you actually set time aside to

Right well and I’m a big fan too of time blocking and just having the blocks of time up on your calendar and you can just open up that block of time and type in what you did. But I mean there are so many different ways to go about it. It’s just finding that right way that you know you’re going to get done on a daily basis for sure.

And the other thing is like, don’t let the perfect or don’t let the yeah, what is it? Don’t let the perfect ruin the good or don’t let you

Yeah.

Yeah, so when you’re sitting down to enter your hours, like, it doesn’t matter if you spent 20 minutes or 25 minutes on a task, like just use one, you know, you’re wasting more time thinking about how much time you spent on those tasks to, you know, try to save yourself time when you’re going to enter the.

Well, and it’s so important to be able to look at the end of the day or the, I guess, the end of the quarter or the end of the month of like the billable hours versus the non-billable hours. Like, okay, let’s look at these non-billable hours and see like, is, there, there are efficiencies that are lacking or there are processes that need to happen in the business? Was there just a lot of errors, which is also like probably a process driven thing. And then also being to able to help understand when you can bring in the time billing.

not just the time billing, the time tracking of your business, really being able to start seeing the trends of the utilization and the efficiency of your team members. So then you can see what areas of your business might have a little leak or a hole that needs plugging or, know, re-situated with some training and some processes.

Yeah, you nailed it. mean, it’s what we do for a lot of our designers is help them set goals for how much time they should be billing, how much time their employees should be billing, and then auditing those goals. Every month we do a time billing analysis report for our designers. we recommend every designer out there should do this, where they’re looking at what percentage of time they’re billing to clients, what percentage of time their employees are billing to clients.

You know, the goal that we set for a lot of designers is billing 80 % of project related time back to clients. And so, you you can incentivize employees to hit those thresholds, but it’s a pretty significant impact on your bottom line if you’re hitting at least 80 % of the time being billed out to clients.

So for interior designers, purchasing products for clients can be a complicated process, especially in the last several years of all the different shipping delays and just delays in general. So what are some of the most common pain points that interior designers face in this area and how they can really simplify or streamline it?

Yeah, I mean, this is a big one because purchasing is hard. it’s like I said before, these designers are essentially running a furniture store where they’re buying and selling product. there are so many steps that go into it. And the end client, a designer’s client, does not understand, it’s not intuitive how many steps go into managing the purchasing. We have a document that shows the individual steps that go into managing one custom item.

And it’s 106 steps, 106 possible steps to go into the per per thing of one custom item. It’s insane. so, you know, there’s, there’s a lot that goes into it because sometimes a vendor can charge as each item ships and maybe there’s five items on a purchase order. And so you’ve got, and then they’re charging a deposit and then a balance due. So there’s like, you know, 10 charges on this one order.

And then one item comes in damaged and one item is delayed and you need to reselect that item. It’s just a perfect storm. There are so many issues with purchasing. So it’s really, really important to status and track these orders properly. So everyone has their own system of how they do that. Again, there’s a lot of good order status and order tracking software out there that designers can use, but

staying on top of it and being proactive with how you manage those orders is so key. mean, don’t wait for the vendor to come to you to tell you that something’s off. Follow up with the vendors regularly to make sure that lead times haven’t changed, to make sure that everything is still on track with that order so that way when something does go wrong, you know of it right away and you can react accordingly.

So speaking of vendors, strong relationships with our vendors is crucial to navigating the purchasing process, right? So what are some areas of advice that you could share for building and maintaining the relationships with your vendors?

Yeah, I I think it’s a mindset at the end of the day. You know, it’s how you treat them as people and treating them as partners as opposed to just suppliers is really how a designer should be thinking about their relationships with their vendors. Because without the vendor, without that partnership with your vendor, there is no finished product. You’re not delivering the project to your client. And being loyal to vendors is key, too. Once you find vendors that are good, that deliver

Good product, they have good customer service. Your clients are happy with the product. Be loyal to them, go back to them. I it can help you get better pricing if you get into better tiers with vendors, obviously, but it just helps with the relationship overall and can help you down

And I mean, I think the vendors are also just they’re part of the heartbeat of the industry, right? So if you’re ever looking to hire, they’re usually probably a good person to run that job description by and see if they know of anybody that’s interested in being hired as well. that’s another great resource. OK, so with all the different fluctuating costs and unexpected delays that we have to deal with on a daily basis, how can designers best manage budgets?

and client expectations so that they’re ensuring that they don’t go over budget, but they’re still delivering the quality service that their clients expect.

Yeah, I mean, think this is where this is where communication skills come in. So so huge for designers is having that conversation with the client up front. I’m sure you agree. mean, any relationship, any new partnership that you guys have, you want to talk to them up front and just lay out what the expectations are. This is you know, this is what we’re planning to do with you. But let them know up front that the nature of this business is that things change, you know, keeping keeping your budgets.

flexible. A lot of designers find that’s the best way to do it because it’s, you you give them a range, know, your end client needs to know what they’re expecting to pay, but just letting them know, you know, we’ve seen in our experience that these costs can increase by X percent. know, setting that expectation upfront that it’s a fluid budget, that it’s not set in stone can help down the line. And I’m sure you’ve seen experiences or examples like that too.

Yeah, for sure. Okay, so great. Many designers wear multiple hats. I mean, we I hear it all day long in our VIP experiences. Multiple hats are their husbands, wives, mothers, fathers. They’re the CEO. They’re also the main salesperson. They’re also the main designer. There’s a lot of different hats that they wear. The outsourcing certainly can be a game changer, especially in a small business. So what are some of the areas of

An interior design business that designers should could or should consider outsourcing to kind of gain an edge in the industry.

Yeah, I mean, like you said, a designer has a limited number of hours in their day, and especially those that are billing their time to their clients. are hours are precious. You know, every minute that you have available to you is a potential billable minute to your client. spending those hours and those minutes on mundane administrative low hourly billable tasks is not the best use of time for a business owner. So

I think a lot of designers have success when they realize what they’re good at and they realize what they’re not so good at and they delegate those tasks that they’re not so good at to someone else. Outsourcing, bookkeeping, accounting, procurement, social media management, marketing, consulting, obviously, a lot of those are things that a business owner either isn’t great at or an interior designer isn’t great at or doesn’t want to spend their time doing. obviously, I don’t mean

this to be self-fulfilling because we are an outsourced purchasing manager. So it’s easy for me to say. But with that, we see the direct results of how we’ve helped designers over the years refocus their time and energy on design and what they love. it helps, honestly, helps the overall quality of life if you’re focusing on what you love to be doing. And managing client relationships is another big thing that designers find they don’t have the time to do because they’re doing the bookkeeping or they’re

following up with a vendor and managing a damage claim, they can’t give enough love to their clients. it’s very much a referral-based business. if you can’t give love to your clients, they’re not going to speak highly of you to someone else who you could get the potential job from.

Right well I mean if you think about it this way if you let’s say you’re an interior designer and your rates $200 an hour. You could be spending $200 an hour run to the bank or to run you know things back to the design center or you could be paying somebody that’s maybe. 25 $30 an hour to be doing some of those tasks and you could actually be charging for their time as well so it’s gonna help you make money.

Either way, always when I start thinking about things that I need to get off of my plate to, you know, step into the next phase of where I need to be and where my team can help is really looking at the things that I don’t like that I’m not good at. That’s a pretty easy list. And then the things that maybe I like, but someone else can do better is definitely or, you know, I like them, but I’m not necessarily good at them.

That’s a great place to start for sure and trying to figure out where to outsource.

Yeah, yeah, totally. And just really quickly, one of the keys that you mentioned there is when you do outsource tasks to someone, make sure you’re billing a designer is most successful when they build those tasks back to their client. So, you know, if you’re outsourcing procurement, you would have billed your client for the procurement time if you were doing it or if your employer was doing it. So if you’re outsourcing it to someone else, make sure that you’re billing that to your client as well.

And it’s how you cover the cost of it. Ideally, you’re billing your client at a lot higher rate than what you’re paying the outsourced company to do the work. So you’re making a profit.

On the topic of outsourcing, while that can be a significant investment in the time and dollars, what kind of return on investment should designers expect from delegating certain tasks or responsibilities to external experts?

Mm-hmm

Yeah, I mean, on average for designers, I can speak to our own outsourced services. mean, on average, a client sees an increase of 15 to 25 percent in net income after year one by outsourcing, bookkeeping and procurement, especially if they are billing that time back to the client. Like I said, that’s that’s the key to increasing, increasing profit there. But there is so many unquantifiable.

returns by outsourcing too. And most of it is the time savings that you’re getting as a business owner. You’re clearing your head space. You’re no longer stuck in the weeds of the administrative work. You’re able to actually think about big picture business related tasks. You can take on an extra project. You can scale and grow the business. So there’s a lot that you can benefit by getting some of those tasks off of your plate.

Well, and when it comes to outsourcing, it really can be such a gamut, right? It can be the bookkeeping, the procurement. It also could be a much larger role of like a fractional C level person, like a fractional CFO or a fractional CMO. So there, I mean, there is a huge gamut of different people that have those strengths and the time to do it and are probably a lot better at it than the designers so that they can get back to running the design business and really doing that.

that beautiful work that they’re here for.

Yeah, without a doubt. I think, you know, hiring employees and growing your internal business is great, but it’s expensive. And there are certain roles that you want to fill internally, that you want to hire an employee for. But there are also certain roles that it just, you can get similar quality and a similar result at a lot lower cost by outsourcing it. So there’s a big cost savings to it and typically a higher ROI by outsourcing certain tasks, like you said.

for better ol-

So this is a little bit of a random question that just popped in my head. know that designers are very particular about how they like things done. most come from the mold of a perfectionist or a recovering perfectionist. What are some of the ways that you help them through those fears of when they’re deciding to work with you?

Yeah, I mean, most designers, like you said, are they’re perfectionists. mean, there’s a

want it done right and they know who they’re serving and so yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, in a lot of ways, we’re the same way where you kind of have to be a perfectionist to manage the books and manage the purchasing because we honestly believe that anything less than 100 % accuracy on on books on bookkeeping and on purchasing is not acceptable. you know, but but at the same time, it is a high paced industry. So designers speed is really important.

you know, getting an order placed quickly is really important because there are lead times that you’re up against. are deadlines for projects. There are installation dates that you need to meet. So you sometimes have to say, is 98 % better than 100 % if it’s happening, you know, exponentially faster than what the 100 % would have been. You know, for everyone, that’s a different, it’s a different calculus.

If you can get 100 % accuracy with the top speed, which is what we aim for, then that’s great. But you know yourself best and sometimes, know, sometimes sacrificing a small level of quality to make sure that speed is as high as it can be. It’s hard to accept that, but it’s important sometimes to do.

Yeah, my one of my business coaches always says like speed to lead is what you always need to have top of mind whether it’s a lead coming in a brand new person coming in or someone that’s ready to purchase and and say yes, like I’m ready. I’m ready for that. So if I’m ready for the whole room, let’s do it. It’s so important. So what are some of the common mistakes designers make when outsourcing and how can they avoid those so that when they’re outsourcing they really

have found a successful partnership in that.

Yeah, I mean, you similar to what I said earlier about how you have to treat vendor relationships as as partnerships. Any outsourced company that you’re working with is technically a vendor, you know, and and they’re also a partner of yours. So obviously treating them with respect and having an open channel of communication with them is going to be so important. mean, we’ve dealt with designers again, we’ve been doing this for 25 years, so we’ve dealt with the best designers and we’ve dealt with the work designers and.

the worst relationships that we’ve had are the ones that don’t treat us with respect. know, we are, our goal is to help our clients. Like at the end of the day, we’re a referral based business too. And most outsource companies, you know, they want to help their clients succeed. And so if they’re not being treated with respect, that’s just not going to create, you know, a positive relationship there. So I think having that open channel of communication is, super important. And also having some flexibility when you’re outsourcing to it, to a company,

You have your own set ways of doing things. Everyone is stuck in their ways. Everyone likes how they’re doing things. But clearly, if you’ve made the decision to outsource to someone, it means that you’re looking to improve. So take their advice into account. They may have a better way of doing things. And you don’t have to take all of their advice into account. But be flexible. Be open to their suggestions. Because at the end of the day, that’s why you’re outsourcing. That’s why you’re hiring someone else to help with these tasks. Because they’re experts in that field.

Yeah, and I think, you know, for the longest time, I had a sticky note on my computer screen that said delegate the outcome, not the task to remind myself that like, listen, you don’t have to prepackage every project perfectly for somebody as long as you know what it is and it’s that the outcome that you want. And obviously there’s quality standards around it. They’re going to probably have a more efficient, better way, smarter way of going about it than maybe what you originally had planned. So.

I think that’s key too when it comes to outsourcing.

Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And I just think the best leaders out there are ones who know their own shortcomings, their own weaknesses, and they’re willing to admit that they need help on certain things. Like nobody is an expert in every area. you know, finding out what you’re not an expert at and finding people who are experts in that field, that’s how you succeed.

