Dads With Daughters w/ Dr. Christopher Lewis

Discovering the Path to Better Father-Daughter Relationships

In a recent episode of the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Madeline Anderson, author of Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. Madeline shared insights and stories from her book and personal life, shedding light on the unique and impactful father-daughter relationship. Below, we delve into the highlights of their conversation and explore how her insights can help fathers strengthen their bonds with their daughters.

The Genesis of "Girl Dad"

Madeline Anderson, inspired by the unique and nurturing relationship with her father, set out to write *Girl Dad*. She recognized that her bond with her dad was rare and wanted to share the principles that made their relationship special. The book is a culmination of her personal experiences and interviews with various fathers and daughters. The key lesson: making life fun and enjoyable for daughters from a young age can build strong, lasting relationships.

Understanding the Importance of Small Moments

A recurring theme in Madeline's book is the impact of small, consistent gestures over grandiose acts. During the podcast, she shared touching stories from daughters who cherished simple, heartfelt actions from their fathers. For instance, one father left a note in his daughter's freezer that she found after he moved her into college. Such acts of love and thoughtfulness resonate deeply, often becoming treasured memories.

Building Lifelong Friendships

Madeline emphasized the importance of fathers not only as authority figures but as friends. By making activities enjoyable and relating to their daughters' interests, fathers can cultivate friendship and trust. She shared an anecdote about her father building a playhouse in their attic, complete with a rock wall entry. This creative and fun project strengthened their bond, underpinning the larger message of her book—having fun together can transform the father-daughter relationship.

Embracing Your Authentic Self

Madeline also discussed the importance of fathers remaining true to themselves. Instead of sacrificing their interests, fathers should incorporate their daughters into their world. If a father enjoys hiking, for instance, taking his daughter along can create shared experiences and memories. When daughters feel included in their father's life, they are more likely to share their own worlds in return.

The Power of Understanding

Madeline urged fathers to prioritize understanding their daughters at an individual level. Simple practices like sharing "roses and thorns" of the day can open channels of communication and provide insights into their daughters' lives. By knowing her highs and lows, fathers can support their daughters more effectively and build deeper connections.

Balancing Work and Family

Madeline spoke about her father's ability to balance a demanding work schedule while maintaining a close relationship with his daughters. She admired his ability to integrate his work world with his family life, showcasing that with some creativity and effort, work commitments need not overshadow family time. This approach can provide daughters with positive role models and inspire them in their own professional pursuits.

The Birth of Girl Dad Network

Expanding on her book's mission, Madeline is launching the Girl Dad Network, an online community offering resources, mentorship, and a platform for fathers to connect and learn from one another. This network will feature monthly meetings, courses tailored by age group, gift guides, and resources for both fathers and daughters—intending to be a comprehensive support system for "girl dads" everywhere.

The conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Madeline Anderson illuminated the profound impact of conscious and loving fatherhood on daughters. Madeline's work serves as a reminder that it's the little things that often matter the most. By being genuine, involving daughters in their passions, understanding their needs, and balancing work and family life, fathers can build meaningful and lasting relationships with their daughters.

For more resources, fathers can visit the Girl Dad Network at girldadnetwork.com or explore Madeline's book, *Girl Dad*, available through Amazon. As underscored by Dr. Lewis, dads don't need to be perfect; they just need to be present, engaged, and open to the journey of fatherhood.

Remember, every small gesture counts, and every day is an opportunity to build a stronger bond with your daughter.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down and talk to you. I say this every week, but it's so true because I learn from you as much as I'm hoping that you're learning from the people that we have on, the resources that we're sharing to help you be that dad that you wanna be to your daughters. And every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests, different people with different experiences. Last week, you had an opportunity to meet Kekoa and Madeline Anderson. They both were on. I love having fathers and daughters on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]: And I introduced you to the fact that Madeline is the author of a book called Girl Dad, Stories, Lessons and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. And we didn't really talk a lot about that book. But let me give you a little more context. So Madeline is an author and entrepreneur. She's got a passion for neuroscience, psychology, writing, and speaking. She's the daughter of a girl dad. We met him last week. And he's a father of 3 daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]: So he's got a lot of experience in that. And over a number of years, she spent over a number of years, she had the opportunity to interview a wide array of fathers and daughters to write this book about how you can be the best dad that you can be to your daughters. It really fits in well with the podcast and what we do in fathering together. So I'm really excited to have her back again this week to talk more about this journey that she's been on to be able to help dance and to learn a little bit more about what she learned in that process as well. Madeleine, thanks so much for being back again this week.

Madeline Anderson [00:02:02]: Thank you so much for having me, Christopher. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:05]: Well, I am excited to have you back. And it was so fun having your dad on last week and learning about the journey that the both that both of you were on. And I love some of the stories that he was sharing and some of the stories you were sharing about golfing and being able to, be that multi sport, fed into this book. But I I guess I wanna go back to the genesis because you're not a mother. You're not a father. You're writing a book, though, about being a great dad to daughters, and I think that has to have come from what we heard last week in the relationship that you have with your own father. But give me some of the genesis of what made you decide that you wanted to spend the time, the effort to interview all these people, to gain all this insight, and then put this book out into the world.

Madeline Anderson [00:02:54]: So I wrote this book because I have an incredible relationship with my dad. And, obviously, y'all heard that on the last podcast, but I had no idea how rare our relationship is. And I really want to change that. So that's the genesis of the book. And it started out with me writing stories with my dad and how he raised me and my 2 younger sisters. But then it turned into so much more than that as I started interviewing both dads and daughters from all over, like you mentioned. And I think it's really a culmination of their stories, lessons, and advice that really shine throughout the book. And the actual moment that I realized I wanted to write the book was actually an interesting one.

Madeline Anderson [00:03:37]: I was driving in Santa Monica. I could tell you exactly what street I was on and where I was going, but I I just had a thought pop into my head that said, you should write a book called Girl Dad. And like I said, I had always known I had a great relationship with my dad, but this thought just kind of came out of left field. And I've recently read Rick Rubin's book, The Creative Act, A Way of Being. And there was something in it that really stood out to me as relevant to this conversation. And he talked a lot about artists being the vessels for bringing the art or the idea to life and how sometimes ideas just come to you. And you're meant to basically take that idea and put it out into the world. And I really feel that that was the case for girl dad.

Madeline Anderson [00:04:18]: It felt like a calling that's bigger than me, bigger than my stories, and it was something that I almost had to do because it was so important. And I think that having that daughter perspective is hopefully really helpful for dads because I'm trying to shed light on what we care about, what we want from our dads, and how to have a great relationship with us. So that's kind of the the genesis of Girl Dad, and it's evolving every day. I'm so excited. I'm launching Girl Dad Network very, very soon here, and that'll be an online platform for dads with all kinds of different things, like community and monthly live meetings with me, resources for the dads, resource for the daughters. Just kind of a full, all encompassing girl dad takes me takes me and how many people this message reaches.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:11]: You know, one of the things that you said in the past podcast was that and and you reflected that just a moment ago where you talked about how rare it was for you to realize the relationship between you and your dad was not the norm. And you realized that in college when you interacted with other women that didn't have that same relationship. Talk to me about that and what you were hearing from some of these other women about the relationships they did not have. And what were those women telling you about what they wished that relationship was and what was missing in that relationship?

Madeline Anderson [00:05:49]: Yeah. It started the day that I moved in, and I lived in a dorm with I think it was there's 8 of us. So it was a 2 bedroom dorm with I know, I guess it was 6 of us. There was 2 bedrooms, 3 people in each bedroom, 1 bathroom, kind of a tough situation, but my dad helped me move in and he was there. He was so supportive. We grabbed dinner afterwards, the way he was helping me set up and everything. And then all 5 of the other girls were just there in awe. They didn't have a dad who was helping them move in.

Madeline Anderson [00:06:19]: And I definitely took it for granted. It was like, you know, move in day course he's coming. That's what he does. Like, you know, he's just always there for me. And so it was, that was the first moment. And then after he left, they had told me a lot about that. Like, wow, I can't believe your dad did that. That was so nice of him.

Madeline Anderson [00:06:34]: And I I really wish my dad would care for me like that. And and then obviously throughout college, I met ton of other girls who also had either no relationship with their dad or a very negative relationship. And they would say, you know, they hate their dad. You know, just really things that make my skin crawl a little bit and it and it hurts my heart, but it basically, it became very obvious to me that I had something very special And I always knew he was amazing, but I didn't realize how rare our relationship was.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:01]: So you spent all this time, and you started kinda deconstructing the relationship that you had with your own father. And as you were looking at that, what were some of the big points, some of the things that really stood out to you that were unique in your relationship that you weren't seeing in some of the other relationships around you?

Madeline Anderson [00:07:21]: I think it probably tends to start from a young age. And looking back to when me and my sisters were young, one thing he did consistently was make life fun. So he would just put himself in our shoes and try to make every situation fun for us. And by having fun with him, we became more than, you know, just a father daughter dynamic. We became friends. And so we've kind of built that friendship over the years. We're still great friends and he's also my dad and I'm also his daughter, you know, that you can be both. And I think that's one thing that really became clear throughout my adulthood and reflecting on these stories and talking with my younger sisters and trying to think back, okay, What was that thing dad did with us? You know? It's like the common theme is we had so much fun, and nothing was, like, too crazy or such a rare idea.

Madeline Anderson [00:08:12]: It was all just, like, being silly or just hanging out with us and making us feel special. And one thing that comes to mind is he built us this playhouse, and it was just the coolest thing ever. He we had an attic, and so he transformed that attic into our playhouse. And he's super handy. So he did all the insulation and put in wood floors in the attic. And then what he did is he cut a hole in the top of our closet, and then he built a rock wall. And we were helping him throughout the process. So I have photos of me with little mask on up in the attic, and we went to REI and got the rock wall pieces and helped decide, okay, this one should go here.

Madeline Anderson [00:08:48]: This is here. And then it became this epic playhouse where you had to crawl up a rock wall in the closet to get to this playhouse. And we called it Club Wahini because he was born in Hawaii and we would draw on the walls. And every time our friends would come over, they would sign the wall And we would be up there for hours and hours, like, every day, every weekend, we had sleepovers up there. And it was just such a fun thing that he did. And he just he thought of it because he's creative, and he's always thinking about, oh, how can we make this fun? He's he's just really good at turning any situation into something that you wanna be a part of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:24]: So beyond what you were learning specifically about the relationship between you and your dad because by taking a clinical approach to taking a look at the relationship, it's a it it kinda sets makes you have to step back and look from a macro view versus the micro view that you grew up in. But then you went beyond that, and you started to talk to other fathers, daughters about their relationships. What did you learn what did you start learning from those conversations that was eye opening for you as you were preparing and collecting all this data that would eventually be written in your book?

Madeline Anderson [00:10:03]: The first thing that comes to mind is when I interviewed all the daughters, the same theme kind of kept coming up, which is it's all the little things that matter. Like, no daughter said, oh, you know, my dad is really special because on my birthday, he got me this, like, nice purse or, you know, something like big. It's all these little micro moments that add up over time. And funny enough, I had 2 daughters talk a long time, and it was like their favorite story about handwritten notes. One of them was a daughter who her dad helped her move into college as well. And their thing growing up was they would eat ice cream together on the couch. And so when he was moving in, he wrote on a little piece of paper, I wish I was eating. I was here eating ice cream with you and he put it in her freezer.

Madeline Anderson [00:10:50]: And then that night when he left, she was feeling all sad and she went to go get some ice cream and she saw that note there. And she said she started crying, and it was so special. And she's moved multiple times since then. And she told me she's brought the note with her every time and puts it in her freezer. And it's so funny how it's just this simple note. That was only a few words. Right? But it meant the world to her. And then the second example was one of the daughters that I interviewed, she when she was going off to college, she was having a lot of anxiety.

Madeline Anderson [00:11:19]: She has always kind of had a lot of anxiety, struggled with that. And she's grown up really close to home, doesn't like to leave home. And her college was in a different state. It was a flight away. And she was ultimately deciding that she didn't wanna go anymore because she couldn't handle it. And so her dad wrote her the kindest note just outlining how he's so proud of her, how she can do this, he'll be with her every step of the way, and just made her feel like she was capable. And so she ended up going to college at this school that was far away. She brought the note with her.

Madeline Anderson [00:11:50]: She put it in her backpack. She said she took it to every single class, and she felt a sense of comfort just knowing that that note was in her backpack. It was almost as if her dad was there in her presence. And she also told me that she has that note still today even though she's past graduation and everything. And she said it's all kind of crumpled up and, like, it looks old, but she said she'll keep it forever. So I think those are two powerful stories that just go to show you that it's just these little micro moments that means so much to us daughters. And at the end of the day, we just wanna feel loved. We wanna feel seen and heard and special.

Madeline Anderson [00:12:25]: And there's lots of ways to do that, but it could be as simple as a really genuine smile just like every day or a handwritten note or a big hug. Like, there's just these things that matter so much to us, and it's it's not rocket science necessarily, but it takes getting to understand us as individuals and what we need from our dads, to feel supported and loved.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:49]: So you collect all this data. And as someone that went through a doctorate program and wrote a dissertation, I know what that's like, and especially qualitative data when you're pulling all kinds of stories together, and you're trying to figure out some type of semblance of order to all of this and putting it into thematic areas that make sense. Talk to me about some of the high level learning pieces that people are going to find as they go through this book and some of the main points that you are trying to put out there into the world. Not that you have to give away every secret because we want people to read the book, but what are some of the high level areas and things that you really are delving deeper into into in the book itself?

Madeline Anderson [00:13:32]: Yeah. I think the first thing that I I would say is that it's a very positive book. I want dads to read this and to close it and be like, let's go. I'm so happy that I have a daughter. I'm so excited depending on what age level she's at. I'm so excited for her journey to raise her, but I really want people to have fun with it. And I think that plays into one of the first themes and takeaways, which is to don't stop being you. And I think it's an important one because I want you to be the happiest version of yourself because when you're happy, you're usually a better father, a better husband.

Madeline Anderson [00:14:06]: It all starts with not taking away the things that you love. But this book, a lot of my, the, the stories and the themes throughout it talk about not giving those things up, but then in finding ways to include your daughter in them. And I think, you know, when you include her in your world, she will let you into hers. It might happen over time, especially as she gets older, but it pays dividends by making her feel like she's a part of your life and your passions. So I would say that's a that's a big one. Another takeaway would be getting to know your daughter and the importance of that and figuring out how to know your daughter. And there's some great tips in there like plain roses and thorns, which is basically asking her her rose of the day and her thorn of the day. So like a highlight of the day and something that maybe issue wish went differently and how powerful those conversations can be because she might be holding on to something and not going to speak up about it.

Madeline Anderson [00:15:05]: But if you give her the floor and you say, what was your thorn of the day? Then maybe something will come up. Something's going on at school or she's having an argument with a friend and it's really weighing on her. And she might not say anything. But when you give her the microphone and you show her that you're there to support her, you might learn a lot. And same thing goes with the positive side too. You might learn some of her passions that you didn't recognize. So that's another big one. And then I talk a lot about work and life.

Madeline Anderson [00:15:32]: And I think that's a big talking point for me, especially with my dad. He did such a good job of including me in his world with work. And so I never felt like my dad was spending too much time on work and not enough time with the family, even though he spends a ton of time on work. But I look at it as, wow. He's so amazing, so inspired by him. I hope to be as hardworking as him, and I don't look at as look at it as, you know, a negative or something that's taken away from me and my time. So I think there's a lot of tips on all three of those. There's plenty of, you know, tips on other things as well, but I would say those are some of the highlights.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:09]: Now you talked about some of the things that you're planning to do. And as I'm sure going through college, moving into your career, this probably was not on your on your entrepreneurial journey of thinking that this was what you were going to hang your hat on and to put out into the world and to engage fathers in this way. So talk to me about where you are today, where you're going. You talked a little bit about that at the beginning, but let's talk about it again. I'd like to go a little deeper on that and what your hope is for what people are gonna take out of this book and to either take their own relationship to the next level or what that means, but share that with me as well.

Madeline Anderson [00:16:49]: So got a lot of exciting things in the works. I think my biggest focus right now is Girl Dad Network, building that out. So there's going to be some programs which are like courses depending on age level of the daughters. There's going to be monthly calls with me where it'll be a live call with me and like anyone in the community who wants to join. And I think that will be a really powerful piece because we'll be able to dive into things that are going on in in the relationship and how to amend things or how to prepare for, you know, certain stages of life. And I'll go over different topics as well and really excited for that piece. And then you've got the community side, being able to communicate with other fathers who are in similar situations or have daughters of the same age. There'll be events live and virtual.

Madeline Anderson [00:17:35]: Let's see. There's resources for the dads. I'm really excited about the gift guide actually because I'm building that with other daughters. So they can just go on there, add to cart, make it super easy for them. And it's all from the daughter's perspective once again. So they know, okay, if this is something that the daughters would want, then it's probably, very relevant. And then there's also resources for the daughter. So I'm building out, like, a mentorship program for the daughter, job board, and a college prep program as well.

Madeline Anderson [00:18:03]: So just wanted to be a one stop shop for the dads, everything girl dad related. How can they have a great relationship with their daughter? How can they set their daughter up for success? It's an online community. So it's, yeah, that's my main focus right now. Super excited about that. And then I would say the second part of it is speaking. I'm doing a lot more speaking events and been really, really loving that. I think my main focus is just getting out in front of as many dads as possible, whether that be through the book, through the speaking, through the community, and just being able to make an impact on fathers and daughters and future generations. So that's my passion.

Madeline Anderson [00:18:39]: And, yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing where it takes me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:41]: So if people are interested in finding out more about the network, about the book, where should they go?

Madeline Anderson [00:18:47]: Yeah. So for the network, girldadnetwork.com. And for the book, girl dad the book dot com. It's also on Amazon, but there's a link through the website as well if that's easier.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:57]: And we'll put links in the notes today for all of you to be able to find this, to be able to go out, grab the book, and be able to learn from the book, from the father and daughter relationships that are in the book. You're definitely not going to wanna miss this, and you're going to want to learn from this journey that not only that Madeleine has been on with her own dad, but also the journeys of all these fathers and daughters because it's really important to be able to take in all of this, like we talk about every week on the show, and be able to be open to learning, to be open to the journey, and know that you don't have to be a perfect dad. But there are things that you can do to be able to set up some building blocks that will help you to be the dad that you want to be. So I just want to say thank you, Madeleine, for making this a passion area for yourself, for working with fathers in so many different ways, for putting this out into the world. And I wish you all the best.

Madeline Anderson [00:19:48]: Thank you, Christopher. It's an honor to be here, and I appreciate everything that you're doing for all the dads out there as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:54]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

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Fatherhood is a multifaceted journey laden with challenges, joys, fears, and triumphs. On the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome a special duo—Kekoa Anderson and his daughter, Madeline Anderson author of Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads & Their Daughters. Their insightful conversation unveils the essence of father-daughter relationships, the intricacies of raising daughters, and the profound impact of intentional parenting.

The Initial Excitement and Overwhelming Responsibility

When asked about the first moment he realized he was going to be a father to a daughter, Kekoa Anderson recalled it as an overwhelmingly positive time. He highlighted the sudden surge of responsibility that came with the birth of his daughter. This initial moment of excitement quickly paved the way for a lifelong journey of learning and adaptation.

Kekoa described fatherhood as a process of evolving fears and challenges. From protecting an innocent little girl to dealing with the complexities of adolescence, each stage brought new hurdles. However, the underlying theme remained the same: the importance of being present and proactive in his daughters' lives.

Developing Unique Relationships

One of the key points discussed in the podcast was the necessity of building unique relationships with each child. Kekoa emphasized the importance of recognizing each daughter's individuality. He talked about creating bonds through shared interests like work and golf, which allowed him to engage with each daughter uniquely. Madeline fondly recounted her memories of being included in her father's work and the significant role golf played in their relationship.

Guiding Through Challenges and Building Confidence

Madeline also shared an insightful story that illustrated how her father's confidence in her abilities played a crucial role in shaping her self-esteem. At just 16, Kekoa entrusted her with attending a pre-proposal meeting, a task that seemed daunting at first but ultimately empowering. This experience, among many others, instilled in Madeline a sense of confidence and independence that she carries with her into adulthood.

Kekoa explained his approach to parenting as one that focuses on guiding his daughters to the answers rather than giving them directly. This method built their confidence and equipped them with problem-solving skills essential for their future endeavors.

Cherishing the Journey

One of the most compelling parts of the conversation was the mutual respect and admiration between Kekoa and Madeline. Madeline expressed her awe at her father's thoughtful and supportive nature. She highlighted how the realization of her unique father-daughter relationship dawned on her during college when she noticed the absence of such bonds in her peers' lives.

Kekoa, in turn, shared how reading Madeline's book "Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters" was a reflective experience for him, reminding him of the many special moments they shared and the lessons they both learned.

Advice for Fathers

The episode concluded with the "Fatherhood 5," where both guests shared their insights and advice. Madeline stressed the importance of showing up and understanding your daughter. Knowing her passions, love language, and personality can significantly enhance the father-daughter relationship. Kekoa added the wisdom of enjoying the journey and not rushing through the moments. He likened it to the gentle pace necessary in a game of golf, emphasizing the importance of taking your time and appreciating each step of the way.

The conversation with Kekoa and Madeline Anderson on the "Dads with Daughters" podcast encapsulates the essence of fatherhood. It's an ever-evolving journey that requires patience, understanding, and the willingness to grow alongside your children. Kekoa's stories and Madeline's reflections offer valuable lessons for all fathers striving to build strong, supportive, and empowering relationships with their daughters. As Dr. Christopher Lewis often reiterates, fatherhood is a journey for life—a journey best traveled with love, patience, and an open heart.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being on this journey with you. We have an opportunity every week to be able to to to work through this journey that you're on with your daughter. And every week, I love being able to be on this journey. You know, I've got 2 daughters myself. I have the opportunity to be able to learn and grow just like you are from the guests that we have on the show because it is a constant journey that we are all on. No matter if you have infants or if you have college age or if you have kids that are grown and flown out of the house and living their own life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]: No matter what it is, you're still gonna be growing as a father, And your relationship with your daughters are going to change over that time. So it's important. It's important to keep learning, important to stay open to learning. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have gone through this journey in different ways. We have dads, we have daughters, we have lots of people with lots of different resources. And this week we got 2 great guests with us. I am always excited when I get to have a father and a daughter on. And this week, we do have that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]: We have father Kekoa Anderson, and daughter, Madeline Anderson, with us today. And Madeline and I got introduced because Madeline recently wrote a book called Girl Dad, Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. And we'll talk a little bit about that and this. And I think we may even have this into a 2 parter. So we'll talk more in-depth about the book as well as what she learned. But today, we're gonna be talking a lot about their relationship and what led Madeleine to writing this book as well. So I'm really excited to have them on. Kikoa, Madeleine, thanks so much for being here today.

Kekoa Anderson [00:01:56]: Thank you very much.

Madeline Anderson [00:01:57]: Thank you for having us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back in time, Kikoa, and I'm gonna have you start here today. So I wanna go back to that first moment, that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter, what was going through your head?

Kekoa Anderson [00:02:11]: Exciting times years ago. So, you know, going back to the time in my life, it was a great time in life. Just having been married for a number of years and dating my wife for some time. You know, that was the height of everything where life was all in front of me. So when that came, that was just kind of the first step of having a child. And my wife and I both wanted to be surprised, so we didn't know the sex of Madeleine at the time. So it was, you know, one of those things. And that day was just kind of life changing when all of a sudden this responsibility little package popped out and it was like really overwhelming, extremely positive way.

Kekoa Anderson [00:02:47]: Reflecting back on that time was interest growing up and being a civil engineer and structural engineer and all the mechanics that are associated with that and testing everything, this was something where you could have a baby and walk out of the hospital and they just basically say, like, good luck. And there's no test, there's no form. It was an interesting time at that birth. So being ready for it, it's like, no, I was not ready for it. Nobody is. You just hear the stories from everybody. And so leaving that out, that was certainly a very exciting time. And then all of a sudden you realize, oh, I got a lot of work to do.

Kekoa Anderson [00:03:20]: What's my plan and what's my path forward?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:22]: You know, I talk to a lot of dads that talk about that moment when you're walking out of the hospital and they're they're especially if it's a first child, but also a your first daughter of this sense of heaviness that sets on you and the weight of being a father, but also of being a father to a daughter. And that there's some fear that goes along with that too. What would you say is was your biggest fear in raising a daughter?

Kekoa Anderson [00:03:45]: It's almost like the from the little age, the fragileness and safety issue and kind of being there for him and, and the responsibility of like, of taking care of that life at that little time. It was, you know, that was the frightening part where, you know, it wasn't necessarily frightening, but it was just something that kind of came up on top. And then as you go through that, then those things change from protecting a helpless innocent little girl to then seeing her interact with certain situations, everything from preschool to kindergarten, where they had little discuss and there's little issues, which are easy solves at that time to when, you know, you move up into the junior high, high school range, and, you know, they start dating different guys, you know, then it becomes there's another kind of sense of where's the manual for this? And how do I interact with them and protect them guide them at the same time, give them the freedom to learn and choose and not be overwhelming. So you know, that very dynamic and changing all the way through it. So So now that you're interviewing me with an older daughter having gone through that, maybe I didn't answer the specific area. But, you know, that's kind of the from the start to where we were today, maybe in the summary.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:50]: And, Madeline, when you hear that, what goes through

Madeline Anderson [00:04:52]: your head? I'm just sitting here in awe. I mean, I know we've talked so much about our relationship and I interviewed him throughout the whole girl dad process, but I feel like every time I hear how he thinks and what's going through his head, it just reminds me of how many thoughts there are, how thoughtful he is, and just how incredible of a dad he is. But I think, yeah, as far as the fears and everything, I'm sitting here kind of imagining myself going through that with my own kids one day as well. And recognizing that, yeah, there's not just one big fear. I think you answered that really well, dad. It's it really evolves throughout time and changes depending on the age and the time of life and what's kinda going around them at the time. So I'm sure a lot of dads out there can relate to that as well.

Kekoa Anderson [00:05:37]: Yeah. And it's it wasn't really so much fear. It was probably kind of the wrong word. It was just kind of a when I reflect back on it, it wasn't the number of fearful steps. It was just the situations came up. You weren't in fear waiting for it to happen. It just happened and you had to react. So it's like, how do you react when reactions are necessary?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:55]: And I'll say it. I mean, and fear doesn't end. There are going to be things in life even when your child is out of the house and they are living their own life, that you can still be fearful or you can still have concerns. And but you have to temper those concerns and understand that your child is an adult. And how do you deal with that now, Kikoa, as you see Certainly

Kekoa Anderson [00:06:17]: Certainly no fear of that, but there's, like, the worries and stuff. As I know, I feel very confident in her abilities to manage and take care of herself even from the safety issues to the work related elements to the financial side. Those, you know, at this level, it's nice. It's that's certainly a comfortable area where you can kinda boost control with that element instead of have to worry about it. But when challenges come up, certainly, you're there to go through those fears collectively and communicate them throughout. I still, as she's taken a trip to some area, I'm giving her extra fatherly advice on don't go to these parts and stay away from this or avoid that. And she probably doesn't wanna hear that. And she already knows anyway.

Kekoa Anderson [00:07:01]: But it's also it's good just to throw those things out there. So those little bullet points are in her head. Head. I always do that, maybe overdo that too, which maybe is a negative, but, you know, it's my role. I have to do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: You're always gonna be a dad. That does not stop. No matter what and how old your child is, you'll still be a father and you're still gonna be engaged in many different ways. Now, every parent and then child are able to develop unique relationships, and there's things that really define that for themselves. Especially if you have multiple kids, you have to have those unique relationships with multiple kids. But when you have that relationship with your daughter, you're going to be developing it in your own way. Madeleine, for you, as you think about the relationship that you have with your dad and how that's evolved over the years, what's been some of the favorite things that you and your dad share together that you've appreciated most as you have gone through this relationship?

Madeline Anderson [00:07:51]: Yeah. I would say to come to mind first. There's plenty of similarities and things that we bond over, but I would say the first one would be work. I was brought to my dad's work on the weekends when I was a kid, really enjoyed those moments. And he's always made me feel really included in his role and his job. And so I always understood when he was working, what he was doing, and it never felt like he was taking time away from me and my sisters. It felt like, oh, he's working. He's motivated.

Madeline Anderson [00:08:21]: He's someone who we should be inspired by. So I always looked up to him in that sense. And then as I grew, I would always call him for work advice or business advice and we love bouncing ideas off one another or brainstorming things for work. So it's something that could be dry, but it's actually really fun for both of us, I think. And we have really great conversations around work and drive and what's next and game planning and goal setting and all of those kinds of things. And then number 2 would be golf. And that was something that my dad introduced to me as a young girl by just taking me to the course with him when he played with his friends. And at the time I didn't play, I just would sit there and count the bunnies and watch the wildlife and just enjoy myself in the cart.

Madeline Anderson [00:09:06]: And finally, when I was old enough to maybe swing a club, I got a little snoopy set. It was a driver and a putter and one iron. And that was really fun for me because I felt included in the sport. And now, you know, he could take me with his friends and I could hit every now and then, and it made me feel like I was a part of the team. And then fast forward to high school, I tried out for the high school team and made that. And so I played throughout high school and he was always there guiding me. He would show up to my matches and had some fun little like one liners like roll it and hold it. And I'm forgetting some of the others, but there was some good life lessons.

Kekoa Anderson [00:09:39]: From another.

Madeline Anderson [00:09:40]: Yeah. Well, there's just some good life lessons in golf because it takes a lot of patience and we have to think about every stroke matters. Drive for show, putt for dough. That was another one you said. And it's just every stroke matters. You can't take what just happened in the past and apply it to the future. You have to take every single hit individually. And so having him there throughout that chapter was amazing.

Madeline Anderson [00:10:03]: And now as an adult, I love going home and playing golf with my dad or trying to find a new course to play out with him. So that's been a really fun bonding experience that we still get to enjoy as adults and both work and golf, I suppose, that started when I was a young girl.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:20]: And what about you, Kikoa? What were some of the things that you appreciated most in that building of the relationship and the things that you shared together?

Kekoa Anderson [00:10:27]: That really makes my life takes me to that extra level. Like, if I didn't have a daughter or didn't have that area, like, how my life would be different. And definitely with 3 daughters, there was a lot of different uniqueness with each one and what we did. But specifically, I think some of the successes that really made my life more expanding was to include her in those things. With the work like one she talked about, you know, we've done a lot of different projects together. We kind of create the projects to work together on. And, you know, at a little age for her visiting the office and coming in and coloring and drawing on plan sets, you know, as an engineer and like developing bridges, we had all kinds of big sheets of paper. So that was a canvas to colour on, which was fun.

Kekoa Anderson [00:11:10]: But at the same time, she got to kind of see, you know, what was all engaged. And there was a lot of neat things from the computers to the printers to even the old drafting elements that was kind of unique, you know, from the work and I think that helped guide her in some of the areas that she liked. But, you know, golf outside activity is an excellent sport to play with all 3 of my daughters and even my wife. It's just being out in nature and walking. Like I said, in the early age, it wasn't about her trying to outdrive her sister, that type of thing. It was like riding in the cart. You know, they wanted to drive the car, play with the bunnies, go to the lake and fish out golf balls or things more so. But then over time, it kind of grew.

