David Hale of ESPN has a fascinating, tumultuous relationship with Dabo Swinney dating back nine years when Swinney's nuclear response to a Hale question about "Clemsoning" went viral.

Hale joins the podcast to share what that relationship has been like in recent years as he communicates with Swinney both in press conferences and in more informal settings.

In a transformative time for college athletics, Hale has visited with numerous athletics directors to try to get a sense of how they might adjust to the advent of revenue sharing with athletes.

Is it naive to think a more regulated, policed NIL is actually going to work?

And what of the ACC as its profile falls even further behind in the shadow of an expanded SEC and Big Ten?

What's the best move for Clemson and Florida State? Stay in the ACC in exchange for more money and a reduced Grant of Rights agreement?

Or continue fighting like hell to get out because they can't afford falling into obscurity over the next 5-6 seasons?

Lots of questions and few concrete answers.

But Hale possesses a smarter and more informed grasp of the big picture than most anyone out there.