Okay, so still on the topic of outsourcing, how can outsourcing help interior designers scale their businesses and take on more projects without compromising that quality, the quality that they’re producing or their personal time even. I know I’ve got a lot of designers that come through our programs that are especially their working moms, they’re feeling really guilty about the amount of time they’re having to spend to build their business and the lack of time that they’re getting with their kids at that moment.

And that’s just one version of the guilt factor that can happen of not having enough personal time for the rest of their life as well.

Yeah, I mean, again, so many designers I speak with where they are trying to free up time so they can focus on their business, but also, you know, maybe they just had a kid or they have, you know, they have personal things that they want to focus on or their mother or father is sick and they need to help take care of them. You know, everyone has something in their personal life and nobody has enough time in their personal life to focus on, focus on what they what they need to. So.

Again, outsourcing can help you free up time for your business, but also free up mental capacity and personal time to focus on at the end of the day what truly matters to you. But you also talked about scaling your business and how outsourcing can help with that. And I think that’s one of the biggest benefits to getting things off of your plate is that you can now take on a new project. So you as a business owner should never be in a position where you have to turn away a good project. If something comes along that

Is going to help you you should have the capacity to take that project on that’s honestly that’s what we do is we help create capacity for designers. There’s a designer that I work with that I’ve been working with for 10 years and when we started working with her she was doing 300,000 in annual revenue and this past year she did 10 million in annual revenue so you know just she realized.

I don’t need to be doing the administrative tasks. She outsourced it. She outsources other things too. She outsources marketing, she outsources all sorts of other tasks, but it allowed her to become a rock star in the client relationship, client management area of her business. once you get one or two big projects, then there’s a waterfall and you start to get the other big ones. But having that space available to you is key to help scale.

Love that. I love that. think outsourcing too can also help the owner of the business really with that space and time to become the CEO of their business, right? So, you know, if you can get out of those daily tasks or those tactical admin tasks or the bookkeeping tasks, it also allows you to free up some time to think, like have some thinking time, be able to work.

on your business on a weekly basis instead of just in your business. Any billable time, I am all about that and that needs to be happening. But also if you want to always come back to your bigger vision of what you’re building, you’ve got to be able to work towards that on a daily basis and not just be in the daily grind all the time. So yeah, big fan.

I think we’re off.

It’s great advice and I think we’re all guilty of that. I have to remind myself daily to get out of the weeds because I could put my head down for eight hours in a day and I could just go to town and I wouldn’t, I would get my tasks completed, but nothing big picture would get completed. And, you know, so many business owners are in the same exact boat where you have so much on your plate and you could sit down for 12 hours in a day and not even finish all of those tasks.

But you need to set time aside to think about big picture your business and make, like you said, those CEO level decisions. outsourcing is a great way to free up time to make those kind of thoughts and decisions.

Well, and was having a conversation with my business coach today. I was a little in the weeds this morning, if you will. And we were talking about, you know, when you have those goals that are set for the year or for the quarter and you have those initiatives that you’re working towards that you can be chipping away off on a daily basis, weekly basis, even if it’s just a little bit of time each week that you’re chipping towards those. That’s the framework that you can come back to when an opportunity comes in saying,

Oh, heck yes, like I’m ready. Like we’re going to take that because we know it. It jives with these goals and initiatives that we’re working towards for the business for the year. Or you can go, oh, that’s awesome. And I want to learn more about it. And now is not the right time. Or I know that we could start that in the second quarter or maybe the last half of the year. And so that’s when getting out of the busyness and the chaos.

It’s helpful to actually be able to have those goals really set in place and go, you know what this actually is. I can see that this is going to help me towards my bigger vision of what I’m building here. And, and that’s not to say that you’ve got to scale your business from zero to a zillion in five seconds. Not everybody wants to have, a big company. You want to keep it small and still make a really great net profit. That’s totally possible.

Whereas other people really want to build out the teams and the extra locations and all of those things. So there’s no wrong answer, but you’ve got to be able to take that time to think about your business. And that’s one of my favorite things about our VIP experience is that we set you down and you’ve got to think on your business. We got to talk about the vision. We got to talk about why you’re here and what your goals really are. So then we can work backwards and really making that business what.

it can become to feel that lifestyle that you’re seeking. So really.

as much.

It’s a very personal decision. We don’t know, you and I don’t know where someone is at in their life, whether they want to grow their business or what they want to grow their business to. But I think it’s pretty universal. Everyone wants to be as profitable as possible, whether you’re a small business or a large business. finding the time to focus on the business is so important. And it’s funny, I was talking to my wife about this yesterday, actually, just like with time management, how with every day you have

big daunting tasks and then you’ve got a million small little tasks. And I always try to get the million small little tasks done before attacking the big daunting task. But the big daunting task is then hanging over my head all day. And so we were talking about it like, why don’t we just do that task first? It’s more important anyways, why don’t we get that task done first and then focus on the smaller million tasks. it’s because I’m addicted to my email and I wanna keep my email down.

I don’t what it is, but…

But I think a lot of people struggle with that. It’s finding the time to focus on that big task and getting it done first.

I think so too. Well, one of our favorite books here at Pearl Collective is Eat the Frog and that means you do those big harder things first when you’re fresh in the morning and just you can work, you have more time to work through them, right? And it’s easy to keep putting it off and putting it off and usually if you’re putting it off then that means like, you either don’t have the buy-in for the project or you don’t have the process for the project, right? And so what I try to do is do the big things first and then,

Only like allow for an hour of however many of the smaller tasks that I can fit into an hour. But I mean, that’s on a perfect day. I have days that it’s just all over the board and I have days that I’m time blocked out and I’m like, I’m totally kicking butt and so I understand. I was talking to my daughter about this the other day too. She’s a freshman in high school and I’ve been super impressed with how she’s managed her grades and like, you know, having more of a social life and she’s also an athlete and

And she’s getting ready to try out for her first high school sport. She’s been playing club sports this fall. And it was interesting because I was like, like, do you, at first she was like, mom, I don’t even have time for a boyfriend. So I’m like, awesome. Like this is good news. But then I was like, okay, so you’re talking about taking some AP classes next year and you’re going to be an athlete, like totally doable. want you to be pushed in all of those directions, but I also don’t want it to like.

Don’t sign up for too much either. And so we were having this really healthy conversation about it because she had a friend that was like, I’m doing all of the sports and I’m taking all the AP classes. And she’s like, that doesn’t even sound like fun or doable. And I’m like, well, it’s doable, but maybe you won’t grow quite as much at the, at the rate that you’re growing now. So, um, yeah.

Yeah, interesting. Interesting. Freshman year of high school. That’s a tough age to have.

It’s been good so far, you know, TBD, we’ll see.

Yeah.

I’ve got my first kid on the way, my first baby is due.

Congratulations Cory. They’re the best hardest thing I’ve ever done and my kids are 11 and 14 and very fun when they like figure what they’re good at and what they’re about and my son likes to golf and play football. My daughter plays soccer and they both like to ski so those are like activities like we like to do but we just also crack each other up and it’s fun to see personalities starting to come too.

I appreciate it.

Yeah, I mean, it’s funny, like a lot of the psychological things that we’re talking about today for a business owner, I feel like it’s going to apply to parenthood too. It’s just like they’re common life principles and there’s a lot of crossover.

I think it becomes very black and white when you’ve got a kiddo that you’re wanting to spend time with care for provider for right is your time becomes very I like to live in a gray world because I’m happier that way. But when it comes to that time it’s like I don’t want it seeping into you know all of it seeping into each other. It does some weekends it does some nights. But I think the more that you can have a plan in place to outsource

delegate, have some time blocking practices that you can really abide by and go, okay, these are the boundaries of my week and these are the boundaries of what I can do in an evening before I’m just ready to crash, you know, in a morning before I’m actually really able to talk to anyone. What’s required to get everybody out the door. So I’m super excited for you on that front. So Corey, as we finish out here,

I appreciate it. Thank you.

we always like to ask our guests to share three takeaways for our listeners. So they kind of have something they can take back to their business, their life, after they’ve listened to this and make happen.

Yeah, I think number one is that interior design is a very complicated, complex business to run. you’re not alone if you think that your business is hard to run because every designer is struggling with that. But if done properly can be a very profitable business. So, you know, for any designer out there listening, like you’re in a good industry. It’s there’s there’s a lot of money to be had. It’s a growing industry.

people are focusing on home furnishings and there’s a lot of money to be had. So if you can figure out the business side of it, you can really succeed and you can really grow. That’s number one. And I think number two, we talked a lot about this today. Finding the right partners for your business is key. know, acknowledging once you get to a certain size for your firm, acknowledging that you can’t do it all on your own. And so whether that be vendors, clients,

or like again, like we talked about a lot, outsourced solutions, finding those partnerships and nourishing those partnerships is key to success.

Love that.

Yeah, and I mean, the third one, I would say, again, we talked about this, but taking time out of your day, getting out of the weeds and just focusing on running the business, on the overall business operations, know, admire what you’ve accomplished. know, take a step back and look at what you’ve grown and, you know, admire and acknowledge the successes that you’ve had.

but also identify opportunities to grow. And the only way to do that is to actually look at and reflect on what you’ve done. If your head is down all day and you’re just knocking things out, there’s no time to reflect. And that’s really important as a business owner.

Agreed well Cory thank you so much for taking time out today to be with us and I know I certainly have some thoughts in my head about like things that I need to delegate and outsource more even on our business but excited to continue to work with you and and learn more about your business in the future.

Yeah, my pleasure. So great to be with you, Aaron. And I appreciate you taking the time. I appreciate these questions. Very thought provoking for myself too, even just talking through things today. I I have a different perspective on doing business, but yeah, I can’t thank you enough for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Why do some teams thrive while others struggle despite having talented individuals? The answer is often team culture. A strong, well-defined culture can make or break an organization, affecting not just performance but also employee engagement, accountability, and overall job satisfaction. But how do you create that kind of culture in your own business, and leverage it for business success?

In this episode of the Creative Genius Podcast, Gail Doby talks with team-building expert and leadership coach Sean Glaze. Sean shares his insights on what it takes to cultivate a winning culture, drawing from his experience as a basketball coach and now as a speaker and consultant. His practical, no-nonsense approach helps leaders build environments where their teams can thrive.

Sean Glaze started this path as a basketball coach, using culture to lead several programs to new heights of success. With two decades of experience creating stronger cultures in locker rooms, Sean is now a team-building speaker and works with organizations to solve their team issues. He earned his Bachelors Degree in English at Georgia Southern University then a Masters and Specialist Degrees from Jacksonville State University. He has written several books, some of which are linked in the resources below.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

Sean also discusses why founders and business owners need to reflect on their leadership style and ask themselves, “What part of my leadership led to that response or that behavior?” This question that can be a game-changer for those looking to improve team dynamics and performance.

If you’re a business owner, manager, or team leader looking to create a more engaged, high-performing workplace, this episode is packed with actionable insights you won’t want to miss.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s13e1-shownotes

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

For more leadership tips and strategies, follow Sean on LinkedIn.

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Creative Genius Podcast, Shawn. I just wanted to thank you again. came and spent a really wonderful session with our boardroom clients in September, and it was phenomenal. We really loved it. Everybody loved your session and walked away with lots of ah-hahs. So thank you for being here and being a part of it.

am absolutely thrilled to be back and to share with your audience and listeners. And hopefully I do make this a valuable experience for those who are joining us, whether it’s watching or listening.

Well, I have no doubt about that. So let’s just dive right in. And I want to talk about culture because this is a topic that I have lots of conversations with my clients about all the time. How important is that today to all businesses?

You know, and, as you know, and the people that were there at the amazing boardroom retreat that you guys put together, my background is as a basketball coach. so a lot of what I do now in working with organizations, whether it’s in, the industry where it’s, you know, kind of you design or whether it’s with medical or whether it’s with finance, ultimately teams or teams and people or people in the same issues we had in our locker room, people having with their teams.

And whether that’s hybrid, remote leadership and teams are still kind of based upon the same principles. And so culture is, what I completely neglected the first year that I had the opportunity to really be a leader. And I’d focused so much Gale on strategy. And obviously you need good people. You need to have talent. Talent’s essential, but it’s never sufficient. You got to have a good scheme. You got to have strategy. That’s what your people want to do. And what I learned that first year was that, you know, without culture,

to support your talent and your scheme. Ultimately, that talent and scheme gets sabotaged when you’re neglecting things that would have actually helped to support them. so culture, I’ll share, and obviously you’ve heard this once or twice before, culture is nothing more than the behaviors that are allowed and repeated in your organization, on your team. And it’s your job as a leader to realize there’s really five major areas of culture that you need to give attention to.

in order to make sure that you create an environment where those people and that strategy can really thrive and give yourself an opportunity to not just have success, but hopefully sustain success and the ability to scale as well.