Kekoa Anderson [00:11:49]: So that walk together was really, you have time for conversation, Your daughter actually beats you on poles. So then you have the competition that's, I might drive longer, but she can putt better. So all of a sudden there's these equalizers that so having the competition and you're both trying your hardest is unique, you know, compared to some other sports. So, you know, I think we all enjoyed that time together. But even just the trips and things that we took and having the conversations is really what to understand who everybody is and how they're different and being able to engage in that. You just gotta make time to do that. So the more we did it, the better. And when there's times when we got caught up with other things, it's kind of rebalancing yourself so that you have time for those activities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:32]: You know, one of the questions that I guess that I would ask as a father of multiple daughters, as I said, you have to build those unique relationships. How did you find yourself parenting, fathering each of your daughters in unique ways to be able to build those unique relationships with each of them, as they were all growing?

Kekoa Anderson [00:12:49]: Yeah. That's a tough one. I mean, that kind of first had a lot of activity. So it was like, here's kind of the spread. So as an engineer, I'm looking at economy of scale. So I want the golf clubs to pass down. So either one's gonna play golf. You know, the ski boots, it's like, hey, Malins went to Meredith, Meredith went to Ella.

Kekoa Anderson [00:13:04]: And they I kept having 3 girls was awesome from a standpoint of once you kind of have all those upfront costs on the first, you can spread it down. But I think what we did was we were kind of well rounded and did a lot of different activities. So whether it was surfing, skiing, golfing, tennis, soccer, softball, pickleball, there was enough where we did a lot of sports, weren't necessarily experts in 1, but enjoyed the time together. So everybody kind of fell into their place and got to be themselves, you know, through that portfolio of a lot of different activities. Instead, you know, some fathers, maybe it's all soft ball and they only do softball and others might just be soccer and there's club and hockey now. And, you know, so everything's so focused and those coaches want you just to be like all this one sport. And they're always pushing for that for their team and their success. But again, watching the 3, maybe we wanted to make sure that they could go on the ski trip together.

Kekoa Anderson [00:13:58]: And just because there was, you know, some club soccer team event that they would get in trouble for missing, it was kinda like we had to take that sacrifice so that our family could be together. So we didn't let, you know, one thing dominate, and we kept the portfolio open for the 3 to kinda fall into what worked

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:16]: best for them. Now, Madeleine, people can easily hear from you that you have been able you've been bothered in a good way in in regards to helping you to become a independent individual person that is out there living your life, doing good things, and really making a life for yourself ahead of you. And I'll say your parents had a say in that. They helped you in that journey, and you helped yourself in somewhat in that journey too. But I guess as you think back to the things that your father did, the things that he did to be able to help you to become the person that you are today, what were some of the things that really stand out to you that he did for you that really allowed for you to become the woman that you are today?

Madeline Anderson [00:14:58]: The influence is certainly there. I think there's a couple of stories that come to mind, but I really liked what he said about the multiple sports. And I think that kind of mentality of, like, you can do whatever, find your passions, you know, it wasn't forced upon us, but we ended up like, I really enjoyed soccer and golf and my little sister, the littlest one, she found her passion in art. And I think throughout all of us kind of finding our own lane, obviously both my parents, my dad specifically has been so supportive and once once we kind of define what that lane is, he's really good about offering support and advice and kind of guiding us through that journey. But I think another thing is just that belief in me and my sisters and our capabilities. And one story that comes to mind is when I was 16, I just got my driver's license and my dad woke me up and he was like, Madeline, I'm double booked for a meeting. I'm I'm gonna need you to fill in for me. I was like, What do you mean? And he said, it's a pre proposal meeting. It's no big deal. You're gonna go there. You've got this. You just need to meet with everyone, give them your business cards, But first you need to understand if they're a landscape architect or an engineer. If they're an engineer politely, and the conversation move on, go to the next person, hopefully they're a landscape architect, then you give them your business card. And so I went to this pre proposal meeting. I was the youngest person by probably 30 years and one of the only women.

Madeline Anderson [00:16:20]: And I had enough call, like probably too much confidence. And I just walked around and I was like, hi, would chat with somebody, found out they're a landscape architect, and then I would give them my business card. And then afterwards when I came home, even I was like, great job. Okay. Now follow-up with them. And I was like, what? So he taught me, he guided me through that whole process, but in doing so he gave me so much confidence in my abilities and put me in an uncomfortable situation, but told me that I was going to be great and could do it. And I think throughout that process, I learned how to be confident in my work and I'm sure that's just one example, but there's been so many throughout, especially high school and college where he's really just been there for me and, has guided me to feel confident about what I'm doing. So I I think that that's really translated into my adulthood and kind of how I do what I do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:09]: Thank you, Coop. Were there any other things that you intentionally tried to do with your daughters to be able to instill that in them, whether they accepted it or not?

Kekoa Anderson [00:17:19]: Well, definitely, yeah. I mean, the whole point of challenging them to build their confidence is not giving them the answer to the question, but a number of questions to get to the answer. And through that path of finding those was part of that success of building the confidence. I think that was one area. You know, always look at a way to bait them into thinking through the process. And for example, if you go into that pre proposal meeting, I'm an engineer. We do the bridges. So we were looking we didn't need to meet them.

Kekoa Anderson [00:17:47]: They're our competitors. We wanted to look at the ones that we could partner with. So her, you know, and it was low hanging fruit. If she messed up, it wasn't gonna change our outcome, but it was just a benefit. There wasn't the pressure of her having her having to fail. It was just giving her a chance to succeed. I mean, that step of kind of seeing if she could figure out a way to figure out who's the engineer, who's a landscape architect, because we wanted those landscape architects on our team. And if she messed up and actually got an engineer, we could've worked through that issue.

Kekoa Anderson [00:18:14]: So, again, it was setting them up with a challenge and let them get their hands dirty and figure it out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:19]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where we ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into typically, it's the dad, but today, we're gonna be doing both of you. And so first and foremost, Madeline, in one word, what is fatherhood?

Madeline Anderson [00:18:34]: I wanna say either guidance or support.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:36]: Kekoa.?

Kekoa Anderson [00:18:37]: Yeah. One word. That's a tough one. It's just kinda like it's life for me. It's like, hey. That's I'm a father. So that's a tough one. But it's definitely that walk.

Kekoa Anderson [00:18:45]: It makes everything fatherhood is who I am. It's awesome. Love it. I can't imagine not being it and not having that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:51]: Now, Madeleine, when was the time that you felt that your dad finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Madeline Anderson [00:18:57]: I feel like the the finally is throwing me off because I think I grew up just with the understanding that he's a great dad to daughters. I don't know that there was ever a moment that it hit me. Oh, well, you know what? Actually, I will say when I went to college, that's when I really realized how amazing my dad is because I realized how rare that relationship is. And I might've taken it for granted, to be honest. And when I realized that a lot of the women around me did not have great relationships with their dads and they couldn't believe how close me and my dad are, that really shook me. And so, yeah, that would be probably the moment that I realized he has always been a great dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:34]: and Kekoa?

Kekoa Anderson [00:19:35]: Yeah. I mean, I think the success of being a father is is it's never over. It's, like, endless. So it's you're only as good as your last success. But some of the things where you know, I saw, you know, pivotal points and like, certainly like graduation and leaving the house. And interesting enough, like Malin writing this book, it was like because a lot of people don't get to talk about it. So then when I first was reading the drafts of that, it was like, you know, goodness, obviously, the things that I had forgotten about a number of things that we had done when she was young and those type of things and really getting her perspective. So if, I mean, if daughters made a list of things that they really appreciated and the dads got to see that, that's awesome.

Kekoa Anderson [00:20:14]: And, you know, so that was kind of, you know, success by her writing that and me getting to reflect on it. You know, that was, you know, great job, Mandy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:23]: Thank you. And, Kikoa, as you think about fatherhood, who inspires you to be a better dad?

Kekoa Anderson [00:20:27]: Yeah. I mean, that's a tough one too. I I think that my style is I watch and listen a number of people, and whenever I see a good idea or lesson learned, I I take that for myself. So, you know, certainly my father and my wife's father, they were great examples and a lot of family friends. So I kinda used that whole portfolio and sold all the great ideas for myself and step myself up based on what I saw and learned from them. So, but definitely, you know, my own father and my father-in-law were a big inspiration throughout the whole time as they were active with Madeline and the other daughters as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:03]: Now, both of you have given a number of pieces of advice today, things that any dad could think about. As we finish up today, Madeline, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Madeline Anderson [00:21:15]: I would say show up for her. And I think the best way to do that is by knowing who she is. So take the time to really understand your daughter, her passions, the way that she thinks, maybe her love language, and then use that information to show up for her the way that she needs because that's gonna look different for every daughter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:33]: Thank you, Koa.

Kekoa Anderson [00:21:34]: Yeah. I think make the most of it and kind of, you get to reap all the benefits of it. I think that using golf is kind of one of the discussion items. There was a gentleman told me once, he said, you know, swing slow and accept the extra distance, which I always love that one, but that that's the same type of thing here with the advice for the dad. It's like there's a whole bunch of different moments and don't race to get to one end. Just enjoy the different parts of it and and kinda use that and take that time to engage.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:02]: Well, I truly appreciate both of you sharing this today. And and I know, Madeleine, we're gonna have you on another episode to talk more about the book. We didn't go go really into the book today. We're gonna tease that out for the next episode that we're going to have with you to be able to delve even deeper into this learning of talking to all of these different fathers and not only kind of taking the the experience that you had with your own dad, but but going even deeper than that and talking to many other fathers about their own experiences. So I really appreciate you both sharing your journey and for sharing that with other dads, and I wish you both the best.

Kekoa Anderson [00:22:40]: Thank you very much.

Madeline Anderson [00:22:41]: Thank you, Christopher. Really appreciate you having us on today.

Kekoa Anderson [00:22:44]: Indeed. Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:46]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:35]: We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.

Dads With Daughters is part of The Dads Podcast Network, powered by DadsSupportingDads.org

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Exploring Values-Driven Fatherhood

In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast we sat down with Dr. Jason Frishman of JourneyMen to delve into vital conversations surrounding fatherhood, societal equity, and the evolving role of dads in modern families. From building equitable homes to redefining traditional masculinity, this episode offered profound insights and practical advice for every father aiming to be more present and effective in their children's lives. Below, we unpack the most compelling segments from their conversation.

The Roots of Social Justice in Family Life

Dr. Jason Frishman shared how his upbringing, influenced by deeply rooted values of equality and social justice, shaped his perspectives on parenting. The lessons he learned from his grandparents and parents about fairness and understanding have become the foundation of how he raises his own children. Jason emphasized that fostering an equitable home environment isn't only a moral obligation; it's essential for nurturing well-rounded, empathetic individuals.

Concerns Over Societal Pressures

One of Jason's primary concerns lies in the societal pressures that could impact his children's values and character as they grow. He pointed out that while more men are spending time at home, the growth in fatherhood roles hasn't kept pace with these changes. This lag can lead to challenges as men navigate roles they may not be fully prepared for, often under the weight of traditional societal expectations.

Transitioning from Children to Fathers: A Professional and Personal Journey

Jason's professional journey has taken him from working with children to specializing in counseling men and fathers. This shift was driven by his passion for creating positive societal change and challenging the traditional narratives of masculinity. He introduced the concept of "foundational adventures," a counternarrative designed to redefine what it means to be a man and a father in today's world.

Embracing New Masculinity Narratives

Journeymen, the organization Jason is involved with, seeks to redefine masculinity and fatherhood. By promoting more inclusive partnerships at home, Journeymen encourages fathers to be active, engaged, and supportive partners, paving the way for healthier family dynamics. Jason's personal realization of embedded patriarchal thoughts highlighted the need for continuous growth and change, both individually and collectively.

Values Work as a Beacon for Personal Growth

A crucial part of Jason's message is the role of values in guiding personal growth. He stressed that challenges and conflicts shouldn't be seen as roadblocks but as opportunities for learning and development. For fathers seeking to make meaningful changes, Jason advises starting with a clear vision of what they want their household and relationships to look like, then identifying and overcoming the barriers that stand in their way.

The Universal Chaos of Parenting

Dr. Christopher Lewis underscored that parenting is a shared experience, often chaotic and busy but profoundly rewarding. Likening it to managing a boat full of "tiny screaming passengers," Dr. Lewis emphasized the importance of being actively involved in all aspects of children's lives—from spending quality time, imparting lessons, and preparing meals, to celebrating special moments. This hands-on approach is essential for building strong father-daughter relationships.

A Call to Action for Fathers

Both Dr. Lewis and Dr. Jason Frishman called on fathers to be intentional and present in their children's lives. Jason suggested that being a better father and partner involves becoming a stronger, more grounded individual. Overcoming obstacles requires a clear understanding of one's values and the dedication to addressing what hinders their achievement.

Intentional Parenting: Building Connections and Having Fun

Jason also highlighted the significance of intentionality in parenting. This involves using language consciously, allowing children to have a voice in their upbringing, and ensuring that parenting decisions align with core values. Moreover, he stressed the importance of having fun and enjoying time with family, as these moments create lasting bonds and cherished memories.

The Fatherhood Five: Embracing Connections and Small Gestures

In the 'Fatherhood Five' segment, Jason shared his personal reflections on fatherhood, describing it as fundamentally about connections. He prides himself on the close relationship his sons share and hopes they would describe him as silly, optimistic, and caring. Jason finds inspiration from his sons, wife, parents, and a close group of male friends, and he holds steadfast to the advice of consistently showing love through small, intentional actions.

Dr. Dr. Jason Frishman's insights on the Dads with Daughters podcast offer a compelling vision for modern fatherhood—one rooted in equity, intentionality, and joy. By embracing these principles, fathers can create nurturing environments that foster positive growth and deep connections with their children. To engage more with Jason's work or to access resources on effective fatherhood, visit the Journeymen website or reach out via the contact details provided in the podcast episode.

Dr. Jason Frishman was a part of Sarah Maconachie's book of stories about fathers called Working Dads and Balancing Acts.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Love being able to be on this journey with you, knowing that you know that I've got 2 daughters. I know that you have daughters. And it is a great opportunity for us to walk on this path together because the journey that I am on is not going to be the same journey that you're on, but we have similarities. There are things that we go through that are similar, and we can learn and grow from each other, and we can learn and grow from other fathers that are doing fatherhood in a little bit different way. We can push ourselves to be able to get out of our comfort zone. We can push ourselves to do something different, to be that engaged father, that more present father that we want to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: And that's why the show exists. The show exists so that every week, you have an opportunity to take what you're learning and put it into action, to be able to hear from others that have gone before you that are doing fatherhood in a little bit different way, that have different resources that are available to you and can help you in that journey that you're on. So thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being back every week. And I love being able to bring you different guests that are going to be able to help you in different ways. And this week, we got another great guest with us. Doctor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Jason Frischman is with us today. And Doctor. Frischman is a father of 2 sons, but he also works with men that are struggling to balance work and family and that are working to become more confident, connected, and fully alive. And we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about the journey that he's been on as a father, and I'm really looking forward to talking to him today. Jason, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:02:06]: Excellent. Thank you so much. I'm really glad and looking forward to our conversation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: Well, I'm excited to have you here today as well. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back. I know you've got some teenagers in the house right now, and I would love to turn the clock back. I said I did say you had sons. So I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a father to a son. What was going through your head?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:02:29]: It's a powerful and important question. We didn't find out that the baby was gonna be a son until he was born. And actually his birth story was a really hard one. And so because of everything that was going on, we were planning a home birth and it was all picture perfect and beautiful until it wasn't. And then we wound up in the emergency room at the hospital. And frankly, when I found out he was a boy, that I was having a son, it was the least of my concerns. And we were just so very happy that he was healthy, that my wife was healthy. He fortunately didn't need to spend time in the NICU.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:03:03]: And so the first and foremost was we have a healthy baby. And the next piece was once it hit that we you know, I had a son. And at that time in my life, working as a psychologist, I worked even then primarily with males, male identifying clients. And so I think when Micah was born, I think I was nonplussed in terms of gender, but I also was like, well, I'm kind of an expert in that, so maybe it'll be easier. Flash forward, it it hasn't been, but that's besides the plight. But the other piece is and this happened more when we had our second son because I think we knew we were only gonna have 2, but having 2 sons, we knew that we have a big responsibility in terms of raising good boys. That is something that I've spent my entire career helping others to do, and it sort of became our turn. And so I think both my wife and I have felt like we were meant to raise good men, and that's why we have 2 sons.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:03:57]: But we also feel in our risk this responsibility that boys and young men in this culture, they have a lot of work to do. And so we our values and who we are as both humans and parents and friends and etcetera, we wanted our children to be raised a little bit differently. Part of your introduction about, like, parents who do it a little differently. That was a big part of the intention that we have in every developmental stage of our kids' lives.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:23]: So talk to me about parenting a little differently. How do you define that, and what have you tried to do in your sons' lives to parent differently and to allow for them that that difference to be in their life in that regard?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:04:36]: Well, I think the first piece, which sounds very simple and yet has always been very challenging and something that we stay aware of is a lot of what we do, we want to be intentional. Intentionality and transparency are 2 of our common values as parents. And so I'll give a good example. Both my wife and I are trained as narrative therapists. And so in the narrative therapy world, language is very important. We believe that language and stories help derive and and drive reality. Right? And so the language that we use, even when our kids were pre verbal, was very intentional. So for example, at the time, when my first born son was was was born, we made the decision that I would continue working and seeing clients and my wife would stay home.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:05:19]: Now, on the one hand, that is a very typical traditional gender split, but because we are intentional about it, it changed the way we had to talk about what that was like. And so a great example is even when my son was preverbal as an infant, we never used the language of papa's going to work, and we corrected others when they said that. Right? Papa's going to the office. Right? Because saying that I'm going to work, what does that say about my wife who's staying home? Right? And so we were very intentional about the fact that, you know, she was doing more, you know, work if not, you know, as much if not more work than I am. And so we never wanted that language to to build a, a sort of a schema for for our kids where father goes to work, mama stays home. Right? And so intentionality around the language we use, intentionality around, the the products, the the things that we do with our kids, that was always very important. Another another good example is that, you know, I'm big at both of us are big in the food world. I I've been a cook and a chef and I've taught I've used it.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:06:36]: We've had small businesses with food and, you know, food values are very important to us. And so my wife who has been a a vegetarian since 14, she said, most vegetarians choose to be vegetarian. We're raised as omnivores or carnivores, and we choose to be vegetarian. We chose to raise our kids as vegetarian. And when they showed that they sort of understood the values and the ideas and the morals that we were sharing, then they could make their own choice. And right now, both of my kids have chosen to eat meat. My wife actually has started eating meat, and yet we're very intentional. Like at this point, we only eat meat if we know the farmer.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:07:16]: And in Vermont, we can do that. But most of the time when we go out, we said tell we we're vegetarian because we can't do it otherwise. So these are sort of mundane but important examples. But in terms of parenting differently, we're very intentional, transparent. We're aware of our language and the language we use, especially around gender with our kids. And then the other part is we're very, like I said, transparent. So my kids have always had a voice. Not that, you know, we're the adults and we're in charge, but my kids have always had a voice in in kind of what we do, how we do it.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:07:53]: They are able and and comfortable to give me feedback. I ask for it as the parent, as the father. And so sometimes I don't always like that, but it but but I but I always welcome the fact that they can tell me or share with me what I'm doing, how that makes them feel, and what it makes them think about. And it gives them a voice and agency and empowers them to grow into themselves in the boundaries that we as the parents have set.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:22]: So talk to me about that intention. And not every father, not every man has gotten to that point where they are doing the same thing or that they are trying or working to build a equitable home in regards to what is happening inside their own home. And we definitely don't see the equity being rewarded from a societal end. So personally, and it may go back to how you were raised, what made you personally decide as a man, as a father, as a husband, that that was important to you and that you wanted to instill that in your own children, and you wanted to break the the societal cycle, let's say, that is out there?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:09:10]: Wow. That one question we could spend, you know, a lot of time on, but two things. You hit the nail on the head in terms of it does start with my own upbringing and childhood. I would start even with my mother's parents, who've sadly recently both passed away. They were partners in the truest sense of the word. Even as a child, I remember that. The 2 of them sat down and did the taxes together. My grandmother, in a time when that didn't really happen, she was as aware of the money and the investments and that, you know, she was as aware of that, if not more than my grandfather.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:09:43]: And they were real partners. There's a great story is my grandfather drove me to college when I graduated high school. My parents were working. And I recently asked, I said, was grandma there? Did she go too? And my mom was like, of course, they did everything together. They were real partners. So that was the model I got from my grandparents. My parents, very, very similar. At one point, my mom went back to grad school and said, if y'all wanna eat, you better learn how to cook.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:10:07]: And my father learned how to cook. And so I always witnessed this sort of working towards equality and working towards an awareness of how we are at home and how the society at large is, and just the strength and courage it takes to do things differently. So that has always been a part of the way I look at the world. And then of course, you know, I I grew up trained as a psychologist. I try I got my master's and my doctorate and was always leaning. I used to joke that as a psychologist, I'm sort of a social worker in psychologist clothing. I have always been someone who looks towards social justice and equality and has been impacted by the inequality and the the sort of oppression and challenges that are led. And then, because of my working with boys and men for so many years, I'm a white man in this culture.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:10:56]: And having the background that I have, that has all become very prominent. And really, I find it to be one of the most vital issues in our culture today is the level that patriarchy has damaged both men, boys, and subsequently, every you know, families. And so it has become a real passion of mine to work for equality and just intentionality in the way that we use language and and work with gender.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:23]: So as you think about raising your sons, and as you talked about, you're raising your sons in a different way and challenging them and pushing them and encouraging them in different ways in the way that they are being raised. As you look at your biggest fear in raising them today? When I was young, my mom do you remember the 2? Fear in raising them today?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:11:44]: When I was young, my mom do you remember the TV show Family Ties? Yep. So when I was young and I was a very liberal, even more so than my parents, progressive kind of thinker, all these things, my mom used to tease me that I was gonna get an Alex P. Keaton furissa. And that's not my worry. I don't think that's gonna happen. But I do worry that the strength and presence of my kids is going to be battered at from a larger society. I mean, we have purposefully, like, you know, my kids have been in a bubble. Like we encourage childhood in a very solid way.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:12:18]: And we live in a rural town in a small state that is very white. And, you know, we've done our best to expose them to the world, and we talk politics. You know, we share things with them. But I guess my my my, one of my big fears or worries is that when they go out into the world, will they have enough of a solid foundation to stand on when they're hit with much of the mainstream ethos and pathos, you know, frankly. How will they hold up? Now, if the way they say it up to me is any indication, I think we'll be fine. But I do worry sometimes that the the sort of mainstream masculine way of being expectations and roles will beat them down a little bit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:58]: I appreciate you sharing that. Now I mentioned at the beginning that you work with men and that you are working with them, with individuals that are struggling to balance work and family and be connected and confident and helping them to, as I said, fully alive. Talk to me about how you got into this work and why you decided that working with men and creating journeymen was something that was a passion area and was something that you really wanted to focus on?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:13:31]: So I've been a therapist. I've been as a psychologist, I've been working for about 25 years, and almost exclusively with boys, men, and families. And when I started my career, I'm naively embarrassed to share that I started my career and said I'm always gonna work with kids because if you're an adult and you're a jerk, it's too late for you. Now that is really naive to say, you know, 25 years later, I'm embarrassed that that was my way of thinking. I was saying that to justify that I love working with kids, but I had my own kids and I really wanted to save my sort of child energy for my kids and the community that we have. So I started working with older men and eventually sort of landed on men and fathers as a way of working. And as that was developing, as I was then specializing in learning and doing a lot of research on masculine psychology and sociology, you know, all of these things. I also simultaneously was going through a change in the narratives that I work with, that I love.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:14:26]: So you may have heard of the hero's journey. It is a narrative that is sort of ubiquitous in our culture. It's all the the Pixar movies, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, all of these things. I love that narrative. I wrote my dissertation from the metaphor of that narrative, and it probably was 85 to 95% of all of the interventions, questions, and and work that I did was based around a really in-depth learning of the hero's journey. That said, about 15 years ago, something hit me. Part of narrative therapy is this idea of questioning taken for granted stories. So in professional honesty, I had to question my own favorite narrative, the hero's journey.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:15:04]: Long story short, I actually now feel that although I still love The Hero's Journey, it's actually not complete. And the fact that it is so omnipresent is actually quite damaging to boys and men. And the fact that our primary narrative models tell us that we either have to be epic or legendary in order to be worthy is really troubling and damaging to men who, most men who are going to work and coming home and you know, doing the dishes and things like that. And so the challenge or the the passion part of developing journeyman came from working more and more with men and fathers and finding how powerful that work was. It came from developing a counternarrative to the hero's journey, which I now call foundational adventures. And it came to this idea of like listening to men who, you know, may be super successful at work, but then they come home and they're lost. They come home and they're stuck. They come home and where's my place? There's a fact, a detail that I remember reading somewhere.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:16:01]: I won't use the exact numbers because I'll get it wrong, but there is a large amount of men who are largely spending more time at home than ever before, which we might think, hey. That's wonderful. And it is. But there's also hasn't been the equal amount of growth and development for father about what to do when they're at home. So that they're staying more at home. Some guys are getting it lucky and doing well and and being real present to their kids. But many men are staying at or or at home more with their kids, but coming at it with the same mindset mentality and social training that we've had for the last 100 years, which means that they're at home more and there's more opportunities to make trouble or mistakes or propagate this sort of mindset. And so the idea for me is that Journeymen was, how do we write new narratives for masculinity and fatherhood that involve and include a partnership at home and honor going and battling dragons or being off at work doing things and really developing deeper, more meaningful stories for men who just like everyone else on the planet, need emotional connections, strong deep depth of relationships, and love, frankly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:11]: And talk to me about over the years, you've been doing this journeyman work since 2019 when you started things. And I'm sure over the time and over working with men in this work that you learned a lot more about men, but also more about yourself. And talk to me about that. And what have been some of the biggest takeaways for yourself as a father, a husband, a man that you're putting now into place in your own life and some of the things that you're learning about the work that you're doing and some of the biggest struggles that men are struggling with?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:17:46]: The front of mind answer around learnings for me personally that I'm learning from the work and then bringing it home and then bring it back to the work deep in it is none of us are done. I think I'm pretty conscientious. I'm pretty aware. You know, all of these things, and I am. And yet recently, my wife and I had a huge argument about something that was very based in sort of sexism, very based in my unwillingness to be open to a partnership, ideal. And frankly, initially, when she said it that way, I was offended. Like, I wasn't open. I do this work every day.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:18:21]: And, you know, all of a sudden, I'm getting called out for something. And once I breathed, once I, like, let it sort of settle a little bit, it was really powerful for me to say, okay, you're right. Some of this patriarchal thought or dominance based culture, however we wanna talk about it, is so deeply embedded in all of us. And so for me, it's that there's always growth, potential, and possibility. And I've been using this statement a lot both at work and at home, but the magic and the treasure is in the muck. There's this narrative. There's this story in our culture that it'll be good when. As long as I get to blank or once I turn blank, you know, like, once I get to the end, it'll be better.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:19:00]: And I think there's such a problematic ideology there. And so a lot of it is in the muck, in the marshes, in the trouble. That's where the magic is. That's where the treasure is. And so one of the best learnings that came from that that I bring back to the work at Journeyman is we do a lot of values work. You know, let's learn what's important to us. And I do something called the values compass. It's an exercise where we pick 4 values that are can be visibly expressed, that I can see, right? Not this big ethereal, vague value, but something that is real can be specific.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:19:36]: And I have the guys pick 4 values that are inherently connected to the goal, the treasure that they're working on. And we put them in a compass. Well, what we've started to talk about in addition to the magic is in the muck is that our values are both the directional points and the steps on your path on your journey and the treasure. So if I'm following my values, number 1, I know the right direction and choices to make. But number 2, if I'm following my values, I'm feeling better. I'm doing better. I'm acting better. So I've actually achieved my goal on the way towards achieving my goal.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:20:14]: And so that you're always going up and down with that. It's a challenge and it's it's terribly difficult to live your values in the everyday. And so when we're doing it, let's recognize it and say, oh, I found a treasure. I've hit a goal. Now it's time to get back to it because I gotta keep walking. I'm in the muck. Right? And so it's nothing new. It's nothing some it's not an insight that I think I've developed.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:20:34]: I mean, Buddhists have lots of people have used it forever. I think there's a saying, no mud, no lotus. That's in a saying. Same kind of thing is that our challenges, our arguments, our conflicts are is always an opportunity for growth, and that's where the treasure is.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:47]: I love that. And I love that statement because I think you're completely right. I mean, there is a lot of muck that we go through in being fathers and being men. I guess one of the questions that I would have for you in the work that you're doing is there are going to be fathers that have not worked with you, but are thinking to themselves, you know what? There's some things that we that I could maybe be doing here based on what Jason's saying. What are some initial steps, some things that they could do right now today that could get them moving in at least the right direction? It may still mean that they wanna work with you down the road, but at least to have either an internal dialogue or have something that will allow for them to push themselves in the right direction in this regard.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:21:30]: I think the first step and and I have guys do this early on in the work anyway, and I I it's I think it's really important. There's there's 2 different things to become aware of. The first is what do we want? And I can blow that out. What kind of father do I wanna be? What kind of sons or daughters do I wanna raise? Not that I have much control over that, but in an ideal sense, what would I like to give to my kids? What kind of legacy do I wanna to share with them? What kind of values do I want to do I want to exist in my household? And really taking a look at what I would like that to be. How I would like do I want a household where after dinner, everybody's sitting on the same couch looking at their phones? Do I wanna have a household where everybody goes back to their rooms and does whatever, but we're not connected? Do I wanna have some mixture of that, but also, like, I don't know, we're playing board games at night or whatever, but, like, real specific, what do I want my household, my home to look like? And how do I want the relationships of the people who I purport to love the most? How do I want them to be? So I want first to ask men, how do you get clear on that? Do you want to spend your time tinkering in the garage or do you wanna be with the kids? Do you want what do you want? Do you want more intimacy with your wife? I had one guy who joined Journeyman said, I want my kids to be as comfortable holding my hand at 22 as they are at 12 and that they were at 2 and he said doesn't have to be literally holding my hands, but metaphorically, I want them to have that same level of comfort throughout their life. And that was his goal. That was his treasure. So I wanna encourage fathers to think about what are the ongoing relational goals that they have in their home, with their partner, with their kids, with themselves.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:23:15]: So that would be step 1. And step 2 would be, what's getting in the way? And it's time to be radically honest with yourselves, guys. Right? What is getting in the way? Let's just use the example of not wanting everyone to be on their own phones and to be dialoguing or spending time together or doing something. What's really getting in the way? Starting with you and the other adults in the house. If you look at yourself, a lot of journeymen, a lot of the work there, I always am very explicit. It's not a parenting group. We talk about parenting. We talk about that.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:23:43]: It's not about getting your kids to eat vegetables or go to bed on time, or learn to drive the car responsibly. It's men's work. It's about you being a stronger, more present, grounded man who can be in relationship, who can be in partnership. And so with that, you're gonna be a better father. You're gonna be a better partner. You're gonna be a better, more present to everything that's going on. So to answer your question more succinctly is get it clear with what you want at home and get clear about what you really give a shit about and what's getting in the way. What's getting in the way? What are the obstacles? Right? Are you too tired? Are you too stressed? Are you is your own pattern to isolate when things happen? Is your own pattern to get reactive? What is the thing that keeps you from those goals that you're looking for and name it.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:24:26]: Can't tell you how important that is. Once you name the obstacle, you have some control over it. And I've had clients who, once they identify it, really understand it and give it a name, I've had clients tell me like, oh my god, things are so much better. Just because they start to notice and they start to give something a name, you have some power. So those would be the 2 steps that I would suggest anyone can start to get a handle on before even getting into this work more deeply.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:48]: Well, I appreciate you sharing that because I think it is a journey and definitely something that will take time and effort, and you may have to get out of some bad practices or bad ruts that your family might have gotten into, especially over COVID or other aspects that change things. You know, you may have to make some adjustments within your home and really think deeply about where you want to be, where you are right now, as Jason already said. Now, Jason, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:25:22]: Before you start, can I add one thing? It'll be very quick. I am realizing I'm reflecting even on what I said, and it all sounds very heady and up here. More importantly or most importantly is, like, having some fun. I think so much of what men do is we go to work, we come home, we discipline, we but have fun with your family. Like, you love them. Have fun with them. And I just think that so much of the work, while it has this real heady, deep depth underground, a lot of the work, especially at Journeyman, is around fun. It's around metaphor.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:25:53]: It's around being silly. It's around all those things. And so I can't emphasize that enough is that men need to be having more fun. So anyway, the fatherhood 5 we can get into, but I didn't wanna not say that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:03]: In one word, what is fatherhood?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:05]: Connections.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:06]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:10]: I watch my 2 sons being friends. They're 3 and a half years apart and they're buddies. They really are. And they admit it. They like to admit it. They'll argue like other brothers, but they are close. And I watch them. My parents did the same thing, but I, my wife and I always said, we would love for our boys to be aligned together even more than they're aligned with us, and truly they are.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:31]: And so that that's a success. That's a big win for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:34]: If I were to talk to your sons, how would they describe you as a dad?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:38]: It depends on the day. I think they would say that I'm silly. I am annoyingly optimistic and positive. I love to cook and I love to take care of them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:49]: Who inspires you to be a better dad?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:51]: Well, they do for 1, for sure. My wife does. My own parents do. And I'm really fortunate, actually. I have a close group of male friends. And the depth of friendship that I with them is unusual. And I don't take it for granted, but all of them are either fathers or uncles and are good men. And so there's a mutual, like, love, respect, and inspiration in terms of doing better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:13]: You've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things for people to think about and to delve a little bit deeper into their own psyche and themselves to figure out kind of where they're at and where they wanna be. But as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:27:28]: Hug and kiss your kids and say the words I love you. I mean it, of course, but I think the small actions count. I think the piece of advice is really hug, kiss, and saying I love you can be lots of things, but the small intentional and consistent actions are more important than any grandiose gesture that you can do. We're working at a long term deep foundation. And so if you want your kids to be the kind of humans that you're hoping for and to have a relationship for life, then play the lifelong game. And so small, consistent, intentional actions are really the way to go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:06]: Now we talked about Journeyman. We talked about the work that you're doing. If people wanna find out more about you, about Journeymen, where's the best place for them to go?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:28:13]: The 2 places. First is I live on the website, so journeymenfoundation dotcom. The other piece is right now, I say sometimes we, but it's really me. So if you email jason@nourished connections.com, you'll get me directly. And I I really enjoy connecting with people who are either fathers or who love fathers and wanna be supportive. And so those are the 2 most direct ways, but I'm also on social media. I'm on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. And one thing that I would offer is, and I can send you a link afterwards, is I did put together this sort of it's the 10 fastest, most effective ways that fathers can connect with their kids.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:28:49]: And it's all about the small, consistent actions. I do every single one of them. So this isn't just something I write about. I'm also the president. And so I can send the link to that and people are more than welcome to as soon as you when you go to that link, you can download that copy. Every single one on there, I think I timed it once. If you did all 10, I think there's a bonus 11. But if you did all 10, it's less than 12 minutes every day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:11]: I love it, and we'll definitely add it to the notes today and add it in so everyone can take 10 minutes to reconnect and to better connect with your kids. Jason, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:29:27]: Oh, thank you so much. This has been great. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:29]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.

