Why do some teams thrive while others struggle despite having talented individuals? The answer is often team culture. A strong, well-defined culture can make or break an organization, affecting not just performance but also employee engagement, accountability, and overall job satisfaction. But how do you create that kind of culture in your own business, and leverage it for business success?

In this episode of the Creative Genius Podcast, Gail Doby talks with team-building expert and leadership coach Sean Glaze. Sean shares his insights on what it takes to cultivate a winning culture, drawing from his experience as a basketball coach and now as a speaker and consultant. His practical, no-nonsense approach helps leaders build environments where their teams can thrive.

Sean Glaze started this path as a basketball coach, using culture to lead several programs to new heights of success. With two decades of experience creating stronger cultures in locker rooms, Sean is now a team-building speaker and works with organizations to solve their team issues. He earned his Bachelors Degree in English at Georgia Southern University then a Masters and Specialist Degrees from Jacksonville State University. He has written several books, some of which are linked in the resources below.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

Sean also discusses why founders and business owners need to reflect on their leadership style and ask themselves, “What part of my leadership led to that response or that behavior?” This question that can be a game-changer for those looking to improve team dynamics and performance.

If you’re a business owner, manager, or team leader looking to create a more engaged, high-performing workplace, this episode is packed with actionable insights you won’t want to miss.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s13e1-shownotes

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

For more leadership tips and strategies, follow Sean on LinkedIn.

Welcome to the Creative Genius Podcast, Shawn. I just wanted to thank you again. came and spent a really wonderful session with our boardroom clients in September, and it was phenomenal. We really loved it. Everybody loved your session and walked away with lots of ah-hahs. So thank you for being here and being a part of it.

am absolutely thrilled to be back and to share with your audience and listeners. And hopefully I do make this a valuable experience for those who are joining us, whether it’s watching or listening.

Well, I have no doubt about that. So let’s just dive right in. And I want to talk about culture because this is a topic that I have lots of conversations with my clients about all the time. How important is that today to all businesses?

You know, and, as you know, and the people that were there at the amazing boardroom retreat that you guys put together, my background is as a basketball coach. so a lot of what I do now in working with organizations, whether it’s in, the industry where it’s, you know, kind of you design or whether it’s with medical or whether it’s with finance, ultimately teams or teams and people or people in the same issues we had in our locker room, people having with their teams.

And whether that’s hybrid, remote leadership and teams are still kind of based upon the same principles. And so culture is, what I completely neglected the first year that I had the opportunity to really be a leader. And I’d focused so much Gale on strategy. And obviously you need good people. You need to have talent. Talent’s essential, but it’s never sufficient. You got to have a good scheme. You got to have strategy. That’s what your people want to do. And what I learned that first year was that, you know, without culture,

to support your talent and your scheme. Ultimately, that talent and scheme gets sabotaged when you’re neglecting things that would have actually helped to support them. so culture, I’ll share, and obviously you’ve heard this once or twice before, culture is nothing more than the behaviors that are allowed and repeated in your organization, on your team. And it’s your job as a leader to realize there’s really five major areas of culture that you need to give attention to.

in order to make sure that you create an environment where those people and that strategy can really thrive and give yourself an opportunity to not just have success, but hopefully sustain success and the ability to scale as well.

Mm hmm. So the the five areas of culture, do you want to dive into that a little bit?

Yeah, I’ll go ahead and share that and that’ll maybe be the foundation of some of the rest of our conversation. I use the unbelievably simple and silly and cheesy acronym of great. If you want a great team, you need to focus upon the five vital areas of culture. The first is goals. You need to make sure that people understand why they’re there. You need to have that mission statement very, very clear of what it is you’re seeking to accomplish each day and where you’re going and who you’re serving.

The next is, you build relationships within your organization on your team? So you appreciate not just the people and the backgrounds and the personalities and the challenges and the desires of the people you’re working with, but do they feel that you actually have their best interest in mind that again, you’re always going to as a leader, you’re going to work harder than anybody else in your organization, but do they feel that you care about them and their path as well? so building relationships, what do you need to know about your people to get the best out of?

because not everybody’s gonna be the same, you’re not gonna treat everybody the same. The next is expectations. And I think that’s where, for the leaders that almost always do a pretty good job of identifying goals, and this is why we’re here, these are our metrics, this is what success is gonna look like. And then they will oftentimes, you know, at least give some attention or intentional time and resources to try and to build some connection and do some team building of some kind.

But oftentimes I see where a lot of leaders sometimes drop the ball is in that area of expectations. And do you really take time to clarify your values and the standards and the commitments that your team is going to operate under? And then after you establish those expectations, the A portion of that kind of great acronym is accountability, because it’s not a question of if, but when something happens that you need to address. And how do you do that effectively so that it’s not the defensiveness

or the kind of reactionary revolt that you don’t want that conversation to have when you are hopefully helping somebody to stay coachable. And then finally, do you take the time to really be intentional about thanking your people and making sure that they feel recognized for the effort that they’ve given. So those are kind of the five areas. And many leaders do a really good job with at least one or two or three.

But I found in the coaching conversations I’ve had and working even in conference settings that people come up, hey, I’m really good at X, Y, and Z, but I really needed to be reminded of blank because that’s an area that I’ve neglected. And I think that that sometimes is a key catalyst to seeing your team improve is realizing which of those five areas maybe hasn’t gotten the attention that it needs.

Well, there’s a good one here that I’d like to dive into a little bit deeper, which is accountability. And accountability is something that I hear a lot in the coaching that I do with clients, that they’re finding it hard to hold their people accountable and have them not just accountable for deadlines, but for accuracy and maybe their ability to provide great client service. So how do you get people to be accountable and how do you address the issue when they’re not?

I think that everything follows first the goal and then the relationship. And again, I used to make fun of the Tony the Tiger because you really need to focus on the grr before you get to the eight. Because if you haven’t really nailed home and really spent time and been intentional about clarifying goals and mission and roles and really being intentional about building those relationships where you establish trust and psychological safety across your team.

that those expectations and accountability conversations fall on deaf ears because you’ve not really taken the time to make people feel a part of something larger and more significant than themselves that they really feel valued as a contributor to. And so the idea of expectations, I think, is the next thing, obviously, in that kind of acronym where, yeah, you need to understand why this is important, how it serves our clients and our organization. But then.

If I as a leader, and again, a lot of times I go back to those basketball stories where I first picked up the idea of some of the leadership stuff. And if I’m holding a player accountable for doing something that, I wasn’t clear about the importance of it, or I wasn’t clear about how it needed to be done, and I didn’t do a great job teaching, then I was actually a really bad leader.

if I hadn’t done the job on the front end of clarifying the expectation and the urgency. And so a lot of times those conversations where I would, a really bad leader, I’d go in and I would, again, you start with the command and control, which is again, not a very good start to begin with. But I went from that to consequencing and complaining and criticizing, which just further exacerbated the bad relationship where those players wanted to kind of rebel.

And they really didn’t appreciate me as leader because I wasn’t leading in a very positive, productive way. And when I started to myself be more coachable, hey, how can I be a better leader to get those results that I want? My retention went up and my results went up when I went from the command to control and criticize and coerce to am I asking questions to really get a better sense of where they’re at? Because sometimes I would make assumptions. And I think that accountability really begins with empathy.

I think any accountability that your team shows is going to be because they care about someone or something that they want to make sure they live up to a standard and don’t let that person down, whether it’s a coworker or a client, it’s the empathy that they feel that drives that personal accountability. And so you want to build those relationships so that people don’t want to let each other down as team members. But you also want to make sure you build that expectation in terms of this is who we are. This is our reputation as a high end firm.

that we don’t ever want to let our clients down. We always want to over deliver and make sure that we’re delighting them because they’re getting more than they expected. And a lot of that comes back to clarifying those expectations and what needs to be done and how it needs to be done hopefully. And then the back end of that is them understanding when you do have that difficult conversation of, that’s not to our standard. That’s not going to be what we want to make sure that we allow.

because that becomes your culture, which you ultimately allow. Here’s how it needs to be done to make sure that we maintain this standard that we together set for ourselves in terms of those commitments that we’re gonna make about how we’re gonna go through. So Rin, I think that all accountability conversations start with the goals and relationships, but really it rests upon the idea of have you been clear with the expectations of the how and the why that makes it more meaningful?

Well, you brought up something I think is so important and I’ve learned that in my later years, is that you have to be the first one to take responsibility for the current results. And if the results are not what you want, then what is your part of that? What are you doing or not doing that is contributing to that lack of the result? And you have to look there because if you’re looking to blame your employees,

as a statement goes, fix the problem, not the blame. So if you want to get things done, then try to figure out what is it that is keeping this from happening? And is it me? Am I just not communicating well? Did I not hold people accountable? Like you said, did I not set expectations? Did I not say a set due dates and maybe what the outcome, what does good look like and what does finish look like? That some of those things, if you don’t.

talk about this with your team, then how in the world can you ever hold them to a standard?

And I think it’s not just as a team, but specifically on projects or when you’re delegating things to somebody to help them to grow. As you’re scaling, you want to make sure you take 10 members and turn them into leaders. And you do that by giving them responsibility, once they’ve shown that they desire and can live up to that responsibility. And I think that that goes back to, again, if I’m ever delegating, I need to be really clear about, like you said, what is the difference between good and great in terms of a finished product? And where am I going to in the future check in?

micromanaging, I want to trust you, but here are the places where I want to check in and make sure I’m providing the support you need and giving you some feedback to make sure that we end up with the same image at the end that we’re anticipating. And that was absolutely the key for me. My career as a speaker and trainer and coach began.

when I started to realize that that failure of my team was my failure as a leader. And it would have been very easy for me to have gone along and said, well, they’re not doing because they don’t care and they’re lazy and they’re this and they’re not. And ultimately, if it’s more than one or two people that aren’t doing something or they’re doing something that’s unproductive, it’s probably going to be the person who is their response before the culture. And again,

even when there is something, it may not necessarily always be your fault, but it’s absolutely as a leader, gonna always be your responsibility to address it. And one of the most powerful questions, and I know I shared this in the retreat as well, is if you’re a great leader, you’re gonna ask yourself questions. You’re gonna be introspective and reflect on. And one of the most powerful questions to ask you, what part of my leadership led to that?

what part of my leadership led to that response or that behavior by the person that I really believe is capable and smart and good and cares. So what is it that I can actually do so I’m better? And a lot of times that means I need to be more coachable and find a way that I can be better in my role. So I lift them up as well.

Well, those are really great tips and I love that question because again, as we just talked about how important it is for you as a leader to take responsibility for everything that comes out of your company, whether you like it or not, you’re responsible. starting there is a good idea. What are some of the biggest challenges that businesses are facing with building a strong culture today? And in this case, I’m probably referencing a little bit of the change in the mindset.

especially in the last few years after COVID, because things have changed quite a bit. And I think the structure and maybe the mindset of our employees has changed.

You know, it’s so interesting that you share it because I do, hear that a lot, Gail, and I’m not disagreeing because I do believe that a number of things have changed, the environment, the expectations sometimes, but I really believe in this. Again, I’m going to, you kind of look back at the basketball background for an analogy, but I think that ultimately winning in basketball comes down to who’s going to get the best shots, who’s going to do a better job of these very simple, fundamental things. And yeah, you can change.

the scheme and you’re going to play different ways. But ultimately, the same things that won games in the 70s or 80s or winning the games in the 2020s, because while talent has certainly increased and athleticism has increased, the idea of defending and I think that similarly, know, the the

taking care of the ball and getting the better shot, making sure that loudest the team that’s communicating the best is normally going to perform the best. I think those same things really translate over to team members and leaders. As much as things do change, I really believe that culture.

And that that desire that each of us have, each of the people that work with us have to want to be a small part of something larger than themselves, to want to feel like they’re doing meaningful work, to want to feel like they’re making progress and they’re making connections with people that they care about and care about them. I think those are things that have remained consistent. think sometimes it’s easy to get caught up by that shiny new object of what is new. And certainly there’s always going to be new technology and new shiny objects and distractions for us to, to,

kind of some, but I think that ultimately the things that made your business successful that you then share with people who now can use your coaching to make their businesses successful, I think those are going to remain consistent. There are things that are sometimes timeless in terms of leadership and teamwork. and regardless of some of the things that do change around us, I think that ultimately that idea of culture, you know,

The problem I think is sometimes we get distracted by what culture is. Culture isn’t foosball tables or snacks or time off. Culture is what are those behaviors that we allow and how does that make people feel because of those behaviors? And the more we can clean up those expectations and make sure we clarify the goals and we make people feel connected and we establish those expectations for values and standards and commitments. And we have those conversations where people feel like,

We’re actually on their side and helping them to be better so we as an organization can gather that much more respect. I think that’s what drives the results and retention that ultimately culture is responsible for.

Mm-hmm. What are some of the biggest mistakes that founders make in hiring and building a team?

Wow, I think that it is easy as a coach and as easy as a leader or as an owner to fall in love with technical skills and to neglect interpersonal skills. And I think when you’re having those interviews, giving your people a chance to spend some time with somebody as a team member and to get their perspective of how does this person fit in terms of their

character and their willingness to talk. There are so many other things that I think sometimes people are hired for technical skill and their specific talent or insight or expertise and they end up either being admired or fired because of the interpersonal skill that really

helps them to be successful with that technical skill. So as a leader, think oftentimes the onboarding process is something that maybe should sometimes take a little bit longer to make sure that that person’s a great fit in terms of the culture that you want. And I think that oftentimes, know, leave most often, you see this in all the research, people don’t leave an organization, they leave a bad leader. And I think that

Back to our question of what part of my leadership led to that, if we’re bringing somebody onto our team who’s not a great fit interpersonally, or who we’ve not done a great job of setting an expectation of, this is the culture here, this is how we go about things, this is what we find important, this is what we’re really gonna emphasize, and this is how we’re gonna work together. If we actually are really clear on the front end about what that’s gonna look like, oftentimes people will self-select and say, you know what, that’s not me.

But I think that it’s a hard conversation to have six months later of, you’re not a good fit because blank, if you’ve not been clear on the front end about what those expectations are going to be.

Mm-hmm. Well, yes, and absolutely we talk about that. It’s one of the very first things we do with people when they come to work with us is help them develop a culture statement for their company and identify the values of their culture.

and how they are going to evaluate people, whether they fit or don’t fit their culture. So it’s crucial in my opinion that we’ve got to have that top of mind every single day and your employees at some point must learn those words and not just learn those, but embody those words because embodiment of words is much more meaningful than just saying something.

I’m sure when you talk about values, and this is something I know I mentioned to you, that you are responsible for who you let into your locker room.

And you can sometimes fall in love with talent, but if it’s toxic talent, you’re sabotaging those that you’ve already helped to establish and tried to build trust with about what those standards are going to be. And if you allow somebody come in with what you think is going to be extraordinary talent that is not necessarily a great fit with the people around them, then you’re setting yourself back. And I think that that idea of value, values are basically worthless unless you attach them to specific behaviors. They’re going to be examples people can understand. And then hopefully emulate.

and be celebrated for. So yeah, I think that that idea of.

realizing the importance of, obviously a speaker in terms of leadership stuff, but I do a lot of team building. As a team building facilitator, a whole lot of the value of team building is not what you do with the talent, what’s in your locker room, but the first part of team building is who am I letting in, who is getting on our bus, who deserves to be here. And I think that being very selective on the front end is a really key part of making sure that your locker room stays a positive and productive place.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and when you don’t have everybody really with that same attitude about the culture and wanting to uphold it and make sure that it is being executed well by themselves and other people around them, I think it can cause…

really big risks in the company and unfortunately, where does the leader spend their time or the founder? I won’t say leader because if they’re letting it happen, maybe they’re not as good at leading. But if that founder allows that to happen and they end up spending all their time trying to fix the problems with the problem children, then what does that do to the relationship with the people that are really all about that culture and are producing at the highest level?

Yeah, I think so much of it again, talk about I’m sure this is something that you do as well in your coaching is, you know, before that person gets admitted.

to your locker room becomes part of your team is part of that onboarding, not just talking with you, but having a chance to spend some time with others that they’re going to be responsible for interacting with and others depending on. So you then ask those people that you really believe in and feel that you exhibit those values. Hey, is this somebody that fits with us? Is this somebody that you would enjoy working with? Is this you? Does this person align with what we actually believe? And I think that that’s a huge part of hopefully getting some

clarity and the other perspective because we don’t always see the same things or notice the same things and the more willing you are as a leader to get the input from others and for them to feel that they actually are trusted with some of that perspective is valuable as well.

Well, here’s another one. We have a lot of females in our group and as you know, you saw the makeup of our audience is probably 85 % female. And they do have a tendency to try to please people. And what I have seen happen many, many times is that it backfires because they’re over giving to the team because they feel like if I give them extra days off, if I give them special perks, if I give them gifts, if I give them…

bonuses and raises and do all these things, they’re going to love me and they’re going to stay here forever and they’re going to do a great job. And unfortunately, sometimes I see the opposite thing happen. What do you see?

As a young coach and again, as a guy, I’m being very presumptive and speaking to the unbelievably successful women that you work with. But somebody shared something with me that I think is a pretty well-known adage, but it certainly was meaningful to me is if you’re going to be a head coach, if you’re going to be a leader, if you’re going to be a business owner.

you need to get past the idea of being liked and really focus on being respected. And I think sometimes we fight so hard to make sure that we get the approval or the like that sometimes we end up sabotaging the things that would have earned us the long-term respect and admiration for sometimes making the difficult decision based upon those values. And I think that if your decisions and your behaviors and your conversations are rooted in, here’s our mission.

and here’s our values and everything we do has got to come back to those. So I don’t get distracted by the emotion of a moment. So I don’t get distracted by what would be easy to not have the conversation. If I’m really true to that mission and values that we’ve identified and emphasized is important in terms of the backbone of our organization, then a lot of the conversations we have are easier to have because it’s not me. It’s me looking at, hey, this is not a fit. This is not working. This is you an issue because

of it’s not serving the values or it’s not serving the mission that is larger than any one person. And I think that to your point, absolutely there was a little bit of a difference between coaching guys and coaching, coaching gals. And it wasn’t emotions versus ego. Cause I can guarantee you, and you’ve certainly seen this, know, guys have emotions and women absolutely have egos. The issue that I saw is, is when I was in the locker room at halftime,

And we had given up seven or eight offensive rebounds and given away, you know, eight or 10 points because we hadn’t done a good job blocking out. If I’m talking with a team of young ladies or female athletes and I said, we got to start blocking out better. Each one of them has beat themselves up and they’re taking it personally because they’re that much more kind of self-critical. Whereas the guys almost to a man, you could kind of say that you could see them almost think to themselves, will that

blank or beside me better start blocking out even if they were the one who was the culprit. And I think that oftentimes, you that idea of what makes for the circumstance that you describe kind of a challenge is also a strength. think oftentimes what we sometimes see as a weakness can absolutely be a strength. think women are exceptional leaders because they are cooperative, because they

want to make sure they’re emphasizing creativity because they are compassionate, because they do consider others and their perspectives. Whereas the stereotypical male leader is going to maybe be confident without as much reason to be confident. think that idea of confidence and being a little bit more focused upon consequences is something that guys are quicker to lean on.

you know, to speak to that stereotype, at least, I think that the idea of women, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be compassionate and caring and cooperative as long as you establish, as you said, those boundaries that don’t end up sabotaging the team’s mandate. And my job as a leader is to make sure I’m protecting our values and protecting our mission. And again, if you,

The only way you’re gonna lose your best people is if you don’t address the worst behaviors in your people. And I think that it’s our job to make sure that again, we’re staying true to those promises we make in terms of values and mission and taking care of our people rather than allowing one person to end up being somebody that makes others question our.

Mm-hmm. Well, and it’s so easy to get tied up with how we feel about things and we are feeling people and the guys are feeling people as well. And as one of the builder I used to work with said, you know, guys have feelers too, you know. And I had to chuckle about it because I was also direct in my communication because

I felt like direct was honest or fair and it was at least there was clarity about what needed to be done. But there’s also a way to soft pedal it without being harsh. here’s another question for you. How do we maintain a friendly workplace and maintain boundaries at the same time? instead of getting too friendly with our team members, this can lead to having a hard time doing those tough conversations.

What do do about that?

I think it’s great for your team to have friends on your staff. think people want to have friends and have those connections and have that appreciation and understanding and caring for each other. But I absolutely believe that especially as a leader or an owner, transparency is going to create trust, transparency about communicating here’s the platform or the process or the change or the purpose. think that that transparency is important, but your team doesn’t need to know about the relationship.

issues that you’re having because that again begins to blur that professional line in terms of the boundaries that you want to maintain. And so yeah, I think that absolutely in terms of a leader.

your jobs to be as friendly as you can and as caring as you can and to make sure that you are inquiring about and being considerate of others challenges and circumstances and let them know that you care enough to inquire or stay curious about. But there are also things that as a leader probably need to be not part of those conversations in a professional atmosphere.

If someone is scaling their business, how do they find the best hires that fit the culture?

That’s the million dollar question, right? Is how do we actually bring in great people that fit our culture? And obviously that’s going to start with skills because there are going to be times that you need to bring somebody on that has a specific skill set. But I don’t think that skills are the end of or even nearly half of that consideration. I think that skills are important, but that’s just the, it’s kind of like the ante at the poker table. That’s the, the, the, the

price you pay to get into the door to have that interview is, do they have the necessary skills? I think the other areas are what are those values alignments in terms of their values and our values as an organization? And I think sometimes, and this is something that I had to learn as a young leader that was something that I was very much unconsciously doing is I think we sometimes have a tendency to want to hire people who are like us in some way.

And I think one of the best things that you can do as a leader is to sometimes be intentional about if their values match and their skills are going to be complementary and the resources that we need, how can I actually be intentional about hiring somebody who is going to bring a different perspective or some type of diversity that’s going to allow us to scale because we can then understand and deal with different clients a little bit more effectively.

Well, let’s get into the area of engagement because I think that engaging our employees once they’re on board is important. And how do we do that and build that great workplace?

What?

You see this today in college basketball, right? It’s the idea of the NIL and people will transfer from one year to the next and you don’t want your people to leave. And I think the most important recruiting that you do as a leader is to make sure that you keep the people in your locker room that you don’t want to lose. know, and I’m sure you, your coaching conversation, you, who are the people on your team that you absolutely would be, you know, horrified to lose. How do you have those stay conversations? Hey, why is it that you’re here? What is it that you want to get out of?

How do you make sure that they feel appreciated and that they see? Because I do think that there are, and one of my blog articles from a few months ago is, what are those loyalty anchors that keep good people on your team? And pay is one thing that obviously, I think that pay is a motivator up to a point. Once you reach a certain point, pay isn’t that determining factor of why people stay. So once you meet a baseline of what’s necessary, what they feel is fair,

I think that pay is off the table. It’s the other five that really equate to those five areas of culture. What is that purpose that they’re serving where they feel like they’re doing something that’s meaningful and has an impact that they care about? Who are the people that they care about where they have a connection with and feel cared for on the team? They build those new bonds and connections and relationships at the workplace with team members. The idea of what is the progress they feel they’re making. I think oftentimes even younger employees and team members, what can you

do to help them to gain new skills or to experience new things or to delegate opportunities so they feel that they’re making progress and building their own resume in some capacity? they feel like they’re feeling getting praised for the effort that they’re giving or are they kind of being ignored and neglected in terms of, know, I’ve really poured myself into this. I’m really proud of it, but nobody mentioned anything. So maybe they’re not really appreciating me. Maybe somebody else is going to appreciate me more. I think those ideas are important.

kind of area of opportunity is in parameters. And I think that’s one of the things that you mentioned, kind of the changing landscape. Where those parameters of how your people work, is it, I’ve got to be at the office nine hours a day, five days a week, or is it something where you can create a hybrid schedule where we’re going to be synchronous and we’re all going to show up on Tuesday and Wednesday, but then there are projects that you can take care of where we’re going to trust you to do these things and we’re just going to meet and, you

What is that going to look like so that you do give people maybe a little bit more of that work-life balance that I know number of people are seeking in some capacity?

Right, and I think it’s so interesting because some of the people I’ve talked to have said, well, I really want them all in the office. And what they’re really saying is I don’t trust them to work from home and to be productive. And that’s true of some people. Some people are just not geared for working from home and they might just get distracted and do laundry and take care of the kids and play with the kids in the backyard. a lot of people, you can tell pretty quickly whether they’re performing or not.

And so it’s really important to trust your employees and trust that they will do the work that you are requiring of them because you’re setting the expectations, the deadlines, and the quality of work standards. And if they understand that, then having that flexibility is a huge benefit to the team members. So just remember that just having them in the office isn’t the solution to making sure the job gets done.

And there are certainly people who can be in the office and put their feet up and be surfing the internet, right? So I think that idea of proximity isn’t always something that is productive, but can you as a leader be that much more intentional about clarifying those expectations of what those metrics are that people need to meet in order to be meeting a certain level of performance or productivity for that role that they’ve actually been filling?

What kind of communication and training would you recommend for teams that are feeling challenged with employees that aren’t fitting the culture?

Wow,

That is a terrific question. What type of training? I think that first is for ourselves as leaders or owners, and then ultimately for our team members, they don’t get better because they’re there longer. It’s not experience that gives people a greater capacity to lead or to be better teammates. It’s awareness. And so when you’re bringing somebody in to do a training of some kind or to grow your people, ultimately the outcome is you want to make sure that

you first and that’s your team member second, have an increased awareness of how what their attitude and their actions have an impact on the quality of client work or the interactions that you’re having within. And maybe some of that awareness is with personality styles and how to appreciate and understand some of those differences and what those tendencies might be. I think the idea of understanding how to have productive conversations, because there’s going to be disagreement and conflict. think disagreement is something that

you can absolutely endure. I may believe the Falcons are better than the Broncos. We can disagree and have some fun with that. But when they’re coming.

I about that, I disagree.

But when we get to that point in our conversation where you want to actually purchase X platform and I want to continue with what we were doing because I think it’s good enough and we have that conflict where there really needs to be a determination made. How do you have those conversations productively where people feel comfortable in disagreeing in a healthy way and sharing their perspective instead of biting their tongue and then presenting the fact that they weren’t actually you talked to or gotten you.

their perspective. so, yeah, I think that ultimately that idea of growing an awareness.

is the purpose of training so that you have different behaviors and different beliefs moving forward afterwards or different understanding and appreciation. And some of those can be the interpersonal skills, obviously, that sometimes become barriers. And all of that is also going to be training on specific things that are going to help them do their job better. They’re going to be a little bit more focused upon those specific skills or platforms that you’re going to work with.

Okay. Well, and we do, all of us have experienced running a business that occasionally we have a toxic person and sometimes we have underperforming team members. What happens when we keep those people on the team?

Not many good things. again, I think that goes back to your earlier conversation, Gail. And you know, think the worst thing we can do as leaders is to ignore or tolerate poor behavior because ultimately the best people in our team are always noticing what we address and what we don’t. As a coach and as a leader, the absolute best thing you can create in your organization is a player led team instead of a coach led team.

because I, and to go a little bit further with culture, leadership is what happens when I’m in the room. Culture is what happens when I’m gone. And that’s the behaviors that people display when I’m not there to call them out on. So if you can build a team of people who are living up to those standards and commitments and values without you having to be there to be the reminder or to kind of be the policeman or guardrails for that, that’s absolutely exceptional. That ultimately is the ideal is how do you build people in the organization that take your place?

I think the best leaders and the best coaches and the best parents are the ones that make themselves unnecessary but desired.

Well, and I think it’s so important for us to understand that we can all get better. We can be better leaders. We can be better.

owners, can be better friends, and we can do everything better. We also want to teach our team members to be better, and we want them to become leaders in the business. But a lot of us got into the role of running a business, and it was maybe unintentional that we ended up having a big team or a modestly small team, whatever the team is, other people reporting to us. But we were not necessarily trained to be leaders. So how do we learn that?

Well, that’s the beauty of what you do with the coaching that you provide, obviously. But I think that, you know, there is such a huge difference between being a designer and being a leader, between being an engineer and being a leader, between being a dentist and being a leader. And I think that ultimately that idea of moving from a technical skill to the leadership skills that are required, it’s a completely different kind of college curriculum you’re going through in order to learn what is

mean for me to grow a team and to establish a culture where they can thrive because ultimately my success once I begin to lead is not, you know, I don’t when I was coaching, I don’t score any points. I don’t get any rebounds. I don’t defend anybody and they wouldn’t have wanted me to.

But as a coach, my success came as a result of how well could I get my people to appreciate and do those things consistently with the discipline that we had agreed upon. And I think it’s the same way in any industry that the quality of your team’s results is based upon how well you can get them to understand the importance of doing those things that are going to lead to the success that you understand that you want to kind of grow them into.

And when it comes to where you kind of opened up that idea of having those conversations with people who maybe are doing things that aren’t productive or aren’t doing the things that would be productive, I think the willingness to have those conversations and to make it a conversation where people feel that you’re on their side.

I was very combative as a young coach because I did not trust that they wanted to be as good as I wanted them to be. And so again, it went back to that command and control and then your coerce and your consequence. And that was nowhere near as effective as what eventually you’ll learn to help people be more coachable. You’ve got to be more curious and compassionate. And it’s by asking questions and helping them to understand before or because you then understand if I was more coachable.

If I was more curious, if I was a little bit more willing to try and understand their perspective and then to ask them questions that help them to see the impact of some of the things that maybe their beliefs weren’t serving, I think that’s where you saw the change. And for people to be more coachable, you need to identify where they want to be and what they want to accomplish. You need to identify what is that kind of current number or level of performance. And it’s the gap in between that creates that

where you can begin to say, okay, well, what’s missing and how can we fill that with a skill or an understanding so that you can actually get to that place that you want to be. And my job is to support and encourage you through that because ultimately you that idea of your performance is going to be based upon how well I do in providing you the motivation and support to equip you to do what I’ll need you to do without me being there.

That’s great. Well, I have to ask you a few personal questions too. So tell me about maybe something that you haven’t accomplished yet that you would like to accomplish.

What I haven’t accomplished yet, that is, I think that to your point,

I very much want to stay coachable and I want to make sure that I am committed to growing and learning instead of being complacent. And so whether it was in my teaching career or my coaching career, now as a speaker and facilitator and coaching leaders, what is that kind of next mountain that I’d like to climb? And that again goes along with staying coachable, the last book. that leads, guess, to the next thing is I want to be better for the leaders that I serve.

in helping to simplify and clarify and helping them to implement those things, much like you’re doing honestly, is how can I be that much more helpful and how do I end up finding those things that are a useful and meaningful framework that people can apply so that they don’t step in the same potholes that I did when I was a young leader.

What’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned so far?

I know these are hard questions.

The biggest lesson I’ve learned is probably what got me on the path to working with culture and to be a better leader specifically is that time when I realized my team was failing because I was failing them as a leader. And the biggest lesson I learned was it was my ego that was the huge brick wall in my way and that pride of not wanting to acknowledge that maybe I wasn’t as good as I needed to be, that I wasn’t paying attention to the things that were X’s and O’s and

basketball are nice and important, but it’s going to be talent and culture that are far more important than the strategy that you’re trying to implement. And I think it’s that way in a lot of industries where, you if you’ve got good people and you build an organizational environment where they can thrive, you can sometimes be less successful or less specific with that strategy. They’re still going to find a way to succeed. And I think that ideally,

I would have earlier understood the negative impact of ego and I kind of share that as an acronym itself now is ego is something that

eliminates growth opportunities. so once I was willing to kind of put aside my ego and be humble enough to ask for help, that’s when my team started doing better. And I think that that’s why people come to you and to me as coaches is they realize that if I keep doing what I’ve done, I’m going to be limited by my knowledge and understanding and experience and how I can actually grow beyond that. I need to reach out to somebody who’s walked that path before.

Okay, and then the last personal question and then we’ll do a little wrap-up. So what is your favorite treat?

Well, it just came off of Halloween and my kids would tell you they’re of course out of the house now, but we still at Publix grocery store bought a bag of my sneaky treat as dad used to have the Halloween dad tax. And I would steal all the little mini baby Ruth’s out of my kids candy because that’s my favorite candy. So if you were to come over and offer a candy bar, it would certainly be the little kind of fun size baby Ruth and probably you a little bit of chocolate would never

be a bad thing.

Well, I would be the Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup girl, so that was always my favorite. Okay, well now I’m going to ask you to wrap up with three takeaways that you’d like to share with our listeners today. You’ve shared a lot of incredible things today.

three takeaways, if you’re looking back at some of what we’ve shared. Again, I’m so grateful for you to have me on. know that I’ve rambled on a little bit and hopefully some of it has been hiding a nugget or two that people can implement and apply to their teams. I think that ultimately culture is always a symptom of leadership.

And culture will either support or sabotage the strategy that right now you think is important. And again, everybody has a strategy. Culture is going to determine how well your people implement that. And it’s those five areas of culture that are going to determine how healthy your team is and how willing they are to collaborate and share information based upon your intention as a leader to focus upon those five areas of culture. So I think the first is that leadership is responsible for culture.

There’s five areas of culture that you can be intentional about focusing on. And that ultimately, you’re going to grow as a leader when you continue to invest in coaching and training, which is going to grow you so that you can grow your team. And that’s why you do such a fantastic job, Gail.

Oh, you’re sweet. Well, it’s been so much fun having you on. And again, it was such a delight having you at our retreat. It was so much fun. We could have had you for all three days, but it is always so helpful, especially in times like this, it would have been a little bit on the challenging side to have some strategies to break through whatever those issues are that are roadblocking you. So I thank you so much for your wisdom today.

Well, thank you for having the podcast and for having the retreats and the community that you’ve built. think that oftentimes as leaders, it’s just having the support and the reminders and the encouragements to do what we kind of know is going to be right, but isn’t always easy to do. And to have somebody that’s kind of giving you permission to make the decision and to have the conversation that you know is important is one of the key kind of values that you probably provide the people that absolutely benefit from your guidance.

So thank you so much for having me and if I can ever be a resource for you or certainly for your listeners I would be absolutely thrilled to have that opportunity to serve them as well.

Well, and in the show notes, we’ll put the titles of your book. And why don’t you share the one that you would like to share today?

Yeah, well, rapid teamwork is the one that goes over the five areas of culture. I have Staying Coachable, which is my most recent book about helping people to thrive in change. And you kind of focus on relentless improvement. And they can find all those on my website at Great Results Team Building. And I’m at Sean Glaze on LinkedIn.

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Absolutely my pleasure, really enjoyed the time with you, Gale.

Not that long ago, interior designers who wanted to get their projects or profiles published had just a few options—mainly newspapers and magazines. Today, the digital revolution has created a plethora of new media hungry for content. How to decide where and what to publish with whom?

In this episode, Gail talks with publishing and public relations expert Kelly Peterson. Kelly has over 40 years of experience in advertising sales and marketing initiatives. Among other publications, she worked at Meredith Publishing on Better Homes and Gardens. Having retired from the Hearst Corporation after 22 years, she now serves as a consultant and public speaker.