Mm hmm. So the the five areas of culture, do you want to dive into that a little bit?

Yeah, I’ll go ahead and share that and that’ll maybe be the foundation of some of the rest of our conversation. I use the unbelievably simple and silly and cheesy acronym of great. If you want a great team, you need to focus upon the five vital areas of culture. The first is goals. You need to make sure that people understand why they’re there. You need to have that mission statement very, very clear of what it is you’re seeking to accomplish each day and where you’re going and who you’re serving.

The next is, you build relationships within your organization on your team? So you appreciate not just the people and the backgrounds and the personalities and the challenges and the desires of the people you’re working with, but do they feel that you actually have their best interest in mind that again, you’re always going to as a leader, you’re going to work harder than anybody else in your organization, but do they feel that you care about them and their path as well? so building relationships, what do you need to know about your people to get the best out of?

because not everybody’s gonna be the same, you’re not gonna treat everybody the same. The next is expectations. And I think that’s where, for the leaders that almost always do a pretty good job of identifying goals, and this is why we’re here, these are our metrics, this is what success is gonna look like. And then they will oftentimes, you know, at least give some attention or intentional time and resources to try and to build some connection and do some team building of some kind.

But oftentimes I see where a lot of leaders sometimes drop the ball is in that area of expectations. And do you really take time to clarify your values and the standards and the commitments that your team is going to operate under? And then after you establish those expectations, the A portion of that kind of great acronym is accountability, because it’s not a question of if, but when something happens that you need to address. And how do you do that effectively so that it’s not the defensiveness

or the kind of reactionary revolt that you don’t want that conversation to have when you are hopefully helping somebody to stay coachable. And then finally, do you take the time to really be intentional about thanking your people and making sure that they feel recognized for the effort that they’ve given. So those are kind of the five areas. And many leaders do a really good job with at least one or two or three.

But I found in the coaching conversations I’ve had and working even in conference settings that people come up, hey, I’m really good at X, Y, and Z, but I really needed to be reminded of blank because that’s an area that I’ve neglected. And I think that that sometimes is a key catalyst to seeing your team improve is realizing which of those five areas maybe hasn’t gotten the attention that it needs.

Well, there’s a good one here that I’d like to dive into a little bit deeper, which is accountability. And accountability is something that I hear a lot in the coaching that I do with clients, that they’re finding it hard to hold their people accountable and have them not just accountable for deadlines, but for accuracy and maybe their ability to provide great client service. So how do you get people to be accountable and how do you address the issue when they’re not?

I think that everything follows first the goal and then the relationship. And again, I used to make fun of the Tony the Tiger because you really need to focus on the grr before you get to the eight. Because if you haven’t really nailed home and really spent time and been intentional about clarifying goals and mission and roles and really being intentional about building those relationships where you establish trust and psychological safety across your team.

that those expectations and accountability conversations fall on deaf ears because you’ve not really taken the time to make people feel a part of something larger and more significant than themselves that they really feel valued as a contributor to. And so the idea of expectations, I think, is the next thing, obviously, in that kind of acronym where, yeah, you need to understand why this is important, how it serves our clients and our organization. But then.

If I as a leader, and again, a lot of times I go back to those basketball stories where I first picked up the idea of some of the leadership stuff. And if I’m holding a player accountable for doing something that, I wasn’t clear about the importance of it, or I wasn’t clear about how it needed to be done, and I didn’t do a great job teaching, then I was actually a really bad leader.

if I hadn’t done the job on the front end of clarifying the expectation and the urgency. And so a lot of times those conversations where I would, a really bad leader, I’d go in and I would, again, you start with the command and control, which is again, not a very good start to begin with. But I went from that to consequencing and complaining and criticizing, which just further exacerbated the bad relationship where those players wanted to kind of rebel.

And they really didn’t appreciate me as leader because I wasn’t leading in a very positive, productive way. And when I started to myself be more coachable, hey, how can I be a better leader to get those results that I want? My retention went up and my results went up when I went from the command to control and criticize and coerce to am I asking questions to really get a better sense of where they’re at? Because sometimes I would make assumptions. And I think that accountability really begins with empathy.

I think any accountability that your team shows is going to be because they care about someone or something that they want to make sure they live up to a standard and don’t let that person down, whether it’s a coworker or a client, it’s the empathy that they feel that drives that personal accountability. And so you want to build those relationships so that people don’t want to let each other down as team members. But you also want to make sure you build that expectation in terms of this is who we are. This is our reputation as a high end firm.

that we don’t ever want to let our clients down. We always want to over deliver and make sure that we’re delighting them because they’re getting more than they expected. And a lot of that comes back to clarifying those expectations and what needs to be done and how it needs to be done hopefully. And then the back end of that is them understanding when you do have that difficult conversation of, that’s not to our standard. That’s not going to be what we want to make sure that we allow.

because that becomes your culture, which you ultimately allow. Here’s how it needs to be done to make sure that we maintain this standard that we together set for ourselves in terms of those commitments that we’re gonna make about how we’re gonna go through. So Rin, I think that all accountability conversations start with the goals and relationships, but really it rests upon the idea of have you been clear with the expectations of the how and the why that makes it more meaningful?

Well, you brought up something I think is so important and I’ve learned that in my later years, is that you have to be the first one to take responsibility for the current results. And if the results are not what you want, then what is your part of that? What are you doing or not doing that is contributing to that lack of the result? And you have to look there because if you’re looking to blame your employees,

as a statement goes, fix the problem, not the blame. So if you want to get things done, then try to figure out what is it that is keeping this from happening? And is it me? Am I just not communicating well? Did I not hold people accountable? Like you said, did I not set expectations? Did I not say a set due dates and maybe what the outcome, what does good look like and what does finish look like? That some of those things, if you don’t.

talk about this with your team, then how in the world can you ever hold them to a standard?

And I think it’s not just as a team, but specifically on projects or when you’re delegating things to somebody to help them to grow. As you’re scaling, you want to make sure you take 10 members and turn them into leaders. And you do that by giving them responsibility, once they’ve shown that they desire and can live up to that responsibility. And I think that that goes back to, again, if I’m ever delegating, I need to be really clear about, like you said, what is the difference between good and great in terms of a finished product? And where am I going to in the future check in?

micromanaging, I want to trust you, but here are the places where I want to check in and make sure I’m providing the support you need and giving you some feedback to make sure that we end up with the same image at the end that we’re anticipating. And that was absolutely the key for me. My career as a speaker and trainer and coach began.

when I started to realize that that failure of my team was my failure as a leader. And it would have been very easy for me to have gone along and said, well, they’re not doing because they don’t care and they’re lazy and they’re this and they’re not. And ultimately, if it’s more than one or two people that aren’t doing something or they’re doing something that’s unproductive, it’s probably going to be the person who is their response before the culture. And again,

even when there is something, it may not necessarily always be your fault, but it’s absolutely as a leader, gonna always be your responsibility to address it. And one of the most powerful questions, and I know I shared this in the retreat as well, is if you’re a great leader, you’re gonna ask yourself questions. You’re gonna be introspective and reflect on. And one of the most powerful questions to ask you, what part of my leadership led to that?

what part of my leadership led to that response or that behavior by the person that I really believe is capable and smart and good and cares. So what is it that I can actually do so I’m better? And a lot of times that means I need to be more coachable and find a way that I can be better in my role. So I lift them up as well.

Well, those are really great tips and I love that question because again, as we just talked about how important it is for you as a leader to take responsibility for everything that comes out of your company, whether you like it or not, you’re responsible. starting there is a good idea. What are some of the biggest challenges that businesses are facing with building a strong culture today? And in this case, I’m probably referencing a little bit of the change in the mindset.

especially in the last few years after COVID, because things have changed quite a bit. And I think the structure and maybe the mindset of our employees has changed.

You know, it’s so interesting that you share it because I do, hear that a lot, Gail, and I’m not disagreeing because I do believe that a number of things have changed, the environment, the expectations sometimes, but I really believe in this. Again, I’m going to, you kind of look back at the basketball background for an analogy, but I think that ultimately winning in basketball comes down to who’s going to get the best shots, who’s going to do a better job of these very simple, fundamental things. And yeah, you can change.

the scheme and you’re going to play different ways. But ultimately, the same things that won games in the 70s or 80s or winning the games in the 2020s, because while talent has certainly increased and athleticism has increased, the idea of defending and I think that similarly, know, the the

taking care of the ball and getting the better shot, making sure that loudest the team that’s communicating the best is normally going to perform the best. I think those same things really translate over to team members and leaders. As much as things do change, I really believe that culture.

And that that desire that each of us have, each of the people that work with us have to want to be a small part of something larger than themselves, to want to feel like they’re doing meaningful work, to want to feel like they’re making progress and they’re making connections with people that they care about and care about them. I think those are things that have remained consistent. think sometimes it’s easy to get caught up by that shiny new object of what is new. And certainly there’s always going to be new technology and new shiny objects and distractions for us to, to,

kind of some, but I think that ultimately the things that made your business successful that you then share with people who now can use your coaching to make their businesses successful, I think those are going to remain consistent. There are things that are sometimes timeless in terms of leadership and teamwork. and regardless of some of the things that do change around us, I think that ultimately that idea of culture, you know,

The problem I think is sometimes we get distracted by what culture is. Culture isn’t foosball tables or snacks or time off. Culture is what are those behaviors that we allow and how does that make people feel because of those behaviors? And the more we can clean up those expectations and make sure we clarify the goals and we make people feel connected and we establish those expectations for values and standards and commitments. And we have those conversations where people feel like,

We’re actually on their side and helping them to be better so we as an organization can gather that much more respect. I think that’s what drives the results and retention that ultimately culture is responsible for.

Mm-hmm. What are some of the biggest mistakes that founders make in hiring and building a team?

Wow, I think that it is easy as a coach and as easy as a leader or as an owner to fall in love with technical skills and to neglect interpersonal skills. And I think when you’re having those interviews, giving your people a chance to spend some time with somebody as a team member and to get their perspective of how does this person fit in terms of their

character and their willingness to talk. There are so many other things that I think sometimes people are hired for technical skill and their specific talent or insight or expertise and they end up either being admired or fired because of the interpersonal skill that really

helps them to be successful with that technical skill. So as a leader, think oftentimes the onboarding process is something that maybe should sometimes take a little bit longer to make sure that that person’s a great fit in terms of the culture that you want. And I think that oftentimes, know, leave most often, you see this in all the research, people don’t leave an organization, they leave a bad leader. And I think that

Back to our question of what part of my leadership led to that, if we’re bringing somebody onto our team who’s not a great fit interpersonally, or who we’ve not done a great job of setting an expectation of, this is the culture here, this is how we go about things, this is what we find important, this is what we’re really gonna emphasize, and this is how we’re gonna work together. If we actually are really clear on the front end about what that’s gonna look like, oftentimes people will self-select and say, you know what, that’s not me.

But I think that it’s a hard conversation to have six months later of, you’re not a good fit because blank, if you’ve not been clear on the front end about what those expectations are going to be.

Mm-hmm. Well, yes, and absolutely we talk about that. It’s one of the very first things we do with people when they come to work with us is help them develop a culture statement for their company and identify the values of their culture.

and how they are going to evaluate people, whether they fit or don’t fit their culture. So it’s crucial in my opinion that we’ve got to have that top of mind every single day and your employees at some point must learn those words and not just learn those, but embody those words because embodiment of words is much more meaningful than just saying something.

I’m sure when you talk about values, and this is something I know I mentioned to you, that you are responsible for who you let into your locker room.

And you can sometimes fall in love with talent, but if it’s toxic talent, you’re sabotaging those that you’ve already helped to establish and tried to build trust with about what those standards are going to be. And if you allow somebody come in with what you think is going to be extraordinary talent that is not necessarily a great fit with the people around them, then you’re setting yourself back. And I think that that idea of value, values are basically worthless unless you attach them to specific behaviors. They’re going to be examples people can understand. And then hopefully emulate.

and be celebrated for. So yeah, I think that that idea of.

realizing the importance of, obviously a speaker in terms of leadership stuff, but I do a lot of team building. As a team building facilitator, a whole lot of the value of team building is not what you do with the talent, what’s in your locker room, but the first part of team building is who am I letting in, who is getting on our bus, who deserves to be here. And I think that being very selective on the front end is a really key part of making sure that your locker room stays a positive and productive place.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and when you don’t have everybody really with that same attitude about the culture and wanting to uphold it and make sure that it is being executed well by themselves and other people around them, I think it can cause…

really big risks in the company and unfortunately, where does the leader spend their time or the founder? I won’t say leader because if they’re letting it happen, maybe they’re not as good at leading. But if that founder allows that to happen and they end up spending all their time trying to fix the problems with the problem children, then what does that do to the relationship with the people that are really all about that culture and are producing at the highest level?