Get out and be the world to them. Them. Be the best dad you can be.

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A Heartfelt Conversation

In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome Gerard Gousman to explore the unique experiences and challenges he faces as a father of four sons. Gerard shares his heartfelt insights and practical advice, making this episode a must-listen for every dad striving to be the best parent they can be. Let's dive into the critical themes and topics discussed during their engaging conversation.

Reflecting on the Initial Stages of Fatherhood

Gerard Gousman opens up about his initial reactions to becoming a father. The mix of excitement, fear, and overwhelming responsibility is something many new dads can resonate with. "It's like stepping into a world where you have no previous experience," says Gerard, reflecting on the early days of fatherhood. As he navigated through sleepless nights and constant second-guessing, Gerard began to understand the profound and rewarding nature of being a dad.

The Dynamics of Parenting at Different Stages

Parenting isn't a 'one size fits all' journey, and Gerard underscores this by discussing the differences in parenting toddlers, preteens, and teenagers. He highlights the importance of flexibility and adaptation, learning to adjust his parenting style to each child's unique needs and communication preferences. By doing so, Gerard has been able to maintain close relationships with his kids, fostering an environment where they feel safe and understood.

Embracing Technology and Remote Living

With the shift to remote work and education, Gerard speaks on the challenges and opportunities this new dynamic brings. Living in a more remote setting has highlighted the importance of balancing screen time with physical activity and real-world interactions. Gerard emphasizes finding creative solutions to keep his children engaged and active, such as outdoor adventures and tech-free family time.

The Pressures and Expectations of Fatherhood

One of the most relatable aspects of Gerard's story is his fear of not meeting the high standards and expectations of modern fatherhood. "There's always this lingering worry—am I doing enough?" Gerard admits candidly. Over time, he learned that striving for perfection isn't sustainable. Instead, he focuses on being present and consistent, realizing that it's the simple, everyday moments that matter most.

Creating Wins and Building a Cool Dad Reputation

A shining light in Gerard's journey is his 'cool dad' win at the trampoline park. Taking his 7-year-old and a friend out for some jumping fun led to high praise from the friend, labeling Gerard as the "coolest dad at school." This moment encapsulates the joy of being an involved parent and solidifies Gerard's belief in the importance of participating in his children's interests.

Finding Inspiration and Support

Gerard draws inspiration from his children's growth and positivity and from other supportive dads who share their journeys. He emphasizes the importance of finding a community, whether through local groups or online platforms. These connections offer a sense of belonging and a wealth of shared knowledge, making the challenges of fatherhood feel less isolating.

Advice for New Dads: Stay Happy and True to Yourself

To new fathers, Gerard offers sage advice: "Don't lose yourself after becoming a father. Your happiness is crucial for your family's well-being." He encourages dads to pursue their interests and maintain their personal happiness, which in turn creates a more joyful and balanced family environment.

Transitioning Careers for Family

Gerard's decision to transition from a high-pressure career in the event management and music industry to being a stay-at-home dad speaks volumes about his commitment to his family. He discusses the fear of missing out (FOMO) and the challenges of shifting focus from an active social lifestyle to home life. Parenthood required him to reevaluate his priorities and embrace a new, fulfilling role.

Navigating Family Dynamics and Individual Needs

Understanding that each child is unique, Gerard keeps notes on his children's favorite things to use as points of connection when other communication methods fail. This personalized approach has helped him navigate tough conversations and strengthen his bond with each child.

Advocating for At-Home Dads

Gerard has become a vocal advocate for at-home dads, participating in a New York Times article to challenge stereotypes. His efforts have been met with positive responses from friends and other fathers, underscoring the value of representation and community.

The Role of Community in Fatherhood

Finding a supportive Fatherhood community, like the National At Home Dad Network and local dad groups, has been instrumental in Gerard's journey. He emphasizes the importance of reaching out and connecting with others who understand and appreciate the unique challenges and rewards of fatherhood.

The Simple Joys of Fatherhood For Gerard, fatherhood in one word is "amazing." It's the little victories, the shared laughs, and the opportunity to watch his children grow that make the journey so rewarding. As he continues to adapt and learn, Gerard remains a beacon of positivity and strength for his family.

In summary, Gerard Gousman's journey is a powerful reminder that fatherhood, with all its ups and downs, is an ever-evolving adventure. His insights and experiences provide invaluable lessons for dads at any stage, encouraging them to embrace the journey with an open heart and a flexible mindset.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dance with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. You know, every week, I love being able to sit down and talk with you, to work with you, to help you on this journey that you're on. Each one of us is on a unique journey. And you have daughters, I have daughters, but we learn from each other. We learn from others. And the more that we're willing to step out and hear what others have to say, step out and take in that learning, take in what others have to say, the more that you're going to be able to be that engaged dad, and that father that you want to be to your children. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different perspectives and, and different from different walks of life that have gone through either fatherhood in a different way have different resources that they can share. And I love being able to do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: Because, as I said, each one of us is on a unique journey, but we can learn from each other and we can help each other along the way. This week, we got another great guest with us. Gerard Guzman is with us today. Gerard is a father of 4 sons. And you might be saying, well, this is the dads with daughters podcast. Why are we having a father of sons here? Well, there's a reason and we're gonna be talking about that. Gerard went through his own journey as a working dad that made some choices, made some choices to be that active, engaged dad that he wanted to be and may have made some choices that you might have made or might not have made. We're gonna talk about that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]: And I'm really excited to have him here, be able to share his story, learn a little bit more about him. Gerard, thanks so much for being here today.

Gerard Gousman [00:01:53]: Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:54]: It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to have you on and being able to learn more about you. 1st and foremost, I love being able to start the podcast with the opportunity to go back in time, get in the in that proverbial time machine. I want to go all the way back. I know you've got kids that range from 22 months all the way to 22 years. So I want to go back maybe 23 years, I want to go back to that first moment that you you found out that you were going to be a father. What was going through your head?

Gerard Gousman [00:02:19]: For the first time, I was young. I was in college scared, excited, hopeful. It was there from was the experience of not knowing what was ahead of me, but, like, alright. Trying to figure out, alright. How can how do I do this? How do I be a dad? And I look at the examples of examples around me and okay. To figure out how long if I take a little piece of pieces of this from the different dads I know and trying to grab what I thought was right. And, of course, none of us do it right. It's from the start. So got that knocked myself off, knocked my dust myself off, and got back up and keep trying it again and again until some point in the next couple weeks. I think I may get it right.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:55]: I'll have to check back with you in that few weeks and see if you actually hit that point because I don't know if any of us do it right all the time. And we definitely stumble, fall, pick ourselves back up, as you said. And our kids are gonna be the first ones to point out when we make mistakes. So that's definitely the case. Now, as I said, you've got kids that range from 22 years to 22 months. And with each and every child, you have to parent in a little bit different way. And you've learned things along the way, but you've got a very young child and a child that's potentially out of the nest in regards to grown, flown, starting his adult life now. So talk to me about what you've learned along the way and how you're parenting your 22 month old now differently than you may have parented your 22 year old.

Gerard Gousman [00:03:44]: Yeah. It's definitely a much different world now, physical world and just my immediate world where I'm coming from then being young and my experience, all things that come with being a young adult in a big city and trying to do that. And it was also at the time of really starting. I was in music and college and working in marketing. Just Just starting out working in marketing in events and just trying to navigate and figure out what I was gonna be and what I was gonna do. And some of the experiences I have always been of the mind is bring trying to do as much as you can to marry marry my worlds together. I was trying to bring the kids out into the events and never use that having kids excuse to not be able to do something that you probably could do with them. That's something I've always tried to maintain with of showing my kids as much of the world and as many different experiences as I can.

Gerard Gousman [00:04:39]: And still to this day doing that, but a bit differently, plus the mix of technology, and we're a little more remote than we were then. And starting out, I was with in Chicago, it's so close to a lot of family. But now remote here in the on the West Coast, and most of my family is still Midwest and back east. So it's completely different raising the family, raising kids away from the family, and not having a strong of a communal family support.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:06]: Now you mentioned at the beginning when you first had your first child, you were definitely a little bit scared. And I think there's some fear that goes along with every father, Whether you have daughters, whether you have sons, in some aspect, when you bring a new child into the world, there's always some fear. What was your biggest fear in being a father?

Gerard Gousman [00:05:22]: A lot. I think of not being able to hold up to the standards that I had, I guess, as a kid, like, what the ideal dad was. Like, when I grow up, when I have kids, I'm never gonna yell, and I'm gonna always be there, and I'm always gonna be smart, and I'm gonna trust my kids and know all the things that you wanted as a child from your parents. I'm like, I'm gonna be that parent. Like, how do I hold up to be that parent that I wanted as a kid? And then I realized, like, that's not realistic. You you quickly learn, like, oh, that's why they were always tired. That's why they were always yelling. Like, in retrospect, that was very dangerous. It's finding that out that I could try to bring in those parts of me that I wanted to mold and have my parenting style being able to live up to that standard.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:13]: Now with the fact that your children are at different points, different ages, different experience levels, and you look at that fear now in regard to what you've gone through. Is the fear that you have as a father different for your 22 month old in the life that he will have versus the fear that you have now for your adult son?

Gerard Gousman [00:06:35]: Think of are you thinking in in time that learn to be a lot more flexible and not take not take the losses as hard. And sometimes, like, I take the stumbles as much. I mean, there's simply times where you do everything you can and things don't work out, but you say, alright. Didn't work out this time. How do I learn from this experience and use it to parent better down the road? So going back to things I thought of with now with my now 7 year old being the 1st grader and thinking back to when my oldest was in that age and trying not to put as much pressure, like, that pressure to be the best student and be the nicest kid and be perfect in public and be respectful. Be always be as respectful as possible and and to try to keep them as polished they could. And now being a point of letting them breathe and kinda learn their own way and instilling those the same principles in them, but not instilling the pressure as much. I wanna know that, yeah, it's okay to take those missteps and but being able to be open and and be able to come back to us as parents and know that we have that support level of support that I don't think I instilled in my kids, in my older kids when they were younger.

Gerard Gousman [00:07:52]: It's kinda that these are your benchmarks. You gotta hit them. You gotta hit them. And now it's like, alright. If you don't, that's okay. We can find a way to make up the gap.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:00]: And kinda chuckling to myself because I think as you go through life as a parent, and I I could just imagine your oldest son saying to you, you were so much harder on me and you kept me to a different standard than than you're holding to my younger siblings. And you do. You know, it's not that you're favoring one than another, but you learn. And as you said, you become more laid back, I believe. The more fathers that I talk to, the more kids that they have, I think the more laid back they do become.

Gerard Gousman [00:08:28]: Yeah. And then the thing of knowing how like, in the beginning, you don't know what the outcome or outcomes be, but outcomes will be. But as it goes on, you kinda you understand the patterns. You see the algorithm of life. And, like, okay. I know where before I had to make the 6 or 7 steps. I know that 2 or 3 of those steps weren't really important and kinda slowed things up. So now being able to have been able to more fine tune things in real time and just being more aware of those benchmarks that we like I said before about trying to hit those and not it's not always the most important thing. Sometimes the trying is enough.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:03]: Now I know that or you, as you said, you were a employee for many years, you worked out in the world, doing event management, Salt N Pepper, Cat Power. I mean, lots of artists that were out there. You were traveling a lot, and at some point, you made a decision. You made a decision that some changes need to be had, and you needed to be closer to home. You needed to be able to be more a part of the family. Talk to me about that internal conversation you had to have, the conversation you had to have with your wife as well to think about this in a different scenario that made you make some choices that were going to substantially change your life and change your family's life?

Gerard Gousman [00:09:50]: Yeah. Well, I think into that point, it was sitting around the birth of my 3rd, and the 2nd one's went through, and it was kinda wandering in between, I guess, seasons. I guess the way the event seasons go, it's kinda like the tail end and starting I don't know. I wanted to be there and support my wife as much as I could that and doing the beginning of the maternity leave and school being able to really be a part of the moments, all of the pre visits and all that stuff and really having the excitement of the pregnancy. That's not that I missed out by. My other 2 was just, like, being out on the road and traveling and not being able to be there for the earliest moments. And once it got to that point of, like, seeing it, I knew I could be there. And one of the things made it a lot easier is is the decision to be able to support my wife in her career.

Gerard Gousman [00:10:38]: And she she was on the upper trajectory. And Shrunkar Bennett really got into a point where she was really making strides and wanted to be able to support her in that and give that example for the kids as well. Like, I know I could do this and with cards on the table and look to see what our strengths were. It's like, yeah. I I can do this and give you that so you need to go back and focus on your career and or can I can hold it down here and still be able to do things that I needed to do for myself? And when it I think I've built a strong relationship with my wife, and we are to the point that we are very open communicators in regards to what our immediate needs are. Like, we tend to check-in with each other, and where it may not be something long gone or drawn out, we know when something's not right and, like, always we try to stay on the same page much as possible. And I think that helped make the transition a lot easier, just knowing that I can instill a system, and we have our routines in the house, and it makes us it could be able to flow. And we are able to still have a lot of the things that we loved about life before.

Gerard Gousman [00:11:41]: Like, we're avid campers, and we like to travel. And being able to do that stuff with the kids while they're young, I think, has been great for me. Like, definitely a lot of those day to day, like, month to month, the growing things, like, being able to notice little height differences. Like, that arm's longer than it was a few weeks ago. And having full conversations with the baby, and actually, like, because I'm with because I'm with him, I understand what he's saying. And so you're having those things that priceless and suits so valuable, and, like, I know you never get that time. It's really knowing the value of the time. It's been more valuable than however much I would have made out there in the field.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:21]: So talk to me a little bit about that transition, that transition from work at work outside of the house, traveling, working in the industry, working with artists, you know, that high pressure, high paced life to transitioning to home and being that stay at home dad where you're running the household, keeping things running while your wife is working on her career. What was the hardest part for you in making that transition? And what were some of the things that you had to fundamentally change to be able to help you to make that transition?

Gerard Gousman [00:12:52]: Honestly, coming from for being, very active and constantly out, going out 3, 4 nights a week even when I'm not wasn't working or I wasn't traveling. Still going home and being active in my local art and music event scene. There's no stand abreast. You gotta keep your faces in a place to be active. You're not around. You're not in. Right? So it's coming from making just that desire and having that FOMO was the big thing of man, I'm missing out on a lot of stuff, all those opportunities. And it's it's like the music festivals and concerts and stuff.

Gerard Gousman [00:13:26]: It's that high energy. Always go, never knowing exactly what's gonna be next, which some days, that's what it's like around here. And, see, see, making that transition was not as hard as I thought it would be at first using a lot of the things that I learned on the day to day managing the field, the schedules, and having those routines, dealing with wrangling wild and unruly staff and artists. I'm like, it's pretty much what I'm doing here, keeping everything afloat. It's that mode of getting into not having that FOMO and finding what elements of that former life can I bring in? I guess the biggest thing is just that missing out on the activity of being around the my peers. I think that was the hardest part of the disconnect of the transition of not being having that peer relationship. As much as I could, we could go out and take kids to do stuff, but kinda hard to have that feel. Getting over that and finding supplements and finding community and that were more in tune with that part of my lifestyle.

Gerard Gousman [00:14:30]: It has been good and just working with the National At Home Dad Network, and I that was a godsend for me, being able to find find the group. And, like, man, there's a whole community of dads out there. It kinda opened me up to me to see, like, yeah. I'm not as isolated in this as I believe I was in the beginning. That's that made things so much easier, designing was really being able to know that I could go out and find the communities if I look for them. And then once I found a couple of places to be able to places to commiserate or places to share what, for me, it would have been a big win. Like, hey. Today today was a no blowout day.

Gerard Gousman [00:15:09]: First no blowout day. That's a big deal. My all working, partying event friends were like, no. That's they don't care about them. Like, so finding people that what are my constituted a big win in my current life, finding a community that understood those moments.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:25]: So talk to me about community because you mentioned that you got connected at the national level with the At Home Dad Network and how we've had some past guests from the At Home Debt Network on the show. Talk to me about finding that community, what you had to do to find that community, not only nationally through the work that you're doing on the board of the At Home Dad Network now, but but even locally of being able to find those peers or those other dads that were going through similar things that you could start to have a new community for yourself. What did you have to do to be able to initially find that community and then build, hone, and grow that community for yourself?

Gerard Gousman [00:16:04]: Kinda funny. I use some of the things that I would use initially in, like, having events and finding the different event communities and nightlife sectors. They're just going going through and mining through Facebook and different like Facebook and Tumblr and Reddit and looking for those communities and realizing that there are thriving online communities of engaged, active fathers and really putting myself out there and, like, hey, this is what I'm looking for. This is this is what I'm struggling with. These are the problems I'm having. Anybody ever experienced this? And and then finding there's 100 guys like, yeah. Last week, that was me. Exactly that.

Gerard Gousman [00:16:42]: Last week. We do that both finding that online community, but finding that those those guys were here in my state, in in my in town and going in, like, alright. Putting myself out there. Hey, you guys. Let's get together. Let's meet. Let's go out and do some media at the park or the toddler gym or we should get out and have a beer or something. And when I took it on myself to really throw myself into it, like, if I don't put myself out there and find it, it's not going it's not just gonna come to and knowing that I was struggling with that disconnect, with that FOMO, just like and having that having that backup. This is something that's not ideas off of with other dads. Once I found myself really being able to throw myself into it and reach out to other dads that I knew, like, a and ask them, like, hey. Are you suffering with the same stuff that I have? And, like, no. No. I'm good. Well, actually, yeah. I didn't wanna say anything, but, yeah, I feel that too in, like, of having friends that, like, man, you know what? Let me check on some of my mom check on my dad friends. And, like, I know how I'm feeling. Let me check up on them. And then once doing that, like, seeing it there like, yeah, a lot of us were having that same thing, but, like, not feeling that we had anybody to talk to. So I might try to invite them into different spaces or just always make make myself available to be a space for my immediate community of dads. Then I've gone on to, like, join my local PTA and try being more active in my kids' school and work with some of the dads there to have more of the fathers on campus and doing doing things and more active in the events. And that has helped. Definitely had comments from other dads in the school.

Gerard Gousman [00:18:21]: And it's great to see you always there. Like, I was nervous about going because it's always just the moms, but seeing you in in it and active, like, made me feel okay. Alright? There'll at least be somebody another dad there to talk to. And and every time now I go out, go to pick up the kids, like, hey, man. I see some of the dads, like, hey, we doing this or something. Just checking in on how you doing. Like, not how you doing, but how are you? And checking in on the other day, that's when I see them at pick up and inviting them into the spaces in school and and know, like, hey, it's not a spady thing. They're not gonna load up on you.

Gerard Gousman [00:18:48]: Be more active. You got to support. There's other guys here that get it. And we're starting to start to have more of the dads in our school community be more active and stepping up and taking a lead on things. So that's been great to see.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:05]: Yeah. It's so exciting to to hear that you're finding that community. I think that whether you're working or not, it's so important to find a community that you connect with and don't go through fatherhood feeling like you have to do everything by yourself because so many times men step into fatherhood thinking, I've got to know everything. I've got to be that expert. I've got to be the man per se. And you don't you don't have to be the man. You can be a man and know that there are so many other people right around your block or in your apartment complex. No matter where you live that are going through similar things, you just have to reach out and you have to talk to them and just kinda, Gerard, like you said, just say, how are you and truly be willing to ask the question and see and understand and connect on that deeper level.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:59]: So, Gerard, one of the things that I guess that I would ask is now you've got kids at different ages. They're involved in so many different things. The personalities are probably very different from one another. How do you keep that connection and build those unique relationships with each of your kids?

Gerard Gousman [00:20:17]: That part definitely difficult, especially once the teenage years and they grow and get their independence, and they construct their own communities. I think I always tap in and let them know I relate to what's going on. I try to I'll let them know, like, I'm always available to talk. Especially for the older kids, like, we don't talk as much and maybe a like my 16 year old.

Gerard Gousman [00:20:42]: Are you good? I'm cool. Alright. Tell me about your day. What's we gonna tell me about your week. Alright. Anything new? No. And I'm like, alright. So I'll check-in next month. They're going through and make it a point of having to go on to the, like, all the the school forums and following the the different school Facebook groups and different stuff. Like, I'm like, you got a key from the mayor? Why didn't you tell anybody? Like, it wasn't a big deal. What? The mayor came to send me a school and no. You didn't you didn't wanna tell anybody that that was happening. Like, that isn't a big deal. Well, at least put on a nice shirt that day. So things like that. Like, wanting to be open when I can. I know, not the hippest. They're definitely difficult across but they're totally different generations, I guess. If you ask them, they're totally different generations. What worked with the oldest, I mean, I know I could even work with the 16 year old and between the 16 and the 17 year old.

Gerard Gousman [00:21:36]: The way I could communicate and relate with 1 to a totally different approach to the other. And so I'm going through and finding those personality points and being able to figure out, adjust, and tweak my parenting style for each of them. Just realizing that, alright, the way I can talk to one isn't the same as other. Like, one, I can go through and ask something, and they'll just ramble on and tell you all the detail. Another one, it puts pulling teeth. You're asking it's 50 questions. It's 50 questions together. How was your day? Just to get to that point.

Gerard Gousman [00:22:08]: And so finding a way that it each communicates and how to research. I wanna watch videos and read articles and Internet snooping and going on to TikTok and Instagram and going through the trends, like, alright. What did I hear them mention? They're in, like, alright. And just trying to stay abreast of what's what's hip in their different areas. Like, alright. What's hip for the in this age group? What's hip in this age group? And how just using those little points I can to as a point of relation to open them up because I may ask a bunch of questions, but then I may mention something about this one artist. And that may be the thing that unlocks that that window that was shut in with blinds and locked and curtains across it. Now our sun's coming right on in now.

Gerard Gousman [00:22:54]: It's like, oh, yeah.

Gerard Gousman [00:22:55]: That's my favorite song. I was thinking about that. You know what? I was talking to my friends today. You know, we were thinking about going to Greece. I'm like, oh, I

Gerard Gousman [00:23:01]: asked you, had you heard this song? All the information I've been trying to get out of you for a month has just come down because I asked you, had you heard this new song? So I'm interested in finding things like that, those little points of connection where I can. And I keep a little Google Keep note list of the things like favorite food and drink orders, and stuff like that. They mentioned this artist one time. Make sure I remember on that. And just jotting down little things for each kid that those bigger points of relation that I can come back to when that normal communication isn't working.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:33]: So this whole story of what we've been talking about was recently put out in front of the world through a New York Times article. And talk to me about that, and why you chose to be a part of that article, why you wanted your story out there, but also what has come from that story being shared? And what are you hearing not only from people around you, but people broader than in your local community.

Gerard Gousman [00:24:02]: Yeah. So, so that was a great opportunity. I was definitely happy to be included. The writer, Kelly Coyne, reached out to me, and we had a great discussion about some of the some of this about my experiences as

Gerard Gousman [00:24:15]: a father and just in the changing styles of fatherhood, and wanted to work with the org with that Home Dad Network. That's been one of our mission. Being able to help update that face of parenthood and kinda change the popular conception of at home dads. I wanted to have them be included because it's been an interesting journey for me and having more dads be open about the experience. And we we do we have a lot of that. I definitely have gotten that mister mom comment from strangers and friends alike as both an insult and as a compliment from it being termed as something endearing and something as a joke. And knowing that we'd be able to put to face a fatherhood that can be active in being at home and regularly engage fathers, not just done one way. There's not just one way to do that.

Gerard Gousman [00:25:10]: So that's something I wanted to, I guess, give my perspective on, of the way that it works for us versus the way that some other dads mentioned the way that they came to this point of being at home dad and being a primary caregiver. So it was honor to be able to share that perspective. I think having some of the response I've gotten, really great all around, friends, family. But having other guys that I know that were dads reach out, I think that's been the best part of seeing, like, man, that's cool. Like, I really really wish I could do that. Like, I wanna do that, but I don't think I have it in me to be able to teach my kids on the day of having the patience or having a structure and being able to be open with them. It's like, hey. It's it's not all every day is not great.

Gerard Gousman [00:25:56]: It's not all wins, but it's all positive. It's all necessary. Like, I am always happy at the end result. Right? And once I you have to have those points hitting those walls and having the end result, like, at the end of day, like, well, it's more worse circumstances we could be in and being happy that I am able to have the opportunity. Having the privilege to be able to be in a position that I can be here and make these mistakes and learn with my family and help my family grow. I guess, I haven't had it's negative. I did have, but I reached out for an interview, and it was kinda the the other side of it, they want it, bro. What's the negative response you've gotten? Like, there hasn't isn't any.

Gerard Gousman [00:26:35]: Like, what was the bad part? It's not. It's been great as far as the experience. Of course, there's always small things, family things that happen, but it has been a majorly positive experience because that's what I make it. And it's like if in being able to relate that to other fathers. The experience is gonna be what you make. It's not gonna be easy. It's not gonna be as hard as you think it will be either. It definitely will be the days where you gotta sit in the emergency room after you but you get up early and think you're gonna go to bed early, and it's like next thing, you know, you're up till 3 AM, and you gotta get up at 7 AM the next day.

Gerard Gousman [00:27:09]: It's like but you keep going, and you find the time to make your peace. And that's the biggest thing that has made this a positive and more eased experience for me, is the focus that my wife and I put on having our home be a place of peace. And I instillment with the kids. Like, I yell just like most dads, I'm sure, yell. Then circling back on that, circling back. Alright. Oh, bring that back. That's why I yelled.

Gerard Gousman [00:27:38]: We need to stop yelling as a collective and learning how to quiet yell. This is something I've been working on with the baby, this quiet yelling with him. Like, you can be you can be mad. You can scream, but don't scream at me. I am so angry right now. Don't do that. Like, see? It still works. He reads the facial.

Gerard Gousman [00:27:58]: I'm like, he can read the facial expressions. Okay. Okay.

Gerard Gousman [00:28:02]: And so sometimes that he's gonna

Gerard Gousman [00:28:04]: go into it, and I'm learning, seeing that he is learning that as well, He's screaming, and then he was I'm like, you're getting it. Okay? So I think I'm a you know, things of being able to share the learnings with so much the with the broader community of dads and parents. But just having that small community of dads that I've been friends with forever coming to me and be like, you know what? I've been struggling. I didn't think I could do this. But, you know, I I read your piece and seen your piece like, man, it's thank you. Thank you for putting on that face for us and know that it is hard and that we can do this. And I think that's been the best response for me was having dads that that I knew come to me and, like, that's it right there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:48]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Okay. In one word, what is fatherhood?

Gerard Gousman [00:28:57]: Yes. What indeed? It's it is a constant what. Amazing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:03]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father?

Gerard Gousman [00:29:07]: Sometime between 3 and 3:15. Last week, I figured a point to kinda catalog my wins so that on those bad days, those those days I'll take the l, I can draw back to them. So I had one last week. I took my 7 year old and one of his friends, one of his classmates. They were on spring break last week. Took him took him to trampoline par, and it's how seeing how happy they were and having the friend comment like, gee, I always knew you were the coolest dad at school.

Gerard Gousman [00:29:36]: And I was like, you remember to tell all the other kids that when you go back to school next week. Okay? He's like, oh, they already know. Like, you alright. Now you're just messing with me. Get out of here. I'm like, what do you want?

Gerard Gousman [00:29:46]: He's like, no. Really? We like you. It's like, okay. Maximus is that's my son. Like, Maximus is always he sure ain't always happy, and he seems to have a lot of fun. And you guys do cool things, and you always do cool stuff for us at school. So that's why, like, yeah. You're definitely the coolest dad at school.