Gail asked Kelly which is better for interior designers, to get published in print or in digital media. Kelly said it depended on what goals the designer had for their business and for getting published. Digital media are very effective for building brand awareness and engaging with prospective clients. Print media is where you want to be to show off your design talents and expertise, as well as to gain prestige as a top designer.

Kelly provided a step-by-step approach to getting published, in whatever medium.

Kelly also shared her insights into what editors want from a pitch, how to submit, and when it is worthwhile for a designer or design firm to hire a publicist. For all the details, listen to the entire podcast.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s12e10-shownotes

Mentioned in This Podcast

If you would like to connect with Kelly, you will find her on LinkedIn, or you can send her an email at [email protected].

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Creative Genius Podcast, Kelly. So great to have you.

Thank you, Gail. It’s delightful to be here. I really appreciate it.

Well, I’m looking forward to our conversation. Everybody talks to me about PR all the time. And before we do that, let’s talk about how you got into the industry and how long you’ve been doing all of this.

You know, I got into the industry actually kind of out of a habit stance in that as a child, I’m severely dyslexic and was actually back in the sixties when you were dyslexic, you were put with mentally retarded children and then had to work my way out of that back into mainstream school. And when I was in high school, I started selling ad space for the choir directory.

And I happened to live next door to a gentleman who ran an ad agency. And he said to me, after two years of me walking up to his door and selling him ads in this choir directory, he was like, you know, Kelly, you would be very good at advertising sales. And I said, well, what is that? And he goes, exactly what you’re doing, only for magazines, newspapers, television or radio at the time. And I said, well, you know, that’s something I could pass in college. Cause I knew where my strengths and weaknesses were.

with education and I really wanted a business degree, but I couldn’t pass the economics and some of the more detailed accounting classes because of my dyslexia. And I could major in journalism and advertising sales and minor in business and understand marketing. So that is where that came from. My first semester, I actually started selling ad space for the Iowa Daily Press Association or the Iowa State Daily Newspaper.

and to make sure that I liked ad sales at the very beginning. And past my first semester called my parents and they were absolutely ecstatic because the doctors had told my parents I’d never go to college and I would never become really anything. So they were absolutely thrilled. I’d passed a semester, I’d figured out how to go to classes and be successful in my own right.

which I credit them for never telling me what the doctors had actually told them.

Thank goodness for that because then you would have had a wrong impression because obviously you’ve been very successful at what you’ve done. Yes.

So then my dream job was to become an ad salesperson for Better Homes and Gardens magazine, which was, went to Iowa State, which is only 45 minutes from the Meredith Corporation at the time, and ended up being hired at Meredith for a experimental training program in advertising sales. They never hired college graduates. And I trained for a year in all the aspects of publishing, circulation, marketing, editing.

I went on the road with advertising salespeople across the corporation. And then at the end of my year, I had a choice between to work on Better Homes and Gardens, my dream job, between San Francisco and New York City. Chose San Francisco and I was the first female hired ever to sell advertising space for Better Homes and Gardens magazine. Ew. Yeah. So it was really cool. It was a very interesting time.

Good night.

for women in business in 1982, 83, and there weren’t very many of us. And now the advertising industry is actually predominantly women. But it’s been a wonderful career and a really fascinating ride of understanding and seeing all the differences that has happened in the industry from the 80s to now.

Well, now I know we have a lot of other things we can talk about, how did I not know you were in Iowa?

I don’t know. I don’t think we ever talked about it. I was only there for the four years. My parents, I went to high school in Jacksonville, Florida. My parents had a deal that they would only pay for school in the state that they lived. And two weeks after I graduated from high school, they moved to Des Moines for my dad’s job. So I reapplied. I was going to the University of Florida, all set to be a Gator. And that didn’t happen. I went to Iowa State.

I don’t think so

Isn’t that funny? Well, I was born in Iowa and lived there till I was seven. My parents were from there. I have, I’m a true Midwestern girl, just transplanted to the South against my will. But you know, you do what you do. luckily I made lifetime friends as a result of that. So it’s all good. We all have good things that we have that come out of everything that is a challenge for us. Right.

It was very interesting. didn’t know that the temperature went below zero. I did not know that ice formed on the inside of car windows as well as the outside. It was very educational for a little girl from the South. But it was good.

All bad. All bad.

Yeah, in Jacksonville, that’s a, I’ve only been there once. It’s a lovely area. we have a great client there. Actually, we have a few clients in that area, so that’s, that’s great.

Yeah, it’s a beautiful city. love going back and visiting. I still have friends there, so it’s really nice. That’s how I fell in love with the coast and actually how I ended up in Charleston.

I see. Yeah. Well, I love the coast and anytime I can go see an ocean, I’m a happy girl. Well, tell me about the changes you’ve seen in the publishing industry over the last several years.

you know, it’s, it’s been dramatic. you know, starting out in the eighties there, you know, there was no voicemail back then. There was, you got a little pink slip of paper when you got a message and we had just gotten Selectric typewriters and the fax machine had just started with the waxy paper. Then we moved into, you know, computers and, car phones and cell phones and email. Yes, the big bricks and email and.

You know, the business as a whole, when I started out in it, it was really five industries. had newspaper, magazines, television. There was no actual cable at the time that hadn’t even started yet. And then you had outdoor and radio. And those were the key areas where advertising took place. Now, if you look across the board, the pie, as I refer to it, has grown exponentially. The interesting thing

that has occurred across all of advertising, not just in the publishing space, is that the budgets and the large budgets as well as the small budgets have remained pretty stagnant over the past, say five to even 10 years. They’d go up a percentage, go down a couple percentage points, that kind of thing. But your proliferation of choice of where to put that money has grown exponentially.

So all of the mediums actually get smaller percentages of the pie. So it’s a very different way of looking at where does the ad budget go. And you really have to be more precise about what it is you’re planning to do, how you’re planning to do it, and which mediums aren’t necessarily your favorite, but which mediums work for the clientele you’re trying to go after. Because it doesn’t matter what you like. What it matters is what the people you’re trying to reach and make an impact on.

as to reaching them in the correct medium that they are taking advantage of. So that’s been a significant, before you could look at kind of like, okay, let’s do a television ad and we’ll do a print ad and we’ll put out an outdoor billboard, split it up three ways, significant amounts of money towards each of those. Now it’s much smaller pieces of the pie. It’s much more difficult to be profitable.

Interesting. Well, and also for people that don’t know that industry is hard to figure out what is the right way to go. That’s where you get an ROI on whatever it is that you choose to do. let’s talk about this from the viewpoint of PR and getting published. How does one go about getting published today?

You know, I would tell you that the first thing you need to do is you need to basically understand what it is, who reads or who is interested in your product, who, who is your target. So research and then your business goals. Those are your first two things before you ever start to develop the PR plan. And then I would say, develop the plan is you really have to understand who’s my target. it women? Is it men? Is it a certain age group? Is it a certain

affiliations, have you been successful in particular areas of like currently as a designer, public speaking, or you’ve been very successful in certain mediums over others, pay attention to that. And then what are those business goals that will go along with that to develop what it is you want to do with PR? Because with PR, are you developing brand awareness? Are you developing where you want to have so many engagements as to meaning they’re going to hire you? So if

the PR plan is gonna be successful, you get hired five by five different people, or you get hired by two, or you make a certain amount of money on each design project. Whatever that is, you need to have a strategy and a structure against what it is you’re doing and why you’re developing the PR plan to begin with. Because once you have that plan in place and you start to figure out where and why I’m going, then you can actually start to do the research on one, the mediums that you wanna use.

because that could be social, it could be Instagram, it could be print, it could be a combination, but you need to know where that audience is going and where you’ve gotten the most return thus far. Then after you do your research, which there are multiple ways to do that, if there are particular brands, to that, on those brands, I would look at, start following them, start finding out what they’re writing about, look at their language, look at their photography, what are they using?

to gain their engagement with their particular audience so that you start to match up and you can say, know what, these match up very closely with what my aesthetic is, but the others don’t. So don’t pursue those. Narrow down that list. So it may be three, it may be five. Don’t go after a huge broad scope because you can’t focus. And then once you figure out what the

the demographics and the profile is of the mediums that you want, then you basically set up a plan. Now that plan could be structured where you’ve got so many times of communicating with those particular editors. And I would put out like a full plan of a six month or year plan. What people tend to do is they will put together what you would call like a package for PR and they’ll send it once, maybe follow up a second time.

And then they’re like, well, nobody ever reached back out to me. They’re They’re busy. And human nature, if you’re not really familiar with sales is you try one, two, three times, you give up. The true people who succeed are the ones that will go on and reach out five, six, 10 times because you reach out with different information or a thought.

Right.

It could be that you put together the package and I have some ideas about how the package should look, that kind of thing for you. But the next time you reach out, you could say, you know, I’ve been following you and you did this, this, and this. I saw this article that might be helpful. You start to make a relationship and a communication that you are not just interested in getting published, but you are interested in communicating back and forth so that your business is better and their business is better. Anytime that you can switch that conversation.

you’ll get more attention from the editor.

And we have to remember that the purpose of the magazine is to sell advertising.

Well, it’s to the purpose of the magazine is to communicate the editor’s viewpoint and focus as to what they can do. Now, what consumers will tell you about magazines is it’s the only medium that consumers love to look at the ads. All other mediums consumers really try and get away from the advertising. But the ads in magazines are always typically, if they aren’t, they don’t typically look at it, but they’re typically on focus with whatever the editorial content is.

So like in a design magazine, you see furniture, see faucets, you see things about design. So consumers like that because it gives them ideas as well as the edit.

Yeah, it’s so interesting because we, over the years, I’ve talked to Meredith, I’ve talked to the people there and all, but that’s how they pay for their magazine and for the publication. You’ve got to really satisfy the advertisers because that’s what generates the activity to pay the salaries and all of the printing and all the things that it takes to publish a magazine.

Yeah, initially it was back in the 70s, 80s and early 90s, advertising only was what paid the revenue, was how the revenue models were structured. As things became more difficult and more mediums became available, it began to actually separate between circulation and they started asking consumers to pay more for each of their magazines as well as advertising. So it went from circulation, say bringing in maybe five to 10 % of revenue

to now it brings in 50 to 60 % of revenue as ad revenue has diminished. Then you also have what’s happened in the digital side of the house where magazines have their digital components and they’re making revenue off of the digital. The other area that’s very interesting to be aware of, and I bring this up with designers because the editor, if you’re looking at the editor’s side of why they pick a story over a different story or why they pick a project, it has really a lot to do with.

with what is referred to as affiliate marketing. So affiliate marketing, editors over the past, I would say now 10 years, affiliate advertising and affiliate mentions has become a profit center for brands. So if an editor writes a story, an example is when I worked on Good Housekeeping, the editor that was writing on textiles needed to do a story.

on pillows. So she wrote the story on pillows and at the Hirsch Corporation, if the editor’s stories are not in the top five of Google search, it is reflected on their performance review. all their stories have to be up into the top five of Google search, anything that they write for digital or print. So, cause it’ll have a connection on print that you can go and look at it too. So she was noticing after she wrote this particular story,

that it wasn’t resonating. It was like number 10, number 12 on Google search. So she went back to the data scientists at Hearst and asked them, when consumers are searching for pillows, what are they putting in for search words? Because I’m not using the right words in my language, in my story. They gave her a new language. She redid the story. And that story stayed at number one in the search for the next 12 weeks.

wow.

So it’s a huge thing and the editors are again, are evaluated based on affiliate search. So if a designer can submit a project and talk about what the things are that could be extra affiliate search for that editor and understand the editor’s side of why she’s picking a story over another one, that could actually improve your opportunity to get published.

And it’s a little bit of background that most people don’t know about the edit side and the PR side of the business. You look at it like, well, if I just put together a cool package and I send a bunch of photos, that’ll all work. I went to the editors when I was putting together some of these thoughts and I said, what is it you would recommend that they send you or how they communicate with you? And they were very specific about do not send an FTP site.

send two to three photos, not inundate them with multiple photos because it clogs up their email. Send a short and brief up email with bulleted points as to what the project is. But get very intimate about who you are or what your story is or what the story is about the project that brings it to life. Because that’s what differentiates you from a standard designer submitting a particular story.

So it became become very intimate for the editor to say, this is something don’t send photos you don’t want produced and don’t send multiple brands that compete with each other at the same time. Be very sensitive to that. If you have published any of the photos or a blogger has published them, don’t submit them to a magazine editor slash digital editor. They won’t, they won’t publish them. So those are some of the

tips, tricks of the trade that could help when they’re putting together what it is they want to submit.

Well, here’s a question, of course, that’s assuming that somebody is doing their own publicity, but should they hire a publicist or can they do this themselves?

You know, there’s two schools of thought. I liken this back to how profitable is your business and how much do you require an hour? Like if you’re going great is 400 an hour, does it make sense? you’ve got a profitable business that you’re running and it makes sense that you can farm out the things that you aren’t as good at or that waste quote.

spend up time that you’re pulling you away from the time where you’re making that money, then you should hire. If you are starting out, then you need to figure out how you’re gonna layer that in until you get more profitable. Because the publicists are not cheap and you need to figure out, again, kind of going back to what your business goals are, what’s the reason you’re doing the PR campaign and why? What’s the revenue you’re gonna bring back from it?

And if you can look at say, okay, I want this is X and this is Z. If I get this much out of it, I can hire a publicist for this. Then that makes sense for your business. But if you can’t, then set up a kind of your own smaller PR plan and start building it as you go, just like you’re building your business. So it really depends. They can be great, but they can also take up a lot of money that you’ve got to look at for your profitability.

Well, and for example, the New York people are five to seven thousand a month. Yeah.

It’s a lot of money. And if you are pulling that in, I know for my own business, I have developed what I’m referring to it. It was a new article in the New York Times is a portfolio consultancy. And so I have a portfolio of clients. Well, when I took on my last one of recent, I hired a remote assistant because I was like, I cannot, my hourly rate, my time is worth X.

and I can’t be the person who’s spending time dealing with a database and updating a database and sending out some mass e-blast and things like that. Now I pay a remote assistant to do that. And it’s streamlined my business. I’m able to focus on where I can make the most money the quickest and what’s my strength and forte versus what I know I could do, but I’m not really fond of that I can farm out. And she does much better and much faster.

Well, we all have those areas that we need to give to somebody else because we’re not good at it. Mine is just scheduling. I’m terrible at that.

Well, Hazel’s there to help.

thank God for her. 11 years of this she’s put up with me. So what should somebody have in place in order to hire a publicist?

If you’re looking to hire a publicist, again, I would have a very specific, what are the goals that you want this publicist to do? Because you can go into a conversation. If you just tell a publicist you want PR, that’s gonna be like an open book and there’s a lot more they could charge you for versus a really set plan. I would ask for say, I basically on my business, I am doing X amount.

I want to grow my business X amount. think a publicist, want to be published within a year, two to three more times that I don’t know. Whatever that goal is that you set up, the more specific you can be to the publicist, the better your plan’s going to be because you want them to come back with a plan as to how many communications are they going to do? How are they going to do the communications? Are they going to use any of your current photography?

or you have upcoming photography or upcoming projects that they can pitch because a lot of those stories need to be pitched a year, sometimes a year and a half out before you’re going to see any fruition from what you’ve done. Knowing what timelines are, the timelines on digital, Instagram, things like that to get published are much quicker than the timelines on printed publications. So the timeline as to how, when they’re planning, when they’re writing the stories,

All of that varies and the publicist should know all of that and actually put that into the plan for you so that you know what it is you’re looking for. But the better you can get the publicist to give you a complete plan, do check-ins, check back on what they’ve done and getting confirmation on what they’ve done to make sure that your money is being used wisely would be my main recommendation.

There’s a lot to working with a publicist and you have to be responsive. So if you’re starting to work on a project with them, if you’re not answering them quickly, you can lose your chances of getting published by a magazine and you don’t want to burn bridges because it’s way too important to have an ongoing relationship.

It’s that infamous, you only have one chance to make a first impression. once you’ve got a partnership, that’s just amazing. The editors, if they know they’ve got somebody who is responsive and who gives them the information they need quickly and concisely, they will go back and back to that resource. They are very partnership oriented once they’ve found people that they really like their work. Another example is photography.

That’s right.

Look at who the brands are using for their photographer. If you really are set on trying to get with one brand, hire that photographer to give that same stylized and feel. Another thing that the editor said to watch when you’re doing photography to submit is be very careful about the time of year. Don’t make it look holidayish or don’t make it look fall or spring. Try and keep everything as…

minimal so they can if they have to move a story from a spring story to a fall story they can. They’re very cognizant of that fact when it looks too much like a holiday unless it’s specifically bought as a holiday shot.

Well, and one thing that I think is important to mention is that if you don’t have top quality styling for a lot of the magazines, it’s probably not going to fly because today the magazines aren’t paying for that. You have to pay for that. And in many cases, you need to pay for your own photography because the magazines don’t have the budget for it. So it’s really important to have the right level of styling as well as the right level of photography for your projects.

I’ve got a great example, one of my clients who’s there, you know, very large company at this point, and I’m not even sure how many on their team, maybe 25 or 30 people. They tried to start their own magazine, which was great. And that was a great idea. But the problem was they couldn’t get published in a regular magazine because they created their own magazine. That was number one. Number two, when people when the publicist looked at it and somebody who was wanting to help them with a book.

She looked at it and she said, you’ve got to hire a better photographer. You’ve got to hire a better stylist. And it costs them hundreds of thousands of dollars to go reshoot all of their work. But they have this beautiful coffee table book. They’re ready to go to their second one. And that’s a great way to get business. But you also have to invest a heck of a lot of money in doing a book. Like half a million dollars is a reasonable budget. So you’re not a small company when you do this.

Right, and taking that and actually making that photography work for you and be multipurpose. So you got it for the book. What are the other ways you can do to do outtakes, to do different shots, to do angles, so you can use it in Instagram and you can use it in social, you could use it in other aspects of what it is you promote your business. Really multipurposing any of the shoots or any of the things that you’re doing so you get it across.

your platforms. It’s not just good for one thing.

Sure. How important is it to be in print versus digital today? Which one would, if you were to choose one, which would you choose?

Again, think again, it really matters on what it is you’re looking for as a focus for your business, what your goal is. Because if you’ve found that your following is primarily on Instagram, then I would push for Instagram. But if you’ve been printed in print, first off, I try all the different mediums to kind of see, depending, know, especially at a higher level designer, I would go after trying to get

Publishing the different ones and then try and see how your play is as to what the engagement factor is It’s not really likes anymore. It’s engagement factor in that they’ve engaged with it They’ve spent time with it and they’ve maybe even communicated back with you You know what how much are you willing to spend to get that? Communication back with you and talk to that consumer to say yes. I’d like to come and do a project for you Because in the end you’re trying to grow the business

That’s the ultimate goal. Although we know that some people it’s for ego. They want to do this because it’s a big deal to be in architectural digest or Lux magazine or any of the big magazines.

And if that’s the purpose, that’s your goal. So it’s a very different, it’s a different way to look at it. Then I would, if I were looking at, know, I want that prestige of saying I was in Arc Digest or Lux, then I would go for print first because it maintains and stays longer. Then, you know, the Instagram is very quick. The different social mediums are much quicker and you still would be able to use the outtakes or some other things to get on there.

But if you’re looking for prestige, then I would go with print first.

Okay. How do you research a magazine so you know how to pitch to them?

So there’s a couple of ways. First off, look up the magazine online and you can say, know, like all the Hearst titles are under Hearst.com and or you could go to Condi or for Arc Digest, that kind of thing. Each one of them has their own website. Within the website, if you look up at the top, you can see things called like a media kit. So you would want to go and look at the actual media kit. In the media kit, you will find the demographics of that magazine.

You’ll find the household income. You’ll find what the circulation is, how it’s distributed. You’ll find what the website reaches, what their Pinterest reaches, what their Instagram, all of the different social components are all listed in the media kit. It’ll go into a lot of detail, probably more than you wanna know, but it gives you a picture of who that reader is. And that’s where you would start first.

Then I would also look at the print magazines and I would look at the websites, their Instagram feed, their Facebook feed, really do a little research. Most designers already know there’s three or four brands that are like their love, their go-to because it’s where they get inspired. So I’d start with those, then really start to figure out, okay, who’s my clientele? Where have they come from me before? How did I meet them? What kind of projects am I doing? And then start to see where that matches up.

because you can get the actual magazine, look through it, sign up for the Instagram, follow, watch what they’re doing to the point of how are they doing their shots? Are they doing their angled photos in it one way versus another way? When they do before and afters, are they exactly the same shot each way? Some brands do that and some brands don’t. Personally, I get very frustrated with the brands that don’t because I want to see the exact same shot. But there are brands that mix that up. Know that before you go in.

and start to pitch stop so that you know that your photography matches up with what they’re doing. So that’s how I would focus. So research both looking at it, become a follower, and then look up their media kit and really get dive into that and analyze, bring it down to three, depending on how much time you’re gonna put into your PR plan, three to five that you’re gonna contact on an ongoing basis. And this should be at least quarterly if depending upon how

heavy you’re trying to make this happen, you could do it a little more often, but definitely do not give up after two to three communications and come up. what I do when I put together these kinds of plans is I use my calendar on my email to tickle me and say, you know, a month from now, send this e-blast to this magazine. And it just reminds me and it keeps me going versus not having something to remind me that I need to do something. but

you can start to do the research that way. That’s how I would go.

Okay. And this question is more for, I think, I tell people, wait till you’re about two million in revenue to be able to do PR, just so you have the money to be able to afford it. But is PR only for well-established designers?

No, truly if if it’s somebody that’s just started out and they’ve got a real perspective of what their design aesthetic is and there’s a brand that you’re like I’ve matched up so well with this brand go for it then that that may be just the one person you go after and say and tell them I’ve been following you I’ve been watching you this is my aesthetic here’s several pro here’s a couple shots of several projects I’ve done could we work together?

Always ask the question, could we work together? I want to work with you. Make direct statements. Don’t infer. If anything, and I interview kids and adults, I mentor about 18 people with their career paths. And it’s phenomenal to me that I’ll ask them in a negotiation for salary or negotiation for a job or a project, like, did you say directly?

I want to work with you. I want to be a part of your team. And they’ll say, well, it’s inferred. I’m like, no, it’s not inferred. You say directly, because that makes a statement that you want to work with them.

Well, and we have to remember all of us are salespeople, whether we want it to be or not. That’s what we do. And you just happen to be somebody who loves sales, which is a gift and something that’s very unusual. I do. Well, and it’s great. So always we ask the same three questions. What are the three takeaways you’d like to share with everybody? And maybe there’s a question I forgot to ask. And if something else you thought you wanted to mention, please share.

You know, I went through this and I kind of from, from my talk, the main takeaways, I really just to focus, if you’re, looking to do this and get published is do your research, have your business goals, figure out the mediums you want to pursue, what you want to include in your pitch, how you’re going to engage, and then really just remember to ask for the order and to go.

back and forth more than three times.

Excellent. Kelly, this has been so illuminating. I really appreciate you being on the podcast today. And we will have show notes here. And if you have any information you’d like to share, just let us know. We’ll be happy to attach that.

Thank you. I really appreciated your time and you asking me to be on it. Thank you very much.

it’s my pleasure. Thank you, Kelly.

Artificial intelligence (AI) is still in its infancy. But already its impact is being seen in how people work, create content, search for information, and interact online. Only a fraction of the interior design industry is currently using AI on a regular basis. In the not-too-distant future, however, AI will be integrated into almost everything designers and their clients do.

In this episode, Gail talks with Douglas Robb, creator of Interior DesignHer and founder and editor of Interior Design Toronto. Douglas also assists his wife Nicole with her interior design business, Robb and Company, based in Toronto, Ontario. He is the host of the podcast The Interior DesignHer Podcast.

Gail, who uses an AI tool called Granola almost daily, was interested in how Douglas was using AI in his and his wife’s businesses. Douglas said he is still learning how to use AI and how to get the best results from it. At present he mostly uses it for searching information, content creation (text and visual), and to work out ideas.

Douglas mentioned several AI-driven online tools he currently uses on a regular basis: Chat GBT, Claude, Dall-E (an image-generator program), Perplexity, Gemini, and a third iteration of Google’s image generator called Imagen 3. They are all free and fairly easy to use for those who want to begin exploring what AI can do for them.

In order to help interior designers more quickly become accustomed to using AI, Douglas has created a guide on how to prompt an AI program on design-related topics. He recommends for beginners to spend some time having a conversation with the AI interface, playing with images and image generation, and creating some basic content, perhaps for a blog. Gradually, he said, you will learn to fine tune your prompts to get better quality results.

Gail asked Douglas how he envisioned AI being used in the interior design industry in the future. On the business side, he said, it will allow designers to operate faster, cheaper, better and more efficiently. On the design side, it will enhance designers’ ability to present design concepts, generate images and plans, and present their design ideas to clients with more visual impact.

He added that what AI won’t do is replace creativity, the relationships designers develop with their clients and suppliers, and the level of caring that goes into their projects.

“Creatives are positioned to succeed fantastically with AI,” he said. Designers who want to stay competitive need to become comfortable with using AI in their businesses and design work.

Gail and Douglas also talked about the benefits of podcasting. For that and more, listen to the entire podcast.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s12e9-shownotes

Mentioned in This Podcast

To learn more about Interior DesignHer, which aims to help interior designers build better businesses, and the many resources it offers, including The Interior DesignHer podcast, go to the firm’s website at www.interiordesignher.com.

For additional resources and advice on improving your interior design business, check out Interior Design Toronto at www.interiordesign.to. The site includes a directory of recommended interior design products.

For information about Robb and Company, which specializes in residential design and decoration, go to the firm’s website at www.robbandcompany.com.

Douglas mentioned several AI-driven programs he currently uses:

Click here to read Douglas’ guide to AI prompts.

Gail mentioned a program she uses for transcribing and editing meeting notes, called Granola.ai.

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Creative Genius podcast, Doug. I’d love for you to just tell us a little bit about yourself and your business. Thanks, Gail. Interior Design Her. It really came about during like the darkest days of COVID when we were all locked up at home and I was helping to homeschool my kindergartener and realizing how amazing teachers are. But what happened was,

About six months before then, I had sold the second of my fitness businesses. I’d had a real life and an online. And I’d sold the second one. I was kind of at loose ends. I’d been working since I’d been 14. This is the first time I’d been without a job of some sort. And other than, like I said, homeschooling my daughter, I got to watch a lot of Netflix and listen to my wife run her residential design business.

from home on the phone. And going back to selling my businesses, the only reason I was ever able to do that was because I had systems set up that at that point, I was irrelevant to the business. People or automations or software did everything. you know, I stuck around for three months when I sold the business to the new owner.

just to kind of help ease them into it. But I really wasn’t necessary. And I realized that my wife, with her design business, she will never be able to sell it. It won’t happen because she’s everything. She’s the creative, she’s human resources, she’s everything. So because I love being married to my wife, I very gently suggested that maybe we could look at pulling those processes out of her brain.

and putting them down on paper and then eventually building that up into something more self-sufficient. And that’s what we did. And that led to us talking to other friends of hers, other designer friends of hers and helping them with that. And then that led to why don’t we do this on kind of a broader scale? And it’s not that I’m an expert on systems by any means.

or running a business by any means, I’ve bought and sold a couple of companies. But I understand that.

designers do a lot. They wear a lot of hats beyond the design side of it. It’s the business side of it. And design school never taught anyone how to run a business. I mean, I guess that’s why you exist, right? Exactly. You fill that gap in the industry and help designers create a better business. So that was my idea for interior designer to create a low cost or no cost business education resource.

for residential interior designers with a soft spot for solo designers and like tiny micro team designers. So that’s where interior designer came from. I got it. Well, that’s great. And of course, isn’t that all is the case every time you build a business is because you see a need in the market or something that’s missing in your own life or your own business. And it just leads you to the direction of developing something that hopefully other people will want to buy. Yeah.

So you’re also a podcaster. So what led you to starting your podcasts? It wasn’t a natural thing. It came about because of Interior Designer, but part of how I started putting my website together and the concept for Interior Designer was listening to podcasts, listening to interior design business podcasts like yours, like Luanne Negara’s and…

You know, I found out pretty quickly that some were amazing and some were less than amazing. And it was the less than amazing ones that gave me the confidence to say, okay, I think I could do it at least that good or bad. So I dove in. are your goals for the podcast? to, to educate. Right.

across the board. that’s fantastic. If anybody gets something from it, I’m happy. But if I can also redirect them back to the website and to all the other content that we’re building out on interiordesigner.com and improve their business. And that could be stuff that we’re building. I’m building different kind of low cost barrier to entry tools, but I also want to…

kind of create a hub where designers can feel comfortable knowing that they can come to the site, find things that they need. And if I can’t provide it, then I can direct them to somebody who can. And that could be a business coach. That could be someone who creates, I did a podcast. It just came out the other day with a lawyer who designs templates for interior designers exclusively.

And I know there’s a lot of templates out there already, but not many of them are created by someone like this who is a lawyer and focuses exclusively on this aspect of the law, contract law for designers. I’m like, you know, instead of using some DIY thing or asking chat GPT, you know, what should I put in my, in my contracts? You go to, to a lawyer who does this every day and is constantly updating.

her templates because she’s working with other designers and they’re finding new ways to make your company bulletproof from a litigious homeowner. Good luck on that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It’s kind of funny because we teach contract sessions to our team or to our clients. And what I find is that no matter how much you think you can prevent

some of those problems, you’re always going to have something else that pops up that you just didn’t anticipate. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s constant. So just out of curiosity, do you think designers should have podcasts? And if so, why? Oh, 100%. And nothing like what you do or what I do or Luanne does. What they should do without a doubt is start up a hyper local

interior design podcast about their town, their town, their city, their neighborhood, wherever. Like, I mean, if you live in New York City and there’s 10 million people, then maybe you make it even more local to like your borough of the town. Interior design is such a local business, right? Like to the point of almost for some designers, it being like the neighborhood they live in, right?

And if you become that person, they hear your voice, right? And you’re interviewing trades, you’re interviewing contractors, you’re interviewing other designers, you’re interviewing retail establishments. They keep hearing your name. Well, geez. When it’s their turn to go looking for an interior designer and you’re the name that keeps popping up all over the place and where you live, like, and it’s free.

It’s free. You don’t have to pay for this. It’s crazy. Well, it’s a great way to advertise. And I think the nice part about it is it allows people to get to know you as a person before they actually make the phone call or reach out to you by email. And I think today it’s really incredibly important to stand out. And right now, not everybody has a podcast. So that’s certainly one way you can stand out from your competitors. Yeah. It’s definitely not a saturated market.

Yeah. Definitely not. So let’s switch gears a little bit and talk about a hot topic for today, which is AI. And I’d like to spend some time talking about how it can be used in the interior design business and maybe just a little bit of your history with it. When did you start using AI? Like most people when chat GPT

came on the scene and like suddenly exploded and everybody was using it or, or Dolly, everybody was playing with like, you know, creating these weird images. I started playing with it and I started having conversations with friends who are way more nerdy than I am. And I said, like, this all looks really cool. And I said, but like, if I wanted to apply AI to a business, you know, how am I?

What am I going to do with it now? And to a person, the people that I trust that understand what AI is and how it can be used or will be used, they said, okay, everything we’re doing right now is like going back to the dial up days of internet. Like we are at the starting line of starting lines.

I would say, I mean, I use, probably play around with 20 different tools at any one time, chat GPT, Claude.ai, Dolly, let me think what else, perplexity, Gemini, Google has a fantastic new image generator and it’s also free. And so I’m using those all the time now, but.

It’s at this point, it’s still more of an education process of for me to learn how to use this tool correctly. It’s like somebody just handed a six year old a hammer and asked them to go build a house. The tool is there, but we don’t know how to use it yet. And that’s where I am kind of in that stage. I consider myself an enthusiast. I’m trying to learn things and yeah, I’m no expert yet. That’s for sure.

Well, it takes some time, but you know, honestly, all of us have been using AI for probably at least 10 years. We just didn’t necessarily identify it that way. Cause we have Alexa, we have Siri on our phones. have maybe chat bots that are talking to us on websites. So we’ve been using it. We just didn’t necessarily identify that that’s what we were doing. Yep. Good point. It’s a tool. It’s a tool.

It is a tool and it does make things easier. I use it every single day. have my favorite, which I’ll share. It’s called granola and it is for Apple computers. So I turn that on every single time I have a phone call today and it summarizes my notes, which is great because I can take notes at the same time. And then when the call’s over, it’ll just pop in all of the summary of everything that needs to be done and puts it into more complete sentences, which is a.

great little tool. Yeah. And in the coming months, that tool will end up being, when, conversation you’ve had, the AI will recognize who you had that conversation with, right? Send them the notes that they need to see, possibly send a note to one of your employees that needs to take action on this conversation you just had, and you will do none of it. It will just, boop, do it.

I love that. can’t wait. No kidding, right? Yes, absolutely. Especially because we as owners of businesses, we’re so busy and we have so many things that we’re doing and doing those admin things that’s not a good use of our time. So if we can automate and use AI to do that, why not? Yeah, for sure. How do you see AI being used by designers in the future? Currently, designers are using it for design concepts.

Right mid journey. Give me a room that looks like X, Y, and Z. That will continue and that will get better as as we learn how to prompt the AI better. Those images will improve design presentations. Imagine so now we’re combining AI with like augmented virtual reality stuff. Imagine going to a client’s home you’ve you’ve put together.

a design package and in addition to the physical design package, they slip on a pair of glasses like yours. And now, in addition to being able to see through those glasses and see their existing living room, they can see your design concept laid down on top of that. Right. How much better will that be for them to understand the design that you’re trying to present to them and get them to buy into?

or all the back of the house features of running a business that nobody really, well, most people don’t want to do, right? Imagine all of that stuff being partially or fully automated with AI or like you said about your meetings being transcribed and recorded or, oh, how about this? We go to a job site, it’s demo day, right? You go in wearing a,

GoPro style camera, right? Or it’s on your hat or something where it’s showing like a 360 degree and every image is captured on video and still, and then that automatically gets turned into social media posts and content for your website. And you don’t have to do any of that. I mean, this may be five years down the road. It may be longer than that even, but that is what AI is gonna end up doing for us.

taking away all these jobs that we don’t wanna do. Right. Yeah. Well, and the nice part about that is that it takes some of the tasks that are tedious and time consuming and allows us to have more time to be creative. Right. Yeah. And not just creative, but the time with our clients, right? Where we now have more time to sit down and draw out of them.

all of the dreams they have for their home that maybe they can’t articulate. And maybe you didn’t in the past have time to do that, but now you can sit and have these discussions and you’re creating better designs as a result because you understand really what they want and what they need. And, but because you’re not having to do a lot of the drudgery that we have to do today for our business, it freezes up to be more creative, to be more.

human, I guess, for lack of a better word. of being, I think machines, I think sometimes as designers we’re machines and we are constantly just working, working, working. And if we can free ourselves up from some of those working things to doing these fun things that we enjoy doing, and that’s really our gift. That’s where we provide value to the client. Yeah. And, and feel better. mean, like

going back to the COVID days when, you know, I would overhear, listen to my wife’s conversations with her clients and, you know, she’s painting a picture of what she wants to do. And not only is it coming to life in their heads, but like there’s me sitting on the couch eavesdropping, okay, I get it. I get what you’re saying, right? And it’s a pretty cool thing. Like, I mean, it’s a cool job interior designers have. I mean, there’s, yeah.