Yeah, I think so much of it again, talk about I’m sure this is something that you do as well in your coaching is, you know, before that person gets admitted.

to your locker room becomes part of your team is part of that onboarding, not just talking with you, but having a chance to spend some time with others that they’re going to be responsible for interacting with and others depending on. So you then ask those people that you really believe in and feel that you exhibit those values. Hey, is this somebody that fits with us? Is this somebody that you would enjoy working with? Is this you? Does this person align with what we actually believe? And I think that that’s a huge part of hopefully getting some

clarity and the other perspective because we don’t always see the same things or notice the same things and the more willing you are as a leader to get the input from others and for them to feel that they actually are trusted with some of that perspective is valuable as well.

Well, here’s another one. We have a lot of females in our group and as you know, you saw the makeup of our audience is probably 85 % female. And they do have a tendency to try to please people. And what I have seen happen many, many times is that it backfires because they’re over giving to the team because they feel like if I give them extra days off, if I give them special perks, if I give them gifts, if I give them…

bonuses and raises and do all these things, they’re going to love me and they’re going to stay here forever and they’re going to do a great job. And unfortunately, sometimes I see the opposite thing happen. What do you see?

As a young coach and again, as a guy, I’m being very presumptive and speaking to the unbelievably successful women that you work with. But somebody shared something with me that I think is a pretty well-known adage, but it certainly was meaningful to me is if you’re going to be a head coach, if you’re going to be a leader, if you’re going to be a business owner.

you need to get past the idea of being liked and really focus on being respected. And I think sometimes we fight so hard to make sure that we get the approval or the like that sometimes we end up sabotaging the things that would have earned us the long-term respect and admiration for sometimes making the difficult decision based upon those values. And I think that if your decisions and your behaviors and your conversations are rooted in, here’s our mission.

and here’s our values and everything we do has got to come back to those. So I don’t get distracted by the emotion of a moment. So I don’t get distracted by what would be easy to not have the conversation. If I’m really true to that mission and values that we’ve identified and emphasized is important in terms of the backbone of our organization, then a lot of the conversations we have are easier to have because it’s not me. It’s me looking at, hey, this is not a fit. This is not working. This is you an issue because

of it’s not serving the values or it’s not serving the mission that is larger than any one person. And I think that to your point, absolutely there was a little bit of a difference between coaching guys and coaching, coaching gals. And it wasn’t emotions versus ego. Cause I can guarantee you, and you’ve certainly seen this, know, guys have emotions and women absolutely have egos. The issue that I saw is, is when I was in the locker room at halftime,

And we had given up seven or eight offensive rebounds and given away, you know, eight or 10 points because we hadn’t done a good job blocking out. If I’m talking with a team of young ladies or female athletes and I said, we got to start blocking out better. Each one of them has beat themselves up and they’re taking it personally because they’re that much more kind of self-critical. Whereas the guys almost to a man, you could kind of say that you could see them almost think to themselves, will that

blank or beside me better start blocking out even if they were the one who was the culprit. And I think that oftentimes, you that idea of what makes for the circumstance that you describe kind of a challenge is also a strength. think oftentimes what we sometimes see as a weakness can absolutely be a strength. think women are exceptional leaders because they are cooperative, because they

want to make sure they’re emphasizing creativity because they are compassionate, because they do consider others and their perspectives. Whereas the stereotypical male leader is going to maybe be confident without as much reason to be confident. think that idea of confidence and being a little bit more focused upon consequences is something that guys are quicker to lean on.

you know, to speak to that stereotype, at least, I think that the idea of women, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be compassionate and caring and cooperative as long as you establish, as you said, those boundaries that don’t end up sabotaging the team’s mandate. And my job as a leader is to make sure I’m protecting our values and protecting our mission. And again, if you,

The only way you’re gonna lose your best people is if you don’t address the worst behaviors in your people. And I think that it’s our job to make sure that again, we’re staying true to those promises we make in terms of values and mission and taking care of our people rather than allowing one person to end up being somebody that makes others question our.

Mm-hmm. Well, and it’s so easy to get tied up with how we feel about things and we are feeling people and the guys are feeling people as well. And as one of the builder I used to work with said, you know, guys have feelers too, you know. And I had to chuckle about it because I was also direct in my communication because

I felt like direct was honest or fair and it was at least there was clarity about what needed to be done. But there’s also a way to soft pedal it without being harsh. here’s another question for you. How do we maintain a friendly workplace and maintain boundaries at the same time? instead of getting too friendly with our team members, this can lead to having a hard time doing those tough conversations.

What do do about that?

I think it’s great for your team to have friends on your staff. think people want to have friends and have those connections and have that appreciation and understanding and caring for each other. But I absolutely believe that especially as a leader or an owner, transparency is going to create trust, transparency about communicating here’s the platform or the process or the change or the purpose. think that that transparency is important, but your team doesn’t need to know about the relationship.

issues that you’re having because that again begins to blur that professional line in terms of the boundaries that you want to maintain. And so yeah, I think that absolutely in terms of a leader.

your jobs to be as friendly as you can and as caring as you can and to make sure that you are inquiring about and being considerate of others challenges and circumstances and let them know that you care enough to inquire or stay curious about. But there are also things that as a leader probably need to be not part of those conversations in a professional atmosphere.

If someone is scaling their business, how do they find the best hires that fit the culture?

That’s the million dollar question, right? Is how do we actually bring in great people that fit our culture? And obviously that’s going to start with skills because there are going to be times that you need to bring somebody on that has a specific skill set. But I don’t think that skills are the end of or even nearly half of that consideration. I think that skills are important, but that’s just the, it’s kind of like the ante at the poker table. That’s the, the, the, the

price you pay to get into the door to have that interview is, do they have the necessary skills? I think the other areas are what are those values alignments in terms of their values and our values as an organization? And I think sometimes, and this is something that I had to learn as a young leader that was something that I was very much unconsciously doing is I think we sometimes have a tendency to want to hire people who are like us in some way.

And I think one of the best things that you can do as a leader is to sometimes be intentional about if their values match and their skills are going to be complementary and the resources that we need, how can I actually be intentional about hiring somebody who is going to bring a different perspective or some type of diversity that’s going to allow us to scale because we can then understand and deal with different clients a little bit more effectively.

Well, let’s get into the area of engagement because I think that engaging our employees once they’re on board is important. And how do we do that and build that great workplace?

What?

You see this today in college basketball, right? It’s the idea of the NIL and people will transfer from one year to the next and you don’t want your people to leave. And I think the most important recruiting that you do as a leader is to make sure that you keep the people in your locker room that you don’t want to lose. know, and I’m sure you, your coaching conversation, you, who are the people on your team that you absolutely would be, you know, horrified to lose. How do you have those stay conversations? Hey, why is it that you’re here? What is it that you want to get out of?

How do you make sure that they feel appreciated and that they see? Because I do think that there are, and one of my blog articles from a few months ago is, what are those loyalty anchors that keep good people on your team? And pay is one thing that obviously, I think that pay is a motivator up to a point. Once you reach a certain point, pay isn’t that determining factor of why people stay. So once you meet a baseline of what’s necessary, what they feel is fair,

I think that pay is off the table. It’s the other five that really equate to those five areas of culture. What is that purpose that they’re serving where they feel like they’re doing something that’s meaningful and has an impact that they care about? Who are the people that they care about where they have a connection with and feel cared for on the team? They build those new bonds and connections and relationships at the workplace with team members. The idea of what is the progress they feel they’re making. I think oftentimes even younger employees and team members, what can you

do to help them to gain new skills or to experience new things or to delegate opportunities so they feel that they’re making progress and building their own resume in some capacity? they feel like they’re feeling getting praised for the effort that they’re giving or are they kind of being ignored and neglected in terms of, know, I’ve really poured myself into this. I’m really proud of it, but nobody mentioned anything. So maybe they’re not really appreciating me. Maybe somebody else is going to appreciate me more. I think those ideas are important.

kind of area of opportunity is in parameters. And I think that’s one of the things that you mentioned, kind of the changing landscape. Where those parameters of how your people work, is it, I’ve got to be at the office nine hours a day, five days a week, or is it something where you can create a hybrid schedule where we’re going to be synchronous and we’re all going to show up on Tuesday and Wednesday, but then there are projects that you can take care of where we’re going to trust you to do these things and we’re just going to meet and, you

What is that going to look like so that you do give people maybe a little bit more of that work-life balance that I know number of people are seeking in some capacity?

Right, and I think it’s so interesting because some of the people I’ve talked to have said, well, I really want them all in the office. And what they’re really saying is I don’t trust them to work from home and to be productive. And that’s true of some people. Some people are just not geared for working from home and they might just get distracted and do laundry and take care of the kids and play with the kids in the backyard. a lot of people, you can tell pretty quickly whether they’re performing or not.

And so it’s really important to trust your employees and trust that they will do the work that you are requiring of them because you’re setting the expectations, the deadlines, and the quality of work standards. And if they understand that, then having that flexibility is a huge benefit to the team members. So just remember that just having them in the office isn’t the solution to making sure the job gets done.

And there are certainly people who can be in the office and put their feet up and be surfing the internet, right? So I think that idea of proximity isn’t always something that is productive, but can you as a leader be that much more intentional about clarifying those expectations of what those metrics are that people need to meet in order to be meeting a certain level of performance or productivity for that role that they’ve actually been filling?

What kind of communication and training would you recommend for teams that are feeling challenged with employees that aren’t fitting the culture?

Wow,

That is a terrific question. What type of training? I think that first is for ourselves as leaders or owners, and then ultimately for our team members, they don’t get better because they’re there longer. It’s not experience that gives people a greater capacity to lead or to be better teammates. It’s awareness. And so when you’re bringing somebody in to do a training of some kind or to grow your people, ultimately the outcome is you want to make sure that

you first and that’s your team member second, have an increased awareness of how what their attitude and their actions have an impact on the quality of client work or the interactions that you’re having within. And maybe some of that awareness is with personality styles and how to appreciate and understand some of those differences and what those tendencies might be. I think the idea of understanding how to have productive conversations, because there’s going to be disagreement and conflict. think disagreement is something that

you can absolutely endure. I may believe the Falcons are better than the Broncos. We can disagree and have some fun with that. But when they’re coming.

I about that, I disagree.

But when we get to that point in our conversation where you want to actually purchase X platform and I want to continue with what we were doing because I think it’s good enough and we have that conflict where there really needs to be a determination made. How do you have those conversations productively where people feel comfortable in disagreeing in a healthy way and sharing their perspective instead of biting their tongue and then presenting the fact that they weren’t actually you talked to or gotten you.

their perspective. so, yeah, I think that ultimately that idea of growing an awareness.

is the purpose of training so that you have different behaviors and different beliefs moving forward afterwards or different understanding and appreciation. And some of those can be the interpersonal skills, obviously, that sometimes become barriers. And all of that is also going to be training on specific things that are going to help them do their job better. They’re going to be a little bit more focused upon those specific skills or platforms that you’re going to work with.

Okay. Well, and we do, all of us have experienced running a business that occasionally we have a toxic person and sometimes we have underperforming team members. What happens when we keep those people on the team?

Not many good things. again, I think that goes back to your earlier conversation, Gail. And you know, think the worst thing we can do as leaders is to ignore or tolerate poor behavior because ultimately the best people in our team are always noticing what we address and what we don’t. As a coach and as a leader, the absolute best thing you can create in your organization is a player led team instead of a coach led team.

because I, and to go a little bit further with culture, leadership is what happens when I’m in the room. Culture is what happens when I’m gone. And that’s the behaviors that people display when I’m not there to call them out on. So if you can build a team of people who are living up to those standards and commitments and values without you having to be there to be the reminder or to kind of be the policeman or guardrails for that, that’s absolutely exceptional. That ultimately is the ideal is how do you build people in the organization that take your place?

I think the best leaders and the best coaches and the best parents are the ones that make themselves unnecessary but desired.

Well, and I think it’s so important for us to understand that we can all get better. We can be better leaders. We can be better.

owners, can be better friends, and we can do everything better. We also want to teach our team members to be better, and we want them to become leaders in the business. But a lot of us got into the role of running a business, and it was maybe unintentional that we ended up having a big team or a modestly small team, whatever the team is, other people reporting to us. But we were not necessarily trained to be leaders. So how do we learn that?

Well, that’s the beauty of what you do with the coaching that you provide, obviously. But I think that, you know, there is such a huge difference between being a designer and being a leader, between being an engineer and being a leader, between being a dentist and being a leader. And I think that ultimately that idea of moving from a technical skill to the leadership skills that are required, it’s a completely different kind of college curriculum you’re going through in order to learn what is

mean for me to grow a team and to establish a culture where they can thrive because ultimately my success once I begin to lead is not, you know, I don’t when I was coaching, I don’t score any points. I don’t get any rebounds. I don’t defend anybody and they wouldn’t have wanted me to.