Gerard Gousman [00:30:03]: And I was like, alright.

Gerard Gousman [00:30:04]: I'm gonna remember this. See how long this last. I'm gonna remember this. Bring this back up in a couple of months when you're making fun of me. Because last year in kindergarten, they were all making fun of me for being bald. So to know that I'm one of them thinks that I'm cool. That's not mine. That that I'm taking that weed.

Gerard Gousman [00:30:20]: Yeah. Just knowing that it was cool like that. It seemed that not just because we do and giving them stuff, but it's like that. The other kids notice how happy my kids are and think that it's because of me. That that was a win for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:32]: Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Gerard Gousman [00:30:36]: Which one on which day? Open? Fun? Tired? A good cook? Positive. More often than not, I am positive and try to keep them focused on a positive trajectory.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:48]: Who inspires you to be a better dad?

Gerard Gousman [00:30:50]: First off, my kids. They I feel like seeing the growth and seeing the smaller lessons. The things that I don't think that they all the things that you don't think they listened to that they didn't hear. And seeing them engage in the world as positivity and seeing them being kind and open and taking care of others, that generally is recharging to me. Like, alright. I'm doing something. I'm doing something right. How can I build on this? Right? So I have kinda curated a great great base of dads.

Gerard Gousman [00:31:22]: So I'm getting lots of great dad content from different podcasts. The things that a lot of the dads in our network do, the way they interact with their kids, the risk that dads take, putting their selves out there to not only tackle their home and family stuff, but in going out and living their dreams. And guys like Matt Strain, who all the stuff for his family, but also as a triathlete and doing things like that. Like, man, I couldn't imagine running on a walker like myself. He's like, no, man. It's you just gotta get into it and and go and delve in and do it. Like, having dads who push the envelope and really put their stuff out there to be more than just dad. And try to remember that, a, we were once young, vibrant men with dreams and hopes and hobbies and try the the dads who find themselves and get back to that and are but are still fully active in in their debt.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:19]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things for all of us to think about and to consider for our own journeys as dads. As we leave today, as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Gerard Gousman [00:32:32]: I'd say, in closing, the it tends to know that becoming a father doesn't have to mark the end of you being a man. You can find those avenues to be able to go out and maintain your happiness, maintain your peace, and be a person. Right? And don't lose yourself in that, that go to your kids to see that you are not just that, but that you are still vibrant and that you love your life and are living a life that makes you happy, not just living a life of service. So I think that would be the that's the biggest thing I would share is, like, to go out and make sure that your kids see you being happy with your life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:17]: Well, Gerard, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today. If people people wanna find out more about you, where should they go?

Gerard Gousman [00:33:24]: I am so boring, but join the National At Home Data Network. We are doing membership drive. If they come and join us, Come hang out with us at DadCon in Saint Louis this year. That's in October. And it's the only way you can find me in one of those forums if I'm not somewhere wrangling?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:40]: Well, Gerard, just thank you. Thank you so much for being here, and I wish you all the best.

Gerard Gousman [00:33:44]: Thank you very much for having me. Appreciate being on. Will be listening.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:48]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:47]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:27]: Get out and be the world to them. Be the best that you can be.

Dads With Daughters is part of The Dads Podcast Network, powered by DadsSupportingDads.org

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Balancing Family Life and Professional Responsibilities as a Dad with Daughters

Fatherhood presents a unique set of challenges and joys, each intertwined with the fabric of daily life. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome Ryan Moore, a bi-vocational pastor and school counselor and father, who shares his journey of raising five daughters while balancing his professional commitments. This insightful episode delves deep into the nuances of fatherhood, mental well-being, and the nurturing of relationships.

Growing Up with Sisters:

An Early Advantage Ryan Moore's upbringing played a significant role in shaping his perspective on fatherhood. Growing up with two sisters and no brothers in a foreign country provided him with a unique advantage: an intrinsic understanding of others' thoughts and feelings. This background laid the foundation for his empathetic approach to parenting, allowing him to be more attuned to his daughters' needs.

"I had to be more intentional with my word choice and approach," Ryan shares, emphasizing the importance of intentional communication. This deliberate gentleness has been pivotal in his journey of raising daughters, helping him engage effectively and avoid the stereotypical "male responses" that might inadvertently harm them.

The Importance of Healthy Relationships

One of Ryan's primary hopes for his daughters is for them to cultivate healthy relationships. Having struggled with unhealthy relationships in his past, Ryan deeply values the importance of faith and strong, nurturing connections. He aspires for his daughters to develop bonds that are nourished by mutual respect and love, both within the family and beyond.

As a bi-vocational pastor, he integrates his faith into daily family life, ensuring that his daughters understand the value of spirituality and compassion. His wife's organizational skills and passion for helping people further reinforce this environment, creating a home where every member feels supported and valued.

Navigating Professional Challenges and Personal Well-being

Ryan Moore's role at Oxford Virtual Academy and as a former counselor at Oxford High School has had its share of challenges. The tragic shootings at Oxford High School took a significant toll on his mental well-being, making it difficult to transition back to family life. "Coping with such trauma requires a conscious effort," he notes, underscoring the importance of mental health for fathers.

To manage stress and maintain a work-life balance, Ryan introduced weekly board game nights. These gatherings not only serve as a fun family activity but also help develop critical skills in his children, such as risk assessment and spatial thinking. Additionally, the Moore family indulges in month-long road trips during the summer, exploring national parks and cultural sites to reconnect and rejuvenate.

Embracing a New Adventure:

The Africa Mercy Ship A significant upcoming chapter for Ryan and his family involves joining the Africa Mercy ship for a two-year term. As chaplain, Ryan will provide spiritual support and counseling for the crew, while his daughters, Evangeline and Seyla, attend the onboard Mercy Academy. This move, inspired by his childhood experiences in Germany and his faith journey, marks a thrilling yet daunting transition for the Moore family.

The Africa Mercy ship, operated by Mercy Ships, delivers essential medical care, including surgeries and rehabilitation, to communities in Madagascar and Sierra Leone. Ryan is particularly excited about the opportunity to serve in a global mission, reflecting his long-standing passion for helping others.

Fatherhood as Mentorship:

A Heartfelt Insight In the "Fatherhood Five," a segment of the podcast, Ryan describes fatherhood as "mentorship." He cherishes every hug from his daughters, seeing these moments as markers of his success as a father. Inspired by his faith and his own father, Ryan aims to instill confidence in his children, reminding fellow dads that perfection is impossible, but love is crucial.

He advises, "You'll never be fully ready. Just love on your kids and acknowledge your imperfections." This authentic and heartfelt approach encapsulates Ryan's philosophy on parenting, offering invaluable wisdom for dads navigating the complexities of raising daughters in today's world.

Ryan Moore's journey, as shared on the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, offers a wealth of insights for fathers everywhere. His experiences highlight the importance of empathetic communication, maintaining mental well-being, fostering healthy relationships, and embracing new adventures with faith and courage. As Ryan and his family prepare for their voyage with the Africa Mercy ship, his story stands as a testament to the profound impact of intentional and loving fatherhood.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dance with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, walk with you on this journey that you're on. You know, I've got 2 daughters. I know that you've got daughters as you're listening. And I'm hoping that every week as you're listening, you're taking some notes, you're jotting some things down, you're learning some things and you're finding some things that you can take for yourself that might help you in this journey that you're on because you don't have to do this alone. I've said that over and over and over again, and I'll keep saying it. We don't have to father alone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:57]: You don't have to man up. You don't have to act like you know everything because none of us know everything when we walk into fatherhood, we have to learn it along the way. And that's what this podcast is all about. This podcast is all about helping each of us to be able to find that path that we want to walk on, but also to be able to learn from others that have walked on the path before us, but also are walking alongside us that are doing things and maybe a little bit different way than we might be doing that we can learn from grow from, and maybe take some things along the way from that can help us in that journey that we're on. Every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different dads that are walking this journey in a little bit different way that have different resources, different opportunities, different things that they can share with you. And today we've got another great guest. Ryan Moore is with us today. Ryan is a father of 5 and definitely a father of daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: So we're going to be talking to him about his own journey and his journey as a father to daughters and learn a little bit more about him. Ryan, thanks so much for joining us today.

Ryan Moore [00:02:00]: Thanks, Chris. Yeah. Good to see you again. And I love what you're doing with the show. And, yeah, I love your vision for why you're doing this. It's very cool.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:06]: Well, I love that we're able to reconnect and to be able to talk about fatherhood. I wanna turn the clock back in time to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a dad to a daughter. This is especially after having 3 sons.

Ryan Moore [00:02:19]: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:20]: What was going through your head?

Ryan Moore [00:02:22]: Oh, boy. Well, I didn't realize it right at first, but it was going to be a huge shift. The old saying is, every guy wants a son, but every man needs a daughter. And the biggest difference in my thinking was that with my boys, they're just little clones of me. And so when they're getting into stuff, you know, we knock each other around. We go on these adventures. And I almost imagine that I understand exactly what they're going through at any given moment in time because I've been there. But the moment that I started having daughters, everything's different.

Ryan Moore [00:02:54]: I mean, all of a sudden, I don't know how to change a diaper again. I don't know how to respond to crises. I don't understand why feelings are popping up. And I think that was palpable from, I think, right away, even. Like once I knew we were I was about to have a daughter, I knew, okay, this is going to be a shift. This is gonna be an adventure. And it's an adventure that I was thrilled about. It was an adventure that my heart just, my heart just swelled with joyful anticipation.

Ryan Moore [00:03:22]: And yeah, it's been a wonderful adventure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:24]: Now a lot of dads that I talk to talk about that there is joy, but there's also some fear. And you had already had 3 boys along the way. So you'd gone through that experience of having children and understanding what it meant to be a father in that perspective. But what would you say was your biggest fear in raising daughters?

Ryan Moore [00:03:45]: Oh, boy. Somehow my, I don't know, my maleness or my insensitivity or my, responses to things or the emotions that I carry with me as a guy would somehow arm my child. Like I said with my guys, we knock each other around and and then, you know, we come to like, if if we yell, we yell. If or if we're playing, we get a little rough. Or if, I have an opinion, they know about it. If they have opinion, I know about it. And then we we work through it, and that's good. Right? But that somehow I would harm my girls with the same process.

Ryan Moore [00:04:18]: And, yeah, truly, I I did have to shift. Having daughters forced me immediately to reconsider how intentionally gentle I was being in communication, how intentionally thoughtful I was being with my word choice. Not to say that I didn't care with my boys, but like I said, they're little clones of me and I would I just automatically assume that heart to heart and mind to mind, we we get each other. And now that my boys are all adults, we do. We get each other. You know? And, yeah, with my girls, I've had to shift. It was definitely a shift. But it made me a better person.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:54]: Now from the words that you're saying in knowing you as well, I can tell that you're a little more in tune with your feelings, and you're a little more in tune with who you are as a person. So I'm asking this in the sense of you stepping back and maybe not thinking about all the training that you've had over the years as a counselor, as a pastor, etcetera. But as you're thinking about that for yourself and being in tune with your daughters, what did you have to do? What were the some of those steps that you had to take intentionally that other dads can take as well as they have their daughters or are growing with their daughters and may not be at the same place you were in that training and such?

Ryan Moore [00:05:38]: Yeah. It's funny. I am a licensed counselor and therapist and also, minister with the Assemblies of God. And all that to say, all the training and all the studies and and everything, it took me a master's degree just to get to the point where I was as good of a listener as my wife intuitively was already. So, like, I had to train to be I had to learn skills intentionally to be a good listener. A good illustration of this is my boys, we were not going to give them when we raise them, we had decided that we didn't want to raise violent children. So we were not going to give them toy guns. We were going to give them creative things, tools, Legos, whatever, building blocks.

Ryan Moore [00:06:21]: And outside, they would go play. We live on 5 acres, and we kind of have a free range mentality for our kids. Go outside, play in the woods. It's good for you. And so they would go in the woods and play. At one point, everything became either a lightsaber or a gun. Everything. Every single stick they picked up was a lightsaber or a gun.

Ryan Moore [00:06:42]: And once we had girls, everything became alive. Everything became a sentient being. Every clump of clay was a little character that had feelings, and every doll had opinions. And as these girls grew up, they grew up thinking about how this doll felt about that bear, And they would share experiences together, and this doll would share its opinion about how the tea tasted to the bear. Whereas, as my boys were growing and my girls were growing, I was watching them play. And as they got older and into teenage worlds, my girls were adapting their play into the real world, where now they're highly skilled at imagining what other people are thinking and feeling, and they're able to communicate. And my boys, you know, at the time being, late teens or whatever, were still outside hitting each other with sticks. So it's like there was this huge difference in the way thinking process naturally developed.

Ryan Moore [00:07:45]: And I think the same was absolutely true for me. I grew up with 2 sisters and no brothers in a foreign country. And so I think I had a little bit of an advantage in learning how to intuit other people's thoughts and feelings because that was my core friend group overseas. And so it was a little easier for me, I think. And so I was always interested in trying to understand what other people were thinking and feeling, but it definitely took more skill and intent. And so, yeah, with my girls, I just had to stop and think about rather than just share bluntly what my thought process was on a thing or share bluntly what my opinion was on a thing, there was a certain rule set that benefited them that I had to enter into a certain civility that I had to understand to be able to engage on the level that they appreciated hearing. And that helped me be a much more effective father when I realized that they naturally had this, I guess, rules of engagement that they had worked out that I that I needed to, engage in. And God bless my wife, man, because she had to deal with those poor boys, you know, until I figured out that, okay, okay, I definitely need to, I definitely need to be more intentional with my word choice and my approach.

Ryan Moore [00:09:08]: And again, I'm a counselor, so so you one would think that that I had the necessary tools to already begin a relationship with that in place. But yeah, no, sadly, I'm still getting there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:20]: Now, as you think back to the time that you've had with your daughters thus far, you talked about your fears. What was the hardest part so far in being a father to a daughter?

Ryan Moore [00:09:29]: I deeply wanted them to each just to be able to engage socially with other people, spiritually with their faith, And if I'm overzealous in any one area or really keen, I worry most about both how they interact with other people and how they interact with their faith and with the Lord. I just deeply want them to have healthy relationships in the way that that I've come to have a relationship in my faith, but also healthy relationships with their peers, because I see a lot of pitfalls. And I see that, you know, in my past, in my history, I engage in a lot of unhealthy relationships as a coping mechanism, be it drugs or inappropriately affectionate, too early, or all these different ways of regulating how I feel during difficult times. And so my strategy was be there as their father, be present as a father, be the father figure who dotes on them and loves them and fills them up so they don't have to go to the world to get that. But then from a position of fullness, help them navigate how to make good friends and how to choose supports that are appropriate and how to choose friend groups that are beneficial and that look out for them. And so, yeah, so that was my fear and my strategy for that. My fear was always, yeah, they're going to fall in a bad crowd. If I don't file appropriately, they're gonna rebel somehow and run into the bad crowd or whatnot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:54]: Now you've been very busy in your career, You put a lot of heart and soul into the work that you do. And over the last few years, you've been kind of consumed by the work that you do. I should probably step back and say that currently, you do work within the Oxford Schools and have been very involved with helping kids that were impacted by the shootings that did occur on campus at the high school. So with all of that busyness, with all of the things that you put into the person that you are personally, professionally, talk to me about balance and how you have been able to find that balance for yourself to be able to be the father you wanna be while also giving your heart and soul to the work and the other passions that you have.

Ryan Moore [00:11:48]: Bi vocational pastor for me means that on top of my full time job, I'm teaching Bible classes. I'm teaching I do weddings every now and then, or I do premarital counseling, or I do all these things that a pastor would do on top of the what's on paper meant to be a 40 hour work week. Now anybody in education knows, Chris is laughing visibly at me right now because he knows where I'm going. Anybody who works with education knows that there's no such thing as a 40 hour workweek within education because traditionally, boundaries are very blurred between work life and personal life because educators don't get into education for work life. Educators get into education for personal reasons. Nobody gets into education because of the money. It's not a business transaction. It's a passion.

Ryan Moore [00:12:32]: And so when COVID hit, always in the past, I had been struggling with, do I wanna pursue more administrative pursuits within education, or do I wanna pursue ministry? So I've been a school counselor for 20 years and a therapist for 20 years. And I love what I do. I love being able to connect with kids who benefit from the support. I love being able to to help young people figure out how to become a productive citizen or a contributing member to society. I love helping them discover their giftings and their callings and their passions and their skills to figure out, well, how does that practically fit into society? That's what drives me as a school counselor. That's what I love doing. I love helping people grow as a young adult. And so very passionate about that.

Ryan Moore [00:13:16]: During my career, I picked up an an ed specialist degree to pursue public school leadership, And I thought, well, you know what? This is not a fork in the road for ministry versus school leadership because I can use this if I go into ministry, that led to a position of dean of students at Oxford High School. So when I first that led to a position of dean of students at Oxford High School. So when I first started working for Oxford, it was as the dean of students at the high school. And which was great because that position was just dealing with discipline. It was basically enforcement of the school code of conduct was, bottom line, the job description. And what that meant practically was busting into bathrooms to see who's vaping and and checking backpacks for for vapes and whatnot. And so it put me in touch with, I I feel like, the kids who really needed that one person at the school to care about them. So I felt like I was in a unique position to be very effective in that role.

Ryan Moore [00:14:15]: But what I missed was the fact that I would not be able to be the person providing that care because I wasn't in a council role. And I did well in the role for 2 years. I enjoyed a lot of aspects of it. Didn't enjoy some aspects of it. But after 2 years, I was ready to get back into counseling. So when COVID hit, I shifted back into the counseling role at working for Oxford Virtual Academy, which is one of the schools in the district. And we trade a lot of students back and forth. Oxford Virtual and Oxford High School do.

Ryan Moore [00:14:43]: And then I also decided that time to begin pursuing my master's of divinity. And that was kind of the fork in the road for me. And then a year after that is when the shooting happened at Oxford High School. And when the shooting happened at Oxford at Oxford High School. And when the shooting happened at Oxford High School, all of us counselors just dove in head first. And we gave all of our time and all of our energy and all of our passion to helping these kids. And it did take a huge mental toll. When I came home from that, I was not able to really shift well into family life on a day to day as I had previously.

Ryan Moore [00:15:14]: When I was working as a Dean of Students, I was able to shut it off, right? I was able to, you know, we're dealing with rules, we're dealing with violations, and we're dealing with the person. Okay. You broke a rule. Here's a consequence. But let's help let's help reconnect you. Let's do some sort of practice. I could leave that alone at the end of the day. It was never so traumatic that it stuck with me as I left the building.

Ryan Moore [00:15:33]: And there was very little that I would have to do after hours. But when the tragedy struck, it was nonstop. And so that was a huge challenge. 2 of the things, actually, I should say that that helped me out. I always made sure that we had board game night. So growing up, I was kind of a nerd, and I really liked, you know, I liked D and D. I liked, board games. I liked chess.

Ryan Moore [00:15:55]: I liked, there was this little tabletop game called Hero Quest and march your little guy, your little warrior around to fight orcs and whatnot. You roll your dice and risk access and allies and that stuff. Loved it. Monopoly. So that whole hobby had shifted into some amazing strategy games. And I actually did my ed specialist research on that, on how strategy games can be used to mitigate the educational loss of poverty. That's a whole different topic. But I decided early on that this would be a good tool to engage with my kids on an intellectual level the whole way growing up.

Ryan Moore [00:16:29]: Like, so at any developmental level, there is a developmentally appropriate game that allows me to get on their intellectual strategic level. And through these strategy games, we can process risk assessment. We can process basic statistic principles. We can process valuation of things, and we can process geometric and spatial thinking, depending on the game, of tactics and all these metacognitive processes because after the game, we always kind of debrief our strategies. Oh, I could have done this different. And so once a week, we always tried to have a board game night. And so even when things got crazy and rough, we would always try to have some night a week where we would all reconnect. Another is, you know, one of the benefits of working for the schools is that, yeah, we all agree that we're giving way too much time to a school.

Ryan Moore [00:17:20]: So summertime, don't call me. Summertime, I'm not a school counselor. Summertime, I am off the clock. And we disappear. And so we, my family and I had gotten into this amazing pattern of taking month long road trips. A lot of my family is from Canada and a lot of my family has land and cottages up there that we frequently visit. But also there's this amazing resource that all of us in this country have a free access to, and that's our national park system. And, so we load up the van and I let the kids pick a destination that they want to explore.

Ryan Moore [00:17:53]: You wanna go explore mountains? Okay. We're driving to the Rockies and we're gonna find some national forests. It's free to camp in the national forests. So we became, very good at finding spots to explore and hike that didn't cost anything. You know, 5 kids and a school counselor salary. We needed to run on a budget, and so we really got good at adventures. And so in the summertime, the 7 of us learned how to really, get along in enclosed spaces and do some physically challenging things out in the woods, or, exploring cultural locations, or, just getting to know this country really well. And so they really got to know me on a personal level through those weekly interactions and through the summer.

Ryan Moore [00:18:36]: And then the third thing is always our church. Regardless of where I've gone through, we've gone to different churches at different times based on what our family needed and and these different churches had offered. But always we become involved and my, my kids will watch the pattern of involvement that my wife and I present to them. And they'll learn from that and jump in. And I mean, every church we've been to, my kids have been as involved as we are. So, you know, I'm thinking of 1 church where, you know, my girl's working in the nursery. 1 of my guys is running the sound. 1 of my guys is on stage doing drums.

Ryan Moore [00:19:09]: And, you know, like every kid I do the school counselor thing, I guess, of trying to figure out where each one's personality, giftings, and passions can have a place at play in, in a church service or in the operation of a church. And I help them plug in. And so they own the church as much as I do. Right? And so, so faith and church organization actually becomes an extension of my mentorship to these little humans. And again, it just becomes a neat way on a Sunday for them to see who I am and and for them to learn from who I am by doing stuff. But working in the school, yeah, they really want your time. And I think that was probably the biggest decision maker. When I was observing principals and talking specifically with principals about this, I heard the theme, they really want your whole life.

Ryan Moore [00:19:59]: They really want you to donate all your time. And it's like, well, gosh, that time belongs to my wife and kids. So how does one reconcile that? Oh, no, no. Your family life is out the window. You're not allowed to. And so that became one of the biggest things to help me realize that school administration was not the passion that I was going to pursue. But also, I just love teaching the bible, and I love doing all that. So that that that, you know, that that became one of the main reasons I wanted to go into ministry as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]: Some of the things that you were talking about really have led you in a new direction. You're going to be leaving your current position as a counselor in the school, and you're going to be moving your entire family onto a ship. You're going to be getting involved with Mercy Ships and getting involved in a brand new ministry opportunity that is going to take especially you, your partner, and your 2 girls on an adventure overseas. So talk to me a little bit about this and what made you kind of led you into this. I know that when you were a kid, you grew up in Germany and had that cultural experience and I'm sure that that is leading some of this decision making. But talk to me about what led you to now moving into this experience for you, for your family, for your daughters to give them this experience in their lives?

Ryan Moore [00:21:23]: Yeah. So my dad worked for GM, and so we were in Germany for about 4 years. And when I was in Germany, I was that weird kid with the American accent. And then we moved to Ohio, and I was the weird kid with the German accent. And then we moved to Michigan in high school, and then I was a weird kid with the Ohio accent and slightly German. And, yeah. So, I never quite fit in. And you remember me, Chris.

Ryan Moore [00:21:44]: In high school, there were 2 Ryan Moores. And one Ryan Moore was, affectionately referred to as the smart Ryan Moore. And I don't know if you if you remember the nickname that I was given. I don't mind sharing it. It was the stoner Ryan Moore was the nickname that I was given, because that was how I coped with really challenging feelings. And also, that was the culture that I decided to engage with because I calculated, like, oh, these people are having fun. I know exactly how to engage with that. And so I made a strategic decision to engage with that culture in the way that I did, and it worked.

Ryan Moore [00:22:19]: It provided me with support and whatnot. But, you know, like, it also left a lot of holes and everything. And then fast forward a little bit, and I had an experience in faith, total conversion of my life, and everything changed. I think you probably knew me right at the crossroads of that time, and so I think my last few years of high school, I was walking a very serious faith as a Christian, and my whole life changed. And and so that was another cultural shift. I lost a lot of friends during that process, and that's who I am today. My wife and I got married when she was 21 and I was 22. And we both wanted to do ministry work.

Ryan Moore [00:22:55]: We moved to South Carolina and we visited what was at the time the Caribbean Mercy. The Caribbean Mercy was a hospital ship and their mission was help the lame to walk and to restore the sight to the blind. A a biblical Jesus message. And so they would go all through the Caribbean doing surgeries, removing cataracts, and repairing leg deformities. Just this amazing ministry. We're like, we're gonna do this. We wanna do this. And so that's what we decided we were gonna do as young married couple.

Ryan Moore [00:23:19]: And then she got pregnant. And so, we had to pause our application, and this is our first kid. And they said, well, you know, have your kid take a couple years and then come back because you don't want to be pregnant on the ship. Well, in a couple years, obviously, she was pregnant again. And a couple years after that, she was pregnant again. And this kept happening. And, so we moved back to Michigan. I became a counselor, took a job, and we became this all American family where we had a dog, some acreage, and a house, which was never the plan for us.

Ryan Moore [00:23:47]: And we loved it, though, and we treasured it. And it was amazing, but it was totally not expected from the very beginning. And so, now all of our kids are older, and we're looking around, and it's like, you know what? This dream that we had, we can shift again, and this might actually work. And I started talking to my girls about it, and they loved the idea. So as a 3rd culture kid, that's the term for somebody who, like I did when I moved overseas, I had the culture of origin, which was Ohio, that we moved from to Germany. And then I had the culture of Germany, which was the kids in that neighborhood. And then I had the 3rd culture is the culture that we invent. So which is this group of people that have a similar transient experience, and you can all relate to one another being a third culture kid because this experience of transience, this experience of not belonging, but this instant recognition with other kids who have this cultural, intercultural, inter cross boundary understanding of the world.

Ryan Moore [00:24:45]: They get you, and you get them right away. And so that was really cool. And I really appreciated that part of my upbringing, because even now, I feel like I just feel like that's part of my personality, that big changes don't bother me. I love interacting with cultures that are not my own. I love bridging gaps between various cultures, ethnicities, languages, etcetera. And it's a joy of mine, and I think a lot of third culture kids experience that. So I wanted some kind of experience like that for my own kids, and now my girls get to do something like that. So my Evangeline, she has a very strong faith, and she loves kids.

Ryan Moore [00:25:19]: And so she's been saying things like, I wanna be a missionary, or I wanna be a teacher, or I wanna be a nurse for kids overseas. At one point, she came and was like, dad, wouldn't it be cool if I was running an orphanage? I'm like, yes. That would be amazing. And so when Mercy Ships now when she thinks about going over there, she's gonna be observing these nurses that help kids and teachers that work with kids in that kind of setting. And so she's just through the roof about the opportunities that that will firsthand bring to her. Let me backtrack a little bit. Mercy Ships is now a fleet of 2 ships. The Caribbean Mercy has long been decommissioned.

Ryan Moore [00:25:56]: And so now it's the Africa Mercy and the Global Mercy, and these ships are so much bigger than the Caribbean ever was. The Africa Mercy can sleep, I think, 500, and the Global can sleep 600. That's the newest flagship. But the position I'm taking is chaplain aboard the Africa Mercy, And the Africa Mercy right now is in Madagascar. I think the Global Mercy is in Sierra Leone. And so the Africa Mercy just began her field service in Madagascar. And in May, she'll begin doing surgeries. And there's something like 1200 people signed up for surgery currently.

Ryan Moore [00:26:28]: And so in a 9 month field service, they do all these surgeries, mainly maxillofacial surgeries, or I know they do some dental surgeries. They remove tumors. They fix cleft palates. They're still doing a lot of the leg work. And then in this 9 month field service, they also do the most of the, or a large portion of the rehab, the physical rehab post surgery. And then during this whole time, they're also training people on land, training locals to run clinics, and then they donate all of their gear, all of their equipment to these local clinics. So at the end of that field service, you've got all these clinics trained for recovery, and then the ship leaves and goes and restocks and picks a new port of call for the next round of field service. Well, there's gonna be 2 field services in Madagascar back to back this time, And we'll be joining them towards the end of the first one in July.

Ryan Moore [00:27:17]: Me as the chaplain and my wife as what's called the primary caretaker for our girls, which is a required position when you bring kids. But she's also a hairdresser, and she's also quite skilled in HR. She's always done, like, church volunteer coordination. And so she's very interested in a position on board for helping people onboard and helping people transition into Shiplife. And so that is something that she's looking forward to doing. But our girls are, they're very excited. My younger, Sala, she's the 14 year old. She's just the easygoing one.

Ryan Moore [00:27:48]: She's just the up for anything one. And so right now we started selling all of our stuff. And so it's starting to feel real. And so the loss of it is starting to hit, right? Because a transition like that is all about a balance between excitement for the new thing, but also loss and mourning for what is disappearing from your life, like all your old friends and all your stuff. And so she's feeling it now. She's going up and down. And so, you know, the emotions are coming out of nowhere for both of my girls. I'm just in mission mode right now.

Ryan Moore [00:28:14]: I'm just in like, go, go, go mode. But they're in this like, yeah, real excited. But then like, oh no, my friends are, yeah, this is going to be amazing. And then, oh, I'm gonna miss all my stuff. I have to give away 90% of my things. And so it's a real emotional roller coaster, but still with the theme of hope and joy for the work that's before us. So they're still on board. That's expected as one begins a transition like that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:39]: So talk to me about this journey and how long you're going to be on it and what your role is going to be, and how your kids are going to be involved in that.

Ryan Moore [00:28:49]: Okay. So with the surgeries, most of the people on ship are either serving in a ship crew capacity or a medical capacity. And I'll be taking the chaplain role, which is essentially ship's pastor for all the crew. So there's a chaplaincy team for the crew, and then there's a hospital chaplaincy team for the patients, and I will be one of the chaplain team for the crew. And so I'll be helping run services on the Sundays. I'll be doing a lot of counseling. I'll actually be starting out. My position will be what's called a chaplaincy counselor, and so I'll be handling transitions and mental health crises and difficult moments and things like that.

Ryan Moore [00:29:27]: So and one of the things I'm really excited about there is the fact that there's 32 nations represented on board. And so the American component is just a small fraction of the crew. Significant portion of the crew is Great Britain, Dutch. There's a significant African representation, some Asian representation, and some South American representation. 32 different nations. And I think of any church I've ever been to. And there's always conflict because no matter where you go, there's always people, and, you know, people have conflict. And in church, conflict is dealt with with certain agreements and rules and, you know, the Holy Spirit guiding you.

Ryan Moore [00:30:08]: And so I'm really interested when you mix in also the communication, ethnic, linguistic, cultural differences of 32 different nations. I'm very excited to, to help bridge that gap. You know, I feel like this is like, gosh, I feel like all the things I've ever done, I feel like are going to be used in making this job work. And I don't know. I just feel like it's, it's what I it's a job I've been looking for my whole life, if that makes sense. It's it's a dream job. It's definitely a dream job. And so 2 years, I've committed to a 2 year term aboard the Africa Mercy.

Ryan Moore [00:30:42]: So that'll be both field services of Madagascar and a 3rd field service yet to be determined location wise. But really, if we love it, we'll stay. And if they love us, we'll probably stay. But it it's hard to predict the future. Right? But I have committed to 2 years. And so in those 2 years, Evangeline will be in her junior and senior year. And, so there's the African I'm sorry. There's the, the Mercy Academy, which is an accredited academy both in the States and in Europe.