It’s a hard job too, which people underestimate how hard it is. Yeah. Well, this is really interesting. We just did our industry survey. We do it every year. And it was so interesting to me that hardly any designers answered questions about AI. And we had, oh, over 1100 people take the survey and it was just maybe 150 people. So maybe a little over 10%. Why do you think they didn’t want to answer questions about AI?

Do think they’re afraid of it?

I don’t think fear is the right word. uncertainty, uncertainty, because I mean, I think people are excited about AI and most people have played with it and maybe not got the output that they thought they were gonna get. It’s not as simple. mean, if we look at how we use the internet today, right? We have browsers, we have apps.

We have tools that make our experience simple from our side of the equation. AI is not there yet. It requires our input almost like we’re kind of halfway between being a coder type person and who we are today in how we use the internet. We’re being asked to do more and we haven’t been trained how to do that properly.

I put together, well, not just me, I mean, me and a couple of much nerdier people and I put together a guidebook on how to do prompts for interior designers. So it’s not specifically just for image design, but it’s for any kind of prompt. And it goes through all of the different things you need to take into account to come up with a successful prompt to the AI. And if you’re gonna ask laypeople,

to do that, I think uncertainty is fair. I think that’s to be expected. Okay. How would you suggest that the listeners get over their uncertainty about AI? Start playing with it. With no expectations. Don’t do it on your own. Instead of using, instead of next time you have to think of something or you’ve got a question, don’t ask Alexa. Don’t go on Google.

Go on chat GPT, go on Claude.ai, go on Perplexity, go on to Gemini, go on to one of the AIs and the free options are fine for that. You don’t have to pay any money and just start having a conversation. All right. And see where that takes you. Create some images, play with different things. I definitely, I mean, it’s a little self-serving, but I would say definitely get my, the guidebook on prompt engineering for designers and

take a quick flip through that and start, you’ll start being able to ask it more intelligent questions, more specific questions. And then once you start feeling comfortable with it, then you can think about maybe using it in your business. that could be something as simple, say someone, a designer has a blog on their website and they’ve been told, you know, you’ve got to start creating content if you want people to find you on Google.

Well, use a chatbot to start creating that content. And I don’t mean, you know, say, hey, chat GBT, you know, give me a blog article about this because it’s gonna be terrible. But you could ask it things like, you describe your business, what you do, who your ideal clients are, and what you wanna do for them and say, I need to create content for this avatar.

and then start having a conversation. It’ll spit out a bunch of suggestions and they’re probably going to be terrible. And then we start fine tuning it. You come back and little things like, you know, when you send a prompt, when I send a prompt to Claude, I always say, you know, please ask me clarifying questions until you are 95 % sure that we are going to have an effective answer to my question. And suddenly it asks me half a dozen different questions.

and I answer them, which then quite frequently now leads to me thinking, I should have done this or this, and then I’ll ask it more questions. And I’m 10 minutes down the rabbit hole before I’ve got an answer to my initial query. But the response is infinitely better. And you’ve probably saved yourself hours of time researching and doing this on your own. Yeah, right. Especially if you want to put out original content, right? Sure. Like we talked about doing a local podcast,

a designer’s blog should also be local. I mean, you should be writing about what homeowners in your city have access to. And you can talk to the chat bot about that as well and make everything very specific. And then you have to turn the text that they give you and make it sound like yourself, which is the trickiest part right now because, you know,

People have all sorts of ideas to how do you make an AI sound more human? It’s like, well, I don’t think anybody has that answer yet, really. Well, you can’t actually say I want it to sound like Gale Dobie or Douglas Robb. And so you can ask it to do that and it will pick things up because it does learn. Yeah. And if I did, so if I wanted to write, if I, okay, how about this for my next podcast, I want to,

do an interview podcast in the style of Gale Doby. So what I’m gonna do then is grab the transcripts of your past five interviews that you did for the podcast. I’m gonna feed it into the AI and I’m gonna say, okay, using these five pieces of content and then I’m gonna ask this question about like how to come up with a podcast, I’m gonna interview this person and I wanna do it in the style of Gale Doby, give me all of the questions I need to ask. It’ll analyze.

It’ll analyze your podcast and pretend it’s you. Love it. Yep. Geez, I don’t have to do it anymore. Seriously, right? No, it’s so funny. But I actually do enjoy podcasting. It’s fun because we end up going down different rabbit holes that we didn’t think we were going to talk about. So we’ll see where we go here today. How do you think AI will transform the design industry? Looking ahead five years, what do you think will happen? I think everything on

business side of the business is going to be able to operate faster, cheaper, better, more efficiently. But I think it’s not going to do, it’s not going to replace creativity. It’s not going to replace relationships. And that’s relationship with your client, relationship with your suppliers. And it’s not going to replace

the level of caring that a good designer needs to create truly amazing work. Yeah, that’s great. Well, that’s actually what most of us enjoy the most is the relationship piece and the creativity. So that’s a good thing for all of us. What has AI done for your business so far? For the…

For my wife’s design company, right now, just design concepts. But what I’m excited about for that is a lot of designers use different kinds of business platforms, right? Whether it’s a interior design specific platform or using some other customer relationship management software, AI is going to become part of that.

And I know, and I can’t talk about it yet, I’ve been sworn to secrecy of a business platform that is reworking their entire code base to use AI, but not in a chat GPT way where it scrapes the entire internet and tries to come up with better solutions, but where it is trained on

your business data for the most part and to a lesser extent the data of other business owners who use that platform and then start making suggestions and then start doing things that will help your business in a very non-generic manner. That could be something like, imagine if a designer

could feed all of their design concepts, all of their architectural drawings into an AI that could analyze those and possibly analyze drawings of other designers. And then when you meet with a new client, it already has a few suggestions for you, but not suggestions based on, like right now there’s a bunch of different softwares.

AI driven that are marketed towards the homeowner, more the DIY homeowner. And we’ll give you a room layout for your, you you want to spruce up your kitchen. It’ll say, okay, here’s what we do. So you’ll feed in some measurements. It’ll come back with a plan. And without a doubt, it’s going to be horrible. And in the same way that mid-journey, if we ask it the same question, it’s going to return a horrible looking

image. But if it’s been trained on your drawings, on your images, it’s kind of like that saying garbage in, garbage out, or feeding it very specific information, you’re going to get a much more detailed, much more effective response from the AI. I think that’s going to be a huge thing for designers.

For my business, for Interior Design Her, AI is all about, for me, creating content. And for me, learning about AI, because it’s going to be such a huge part. mean, the more I can know, the better I can be as a resource for designers. And to work out ideas in my own head, right? I sit there and I have conversations with it. you know, it’s…

And it’s getting better at learning from me, from what I’ve been feeding it, right? Its responses are better. It keeps getting better and better just a few months in. Yeah, it’s really fun to see where it goes. And I keep playing with it. I have a lot of work to do on that. When I go on sabbatical this year, fourth sabbatical, that’s my focus is AI, really learning more about AI and how we can use it in our business. Yeah.

Well, we always like to end our podcast with three takeaways that you would like to share with designers. And I’d like for you to maybe think for a second about what we’ve talked about today and share three different points you’d like to get across. Number one, interior designers do not receive a business education. And it’s kind of a unique industry in that it is dominated by

small, small, teeny tiny little businesses. And we don’t have MBAs that can run the backend of our company for the most part. So we end up doing everything. Designers end up doing everything. That’s why I’m trying to build interior design here. And that’s why you do what you do. number one, business education has to be important if you want to have a successful interior design business. Two,

AI is going to change the interior design industry. It’s not a question if it’s a question when. it’s creatives. mean, you know, I’m kind of looking into a crystal ball here and maybe I’m going to be completely wrong. But I think creatives are uniquely situated to like succeed fantastically with AI.

Everybody, when AI first was getting talked about and robots were getting talked about, was saying jobs that were going to go were like the low income jobs where people working at McDonald’s, everything’s going to be robots. And then coders are freaking out now because these chatbots are like being able to crank out decent computer code already. I mean, but creatives, artists.

And I would lump interior designers in that bucket. Like the images, the best images that they can do right now still require an input that the lay person can’t do. So I think creatives are uniquely situated to thrive in a world where AI, you know, becomes our business confidence. And third thing I’d say, let’s go back to the podcast. Like interior design is such a local business, podcasting,

Low barrier to entry, zero cost. You don’t have to do video. If all you want to do is audio, that’s fine. And it can be phone calls. can be going to the local custom furniture builder and having a 20 minute chat with your iPhone recording the conversation. Build your name up in your local area by using a podcast. So much better than

Instagram, so much better than paying somebody to flog your business on Google. Like, it’s free and I mean, if I can do it, anybody can do it. Well, it’s been a delight having you on Douglas and I wish you and your wife great success and thank you so much for sharing your insights today. I’m sure everybody’s going to enjoy this and going to go play with AI. Fantastic. Thanks, Gail.

What are you struggling with at the moment? A business issue? A design issue? A personal issue? Whatever the matter, rather than struggle alone, seek out advice from someone who can help you resolve it. You will learn something new, gain a new perspective, and be able to return to a more balanced, productive state of mind.

In this episode, Gail talks with Mike Agugliaro, founder of FuDog Group, an online firm focused on accelerating personal growth and mind growth. After starting, growing and selling several businesses, Mike decided to draw upon his own life and growth experiences to pursue his aim of helping others to remove suffering and to have life, business and wealth by design.

A self-made entrepreneur, Mike told Gail that he discovered early on that the way to resolve issues he was confronting, either personal or in his business, was to formulate a question about that issue and then ask it of someone smarter about the subject than he was. Be persistent and seek out the best experts you can find. Don’t let yourself get distracted by other matters until you get the issue resolved.

“If you ask the right question of the right people, the life that you desire is not that far away,” he said. Learn from someone else and get back to happiness as quickly as possible.

Gail asked Mike what his definition of success was. He replied that for him success is not what you achieve or acquire, rather it is a mental state. “Success is getting to the point of no matter what you want or what you desire, you can sit in a state of grace and be excited to be alive.”

From his years of experience coaching people, Mike said he has found two major reasons why people are struggling needlessly. Often, most of their pain and suffering is either old trauma, guilt and shame that they are still living with. They need to work toward letting go and living in the present. Also, a lot of people are struggling in their mind because they see only the downside when things go wrong. They should consider the upside of the downside. What is the opportunity being presented to them?

During the wide-ranging conversation, Mike and Gail also talked about the difference between knowledge and wisdom, what to consider when selling a business, and the importance of maintaining balance in your life in all things. For those insights and more, listen to the entire podcast.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s12e8-shownotes

Mentioned in This Podcast

To learn more about Mike and the services offered by the FuDog Group, go to the firm’s website at fudoggroup.com.

Mike mentioned his book, Mind Power: The 17 Secrets Of Using Your Thoughts To Powerfully Accelerate Every Area Of Life. It’s available from online booksellers.

Mike also recommended two books: Three Feet from Gold: Turn Your Obstacles into Opportunities! Think and Grow Rich by Sharon L. Lechter and Greg S. Reid. Acres of Diamonds by Russell Conwell. Both are available from online booksellers.

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Mike, welcome to the Creative Genius podcast. I’ve been looking to our conversation for quite a while and you are up on the East Coast and hopefully safe from all the hurricane issues that are going on. Yeah, very safe and excited to be here, Gail. Well, it’s our pleasure. So thanks for being here. I was thinking back, you and I met, my gosh, 2015. I know it was in a mastermind group. It’s been a while. And I was just thinking about how

when I met you, you were just so quiet. You’re very intent, you’re thoughtful. That’s the memory of my meeting with you. And what I’ve come to find out is how brilliant you are at business. And I’d love for you to share a little bit about your journey and how you got into doing what you’re doing. And we’ll get into your current business, but I’d like to start way back at the beginning. Well, it’s interesting. I don’t hear anybody really tell me Mike is, was so quiet and stuff, but I guess.

As a, I am a natural introvert. So now thinking back, I don’t like big rooms, a lot of people, and I normally sit and observe. But yeah, look, I’ve been on my own since I’m 15 years old. I always say I’m a survivor of a really tough parent divorce. And I ended up in a vocational school because back then it’s like you’re either.

fit for college or they’re like, just felt like I was going down a conveyor belt and it was like college, no, you might, you’re probably a plumber or an electrician. And so I went to a trade school and I became an electrician by trade. And then I ended up in the world, you know, I had a mortgage by time I was 19 years old. That was, think it was, you know, it’s funny about interest rates today. talk about back then in 1989,

I had a mortgage, it was 18 % interest. And I’m thinking people are freaking out over seven, 8%. I’m like, I was 18 % in nine years. I think I paid off $1,000 on this thing. And I started working for people. And I thought my boss was an idiot. And I figured I could do better than him. I’ll just start my own electrical company to find out.

I was an idiot just like my boss. You think you know, but you don’t know any better. And I struggled. So everybody listening, I understand struggle. I struggled for about 10, 12 years. I couldn’t hire people. I didn’t understand customers. Seems like nobody had money and everybody complained about the price. And one day I had a couple turning points, Gail. One was my son was being born. He’s 25 now, so this goes back.

ago and I remember going home my wife was at the hospital with my son and I remember putting together one of those rocking like gliding chairs so my wife could do the breastfeeding thing and stuff and I remember probably about 11 o’clock at night gal I sat in it and I built it I just broke down crying I was like I’m gonna be just like my dad I’m gonna work myself I’m never gonna be around for anything

And that was one of my big turning points that something had to change. And I don’t know how it came about, but the enlightenment was there must be somebody that figured it out. Just like there must be someone that figured it out and I have to go pay them and learn from it. So to give people a faster track here, the next 10 years of my life, I built a

plumbing HVAC electrical company in New Jersey from under a million dollars to $32 million in a 10 year period. I had 200 employees, 165 trucks fixing people’s stuff. I sold that in 2017. And then in 2014, I wanted to make a stand. I wanted to change the world. And all my friends were struggling and there’s nothing worse than getting around family or friends, gal.

And they’re like, how’s everything going? And I’m like, oh, I’m great. I’m making a lot of money and I don’t have a mortgage. And I’m like, how about you? And they’re like, horrible. Life stinks. And I was like, I gotta change this. So in 2014, I built a coaching company called CEO Warrior. I started, I coached over a thousand business owners. I had over 20,000 trades people come through my training.

And I sold that company in 2020. So that gives you a little bit, not where we are today, but that gives you a little bit of background for people. I understand growing, I understand struggles, I understand lawsuits, I understand the economy recession of 2008 and Y2K and pandemics. I get all of this. So in all of these situations, here you are, you’ve struggled, you’ve gone through all these difficult challenges.

And obviously, you were smart enough to get coaching, smart enough to get help, and then you started your own coaching business and of course built that to a very successful and profitable business as well. I think it’s really interesting because you have walked the walk, you’ve done all the things that you teach, which is awesome. And I remember recently, and I can’t remember the whole story, but you had posted something not too long ago, which I picked up.

I it was so humorous about how somebody asked if you were certified as a coach and then you proceeded to tell them, well, yeah, I’ve built a company, I had the company of 200 and I don’t know exactly how you said it, but it was so funny. And I was thinking to myself, oh my gosh, you know, here’s the perfect example of someone who has learned, who has gone out and has sought the resources and has changed his way of doing things so that he can succeed.

What do you think is different about your approach versus a lot of people’s approach? I’ll give you two things that I think are very, and it’s funny to say that about the story because the other story I was in Wells Fargo years ago and the woman like first, she’s just like, I’m bothering her. This tattoo guy needs something, right? Like, you know, the world is so quick to judge and she starts typing on the computer and then looks at the bank account, looks at me, looks at the computer. What do you do?

And I told her and she goes, what college did you go to? And I said, the college of common sense. And the woman still couldn’t even get me by time I was done. But I learned two big things. one, how do you get an answer to what you’re struggling on? You create a question. So what is the question you’re dealing with? Number two, ask somebody way smarter than you the question and

You know, I was sharing with my brother about a year ago, even the last two years alone, Gail, between my wife, my son, my team, we’ve invested over $300,000 a year in our own education. And my brother said to me, he goes, you build and sold two big companies. Don’t you know everything? And I said, you know what? I know everything and I know nothing all in the same day.

And I said, the day I think I know everything is the day it’s over. It’s going to start to unwind. So I believe if everybody just writes down what’s the question and my goodness, Gail, I do a lot of training. So I’m on the lot with a lot of people and you know how it is. You say anybody have a question and people they stare and I go, even if you don’t know the question, ask this one question and everybody write it down. What’s the question I should be asking today? There you go.

There’s the question. You all now have a question for her. What’s the question I should be asking? And if people do those two things, get the right people, ask the right question or ask them what questions should I be asking? Life’s going to change for them. You know, it’s so interesting. I’ve had some interesting conversations in the last few weeks with some of my clients. And one of the questions that came up recently was I was talking to this one client and she was.

very upset and very emotional about things. And I think it’s just been a really tough time for her. And sometimes people are so emotional they can’t even come to a question because they don’t know what to ask. And so I love that, that you gave people a question to ask. But I also think that what was really interesting, and maybe I’d love your opinion on this, what I was observing in the conversation was that she was…

thinking that she reads a lot, she listens to lot of podcasts, and she feels like she’s smarter than everybody, but yet she’s struggling. So I thought this was really interesting, and my thought was, especially as I went back and thought through the things that she hadn’t applied from what we had taught, that a lot of people think they have achieved knowledge and expertise because they’ve listened to things or they’ve read things, but they haven’t taken action.

So I’d love for you to speak to that. Yeah. Well, I think people gain knowledge. I’m not sure everyone gains wisdom. we’re knowledge is going to become because of the technology evolution we’re going through with AI and all this knowledge is going to become pretty much useless and wisdom will be a superpower. The other thing is this world of comparison effect.

I think this is causing more probably addiction and depression than anything in the world because you’re on Facebook and you’re seeing your friend from 30 years ago that you thought was an idiot in school and now they’re married to the most perfect looking guy. They have a beautiful house and they vacation and on Facebook you’re going what happened to me right this person they got they got lucky and

The other thing is I don’t listen to things like that today. If it’s entertainment, well, normally my wife and I, my beautiful wife and I have been together since we’re 15 years old, Jennifer, so it’s 39 years. So yeah, we watch Netflix series for entertainment, but I don’t just consume, and I hope everybody will write this down, I don’t consume information that does not apply today.

Which means if I have a culture problem, I only focus on things that improve culture. If I have a marketing problem, I only listen to things that are going to help my problem. So with the podcast world today, I love all these things. But the thing is, make sure you’re listening to solve the one thing. Otherwise you’re gaining more knowledge and you’re not gaining wisdom. And how do you take action on knowledge? You take action on wisdom.

I love that. Yeah, I think that’s a great distinction. So let’s get back to you selling your businesses. You’ve sold two so far and that’s a very challenging process and only 20 % of businesses ever sell. So you have done it successfully and we have multi-million dollar businesses. talk to us about how that all happened and why you decided to sell.

What the things were that you learned through the process that you’d like to share with other people? What a great question in this I I hope this becomes one of the most viewed episodes for you guys. Me too. I don’t believe anybody sells a company. I believe they sell themselves into a bigger and different future. When I was growing gold medal, like I said, I had a lot of friends that were struggling.

That company was 32 million. ran itself for the last five years. I didn’t have an office in it. I had 200 employees. I loved the people, but it just happened. I loved changing the industry better. So I sold myself into changing because especially plumbers and electricians, these guys, no one goes, I’m so excited today. The plumbers come into the house, right? They have these.

notions of what he looks like and they have these notions of what his life is like and I wanted to change that completely. So I sold that company to sell into this new world called CEO Warrior. And in five years, I made such an impact in that blue collar space of plumbers and HVAC guys. Matter of fact, in the last 36 months, Gale, almost 80 of them

have sold their companies, which is life-changing. It’s legacy-changing. And again, the pandemic came in and I made an impact in this world and I said, who’s struggling now? And people were struggling. They didn’t know how to navigate life through the pandemic. They didn’t know how to navigate business and thinking. So I sold that company because I sold myself into a bigger future, which is…

What we have today, which is food dog group, which is life, business and wealth by design. Because if you don’t have it by design, you have it by default. And some of the things I learned is everybody is going to, let’s not use the term sell. Let’s use the term exit. Everybody’s going to exit their company eventually. You’re either going to exit by selling it. You’re going to make money. You’re going to exit it. I hope not. None of you listening by going out of business, you’re going to exit it because you die.

and then I hope that doesn’t happen for a long, time for all of you. You’re gonna exit it because you decide to, you know, give it to family, but you’re gonna exit it eventually. And I think people don’t ever look at the timeline of what are all the different ways I might exit and prepare for that in advance. And I didn’t prepare for the first one, but the second one, I prepared for an advance. And then this company today,

I always tell people like, finally me and my wife, we we made it full circle. We made it back to what I would call our soul’s purpose, which is to remove suffering and help people have life, business and wealth by design. Because if you go back 30 years ago, my wife and I used to hold out of our house, we did not have a big house. We’d bring 50 people in on a Friday night and we would do empowerment events and break boards and fire walking and

We never charged anybody anything and we’d feed them and we did that. And then I started growing companies. did less of that to come right back to we’re changing humanity. I love that. Yeah. And the changing humanity is really about changing mindset and belief and so many other things. So talk to me a little bit about the core principles behind what you’re doing.

Yeah, so a lot of people, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about mindset because, you know, my grandfather and grandmother used to point their old crooked finger at me. It’s all about your mindset, you know. And I was thinking back in time and I was saying, wait a second, my dad was a Mason and he used to pour concrete. And when concrete settles, strong. doesn’t change. And that sounded like mindset, which sounded like mind stuff.

I don’t think it’s about mindset. I believe it’s about mind growth. Love that. This is what everybody’s craving. And that’s why I wrote a book called Mind Power, because I wanted to share with people that a lot of the phrases and things that they heard and hear today, they might help some, but what if that word holds them back? Like think and grow rich. I was speaking to 3000 people and I said,

How many of you read Think and Grow Rich? And the hands go up. It’s like they all have a badge. It’s like they have the tattoo of Napoleon Hill on their arm. I read it. And I go, OK, keep your hands up. Now, keep your hands up if you’re rich. And 99 % of the hands went down. So I said, well, wait a second. If the book is so amazing, you’re also proud you read it, but you’re not rich. I don’t know. Is there something missing in the book? Is there something missing inside of you?

Is there a strategy or a timing? But let’s be clear, the book doesn’t change anybody’s life. You’re thinking about the book or through the book is what’s gonna change your life. And until you have mind growth, you have a great significance, but you don’t have great success a lot of times. Yeah. And I think the definition of success, obviously you have a different idea of what that is for you and for other people.

And I’d love for you to talk about that because I don’t think some people understand what success truly is. And again, it’s, I think somewhat subjective. Yeah. You know, my wife and I were driving the other day and we, I will tell everybody listening, I have a great balance between chaos and like I would call it in my life. I have a great balance between heaven and hell every week. Like

It’s balanced. And we were driving because, mean, we have a 22 year old daughter, a 25 year old son, anybody that’s having kids, you’re nodding your head. When they’re little, it’s little things. When they’re big, it’s big things. And then I was thinking, I got this one deal that went south, millions of dollars. And as I was driving with my wife, I said, you know what, with everything that’s going on, I’m just so glad we’re driving together.

We were just going somewhere and I just looked over and I’m like, this is everything right here, no matter what’s happening. So I think if you could look at success as, you know, getting to the point of no matter what you want or what you desire that you could sit in a state of just grace, like you could sit in a state of just going, I’m excited to be alive. Because if you think of like,

the Florida thing and people losing houses and disease and addiction. So that’s my definition of success. I know a lot of people want to say it’s money and business and health. I just feel it is a state inside your mind that tells you that you’re just excited to be alive and you want to be alive as long as you possibly can. And healthy at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so interesting because I’ll

talk to my husband sometimes. were making a drive yesterday. were building a new house on our way out there. He just looked at me and said, we are so lucky. And he says that probably at least three or four times a week. And he feels very grateful that we have the opportunities that we have in our life. And I think about how that is such a simple thing. And I think his parents brought him up to believe that the simplicity of

the relationships, which is not necessarily simple, but the relationships are everything. if you have a, if things are relatively good in your life, just, you have to appreciate where you are at that very moment because not all people have that situation. A lot of other people have many difficult things to deal with. Yeah. And, and you know, I don’t know about the word luck because I believe you’ve created your luck.

You’ve made decisions. You did things that other people don’t do. And I’m also a firm believer. I believe, Gail, there’s a lot of like old beliefs that I think also hold a certain generation. Like I still say goodnight to my kids every night. My son’s like, when are we saying goodnight? He lives in Maine now. We get on Zoom with his girlfriend. And normally I’m like,

showing them my eyeball and FaceTime and stuff. I’m like pretty, I’m silly like that. And I think those things too, it’s those are the moments that mean everything. And when you look back, when I look at the biggest chaos that I had a decade ago, it really is nothing today, 10 years later. It’s very tiny. And most of the, I always tell people most of your pain and suffering is like,

either trauma, guilt or shame, that you’re still living like it’s today, but it’s been gone for maybe a decade for most people. And you don’t have to live with that. We’re in a world where people created these identities today and they’re living the identity and the identity is not serving them anymore. So how do you let go of the trauma, guilt and shame? Yeah, I’ll give a quick way,

One of the ways is when you when you could see it as balanced, you know, I am around a lot of, you know, professional people and experts like you and they do this gratitude exercise. And I’m a believer that the gratitude exercise, the way most people do it is is actually dangerous. I think it hurts them. Most people are grateful for everything that’s good that’s happening, which is a one sided fantasy.

And so when I go to bed, I do a gratitude exercise. I look at everything that went amazing and I’m like, I’m grateful for that. Then I look at everything that was not amazing and I’m like, I’m grateful for the crack in the windshield, the flat tire, the traffic and the meal and they put the wrong cheese on the burger. And I go back and forth on those gratitudes until I feel like I’m leveled out.

And then I do a gratitude for the future of what didn’t even come yet. So if we pull that back into, what we’re talking about here is that a lot of people are inside their mind, what they’re struggling with. They only see the downside. Now, let me share a story. My mom, this is probably six, eight months ago. It was last summer. She said to me, we were at a, we lived down the Jersey shore.

which is great right now because everybody leaves, right? So it’s only like locals now. It’s like we own the beach now. And my mom said to me, Gail, she said, sometimes when I listen to your videos and you talk about being on your own at 15, I feel really bad. And I was like, Mom, wait a second. Don’t hang on. Let me share something with you. And I said, Mom, you see it as a bad thing that created independence.

It created drive in me. That experience helped me have the endurance and strength to scale and sell two large high eight figure organizations. you know, she’s a mom, so I’m still not sure she got it, but I got it. I didn’t see the downside. I was equally able to see the downside and the upside.

And if everybody can equally see both sides of it, don’t live with guilt and shame and traumas. They start to just extinguish away. just someone listening, just try it with something simple today. Now the world, you have to protect yourself because I’m from a generation where that generation didn’t have much of a filter, Gail. They’re like, looks like you’re bulking up a little bit.

I’m like, is that a kind way to say I’m looking fatter? Right? Like they have no filter back then. Today, I think they’re, people are a little conscious maybe, maybe just a little bit, but you know, people want to embed their shames about, you’re going to eat all the cake? You know, it’s like that game of Thrones, I think where it’s like shame, shame, you know? So yeah, you could balance it out.

Well, that’s a great exercise for people to do and I’ll have to try that myself. Yeah. I like that. Well, you never learn anything really from the things that go well. It’s always from the things that are hard. 100%. Yeah. And I appreciate when things go well, but for a lot of us, we have a lot of things that don’t go as well as we’d like. So we have lots of opportunities to really change our thoughts about that and take that in as a lesson.

I love that. And Gail, the thing I check myself every day with is that thought empowering me or disempowering me. Because let’s say you don’t have enough money in the business or you’re struggling to get clients and all you keep repeating is I’m struggling and people aren’t buying and people don’t have money. Well, you’re going to disempower yourself and that’s the only reality that you can live with them.

versus turning around and saying, okay, I see there’s someone, I’m reaching out, someone’s gonna say yes, I know I’m the best in the world for them. It’s the difference between chaos and certainty. And today, the more you can live in a state of certainty, the more confidence you have and the greater you’re gonna get to what you desire in life. The more chaos, and especially in a world of polarity, you’re saying,

This is unfair and it’s the economy. No, it’s not. is a, everything everyone sees in the world today is human behavior and it’s being driven by, they want to say it’s driven by everyone else. It’s driven by us. If we all change, everything changes. Everything changes. That sounds simple. in saying something that simple, how do you do that? Yeah. Well, you, I believe in playing

you know, we each play our part. We each play our part. When you play your part and you’re out there, I don’t contribute to drama. I don’t do drama. And being an influencer, because I, you know, I have decades of a following of people, you know, every now and then someone wants to come and, you know, they want to give you their Facebook wisdom of why you are horrible and make no sense. And I just say, thank you. You win.

You win. I hope you feel good today. I’m great about myself. I always tell people like I curse every now and then. If you don’t like it, pray for me. I’m perfectly fine the way that I am. So I think if everybody just wakes up when I go to bed, my last gratitude is I say, yeah, if you let me universe, you let me wake up tomorrow. I won’t waste that day. I will do my very best to serve people.

I will give it everything I got. Just let me wake up in the morning. Let me wake up. Let me see my wife. Let me see my kids because there’s no guarantee. And I think when you frame this in a way, I’m so excited to be here with you today. We know each other since 2015. I mean, look at this. This is like, this is life right here. Whatever else is happening, it’s happening because, you know, I don’t believe things happen to you.

I believe they happen for you. You just don’t understand why it’s happening. My wife and I just said it the other day. saying, what are we being balanced at right now? Like, I’m like, I don’t know, but I hope we’re balanced already, because I don’t want more of that chaos that’s happening. And I think, Gail, a lot of people out there, when they see people like us and influencers and people make an impact, they think you live in a land of butterflies and rainbows and skittles. And I’m like,

No, we have the same things. We just don’t let those similar things break us. That’s all. It’s not easy to shift that thinking though for many of us. And I’ll include myself in there. Sometimes I get stuck in my own little pity party, hopefully not for too long, because I’m an action taker. But it’s to me, and this is just me, my first response is, okay, well, this

isn’t exactly great, so what can I do about it? What is the step I can take to move past this and make this a better situation? So that’s always in the back of my mind because some days are just hard and it’s really hard to see the positivity of this situation. But for me, it’s all about getting to action, do something, and you’ll get some feedback and then you can make another shift. But don’t sit there and feel sorry for yourself because it won’t solve the problem.

But I’d love your opinion on that. I don’t believe that there’s any positive or negative, good or bad, right or wrong. I believe there’s only the definition you choose to give it. And if you think about that, then you get to stop a minute and pause and say, OK, what is this really? Now, my fail safe is I ask questions of smart people every single day.

There’s probably not a day in my life, don’t, I have four different coaches, I’m in four different types of mastermind groups, and I am the ultimate, not only contributor, I’m the ultimate leader of asking a question. What do you see? What don’t I see? How would you feel if you’re in this, we just got a weird lawsuit the other day from a 1099 employee.

which is a subcontractor trying to act like he was an employee, subcontractor. And I’m like, okay, what do you do? Go to smart people. Has anybody ever experienced this? How did you feel? What did you do? Did it get you in a funk? If it did, how did you get out of the funk? And it’s like, I want to solve things so quick. And the way I do it is I find out there’s probably anybody listening here. You don’t get the badge of honor if this is the first time somebody experienced it.

So you might as learn from somebody else and get past it quickly. Get back to happiness as fast as you possibly can. That’s great. So let’s talk about your current business, Food Dog Group. And you started that a few years ago. I watched you get that rolling and I watched your posts over on Facebook and your wife’s involved and you have a lot of things that you’ve been doing to help a lot of people. What do you think is the

biggest impact you’ve been able to make on people and why is that? You know, we created the food dog name. My wife and I and our business partner, Aaron, we were sitting at a restaurant and I’m a boutique brand builder gal, but I’m a builder of movements. I don’t want to build anything for money. Money will come. I want to build it because it’s a movement that will shift things.

And food dogs, if anybody doesn’t know what food dogs are, they’re mystical like lion dogs. They sit outside castles and stuff, and there’s a male and a female. And when we were sitting there, I said, you know what? And they’re over 5,000 years old. I said, we’re gonna grab something that is powerful in strength, but very balanced. Because everybody has masculine and feminine energy. It just depends on the balance of the two.

And I believe what we’re doing that’s making the biggest difference besides we’re helping Life, Business and Wealth by Design is we have a lot of couples in our world. And you know, because when I was running business only events, a wife that wasn’t in the business, what was she going to do? I mean, well, I, okay, so every wife was there going, I’m so excited. I’m going to go to a place, learn marketing at a company called CEO Warrior.

Like, come on, like if that isn’t scary enough for a lot of women, like, I’m gonna go there and they bang tables and bang their chest. It’s like, okay, so I had a very imbalanced organization. I didn’t realize it until I made people wealthy and then they were getting divorced, which was never the plan. And then I was making them wealthy and then they weren’t getting healthy because now they have no more money problems. So they’re going out and eating and drinking all this. And I was like, man. So what we did was we created

an organization that can help where men and women, couples or individuals can come together and learn and grow through a balanced approach so that they can improve their life. If they have a business, improve their business with the goal to get to wealth and have a legacy. I don’t know how it is for women, but I’ll share on a man’s perspective. If you look at your legacy,

Most people don’t know. And I wonder if you know, like, do you know your dad’s dad’s dad’s dad? Most people don’t know. That’s only four, four away, which means in three or four, you’re not even a distant memory of anybody. And I was thinking, wow, is that what this is about? Like.

You’re just gonna like my kids, kids, kids, kids won’t even know who I am. And that motivates me to create not only a brand and create an impact. And we have a target, not only for the impact, our immediate targets to impact. So thank you for having me on. It’s to impact 1.2 million people or more by 2030. And we want the brand to impact people’s lives.

and people might be interstellar by then for the next thousand years, thousand years. And I believe that makes us different. And we have a world of experience because, you know, my wife’s in the business, my son’s in the business, I have a partner, we have a team of 17 people, and we work with them every single week. We’re their board of advisors. So if you’re gonna buy something, sell something, you’re struggling in your mind,

And if you want your life to go faster, well, you you get your mind, I’ll say, get your mind back to where it was. Because Gail, a good friend of mine said, probably over two decades ago, he says, and everybody might want to write this down. He said, you’re born perfectly fine. Life has a way to make you un-fine with the hopes in your life to getting back to fine. So if I summarize food on,

We want to get you back to find as fast as we can. Love that. Well, it’s great. And I’m curious too, and I’m sure part of this is your wife, but who is your greatest inspiration? Wow. Well, there’s so many. I’ll give you one that might surprise a lot of people. And I share this story because I feel it’s impactful. My dad, he was a great inspiration of a strong man.