But as a coach, my success came as a result of how well could I get my people to appreciate and do those things consistently with the discipline that we had agreed upon. And I think it’s the same way in any industry that the quality of your team’s results is based upon how well you can get them to understand the importance of doing those things that are going to lead to the success that you understand that you want to kind of grow them into.

And when it comes to where you kind of opened up that idea of having those conversations with people who maybe are doing things that aren’t productive or aren’t doing the things that would be productive, I think the willingness to have those conversations and to make it a conversation where people feel that you’re on their side.

I was very combative as a young coach because I did not trust that they wanted to be as good as I wanted them to be. And so again, it went back to that command and control and then your coerce and your consequence. And that was nowhere near as effective as what eventually you’ll learn to help people be more coachable. You’ve got to be more curious and compassionate. And it’s by asking questions and helping them to understand before or because you then understand if I was more coachable.

If I was more curious, if I was a little bit more willing to try and understand their perspective and then to ask them questions that help them to see the impact of some of the things that maybe their beliefs weren’t serving, I think that’s where you saw the change. And for people to be more coachable, you need to identify where they want to be and what they want to accomplish. You need to identify what is that kind of current number or level of performance. And it’s the gap in between that creates that

where you can begin to say, okay, well, what’s missing and how can we fill that with a skill or an understanding so that you can actually get to that place that you want to be. And my job is to support and encourage you through that because ultimately you that idea of your performance is going to be based upon how well I do in providing you the motivation and support to equip you to do what I’ll need you to do without me being there.

That’s great. Well, I have to ask you a few personal questions too. So tell me about maybe something that you haven’t accomplished yet that you would like to accomplish.

What I haven’t accomplished yet, that is, I think that to your point,

I very much want to stay coachable and I want to make sure that I am committed to growing and learning instead of being complacent. And so whether it was in my teaching career or my coaching career, now as a speaker and facilitator and coaching leaders, what is that kind of next mountain that I’d like to climb? And that again goes along with staying coachable, the last book. that leads, guess, to the next thing is I want to be better for the leaders that I serve.

in helping to simplify and clarify and helping them to implement those things, much like you’re doing honestly, is how can I be that much more helpful and how do I end up finding those things that are a useful and meaningful framework that people can apply so that they don’t step in the same potholes that I did when I was a young leader.

What’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned so far?

I know these are hard questions.

The biggest lesson I’ve learned is probably what got me on the path to working with culture and to be a better leader specifically is that time when I realized my team was failing because I was failing them as a leader. And the biggest lesson I learned was it was my ego that was the huge brick wall in my way and that pride of not wanting to acknowledge that maybe I wasn’t as good as I needed to be, that I wasn’t paying attention to the things that were X’s and O’s and

basketball are nice and important, but it’s going to be talent and culture that are far more important than the strategy that you’re trying to implement. And I think it’s that way in a lot of industries where, you if you’ve got good people and you build an organizational environment where they can thrive, you can sometimes be less successful or less specific with that strategy. They’re still going to find a way to succeed. And I think that ideally,

I would have earlier understood the negative impact of ego and I kind of share that as an acronym itself now is ego is something that

eliminates growth opportunities. so once I was willing to kind of put aside my ego and be humble enough to ask for help, that’s when my team started doing better. And I think that that’s why people come to you and to me as coaches is they realize that if I keep doing what I’ve done, I’m going to be limited by my knowledge and understanding and experience and how I can actually grow beyond that. I need to reach out to somebody who’s walked that path before.

Okay, and then the last personal question and then we’ll do a little wrap-up. So what is your favorite treat?

Well, it just came off of Halloween and my kids would tell you they’re of course out of the house now, but we still at Publix grocery store bought a bag of my sneaky treat as dad used to have the Halloween dad tax. And I would steal all the little mini baby Ruth’s out of my kids candy because that’s my favorite candy. So if you were to come over and offer a candy bar, it would certainly be the little kind of fun size baby Ruth and probably you a little bit of chocolate would never

be a bad thing.

Well, I would be the Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup girl, so that was always my favorite. Okay, well now I’m going to ask you to wrap up with three takeaways that you’d like to share with our listeners today. You’ve shared a lot of incredible things today.

three takeaways, if you’re looking back at some of what we’ve shared. Again, I’m so grateful for you to have me on. know that I’ve rambled on a little bit and hopefully some of it has been hiding a nugget or two that people can implement and apply to their teams. I think that ultimately culture is always a symptom of leadership.

And culture will either support or sabotage the strategy that right now you think is important. And again, everybody has a strategy. Culture is going to determine how well your people implement that. And it’s those five areas of culture that are going to determine how healthy your team is and how willing they are to collaborate and share information based upon your intention as a leader to focus upon those five areas of culture. So I think the first is that leadership is responsible for culture.

There’s five areas of culture that you can be intentional about focusing on. And that ultimately, you’re going to grow as a leader when you continue to invest in coaching and training, which is going to grow you so that you can grow your team. And that’s why you do such a fantastic job, Gail.

Oh, you’re sweet. Well, it’s been so much fun having you on. And again, it was such a delight having you at our retreat. It was so much fun. We could have had you for all three days, but it is always so helpful, especially in times like this, it would have been a little bit on the challenging side to have some strategies to break through whatever those issues are that are roadblocking you. So I thank you so much for your wisdom today.

Well, thank you for having the podcast and for having the retreats and the community that you’ve built. think that oftentimes as leaders, it’s just having the support and the reminders and the encouragements to do what we kind of know is going to be right, but isn’t always easy to do. And to have somebody that’s kind of giving you permission to make the decision and to have the conversation that you know is important is one of the key kind of values that you probably provide the people that absolutely benefit from your guidance.

So thank you so much for having me and if I can ever be a resource for you or certainly for your listeners I would be absolutely thrilled to have that opportunity to serve them as well.

Well, and in the show notes, we’ll put the titles of your book. And why don’t you share the one that you would like to share today?

Yeah, well, rapid teamwork is the one that goes over the five areas of culture. I have Staying Coachable, which is my most recent book about helping people to thrive in change. And you kind of focus on relentless improvement. And they can find all those on my website at Great Results Team Building. And I’m at Sean Glaze on LinkedIn.

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Absolutely my pleasure, really enjoyed the time with you, Gale.

Not that long ago, interior designers who wanted to get their projects or profiles published had just a few options—mainly newspapers and magazines. Today, the digital revolution has created a plethora of new media hungry for content. How to decide where and what to publish with whom?

In this episode, Gail talks with publishing and public relations expert Kelly Peterson. Kelly has over 40 years of experience in advertising sales and marketing initiatives. Among other publications, she worked at Meredith Publishing on Better Homes and Gardens. Having retired from the Hearst Corporation after 22 years, she now serves as a consultant and public speaker.

Gail asked Kelly which is better for interior designers, to get published in print or in digital media. Kelly said it depended on what goals the designer had for their business and for getting published. Digital media are very effective for building brand awareness and engaging with prospective clients. Print media is where you want to be to show off your design talents and expertise, as well as to gain prestige as a top designer.

Kelly provided a step-by-step approach to getting published, in whatever medium.

Kelly also shared her insights into what editors want from a pitch, how to submit, and when it is worthwhile for a designer or design firm to hire a publicist. For all the details, listen to the entire podcast.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s12e10-shownotes

Mentioned in This Podcast

If you would like to connect with Kelly, you will find her on LinkedIn, or you can send her an email at [email protected].

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Creative Genius Podcast, Kelly. So great to have you.

Thank you, Gail. It’s delightful to be here. I really appreciate it.

Well, I’m looking forward to our conversation. Everybody talks to me about PR all the time. And before we do that, let’s talk about how you got into the industry and how long you’ve been doing all of this.

You know, I got into the industry actually kind of out of a habit stance in that as a child, I’m severely dyslexic and was actually back in the sixties when you were dyslexic, you were put with mentally retarded children and then had to work my way out of that back into mainstream school. And when I was in high school, I started selling ad space for the choir directory.

And I happened to live next door to a gentleman who ran an ad agency. And he said to me, after two years of me walking up to his door and selling him ads in this choir directory, he was like, you know, Kelly, you would be very good at advertising sales. And I said, well, what is that? And he goes, exactly what you’re doing, only for magazines, newspapers, television or radio at the time. And I said, well, you know, that’s something I could pass in college. Cause I knew where my strengths and weaknesses were.

with education and I really wanted a business degree, but I couldn’t pass the economics and some of the more detailed accounting classes because of my dyslexia. And I could major in journalism and advertising sales and minor in business and understand marketing. So that is where that came from. My first semester, I actually started selling ad space for the Iowa Daily Press Association or the Iowa State Daily Newspaper.

and to make sure that I liked ad sales at the very beginning. And past my first semester called my parents and they were absolutely ecstatic because the doctors had told my parents I’d never go to college and I would never become really anything. So they were absolutely thrilled. I’d passed a semester, I’d figured out how to go to classes and be successful in my own right.

which I credit them for never telling me what the doctors had actually told them.

Thank goodness for that because then you would have had a wrong impression because obviously you’ve been very successful at what you’ve done. Yes.

So then my dream job was to become an ad salesperson for Better Homes and Gardens magazine, which was, went to Iowa State, which is only 45 minutes from the Meredith Corporation at the time, and ended up being hired at Meredith for a experimental training program in advertising sales. They never hired college graduates. And I trained for a year in all the aspects of publishing, circulation, marketing, editing.

I went on the road with advertising salespeople across the corporation. And then at the end of my year, I had a choice between to work on Better Homes and Gardens, my dream job, between San Francisco and New York City. Chose San Francisco and I was the first female hired ever to sell advertising space for Better Homes and Gardens magazine. Ew. Yeah. So it was really cool. It was a very interesting time.

Good night.

for women in business in 1982, 83, and there weren’t very many of us. And now the advertising industry is actually predominantly women. But it’s been a wonderful career and a really fascinating ride of understanding and seeing all the differences that has happened in the industry from the 80s to now.

Well, now I know we have a lot of other things we can talk about, how did I not know you were in Iowa?

I don’t know. I don’t think we ever talked about it. I was only there for the four years. My parents, I went to high school in Jacksonville, Florida. My parents had a deal that they would only pay for school in the state that they lived. And two weeks after I graduated from high school, they moved to Des Moines for my dad’s job. So I reapplied. I was going to the University of Florida, all set to be a Gator. And that didn’t happen. I went to Iowa State.

I don’t think so

Isn’t that funny? Well, I was born in Iowa and lived there till I was seven. My parents were from there. I have, I’m a true Midwestern girl, just transplanted to the South against my will. But you know, you do what you do. luckily I made lifetime friends as a result of that. So it’s all good. We all have good things that we have that come out of everything that is a challenge for us. Right.

It was very interesting. didn’t know that the temperature went below zero. I did not know that ice formed on the inside of car windows as well as the outside. It was very educational for a little girl from the South. But it was good.

All bad. All bad.

Yeah, in Jacksonville, that’s a, I’ve only been there once. It’s a lovely area. we have a great client there. Actually, we have a few clients in that area, so that’s, that’s great.

Yeah, it’s a beautiful city. love going back and visiting. I still have friends there, so it’s really nice. That’s how I fell in love with the coast and actually how I ended up in Charleston.

I see. Yeah. Well, I love the coast and anytime I can go see an ocean, I’m a happy girl. Well, tell me about the changes you’ve seen in the publishing industry over the last several years.

you know, it’s, it’s been dramatic. you know, starting out in the eighties there, you know, there was no voicemail back then. There was, you got a little pink slip of paper when you got a message and we had just gotten Selectric typewriters and the fax machine had just started with the waxy paper. Then we moved into, you know, computers and, car phones and cell phones and email. Yes, the big bricks and email and.

You know, the business as a whole, when I started out in it, it was really five industries. had newspaper, magazines, television. There was no actual cable at the time that hadn’t even started yet. And then you had outdoor and radio. And those were the key areas where advertising took place. Now, if you look across the board, the pie, as I refer to it, has grown exponentially. The interesting thing

that has occurred across all of advertising, not just in the publishing space, is that the budgets and the large budgets as well as the small budgets have remained pretty stagnant over the past, say five to even 10 years. They’d go up a percentage, go down a couple percentage points, that kind of thing. But your proliferation of choice of where to put that money has grown exponentially.

So all of the mediums actually get smaller percentages of the pie. So it’s a very different way of looking at where does the ad budget go. And you really have to be more precise about what it is you’re planning to do, how you’re planning to do it, and which mediums aren’t necessarily your favorite, but which mediums work for the clientele you’re trying to go after. Because it doesn’t matter what you like. What it matters is what the people you’re trying to reach and make an impact on.

as to reaching them in the correct medium that they are taking advantage of. So that’s been a significant, before you could look at kind of like, okay, let’s do a television ad and we’ll do a print ad and we’ll put out an outdoor billboard, split it up three ways, significant amounts of money towards each of those. Now it’s much smaller pieces of the pie. It’s much more difficult to be profitable.