Ryan Moore [00:31:11]: And so we could pursue, depending on where she thinks she might want to go to college 2 years from now, we could pursue diploma credentials for either, school setting. And yeah, it's apparently very rigorous and she's up for the challenge. And then my younger, Seyla, 14 years old, will be a freshman. So she'll have her freshman and sophomore years on board. And we're ready to jump into that. The girls, like I said, they're very excited. Seyla doesn't quite know what she wants to study yet, but she's interested in the nursing, and she's interested in the medical. And so she was interested in seeing how those careers look and potentially going in that direction in the future.

Ryan Moore [00:31:49]: But she's my only one that we really don't know yet just because she's happy with everything. So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. But my wife, like I said, she's always gotten into different volunteer organizer roles. Every church we've gone to, she's kind of been the, the one to organize people and, and help them figure out how to plug into different positions. And, she's excellent at it. And she's she's got education in business administration. And so she falls into that role neatly. But more than anything, she likes working with people, and she likes getting to know people.

Ryan Moore [00:32:18]: So it's not like she wants to be doing a business thing behind the scenes, but working directly with people to help them figure out how to plug in. So she's very interested in that. And then when people find out that she's a hairdresser, as we're meeting people on ship right now through Zoom meetings and through training meetings online, once they find out she's a hairdresser, they all kind of go a little bit nuts because they really want a hairdresser on board as well. So I'm sure she will get her arm twisted into that role again. And she loves doing that as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:42]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. You ready?

Ryan Moore [00:32:49]: Okay. Let's go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:50]: In one word, what is fatherhood?

Ryan Moore [00:32:52]: Mentorship.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:53]: When was the time that you finally felt that you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Ryan Moore [00:32:57]: Oh, I think every time they gave me a big old hug. Every time I get a hug from my daughters, I feel like, alright, I'm doing something right.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:04]: Now if I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad?

Ryan Moore [00:33:08]: Oh, they'd hopefully say that I was funny, kind, adventurous, and challenging. I hope.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:16]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Ryan Moore [00:33:17]: Yeah. I mean, you've heard me talk about my faith a lot. And, you know, there's for me, there's no better example than than how much God loves us. And the biblical example we have of a loving father is is my standard. Gosh. I've got my dad is an amazing provider, and my dad is an amazing problem solver. And though our personalities are drastically different and our approaches at things are drastically different, instinctively, growing up, I always knew that no matter how bad things would get, I had a safety net. He would always be there.

Ryan Moore [00:33:49]: He would always be able to provide. He would always be able to drop everything and rescue me should I should I ask for it? And that has given me a sense of I can do anything. Because at the very least, I know if I totally screw this all up, my dad will take me in. So I strive to be that. I strive to give my my kids a self of confidence in that same way as my dad did and does to say, go out there, do anything. And what's the worst that can happen? You come back, and I give you a great big hug, and we try again. My dad's an inspiration for that, for sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:28]: Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things for all of us to think about in the way that we father. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you wanna give to every father?

Ryan Moore [00:34:37]: You're not ready. You'll never be ready. Yeah. You've screwed up already. And you'll continue to screw up. Just oh, boy. Yep. So lean into that that being a fact.

Ryan Moore [00:34:48]: Get yourself up and just love on those girls. There's no perfect father. Well, there's a perfect father. I'm not it. That's for sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:57]: Well, thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your own journey as a father, and I wish you all the best.

Ryan Moore [00:35:03]: Chris, it's been my pleasure and great to reconnect again. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:05]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:04]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men. Get out and be the dad you can be.

Dads With Daughters is part of The Dads Podcast Network, powered by DadsSupportingDads.org

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Parenting, particularly fatherhood, is a journey laden with challenges, emotions, and an unwavering sense of responsibility. In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, I welcome Quentarious Jones and Demetrius Roe Jones of the Not Your Average Girl Dad Podcast we delve deep into the nuances of raising daughters. They offer listeners not only their personal experiences but also invaluable advice on how fathers can maintain strong, emotional connections with their daughters while growing themselves.

Fostering Emotional Connections

One of the primary themes discussed in this episode is the importance of fathers understanding and connecting with their daughters' emotions. Both Quentarious and Demetrius opened up about the challenges they faced in expressing vulnerability, stemming from their own upbringings. They emphasize that showing emotion isn't a weakness but a strength that fosters deeper connections with their daughters.

Quentarious reflected, "Embracing and expressing my emotions has been a journey not just for my well-being, but for the emotional health of my daughters." This insight aligns with Dr. Lewis's message — that fathers should be consistent and willing to show vulnerability. Embracing this openness allows daughters to feel understood, supported, and emotionally secure.

The Challenge of Understanding Emotions

Raising daughters brings unique emotional challenges. Quentarious and Demetrius highlighted their initial fears and concerns upon learning they were going to be fathers. The fear of not being able to protect their daughters, especially from emotional pain, weighed heavily on them.

Demetrius shared his struggle with showing vulnerability, rooted in a strict upbringing. He realized that breaking this cycle was essential for his relationship with his daughters. He mentioned, "I grew up thinking that showing emotion was for the weak. But, understanding that being open and vulnerable is okay has been a revelation. It's something I want my daughters to see and learn."

These experiences underline the importance for fathers to better understand emotions, both their own and their daughters'. It's about breaking down societal norms that equate masculinity with stoicism and instead fostering an environment where emotional expression is encouraged and valued.

The Role of Fathers: More Than Just Providers

Another critical point discussed was the perception of fathers as mere providers. The hosts argue that fatherhood goes beyond financial support; it encompasses being an emotional pillar, a mentor, and a steadfast presence in their children's lives.

Dr. Lewis pointed out, "Being a father isn't just about providing; it's about being present and emotionally available. Our daughters need to see that we care, that we're here for them, not just in good times but through adversity too."

This paradigm shift from provider to an emotionally available guardian is vital. Fathers who engage with their daughters' emotional worlds help build their daughters' confidence and emotional resilience.

Not Showing Favoritism

Throughout their conversation, the topic of not showing favoritism among children was underscored. Both Quentarious and Demetrius spoke about the delicate balance needed to treat each child fairly. Quentarious noted, "It's important that our daughters feel valued and equally loved. Favoritism can create rifts that last a lifetime."

Avoiding favoritism involves understanding and appreciating each child's unique personality, needs, and emotions. This approach not only fosters individual growth but also strengthens familial bonds.

Faith and Leadership: Core Elements

As fathers and hosts of the "Not Your Average Girl Dad" podcast, Quentarious and Demetrius frequently discuss the intersection of fatherhood, faith, and leadership. Their podcast was born from regular conversations about life, music, and their roles as fathers, husbands, and leaders within their communities.

Discussing faith, they highlighted its role in navigating tough times. The duo believes that faith offers a foundation and a guiding light for fathers. "Having faith and finding joy in difficult situations is essential," emphasized Quentarious.

Their goal is to inspire other fathers by sharing principles they've learned and lived by. They hope that emphasizing faith and family in their podcast will resonate with their listeners.

The latest episode of "Dads with Daughters" is a treasure trove of wisdom for fathers navigating the complex landscape of raising daughters. As Quentarious, Demetrius, and Dr. Lewis share their stories and advice, one message stands clear: Fatherhood is an evolving journey that requires openness, emotional availability, and a commitment to learning.

Whether it's through fostering emotional connections, challenging societal norms, or drawing strength from faith, fathers play a pivotal role in shaping their daughters' lives. The insights shared in this episode serve as a reminder of the profound impact that an emotionally present, understanding, and faithful father can have. Fathers, you're not alone on this journey — reach out, connect, and continue growing.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to be here with you, to be able to talk with you, to work with you, to help you on this journey that you're on. And I say help, but really you're helping me too because by having this show, I have the opportunity to have amazing guests here, and I learn from them just as much as I'm hoping that you learn from them as well. And that's what it's all about. It you know, what's so important is that you and I know that we don't have to do this alone. Because so often in society today, we have this feeling that to be that amazing dad, you gotta you gotta man up. You gotta just push forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: You gotta do it and gotta know everything the moment your child's born. And the answer is you really don't, because you're not gonna know everything the moment your child is born. You're gonna fail many times, and that's okay. But you've got so many men around you that are fathers too and have done this. And if you're willing to let down your guard a little bit, we could use the v word right now. I've used it before. If You're willing to be a little vulnerable in saying, hey. I don't get this, or I don't got this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:33]: And you're willing to talk to some other dads around you, you're gonna learn a lot. And that's why why this show exists is to to be here, to be that resource for you, to let you be able to connect with other dads that have different experiences. And that's why every week we have different guests that we bring on to share their own experiences. And today we got 2 more great dads with us today. Demetrius Jones and Quinterius Jones are both with us today. They are both fathers of daughters. Demetrius has 3 daughters. Quinterius has 2 daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:04]: So we got a lot of daughters in the house, and and we're gonna be talking about the journeys that they have been on. And, also, we're gonna talk about a podcast that they do together called not your average girl dad podcast. So we're gonna be talking about that as well. So I'm really excited to have them here, guys. Thanks so much for being here today.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:02:20]: Thanks for having us.

Quentarious Jones [00:02:23]: Yeah. Thank you for having us, Chris. We really appreciate it. Very exciting.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:25]: So I wanna turn the clock back in time on both of you because you have daughters. And, Demetrius, you've got 3. Quentarius, you've got 2. So I wanna turn back the clock all the way back to that first moment when you found out that you were going to be a dad to a daughter. What was going through both your heads?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:02:43]: Well, I'll start first. When I found out I was going to be a dad, I was excited, actually. Because long story short, the doctor said we won't be able to have any kids. So my first child was literally my miracle child and we named her miracle. So I was excited. I was a little nervous, but I remember when it was getting closer and closer for the first time in a long time, I got butterfly in my stuff. I was excited. Yeah.

Quentarious Jones [00:03:09]: I would say the same. It was one of those things where I knew I always wanted kids. And my first thought was, okay, we're gonna have a son. I was like, I wanna have a son first girl, then another son. So I, at first I wanted 3 kids and to find out that, okay, we're having a girl. It was shocking. I was like, Hey, you know, you always have that, that 50, 50, but I was like, wow, okay, we're having a girl. So I was like, this is gonna be pretty cool.

Quentarious Jones [00:03:30]: One of the strangest things, and I kinda shared this on one of our episodes is that I actually had a dream about Kalani before she was born. So I didn't know her name was gonna be Kalani at the time, but I had a dream about her and she turned out to be the same little girl in my dream. And I just thought that was, wow. That's that was pretty cool, but it was an exciting time for us. It gave me a sense of real responsibility really quick. So it's been a joy being a girl dad. Been a joy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:04]: So one of the things that I think that I was gonna that I am kind of interested in knowing, and this is something that I talk to a lot of dads about, is that when I talk to dads about being dads with daughters, a lot of times they talk about that there is a fear to being a dad to a daughter. What would you say were both of your biggest fears in raising daughters?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:04:24]: My biggest fear is that I can't protect them at all times. I am so over protect them. It's like the smallest little thing. And it's like, what do you mean I have to go without me? What do you mean? Like, she was like, my wife was like, you know, you're a bitch. You have to go back to work. I was like, well, I'm taking them with me, you know? So it's just the fear of not being able to protect them all the time, but I just have to trust that God's watching over them and that he can protect them in ways that I can't. So that's my biggest fear.

Quentarious Jones [00:04:53]: I think I share a similar fear, but I would say more so just knowing that, and I'm kind of biased, of course, because I'm their dad, but just knowing that one day, hopefully, they will get married and just hoping that that guy can be anywhere close to what I provide for my daughters from a spiritual level, from a financial level, from a mental level. It's just being able to support them in a way that I know that I can and investing in them to be strong young women in the society that we live in. And so just hoping that they find someone that sees them as the jewels that they are. And so my fear would be is them not finding that someone and being maybe manipulated into or settling for something that I know that they can have more of or have a better situation with someone. So just hoping that they find someone that can that can bring that to the table.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:52]: Now fatherhood is never easy. It has its ups, its downs, and in betweens. And we were talking before about that about when they're young and they don't sleep and you barely keep your eyes open. So what's been the hardest part of being a father to a daughter thus far?

Quentarious Jones [00:06:09]: I'm gonna say the endless emotion. The spectrum of emotions. And because for me growing up, I haven't always been, and I can admit that I haven't always been, that in tune with my emotions. So having daughters has definitely opened me up to feeling more or being more in tune with my feelings. And learning that with them, everything matters is always something. And sometimes where they may whine about things that in my mind, I'm like, I don't think there's anything to whine about, but taking the time to sit down with them and really understand them as where they where they are. My wife helped me see this one time when we were, going through a situation with my oldest daughter when she was going to school, and she was having a tough time adjusting to starting school for the 1st few months. And we had a rough time getting up in the morning on the way to school, a lot of crying, a lot of I don't wanna go.

Quentarious Jones [00:07:07]: And my wife helped me see, even though I know they're human, she just told me, she's like, hey, Quinn. You just gotta think. She's a human just like you're human. Some days you're gonna have tough days. You're gonna have rough days. And her way of expressing it may be a little bit different from you because you're older and you kinda understand that you're not gonna cry about everything, but her way of expressing herself is through her tears. And so that helped me gain a little bit more patience with my daughters. And so I think that's the biggest challenge is just learning that they're humans just like we are.

Quentarious Jones [00:07:40]: They're just smaller humans, and they have their mood. They have their feelings and just learning to navigate them so that you can help meet them where they are and get the best out of the situation.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:07:51]: I would say trying to figure out each one of their many personalities. I have 3 beautiful girls and they have 3 totally different personalities. My oldest child, she's real pretty and I don't want to touch that. That's dirty and things of that nature. My middle child, she's kinda like tomboyish, like love playing in the dirt. And then my youngest is just bossy. You know, she's just like, I want it now. Give it to me.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:08:21]: And so it's just trying to figure them all out. And another thing, vulnerable, having a vulnerable moment is try not to show favoritism. Treating them all the same. I'm not gonna lie. It's hard at times because especially with my certain one, I could have my first, you know, that's your first. That's your priority. But you have to treat all of them the same. If one is no, all is no.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:08:45]: If one is yes, all is there. You get 1 piece of candy, gotta give all of them piece of candy. And so that's been the biggest challenge to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:53]: Well, then I'll tell you both. I mean, things don't change that much as they get older, and you're gonna have to keep being consistent as parents. You're going to have to keep working day in and day out to figure out the personalities and the emotions get even worse as they get into their teenage years. So you definitely have to kind of ride the wave and be willing to ride the wave. You know, one one of my past guests said this, and I've said this numerous times with different guests. And in a conversation that I had had with with a author, she said to me that one of the things that dads need to think about, especially dads with daughters need to think about, is the fact that so many of us as men are programmed innately to be fixers. So we go into situations always with the mentality of how can I fix this? And our daughters and our partners in life don't always want us to fix things. And you at times need to go into the conversations, especially with your daughters with the concept of asking your daughters when you're sitting down with them, is this a fixing conversation? Or is this a listening conversation? And let them decide.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:07]: And that was a moment. And it was I got it later in life, and I wish that I had got it earlier in life because I think that I would have incorporated that earlier because I had incorporated it when I found out about it. In my daughter's teenage years, they probably would have looked at me like I was an alien. And that they would have been like, stop using your psychobabble on me, dad. But if you have a younger daughter, that is a definite. Think about using that because it is something that I think will make a huge difference in how you communicate with the females in your life. I'm not just saying your daughters. I'm saying the females in your life.

Quentarious Jones [00:10:45]: And I think that's good because I kinda learned that with my wife. And now that you're saying that I never really looked at it that way for my daughters in the same way. So I can definitely take that advice because I I do that a lot with my wife. It's like, hey. I have to ask. I pause because I know I I wanna fix it. I'm that type of person, and I kinda just have the personality that I always wanna help someone because I always wanna I'm always in the state of, hey, how can I help you? How can I get you out of this rut? And so for her, sometimes it's just, I don't really wanna be out of the rut right now. I just kinda wanna blow off steam.

Quentarious Jones [00:11:21]: And so I I use that with my with my wife, but I never thought of using it with my 2 daughters. So that's great advice. Great advice.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:11:29]: I think the same thing. I never thought about it with my daughters. I've have had to learn to let my wife vent and let her just get it off her chest. Because you know what me, I'm like, I'm just like, what's the purpose of it? And if you still got the problem, I want the solution, but I realized that why is maybe a little different. So I say, okay, man. And then if you want me to ask, I had learned, they'll ask. Oh, you want my answer? Okay. So I get my solution there.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:11:52]: So I've that is good. I never thought about to actually apply that with my daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:56]: Now, Contreras, you meant you made the comment that one of the things you had to really work on yourself was to kinda let down your guard a bit, be a bit more vulnerable, and let out your emotions more because that's not something that comes easy for you. So talk to me about what you had to do to move in that direction because you're not the only guy that has had that issue or has that issue. But what did you have to do to start moving down that path?

Quentarious Jones [00:12:25]: I think step number 1 was first kinda just looking in the mirror and saying, this isn't healthy for you. It's not healthy for you to bottle up your emotions and not express yourself when you feel certain emotions because something that I learned in life is that God gives us emotions. And so it's not about trying to suppress the emotions all the time. It's about learning how to navigate the emotions and express them in the proper way. And so that's one of the things that I first had to come to grips with is, hey. This isn't healthy for you, and it's not gonna be good for your daughters if you're not fully engaged or with your emotions in a way to where you can properly understand them, navigate them, and then help them because they're gonna have emotions. And as they're navigating through life as they're growing, they they wanna know, okay. So how when I feel this way, if I'm angry, how to not, okay, hit someone when I'm angry or when I'm happy, how to be happy and to express being happy, like, with my smile, with my joy.

Quentarious Jones [00:13:26]: I, you know, I wanna express these things in a proper way. And so that was one way. The first thing that I had to do was just come to grips with myself to say, hey. We wanna be healthy. And then and then using that, just it kinda sounds weird, but practicing it with my family. Right? So practicing that every single day, being intentional about when I feel a certain way, being honest with it. Like, for example, I shared earlier when we was going through the time with her going to school, it was frustrating to have so many mornings where you would think that I'm doing everything right. I'm getting up earlier.

Quentarious Jones [00:14:03]: Sometimes we'll play, like, jingles in the morning to kinda get the emotions going, and then we still get to these moments where, okay, we were running late to school or it was just like a tantrum that morning. And so I had to understand that, okay, every single day is a day of practice, and it gives me an opportunity to continue to work on, hey, how can we navigate these emotions here? And so that's kind of how I did that.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:14:27]: But me, I had to do a lot of going back in digging up my past. I had a very hard dad. I mean, this man was like Joe Jackson times 10. He, you couldn't. Oh Lord. So with that, I love my dad. I love him. He was a great father.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:14:48]: But with that, I wasn't allowed to show emotion. And he never verbally said it, but that's pretty much how I took it. And so I would bottle things up and I would bottle things up. And so what I had to do was I had to learn that it's okay to show emotion. It's okay to cry. You know, a lot of, mirror. Yeah. I'm I'm a hard man.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:15:09]: No, like cry. It's okay. Like, and so able to learn how to allow my emotions to flow. Then I was better able to empathize with my wife, empathize with my girls. Okay. I know how this would make me feel so I can understand the emotion that you feel right now. Or even if I can't understand it, I at least empathize that you have this emotion right now. And so I'm going to do my best to respect that and honor that.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:15:38]: And so once I was able to unpack a lot of that stuff, and that helped me to flow better with dealing with my, you know, my my girls and my wife and things of that nature.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:47]: Now the 2 of you have known each other for a long time And the 2 of you came together just a little while back and came together to create a podcast. And I mentioned this at the beginning of the show today, the not your average girl dad podcast. Talk to me about the genesis story of this and why the 2 of you decided that you wanted to come together to have these conversations.

Quentarious Jones [00:16:09]: So it was birth from just Roski and I I'm caller Roski. We so we met in college. We we we went to Albany State University in Albany, Georgia. It's like we were meant to be bros. It was just meant to be. He he used to work at, the Subway on campus. And E fresh. And he used to sing these jingles.

Quentarious Jones [00:16:34]: He had this jingle. Every time he came in, you knew you would get a laugh and you'd get a great sub from Roski. And so we bonded on campus. We became really good friends. We was also attending the same church at the time. And from there we find out that we had some very common interests. And one of the interests that bonded us is like Christian hip hop. And so we became really tight about about that.

Quentarious Jones [00:17:00]: And from there, we just became really great friends. So how do we get to the podcast? As we continued our friendship throughout the years, we will always have these amazing conversations on the phone. It's not the goal. Like we would call each other for something quick. Like, Hey bro, I just wanna call you. See, did you hear the new new song that dropped by Lecrae or the new song from Swoop or the new song from KB? And so we would just talk about the music, but from that conversation, we would end up just talking about life and just talking about what we're learning as husbands and what we're learning in ministry. And then, eventually as he expounded, we're learning as dads. And so we share these long conversations and we'd be on the phone like 2 hours.

Quentarious Jones [00:17:41]: And then one day we was just like, I don't know. What do we just take our conversation to a podcast? And one day I just was I was driving down the road and he made a song. We made a song about this. And we was like, I was driving down the road, and then in the middle of prayer, it just hit me. The idea is just like, okay, let's start a podcast. And then we'll just take our conversations to the mic and we'll share our experiences and share different principles that we've learned and that we are learning as fathers, as husbands, as men in leadership and ministry, and just share those experiences as we continue this journey.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:18:16]: You pretty much summed it up. By all the thing, I guess what I would add was just me and Terry was really close. He became more than a friend of me. He became my brother. And so like I said, it was literally one day he was driving down the road in middle of prayer. And then he called me, he said, Hey, the Lord put it in my heart. Let's start a podcast. We didn't know it was going to be not your average girl at, but it was, he's like, let's just start a podcast.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:18:37]: Let's just share our conversation. And I said, okay. And so one of the things that I told them, I'm like, I'm not very business savvy, so I'll do what I can. But his main thing was like I said, the great content, the subject matter. And we knew that we could be a blessing to other girl dads or inspired fathers or dads period. Even you're not a girl that just dad periods or just father figures. We just wanted to put something out there to let the people know that you're doing a great job today and time is always about the negativity. It's all about what people aren't doing.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:19:08]: So we wanted to put some out there to let them know you're doing a great job. If you're showing up, that's half the battle right there. You're doing a great job. So that was the idea. And then I got an opportunity to use my creative juices. I sing, I rap, I, I write. And so I used to do jingles and that was one of the things that really connected us. He would come to subway and I'm like, subway, eat fresh, you know, welcome to subway.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:19:37]: Eat fresh. Like there was always like this larger than life moment when you came in the subway. So I was like, this is an opportunity for me to employ some of my skills. So I had to say yes.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:49]: So as you've gone along this journey, you put out some different episodes, talked about a lot of topics, some lighthearted, some heavier in nature. You know, I know that, Demetrius, you talked about at the beginning that it took you guys a long time to have your first child, and you talk about that in one of your episodes as well. So I guess in the conversations that you did have in the shows that you've put out thus far, what is your hope? What are you hoping that people are taking away from the message that you're sharing?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:20:19]: Well, my hope for me is with God, all things are possible. Our conversation is always centered around God. And actually one of my favorite episodes was that story about us having a hard time because we went through a lot and that's in life. Things are going to always be handed on the silver platter. You're going to have to work hard and you know, there's going to be ups. It's gonna be a lot of ups. It's gonna be a lot of downs. But if you keep your trust in God, that if he promised you something, it's going to come to pass.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:20:48]: So that's the main thing I would say is just that keep your trust in God and just know that with God, all things are possible and things are gonna always get better. And that's one of the many things that I would pray that somebody picks up from hearing us.

Quentarious Jones [00:21:04]: I would like for people to pick up or like for those listeners to pick up. Everything happens for a reason. We don't always understand what that reason can be, but as long as you have, in my opinion, faith, family, and the fundamentals of life always help you keep the right perspective even in the toughest times of your life. Because with Roski and his family, I believe when that was going on for them, and I I think I shared this with him, is that my wife and I, we experienced a miscarriage at one point before Kalani was born. And this was before he and his wife went down the path of experiencing their journey. And when we went through that, it was like an opportunity for me to share with him. Hey. If God has promised you something that is gonna come to pass.

Quentarious Jones [00:21:57]: And at that time, I'm not thinking that, hey, this is gonna be something that Rosie's going through or someone else, but you learn that everything happens for a reason. Even some of the things that can bring us disappointment, some of the situations that can bring us some hurt, some pain. But in some of that hurt, that pain, you can still receive joy. He can replace your morning into dancing and, you know, your darkness into light. And so I just want listeners and those that come to the podcast or come to hear anything from us to know that God is consistently good and that if you maintain your faith, always trust in the fact that he is good and that he knows best, that all things will work together for your good.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:40]: So talk to me about the future of the podcast. I know it's been a little bit of time since you last posted, but what's gonna be coming in the future?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:22:46]: We have season 2 coming really soon. We're working on it. We're recording, doing episodes. We have music videos coming soon, promos. We're, reaching out to start, doing speaking gigs, the whole 9 yard. But I guess in immediate future, definitely season 2, and we have a excited video coming. It's going to just once again, highlight all the fathers out there. We want to give you your flowers while you're still here on this side of heaven.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:23:21]: So, it's exciting. And it's not just his biological dads, father figures, coaches, teachers, mentors. If you just been just a mentor to anybody, we wanna say thank you, and we love you and keep doing what you were called to do.

Quentarious Jones [00:23:37]: Gearing up for season 2 and gearing up to put out that video, which and that song, which highlights just the amazing work that dads around the world are doing. And I think Roski said it earlier, in a society that is can be very critical, so much negativity that goes on or that is said, especially towards men and fathers and husbands and what we're not doing. But let's highlight, the good that is going on because there are great dads out in the world. There are great mentors and fathers that are investing in the next generation to help build a better society. Uplift, and that that's our goal for the future is this can continue to promote faith, family, and fundamentals of life, and, hopefully, it continues to inspire the next generation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:24]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:24:31]: Let's go. Ready.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:33]: In one word, what is fatherhood?

Quentarious Jones [00:24:35]: Commitment. Sacrifice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:36]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Quentarious Jones [00:24:41]: I haven't felt that yet. But sometimes I felt like I've succeeded getting them to school on time with no crying.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:24:50]: When I was able to watch all 3 of my girls and not have to call my wife once while she was out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:56]: Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:24:59]: Talk to my oldest one. But, she always tells me that she loves me. I recently went to go read to her class for it's, national readings month. And I went to go read their class. And as soon as I walked through the door, she had the biggest Kool Aid smile and it just won my heart. So I don't think she say I'm a pretty good dude.

Quentarious Jones [00:25:17]: I would say I believe they would both call me the best dad in the world. And the reason they call me the best dad in the world is because they say I give them everything. They say when we ask mommy, she always say, no, ma'am. No ham, no turkey. But when we go to daddy, he's gonna give us everything we want. So, yeah. So I would be probably the best dad in the world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:36]: So Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:25:38]: It's a lot of people. My pastor, my dad. I know growing up with a father, I never envisioned nothing else. That's what I saw. I was gonna be married. I was gonna have kids. I was gonna be a part of their life. So it's a it's a lot of people, but definitely my dad and my pastor.

Quentarious Jones [00:25:53]: For me, I would say my pastor. I would also say a lot of the men in the church community where I serve just seeing a lot of great examples of many different type of dads, from many different backgrounds and experiences. My story was a little bit different from Roskis because I didn't have a relationship with my dad early on in my life until I became a teenager, so until I was, like, 15 years old. And so we have an amazing relationship now. But that first few years of my life was always kinda searching for the perfect father figure or someone who could help lead me in those critical times of my life. And I had a great mentor, and I still talk to him. We're still great to this day. Those would be my inspirations.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:41]: Now both of you have given a number of pieces of advice today, things that everyone should be thinking about. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you wanna give to every day?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:26:50]: Continue to show up. You're not going to always know what to do. You're not going to always have the answer, but when you show up, it shows that number 1, you care and you're willing to learn.

Quentarious Jones [00:27:01]: My advice is to don't be so hard on yourself because everything is a learning experience. You're always gonna be learning something new about yourself and about your kids. If you're married, you're about your spouse. It's always an evolving door or phase of life where you're always in a a constant state of learning. And so as long as you wanna continue to have the mindset to be a student, I'm a say student of the game of life or student of the game of being a husband, being a father, just being a leader, you're always gonna learn something new. And as long as you have the right posture, you can receive those benefits. So just always have a a student part.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:38]: Now if people wanna find out more about the 2 of you, about the podcast, where should they go?

Quentarious Jones [00:27:43]: So we're on social media, so they can go to Instagram, TikTok, threads, x, you formerly known as Twitter. So you can find us even on Facebook. So you can find us at nyagd_tribe. So that's nyagd_tribe.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:04]: And we'll put links in the notes today so everybody can find that. Guys, I just wanna say thank you. Demetrius, Quinterius, thanks so much for being here today. Wish you all the best, and good luck on this journey that both of you are on to raise those amazing daughters that you wanna raise.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:28:19]: Thank you for having us once again. We're it was an honor and a privilege.

Quentarious Jones [00:28:22]: Yes. Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:23]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:21]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Dad you can be.

Dads With Daughters is part of The Dads Podcast Network, powered by DadsSupportingDads.org

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Fatherhood is often described by many as a profound journey filled with love, challenges, and personal growth. In this week's episode we speak with David Peralta, father, entrepreneurial coach and founder of The Soul Centered Founder to discuss the transformative experience of raising strong, empowered daughters. This episode delves deep into the essence of fatherhood, exploring themes such as emotional healing, the importance of presence, and the power of unconditional love.

The Initial Reaction: Finding Purpose in Fatherhood

When David Peralta first learned he would become a father to a daughter, the news had a profound emotional impact on him. This newfound responsibility and bond created a sense of purpose that reshaped his life's trajectory. Peralta's immediate reaction reflects a common sentiment among fathers—a mixture of excitement, fear, and overwhelming love.

Fatherhood: A Journey Rooted in Love

Peralta describes fatherhood with one powerful word: "love." This simple yet profound definition encapsulates the essence of his approach to parenting. For him, the ultimate goal of fatherhood is to foster an environment where love is the foundation. His daughter views him as loving, humorous, and occasionally irritable—an honest testament to the multifaceted nature of parenting.

Personal Growth and Healing: Unpacking Emotional Baggage

We delve into the necessity of personal growth in fatherhood. Peralta reflects on how his unresolved trauma initially impacted his parenting style and family dynamics. It created a cycle of conflict and violence that, unbeknownst to him, mirrored his internal struggles. Through therapy, he began to confront and process buried emotions, particularly anger, which proved to be a monumental task.

This journey towards emotional healing has been transformative for Peralta, enabling him to become a more present, understanding, and compassionate father. He emphasizes that this emotional openness is essential for cultivating a loving relationship with his children.

Communication: The Path to Understanding and Connection

One of the most significant themes discussed in the podcast is the impact of open communication within the family. David Peralta highlights that actively listening and providing a supportive space without trying to "fix" problems can profoundly enhance the father-daughter relationship. He began to embody emotional openness, choosing to participate in his daughter's emotional world rather than dictate solutions.