And he passed last year in November and you know, he was holding my hand a couple of weeks before he passed on and hopefully this isn’t too sensitive for anybody, but maybe it’s a good memory of who you love. And he said, you know, Michael, I’m so proud of you. And I said, thanks, dad, that feels good. But I told my dad, I want you to know something. I’ve been really proud of me a long time. And he just looked like that was one of the most magical things.

One of my first inspirations is myself. I inspire myself and I challenge myself. But after that, my wife, my dad, my mom, my son, what an inspiration. 25 years old, author two books, coaches over 40 people, helped create Decca Millionaires at 25 years old. My daughter at 22, like so.

Probably the other answer nobody gets is every single person has been an inspiration for me, from the person working at the grocery store to you, to the listeners, to people on social media. I’ve never met, but they did a post. I’m inspired by every human on this planet. That’s so beautiful. And it’s so interesting. And I know that you have said before, I’ve read this in a couple of places, you don’t drink, you don’t do drugs, you’ve never done those things.

You’ve been faithful to your wife. You have a wonderful marriage. You have really just focused on being a good person. And it’s very clear that you were centered and grounded at a very early age, at 15, to have found your wife and then to still be together after all these years and running these businesses is amazing. So congratulations on that. Yeah. And don’t make it sound rainbows and skittles again. Never. Yeah. We’ve never done.

I never did drugs or alcohol my whole life, but being on your own at 15, you really only have two choices. Be a statistic or prove the world wrong. And that was one of my goals, prove the world wrong. A relationship only goes that long because you’re really good at arguing and resolving arguments. We still get into stuff today, me and my wife, like, because I, she says, don’t forget to.

switch the clothes and push this button on the dryer. I can’t ever remember the button to push and I never put the dish away in the right spot. So we’ve learned how to do the dance of understanding each other. you know, I believe everybody in a relationship that’s growing together, they don’t have to grow the same way, but if they’re growing together, they won’t grow apart. And that’s something we’ve been conscious of.

our whole life and you know, I want to live a really, really long time. It’s the only way that I can impact the world. I’m pretty excited about the consciousness being able to pull me out and put me in a robot. I want the coolest robot. Like I want my mind to be in the coolest robot ever. So I’m excited for all this wildness you see and you know, they say every household

in the next 10 years, there’ll be more robots in houses than cars on the road. So everybody knows I’m calling my robot Ninja. And I’m pretty convinced like the people that drive by with like loud cars, I’m gonna have my robot go chase it down the road and stuff. So I’m excited about all this world. It’s gonna have tattoos on it. I know that. of course. I already got some ideas of the tattoos this robot’s gonna have. It’s gonna be so, so cool looking this thing.

I know it scares a lot of people, but you know, I met a woman down here because the beaches right down the road where me and my wife live and she she was turning 90 something. This is about a month ago. And I’m like my dad. I’m in the grocery store. I’m the guy that’s talking to you in the cereal aisle or something like I just talked to everybody. And so I’m talking to this woman and you know, she’s been around before cars, before gasoline.

And I was like, imagine then people were worried about cars. They were worried about, you know, washing machines, refrigerators, and then cell phones and internet. And I’ll just tell everybody like evolution has as many upsides as downsides and fear and it doesn’t help anybody because at one time

I mean, I’m glad they have electricity. I’m glad. I’m glad I have a toilet bowl that flushes. I’m glad I don’t have to go to a building and crap in a hole. I am so glad. My grandmother said the Sears catalog was out before toilet paper. They used to use, can you imagine this? So you know what? I don’t fear all this. I love all of this thing. And as humans get stronger together.

We’ll create a more sustainable and healthier and then we’ll become interstellar. And I’m already trying to figure out how to get food dog on Mars and stuff. So I’m in the long game. You can call up Elon and tell them how you can do that. I’m working on it. bet you are. Well, we always like to end our podcast with asking our guests about three things they would like to share. Maybe three takeaways, three ideas that we talked about today or maybe.

didn’t even talk about, but you would like to share with our audience. Yeah. Three things that I would like to share is one, if you’re in a relationship, just don’t, don’t give up. Just don’t give up. Embrace the wildness of your partner. They’re, they’re not there to give you, they’re there to give you growth and vice versa. So that’s, that’s number one. Number two, your health.

Like you got one shot at this and I realized it’s tough. I don’t do sugar and I don’t do gluten no more. And I’m an Italian guy. Like how does an Italian guy go gluten free? Like it’s ridiculous, right? But your health is important and people are counting on you. And then number three, I promise you, no matter what your situation is that you’re in life, no matter what’s happening, there is a way out of it and there’s a way forward.

And if you just, if you ask the right question, the right people, the life that you desire, it’s, it’s not, it’s not that far away. I promise you just read the book, three foot from gold or acres of diamonds. If you’ve never heard of it, just read those too. And you’ll find out it’s right there. Your greatest future is already built. It’s just waiting for you to catch up to it. So I wish all every, all the listeners amazing success and extremely long and

healthy life. You are a beautiful human being. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Boom.

When builders and interior designers work together, magic happens. A well-built and well-designed home is a win-win for the builder and the homeowner. If you’ve never worked on a new construction project, you may be wondering how to tap into the high-end luxury home market. Start by educating yourself about what a builder needs and the value you bring as a designer.

In this episode, Gail talks with Brad Leavitt, president of AFT Construction in Scottsdale, Arizona. Founded in 2013, AFT Construction specializes in custom luxury homes. A key selling point for their properties is their meticulous attention to detail in every aspect of the home.

Given that some designers have found some high-end luxury clients have become more demanding and more difficult to work with post-pandemic, Gail asked Brad what his experience has been with this type of client. Brad said that by and large their clients tend to be collaborative, but there are some who are very demanding and want to be in control of the project. He attributed some of that to the fact that projects nowadays take longer to complete and at a higher cost. Clients want to be sure the end result lives up to their expectations.

Gail asked Brad if his firm works with interior designers. Brad replied absolutely. “I won’t do a project unless there’s an interior designer,” he said. “There’s a value the designer brings to the look of the home, to the feel of the home.” Usually it is the client who hires the designer, but Brad said his company has also sought out designers to work on projects.

For designers who are interested in working on new construction projects, Brad said they should start by building a relationship with the builder over a period of time. This could involve some face-to-face meetings and sharing some tips or industry information as a way of demonstrating your value. Get to know what the builder’s pain points are and how you can alleviate them.

Brad also talked about some of the technology he has introduced into his firm to streamline processes, improve document control, and facilitate coordination between the builder, designer and architect working on a project. He has found QR codes to be especially effective.

Wrapping up, Brad offered three pieces of advice he received when he was younger and which have guided him throughout his career:

For more details and insights, listen to the entire podcast.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s12e7-shownotes

Mentioned in This Podcast

For more information about Brad and ATF Construction, go to the firm’s website at www.aftconstruction.com.

Brad mentioned a construction management software his firm uses, called Buildertrend. Among other functions, the software can produce the QR codes his firm uses for document control.

Another construction management software Brad mentioned is Bluebeam. Bluebeam helps construction teams connect office and field through an easily accessible single source of information that can be updated on the fly.

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Creative Genius podcast, Brad. I am so excited to have this conversation with you today. And I’d love for you to start by telling us how you became a builder. That’s a really good question. I originally grew up in San Diego. My dad and uncles were all electricians. My grandfather, when he retired from the Navy, started electrical companies. So, you know, I grew up blue collar working in the trades through high school. And, you know, I definitely hated it when I was a teenager and kid. Like it just

You know, it’s really hard work, you know, being at school and then over the summers working, although San Diego is not a bad place to be doing construction, that’s for sure. But I realized how much I loved it as I got older, you know, 18, 19, I realized I loved it, went to college, studied construction management and moved to Arizona in 2005 and worked for a, you know, production build at first, always wanted two luxury projects and shortly thereafter worked for a luxury builder and…

you know, was with them five, five and a half years and, uh, you know, really grew the appreciation for the industry a lot at that time. And that was, you know, pre-starting AFT and the company I have now. So. Okay. Well, and I think this kind of ties in, but I know you said that one of your biggest challenges you might want to share with us what you had to overcome to get where you are today. Yeah. I think there’s a lot. I mean, the reality is.

Being young, mean, one thing I’ll start is being young in construction. When I first started, there’s something to be said about gray hair and being open. mean, not to jump too fast, Gail, but we work with designers on every project. And I know the design perspective is like we’re in a male-dominated industry. I’m female. So they have that roadblock. Even from the male side, being young male as you’re in a management position and PM running a project, that’s incredibly challenging.

There’s just, you know, it’s, I don’t want to say ego industry, but there definitely is, it’s more technical than people realize, and it’s very challenging, and there’s a lot of things to manage. And so there has to be a tremendous amount of coordination. There has to be a tremendous amount of education. And the more that I understand of everyone who’s involved in the building process and their scope of work and what it takes for them to complete and, you know, the predecessors’ success for those who follow them and coordinating that, you know, it’s going to bring value to me, just like our designers, which I know you speak to, Gail, that…

you know, the more they can become familiar with the builder side of things, like the more successful they’ll be in their career path. And so there’s, you know, it’s a very tricky industry and customer service is challenging and clients can be challenging. And, you know, you’re just battling, you know, so many different angles. Well, yes, absolutely. I think people probably under us made a lot of industries, interior design as well, because it is, is so detail oriented. It takes so much to do.

a really great job of it. having worked with a lot of builders over the years, I can honestly say that there have been a handful that are really, really good at it. And then there are some that are, they just shouldn’t be doing it. That is true. And I could tell you from a general contractor side, I mean, it’s no different than some of our subcontractors. Some of them are phenomenal. mean, very, very talented. They understand they’re great communicators. And then we have some that are just not great.

know, communication is such a key part of really any business, any relationship, but you know, in construction, it’s a big separator. mean, there’s something about construction that really brings out some of the poor communicators out there and it can be really challenging. Well, tell us a little bit about what types of projects you build. Yeah. So we, it’s interesting how that pendulum has changed. I mean, I’ve, I started AFT with a business partner of mine back in 2013.

so we started 11 years ago and you know, early on we were heavy commercial. did a lot of commercial that was, I did a lot of commercial, my background and had a lot of relationships in that industry. And of course we were doing residential, you know, remodels and powder bathrooms. And I always wanted to get into the luxury custom homes, but going back to kind of the origin of this conversation, Gail, I mean, being fairly young when I started my company,

no one’s just going to hand over the keys to a $10 million build, right? To some young kid who doesn’t have a long resume. So there has to be this path of projects and success and thought leadership and quality and everything that goes with building a business, that credibility. So over the years, that pendulum would change. It was less commercial, more residential. We were known for a few high-end projects that were nationally published. really put us on the map and social media kind of.

played a role in that as well as with the growth. And now, as you asked me the question today, I mean, as it stands right now, 100 % of our projects are high-end luxury residential, projects that range from $3 million to $25 million per project and range in square footage up to 35,000 square feet. So I mean, it’s definitely on the high-end residential, and it’s not that we’re opposed to commercials, just as of today, it’s all residential. Well, and I’m sure part of that is economically driven.

there are so many people that have been affected in the commercial market lately that some of those projects are just not coming through just because of funding. Yeah, you make a good point, Gail, because as interest rates change, which they did a couple of years ago, it makes a big impact because the reality is in the commercial world. And I’ve done a lot of development in the past. I I still partially dabble in development, even though if I’m not building it at AFT, I’ve invested in other real estate here in the Phoenix market.

The problem is with cost high, labor high, material high, and then interest rates high, there’s only so much you can charge for land leases, for rent, for selling a pad that’s developed to a big national retailer. so it does limit that commercial footprint. mean, if you’re building a multifamily project, they can really limit that back end. there’s so much risk that, it’s definitely slowed down, not across the board. mean, there’s still a lot of commercial activity.

depends on what industry you’re in. But to your point, pandemic changed things. We had a lot of people moving to Phoenix from all over the US, specifically California, Washington, Oregon, a lot coming from that region. And of course, the Midwest always to have their winter homes here in Phoenix. there’s always been a good market for us in this location. That’s great. Well, what are some of the biggest challenges you’re encountering these days with the building process?

Well, I wish I could say that things have slowed down so we have more labor gale. But the problem is I think across industry it has slowed down, especially in Phoenix. mean, we definitely have not us at AFT, I mean, across the board. I mean, there’s been a slowdown. But the problem is so many of our trades are aging out, right? I look at my father and uncles, right? And as they’ve aged out and they were highly skilled in the trades and our plumbers and

You know, there’s so many different industries that are impacted as they’re aging out and not enough youth are coming in. We’re starting to see that change. mean, myself, many others, I mean, we’re very passionate about, you know, letting the younger generation know that they can bypass college and not just bypass, but there’s actually a career that if college isn’t for them, they can have a tremendously successful career in construction. so we’re seeing more youth come in, but we need more. need

more skilled labor. so the to answer your question, skilled labor, mean, that’s definitely the biggest deficit we have right now. I can only imagine and aging out and yeah, of course, especially because I forget what the number is something like 1500 people a week are turning 65. And so yeah, for sure. And there comes a point where you can’t do things physically after a while. So

when you have those people that have that many years of experience, it’s really, really hard to replace that. Yeah, to your point, I mean, it’s very physical. And that’s the thing, if you’re installing pavers, I mean, here in Phoenix, we’re putting in a thousand foot paver driveway up the hills. I mean, that is intense labor being bent over and lifting, know, installing tile, framing a house. I mean, these are traits that are very tough on the body. And there’s a skill set, too. And that’s the thing. I mean, if you’re looking at trim carpentry, right?

You know, even plumbing, I bring that up, but know, plumbing’s become so complicated with all the different brands and fixtures. one thing I love is what the designers come up creative. You know, we have wall mount fixtures and we’ll have, you know, integrated sinks, you know, built out of countertop material. I mean, it’s incredibly complex and every bathroom is different. And so there is a skill set. And when you have someone that maybe not as skilled and they don’t know how to read a set of drawings or design drawings, it can be

very cumbersome on us as a general contractor for sure, or the designer. I’m sure. Well, let’s talk about working with clients because you’re dealing at a very, very high end. So with dealing with them, are you finding their behavior has changed over the last several years? What has been your experience with them? Yeah, and maybe I’ll ask you the same question, Gail. I mean, you can answer that after I do how it’s been from your standpoint.

I do feel that it’s not overall. mean, it’s almost 50-50. And 50 % of our clients, they’ve built before. They understand the process. Typically, the clientele I’m building for, they have built very successful companies. They’re very successful entrepreneurs to be able to build a home that we’re constructing, fortunately.

And so they have a great admiration for the project management and the systems and having a team dedicate to the project. Like that part is very beneficial, right? And it’s very collaborative between the two. And then there’s some that maybe don’t understand or we haven’t set clear expectations. And that’s where we can have to work through and negotiate throughout the project. But to answer your question, I think

The biggest challenge we have goes back to projects still take a long time to build. They’re not as fast. know, a home I’m building now is probably 40 % longer to build than 2018. And we’re only six years from that, but it’s still 40 % longer to build the same exact house. And cost wise, I mean, you’re definitely over 50 % more cost than 2018. And so that’s just in five, six years.

a home is much more expensive, much longer to build process, much longer. And I think that becomes really tough for the clients is to understand what building costs are today, you know, with cost of material and labor and inflation and everything else. It’s just, it’s a different market. And so it can put a strain on the budget and the timeline. And, know, those are definitely two of the biggest pain points for our customer.

And you mentioned earlier that you work with interior designers on all of your projects or most of them? On every one, yeah. And I think people that have listened to me kind of know my stance here, which is kind of interesting is that I won’t do a project unless there’s an interior designer. And I’ll have clients that’ll… I had a client recently that said, hey, Brad, we know what we want. We make decisions quick. And I’m like, that’s great. But if you don’t have a designer, I’m not your builder. So, I mean, we just really…

understand the value and the asset the designer is to us as a builder. So what specifically would you say is the real asset of the interior designer on the project? Sure, I mean, I can speak quite a while on this. mean, at the core, I’m not a designer. I’m colorblind. So I’m open about that. And not that that’s related to what the house finishes. But if we have a design book from our client or from our designer, you know, and this design book gives us I’m a cost plus builder.

I’m open book, cost plus, and so the value add just with the design book is that I have clear definition of what I’m building. So as a builder, for me to price the house properly, to build a proper schedule, I have all the information. I have the architectural plans, they have all the engineering and they’re, you know, we can layer them in Bluebeam, the technology we use. I have an interior design book where now I know termination points of tile. I know how it’s going to return. know.

the exact takeoffs I need from my cabinetry. I know where the drawers are, and I know the accessories that go in, and I know where the doors are and the cabinet hardware. I know shower head heights for my plumbing fixtures. I know lighting. When I’m trying to bid lighting, I know the chandeliers that are being specced. I can look up how heavy they are. There’s so much that goes into this. And Gail, here’s the core that I think most builders miss is so many times if you don’t have clear information.

there becomes this finger pointing. The product’s installed and one simple example, you’re putting in a barbecue with a countertop and the overhang doesn’t match and the customer looks at you and says, I didn’t think it would look like that. Why is the overhang not farther? Why is it maybe not in? I’m in a bump, you know, myself when I’m sitting on the stool at the barbecue top as someone’s cooking and we’re sitting outside grilling. Well, it’s really easy.

When we can go to set of drawings and say, no, here it is, it’s pretty clear. It called for a 14 inch overhang. That’s what we have. These are the stools that are specified from our designer, the FF &E. They slide right in like we’re good. What ends up happening is when you don’t have a diesel set of plans, I’m playing defense the entire time. So who pays for it? I’m a cost plus contractor. So when there’s a mistake or the client says that I didn’t know how this will look or I didn’t understand that this would be the end result, well, who pays for it? You.

the client, you paying for that or am I paying for that as a builder? Do I that cost? But then you look at building schedule. I can build a house 20%, 30 % faster if I have a design book because I’m not chasing a client saying, hey, what kind of interior doors? And this has happened. I mean, this is real life examples for Miguel. So five years ago, actually, it was probably six years ago, pre-taking the stance that we’re only going to have an interior designer, we have a client. We’re at drywall stage. And the client decides,

We’re asking for our interior door spec, right? And we’re drywalling the house. And we’ve been pushing on them for two months now for our interior door spec. And they decide we want kerf jam. And I’m like, OK. So kerf jam doors, that means I got to wait 10 weeks from the vendor to get these built. And I have to put the house on hold a complete stop because I have to put the jams in so my drywaller can come back and kerf them in and tape and texture like.

If they were standard door jams, my drywall, can go in, he can just drywall to the opening. I’ll put the doors, I’ll set them, and then later we’ll come back with trim and it’s fine. And so those little things come up that really delay me as the builder and then, and I could keep going, you know, how do you fill in your home? Resale, right? You know, there’s value. Yeah, it’s a luxury service, but you’re gonna save money because I can get you more competitive bids. If you don’t, if I don’t have a design book, I can’t send it out to three tile companies. We’re gonna have to.

send you to one tile shop and design it and then figure it out and we’re open to their pricing. So hopefully answer that enough, Gail, by me, I could keep going. There’s so many reasons why we have to have a designer on our projects. Well, I love what you’re saying because that is so important for designers to talk about this with the builders that they’re trying to work with. And they don’t often know how to approach the builder and say, here’s my value. Here’s what I do. That’s why I wanted to bring that up.

Yeah, it’s funny you say that because my team, it’s not that they’ve been trained. They’ve just lived this firsthand for so long that if I were to come to them and say, we’re doing this project without a designer, they’ll shoot me. They’re like, Brad, what are you doing? We’re not doing this project. And the way we coordinate and use technology and QR codes, which I’m sure we’ll get into, there’s so much value to that information. Information is key. To me, it blows my mind that as a builder,

You know, we build from plants, we build from drawings. We are the builder, right? And, you know, I’ve been trained and maybe it’s because going back to my history, a funny story, Gail’s, when I first started, I was out of college and I was working at this amazing $300 million hotel resort that was being built. I was a PM there and they had this amazing interior designer, Beth McGee, who’s here in town. And I always credit Beth because I’m this young 25 year old kid, right?

I was making decisions on these termination points. And she looks at me and she’s like, Brad, you have no authority to make this decision. You’re just the builder. You’re not the designer. And I look back and laugh at that now only because she was so direct. But at the core of it, yeah, she had a very thoughtful design. She’s had years of education. She’s traveled. She knew exactly the look she’s going for. And I wasn’t involved in those meetings. I didn’t in the selection process.

there’s value that designer brings to the whole look of the home and to the feel of the home. And it’s up to me to execute that. And the only way that I can execute as the director and the conductor of this project is by having detailed drawings that are accurate for my designer and architect. And then from there, you know, we can execute. And I would assume if you’re working with designers that you’re probably working with architects on all projects as well.

Yeah, same thing. over the years, mean, we definitely have just like design, there’s levels of architecture, levels of designer. But I think at the core, we do push back with the client, you know, to make sure they understand the value that I think architecture is a great example, because we see such a delta in pricing that they’ll come to us and be like, hey, this draftsman is just freezing math, 10 bucks a foot, but this architecture firm is 20. And you know, it’s easy to sit in front of the client and say, hey, here’s the difference of drawings you can get have like

25 sheets or 150 sheets, right? It’s a level of detail. then, you know, what happens, this goes back to my countertop example, what happens when your draftsman who’s not using bin modeling hasn’t figured out the mechanical in this modern home where there’s no trust space and where we got to redesign your ceiling, who’s paying for that soffit, right? And who’s, you know, and this has happened a long time ago where the trusses intersected the staircase and it didn’t operate. And there’s a window height.

issue there. And so there’s just things that are caught that, you hey, you’re going to spend 50 grand more maybe in architecture fees, but you’re going to save that on the back end. And it’s the same thing with the conversation we have with our designers. Well, it’s really great to hear your perspective on this. And I think also that is so important to have a great team dynamic.

And so the relationship with the architect, the builder, and the designer has to be really good. And I’m sure it isn’t always that case, but probably at this point in your career, you’re just working with people you know. Yeah, I mean, it is on occasion that we’re introduced to a new designer, a new architect. I mean, it is still fairly common with the size of our company and the amount of projects that we do. And it’s very common. Like right now, I have projects with

mean, I have one right now, the architect and designer are both out of state and they’re not even in the same state, they’re in different states, right? And so that’s pretty common that we’re working on that. But to your point, Gail, I mean, there has to be a lot of communication, there has to be a lot of coordination and there has to be a lot of open dialogue. And whether our teams are remote or whether they’re local, going back to my role as the builders that we’re the director, we’re not the decision maker.

with a director and the minute that there is a conflict between design drawings and architectural plans, time out, let’s talk to the teams, let’s figure this out and it’s up to us to identify it and not just move forward and make the decision ourselves. That makes sense. What does not work in the relationships between these three? Without dwelling on communication too much, I think that’s a real important part, right? It’s just understanding who point of contact is and how we can get decisions somewhat quick.

but I think it’s where, ego’s involved that you’re kind of running. And what I mean by that is we’re very involved in pre-construction and it’s really important that we’re coordinating with the architect and the designer. Cause budget is so imperative. The last thing we want is where a house is designed and then you go to price it. And it’s like, we’re not even close. And there has to be coordination between all the parties. And so we have had it where we’ve sat down with some designers and architects and said, here’s our parameters.

We kind of want to stay with this brand, this spec, this prototype, because this is going to align with their budget. And then we kind of move our ways and they’re going through design and showing things to the customer. And they end up picking a product or brand that’s like 3X of the one we talked about. And that makes it tough for us because we’re essentially the messenger. mean, for us, we can only price what we’re given. And when that price is high, we’re the ones with that.

you know, with the client looking across the desk ready to pounce on us. And so that’s always been challenging for us is if there’s not, I don’t want to say lack of communication, but we’ve communicated and then it still doesn’t, you know, either notes aren’t taken and vice versa. You know, I think for any designer, I mean, we’ve found it very imperative that all of my, you know, field team, have iPads in the field. And I have a stance that, if you don’t take notes, you’re fired. I mean, it’s, it’s that.

You need to be taking notes, you need to be on your iPad. I mean, it has to be charged, you need to be taking notes. And so in fairness to our designers and architects, when they come out to the field and they point something out or they’re directing or we’re having a meeting and the clients making changes, if we’re not documenting that with meeting notes and red lines and updates and as builds and all the things that we should be doing as a builder, yeah, that’s a problem for our designers where going back to it, I mean, we’ve been really big in QR codes. And so the benefit is, you know, the reality is we’re building

luxury homes, there’s hundreds of changes, very common, even with the full design book. I mean, this is a very common part of the process. so having the design book linked electronically, and we’re making sure that we’re always working on the latest and greatest drawings and they’re linked to QR code, that QR code doesn’t change, it’s in the house, but that’s always linked back to the latest and greatest. And so it’s imperative that our team is always…

communicate with the designer to make sure we do have the latest drawings and they are set online and they are linked and then, you know, we’re building to that. I think that’s so smart. I remember that from the conversation you and I had prior to this podcast. And I thought, wow, that is a great idea because the doves in the days before QR codes were really used, we were constantly having to update the design books and it was really a challenge. So I love the

the fact that you’re using technology so much. it’s technology is definitely a big part of what we do and the QR codes I found it does solve it because we we probably struggled like most. mean, we have this incredible design book and sometimes it’s in the three or four inch binder. I mean, there’s a ton of detail. Sometimes we have two of them. I mean, to be honest on some of these big houses and it’s really easy for this information to get lost and misplaced. And so now with QR codes and we use Build a Trend just being open as a software we use.

So having Builder Trend and linking that with the QR codes now, really our designer could go into the house, scan it with their phone and be like, yeah, they’re up to date. You know, they’re using the latest one. So it definitely allows a lot of checking between everybody. That’s great. How should an interior designer approach a builder and begin a working relationship? And what are you looking for in particular in these relationships? So it’s really good. I think there’s a few options there.

I put in my shoes, like for me, when I started AFT, I had a really hard time, getting some of the well-known designers and architects to call me back, right? That just here’s someone else is trying to sell me something, trying to get on my and, and in fairness, they have their core people they work with. They’ve had relationships for a long time. And so I took the stance that, you know, at the time, well, I’m going to use social media. And so I would post every day on social media on LinkedIn specifically. I’d say, okay, Gail.

I’m going to send you an invite on LinkedIn. You’re connected to me and I’m just going to post every day. And so through LinkedIn, through Instagram, I would follow these desired architects and designers that I wanted to work with. And I would engage for sure. So I wasn’t soliciting them. I wasn’t just DMing them and saying, hey, call me, message me. it was just, I’m going to follow you and I’m going to comment and I’m going to continue to comment and continue to support. Like that’s a beautiful design. I love that kitchen, know, whatever it may be.

And on my page, I would continue to post dot leadership. Here’s why, here’s the process, right? Here’s the QR codes we’re using. This is why we use QR codes, right? And so I was always trying to present value and never be salesy. Like if anyone goes to my Instagram, you’ll see it’s never like, Hey, call me. You know, we built custom homes, call AFT. Like it’s always very much this incredible project designed by X designer and here’s the details. And so you’re always trying to bring eyeballs to it. And so.

My strategy was always bring value and case in point, there would be times that leads would come into me like, hey, Brad, the public would start following me and be like, hey, we want you to build our home. Perfect. Gail, I have a great project for you. They don’t have a designer. So if you can bring a project to your builder as a designer, if you can show value to your designer by speaking to their pain points, knowing their pain points,

I tried to learn the pain points of architects and designers to go to them and say, I’d see them at networking events or at functions, hey, I know you’re dealing with this. Here’s what we’re doing. And so I think it’s across the board and a technique I’ve seen from some of my subcontractors is the same thing. They’ll go and follow me. They’ll support me. They’ll, you know, maybe it’s a weather resistance barrier company or a concrete company and they’re just supporting, supporting, supporting. And then six months later, it’s like, hey, you know,

We have this option. I think this would be, can we get on your bid list? Can we do this? And they’ve already built a relationship. So relationships are key. And one thing I’ve seen too is a lot of the vendors may have a good relationship with certain builders and designers. And they’d be like, Gail, I know you know AFT. Like we’ve had a great relationship with you for a long time. We’re an architect. So say it’s an architecture firm you’ve worked with. Hey, we’d really love to get in front of Brad. Could we get an introduction? And so I’ve seen a lot of partnership intros that way where it’s like, hey, we have a good relationship. They’re great.

I think you guys should chat. That’s great. OK, well, also you had talked about earlier, of course, the QR code and using iPads out on your job site. What other types of innovations have you brought into your building process? It’s a really good question. So Bluebeam is software that we use and Bluebeam is for anyone that’s not familiar. It’s heavily used in the commercial world, commercial construction. mean, fortunately, I have a lot of our team that has worked in commercials, so they

You commercial is not like the wild wild west at residential is, know, the technology information. And again, the projects are different, the scale is different, the costs are different. You can have more overhead. you know, you had that opportunity of us in software. So, Bluebeam is great because we can layer plans, we can have red lines, it really documents everything. We use Build a Trend, that’s our project management software.

All the design books we don’t do selections and builder changes being open. We take all the design book information from our designers and put it into Build a Trend. It’s unlimited cloud and so then we can link our QR codes to Build a Trend which go to the job site and of course our finances. Everything’s through Build a Trend. So our clients have an owner portal. I mean being open, but cost plus they contract their budget 24 seven. They know exactly the project stands makes it great for designers because they can track it. You know there’s no fun.

Not that, I mean, there’s a lot of things around your business, but just in the market we’re working in, it works good. Just that symbiotic relationship between pricing and options and change orders with the designers, the things come up. So, so build a trend, blue beam, you know, the QR codes I mentioned, and of course that integration of accounting in all of our projects. Hmm. Well, it sounds like you’re really organized, my kind of guy. We try to be, mean, luckily I have a couple of people obsessed with document control, so they’ve done a great job, trained some uniformity, you know, throughout.

You know, all the different projects that we have. That’s great. I understand you also have your own podcast and I’d like to hear about that. You rebranded it and you changed the focus. Tell me about that. Yeah. So for the longest time when I started the podcast, probably for the first three and a half years or so, it was the AFT construction podcast. And what was interesting is even over those first three years, I mean, no question, I mean, it was industry related, but it was very,

I mean, it’s catered to entrepreneurs, right? I would have a lot of people speaking about company culture and business and startups. And of course, I’d have building science and designers and architects. you know, a lot of people related to our industry, but I also had a lot of professional athletes that will come on, right? You know, I think there’s a lot of correlation between professional athletes and mentality to be an accessible entrepreneur, right? The crossover is very similar. And so having

You know, UFC fighters and NBA players and NFL. mean, there was such a diversity of guests. You know, I had had people from Stan Sox and Traeger grills, you know, the smokers and so people that are really outside of construction. And I felt that being the AFT construction podcast was just maybe limiting my base of listeners and viewers to the podcast. And so I rebranded it to the Brad Levitt podcast and it’s still heavily tied to.

The industry is very industry related, know, design, architecture, construction. have a lot of designers on there, a lot of architects, a lot of builders. So think a lot of people find value. have photographers on there. I have athletes still. but the podcast is definitely more towards running a business. A term that people probably are tired of me saying is that I’m a business owner that happens to focus on construction. And at the core, that was probably something I just didn’t understand when I started AFT and knowing

how to run a business and how to create company culture and how to a breeding environment of success. That’ll be successful across all industries. And so the whole goal of the podcast is to really help anyone. mean, case in point, Gail, it’s kind of cool as there’s a nurse that pulled me aside. I went to lunch with some of my team and this lady walks up and she’s like, hey, Brad, I’m a nurse at this local hospital. I’m not.

in construction, but I’m fascinated by your podcast. I actually listen to it because I think there’s so much value in just company culture and listening to your clientele and with the guests. so that’s been the whole goal is just to help people take six, seven nuggets from each episode. And that’s been my goal. I love that. Well, and I think you’re hitting on a really important point, which is culture. Culture is everything. And if you don’t have a strong culture in your business,

Then you have turnover, you have unhappy clients because you have inconsistency of service. There’s so many things that go into having a great company culture. Yeah, there is. And if you have a great company culture, you actually can attract the ideal client. You can have successful projects. I and as I’m sure you know, Gail, mean, if you as you hire people, they’re an extension of you and you have to make sure that they align with the culture and values that you’ve said and who you are as a person.

Absolutely. I 100 % agree with that. Well, thank you so much for your time today. And I’d like to end with three takeaways that you’d like to share. Sure, just in general, my. Yeah, OK. And maybe from an advice perspective, early on when I first graduated from college and this is my first year of working professionally, there was this sales agent at the production.

community I was working on his name is Martin. don’t know. Just amazing. So generous. Like he was such a great mentor. you know, to be open at the time when I was graduating in the production world, know, sales, the sales team was kind of up here and the contractors were down here. There was not really, you know, that don’t want to say level playing field. They looked at us different, a lot of them or just, you know, you know, means to an end, if you will. But he was very different. He was like one of us in a way, not just always like, you know, getting to know us and

motivating us and he always said and he’d always say Brad generosity precedes prosperity and Yeah, it’s my it’s something that I’ve always tried live by and he was always generous like always giving back always It’d be my birthday and I’m you know young poor kid just graduated college and you give me a handshake with a hundred dollars in it like just for no reason I mean just so nice and in every aspect of his life is generosity precedes prosperity and It’s something that I’ve tried to live that you know a lot of people like Brad why you do the podcast? Why do you go public speak? Why do you?

you know, why are you give advice without charge of port? I just think that, you know, the more you can get back, I’ve never gone without. I’ve been very fortunate and the more relationships you built, like being generous with your time and advice and knowledge, whatever may be, you know, that’s always going to come back in full fold. And that’s something I have six kids, you five daughters, one son. so they see I teach them that all the time, all the time. Like we talk about it. We live it like I mean, that’s a big part.

I think that another good thing that I learned early on was chase experience, not money. And when I went to do the Monteloussie, I mentioned this 300-minute project, I definitely was underpaid for the role I was in and the amount of projects I was running and things I was coordinating. But the experience is unmatched, right? Working with high-end design firms and architecture firms and commercial banking and

building this hotel resort that is a known staple in Phoenix, in Paradise Valley. And so Chase experienced that money because in time that money will come. Like if you get the experience, know, and surround yourself with good leadership, good mentors, right, that all pays itself forward. And I think probably, I mean, to hit three for you, think something I learned when I was 19 from another mentor was, you know, leave things better. Things are better because you were there, whether it’s, and just a small example he gave, I remember being

in like a public restroom. He was just done speaking. We go in and he’s washing his hands and water spilling on the sink as it does. And he grabs some paper towels and he wipes it down. And in every way, he always wanted that everyone was better from their interactions with him, whether your co-workers are better, whether the industry is better, whether your kids are better. I mean, I think there’s a lot of value to those three things. think their life philosophies that have made a big impact on me. And hopefully, you know, that’s something I can do myself. So I love that. That’s great.

Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast and we appreciate your insights and especially I love your last pearls of wisdom. thought those were great. Well, thank you, Gail. I really appreciate having me on. My pleasure.

You don’t last 20-plus years in the interior design industry without learning a few valuable lessons along the way. While every interior design firm is unique, the principles of sound business management and marketing still apply. You can learn them the hard way, or you can learn them from others who’ve learned the hard way. The latter path is less of a steep and bumpy road to long-term growth and success.

In this episode, Gail talks with Katie Decker-Erickson, principal with Color Works Design, a company she founded in 2007. Although she started out focused solely on designing with color, clients kept asking her to include an ever-increasing number of interior design services. After working in residential design for several years, she came to realize she preferred commercial projects. Today, with a team of between 15 and 20, her firm specializes in hospitality, senior living, university facilities and housing, and multifamily housing.

Gail asked Katie what are some of the lessons she’s learned over the years about how to operate and market her business. Katie said first and foremost, you have to let go and be comfortable delegating work to others. To grow, she said, you need a vision and a team to execute on that vision. “It’s all about letting go to the right person for the right reason. You can’t do it all on your own.”

Furthermore, she said, “Figure out who is your target market and go hard. If you’re trying to be everything to everyone, you’re nothing to no one.” Take care of the clients you have, she added. They can become clients for life. Also, take care of your team and they will stay with you over the years.

Your business should not become a burden. “Your business should work for you, not you work for it.” Do some self-introspection, she advised. Figure out where is your happy place—i.e., what fulfills you and gives you joy—and pursue that. Let others do the other stuff. 

Over the years, Katie and her firm have experienced some good times and some not-so-good times. Just accept that these are normal business cycles. “Don’t be afraid to let your business expand and contract,” she said.

Gail and Katie also talked about how AI might impact the interior design industry and how Katie is using it now in her firm. They also discussed the importance of curating your firm’s culture. For those insights and more, listen to the entire podcast.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s12e6-shownotes

Mentioned in This Podcast

For more information about Katie and her firm, go the website at colorworks.coach.

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Welcome to the podcast, Katie. I have a special guest today, Katie Decker Erickson, and I am so excited to have a conversation with you today. You and I had a good chat not too long ago and you’ve been doing interior design for a while now and I’d love to know about how you got into it.

That’s so kind of you, Gail. I’m so honored to be here. And yeah, I don’t know a while that’s like a kind way of saying someone is seasoned, right? Which is code for old. And we’re now at the age where we’re giving back in our industry. Yeah. You know, it’s funny. My journey to design was very unique. it wasn’t traditional. Like I woke up my junior year of high school and decided I should do interior design. And that is what I love. And I’m going to go pursue that in college. I actually didn’t come to interior design until I was in. Gosh, early twenties.

It was after I had my master’s degree in business administration that I went I want to start a business and I love creating and I need to use the left and right side of my brains or my brain to feel like satisfied at the end of the day and It was funny. I was actually fixing and flipping houses at the time or condos and I was so frustrated that I couldn’t find somebody who just did color I just only wanted someone to do color. I didn’t need a full design experience and everyone wanted

to sell me on the whole package and I just thought, heaven help, there’s gotta be a better answer. So I reached out to, I started doing some Google research and found the International Association of Color Consultants and said, I wanna reach out, wanna figure out how does this whole thing work? What do we do? And went and got certified and then started helping others. And really that’s how Colorworks was born back in 2007. It was just out of the desire to focus on color. it was for someone who hadn’t,

gone through a four-year formal program. It was the perfect gateway because I wasn’t focusing on every aspect of design. I was focusing on a singular aspect. And that was so lovely because it just gave me a really nice way to dip my toe in the pond. And then as our clients kept coming to us wanting more things, which I’m sure so many people can relate to on your show, you just keep adding to your services until you get where you need to be and what satisfies them.

And so you’re now doing residential as well. Well, great question. So I lasted about three years in residential truthfully, Gail. And then I quit. my gosh. To all you residential designers out there, you have a job a billion times harder than I do. You know, it was really challenging for me because of my MBA. It’s a blessing and a curse, right? But I approach it from a business perspective. And so there were so many wives that wanted a best friend to have.

with and talk about pillows. And I love being a girly girl, but not when I’m on the clock doing eight to five. Like I want to move projects and get things done and have decision makers and no budgets. And I was just like, I didn’t have the emotional bandwidth for it. So to the residential designers in your audience that do, I humbly bow down because, and then you get the spousal component, right? And I’m just like, yeah, I can’t do marital counseling.

I would have gone to school to get a degree in that if that’s what I wanted to do. And like the fact that you’re fighting over the sofa, I think we have bigger problems here. I mean, just a hunch, but it’s just, so was funny. I actually started segueing into commercial about three years in, and then I just kept going down that road until eventually I was just full-time commercial and multifamily, which is what I love. And then that’s now kind of what I coach too and helping other designers who are saying,

Gosh, I can relate to every part of that. And I love hospitality or I love, hotel motel or I love, just figuring out how do we get there and how do we get you into the space you want to play? Cause I think so many times we just think there’s one space and design, right? Like I’m an interior designer. It’s not like I’m a drafter. I’m a space planner. I’m a sorcerer. hear that those exists, but they’re much less hurt. feel like, they’re just as valid, know? Well, that’s interesting. And so because you didn’t have.

a design degree if I heard this correctly. A hundred percent. Okay. And so you have an MBA. Yep. And so obviously you’re smart. that’s all. No, I got really bored. I needed something to do and I hadn’t met my husband yet. Let’s not, let’s be perfectly honest, Gail. Well, you don’t do an MBA just because you’re You’re sweet. You’re very kind.

Okay. So commercial design. that’s a whole different animal and learning how to price that. did you learn how to price? Cause you didn’t come from a design background. Yeah. It’s a very fair question. was a lot of trial and error to be honest with you, but I also had some clients in the beginning who came to me and they’re like, well, we have a quote for this, but we’d rather work with you. Can you make that work? And I’m like, sure. And then a couple of those come across your desk and then you start

talking to your trade partners about what can we do and what accounts can we set up and how do we make this work? And you just kind of navigate your way through it. I will say our model is pretty fluid though, because we’re so economically based. Like right now, interest rates are high. It’s been a hard year to make deals pencil straight up. And so one thing we did as an effort of goodwill to our clients, because we always joke that we love to acquire clients and not lose them. We collect clients.

But as part of goodwill and as part of marketing, we said, we’re not going to raise our rates in 2024. And we did a whole marketing campaign around that and said, hey, we get it’s a hard year for you guys. We get that you’re having a hard time making it pencil. These transactions aren’t going the way you want. The remittals you’re wanting to do on as-builts aren’t quite as advanced as maybe you want. We’re going to work with you because we want to hang with you for the long haul. Things like that, I think, make a huge difference. And so we’re constantly watching the market.

I’m super excited as of this recording, hopefully next week, I’m praying interest rates get cut because all that really does affect our market on the commercial sides. And I think it’s a lot more quick than it is on the residential side. Like on the residential side, I think there’s a trickle down component when it comes to working with rates and being in multimillion dollar spaces, it’s pretty instantaneous. Cause if the asset isn’t gonna pencil,

the buyer isn’t going to buy and we’re probably not going to do the value add to it that they initially envisioned. So you’re doing multifamily. You’re doing hospitality. Yep. And so between the two, which one do you like the best? I love multifamily. That’s a great question. I love multifamily. And the reason why is because interest rates have stayed high now for, well,

what we consider high, we really got used to twos, know, the twos were a really nice spot. And then we saw the eights, now we’re hanging out in the sixes, but sixes when you’re used to twos still feel like a really big jump, right? And so what we’re realizing out of that is that a lot of people are gonna be lifelong renters because coupled with that interest rate is the cost of housing prices. I mean, I don’t know about you, but when I bought my house in 2018,

The price of it’s almost doubled. And that just isn’t sustainable for so many people across the country. It’s just not a doable model. So you add that, the cost, the initial purchase price, plus the cost of the interest rate. And there’s a lot of people that are saying, I’m not just gonna be renting when I get out of college. I’m gonna bring my first baby home to this apartment. I may bring a second baby home to this apartment. My elderly parents may be in an apartment.

How do we get this to feel like home? And that’s really my inspiration point and what our team navigates around is how do we create places that truly feel like home? They’re not just spaces. We use spaces that word a lot in our industry and our tech line has always been turning spaces into places. Like this is a place I’m proud to bring my baby home to. This is a place that I’m really excited to move my parents into because it’s going to be small. They’re not going to have to deal with any yard work. it’s easily maintained. And so.

Yeah, we’ve really started. will tell you that really is my passion is we’ve really started designing those spaces of saying, how do we create resident amenity areas and outdoor living and dog parks? Cause how many people don’t have kids, but have four legged kids, right? how do we create those spaces so they feel at home and not just like they’re an afterthought, regardless of what life stage they’re at? Well, that’s a really great,

background about what you were doing or what you do with that particular area and how do you find that to be different from doing hospitality work? It’s a great question. Like we’ll do senior living hospitality. We’ll do university settings. It’s so different because it tends to be more broad. So in multifamily, you’re probably going to have, unless you’re like sitting in downtown,

university campus housing, right? You’re gonna have some diversity, which I really love. So you’re gonna have different age brackets, different backgrounds culturally that are gonna come into this space. How do you make that work in a constructive and meaningful way that speaks across a broad spectrum? Very different than saying we’re gonna design university housing, which we love doing. We love doing university settings, but it’s a whole different vibe and it’s a much more narrow target.

demographic, like we’re working on a 20,000 square foot building out of Oklahoma right now for university. It’s their original hall. And so we’re preserving the integrity of the exterior, right? But we’re taking the interior and completely redoing it to today’s generation and what they’re looking for when they go to choose a school. That’s a very, you’re looking for a four year segment in time. What do they want to capture? What appeals to them? So much different conversation than.

trying to have a broad, appealing multifamily, which is where the challenge kind of comes. And I like it. I like that challenge of trying to make it appeal and feel like home. I’m sure. So how many people do you have on your team now? Great question. So full and part time, we average somewhere between 15 and 20, depending on workload. And so we’ve grown that’s everything from social media to IT to it runs the gambit.

And I always say, and I would be so remiss to not say it here. I stand on the shoulders of giants. I am so thankful for our team. have the absolutely best team and it’s been curated almost over what? Almost 20 years. but each of them is so good at what they do. I am so privileged to pull up a seat at their table every day and see what they’re doing and how they’re doing it. That is such a good attitude. And, and it seems that you have a really good culture from what I’m hearing.

I was, that is so, that means the world to me that you would say that we’ve worked so hard to establish that culture because a hundred percent of the people on our team are remote. We all work remotely creating culture in a remote environment can be really, really difficult. call it getting sucked into our vortex.

We want them to get sucked into our vortex. But yeah, just like we have petals on our logo, each of those petals stands for something, whether it’s we call it care, C-A-R-E, care, ecter, like you care and you actually do have character, kindness, curiosity, and concise. I think concise is a really big one for me as an MBA because I think, and one thing I coach too a lot with designers is we get busy creating, but are we actually profitable? Are we actually meeting deadlines? Are we hitting budgets?

We got to get this concise and dialed in. so we’re taking this client on a journey. How do we do so in a meaningful and successful way to them? and so, yeah, we worked very hard to curate our culture as much as we curate for our clients. It’s very kind of you to notice that Gail. It’s a hard thing to create though. You know, it’s it, we had a culture expert that we talked to and he said, it’s your operating system. You don’t always feel it, but it’s happening and it’s how the, how it works. Right.

Has that been your experience? gosh. Yes. And, it’s really interesting and kind of an interesting intersection for us because we’re a hundred percent virtual and we have been for 15 and a half years. So that’s crazy. That’s way we’ve operated. just, I mean, I have already done the having an interior design office and I don’t ever want to go back there again. I feel every part of that. And my husband has been like, don’t you want brick and mortar? Don’t you want them?

Absolutely not. You know, you may see this cute little top, but I have leggings on underneath this desk, right? Like I don’t feel the need. I love you, Gail. We were so close on the same page. I just don’t feel the need to have to get dressed up and drive to an office to feel like I’m going to be a more productive person. And it’s interesting because my husband and I have debated this quite extensively and he’s like, but how do you create a culture? How do you know if people are performing? And I said,

I think it’s way easier to know if they’re performing remotely because things are either getting checked off and your project management software and deadlines are being met and we’re on standup calls every morning with the project update or they’re not. You’re exactly right. Yeah. I don’t know. Has that been your experience? Yes, absolutely. Our team is, they work hard. Agreed. very, very hard. And we talk about culture a lot. That’s a really big deal for us.

And I just think that that’s so important, but I really want to come back. And now that I know you’re virtual too, this is so cool. And you run a good sized company at this. I think that it is something that I’ve struggled with trying to explain to other designers why they should consider a virtual or having a partial team. You can do it. it’s not, they have the story in their head.

that you can’t make the selections because you don’t have the library. Well, guess what? Almost everything is being sourced online anymore. And if you need something, you order the sample. So you can literally do anything you need to do with Zoom and your computer. And you can be on the beach if you want to. Yeah? preach. I wish I could highlight, italicize, underline, and bold what you just said, because it is the total gospel truth.

And I think it’s interesting that there is still pushback about it. was just coaching, or was a discovery call with a coaching client who I’m gonna see next week. And she is a doll. She has four locations within a five mile radius and her operations manager put us on a discovery call together to say, we started out, it was just my husband and I, it was great, it was fabulous. Now I four locations and I think I might have too much overhead. And I’m like, sister. Yes, you do. You do.

I’m like, we’re gonna have some hard conversations next week. But like, I get that people want a sign, there’s this grandeur and there’s a sign and there’s a designated location and there’s a spot. I get it, but like at the end of the day, to turn on all those lights, create all that water, provide all those paper products, get the janitorial step. I just don’t get how the juice is worth the squeeze. I really, really.

I’m with you. I just don’t understand. And I love that this woman has been successful enough to open four locations and she’s better exact words where I have more locations and more people than ever, but my profit margins are smaller than ever. Yeah. Well, here’s a shocker. I was looking at some of the industry data and guess what the profit margin was on the average for interior designers last year. I’m so scared to know this number. Zero. Zero.

What Gail? You’re blowing my mind. Are you kidding me? Why are we doing it? Well, especially in the million to two and a half million. If you talk about the overall industry, it’s 3%. In the year before that, it was around 5%. And it just keeps going down. So, you you have to really look out where is your money going? Is going to the people or is going to your office? Those are the two biggest expenses. Yeah.

is a hundred percent. That is so startling to me. It’s so scary because those are all the designers I just want to pull in and coach, coach, coach, coach, coach, coach, right? Because I always- this out there, right? Right? I’m just saying. Because we always talk about, want a 40 to 60 % profit margin. That’s what you should be netting out on every project. And if you’re not, when we go through that P &L, we got to talk.

We really have to talk, but I do think a lot of it though, we know our industry is dominated by women. And I think as women, it’s easy for us to say, I’m being nice. Cause I won’t mark that up as much. They’re an easy client. Why? or I’ll just do this as a favor to a friend. Is that what your doctor never, never, never. Right? I’m like, there’s a full price for your friends. Your friends are.

going to be your hardest clients to work with. Yes. Cause they think they have access to you after hours. Right. And the reality is you’re good at what you do. You should get paid to do it. You have years, even though like you shared, I don’t have a degree in interior design. It’s been a lot of learned and bumps and all the sorts of things along the way, but 20 years later, I’m pretty confident in what my team can produce and we’re going to stand on that. And that’s what you’re buying. You’re buying the team and all those brains working for you.

No, you brought up another good one. This is another one where this is a struggle for a lot of designers and they have this belief that you have to be the one involved in your projects or you’re the contact with all of your clients. Well, you can’t do that. You can’t scale yourself. And the only way you can scale your business is by having a team and you have to sell your team. And I’ve watched some of the most amazing designers.

just continue to believe that and they just struggle with not being available to all clients at all times and it’s just not possible. two thoughts on that. I will not regale your audience with singing Frozen, but you have to let it go. You have got to let it go because you will drive yourself nuts. My kids have this beautiful little kids book about Kevin the koala.

and he just clung to his tree and he would not let go and everything’s shifting. They’re like, Kevin, come down and play. There’s all this fun stuff. Kevin would not let go. And eventually they have to chop down his tree. And so he’s going to come down one way or another, right? But he couldn’t come down on his own terms to do it in the way he wanted. And then when he landed there and realized all the fun he was missing out on, it was a real epiphany for old Kevin the koala. But I think we see so much of that in the design world too. Like you’re going to fall, your tree is going to get cut down. Either way, this is going to happen.

Would you rather like set it up so this can sustain and your business doesn’t collapse and you don’t have to rebuild it? Or would you rather have a nervous meltdown? Cause that can happen. mean, one of the things I did when we grew and it has been a great blessing is I just separated my work phone from my personal phone. And every night there’s like this psychological component. I walk out of this office. Well, first I shut everything down.

and I plug in my work phone over at my charger right over there. And then I slide the door shut. It’s a barn door and I walk out and that’s it. And Rome can burn, but I’m not a cardiologist. I’m not saving lives out here. And I’ll see you tomorrow morning when I’m back in the office again. it especially with such a good boundary. just don’t have that issue that you do with residential. Another reason for you not to be in residential, right?

I know I always joke. I’m not the person to talk about. If you’re just like, love residential so much, Katie, you should try residential. I’m like, no, I can coach on residential. I did it. I know all the pitfalls of it we’ll talk about it. And I won’t try to talk you out of leaving it. But if you want someone to be like, Ooh, I love residential too. Let’s talk about kitchen and bath. I’m not going to be your girlfriend. We’ll get the business structured. So it doesn’t drive you nuts because it drove me nuts for three years. And now I can help you with that. but yeah.

I admire, like I said, I admire those residential designers because it’s fun when I coach them. I actually really love them because they’re like, I just really love my clients and I really love seeing them so happy and I love them being in a space that gives them a hug. And I’m like, that sounds so great. And I’m like, yeah, I could never do that. I really admire that you do that. Yeah. that’s so funny. Well, talk about your marketing journey. What has it taken you to build your business? that’s…

That’s complicated, Gail. It’s a really good question. For about 15 years, I taught undergrad and graduate courses in business and even designed marketing courses. And what’s funny is my business doesn’t always parallel what I taught my students. And mostly that was because I held back. So I’m a late to life mama. I’m a late to life getting married. I didn’t get married until three days before my 31st birthday.

And then I had kids, at 30, almost 35 and one at almost 38. So there’s days I’m in bed by eight 30 and I have no shame in my game about that because I am old and a tired mama. but I really wanted to wait until my youngest went to kindergarten before I said yes to interiors. That was one of my big goals because I started this business back in 07 with the hope that someday I would have kids and I’d be able to structure my lifestyle to make room for them.

Like I really wanted to be able to do that. I thought if I get the privilege to do that, I want to have the space and the time to do it. So for a number of years, it wasn’t until right before, was it in COVID that that happened where we turned on the tap to interiors. Our largest client came to us and said, please do interiors. And I said, okay, let’s do it. We’ve been waiting and we’ll do it. And that’s the year we grew 1500%. And it was a year.

Yeah, I was like drinking out of a fire hydrant, but I’d also had, this is kind of the weird part, because I’d had over what? 10 years to think about what I wanted this to look like and taught what this should look like. And then you do it. Right. But once again, it’s standing on the shoulders of giants. You find the right people and you put them in the right seats on the bus and then you let them do what they’re hired to do.

it’s not always that smooth. There’s been a couple of spots that are just boogers to get right. There’s always sticking spots. I don’t want you to think it’s utopia over here with unicorns, but that was a huge, huge growth year to be able to go to interiors. Marketing along the way has changed. We didn’t market a lot for the first 10 years because I didn’t want a huge business. wanted something that was just me because I didn’t want to have to scale. in fact, I just spoke to IDS about this, but when we think about scaling, we always think about scaling up.

And never do we think about what is effective communicative contraction look like and is that okay? And I feel like as women, especially we need to be given permission for that. Like, no, my business isn’t failing. I am choosing during this period to do X, Y, and Z of my life. And then I can ramp up my marketing strategies later, build a better pipeline, try different market segments, all of that, right?

But I feel like a lot of times we need permission. And that is like one thing I love, love to coach too, is you don’t need permission. Your business should work for you. You should not be working for it. And if you’re working for it and you’re on the verge of that mental breakdown and you’re taking all the texts and all the calls at all the hours for all the people, it’s not sustainable.

And some people might disagree with you because that’s what they’re used to. But let’s come back full circle to the marketing and let’s talk about what are some of the things you did to grow your business. Take care of the clients you have, number one. The best client is the client you’ve already got. So listen to them. If they have feedback, take it. It’s not personal. It’s really meant to be a growth point for you.

that take care of the people you’ve got. And that applies to your internal stakeholders too. If you have a team, take care of that team because that team will bring you new clients. That team, right? They’re gonna go out there and promote you. That team is gonna show up for you time and time again and be your best word of mouth that you’re ever gonna get. The other one is figure out who’s your target market.

Are you going after the bougie, bougie clients? Are you going after second homes? Are you in a heavy Virbo market, vacation rentals by owner, right? Figure out what your market segment is and run hard. If you’re trying to be everything to everyone, you’re nothing to no one. You just can’t do it. And so figure out what do you love? What do your clients love about working with you?

and be unabashedly, completely unashamed to go down that road and promote that heart. So for us, because we’re B2B, a lot of our social media gets done on LinkedIn. We go hard on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram are more afterthoughts for us. Yeah, because that’s where our business segment is hanging out.

I’m trying to think as far as more traditional marketing because we’re a remote firm, it’s not like we’re doing flyers and because we work coast to coast, we’ll run 40 to 80 projects. So it’s not like we’re plugged in at our local chamber of commerce and have found our local whatever it may be that applies to our business. It’s more about being involved in the industry in which we’re working. So once you know the industry, if you’re like, I love restaurants, I love restaurant design. Okay.

Go join up with a couple of key restaurant industry groups. Go find out the people out there who building restaurants and go hang out with them. You know, I think that’s the key thing is just know your market segment. Know your target market persona and then go figure out where are they volunteering. Go volunteer there. Become friends with them. Show up with them and they’re going to show up for you. I don’t know. Has that been your experience as well? Sure. And I know when I was running my design firm, was

definitely involved in the community. was a huge part of it. Social media was just beginning right at the end of my time of doing design. So we really did not use social media. So that’s how we found our clients. Yeah. And it worked beautifully. I mean, how many years didn’t you run a firm that way? Right. a lot, almost 20 years. yeah, which is amazing. I think that’s so cool. Yeah, it was fun.

Well, how do you see AI coming into the picture for your company? I love that question. That’s a great question. I love AI. I’m an early adapter of technology stuff. Anything that I think is going to make life easier or better, I’m probably going to embrace. I have two Roombas in my house, one for each floor. I love technology.

AI has been great for us. We use AI for email responses. Sometimes you just don’t know how to word it to a client. And so we do. We use AI. We use it to help us with social media posts. I think it’s going to continue to be a bigger and bigger thing. We don’t use it, I should clarify, in social media posts. We use it not to create visual content. Our content is our content. And I do think that brings up an interesting point about the integrity and ethics of it.

You know, what are you putting out that you are claiming as yours versus what is AI generated? So we use it for a lot of text and content creation in that way, but not for visuals and not for saying that this is a project that we did. I really love the idea. The Wall Street Journal had a great article on this. I want to say a few months back, but how it really helps homeowners dial in the visual of what they’re looking for.

because they can play on that in a way that’s more significant than Pinterest because it’s interactive, right? Like, I really like that mantle, but I want a different ceiling or I really like, and it will do that in real time for them so that when they come to meet with you as a designer, they have a pretty good visual and then it’s the execution of it. Like, how do we actually bring these materials to life? There’s so many different softwares out there right now for designers that are starting to lean into this. It’s gonna be interesting to see where it goes, but I think it is something to be embraced.

and not be afraid of, because at the end of the day, they still need someone to do it. It still needs to be sourced. We still need to double check measurements. We still need to write, but for concept and idea, it’s so great to better understand what the client wants rather than them coming to you with a pillow or a Pinterest board that’s a dumpster fire of division. Anybody else seen those pictures? You’re like, you don’t know why you want, but this is cute. I think it makes it a lot easier on us for sure. I’d be curious what the feedback has been from.

your clients about that? think, well, we just did an industry survey and it was so interesting how few people would answer the question about AI. And you know what that tells me is that they don’t know and they don’t have any opinion on it. So I think that’s pretty fascinating because this is about 1200 people that took the survey. That’s That’s significant. And if only a handful of people answered the questions.

It tells me that there’s very little knowledge out there in the industry about how to use it. Which kind of breaks my heart because I think it is a really great tool and sticking your head in the sand is just not an option on this one. It’s not going away. mean, it’s becoming more and more and more dominant, right? Yeah. I just think that like that’s fascinating to me. And it tells me that there’s a lot more opportunity for education and use of it. But yeah, don’t be Kevin, the koala and

not be open to change, embrace AI, get out there, start Googling it. In fact, you’ve probably noticed if you use Google, it’s already creating auto gen stuff at the top and that’s all AI. mean, everyone’s using AI. your Google Gmail. Yes. Isn’t that crazy? Yeah, that just, I’ve started popping up in mine a couple of months ago and I use it every single day. I do it for every time I’m on a call. just.

start my granola and granola records it and summarizes the conversation, which is so great. Isn’t it amazing what it does and its ability to think and do and yeah, I mean, if you’re still typing emails, I’m like, I’ve told our team, if you’re typing an email longer than two sentences long, you’re wasting our time. Good for you. Go figure out how to use it. And so yeah, we pay for chat GPT, we pay for the upgraded version of it. And I’m like, get busy.

Like just put in your prompt. can be a complete dumpster fire, but it really helps protect our credibility too, which you’re like AI protector credibility, Katie, like tell me more because it’s getting all the grammar and the punctuation and all the problems ironed out that maybe one or two people on our team struggle with when it comes to looking reputable in a business to business environment, especially. And it takes care of that. And it’s a copy paste. I won’t say.

It’s a complete copy paste. It’s like an 80 20, right? Like 80 % there, 20 % editing, but I’ll take the 80 any day of the week. Well, okay. So you’re talking about doing communication with it and we’ve talked about doing it for taking notes, which is great. Yeah. And for doing social media, but what about design? Are you using it for that? We aren’t. Okay. We aren’t mostly because, and it’s not because we wouldn’t, if a client wanted us to, or came to us with a vision for it.

or whatnot, we have not gone down that road. I feel like we know our clients and our industry well enough that we know what they need, what they’re going to tolerate and where their budget is at. And so usually we get it there within the first or second time of design. Like we’ll design it. They’ll be like, these are the tweaks or that’s a complete dumpster fire, throw it out and go this way and we’ll hit it out of the park. That’s like, just cause we’ve done it so long. I don’t know that I feel a need for it yet. That being said,

It’s getting good. It’s getting so good and so much faster and more accurate that I imagine the next year we’ll head down that path. Well, I don’t think it’s going to be something that we can ignore because it just saves so much time. No. Yeah. Cause it’s very, very hard to really be able to iterate on things quickly. Whereas if you can do it through AI, that would be huge. Huge. And I think like you’re going to start getting the.

I’m thinking back to AOL, you’ve got mail and a little, right? Like, and you think about how far back that was and how there wasn’t the interconnectivity. And I’m like, just sit back and watch AI. It’s going to blow the internet out of the water just because once it starts linking to sourcing material, once AI does, and it’s giving, it can import spaces, then give you sourcing material. Then we can order it in. You can check, the rub count look right? Does the whatever, but.

Fundamentally, it gets you 80 % of the way there like it does with text now. It’s breathtakingly. I find exciting. Some people might find that alarming because I go, then we’re in a volume game, right? We can scale, we can grow. We’re not spending as many hours on these plans. I think for a lot of people, I’d be interested in your survey. Was there an opportunity for the people who responded to share if they were scared of it or didn’t use it? Why?

What did they share? didn’t say why they didn’t, but most people were not, they were actually, I think 75 % were pretty interested in AI and they thought it was very positive what it would bring to the industry. I think that the interest is there, but maybe they just haven’t taken the time yet. And it is, it takes time. You have to learn it like any new language. is a new language. But when you think about how quickly you can.

do things, then it makes a lot of sense. A lot of sense. And once you, I don’t know if you felt this way, but I’ll never forget. I was sitting at the bar with my kids and my husband’s like, you’re using AI. I’m like, a hundred percent we’re using it. And he’s like, yeah, you know, he’s more traditional. He’s much more traditional. He’s not an early adopter. And he gave me a prompt based on his work environment.

that was specific to his organization and he needed a historical paper referencing blah, blah, blah, blah. It needed to be three pages and it put it all in. Cause unlike Google, it’s kind of weird with AI, more information you give it, the better it is. So I wrote a nice little paragraph, the three pages that spat out were so good. goes, can you copy and paste and email that to me? And I thought, and here we go. But right. Like, so once you try it, think, especially for these others, designers, like once you try it, it’s so.

It’s like going from Hershey’s to Godiva, right? Like you don’t know Godiva exists. You’re fine with Hershey’s. Like Google’s been great. And then you get to Godiva and you plug in a chat GPT prompt and you’re like, I see now this is amazing. And it kind of becomes, it does, it becomes a drug. It’s completely addictive because you just start seeing those economies of scale and those efficiencies. Is that how it happened for you too? yeah, for sure. Yeah.

And I keep thinking about it and our team uses it quite a bit. And I still write things, but yeah, if I really need to do some research, I’ll just type in chat, GPT and see what it comes up with. And it’s better than Google because it’ll give you way more data, more information. Yeah, it’s great. It’s so good. It is. I, you know, I think that.

The other thing I’m picking up from this conversation is you have to be forward thinking. You can’t be doing things the way you’ve always done them. And, I think you need to look for the opportunity and do the things that other people are not doing. So right now, if some of the designers want to stand out from others, they want to make more money in their business. They need to use AI. So they need to get on board with it because this gives them an edge over many other designers.

And especially because your survey and your data shows that it’s not being utilized. I love Jeff Bezos was on a show a while back and he was talking about decision-making and how he scaled at Amazon. And he, the model he used, and I’m going to bastardize this, so stick with me, but the idea was you could walk into a room and if you can walk out of that room and not spend more than $500, then make the decision and don’t bring it to me because I can’t make all the decisions, right?

And I would say with AI, go down the road. How much of this can be reversed? Like don’t be afraid to try the next thing. And so we told our people, I’m like, guys, I’m not Jeff. You don’t get $500. You get like $200, but go make the decision. And if it’s going to cost the company $200, it’s not worth my time if we have to back out of it. And you intuitively know it’s the right thing to do. And do you know how many of those we’ve had to reverse so far? And how many like $200 expenditures we’ve had?

Zero. Zero. You’re totally right. Gail nailed it. They just needed the confidence to be able to know that they had the power to make the decision. And what doesn’t that change for you as an owner? Because now you’re not like getting asked, can I go to the bathroom? I mean, not that that’s what we getting asked, but you know what I mean? That little stuff that clogs up your day. All of a sudden they’re like, I can have up to $200 to make a mistake. That’s amazing. My number is a little bit higher in our company. I give it up to a thousand dollars to our leadership team.

Don’t come to me if it’s over a thousand. Yes, I want to know about it, but otherwise you can make the decision. yeah, I think that touches on a very important point, which is empowerment. And if you can empower your team to do things and make decisions 90 % of the time, they are going to do as well or better than you will. yes, that’s why you hired them. Exactly right. And if you’ve got the wrong people and you don’t trust them that much, then maybe

Maybe it’s you that’s the problem. I totally agree with you 100%. And like how, don’t know about you, but like when we started having those conversations, my blood pressure and overall happiness went, well, blood pressure went down, happiness went way up, right? Like, because all of a sudden you’re in a space then, or a head space, at least for me, where I could think more creatively again. And to your point about forward thinking,

I had the head space to forward think again because I wasn’t caught up in that minutiae. Well, that’s another important thing. This is where we have, we’ll make this our last topic, but the last topic being that you need team. If you have team, then you can do so many more things. You can grow your business, make more money. And a lot of people still have a fear around hiring because they’re looking at the expense and not what they’re making from having team.

Yeah. Because if you don’t have a highly profitable team member, then you’re doing something wrong. Yes. Repeat that again. I mean, really that’s 120 % true. And I think that we also have this propensity. We’re all creatures of control, right? It’s hard to let go, but you have, if you’re letting go to the right person for the right reasons, who’s proven themselves, let it go.

Like, and realize you are going to be your own worst enemy because your business won’t be able, it’s like a Pyrex container, right? When you’re trying to put the leftovers in from dinner and you’re trying to stuff it in there and it’s, it was, all over. You’re going to be your own worst Pyrex container because your business is going to want to grow and you’re going to need bigger space for it, but you’re going to be the one holding it back. And that’s a really horrible spot to be in. We’ve seen it, especially, when clients don’t have processes in their firms.

when they don’t have their business and their finances in order. But they’re so talented. It just kills me. I’m like, you’re so good at what you do. You just need these few minor tweaks, but you’ve got to be willing to let other people come in and love the baby you’ve created too, because you can’t do it all on your own all day. You will fall flat. So how do you build a sustainable model? like you ran your firm for almost 20 years, and now you’re doing this, which is amazing.

Right. You’ve been in the industry for how long? Because you built a sustainable model. Yeah, a lot longer. It’s okay. We won’t ask for years, Gail. my gosh. It’s so good. Yeah. I mean, it really is about sustainability and also expansion and contraction. And realizing growth doesn’t have, it’s not linear. It’s not a beautiful little graph that they show you on Google. It ebbs and it flows. And some of that is market driven. Some of it’s you driven based on where you’re at with your firm.

But either way, I think you’re dead on. You’ve got to have the team to support you and back you and work when you need a moment to take a break. It still keeps going because it’s a machine and you’re not the only cog in the wheel. Absolutely.

That’s why I got to go on my trip and not get to see the Northern Lights. It’s okay. You come visit anytime, Gail. I’ve got lots of them up here. I promise I will. So we always take you to dinner. There you go. So let’s end of the podcast with the three things that you’d like to give us takeaways for our listeners. Don’t be afraid to let your business expand and contract. You’re still in control. You’re not failing.