Interesting. Well, and also for people that don’t know that industry is hard to figure out what is the right way to go. That’s where you get an ROI on whatever it is that you choose to do. let’s talk about this from the viewpoint of PR and getting published. How does one go about getting published today?

You know, I would tell you that the first thing you need to do is you need to basically understand what it is, who reads or who is interested in your product, who, who is your target. So research and then your business goals. Those are your first two things before you ever start to develop the PR plan. And then I would say, develop the plan is you really have to understand who’s my target. it women? Is it men? Is it a certain age group? Is it a certain

affiliations, have you been successful in particular areas of like currently as a designer, public speaking, or you’ve been very successful in certain mediums over others, pay attention to that. And then what are those business goals that will go along with that to develop what it is you want to do with PR? Because with PR, are you developing brand awareness? Are you developing where you want to have so many engagements as to meaning they’re going to hire you? So if

the PR plan is gonna be successful, you get hired five by five different people, or you get hired by two, or you make a certain amount of money on each design project. Whatever that is, you need to have a strategy and a structure against what it is you’re doing and why you’re developing the PR plan to begin with. Because once you have that plan in place and you start to figure out where and why I’m going, then you can actually start to do the research on one, the mediums that you wanna use.

because that could be social, it could be Instagram, it could be print, it could be a combination, but you need to know where that audience is going and where you’ve gotten the most return thus far. Then after you do your research, which there are multiple ways to do that, if there are particular brands, to that, on those brands, I would look at, start following them, start finding out what they’re writing about, look at their language, look at their photography, what are they using?

to gain their engagement with their particular audience so that you start to match up and you can say, know what, these match up very closely with what my aesthetic is, but the others don’t. So don’t pursue those. Narrow down that list. So it may be three, it may be five. Don’t go after a huge broad scope because you can’t focus. And then once you figure out what the

the demographics and the profile is of the mediums that you want, then you basically set up a plan. Now that plan could be structured where you’ve got so many times of communicating with those particular editors. And I would put out like a full plan of a six month or year plan. What people tend to do is they will put together what you would call like a package for PR and they’ll send it once, maybe follow up a second time.

And then they’re like, well, nobody ever reached back out to me. They’re They’re busy. And human nature, if you’re not really familiar with sales is you try one, two, three times, you give up. The true people who succeed are the ones that will go on and reach out five, six, 10 times because you reach out with different information or a thought.

Right.

It could be that you put together the package and I have some ideas about how the package should look, that kind of thing for you. But the next time you reach out, you could say, you know, I’ve been following you and you did this, this, and this. I saw this article that might be helpful. You start to make a relationship and a communication that you are not just interested in getting published, but you are interested in communicating back and forth so that your business is better and their business is better. Anytime that you can switch that conversation.

you’ll get more attention from the editor.

And we have to remember that the purpose of the magazine is to sell advertising.

Well, it’s to the purpose of the magazine is to communicate the editor’s viewpoint and focus as to what they can do. Now, what consumers will tell you about magazines is it’s the only medium that consumers love to look at the ads. All other mediums consumers really try and get away from the advertising. But the ads in magazines are always typically, if they aren’t, they don’t typically look at it, but they’re typically on focus with whatever the editorial content is.

So like in a design magazine, you see furniture, see faucets, you see things about design. So consumers like that because it gives them ideas as well as the edit.

Yeah, it’s so interesting because we, over the years, I’ve talked to Meredith, I’ve talked to the people there and all, but that’s how they pay for their magazine and for the publication. You’ve got to really satisfy the advertisers because that’s what generates the activity to pay the salaries and all of the printing and all the things that it takes to publish a magazine.

Yeah, initially it was back in the 70s, 80s and early 90s, advertising only was what paid the revenue, was how the revenue models were structured. As things became more difficult and more mediums became available, it began to actually separate between circulation and they started asking consumers to pay more for each of their magazines as well as advertising. So it went from circulation, say bringing in maybe five to 10 % of revenue

to now it brings in 50 to 60 % of revenue as ad revenue has diminished. Then you also have what’s happened in the digital side of the house where magazines have their digital components and they’re making revenue off of the digital. The other area that’s very interesting to be aware of, and I bring this up with designers because the editor, if you’re looking at the editor’s side of why they pick a story over a different story or why they pick a project, it has really a lot to do with.

with what is referred to as affiliate marketing. So affiliate marketing, editors over the past, I would say now 10 years, affiliate advertising and affiliate mentions has become a profit center for brands. So if an editor writes a story, an example is when I worked on Good Housekeeping, the editor that was writing on textiles needed to do a story.

on pillows. So she wrote the story on pillows and at the Hirsch Corporation, if the editor’s stories are not in the top five of Google search, it is reflected on their performance review. all their stories have to be up into the top five of Google search, anything that they write for digital or print. So, cause it’ll have a connection on print that you can go and look at it too. So she was noticing after she wrote this particular story,

that it wasn’t resonating. It was like number 10, number 12 on Google search. So she went back to the data scientists at Hearst and asked them, when consumers are searching for pillows, what are they putting in for search words? Because I’m not using the right words in my language, in my story. They gave her a new language. She redid the story. And that story stayed at number one in the search for the next 12 weeks.

wow.

So it’s a huge thing and the editors are again, are evaluated based on affiliate search. So if a designer can submit a project and talk about what the things are that could be extra affiliate search for that editor and understand the editor’s side of why she’s picking a story over another one, that could actually improve your opportunity to get published.

And it’s a little bit of background that most people don’t know about the edit side and the PR side of the business. You look at it like, well, if I just put together a cool package and I send a bunch of photos, that’ll all work. I went to the editors when I was putting together some of these thoughts and I said, what is it you would recommend that they send you or how they communicate with you? And they were very specific about do not send an FTP site.

send two to three photos, not inundate them with multiple photos because it clogs up their email. Send a short and brief up email with bulleted points as to what the project is. But get very intimate about who you are or what your story is or what the story is about the project that brings it to life. Because that’s what differentiates you from a standard designer submitting a particular story.

So it became become very intimate for the editor to say, this is something don’t send photos you don’t want produced and don’t send multiple brands that compete with each other at the same time. Be very sensitive to that. If you have published any of the photos or a blogger has published them, don’t submit them to a magazine editor slash digital editor. They won’t, they won’t publish them. So those are some of the

tips, tricks of the trade that could help when they’re putting together what it is they want to submit.

Well, here’s a question, of course, that’s assuming that somebody is doing their own publicity, but should they hire a publicist or can they do this themselves?

You know, there’s two schools of thought. I liken this back to how profitable is your business and how much do you require an hour? Like if you’re going great is 400 an hour, does it make sense? you’ve got a profitable business that you’re running and it makes sense that you can farm out the things that you aren’t as good at or that waste quote.

spend up time that you’re pulling you away from the time where you’re making that money, then you should hire. If you are starting out, then you need to figure out how you’re gonna layer that in until you get more profitable. Because the publicists are not cheap and you need to figure out, again, kind of going back to what your business goals are, what’s the reason you’re doing the PR campaign and why? What’s the revenue you’re gonna bring back from it?

And if you can look at say, okay, I want this is X and this is Z. If I get this much out of it, I can hire a publicist for this. Then that makes sense for your business. But if you can’t, then set up a kind of your own smaller PR plan and start building it as you go, just like you’re building your business. So it really depends. They can be great, but they can also take up a lot of money that you’ve got to look at for your profitability.

Well, and for example, the New York people are five to seven thousand a month. Yeah.

It’s a lot of money. And if you are pulling that in, I know for my own business, I have developed what I’m referring to it. It was a new article in the New York Times is a portfolio consultancy. And so I have a portfolio of clients. Well, when I took on my last one of recent, I hired a remote assistant because I was like, I cannot, my hourly rate, my time is worth X.

and I can’t be the person who’s spending time dealing with a database and updating a database and sending out some mass e-blast and things like that. Now I pay a remote assistant to do that. And it’s streamlined my business. I’m able to focus on where I can make the most money the quickest and what’s my strength and forte versus what I know I could do, but I’m not really fond of that I can farm out. And she does much better and much faster.

Well, we all have those areas that we need to give to somebody else because we’re not good at it. Mine is just scheduling. I’m terrible at that.

Well, Hazel’s there to help.

thank God for her. 11 years of this she’s put up with me. So what should somebody have in place in order to hire a publicist?

If you’re looking to hire a publicist, again, I would have a very specific, what are the goals that you want this publicist to do? Because you can go into a conversation. If you just tell a publicist you want PR, that’s gonna be like an open book and there’s a lot more they could charge you for versus a really set plan. I would ask for say, I basically on my business, I am doing X amount.

I want to grow my business X amount. think a publicist, want to be published within a year, two to three more times that I don’t know. Whatever that goal is that you set up, the more specific you can be to the publicist, the better your plan’s going to be because you want them to come back with a plan as to how many communications are they going to do? How are they going to do the communications? Are they going to use any of your current photography?

or you have upcoming photography or upcoming projects that they can pitch because a lot of those stories need to be pitched a year, sometimes a year and a half out before you’re going to see any fruition from what you’ve done. Knowing what timelines are, the timelines on digital, Instagram, things like that to get published are much quicker than the timelines on printed publications. So the timeline as to how, when they’re planning, when they’re writing the stories,

All of that varies and the publicist should know all of that and actually put that into the plan for you so that you know what it is you’re looking for. But the better you can get the publicist to give you a complete plan, do check-ins, check back on what they’ve done and getting confirmation on what they’ve done to make sure that your money is being used wisely would be my main recommendation.

There’s a lot to working with a publicist and you have to be responsive. So if you’re starting to work on a project with them, if you’re not answering them quickly, you can lose your chances of getting published by a magazine and you don’t want to burn bridges because it’s way too important to have an ongoing relationship.

It’s that infamous, you only have one chance to make a first impression. once you’ve got a partnership, that’s just amazing. The editors, if they know they’ve got somebody who is responsive and who gives them the information they need quickly and concisely, they will go back and back to that resource. They are very partnership oriented once they’ve found people that they really like their work. Another example is photography.

That’s right.

Look at who the brands are using for their photographer. If you really are set on trying to get with one brand, hire that photographer to give that same stylized and feel. Another thing that the editor said to watch when you’re doing photography to submit is be very careful about the time of year. Don’t make it look holidayish or don’t make it look fall or spring. Try and keep everything as…

minimal so they can if they have to move a story from a spring story to a fall story they can. They’re very cognizant of that fact when it looks too much like a holiday unless it’s specifically bought as a holiday shot.

Well, and one thing that I think is important to mention is that if you don’t have top quality styling for a lot of the magazines, it’s probably not going to fly because today the magazines aren’t paying for that. You have to pay for that. And in many cases, you need to pay for your own photography because the magazines don’t have the budget for it. So it’s really important to have the right level of styling as well as the right level of photography for your projects.

I’ve got a great example, one of my clients who’s there, you know, very large company at this point, and I’m not even sure how many on their team, maybe 25 or 30 people. They tried to start their own magazine, which was great. And that was a great idea. But the problem was they couldn’t get published in a regular magazine because they created their own magazine. That was number one. Number two, when people when the publicist looked at it and somebody who was wanting to help them with a book.

She looked at it and she said, you’ve got to hire a better photographer. You’ve got to hire a better stylist. And it costs them hundreds of thousands of dollars to go reshoot all of their work. But they have this beautiful coffee table book. They’re ready to go to their second one. And that’s a great way to get business. But you also have to invest a heck of a lot of money in doing a book. Like half a million dollars is a reasonable budget. So you’re not a small company when you do this.

Right, and taking that and actually making that photography work for you and be multipurpose. So you got it for the book. What are the other ways you can do to do outtakes, to do different shots, to do angles, so you can use it in Instagram and you can use it in social, you could use it in other aspects of what it is you promote your business. Really multipurposing any of the shoots or any of the things that you’re doing so you get it across.

your platforms. It’s not just good for one thing.

Sure. How important is it to be in print versus digital today? Which one would, if you were to choose one, which would you choose?

Again, think again, it really matters on what it is you’re looking for as a focus for your business, what your goal is. Because if you’ve found that your following is primarily on Instagram, then I would push for Instagram. But if you’ve been printed in print, first off, I try all the different mediums to kind of see, depending, know, especially at a higher level designer, I would go after trying to get

Publishing the different ones and then try and see how your play is as to what the engagement factor is It’s not really likes anymore. It’s engagement factor in that they’ve engaged with it They’ve spent time with it and they’ve maybe even communicated back with you You know what how much are you willing to spend to get that? Communication back with you and talk to that consumer to say yes. I’d like to come and do a project for you Because in the end you’re trying to grow the business

That’s the ultimate goal. Although we know that some people it’s for ego. They want to do this because it’s a big deal to be in architectural digest or Lux magazine or any of the big magazines.