The Influence of Role Models: A Father's Inspiring Presence

Peralta draws inspiration from his own father's unconditional love and calm demeanor. This role model has motivated him to strive for continuous personal growth and better parenting. The admiration and lessons derived from his father underscore the value of positive role models in shaping one's approach to fatherhood.

Embracing Unconditional Love and Acceptance

According to Peralta, true success in fatherhood stems from embodying the states we want to be in, such as love, compassion, and balance. These qualities are essential for fostering personal growth and creating an environment where daughters can thrive. He advises fathers to clear any obstacles that hinder these states to achieve balance and success.

Recognizing and Addressing Internal Conflicts

Peralta provides insightful advice for fathers to recognize that many conflicts may originate within themselves. By addressing their own internal struggles, fathers can transform their approach to relationships, leading to healthier and more fulfilling connections with their daughters. This self-awareness and emotional literacy are critical components of effective parenting.

The Continuous Journey of Personal Growth

Dr. Christopher Lewis reminds listeners that personal growth is an ongoing journey. Both he and Peralta acknowledge that fatherhood presents continuous opportunities for learning and transformation. The key is to remain open to growth and seek support when necessary, which ultimately benefits both the father and the daughter.

The podcast episode concludes with a call to action for fathers to embrace emotional healing, open communication, and unconditional love in their parenting journey. David Peralta's story serves as a powerful reminder of the transformative power of love and presence in fatherhood.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to sit down with you, talk with you, and walk with you on this journey that you're on in raising those amazing daughters that you're raising and helping them to be the strong, independent women that we always talk about. And to get there, we definitely do not have to do this alone. And the show is here to help you to see that, to be able to understand that experience that and to know that there are so many other people that are walking on this path alongside you that you can reach out to. Or if you're a little shy, you don't have to reach out. You can listen and you can learn and be willing to learn along the way because none of us know everything about fatherhood. We walk into fatherhood a lot of times not knowing much at all.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:18]: At least that was my experience. And you have to learn along the way. And society does not always champion being vulnerable in that way and putting yourself out there to say, I don't know, but you're going to be a better father when you do. So it is so important to be able to do that. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests, different individuals with different experiences that can share the journey that they've been on to be able to help you in your own journey. And you can take you can pick and choose the things that you hear to be able to find those things that will work for you because not everything that's going to be shared is going to work for you. But there are many things that can work for you if you put them into place. Today, we got another great guest with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: David Peralta is with us today. And David is a father of a daughter. We're going to talk about that in his own journey as being a dad. He's also in charge of the soul centered founder. We're gonna talk about balance in life and and trying to find that holistic balance and what that looks like as a individual, what that looks like in your personal life or professional life, and how you can incorporate some of these different principles into the work that you're doing as a father as well. David, thanks so much for being here today.

David Peralta [00:02:40]: Thanks so much for having me, Christopher. It's a pleasure to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:42]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And one of the things that I love doing, 1st and foremost, is I love having the power to turn back time. So I wanna go all the way back. I wanna go back to first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?

David Peralta [00:02:55]: Well, so a lot was going on. My, my wife and I, we had gotten married 4 months prior. We had met just 4 months before that. It was very clear from the moment that we met that we had found the person that we were willing to commit to for the rest of our life, but we were not expecting to get pregnant so soon. And so when she took that pregnancy test because she missed her cycle, we were not expecting the result, but I'll never forget the moment I saw that us sign. I felt this incredible energy enter me that I knew this is the energy of the father. This is the divine fatherhood energy. Suddenly, I felt connected to it in a way that I did not know was possible.

David Peralta [00:03:39]: And I felt that this was gonna be the the start of a brand new chapter in my life, and it was this profound love that I felt for this being that was now just starting to grow inside of my wife. So it was really, an incredible blend of emotion, of profound love, of a sense of purpose and destiny, and that was just the start.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:58]: I love that. And I think each of us have that different feeling as we're moving forward. Some of us are scared out of our minds. Some of us are elated, and a lot of us are a mixture of the 2. So and then as you move forward and you get closer to that due date and then you have a heavier child, then there's a whole different set of feelings that happens that come into place. Now I talk to a lot of dads, a lot of dads that are that have gone through different phases, stages within their own fatherhood. As you think about raising your daughter, and I know your daughter's 12 now, as you think back to these years that you've been with her, what's been your biggest fear in raising a daughter in today's society?

David Peralta [00:04:40]: I've never thought about it that way in terms of my biggest fear. Well, so I have to put that a little bit differently. Yeah? Because, it's not it's not a fear that I've had in terms of raising her. It was the darkness that I had to face inside of myself that I didn't know I was gonna have to face. Yeah? The darkness that she brought up as just bringing her light into this world brought up this side of my self that I did not know was there. And so it wasn't so much a fear so much as it was the incredible challenge to have to meet that, discover that part of myself, and then learn how to overcome that part so that it wouldn't cause basically damage and destruction in in our relationship and in our life. This these unhealed wounded parts to myself that I didn't know I had been carrying.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:22]: Would you be willing to go a little deeper?

David Peralta [00:05:24]: Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]: Talk to me a little bit about what that darkness was for you and what you had to overcome as you were dealing with that.

David Peralta [00:05:32]: Yeah. Absolutely. So to go a little bit back, back to that moment, actually, when I discovered that I was father. In the moment prior to that, my wife and I had been arguing. And because we were freshly married, we weren't really sure where we were gonna be going. We were in Austria at that time with her family. Were we gonna be living in the US? What were we gonna be doing? Our plan was actually to go back to India where we had met, and we were studying meditation. And so this discovery of this pregnancy completely through our life up in the air, we had no idea what we were gonna do.

David Peralta [00:06:01]: To provide some additional context, right, for what was going on when I found out that I was gonna be a father. And so while I felt this incredible love, my wife started crying because she wasn't sure what this life together was going to be like, and all this uncertainty that she was feeling, and also some conflict that was coming up in our relationship. And so that continued during the pregnancy as we continued to get to know each other. Basically, what we discovered was that we both had a lot of wounding from our childhood that we were bringing into the relationship. We were not aware of this at this point. The way that this manifested in our relationship was fighting, blaming. Anytime one of us hurt the other, it was really that wound being triggered in each of us, and the other one was simply the catalyst for that wounding for the trigger, excuse me, for the triggering of that wound, but we didn't realize that at that time. It took us over 10 years before we got to this point of realizing this.

David Peralta [00:06:57]: So the point is this. We're arguing a lot during the pregnancy. We're fighting a lot during the pregnancy, and there's also a lot of love, but then this continues during our daughter's early years. My my wife has since so first of all, jump forward. We have reached an incredible point in our relationship, just so that people know we've gotten through the mud and we're back to this state of incredible profound love for each other. My wife ended up becoming a, a counselor for women, and during her studies what she discovered is that what happens during the pregnancy and what happens during infancy has a I mean, she didn't discover this. This is known, but we learned this together. It has a profound impact on the life of a child, that the emotions and the experiences that a child is exposed to while in the womb and any conflict and any stress that a child is exposed to in those early years, that affects how the brain is wired.

David Peralta [00:07:49]: That affects the kind of stress response that a child is gonna have for the rest of its life. Right? They're gonna come into a world that rather than feeling safe and full of unconditional love, potentially they're gonna enter a world where they feel like there's lots of conflict, there's lots of anger, there's lots of all kinds of emotions that are overwhelming for a baby. So by the time my daughter reaches 3 years old, she's grown up in this environment. There's also love, but there's definitely not an absence of negativity. That was definitely there. And so, she starts to show this behavior in very challenging ways. In other words, she starts to act out. She starts to act out and show I'm feeling all these emotions.

David Peralta [00:08:30]: They're uncomfortable for me. I cannot stand them. I can't stand all these feelings that I've been having, and so there's a lot of fighting. My wife and I are still unconscious at this time. We're still not picking this up, and so we believe that she's misbehaving. And me, in particular, I tend to get rigid in the face of that, and so I punish her even further, which just compounds the behavior because not only is she trying to express that she's uncomfortable with what she's feeling, but now I'm punishing her for it. And so it creates this spiral of conflict and eventually violence where she starts to get physically violent with us, and we still don't get it. I still don't get it until it climaxes when she's about 7 years old.

David Peralta [00:09:15]: And we've gotten so helpless and so hopeless, and we don't know what to do, and we're dealing with so much stress as a result of these challenges that we're facing with her and with each other. And then that's when we realize that we need help. That's when we realize that the resources that we've got by ourselves are not enough. We didn't have proper examples in our relationships with our parents. We didn't have anybody telling us what to do. We didn't have anybody showing us, right, the way, and certainly nobody who said it was potentially going to be like this. And so as a result of this, my daughter was basically showing, you are carrying all this conflict inside of you. You have to deal with this conflict, and you need to stop projecting it onto me.

David Peralta [00:10:01]: And so that was the start of a multi year process where we began to understand this and discover this and learn how to heal that conflict that we were carrying inside of ourselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:14]: Sounds like quite a journey and definitely something that is ongoing because you don't just heal right away. You don't just unveil what that trauma per se is. Because as you said, it was unconscious to you, that it was ingrained in your personality, ingrained in who you were, and you had to unpack all of that for yourself to be able to be that better parent that you wanted to be for your child. Now, and this might be that might have been the hardest part. But I guess one of the questions that I have is as you look back at the last 12 years for you, what's been the hardest part specifically of being a father to a daughter?

David Peralta [00:10:57]: Yeah. So the hardest part was when I realized the hardest part was getting back in touch with my sensitivity. And what I mean by that is I now recognize that I was born super sensitive, very sensitive heart, very sensitive soul, and so easily overwhelmed by negative emotions, easily overwhelmed by pain. My parents both, you know, like many parents carrying their own unresolved wounds and trauma, you know, they were carrying this pain themselves, and so it was just too much for me as a child. And so the way that I survived that was by really shutting down parts of my heart, really shutting down my ability to feel emotion. And I didn't know that because I always saw myself as a very loving, caring person. But when I saw this anger start to come up, this was also part of the most difficult thing was I considered myself a very calm person my entire life, and it was only when my daughter really reached the peak of her behavior that I saw a level of anger and explosiveness come up in me that I did not know was in me, and it was scary for everybody. It was scary for her, it was scary for my wife, and it was scary for me.

David Peralta [00:12:07]: And so that was one of the most challenging things, but even more challenging than that was once it started to become clear that this was the root of the issue, that this pain that I was carrying was the root of the conflict with my wife and with my daughter. When I first started therapy sessions, specifically somatic experiencing therapy, and I had to start feeling the emotions that I had kept buried for so long, that was hands down the most difficult thing that I had to do because I had, at that point, like, 37, 38 plus years of having just basically shut down to these feelings. And so I remember in the beginning, it was I almost couldn't do it. It was like I could just tap into it for a millisecond, and then I felt overwhelmed, and I felt like it was too much. But I knew I had to do it because I knew that this was the only way that I was gonna develop that loving relationship that I had always envisioned. I'd always imagined myself as being a loving father. And I knew that the only way to reach that vision that I'd had for myself for so long was to go through this pain. And that was the most difficult thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:25]: So you went through this process for yourself, this process of unveiling this pain for yourself so that you could be that better father, this work that you put in, it's not always easy, it's going to definitely take time. How has it made you a better father in the end?

David Peralta [00:13:41]: It hasn't just made me a better father. It has restored me to being a human being because I had not been a human being. I had been a functioning human. I had been a surviving human. I had been, I'm getting by human, but I had not been a human being. And what I mean by that is what I feel now is a human being is able to feel everything. A human being's heart is open to every experience, positive and negative, And and and that heart is able to hold all of those experiences and and gives us a profound sense of peace, a profound sense of contentment, a profound sense of of stillness. And so once I started to experience also, like, this joy of living, of just being alive, not not even accomplishment.

David Peralta [00:14:34]: I didn't have to do anything to feel joy. I simply felt joyful once a certain level had been unblocked and uncovered. And so, of course, if I am radiating that, if I am embodying that, then that is what I am modeling for my children. And now, because I'm not carrying all of this pain that felt overwhelming, there is now space. There was never space for anybody else's feelings because I was already overwhelmed with what I was carrying. Anybody else's intense emotions? No. No space for you. You've got to stop it.

David Peralta [00:15:13]: You've got to calm down, but now there was space. So now if my daughter's having an outburst, there is much more space for me to be present for her, for me to recognize that she's in pain, for me to recognize that she needs comforting, that she needs an unconditionally loving figure as she's in the presence of expressing this pain. And this is an ongoing process. Right? I'm not completely through this, but these are the ways in which it has made me a much more present, a much more loving, a much more understanding, a much more compassionate father.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:47]: So talk to me a little bit about how you've taken all of this, all this work that you've done on yourself, and how you're helping your daughter to be able to take what you've learned to incorporate it into her own life.

David Peralta [00:16:04]: Yeah. So a lot of it, like I said, is simply embodying. Simply being this is the first thing. And then the second thing is to have completely I shouldn't say completely because I'm still in the process of doing this, but to do a way of the mister fix it model. In other words, the part of me that always felt like if there's a problem, I have to fix it. If my daughter is having a problem, I have to fix it. If my wife is having an issue, I have to fix it. Right? I have to help them fix it, and now I listen, and I give space.

David Peralta [00:16:30]: And my daughter says that she can finally talk to me, And so she shares with me a whole lot more than she did before. And so this helps her to tap into her feelings and her emotions when she's having a hard time. And this is still a struggle for her because she's also still carrying an overwhelming amount of this pain that she carried from childhood. So we're still in the process of helping her process and integrate all of that. But the point is, if from where I am, I can love her unconditionally for who she is, regardless of how she behaves, then she feels seen, she feels accepted for who she is, she feels loved for who she is not for what she does and not for how she behaves. And I have seen this bring back this light into her eyes that started to go dead during these most challenging years. And so I have seen this express I've seen this light express itself through her and help her discover a passion for theater and a passion for dance, and I see this light come out in these things, and I haven't had to do anything for that light to express itself other than to be in that light in myself, recognize that light in her, and love that light in her, and then she just naturally blossoms.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:55]: Now I know that you are really talking I mean, you're talking a bit about balance, that balance of what we do in our lives and how we find that balance, which is not always easy to find. And some would say that it's not that we can't find a true balance, that there is not a way to find that true balance. I don't know if that's true, but I think that we can work toward finding a balance. And I know that you do that. You work to try to find that equilibrium in our work life, our personal life, our full self, as you were talking about. Talk to me about how what you've learned yourself and what you've what you're doing to incorporate that into the people that you work with. And are there certain things that we can do that you and I can do on a daily basis to start this process for ourselves?

David Peralta [00:18:47]: So this to me is the essence of what we call success. In other words, I believe we have a really distorted model of success that's built on accomplishment as opposed to embodiment. I believe, true success is when we embody the states that we want to be, and that this is more important, and that this is what enables us to do what it is that we want to do. So in other words, there's a lot of people, a lot of men, a lot of fathers who have visions of businesses that they wanna create. Right? There's things that they wanna do, and there's things that they wanna accomplish, and they end up finding that there's a lot of obstacles in their way, and they struggle, and they and they spend their energy in a 1000000 different directions, and they put so much of their energy into their work to try to get it either off the ground or keep it operating, or once it's operating to get it to the next level, and so there's this profound lack of balance. So much of their energy goes to their work, and so little energy goes to the rest of their life. And what I have been discovering in my own life and through the mentors, and teachers that I've worked with is that this is a backwards approach, and that the foundation for success in what we do comes from love, and that love comes from our relationships, and that love comes from ourselves. So in other words, we have to have love for ourselves, love for who we are, and acceptance of who we are, and all these things, and then we can have love in our relationships, and that love is this empowering energy which fills us with life.

David Peralta [00:20:18]: We have love in our relationships with our spouses, and we have love with our children. That love is a creative energy. It's a creative force. So then when we have a vision for what we wanna create in this world to our business, that vision is now empowered by love. And so by being empowered by love, the act of creating that vision is so much more smooth. It's so much more in harmony, and it is so much more synchronous with the rest of life that it it doesn't just feel like I mean, I believe we are interconnected with life and with everything. The universe essentially responds to us. The universe responds to our intention, and it responds to what it is that we're trying to create.

David Peralta [00:21:03]: And it helps to create that because it's responding to that creative force that is flowing through us that love. And, so, the foundation of success is developing that love and clearing out whatever's blocking that love in our life. And, so, I would say the first step that people can take is to want to do that. In other words, to recognize that if things are out of balance, perhaps things are out of things are not necessarily out of balance in life around us, they're out of balance inside of us. And so we have to have that desire to discover how to create that balance, the desire to discover what is blocking that balance inside of us, what is blocking that love inside of us. And then once we have that desire, once we have that intention, then it's my belief and experience that life will respond, and life will start to bring to us the people that we need, the lessons that we need, the teachings that we need to discover how to unblock that, and then how to, you know, step by step continue moving forward into embodying that love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:09]: And embodying that love, like you were saying, some of some there's going to be people that there's going to be dad a dad that is listening right now that is saying, I have no clue what you're talking about. I have no clue. How do I embody that for myself? How do I embody that for my my child? What would you say to them?

David Peralta [00:22:28]: Yeah. So so what I would say is, like, where is the conflict in your life? Is the conflict with your spouse? Is the conflict with your child? Is there a specific behavior that is the core trigger of that conflict? How do you feel when that behavior, when that conflict is taking place? That's the core. So in other words, if when I'm with my daughter and she would start to really act up in a certain way, I would start to feel angry. So that was the root. So the first thing I have to do is I have to start becoming aware of that anger. I have to start feeling that anger in a healthy setting. Right? Not in a setting where I'm reacting to my daughter, but I have to later on, either with a therapist or a friend or somebody, you know, who can hold space, I have to think back on that moment when my daughter or my wife acted a certain way, and I felt angry. And then, I start to feel that anger.

David Peralta [00:23:17]: And what does that feel like? It feels hot. It feels uncomfortable. I feel full of rage. And then, once I start to tap into it enough, I start to integrate it. It doesn't it stops being suppressed. It stops being explosive. And then once I can feel that, then I can start to ask myself, what do I feel angry about? And then I can start to feel what is underneath the anger and, oh, I feel freshly sad, or I feel really hurt that when I was a child, I was not given space for who I was. I was treated this way, or I was treated that way.

David Peralta [00:23:54]: So the core is hook into what is the conflict what is the conflict in your life at the moment, and then what emotions and what inner feelings does that conflict bring up? That's where we start, and that is the road. The emotions that we feel are the path to unconditional love. Feeling those emotions leads us straight back into the heart and into love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:17]: I appreciate you sharing that because I think it is a continuum. As I said before, it is not something that is going to be a static thing, you're going to have to keep working on it. It is not something that you're going to fix in one fell swoop. So all of the things that David has talked about, as you heard, he started working on this a long time ago, and he's still working on it today. So know that if you want to make these changes for yourself, that it is not going to be a quick fix. And you're going to have to understand that and be willing to to work on it and to be able and be willing to work on it for years to come.

David Peralta [00:25:02]: I love the saying of the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:10]: I love that. Yeah. I think that it's very true. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Absolutely. In one word, what is fatherhood?

David Peralta [00:25:22]: Love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:23]: When was a time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

David Peralta [00:25:29]: When my daughter opened her heart and started sharing the pain that she had felt when she was younger, and that she was starting to feel and restore this trust in me that had been lost. Now if I was to talk to your daughter, how would she describe you as a dad?

David Peralta [00:25:43]: Hopefully funny and loving and maybe irritable. I think, I think I still have that that tendency when she when she rubs me a certain way. That's my reaction, And so I have to watch. But I believe then she would say that, yes, she has a very loving, humorous father who still needs to keep working on himself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:03]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

David Peralta [00:26:05]: Oh, my father. Absolutely. He was that unconditional love, and I never saw him get angry. No. It was not true. Once. Once. I one time saw him get angry, and he held that space for us as children even in spite of his past.

David Peralta [00:26:18]: So, yeah, definitely my father.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:20]: Now we've talked about a lot of different things. Things that you had to do to be a better father. Things that you're working with other people on to help them be better parents. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

David Peralta [00:26:34]: One piece of advice that I'd like to give to every dad is I don't know about every dad, but to people who are still in a state of conflict with others, with their wife and with their kids, to consider the possibility that the conflict is not with them, but that the conflict is inside of us, and that we are bringing conflict to the relationship rather than constantly seeing the relationships as a source of conflict.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:01]: Now, David, if people wanna find out more about you and the soul centered founder or just to get to know you better, where should they go?

David Peralta [00:27:10]: They can go to soul centered founder.com. That's the site for this organization. And if anybody's interested in just having a conversation or kinda just sharing about their experience, you can actually just book a free discovery call with me. And I'm I'm happy to talk to anybody at all about what their experience has been.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:27]: Well, David, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today, and I wish you all the best.

David Peralta [00:27:34]: Thank you so much, Christopher. Really appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:36]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dotorg. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:25]: We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.

You're the best dad you can be.

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Fatherhood is a profound journey marked by growth, challenges, and unwavering love. In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, Michigan Supreme Court Judges Michael Cavanagh andhis daughter, Megan Cavanagh, a dynamic father-daughter duo, shared their insights on navigating fatherhood, fostering strong father-daughter relationships, and excelling in male-dominated fields. Let's delve into their engaging discussion and discover the wisdom they imparted.

Michael Cavanagh: A Reflection on Responsibility

Michael Cavanagh's journey into fatherhood was met with excitement and determination. However, he also faced the daunting task of raising daughters in a society dominated by male narratives. Through his experiences, he emphasizes the pivotal role of fathers in empowering their daughters and challenging societal norms. Michael's dedication to instilling values of resilience, respect, and determination in his children serves as a guiding light for fathers navigating similar paths.

Megan Cavanagh: A Journey of Empowerment

Megan Cavanagh's narrative reflects a tale of empowerment and resilience fostered by her father's unwavering support. Encouraged to pursue male-dominated fields such as engineering and law, Megan embodies the spirit of breaking barriers and embracing challenges. Her evolution from engineering to law and eventually appellate law showcases the importance of parental guidance in empowering daughters to follow their aspirations. Megan's story exemplifies the transformative power of parental support in shaping a daughter's journey to success.

Navigating Male-Dominated Fields:

Michael Cavanagh: Guiding Through Example

Michael Cavanagh's concern over the lack of female representation in fields like law and patent law highlights the need for inclusivity and support in traditionally male-dominated areas. His emphasis on guiding daughters to pursue knowledge, seek information, and make informed decisions underscores the importance of cultivating a generation of empowered women. Michael's advocacy for encouraging daughters to study grammar and Latin intertwines with his core belief in the significance of expressing love and fostering a nurturing environment.

Megan Cavanagh: Defying Expectations

Megan Cavanagh's journey from initially pursuing a career in engineering to transitioning into law and politics showcases her defiance of societal expectations. With her father's unwavering support and guidance, Megan navigated through uncharted waters to establish a career path aligned with her passions. Her experience highlights the transformative impact of parental encouragement in breaking stereotypes and creating opportunities for daughters in traditionally male-dominated fields.

Balancing Work and Family Life:

The Evolution of Work-Life Balance

Michael Cavanagh's reflection on the evolution of work-life balance, particularly in his role as a judge, highlights the transformative impact of technology on modern parenthood. His ability to balance work commitments with quality family time, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic, underscores the importance of adaptability and resilience in nurturing familial bonds. Michael's insights shed light on the shifting landscape of parenthood and the significance of finding harmony between professional and personal spheres.

Megan Cavanagh: A Testament to Resilience

Megan Cavanagh's experience of pursuing a career in law and running for office underscores the complexities of balancing ambition with familial responsibilities. With her father's initial resistance and eventual support, Megan navigated through challenges to establish her presence in the legal and political spheres. Her journey epitomizes the spirit of resilience, determination, and familial support in overcoming obstacles and achieving personal and professional milestones.

In an engaging dialogue filled with insights and wisdom, Michael and Megan Cavanagh shed light on the transformative power of fatherhood, the significance of parental guidance, and the essence of empowering daughters in male-dominated fields. Their stories serve as testaments to the enduring bond between fathers and daughters, the importance of breaking barriers, and the resilience required to navigate through life's challenges. As we embark on our own journeys of fatherhood and empowerment, let us draw inspiration from the experiences shared by Michael and Megan Cavanagh and strive to create a nurturing and inclusive world for the daughters of tomorrow.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to be back with you again this week and to talk with you about this journey that you're on in raising your daughters to be those strong, independent women that you want them to be in their lives. And every week, I love being able to sit down with you. You know I've got 2 daughters myself, so I learn from you. I learn from our guests, and I love being able to have them on to talk about the journey that they've been on to be able to help you and give you some things to pull from to help you in this journey as well. Every week I bring you different guests, different people from different walks of life, with different experiences, had to have gone through this before you or maybe going through it at the same time. And this week, we've got 2 great guests, a father and a daughter. We don't always get to do that, and I love it when we can.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:13]: But today, we've got Michael Kavanaugh or Judge Michael Kavanaugh, I should say, that that, it wait. Let me stop it. We have Judge Michael Kavanaugh, who is a retired judge of the Michigan Supreme Court, and his daughter, Judge Megan Kavanaugh, also of the Michigan Supreme Court. And first, what was really great about this was not only talking about this journey that they've been on, but also the fact that one of the interesting things was that Megan was the first child to have joined her parent as a member of the court since 18/57. So that's a pretty amazing feat in itself. So I love that we're able to have Michael and Meaghan both here today to talk about this journey that they're both on. Thank you both for being here today.

Michael Cavanagh [00:01:56]: Good to be here.

Megan Cavanagh [00:01:57]: Thank you for having us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And, Michael, I wanna start with you. I wanna go back in time. I wanna go all the way back, all the way back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head?

Michael Cavanagh [00:02:10]: That was with Meghan's older sister. And reflecting on that, it was probably one of the brightest, most exciting moments of my life. It was our first child, and she was our first child. And she was born at 5 in the morning, and I remember leaving the hospital saying to myself, I'm gonna be the best dad in the world. I'm gonna take care of this child, and I'm gonna do everything I can to make life easier for I mean, I was really pumped. Then I got, of course, involved in my career. And truth be known, my wife took on the real heavy lifting in making the world great for our oldest child. We then had a son, and after, he arrived 2 or 4 years after that, our daughter Megan arrived.

Michael Cavanagh [00:03:19]: And the feelings were very similar when all 3 arrived. But that first one was something special. It was alright, man. Now you're a dad, and you're gonna have to quit screwing around and get serious and make sure that you have the stamina and mental fortitude to succeed and achieve what you wanna do so you can make life easier for your daughter. I'm sure many fathers on their arrival of their first daughter shared similar feeling, but it was very euphoric.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:59]: So, Michael, one of the things that I hear from a lot of dads is that in having daughters, that there is some fear that goes along with them. You've had daughters and sons, so you can kind of relate to both experiences. What was your biggest fear in raising daughters in society today?

Michael Cavanagh [00:04:14]: I guess a fear was that it was so male oriented, society was. And, you know, and this was only, what, it would have been in the, late 1960, almost 70. But dads were still the stereotypical bring home the bacon and do things like that and let mother do the child rearing. And when you're out there in the world as I was in particular in politics, I think you get a special appreciation of the current trends and moods, and I guess I just wanted and hope that she would be able, with our help, to find her way in a male dominated society.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:06]: And, Meaghan, when you hear that yeah. I mean, you've gone through your career. You've moved to into politics yourself. And as you heard your father just say, you know, he tried to do what he could to be able to help you and your sister to be able to maneuver through that male dominated society. And society's changed over the years. What do you feel that your dad did to prepare you for the road that you chose to be on in the world that you stepped into as you moved in and through your career?

Megan Cavanagh [00:05:35]: Yeah. I think when he was describing that as a concern or a fear that he had, you know, the first thing that popped into my mind was when I was deciding to go to college and where and do blood and what I'm gonna do sort of thing and getting counsel and advice from my parents and figuring these sort of things out, He was actually probably one of the strongest urgers of me going into engineering, into what is at the time less so now, but at the time, a very male dominated profession. And so I think, like, recognizing that that was sort of a concern is that he didn't pass that, to me as a reason to be cautious about it or not consider it or hold back from that or what have you. Instead, it was do this. And in fact, the fact that there aren't that many or there weren't that many women in engineering is something that you should sort of capitalize on and embrace. And it's really interesting because I I have a 17 year almost 18 year old daughter who is going in the same process and is looking at engineering. And so as we're going through looking at all these different things, I just saw the field that she's looking at or the department that she's looking at and wanting to go to at the University of Michigan in engineering is 57% female student body, which is which is really amazing. But, yes, I think what he did was, obviously, he was aware of it and it was something he thought of and a concern, but he didn't pass on that concern to me.

Megan Cavanagh [00:07:08]: And he didn't suggest to me that that was a reason to be cautious about doing it. As far as going into the legal profession and then into politics or running for election. Again, that was much later. I was I ran for office in 2018, a much different, you know, time than the late eighties when I went to college. But I think that the landscape had changed a lot. It wasn't, you know, as far as women in the profession of being lawyers and being judges. We currently, on the Supreme Court, have a female majority on the court. There's 4 out of the 7 of us are women, and we're not the first.

Megan Cavanagh [00:07:47]: I think we're the 4th female majority on on court. So so I think that was that's sort of the the takeaway for me was that it was the recognition that he had that it was a male it was male dominated or concern wasn't a reason to sort of make him hesitate or suggest that I should. So I think looking back, I don't know what that dynamic would have been like. But he was like, look at this. It's gonna be you know, why don't you go into something different that's an easier path or a more traditional path or something like that? I will say I did follow his advice to go into engineering. I didn't. He actually encouraged me not to go into law and not to go into appellate law, and that's not a female thing. It was more we just have a very we have a ton of lawyers in our family.

Megan Cavanagh [00:08:41]: And I think it was the the uniqueness and and that not, as many people, let alone women, could do engineering, and that would be a good thing to do. And I didn't follow that advice in part because I think the other qualities that I inherited from him and learned from him was by that time I knew what I what was right for me and could make those sort of decisions. I knew who I was, what I enjoyed, what I was good at, what motivated and fulfilled me and that was sort of more of the motivator as opposed to, you know, him saying we have too many lawyers. We're sort of, we joke we're we're a useless family because we can't build or fix anything. Right? All we do is either cause or try and solve problems.

Michael Cavanagh [00:09:24]: I thought you were going to mention the fact that I made you diagram sentences as I did your 2 older siblings. But your teachers in high school at the conferences I attended said you had a terrific ability in math and with figures. I had a math degree in high school, but how I got through plain and solid geometry and trigonometry is beyond me. I thought I hated it. But I thought, alright. Your counselors in high school certainly said, you ought to be headed for engineering, and I would delight it when you did that. But it's it's kind of ironic that once you entered law and passed that, you landed back in a, heavily male oriented surroundings in the area of patent law. And there are very few female patent lawyers, and when they find one nowadays that has a background in science or engineering, They grabbed them up pretty quickly and slapped those golden handcuffs on them that you referred to, very impressive starting salaries and benefits.

Michael Cavanagh [00:10:44]: So it was an interesting background.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:47]: You know, one of the things that you said, Meghan, was that by the time that you decided to go to law school and then run for office, you knew who you were, you knew what you wanted, and you had a direction. And it sounds like through your life that you had support to get you to that point. What did your father do to help you to pave that way for you, to help you to see that direction that you wanted for your life?