Your business is working for you rather than you working for it. Figure out who your market segment is. Number two, who are you going after and go after them with reckless abandoned. Like I said, if you’re trying to be everything to everyone, you’re nothing to no one. And number three, do some sit in the seat of your intuition. Do some self introspection. What is your happy place? What is the place that you think

Man, I could build a sustainable model out of that. I’m an introvert. I don’t want to be out here talking to people and trying to run a firm. I want to be at my machine designing all day and space planning and sourcing. Awesome. But don’t be afraid to have the hard conversation with yourself of where is your happy place and then run after that too. That is terrific. And thank you for those great insights. I think those are great, helpful tools that will maybe spark some interest and some thoughts.

in our listeners. So thank you for that. and thank you for sharing that data with me that those are so many good data points that speak to our industry and where we’re at and our ability and need to grow in some areas, which is a really beautiful opportunity. Absolutely. Well, thank you again for being on the podcast. And it was a pleasure spending time with you. Thank you, Gail. I’m humbled and honored to be here.

Interior design is demanding work, involving thousands of detailed decisions, project challenges and competing personalities. That can give rise to a lot of friction and stress. While you can’t eliminate every stressor, you can minimize them by establishing good project management practices and cultivating mental fitness.

In this episode, Gail talks with mental fitness coach Janine Aurichio. A self-titled “Joy Master,” Janine offers an approach she calls Life Styling that trains interior designers to build the capacity to respond to life’s challenges with a positive mindset rather than getting stressed or upset for breakthrough results in their life and business. “I believe our true nature and essence is joy,” she says.

Gail asked Janine why she chose to focus on working with designers. She said that after working in the industry for twenty years she has come to admire what designers do and bring to the world. “What they do is part science and part magic,” she said, adding “beauty is my core value.”

Janine said that from what she’s seen in her practice the biggest challenges for many designers are twofold. They have an internal challenge of maintaining command over their mind and mindset, in part because they have many demands on themselves and many distractions. In addition, they have an external challenge because they lack or do not utilize a well-oiled process for managing their projects and other aspects of their business operations.

“Good project management leads to more and better projects, more profit and more peace of mind,” she explained. It should be core to every interior design business.

As well, Janine identified what she sees as the three biggest mistakes designers make when managing their projects. A major one is that they think of the client as the center of the project rather than of the project itself. They are afraid to communicate truth to the client for fear of being reprimanded or even fired. They don’t have a plan for executing the project, or they have one but don’t follow it.

Janine went on to talk about how designers can better deal with their internal challenges by learning to manage their mindset. She described a four-step process that she teaches to rewire negative ways of thinking in order to develop positive intelligence. The goal, she said, is to achieve mental fitness, which she defined as your capacity to handle life’s challenges with a positive response or mindset.

Gail and Janine also discussed why good project management is so crucial to the success of a design business, the major types of “saboteurs” that contribute to negative thinking, and the steps designers can take to improve their mental fitness and boost creative flow. Get all the details by listening to the entire podcast.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s12e5-shownotes

Mentioned in This Podcast

Download the Drama-Free Projects Guide PDF here: https://www.yes2yum.com/drama-free

You’ll also find other resources that Janine mentioned on the podcast on her website.

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Today we have Janine Arricchio on our podcast and her superpower is managing design projects. And her zone of genius is the inside job of managing your mindset for peak performance, thriving relationships, and maximizing happiness. And today we’re going to explore the outside in and inside out ways of creating drama-free projects. And wouldn’t we all love that? Welcome to the Creative Genius podcast, Janine.

Thank you, Gail. It’s great to be here with you and your listeners, and I’m really grateful for the opportunity. it’s so great. I love your LinkedIn post or listing that says you’re a joy master. So tell us about how you came up with that title. Yes. Well, my coaching teacher actually gave me that title because I was always so curious and asking people about what brought them joy.

And maybe you’ve heard the expression teach what you need to learn. Well, I am a joy seeker and a studier of joy because number one, for a while there, I forgot how to be joyful. And number two, because I’ve also seen this as the case for many other people, including designers and folks in our industry. And I believe our true nature and our essence is joy. And so I want to help others remember that too, while also giving them.

really effective tools to help their businesses run better and smoother. Well, anytime you can be a good project manager and have a good mindset, think things go a lot better, right? Yes, indeed they do. Well, how did you find this path for yourself? What inspired you? Well, Gail, I think it found me kind of, and isn’t that just how things are a lot of the time? It certainly was not a direct path, but the short version is that I

had a very strong people pleaser or pleaser saboteur, especially as a younger person. And I made a lot of big, important decisions really to please my dad. And so that was as a young person. Fast forward several decades and many great experiences and also some not so great ones. Let’s just say I was ready for a change. I was really unhappy in what I was doing. And it was clear to me that

personal and professional growth was what I was here to do at this time, both for myself and then to teach others. I love that. Well, why do you work with interior designers? two reasons. I’d say one is because what designers do is part science and part magic. And I just relate to that so much. That’s also that’s been kind of a thread in my life. And another is that

Beauty’s been a threat in my life. Beauty’s my number one core value, for sure. And I fell in love with the design community after going back to school and then working in the industry for 20 years. And you all are the beauty makers and I believe beauty can help heal the world. And so I want to help designers keep bringing beauty into the world. And I know firsthand how challenging this business can be and how it can dampen your joy at times.

So to be their best and their happiness and their happiest, I want to help designers sort of rediscover that joy and support them in that journey. Well, speaking of challenges, which ones are the ones that you think are the biggest ones facing designers right now? Yeah. Well, you know, this is a complex business. so I, I, you know, we could talk about that could be a whole nother podcast, right? But of the two.

Biggest ones that I’ve witnessed that kind of relate to this conversation. One is an internal challenge and one is an external challenge. And the internal one you referred to earlier, I you were called it the, I call it the inside job. And that is about, maintaining command of your mind and having a positive mindset, sort of responding versus reacting and doing that. when things are challenging and stressful.

And then the external one is having a well-oiled process, especially for managing projects. And I’ve seen many firms that don’t even have a process. And if they do, sometimes they’re not using it and both are problematic. And, you know, I love the, recent episode on policies, process and procedures. I can tell you’re kind of a process nerd like I am. And it’s not the sexy part of the business, but it’s so important.

It really is. for a lot of people that you mentioned that there are many designers who really don’t do that. They don’t do project management per se. They just do what they think is part of it. And the thing that I think is so interesting is that our job is really that. That’s what we do every single day is we have to manage projects. So if we don’t have a system for it, then how do we run our business? I guess how do we

get them interested in it? How do we encourage them to really embrace project management? What’s in it for them? Gosh, well, it impacts everything. It creates structure that sort of holds things together, right? And gives people, you know, your employees or team members guardrails and on what to do next. It impacts the many relationships that we have that you have as a designer.

whether it’s your employees or team members or vendors, it impacts your peace of mind, your staff’s motivation and buy-in and ownership of the process and ultimately the quality of your output, which impacts your reputation and your ability to get other projects. So I’d say those are some really important reasons to care. so what’s in it for them is more and better projects, more profit and that peace of mind.

which I think we all want at the end of the day. Well, we do want that peace of mind. Sometimes we don’t have that when we’re up at two in the morning and thinking about all the things aren’t going right on the project. Yes. So as far as that goes, what are the three biggest mistakes that designers make with project management? So, yeah, one I think is that, and this might be a little unconventional, but thinking of

the client as the center of the project instead of the project. And that leads to, and I can say more about that, but to me that leads to a second thing, which is I’ve seen a lot of people afraid to communicate the truth out of fear of either not being liked or maybe I won’t get another project or the client will fire me. And when you put the product, when you think of the project as your client,

then it kind of takes that charge out of, you know, having to kind of tiptoe around the client and maybe not speak the truth. So those are two big things. And the third I’d say is not having a plan or having one and not following it. So I just like to say plan the work and work the plan. And it’s not complicated, but it can be a hurdle to get over. So I’m going to add one.

for to do. this is one that I think is probably the people that do project management. You can go too far and get down into the weeds where there are too many details and you’re really getting into a procedure. But the procedure changes for the project throughout. And so really it should be more of a process. So there are definitely differences between process and project. Yes, and procedures.

So it definitely is something that I see a lot of people do where they just get to the point they’re trying to be so perfect that they’re trying to outline every detail. Well, you’ve mentioned it. that perfectionism, that is a saboteur. That waking up at 2 a.m. with the worry, that’s another one. And actually I created, I’d love to offer your guests a free download of a drama-free projects guide that I created that’s got four.

four key tips and four key tools that they can sort of put into action right away. And I think that link will be in your show notes. Yes, that’d be perfect. Well, tell us about your perspective and approach to project management. Yeah, so, you know, as I mentioned earlier, there’s the inside and the outside part. And that really is how I approach project management. And I mean, if it’s okay, think

An example might be the best way to highlight that. So I was working with a client who was struggling to keep projects on track and this was impacting, you know, the project and her team and the client was getting frustrated. We all know that, you know, everyone feeling kind of burnt out and project fatigue. They were running projects very seat of the pants, you know, not having a process to speak of. And so.

You know, first step is creating a simple, repeatable process with clear roles and responsibilities and accountability and documentation and timelines. I say simple because it doesn’t have to be complicated. think to your point earlier about getting in the weeds, sometimes we can overcomplicate it. So, you know, I think starting, creating that simple, repeatable process for your.

company and what’s going to work for you. And that might be a little different depending on different teams. So that’s step one. And then, like I said, plan the work and work the plan while remaining flexible. know, we can’t be too rigid in this business because that will also derail you. And then, you know, there’s the inside part of whoever’s leading the project and really, you know,

I can only speak from the designer’s seat. If they’re leading the project, there’s stuff going on also between your ears. And that’s the mindset part. And so figuring out one, what your role is in sort of the chaos and drama, because we all have a role. We all have ways that we go negative. You know, I’ve mentioned the pleaser and we talked about the perfectionist and there’s that judge or that imposter that comes out. So.

Knowledge is power and figuring out however you’re contributing to the issue is really important. Because at the end of the day, the only thing you really have control over is what’s going on inside your head and in your hula hoop. And when you can do that, then you can develop new behaviors and you can catch yourself and impact the project from the inside out. So when you’re coming into it,

with a more positive mindset and a calmer demeanor, that’s going to move out to everybody else in the project. Yeah, they sense it. If you’re frustrated or having a hard day, it really can’t come into the picture because it doesn’t help the team. Right. And there’s actually a neurobiological explanation for that. It’s called mirror neurons.

So everybody’s nervous system has these mirror neurons and you’ve probably experienced it when you’re with somebody who’s stressed or freaking out or upset. You might start to feel a little like a little shaky yourself. Or if you’re with someone who’s calm and confident and clear headed, you pick up on that too. So it’s just your nervous system doing its job, which is really fascinating to me. It really is. It’s contagious. know that the mirror neurons, it makes total sense though.

Is there a method or a framework you use to manage mindset? There is. And I’m so glad you asked about that because it’s really changed my life and others who I’ve taught it to. And I just have to say as a side note, I was so happy to see the last print issue of Business of Home was all about mindset and talked about the inside job on the cover. I was like, this is so awesome. Here we go. It’s just that.

The more people talk about it, the better. So I use a framework called Positive Intelligence that I did not create. It was created by a gentleman called name Shazad Shamin. And he did many, many years of research to create this. And it’s so beautiful because it’s so simple. And it actually works by teaching your brain how to respond differently. So rewiring.

neural pathways, which are the, you know, the well-worn grooves in our brain that make us respond or react in a certain way. And so they proved with functional MRIs hooked up to people’s brains that when they use this framework, the, the, fear, the survival brain where your saboteurs live actually quieted down and the other areas of your brain that are associated with positive emotions and

calm and creativity, those actually lit up. And so there’s really only four steps to this process. Would you want to hear them? Sure. Love to. Okay. So the first step is you catch yourself going negative, like having a negative emotion or a negative thought. And that’s when we’re being hijacked by that survival brain where the saboteurs lived, anything fear-based. So if you’re frustrated, irritable, stressed out, disappointed,

blaming, feeling shame, regret, any of those. You stop yourself and go, that’s, I’m, you know, being caught by my saboteurs. There are very simple exercises that you learn in this framework called a PQ rep that’s really just keying into any one of your senses. So getting out of your head and into your body. So you do a few minutes of those, which is what gets that neuropathway into your wiser brain.

And then there’s something called the sage perspective. This is step three, that you really have to believe that any situation can be turned into a gift or opportunity. Maybe not at that exact moment, maybe it’s, you know, for bigger things, it might take a while, but just knowing in your heart that, okay, somewhere in here, there’s a gift, there’s a gift of knowledge that’s gonna help me next time.

I can grow my power of empathy or curiosity or creativity and that’s going to help me the next time. Or maybe this problem is going to inspire me to do something I’ve been wanting to do or to redo a process or take some step. So there’s some gift in there. And then the step fourth step is creating that gift. It’s really taking your power back instead of feeling like an out of control kind of victim to a situation.

You know, taking that power back and being like, okay, there is a gift here that I can create. And that’s, that’s the four steps. the trick is like any. Any, anytime you’re trying to train yourself to do something new, you need to practice, right? Whether you’re learning a language or an instrument. so those exercises I mentioned about the senses, that’s, that’s something you do every day. It’s almost like physical.

fitness for your brain. It’s working out your brain. So that’s a daily practice. I can tell you these four steps and even that can certainly help. And then really getting the lasting positive change is by doing the practice. Well, it’s interesting because I’m glad you brought it up because when you said Savatour’s earlier, I thought, yeah, I went through his program. And I did. I,

can appreciate what you are sharing because it was a very good program. And it was a good reminder because I haven’t been doing those PQ reps. I love that. That’s great. How do you root out recurrent drama and stress? I’d love to know that. That sounds so amazing. That’s a pretty good promise, huh? It is. Well, so we were talking about the saboteurs. And if you believe this science or buy into this research that they’ve done,

It’s really those saboteurs and the thoughts and feelings coming from your survival brain that are causing all of your stress and the negativity. And so unfortunately, the human brain is wired for negativity three to one. It’s called a negativity bias. And that was for survival reasons. It was way more important for us to notice a danger, a threat.

you know, remembering the color of the poisonous mushroom versus the color of the pretty butterfly. And so we need to take, you know, we need to do something to overcome just how we’re naturally wired. And so none of this is to make anybody feel badly or like they’re doing something wrong. It’s just the human condition. So getting to know those saboteurs is really step one to being able to

do things differently and change and minimize that stress. And in fact, I can also provide you with a link to the saboteur assessment, which you probably took when you took the class. That’s like, that’s the self-awareness, like, okay, what’s going on here with me? And once you understand the saboteurs and can apply this process, your stress will diminish. And it can be fun if you have a colleague or a trusted

somebody to take the saboteur assessment with and kind of talk about the results because it’s really nothing to be embarrassed about. Like I said, we all do this. It’s really kind of stopping at the source. Interesting. You mentioned mental fitness and I would love for you to define that. Yes, happy to. Mental fitness is your capacity to handle life’s challenges with a positive

response or positive mindset rather than getting stressed or upset or rather than a negative one. It’s essentially having command over your mind. I love that. Yeah. What’s the difference between mental fitness and mindset? Great question. They really kind of go hand in hand. Being mentally fit gives you a positive mindset, right? So mental fitness is this state you can attain.

of being in command of your mind. And so a more positive mindset is the result of being more mentally fit. Interesting. Those are so close, but it’s such a big difference. Yes. And how do we achieve joy and how does that relate to mental fitness? Well, first, I guess I’d like to define joy and how I’m defining it. I’m not talking about, know, 24 seven, you’re skipping down the sidewalk.

know, whistling and throwing flowers around. Joy to me is about being in a place of positive emotion more often and actually at 75 % of the time, at least 75 % of the time, but on balance, being more in emotions like gratitude and wonder and awe and contentment and hope and optimism and inspiration more often than those other

you know, negative emotions that kind of rattled off earlier. So that’s how I’m defining joy. How that relates to mental fitness is, you know, when you’re mentally fit, you, that survival brain is quieter and which allows you to have fewer of those negative emotions and more of the positive ones. And so right there, you know, it’s really about just quieting that chatter.

And the saboteurs unfortunately are very loud and that more, that wiser, higher self, that sage of yours that’s in all of us is a, ironically, it’s more of a whisper, right? So we have to quiet down that committee in our head so that we can get the inspiration and gosh, for designers, be more in creative flow. I mean, when you’re…

you know, I don’t know about you, I’ve never done my best work when I’m stressed out, when I’ve been up at 3 a.m. ruminating, when I’m beating myself up to be perfect, or when I’m trying to please everyone around me and have run myself ragged. It’s like, no, we have to be in a higher place to really let that creativity flow. So it’s really important for designers. I mean, to me, joy, creativity, know, love, they’re all the same.

Well, how do you stay so joyful? I practice. It’s a priority to me. I make it a priority. I do not want to go back to the old ways, at least not for long. know, first of all, big asterisks. I have bad days. I go negative, you know, all this stuff, but I, but I don’t do it for as long anymore. I can bounce back a lot quicker and I can see myself. so, you know, it’s daily practice of just.

waking up every morning and making a decision to, for my thoughts and actions and behaviors to be more positive and that I can catch myself when they’re not. yeah, that’s my, it’s really making it a priority. and I loved too how you mentioned.

about your your morning of, you five to nine is for you and to fill up your cup. I mean, mine’s six to 10, kinda, but same thing. And that’s something I stress to all my clients is about, you know, have a morning practice, whatever it is. Don’t pick up your phone first thing, unless it’s to start a meditation app. You know, don’t jump on email right away. Write, pray, meditate, whatever, go for a walk, be in nature, whatever it is that fills you up.

So, so important, so important. Well, I think the mindset cannot be overstated how important it is to all of us. And if you’re not in a good mindset, then your day doesn’t go well and your work absolutely, as you said, does not go well. It just doesn’t. And it bleeds out and sometimes it’s hard to get out of that. You know, it’s like a downward spiral sometimes and you need something to pull you up out of there. And it’s not.

really not to shame anybody if you fall off the rails and have a bad day. It’s like pick yourself up, dust yourself off, but just knowing that one that you can, that you have agency, that you can kind of snap yourself out of it and that you can do it over and over again and over time. Once you’ve felt sort of that more extended periods of calm and ease and just groundedness,

You won’t want to, it feels really icky to go back to that other place. Well, and I think for me, I learned meditation 10 years ago and that is something that I incorporate every day. Yep. And it’s so important and people may not think of it as an important part of their day, but it’s a really important part of just getting yourself centered. A thousand percent. I don’t get out of bed without meditating first. It’s just a thing.

Now, and I do it in bed because I know once I get out of bed, it’s like the dog, the cat, you know, yeah. Exactly. I love to end our interviews with the three things that you do or suggest to be more joyful. Okay. I would say, get that morning routine that we just talked about. Even start with five minutes.

And don’t worry about you’re doing meditation wrong. There’s no such thing as doing meditation wrong. It’s a practice. And if you picked up a violin and tried to play, you wouldn’t be good out of the gate. you know, you just keep doing it. I would say there’s that, the knowledge is power that I’ve mentioned a few times. I would check out that saboteur assessment or some other way.

to really get to know what’s going on inside of you that’s keeping you from the joy. And that includes also, you know, just getting to know, love and trust yourself. What are your wants and needs? And whether we’re a busy professional or a mom or, you know, a parent or whatever’s distracting us, we often forget about ourselves and filling up our joy cup.

And then I would say there’s a trick. I mentioned that negativity bias, that three to one negativity bias. If you intentionally want to improve a relationship or improve your mindset even for every negative thought you have, add three positive ones. Or for every, if you have a challenging relationship for every sort of negative interaction.

create three positive ones. And a positive one could be a smile and a thank you. These aren’t huge, you know, huge gestures you have to make. But really being intentional, try it for a day, you know, and you’ll really be surprised at how often you do have a negative thought or feeling and it’s, again, you’re just human. So those would be the three things that I would say.

Yes, I think that’s great. And don’t judge yourself because you’re human. absolutely. the judge is the master saboteur. that keeps you, gosh, that keeps you from being your best. so just whatever you need to do to, can joke around with that voice. I named my judge. My judge is Cruella. And so whenever we judge ourselves, we judge others and we judge situations. And whenever she rears her ugly head,

I can kind of play with her now and be like, there you are. What took you so long? You’re just, that’s a lie, whatever you’re saying. So important. That’s my cat’s nickname, Cruella. Her name is Carmella. cute. She decides to bite me, she’s Cruella. Her alter ego, that’s adorable. Exactly. I think she is.

Well, it was a pleasure having you on and thank you so much for all your great wisdom and be sure to download the free items that Janine mentioned. And again, I hope we have a chance to meet sometime in person. That would be lovely. This was so much fun. I could talk about this for days. me too. I love this topic. Yeah, me too. Just let it be easy, everybody. That’s my parting thought. I love that. Thank you. Thank you.

It seems like everyone nowadays has a podcast. So why not you? Although one might argue that there are far too many podcasts, they are extremely popular ways of consuming information. Like blogs and videos, different podcasts attract different audiences, offering something for everyone. That makes them a great medium for marketing and building brand awareness if you tap into the right niche.

In this episode, Gail talks with Nicole Lashae Ben, CEO and founder of Thrive in Design, a web-based firm that specializes in empowering exceptional design-focused brands to tell their stories through impactful product launches and podcasts. A seasoned expert in the interior design industry with over 17 years of experience working in firms and with manufacturers, Nicole found her true calling in helping interior design firms and product companies boost brand awareness and revenue by telling their unique stories.

Gail asked Nicole why interior designers might want to consider podcasting. She said, “You should be podcasting if you want to establish yourself as an expert and authority in whatever it is that you are doing.” Podcasts are an effective way of building brand awareness, broadening audience reach, and giving value to clients and prospective clients.

Before diving into podcasting, advised Nicole, think about who the audience is that you’re trying to attract and what your goal is in attracting them. “Your podcast is a marketing tool, a sales tool,” she said. “Think about what call to action you want people to take as result of listening to the podcast.”

Whether you choose a video or only an audio format, realize that producing a podcast takes a fair amount of time and resources. You have to develop topics or themes for your individual podcasts. You need to identify, invite and schedule time with guest participants. You have to record and edit the podcast. Once in its final form, you have to upload the podcast to the various platforms that distribute podcasts. Usually, this requires a team of support and technical folks to make it manageable. However, the results can be quite rewarding.

Nicole also talked about what kind of content to develop for your podcast, how to get the most from your investment by repurposing your content in various ways, and some of the tools she uses to prepare and distribute her podcast. For all that and more, listen to the entire podcast.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s12e4-shownotes

Mentioned in This Podcast

For more information about Nicole and Thrive in Design, go to the firm’s website at www.thriveindesign.co.

Gail and Nicole mentioned Zoom and several other software programs useful for podcasters:

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Welcome. Today we have Nicole Lachey-Benn. She is our guest on the Creative Genius podcast. Welcome, Nicole. Thank you So good to have you. Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited about this conversation today. it’ll be so great. Well, tell us a little bit about your background in the interior design industry. Yeah. So I always think this question is so funny because my background really goes back to childhood. Like I did my first interior design project when I was five years old.

My mom and I moved into a new house and I was like, I want this wall purple and this wall pink and a ballerina border. So that’s kind of where it all started. But fast forward, I ended up going to Syracuse University and getting my BFA in interior design and fell even more in love with the interior design process and design industry. Went on to get my master’s in design management from Savannah College of Art and Design. So I’ve always worked in end.

gone to school in the interior design industry literally forever. I’ve worked at design firms for product manufacturers in that evolution of just loving design, loving the strategy behind the business side of design has led me to start my own business, which is called Thrive InDesign, to really focus on design focused brands that wanna amplify their stories in the design industry.

Tell me a little bit about what you’re doing now because you’ve created this special niche for yourself and it’s helping those brands through their stories, through podcasts and product launches. And here we are on a podcast today. So tell us a little bit more about that. Absolutely. So for me, I always knew that I wanted to start my own business and I had this very vague idea. like, I want to help brands increase their brand awareness and their revenue. So I ended up starting,

with actually virtual summits before the pandemic when everybody had to do virtual and started these business summits where I was bringing together experts, I was doing workshops and just helping people understand the strategies behind business and how to increase their brand awareness and revenue. And then that evolved and I learned a lot about my customers in different conversations and services that I was providing. And no matter the type of business,

They all were saying different things, but it came down to like the same problem. They were like, hey, Nicole, you know, I want more people to know about my brand. I want to make more money. I want to be known in this design segment. Or sometimes it was international brands. Hey, I want to be known in the U.S. But even though it sounded like all completely different things, really everybody was saying the same thing that they needed to tell their brand story effectively, whether it be online or offline.

So that really became my thing. And I niche down into that about three years ago, and especially for brands in the interior design industry. Like how do I help you tell your brand story online and offline? And I think especially in the last year and a half, that has become even more niche for podcasting and product launches, mainly because those are like, that’s like my zone of genius. Like how to effectively tell your brand story on a podcast and attract that ideal audience.

convert them to a paying client. And then when it comes to product launches, whether you’re a designer launching your own product line or you’re a manufacturer, there’s a certain strategy in our industry that is different from any other product industry out there, right? The way that Apple launches their products is very different from our industry and how somebody launches like a textile or a chair. So I really understand.

the brand story that needs to be told in those product launches and what needs to be done online and offline for those things. So it’s been an evolution, but yeah, this is where I am now and the things that I love to do with my clients. That is so interesting. And we have a similar story in a way, because back in 2008, when we started our business in October was our first virtual summit. And we did it at that time without

Zoom, which today it’s like, my God, it was on audio. we literally had separate, we had interviews, some were recorded, some were live and we did 14 people in three days. It was wild, but you know, I look back to those days. had no idea that anybody was really doing that kind of thing again. So good for you. That’s awesome. That was so funny. Well,

Let’s talk a little bit about why an interior design firm should consider podcasting. think you kind of touched on it a little bit, but for a lot of people, they’re not sure that they want to go this direction. And they’re not sure if it’s worth the time and effort and money and all the things that they have to learn how to do in order to do podcasting to do that, because they’re thinking social media. That’s where most people are spending their time and effort and money.

today and maybe sometimes on SEO. So let’s talk about why podcasting. the basics podcasting is actually something that I was not thinking of before, which is so funny. I was like, why would I do a podcast? Like who’s going to listen to my podcast? It’s my audience really listening.

But then a few things clicked in a conversation that I had with another woman who I was in a business accelerator with. And I’ll share those things that I tell everybody now. I think everybody should be podcasting. But really, you should be podcasting if you want to establish yourself as an expert and authority in whatever it is that you’re doing. If you want to build brand awareness, because podcasts can be video and audio or one or the other.

So that’s a great tool to build brand awareness about who you are, what you do, and again, what your expertise is. If you want to engage a broader audience, right? A lot of the times with podcasts, you’re able to reach an audience that might not have known you before, especially when you’re doing like guest interviews, right? That guest is going to attract their audience. They’re gonna be resharing your content and promoting your episodes. So you’re getting in front of a whole new audience that had not known you before.

or might’ve known you, but now gets to know you in a different way through your podcast. It also allows you to strengthen your client relationships, right? So especially in any like B2B type of client business development, you always strengthen client relationships by adding value to that client in some way. So if you’re doing a podcast and you’re creating all of this valuable content, whether it’s in a solo episode or with a guest on the episode,

you’re giving so much value to your client in a free way that they’re listening in and they’re like, wow, I never thought about X, Y, Z in that way before. Then you’re able to have like a warmer conversation with that potential client to move things along in the process. So if you were hesitant, I would say those are probably the main reasons that I would suggest for somebody to start podcasting.

What are great reasons and podcasting is really not hard. We’ve been doing it for a few years. We started ours during cove it and I did my first one a long, long time ago with Lou and and negara. And then, you know, I’ve done a lot of gas, but it’s interesting. And I think also just remember that you can do guest interviews to get started and get your feet wet in it and find a podcast like.

I’ve had some of clients on our podcast, which is great for us and also great for the client. And I think it’s really good if you can find a place to start and even get a time to just practice a little bit. It’s not a complicated process. Yeah, for sure. The ease of it. And I would say like when I started my podcast, the first season, I was in the corner of my bedroom, probably in my pajamas.

with my laptop, a microphone, and some headphones. So it was just a matter of deciding that I was going to do it and starting. Well, it’s not so hard. So anybody that’s thinking about it, you can talk to either Nicole or to me. will encourage you to do it. And I probably do anywhere from four to 10 podcasts a month recorded. to me, it’s just part of my activity. That’s what I do.

So let’s go back to something else that you and I talked about when we had a chat a few months ago. And you talked about repurposing content. And I think that’s a brilliant thing to do. And I would like for you to explain what that means and how does a designer go about doing that? Yeah. So in terms of podcasting, right, the main form of long form content that you are creating is the podcast episode, whether that be just audio only or it’s audio and video.

So you have this amazing file that you’re uploading to your podcast and it’s going out to all of these networks. But that file, think of that as how can you reuse it or repurpose it in different ways? So for the sake of time, let’s just see three ways you can repurpose that content. So the first way you can take the transcript or just get it transcribed in general.

and then repurpose that transcript into a blog post that you’re putting on your website, right? And so now that’s great for SEO and driving traffic to your website. The second is taking that transcript and dicing and slicing it up, elaborating on it, and then creating an ebook out of it. So now that is either a free lead magnet or something that you sell. So now you’re increasing your revenue by adding another product to your business.

And then the third form, which is going to be going along with promoting the podcast episode, is taking that audio or video and then putting it into a tool like Clap, that’s K-L-A-P, which turns it into shorter reels that you can share on Instagram or on LinkedIn. And it’ll basically pull out the best sound bites of that episode so that it engages with people online and then…

you can write a caption to encourage people to listen to the full episode on whatever platform. So those are just a few ways, but the first thing you had to do was just record the episode and you can repurpose it in those ways. Sure. Well, we switched to Riverside, which has a lot of benefits too. Do you use that? I just started and it has changed my life. Yeah. It’s a great software and our,

The person that does our podcast editing is a contractor for us and he has been with us for a long, time. And he has educated me about the benefits of it. And I’d heard about it through one of my mastermind groups. And I really think it’s a great platform for anybody that’s really starting out because you get good quality video as well as audio. And you have

you end up with better quality audio than you would if you did it on Zoom, which we used to do. anything else you’d like to add to that or other softwares you’d recommend? Yeah, absolutely. I got started on Zoom. Most of my seasons were on Zoom and I just learned about Riverside probably earlier this year. And I’m like, where has this been all of my life?

But yeah, if you’re like down and scrappy and you just want to start Zoom, like GarageBand and whatever your RSS feed is going to be to publish your podcast, I use Podbean is all you need. But if you do want something a little bit more high quality, of course, Riverside is where you’re going to record, Clap, as I mentioned, to create that short form content. And then when it comes to editing, a couple of, well, one specific platform that I recommend is ISE.

IZOTOPE, so that’s I-Z-O-T-O-P-E. So it’s pretty much like magic for editing your audio. You can literally type in filler words like delete delete when I say yeah, like I say okay, I say okay way too much when I’m recording. So it’s like an AI powered editing. So even if you don’t know how to do all the editing and click and.

drag and drop and all that, you can just type in what you want edited or highlight it. Like you see the text and highlight it, delete it, and it’ll delete that part of the audio. Another one is dscript, which also is similar for editing. And then another one is Mowpod. I think that’s how you pronounce it, M-O-W-P-O-V. And that helps with advertising your podcast and getting it out to new audiences.

Great. those are great tips. Okay. So if somebody is considering doing a podcast to attract clients in their town, their city, their region, wherever, what kind of content should they be creating? What kinds of interviews should they be doing? Yeah. If it’s specific to a region, you should be focusing on like regional specific things, whether that is regional trends, right? So

What’s happening when it comes to design trends in your region or architecture trends? How is that inspiring your design process or even the desires of your clients? You can do interviews with local experts, for example, architects, contractors, real estate agents, especially if you’re in the home design industry. You can either even engage with other homeowners or people that are putting on local events.

that especially that are tied into like cultural influences, because that’ll always tie back to design. And then if you’re doing a little bit more video, I would always highlight doing behind the scenes of any local projects that you are working on, especially in collaboration with like those architects and contractors that you’re working with. So those are just a few ideas, especially if it’s a region specific topic for short.

I like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the idea of bringing in people that you already partner with, because you’re going to let them know that, post this on your social feeds as well. Exactly. And that gets you out in front and gets them some publicity and starts building that relationship even stronger. Absolutely. I think that’s great. So who should somebody invite besides these people? Should they invite their clients? Would that be somebody they should have as a guest?

Yes, before I answer like who though, I think it’s also important to figure out like who is your audience for this podcast. Because if you’re an interior designer, you wanna know like who are you trying to attract, right? You could be using your podcast to attract other clients so that you can do design projects for them. Or you can be positioning yourself as an expert in some type of like specific style of design, right?

and you want to teach other designers about that style. That’s a different audience. So I guess it just, it first depends on like, who are you trying to reach with your podcast and like, what is the goal? What is the theme of this podcast? And then from there, that should really determine who you’re inviting to the show, right? So if you’re trying to attract other clients, yes, of course, have your clients on your podcast because again,

Networking is a big part of the podcast. They’re going to share their episode with all their friends and coworkers and whoever is in their network. And that will attract similar types of clients that you want to reach. If you’re trying to position yourself as an expert in whatever it is that you’re an expert in and maybe sell those services to other designers or other people that might be that your expertise might be beneficial to, you want to be inviting

people that are aligned, right? So for my podcast, I might be inviting people who are marketing experts, right? Who know something about like business strategy, right? Versus, you know, other topics. So first get super clear on who you’re trying to attract, what you’re trying to position, and then that will guide you on who you’re interviewing on your podcast for sure. Okay. Yeah. Well, it-

It seems a little bit like a lot of stuff to absorb, in a way it’s just so natural because this is conversations, really having relationships with people, building relationships and asking curious questions because that’s really what it’s all about. So how much time does it take to develop content and how much of that content needs to be created before you start launching your podcasts? Well, I think each episode definitely takes a little bit of time.

I’ve cut down on some time because I use chat, chibit for everything. So I will do, I do take some time to research a guest or research whatever topic that I’m talking about in a solo episode. If it’s a guest or a topic that I’m doing solo, I usually like free write all of the notes that I know about that person or about that topic. You know, put in information that I’ve researched, all the things.

And then I truly lean on chat GPT for things. So I’ll say chat GPT, here are all my lists of notes I’m interviewing this person or I’m talking about topic XYZ. Help me formulate questions to ask this person or write out an outline of how I should do the cadence of this show. And then chat GPT comes up with an initial outline and then I’ll do some tweaks from there.