And if that’s the purpose, that’s your goal. So it’s a very different, it’s a different way to look at it. Then I would, if I were looking at, know, I want that prestige of saying I was in Arc Digest or Lux, then I would go for print first because it maintains and stays longer. Then, you know, the Instagram is very quick. The different social mediums are much quicker and you still would be able to use the outtakes or some other things to get on there.

But if you’re looking for prestige, then I would go with print first.

Okay. How do you research a magazine so you know how to pitch to them?

So there’s a couple of ways. First off, look up the magazine online and you can say, know, like all the Hearst titles are under Hearst.com and or you could go to Condi or for Arc Digest, that kind of thing. Each one of them has their own website. Within the website, if you look up at the top, you can see things called like a media kit. So you would want to go and look at the actual media kit. In the media kit, you will find the demographics of that magazine.

You’ll find the household income. You’ll find what the circulation is, how it’s distributed. You’ll find what the website reaches, what their Pinterest reaches, what their Instagram, all of the different social components are all listed in the media kit. It’ll go into a lot of detail, probably more than you wanna know, but it gives you a picture of who that reader is. And that’s where you would start first.

Then I would also look at the print magazines and I would look at the websites, their Instagram feed, their Facebook feed, really do a little research. Most designers already know there’s three or four brands that are like their love, their go-to because it’s where they get inspired. So I’d start with those, then really start to figure out, okay, who’s my clientele? Where have they come from me before? How did I meet them? What kind of projects am I doing? And then start to see where that matches up.

because you can get the actual magazine, look through it, sign up for the Instagram, follow, watch what they’re doing to the point of how are they doing their shots? Are they doing their angled photos in it one way versus another way? When they do before and afters, are they exactly the same shot each way? Some brands do that and some brands don’t. Personally, I get very frustrated with the brands that don’t because I want to see the exact same shot. But there are brands that mix that up. Know that before you go in.

and start to pitch stop so that you know that your photography matches up with what they’re doing. So that’s how I would focus. So research both looking at it, become a follower, and then look up their media kit and really get dive into that and analyze, bring it down to three, depending on how much time you’re gonna put into your PR plan, three to five that you’re gonna contact on an ongoing basis. And this should be at least quarterly if depending upon how

heavy you’re trying to make this happen, you could do it a little more often, but definitely do not give up after two to three communications and come up. what I do when I put together these kinds of plans is I use my calendar on my email to tickle me and say, you know, a month from now, send this e-blast to this magazine. And it just reminds me and it keeps me going versus not having something to remind me that I need to do something. but

you can start to do the research that way. That’s how I would go.

Okay. And this question is more for, I think, I tell people, wait till you’re about two million in revenue to be able to do PR, just so you have the money to be able to afford it. But is PR only for well-established designers?

No, truly if if it’s somebody that’s just started out and they’ve got a real perspective of what their design aesthetic is and there’s a brand that you’re like I’ve matched up so well with this brand go for it then that that may be just the one person you go after and say and tell them I’ve been following you I’ve been watching you this is my aesthetic here’s several pro here’s a couple shots of several projects I’ve done could we work together?

Always ask the question, could we work together? I want to work with you. Make direct statements. Don’t infer. If anything, and I interview kids and adults, I mentor about 18 people with their career paths. And it’s phenomenal to me that I’ll ask them in a negotiation for salary or negotiation for a job or a project, like, did you say directly?

I want to work with you. I want to be a part of your team. And they’ll say, well, it’s inferred. I’m like, no, it’s not inferred. You say directly, because that makes a statement that you want to work with them.

Well, and we have to remember all of us are salespeople, whether we want it to be or not. That’s what we do. And you just happen to be somebody who loves sales, which is a gift and something that’s very unusual. I do. Well, and it’s great. So always we ask the same three questions. What are the three takeaways you’d like to share with everybody? And maybe there’s a question I forgot to ask. And if something else you thought you wanted to mention, please share.

You know, I went through this and I kind of from, from my talk, the main takeaways, I really just to focus, if you’re, looking to do this and get published is do your research, have your business goals, figure out the mediums you want to pursue, what you want to include in your pitch, how you’re going to engage, and then really just remember to ask for the order and to go.

back and forth more than three times.

Excellent. Kelly, this has been so illuminating. I really appreciate you being on the podcast today. And we will have show notes here. And if you have any information you’d like to share, just let us know. We’ll be happy to attach that.

Thank you. I really appreciated your time and you asking me to be on it. Thank you very much.

it’s my pleasure. Thank you, Kelly.

Artificial intelligence (AI) is still in its infancy. But already its impact is being seen in how people work, create content, search for information, and interact online. Only a fraction of the interior design industry is currently using AI on a regular basis. In the not-too-distant future, however, AI will be integrated into almost everything designers and their clients do.

In this episode, Gail talks with Douglas Robb, creator of Interior DesignHer and founder and editor of Interior Design Toronto. Douglas also assists his wife Nicole with her interior design business, Robb and Company, based in Toronto, Ontario. He is the host of the podcast The Interior DesignHer Podcast.

Gail, who uses an AI tool called Granola almost daily, was interested in how Douglas was using AI in his and his wife’s businesses. Douglas said he is still learning how to use AI and how to get the best results from it. At present he mostly uses it for searching information, content creation (text and visual), and to work out ideas.

Douglas mentioned several AI-driven online tools he currently uses on a regular basis: Chat GBT, Claude, Dall-E (an image-generator program), Perplexity, Gemini, and a third iteration of Google’s image generator called Imagen 3. They are all free and fairly easy to use for those who want to begin exploring what AI can do for them.

In order to help interior designers more quickly become accustomed to using AI, Douglas has created a guide on how to prompt an AI program on design-related topics. He recommends for beginners to spend some time having a conversation with the AI interface, playing with images and image generation, and creating some basic content, perhaps for a blog. Gradually, he said, you will learn to fine tune your prompts to get better quality results.

Gail asked Douglas how he envisioned AI being used in the interior design industry in the future. On the business side, he said, it will allow designers to operate faster, cheaper, better and more efficiently. On the design side, it will enhance designers’ ability to present design concepts, generate images and plans, and present their design ideas to clients with more visual impact.

He added that what AI won’t do is replace creativity, the relationships designers develop with their clients and suppliers, and the level of caring that goes into their projects.

“Creatives are positioned to succeed fantastically with AI,” he said. Designers who want to stay competitive need to become comfortable with using AI in their businesses and design work.

Gail and Douglas also talked about the benefits of podcasting. For that and more, listen to the entire podcast.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s12e9-shownotes

Mentioned in This Podcast

To learn more about Interior DesignHer, which aims to help interior designers build better businesses, and the many resources it offers, including The Interior DesignHer podcast, go to the firm’s website at www.interiordesignher.com.

For additional resources and advice on improving your interior design business, check out Interior Design Toronto at www.interiordesign.to. The site includes a directory of recommended interior design products.

For information about Robb and Company, which specializes in residential design and decoration, go to the firm’s website at www.robbandcompany.com.

Douglas mentioned several AI-driven programs he currently uses:

Click here to read Douglas’ guide to AI prompts.

Gail mentioned a program she uses for transcribing and editing meeting notes, called Granola.ai.

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Creative Genius podcast, Doug. I’d love for you to just tell us a little bit about yourself and your business. Thanks, Gail. Interior Design Her. It really came about during like the darkest days of COVID when we were all locked up at home and I was helping to homeschool my kindergartener and realizing how amazing teachers are. But what happened was,

About six months before then, I had sold the second of my fitness businesses. I’d had a real life and an online. And I’d sold the second one. I was kind of at loose ends. I’d been working since I’d been 14. This is the first time I’d been without a job of some sort. And other than, like I said, homeschooling my daughter, I got to watch a lot of Netflix and listen to my wife run her residential design business.

from home on the phone. And going back to selling my businesses, the only reason I was ever able to do that was because I had systems set up that at that point, I was irrelevant to the business. People or automations or software did everything. you know, I stuck around for three months when I sold the business to the new owner.

just to kind of help ease them into it. But I really wasn’t necessary. And I realized that my wife, with her design business, she will never be able to sell it. It won’t happen because she’s everything. She’s the creative, she’s human resources, she’s everything. So because I love being married to my wife, I very gently suggested that maybe we could look at pulling those processes out of her brain.

and putting them down on paper and then eventually building that up into something more self-sufficient. And that’s what we did. And that led to us talking to other friends of hers, other designer friends of hers and helping them with that. And then that led to why don’t we do this on kind of a broader scale? And it’s not that I’m an expert on systems by any means.

or running a business by any means, I’ve bought and sold a couple of companies. But I understand that.

designers do a lot. They wear a lot of hats beyond the design side of it. It’s the business side of it. And design school never taught anyone how to run a business. I mean, I guess that’s why you exist, right? Exactly. You fill that gap in the industry and help designers create a better business. So that was my idea for interior designer to create a low cost or no cost business education resource.

for residential interior designers with a soft spot for solo designers and like tiny micro team designers. So that’s where interior designer came from. I got it. Well, that’s great. And of course, isn’t that all is the case every time you build a business is because you see a need in the market or something that’s missing in your own life or your own business. And it just leads you to the direction of developing something that hopefully other people will want to buy. Yeah.

So you’re also a podcaster. So what led you to starting your podcasts? It wasn’t a natural thing. It came about because of Interior Designer, but part of how I started putting my website together and the concept for Interior Designer was listening to podcasts, listening to interior design business podcasts like yours, like Luanne Negara’s and…

You know, I found out pretty quickly that some were amazing and some were less than amazing. And it was the less than amazing ones that gave me the confidence to say, okay, I think I could do it at least that good or bad. So I dove in. are your goals for the podcast? to, to educate. Right.

across the board. that’s fantastic. If anybody gets something from it, I’m happy. But if I can also redirect them back to the website and to all the other content that we’re building out on interiordesigner.com and improve their business. And that could be stuff that we’re building. I’m building different kind of low cost barrier to entry tools, but I also want to…

kind of create a hub where designers can feel comfortable knowing that they can come to the site, find things that they need. And if I can’t provide it, then I can direct them to somebody who can. And that could be a business coach. That could be someone who creates, I did a podcast. It just came out the other day with a lawyer who designs templates for interior designers exclusively.

And I know there’s a lot of templates out there already, but not many of them are created by someone like this who is a lawyer and focuses exclusively on this aspect of the law, contract law for designers. I’m like, you know, instead of using some DIY thing or asking chat GPT, you know, what should I put in my, in my contracts? You go to, to a lawyer who does this every day and is constantly updating.

her templates because she’s working with other designers and they’re finding new ways to make your company bulletproof from a litigious homeowner. Good luck on that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It’s kind of funny because we teach contract sessions to our team or to our clients. And what I find is that no matter how much you think you can prevent

some of those problems, you’re always going to have something else that pops up that you just didn’t anticipate. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s constant. So just out of curiosity, do you think designers should have podcasts? And if so, why? Oh, 100%. And nothing like what you do or what I do or Luanne does. What they should do without a doubt is start up a hyper local

interior design podcast about their town, their town, their city, their neighborhood, wherever. Like, I mean, if you live in New York City and there’s 10 million people, then maybe you make it even more local to like your borough of the town. Interior design is such a local business, right? Like to the point of almost for some designers, it being like the neighborhood they live in, right?

And if you become that person, they hear your voice, right? And you’re interviewing trades, you’re interviewing contractors, you’re interviewing other designers, you’re interviewing retail establishments. They keep hearing your name. Well, geez. When it’s their turn to go looking for an interior designer and you’re the name that keeps popping up all over the place and where you live, like, and it’s free.

It’s free. You don’t have to pay for this. It’s crazy. Well, it’s a great way to advertise. And I think the nice part about it is it allows people to get to know you as a person before they actually make the phone call or reach out to you by email. And I think today it’s really incredibly important to stand out. And right now, not everybody has a podcast. So that’s certainly one way you can stand out from your competitors. Yeah. It’s definitely not a saturated market.

Yeah. Definitely not. So let’s switch gears a little bit and talk about a hot topic for today, which is AI. And I’d like to spend some time talking about how it can be used in the interior design business and maybe just a little bit of your history with it. When did you start using AI? Like most people when chat GPT

came on the scene and like suddenly exploded and everybody was using it or, or Dolly, everybody was playing with like, you know, creating these weird images. I started playing with it and I started having conversations with friends who are way more nerdy than I am. And I said, like, this all looks really cool. And I said, but like, if I wanted to apply AI to a business, you know, how am I?

What am I going to do with it now? And to a person, the people that I trust that understand what AI is and how it can be used or will be used, they said, okay, everything we’re doing right now is like going back to the dial up days of internet. Like we are at the starting line of starting lines.

I would say, I mean, I use, probably play around with 20 different tools at any one time, chat GPT, Claude.ai, Dolly, let me think what else, perplexity, Gemini, Google has a fantastic new image generator and it’s also free. And so I’m using those all the time now, but.