Megan Cavanagh [00:11:14]: I think that trajectory I always when I'm talking usually to to students, be they, you know, 4th graders or law students or anything in between. I sort of use my trajectory as an example of, like, you don't know where you're gonna end up from where you are now. Right? And and there's a huge push, and I'd say this as a mother of teenagers. Right? Like, to like, you're supposed to know at 16 what you're gonna do at 55. Right? And that's just not feasible. And I use that example. I mean, because I didn't know what I wanted to do at 17. I didn't really like that sort of I didn't know.

Megan Cavanagh [00:11:50]: I listened to people who told me this is what you are good at and you should do this sort of thing, and I ended up in engineering. And I wasn't, to be honest, a huge fan of it. I worked for a couple of years. I did environmental engineering. Afterwards, I liked working in the field more than I did studying engineering, and that actually sort of made me a bit hesitant about going to law school. But I got to law school and it was really there was, like, this huge exhale. It was like, oh, this is me. They teach the way I learn.

Megan Cavanagh [00:12:19]: They think the way, that sort of thing. It really was a fit. And then when I got out, as my dad mentioned, I was like, well, I should use them both. So I'll go into patent law and I should do that and found that it it really wasn't for me. I it was so it was for me, it was sort of like learning, trying a lot of things and then finding out whether or not it wasn't tuning into that. I really like to write and research and the area of Patmos that I was in, that wasn't it. And so I ended up back in appellate law. And again, I had that same sort of, this is where I'm supposed to be.

Megan Cavanagh [00:12:51]: I think what helped me, you know, what my dad did that helped me was being supportive of that. Not always saying yes and agreeing with me on it, but helping me being open to it and helping me sort of think through it so that I could figure out what it is that is mine, you know, my thoughts and my my wants or what have you and what and to separate that out from what others say I should or shouldn't do. You know, and I think that it's part of his personality. I think it's also part of profession. He was a judge for a very long time. He was a judge on the Supreme Court for 31 years and six years before that on the Court of Appeals and, I don't know, a couple of years on the district court beforehand. But I would always people would always say, oh, your dad must hold court at the dinner table or something like that. Really, it wasn't the case.

Megan Cavanagh [00:13:39]: He was the one who would, like, sort of toss out a topic or an idea or a thought or what have you and then sit back and listen to how other people think about it and hear it, which makes sense. That's what we do on the Supreme Court. Right? We have like, cases don't get up to us unless they're tough cases and there are good arguments on both sides, and our job primarily is to hear out all of the arguments and the reasons and the thoughts and that sort of thing. But I think in doing that, I mean, he did that as a profession, and I think he did that as a dad of listening probably first rather than speaking, and it was more important for him to hear what other people had to say than for me to hear what he thought about what I was doing. So I think that's a big thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:22]: And Michael, I know earlier you said that you gave your wife a lot of kudos for helping to raise your kids and because you were in a very demanding and a very active career that pulled you in, took a lot of time. Talk to me about what you had to do to be able to maintain and build those relationships that you still wanted with your daughters, even though you had such a a public role and a role that took you away from your family as well.

Michael Cavanagh [00:14:56]: Well, I think I was particularly fortunate in that when I left the trial court, which required me to be on the bench every day, 5 days a week. The appellate court, the 8 years I spent on the Michigan Court of Appeals, and then as Megan mentioned, 32 on the Supreme Court. An awful lot of that can be done, well, 90% of it maybe. That might be an exaggeration, but it deals with reading. Endless briefs, records, former opinions, research, and, you know, it's amazing. Even during that period, I was able to bring a lot of work home and fit some of the parenting functions with the the work of the court. And I think that was a unique benefit to me to be able to do. I think so many working fathers are in their particular job or profession 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and it's my hands on.

Michael Cavanagh [00:16:10]: I think today, it's even greater with, after COVID with everything being the Zoom conference, for example. Megan's in Troy. I'm in Lansing. A lot is achievable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:25]: A lot is definitely achievable now where you couldn't have that in so many ways before COVID. So you're definitely right in that regard. Now, Meaghan, I I would I know that you said that your dad, when you said that you wanted to go to law school, has tried to convince you not to do that, and you paved your path and ended up going in that direction. And after some years, you did decide to run for office. Talk to me about that experience for you and the experience of going to your dad to talk to him about that decision and what that was like for you?

Megan Cavanagh [00:17:01]: It's odd because it's a lot of those decisions whether to go to law school, whether to do appellate law, you know, leave patent law, do appellate law, whether to run for statewide election for the supreme court were things that he had literally done. Right? But in very different environments. Right? Like, thinking of the difference between, like, when running. I mean, he was first elected, I think, in 82. Yeah. And I was running in 2,000 and 18 and just just a tremendous difference in how elections were run, the amount of money that's required, how you reach voters, how much more sort of aware people are now about the supreme court and what it does and are engaged in that sort of thing. And it was great to have I'm incredibly fortunate. I'd say that today.

Megan Cavanagh [00:17:55]: I mean, I literally look at cases all day that he has done the same job that I did that I'm doing. Right? So and a lot of what we do obviously as a court and as the institution is it's not just what I think. It's not even just what the 7 of the current justices think. It's an institution. It's it's something, you know, sorry decisive precedent that's existed for a long time, and and I have this incredible resource, this institutional memory of somebody who has, in any kind of environment, who has done the thing that I am confronting now even if it's in a very different environment, you know, like, even something like interpersonal relationships with your colleagues or something. He I mean, I think it's so unique, and I'm so fortunate to have that experience of and that resource of being able to do that because I don't think that many people can do it. So, like, for me, it was this sort of like, oh my gosh. This is great, and I have this opportunity, and isn't this wonderful? And I'm so fortunate, but at the same time, like, having to navigate, like, well, that isn't necessarily like, when you did it, it's it's a different like, knowing what's similar and what's different now.

Megan Cavanagh [00:19:12]: Right? And sort of like what I had mentioned before of figuring out, like, what works for me or who I am and and knowing that sort of thing, I think it has helped. I need to know that difference. It's like, yes. You ran a statewide election, and you have opinions on how I should do it. Well, I might have different opinions based on this is a different time or this is my experience or people are telling me something different or that. And, again, like, it's just a knowing sort of where and what's the advice and what's eventually, it has to be my decision of of what I'm doing. And I think that that all stems from, like I said, I don't know what it would look like if his response to any of that were, well, this is how I did it. This is the only way to do it.

Megan Cavanagh [00:19:55]: Or if you're not gonna listen to my advice, then I'm gonna stop giving you my advice. Yeah. I mean, there's a 1,000 different reactions that somebody you know, that somebody in his position position could give me in that reaction instead of saying, yeah. This is how I did it. And then they said,

Megan Cavanagh [00:20:06]: and I think that was the right way.

Megan Cavanagh [00:20:07]: And I also have opinions about how I think you should do it, but I also trust that you can figure that out on your own. So so I think that's that I'm very fortunate that that was that's the response that he gives over and over whether again, whether it's getting into law in the 1st place or whether it's running for statewide election or whether it's how do you handle this difficult dynamic that you've got going on in your own chambers.

Michael Cavanagh [00:20:33]: I was just gonna say the nature of the job, I think, lends itself to forcing you to adapt to a change. You know, Michigan is unique in that all judgeships are nonpartisan. They appear on the nonpartisan ballot. But for supreme court, to get on the ballot, you have to be nominated by a political party. So you go through that process of getting nominated and then miraculously walk out the door and become nonpartisan. And it's once you are elected, then you are certainly not supposed to be partisan, and so you strive to keep your head low and stay out of partisan politics or those disputes. And for the supreme court in 8 year term, you emerge 8 years later after your first term, and I had 4 8 year terms on the court. But you emerge at the end of the term, finding that probably 70% of the players are different.

Michael Cavanagh [00:21:48]: They've died. They've retired. The people you need to contact, you know, for support for reelection, and you have to go through that process again. So I think adapting to what Meghan had to do, being different in many respects from what I had, I benefited from my past experience.

Megan Cavanagh [00:22:11]: I always say that, like, when you're running for a judge that if you're good at the running part, you're probably not a very good judge. Right? Like like, the very thing that you need to be good at to get the job is the opposite of what you need to be to be good at doing the job, which is staying out of that. You can't say this is what I think about this or this is, you know, I have these very strong opinions and this is how I would decide this. I mean, you're just you can't do that as a judge. Right? Like but it's a unique system that we have in Michigan. But it's so there's a lot of downfalls or negatives to that, but I think one of the positives, it ensures that you have some accountability to the people that you're serving, you know, and if you're just appointed or even running for retention elections or something like that way different states do it, you don't you don't have the opportunity or the need to get out and and actually see the people that are voting for you and that your decisions are affecting their lives across the state, pluses and minuses.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:09]: Now, Michael, you just talked about the fact that as you are on the court, you gotta keep your head low. You gotta understand the political dynamics around you, but try to keep out of the fray. And I'm sure that along the years on the court and in your own home, you modeled by example and allowed for your kids to learn from example. What were some of the things that you did to try to teach your kids those lessons that you were learning on the court that would help them in their lives?

Michael Cavanagh [00:23:36]: Well, that's hard to categorize. I guess I tried to keep them from being judgmental, ironically, too fast to not take a glib from social media and think that that's all there is to a question or a problem. And to try and if it's interesting enough to them to find out all they can about it before they come down one way or another with a decision. And I think that's crucial in my way of thinking to being a good judge, to trying to be as informed as possible, weighing both sides. And as Megham said, the Supreme Court, if they're doing their job correctly, is taking very gray cases. There are great arguments on both sides in most cases. Otherwise, they wouldn't be up there at the Supreme Court. So it's difficult, and it's all the more important that they be as widely informed as possible.

Megan Cavanagh [00:24:48]: Yeah. In terms I was gonna answer maybe this is where the diagramming sentences comes into. It was very big on study. He would make us diagram sentences even though we weren't required to do that in school. But I think, you know, if anything, I'm putting in the work sort of for school and doing that and a big part of, I mean, that's what makes you a good writer is knowing how to use words and things like that or taking remember you took me to the state spelling bee. I still have the dictionary behind me from when I was in 8th grade. But so the hard work sort of thing, but it's that that was what he said because that was one of the first things that came to my mind. And I remember a specific case.

Megan Cavanagh [00:25:28]: I don't want sort of go into it, but it had gotten a lot of media attention. I was in college at the time, but it was up in front of his court. It was in front of a couple of different courts, actually. But and there's a lot of media attention about it, and it was a very emotional issue. And there was definitely sort of a media narrative sort of on one side of the issue. And I remember being like any 19 or 20 year old where I knew all that I needed to know about it, and I, you know, shared that opinion with him. And his response was like, well, let's look at the other side of that. Did you know this? Did you know that? What would you think if this were part of it or what have you? And I always think of that, of we live in the gray in the Supreme Court.

Megan Cavanagh [00:26:13]: Right? And that can be a very sort of frustrating thing for us as well as sort of the perception of what we do. It's like, well, some things should just be black and white. But I have found that mostly a lot of the stuff in life or the important stuff in life is in the gray. And there are two sides to most things. But I always recall that that incident of sort of going to him or, you know, whether it was I don't even know when it was, but it's saying, well, here's what this whole thing is about, you know, and here's my idea. And he's like, oh, really? Well, what did you do? What what about this sort of thing? And so that has always stuck with me. I'm like, oh, remember that.

Michael Cavanagh [00:26:51]: I I have very distinct memories of those two experiences that Meg mentioned. I still, would like to throttle the reader at that spelling bee because as soon as he pronounced the word, and she was almost at the final, as soon as he pronounced the word, I knew she was gonna get it wrong because he mispronounced it. And sure enough, she got it wrong, but she came away with that addiction hurried behind her desk, and, it was interesting. I did a great did my best anyway, trying to control her on the way home from from that experience. And the other that she mentioned about a case, I'm pretty sure I know the case to which she refers, and it was really the subject of multimedia opinions, and it arose out of the hotbed of intellectualism and liberalism in Ann Arbor. And everybody. I was chief justice at the time and was on a flight to San Francisco for a conference of chief justices. And I think I think I might have had Meghan with me at that time, but I read in the New York Times an article on the case, and it started out from a totally false premise or wrong, I should say, not false implies intention, but it was a wrong premise.

Michael Cavanagh [00:28:31]: And if you looked at that case based on the fact, you know, you had little choice but to come out a totally different way than the media which would have surmised. So that's interesting that she remembers it as I do, that those two events stick out in both our cobweb.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:54]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask 5 more questions to delve deeper, typically only into the dad's mind, but we're gonna go into both of your minds to get a little perspective here today. In one word, what is fatherhood?

Michael Cavanagh [00:29:08]: Responsibility. For me, one word.

Megan Cavanagh [00:29:10]: I say engagement.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:11]: Now, Megan, when was a time that you feel that your dad succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Megan Cavanagh [00:29:19]: There's a lot. I'm trying to think, you know, there are some of the obvious ones. You know, the first that came into my mind was not a particular event necessarily, but what came into my mind is when I had kids, when I first had my daughter. And my oldest daughter was there were some difficulty. I mean, she was it was I had difficulty getting pregnant, right, of she was IVF, and then there were some complications when she was born and she spent time in the NICU. And I guess in that regard of feeling sort of supported is where I think he definitely and just it's the most amazing thing, like, that nobody ever sort of can describe well enough, but it's the most amazing feeling to see he and my mom are they're the one people who love your kids as much as you love your own kid. Nobody else can sort of fill that role.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:12]: And, Michael, what about you? When was the time that you felt that you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Michael Cavanagh [00:30:18]: Well, I don't know. I'm not sure I've arrived at that time yet. As as I've seen all 3 of our children evolve at different stages and arrive at where they have, come to rest currently. I feel that my wife and I have been successful, and it probably is a feeling that we've experienced each step along the way that you wish the best for them. You wish that they had a better opportunity than you did. Although, I certainly can't complain about the opportunities I had, but that they took advantage of them when they appeared to fit their circumstances. Every one of those made you feel well. Alright.

Michael Cavanagh [00:31:10]: Maybe we've done something okay or something good.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:14]: Now, Megan, if I was to talk to you and your siblings, how would you describe your dad?

Megan Cavanagh [00:31:19]: I would say it's sort of almost sort of contradictory. He's this larger than life. He's incredibly accomplished. He's done so many things, so many people outside of it. I mean, this is a unique thing. It's not just not very often where you have a whole state and a whole profession and a whole whatever who every time they see you are like, do you have any idea how great your dad is? So that's a unique experience we get. So we get that, and yet at the same time, knowing that he's really one of the most humble people I know, and I think that that is partly that makes him such a it makes him a great dad, and I think it's the same thing that made him a great judge is that he has he keeps that sort of humility. And I think in deciding cases that he was always like, you know what? You know, sort of there, but for the grace of God, go I.

Megan Cavanagh [00:32:08]: Like, he has that humility of of I'm not really any different than the person that's coming in front of me with their issues. So it's like this huge sort of superstar in my world currently, but somebody who who doesn't see himself that way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:24]: And, Michael, who inspires you to be a better dad?

Michael Cavanagh [00:32:27]: Yeah. That's interesting. My father grew up on a farm outside of Ottawa, Ontario in Canada and got to maybe the 6th grade. And I think at age 16 or 17, went to, Northern Ontario to work in a logging camp and then came back. He was the youngest of 7, so he didn't have a shot at inheriting the farm and wound up around 1915 coming to Detroit to get a job at ford motor company and he, worked at ford he went back and married my mother and then they came back, and all 6 of children were born in Detroit. But he worked at Ford for 42 years. He got up to 5:30 every morning, got on that bus with his lunch bucket, and, went to the boiler plant at Ford. How he did that for that length of time is beyond me, but he did.

Michael Cavanagh [00:33:34]: And he was older when I was born. I was the last of the 6, and and my dad, I think, was about 52 when I was born. So he he wasn't able, really, to be that involved in the father's club or different events like that at the school. And he was a strong disciplinarian, but there was never a second. I think as long as any of I or any of our siblings thought about that, we didn't think he loved us. And it's interesting. He had he had trouble, I think, being emotional, although he was, but expressing him. So, like, I can never recall him telling me that he loved me, but there would never a doubt in my mind even, I mean, that the discipline was a form of love.

Michael Cavanagh [00:34:33]: And I, you know, I still get a little moist in the eyes when I think of my wedding in Toronto. And, how he came into my room before I left for their church. I was finishing up with my bow tie or something, and he came in and kinda gave me a hug, which was not real usual for him and slipped me a $100 bill. And I'll never forget that. And it's, man. That was, I realized, a big effort for him. And it's interesting because I tried to not miss opportunities to tell my 3 children that I love them. And it's interesting.

Michael Cavanagh [00:35:19]: Our kids wind up phone calls with us invariably with telling them they love us. So it was he was a great example. And as I say, he lived by example and showed me by example how a good father should be. But that was, you know, for him way back in, in the time of the father doing the work and providing the financial support and the mother doing all the raising.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:49]: Appreciate you sharing that. Now, Megan, you and your dad have both given different pieces of advice today, and I'm gonna give you both an opportunity to answer this question. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every father of a daughter?

Megan Cavanagh [00:36:03]: I think if I did, I think and I try and do this myself, so it's not just necessarily limited to dads. But I think in raising kids is and it's it's hard. I find it very hard for me to do is admit when you're wrong and apologize because there's usually some part of whatever happened that, yes, the kid had some involvement in that, but there's any sort of negative interaction. There's there's some thing on your part as well. And even if you can't sort of always get it right, at least you can show them that you recognize that you didn't get it right. And I think it's really is a gift for them because they're not always gonna get it right. They're gonna make, you know that's why you're showing them by example. It's okay to admit that you've made mistakes, but when the the actually stronger thing to do is not just to get it right in the first place, but to recognize when you get it wrong and express that you're gonna try and do it better next time.

Megan Cavanagh [00:37:00]: And that can be hard to do as a parent because a lot of times you're not supposed to get this you know, I'm not I'm supposed to have the answers. I'm supposed to do everything right. I'm supposed to get to the right place, but I think it it helps and help kids recognize that in recognizing that I am human, that they are human as well, and that they're gonna make mistakes, but that that's gonna be okay and that they can get better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:21]: What about you, Michael? What would you say in regards to a piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad of a daughter?

Michael Cavanagh [00:37:27]: I might be kind of dated, but I guess I would urge them to urge their daughters to, diagram sentences, to take Latin in, to be sure and tell them that you love them.

Megan Cavanagh [00:37:41]: Not necessarily in that order.

Michael Cavanagh [00:37:42]: Certainly, the last of that is the most important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:46]: Well, you could always say I love you in Latin, and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Michael Cavanagh [00:37:49]: I'm okay.

Megan Cavanagh [00:37:50]: I was gonna say he's gonna do it. I don't think I could even though I had some 2 years of it. Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:55]: Well, I wanted to say thank you. Thank you, Megan. Thank you, Michael, for being here today, for sharing your own journey, and for being here with us. And I wish you both the best.

Michael Cavanagh [00:38:05]: Thank you. It was enjoyable. Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:09]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them.

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In the realm of fatherhood and raising daughters, the concept of healthy masculinity plays a crucial role in shaping family dynamics and individual growth. The Dads with Daughters podcast recently featured Suraj Arshanapally, the founder of the multicultural man initiative, shedding light on the importance of cultural diversity and healthy masculinity. Through the power of storytelling and introspection, Suraj's journey encapsulates the evolution of masculinity, challenging stereotypes and encouraging authenticity in self-expression.

Cultural Diversity and Personal Identity

Suraj's upbringing in a bicultural household provided him with a unique perspective on masculinity and identity. Growing up with Indian heritage at home and American culture outside, he navigated conflicting messages about what it means to be a man. Suraj's experience with early facial hair development highlighted the impact of societal norms on self-perception. This narrative underscores the need to recognize and celebrate cultural differences in shaping individual identities and expressions of masculinity.

Reframing Healthy Masculinity

The concept of healthy masculinity, as explored by Suraj, emphasizes values that prioritize personal well-being and positive contributions to society. Through conversations with men from diverse backgrounds, Suraj discovered common themes of empathy, respect, and self-care as integral components of healthy masculinity. By rejecting outdated stereotypes and embracing introspection, men can redefine what it means to embody strength and vulnerability in their roles as fathers and community members.

Fatherhood and Active Parenting

A critical aspect of healthy masculinity lies in active fatherhood and caregiving roles. Suraj highlights the significance of modeling positive behavior and values for children, emphasizing the impact of parental actions on shaping a child's worldview. By fostering empathy, respect, and open communication within the family, fathers can cultivate a supportive environment that promotes individual growth and emotional well-being.

Empowering Future Generations

Looking towards the future, the multicultural man initiative aims to extend its reach to children, advocating for inclusive narratives and empowering young individuals to embrace their authentic selves. By promoting diverse representations of masculinity and encouraging self-expression from an early age, the initiative seeks to dismantle harmful stereotypes and foster a culture of acceptance and understanding among future generations.

Encouraging Introspection and Dialogue

In promoting healthy masculinity, fathers can play a pivotal role in fostering introspection and open dialogue with their children. By exposing children to diverse perspectives and challenging societal norms, fathers can instill values of empathy, inclusivity, and self-acceptance in the next generation. Through mindful language and supportive interactions, fathers can create a nurturing environment that nurtures individual growth and self-confidence.

The intersection of cultural diversity, healthy masculinity, and fatherhood forms a compelling narrative that promotes personal growth, understanding, and empathy. The stories shared by Suraj Arshanapally and the multicultural man initiative serve as a beacon for individuals seeking to redefine masculinity, embrace authenticity, and cultivate meaningful connections within their families and communities. Through introspection, dialogue, and a commitment to positive change, fathers can lead by example in fostering a future where healthy masculinity thrives, and individuals are empowered to be their true selves.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being able to sit down, talk to you every week, be able to bring you different people that are going to open your minds and allow you to think about things in a little bit different way because it is so important for you and I to know that we don't have to do this alone. We don't have to go about fatherhood alone. There are so many people around us that can offer support, offer resources, offer a listening ear. Whatever it may be, There are many people that have gone before us, many people that will come after us that we can help along the way as well. That's what this show is all about. It is here to help you in this journey and for you and I to learn together because, as you know, I've got 2 daughters myself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]: So it is important for me to learn and be open to learning and know that the learning doesn't stop as they get older. It continues, and we have to continue to be able to support our daughters as they get into adulthood as well. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests that can bring different perspectives for you to consider, for you to put tools in your own toolbox. And this week, we've got another great guest with us today. Suraj Arashnapalli is with us today. And Suraj is the founder of the multi cultural man, which is a initiative that uses storytelling to celebrate cultural diversity and healthy masculinity. So we're going to be talking about this journey that Siraj has been on to get people talking, to to really bring stories out into the open and to go even deeper into these stories. And I'm really excited to have him here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:03]: Suraj, thanks so much for being here today. So I guess first and foremost, I mentioned that you started the multicultural management journey back in 2023. And I guess, 1st and foremost, I'd love to turn the clock back just a little bit. I'd love to for you to get into your head a little bit about why this was important to you, why you felt the calling to try to bring these stories out into the world.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:02:37]: Started this in 2023, but I kind of wanna turn the clock a little bit more to my childhood. So my parents immigrated to the US from India. And what that did for me was gift me with 2 cultures. So I had Indian culture in my household and I had American culture everywhere else. And so I would parse out what customs and traditions and ideologies belong to each culture, but also what resonated with me. And growing up, I was really informative to my worldview and my identity, but simultaneously, I was also receiving a lot of messages around masculinity. So I would receive messages such as, like, boys and men do this, but they don't do that, or they can act this way, but they can act that way. And so I there it was really confusing trying to figure out who I could be and and how I wanted to move through the world.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:03:32]: And something that I also recognized was that a lot of these messages didn't account for my cultural identity or my cultural experience. So one one story that I can share when around the time of puberty, maybe even a little bit earlier, my experience was that I grew facial hair much earlier than my peers. And my classmates found this confusing, and I found it confusing because I didn't know. I didn't see anyone that looked like me. And so what this did was, like, my facial hair was used as a reason to other me or differentiate me, and I ended up going clean shaven for, like, the next decade of my life because I associated facial hair to be abnormal through this messaging. But then at some point in my adulthood, that messaging flipped, and essentially, facial hair was seen in I thought And I thought, you know, this is really confusing because this is not the messaging that I received earlier on. And so what it taught me was that one, are the messages around masculinity are malleable. They evolve.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:04:41]: They aren't set in stone, and so we shouldn't take them that way. And then it also taught me that we need to widen our definition of masculinity and the messaging around masculinity to encompass all types of men from different cultural backgrounds as well as people who identify with a masculine gender expression. And so I started to have conversations about this intersection with other men in my life and friends and found that my facial hair story was just one of many stories. There were, there were a lot of stories where men would tell me about a specific identity, whether it was, like, their queer identity or religious identity, or they would tell me about a specific aspect of their personality, like, they were an empathetic person or that they really connected with, you know, the the women in their lives. And those were used as reasons to differentiate them in their lives from the other men because it didn't fit into that quote, unquote norm when we think about masculinity or the messaging around masculinity. And I found this really unfortunate because I found that a lot of these aspects that the men in my life were hiding or not sharing with the world were connected to healthy masculinity and the types of values I wanted to see in the world. And so that's kind of the evolution of why I started the multicultural man. You know, these series of conversations showed me that I need to put a spotlight on these culturally diverse stories of healthy masculinity to really amplify

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:21]: It's so such an interesting And then ultimately, to widen our definition of what we see as masculine.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:26]: Every person has their own version of it in some different way, whether it's culturally based or socioeconomically based or other there's so many different factors that make a person who they are. And part of that is their understanding, their definition of what a man is. And a lot of times that comes out of, in my perspective, the men that they grow up with, the men that they see or they interact with, and they start to emulate those individuals. Going back to your story, I guess I would love to unpack that a little bit because I'm sure that around you, when you said you were talking about the facial hair story for yourself when you were growing up and coming into that facial hair when no one else in your peer group was, but the men around you did. So you saw these 2 worlds colliding for yourself. And you said it took a a number of years for you to get to a point where you accepted that. What did you have to do for yourself to come to that acceptance and be able to live an authentic life for yourself?

Suraj Arshanapally [00:07:40]: I think at the time, I didn't accept myself. I just didn't know how to navigate having facial hair amongst a lot of people. A lot of the the boys my age didn't have facial hair. The men in my life did, but that seemed like a very different age group. You know? And I remember when I was a child, one term that I was called was man child because the boys around me didn't know how to they they saw the men in their lives with facial hair or older siblings, and then they also saw me. And so that was it was confusing at the time, and it took me a while to figure out how to appreciate facial hair. I think it was the conversations that I've been having with men around culture and masculinity. So one conversation that comes to mind is a conversation I had with with this man named JJ.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:08:27]: And JJ, his religious identity is sick. And in Sikhism, facial hair is honored and respected. And he was telling me how it was so important for him to maintain his facial hair, as part of his religious identity and the cultural significance that comes with it. Through that conversation, I realized that facial hair is just a part of my experience. I'm Indian American, and my outward appearance is going to look different than others around me who aren't, who don't identify with that. And I really appreciated having that conversation with JJ because he was able to share his experience and put a spotlight on why it's something that's part of our identities that we should be able to achieve some of this services. It wasn't a dream of the military experience for yourself. As you said, you wanted to bring stories out into the open to explore healthy masculinity. Define for me healthy masculinity because every person is going to have a little bit different definition of that for themselves.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:09:35]: Yeah. I'm glad you said that because this is this is something I think about quite often. So if we were to define masculinity as maybe a list of traits and behaviors that are typically associated with boys and men, or we define it as an energy for how you move through the world, regardless of how you define it. I would say a healthier form of masculinity is that form of masculinity that prioritizes your health, but also the health and well-being of your loved ones and your community at large. And so there are a couple ways that I've been thinking about this. And one way it evolved from the conversations that I've been having with men around their understanding of healthy masculinity. And that first way is about that list of traits. So for many years, a lot of these men had received messaging around what they can and can't do or how they can and can't behave.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:10:28]: And so a lot of these messages, and I'm sure you've heard many of these, are that, you know, boys don't cry and don't be weak and boys are strong. And when you connect those with how it manifests that they need to prioritize self reliance in an unhealthy way. So if they feel like they need help, whether they're going through a mental health crisis or whether they're not feeling well physically. Whatever it may be, they may need to reach out for medical help, but they may see it as a sign of weakness, and they should just rely on themselves to get through it. And so these aspects or these messages around masculinity that many of us received when we were young weren't the best for our health because they didn't teach us how to prioritize our health. And so a lot of these men are doing are rejecting those messages by turning them into messages that they can live healthier lives. So that might mean that they express their emotions, or it might mean that they figure out ways to prioritize their mental and physical health, or they when they are in a conflict, they figure out how to navigate it peacefully, or they are active fathers in their children's lives. I resonate with this approach because I think it helps really prioritize health and well-being of oneself and the community.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:11:52]: But another the the other approach that I wanna touch on is one that I started to think about more through the conversations I've been having with other men, and it's a little bit more of an introspective approach. And it requires one to think about their values and what values are important to them and also what values they want to see exemplified and embodied in society. So one example for me is I grew up in a Hindu household. And so in Hinduism, there is one value, how I move through the world using a peaceful approach. So when conflicts arise, I channel this value and I figure out a way to mediate them in a nonviolent peaceful way. And when I think about the values that are important to me, I share them with others. And Then through these conversations, I've learned about other values that are important to other men. Brian Anderson, who I recently had a conversation with for the multicultural man is a great example.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:13:07]: I remember when Brian was speaking about his Catholic background and then his role as a father, he spoke about servant leadership being a really integral part of his being and the way he, you know, he moves through the world. And so when he, he spoke about when he thinks about the actions he takes, he for or what decisions he wants to make, he thinks about his children and the community and the impacts that it'll have on them. And that'll help him decide whether he wants to take those actions. And so I've learned a lot about the value systems that are connected to healthy masculinity as well. And and so that's a long answer, but it's the two approaches that I think about when I think about healthy masculinity. The rejection, the negative messages, but also about value system

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:52]: who is the cofounder of Gathering Together. And there's been others, other conversations that you've been collecting since 2023. What have you learned thus far? And what are you taking out of those conversations that are helping to frame your own masculinity?

Suraj Arshanapally [00:14:15]: Yeah. So it's been really interesting because I have talked to several men across cultural traditions. And I actually I recently started documenting them in 2023, but I'd been having these conversations since around 2020. And it's been fascinating to learn about the ways that men are thinking about masculinity, or they haven't thought about masculinity and learn in the moment and how their experiences while so culturally diverse and pull from different cultural values and have different experiences, we're able to share a lot of similarities. And when I ask people what it means to be, to be a man that moves through the world in a healthy way, or like what healthy masculinity means. I get a lot of the same answers. It means to be a good person. It means to approach society in a peaceful way and to care about people to be empathetic, and those are values that I really resonate with as well.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:15:18]: And so I think for me, something that I have learned from from these conversations is that I need to really do some more introspection on what is important to me. And when something feels off in terms of the socialization around masculinity, like, I feel nervous asking for help in this very particular situation, it's important for me to ask myself why and figure out what the connection to health, whether it's myself or society is. And I think that allows me to approach life in a healthier way. And so if anything, these conversations have taught me that I have a lot to learn.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:04]: Now not every dad, not every man is ready to unpack all of that for themselves. Sometimes it's going to take them some time to be able to have those internal dialogues or find someone that they're willing to talk to about these issues. From the conversations that you've had thus far and introspection that you've done yourself, are there things that men can and maybe should be doing to be able to start moving themselves in that, we'll say, right direction of being able to be introspective that can help them then to better understand themselves, which then allows them to understand themselves as fathers?