So what used to take me like four hours of prep for show now takes me probably about an hour of prep. And then I’ll do some tweaking and then send that to the guests or record. So it should take probably between an hour to four hours of prep, depending on who you are and how long your episode is for every single episode, for sure. And of course, there also takes some planning if you’re just getting started because you need to put your…

your podcast onto an RSS feed and submit it to Apple and Spotify and all the things that take some time too. But once that’s done, that’s done. The planning is what takes the most time in the episode and even post-production as well. Yeah, and that’s where you can outsource a lot of that work. That’s what we do. We certainly, have our team that schedules everything on.

behalf of me. yeah, I think mine’s about an hour, hour and a half at most for every episode. So that’s all good information. And you mentioned where the podcast should be hosted, RSS feed, and that you should upload it to Apple and there are several other platforms as well. But you can certainly research those, but definitely start with the bigger one. Absolutely. yeah. And then how

can this podcast attract ideal clients, especially in the residential design field, which is the majority of our clients do residential. Yeah. So of course, it really goes back to everything we talked about today in terms of figuring out who your audience is, what story you’re telling and what you’re positioning. But it’s also important to like plan ahead for what the next steps are that you want people to take with your brand. Right. So they’re listening to this. They’re gaining all this value. They’re like,

yes, this person is amazing. I’m interested in working with them, but always think about what are the next steps you want people to take away from your podcast or with your brand. So the first simple, the simplest thing is what is your episode outro or do you incorporate any commercials within your show to give a call to action, right? So that call to action is go to xyz.com to

download the PDF or show notes for this show or schedule a call consultation. Those are things that our people are going to take action or join this webinar that you might be hosting. might be webinar.xyz.com. Whatever it is, make sure that that is incorporated into the audio form of your podcast so that people can know what they need to do next and keep it consistent. Don’t change it up every single episode. Choose one call to action and

direct that into a funnel. And then the second thing is put that same call to action into your show notes, right? Your show notes should also be very SEO rich and explain what’s happening in the show. Give some timestamps and also your call to action again so that people can easily click on that link and go to whatever direction that you told them to do. But essentially, this is a brand awareness tool. This is a marketing tool for your brand. So that call to action needs to be clear.

It needs to work, it needs to be streamlined so that you can move people along in whatever your sales process is to get them to be a client or whatever you want them to do next with your brand. Okay, well, that’s great. And I think that’s a great idea. And you talked about a funnel and we use funnels in our business, but a lot of designers probably don’t know what that means. So why don’t you talk about that? A funnel is just a fancy word for steps that you want clients to take, right?

Essentially, the first action that you want somebody to take is for them to give you their information in some form or fashion, their phone number, their email address. Then from there, you’re nurturing them in some way, right? You might send them a follow-up email saying, thank you so much for downloading this or subscribing to our show. And then from there, you’re taking the next step of asking them for their times, especially if you’re an interior designer.

join me in a consultation so that I can walk you through my steps of design or learn more about your design project or where have you. But essentially a funnel, no matter the type of business, is just a series of steps that you’re doing to attract your ideal client, get them to be a lead, nurture that lead, and then ultimately convert that lead to a paid customer.

Right. And this is not something that you do occasionally. You really need to have a plan for this. Absolutely. And I would encourage you that if you’re going to jump into this, that you’re working ahead. You have at least, I think, four episodes as a minimum to have in the can, so to speak, so that you have enough content that you can then start to have a regular pattern that you use to record. Because otherwise, you’re going to have

long breaks and you don’t want to have long breaks. You want to have very short breaks if you have breaks between seasons. Yeah, absolutely. The planning is so important for me. I know I do my podcast in seasons because once I launch a season, I get a whole influx of new clients and then I have to take a break before the next season. But yeah, you have to think about what is your cadence? Is it bi-weekly? Is it weekly? Is it seasons and what works well for your

marketing strategy and your sales funnel as well.

We actually, and you’ll see this, you’re on LinkedIn, that’s how we connect it. And on LinkedIn, we will have a clip of this episode that we will be playing. And that will give people the opportunity to come and connect and hear the whole podcast. And yes, we use clips of that, do social media clips. So there are just so many things you can do with the content that you talked about earlier, which is that repurposing. yeah, it’s great.

Here’s another question for you about where does this fit in the level of priorities for designers if they’re already busy doing maybe they’re active in local charity and they’re definitely doing a lot of social media today. Where does this fit in that priority list? I saw that question and I don’t know how to answer that really. just depends on the designer. Honestly, it really depends on the designer and who you have on your team.

Right, because podcasting, can be a time consuming thing. So I think, I guess to answer the question, you need to really look at what is the capacity that I have to add another marketing channel to my business. Can I do this solo or do I need other contractors to help me or do I have people on my team that has the expertise? And if not, do I have the budget?

to kind of outsource what needs to be done. So I would first start by assessing the room. Like, do I have the capacity for this and who is there to help me? And then the second thing I would do is figure out, is this important to help me position myself and my brand as an authority and as an expert in the industry, right? Would this help me stand out from my competitors? Like, I will also be looking at my competitors. Are they doing something?

that is similar to this or not doing it at all, because if it’s gonna help me stand out from my competition, I would be like, let me do this like right now. So those would be the first two things that I would do to assess, should this even be a priority for me right now, or is this a 2025 type of thing or 2026? And then kind of make a decision based on those assessments. Well, I think those are all,

really good points. it is and I guess I forget about how much back end help I have. if you if you don’t have that, I really think it’s a good idea to have somebody who can edit for you. We have a writer that does the pull quotes for us and edits the show notes. And we have somebody else that does the social media clips and somebody else that does the editing. So we have a team of people we have somebody who does a scheduling.

And you need all of those things in order to do this efficiently because you as the leader of your company really need to be spending just the time necessary to be on that podcast and do the research necessary. And you can also have somebody else help you with research as well. Your friend, Chet, GPT. Exactly. That’s awesome.

Okay, well this is a lot of great fun information that will be very helpful to anybody thinking about a podcast or even somebody who didn’t think about it, but maybe they will now. Yeah. And also I think it’s great to talk about the funnels because it’s really about talking about your full marketing strategy, just one thing as an element that you’re using in your marketing, but how does this all fit together and how is this going to help you propel your business forward?

Yeah, really great insights today. So good. I’m glad. Yeah. Let’s let’s shoot through a couple of personal questions. Absolutely. I love the answer that you gave us about if you were stranded on a desert island, who or what would you have with you? I love that answer. I can’t even remember what I said. What did I say? said, a machete for one thing.

I cracked up. yeah, I definitely you need a machete if you’re on an island because then you can like chop down things, build a home, you know, get your food. I don’t know, open a coconut. There you go. That’ll give you something to drink and eat. Exactly. Okay. You also said something about a straw. So guess a straw works on that’s so funny. All right.

And also, what about in 10 years, what would you like to have accomplished? man, so many things. I would like to be the go-to strategist for brand storytelling in the interior design industry for designers and interior product brands. That is something I would like to accomplish. At some point, I would also like to have my own collection of interior products.

Yeah, and just like travel the world more and show my son even more of the world. We love to travel together. That’s so great. Yes. Well, don’t go to Iceland this time of year. It’s cold. OK, yeah. I’ll wait for another time. Last week, I wanted to see the Northern Lights. My girlfriend saw it this week. She’s there an extra week. my goodness. Don’t go this time of year. cold. OK.

So what are three things your listeners, our listeners can take or implement from what we talked about today? Yeah. So I know we shared a lot today, but really boil it down. It’s the three main things. One, just figure out the vision for what you want for your podcast and what story you are telling about your brand. Who are you trying to reach? What story is it that you’re trying to tell? The second is just develop some key themes for what topics will be discussed, because that will allow you to

plan for your episodes, whether it be a solo episode or a guest episode, because you want your content to be streamlined and make sense so that listeners keep coming back to hear what you have to say. And then when it comes to planning, always think about what is the next steps that you want people to take with your brand, right? This podcast is a marketing tool. This is a sales tool. So think about what is the call to action that you want people to take and how is that going to lead to you?

honestly, it’s like increasing your revenue for your business. So I would say those are the main things that I would love for you to take away and implement right after listening to this episode. Well, thank you so much. It’s been so fun. I’m glad we connected on LinkedIn. That’s a great place to be. A lot of designers aren’t there. Yeah. And they should be because that’s where a lot of the people are that they want to connect with, like realtors and

anybody that can refer business to them plus their clients as well. So definitely check LinkedIn out, right? Yes, for sure. Get on there today. All right. Well, thank you so much, Nicole. It’s been a pleasure and I really enjoyed having you. Thank you so much for having me. It’s been great.

All designers aim to create environments for their clients that will improve their lives and support their health and wellness. In the execution of those designs, that often focus on functionality and aesthetics, other areas of wellbeing may get overlooked. Taking a broader, more holistic approach to client needs and the connection of the space to the natural environment can produce additional benefits.

In this episode, Gail welcomes back to the podcast Matthew Tenzin, principal designer with Joe McGuire Design, with offices in Aspen, Boulder and Denver, Colorado. Previously Matthew appeared in an episode with the firm’s founder and partner, Joe McGuire. A former Buddhist monk, Matthew has had a lifelong love for creativity and interconnectivity with spirituality and the natural world.

In 2017, Joe and Matthew launched a Holistic Design Consultancy, now known as Home Within, where they focus on offering the healthy, sustainable and energy-balancing aspects of their design process. Matthew explained that their method is to examine the project in the context of five levels of holistic wellbeing in the home, taking a top-down approach. Those are the spiritual and/or sacred level, a wellness vision, symbolic or meaningful level, sensory level and functional level.

Matthew said that normally the energetic level in the home is not addressed in traditional building and design. He explained that spaces contain residual energies from previous inhabitants that can affect the current residents, either for good or for ill. From an energy perspective, the space may be out of balance and require cleansing before any other work is undertaken.

Connectivity is also central to their process. Matthew urged designers to make more of an effort to connect with their clients. “If only the designer could just breathe and slow down for a minute to connect with client, it’s amazing what can come out of that,” he said. Connecting to the natural environment is also essential. “If we can’t connect to the planet and the whole from our home, where are we going to do that?” he noted.

Matthew also talked about how the firm is using a new wellness space they opened up next to their studio and their work with indigenous communities in the rain forests of South America.

Listen to the entire podcast for more details and insights from Matthew.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s12e3-shownotes

Mentioned in This Podcast

For more information about Matthew and Joe McGuire Design, go to the firm’s website at www.joemcguiredesign.com.

For more information about their wellness consultancy, Home Within, go to the firm’s website at www.homewithin.com.

Listen to the previous podcast with Matthew and Joe discussing ways designers can break out of the cycle of constant business ups and downs.

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Welcome to the Creative Genius podcast, Matthew. You’ve been with us before, but our listeners might not have heard that episode. So we’re gonna dive right in. So how did you become a designer? Tell us about that. Well, hi, Gail. Thanks for having me back. Of course. It’s wonderful. I always love chatting with you and I’m excited to get to talk a little more with your listeners. So yeah, I became an interior designer in a little bit of an unusual way.

didn’t go to design school, my background was more, I was more interested in fine art. And even though as a kid, I told people I wanted to be an interior designer, I grew up in a very conservative Christian family and community. And I think at the time when I said I wanted to be an interior designer, it was a teacher and I can’t remember which one said, well, that’s what women do. So you should be an architect. And so that sort of planted a seed of.

Okay, well, I’ll explore architecture. And that wasn’t quite my thing. And then I got into painting and that led through a whole creative and spiritual path, I guess, of exploration. When I was living in Chicago, I got to hear the Dalai Lama talk and I went to hear him and got very into meditation, ended up becoming a Buddhist monk for a number of years, for about five and a half years living in retreat.

But I always had a very creative aspect of my being and I wanted to, after my time as a monk, which was an incredible life-changing time, I wanted to figure out how to integrate what I’d learned and express it creatively. I also felt a real deep connection to nature and to the planet and that’s something that’s always been a part of my life and I wanted to find a way to do something meaningful or beneficial to help others feel more connected.

to nature and to the planet because it felt like we wouldn’t do the things we do to the planet if we felt more connected to it. And right after my time as a monk, I met my husband, Joe, in Aspen at a talk by the Dalai Lama. We just happened to be sitting next to each other. And he was an established interior designer in Aspen. He’d been designing homes there for many years at that point. But he also had a background of interest in meditation and

healing arts, he had gone to massage school, he had lived at the Dalai Lama’s monastery and taught English before I was there. And so we had all these overlapping interests and we were really soulmates, know, it was meant to be. And so we started, you know, dating and, you know, became partners in life. And then over a few years, we started working together in design as well after tagging along with him on projects and things. Eventually he got

a number of projects and needed help. And he’s like, well, what do you think about helping me? And I thought, okay, great, let’s give it a shot. And that was 12 years ago. So I really learned through working with Joe, as well as just, you know, so much of it is just intuitive and a part of me, or there was sort of a natural impulse to design spaces, even from a young age. it’s an unusual path.

but I feel so grateful for it. It is so fascinating. And every time I hear you talk about being a Buddhist monk, I just try to imagine what would that be like? Because that is such a different lifestyle than what you have now. And of course, it informs what you’re doing. But and we’ll talk about that a little bit more. But what was that like? What was the difference in how you felt about yourself versus?

now that you’re away from that. What is that like? Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s something that’s it’s really hard to to put into words, of course, because it’s just such a such a powerful experience. It’s just so different from from the way that that pretty much all of us live. I felt really lucky. Like most days I felt like I won the lottery to have the opportunity to fully immerse in nature. For two and a half years, I was

in solitary retreat. So I would go for six or seven months at a time without seeing another human being, including other monks. There were a few of us in little cabins in this remote valley in Big Sur. So we were kind of over a ridge in a valley tucked in near the ocean, but we couldn’t see the ocean. just to have the opportunity to immerse in meditation all day, that connection to nature and to

the web of life, you become very sensitive to things when meditating that much. Wasn’t exposed to any news about the outside world. I would get letters when I would come out for those breaks and I would see my teachers and then go back in. And so to have that opportunity to not be distracted by devices and email and news and all that we have to process on a daily basis.

That was an amazing opportunity. when doing that, become, think, I mean, when anybody meditates, I know you meditate, we’ve talked about that before. We just naturally become more sensitive because we start to slow down and tune into the present moment, which is what meditation is, mindfulness especially, is being aware of what’s arising in the present. And then we start to notice things that we didn’t notice before. And they’ve always been there, but we just didn’t tune into it.

thoughts, our emotions, the breeze, the sensation on our skin, the way we’re breathing, the way we’re sitting, we start to open and sense in a deeper, richer way. And that’s just an incredible opportunity to do, especially in nature, because it opened up this feeling of connection to the web of life. I felt like I was communicating with nature. I would notice that I would have certain prayers or thoughts or intentions.

that would seem to be reflected in nature around me, in the animals, in the plants. And at times on the non-physical level, when you meditate deeply, you start to have connections on a more subtle level and where I was really sensitive to the energy of spaces and places, as well as to non-physical beings that have become kind of a part of my reality. I know a part of most world religions or spiritual traditions acknowledge

the possibility of life beyond the physical body. so that was such an interesting thing to learn about and to experience and to feel was real. so even though I was in solitude, I didn’t feel alone. I felt so much more connected than I had ever felt before. How interesting, because that’s something that you would think, I guess you would, some people might.

assume that you would be lonely because you weren’t interacting with people. But this is a whole different level as you’re describing. So interesting. were moments of loneliness for sure, you that would arise when I think about my family, friends, and just with that craving to be around people and to talk to people. you get used to emotions like that, thoughts like that arising and passing and, and, coming back to

the moment into the beauty and the present and to the sense of connection that I had there with me. Do you think that led to your current passion, which we’ll talk about, and you might talk about that a little bit and just tell us what it is? Yeah, yeah, it absolutely led to that. There was such a just a love for the planet and for nature that arose. was

quite powerful and also a grieving to think of and see what’s happening to the climate and to the biodiversity, to the animals, the plants as humans expand more and more and kind of consume more of the resources on the planet and more of the habitat. I just was feeling a sense of loss of our ability to live in harmony.

with nature and maybe a loss of our sense of connection to it, which I think is actually, we’re wired to connect to the whole, we’re naturally a part of it, and yet we’re not taught that. We live in a worldview that’s so focused on the physical and the material, and doesn’t always acknowledge our energetic, emotional, mental, spiritual selves. And so what became clear as Joe and I started working together was that,

Just as there are those same levels to us, to our being, in the yogic traditions, they talk about the five doshas, the five levels of our being, there are those levels to a home. And we started to notice that it was really important to address all of those levels if we wanted to create spaces of holistic well-being that didn’t just address the material, the physical. We all know what it’s like as designers to dive into a project and everything’s so focused on.

you know, the timeline, the budget, the materials, the construction and the logistics, all of that. And that’s all really important. And there’s so much more to a home than that in order for it to truly feel like home and for it to be a place of health and wellness and balance and peace, a place that restores us and lifts us up and reflects who we really are. So as we really dove into that, we started to notice that

like one of the levels, the energetic levels really not addressed by the design community or the building community. And it’s really important if spaces, even if they’re designed beautifully, if they have something energetically out of balance from former occupants or sometimes there are traumas in a space, sometimes.

Sometimes there’s a history to a space before humans even got there to a place, to a piece of land that’s really important to acknowledge rather than just going in and bulldozing and building a house. those are just examples. are dozens and dozens of things that can be out of balance in a space. Like for example, somebody living there with depression for many years in a particular room or part of a home or the whole home.

it can feel sad the minute you walk in the door, it can feel heavy, but we’re not taught to notice that and to acknowledge that that’s not us. But when a bunch of people are taught to observe how they feel when walking into a space and then stepping back out, you can feel that contrast. It’s like, out here I feel lighter, I feel happier. I walk in here, I feel heavy, I feel sad. That’s interesting. And if everyone…

notices the same thing, which we do with our clients without even saying what we’re observing until afterwards. Everyone can do this. Everybody has this ability to feel the energy and spaces. then it gives people the recognition that, there’s something here that’s not me. If the space feels sad, it’s not something wrong with me. There’s something going on in this space. And what can we do about that? And there are ancient, you know, it’s an ancient science and art of

clearing and balancing the energy of spaces. been done by traditions all over the world. we just don’t have a living practice of that, of our own in this culture, but we can go back to the ancient practices and they really work. It’s amazing. It’s like night and day shift when the energy is cleared and balanced in a space, it doesn’t have to feel sad. And then we can fill it with whatever positive emotions, whatever intentions we have for the space.

So that’s just an example of one level of a home that we find is often ignored. And it’s quite unfortunate because it can, to live in a space that’s energetically imbalanced can lead to physical and emotional and mental imbalances in the people in that space. when they can start to believe it’s them and take it on personally. So yeah. You know, I know this seems like woo woo for a lot of people that are listening, which is totally fine.

But and I think I’m a pretty grounded person, but I’ve had three experiences that I can relate to. one is and I can’t remember if you were part of the our collective at that time, but we were in Rhode Island and I could feel the energy of ancestors there, which I thought was really quite interesting. And I do have ancestors in Rhode Island, which I found through some searches in ancestry.com. And I thought, well, that’s really interesting.

Yeah, and then another time I was at a spiritual retreat and there was a guy in the room sitting behind me that got really angry and the teacher finally confronted him because he was not following the rules for this retreat. And there was no alcohol, no drugs, no nothing, and he had told someone that he had been smoking weed.

in the evenings, which was not okay if you’re there for a meditation retreat. So he got really angry and she made him leave. And she literally said, do not sit in that chair. And I could feel the anger even after he left. And I thought, wow, that is the craziest thing. I’d never really, really thought about that. I that was another example of you’re right. If you’re aware,

you can be very intuitive to the space and you don’t necessarily realize that and even, you know, I shouldn’t probably say this, but I’ll just say a friend went through a very ugly divorce and she was thinking about buying the house from her ex and I said, no, you can’t. The energy is terrible in that house. You cannot do it. And I just think you should let it go. Let him have it.

Yeah, and I mean, sometimes it’s really, yeah, I mean, it’s a, there are big decisions around homes and spaces and, it could be a huge impact to be in a space that, that isn’t energetically or symbolically uplifting for us, know, the symbolic or kind of, we talk about the emotional level and that’s where symbology meaning comes in. That’s, you know, we kind of break it down into these five levels and

And that’s one of the levels that a lot of designers do acknowledge. It’s like we design a home and we think about what’s meaningful to the client. And we really try to bring that into the design. And if a space has a negative reference or memory to a client, if they’re not able to shift that, it might always trigger that emotion, just being there, no matter how beautiful the space is.

And so we found that, you know, energetically, you know, no matter how much you remodel or redesign, if the inner energetics of the space and the land, not all need it. I’m not saying that every space needs this, but, know, there are quite a few that do. And if it’s not acknowledged, then it can, it could maybe just not feel right. You know, it might not feel as welcoming, as inviting, as peaceful as it could.

And so we really start at what we talk about the top level being the spiritual or the sacred. And that’s something that means something different to everyone. We don’t have any preset idea of what that means, but I think everyone has a sense of the sacred in their life. What that is, it might be family, it might be their ancestors, their loved ones, certain traditions, certain gatherings, certain ways of being. But for a lot of people there is.

a spiritual level to their life that is really important to acknowledge at the outset of a project because a home can hold that energy, can hold that intention and can, if it’s designed around what’s sacred for a person or a family, we can bring that into all the other layers. And at the very least, know, what I, what I recommend for designers, you know, who may not feel comfortable talking about these things is to at least slow down enough, just even if it’s like a half an hour.

with the clients. We ideally have at least an hour or a couple hours if it works out depending on the client’s availability and openness to walk the land, their property, to actually be outside the home rather than just starting right off the bat inside if it’s a remodel or if it’s a new build. Like walking the land, walking the perimeter, noticing all the details, the trees, the rocks, the plants, connecting with the place, noticing how it feels.

A lot of architects do this, but acknowledging kind of the more subtle feeling level and opening to the ideas that come in. And then just taking a little bit of time to explore the client’s intention for the project. Because intention is the foundation of everything in life, right? And a lot of times we don’t really, we’re not fully conscious of our intentions when going into something and a home remodel or build is an enormous

We all know what an undertaking it is, what it can bring up for everyone, what a process. It’s a huge investment. To get clear about what the intention is before going into that, sometimes a married couple might not have even talked about that openly and been facilitated in just inquiring into that and sharing what they see for the future of themselves, their kids, their family, future generations.

A lot of times we think so short term and the build and design of a home, we’re creating something to last for years or for generations. And so helping people think bigger, as well as to think about like, is their happy place? We talk about their wellness vision and we actually do kind of a guided meditation or journey where they are able to shift out of their mental, rational, you know,

Timeline, budget, resale value, that brain, which is really important. But to drop out of that into the heart and to go, what do I care about? What do I love? And what makes me so happy in life? What’s my personal vision of wellness? Because the more that we’re given permission to explore that at the beginning of a design project, the more we have the opportunity to bring that into all the other levels of the home.

that can inform the energetics so that we can fill the space with that positive energy of all those emotions that they mentioned, their values, their key words, the things that they wanna live around. We can fill the space with that energy. And then we can move from there into what we call the symbolic or meaningful level or emotional level, thinking about what imagery is really important, what symbolism, what art.

what objects are really meaningful that bring about this vision and hold it, rather than just going, you know, I need to keep this beautiful cabinet because my grandma gave it to me and it’s meaningful, but does it really make you feel good? You know, does it really uplift you? So tuning into that. And then from there, we get into the sensory, which is the aesthetic and how we design, you know, color palettes and the materials around this vision that we’re creating. And then from there into the functional, because, you know,

designing floor plans and spaces around what’s the highest best use or purpose of this space, not just what everybody else does or what’s happened to be on the architects drawings or the way the space is currently configured. And so, so it’s sort of going from the top down rather than from the bottom up. And we find that just even just even taking a few minutes at the beginning, if, if, if, if designers could just breathe.

at the beginning and slow down for a minute to connect with the clients. It’s amazing what can come out of that and that can ripple through a project. So talk to me a little bit about what some of the clients have said that you’ve had this opportunity to address their energy in their homes. What has happened as a result of this? Yeah, I mean, we had a recent experience with a client, a large home in Aspen, very

It’s probably one of the biggest budget projects we’ve had. they, I mean, the email after this work, know, the husband wasn’t quite as involved in it. It wasn’t his thing. And sometimes that’s the case, sometimes not. But he supported it for his wife because he could tell it was meaningful to her that there were parts of the home that didn’t feel right.

her that she was aware of and we were aware of, but you know, it wasn’t something that he was as tuned into or, know, but he wanted this for her. and so we went through the process of working with the energy of those spaces. And a lot of times it might only be part of a home. It’s not like the whole home, there might be certain something blocked or something stuck or out of balance in one part of the home. And so, so we did that process and, and, and we always kind of work from the outside in from

the land, the yard, the environment outward in and connecting with the intention and what’s sacred for that person. it was really beautiful to see how impacted she was by this process and by the experience. mean, she wrote back just saying, feel like I’m living in heaven on earth. I feel like I’m living in my dream home that you acknowledge not just

what’s beautiful and didn’t just design around what’s beautiful, but what’s really meaningful and sacred for us and purposeful. And she really felt that and got that. And it was just really special to get to share that with her as well as to notice how she felt a lot more connected to that home, which was a new home for them. She felt more connected to the land and to the animals.

and to the plants and to the trees. so that’s really part of our vision for this. It kind of goes back to my time as a monk and the times in retreat. I still go on retreat quite regularly and study with various teachers and as well as indigenous healers and teachers who carry that wisdom of living in this acknowledgement that there’s the sacred, there’s spirit or life.

within everything and everyone. So it’s really about, you know, within people’s home, giving them an opportunity to open to that view, that experience of that sacred worldview and feeling connected to nature and to the planet in our home, which it feels really important and timely because we spend so much of our time indoors. First of all, they say we spend over 90 % of our time indoors now.

And the vast majority of that is at home. And if we’re going to connect to the planet and to the whole, and we can’t do that at home, where and how are we gonna do that? I think a lot of people go to, I mean, a lot of our clients who we work with because we really, with Home Within, which is a branch of Joe Maguire Design and where we really dive into this process, we focus on wellness design. We talk a lot about wellness and that wellness vision, which ripples into a lot of times healthier,

choices for the family on a lot of levels. And then a lot of times those healthier choices are healthier for the planet, even though that may or may not have been their initial intention. Tuning into not bringing toxins into their space is actually, you know, that’s a good thing for the community and the planet as a whole. so anyway, we work with our clients in this way through Home Within and it’s see to us, it’s

we see it as this opportunity for people to connect in a deeper way in their home rather than having to go on a big retreat or to just have this experience like people go to high-end wellness resorts and have these amazing experiences of community and connection to nature and living holistically and having their green juice in the morning and going to yoga and then, know, and a lot of people come back from that and go,

Why can’t I live that way all the time? And I think people can. Well, yes. I think, well, essentially, as we have a more complex world, complex issues that we’re dealing with both in life and in business and all the other aspects of our lives, we have to have someplace where we can feel centered and alive and safe.

All of those things are important emotions. So I would imagine that all of those things are things that you’re sharing when you’re talking about home within with your clients. Yeah, yeah, it’s so true. Safety is a key one for people that comes up again and again, when people tune into what they’re looking for and wanting in a home. and that’s

I mean, it just makes sense at this time in the world with so much change and imbalance. People are looking for a refuge for a safe place, a place of comfort and well-being. And yeah, I think with that intention, it just makes sense to think a little bit more beyond just the functional and the aesthetic aspects of spaces. Even though those are so important, I think there are other layers that we can bring in to make a space really

feel nurturing and like home. Well, and I think for you as a business person, I know that’s not your first maybe identity for yourself. But when you think about what you’re doing, it allows you to differentiate your services from probably 99 % of the design firms out there. And, and that is an advantage. But the other thing that’s really interesting about that

is that it’s so rooted in who you are. It’s very authentic to you, your brand, what you’re trying to accomplish. And I can imagine that this is going to be, it seems to be your life work now of what it is you’re trying to accomplish. And you have opened up a space next to your current studio. So talk about that a little bit. Yeah, so earlier this year, a space opened up. We have…

kind of the top floor of a building in North Boulder near our home here. And we had sort of two thirds of it and the other third was being used by a nonprofit that does work on sustainability. We loved having them there and they moved into another kind of co-working space and this space opened up and it’s just a beautiful open space that previously, you know, some years ago had been a meditation center. It’s perfect for

meditation, yoga has views of the hills. And so we were so excited to get to take that space on and our intention for the space and what we’ve been using it for is as our wellness space. So it’s a space not just for our team and for them to have a space to go that’s, it does not feel officey at all. There’s a lounge kind of sitting area with comfortable, sustainable furniture, like healthy, sustainable furniture that

So it’s an opportunity to show some of those things and for our team to get to hang out comfortably if they just need a break in between things to do some stretches on a yoga mat or, but also it’s a space where we can have events with our team that don’t feel businessy, know, where we’re not at a conference table and in front of a screen. And like we’re having a sound bath there next week.

on a weekday morning for our team. That was one of the things we surveyed our team, what things they’d like to use the wellness space more in sound baths were like the highest rated because it’s just so relaxing. I don’t know if you’ve ever done one. Have you done one? have, yeah. It is. It’s really interesting and you don’t think about it because we are energy. So that vibrations that you feel from that. And I know that certainly with mantras and

A lot of the meditation techniques you’re you’re using sound in order to connect. And I think that’s pretty fascinating going. Yeah, it is. I think that’s going to be great. So so we’re we’re using it for that, but it’s also a place for us to hold events for the community. so I teach meditation there. Occasionally I’ve taught workshops on space clearing, kind of introductory level space clearing that can be really helpful to learn. It’s just sort of like a half day workshop.

And then we’re going to be teaching a lot more sharing things around the home within process for people who might want to be guided through that process and how to apply that to their own space or home, regardless of whether they own the home or not, whether it’s a large expensive home or whether it’s a little apartment in the city. We can all learn how to bring these levels of wellness into our space and how to nurture.

those in the space so that the space nurtures all of those within us. so we’re doing a number of different community events. It’s also a space where we focus on the rainforest preservation work that we’ve become really active in, which is kind of a side project. But I was just thinking this morning, Gail, how when we first started working with you, Joe and I at our firm was

quite a bit smaller. were, you we’ve been going through the roller coaster of just the ups and downs and business and it was quite stressful. And, and you really helped us with so much of that, all of that. we’re in a totally different place than where we were. And we’ve learned so much. But one of the things that was so interesting when we first started working together was how you talked about some of your clients who you’d worked with for years and how they were at this place now where they were, they were thinking about philanthropy.

What are they gonna do for their community? How are they gonna give back? What are they gonna do for the world? And you mentioned a number of examples of your clients and really cool things, organizations in their community or around the world that they’ve gotten involved in to give back. And I remember at the time just feeling like, my gosh, that feels like so far from where we are. We’re just in survival mode. We’re just trying to keep the doors open and keep up with all the projects and all the clients and all this stuff.

And we’re in such a different place now. And to be able to, for a while through Home Within, we’re giving back through that work, but wanting to share it more with the community so that it’s not just for people who can afford to hire an interior designer, which is, you know, it’s a smaller group of people. We want to make it more widely available for anybody to learn how to do. But then the philanthropic part of this is that we’ve become

aware of just, you as we tune into healthier and sustainable processes in our business, which is an ongoing and, you know, really challenging endeavor and yet really rewarding. We’ve made progress and we’ve got a lot more to do. But just to realize that we want to give back to the planet. And one of the things that we’ve really found is really important for us is preserving

the indigenous wisdom on the planet. We’ve benefited so much from that in our own lives. Joe and I both have really experienced the gifts of learning from indigenous peoples about how they see nature and feel connected to nature, don’t feel separate from it. And so we’re working with some communities in the rainforest to, some of this is just evolving even very recently and where I’m going to be going down there, it looks like in November.

to meet with a specific community. But we’ve already preserved over 250 acres of rainforest land, and our goal is much bigger than that. But to work with a specific community that is living in harmony with their land and wants help in preserving it, because there are all these challenges to that when they’re so poor and don’t have the ability to resist.

the mining companies and the logging companies and the government that wants to come in and do stuff to their sacred ancestral land. so, yeah, so that’s something that we are getting to do now that I couldn’t imagine years ago. And it really, through building a business that’s stable, that has systems and processes that

where you’ve helped us so much in learning how to lead and be better communicators. And of course, we’re always learning with that. And I feel like we’ve really gotten to a different place where Joe and I are able to be more ourselves in what we’re doing and bring this greater purpose into it. It’s so interesting that you bring this up about the other clients because

You started working with me in 2018, I believe it was June, much different situation than I remember a few tears in the session from both you and Joe and all those things. And a lot of my clients start with tears and because we get down to the heart of what’s important to them. And we want to build the business holistically too, because this is not about just business. It’s really about who you are and how you show up in the world and how you show up as a leader.

And we actually say in our boardroom group that it’s beyond business because when you get to the beyond business, you’re starting to self actualize into your business so that you can give back and that you can get that extra benefit of being that generous person, that generous heart that you bring to the world can be.

shown through your business and the way that you approach things, the way you approach your clients and your team. And as you start understanding the connection between the spiritual level and all of these pieces of your life that really impact other people, you realize, and I think it’s one of the gifts of what I get to do is the ripple effect of what our programs allow people to do is to go and help other people. So

like you doing what you’re doing or like Cheryl Stauffer, who’s doing Asia’s Hope. So building schools for kids in Asia or gosh, we have so many of our clients that are doing so many incredible things for global purposes and also for their local communities. And to me, that is the ultimate expression of a successful business.

is when you’re able to bring that level of, as you say, consciousness into what you are producing, because the result of what you do is not just financial. You have to have financial success in order to be able to do this. So without that financial success, you cannot give back because you don’t have enough. So you have to get beyond that feeling of not enough.

to abundance. And when you get to abundance, then there is so much more to give and you get so much more in return. So I mean, this is a deep conversation in many ways, because when you think about it, a lot of people just think that business is business and it’s not. It’s way, way deeper than that. Yeah, I think owning a business is one of the most potent paths of personal transformation.

Yeah, I mean, it can be right. If not, you know, it might be more difficult, you know, I mean, for us when we, you know, the obstacles that we’ve encountered in our business, as business owners and leaders, it always traces back to us, you know, it always traces back to stuff within ourselves that we’re needing to see and heal and acknowledge and

grow around and shift out of, know, so many of our own limiting beliefs have been revealed in the process of our business. I think it’s really important to understand that we are not alone. We may feel alone sometimes, but we’re not alone. And we have such an impact on other people, whether we realize it or not.

And you bring up something that I think is so crucial for people to understand that who you are, who you are when you show up for work, who you are when you show up at home, who you are when you show up as a friend, it all starts from within. whatever we put out into the world is either positive or negative energy. And that positive or negative energy is going to bring more of that back. if you’re feeling that you don’t have enough, that you are

poor in whatever way you feel poor, then that is sensed by other people. They know that. They feel that. And for those of you who are struggling with your business and really needing to have more business, there is an element that you need to look at for yourself of how are you showing up? Because how you show up is powerful. It’s so powerful that people do not realize.

that the impact is way beyond just what the thoughts in their brain is way beyond that. Yeah, absolutely. mean, a lot of the research around it scientifically even demonstrates, know, one of the types of meditation that I love to teach comes from the HeartMath Institute, and they’ve been around for decades doing research on the energy field of the heart and the power of…

coherence, getting our brain and heart in coherence. And so it’s just about breathing in and out through your heart center and a little more slowly, a little more deeply than you normally do. And you start to drop into the, what they call a parasympathetic nervous system where you’re, it’s the relaxation response. It’s so good for your health and wellbeing on so many levels for mental clarity, for physical energy and stamina. I mean, it’s really how we recharge the body is

recharges by going into the relaxation response. We can’t do that if we’re always wired and stressed and go, go, go in the kind fight or flight mode. But one of the things that they talk about and that the research is so clear about is that the electromagnetic field of our heart is the largest magnetic field in our body, much larger than the electromagnetic field of our brain.

sends out this electromagnetic field that can be felt up to 10 feet away. And they think even further, but the studies show at least 10 feet away. And it’s the way that your heart is beating, sends the signal out about how you’re feeling. It broadcasts your emotions to everyone around you. I know we’ve all experienced that where we can just tell how somebody’s feeling. They might have a smile on their face, but you can tell.