It’s at this point, it’s still more of an education process of for me to learn how to use this tool correctly. It’s like somebody just handed a six year old a hammer and asked them to go build a house. The tool is there, but we don’t know how to use it yet. And that’s where I am kind of in that stage. I consider myself an enthusiast. I’m trying to learn things and yeah, I’m no expert yet. That’s for sure.

Well, it takes some time, but you know, honestly, all of us have been using AI for probably at least 10 years. We just didn’t necessarily identify it that way. Cause we have Alexa, we have Siri on our phones. have maybe chat bots that are talking to us on websites. So we’ve been using it. We just didn’t necessarily identify that that’s what we were doing. Yep. Good point. It’s a tool. It’s a tool.

It is a tool and it does make things easier. I use it every single day. have my favorite, which I’ll share. It’s called granola and it is for Apple computers. So I turn that on every single time I have a phone call today and it summarizes my notes, which is great because I can take notes at the same time. And then when the call’s over, it’ll just pop in all of the summary of everything that needs to be done and puts it into more complete sentences, which is a.

great little tool. Yeah. And in the coming months, that tool will end up being, when, conversation you’ve had, the AI will recognize who you had that conversation with, right? Send them the notes that they need to see, possibly send a note to one of your employees that needs to take action on this conversation you just had, and you will do none of it. It will just, boop, do it.

I love that. can’t wait. No kidding, right? Yes, absolutely. Especially because we as owners of businesses, we’re so busy and we have so many things that we’re doing and doing those admin things that’s not a good use of our time. So if we can automate and use AI to do that, why not? Yeah, for sure. How do you see AI being used by designers in the future? Currently, designers are using it for design concepts.

Right mid journey. Give me a room that looks like X, Y, and Z. That will continue and that will get better as as we learn how to prompt the AI better. Those images will improve design presentations. Imagine so now we’re combining AI with like augmented virtual reality stuff. Imagine going to a client’s home you’ve you’ve put together.

a design package and in addition to the physical design package, they slip on a pair of glasses like yours. And now, in addition to being able to see through those glasses and see their existing living room, they can see your design concept laid down on top of that. Right. How much better will that be for them to understand the design that you’re trying to present to them and get them to buy into?

or all the back of the house features of running a business that nobody really, well, most people don’t want to do, right? Imagine all of that stuff being partially or fully automated with AI or like you said about your meetings being transcribed and recorded or, oh, how about this? We go to a job site, it’s demo day, right? You go in wearing a,

GoPro style camera, right? Or it’s on your hat or something where it’s showing like a 360 degree and every image is captured on video and still, and then that automatically gets turned into social media posts and content for your website. And you don’t have to do any of that. I mean, this may be five years down the road. It may be longer than that even, but that is what AI is gonna end up doing for us.

taking away all these jobs that we don’t wanna do. Right. Yeah. Well, and the nice part about that is that it takes some of the tasks that are tedious and time consuming and allows us to have more time to be creative. Right. Yeah. And not just creative, but the time with our clients, right? Where we now have more time to sit down and draw out of them.

all of the dreams they have for their home that maybe they can’t articulate. And maybe you didn’t in the past have time to do that, but now you can sit and have these discussions and you’re creating better designs as a result because you understand really what they want and what they need. And, but because you’re not having to do a lot of the drudgery that we have to do today for our business, it freezes up to be more creative, to be more.

human, I guess, for lack of a better word. of being, I think machines, I think sometimes as designers we’re machines and we are constantly just working, working, working. And if we can free ourselves up from some of those working things to doing these fun things that we enjoy doing, and that’s really our gift. That’s where we provide value to the client. Yeah. And, and feel better. mean, like

going back to the COVID days when, you know, I would overhear, listen to my wife’s conversations with her clients and, you know, she’s painting a picture of what she wants to do. And not only is it coming to life in their heads, but like there’s me sitting on the couch eavesdropping, okay, I get it. I get what you’re saying, right? And it’s a pretty cool thing. Like, I mean, it’s a cool job interior designers have. I mean, there’s, yeah.

It’s a hard job too, which people underestimate how hard it is. Yeah. Well, this is really interesting. We just did our industry survey. We do it every year. And it was so interesting to me that hardly any designers answered questions about AI. And we had, oh, over 1100 people take the survey and it was just maybe 150 people. So maybe a little over 10%. Why do you think they didn’t want to answer questions about AI?

Do think they’re afraid of it?

I don’t think fear is the right word. uncertainty, uncertainty, because I mean, I think people are excited about AI and most people have played with it and maybe not got the output that they thought they were gonna get. It’s not as simple. mean, if we look at how we use the internet today, right? We have browsers, we have apps.

We have tools that make our experience simple from our side of the equation. AI is not there yet. It requires our input almost like we’re kind of halfway between being a coder type person and who we are today in how we use the internet. We’re being asked to do more and we haven’t been trained how to do that properly.

I put together, well, not just me, I mean, me and a couple of much nerdier people and I put together a guidebook on how to do prompts for interior designers. So it’s not specifically just for image design, but it’s for any kind of prompt. And it goes through all of the different things you need to take into account to come up with a successful prompt to the AI. And if you’re gonna ask laypeople,

to do that, I think uncertainty is fair. I think that’s to be expected. Okay. How would you suggest that the listeners get over their uncertainty about AI? Start playing with it. With no expectations. Don’t do it on your own. Instead of using, instead of next time you have to think of something or you’ve got a question, don’t ask Alexa. Don’t go on Google.

Go on chat GPT, go on Claude.ai, go on Perplexity, go on to Gemini, go on to one of the AIs and the free options are fine for that. You don’t have to pay any money and just start having a conversation. All right. And see where that takes you. Create some images, play with different things. I definitely, I mean, it’s a little self-serving, but I would say definitely get my, the guidebook on prompt engineering for designers and

take a quick flip through that and start, you’ll start being able to ask it more intelligent questions, more specific questions. And then once you start feeling comfortable with it, then you can think about maybe using it in your business. that could be something as simple, say someone, a designer has a blog on their website and they’ve been told, you know, you’ve got to start creating content if you want people to find you on Google.

Well, use a chatbot to start creating that content. And I don’t mean, you know, say, hey, chat GBT, you know, give me a blog article about this because it’s gonna be terrible. But you could ask it things like, you describe your business, what you do, who your ideal clients are, and what you wanna do for them and say, I need to create content for this avatar.

and then start having a conversation. It’ll spit out a bunch of suggestions and they’re probably going to be terrible. And then we start fine tuning it. You come back and little things like, you know, when you send a prompt, when I send a prompt to Claude, I always say, you know, please ask me clarifying questions until you are 95 % sure that we are going to have an effective answer to my question. And suddenly it asks me half a dozen different questions.

and I answer them, which then quite frequently now leads to me thinking, I should have done this or this, and then I’ll ask it more questions. And I’m 10 minutes down the rabbit hole before I’ve got an answer to my initial query. But the response is infinitely better. And you’ve probably saved yourself hours of time researching and doing this on your own. Yeah, right. Especially if you want to put out original content, right? Sure. Like we talked about doing a local podcast,

a designer’s blog should also be local. I mean, you should be writing about what homeowners in your city have access to. And you can talk to the chat bot about that as well and make everything very specific. And then you have to turn the text that they give you and make it sound like yourself, which is the trickiest part right now because, you know,

People have all sorts of ideas to how do you make an AI sound more human? It’s like, well, I don’t think anybody has that answer yet, really. Well, you can’t actually say I want it to sound like Gale Dobie or Douglas Robb. And so you can ask it to do that and it will pick things up because it does learn. Yeah. And if I did, so if I wanted to write, if I, okay, how about this for my next podcast, I want to,

do an interview podcast in the style of Gale Doby. So what I’m gonna do then is grab the transcripts of your past five interviews that you did for the podcast. I’m gonna feed it into the AI and I’m gonna say, okay, using these five pieces of content and then I’m gonna ask this question about like how to come up with a podcast, I’m gonna interview this person and I wanna do it in the style of Gale Doby, give me all of the questions I need to ask. It’ll analyze.

It’ll analyze your podcast and pretend it’s you. Love it. Yep. Geez, I don’t have to do it anymore. Seriously, right? No, it’s so funny. But I actually do enjoy podcasting. It’s fun because we end up going down different rabbit holes that we didn’t think we were going to talk about. So we’ll see where we go here today. How do you think AI will transform the design industry? Looking ahead five years, what do you think will happen? I think everything on

business side of the business is going to be able to operate faster, cheaper, better, more efficiently. But I think it’s not going to do, it’s not going to replace creativity. It’s not going to replace relationships. And that’s relationship with your client, relationship with your suppliers. And it’s not going to replace

the level of caring that a good designer needs to create truly amazing work. Yeah, that’s great. Well, that’s actually what most of us enjoy the most is the relationship piece and the creativity. So that’s a good thing for all of us. What has AI done for your business so far? For the…

For my wife’s design company, right now, just design concepts. But what I’m excited about for that is a lot of designers use different kinds of business platforms, right? Whether it’s a interior design specific platform or using some other customer relationship management software, AI is going to become part of that.

And I know, and I can’t talk about it yet, I’ve been sworn to secrecy of a business platform that is reworking their entire code base to use AI, but not in a chat GPT way where it scrapes the entire internet and tries to come up with better solutions, but where it is trained on

your business data for the most part and to a lesser extent the data of other business owners who use that platform and then start making suggestions and then start doing things that will help your business in a very non-generic manner. That could be something like, imagine if a designer

could feed all of their design concepts, all of their architectural drawings into an AI that could analyze those and possibly analyze drawings of other designers. And then when you meet with a new client, it already has a few suggestions for you, but not suggestions based on, like right now there’s a bunch of different softwares.

AI driven that are marketed towards the homeowner, more the DIY homeowner. And we’ll give you a room layout for your, you you want to spruce up your kitchen. It’ll say, okay, here’s what we do. So you’ll feed in some measurements. It’ll come back with a plan. And without a doubt, it’s going to be horrible. And in the same way that mid-journey, if we ask it the same question, it’s going to return a horrible looking

image. But if it’s been trained on your drawings, on your images, it’s kind of like that saying garbage in, garbage out, or feeding it very specific information, you’re going to get a much more detailed, much more effective response from the AI. I think that’s going to be a huge thing for designers.

For my business, for Interior Design Her, AI is all about, for me, creating content. And for me, learning about AI, because it’s going to be such a huge part. mean, the more I can know, the better I can be as a resource for designers. And to work out ideas in my own head, right? I sit there and I have conversations with it. you know, it’s…

And it’s getting better at learning from me, from what I’ve been feeding it, right? Its responses are better. It keeps getting better and better just a few months in. Yeah, it’s really fun to see where it goes. And I keep playing with it. I have a lot of work to do on that. When I go on sabbatical this year, fourth sabbatical, that’s my focus is AI, really learning more about AI and how we can use it in our business. Yeah.

Well, we always like to end our podcast with three takeaways that you would like to share with designers. And I’d like for you to maybe think for a second about what we’ve talked about today and share three different points you’d like to get across. Number one, interior designers do not receive a business education. And it’s kind of a unique industry in that it is dominated by

small, small, teeny tiny little businesses. And we don’t have MBAs that can run the backend of our company for the most part. So we end up doing everything. Designers end up doing everything. That’s why I’m trying to build interior design here. And that’s why you do what you do. number one, business education has to be important if you want to have a successful interior design business. Two,

AI is going to change the interior design industry. It’s not a question if it’s a question when. it’s creatives. mean, you know, I’m kind of looking into a crystal ball here and maybe I’m going to be completely wrong. But I think creatives are uniquely situated to like succeed fantastically with AI.

Everybody, when AI first was getting talked about and robots were getting talked about, was saying jobs that were going to go were like the low income jobs where people working at McDonald’s, everything’s going to be robots. And then coders are freaking out now because these chatbots are like being able to crank out decent computer code already. I mean, but creatives, artists.

And I would lump interior designers in that bucket. Like the images, the best images that they can do right now still require an input that the lay person can’t do. So I think creatives are uniquely situated to thrive in a world where AI, you know, becomes our business confidence. And third thing I’d say, let’s go back to the podcast. Like interior design is such a local business, podcasting,

Low barrier to entry, zero cost. You don’t have to do video. If all you want to do is audio, that’s fine. And it can be phone calls. can be going to the local custom furniture builder and having a 20 minute chat with your iPhone recording the conversation. Build your name up in your local area by using a podcast. So much better than

Instagram, so much better than paying somebody to flog your business on Google. Like, it’s free and I mean, if I can do it, anybody can do it. Well, it’s been a delight having you on Douglas and I wish you and your wife great success and thank you so much for sharing your insights today. I’m sure everybody’s going to enjoy this and going to go play with AI. Fantastic. Thanks, Gail.