Suraj Arshanapally [00:16:49]: Yeah. You know, it's a good question. And, you know, I'm not I'm not a father yet, but I thought about this because with this being a podcast centered around fatherhood, you know, what is the connection between healthy masculinity and fatherhood? And one trait that I think about when I think about healthy masculinity is active fatherhood and caregiving. And I believe that this value or aspect of healthy masculinity is really important for us as a society. When someone becomes a father, they don't abandon their value systems. If anything, it's even stronger because now you have little ones who are watching your every move, who are learning from you, and who you were teaching as a father. And so I think if the one piece of advice that I would give, or I would give myself, I should say, who hopes to be a father, is to really think about how I want to show up in the world, whether it's my day to day actions, whether it's how I handle challenges, you know, in the household, whether minor or large. And if it's something that I would want my kids to emulate, then I can keep moving forward.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:18:01]: But if it's not, then I should probably figure out why I'm doing that and make some changes. And, and I think this is important because, so when I'm a father, I want my children to grow up in a society that values empathy, that values empathy and respect and health and peace. And I think it's important that if I want those values to show up in society, that I live out those values myself. And I'm not a father yet, so I can think about this prior, but I think anyone at any stage in their fatherhood journey can do some of this thought work and introspection there are more stories to tell and more stories to explore. What's the future of the multicultural man?

Suraj Arshanapally [00:18:52]: So right now, I have been conducting interviews like we mentioned, and that has been really fruitful, and I've learned so much. And I document those on the website. And then I also have a newsletter where I reflect on values related to healthy masculinity, and I talk about lessons I've learned from other cultural traditions. And that that I and I really enjoyed that as well. What it feels like currently is that I am speaking to adults and it feels really healing to me, specifically my inner child to share these stories. But the future, I would say, of the multicultural man is to do more work with children and really make an impact on the lives of children because I would love for these stories to help widen our definitions of what masculinity is. Ultimately, I see I would want the messaging around masculinity to allow kids to live their lives as authentically as possible from the beginning of their life to adulthood and to feel free to be and do whatever they want and to not feel limited by any identity or ability due to the messaging or the social expectations around masculinity. And while I don't know what entirely that looks like in practice for the multicultural man yet.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:20:16]: That's the direction I would love to head. But for right now, I'm finding a lot of value talking to other adults about their experiences around masculinity from different cultural traditions, but also doing a lot of introspection myself and sharing those thoughts through the newsletter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:41]: The to think about things, on a deeper level earlier and break down some of those stereotypes and explore the some of the norms and values of society. But I guess one of the things that I would ask is that there are many fathers that also have sons. And as they are raising their sons, are there things that they could be doing, should be doing to be able to encourage these type of introspections, these type of conversations to help them to find that healthy manhood for themselves that they can start at an earlier age.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:21:19]: I think some of the things that we can do is, from a very young age, introduce diversity of people, whether it's through children's book or, you know, children's television or through the stories we share with children. We want them to see the world for what it is, you know, a very culturally diverse space, where people look and identify in all different ways. And that can help from a young age, increase their empathy and towards other people and increase awareness. So that's one thing that I think fathers can do for sons, daughters, for any children. Another thing that comes to mind is, and I'll share a story. So when I was around 4th grade, I remember we had gone on a class field trip and it was to a library. And I was flipping through a book and I remember overhearing some of the adults talking and the adults were talking about our reading scores and reading speeds. And they had mentioned one of my classmates who was a girl.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:22:17]: Her reading speed was on par for what it was supposed to be for our grade. And then I had overheard them talk about mine and mine was lower. But they justified it by saying boys learn slower. And so I remember hearing that message. And, you know, I was young at the time. I didn't have the tools or the ability to contextualize what that meant, but that message stuck with me throughout my whole school experience, the shortcut or the easy way out. And I think it the shortcut or the easy way out. And I think it was unfortunate because as an adult, I now read and I do that voluntarily.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:22:57]: And I think about all the years I missed out because I didn't feel confident around reading because I thought, am I destined to just be slower at this? And that message made me feel like my reading speed was a metric I needed to use to measure my success or my, yeah, my confidence. But but it wasn't something I really needed to be measuring at all. I just needed to enjoy reading. And so the reason I'm sharing this story is because I think the messages we share with children, while inadvertently could be harmful, but, you know, obviously weren't intended that way is that messages stick with children. They pick up on what we're saying. And so we want to make sure we are using language that empowers them because at the time we may say something, but they're not gonna be able to contextualize what it actually means. And we want to ensure that they feel they feel confident in their skin and their ability to be and do whatever they want is validated and encouraged. And so I would say between these two things, sharing culturally diverse stories with children from a young age, and also being very intentional around the messaging that we use when we speak with children or speak about children because if they're listening are a couple of things that we can do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:17]: Well, Suraj, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for the work that you're doing to encourage men to explore healthy masculinity in a different way, to share their stories. And if people wanna find out more about the multicultural man, sign up for the newsletter, learn about the stories that are being captured. Where should they go?

Suraj Arshanapally [00:24:36]: So you can go to the multiculturalman.com, and you'll find all the information there. Or you can go to the multiculturalman.substack.com for the Substack newsletter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:47]: Well, again, Suraj, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing. I look forward to seeing all the stories that come in the future, and I wish you all the best.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:24:55]: Thank you. Thank you so much, Chris. And I just I just wanted to add real quick that I had listened to a previous episode of the podcast and it was the one with Sean Harvey. And I really appreciated it because you had both talked about the importance of people checking in. And I love that how it connected to healthy masculinity, because I think oftentimes when we talk about just being a man in general, but also as fathers, it's seen as a sign of weakness to ask for help and to be in community with others to want that social interaction. Isolating experience without that community. And so I just wanted to thank you for all the isolating experience without that community. And so I just wanted to thank you for all the work that you're doing around fathering together and building community for fathers.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:25:45]: So it inspires me because when I'm a father one day, it's just nice to know that you've built this community that is welcoming and open for everyone to join. And I'm excited for it. So I just wanted to say thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:59]: Well, I do appreciate it. And I've said this before, and I'll say it again for any father that's out there, any man that's out there that it is so important to be open to be I'm gonna use it again, the v word vulnerable. It's important to be vulnerable and to know that, as I said at the beginning, you don't have to do this alone. And there are so many men around you that may be struggling with the same things that you're struggling with as a father, as a man. And so often, we bottle it up and think we just have to push through, and you don't have to. You can ask for help. You can talk to someone. Put yourself out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:36]: Maybe hard at first, but once you rip off that Band Aid, it becomes easier. So, Suraj, thank you. Thank you for that. I really appreciate it. And as I said, I do wish you all the best in the journey to come.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:26:47]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:48]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dotorg. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:37]: We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat. And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.

Get out and be the world. Choose them. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.

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Fatherhood is a deeply personal and transformative journey that challenges individuals in unexpected ways. In the podcast episode of Dads with Daughters, guest Rob Rohde shares his profound experiences as a single father to five daughters, shedding light on the complexities and rewards of parenting. Through his candid reflections and discussions with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Rob's story unveils the evolution of his role as a father, from initial fears and struggles to moments of growth and resilience.

Embracing Vulnerability:

Rob Rohde's admission of neglecting self-care early on as a single father resonates with many parents who prioritize their children's well-being above their own. By falling into the trap of self-sacrifice, Rob recognized the detrimental impact it had on his mental and emotional health. Through support from his family and other men, Rob acknowledged the importance of self-care and the necessity of addressing his own needs while being a pillar of strength for his daughters.

Facing Challenges and Self-Reflection:

The journey of fatherhood is not without its challenges, as Rob Rohde discovered through personal struggles and moments of feeling lost. His realization of the fractured relationships with his older daughters prompted introspection and personal growth. By asking himself tough questions about his parenting and taking responsibility for his role in the family dynamics, Rob embarked on a path of self-discovery and improvement.

Supporting Through Loss and Trauma:

The loss of the girls' mother posed a significant emotional hurdle for Rob and his daughters, highlighting the importance of navigating grief and supporting each child's unique needs. Rob's account of being asked to identify his late wife's body by the sheriff's department illuminates the profound depth of his challenges. Despite the traumatic event, Rob's unwavering dedication to his daughters' well-being and his commitment to open communication and support illustrate the resilience of the human spirit in times of adversity.

Lessons in Connection and Bonding:

Rob Rohde's emphasis on understanding nonverbal cues and fostering meaningful connections with his daughters underscores the power of effective communication and emotional intelligence in parenting. By prioritizing quality time and creating a safe environment for his children, Rob cultivates strong bonds built on trust and understanding.

Empowering Other Fathers:

Rob's journey as a single father inspired him to become a coach for other dads facing similar struggles, providing personalized support and guidance. By acknowledging the common challenges and complexities of single fatherhood, Rob aims to customize his coaching approach to address individual needs and empower men on their parenting journey.

In the realm of fatherhood, each experience is a unique tapestry of growth, challenges, and triumphs. Rob Rohde's narrative exemplifies the transformative power of self-reflection, vulnerability, and unwavering support in navigating the complexities of parenting. As fathers embrace their roles with openness and authenticity, they pave the way for meaningful connections and enduring bonds with their children.

By sharing his story and insights, Rob Rohde inspires a community of fathers to embrace their journey with grace, resilience, and an unwavering commitment to supporting their daughters through every twist and turn of life's tapestry. Through vulnerability and self-discovery, fathers can truly become the anchors of love and support that their children need to thrive and blossom.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week and every week I love it. I'm being able to just be here to be part of this journey that you're on. And you're a part of my journey too. I have to tell you about my kids, and I love hearing about the journeys that you're on as well. And I appreciate so much that you come back every week and are able to learn and grow with all of the dads and all of the people that we have on the show. It has been an amazing ride over these last few years as we have had so many amazing guests that have shared their own journey, shared resources and more to help you be that dad that you wanna be for your daughters. And that's important because none of us have all the answers.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:07]: None of us have to do this alone. And it's important to be able to reach out to learn to be able to be a little vulnerable. Yes. I said that word vulnerability. Yes. Being a little vulnerable and knowing that you don't have to do this alone and that you can reach out. You can learn about other ways of doing things and incorporate things into your own parenting journey that makes sense. Not everything you're gonna hear on every show is gonna make sense for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: I get that. And what's most important is that you're here, you come back, you listen every week, and you're willing to learn. This week, we've got another great guest with us today. Rob Rode is with us. And Rob is a single dad of 5 daughters. Yes, I said 5 daughters. And and I said single dad. So we're gonna be talking about that as well and the journey that he has been on with his own daughters. I'm really excited to have him on and to have him share some of the journey that he's had. Rob, thanks so much for being here today.

Rob Rohde [00:02:10]: Hi, Chris. I am happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:13]: It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to talk to you about this journey that you're on. And I wanna turn the clock back in time. I know you've got 5 daughters and your oldest daughters are in their twenties. So adults now, but I wanna go all the way back because I know your oldest are twins.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]: Let's go all the way back to that first moment. That first moment when you found out that you're going to be a dad to a daughter, what was going through your head?

Rob Rohde [00:02:35]: Wow. Well, my story is actually a little bit different in that my oldest daughters were already born when I met them. So I started dating their mom when they were about 2 years old. And so I, you know, I knew at the time that I started seeing their mom that she had daughters and she had twin daughters. And so if I was gonna make a decision to continue in that relationship and to, go down that path, I I knew that being a father was part of it. And so there wasn't this single moment in time where I realized, oh, you're gonna be a dad to daughters. It was more of a kind of a a slow journey. But I will say this, one of the more kind of unique and exciting things that I get to tell my oldest 2 daughters is that I got to choose to be their dad.

Rob Rohde [00:03:22]: I got to choose them specifically. And that's something that's kind of unique and kind of exciting. And so the story is, is that after their mom and I got married, their father, biological father, was never in the picture. And so I wanted to start the process of trying to adopt them. And so after several years of going down that road, I did adopt them. And so, now they are not just mine in spirit, they are fully mine and will always be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:50]: I love that story and the journey that you're on. And and so one I guess one other question is that so you had a few years with just those 2, and then you ended up having your next daughters. And at that point, that had to have been a little bit more of a surprise because of the fact that that you didn't come into the relationship where those daughters were there. So talk to me about that reaction that you had when those next daughters came into your life.

Rob Rohde [00:04:17]: It was definitely different, but I I have to tell you, I I was so excited. We did not with my 3rd daughter now, so the one the first one that you're talking about, we did not know whether or not she was going to be a girl or a boy. So that moment came in the delivery room when she was actually born. And so, you know, when I always wanted to have a large family, and I was excited about that. And I was excited for to already have the 2 older girls and now to be kind of starting a expanding that family further. And so the moment that I saw her, it was amazing. I mean, I think the thing that a lot of a lot of people don't tell you is just they talk about the fear, and they talk about the all the worries, and they talk about the stress. But they don't talk really about how you literally fall in love with this little child in a different way, but a similar way to how you you fall in love with a spouse. And that it but it happens so quickly for some of us. And in this situation, it happened almost right away from the moment I saw her.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:23]: Now you just mentioned fear in a lot of dads that I talked to talk about that with having daughters, that there is some fear that went along with that. For you having 5 daughters. What's been your biggest fear in raising your daughters?

Rob Rohde [00:05:37]: You know, initially, my biggest fear was just simply fear that I was going to screw them up. You know, I mean, that sounds so simple and so basic, but it was just fear that maybe I wasn't equipped to connect with them in the way that they needed or to or I wasn't patient enough or, you know, I didn't really have all the tools that I needed in order to to really take care of daughters and to to be that type of dad that they needed from me. But I will say that that fear changed significantly as they started to get older. And once I became a single father, that anxiety turned into just into a complete lack of knowing whether or not I had the ability to take care of them on my own, and a feeling of overwhelm and everything that goes along with that. But now that the kids are a little bit older, the anxiety that I face or the fear that I face is more around whether or not I did the work and did the things that I needed to do when they were younger to really build that foundation for them. And whether or not they you know, every dad is going to fear for the safety of their kids, and in particular, their daughters. I think that that's just always there. And there's only so much you can do to protect them as they grow and as they become older.

Rob Rohde [00:06:57]: And, you know, your hope is that you have done the work early on so that now that they are in this stage of their life, that they have the tools that they need, they have that sense of self worth and security. They have the love for themselves and the the knowledge that they have value to offer the world. And, you know, you we really just want to raise daughters who are confident, secure, love themselves, and treat others well. And the fear is whether or not we've done our work early on in order to set them up to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:28]: Now one of the things that you just talked about was that anxiety that you felt, especially as became a single father and the questioning of your own abilities to be able to manage things to to deal with things. I'm sure that during that process, you had to do some things for yourself to be able to manage that anxiety, to get past that anxiety, to be able to then be there for your daughters. Talk to me about that journey for yourself and what you had to do to get yourself in a place where you were able to get to that point of, I'm gonna say acceptance in some ways, but but how it's in getting to that point where you were okay with where you were, but then at the same time, where you were okay with where your daughters were and able to support them for what they needed?

Rob Rohde [00:08:15]: Well, so if I'm being fully honest, I did not do a good job of taking care of myself early on. I fell into the trap that so many of us dads fall into, which is trying to be that rock of stability and trying to make sure that we're that pillar for our children. And we put all of our energy and all of our resources into making sure that they have what they need. And we almost do it, or I almost did it, almost like a badge of honor. Like, I'm gonna put my needs to the side and make sure that they have everything they need. I'm gonna always put them first. And I did that to my detriment. And I it took me time to realize that that was not helpful for them, and they were not getting the best version of me when I was trying to go that direction.

Rob Rohde [00:08:59]: So the help that I did have, though, from the beginning is I did have a strong support group within my family. I had a group of of relatives, uncles, cousins, my father, other men who were in my corner and who kept me grounded and helped provide me with the confidence that I needed and kept me kind of going in that positive direction.

Rob Rohde [00:09:19]: But there was also this period of time where I felt lost, and I felt like I was not doing what to do, and I was not taking care of myself. And when I first became a single father, I went into this trap of I was drinking single father, I went into this trap of, I was drinking too much, I wasn't sleeping well, I was not exercising, not eating healthy. I wasn't doing any of the things that I needed to do to take care of myself. And it really took those men that I, that I spoke about earlier kind of stepping into my life and saying, hey, Rob, you need to make a change, and you need to really take a look at the example you're setting for your daughters and kind of get out of this funk that you're in. And I will say that I did seek out help after that, and I I sought out help in the form of of counselors and mentors and other men, And I just leaned on people and started doing my own work. And I went through this period early on where I was just blaming everybody for everything. And I was blaming my ex wife for maybe saying derogatory things about me, and I was blaming my job for forcing me to work so much. And I was blaming my older daughters because I not appreciating everything I did because my relationship with them was fractured.

Rob Rohde [00:10:30]: And we really had a a challenge early on. And so it took me a while to get out of that place of blame and start working on myself as opposed to just pointing the finger outward and pointing the finger at others. And to me, what was this turning point for me is I was listening to the words of a host on a leadership podcast who was talking about a situation where him as a leader fell short on his goals. And he had to report up to his boss, and his boss asked him this question. He asked him, how has your leadership contributed to this result? And I heard those words, and I immediately went to my older daughters. And I turned that back at me and asked myself, how has your parenting contributed to this result? How has your parenting led to these fractured relationships that you're currently in with your older daughters? And that was a moment that really just sunk in. Those were words that just sunk in and really entered into my mind. And I remember sitting alone when I heard this, when I was listening to this.

Rob Rohde [00:11:35]: My kids were at their mom's house. I was alone in the house, up in my room, and I remember turning to the mirror and looking at myself and just being disgusted with the person that I had become, disgusted with this person who was blaming everybody else for everything and who was not taking responsibility for my own actions. And I knew I needed to make a change. And so I did. I told myself that I need to be doing things better moving forward. My daughters need a better version of me moving forward. And so to to answer your question, at that point, I became completely engrossed in learning everything I could possibly learn about leadership, parenting, raising daughters, raising sons, which I didn't even have. But just anything I could come up with that would help me be a better parent, a better leader for my family, and really kind of diving back into my own personal growth.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:29]: I appreciate you sharing that because I think that many dads can fall into that trap and fall into that situation where you, as you said, you blame yourself and you start spiraling down that and not every person is gonna be willing to admit that and to deal with it the way that you have. So I appreciate you sharing that and being willing to share that with everyone today. Now, as you were going through that, and going through your own process of being able to get to a better place to be able to then be there for your own daughters. As you go through that yourself, as you're raising your daughters, it's not always easy. There are definite hard points. What would you say has been the hardest part of being a father to a daughter?

Rob Rohde [00:13:11]: I would say the hardest part is really recognizing the uniqueness in each individual. And that was especially hard for me starting off with twins who were already 2 years old when I met them, 4 years old when we got married, and 7 when the adoption finally went final. And I kind of had it in my head that, okay, I know how I wanna be a parent. And if I do things a certain way, then it's going to be effective. If I do it from a place of love, then I do it from a place of caring, then it'll be effective. But it really wasn't. The things that I was trying were not working. And you know, there's this uniqueness when you're raising twins, in that the primary person that they turn to for recognition, for support, and for a the person that they wanna please more than anyone else in the world is not their parents.

Rob Rohde [00:14:07]: It's each other. And that's a unique dynamic that I didn't appreciate. And even as twins, they're quite different. And so, I will say the hardest thing for me was the recognizing that I needed to be a different parent to each of my children. Same level of accountability and the same level of responsibility for them, but a different person. The way that I connected with them had to be different. The way that I related with them had to be different. And the way that I showed them that I love them and I cared for them had to be different.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]: Now you and I have had a conversation at the beginning of our talk today before we went live. And one of the things you shared with me was also a really hard story and something that you had to really work with your daughters on. And that was the loss of their mother or their for your daughters. Talk to me about that and what you had to do as a father to be able to support your daughters through that loss and help them to be resilient through that period. Because at that point, they would have been in their early twenties all the way down to 8. And as you said, you need to understand how you need what the needs are for each child. But the needs of that vast age range is gonna be very different in the loss of a parent.

Rob Rohde [00:15:28]: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, that was a difficult it's an understatement to say that that was a difficult time. I was working in healthcare at the time, and I was at work in the middle of the night. And the way that all this happened after there's a series of events that happened that led up to this, without going into all of those details, I received a phone call in the middle of the night on my shift at the hospital I was working at, and it was the sheriff's department, and they were asking me to help identify the body of the girl's mom. And even though there were a lot of challenges during that time, I was not expecting this. It was a huge shock. And in that moment, after I processed my own feelings, the quick version of processing my own feelings, I was sitting in this place where I felt like I am completely ill equipped to give my daughters what they need from me in this situation. And that was the worst day of my life really up to that point.

Rob Rohde [00:16:24]: And as bad as it was for me, I knew that it was 10 times more difficult for my daughters. And that following morning, when I had to have that conversation with them and let them know what had happened, I mean, it was horrible. It was awful. And, you know, I did not know what they needed. I did not know how to support them. All I knew how to do was to share the information with them in a sensitive way and to hold them and be there for them and to let them try to process their feelings in that moment. And over time, we used all the resources that were available to us. And there were resources that the court helped provide us with, victim's advocate resources and counselors and things along those lines.

Rob Rohde [00:17:08]: But as you said, each one of the children is different. And so I it's impossible for me to talk about this story and talk about this situation as if it's in past in the past because we are still dealing with this right now today. And I suspect that the girls in particular will be dealing with this for the rest their lives, at least on a certain level. For instance, my one of my daughters who is now 21 has spent years in counseling and has gone through a lot of work and done a lot of processing and really is in a really good place. But now that she's in a serious dating relationship, there are some aspects of this that are coming back up, and it's affecting her in ways that she didn't know, she didn't know enough to work through those feelings until they actually, till she was actually in this situation. And so it's an evolving process. And so the best thing that I felt that I was able to do is to just give the girls a space where they felt comfortable and safe sharing the feelings that they were having with me, and then listening to the emotions, listening to the words that they were saying, and providing them with the support out beyond myself when I was not able to give them everything they needed. I firmly believe that one of the best things that we can do as parents, one of the most effective things we can do as parents to truly connect and bond and have life changing meaningful relationships with our kids is to take the time to study them, to legitimately, thoroughly study them, to be able to learn their nonverbal cues, to be able to learn their body language, to be able to see the expressions and know when they're feeling anxiety, to know when they're feeling a sense of of fear or despair or any emotion.

Rob Rohde [00:18:58]: And I think that we don't spend enough time doing that as parents. And the fact that I had a little bit of a foundation doing that, I think helped me in that situation, but I had doubled down on that and really tried to understand their nonverbal cues and to really get to to understand their feelings and where they were at.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:17]: I really appreciate you sharing all of that. And I can only imagine that it is ongoing and it will continue to be ongoing. And just being there, like you said, is so important to be able to help your daughters to process and work through this to be able to help them in so many ways. Now, all of these things, all these things that you've been talking about, the journey that you've been on as a single dad to be able to be the father that you wanna be for your girls has led you to becoming a coach, a coach for single fathers. And I guess I'd love to hear a little bit of that origin story and what led you down this path of wanting to coach other single fathers in the journey that they're on?

Rob Rohde [00:20:00]: Yeah, thank you for asking. I'm gonna tell a little story that kind of leads into this. And I'm kind of telling this in reverse order because I kind of told a portion of it a few minutes ago. But, you know, there was a moment shortly after the girl's mom and I separated when I was in the car driving over to pick up my daughters for their parenting time with me. And I remember as I was driving over, thoughts were racing through my head because I was struggling a little bit in my relationship with my older girls. I was working a ton. I was I would lose my patience at times. They blamed me for the divorce.

Rob Rohde [00:20:35]: They were upset at me, and the truth is they had a right to be. But I was really genuinely trying. And I remember as I pull into the driveway thinking, this time is going to be different. This time I'm going to be more patient. This time, I'm gonna put their needs before mine. This time, I'm gonna put away all my distractions and give them my undivided attention. And as these thoughts were racing through my head, I froze as my, as the girl's mom walked out to the car alone and told me that the girls, my oldest girls, were not coming over to see me. That they didn't want to spend time with me.

Rob Rohde [00:21:13]: They were upset with me. And I felt like a complete failure. My own daughters did did not wanna spend time with me. And that's when I kind of went through this place of really feeling all of this blame, putting all this blame on everyone else. And until I until over time, I realized that a very, very simple truth, which is that I can only control my reaction to situations. I cannot control other people. And I know how basic that is. I know how simple that is.

Rob Rohde [00:21:41]: But sometimes the most simple truths make the biggest differences in our lives. And that was when I really started just educating myself and learning everything I I could learn and really trying to put myself in that place. But I had these feelings of exhaustion and fear and anxiety and inadequacy, and feeling like a failure, and feeling like there was a lack of resources to support me when I was in that place in my journey. And I'm telling this because that, along with all of my experiences that I've had, have led me to this place where I decided that I really wanted to provide the support and guidance to other men who are in the situation that I was in, but really the support and guidance that I didn't have, that I wish that I had had because it would have changed my journey, and it would have sped up my recovery with my daughters, and it would have sped up my growth, and it would have just made all the difference in the world. I didn't have that. I think that there is a lack of resources out there for single fathers in particular, and I wanted to step into that place based on my experience and my knowledge. And so I went and I got my degree, and I I got my master's degree in leadership, and I've taken coaching courses, and I've done everything I could to prepare myself. But I also have this breadth of experience that is unique, that not a lot of people have.

Rob Rohde [00:23:07]: And so that is what went on inside my heart that led me to this place. And then what went on inside my mind and with my actions is is really that play wanting to step into that gap that existed so that I could help support other men. I mean, you've talked about this often on your podcast, which is that we do better when we link arms with other men. We are not meant to do this alone. We need accountability. We need mentorship. We need partnerships. And, you know, I could not agree with you more.

Rob Rohde [00:23:38]: And that is a big piece of what I what I'm trying to provide.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:42]: So you've opened yourself up to being that coach, that person that helped to other dads, as you've been going through that or yourself as you've been working with different dads, what are you learning? Oh, wow. I

Rob Rohde [00:24:00]: Oh, wow. I am learning so very much with every conversation I have. I, some of the things that I have learned is how common some of these struggles are. And also, the similarities that exist regardless of age, regardless of age of the children, regardless of socioeconomic background, we all have a lot of the same fears and we all have a lot of the same desires. I think that my goal is to really meet people where they are at on their journey. I do have a step by step process that I take Minh through, but it is 100% customizable. And so the process is about the steps that we will take, but the ability for it to be customized is starting out by really understanding what it is that that individual man father wants out of this journey. What is his end goal? What is his desire? And really starting out with just trying to help that individual figure out what it is they want, and then we can customize that process to get there.

Rob Rohde [00:25:10]: And some of the, you know, one of the first things that I do is we just walk through and see what is going on in their life that needs to be addressed right away. You know, we all have when we are in the middle of a chaotic situation, when there are fires going on in all aspects of our life, we're not in a position to really move forward and grow and learn. We need to set up some boundaries and set up our life so that we can optimize our ability to learn. And so we start by just identifying what is a single biggest issue that is holding you back right now and what are the steps we can take to address that issue. And that's the starting point. And then we go all the way through the process of talking about goals and vision and values and balance. But also, we don't lose sight of the fact that all men, in my opinion, have three things that they need in order to feel happy and successful. And those three things are deep meaningful connections, the pursuit of meaningful things, so meaningful pursuits or endeavors, and then they all need to feel alive.

Rob Rohde [00:26:23]: They need something that allows them to feel, to get excited in the morning when they wake up. And so we always, everything that we do, we keep that in mind. What are you doing to feel alive? How are your relationships? How are your connections right now with your kids or your family or whatever is important to you? And what are you pursuing that is truly meaningful, that you're proud of? And so that's kind of the underlying theme that oversees everything that we do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:51]: So you've developed this core framework, you're working with dads, you're helping to walk these dads through this journey. What's next for you in this progression of the work that you're doing?

Rob Rohde [00:27:04]: You know, the next piece that I really want to step into is the community piece. And so, I really wanna move beyond the 1 on 1 coaching and move towards more of setting up the community. And so there are 2 ways that I am looking at doing that. And one of them is through group coaching with a, potentially with a digital course as a piece of that that goes along with that. But I really want to move into the community space because I feel like that is what we need as men more than anything. That is where we will see like exponential growth and the sustainability of the changes that are made is when we have a community that is joining us in the journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:51]: Now, I always like to finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Rob Rohde [00:27:58]: I am. Let's do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:59]: In one word, what is fatherhood?

Rob Rohde [00:28:02]: Responsibility.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:03]: Now, when was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Rob Rohde [00:28:07]: So I believe strongly in family culture and I believe strongly in establishing an environment where your values and meaning is all kind of comes together and into your culture as a family. And so one moment for me was shortly after, really not that long ago, a few months ago, I was leaving my 9 to 5 job and moving into this space full time. And after I came home, after my last day of work, I came home and there was basically, like, surprise celebration for me by my kids. And, you know, along with comments such as, dad, what can we do to kinda help you out so that you can have more time to be focusing on this, so that you can have more time for your clients, so you can have more time to do this. And the reason why that was a moment of success for me as a father, my kids were teaching me a lesson. My kids were showing me what it means to have a family culture of support and unconditional love and being there for each other and prioritizing family. And especially at the age that my kids are, for them to take the time to do that meant a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:16]: Now, if I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad?

Rob Rohde [00:29:22]: Well, I mean, if you got them in a good moment versus in a tough moment, I think that they would describe me across the board as as being loving and being supportive, but also having high expectations and standards, especially in terms of how we treat other people and the values we possess and pursuing meaningful things in our life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:48]: And who inspires you to be a better dad?

Rob Rohde [00:29:50]: The man in the mirror, to be honest with you. When I look at myself in the mirror and I I ask myself at one point, what kind of man do you wanna be? What kind of father do you wanna be? I wanna be able to look back. My goal is to be able to look back at that man each day and be proud of that person that I am, be proud of that father.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:11]: You've given a lot of piece of advice, a lot of pieces of your own story that can help other dads to define a bit more of their own story. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad?

Rob Rohde [00:30:23]: So one piece of advice I'd like to give. Most people are going to tell you that the most important thing is to spend quality time with your kids. And I'm here to say that the most important thing we can do as fathers is to set aside a large quantity of time for our kids. That is what our kids need from us. Our kids need us to be present. It's in those moments when we are present and our kids feel safe and secure that quality moments happen. It's in those moments when we're just there, sitting there reading a book, but we are simply present, that they are comfortable coming to us and sharing with us the important things going on in their lives, their relationship issues that they're having, their friendships, their hopes, their dreams, their desires. We can't create a quality moment, but we can create a safe environment and be present as often as possible so that those quality moments can happen naturally.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:26]: Well, Rob, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. If people wanna find out more about you, where should they go?

Rob Rohde [00:31:34]: Yeah. The probably the best place to find out more about me is to check out my podcast, which is called The Business of Being Dad. And I release a new episode every Tuesday. You can find it on all the streaming platforms. And within the show description, there are links to my website, to my email, and also to a free resource called Thrive as a Single Dad that I would love to share with anyone who is interested.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:02]: Well, Rob, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your journey and your continuing journey with your 5 daughters. And I truly wish you all the best.

Rob Rohde [00:32:12]: Thank you so much. It's been an honor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:13]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

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