Well, like they’ve done studies, this institute and others, where people, they have somebody sitting with their back to the door, and then they have them wired to detect the response of their nervous system. And then they have someone walk in the room and they have that person generate a lot of anger first. Kind of like what you felt in that retreat you were at. And that person doesn’t even, they can’t even see the person. They have no idea that person is gonna be angry.

They might hear them come in the room behind them, but their whole body responds to that person’s anger immediately when that person walks in the room. And they respond differently if that person has generated more positive emotions. Their body feels it. Their heart actually is what feels it. And so our hearts are connected and just electromagnetically, like we sense and can feel what’s going on in other people’s hearts if they’re contracted.

and worried or if they’re open and expansive and sending out positive emotion. So on that level, it absolutely affects everyone around us. It affects our family, our team, our coworkers who we spend so much time with. I think it’s not too much of a stretch to imagine that in a world where everything is made of energy, it looks so solid and physical, but we know these are all atoms with electrons and protons and it’s spinning, moving energy.

that if the electromagnetic field of the heart broadcasts emotion, that that could impact, you know, the field of energy in a space over time. I certainly have found that to be true. And the good thing is that we can shift that, you know, we can we can actually create spaces. Spaces are sort of like little batteries, you know, that we can fill with positive energy, just like our bodies, our energy fields that we can fill with positive energy.

And then we have more to run on, like we can recharge through positive emotion, through gratitude and love and positive emotions. That’s how we recharge. spaces are the same way by filling spaces with positive energy. Like I have a crystal behind me. I love crystals because, you know, as much as they may be seen as kind of symbolic of, you know, new age or whatever, crystals actually do hold energy very effectively.

atomic structure, the molecular structure of crystals holds energy. you know, if you pick up a crystal in a shop, one will feel different from another. And if you pay attention to how it feels and you can clear that energy with your intention and love, positive energy, you can clear it and fill it with positive energy or whatever emotion you want that crystal to radiate. And then it will actually radiate that in a space.

crystals are something that we can, know, beyond just being beautiful and something that can remind us of something, they actually can hold and vibrate energy in a space. so, yeah, so I think, you know, if this is all connected, and that what you’re saying about, you know, being that change that we want to see, you know, that statement, being that in our business, you know, is such a

really important insight. Yeah, and I was saying this to one of my coaching clients today. I said when things are not going well in your business, then the first question you should ask yourself is what am I contributing to that not working the way I would like to see it? And when you can ask that really hard question and be really honest about it, you’ll usually find that there is something

And it’s probably energetic about how you’re feeling about something or what you’re thinking about. Something is not the most supportive of what it is you’re trying to accomplish. So for those people who are struggling to get the right kind of clients that they want to have in the business, then they’re probably not aligned with what it is that other person wants. And so their wants and the other person’s desires and wants are not aligned.

and that’s not going to work for them. it’s kind of, it’s really important to think about that. And if you’re not getting the kind of results that you want from your employees, what are you contributing to that? How are you showing up to that conversation? How are you helping to guide that person to let go of whatever those negative thoughts are that they have that’s keeping them from being a very productive member of your team? Because everyone has things happening.

And we often don’t know what’s in the background. these are all things to think about. I, you and I could sit here and talk for hours about this stuff. I love it. Yeah. One of the things I would say is my gosh, you know, if you haven’t ever meditated, I have been to a few meditation retreats and I would like to go to more. And I think that what I learned through 10 years of meditation now is how critically important it is.

to stop thinking about the real world that we see, and that’s what we call real, but the real world is really what’s up here. So if we can remember that, if we can separate enough that we can just feel who we are and feel where we are, we can make some huge shifts in our lives. And I would say even at my senior age that,

I really feel like the older I get, I’m not going to say the smarter, but I’m becoming more aware of what it is that I can do to shift where I am. And I think we all have that opportunity. So we can either choose to stay in a negative space or we can choose to shift our thoughts into a more positive place in our mental and physical and emotional being.

Those are just a couple of thoughts that you triggered. love that, Gail. I absolutely experienced that. I think we all have had those days where you just wake up in a bad mood or where you’re stressed and you’re just rushing. And that’s, of course, when you spill your coffee on yourself or you pinch your finger or you do the things that make things even worse when you’re in that.

out of alignment and flow state, you know? And so how do we shift back? You know, for me, meditation has been essential for that. I think for most people, what I’ve found through the heart math approach, this is just one type of meditation, but it seems to work for a lot of people. It’s very effective at just dropping out of the head into the heart and just breathing a little more deeply in. Imagine you’re breathing in and out through your heart, just doing that for like,

30 seconds will literally change your state of being. And we all have 30 seconds in the day to shift if we want to and to think of something we’re grateful for. We can add that to just breathe in and receive that gratitude and send it out in and out from our heart. It’s so powerful. We actually start our Monday team meetings with a three minute meditation. Sometimes I guide it and sometimes

You know, we’ve all meditated at this point a lot and sometimes I don’t, but we all choose our focus for the meditation. And it’s just wonderful to come in, you know, on a busy Monday, Mondays are always busy. There’s that energy to Monday, but to show up at the office first thing in the morning, we’re all sitting around the table and we can allow ourselves just to breathe and to arrive, to just listen to the sound in the room, just to breathe in and out through our heart, think of something we’re grateful for.

It’s amazing how that shifts the energy in the team from just like go, go, go, and already thinking about all the things that are, you know, that we need to do, or that may not be going well, that we need to solve. And so that’s really helpful. And then after that, we go around and everybody says something they’re grateful for. If people are not feeling it, they can pass, but pretty much always, you even if people are going through a rough time, they can think of something that they’re thankful for in their life.

And it’s so cool to hear what each other’s thankful for. We learn so much about each other’s personal lives. What we did over the weekend is often a topic of time with family or friends or in nature or with pets. And it’s just, it’s a way to bring more love and care into the field before we start talking about what we’re gonna do for the week. And so that’s really helpful.

But, know, just, I mean, I think starting our day with that, just even for a few minutes on our own, I still meditate every day. there’s rare days where I miss it, but then I kind of, I notice it later and go, my gosh, okay, you know, I’ll find a time later today to do it. Well, yeah. And I do TM, is specific to, you’re supposed to do it twice a day in the morning and the afternoon. The reason you do the afternoon is because you’re clearing whatever happened during the day.

so that you can go into your evening with more awareness and maybe presence and what’s going on. So, okay, so let’s take one of those as one of your takeaways, which is to meditate. I think that’s a good idea. And how about two other quick ones as we wrap up this podcast? I would say thinking about how we impact our lives through our own state of being, that it’s a reflection of

us of our state of being. It’s really reality is like a mirror and it’s constantly reflecting our own state of being and our business is the same as well as our family life, our personal life that when we, think meditation is a great first step. then from there dropping into who do I want to be and really breathing that in and out and being that allowing ourselves to start to, to be who we really are that will.

change everything. It changes everything. And of course we forget and we drop in and out of it and we start to notice the beliefs that we’ve had, you know, that we’ve accumulated over life that tell us we need to be someone else or, you know, do something else than what’s natural or authentic for us. But then we can look into those beliefs and come back to who we are. So I think that’s really a powerful next step. then what I would

think beyond that is just how our intention affects everything, our business, our personal life, and just our projects. so finding ways, just even a simple way with clients to clarify the intention for the project, to clarify the real meaning and purpose and value, it’s such a key. It’s such a key to everything on the project.

And to go back to that again and again as a touchstone is such a powerful and meaningful thing to do and to hold space for a client as they go through what really one of the most significant things in their life is changing a home, remodeling, rebuilding, moving. It’s huge. And so they have an opportunity for, it’s an opportunity for them to think about who do they want to be because, you know, remodeling a home in a way is sort of an identity shift for people.

an opportunity for them to think about who do they want to be and how do we create spaces that reflect who they want to be, not just who they are. Love that. Well, with that, thank you so much for being a part of the podcast again. And you never know, we’ll have to do another one, but I look forward to seeing you on Monday and happy birthday today. Thank you so much. You’re so kind. I hope you have a wonderful. We’ll my best to your team and to Joe and I will talk to you all on Monday. Okay.

Thank you, Gail. All right. See you soon.

Many interior designers are uncomfortable with the idea of selling their services to a client. For them, the word “selling” carries a connotation of persuading someone to buy something that maybe they don’t want or can’t afford. There are other ways to approach a sale, however. Keep in mind that prospective clients are looking for help from you, the expert. Explain to them what you have to offer and explore whether you are a good fit for each other.

In this episode, Gail talks with Shannyn Lee, managing director of Win Without Pitching, based in Kaslo, British Columbia, Canada. Shannyn stated the firm seeks to help people in the interior design industry and others to learn to sell more professionally.

Shannyn stressed that designers need to accept that “it’s okay to sell and price like the experts they are.” She said a professional sales approach is a combination of understanding the client’s mindset and then giving them a framework for the different conversations that happen during the sales process. Let them know they have choices and options.

From the designer’s perspective, said Shannyn, think of the discussion with the prospective client not as an opportunity to pitch a sale but as a qualifying conversation. Leave room for the client to open up and talk about what they want, what’s motivating them to make a change. You’re looking to see if you’re a good fit for each other. You may find that you have reservations about taking on this project or working with this client.

“It’s okay to have power in the sale,” said Shannon. She advises that before meeting with the prospective client that designers repeat a helpful mantra: “I am the expert. I am the price to be won. I am on a mission to help. I will only be able to help you if you let me lead. All will not follow, and that is okay.”

For many designers, Shannyn said, it’s a matter of getting “comfortably uncomfortable” with selling. They just need to shift their mindset that it’s okay. “When you have the right mindset, typically the correct behaviors follow.” Keep in mind it takes a lot of practice to build up your confidence. Work on your skills and give it time.

Shannyn noted some common mistakes designers make when selling or pitching a project. She also discussed why the better option for some designers might be not to sell but rather to hire a business development person to handle that side of the business.

For all that and more, listen to the entire podcast.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s12e2-shownotes

Mentioned in This Podcast

For more information about Win Without Pitching, including the many resources they have available, go to the firm’s website at www.winwithoutpitching.com.

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

Welcome to the podcast, Shannon. I am so excited to have you on here. Thank you, Gail. I am too. I’ve been looking forward to this, so thanks for having me on. it’s my pleasure. Well, we met in a mastermind, and it has been a lot of fun. And I have found out what great expertise you have in an area that I think will be great for our listeners today, which is sales, especially for people in the services business. Yes.

I can’t wait to talk about that. But first, I have to ask you a few questions that are a little bit personal, and I would love to hear about these. And we asked this question about what your biggest life lesson was. Why don’t you share with us what you shared? So I have to remember honestly what I shared, but I’ll tell you what I think I shared. Okay.

There’s a lot of life lessons, but I know one that made a big impact on me was when I was fired from a job. And it definitely was humbling, but also lit a fire. And what I mean by that was it caused me to take a hard look at who I was and what I was doing and where I belonged. And I did not let myself give in to the story that I had failed.

I reframed it for myself because I do think that was the truth. And the truth was it wasn’t the right fit. I shouldn’t have been there. They probably shouldn’t have hired me. And it was a beautiful moment in a lot of ways because it caused me to really just think hard about where do I add value? Where do I want to be? And that really started a journey for me that ended up at win without pitching eventually. But it started a journey for me where I went to work for small to medium sized independently owned businesses and left.

corporate America, which I wouldn’t have traded that experience on the corporate side, but I certainly figured out what my unique ability was after that. Well, I think sometimes it’s important to have those setbacks because if we had it all going so well, I don’t think we would learn the lessons that we really are here to learn. 100%. I am unafraid of failure, of setbacks,

hard conversations, like it just changed so much for me in that moment. And so it was a good thing in the end. Well, that’s an interesting comment that you bring up about having the hard conversations. I was just having a conversation with another client this week about hard conversations and I still struggle with it. tell me your secret to doing that. You know, it’s a really good question and I don’t know for sure if I’ve landed on why it’s

okay for me or why it feels comfortable for me. But I think it has something to do with a combination of life experience, a combination of just trusting myself and knowing what’s right and finding the right words to convey that to somebody that that honestly come with a lot of love and a lot of care. Like I really believe in empathy and vulnerability in life and in the professional setting. And I think if we’re just really focused on

the greater good and this idea of an abundance mindset. When something feels hard, I think we should be able to talk through it. And I did have a boss at a previous job tell me one time that it’s almost like climbing a mountain or having a baby. She said, like, it’s scary and the moment is going to come and it might cause you, this is what she said, it was so like visual. It might cause you to just kind of feel like you have to throw up.

But the minute you start talking, everything is okay. The minute you start climbing, everything is okay. The minute labor starts and you’re having that baby, everything is okay. So it funny analogies I know, but it really like struck me as yeah, it might feel hard in the moment, but the minute you get going, it’ll work itself out. I think too what happens, I know for me, if I’m pushing myself and I haven’t done something before or it seems uncomfortable to do, I probably should do it because I’m going to learn from that. And it’s

hard to overcome that resistance to doing that, making that leap from wherever you are, which is a status quo to something that’s going to be probably a hugely important learning lesson for you in life, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s okay to practice a little and think a little bit about what that hard conversation is going to be and how you might handle it. So you’re just a little more prepared.

And then I think you don’t want to overthink it. It’s time to just take action. that’s another really good topic too, which is following that gut instinct about what to do. And I think sometimes we take that away from, or we quit doing it because we feel as if we should follow a process or do things a certain way or somebody has taught us a certain way. But in the end, I think that gut instinct, don’t you, is really critical.

Trust your gut. It is really critical and I agree with you that most of us don’t give ourselves enough credit for trusting our gut instinct. And after years of coaching and working with lots and lots of clients, they are smart and they have good instincts and I see it in them. And I see it as they’re working through a problem and talking it out. And in most cases, I’m just raising my hand saying, you actually know what to do here. You just need to trust your gut and…

and be unafraid to say what you need to say. So I think we all need to listen to ourselves a little more. that’s well said. Well, and because you’re teaching how to sell without really being salesy, I think it’s so interesting that we as individuals tend to maybe have a poor feeling about people that are in sales, which is unfortunate because we all sell every day.

We sell our ideas, we sell what we want, if we’re trying to talk our spouse into doing something that maybe they didn’t think about or didn’t know they wanted to do. So we want to sell them on our ideas so that we’re getting them to do what we want them to do. So I don’t think it’s a bad word. So talk to me about sales. Why did you get so interested in that? Yeah, I kind of fell into what I guess is considered a more

formal sales role, but you’re right that I’d been selling all my life in various forms. And I really view selling as a mechanism for helping and as a mechanism for change. And again, it comes down to how are you framing this for yourself? And is it coming from a place of good? Like, I really think we should be using our power for good in the sale and can we help these clients? And so for me, it happened at that moment when

corporate America ended and the design firm that I had hired to create the annual report for this company that I was working for said, hey, why don’t you come and sell for us? And I just thought that is wild. I don’t know what that means, but I love the culture there. I love what you do. I love being around that creative personality and mindset. So yes, and then I’ll figure it out later. So it was a jump moment and a trust my gut moment. And they had a really

values-driven approach to selling, which was just about that. Like, can we help? Let’s have a conversation and uncover things and see if we can help. And that felt really good to me. Well, interestingly, you and I connected again through the mastermind group that we were in. And you became my mentor for the session and the block, which I thought was really fabulous because

You just happen to have some experience in our industry. How random is that? Yeah, it was amazing. Maybe it was intentional. Maybe they knew. I don’t know. They probably did. Well, I was so thrilled about it. And so I feel like we’ve I’ve met a new friend. And what I love, too, is that you have worked with other design firms to help them know how to sell at a I think in a more professional way.

So talk to me about that and talk to me about some of the things that you’ve done to help people learn how to navigate this because it is navigating something that’s not comfortable. definitely. Yeah. The work that we do at Win Without Pitching is focused on that, what we call expert-based advisor, creative professional. And that can mean traditional design advertising, but we do a lot of work with interior design, architecture.

financial advisors. it’s experts who need to understand that it is okay to sell and price like the experts that they are and bring their expert selves into the sale and not feel like they have to turn into a salesperson. It’s a combination of understanding our clients mindset, what motivates them, are they motivated by the need to be liked?

Do they want to win? They’re really competitive. Kind of understanding where their mindset is and why that mindset can sometimes cause them to feel uncomfortable in a sales cycle or do things they wish they wouldn’t do in a sales cycle. So it really begins there, understanding mindset which drives behavior. And then giving them frameworks for the different conversations that happen in the sales. So a framework for how do you qualify? How do you…

understand if you’re a good fit and if the client’s a good fit and a framework for how do you really uncover the value that you think you can create and how do we talk about price in a way that is grounded in a vision and in a strategy, not about how much you cost as an interior design firm, for example. And then how do you bring the client options in the form of a one page three option proposal so that you introduce choice into the equation for that client.

When clients learn these frameworks, then they have a process and things become easier from the standpoint that they know what they need to do in each part of the sales cycle. They don’t feel like they’re starting from scratch, confidence builds. And it’s not scripts. We don’t want to just put words in somebody’s mouth. We want their personality and expertise to be a part of these conversations. And so that’s why we work within frameworks so that there’s room.

right, to let you shine and to let what you do really come through. And it just brings a lot of confidence and settles things down and brings organization to the sales process, which just can solve everything in the moment for somebody. yeah, and I think to every conversation is different. You don’t know how people are going to react to whatever you’re bringing to them. But this comes back to just having enough.

practice that you know what you need to say or maybe some of the things you want to make sure you touch on in a conversation with people. And maybe you could talk a little bit about that and how to prepare for a sales conversation. Yeah, let’s start with a qualifying conversation. That’s what I would view as the first kind of person to person conversation. And this is a conversation where you’re assessing fit, you’re not trying to sell something. And so I think

Relieve the pressure from yourself the first time that you have a conversation with a potential client and let them know that too. Let them know what’s about to happen. And so what I coach is to just say, it’s great to be on this call with you today. I’m looking forward to learning more. What we’re going to do today is see if we’re a good fit to work together. And if we are, then we’ll move to the next step, which is talking about level of investment, goals, vision. What does success look like?

And then if that all feels good, I’m going to put a proposal in front of you that has three different ways we can work together. And that’ll be our time to decide, are we going to move forward together or not? If that all sounds good, let’s jump in. So I think that if we can just set some context in the beginning, everybody takes a collective breath because the person on the other side doesn’t feel like they’re going to get pushed and sold to. And the person doing the selling feels like they can calm down and have a conversation and focus on that client.

Then really what happens when you begin to qualify, I think is get an understanding of the want beyond the immediate need that that person is coming to you for. Maybe they come to you because they want a kitchen remodel, but if you really find out why and what the bigger want is, you might learn that the footprint of their home is not working for their family. It feels too boxed in. They want a more open floor plan. They spend a lot of time outside, so they like an outdoor cooking area.

So if you can ask this question that we learned from Dan Sullivan, the leader of Strategic Coach, it’s called the Desired Future State question, and you ask, hey, you and I are sitting down three years from today, and you’re really happy. What’s happened in those three years to make you so happy? And then you embrace silence and let them begin talking and sharing a vision. It changes the dynamic because you’re really learning, okay, what do they want beyond the need?

And let’s put the focus on them and hear from them. And it opens up a different approach in that conversation afterwards. know, it’s interesting because I’ve talked to so many of our clients who’ve gone through very difficult conversations with prospects and they haven’t gotten the projects and they’ve gotten very frustrated about it. So I’m sure that there are some things that you see that are frequently done that are mistakes. So let’s talk a little bit about those mistakes. What are some things they should avoid? Yeah.

I think specifically when I’m working with interior design clients, architects, it’s so deeply personal because you’re working in somebody’s home in most cases if you’re focused on the residential space. So there is a need for more reassurance, which means less jargon, cut out all of the jargon that your industry uses and speak in plain English so this person can understand you. They may not understand what

a carpenter does or what a cabinet maker does or what the electrician does. They may not understand why a design plan is needed before you start design, right? There’s so many things that they need to be educated on in most cases that I think it’s time to just slow down and remember, are you speaking in a way that is jargon free and are you educating them about what the process is and what they can expect? And so I think beginning there and asking those questions,

helps people to feel a little more taken care of and reassured and a little less like they’re just gonna be kinda sold something for the sake of being sold something. So that’s one thing that we work on. The other thing that I know that is really important, especially when you’re just, let’s use the example of doing a project within somebody’s home is give them a sense of what the entire investment might look like. And…

What I mean by that is I believe all of us in our expert professions have a sense of a price range once they get a sense of what is it that the client’s looking for. You may not be able to give it to them exactly in the qualifying conversation because you’re going to need more information, but I think it’s okay to at least float a range and see is there a financial fit. especially in the interior design space, the idea of, there is a phase that might look like

a diagnostic phase where you’re learning more of visiting their home, coming back to them then with design options and directions, right? So that’s a phase that has a certain price attached to it. Then there is the actual work that happens certainly through the interior designer, but a contractor is likely going to be pulled in, right? And other experts, cabinet maker, whatever the case may be, somebody to do the tile work. And so I think if you can talk in terms of

Here’s how this works. Here’s what fees look like to work with me. And here’s what you can expect in terms of the fees for the people that are actually going to execute it. And all in that could look like 50,000 to 200,000, depending on which direction you choose. How does that range of investment feel to you? It’s that it’s not, we’re not trying to sell something. Remember, we’re just trying to assess financial fit and educate them a bit. And I think those things get

lost or forgotten or people are just afraid in the moment to go there. They are, and they’ve been told not to talk about money, but I think you used an interesting word. said, how do you feel about that? So you are eliciting a different response than just saying, is that what you had in mind is different than how do you feel about it? Right. Right. And I think that’s an important phrase to be aware of because we are

We’re in the business of understanding of what that person needs. And we’re here to decide for ourselves, is this a fit for us? Do we want to work with that client? And is that a project I want to work on? So there are lot of decisions. And the other thing that I think we often forget as designers and maybe selling our business services is that we get to choose too. We don’t necessarily want all of the clients that are coming our way.

And they may come with a desire to work with you. And then they also have a fear that you might reject them, which I found to be quite interesting from a woman who was in New York and she was an agent for designers. And she told me that and I thought, I never thought about that. They don’t want to be rejected because you don’t want to work with them. So it’s a very delicate balance of emotional connections and emotional commitments that people have to make to be able to

complete that next step and get to that commitment of working together. You’re so spot on with this idea of you are demonstrating selectivity and assessing it as well. And you should be because you don’t want to work with everybody. You want to work with clients who will let you be the expert and lead, who believe in your point of view, your approach, your design style, and who you know you can create some real value for.

And that’s what you want to tell them in the beginning. That helps everybody who we all bring our own fears and baggage to these kinds of conversations. And that’s why you want to let that person know, hey, we’re going to see if we’re a good fit. If we think, yeah, this makes sense. So I’m going to ask you a bunch of questions. I want you to ask a bunch of questions. And at the end, we’ll see. Like, how are we feeling about this? Should we keep going? That is such a helpful moment just to acknowledge, yeah, we’re all coming into this with some unknowns and some.

concerns probably. So let’s just explore that. It’s interesting because I had a sales conversation yesterday and it was one of those where and you know how this is, it’s called a takeaway. Yeah. And so I was saying, I’m not sure that I’m really the right person for you. And it’s so interesting to watch because that is a position of power. We forget that we actually have power in the conversation too. It’s too cited.

And you get to decide and I was not sure I wanted to work with this person. And I put it out there and yet the more I was a little bit unsure about whether it’s the right thing, the more she wanted it. So I was like, okay, be careful because then you’re going to get yourself into a situation where you talk yourself into working with somebody that you’re not sure that you should be working with. talk about that a little bit. that, that is

what I think of as creating some healthy tension in the sale, allowing that person to feel on the other end, like, you know, I’m not sure, and here’s why. There are some things we need to talk about that I have concerns based on some things that you shared, which is okay, we’re not a fit for everybody. And you can feel in that moment that person leaning into you, right? Starting to pitch themselves to you, for lack of a better word. But you’re right, you can’t.

You can’t kind of get drawn into that and let the kind of excitement or that power that you’re feeling in that moment turn into something that lets you lose sight of, should I do this or not? But it allows you to hover above, I guess is the best way to think about it from 30,000 feet and kind of look down and kind of work to emotionally detach and really see, is this the right fit or not? So that idea of a takeaway or creating some healthy tension in the sail.

is a powerful moment. I again, like, use your power for good. It’s okay to have power in the sale, just use it in the right way. Interesting, because women I think are a little afraid of some of the conversations they need to have, especially if somebody seems to be in a more powerful position, or you have a big stake in this where you need it to pay the bills. And I see a lot of designers taking projects

that they should not take because they are thinking, I’ve got to pay, I have staff, I need to keep them busy. So how do you overcome that fear of not having enough to pay the bills and be willing to say no, even if it is wrong fit? There’s a couple things going on in that moment when fear sets in and I have to pay the bills and you chase bad revenue as a result.

One thing that we guide and advise on is this idea of a mantra before you go into your sales conversations. And it does go back to understanding like what’s motivating you to behave or feel the way you feel. Okay, if times are tight and you have to pay the bills, say that, recognize that, and then kind of flick it off into the universe and then take a quiet moment and say the mantra, which is, I am the expert.

I am the prize to be won. I am on a mission to help. I will only be able to help if you let me lead. All will not follow and that is okay. Take a breath and go into the conversation and work very hard to emotionally detach to take a hard look at what is right for the business and what is right for that client. Now, that can be helpful in a meditative moment before a sales conversation.

but I think there’s a bigger thing happening potentially. If times are tough, sure, the economy can be a driver, other factors. It could also be a signal that your positioning is not correct. You are not seen as meaningfully different in the marketplace. You’re viewed as a generalist or a commodity. And it could be a moment where it’s time to take a look at the business. And instead of being an interior designer for all,

Do you need to start to narrow in and be the expert in helping people age in place or be the expert in kitchen design or whatever the case may be? There’s a few things that could be happening in that moment that all affect your ability to sell and your confidence. Now that’s well said. think, so what we’re touching on a little bit or have talked about throughout the podcast is mindset.

And there is a mindset shift that has to happen for someone to feel maybe comfortably uncomfortable with having the sales conversations. think you have to be there first before you can get to comfortable where it’s no big deal. You don’t attach to the outcome. You’re more interested in being curious and seeing if there is a good fit with someone.

You’ve alluded to it throughout, and I think the mindset piece is a huge piece of this. So besides the mantra, what can someone do to overcome maybe their fears around the selling process, their fears about talking about money in particular, and the fears about rejection? it’s not… Mindset is so important because when you have the right mindset, typically the correct behaviors follow.

And so I do think that when you are not an expert at something in your business, right, many people are founders who started their business because they’re experts in whatever their craft is, interior design, but they don’t necessarily understand how to sell or understand marketing or understand how to be strategic with their P &L. That’s when it’s okay to go get some help to learn how to build some

skill and competence in areas that are going to help your business grow and thrive. And this is not a promotion to go by sales training. It’s a call out for people to pay attention to where they need some help and go get that help. And it is part of why I also talk about positioning, because I think that I know that when you are well positioned and you are seen as meaningfully different,

you make better business decisions as a result. You come to the day-to-day of your company with more confidence. And when it comes to something like getting better at selling, getting some expert help and then a lot of practice, frankly. Like a lot of this takes reps, right? And practice to really feel good about these different areas that you need to have some competency within in your business. Yes, and I think sometimes

We think that as courses an owner and a founder your job your number one job is to bring in business Yeah, you have to hunt and gather and bring in the bacon for everyone to eat and if you don’t you’re not going to have a successful business Yeah, and some people are just not geared for that and I don’t think they realize how important the sales process and having Having that steady flow of people in the business is to their their long-term future

Right. And so you have to have these sales skills. And I think that people think they can wing it, but it’s if you wing it, you don’t have that practice. And so, for example, you have somebody who’s in the Olympics and they’re a diver. How many times do they do a dive before they’re in the Olympics? They have practiced that for thousands of times before they ever get on the stage. So we as leaders of our business cannot assume

that we know how to do this right without scripting and practice and the scripting just to help you understand how to glue it together, but then set aside that script and then use the practice as the way to communicate after that. It’s so true. I think that people need to take a hard look at that if they’re going to decide to start a business. There are some things that are just going to need to happen and be true in order for it.

to work and that’s where you make a decision. Am I cut out for this or not? I will say I have had founders of businesses that I’ve worked with that have tried very hard and done the sales training and really put the practice in and in the end they couldn’t do it, right? It wasn’t them and they had to make the decision. Okay, am I going to bring somebody in to help me with this or am I going to hire an outside sales consultant to come in and play that role for me? They’re outsourced.

sales firms that you can hire as well. I think that’s okay, as long as you have done your due diligence and given it the effort that it deserves and not tell yourself a story that you can’t do it just because you’re afraid. Then I think it’s okay to take a hard look at, all right, maybe I need some expertise in this area in the form of a sales leader to come in and really lead this for me. all of those things need to be considered. But it’s pretty rare that I’ve worked and I mean, I’ve worked with hundreds, if not thousands of clients now over the years that

somebody doesn’t learn and grow and transform and gain confidence and then have the ability to go sell for their company. Exactly. And I do believe too that a lot of your work is making sure that your marketing connects with the people that you’re trying to attract. Yes. So that your sales process is not as onerous and hard. And if you’ve done a really good job of, like you said, positioning well,

and being able to state your case and you’re not willing to leave a conversation without having the tough conversation about money because money is absolutely vital to every conversation. Do not ever skip it in a sales conversation because it’s a mistake and it will bite you in the butt. Yes, it will. And it wastes everybody’s time and nobody’s happy in the end and then it’s bad taste in everybody’s mouth.

I’ve definitely worked with clients who it was a big hurdle to get over the confidence of talking about money and I’ll guide them to just say things in the moment, call out their vulnerability. Hey, okay, we’ve come to that point in the conversation where we have to talk about the budget. I know this can be uncomfortable, but let me check in with you on a few things. Like just name it for everybody. the money talk can be hard, right? It’s okay to do that as well. Great. Well, I like that.

How about a few more tips of things that you can share with the listeners that will help them gain confidence and maybe help them win more business? Get good at saying no is one tip. Yeah. And sometimes it’s just hard because you don’t want to offend somebody or make them feel less than. And so I think it’s a matter again of finding the language that you can handle it with grace.

So for me, it sounds something maybe like, it’s been really lovely to talk to you today and learn more about your project. There were a few things that came up that just sort of tell me we’re not the right fit. And so I think this time around, I’ll take a pass, but I would love to leave the door open now that you know a bit more about us and how we work in case things change down the road. So that’s one way. The other way is refer them to somebody else that you know that you think would be a better fit if that feels better for you.

and just thank them so much for taking the time. When you can do it that way, your integrity is intact and everybody walks away feeling okay about it. They feel heard, they feel taken care of. And if they don’t, you are honest at least and you are kind in your words but ruthless in your behavior that you’re not going to take on a client who isn’t a fit that you know will not work for either party. So get good at saying no, that’s one thing for sure. That’s great.

Well, let’s get back to the thing that you mentioned earlier, which was if you want to hire or feel it’s better for you to hire somebody for a business development role, how do you find them? How do you train them? Where do you find those unicorns? Yes, we all need unicorns. There must be a unicorn service on the internet, right? Exactly. Yeah, I think it does really start with, are you ready to set somebody up for success in that role? Right.

Are you clear about who you help and how you’re positioning? Do you have a marketing effort that supports driving those inbound leads or at least gives that salesperson the content and messaging and case studies to go tell the story proactively? So I think you have to assess that first because you want to set your salesperson up for success. And then I think that look in your network.

Look at people that you know, that you admire that might be doing this work already. I think that’s always a good place to start. I know it’s different in your business where your clients maybe are largely working within residential interior design. So I would say, look at your clients. Is there a client that you might tap, right? That loves your business that’s been working with you for a while that you see that capability in. It’s a little different for your clients, you know, because they’re working with homeowners and such. But I do think that

there are enough niche services out there today that Google sales recruiting for interior design. I talked with somebody today, the other day that’s in our mastermind group that focuses on helping find salespeople for marketing services firms. That’s what they do. And so I think there’s enough niching out there today that it’s probably worth looking at maybe hiring somebody to help you find that person or recruiter or headhunter, whatever the case may be.

And I can work within your own networks and membership organizations and they have job boards, do a good job of writing the description, LinkedIn is a great place. So there’s a lot of ways to go about it. Yeah, it’s different. And I know that you and I have been listening a lot to the episodes and the trainings that we’ve been going through. And it’s very clear that you have to have

at some point in your business, somebody else doing the sales for you as you’re expanding because you cannot continue to fill the pipeline all by yourself. Somebody else needs to be helping you with that. Yeah, that’s this, whole idea of you’re doing a good job of growing your business, you know, right? Like we’re learning about in our mastermind group and eventually someday you may want to retire. Well, how do you, how do you scale it? How do you transfer the knowledge? How do you set it up so that it’s not

a cult of personality built around you, the founder. Absolutely. Well, we’re at the end of our podcast, and it’s always a good time to ask you, what are the three things that you think are the most impactful and important for people to take away from today’s session? Trust your gut, please. Believe in yourself and trust your gut, and don’t be afraid to speak up. And think about those moments in your business

where you know there’s an obstacle you have to overcome, or you know there’s a common thing that always comes up. And create a little tool for yourself where those things are listed and you have it by you when you go into these sales conversations with maybe some prompts about the language for how you might address some of these things. Trust your gut. You know what typically comes up, so be prepared to answer and overcome or have a conversation. I think the other thing is…

just don’t feel like you have to turn into a salesperson. You get to be the expert that you are in that sale. It’s almost like coaching the conversion is the way that I think about it. The sale should be a sample of what it’s going to be like to work with you. So don’t be afraid to let it be that and release the need to sell frankly and be okay having conversations to learn and to see like, is this a good fit? You know, and I think

find my final piece of advice really goes back to that. Don’t be afraid to say no. We’ve all got to get better at that, even in hard times. I think those are excellent things to end on today. And thank you so much, Shannon, as always, it is wonderful to spend time with you. And every time I get together with you, think we need to

have a of wine together. I know exactly. is the thing, Gail, like we have a friendship out of this and it’s just been so wonderful. So thank you so much for having me. it’s a pleasure. Thank you so much.